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Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Launches
darkwing_bmf writes "Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition rulebooks are now available. There's a review up at EuroGamer. Unfortunately, the online tools portion, D&D Insider, isn't ready yet."
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Not I. My girlfriend plays DnD with me. Although, she doesn't think pretending to be a wizard with a "Sexuality Wand" +3 is too exciting in bed...
TFA isn't a review: it's an expanded press release.
There's nothing about any of the mechanics of how the game plays, except that it's supposedly easier for newbs and balanced at all levels.
So in summary, there are...
1. New books!
2. New art!
3. Online tools!
New alignment system: Lawful Good, Good, Unaligned, Evil, Chaotic Evil.
um, no.
I would have respected the choice to get rid of alignment, but this is a boneheaded move. The problem with alignment (with bad role players anyway) is that it reinforces trite stereotypes. This just gives you fewer trite stereotypes to choose from.
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."
I've been following the /. news articles passively about the new D&D 4th ed.
But I have to ask: What is exactly news/newsworthy of this? After skimming TFA I have noticed it only seems to introduce new classes/characters/spells. Nothing about new gameplay changing rules, so isn't this just technically an expansion? Someone please tell me what new rules this adds...
Disclaimer: I am not god.
We may not be created equal
But we can be treated equal.
Considering that the average male's wand is +5 to +6, you should be able to see why she's not getting excited.
I can understand WotC wanting to release new material to milk us dry. However, I don't understand the online 'table'. Didn't they say that NWN would be something similar? It's one thing to make a pen and paper RPG. It's another to make a pen and paper MMORPG.
It is not a god that would do evil biddings, but only a mortal and its limited knowledge would let such atrocities exist
I bet she really gets hot when you put on your robe and wizard hat
I know! I was still playing 3.5, and then they came and took all my 3.5 books away and forced me to start 4.0! Those jerks!
And of course, I didn't want to be playing 3.5 either, except they'd already taken all of my earlier edition D&D books away, too!
Does she at least make you take off your wizard Hat?
I really find it a bummer that WotC is testing D&D rules and system by coming out with a new edition of the Star Wars RPG. I'd be more into the Star Wars RPG, even D&D if they just found a system that worked and stuck with it. I miss D&D 2.0 and the West End SWRPG. = /
From what I've read so far, the main good things about 4th edition that I've seen so far are:
The main complaints I have so far is that they haven't released rules in the Monster Manual for creating your own monsters from scratch and figuring out appopriate levels, and the death penalty is really almost too minor. Raise dead still takes 10 minutes to cast, and the cost does go up as your level goes up, but the penalty is only -1 to all rolls until you rest for 6 hours. I appreciate that they were trying to lessen death effects and other affects that take your character effectively out of game (Medusa gaze, Illithid mind blast, etc), but by having such a minimal penalty for death, you'd have to wonder why any fears death.
Some will certainly complain that 4th edition is too MMO like (especially like WOW), but the new character building rules do admittedly enforce character balance quite well through all levels.
No, I didn't RTFA but...
WotC fumbled the ball with software AGAIN? Who woulda thunk it? After their very sophomoric attempt at software with the 3.0 PHG and that shame for sale that they passed off as DM Tools I can only wait to (not) sink my teeth into their next software offering.
I've personally written better software for the game on a TRS-80.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Funny, I spent about $70 on new books when 3.5 came out. After about 12-15 hours of gaming, I probably broke even compared to seeing a movie with friends, buying drinks with friends, going to dinner with friends, etc. I don't play often but name something else you can do with 4-5 other people for $70 that can last hundreds of hours. I can't see how anyone could complain about their money's worth.
RPGs have always been about splatbooks. 4e really isn't any different here.
I realize there's a bit of sarcasm in your post, but I think you actually hit on a real issue. Unless you have a solid group of friends who all enjoy playing and have/will for years, you end up loosing players and picking up new ones in your playgroup. These new players often times haven't played at all before and don't have all those old rulebooks. They can borrow/share for a while, but eventually you end up with a critical mass of players who don't have a 2nd/3rd/3.5th PHB and your group is forced to upgrade.
The Cleric is no longer a required party member, as everyone can self heal.
If you looked for a cleric only because he can heal it's no wonder you've seen the those that play the class as a burden instead of a party member. You're treating clerics like most corporations treat their IT departments and you know how most IT employees feel about their companies...
Oh well, just another reason for me to dismiss WotC as the destroyers of D&D.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
I think the book keeping is different, not less overall. There a lot of things to keep track of. Who is targeted? Who is moving back and forth, Has this person been push, pulled or slid?
The hit points level off as you get higher, and contrary to your statement, then CAN be killed in one shot. A lot less likely, but it is there.
My Rogue could do d6+8+2d8
I've read those rules, and the monster creation is pretty easy to do. Bear in mind, a monster is a Monster, not another character type.
It is clearly focused on minis, and the changes make it seem more MMO like, but I don't think that's a bad thing, just a thing. They seem to have implemented it well.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Good point. For those that want to play in the competitions, they are probably out of luck, if they want to continue playing older versions. If they want to play at cons or gaming stores, I bet they can still find older version games to play in, though I'm sure they're rarer. And if they offer to DM a game, I'm sure they'll find players. There are plenty of people who won't switch, or will only switch grudgingly, who would be happy to play an older version.
And I still use Office 2000.
Thats a first level Rogue, BTW.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I have to disagree. Alignment is a mattter of philosophy. Maybe it's just that I'm an optimist, but I'd have to say the majority of humanity is of the "Good" alignment in that they generally hold helping others to be at least equal to if not slightly above personal gain. I'd also argue that they by and large have Lawful tendencies, as otherwise organized society would not work. No, there are very few paragons of these alignments, but to claim *most* people don't favor Good over Evil or Law over Chaos is just silly. Whether or not you devote your life to fighting evil isnt' a matter of alignment, it's a matter of where you get your hit dice...
Note I say this as someone who is most decidedly NOT Lawful Good...
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
That must have been awkward. No, his dwarf fighter had a really high stamina and strength score, so once he rolled well enough to seduce the elven wizard, the rolls he needed to screw her were pretty low.
I'm probably going to pass. A lot of the changes make it "not D&D" for me. It's like learning a completely new game system, like moving on to GURPS or Rolemaster or what have you. Everybody can heal themselves? That's not D&D, you're *supposed* to have a cleric (or a druid, or a bard, or a paladin, or potions) for healing. That's the whole point of the D&D flavor. You can cast magic missile infinite times per day? That's not D&D, you're *supposed* to have a limited number of zots for blasting. That's the whole point of the D&D flavor. Now, I'm not saying these are *bad* changes. I'm fully open to the idea that they may make the game flow better and so on. I'm just saying it's like moving on to a completely different game system. And I haven't been convinced why I should do that when I'm enjoying my 3.5 games highly.
The link in the summary that says "4th Edition rulebooks are now available", doesn't point to where I can go look at the 4th edition rules. The Wizards website still says that it's one day away. Could someone please post a link to where I can actually look at the new rules? Or are they not actually available yet?
Yes. Those boys will continue to be virgins. Continuing in the tradition of their fathers, and their father's fathers.
As amazing as it sounds, our gaming group, who has been meeting for about 20 years now, still use the AD&D 2.0 edition with the Skills & Powers expansion. Some of the same customization without the lethality and long battles of RoleMaster. Since we all have extensive libraries of these older 2nd edition books, the odds are not good that we'll migrate to YAEODD (Yet Another Edition Of Dungeons & Dragons).
I remember the WotC Slashdot questions regarding the release of the 4th edition. One of the questions was why we should bother to upgrade our libraries since D&D edition 5 is probably just around the corner? The answer was, and I'll paraphrase since I'm getting old, "Because it's just better." Great logic. I read that as "We need more money."
Of course, a lot of our group play World of Warcraft between games and from all indications, 4th edition is tabletop WoW.
This can't be.
Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
Jerry Holkins and Mike Krahulik of Penny-Arcade fame got together with Scott Kurtz of PvP and played D&D 4th Edition. The escapades were recorded and are being posted as Podcasts. You can subscribe to the podcasts at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/rsspodcast.xml or download the First and Second files directly.
Even people that believe in pre-destiny look both ways before crossing the street.
It kept things interesting, and made it difficult to play a character at times.
Eg, trying to be lawful when you need to bend the rules, or trying to balance things when true neutral.
But then again, within my group as we progressed from junior high to high school, we did less mindless hacking and slashing, and more role-playing.
make world, not war
See also the SRD.
I don't look at the cleric only because it can heal, but the reality is that in most 3.0-3.5 campaigns, the Cleric likely spends 50% or more of his spells on various forms of healing (either HP or ability damage/drain) because players are loath to use their healing potions outside of combat, even if they barely ever use them in combat because it provokes AoO.
The Cleric PC in the campaign I'm running even has the Touch of Healing feat (can basically heal PCs up to half HP for free) and still probably spends half or more of his spells on healing. In almost any campaign I've been in, the decision to rest is usually made because the Cleric is out of healing magic, or the wizard is >90% empty.
And suddenly, it was as if, a million geeks cried out in pain, and just as silently were silenced.
Wow, no really WoW, or World of Warcraft, I can't imagine a pen and paper game more well-dsigned to emulate a video game than this. Don't get me wrong, I love WoW, and haven't played D&D in many years, but I sincerely doubt I will ever play this edition. Damn You WotC, I defended you 8 years ago when people said you were video-gameifying D&D, and you do this, from what I can see, this is WoW in tabletop form, WoW is a lot of things, but it is no RPG, and sadly, neither is this new 4th edition of D&D. Thankfully, Dear old Gary is not here to witness this dishonoring of his memory, surely he is rolling over in his grave.
Who else thinks the 'unaligned' alignment is the new Chaotic Neutral, only worse ("I can do anything, I'm not bound by rules, or ethics or morals, YAY!")?
I can only hope that this new edition does far worse than the last forcing Hasbro to shutter WotC to spare us another insipid edition that only further tarnishes the name Dungeons & Dragons.
I never thought I would say this, but WotC, go back to making magic the addiction, and pokemon, it's all you are now, ever were, and ever will be good at.
True, but a first level character really no longer as to worry every kobold or dire rat killing them in one hit (especially the minion types), or at least, being able to take off 75% of your HP in one hit since you only started with 6. The extra HP are a plus without adding the complication of a system like SDC from the Palladium systems, although that is a good system as well.
The main things I noticed book keeping wise are as follows:
1) Effects are no longer a number of rounds, its either a) until end of next turn, b) until you save at the end of your turn or c) until end of encounter, up to 5 minutes, which are essentially the same thing.
2) You'll no longer waste 30 minutes as the spellcasters pick their new spells for the day. True wizards still pick their daily powers, but that should go quickly.
3) Thanks to minions, you have to track HP for less monsters at a time.
I think the effect tracking will be the most immediate increase in game speed. I just ran a 3.5 encounter last night with the following effects:
1) Players cast Haste and several invisibilities before combat started, as well as several buffing spells with durations in rounds.
2) BBEG had several defensive spells with duration in rounds.
3) Other monsters had an ability that caused slow, which would tempoarily negate haste for characters afflicted by it for a random number of rounds
4) BBEG was also a mind flayer, so there were mind blasts used at various times which caused stun for random number of rounds to each target.
Now, if the combat is quick, this usually isn't a problem; but this fight went for 10-13 rounds, so various effects started wearing off at various times, and with 6 PCs and 3 monsters, and people using delay actions, its really easy to lose track of which round you're actually in and what round and when in each round a given effect ends.
Last night bought the books and played RPGA with pregen'd characters, it was fun.
If (?) you like to whine, whine about this: Druids and Barbarians are GONE. Spell scrolls are gone. Grey elves are now the whipping boys of the racial soup IMHO.
The statement about clerics being nonessential is misleading. Everyone gets 6-9 healing surges. Once per encounter everyone can get back 1/4th their max HP using a standard action. But once per encounter didn't go far in our adventure. We depended heavily on our cleric and paladin for healing in every combat, in almost every round after the first. Clerics and warlords can heal you using a minor action (think swift action), it uses one of your surges that you cannot otherwise use. Paladins have at-will powers that allow them to attack and grant you temporary hit points or defense bonuses at the same time, and they can spend surges to heal you.
There are two new classes- Warlocks and Warlords. In the new scheme Wizards (formerly known as sorcerors) get the area effects and line-of-effect attacks, Warlocks get attacks that target only one foe but readily exploit its defensive weaknesses. (My Level 1 Warlock had 3 At-will powers, one vs Fortitude, one vs Reflex, and one vs Will. So I was a threat to bricks and blasters alike.) Warlords grant other nearby party members immediate actions and help them heal. Fighters get powers that combine a weapon attack with pushing foes around, knockdown, or allow others to retreat without facing attacks of opportunity. The ability to push was incredibly powerful in our adventure, our fighter just kept pushing one foe off a bridge until he expired. Rogues are a bit more combat ready and have many push abilities, they can also dash in, attack, and dash out in the same round. Rangers lose the feeble forest magic and get better attacks and increased hit chance, their armor is now feeble and IMHO they require stealth and athletics to use the two-weapon form.
Every character gets at-will powers you may use as often as you like, so we used them nearly every turn. About the only time we used a basic attack was for attacks of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity have been drastically reigned in. We fought a chainmaster who teleported through our lines to assault our back row, but he was feeble compared to the spiked chain wielders of edition 3.5.
Our prebuilt adventure was supposed to be too tough and get us all killed in order to demonstrate how death works, but our tactically disinclined party managed to beat everything with only 1 PC knocked unconscious. Our GM had specific tactical instructions in the adventure which he followed to the letter, but the instructions made the monsters throw away their terrain advantages. We defeated a dangerous exploding skeleton by pushing it off a 30' cliff. I pushed a berserker off a narrow bridge into a fast moving river, keeping it out of combat for some time. All characters and monsters are tougher, so you'll get some time to play instead of getting killed in the surprise round.
Halflings are slightly improved in that they can call for an attack against them to be rerolled. Dwarves too, they get to use a Healing Surge as a minor action, freeing up their standard action for better things. Eladrin ((tutu-wearing) grey elves) get to teleport 5 squares once per encounter sorry everyone but they are feeble. Once per combat Elves get to reroll a poor attack roll as a free action. Dragonborn get a breath weapon, but it is only as good as their Constitution- which they do not get bonuses to- and that tends to dictate their career path. Half-elves can take any 1st level at-will power from any other class and use it as an encounter power, but this isn't that powerful, they also give a bonus to Group Diplomacy, which the GM forbade us from doing, so they are feeble. In addition to the extra skill and feat of 3.5, Humans get an extra at-will power at 1st level, which can be nice if you can't decide which powers you want.
The biggest change I saw was the u
If your definition of paternity here involves reproduction via indoctrination, not insemination, then yes this is how geeks have reproduced for many, many years. And geeks reproducing in this manner don't have to expend resources on dealing with the larval stages. :)
My 229 is all the Sig I need http://thegunwiki.com/
Something about the new edition's been bothering me for a while, and I think I finally figured out what it was.
I've only looked briefly at the rules, so maybe I'm wrong in some of this.
The alignment system isn't as "broken" as it looks. The original frankly wasn't that great, and the new one isn't so very different. It looks silly at first, but only if you're used to the old one, which has been there since 1st edition. Neither one was a hard and fast stricture on how you can role-play your character, despite some people trying to make it that.
The new races actually look kind of cool. And all classes having "powers" which are about the same. For instance, some have pointed out that there's now no functional difference between a ranger firing his bow every round and a wizard firing off a magic missile every round. OK, but there's still a big difference in flavor. Although I'm going to miss them each having their own separate advantages, disadvantages, and different defenses for each.
Out of combat skills have been scaled way back, which is kind of a shame. In 3.5, you could give more information, or make the NPCs a little friendlier based on knowledge or gather information or diplomacy checks, letting a character be a diplomat or master of social situations even if the player wasn't. In 4th ed, it seems like things like this rely purely on the players skill at convincing the DM. Which eliminates all those characters whose builds were focused on their ability to resolve encounters through other than violent means.
The biggest problem, though, is the online component. Maybe if I was playing regularly again I could justify it. But I'm between groups now and will probably be that way for a while. Normally, I'd be getting Dragon magazine during times like these, but they canceled that. But it's not just extra content it looks like. Significant parts of the rules - most of the classes, powers, monsters, etc. - will be online only. Having to pay an extra $15/month to make the core rulebooks complete makes me want to not buy the core rulebooks rather than make me want to pay extra for the online content.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
In editions before 3/3.5 the Cleric's biggest value was as a healer. If you had several of them in the party, they could play different roles but if you only had one, he was mister medic and that's basically it.
3/3.5 replaced that problem with a different one. The designers were so desperate to make the class attractive, it became the most powerful class in the game with good combat skills and hit points, healing magic, and the ability to cast a whole host of effective combat spells and "buffs".
And "destroyers of D&D"? Give me a break. Ever play any of the following RPGs: Warhammer RPG, HERO, GURPS, Rifts, Rolemaster, Vampire: the Masquerade, Middle Earth RPG, or the (original) Star Wars RPG? I believe they all came out well before Wizards of the Coast produced 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons. Each has plenty of flaws, but if you've played a few of them it will give you enough perspective to see that all versions of Dungeons and Dragons have some ridiculous inconsistencies and poor design choices that interfere with or downright euthanize fun gameplay.
Wizards of the Coast didn't destroy Dungeons and Dragons. They just rearranged the problems, and I bet you're mostly angry because you have nostalgia for the particular set of problems you enjoyed when you first played some previous edition.
Thats what business is now... it used to be about making *THINGS* not *MONEY*
Now our world is just about greed and new versions.
Particularly when the average wizard *swears* it's a +12, epic wand - .
Pug
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
Or you can buy the old books on the internet. That way your group can play whatever edition of whatever RPG you want.
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
Continuing from where I left off. I have now read most of the PHB and skimmed the DMG.
Monks are gone. Rogues can use shuriken now but their weapons are further limited, e.g. they no longer get to use a rapier out of the box. Take 20 is gone.
What I said about scrolls is not quite correct. All of the PC powers I saw are pre-combat, combat, post-combat, or cantrips. Other magical effects such as Brew Potion, Cure Disease, and Knock are now called Rituals. To master a Ritual you must create or obtain a ritual book with a ritual in it, study the ritual for 8 hours, and have the Ritual Caster feat. (Wizards and Clerics have this feat at 1st level, you must be Trained in Arcana or Religion skill to have this feat.) You can then use the ritual as much as you like. Rituals can be condensed into a one-use scroll which anyone can use. You cannot use a ritual scroll to create a ritual book, but you can use your ritual book to create several ritual scrolls. A blank ritual book can be bought or made for 50gp (which is cheap in this game, we earned 50gp in our first fight.) Rituals themselves have a component cost and a market price. A ritual scroll can be created for twice these costs. Each ritual relies on a key skill, and your skill roll often determines duration or power of the effect. You cannot Take 10 on skill checks of this sort.
Each combat round you get a Standard action, a Move action, and a Minor action. You can use a Move or Minor in place of your Standard, and you can use a Minor in place of your Move. Most of your best stuff requires a Standard action, but there are some cool things you can do with a Minor action. Free actions are still around but sparse. There are now interrupts, abilities that you can automatically use in certain circumstances. You can still Ready an action for use in certain circumstances.
As I said before, although your character begins with many Healing Surges (some classes get 10 + Con modifier), the use of them is limited. Once per encounter every character may use an ability called Second Wind that uses up a Healing Surge to regain 1/4 their hit points. Most of the healing abilities force the character being healed to use a healing surge. If you drink a healing potion you must spend a healing surge. Drinking a potion is now a minor action so it doesn't interfere with combat the way it used to.
There are now three tiers of adventuring: the heroic tier L1-10, the paragon tier L11-20, and the epic tier L21-30. Generally, Paragon parties can take on adult dragons, Epic can take on ancient, and a good Heroic party could possibly beat a young lairless dragon.
There are many new feats, "new" meaning that they weren't in the 3.5 PHB but were possibly in books I never bothered to buy. In the heroic tier many of the weapons combat feats remain, power attack has been nerfed. Spell feats have been reworked by damage type- instead of getting a bonus to alteration spells you now get a bonus to, say, acid attacks.
Saving throws are different now. Gone are the days of using your best attack only to watch the GM roll dice behind his screen before triumphantly telling you the bad guy made his save again (just because he wants the fight to go on longer). Instead you have 4 defenses: AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. They all work like AC did according to how resistant you are to attacks that work against each kind. If you are using a magic effect against a foe you roll a hit roll using your Intelligence or Charisma or whatever against his Reflex or AC or whatever.
There used to be dozens of skills. Now there are 17. Some skills like Bluff are largely unchanged, others like Thievery have absorbed several of the old skills. Skills are important for gaining some feats, using powers, using rituals, getting an Epic Destiny, and other stuff.
Armor use is simply a matter of getting the armor use proficiency feats. There are 6 armor types now, in order of weakness: cloth, leather, hide, chain, scale, and plate. Fighters can't
I never played "Original D&D" (the little pamphlets that came in a box), but I remember my older relatives complaining about how they were being "forced" to buy expansion books and what a "rip off" it was.
At some point you have to accept that they're in the publication business, and they need to sell books. Eventually all the expansions make the rules too unwieldily, so they hit the reset button to put out a new edition and sell more books.
Bottom line is that it's a niche market and the only way D&D survives is squeezing blood out of the same turnip over and over.
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
What are the stats for the p0N13z?
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
Did the coastal wizards kill it with a fireball? :)
Wonderful examination of 4e. Thanks!
I bet you're mostly angry because you have nostalgia for the particular set of problems you enjoyed when you first played some previous edition.
Uh, thanks for telling me what I think but you're wrong.
I have a problem with WotC business model and what it's done to DnD. If you don't see it you must be blind because I found tons of others who've seen it and openly posted about it on this very article. Did you go around telling them what they think too?
Aside from the ability to change up any spell slot to a healing spell name me one thing that got twinked about a cleric that existed in an earlier edition.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
This series of four comments is extraordinarily detailed and informative. I would blow all my mod points in here if I had any; people should be reading this rundown from someone with obvious hands-on experience and familiarity with the new books instead of many of the one-off snide remarks, if they want to understand what's changed.
Xbox reviews.. We think they're funny.
OFF topic?? I think not. It was a pointed, yet satirical, musing of how the 4th Edition has been dumbed down specifically so it can appeal to the computer game tween crowd, which effectively removes the soul of the original game by limiting the options available to PC's. Thus, I must say screw you, jerk.
What I wouldn't do for the ability to mod "-1, Plain Wrong"