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A History of Copy Protection

GamerGirll1138 writes to tell us Next-gen has an amusing walk down memory lane with their history of copy protection. There have been some crazy schemes over the years to ensure that you paid for your software, everything from super-secret decoder rings to ridiculous document checks. "With bandwidth expanding and more and more games publishers exploring digital distribution, there's little doubt that we're entering a new phase in the history of copy protection and those who would defeat it. What's more, the demand for games as a chosen form of entertainment has never been higher. All this considered, it's impossible to believe that the cat-and-mouse game of piracy and copy protection will not reach new levels of intensity, with new technologies deployed on each side, and that some of them will surely create new hurdles for even those who simply wish to purchase and play the newest games. Ah, for the heady days of the code wheel."

536 comments

  1. I have no issues with copy protection if... by Kneo24 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it doesn't treat me like some criminal. I don't want my software to stop working because I had no internet access, and I now have to go out of my way and call technical support. I don't want my software to install root-kits on my PC because it thinks I might be a pirate. I don't want copy protection to be less useful than the pirated version. And so on and so forth.

    1. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by DriedClexler · · Score: 5, Funny

      by "so on and so forth", you of course mean a pony, right?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    2. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So you have problems with any copy protection, as long as it exclusively relies on "trust". Because of course copy-protection must raise hassels. There is some method of verifying you can run the software, and such methods can never be 100% accurate (there are lemons/shorts/ruination/reformats/internet outages/etc).

      The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. Even that would only mostly work, but it would work well enough to eliminate any other inconviences.

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    3. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 4, Interesting

      it doesn't treat me like some criminal. I don't want my software to stop working because I had no internet access I feel for the publishers as much as I do for the consumers. Without copy-protection its just too easy for people to rip-off the publishers. I think for people without net-access, phone-in activation is a decent substitute.

      I admit I didn't read the article, but for every new and ridiculous height publishers go to for copy-protection, there a new and ridiculous height that crackers go to, to break the protection and then they put the results on bittorrent.

      I think it's another case where the law woefully lags behind technology. There need to laws (urgently) protecting consumer rights when copy-protection is applied, just like there's the DMCA which helps publishers go after people who circumvent their protections (helps a little too much).

      The point being, once the law makes it clear what copy protection can and cannot do, then at least the publishers have guidelines to work with and can go to town with copy protections but still not trample on our rights.

      I especially think the "treating us as criminals" arguments is given way more weight than it's really worth. I mean, does anybody have a better idea about how to validate s/w as being legally purchased other than using some product activation mechanism (whether it works over the phone or net?)

    4. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Kneo24 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I thought some of the examples I gave would explain my position more clearly. It appears that I'm wrong.

      I realize all copy protection in some manner treats you like a criminal. I start having issues when it becomes obtrusive to my ability to play a game or use some software.

      I think STEAM is fine. Even if I have no Internet access, I can still play the game as long as I have installed the game.

      I think CD keys are fine. It comes with the game. If I lose the key, that's my fault. The game still theoretically works. The CD key also doesn't force me to go out of my way in some fashion. I don't have to pick up a phone to call someone. My keyboard is right there and all I need to do is type it in.

    5. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by moderatorrater · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, a console?

    6. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. Even that would only mostly work, but it would work well enough to eliminate any other inconviences.

      Or rather, it would make all the other inconveniences seem minor in comparison.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    7. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I don't feel for the publishers at all. Their software is an infinite good.. it doesn't make sense to charge for copies when it costs a penny to press a disk and costs a hundredth of that to offer it for download. Copying is non-destructive and game publishers lose nothing if someone downloads a game instead of going outside. Charge for matchmaking like Steam does. Provide an actual service instead of trying to keep a certain sequence of bytes a secret and hand it out selectively. That's just as offensive as 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.

    8. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      So, a console?

      Pretty much. However, a console's copy-protection serves to make it just as hard for someone to write new software as to copy old. In theory, those two don't have to go together. You could also allow far more modding than is possible on a console, content creation/sharing (lock down executables, not content). But yeah, halfway between a console and a computer.

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    9. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't feel for the publishers at all. Their software is an infinite good.. it doesn't make sense to charge for copies when it costs a penny to press a disk and costs a hundredth of that to offer it for download.

      Strongly disagreed

      It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      It doesn't matter that it's an infinite good either, and that at $10 per copy, every sale after 10 million is profits. They are still entitled to think that they are providing you with a product/service that is worth at least $10 and that is what they ask you to pay them for it. Easy example is a $50 game that you spend one month playing for about an hour a day -- it's not an unreasonable price to ask -- if a customer isn't willing to pay that price, they shouldn't buy the game. If consumers show a trend of "getting the game by hook or by crook", then the publisher will add copy-protections.

      It's really that simple -- it comes down to simple human nature. As long as there exists theft / shrink / infringement (whatever you wanna call it), there will be copy-protection. It's up to the govt./courts to step in and define our (consumer's) rights clearly to make sure our rights don't get trampled on by these copy-protection mechanisms.

    10. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by twistedcubic · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here's an example. I bought Maple 6 around five years ago. The retail box had a penguin on it, and advertised that it works on Linux. Cool. $140. No problem. So I get home, install it, and find out I have to get a license from Maple to run it. I go to the website, and later find out that the license is for Windows only. So I call Maplesoft, repeatedly, and after about a week I finally get a response. Pretty frustrating, but hey, in the grand scheme of things, a week is not a long time.

      Several months later, after swapping a bad CDROM drive and upgrading RAM, the license key no longer works. So I call Maplesoft, again, and go through the same stupid hassle. The tech FINALLY gave me a machine-agnostic license after all the other crap she tried didn't work. If I had known, I would have asked for one in the first place.

      Adding insult to injury, I had some outrageous charges on my phone bills because I didn't realize calling Canada carried "international calling" surcharges.

      In the end, I didn't find Maple as useful as I expected. So the moral: I'll be more careful about spending money on proprietary software in the future.

    11. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by rk · · Score: 1

      If that certain sequence of bytes isn't an actual service, then presumably any sequence of bytes (say a 4GB dump from /dev/urandom) is just as good?

      You're not paying 10-60 bucks for the current copy. You're helping to pay for the first copy that cost thousands to millions to make without which the current 1 cent copy simply couldn't exist.

      With that said, I think copy protection is stupid as it adds at best a slight inconvenience to those who would copy it, and oftentimes a greater than slight inconvenience to one's actual customers.

      As to people pirating software, if I ever get around to writing a game that I would charge for, I think the only thing worse than people making copies and sharing it would be people not making copies and sharing it (apologies to Oscar Wilde).

    12. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Shadow-isoHunt · · Score: 1

      I feel for the publishers as much as I do for the consumers. Without copy-protection its just too easy for people to rip-off the publishers.
      And it's not easy to goto a torrent site and grab the content which doesn't have this protection, generally before the legit content is even out on shelves?
      --
      www.isoHunt.com
    13. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Charge for matchmaking like Steam does. Provide an actual service instead of trying to keep a certain sequence of bytes a secret and hand it out selectively. This argument would suggest that a game like say Portal, which doesn't have an online gameplay component should always be free. It doesn't make sense. What if the online gaming service is provided by one company and the game by another? Each one is entitled to charge for the service in the manner they see fit, just as consumers are entitled to pick their products and services based on what pricing they think is fair.
    14. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      And it's not easy to goto a torrent site and grab the content which doesn't have this protection, generally before the legit content is even out on shelves? You're right, that's pretty easy, but don't you think publishers would respond to that with even stronger copy-protection instead of removing it altogether?
    15. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

      One of my professors at University uses MATLAB a lot. He works with DSP, so it's a daily thing for him.

      He bought a full copy, of course, but the problem is that it wouldn't run about half the time. It had something to do with the verification and requiring internet access.

      He downloaded a cracked version which worked flawlessly every time. Technically, he was using a legitimate copy, since he bought the software, but he had to d/l a pirated version to get any work done.

      Didn't Rockstar basically incorporate the no CD crack into GTAIII for the PC because it made it run so much better than the legit copy?

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    16. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 4, Funny

      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math. Oh the irony!! I meant to say 1 million copies.. so much for simple math :)
    17. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by The+Snowman · · Score: 1

      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      $10 million / $10 million == $1. Simple math :-)

      But seriously I get your point, this is an economics lesson, really. If people think your product is worth the price, regardless of the cost to make it, they will spend it. The key is finding that sweet spot and then lowering production costs to make a profit.

      The other way I look at it is this. I am not only paying for the game, but future development as well. There is a reason established companies do not need venture capital to continue to develop products: they can fund their own R&D from the profits from existing products.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
    18. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Provide an actual service instead of trying to keep a certain sequence of bytes a secret and hand it out selectively. So, basically, you're saying that we should consider all books, movies, songs, TV shows, single-player games, etc, to be public domain?

      Keeping it a secret might be ridiculous, but charging for it is reasonable.
      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    19. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math. Even simpler math would have given you $10 M / 10 M copies needing $1 per copy to break even, but I guess you're in sales and add overhead
      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    20. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      I especially think the "treating us as criminals" arguments is given way more weight than it's really worth. I mean, does anybody have a better idea about how to validate s/w as being legally purchased other than using some product activation mechanism (whether it works over the phone or net?)

      Who says we need a better idea? I'm fine with CD keys. The people who really want to pirate a copy will, regardless of how hard it is to crack. Those who never intended to pay, won't pay.

      With less copy protection, developers now have less middleware to deal with, which can be a hassle to get working. Cracked games will work better, which in turn people won't bad mouth a game for being buggy or not working properly because a crack didn't take into account some bit for said copy protection mechanism (Titan's Quest anyone?). Developers and publishers save time and money.

      I do realize there is another side to that coin. However, in the end, when you don't poo poo on your target audience, you can get a good bit of sales.

      Personally, I haven't bought many games over the years, games I wanted to play, because of the copy protection.

    21. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      I suppose there must be a hidden cost, like advertising, totaling the 90 million that prevents your math from being so, uh, simple.

    22. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Shadow-isoHunt · · Score: 2, Informative

      They do that all the time, and it's still cracked and released. Publishers are starting to realize that they're spending too much money/time/effort on copy protection, and are moving to a non-DRM mindset, see stardock for an example. I didn't even bother downloading Sins of a Solar Empire for a test run(as I usually do) - I bought it outright because of their stance on copy protection. I also know several others that did the same exact thing I did.

      --
      www.isoHunt.com
    23. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      They do that all the time, and it's still cracked and released. Publishers are starting to realize that they're spending too much money/time/effort on copy protection, and are moving to a non-DRM mindset

      Different solutions will work for different products/services on a case-by-case basis. In some cases, the publisher will decided that the cost of constantly upgrading their copy-protection to make sure the latest cracks don't work anymore is worth the added revenue it generates.

      My point is not to defend DRM -- I am with the /. crowd in hating it. My point is, it's easy to see why it exists when you pause to consider the 'other' side's perspective, and that's why it's unlikely to ever go away completely. Now that being the case, it's important for the courts or the govt. to step in and define our rights clearly so that companies don't trample on our rights while trying to protect theirs.

    24. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      I'm going to take a different stance, based upon the market, rather than the profit needs of the game publisher.

      If you make a game, and development costs are 10 million USD, and you can't sell million copies at $10, sure you're screwed. You lost money because you made a poor choice by producing a game that costs so much to develop.

      Here's the purchase deciosn:

      Purchase if [cost of official game]
      Some important notes:

      [cost of official game] includes time spent dealing with copyright protection, and is reduced by the 'good feelings' from doing-the-right-thing-and-supporting-the-publisher.
      [cost of pirated game] is reduced by 'good feelings' from sticking-it-to-the-man, and increased by any feelings of guilt; it also includes time spent evading copyright protection.

      The point of copyright protection is to increase the costs of pirating, while keeping non-cash purchase costs to a minimum.

      A little unwieldy, but the point is that game publishers should take whatever actions they can to maximize sales (in $$).

      Where your comparison breaks down is that regardless of what the game developer paid to create the game, the market will bear only what the market will bear -- purchases don't care how much it cost to produce. If you can't make a game chaeply enough to make a profit with the market as it is, you have no business making games.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    25. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your math is fuck-awful.

      Your argument also provides for copy-protection mechanisms being value-added propositions to customers (people buy programs because they perceive them as being worth the cost; people buy more programs when they have copy-protection). This is not true.

      Instead, copy-protection only increases the cost of a game to a potential user; the reason this is partially effective is because a user for has paid $50 for a program will see only a marginal increase in cost to use the program (in the form of inconvenience), while a user who has paid only bandwidth and time to acquire the program from a third-party distributor over bittorrent sees a much larger relative increase in his costs at least until the protection is circumvented. Ultimately, an increased cost is applied to everyone, and only the cash-payers tend to pay it.

      Probably the reason there is piracy is that the original value proposition of the software distributor is not an acceptable offer for some or many of the end users. Software pirates instead secure an alternative price-point for the same product through illicit redistribution methods. This accounts for why a drop in piracy does not result in an increase in sales.

      The market for software is probably much smaller than the software-producers wish. To me, this seems like a problem with the business model and marketing department, to be honest. Social reengineering to secure a market for a product which many people find to be of poor value compared to alternatives is not an effective solution; the problem is not that pirates steal, it's that some users don't see value.

      This fact isn't really a surprise: for entertainment software, at least, you're being asked to pay money to waste time (or alleviate boredom--not exactly tough competition). In a social culture quite willing to comfortably equate time and money, you're essentially asking people to pay money to lose money. If it isn't as entertaining or addictive as gambling in Vegas, it really isn't going to be that well received. This is also why the largest paid-for gaming demographic is the young, who maintain 'subsidized' lifestyles dependent on external funding sources (including college students, who usually aren't able to provide for their own lifestyle out of pocket). It almost seems like the entire market for entertainment software is predicated on a demographic able to externalize the costs of acquiring the software.

    26. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by xorbe · · Score: 1

      Because he didn't dial the international sequence, 01 + Canada code + phone number.
      He dialed a plain 1 + area code + phone number, yet it was an international call.
      So yeah, Canada is just a few area code extentions of the USA. =n)

    27. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpeskett · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've become convinced that the best protection against piracy is to get your customers to like you.

      Via Steam I've bought legit copies of Half Life 2 and the 2 episodes after having started playing a pirated copy because I decided I actually wanted to throw them some money for a quality game. I know Steam has some kind of protection, but it completely stays out of my face. I don't have to type anything in or remember to not lose a CD key... it just downloads and there it is.

      Other companies that make you jump through more hoops in order to access games that interest me less, and don't respond to criticism - instead doing the whole "faceless corporation" thing... they can go take a long walk off a short pier. Fuck them. If I can bypass their protection then I will, because I god honestly do not care about them.

      So yeah, if you want people to not pirate your games, make it so they want to pay you (There was another article I saw before about ways to add value beyond the media/content itself so that you're actually offering a better product than the free pirated copy, doing things that way works too). If you try and make it so they *have* to pay you, it won't work and they'll hate you and pirate your stuff just to spite you. The End.

    28. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

      This argument would suggest that a game like say Portal, which doesn't have an online gameplay component should always be free. There's more to steam services than matchmaking, like unlimited distribution at high speeds and steamcommunity/achievements.

      just as consumers are entitled to pick their products and services based on what pricing they think is fair That's exactly my point; the most fair price for the consumer is free, and unless the product is an actual service that costs actual money that pirates can't possibly come up with (instead of just secret data that costs nothing to copy), the consumer will get it from pirates.
    29. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by 16384 · · Score: 1

      That is one of the reasons I haven't bought Mathematica. I could buy the official version and then install the cracked one, but that also doesn't feel right. So, I'll just keep my money, and use the crappy free alternatives.

    30. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by 0xygen · · Score: 1

      Well yeah - it's interesting to see the hypervisor nearly work on 360, but for a minor detail overlooked and to see it work correctly on PS3 to date.

      It does make wonder how much the 360 is being used as a test platform for the idea of doing it to PCs for use with trusted applications.

      They could even leave you a wild bit of your PC that you still have some control over, but under the watchful eye of the hypervisor.

    31. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? Turn it around: why are you selling discs in the first place, when anyone with a CD burner can make their own? You can give them the data for approximately zero cents, and they can spend their own 10 cents on a CD-R.

      Making copies isn't the hard part; designing the game in the first place is. But they'd rather charge for copies than for the labor of game design... probably because they want to "strike it rich" if the game becomes a runaway hit. Instead of being paid for the amount of work they put in, like everyone else, they want to be paid based on the number of people who end up enjoying the game.

      If only the rest of us got that luxury! Maybe barbers would like to be paid based on the number of people who compliment you on your haircut. Maybe auto manufacturers would like to be paid based on the number of trips you take in your car, or the number of passengers you carry, instead of a fixed amount up front. But would it really be worth passing a bunch of laws enforcing those business models?

      It doesn't matter that it's an infinite good either, and that at $10 per copy, every sale after 10 million is profits. They are still entitled to think that they are providing you with a product/service that is worth at least $10 and that is what they ask you to pay them for it. And we are still entitled to think that what they're providing isn't worth $10, and find someone else who'll provide it for less - whether that's a used game store or a torrent.

      if a customer isn't willing to pay that price, they shouldn't buy the game. I'd say if a publisher isn't willing to have their work copied, they shouldn't release it. Pouting because people copied the information you made available to them is like pouting because you built an igloo in the summer and it melted. Information is copyable, and water is a liquid above 32 F: these are facts of life.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    32. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 0, Redundant

      It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math. Not to derail your point, but I'm sort of confused by your "simple math".

      If it costs me $x and I sell x copies and I charge $10 per copy, then I ultimately charge $10x for my product, netting a "profit" of $9x. That'd be 900% return on investment. Not my definition of "break even".

      Or are you missing a 0 somewhere?
      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
    33. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      That's exactly my point Well, then your point makes no sense. I'll elaborate:

      the most fair price for the consumer is free How so? Free is the most desirable but not the most fair. In fact, why not ask to be paid for purchasing the product instead? If a publisher wants to sell s/w on a per-copy basis, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 'Free' might be a possible/desirable (or even fair) price in some situations, but the blanket statement that "the most fair price for the consumer is free" is absolutely untrue.

      unless the product is an actual service that costs actual money that pirates can't possibly come up with This suggests that consumers have a right to use any product they see fit, unless there is a service bundled with it (and that too, one that can't be copied by pirates). This is a complete logical fallacy. Consumer rights are important but this isn't one of them. We do have the right to simply not buy something if we can't stomach the price. We do not have a right to pirate stuff (copy bits) if the legal price is disagreeable to us.

      instead of just secret data that costs nothing to copy Are you suggesting that publishers are just selling you some random bits that magically arranged themselves? There was a certain expense in getting the bits ordered the way they are, to make them acheive the task they do, you know.
    34. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      You mean, like a Playstation 3 ? :P

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    35. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I don't want to switch the stupid DVD every damn time I start a different game - I am a gamer, I have 20+ games installed at the moment and I play about 5 each day. It would be great for me if the games would check online. They could actually just use both: Check the DVD and if it's the wrong one or none is inserted then fall back to online checking and if there is no internet connection, then, and just then, display the message asking for the DVD or conenction to the internet. That way everyone is happy.

    36. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      Making copies isn't the hard part; designing the game in the first place is. But they'd rather charge for copies than for the labor of game design... probably because they want to "strike it rich" if the game becomes a runaway hit. Instead of being paid for the amount of work they put in, like everyone else, they want to be paid based on the number of people who end up enjoying the game.

      Then how do the developers get paid? I know, they work for a company, but that company must make money somehow. Where does that money come from if not from sales of the product?

      NO ONE will pay the $10 million to develop the game; the hope is that there are at least 1 million people willing to pony up at least $10 each to own a copy of the game...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    37. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      Copy protection isn't suppose to stop hackers from stealing the games, it's suppose the slow them down long enough for the first few weeks to sales to pass which are extremely important to a game. A good example off the top of my head is the delay between Doom 3 being sold in the US and in the UK.

      It was downloaded in the UK on bit torrent over 3 million times or something before it even came out in England, are you (not parent) seriously telling me these people weren't going to buy it when it came out if there wasn't a free download? Bullshit!

      The problem is the slashdot crowd complains constantly about the copy protection yet most people here say "I downloaded and played it but would never have bought it". Hypocrisy!

    38. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Making copies isn't the hard part; designing the game in the first place is. But they'd rather charge for copies than for the labor of game design How do you suggest they charge for "the labor of game design"?

      probably because they want to "strike it rich" if the game becomes a runaway hit. Which is completely fair. They made a runaway hit. Getting rich is their reward (and one of their incentives to make said runaway hit in the first place).

      If only the rest of us got that luxury! We do! It's called risk and reward. They risked the capital, developed a product, and reaped the rewards. If the game is a complete flop, who do you think ends up making a loss? Risk and reward my friend. You are free to take a risk and reap the rewards if it pays off. If you wanna cut hair or be a regular salaried employee (which most of us are) your rewards are commensurate with the amount of risk you took - i.e. not much.

      And we are still entitled to think that what they're providing isn't worth $10, and find someone else who'll provide it for less - whether that's a used game store or a torrent. "find someone else who'll provide it for less" -- interesting choice of words. If somebody steals a $20,000 car and 'provides' it to me for $2,000 do you suggest I buy it? Recognize your 'provider' for what he is -- a theif. Of someone else's labor. His risk (and effort) is non-existant, but his reward is sky-high. Yet you seem eager to punish the publisher for wanting to make a buck. A used-game store is a perfectly legal option for many reaons -- without going into them here, its pretty naive of you to club them in with the pirates thinking it gives your argument any weight - it doesn't.

      But would it really be worth passing a bunch of laws enforcing those business models? The laws I mentioned/suggested aren't supposed to enforce the business model. They're supposed to enforce our rights. The DRM enforces the business model. The laws should protect us from the enforcement overreaching it's purpose as most DRM-schemes currently do.

      Information is copyable, and water is a liquid above 32 F: these are facts of life. Murder is possible but illegal. I can shoplift - but it's illegal. A lot of things that are doable, are illegal. Add that to your facts of life.
    39. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by BigJClark · · Score: 1

      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      *ahem*.. that'd be $1 per disk. Don't worry, I sometimes screw it up too :)
      --

      Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
    40. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      *cough*Torrent*cough*

      You paid 140 bills for cripples and hassles? Well shit, you paid for it and you own it, so it's only fair that you be compensated for your hassle -- in the form of a free upgrade to a newer non-crippled version. *wink*

      -- A satisfied Maple user ;)

    41. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      But you miss the point. The point is not that it's free to develop games. The point is that the data is infinite in nature because you can copy it for free. So therefore trying to stop the copying is an exercise in futility. Therefore instead of offering the game for a charge they should offer the service of hosting online games at a charge or the service of tracking stats online as a charge or whatever they want to offer a service of. Yes, it won't be as profitable up front but it will be MORE profitable over time.

    42. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I went through the same shit you did. Eventually I swiped a license from a Solaris system at school. It worked fine on Linux. Yes, I'm "scum." I paid for the damn thing though.

    43. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, in the case of a console the console vendor also wants their cut of every game sold, and the copy protection helps protect that.

    44. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok then, so since you recognize that copies of the software cost nearly nothing, I'll charge you $1,500,000+ (an estimate of the cost of a software team of 30 for 3 years) for the first copy of my software, and I'll let you make as many "free" copies of it as you like. It's Idiots like you that don't understand the real cost to develop decent software that make it seem like you are being ripped off, when you really are not.

      Take 30 employees $50,000/yr for 3 years: 1.5million. (and that's really cheap employees too!)
      Add to that hardware costs (international server infrastructure alone is huge), support staff costs, facilities to house all this in, etc, etc, and you could easily hit $5m in costs without even trying.
      So, you now have a single product that cost $5million to make, and that no-one in their right mind will pay for, but that's cheap to copy.

      Now, not forgetting the limited lifetime of software (less than 5 years realistically), you simply approximate the sales figures based on earlier experience, and determine the sale price by dividing the projected sales into t he initial cost. Add on production/copying costs, distribution costs, and of course sales tax/VAT/GST and what do you have? the COST of production. Please note, there is NO profit included yet. So yes, idiot, software is an "infinite good"

    45. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      I know several shareware authors, they say that any protection more complex than a basic license key check does not make any difference in sales.

      People who buy software do not generally search for cracks/keygens.

    46. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Then how do the developers get paid? [...] NO ONE will pay the $10 million to develop the game; the hope is that there are at least 1 million people willing to pony up at least $10 each to own a copy of the game... Those people could just as easily spend their $10 before the game is released, to fund its development. Or two million people could spend $5 each, or some combination of people could spend a range of amounts, as long as it all ended up to enough money in the end to fund the game.

      For an example of how this works, look at political campaign web sites. Millions of people make small contributions that add up to millions of dollars, and they're not even guaranteed anything in return! Setting up a similar system for the development of software, music, etc. would be straightforward - the only hard part would be getting people used to the system. But it's already being tried to an extent: see sellaband.com for something similar (but not quite the same) for music.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    47. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      The point is that the data is infinite in nature because you can copy it for free. So therefore trying to stop the copying is an exercise in futility. Perhaps true for a low-cost, high-volume product like music mp3s, but not true for others like games, applications etc.

      Therefore instead of offering the game for a charge they should offer the service of hosting online games at a charge or the service of tracking stats online as a charge or whatever they want to offer a service of.
      • What if there simply isn't a corresponding service to sell?
      • What if the service is provided by some other entity under non-favorable revenue sharing terms?
      • What if the cost of the service is negligible to the cost of developing the actual prodcut
      • What if the service is easy to duplicate and therefor the 'service revenue' can be poached
      • What if the consumer simply perfers a single up-front cost instead of a monthly or annual fee?

      Yes, it won't be as profitable up front but it will be MORE profitable over time.
      • You simply don't have any data to back up that conclusion (not to mention the logical flaws that I pointed out above)
      • In any case, if your argument made sense (which it doesn't), it means you are advocating higher costs for consumers

      Bottom line -- service-oriented revenue models make sense in many many cases. That doesn't mean they are the solution to everything, and they certainly are not the solution to piracy.

    48. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      That's because shareware is usually in that lovely sub-$10 sweet-spot where it's not worth the time/effort/risk to find a crack, hope it works the same as the legal version, pray you don't get infected with trojans etc.

      This same argument won't hold up for games, applications etc. where the cost of the product is way higher (increasing the incentive for piracy)

    49. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by ikkonoishi · · Score: 1

      You were subconsciously including the IRS's contribution to your profit margin.

    50. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Grail · · Score: 1

      With copy protection, it's just too easy for the publishers to rip off their customers. Look at the trivial case of upgrading a computer on which you've got music that is "protected" using any Microsoft DRM scheme. Since Microsoft will not support that DRM scheme next month, the act of upgrading your computer is equated to copyright infringement, and you can no longer access your music.

      I've even been involved with one web site where their search engine was licensed software. It required routine renewals, otherwise it would stop working. One day the local support company closed shop, and it took the customer a month with no search box on their website to track down someone who would support the product and sell them a new key.

      The best way to validate software is to simply trust the customer to act honourably, while you simultaneously do your best to act honourably towards the customer. Software that deactivates itself or cripples your computer is no better than vigilante justice - it always ends up hurting the innocent.

    51. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Samizdata · · Score: 1

      One of the reasons I did buy Sins was due to Stardock's copy protection stance. Vote with your wallet.

      Of course, I also bought PA Adventures Episode 1, because it was

      A] Reasonably priced
      B] Windows, Linux, and OS X versions available
      and
      C] (a little shaky here, but better than nothing) the DRM scheme allowed for installation on up to three machines before running into issues.

      At least the protection was reasonable. (Didn't hurt I found the game truly laugh out loud funny in several places, either...)

      --
      It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. - Colonel Henry Walton Jones, Jr., Ph.D.
    52. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math."

      But the most outspoken against piracy are also the most successful, IMHO it's greed plain and simple. The problem is with game companies not innovating in cost cutting in production. That's the REAL problem. Piracy will never go away, and if it ever does they will find out that when a product bombs it was because it wasn't that good / they targetted a small demographic. The fact is gaming industry is becoming increasingly lucrative. Just look at the stats related to it's growth.

      Look at how insanely lucrative World of warcraft is, there's a point where it becomes extremely exploitive due to economies of scale. Where companies can take advantage of economies of scale, we know MMO's are made in the hopes of price gouging, to wrap it up in sheeps clothing by saying "oh it costs xx for servers and content development" and this is why game companies want a successful MMO so much.

    53. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 0

      How do you suggest they charge for "the labor of game design"? "Hi, we're designing a game. Here's a description of what we have in mind. We need $100,000 to finish the first part. If this sounds cool and you'd like it to see the light of day, please give us some money." Repeat until you've collected a total of $100,000; then write the game and release it to the public.

      Which is completely fair. They made a runaway hit. Oh, is it? If you buy a suit to wear to an interview, and you end up landing a job that pays $250,000 a year, does that mean the suit maker is entitled to a cut of your salary?

      "find someone else who'll provide it for less" -- interesting choice of words. If somebody steals a $20,000 car and 'provides' it to me for $2,000 do you suggest I buy it? Depends - did he "steal" a copy of that car with depriving anyone of the original? Because that is what we're talking about here, and it's an important distinction.

      If so, then yes, I do suggest you buy it.

      Recognize your 'provider' for what he is -- a theif. Of someone else's labor. Bullshit! He can't reach into the past and make anyone do a lick of extra work, which is what stealing labor would mean. The amount of labor that went into the game is exactly the same no matter how many people end up getting a copy or how many of them paid for it.

      His risk (and effort) is non-existant, but his reward is sky-high. Yet you seem eager to punish the publisher for wanting to make a buck. Only because his plan for making a buck involves restricting my rights: my right to exchange information about my experiences and my property with other people, my freedom to use my own property as I see fit, and so on.

      If he wants to make a buck by offering me a quality product at a competitive price -- rather than by restricting competition so that his price is the only price -- then I'll have no objection.

      A used-game store is a perfectly legal option for many reaons -- without going into them here, its pretty naive of you to club them in with the pirates thinking it gives your argument any weight - it doesn't. But it represents the same loss of revenue, doesn't it? If I buy a used game for $20 instead of a brand new copy for $50, the game publisher gets $0 - same as if I'd downloaded it for free.

      The only difference is that now there can be two people playing that game instead of just one, but that certainly doesn't deprive anyone of anything; it makes the world a better place, not a worse one.

      The laws I mentioned/suggested aren't supposed to enforce the business model. They're supposed to enforce our rights. I think you've got it backwards. Copyright does enforce a business model -- the model of doing the work first for free, and selling copies later -- and it does that by restricting our rights.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    54. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      and your crappy version of choice? (I assume you're referring to Maxima, which I would call less than crappy unless you like polished documents )

    55. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      nice. i was looking at a completely broken business model to present to class. thanks. the problem with political campaigns? it's a gamble. that's okay for a campaign, but not for my dollars going toward a product the consumer wants. Businesses are about getting money up front to fund production of a product, then selling it at the market bearable price to recoup your costs. Customers don't like gambling away their product purchasing dollars.

    56. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 0

      Businesses are about getting money up front to fund production of a product, then selling it at the market bearable price to recoup your costs. Customers don't like gambling away their product purchasing dollars. Exactly, which is why unlike a political campaign, you'd need to offer your customers some guarantees. Give them a clear description of what they're paying for, give them a time frame in which it's going to be completed, and if the product isn't finished by then or is substantially different from what was promised, give them a full or partial refund. You could come up with several different ways to do it, using escrow, third-party arbitration, customer voting, or whatever, but those are implementation details.

      I mentioned the fact that campaign contributions don't come with any guarantees to illustrate that people are willing to spend money even on a gamble, and thus they should be even more willing to spend money when they know what it is they're getting. That probably could've been clearer, though; sorry.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    57. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by megaditto · · Score: 1

      But why does he blame this software maker instead of his phone provider?

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    58. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Without copy-protection its just too easy for people to rip-off the publishers.

      With copy-protection it's just too easy for the publishers to rip off people.

      I know where I stand.

      I especially think the "treating us as criminals" arguments is given way more weight than it's really worth. I mean, does anybody have a better idea about how to validate s/w as being legally purchased other than using some product activation mechanism (whether it works over the phone or net?)

      Yes. Don't validate at all. "Validation" (less dishonestly, canceling invalidation) is just guilty until proven innocent.

      The vast majority of piracy is done by people who are time rich and money poor and don't affect sales much at all, particularly when the free advertising is taken into account.

      Yes, many publishers get a bee in their bonnet about people who use a copy of their product without paying, ignoring the fact that most never would've bought the product anyway. So what?

      ---

      WGA. Guilty until proven innocent. For millions. Again and again.

    59. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I didn't realize calling Canada carried "international...

      George????

    60. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Hi, we're designing a game.... I suggest you try it. In the world we live in, people are trying to avoid paying for software/games that already exist - let alone ones that don't exist yet.

      Oh, is it? If you buy a suit to wear to an interview.... He got paid when I bought the suit. Risk and reward, remember?

      Depends - did he "steal" a copy of that car .... You are again attempting to dis-associate the cost of production and cost of design. In the car example, the production (copy) cost is high and design cost is relatively low. In software, design cost is high and production cost is very low. You still have to add them togeter to come up with a net cost of goods.

      The amount of labor that went into the game is exactly the same... But the pirate illegally pocketed the money instead of paying the laborers. That's theft. No matter how you twist it, that's theft.

      Only because his (publisher's) plan for making a buck involves restricting my rights Which is why I said, we need laws to prevent copy-restrictions from doing that.

      ...rather than by restricting competition... Copy protection should not restrict competition. Current DRM-schemes (for example iTunes, WM-DRM) do indeed restrict competition. They should not, by law be allowed to do that. Now do you understand the sort of laws I'm talking about? Ones that mandate interoperability guidelines, for example?

      But it represents the same loss of revenue, doesn't it? No, it doesn't. As you said, the original owner now no longer has a copy of the game. If the game is so awesome that you want to keep playing it forever, you have to be willing to forego your $25 trade-in fee. In your 'better' world the publisher does not get rewarded for making such an awesome game -- in other words, it deprives the publisher of their just rewards.

      I think you've got it backwards. Copyright does enforce a business model -- the model of doing the work first for free, and selling copies later -- and it does that by restricting our rights.

      At the risk of turning this into a flamewar, I suggest that you have a misplaced sense of entitlement. You feel the whole business world should bend over backwards to provide everything to you for free, unless they can find some way of providing you an add-on service that you absolutely can't circumvent. This is utterly irrational on your part.

      You have rights, but so do publishers. A solution is necessary that protects both your rights and theirs. Zero-DRM protects our rights at their cost. DRM allowed to roam free, protects their rights at the cost of ours. DRM, with proper legislative oversight/guidelines can protect the rights of both parties. The DRM exists; the legistation does not -- and the courts or government need to desperately step in and do something about it. I can't believe you have a problem understanding this.

    61. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by bit01 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If I lose the key, that's my fault.

      No, it's a deliberate game breakage by the vendor. It's crippleware. It's only human to lose things, particularly things as ephemeral and meaningless as a license number, and to pretend it never happens is dishonest. Your game will die.

      The game still theoretically works.

      "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~ Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut/Yogi Berra.

      Ownership is, by definition, the right to control. If the vendor controls it then you don't own it.

      ---

      DRM'ed content breaks the copyright bargain, the first sale doctrine and fair use provisions. It should not be possible to copyright DRM'ed content.

    62. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      With copy-protection it's just too easy for the publishers to rip off people. I believe I addressed that. copy-protection protects the publisher's rights. Laws governing what copy-protection can and cannot do must protect ours. The absense of copy protection protects our rights, at the cost of the publisher's rights.

      "Validation" (less dishonestly, canceling invalidation) is just guilty until proven innocent. You just defended the "treating us like criminals" argument with the "treating us like criminals" argument -- it doesn't work that way :)

      The vast majority of piracy is done by people who are time rich and money poor and don't affect sales much at all, particularly when the free advertising is taken into account. Yes, many publishers get a bee in their bonnet about people who use a copy of their product without paying, ignoring the fact that most never would've bought the product anyway. So what? This argument gets tossed out a lot -- where's the data defending it? There's absolutely no thought about price points etc. It's an interesting thought -- and the model might work for some -- but there's absolutely no evidence that this solution will work for all products that can be digitally distributed. That includes movies, applications, OSes, game disks etc. -- you have a point, but it's a theory at best -- nothing more.
    63. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      Perhaps this math isn't as simple as it is purported to be...
    64. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Here's a better, far more economically (and legally) sound idea. Why don't you just pay the price listed, or forget about it? The publishers are placing a price tag on their product (just like any other goods/service provider does) in the hope that it will gain them the most profit, by wooing people like you into buying it. If that's too high, well then you can try haggling, but when that inevitably fails, you just have to walk away empty-handed. Maybe the price that you thought it was worth (in this case, absolutely nothing) is unsustainable. It's not their responsibility to provide it for the price you want, no matter how much you kick and scream. It's also not your right (legal or natural) to have the thing you wanted so badly if you can't afford it. Don't give me this "information is everyone's property" crap, because it doesn't apply here. It's recent software, it hasn't penetrated the culture to any significant degree, and thanks are almost entirely due to the publisher, and the software writers they represent, that you even have a chance of enjoying this piece of software.

      Your quasi-economic bullshit justification of piracy is just further evidence as to why the unwashed masses shouldn't have so much control in business transactions.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    65. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 1

      Yes but they're just bits. Of course if a customer has access to a product (via bittorrent even) then they have a right to access it as they see fit. They're copying data around! Yes there was expense in arranging those bits but there's nothing special about them; it's just a gigantic binary number. You can at least understand the "oh COME on" and "give me a break"s coming from the digg crowd when the AACS LA claimed that 09F9 was a number illegal to possess. What about the ridiculous concept of an illegal prime? So is it that much of a stretch to extend that to copyright infringement?

      You have a computer. Because it's a machine, it performs a task. The task that it performs, because it is a programmable computer, isn't set in the factory; it's set by the user and is not inherent in the chip. The machine will perform a specific task depending on which pins are active on the chip. By trying different combinations of active pins, you can get the computer to perform tasks in sequence and achieve larger goals. So how absurd does it sound to suggest an illegal combination of electrical signals? When you reduce it to that level, the level of an illegal number, or an illegal sequence of instructions, it sounds preposterous! Of course you can make the same argument for murder- how is it wrong to move a metal object through the space occupied by a human neck? It's just like any other space except currently occupied by flesh. That argument wouldn't hold up in court, but the the thing is it really does apply to computers. There's really nothing at all going on except bits flipping back and forth. This is a machine.

    66. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by darkfire5252 · · Score: 1

      The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. Even that would only mostly work, but it would work well enough to eliminate any other inconviences. The device you're thinking of is the Trusted Platform Module (already present in modern motherboards) and the technology the OS will use is Trusted Computing. The specs are already published, it's insidiously effective.
    67. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has it been 24 hours since you posted your own math correction yet? I just wanted to point out that 10m/10m is not 10. I feel there is a slashdot meme brewing here, and I don't want to miss out.

    68. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I mentioned the fact that campaign contributions don't come with any guarantees to illustrate that people are willing to spend money even on a gamble, and thus they should be even more willing to spend money when they know what it is they're getting.

      This is such an incredibly damaged argument. Can you even imagine the reams of specs you'd have to go through to know exactly what sort of product you are signing up to fund? I can just see the conversations:

      "Well, we said you'd get a car, right? You guys never mentioned you wanted cup-holders in it. What was that -- you wanted xenon HIDs? Oh and a lightweight magnesium-alloy gearbox instead of a slushbox?

      Now translate that to the specs that go into a game or an application (or a game with an API for extensions) and so on and so forth. Get real dude - do you actually beleive in that solution yourself?

      In fact, what if the game is completed underbudget and is such mindblowing success that even without any copy-protection it generates 10x profits when sold on a per-copy basis. Does the publisher need to share the profit with the contributors? Do they get to keep the under-budget delta?

      What you described sounds like some sort of venture capitalism -- but the interest there isn't in buying the product later. It's in developing a business that can then be sold. And it requires shit loads of research, and time, and money.

    69. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by gorckat · · Score: 1

      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      Am I justified in pirating your wares if you attempt to disguise 9 million bucks profit as breaking even? :P

    70. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.
    71. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by eldepeche · · Score: 1

      I think for people without net-access, phone-in activation is a decent substitute.

      But what if you had it and for whatever reason (travel, etc.) are without it for a while? If a game has to phone home every so often, you run the risk of having it deactivated.

    72. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by oracle128 · · Score: 1
      Let me help out with this one:

      The only difference is that now there can be two people playing that game instead of just one, but that certainly doesn't deprive anyone of anything; it makes the world a better place, not a worse one. I think I might print my own money and literally become a self-made millionaire. That doesn't deprive anyone of anything either. Then I'll make sure to give millions of dollars to everyone in the country except you. And according to your logic, I'd be making the world a better place while I'm at it. Win-win!
    73. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by radish · · Score: 1

      Instead of being paid for the amount of work they put in, like everyone else, they want to be paid based on the number of people who end up enjoying the game.

      If only the rest of us got that luxury! Maybe barbers would like to be paid based on the number of people who compliment you on your haircut. Maybe auto manufacturers would like to be paid based on the number of trips you take in your car, or the number of passengers you carry, instead of a fixed amount up front. But would it really be worth passing a bunch of laws enforcing those business models?


      We do. I don't know about where you work, but at my company if there were no customers there would very quickly be no paycheck. If a barber consistently does a bad job then no-one will visit his shop and he'll go out of business. Likewise, if he does really well and everyone recommends him to their friends he'll get more business, open a bigger shop, buy a nice house and retire in luxury. If I buy a car and it is unreliable, or bad to drive, that company will lose my repeat business. A game company is no different. They design and create a product (car), then they try to sell copies of it (cars). If they made a good game (car) it'll sell lots of copies (cars) and they'll make their investment back plus some profit. If not, they'll not only have trouble breaking even on this deal, they'll probably have lost a lot of future business and it'll be hard to drum up capital for the next one.

      You seem to be entirely ignorant of how the economic system works, and how software production really is not different whatsoever from any other manufacturing industry, other than the ease with which the product can be ripped off. Or do you really think a Ferrari costs $200k in raw materials?

      And we are still entitled to think that what they're providing isn't worth $10, and find someone else who'll provide it for less - whether that's a used game store or a torrent.

      NO. You are entitled to find someone who will provide something of equivalent or greater value to you at a price you're willing to pay. Just because you don't want to pay for something doesn't mean it should be free - that's just not how the system works. If you don't like it feel free to campaign for change, but don't think you can just spew some crap about civil disobedience. Those who really know what that means know that civil disobedience involves getting caught and taking the punishment to publicize a wrong - not hiding in your parent's basement hoping no-one will find your uber-tracker.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    74. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You can at least understand the "oh COME on" and "give me a break"s coming from the digg crowd when the AACS LA claimed that 09F9 was a number illegal to possess. What about the ridiculous concept of an illegal prime [wikipedia.org]? So is it that much of a stretch to extend that to copyright infringement?

      Wow -- YES -- it's too much of a stretch!!! The 09F9 thing is dumb as rocks. The illegal prime thing is dumb as rocks. Your "Yes but they're just bits" argument, sadly, is also dumb as rocks.

      Those bits are the culmination of some entities efforts and they want to sell them to you for a price. If the price is fair, and you want the bits, buy them. If not, don't. If you take the bits by any means without paying the asked price, you are stealing them.

      Your whole paragraph about electrical signals is terribly flawed. I'll get to the core of it:

      So how absurd does it sound to suggest an illegal combination of electrical signals? Not even the slightest, itty little bit absurd!

      The power you draw from the mains to power your computer in the very first place is an example of a very well defined pattern of an electrical signal. We know the specification of this pattern in very precise detail. But do you think you have a god-given right to tap into (just for example) your neighbour's power line, and 'replicate' that pattern?

      In one case the 'pattern' represented an energy investment made by some entity. In the other case the 'pattern' represents some knowledge work done by some entity. Either way, they are within thier rights to charge you for it, and you are stealing if you 'copy' it without paying them.

      Similar case -- if ford designs an amazing car that is the most amazing car ever made. Can chrysler make an exact copy of that car and sell it legally? No -- in this case chrysler are the pirate. It doesn't matter that replication is the real cost here -- the design belongs to ford, and ford alone.

    75. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 1

      Or you could have a system like Bioware. You register your game using your CD key and that way if you ever lose it, you can just log on and get it back. Problem is, CD keys are extremely easy for pirates to circumvent. Even Mass Effect, with it's highly intrusive version of SecuROM, was cracked inside a week, thus negating the whole point of the new version of SecuROM and it's "activation" policy.

    76. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Probably the reason there is piracy is that the original value proposition of the software distributor is not an acceptable offer for some or many of the end users. Software pirates instead secure an alternative price-point for the same product through illicit redistribution methods. This accounts for why a drop in piracy does not result in an increase in sales."

      Have any proof to back this up? I didn't think so. I helped a friend out with his software company a couple of years ago, and sales were directly proportional to piracy. IE: When cracks on warez sites were fixed, sales went up as much as 70%.

      "The market for software is probably much smaller than the software-producers wish. To me, this seems like a problem with the business model and marketing department, to be honest. Social reengineering to secure a market for a product which many people find to be of poor value compared to alternatives is not an effective solution; the problem is not that pirates steal, it's that some users don't see value."

      Now you are trying to legitimize piracy. If something has no value to me, I don't download it or buy it.

      Everyone I have ever known that has pirated software, has done so because:

      1) the software has value
      and
      2) they don't want to spend money on it.

    77. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      Not that simple, apparently.

    78. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by sjames · · Score: 1

      The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. Even that would only mostly work, but it would work well enough to eliminate any other inconviences.

      Actually, it'll only move the problems from the individual bits of software to the OS as a whole. The OS will, after all need to make sure you are who you say you are, haven't de-fanged the anti-modding hardware, patched out the runtime license checks or just brought the whole thing up in an emulator.

      All of those checks will be on a hair trigger because if anyone anywhere in the world tricks it just once, the whole thing will unravel and the patch will cover the globe before the lawyers can even reach for their pen.

      Hair trigger copy prevention is exactly the problem in the first place for legitimate users.

    79. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by russotto · · Score: 1

      My point is not to defend DRM -- I am with the /. crowd in hating it. My point is, it's easy to see why it exists when you pause to consider the 'other' side's perspective, and that's why it's unlikely to ever go away completely. Now that being the case, it's important for the courts or the govt. to step in and define our rights clearly so that companies don't trample on our rights while trying to protect theirs.


      It had gone away, not completely but darn near. Know what brought it back? The government stepped in and defined our rights away to protect theirs, by passing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which made it illegal to break the copy protection.

    80. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "If only the rest of us got that luxury! Maybe barbers would like to be paid based on the number of people who compliment you on your haircut. Maybe auto manufacturers would like to be paid based on the number of trips you take in your car, or the number of passengers you carry, instead of a fixed amount up front. But would it really be worth passing a bunch of laws enforcing those business models?"

      Why are sports stars/actors paid millions? It just isn't fair. Boo hoo!

      Some games cost over a million to create, develop, and market (and probably a longer list of other things that cost money). Instead of charging a million per copy, the cost is made up through the number of copies sold. If you don't like this business model, don't fucking buy it.

      "I'd say if a publisher isn't willing to have their work copied, they shouldn't release it. Pouting because people copied the information you made available to them is like pouting because you built an igloo in the summer and it melted. Information is copyable, and water is a liquid above 32 F: these are facts of life."

      I wish you would tell that to the FSF. They are going after gnu violators in court. The authors released it for free..why shouldn't I be able to put it in my proprietary application?

    81. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "For an example of how this works, look at political campaign web sites. Millions of people make small contributions that add up to millions of dollars, and they're not even guaranteed anything in return! Setting up a similar system for the development of software, music, etc. would be straightforward - the only hard part would be getting people used to the system. But it's already being tried to an extent: see sellaband.com for something similar (but not quite the same) for music."

      what you are talking about is called a donation. Which generally does not work for a business.

    82. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 0

      I suggest you try it. In the world we live in, people are trying to avoid paying for software/games that already exist - let alone ones that don't exist yet. If no one is willing to pay for it, that means there isn't enough demand for that labor to make it worthwhile. Compare that to the situation where a bunch of people spend a year writing a game that never sells enough copies to recoup the cost of development: if they'd known ahead of time that their work wouldn't turn a profit, they could've spent that time on something else.

      But the pirate illegally pocketed the money instead of paying the laborers. That's theft. No matter how you twist it, that's theft. Nope, those laborers chose not to be paid for their labor when they left the "writing software" business and entered the "distributing copies" business.

      Which is why I said, we need laws to prevent copy-restrictions from doing that [restricting rights]. But then it's not copyright anymore. The whole point of copyright is that by restricting the rights of anyone who would be willing to share certain information with you, I can force you to buy it from me instead (or not receive it at all). Without restricting rights, copyright can't exist.

      Copy protection should not restrict competition. Again, the whole point of copy protection is to restrict competition, forcing anyone who wants the product to buy it from a single official source. Competition would mean I can buy a song for 10 cents from AllOfMP3 instead of for $1 from iTunes, and competitive pressure would eventually push the price down to just above zero (since that's the marginal cost of a copy).

      No, it doesn't. As you said, the original owner now no longer has a copy of the game. But the publisher doesn't want the disappointed tears of gamers who no longer have a copy of their favorite games; he wants money. He ends up with exactly the same amount of money whether I buy a used copy or download a free one. Whether or not the person who sold that used copy misses out on all the fun is irrelevant to the publisher.

      At the risk of turning this into a flamewar, I suggest that you have a misplaced sense of entitlement. You feel the whole business world should bend over backwards to provide everything to you for free, unless they can find some way of providing you an add-on service that you absolutely can't circumvent. This is utterly irrational on your part. Once again, you're 180 degrees off. I'm not the one trying to impose anything on anyone else. I'm not asking anyone to "bend over backwards" to provide me with anything, especially for free.

      On the contrary, they are imposing terms on me. They want to tell me what I can or can't send over my internet connection and phone line, what I can or can't do with my computer and my DVD burner, what I can or can't host on my web site or tracker. They want me to bend over and give up my freedom for their benefit.

      All I'm asking is for them to mind their own damn business.

      If they want to write a game, that's great. If they want to get paid for developing it, that's entirely fair, and I'll happily pay for some of that labor if it's something that interests me. Hell, if they want to charge for the copies that they distribute, that's OK too - I'm not asking them to lift a finger for free. But if they can't rub two brain cells together to form a business model that's compatible with my rights, that's their problem, not mine.
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      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    83. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Can you even imagine the reams of specs you'd have to go through to know exactly what sort of product you are signing up to fund? You could make the same complaint about any service. Do you demand "reams of specs" from your barber, setting forth the desired placement of every single hair on your head? Do you expect your family photographer to tell you exactly how your heads will be placed within the frame to +/- 1 mm, which F-stop and film speeds he'll use, and so on?

      Of course not. You come up with a reasonable description of the service you want done, and you let him figure out the details. If he won't make a commitment to the level of detail you want, you can move on and hire someone else. Or if you do hire him, and when it's done, he says he did what you asked and you say he didn't, then you take him to court and a judge decides whether the service performed meets the original promise.

      None of this is new.

      What you described sounds like some sort of venture capitalism No, it's just performing a service in exchange for money, the kind of thing millions (if not billions) of people do every day.
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    84. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      You seem to be entirely ignorant of how the economic system works, and how software production really is not different whatsoever from any other manufacturing industry, other than the ease with which the product can be ripped off. Oh, and the fact that the "product" only has to be "manufactured" once in order to satisfy an infinite number of customers. Kind of a big difference, that one. In fact, it's the reason why software production is not at all like manufacturing.

      Really, the only similarity between today's software industry and a manufacturing industry is that the design is done up front, and then the design costs are recouped by selling lots of copies. But that's not an inherent aspect of programming at all; it's an artifact of the attempt to force software into a manufacturing model which doesn't really apply.

      Or do you really think a Ferrari costs $200k in raw materials? They can charge whatever they want for the products they distribute, but if someone else is offering an identical car at a lower price, I'd rather buy that one instead.

      Just because you don't want to pay for something doesn't mean it should be free - that's just not how the system works. I agree: it shouldn't be free just because people don't want to pay for it. It should be free because people are willing to offer it for free without depriving anyone else of it.

      If you don't like it feel free to campaign for change, but don't think you can just spew some crap about civil disobedience. Those who really know what that means know that civil disobedience involves getting caught and taking the punishment to publicize a wrong The astute reader will note that the phrase "civil disobedience" didn't appear even once in my comment. You can harp on it all you want, but it's beside the point: you're the only one "spewing" anything about civil disobedience.

      Yes, I suppose getting caught in order to drum up publicity would be a better approach if your goal is to draw attention and agitate for change, but I'm not telling anyone to do that, because that's not my goal. For one thing, change isn't likely to occur no matter how many people demand it, because Big Content's money speaks louder than anyone.

      But the other thing is change isn't really all that necessary, at least right now. In practice, it's creators and distributors who are most limited by copyright, not consumers. Copyright holders snipe at each other with restrictions on which works are derivative of which others, which TV series can be released on DVD with the original soundtracks, who used whose idea without paying for it, etc. while consumers end up getting whatever they want anyway, because copyright is basically unenforceable at the person-to-person level.
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      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    85. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      If no one is willing to pay for it... This model is just broken. I've already debunked it effectively. Reply to that post instead.

      Nope, those laborers chose not to be paid for their labor when they left the "writing software" business and entered the "distributing copies" business. They didn't have a choice. You stole their product. They wanted to sell it to you for a certain price. You didn't want to pay the price, but felt you had some god-given right to use the product anyway, so you make an unauthorized copy -- they didn't participate in this action in any way -- you did, and your action amounts to theft.

      The whole point of copyright is that by restricting the rights of anyone ... Wow - wrong! Copyright gives the original creator (publisher) the right to be credited for their work. The pirate violates the copyright by taking that credit instead.

      Again, the whole point of copy protection is to restrict competition That is emphatically not the point of copy-protection. It is a side-effect that can be achieved when applied to media (music, movies) but that's it. Consider two concrete cases:
      • If tomorrow the govt. said, any music DRM scheme must be licensed at x price to any company that want to license it. Boom! Now iTunes purchases will work with all music players -- copy protection acheived, competition-restriction defeated!
      • Now consider copy protection in something like Adobe Photoshop (or any appliction or game). This can only make the bar for pirates higher. It cannot restrict competition because it has absolutely no effect on competing products.

      He ends up with exactly the same amount of money whether I buy a used copy or download a free one. Wrong again! More people want to hold on to hit games to play them again later, resulting in more sales (since there are less used copies available). Simple demand and supply. Otherwise everybody would just download the game for free, and the publisher never gets paid.

      I'm not asking anyone to "bend over backwards" to provide me with anything, especially for free. You're doing much worse than that. You're suggesting nobody has a right to get paid for a product -- they can only ask to be paid for a service. You're exhibiting the most extreme cheapness and self-righteousness I've seen in a really long time.

      All I'm asking is for them to mind their own damn business. And I'm asking for laws ensuring exactly that. While also ensuring sure that cheapos like you don't get a free ride.

      I'll happily pay for some of that labor if it's something that interests me. Again, you don't have this god-given right to choose what you should pay (i.e. labor and distribution only). They have every right to make a profit, to chose their price point, business model, distribution method. For all your noise about publishers not being able to "rub two brain cells together to form a business model that's compatible" with your rights, you came up with an incredibly damaged buisness model yourself. And lastly -- even if there is a flaw in the business model - it still doesn't give you the right to steal their product!. You simply need to exercise your right to say "no, I don't want to buy it".
    86. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Why are sports stars/actors paid millions? It just isn't fair. Boo hoo! Sorry you feel that way. Sports stars demand an amount of money in exchange for the service they're going to perform, and they either find someone who's willing to pay it or they revise their asking price. Nothing wrong with that.

      If you're trying to draw an analogy between sports stars and programmers, try this one: imagine a sports star who decides he doesn't want to get paid for playing the game, but instead he wants to collect $10 from everyone who watches him play - whether they're watching at the stadium, on TV, or years later on DVD. And then he convinces Congress to make it illegal to look at a picture or video clip of him playing unless you've mailed him a check.

      Some games cost over a million to create, develop, and market (and probably a longer list of other things that cost money). Instead of charging a million per copy, the cost is made up through the number of copies sold. If you don't like this business model, don't fucking buy it. If only it were that simple. See, copyright restricts everyone's freedom. It forces everyone to participate in that business model, even the people who "don't fucking buy it".

      By the way, political campaigns also cost millions of dollars to run. Do you know how they're funded? (Hint: it's not by finding one person and asking him for a hundred million dollars. Nor is it by producing an ad with borrowed money and then hoping to recoup it by charging everyone who watches the ad.)

      I wish you would tell that to the FSF. They are going after gnu violators in court. The authors released it for free..why shouldn't I be able to put it in my proprietary application? Without copyright, you would be able to. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, because everyone would be free to share your proprietary application, disassemble it, and port your changes back into the open source code. RMS disagrees with me, but oh well.
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    87. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by monxrtr · · Score: 1

      There's a flip side to that too. The company could invest $10 million to develop the game, and the game sucks and nobody buys it. Being pad in advance for service also delivers certainty and reduces risk. And you can still strike it rich by offering the official version on your website after it's developed for a reasonable convenience fee. Better to pay a moderate sum than waste time with risky torrents. And once you've got a good reputation, you can really strike it rich on the sequels. You can offer value. Some guy might be willing to pay $50,000 to choose the lead character's name. $50 let's you name spells. Etc. Be creative. Auction stuff like that through the development cycle. Put the names of the big funders in the game credits.

      Copyright is absolutely unnecessary to the creation of art. If the art is created before any sale, copyright has done absolutely nothing for the creation of that art. If the production of that art is funded in advance of its creation, copyright is completely unnecessary.

      --
      "From DNA to P2P, we are all Copycats now. Go Go Copycat Power! Copycat Powers activate! Form of, a Copycat." --monxrtr
    88. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Part of the problem is that in the end, defeating the copy protection is way more fun than the game itself. After all, the game is meant to be beaten at some point. The copy protection actually represents someone's best effort to stop you.

      Finish the game and be one of millions. Defeat the copy prevention and you've really accomplished something.

      Of course, there's the whole issue of copy prevention in the first place. There, the publisher's right to protect itself ends at the point where they prevent a legitimate user from actually using the product.

      I especially think the "treating us as criminals" arguments is given way more weight than it's really worth. I mean, does anybody have a better idea about how to validate s/w as being legally purchased other than using some product activation mechanism (whether it works over the phone or net?)

      Irrelevant! People have a right to not be treated like a criminal until proven otherwise. If the publishers can't come up with a better way, they need to come up with a better business model instead.

    89. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      what you are talking about is called a donation. Which generally does not work for a business. Not quite.

      It's true that political campaigns are funded by donations, yes. But the reason they're called donations is that you're not guaranteed anything in return. You don't know whether the candidate will spend your money on radio ads, fliers, etc., or even whether it'll be spent at all, and you certainly have no recourse if it gets spent on something you don't like.

      If you do offer guarantees, however, then it's not a donation: it's payment for a service, which of course works quite well for businesses. You have a reasonably good idea of what you're getting in exchange for your money, and if the result doesn't measure up to what you were promised, you can demand your money back.

      It might seem like that poses a problem for creative endeavors like designing a game, where the outcome isn't specified to pixel-perfect detail. But in fact, paying for creative services is nothing new, and any criticisms you could imagine have probably already been dealt with for services like photography and architecture.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    90. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You could make the same complaint about any service No, you can't. There's a humongous difference between seeing a finished product and deciding if you want it, vs. seeing a proposal, assuming all will work as claimed, and putting money down for it. Come to think of it, anytime people crave something different they'd have to go through reams of proposals instead of browsing through existing product -- because existing product can only be sold (given?) to people who funed the labor in your model!

      You come up with a reasonable description of the service you want done, and you let him figure out the details. Define reasonable. Define it for a operating system, a game, a song and a movie. Will you describe the movie you want made (thereby ruining the suspense among other things) and then fund it? Or browse a description of movies you want made and then fund them?

      No, it's just performing a service in exchange for money, the kind of thing millions (if not billions) of people do every day. Or selling a product in exchange for money. The kind of thing millions (if not billions) of people do every day. But that isn't what you suggested -- you suggested the direct funding of the labor of product development be undertaken by the people who want to buy the product -- a model that works for an incredibly small number of businesses (some housing and defence contracts work this way), and none of them are mass-market. And the reason for that, is the reams of specs that go into forming those contracts.
    91. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by sjames · · Score: 1

      There is a certain amount of gamble in a product anyway. It might be a crap game.

      How about a pledge system. People who want the game to exist pledge their money. When enough pledges come in, the game is released and the producer pockets the cash. If it isn't released in a defined period of time, the pledges are refunded.

    92. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I think he means "I didn't know the call centre was in Canada, and that Maple wouldn't subsidise my call to make up the difference between a (local/long distance) and international call" - many companies' international call centres are the freecall ones. Perhaps if he didn't have to put in an area code, he may not have even realised that it was an international call at all.

    93. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      You could make the same complaint about any service.

      OR - we could treat software not as a service but something I call a "product". Where people pay to buy finished "products" that they can use. Where they can read the comments of others who have used the "product" in things I'll call "reviews".

      I know, silly me... Software as a product! It'll never work...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    94. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      They didn't have a choice. Of course they did. They could've offered to sell their labor, but instead, they offered to sell discs. They removed themselves from the programming-labor market, where they could compete, and inserted themselves into the plastic-disc market, where they can't. That's their problem, not mine.

      You stole their product. They wanted to sell it to you for a certain price. You didn't want to pay the price, but felt you had some god-given right to use the product anyway, so you make an unauthorized copy -- they didn't participate in this action in any way -- you did, and your action amounts to theft. Ah yes, that magical kind of "theft" in which no one is deprived of anything. Please forgive me for not caring one whit about that kind of phony, neutered "theft". The fact that theft deprives people of their property is exactly what makes theft a bad thing; without that, it's merely "theft lite", with all the rhetorical impact but none of the harm.

      Copyright gives the original creator (publisher) the right to be credited for their work. The pirate violates the copyright by taking that credit instead. Actually, no, they don't; they give credit to the original creator. No one wants "Photoshop by leetpiratekid420", they want "Adobe Photoshop", so that's what gets shared. Look on any torrent site.

      If they were taking credit for someone else's work, then believe me, I'd be denouncing those bastards right alongside you. Taking credit would be fraud, not copyright infringement.

      Now consider copy protection in something like Adobe Photoshop (or any appliction or game). This can only make the bar for pirates higher. It cannot restrict competition because it has absolutely no effect on competing products. But it does restrict competition, because it means only Adobe is allowed to provide that sequence of bits. A competitive market would allow everyone to provide that sequence of bits.

      You're doing much worse than that. You're suggesting nobody has a right to get paid for a product -- they can only ask to be paid for a service. Not at all! I have no problem with people selling products. If Adobe wants to sell a box containing a disc with a certain sequence of bits burned onto it, they can do that, and they can charge whatever price they want. I won't object at all.

      I will object, however, when they want to stop everyone else from selling a different box containing a different disc with the same sequence of bits on it. Or from distributing those bits over the internet. Or from distributing a different sequence of bits that's derived from the first one.

      You're exhibiting the most extreme cheapness and self-righteousness I've seen in a really long time. I'm sorry you've been misinterpreting my posts in a way that gives you that impression. Perhaps you'll learn to stop doing that, and to focus on my arguments instead of attacking me as a person ("cheapos like you").

      Again, you don't have this god-given right to choose what you should pay (i.e. labor and distribution only). They have every right to make a profit, to chose their price point, business model, distribution method. Of course. And I have the right to reject that and find someone else who offers what I want at a better price.

      For all your noise about publishers not being able to "rub two brain cells together to form a business model that's compatible" with your rights, you came up with an incredibly damaged buisness model yourself. Actually, I didn't come up with it... it's been in use for thousands of years, in thousands of industries. For as long as there has been money or goods to barter, people have been paying each other to do things. I'm just making the common-sense observation that writing software is a thing you can pay someone to do.

      As for whether this age-old business model is "incredibly damaged"... well, open your eyes. I don't see any shortage of businesses using the payment-for-service model, do you?
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      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    95. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 0

      No, you can't. There's a humongous difference between seeing a finished product and deciding if you want it, vs. seeing a proposal, assuming all will work as claimed, and putting money down for it. Um.. let me repeat the part of my comment that you quoted, this time with emphasis: "You could make the same complaint about any service."

      When you pay for a service, you're "seeing a proposal, assuming all will work as claimed, and putting money down for it". That's how services typically work: the service doesn't get performed until after you've agreed to pay for it.

      You can't take your car to a mechanic for repairs, then after it's done, say "hmm, you know, I found a better deal somewhere else" and drive off without paying for your repaired car. By having him perform the service, you're agreeing to pay. Whether you physically exchange the money before or after he fixes your car is irrelevant.

      Of course, if he fails to fix your car, you can demand your money back. That wouldn't change just because we replace "fix your car" with "write your program".

      Come to think of it, anytime people crave something different they'd have to go through reams of proposals instead of browsing through existing product -- because existing product can only be sold (given?) to people who funed the labor in your model! I'm not sure where you're getting that. Under the model I've proposed, if you hire me to write a program, I'll give it to you and then wash my hands of it. You can then give it to whoever you want, under whatever terms you want. It's none of my concern what you do with that program once it leaves my hands; I may have written it, but nobody owns it.

      Define reasonable. Define it for a operating system, a game, a song and a movie. Will you describe the movie you want made (thereby ruining the suspense among other things) and then fund it? Or browse a description of movies you want made and then fund them? I'll let the market work that out. The only requirement is that the person putting down the money feels he knows enough about what the final result will be that he'll be able to determine whether it lived up to the description. If you think the seller is being too vague, then don't give him your money.

      Or selling a product in exchange for money. The kind of thing millions (if not billions) of people do every day. The rest of them manage to do that without a monopoly, though. If you want to burn a file to a CD and sell it as a product without demanding to be the only person who's allowed to sell that file, then go right ahead.
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    96. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I know, silly me... Software as a product! It'll never work... Indeed, the fact that people keep complaining about piracy is evidence that it isn't working.
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    97. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice typo with the 'simple maths' ;)

    98. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      I don't know, the fact that a vast minority complain about copy protection tells me that for the most part the publishers are OK with the state of things, and that most of the buying public really doesn't care that much...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    99. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math

      Hmmm, so simple in fact, that you got it wrong.

    100. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by msormune · · Score: 1

      So did you find a OS software that worked better for you? I bet you did not.

    101. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Irrelevant! People have a right to not be treated like a criminal until proven otherwise. If the publishers can't come up with a better way, they need to come up with a better business model instead. Pause to think for a moment before you claim it to be irrelevant so emphatically. There are many other situations where you submit to checks without quite the same fuss. A few examples:
      • When you go through security checks at an airport (even without accounting for crazy post 9/11 levels of scrutiny
      • Swiping your card for entry to your office building
      • Having anti-theft devices attached to clothes, or in books so you can't leave a store without paying for them
      • Having the dude at Best Buy's exit ask to see your receipt on random occasions, to make sure you've paid for the stuff you're exiting with

      Ultimately if the publishers aren't able to come up with a better way, that's still no excuse for theft.

    102. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      I find CD keys to be a pain too...
      As an example, i bought a TomTom GPS unit, and it came preinstalled and ready to run, and with a backup copy of the software on CD, it also came with a tiny little sticker containing a registration code.
      It also came with 2 sets of maps, one of which was slightly too big to fit on the memory card.
      Some time down the line i tried to install a bigger memory card, and decided to put both sets of maps on there... Found the CD, installed it.. Now considering that the second map covers a foreign country, when i actually found myself in that foreign country i decided to switch to the foreign map. Here i hit a problem, i needed to enter that code from the tiny sticker to "activate" the map... Obviously i didn't have it with me in the hotel, and even if i was at home i'd have no idea where it was... TomTom weren't very helpful, and basically suggested i needed to buy a whole new device. So, i found a keygen online and problem solved.

      I have big stacks of papers, CDs, DVDs and other junk here... It's way too much hassle to keep copies of all the various junk on hand. Games that require you to insert the media are an even bigger pain... I travel a lot, with my laptop, it uses an external DVD reader which i rarely take with me. Having to take the external dvd reader, plus a stack of game media with me is just asking for trouble... The hassle of carrying it all round, the risk of losing stuff...

      I also don't like double dipping, where you are charged once for the game, but can't actually play it unless you pay again for a subscription... I believe world of warcraft is like this. A counter example is eve online, where you can download the game for free but you need to subscribe to a service to actually play it, you can also get a 2 week free trial. Tho the trouble with online games like these, is that once the vendors stops providing the service you will never be able to play the game again. I think vendors of such games should make an up front statement as to what happens when they end of life the game. They could open source it for instance, many people still play quake.

      Copy protection schemes for offline games are ultimately useless tho. They only serve to stop casual pirates (ie schoolkids making copies for friends) and do nothing to stop the warez groups and street vendors. The end result is that the pirated copy is better (you can make copies for friends, the copy protection schemes are gone) and online protection schemes, while they can work, i would avoid such games unless they agree what to do once they're no longer going to run the registration servers. I play a lot of old classic games, what happens to current games when the registration servers go dark?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    103. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Um.. let me repeat the part of my comment that you quoted, this time with emphasis: "You could make the same complaint about any service." You can repeat it as much as you want -- you still have no right to demand a service if someone is trying to sell a product. The seller has terms, and you can accept or reject. Simple.

      You can't take your car to a mechanic for repairs.... This is at least the fourth different analogy you've tried and it still fails. In the end, you got charged for parts and labor (which can be further broken down, but we'll keep it at that). Labor was the service, parts were the product. You paid the net cost -- not just for a service. You always have to look at net cost when pricing something. I really hope you don't live your life by the values you're displaying here, because you're just coming off as a super cheap person with an over-inflated sense of entitlement. Sorry to repeat that, but your arguments are just shocking.

      Under the model I've proposed.... And you're free to conduct business under that model. You still have no right to demand that every other business do so. And you still have no right to help yourself to illegal, unpaid downloads of software and games.

      I'll let the market work that out... It already did! There are many multitudes of business models in existance, and almost no industries have chosen the model you proposed. The market has already spoken.

      The rest of them manage to do that without a monopoly, though. You keep confusing unrelated issues -- so far, pricing, restricting competition, and now monopoly. And who are the "rest of them"? We're talking copy-protection for crying out loud. If Activision made COD4, only they should profit from it's sales, not some pirate (of course, distributors in the legal supply chain get a cut). Same with say Namco-Bandai and Ace Combat 6. Where the hell did monopoly come from in this?
    104. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by cliffski · · Score: 1

      "If I lose the key, that's my fault. "

      Companies that care about their customers won't fault you for losing something. If someone buys my game 10 years ago, loses their key, forgets their email address and forgets when they bought it, and formats their PC they can STILL get a fresh copy of the game just by emailing me and proving they are the guy/gal in my database by knowing stuff like their full name and address.
      If I can do that as a one man company, why can't all games companies?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    105. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by cliffski · · Score: 1

      you clearly do not understand the concept of fixed costs. Has this been eradicated from the basic economics curriculum since I studied?

      I guess you think that the water company should only charge you for the cost of the water, rather than paying back the infrastructure costs of laying the pipe and building the treatment plants? because it costs them almost nothing to just turn a tap right?

      I'm sick of reading this crap pasted everywhere that makes people feel good about taking stuff for free. In trendy web speak you FAIL at understanding basic economics.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    106. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by cliffski · · Score: 1

      wtf?
      this is exactly how sports stars get paid. They get paid a fortune by their employers, who recoup the money from TV companies, who.... (drum roll)
      CHARGE PEOPLE TO WATCH THE GAME.

      And yes, if you distribute copyrighted footage filmed by one of those companies you ARE breaking the law.

      And copyright doesn't RESTRICT PEOPLES FREEDOM. In a country that has the patriot act, guantanomo bay and the TSA, you really think not being able to legally steal Spiderman 3 is the biggest threat to your freedom? get real.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    107. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by cliffski · · Score: 1

      so you want far fewer, bigger budget games. Maybe just one a year eh?
      Nice plan.
      Goodbye innovation, hello huge corporate clones.

      or people could just be honest and buy the games they play...

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    108. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      Copy protection prevents a societies cultural heritage entering the public domain, or at least it is designed to. If software is released with copy protection then it should be a requirement that they either don't receive copyright protection on it or more realistically, that they must give an unprotected version of the software to some safe repository to ensure when the time comes it does enter the public domain.

    109. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math. I think your maths are a bit off there... 10 million dollars to develop, 10 million copies sold at $10 each is 90million profit, no just breaking even.
    110. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

      By publishing their work they have ceased to make it their product. It will eventually (one day) enter the public domain and become part of societies cultural heritage. In fact the very day it is published it is part of our cultural heritage and everyone has a right to access it. We made a deal with content makers however. They get a limited distribution monopoly as an incentive for them to make and publish their work.

      If they don't provide a mechanism for their work to enter the public domain then what the hell is the point of the deal? They welched on it and you can hardly be surprised when members of society stop respecting their artificial monopoly.

    111. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      this is exactly how sports stars get paid. They get paid a fortune by their employers, who recoup the money from TV companies, who.... (drum roll)
      CHARGE PEOPLE TO WATCH THE GAME. They charge for entry into the stadium, and they sell advertising space. They don't try to charge everyone who ever catches a glimpse of the game.

      And copyright doesn't RESTRICT PEOPLES FREEDOM. It makes certain things illegal to say. That's a restriction.

      In a country that has the patriot act, guantanomo bay and the TSA, you really think not being able to legally steal Spiderman 3 is the biggest threat to your freedom? get real. No one said it was the biggest. Surely you don't think there can only be three things restricting a person's freedom at once, do you?
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    112. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by phagstrom · · Score: 1

      I like steam too, because I think it is a fair trade. They get a fairly decent piracy protection and I get a single place to store my games without having to worry about finding a dvd, when I want to play...without having to remember some old obscure license key when I reformat and giving me updates without having to find them myself on some slow-ass site.

      So far my only real problem with steam is that some of the older games I have (bought "pre-steam") that are now available on steam can't be added to the steam system.

      The problem with many other protection systems, as I see it, is that they hassle the users who buy the game. Those who download a pirated version have no problems and often get a copy that's better than original. Why would they then go buy a copy, that is worse than what they got for free?

    113. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Most people aren't investors and don't plan to be. They don't want to shoulder all the risks that development brings, especially since they aren't in a position where they can properly research what the contracted company will do with the money. The current model allows you to know what the game is like before spending money on it, if you had to contract someone to make it you'd have to spend your money years before seeing a product, you wouldn't know if the product will turn out good or bad or if it'll stay in budget (or even get finished at all). What if the developer runs out of funding? Do you want to go around and ask everyone to pay more or do you just ship it incomplete (sure, happens all the time but the pay-after market at least hurts the profits of those who do)?

      Even worse, people who invest will expect to have some say over the direction it will take and when you've got a million people trying to move something into their own direction all you get is a mess.

      You could just go out and start a project with up-front payment right now, let's see how far you get. There's no reason you have to wait until copyright gets changed, test your theory NOW. My guess would be that the only people likely to invest into something are the investors (as they already have the experience and mindset to do so) who expect money in return, the regular people who just want a game don't want to invest, they want to buy because they prefer to get what they see.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    114. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 0

      You can repeat it as much as you want -- you still have no right to demand a service if someone is trying to sell a product. The seller has terms, and you can accept or reject. Simple. Yes, that would be simple. But the current reality isn't that simple, because the seller gets to impose his terms on everyone whether they choose to accept them or not.

      I'm not demanding that anyone provide a service. I'm only asking them to mind their business and avoid restricting my rights in order to prop up their ill-conceived business model. Selling their labor as a service is merely one way in which they could continue making money at what they do without having to restrict those rights. If I've been unclear about that, I apologize.

      Sorry to repeat that, but your arguments are just shocking. I'm sorry you're so shocked by the idea that someone might be opposed to copyright. You'll get over it soon enough. That's no excuse for the personal attacks, though, and the fact that you keep having to resort to those doesn't say much for your confidence in your argument.

      And you're free to conduct business under that model. You still have no right to demand that every other business do so. And you still have no right to help yourself to illegal, unpaid downloads of software and games. Look at what you just wrote. I have no right to demand that other people follow my model, you say, and in the next breath you let those same people demand that I follow their model by only exchanging information that they approve of?

      By making those "unpaid downloads" illegal, they're forcing their model on everyone. If your company's rule is that only paying customers get access to a certain file, you can enforce it at your expense, on your time and property. You wouldn't expect other businesses to accept Disney Dollars just to help Disney; why should they accept Disney's sharing policy?

      It already did! There are many multitudes of business models in existance, and almost no industries have chosen the model you proposed. The market has already spoken. A market with government-granted monopolies is hardly a place where different models can battle it out on equal footing.

      You keep confusing unrelated issues -- so far, pricing, restricting competition, and now monopoly. They're not unrelated; they're all related to copyright, which is a government-granted monopoly that restricts competition, keeping prices high.

      If you're selling discs with the number "123" burned onto them, I can legally compete with you. You don't have a monopoly on that product. I can start selling those "123" discs for less than you, and eventually we'll settle on a price just over the cost of burning a copy.

      However, if you're selling discs with a different number burned onto them -- a number representing a copyrighted program, let's say -- then you do have a monopoly, and I'm not allowed to compete in the market for that particular product. You're the only supplier, so there's no competitive pressure on your prices. See how that works?

      And who are the "rest of them"? The "millions (if not billions) of people" you mentioned (quoting from me) in the part I quoted immediately before writing that. When they sell products, they do it without the government assurance that no one else will be allowed to compete.

      (Well, trademarks and patents are also monopolies, and they apply to at least some of those products. But trademarks aren't objectionable, as long as they serve only to prevent fraud, and I'll withhold my views on patents to avoid shocking you even more.)
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    115. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by LilGuy · · Score: 1

      I agree. I will admit I did actually download a "cracked" copy of TF2 and tried it out. It didn't work very well but it gave me a sense of how the game played which was more than enough for me to go and buy it. But I didn't just buy TF2, I bought the whole orange box which was considerably more expensive in the store.

      But I don't see how this has as much to do with copy protection as it does releasing a shareware or demo version. Granted your attitude toward the publisher may factor into your decision to buy or steal, releasing playable demos before the main game so you can see if it is something you want to spend your money on is one of the big things missing today.

      I would agree however that I'd be much more willing to steal a game from EA than from Valve because I know from tons of past experiences that EA produces crap games and has a terrible track record of support, whereas Valve still releases updates for CS:S which was released YEARS ago.

      --

      You're nothing; like me.
    116. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Companies that care about their customers won't fault you for losing something. If someone buys my game 10 years ago, loses their key, forgets their email address and forgets when they bought it, and formats their PC they can STILL get a fresh copy of the game just by emailing me and proving they are the guy/gal in my database by knowing stuff like their full name and address.
      If I can do that as a one man company, why can't all games companies?


      Because the smaller the company the more they tend to care about not annoying their customers.

    117. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Most people aren't investors and don't plan to be. They don't want to shoulder all the risks that development brings, especially since they aren't in a position where they can properly research what the contracted company will do with the money. [etc.] Indeed. There's a niche that could be filled there: middlemen sifting through all the proposals out there and finding the good ones, coordinating payments, monitoring progress, and so on.

      You could just go out and start a project with up-front payment right now, let's see how far you get. There's no reason you have to wait until copyright gets changed, test your theory NOW. Well, Sellaband is already doing something similar for music. I don't expect that model to take off while copyright still exists in its present form, though. It's more convenient and familiar for people to buy prepackaged units of entertainment, even though that convenience is carved from the rights of those same people.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    118. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      I agree, losing a CD-Key would suck. Then you'd have to go through the hassle of contacting the company for a new one, where you'd probably have to pay for it. However, I've never lost one that I intended to keep. It's not hard to not lose a CD-key. Get a binder that holds CD's, pop the cd in the binder, put the key in the same slot. Problem solved.

    119. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpe · · Score: 1

      But they'd rather charge for copies than for the labor of game design... probably because they want to "strike it rich" if the game becomes a runaway hit.

      If it dosn't they stand to loose a lot of money. For this business model to work your "hits" have to more than cover your "misses". Depending on the exact ratio this may mean that the "hits" have to be extremely profitable for the business to just break even.

    120. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpe · · Score: 1

      For an example of how this works, look at political campaign web sites. Millions of people make small contributions that add up to millions of dollars, and they're not even guaranteed anything in return! Setting up a similar system for the development of software, music, etc. would be straightforward

      You also have lotteries and betting on sporting events.

    121. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      Apparently not simple enough for you. Dolt.

    122. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpe · · Score: 1

      i was looking at a completely broken business model to present to class. thanks. the problem with political campaigns? it's a gamble. that's okay for a campaign, but not for my dollars going toward a product the consumer wants. Businesses are about getting money up front to fund production of a product, then selling it at the market bearable price to recoup your costs. Customers don't like gambling away their product purchasing dollars.

      Many business models involve gambling. The "pay for something then attempt to make money from it" certainly does. Remember also that stock markets involve nothing except gambling.

    123. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whats criminal is that article. When doing a history report, you include history. that was a breif at best. Lenslok http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenslok - 8bit copy protection etc etc etc, lots an lots missing

    124. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by VoidCrow · · Score: 1

      You can buy a cracked copy of Maple from a prosaic Moscow market stall for the princely sum of odin rubl.

    125. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      That's why I always go for the pirated version, in most cases its superior.

      ~Dan

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    126. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Dan541 · · Score: 0, Troll

      That is one of the reasons I haven't bought Mathematica. I could buy the official version and then install the cracked one, but that also doesn't feel right. Your right it would be wrong to waste money like that.

      Using the cracked version and keeping the money would be a better compromise.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    127. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      If they don't provide a mechanism for their work to enter the public domain then what the hell is the point of the deal?
      But they aren't under any obligation to provide such a mechanism! They just can no longer exert any control over their works. Even if the law actually did say the public must be provided with a copy free from copy-protection measures (which it does not), these companies haven't yet welched (is that actually the correct spelling?) on their deal yet, because, as of yet, no copyright on software has expired.* They may still, if they are generous, start selling copy-protection-free copies after the copyright is expired, in which case they would fulfil this fictitious arrangement. In reality, when you pirate software (the royal you, you may not personally pirate), you are breaking the true deal with them.

      * I realise that by saying this, I am, in fact, indirectly pointing out why the current implementation of copyright is absurd when applied to software. Nevertheless, I maintain that this is a separate issue, one that needs to be solved in the form of awareness-raising and political campaigning. It makes little bearing on the fact that this is what we have now, and is the "agreement" that we've made.
      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    128. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      They generally sell $20-$30 software (though it's not a big difference, I agree). It's not worth it to steal such software for most of people.

      However, your argument works both ways, if your software costs $$$$ then there also will be more incentive to _crack_ it. And so far, I do not know ANY copy-protection system which can't be cracked. And I've seen cracked software which used absolutely paranoid copy protection systems.

    129. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mcvos · · Score: 1

      So you have problems with any copy protection, as long as it exclusively relies on "trust". Because of course copy-protection must raise hassels. There is some method of verifying you can run the software, and such methods can never be 100% accurate (there are lemons/shorts/ruination/reformats/internet outages/etc).

      And the end result is this makes a legal copy of the game less reliable than a pirated version of the game. It undermines the value of the game.

      It's not even about trust, it's about simple value for money. Publishers push potential customers towards piracy with increasingly invasive forms of DRM, harming their own market.

      The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. Even that would only mostly work, but it would work well enough to eliminate any other inconviences.

      You mean like consoles? Sure, locked down game consoles are an option, but there will always be a market for games on open platforms. If existing publishers leave that market, new ones will move in.
    130. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Arccot · · Score: 1

      it doesn't treat me like some criminal. I don't want my software to stop working because I had no internet access

      I especially think the "treating us as criminals" arguments is given way more weight than it's really worth. I mean, does anybody have a better idea about how to validate s/w as being legally purchased other than using some product activation mechanism (whether it works over the phone or net?)

      If you're looking for a better idea, here's one: If it's a single player game, don't have product activation. Period.

      Games are usually cracked within hours of release, if not before release. Look at Mass Effect, for example. It was cracked in a limited fashion within hours, and fully cracked in about a day of it's first staggered release. Most regions could get the cracked version before it was even released locally.

      Online activation adds no protection for the publishers and creates problems for legitimate users. What's the point?
    131. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "If only it were that simple. See, copyright restricts everyone's freedom. It forces everyone to participate in that business model, even the people who "don't fucking buy it"."

      How is everyone forced to participate? company X comes out with a new game. Customers that want the game are involved in the business model..and customers that don't aren't.

      "By the way, political campaigns also cost millions of dollars to run. Do you know how they're funded? (Hint: it's not by finding one person and asking him for a hundred million dollars. Nor is it by producing an ad with borrowed money and then hoping to recoup it by charging everyone who watches the ad.)"

      hint: it's through donations, which only works in certain situations. I guess there could be a new model. You "donate" $10 to a company and they give you a copy of their software.

      "Without copyright, you would be able to. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, because everyone would be free to share your proprietary application, disassemble it, and port your changes back into the open source code. RMS disagrees with me, but oh well."

      Money drives all thriving industries. With no copyrights, 99.9% of all commercial software would immediately go to service/web-based within a couple of months. I guess that will be better, because then there will be no argument here. You will have no code to share.

    132. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Not quite.

      It's true that political campaigns are funded by donations, yes. But the reason they're called donations is that you're not guaranteed anything in return. You don't know whether the candidate will spend your money on radio ads, fliers, etc., or even whether it'll be spent at all, and you certainly have no recourse if it gets spent on something you don't like."

      You say not quite..and then explain exactly what I was saying. Thanks for making my point.

      "If you do offer guarantees, however, then it's not a donation: it's payment for a service, which of course works quite well for businesses. You have a reasonably good idea of what you're getting in exchange for your money, and if the result doesn't measure up to what you were promised, you can demand your money back."

      I know. Again, my point. Donations don't work well for businesses, this is why they charge for services.

    133. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      the seller gets to impose his terms on everyone whether they choose to accept them or not Again, we covered this already. The law should protect against overreaching restrictions. And not accepting the terms means not buying the product -- so how will the seller impose their terms then?

      I'm only asking them to mind their business and avoid restricting my rights No, you are not -- you stated multiple times that you think you are entitled to a free copy of the 'ordering of bits'. You want your rights protected, but you're happy to tread on theirs.

      I have no right to demand that other people follow my model, you say, and in the next breath you let those same people demand that I follow their model by only exchanging information that they approve of? There you go again with your sense of entitlement. You have no right to access their product without paying what they ask. You can run your business by whatever model you choose. They will run theirs by whatever model they choose. You buy, or do not buy. You don't have any right to use their product without paying. How many different ways do you need this explained?

      By making those "unpaid downloads" illegal, they're forcing their model on everyone. The law makes it illegal -- the publisher didn't need to do anything.

      However, if you're selling discs with a different number burned onto them -- a number representing a copyrighted program, let's say -- then you do have a monopoly, and I'm not allowed to compete in the market for that particular product. You're the only supplier, so there's no competitive pressure on your prices. See how that works?

      Do you even believe that yourself? You can compete -- you just have to write your own program that does the same thing, instead of copying mine. Thereby, you avoid violating my copyright. Then depending on who's program is better one of us will make more money. That my friend, is the purpose of copyright -- each of us gets to reap the rewards of our efforts -- and we cannot leech of each other's work.

      From reading your comments, I don't think there's any chance we'll agree with each other any time soon. So let me just caution you that if you practice what you've been posting here, you might end up getting sued by someone (and you'll lose that case). i.e. you're ripping people off, and you need to at least be cautious so you don't get caught.

    134. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I don't expect that model to take off while copyright still exists in its present form, though. It's more convenient and familiar for people to buy prepackaged units of entertainment, even though that convenience is carved from the rights of those same people.

      Isn't the usual response to that that people get what they pay for and if they decide to pay for fewer rights but more certain products that's their decision?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    135. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by ShadowsHawk · · Score: 1

      Never say never. Nintendo is blocking people from copying their Smash brother: Brawl save game files. How long before consoles require you to be connected to a server to play?

    136. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I admit I didn't read the article, but for every new and ridiculous height publishers go to for copy-protection, there a new and ridiculous height that crackers go to, to break the protection and then they put the results on bittorrent. To me, the cat and mouse game that publishers and pirates continue to play could have been avoided. Don't get me wrong; I know that there are people who would pirate software no matter what. I'd still like to think that the average Joe would pay for something if the price reflected its worth and the methods of copy protection were non-intrusive. I certainly would pay for a good under those conditions.

      The problem starts when the publishers start getting paranoid over the small percentage of pirates who would never pay for their software. The problem is compounded if a publisher charges outrageous prices for its goods, significantly higher than they are worth. Then, they also have to worry about the people who can't afford it and decide to pirate it instead.

      If inflated price software is the problem, then the publishers have two options: lower prices to something more reasonable, or tighten copy protections. Of course, it's not a black and white choice: they could do seemingly infinite combinations of these two actions. Or, they could do nothing. It seems to me that the most notorious copy protections came about because the price of a good is more than its worth, the publishers refuse to lower that price, and they tighten copy protection schemes. This only serves to perpetuate that cat-and-mouse game mentioned above. In fact, these actions make things worse because then you get those who pirate the software purely out of spite, or because the pirated version is just less hassle.

      If the price is right, and there is such a small incidence of piracy for a certain game, the publishers need only do what most department stores do: accept that a percentage of people will expect something for nothing. Publishers have an advantage in that once the initial investment in coding the software is paid, they can mint the games in almost infinite capacity for a nominal cost. All they have to do is focus on selling enough copies to break even and convincing the public that they'll get more out of the game if they buy it legitimately. That's what "feelies" did back in the day. Of course that adds a bit more to the cost of production, but I'm sure there's some business formula out there that could factor in all these variables I've mentioned and spit out a reasonable price for a piece of software assuming a certain number of copies to break even.

      I'm not pointing the blame at any one party for the most ridiculous copy protection schemes we have today. I think that the publishers share the blame with the most hardcore pirates. Yes, I can see that piracy is a problem and I am not proud that I have contributed to the problem at times. However, I also see that software publishers have made some poor decisions in an effort to combat this problem, in fact making it worse. I stand today as one of many ACs and I say that if we can just ditch the invasive copy protections and just return to the days of activation codes and the occasional question about one of the feelies, I'd be more than happy to pay a fair price for a game or a piece of software.
    137. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by 16384 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I was referring to Maxima. For me a CAS is a place to do calculations, not a DTP or WYSIWIG editor, so that is not the problem, just its limitations. Sympy looks like a good idea, but it's still in early stages of development, I don't like sage (uses Maxima), and there isn't much left. Reduce is also expensive, and I don't know how good or bad it is.

    138. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by cliffski · · Score: 1

      what is it illegal to say? Please enlighten me.

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    139. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, this would result in the kind of games the customers actually want, instead of the endless streams of dross you get today... Movies are the same BTW... Endless sequels, shameless merchandising or half assed copies of existing games.

      You can also pay for a service - look at eve online for a good example.

      There needs to be some accountability for continued availability, there are many old pieces of software people would like to buy, but the original suppliers simply refuse to sell or even give away copies, despite the trivial costs of doing so. I think copyright law should be changed so that the vendor must continue to make the work available, at the same or lower cost than it was available previously, until such time as the copyright expires. Or give up the copyright early, release the work into the public domain and be free of the obligations. Copyright shouldn't be a one way street, it should have obligations on both sides. With software, when copyright expires the source code should be released too. And the copyright lengths need to be shorter, 90+ years is ridiculous especially for software, look how much computers have changed, will we even be able to run current programs in 90 years?

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    140. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by sjames · · Score: 1

      When you go through security checks at an airport (even without accounting for crazy post 9/11 levels of scrutiny

      Actually, I refuse to take a commercial flight EXACTLY because I resent paying to be treated like a sub-human criminal by a bunch of id10ts.

      Swiping your card for entry to your office building

      If the card fails, security lets me in immediately, addressing me by name and apologizing for the malfunction. That measure is just as useful to me as it is to them. I willingly accept a bit of hassle to keep my stuff safe. Software on my computer in my home refusing to run doesn't protect me at all.

      Having anti-theft devices attached to clothes, or in books so you can't leave a store without paying for them

      Yet, I've never been actually prevented from leaving the store for more than a second or even questioned when the tags don't get properly deactivated. The cashier runs over and corrects the error, I get a quick apology, and the tag is deactivated immediately.

      Having the dude at Best Buy's exit ask to see your receipt on random occasions, to make sure you've paid for the stuff you're exiting with

      I don't shop at Best Buy. Care to guess one of the reasons? I can sympathize with their desire to prevent shoplifting, but if they'd rather pat their customers down than look for shoplifters, I have no sympathy.

      The common thread in the above is that where I do accept it, the measure is either directly beneficial to me as well or a human being corrects the situation immediately without requiring any further proof from me. Where that doesn't happen, I do not accept the situation.

      It is also noteworthy that the situations above (except for the TSA security theater) are attempts to prevent actual theft as in we used to have X but now it's gone. Copyright infringement is not theft. If someone makes a copy of a game, there is no X that the publisher used to have but then does not.

      Ultimately if the publishers aren't able to come up with a better way, that's still no excuse for theft.

      I certainly never claimed otherwise. It's not an excuse for copyright violation either.

    141. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      You also don't get detailed specs when purchasing a game...
      You get some (usually biased) magazine reviews with a few screenshots, and sometimes a demo which is often the best level of the game with the rest being quite half assed.

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    142. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpe · · Score: 1

      Really, the only similarity between today's software industry and a manufacturing industry is that the design is done up front, and then the design costs are recouped by selling lots of copies. But that's not an inherent aspect of programming at all; it's an artifact of the attempt to force software into a manufacturing model which doesn't really apply.

      Not even all software is written this way anyway. Plenty is produced via the purely tertiary approach of "I want software to do X. How much will it cost?". It's only a subset of proprietary software which has decided to take a psudo-secondary approach.

    143. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      // They wanted to sell it to you for a certain price.

      Actually, this business model is completely broken under true capitalism...
      Under true free market capitalism, the fact that someone else is able to copy your product and sell it for lower cost will put you out of business.

      Not sure how to describe the system of government we have, but the idea of artificial government intervention to prop up the broken business models of a small number of companies is quite anti capitalist.

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    144. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      I don't want copy protection to be less useful than the pirated version.

      That requirement is nearly(?) impossible to fulfill.

      I have never used any copy-protected software where the copy protection didn't have some kind of downside or inconvenience to the user, though in some cases it has been fairly minor (e.g. having to re-enter my serial number whenever I juggle my volumes so much that Kohan for some reason thinks it's on a "new" computer).

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    145. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without copy-protection its just too easy for people to rip-off the publishers.

      Unfortunately, copy protection doesn't change that. With copy protection, it is just as easy for people to rip off the publishers, because no one has some up with a copy protection scheme that can't be cracked. Once cracked, it's out.

      Copy protection just makes everyone lose, except that it also encourages the creation of a communications system for legit users (the ones who have not ripped anyone off) to get the cracked product, so that they don't have to put up with the deliberate crippling. I'm not saying that wouldn't exist without copy protection, but it would be less mainstream and more clearly criminal/bad-faith rather than as ambiguous as it currently is.

    146. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Sure, a Ferrari won't cost $200k in raw materials, but each Ferrari produced will cost a significant amount of raw materials and labor to assemble it, test it, and transport it.

      On the other hand, each subsequent copy of a piece of digital media costs virtually nothing. You can even farm out the distribution to third parties (eg torrents, mirror sites) so that subsequent copies will cost you nothing whatsoever.

      A Ferrari may not cost $200k in raw materials, but it would probably cost you more than that to build one yourself because of all the specialist tools and training required.

      Software production is most definitely different, in many ways...

      It is possible to design a car for free, It is possible to design software for free.

      It is NOT possible to build a car for free since you need raw materials, It is possible to build software for free.

      To build a car you need specialist equipment which can't be free, To build software you can use specialist tools (compilers/debuggers as opposed to manually entering machine code) but these can be obtained for free.

      You can dismantle cars and reuse the parts for other purposes, but you still need to buy each part, you can't copy the parts easily without specialist tools.
      While it's perfectly possible to do the same with software, as well as easily duplicating the parts, vendors will often get in your way. Some software (eg open source) openly encourages you to reuse, modify and duplicate the parts.

      Cars typically have after market parts available for them too, software makers often discourage this, either by clamping down on modders or simply by not publishing the inner workings of their software sufficiently to allow third parties to produce replacement parts.
      The auto industry is mature enough, such that most parts are standardised and you're not forced to buy replacements from the original vendor. Whereas there is a lot of lock-in among software vendors still, because the market hasn't matured enough for the majority of people to realise how badly they're being screwed yet.

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    147. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by quanticle · · Score: 1

      The plural of anecdote is not data. As a university student, I know that I and many of my friends have downloaded cracked versions of software, simply because the software's activation scheme was so god-awfully unreliable, the cracked version was actually more useful than the legitimate version (MATLAB, I'm looking squarely at you). We paid for the software (sometimes directly, but usually through our university tuition), so why shouldn't we be able to use the software?

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    148. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



      Strongly disagreed

      It doesn't matter that it takes 1 cent to press a disk. How much did it cost to make the software, and how many disks did you sell? If your development cost was 10 million dollars, and you sold 10 million copies, you would have to charge at least $10 per disk to break even -- simple math.

      So, what you're saying is 10m x 10m = 10m?

      I think you mean either "$1 per disk" or "1 million copies" since selling 10 million copies at $10 per disk would mean you made $100 million, not $10 million.

      Simple math, indeed.
    149. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Laur · · Score: 1
      Your examples are poor and bear little relevance to software copy protection.

      * When you go through security checks at an airport (even without accounting for crazy post 9/11 levels of scrutiny
      A lot of people do object to the (mostly useless security theater) security checks at the airport, although you could make the argument that the airport is a private building (as in not open to the general public) so they have the right to put whatever checks in place that they want. Very different from someone making you jump through hoops to use your own personal property.

      * Swiping your card for entry to your office building
      Your office building is almost certainly a private building, so again they have the right to put whater checks in place that they want.

      * Having anti-theft devices attached to clothes, or in books so you can't leave a store without paying for them
      The anti-theft devices are installed while the items are still the property of the store. Once you purchase them the anti-theft devices are usually removed, or you can remove them yourself. This is very different from software copy protection, which tries to keep the anti-theft devices on after you've purchased the item!

      * Having the dude at Best Buy's exit ask to see your receipt on random occasions, to make sure you've paid for the stuff you're exiting with
      At last, a semi-decent example! Best Buy is a public building (this doesn't mean that they are owned by the public, it means that the general public can enter), so they have absolutely no right to search your person without your consent. Just walk on by that dude and don't surrender your rights so easily.
      --
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    150. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      As the grandparent said, "when we were younger"...
      As a kid, i wasn't especially affluent, and neither were my school friends. So we had the choice, buy a small number of games and run them on older hardware, or buy more/newer/better hardware with our limited funds and play a larger number of pirated games.
      Obviously we chose the latter, since it was simply better value for money. The smaller number of games we could have afforded to buy legitimately wouldn't have kept us entertained for anywhere near as long, and we would have been doing other things instead (like hanging around on street corners with knives).

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    151. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      And how about all those people in the UK who are being bombarded by advertisements from american websites, and talk about doom3 from their american friends and americans on websites like slashdot... Why should the british be artificially restricted from playing something that's available to americans? That sounds like racism to me...

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    152. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpe · · Score: 1

      Copy protection isn't suppose to stop hackers from stealing the games, it's suppose the slow them down long enough for the first few weeks to sales to pass which are extremely important to a game. A good example off the top of my head is the delay between Doom 3 being sold in the US and in the UK.

      Alternativly this is a good example of a publisher shooting themselves in the foot.

      It was downloaded in the UK on bit torrent over 3 million times or something before it even came out in England, are you (not parent) seriously telling me these people weren't going to buy it when it came out if there wasn't a free download?

      If there isn't a "legitimate source" available then it's very likely that there would be some "lost sales". This kind of behaviour is effectivly telling your customers that their money is no good because they are not in the right part of the planet... If you are stupid enough to turn away potential customers then you have only yourself to blame.

    153. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Then why don't they price them lower?

      The unit cost is ridiculously low, so even selling at $1 per copy would be profitable... But with much lower prices, they could make it up in volume. Those who would have bought it anyway will still do so, and probably buy more games as well with the savings (ie they will still spend a similar amount of money, just not all on one product)... Many people will impulse buy because the risk is low (if its crap, you only lost $10 not $50), many people will buy because it's more convenient than pirating.

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    154. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "he plural of anecdote is not data. As a university student, I know that I and many of my friends have downloaded cracked versions of software, simply because the software's activation scheme was so god-awfully unreliable, the cracked version was actually more useful than the legitimate version (MATLAB, I'm looking squarely at you). We paid for the software (sometimes directly, but usually through our university tuition), so why shouldn't we be able to use the software?"

      did you and each one of your friends purchase a valid license as well?

      If a large percentage of people were cracking software only because the activation system didn't work on their valid copy, businesses wouldn't be investing all kinds of money into copy-protection systems (there would be no point).

      The exception does not make the rule.

    155. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Enos+Shenk · · Score: 1

      Absolutely 100% correct. Adding extra value to the game ABOVE the software itself is a great way to get people to buy your game. Unfortunately, this is rarely done anymore. Remember the days when every game had some unique eye-catching box, and when you opened it up you got an honest-to-god MANUAL, maybe a book with some backstory? Not so nowdays, with every game packaged in the Industry Standard Box, with the Industry Standard 5-page manual. I would put my kudos in for Steam as well, for doing it right and simply staying the fuck out of the way. But I would also kudos cd keys, especially for games that are primarily wanted for multiplayer. For example, you could pirate a copy of UT3, and play the single-player campaign, but whats the fun in that? You buy a game like UT3 to play online, but if you dont have a legit CD key, tough cookies.

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    156. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Isn't the usual response to that that people get what they pay for and if they decide to pay for fewer rights but more certain products that's their decision? Well, the problem is the convenience is carved from the rights of everyone, including but not limited to the people who choose to buy that convenient software morsel. Even if I don't buy Photoshop, my speech and actions are still restricted for the sake of Adobe's profit margin.
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    157. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      what is it illegal to say? Please enlighten me. Anything that's copyrighted, unless you can beg permission from the copyright holder. HTH!
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    158. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Again, we covered this already. The law should protect against overreaching restrictions. That would mean abolishing copyright. Copyright is the restriction. Does this mean I've convinced you, or are you suggesting there's some way to enforce copyright without restricting anyone's speech or actions?

      No, you are not -- you stated multiple times that you think you are entitled to a free copy of the 'ordering of bits'. You want your rights protected, but you're happy to tread on theirs. No, that's not what I've been saying. Let me try to clear up your misconception: I'm only entitled to a free copy if someone is willing to give me one. I can't force anyone to give me a copy against their will.

      That isn't treading on anyone else's rights. It's asking them to stop treading on my rights and the rights of anyone who chooses to offer me a free copy. I won't tell them what data they're allowed to send over their internet connection, and in return I ask for them not to tell me what data I'm allowed to send over my internet connection.

      You don't have any right to use their product without paying. How many different ways do you need this explained? It's not that you haven't explained it enough, it's that what you're claiming runs counter to common sense. I do have the right to run any program that comes into my possession. A program is a number, which no one owns; and if I happen to know that number, I'm entitled to input it into my computer, which I own.

      To say otherwise is to give someone else the power to restrict what I can do in my own home with my own property - something you just said you were against.

      You can compete -- you just have to write your own program that does the same thing, instead of copying mine. Thereby, you avoid violating my copyright. You're assuming that there's always a perfect substitute, but that's not always the case. If I feel like playing Doom, I'm not going to settle for Duke Nukem. If I need an OS to run some Windows applications, I'm not going to install Linux.

      So let me just caution you that if you practice what you've been posting here, you might end up getting sued by someone (and you'll lose that case). i.e. you're ripping people off, and you need to at least be cautious so you don't get caught. The odds of being sued for file sharing are ridiculously low, about the same as dying in an accidental fall. Frankly, downloading a torrent might be safer than driving to the store to buy a legal copy.
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    159. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      How is everyone forced to participate? company X comes out with a new game. Customers that want the game are involved in the business model..and customers that don't aren't. Let's say I run a web hosting service, and one of my users uploads a copy of that new game to his public folder. Now I have to enforce Company X's copying policies on their behalf, even though I don't give a rat's ass about the game. They've dragged me into their business model against my will.

      But everyone is dragged in, to some extent. Everyone is forced to limit their speech and actions, whether they buy the game or not, because copyright makes it illegal to say certain things to other people or burn certain numbers to a disc without permission.

      hint: it's through donations, which only works in certain situations. I guess there could be a new model. You "donate" $10 to a company and they give you a copy of their software. Huh. From your other comment, I thought you understood the difference between donating and paying for a service, but I guess not.

      Anyway, the model you overlooked is this: programmers offer their services and name a price, and then thousands or millions of people pay (or agree to pay) a small amount toward that goal, until the programmers have collected enough money to start. (They find their paying customers before the software exists, obviously; you can't pay someone to go back in time and write something that's already been written.) Once the software is finished, there are no restrictions on sharing it.

      With no copyrights, 99.9% of all commercial software would immediately go to service/web-based within a couple of months. If they thought they could get away with that, they would've done it already.
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    160. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by borg_cube · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what happens when one day in the (hopefully) distant future, steam's servers go dark permanently. Will you still be able to play the games that you've bought, or are you really just renting them?

    161. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by rabtech · · Score: 1

      If only the rest of us got that luxury! Maybe barbers would like to be paid based on the number of people who compliment you on your haircut. The barber doesn't need to pay for all the haircuts he gave that no one complimented. Let that sink in for a minute.

      I know it is trendy to blame publishers for giving all these flop-projects money, but I know people in the publishing business and they have developers come to them with great ideas, good concept art, etc, who then after a year or two and a lot of money produce a game that just isn't very much fun. The "hit" games need to cover not only their production cost and some profit, but they also need to cover the creative ventures that didn't go anywhere.

      You can't reduce the creative process to some formula; anyone who thinks they can always predict whether something will be a success or not is someone who isn't doing anything interesting (read: taking risks). I've looked over some examples of this myself from my publisher friends and if I were in their shoes, I would have green-lit the game too... but the end product was a piece of junk.

      Granted, you can go way too far down that road like the big record companies, where you try to manufacture hits and shove artists down the public's throat, but even the best-managed record/movie/game/etc company will bet on the wrong horse some of the time. Game publishers don't even have the benefit of being able to go observe the developers in action at small local clubs like musicians or see them in a local theater company like you could with an actor. You have to take a lot on faith.
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    162. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by quanticle · · Score: 1

      did you and each one of your friends purchase a valid license as well?

      Indeed we did. Well, not directly, but the University bought licenses to cover its engineering students, and my lab fees contributed to that.

      If a large percentage of people were cracking software only because the activation system didn't work on their valid copy, businesses wouldn't be investing all kinds of money into copy-protection systems (there would be no point).

      Either that, or they don't care, because their software is "industry standard", and consumers have few other alternatives. Photoshop, Maya, Microsoft Office, MATLAB/Mathematica all fit the bill here.

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    163. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's up to the govt./courts to step in and define our (consumer's) rights clearly to make sure our rights don't get trampled on by these copy-protection mechanisms.

      But, as the Congress and the courts refuse to act in such a way as to protect my defined rights, but rather kowtow to the very wealthy corporations, I'll do what it fucking takes to exercise my rights.

      And, if you have ever gone so much as one mph over the posted speed limit, don't lay any sanctimonious shit on me about picking and choosing (as though there were a difference between those words) what laws I will obey.

    164. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      STEAM actually gives you the option to backup your games. You can also play your games in offline mode.

    165. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed, but you seem confused by your simple math. If costs (including all that other stuff) were $10 million and you sold 10 million copies, you'd only have to charge $1 not $10.

    166. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by jambarama · · Score: 1

      The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. Even that would only mostly work... Sounds like a console to me.
    167. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Let's say I run a web hosting service, and one of my users uploads a copy of that new game to his public folder. Now I have to enforce Company X's copying policies on their behalf, even though I don't give a rat's ass about the game. They've dragged me into their business model against my will."

      It has more to do with a business's rights than their business model. Here is an example where copyrights might help you and your web hosting company (call it web hosting X). You are running a .com. Another company decides to call themselves web hosting X and buy up the .net. They are now selling the exact same service as you, but with very poor service (and your reputation is now gone as a hosting provider).

      Copyrights allow you to get them shutdown or change their name.

      "But everyone is dragged in, to some extent. Everyone is forced to limit their speech and actions, whether they buy the game or not, because copyright makes it illegal to say certain things to other people or burn certain numbers to a disc without permission."

      Sharing proprietary software illegally != freedom of speech. And what are these certain numbers that are deemed illegal? The 1-billion binary numbers that may make up a piece of software?

      "Huh. From your other comment, I thought you understood the difference between donating and paying for a service, but I guess not"

      Can you really not tell when someone is being sarcastic?

      "If they thought they could get away with that, they would've done it already."

      If they are forced to because copyright goes away, they will find a way to make their application a service. Turbo tax did (and any other have followed).

      If copyrights and patents were gone, our world would be even more protected and proprietary than before. Mainly because companies would have to go to great lengths to protect their property.

      There really is a simple solution: don't download commercial software from pirate sites that you aren't willing to buy. If you do, and use it (or listen/watch it), you find value in it and the original author should be compensated.

    168. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Copyright is the restriction. It's more fine-grained than that. Let me explain in detail:
      • I created a song, therefore I automatically have a copyright on it
      • I can offer to sell you an MP3 of the song for $1 if I wish
      • You can accept or reject this offer
      • If you don't like the price, you still can't download the song for free -- that violates my rights
      • You might still try to do that, so I might use DRM to protect my rights
      • The DRM might restrict you to burning to a CD only 5 times, violating your rights. The law should disallow this.
      • The DRM scheme might be proprietary, not licensed under favorable terms, limiting compatibility and consumer choice. The law should disallow this.
      • The DRM might prevent you from re-selling the song (like selling a CD you no longer listen to). The law should disallow this (i.e. you should be able to re-sell it)
      • If you re-sell the song to someone, your copy of it should no longer work. The DRM scheme can be used to enforce that, again, preventing you from violating my rights
      • Generaically speaking, the DRM scheme might place xyz restriction on you (overreaching - trampling on your rights) - the law should disallow this.
      • Bottom line: You have rights (fair-use rights). The law needs to identify them clearly, and state that any DRM scheme must honor them. That's how both our rights get enforced. No DRM scheme in existence does that, and that's why we need these laws.

      I'm only entitled to a free copy if someone is willing to give me one. Let me correct that for you: You're only entitled to a free copy if the copyright holder is willing to give you one.

      It's asking them to stop treading on my rights and the rights of anyone who chooses to offer me a free copy. You never had the right to get a free copy from 'anyone who chooses to offer' it. This 'anyone who chooses to offer it' never had the right to offer it to you for free, unless they have the express, written consent of the copyright holder. This is the fundamental sense of entitlement you seem to have where you're conferring upon yourself rights that you simply don't have.

      A program is a number, which no one owns; and if I happen to know that number, I'm entitled to input it into my computer, which I own. A dollar note is just a pattern that no one owns. A car is a particular grouping of molecules that no one owns. A painting is a grouping of colors that nobody owns. A book is a grouping of words that nobody owns. This argument makes no sense. A program/song/movie is a product being sold to you under certain terms. You can accept or reject. You are choosing to steal, and deluding yourself about it.

      To say otherwise is to give someone else the power to restrict what I can do in my own home with my own property The program was never your property. Get this into your head -- the program is not your property until you buy it. Not steal it, but buy it. Plus your analogy fails. Your car is your property. Yet you cannot rollback it's odometer (for example). There are many other things that are illegal for you to do on/to your own property. This line of reasoning will get you nowhere.

      If I feel like playing Doom, I'm not going to settle for Duke Nukem. If I need an OS to run some Windows applications, I'm not going to install Linux. Then agree to the terms, and buy Windows. Or disagree, and don't use that application. Those are your options. You have no god-given right to download windows for free and run it in

      The odds of being sued for file sharing are ridiculously low, about the same as dying in an accidental fall. Frankly, downloading a torrent might be safer than driving to the store to buy a legal copy. That's not the point. The point is whether you recognize that you're ripping people off, and are on the wrong side of the law in every way.
    169. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Your examples are poor and bear little relevance to software copy protection You didn't pay attention to the parent post I was refuting then. This are examples of where people allow themselves to be "treated like criminals". Parent's point was "Irrelevant! People have a right to not be treated like a criminal until proven otherwise."

      The anti-theft devices are installed while the items are still the property of the store The store is still treating you like a criminal.

      Just walk on by that dude and don't surrender your rights so easily. You walked through metal detectors on the way in, and again on the way out. You were treated like a criminal.
    170. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Actually, I refuse to take a commercial flight EXACTLY because I resent paying to be treated like a sub-human criminal by a bunch of id10ts.

      Right -- makes sense. And if you use say, Linux instead of Windows for the same reason, that would make sense too. And only buying non-DRM'd music for that reason makes sense too. That's a principled approach and I respect that.

      If you check the thread, along the way, posters are trying to use "being treated like a criminal" as an excuse to justify piracy. That's what I have a problem with. i.e. they can't say "I hate that WGA treats me like a criminal, therefor I shall pirate windows". Or "I hate that iTunes treats me like a criminal, therefore I'll download songs from limewire".

    171. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Wow.. I just noticed this in your post:

      Competition would mean I can buy a song for 10 cents from AllOfMP3 instead of for $1 from iTunes, and competitive pressure would eventually push the price down to just above zero (since that's the marginal cost of a copy).

      If AllOfMP3 were forwarding a cut of the profits to the artists, and have prior written consent, then and only then are they authorized to actually sell the songs. Until then they're getting fat off the work done by the artists. They're even worse than the music labels because none of that money makes it back to the artists -- it only goes into a pirates pocket.

      Competition my ass. This would just mean that artists have a choice between starvation and an alternate career choice.

    172. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      And so far, I do not know ANY copy-protection system which can't be cracked.

      But cracks carry with them the risk of future updates not applying, missing functionality, trojans, etc.

      Plus, copy-protection is an 80-20 approach like anything else. As long as you can make sure 80% (or some similarly high percentage) of your customer base actually paid for your product, you can recover some of your losses in pricing. It's an example of how people who indulge in piracy actually make the honest ones pay more -- another reason I find some of the arguments on this thread so specious.

    173. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Then why don't they price them lower? Price what lower? Games, movies, operating systems?

      The unit cost is ridiculously low, so even selling at $1 per copy would be profitable The unit cost is a lot higher than that, depending on what it is you're selling. How did you arrive at $1?

      But with much lower prices, they could make it up in volume.

      There's no doubting that you need to price your products correctly, but simply stating that volume compensates for lower prices is oversimplifying, and doesn't have any data to stand on, don't you agree? I mean, if you propose lowering the price of games from $50 to $10, you need to increase sales by 500% to compensate!

      And even then, as $10 becomes the norm people will start complaining that it's too high, and maybe if the game cost $2 then nobody will pirate it, and the publishers can make up the difference in volume, etc.

    174. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Here is an example where copyrights might help you and your web hosting company (call it web hosting X). You are running a .com. Another company decides to call themselves web hosting X and buy up the .net. They are now selling the exact same service as you, but with very poor service (and your reputation is now gone as a hosting provider).

      Copyrights allow you to get them shutdown or change their name. Actually, that'd be a trademark, not a copyright.

      I have no objection to trademarks, because they prevent fraud more than restricting speech. That competitor would be essentially lying to their customers by using my name, implying that my reputation is attached to their service, and a trademark would prevent that. But the trademark only lets me interfere with their speech when it's misleading and fraudulent. (For example, they could compare their service to mine in an advertisement, calling me out by name.)

      Sharing proprietary software illegally != freedom of speech. Sure it is. If I'm speaking or transmitting something, that's my speech. And if the law says I can't say a certain thing, it's restricting my speech.

      And what are these certain numbers that are deemed illegal? The 1-billion binary numbers that may make up a piece of software? Yup. Those are numbers too.

      If they are forced to because copyright goes away, they will find a way to make their application a service. Turbo tax did (and any other have followed). You're making my point for me. TurboTax did that because they thought they could get away with it. No one forced them, and copyright law didn't change.

      If copyrights and patents were gone, our world would be even more protected and proprietary than before. Mainly because companies would have to go to great lengths to protect their property. No, they wouldn't. It's only treated like "property" in the first place because copyright subsidizes the business models that treat information as property. But if you've already been paid for writing something, because you asked for money when you did the work instead of praying to earn some money later by selling copies, you don't need to "protect" it anymore.
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    175. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      The barber doesn't need to pay for all the haircuts he gave that no one complimented. Likewise, the game publisher doesn't need to pay for all the copies that people downloaded illegally. All they need to pay for, other than the cost of producing the physical copies that they sell, is the one-time cost of developing the game. That cost has already been incurred by the time anyone has a chance to download the game.

      (And actually, a barber does pay for those haircuts... he pays with his own time. For each one. Unlike a game publisher, which has zero marginal cost for every additional copy.)
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    176. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      If you don't like the price, you still can't download the song for free -- that violates my rights Not under any reasonable definition of your "rights", it doesn't. Downloading the song doesn't affect you. It doesn't take anything away from you, it doesn't require you to get involved or do any extra work, and there's no way for you to even know that it happened without looking at my hard drive.

      Claiming that it still "violates your rights" presumes that you're somehow entitled to tell other people what they can or can't download -- which is begging the question, since that's exactly the subject of debate here.

      The DRM scheme can be used to enforce that, again, preventing you from violating my rights Again, you presume that you have the right to tell me what I can or can't listen to in the first place.

      You never had the right to get a free copy from 'anyone who chooses to offer' it. This 'anyone who chooses to offer it' never had the right to offer it to you for free, unless they have the express, written consent of the copyright holder. This is the fundamental sense of entitlement you seem to have where you're conferring upon yourself rights that you simply don't have. Ah, I see. You don't believe in a right to free expression and communication. You'll tolerate other people's speech, as long as it doesn't interfere with your bottom line. Is that about right?

      The program was never your property. Get this into your head -- the program is not your property until you buy it. The program isn't anyone's property. It's a sequence of bits, a number, a pattern. To treat it as something that can belong to anyone is as absurd as saying you can own the number 31337, the color burnt sienna, or the word "blog".

      It's an idea, which everyone can freely use at the same time without interfering with any other use, not an object that can only be in one place at a time and thus needs an owner to decide how it'll be used.

      The computer, however, is undoubtedly my property. Copyright means giving third parties veto power over what I'm allowed to do with that property.

      Then agree to the terms, and buy Windows. Or disagree, and don't use that application. So then, we agree that copyright gives Microsoft a monopoly on Windows? Glad that's cleared up.

      That's not the point. The point is whether you recognize that you're ripping people off, and are on the wrong side of the law in every way. I'm quite aware of the current status of copyright law, but thanks for the concern.
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    177. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      If AllOfMP3 were forwarding a cut of the profits to the artists, and have prior written consent, then and only then are they authorized to actually sell the songs. Uh huh.. and if they did that, the labels would take such a big cut that AllOfMP3 was no longer competitive. That's what happens when someone gets a monopoly: they keep the price artificially high.

      Competition my ass. This would just mean that artists have a choice between starvation and an alternate career choice. Well, no. Like I've been saying, they can choose to get paid for making art instead of for making copies, and then they won't have to worry about who's downloading free copies, because they will have already been paid for the time they put into making it.
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    178. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Downloading the song doesn't affect you. It doesn't take anything away from you It deprives me of the income you should have paid me.

      Claiming that it still "violates your rights" presumes that you're somehow entitled to tell other people what they can or can't download Not at all -- just that you owe me money for my song.

      Again, you presume that you have the right to tell me what I can or can't listen to in the first place. Listen to anything you want -- nobody cares. Just pay me for my song instead of stealing from me.

      Ah, I see. You don't believe in a right to free expression and communication. You'll tolerate other people's speech, as long as it doesn't interfere with your bottom line. Is that about right? No, it's completely wrong. Did you just equate piracy with free speech?!? All because you're too cheap to pay me for my song?

      The program isn't anyone's property. It's a sequence of bits, a number, a pattern. So is the power in your mains - an AC signal of known amplitude and frequency. You still owe the power company for that pattern. So are the words in a book - just a pattern of charachters. Your argument is hollow -- the program is property.

      The computer, however, is undoubtedly my property. Copyright means giving third parties veto power over what I'm allowed to do with that property. No, it only gives them the right to set terms on the sale of their property.

      So then, we agree that copyright gives Microsoft a monopoly on Windows? Glad that's cleared up. That makes no sense whatsoever. MS makes an OS called Windows. Windows may or may not have a monopoly in OSes. You are free to make your own OS and compete with MS. Windows is MS's property to sell under the terms it sees fit. Call it anything you want, but your options are simply to buy or do not buy. Using without buying is piracy.
    179. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Uh huh.. and if they did that, the labels would take such a big cut that AllOfMP3 was no longer competitive.
      • The labels have every right to do that for their songs
      • They might price themselves out of the market that way -- but it's their own fault.
      • They might alienate customers that way -- but it's their own fault.
      • You still have no right to steal from them.
      • Allofmp3.com still has no right to sell the songs without authorization
      • However unpopular the labels might be, they are still forwarding a tiny sliver of the money back to the artists, unlike Allofmp3 that just gets fat.

      Well, no. Like I've been saying, they can choose to get paid for making art instead of for making copies, and then they won't have to worry about who's downloading free copies, because they will have already been paid for the time they put into making it. And like I've been saying, you are free to sell your own songs that way if you want, but you have no right to insist that all other artists in the world do that, and you certainly have no right to rip them off by downloading free copies of their songs, unless they said it was ok.
    180. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "You're making my point for me. TurboTax did that because they thought they could get away with it. No one forced them, and copyright law didn't change."

      I was only pointing out that turbo tax went to a service based app...not that the copyright laws have changed. They could and did get away with it..and as more and more households get high-speed internet, so will more companies.

      "No, they wouldn't. It's only treated like "property" in the first place because copyright subsidizes the business models that treat information as property."

      Yes, they would. Software companies would still sell software, but they would find some other way to protect their investment. This might mean software as a service or maybe even more locked down hardware (which would still be crackable, but as long as the average user couldn't easily defeat it, would still be a viable option. This seems to be working pretty well for the satellite companies, although they have had their fair share of hardware getting cracked in the past).

      "But if you've already been paid for writing something, because you asked for money when you did the work instead of praying to earn some money later by selling copies, you don't need to "protect" it anymore."

      You still have no viable reason for abolishing copyright besides this selfish view of the world where you seem to think you are owed everything for free.

      If a company wants to invest a million dollars into the development of software, only to be "subsidized" by the people that purchase it, so be it. They are also the ones that lose that million dollars if there is no market for it or it just doesn't sell (but you never seem to talk about this fact). Selling movies or albums also carries that same risk.

    181. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      It deprives me of the income you should have paid me. Begging the question. That money isn't owed to you just because you want it. You can't be deprived of my money.

      Not at all -- just that you owe me money for my song. And if I don't give you that money... you presume you're entitled to tell me not to download it. Like I said.

      No, it's completely wrong. Did you just equate piracy with free speech?!? Sharing information is free speech. If you want to stop me from sharing certain information in order to make money, that means you care more about your bottom line than my freedom to communicate.

      So is the power in your mains - an AC signal of known amplitude and frequency. You still owe the power company for that pattern. So are the words in a book - just a pattern of charachters. Your argument is hollow -- the program is property. I owe the power company for the service of pushing electrons through a wire, not for the information contained in the waveform.

      The words in a book are a pattern, yes, just like software. And that means they aren't property either.

      No, it only gives them the right to set terms on the sale of their property. Oh, so now you agree that I have the right to burn whatever sequence of bits to a disc I want, regardless of whether any third party gives me permission? After all, that only involves my property, not theirs, and certainly doesn't involve any kind of sale.

      MS makes an OS called Windows. Windows may or may not have a monopoly in OSes. Right, but they obviously do have a monopoly in the particular OS known as "Windows". No one else is allowed to sell a disc containing the same number that's on a Windows disc. When only one firm is allowed to sell a certain product, that's a monopoly no matter how you dress it up.
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    182. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      And like I've been saying, you are free to sell your own songs that way if you want, but you have no right to insist that all other artists in the world do that, and you certainly have no right to rip them off by downloading free copies of their songs, unless they said it was ok. So, it's the same old double standard. They get to impose their will on me, supposedly, by telling me what I can or can't download, but I don't get to impose my will on them. Sounds like a cushy deal, as long as you're on their side of it.
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    183. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Yes, they would. Software companies would still sell software, but they would find some other way to protect their investment. What investment? If they got paid for developing it, there is no investment. The money has changed hands and the job is done.

      You still have no viable reason for abolishing copyright besides this selfish view of the world where you seem to think you are owed everything for free. That is so completely opposite from what I've been saying that I can only conclude you haven't been reading the thread at all.

      As I've stated repeatedly, my opposition to copyright comes from the fact that copyright drags unwilling participants into a flawed business model, restricting everyone's freedom for the benefit of a relative handful of copyright holders.

      I've never said anyone is "owed" anything for free, and personally I have no objection to paying for production (or even for recordings, on occasion). The proposals I've laid out here and elsewhere are designed to help artists keep making money without having to seize anyone else's rights -- if I were as cheap and selfish as this caricature you've invented, I wouldn't be concerned about that.

      If a company wants to invest a million dollars into the development of software, only to be "subsidized" by the people that purchase it, so be it. They are also the ones that lose that million dollars if there is no market for it or it just doesn't sell (but you never seem to talk about this fact). Selling movies or albums also carries that same risk. Yes, that's true, they face the unnecessary risk of losing their investment. That risk would go away if they'd charge for production, of course.

      If it were only that company's fortunes at stake, then I'd have no objection. But the problem is, they're not the only ones who lose. Everyone is forced to play along, facing restrictions on their speech and actions just so this company with the broken business model can roll the dice and pray to strike it rich. Even if the company wins, everyone else still loses: we don't get our freedoms back when the company recoups their investment. They're gone forever (well, for life + 70 years, as long as the copyright terms aren't retroactively extended before then).
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    184. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by sjames · · Score: 1

      I fully agree it doesn't justify copyright violation. I just wanted to clarify that it is a very good reason to refuse to do business with some entity if at all practical.

    185. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      That money isn't owed to you just because you want it. The song isn't yours because you want it. The money is owed to me for the song I sold you.

      you presume you're entitled to tell me not to download it. No, you presume you're entitled to download it without paying me.

      Sharing information is free speech. And stealing a product is still theft. You want free speech -- go record your own song instead of stealing mine.

      I owe the power company for the service of pushing electrons through a wire, not for the information contained in the waveform. Whatever dude -- you paid for a pattern. You can be pedantic about it in one context but see the bigger picture in another. Real convenient.

      The words in a book are a pattern, yes, just like software. And that means they aren't property either. I recommend you try to walk out of Barnes and Noble with your next book -- but just pay them the actual cost of the paper and printing -- 5 cents (perhaps less). After all, the words are not property in your universe..

      Oh, so now you agree that I have the right to burn whatever sequence of bits to a disc I want, regardless of whether any third party gives me permission? After all, that only involves my property, not theirs, and certainly doesn't involve any kind of sale. Correct -- just don't download stuff illegally. What part of that didn't you get? I even specifically called it out when I said you should be able to burn limitless copies of the songs (and by extension games, applications) you own -- your 'fair use' needs to be protected. (yes, yours too, much as it disgusts me). You still don't have the right to download stuff illegally. And you can't sell these limitless burned copies without the express consent of the copyright holder. There see? Both party's rights get protected. Neither party's rights are absolute.

      Right, but they obviously do have a monopoly in the particular OS known as "Windows". No one else is allowed to sell a disc containing the same number that's on a Windows disc. When only one firm is allowed to sell a certain product, that's a monopoly no matter how you dress it up. Oh good greif. You know what? Just to make some headway, I'll concede this point to you. After all, going by the dictionary definition of monopoly, there is the exclusive 'right' to do something. But in all fairness the original context in which monopoly was brought up was an economic one -- and there monopoly is measured over markets. Plus, even for the exclusivity point, so what? The vendor has rights. Exclusive or otherwise. They created the product -- they have the exclusive right to profit from it -- simple.
    186. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      But only if you want to have Photoshop. The actions you lose is to download Photoshop without paying Adobe which isn't anything major and I'm sure the people who buy Photoshop don't care that other people can't get it for free.

      --
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    187. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      So, it's the same old double standard. They get to impose their will on me, supposedly, by telling me what I can or can't download, but I don't get to impose my will on them. Sounds like a cushy deal, as long as you're on their side of it. No, it's the same situation where:
      • They have rights that need to be protected
      • You have rights that need to be protected
      • Their rights are not absolute
      • Your rights are not absolute
      • So they can lay down terms and conditions to the sale: but only on their product, and only in ways that don't trample your rights
      • And you are free to do as you please, as long as you don't trample on their rights

      Now do you get it?

    188. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      simple math? if u sold 10 million copies at $10 that would be 100 million... 10 times your development cost...

    189. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by mpeskett · · Score: 1

      I tried to pirate TF2 and it didn't work out so well... everything was in Russian and I couldn't connect to any servers without a Steam account.

      Legit product was superior (being in the right language and being playable and all) so I paid for it. The problem is when there's no advantage to the legit copy (be it in the form of added value, or the warm and fuzzies from supporting some people who made a cool game) but it still costs more and makes things harder for you via DRM.

    190. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Laur · · Score: 1

      You didn't pay attention to the parent post I was refuting then.
      I'm not sure you paid attention to my point. My point is that there is a big difference between security checks and a store's loss prevention, and a private business trying to control what you do in your own home with your personal property that you paid good money for.

      The store is still treating you like a criminal.
      Perhaps, but it doesn't inconvenience me in the least, so I don't really mind. The only way the anti-theft devices could inconvenience me was if I actually was a criminal. I think the difference here is that people recognize that some people visiting a store will be criminals, so it is reasonable for the store to take reasonable precautions against them. However, once you prove that you are NOT a criminal by paying for the item, the store is more than happy to remove any and all restrictions and thank you for your purchase. Copy protection, one the other hand, continues to treat you like a criminal even after you've purchased the item, and will continue to do so for ever and ever! That is what people object to. See the difference? One is reasonable, the other is not.

      You walked through metal detectors on the way in, and again on the way out. You were treated like a criminal.
      But the metal detectors did not inconvenience me in any way, nor did they try to control what I do with my personal property, nor do they take away any of my rights that I can see. I doubt people would mind much if copy protection was not inconvenient, but of course that is impossible, it's designed to be inconvenient and take away your rights. As I said, unauthorized searches of my person are inconvenient, and they violate my rights as well, so I rightly object to them.
      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    191. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by rtechie · · Score: 1

      The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. This doesn't seem to work for game consoles. They are loaded with anti-circumvention features which have been circumvented. Most famously Microsoft claimed the original XBOX was impossible to mod and it ended up being the most moddable game console in history. There were mod chips for the wii even before it launched.

    192. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      The actions you lose is to download Photoshop without paying Adobe which isn't anything major Well, it's arguable how "major" that is, but that's not the only restriction. For example, if I run a web hosting service and one of my customers chooses to upload a copy of Photoshop to his account, I have to take time out of my day to enforce Adobe's copying policy for them, even if I've never been an Adobe customer and I have no interest in Photoshop myself.
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    193. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      * So they can lay down terms and conditions to the sale: but only on their product, and only in ways that don't trample your rights
              * And you are free to do as you please, as long as you don't trample on their rights

      Now do you get it? Nope. You still haven't explained what gives them the "right" to tell me what I can do with my internet connection, or how imposing their will on me counts as "terms and conditions to the sale" when I'm not their customer and haven't bought anything from them.
      --
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    194. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      * So they can lay down terms and conditions to the sale: but only on their product, and only in ways that don't trample your rights
      * And you are free to do as you please, as long as you don't trample on their rights
      Now do you get it? Nope. You still haven't explained what gives them the "right" to tell me what I can do with my internet connection, or how imposing their will on me counts as "terms and conditions to the sale" when I'm not their customer and haven't bought anything from them.
    195. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1
      *hit submit accidentally on the other post*

      * So they can lay down terms and conditions to the sale: but only on their product, and only in ways that don't trample your rights
      * And you are free to do as you please, as long as you don't trample on their rights

      Now do you get it?
      Nope. You still haven't explained what gives them the "right" to tell me what I can do with my internet connection, or how imposing their will on me counts as "terms and conditions to the sale" when I'm not their customer and haven't bought anything from them.

      I did explain -- you just refuse to see it. Your right to do stuff with your 'net connection is not absolute. You cannot use it in a way that infringes their rights. Next thing you're going to claim child pornography is just a number and nobody has the right to tell you what you can do with your 'net connection.

      In the same vein, their right to protect their copyright is not absolute. They cannot infringe on your rights while trying to protect their copyright.

      Now do you get it?

    196. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      And stealing a product is still theft. Copying information, however, is not. At best, it's a neutered version that's missing the one and only thing that makes real theft objectionable.

      Whatever dude -- you paid for a pattern. You can be pedantic about it in one context but see the bigger picture in another. Real convenient. No, once again, what I pay the power company for is not the pattern. I can draw a 60 Hz waveform and share that drawing with as many people as I want, and the power company won't complain. I can build a battery-powered device to generate exactly the same waveform, and again, they won't complain. What I'm paying them for is the electrical power, not the right to use a particular shape.

      I recommend you try to walk out of Barnes and Noble with your next book -- but just pay them the actual cost of the paper and printing -- 5 cents (perhaps less). After all, the words are not property in your universe.. The book is property, and they can charge whatever they want for it: it's a physical object, and I can't take it without depriving them of it.

      You still don't have the right to download stuff illegally. And you can't sell these limitless burned copies without the express consent of the copyright holder. Or give them away, presumably. So those discs, which I bought and burned myself, somehow stop being my property as soon as I burn them, because I'm allowed to give them away (or sell them) before I burn them but not afterward. Funny how that works.

      They created the product -- they have the exclusive right to profit from it -- simple. I suppose you think Newton's heirs should have an exclusive right to profit from anything that was developed using calculus too, then. What a dismal world that would be.

      Of course, copyright isn't limited to profit anyway. Noncommercial sharing is also illegal, but I'm sure you knew that.
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    197. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I did explain -- you just refuse to see it. Your right to do stuff with your 'net connection is not absolute. You cannot use it in a way that infringes their rights. You're just avoiding the question. They have the "right" to tell me what to do with my internet connection because... certain things I might do with it would infringe another one of their "rights", you say? Well then, where does that supposed "right" come from? Why should anyone believe they have the "right" to dictate who can or can't have access to a certain number?
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    198. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Why should anyone believe they have the "right" to dictate who can or can't have access to a certain number?

      It's the same way that child porn is just a number. Or a CAD drawing for a nuclear weapon is just a number. Or your SSN is just a number. Or your credit card and other financial information is just a number.

      I'm certainly not allowed to say, order $2000 worth of stuff from Amazon and enter your credit card number am I? Won't you sue me if I did that? Or will you uphold my rights to use any 'number' any way that I see fit on my net connection?

    199. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      What I'm paying them for is the electrical power, not the right to use a particular shape. And what you're paying for, is an application that does something, or a game or song or movie that has entertainment value, not a particular shape. You are conveniently seeing the big picture in one, but refusing to see it in the other.

      The book is property, and they can charge whatever they want for it: it's a physical object, and I can't take it without depriving them of it.

      But they can print a new one for 1 cent. Just like the software/game/music/movie people can print infinite copies at negligible cost. Why can't you just pay 1 cent and walk out?

      And along the same vein -- is power a physical product? For every electron the power company pushed down the line, they took one back. They do this 60 times a second. You still have nothing in your hand that you can hold, that you bought from them. Why do you pay them?

      I suppose you think Newton's heirs should have an exclusive right to profit from anything that was developed using calculus too, then. What a dismal world that would be. The copyright on his work would have long expired by now. He could have chosen to profit from it if he wanted to, and he did not -- as is often (but not always) the case in the field of math, science.

      Of course, copyright isn't limited to profit anyway. Noncommercial sharing is also illegal, but I'm sure you knew that.

      Wrong! Non-commercial sharing is illegal *without the permission of the copyright holder*. Even commercial, but free sharing is possible with the permission of the copyright holder. For examples, refer to the BSD license, Apache Creative Commons license, GPL, etc.

      But I'm sure you already knew that.

    200. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      And what you're paying for, is an application that does something, or a game or song or movie that has entertainment value, not a particular shape. They're one and the same. The shape, the pattern of bits, is the application.

      But they can print a new one for 1 cent. Just like the software/game/music/movie people can print infinite copies at negligible cost. Why can't you just pay 1 cent and walk out? Because, as I said, the book is a physical product. If I take it, they don't have it anymore; that's why books have owners, because someone has to decide where the book is going to be at any given time. Therefore, I need their permission to take it, and they can ask whatever price they want for it.

      Similarly, a game publisher can ask whatever price they want for a CD, because to take it is to deprive them of it, and they can ask for whatever compensation they want in exchange for giving up ownership of that CD.

      And along the same vein -- is power a physical product? For every electron the power company pushed down the line, they took one back. They do this 60 times a second. You still have nothing in your hand that you can hold, that you bought from them. Why do you pay them? For providing the service of pushing those electrons around. The same reason I might pay a landscaper for, essentially, pushing grass and dirt around on my lawn.

      The copyright on [Newton's] work would have long expired by now. But surely that implementation detail of a particular copyright law has no impact on the underlying right to exclusive profit that you claim a person has. The fact that copyright terms expire just means this supposed fundamental right can be freely infringed after a certain time, right?

      Wrong! Non-commercial sharing is illegal *without the permission of the copyright holder*. Even commercial, but free sharing is possible with the permission of the copyright holder. For examples, refer to the BSD license, Apache Creative Commons license, GPL, etc.

      But I'm sure you already knew that. Sharing-with-permission isn't what I was talking about, but I'm sure you already knew that.
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    201. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by rtechie · · Score: 1

      They should not, by law be allowed to do that. Now do you understand the sort of laws I'm talking about? Ones that mandate interoperability guidelines, for example? But the current law does not work that way. Why should people follow the current law if it is anti-competitive, screws retailers, screws customers, etc.? Your arguing in favor of hypothetical laws, not reality.

      I suggest that you have a misplaced sense of entitlement. You feel the whole business world should bend over backwards to provide everything to you for free, The business world needs to come up with a justification for why people should pay for what they can get for free. I suggest that many of these companies have a misplaced sense of entitlement and are manipulating the legal system at the expense of all Americans. They are no more "right" than companies who dodge taxes by using overseas tax shelters. "Legal" and "morally correct" are completely different concepts and never the twain shall meet. I refuse to do immoral things simply because they're "legal".

      Zero-DRM protects our rights at their cost. There is no evidence that not including DRM on your software increases piracy. There is very strong evidence that piracy increases software sales in general. Not necessarily YOUR software sales, but the grown of the industry in general. What is the most pirated software application in the world, by a very wide margin? Microsoft Windows. This doesn't seem to have hurt MS' bottom line much. I could easily argue that without piracy of Windows 95 MS would be VASTLY less successful than they are today. The same holds true for lots of other popular software, notably AutoCAD and 3D Studio Max.

      But let's narrow the discussion to game piracy. Most games (In the United States. The situation is completely different in, say, China. But we're talking about US laws here.) are pirated by 13-20 year old boys/men. All of these guys have something in common: they have a lot more free time than cash money because all of their cash money is eaten up with school expenses. These people are simply not capable of spending the money on the games because they don't have it. The need their money for beer and weed. So they're going to pirate much of the media they use. This has been true for at least the past 40 years.

      Let's talk about these boys a bit more. 13-20 year old boys tend to be anti-authoritarian, so to some extent cracking DRM is seen as "going against The Man". Trying to defeat pointless teenage anti-authoritarianism is a fool's errand. These same kids try to hack into the Pentagon for fun, do you really think that DRM or the vague legal threats of the SPA's goons are going to deter them? As someone else pointed out, for some of these kids beating the DRM is the REAL game.

      Fast forward a bit: These 13-20 year old are now 21-35 year olds with jobs (probably well-paying jobs given their technical skills). They now have a lot more money than time. Do you think they are going to:

      A) Stop playing videogames.

      or

      B) Start paying for videogames.

      DRM allowed to roam free, protects their rights at the cost of ours. The purpose of DRM is not to "protect publisher's rights". It is explicitly to "fuck consumers, and fuck them hard". I've heard this straight from the horse's mouth. The goal is to eventually get everything to a "pay per use" model which is perceived as generating maximum revenue. Every time you play a song, you're billed. Watch a movie, billed. They actually want to charge gamers by hours of gameplay, if you can believe it. Feel like spending $500 on your next RPG? THAT is the goal of game publishers. They've been drooling over the revenue WoW is raking in with their "pay per use" model.

      DRM, with proper legislative oversight/guidelines can protect the rights of both parties. No it doesn't. DRM does not allow for software entering the public domain, which is massive attack on the rights of all Americans.

      And again, you're talking about magical hypothetical DRM. Not reality. I am talking about the reality of DRM, which is viciously anti-consumer.

    202. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      It's the same way that child porn is just a number. Or a CAD drawing for a nuclear weapon is just a number. Or your SSN is just a number. Or your credit card and other financial information is just a number. Yes, copying those numbers doesn't harm anyone either. It's the creation (in the case of child porn) or application (in the others) that cause harm.

      I do think it could make some sense to distinguish between "private" information that only a small, chosen set of people are granted access to (e.g. medical and financial records), the kind of stuff you want as few people to have as possible, and "public" information which is made available to an anonymous mass audience (e.g. music and movies), the kind of stuff you don't mind everyone having as long as they're paying you for it... and then grant special protections to private information, based on the idea that disclosing private information is inherently harmful (which is still arguable). But I don't think it's strictly necessary to make that distinction.

      I'm certainly not allowed to say, order $2000 worth of stuff from Amazon and enter your credit card number am I? Won't you sue me if I did that? Or will you uphold my rights to use any 'number' any way that I see fit on my net connection? The objectionable thing there isn't that you have access to a certain 16-digit number, but that you're racking up fraudulent charges which I'll have to pay for (or at least spend my time getting them removed). In fact, plenty of companies know my social security number and credit card numbers already, and I don't mind because they don't do anything fraudulent with them.

      Downloading a game or movie, on the other hand, doesn't create any charges or obligations for anyone else.
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    203. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Yes, copying those numbers doesn't harm anyone either. It's the creation (in the case of child porn) or application (in the others) that cause harm. But it's my property, my computer, and these are just numbers. How can anyone tell me what numbers I can and cannot use? That child porn has already been created. I can't go back into the past and harm that child any further. My use of that number doesn't cause anyone any harm. See how your logic fails?

      I do think it could make some sense to distinguish between "private" information that only a small, chosen set of people are granted access Why? They are just numbers. According to you, my right to use any number I choose on my own property is absolute.

      "public" information which is made available to an anonymous mass audience (e.g. music and movies) They are not public information. They are copyrighted content. See how you need to start adding clauses and qualifications now that I am using your 'just a number' stance? Again, your logic has failed.

      The objectionable thing there isn't that you have access to a certain 16-digit number, but that you're racking up fraudulent charges which I'll have to pay for (or at least spend my time getting them removed). In fact, plenty of companies know my social security number and credit card numbers already, and I don't mind because they don't do anything fraudulent with them. But your bank balance is just a number. Why don't you just edit it and put a different (higher) number in it's place? After all, who does that hurt?
    204. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "What investment? If they got paid for developing it, there is no investment. The money has changed hands and the job is done."

      Investment of developing a product to sell. The initial investment may include development, marketing and any other costs related to creating the piece of software.

      "Yes, that's true, they face the unnecessary risk of losing their investment. That risk would go away if they'd charge for production, of course."

      I see, so 1 single person would be wiling to pay 10 million dollars for adobe photoshop? The only reason software is "subsidized" is to get it out to the masses. Otherwise, it would only be in the hands of businesses and people that could afford the large amount of money required for development.

      and let's not forget support. Commercial software vendors have to spend time and hire people to support the software that they sold you (which costs money).

      "If it were only that company's fortunes at stake, then I'd have no objection. But the problem is, they're not the only ones who lose. Everyone is forced to play along, facing restrictions on their speech and actions just so this company with the broken business model can roll the dice and pray to strike it rich. Even if the company wins, everyone else still loses: we don't get our freedoms back when the company recoups their investment. They're gone forever (well, for life + 70 years, as long as the copyright terms aren't retroactively extended before then)."

      You never had any rights to the software to begin with. You are granted rights when a company sells you a license to use their software for $retail cost when they paid millions to develop it.

    205. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by rtechie · · Score: 1

      # They might price themselves out of the market that way -- but it's their own fault.
      # They might alienate customers that way -- but it's their own fault.

      Since we're talking about music: You do understand that the big labels actively conspire to block any significant grown in indie music, right? This goes down to the level of bribing local police to shut down nightclubs that are playing independent music. They constantly sue indie labels for trivial nonsense, to drive them out of business through legal expenses. They engage in massive bribery and other corruption. The labels do not play fair. The do not follow the law. It is in the best interests of consumers if they go completely out of business.

      In fact, I'll go out and say it: If you pay for major label music, YOU are evil. You are harming countless artists by aiding the people that are screwing them over. If you steal major label music, and more importantly you encourage OTHERS to do so, you are helping artists because you are hurting the bottom line of the big labels, which may drive them out of business, which is good for everyone (except major label officers and investors).

    206. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      They're one and the same. The shape, the pattern of bits, is the application. So you admit -- it's not just a number. It's an application that does something. It's a product. I mean, that's why you wanted it in the first place. Even this waveform you buy from the energy company is indistinguishable from the energy they are supplying you. You can't very well get one without the other. Just as you can't get the application/song/movie/game without the number.

      Because, as I said, the book is a physical product. If I take it, they don't have it anymore But you paid them for the price of the physical product -- so they are not at a loss, according to your logic. They have no right to demand anything other than the cost of the physical product according to your logic. Anything else infringes on your rights to access the 'words' that are belong to nobody, according to your logic.

      For providing the service of pushing those electrons around. These same electrons will get pushed around even if you just tap into your neighbor's power supply. Why do you pay your power company for this service? After all, you just took a waveform -- and nobody got deprived of it.

      But surely that implementation detail of a particular copyright law has no impact on the underlying right to exclusive profit that you claim a person has. The fact that copyright terms expire just means this supposed fundamental right can be freely infringed after a certain time, right? What's your point? The right to get credit for your creations (or not get credit, if you wish) is a government granted right and not a fundamental right. It is a right nonetheless. After 'x' years (implementation specific) you no longer have that right, so no - it is not being infringed after it expired.

      Sharing-with-permission isn't what I was talking about, but I'm sure you already knew that. You have no clue what you're talking about, but I'm sure you'll never understand that. You can't pick and chose your cases. There's sharing with/without permission, commercial and non-commercial uses, and many many more cases. Some are legal, some are not. Some are case-specific. Some are fuzzy gray areas. Some are legal in some countries and illegal in others. What's universal, is that all countries (economies) have a concept of copyright in one form or another. If you find one that doesn't, I suggest you go live there, or do your transactions only with businesses from that country.
    207. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      In fact, I'll go out and say it: If you pay for major label music, YOU are evil. You are harming countless artists by aiding the people that are screwing them over. If you steal major label music, and more importantly you encourage OTHERS to do so, you are helping artists because you are hurting the bottom line of the big labels, which may drive them out of business, which is good for everyone (except major label officers and investors). Do. Not. Buy. You hurt them the same amount, and you have not stolen. Do. Not. Fricking. Buy.

      The labels do not play fair. The do not follow the law. It is in the best interests of consumers if they go completely out of business. Do. Not. Buy. For crying out loud -- did you read anything I said about needing laws to protect fair use? At no point have I defended the labels. If you pirate a song, you're ripping off the label to the tune of 90%, and the artist to the tune of 10%. You still have no right to do either. If you do. not. freaking. buy. you are not ripping anybody off. You don't get to enjoy the song, but nobody said the principled approach would be easy.
    208. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I fully agree it doesn't justify copyright violation. I just wanted to clarify that it is a very good reason to refuse to do business with some entity if at all practical. Agreed!
    209. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I see, so 1 single person would be wiling to pay 10 million dollars for adobe photoshop? No. That was the whole point of bringing up political campaigns: thousands of people pay a small amount, and those small payments add up to millions of dollars. (As you pointed out, political campaign contributions are donations, but then we both agreed it's a "payment" instead when you're guaranteed something in return, which in this case would be the service of writing software.)

      Instead of having one person pay $10 million for development, you could have a million people each paying $10, or a hundred thousand each paying $100, or some combination of both: all that matters is that the company eventually collects the $10 million they're looking for.

      You never had any rights to the software to begin with. I have the right to communicate (which may involve sharing numbers that represent software) and to use my own property (which may involve feeding one of those numbers into my computer).
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    210. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      But it's my property, my computer, and these are just numbers. How can anyone tell me what numbers I can and cannot use? That child porn has already been created. I can't go back into the past and harm that child any further. My use of that number doesn't cause anyone any harm. See how your logic fails? Hmm.. no. What I see is you making a strong argument that possession and trading of child porn shouldn't be illegal.

      Why? They are just numbers. According to you, my right to use any number I choose on my own property is absolute. I don't think I've said that right is absolute. You have the right to do it because (as long as) it doesn't harm anyone. It's possible, however, that releasing private information to the public could cause tangible harm in itself. But as I said, I'm not fully convinced of that.

      They are not public information. They are copyrighted content. Ah, but they are public. When you broadcast a song over the radio, or sell copies of it to millions of people you've never met and whose identities you don't care about, you're demonstrating that you don't mind if strangers hear it. That is the difference between public and private. Similarly, if you go on CNN and tell the world what your credit card number is, or offer to tell it to anyone who'll give you a few bucks, you'll have a hard time claiming that you meant to keep it private.

      But your bank balance is just a number. Why don't you just edit it and put a different (higher) number in it's place? After all, who does that hurt? I'm sure you already know the answer, but I'll humor you.

      It harms the bank, in two ways. First, because you'd have to break into their private property in order to make that change. Second, because making that change creates a liability for them: they would be obligated to give me more money than they otherwise would, just like putting a fraudulent charge on my credit card means I'm obligated to pay more than I otherwise would.
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    211. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      So you admit -- it's not just a number. It's an application that does something. It's a product. I mean, that's why you wanted it in the first place. Well, I guess pi and e are "products" too then, in the sense that they're numbers that can be fed into a process to produce a useful result. If I want to know the area of a circle, I need to know the value of pi, which someone else has taken the time to calculate for me. But obviously that doesn't mean I owe anyone for the use of that number.

      But you paid them for the price of the physical product -- so they are not at a loss, according to your logic. They have no right to demand anything other than the cost of the physical product according to your logic. Anything else infringes on your rights to access the 'words' that are belong to nobody, according to your logic. Nope, that's not my logic. You've made up a strawman and falsely attributed it to me.

      The book is an object that they own, and they aren't under any obligation to give it to me at all. They can keep it forever and not sell it for a million dollars, if that's what they choose to do. The only way that book can become mine is if they agree to transfer ownership of it to me, and in exchange for that agreement, they can ask for whatever they want.

      This derives from the fundamental concept of ownership: someone (called the owner) has to decide where the book is going to be and how it'll be used, since it can only be in one place and some uses interfere with others, and choosing whether or not to let me walk out the door with it is part of deciding where the book will be.

      Anything else infringes on your rights to access the 'words' that are belong to nobody, according to your logic. Nope. I can access the words just fine without taking the book home, because I can read it in the store. That is, of course, if they'll let me: they're not under any obligation to let me open their book, just like they're not under any obligation to let me in the front door in the first place.

      These same electrons will get pushed around even if you just tap into your neighbor's power supply. Why do you pay your power company for this service? After all, you just took a waveform -- and nobody got deprived of it. It would create a liability for the neighbor (since he's billed for the usage), and I'd have to break into his property to tap the power lines. Of course, if he agrees to let me mess with his wires and to pay for my electric usage, there's no problem.

      What's your point? The right to get credit for your creations (or not get credit, if you wish) is a government granted right and not a fundamental right. It is a right nonetheless. After 'x' years (implementation specific) you no longer have that right, so no - it is not being infringed after it expired. But we're not talking about credit, we're talking about this "exclusive right to profit" that you claim people somehow get from somewhere.

      Getting credit for your work is just a consequence of the prohibition against fraud, since anyone else who claims to have written it is lying.

      Furthermore, since we're talking about the merits of the law itself, you can hardly expect to use the rights granted by that same law as evidence that the law is necessary. If copyright were abolished, then making unauthorized copies wouldn't infringe copyright. I believe you're claiming it would still infringe some nebulous right, but maybe I've misunderstood you.
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    212. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      But it's my property, my computer, and these are just numbers. How can anyone tell me what numbers I can and cannot use? That child porn has already been created. I can't go back into the past and harm that child any further. My use of that number doesn't cause anyone any harm. See how your logic fails? Hmm.. no. What I see is you making a strong argument that possession and trading of child porn shouldn't be illegal. Nice try -- but that's your argument, not mine. I just applied it in the same blind manner that you did.

      I don't think I've said that right is absolute. You have the right to do it because (as long as) it doesn't harm anyone. It's possible, however, that releasing private information to the public could cause tangible harm in itself. But as I said, I'm not fully convinced of that. I love that sound of an argument beginning to crumble because it's foundation was bad. How do you define tangible harm? Once you come up with a complete definition of this, you'll see how your theft of this 'number' harms the creator, and harms the people who buy the product legally.

      Ah, but they are public. When you broadcast a song over the radio, or sell copies of it to millions of people you've never met and whose identities you don't care about, you're demonstrating that you don't mind if strangers hear it. That is the difference between public and private. Similarly, if you go on CNN and tell the world what your credit card number is, or offer to tell it to anyone who'll give you a few bucks, you'll have a hard time claiming that you meant to keep it private. Ah! now you're going into broadcast licenses. These songs are still copyrighted. You still have rights that need to be protected (specifically time-shifting) -- but again, your rights are not absolute (as you have finally admitted).

      It harms the bank, in two ways. First, because you'd have to break into their private property in order to make that change. Second, because making that change creates a liability for them: they would be obligated to give me more money than they otherwise would, just like putting a fraudulent charge on my credit card means I'm obligated to pay more than I otherwise would. But the bank's own wealth is just a number. They can just edit that number (after all, it's their property). So it doesn't affect them if you edit your number. You don't even have to break in to their system. Just take your latest bank statement and edit your bank balance on it, and take it back to the bank and have them correct their records. It's just a number -- what do they care who's version they accept.
    213. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Nice try -- but that's your argument, not mine. I just applied it in the same blind manner that you did. And you ended up reaching a logical conclusion, just like I have about copyright. Congratulations.

      It's only shocking if you believe axiomatically that possession or transmission of such material must be harmful, regardless of whether or not it actually causes any harm to anyone, just like my conclusion about copyright is only shocking if you believe axiomatically that unauthorized copying must be harmful.

      How do you define tangible harm? Being deprived of property, life, or limb, mainly. This is why I'm not convinced that releasing private information really does cause harm. It seems to me that the "harm" from the release of private information mostly boils down to hurt feelings. A lot of people do think that private information should be treated specially, though, which is why I mentioned it.

      These songs are still copyrighted. But they're not private, which is what we were talking about. If they were private, you'd be horrified at the thought that thousands of strangers are hearing them, not pleased that you're getting airplay.

      But the bank's own wealth is just a number. Money, however, is not, and the importance of that number comes from the fact that it represents an obligation to pay out actual money. If my bank balance is $100, that means the bank is obligated to give me $100 cash if I ask for it. If I break into their computer and change that number to $1000, now they're obligated to give me $1000 cash instead. The change creates a liability for them, just like putting fraudulent charges on my credit card creates one for me.
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    214. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Well, I guess pi and e are "products" too then, in the sense that they're numbers that can be fed into a process to produce a useful result... If you can track down the guy that discovered pi around 1900 b.c. you can let him know that his copyright has expired ;)

      But you paid them for the price of the physical product -- so they are not at a loss, according to your logic. They have no right to demand anything other than the cost of the physical product according to your logic. Anything else infringes on your rights to access the 'words' that are belong to nobody, according to your logic. Nope, that's not my logic. You've made up a strawman and falsely attributed it to me. Nope. It's called a strawman when I claim that some unnamed third party said something, so that I can refute it. You claimed nobody had the right to tell you what number you can copy/download. You claimed nobody had the right to tell you what number you can use on your property. These are your statements, and therefore it is your logic I used.

      The book is an object that they own, and they aren't under any obligation to give it to me at all. But how can they legally stop you? You offered them 1 cent for the physical product, and they have no right to ask anything else of you. How can they discriminate between you and any other paying customer. On what grounds will they refuse your payment?

      It would create a liability for the neighbor (since he's billed for the usage), and I'd have to break into his property to tap the power lines. Of course, if he agrees to let me mess with his wires and to pay for my electric usage, there's no problem. Why does he get charged more? He paid for a pattern and he got a pattern. No more and no less, before and after you tapped into his lines. You could tap in at some public location too instead of specifically from your neighbor -- you're just copying a pattern in the end.

      But we're not talking about credit, we're talking about this "exclusive right to profit" that you claim people somehow get from somewhere. Credit takes many forms. The creator decides the form. It can often be monetary. The "somehow get from somewhere" would be the law, the courts, the government. Heck, even international law recognizes this.

      Getting credit for your work is just a consequence of the prohibition against fraud, since anyone else who claims to have written it is lying. Again, credit takes many forms. For some people, recognition is enough. Other people prefer monetary credit.

      You can hardly expect to use the rights granted by that same law as evidence that the law is necessary. I believe that by some miracle, we are actually in absolute and complete agreement over something. Yes, copyright law cannot be cited as the reason for it's own existence. The intent of copyright is to promote the creation of new works by giving authors control of and profit from them. This is a huge topic in and of itself. There is room for disagreement there -- as evidenced by the fact that copyright laws are not consistent across countries, and can by changed by acts of congress, and the courts. But the need for their existence is universally recognized. (perhaps not yet by you of course, but I'm assuming at this point that you are the citizen of some country so you don't really get a choice in the matter). If you're stuck in some country who's copyright laws you find to be absolutely unbearable, I hope you're at least in a democratic country so that you are able to change it if you can convince enough of your fellow citizens to think, and vote, along your lines.

      I believe you're claiming it would still infringe some nebulous right, but maybe I've misunderstood you. No, I'm not claiming that -- I hope the above paragraph cleared that up.
    215. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Nope. It's called a strawman when I claim that some unnamed third party said something, so that I can refute it. Doesn't have to be an unnamed third party. It can be a party to the argument, like when you said "They have no right to demand anything other than the cost of the physical product according to your logic", attributing a claim to me ("your logic") which I never actually made.

      But how can they legally stop you? You offered them 1 cent for the physical product, and they have no right to ask anything else of you. How can they discriminate between you and any other paying customer. On what grounds will they refuse your payment? As I wrote before: "The only way that book can become mine is if they agree to transfer ownership of it to me, and in exchange for that agreement, they can ask for whatever they want."

      If I offer one cent, they'll refuse it on the grounds that it isn't what they asked for. They're not obligated to give up ownership of the book at all, so if I want them to do it, I have to convince them by meeting their asking price. (Similarly, if I want someone to mow my lawn, I have to pay him the price he asks in exchange for his time, and if I won't do it, he isn't obligated to do any work for me. I can't come up with my own valuation of his time, pay him that, and then force him to mow the lawn against his will.)

      I don't know where you're getting the idea "they have no right to ask anything else of you" in exchange for transferring ownership of their property. I certainly never said it -- in fact, I've said exactly the opposite, multiple times. And somehow I don't think you believe it. So that means it's just a strawman you made up in order to argue against, right?

      Why does he get charged more? He paid for a pattern and he got a pattern. No more and no less, before and after you tapped into his lines. As I've repeatedly pointed out, he's paying for the service of pushing electrons through a wire, not the pattern. I can give him the pattern on a piece of graph paper for free. I could give him a battery-operated device that produces that pattern too, or a mathematical description of the wave, or a bit of code that'll draw it on his monitor.

      But that's no substitute, because the pattern isn't what he's looking for. He wants someone to push electrons through his wires, which involves an ongoing effort. You can't just tell someone how the electrons are going to move, or do it once so he can see it for himself. You have to keep pushing, 60 times a second. And if he puts more load on the lines, you have to push harder.

      Contrast that to writing a book, where the author does a fixed amount of work to produce a sequence of words, regardless of how many people end up reading it. If someone wants to read the story, telling him that sequence of words is sufficient, because the sequence is what he's looking for; the author doesn't have to lift a finger to keep providing that story to everyone who reads it.

      You could tap in at some public location too instead of specifically from your neighbor I don't think there's any "public location" where I could mess around with the power lines without violating anyone's private property -- someone owns those wires, and I'm pretty sure it's not me -- but for the sake of argument, let's suppose there is.

      Now the problem is that by placing more load on the electric system, I cause extra work for the power company. They have to push harder to move those electrons around, which means they have to either burn more fuel or provide less service to other people. It deprives them and/or their other customers of something.

      Contrast that to recording a song off the radio, which doesn't place any extra load on anything or cause any extra work for anyone. That song is going through the air whether I record it or not, and the costs of transmitting it are the same no matter how many people are listening or recording.

      No, I'm not claiming that -- I hope the above paragraph cleared that up. Thanks for the clarification.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    216. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      And you ended up reaching a logical conclusion, just like I have about copyright. Congratulations.

      Are you really saying you believe downloading, possession and viewing of child porn should not be illegal?

      just like my conclusion about copyright is only shocking if you believe axiomatically that unauthorized copying must be harmful.

      I don't need belief for this. Logic does all the work, and harm can indeed be established. I'll explain after the next quote.

      How do you define tangible harm?

      Being deprived of property, life, or limb, mainly.

      So let's consider a couple of cases (obviously hypothetical, but quite logical). Let's start by agreeing that money is not just a number -- it represents property, or the potential to acquire it, and therefore the loss of money constitutes tangible harm. Now:

      • An artist 'A' releases an album. It is purchased for a price of $15 by just one person (in the whole world). This person makes the album available on limewire. About 10 million people download it. Result: tangible harm to the artist.
      • Now let's consider a less extreme case. The situation is the same, but the numbers are more real. Like the artist sold 100,000 copies of the album, but it was still downloaded 10 million times. We don't feel so bad for the artist any more because this time she made 1.5 million dollars. But now that opens up a whole different can of worms:
        • Maybe the artist is indeed unhappy. She feels she should have made 150 million dollars, because she brought enjoyment to 10 million people. That's an astounding claim for anyone to be able to make
        • Or, maybe she would have preferred to have priced the album at 15 cents, and get the exact same total amount of money, but just be fair to everyone and distribute the cost evenly. Worse -- because she feels this way, it means that the people who downloaded the album without paying actually caused the paying customers to spend $14.85 more than they should have. So harm was done to 100,000 people instead of just one. Less harm, distributed across more people. The harm caused by the free downloaders in this case was 15 cents each of course. It's important to note that each free downloader is thinking of themselves as a drop in the ocean (which they literally are), who is not making a big difference in the big scheme of things, but the net effect they have is tangible indeed.

      And now that opens up still more questions:

      • What if the artist is just greedy and wants to leave the price at $15 no matter how popular the album is?
      • Who is going to decide how much money is fair, for 10,000 sales, 10 million sales, 10 billion sales, etc.
      • How would the artist know what price to set? After all, the sales come after the price has been set, and not before.

      And the answer to all of that is actually surprisingly easy. The market will decide. The artists take on the risk of whatever price strategy they chose. If they overprice, they lose sales (and hence revenue). If they under-price, they lose revenue. If they price it optimally (or thereabouts) -- they make about as much money as they possibly could, or gobs of money in any case. If they never wanted to make money in the first place, they can choose to just not charge. If they want money but it's not their prime motive, they can choose to just accept whatever people will pay (like radiohead recently did). Ultimately it's their creation, so they take the risk of the pricing strategy and business model, and they reap the rewards of their decision, and their creation. And (1) free downloaders cause tangible harm to actual customers and/or the artist and (2) pirates (such as AllOfMp3) get rewards without taking on risk, and without creating anything, and while causing the artists and the actual customers tangible harm. Copyright law exists to prevent that.

      phew.. ;)

      But

    217. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Now the problem is that by placing more load on the electric system, I cause extra work for the power company. Right. So cutting through all the BS about mowing lawns, patterns on graph papers, physical product etc., we're down to simple cause and effect.

      The energy you draw, comes from somewhere, and the people that produced it need compensation. You might call it a service or anything, but ultimately you are paying for something without any physical manifestation. (unless you want to go into mass-energy conversion, but I'll assume you don't do that on a regular basis :D). You merely recognize that some party had to create it, and deserves to be compensated.

      Contrast that to recording a song off the radio, which doesn't place any extra load on anything or cause any extra work for anyone. Now for the song off the radio, you were supposed to listen to it live, or time-shift it. Not record it and play it back infinitely. By doing so, you are denying compensation to the party that created it. It doesn't matter that they're not doing extra work. You are not paying them, the compensation you owe them, for work they have already done. Cause and effect. The song you recorded off the air was created by somebody, and they want compensation. If everybody in the world were to follow your logic, at no point would anybody be obligated to make payments for the songs we own (we can just get them off the radio, or download for free), and the artists will never get paid for their work. Same case for free downloads of apps, games, movies.

      Thanks for the clarification. You're most welcome. Do you get it now?
    218. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Are you really saying you believe downloading, possession and viewing of child porn should not be illegal?

      Downloading, possession, and viewing don't harm anyone, so yes, that is what I'm saying. It should be treated the same as downloading, possessing, or viewing evidence of a street fight, a robbery, a murder, or any other harmful act -- the act itself is harmful, and should certainly be illegal, but the recorded evidence isn't.

      Now, back on topic...

      Let's start by agreeing that money is not just a number -- it represents property, or the potential to acquire it, and therefore the loss of money constitutes tangible harm.

      Agreed. But in order to lose money, you have to have the money first; you can't lose money that belongs to someone else.

      An artist 'A' releases an album. It is purchased for a price of $15 by just one person (in the whole world). This person makes the album available on limewire. About 10 million people download it. Result: tangible harm to the artist.

      Where? He didn't lose any money; he gained $15.

      It's true that the artist didn't gain the $150 million that those ten million people could, theoretically, have given him. But that money was never his, so he didn't lose it, and he isn't tangibly harmed by not gaining it.

      If you're going to consider the loss of potential-money-that-you-might-possibly-have-gotten a type of harm, then you're going to have to prosecute everyone who declines to buy any particular album, whether or not they download it, as well as every critic who publishes a negative review of any album and thus discourages other people from buying it.

      Maybe the artist is indeed unhappy.

      If you're going to worry about that, then shouldn't you also worry about the people who want to get the album for free but are unhappy because they can't? There are a lot more of them, so even if they're only a little unhappy, surely that adds up to even more unhappiness. I think it's better to just say hurt feelings aren't a tangible harm.

      Or, maybe she would have preferred to have priced the album at 15 cents, and get the exact same total amount of money, but just be fair to everyone and distribute the cost evenly. Worse -- because she feels this way, it means that the people who downloaded the album without paying actually caused the paying customers to spend $14.85 more than they should have.

      The pricing of her album is her choice, not the downloaders'. No one forced her to set her goal at $1.5 million. She could have priced the album at 15 cents and settled for a measly $15,000 (well, presumably more, since she'd sell more copies at that price).

      But it's hard to call that "harm" anyway, because everyone still willingly chose to spend $15 for the album. If they thought it was only worth 15 cents, they shouldn't have bought it.

      I'll skip your next couple paragraphs since they seem to be predicated on the ideas that (1) someone needs to dictate how much is "fair" for the artist to receive, or (2) "losing" money that belongs to someone else counts as tangible harm.

      And the importance of the 'number' that represents a game, a song, a movie, or an application, comes from the fact that it represents an actual product that entertains, or performs some function. You just can't pick and choose when to see the big-picture behind this number and when to ignore it.

      I'm not ignoring it. I agree that the importance of the number representing a program is that you can feed the number into a computer to make it do something.

      But the difference is, that doesn't create an obligation for anyone (except my computer, which seems happy to do whatever I ask of it anyway). No one loses anything when I feed that number into my computer. The bank, however, does lose something when I close my account and they end up having to give me the $1000 I hacked in instead of the $100 I actually depo

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    219. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      But the current law does not work that way. Why should people follow the current law if it is anti-competitive, screws retailers, screws customers, etc.? Your arguing in favor of hypothetical laws, not reality. What do you want me to do? I'm on the same side as you. I agree that we're getting screwed, and it's because the law doesn't protect our rights. I'm criticizing the current absence of such laws, and proposing they be created.

      I refuse to do immoral things simply because they're "legal". And I never advocated that. I'm proposing not doing and illegal thing (downloading non-free games/movies/music/apps for free) because it is immoral in addition to being illegal.

      "Legal" and "morally correct" are completely different concepts and never the twain shall meet. The problem with absolute statements. Kiddie porn is illegal and immoral. The twain have indeed met. The difference between the two is that morality is a moving target, so legislation on moral issues is difficult. In a democracy you usually end up in a majority-wins sort of situation when passing laws on issues of morality.

      There is very strong evidence that piracy increases software sales in general. Not necessarily YOUR software sales, but the grown of the industry in general. What is the most pirated software application in the world, by a very wide margin? Microsoft Windows. There's simply no data to support this. You can just as easily argue that Windows is the most pirated software application in the world because it is so popular.

      I could easily argue that without piracy of Windows 95 MS would be VASTLY less successful than they are today. And I could easily argue that without piracy, windows would cost less than it did today, and there would be no need for WGA stupidness. Both our arguments lack data and should not be taken seriously.

      Your entire paragraph about kids playing games, growing up, etc. You have a point -- but it doesn't negate my point at all. i.e. if this effect you described does indeed exist (and I'm sure it does), it forms a business model for publishers to consider (like giving their games away for free if you can produce a valid, current, student ID or you can prove you are under 18 or something like that). It still does not mean that publishers don't have rights. And it still doesn't justify piracy. It's still up to the publisher to decide if they are cool with giving the game to someone for free, rather than being up to that person to just 'take' the game for whatever price (free) that they deem fit.

      The purpose of DRM is not to "protect publisher's rights". It is explicitly to "fuck consumers, and fuck them hard" And that's why we need protection.

      DRM, with proper legislative oversight/guidelines can protect the rights of both parties. No it doesn't. DRM does not allow for software entering the public domain, which is massive attack on the rights of all Americans. The laws I'm talking about don't exist (yet), so "no it can't" is a valid response, but "no it doesn't" doesn't make sense. DRM has nothing to do with software entering the public domain. Unless I misunderstood your point. Could you please elaborate?

      And again, you're talking about magical hypothetical DRM. Not reality. I am talking about the reality of DRM, which is viciously anti-consumer. Dude -- it's my thread -- I decide what we talk about here ;) But seriously, I hear you, and I agree with you. I hate FairPlay, and I hate PlaysForSure. I tell all my friends, ad-infinitum to never, never, ever purchase a DRM-d song. At the same time, I have advocated piracy, and I will never come out with circuitous arguments trying to show that by pirating music/movies/games/software I am doing the public at large a favor. I know my options (buy, or do not buy) and they have served me well so far.
    220. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      At the same time, I have advocated piracy GAAH.. that was supposed to be "At the same time, I have never advocated piracy".
      Need to start hitting that preview button from time to time.
    221. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      You might call it a service or anything, but ultimately you are paying for something without any physical manifestation. [...] You merely recognize that some party had to create it, and deserves to be compensated. Well, you're leaving out an important part: that party has to continually keep creating it and deserves to be compensated for their ongoing work.

      If I use 100 kWh, they have to generate 100 kWh. They can't just generate 1 kWh and sell it to me 100 times (or to 100 different customers), and I can't take the electricity I bought last month and reuse it this month. I want them to keep pushing those electrons, and if paying X cents per kWh is what it takes to convince them to keep doing it, then that's that.

      By [taping a song off the radio], you are denying compensation to the party that created it. It doesn't matter that they're not doing extra work. You are not paying them, the compensation you owe them, for work they have already done. Er, yes, I'd say it does matter that they're not doing extra work. Doing work on my behalf is the only reason I'd owe them any sort of compensation, so if they aren't doing that, there's nothing to compensate them for. I don't owe them anything for work they freely chose to do in the past, months or years ago, which I never asked them to do and never agreed to pay for.

      If everybody in the world were to follow your logic, at no point would anybody be obligated to make payments for the songs we own (we can just get them off the radio, or download for free), and the artists will never get paid for their work. Now we're back to where this all started, I think.

      The only way the artists would "never get paid for their work" is if they did that work in the first place even though no one was paying them for it. But why would they do that? Why would someone do a bunch of work for free, without anyone else asking them to do it or agreeing to pay them for it, and then complain that they aren't getting paid? They chose that fate for themselves.

      If everyone in the world were to follow my logic, then artists who wanted to get paid for their work would find a paying audience before they did the work. That's what everyone else already does.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    222. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Are you really saying you believe downloading, possession and viewing of child porn should not be illegal? Downloading, possession, and viewing don't harm anyone, so yes, that is what I'm saying. It should be treated the same as downloading, possessing, or viewing evidence of a street fight, a robbery, a murder, or any other harmful act -- the act itself is harmful, and should certainly be illegal, but the recorded evidence isn't.

      But the act was done with the express intent of people downloading and viewing it. What other reason is there for creating kiddie porn.

      Now, back on topic...

      Sure, why not.. :)

      Agreed. But in order to lose money, you have to have the money first; you can't lose money that belongs to someone else.

      Dude, you are so clutching at straws now. Guy agrees to mow your lawn for 50 bucks. Guy mows lawn. You stiff guy. Guy never had the 50 bucks to begin with. Are you saying he didn't lose 50 bucks in this transaction?

      It's true that the artist didn't gain the $150 million that those ten million people could, theoretically, have given him. But that money was never his, so he didn't lose it, and he isn't tangibly harmed by not gaining it.

      The tangible harm is the amount these 10 million downloaders didn't pay her. Look up the definition of tangible. Regarding the money never being hers, see the previous debunking of guy mowing lawn, and remember that the kind lady set terms that we pay $15 for her album.

      you're going to have to prosecute everyone who declines to buy any particular album

      You're a funny guy. I mean that seriously. How many times have I repeated now, that the seller has terms, and your options are to buy, or to not buy. You cannot just take for free. You can, however, not buy. Taking for free means, you now have her product, and she has lost income. Not buying means you do not have her product, and she has not lost any income (just that she didn't receive any from you either).

      I think it's better to just say hurt feelings aren't a tangible harm.

      I think it's safe to say you have a sense of humor, even if you're lacking a sense of fair-play. I agree hurt feelings are not tangible harm, and that was not even remotely my point.

      The pricing of her album is her choice, not the downloaders'. No one forced her to set her goal at $1.5 million.
      I'll skip your next couple paragraphs since they seem to be predicated on the ideas that (1) someone needs to dictate how much is "fair" for the artist to receive

      Oh, but that's so very wrong. In those very paragraphs I expressly stated that she is not forced to set her album at any particular price (anywhere from free, to any negative number, or any positive number is fair game). I also expressly did not state that anybody can dictate what is fair -- nobody can answer that question. Not the artist, not the customers, not the government. There is only underpriced, overpriced, and optimal price. Everyone will have a different idea of fair. That's the whole point. The artist makes the best decision they can, and the market reaction tells her whether her guess was too high or too low. She can adjust, or she can not adjust the price based on this feedback from the market.

      I'm not ignoring it. I agree that the importance of the number representing a program is that you can feed the number into a computer to make it do something.
      But the difference is, that doesn't create an obligation for anyone (except my computer, which seems happy to do whatever I ask of it anyway). No one loses anything when I feed that number into my computer. The bank, however, does lose something when I close my account and they end up having to give me the $1000 I hacked in instead of the $100 I actually deposited.
      If the bank weren't obligated to give me an amount of cash determined by my account bala

    223. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Well, you're leaving out an important part: that party has to continually keep creating it and deserves to be compensated for their ongoing work.

      If I use 100 kWh, they have to generate 100 kWh. They can't just generate 1 kWh and sell it to me 100 times (or to 100 different customers), and I can't take the electricity I bought last month and reuse it this month. So you're only ok, with a business model where continuous/ongoing work needs to be done? A writer can only be paid for writing books, not for the books that actually sold? An artist has virtually no right to get paid, but people have the rights to access his art by any means? A company making a game has no right to demand payment, but people have the right to download those games for free (against the company's wishes) and play them?

      I want them to keep pushing those electrons, and if paying X cents per kWh is what it takes to convince them to keep doing it, then that's that. And if everybody were download artists and publishers creations for free, what is the incentive for them to keep creating?

      Er, yes, I'd say it does matter that they're not doing extra work. Doing work on my behalf is the only reason I'd owe them any sort of compensation, so if they aren't doing that, there's nothing to compensate them for. I don't owe them anything for work they freely chose to do in the past, months or years ago, which I never asked them to do and never agreed to pay for. Studio created game thinking "gee, lots of people will like this game, so we can sell it to them for $50 a pop". Studio made game. People are unnamed. Studio did not deem it necessary to name them. Studio simply thought, those who want it will buy it (how naive of them). You wanted game. You downloaded game from bittorrent for free, burned the ISO, and played it to your hearts content. Did you rip the studio off, to the tune of $50 or not? They did the work for you (of creating the game). You did not agree to pay them, but they never agreed to work for free. The only terms under which you had access to this work of theirs was if you paid for it. Your arguments are getting more and more absurd.

      Why would someone do a bunch of work for free, without anyone else asking them to do it or agreeing to pay them for it, and then complain that they aren't getting paid? They chose that fate for themselves. Oh, please do forgive them for thinking that they could create something and then sell it. They didn't chose any fate. They created, and you acted like a parasite.

      If everyone in the world were to follow my logic, then artists who wanted to get paid for their work would find a paying audience before they did the work. That's what everyone else already does. Really? That's what everybody else already does?? REALLY???
      Did anybody ask you to pay them for their work, before manufacturing the car you bought?
      Did anybody ask you to pay them for their effort before manufacturing the computer you used?
      Did you pay anybody to create the clothes you are wearing, before they were already manufactured?

      Buy, or do not buy. Stop stealing dude.

    224. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by bit01 · · Score: 1

      You register your game using your CD key and that way if you ever lose it, you can just log on and get it back.

      "Just log on"? Not an option; software often lasts a lot longer than companies do.

      Not to mention being perpetually beholden to a company's need to maximize their revenue stream at your expense. You seriously underestimate just how many options a company has for messing with you, and the financial incentive to do so, when they have a hold on you like that.

      ---

      DRM - Have you got big-corp-of-your-choice's permission to go to the toilet today?

    225. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Problem solved.

      Problem not solved. Ever tried to buy software second hand? It almost never comes with the keys needed. Plus DRM software is usually the first thing to fail when the software is moved to a new platform. DRM deliberately makes software fragile, a seriously stupid thing to do.

      ---

      DRM - Have you got big-corp-of-your-choice's permission to go to the toilet today?

    226. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      So you're only ok, with a business model where continuous/ongoing work needs to be done? A writer can only be paid for writing books, not for the books that actually sold? [etc.] He can sell books, in the same way that anyone can be paid for selling any physical object. What he can't do is stop other people from selling books containing the same sequence of words. And if that means he can't make money by selling books, because he can't sell them at a competitive price, then he should stick to getting paid for writing books instead.

      And if everybody were download artists and publishers creations for free, what is the incentive for them to keep creating? Getting paid for the original act of creating. The same incentive everyone has to keep doing their job. If you pay me to write some code, I don't care if you sell it or give it away later - getting paid for writing it was all the incentive I needed.

      You downloaded game from bittorrent for free, burned the ISO, and played it to your hearts content. Did you rip the studio off, to the tune of $50 or not? Not. They have as much money as they did before I downloaded it, so they didn't lose money. I didn't break any promise to them, since I never agreed to pay for anything, so there's no fraud either. And I never asked them to create that game in the first place, so I haven't robbed them of any time.

      They did the work for you (of creating the game). You did not agree to pay them, but they never agreed to work for free. No, they didn't do that work for me. They've never even met me! They chose to do it on their own. They did it wishing that people would pay them for copies of the completed game, but that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to make that wish come true.

      The only terms under which you had access to this work of theirs was if you paid for it. But you just said I downloaded a torrent, so that means someone (or a few dozen people) was willing to give me access under a different set of terms.

      The folks who wrote the game can set any terms they want, but those terms can only apply to a transaction which they're a part of. They have no right to dictate the terms of a transaction between two other parties.

      Oh, please do forgive them for thinking that they could create something and then sell it. I don't know if I can forgive them that easily. It's a pretty foolish thing for them to do, considering the nature of their "product".

      Really? That's what everybody else already does?? REALLY???
      Did anybody ask you to pay them for their work, before manufacturing the car you bought? [etc.] Oh, please. You know what I meant: the people who perform a service.

      The people who manufacture cars work for a company, and that company agrees to pay them for their work. They don't just come in and sit down at the assembly line, uninvited, and then demand a paycheck at the end of the week for the work they've already done.

      Once the car is manufactured, it's then sold like any other physical product, by transferring ownership in exchange for money. But again, ownership isn't transferred until someone has agreed to pay for the car. The dealer doesn't just deliver a car to your doorstep, unsolicited, and then bill you for it.

      Nor does he tell you what you can or can't do with the car once you've bought it. He doesn't try to limit you like copyright holders do, for example by saying you can only park it someplace where it can be seen by fewer than 10 people at a time.
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      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    227. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Dude, you are so clutching at straws now. Guy agrees to mow your lawn for 50 bucks. Guy mows lawn. You stiff guy. Guy never had the 50 bucks to begin with. Are you saying he didn't lose 50 bucks in this transaction? He didn't lose any money. He did lose time, though, and the value of that time might very well be $50. I'm not going to split hairs there.

      But the only reason he can consider that time "lost" is that he gave it to me predicated on a promise I didn't keep. This is why I keep saying "pay (or agree to pay)". If I promise to give you $50 for mowing my lawn, and then I don't pay, I've defrauded you and robbed you of the time you spent working.

      On the other hand, if you show up uninvited and mow the lawn without talking to me first, you're giving that time away of your own free will, and I don't owe you anything for it.

      Regarding the money never being hers, see the previous debunking of guy mowing lawn And see my re-debunking above. She hasn't lost any money. She spent time recording the album and never got compensated for it, but she gave that time away of her own free will, just like the guy who showed up and mowed the lawn without asking for any money. If she did it because she thought people were going to buy copies, that's a shame, but she can blame it on her own expectations, since no one else made any promises.

      How many times have I repeated now, that the seller has terms, and your options are to buy, or to not buy. You cannot just take for free. The seller can't apply his own terms to someone else's transaction. He can ask any price he wants for the things he himself sells, but he can't walk into someone else's business and tell them what to charge or demand a cut of their profits. You only get to do that if you're in the Mafia.

      Taking for free means, you now have her product, and she has lost income. Not buying means you do not have her product, and she has not lost any income (just that she didn't receive any from you either). So sometimes it's a loss when you don't give someone money, even though you didn't agree to give them anything, and sometimes it isn't?

      And the difference between them losing money or not losing money has nothing to do with what they have, only with what you have?

      I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. They're in the same situation either way; either they've "lost" money in both cases or they haven't. Their loss is measured by their situation, not anyone else's.

      So you can understand this obligation the bank has to give you cash. Is that a fundamental right, or something etched into law? It's part of the agreement I had with the bank when I opened the account: I wouldn't have deposited any money unless I knew I'd be able to get it back. I suppose it's probably written into some law too, but that's beside the point.
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    228. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if you show up uninvited and mow the lawn without talking to me first, you're giving that time away of your own free will, and I don't owe you anything for it. So every artist must ask if you want to pay for their effort to create their song before they create it, otherwise they have no right to ask for compensation? In fact, they have no right to set any terms at all, with any potential customer (the whole planet) after the fact -- this must all be done before they create the song? In your world, nobody gets to create music commercially until they get all their potential customers to sign an agreement first. You'd be stupid not to, because if you think you have a serious hit on your hands, you certainly don't want to create it, until you got as many people signed up as possible. But these people have absolutely no clue what they're signing up for. Maybe you can describe your song to them without actually creating it. Maybe you can hope they understand what you're proposing. Maybe you can hope that nobody else understands your description well enough to create the song before you. Your argument makes no sense.

      And see my re-debunking above. She hasn't lost any money. She spent time recording the album and never got compensated for it, but she gave that time away of her own free will, just like the guy who showed up and mowed the lawn without asking for any money. If she did it because she thought people were going to buy copies, that's a shame, but she can blame it on her own expectations, since no one else made any promises. Your debunking doesn't work based on my re-debunking ;)

      The seller can't apply his own terms to someone else's transaction. This is the seller's transaction -- you're attempting to acquire the seller's property. Just a number, or otherwise. You don't get to define this as someone else's transaction just because you're doing it behind the seller's back.

      He can ask any price he wants for the things he himself sells, but he can't walk into someone else's business and tell them what to charge or demand a cut of their profits. You only get to do that if you're in the Mafia. And you can't dress piracy up as "someone else's business" and absolve yourself of your obligation to pay the seller. And the Mafia wouldn't claim that they are not in the crime business -- at least they know what they are.

      I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. They're in the same situation either way; either they've "lost" money in both cases or they haven't. Their loss is measured by their situation, not anyone else's. I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. You mean artists can never lose money -- because no matter how many people are ripping them off, their situation hasn't changed?

      It's part of the agreement I had with the bank when I opened the account: I wouldn't have deposited any money unless I knew I'd be able to get it back. I suppose it's probably written into some law too, but that's beside the point. I hope agreements need to be honored in your universe? Just explicit ones, or even implicit ones? Just the ones you deem fit, or the ones the law requires you to recognize? Like, for instance, was there some explicit agreement that you cannot just edit your 'just a number' balance on your monthly statement, and take it to them and have them adjust it? Was there really some explicit agreement not to use a random number generator to decide what your balance is? Did you actually check for that clause, or did you just assume there's no way they would do that?
    229. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      What he can't do is stop other people from selling books containing the same sequence of words.

      Yes he can, if he wants to. Assuming you live in the US, he can do that. We the people have collectively given him this right. If you want to change that, you need to start a campaign. Good luck finding people who agree with you.

      Getting paid for the original act of creating. (is their incentive)

      And you, o mighty one, get to decide how that happens (i.e. only before creating, and not by selling units later).

      If you pay me to write some code, I don't care if you sell it or give it away later - getting paid for writing it was all the incentive I needed.

      Depends on the terms. I might be paying for ownership of the code. If not, the code is still yours to do whatever you see fit with. If you write code for some company, the code is theirs to do with as they see fit. Try taking the same code you create, and hand it over to their competitor. Watch how fast you end up in the slammer. How many more of your crazy analogies do I need to shoot down?

      No, they didn't do that work for me. They've never even met me!

      They couldn't possibly. They didn't know you existed. You didn't know they existed. How do they get this proposal of work to be done, and payment for said work? Do we all browse proposals for 2 hours a day?

      They did it wishing that people would pay them for copies of the completed game, but that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to make that wish come true.

      Exactly -- you're under no obligation to make the wish come true -- don't buy the game. If you 'procure' the game by some other means, well, you owe them.

      But you just said I downloaded a torrent, so that means someone (or a few dozen people) was willing to give me access under a different set of terms.

      Yeah? Well, whomever uploaded a free copy first is violating the first agreement they entered into. And every downloader after that is doing business with a theif who is not authorized to supply you with the download.

      They have no right to dictate the terms of a transaction between two other parties.

      You can repeat that ad-infinitum, but you'll still be wrong about that. Your theft of their product is subject to (and in violation of) their terms.

      I don't know if I can forgive them that easily. It's a pretty foolish thing for them to do, considering the nature of their "product".

      Funny.

      Oh, please. You know what I meant: the people who perform a service.

      Again, you make a distinction that suits you conveniently. I know what you meant, but that doesn't make it valid.

      Once the car is manufactured, it's then sold like any other physical product, by transferring ownership in exchange for money. But again, ownership isn't transferred until someone has agreed to pay for the car. The dealer doesn't just deliver a car to your doorstep, unsolicited, and then bill you for it.

      Nor does he tell you what you can or can't do with the car once you've bought it. He doesn't try to limit you like copyright holders do, for example by saying you can only park it someplace where it can be seen by fewer than 10 people at a time.

      The dealer certainly doesn't show up unsolicited. You wanted the car. The song doesn't store itself on your HDD unsolicited. You wanted that song. The song and the car you seeked out are products you wanted. But again you'll see the big picture in the case that suits you, and refuse to in the one that doesn't. The car is 100% your property. But there are restrictions that apply. You can't reset the odometer. You can't legally modify the car in certain ways. And much more. These restrictions are written down in the law, just the same way copyright is. You don't get to pick and choose, my friend.

      And about being seen by fewer than 10 people at a time

    230. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      So every artist must ask if you want to pay for their effort to create their song before they create it, otherwise they have no right to ask for compensation? That's right.

      But that doesn't mean they need to have an agreement with "the whole planet". They don't need to get compensation from everyone on earth, or even from everyone who ends up getting a copy of the song. They only need to collect as much money (or agreements to pay, etc.) as they feel their time is worth.

      But these people have absolutely no clue what they're signing up for. Maybe you can describe your song to them without actually creating it. Maybe you can hope they understand what you're proposing. Yup. Nothing new there. If you want someone to hire you to do a service for them, you have to describe it well enough for them to make that decision.

      Maybe you can hope that nobody else understands your description well enough to create the song before you. If someone hears your proposal and takes it upon himself to record the song you've described before you record it yourself, and his version is good enough that no one wants to hear yours, I can see how that would be frustrating. But I don't think it's worth worrying about in terms of policy. I mean, if he's willing to record all that music for free, that seems like a good thing overall.

      This is the seller's transaction -- you're attempting to acquire the seller's property. Just a number, or otherwise. You don't get to define this as someone else's transaction just because you're doing it behind the seller's back. Er, that's precisely the definition of whose transaction it is. If I'm offering you something, that's a transaction between you and me. Not between you, me, and some guy halfway across the world who doesn't even know the transaction is taking place.

      You mean artists can never lose money -- because no matter how many people are ripping them off, their situation hasn't changed? If the amount of money they have never gets smaller, then no, they're not losing any money. They can lose time, but only if someone promises them money for work and then refuses to pay when the work is done.

      Was there really some explicit agreement not to use a random number generator to decide what your balance is? Did you actually check for that clause, or did you just assume there's no way they would do that? You know, to tell you the truth, I didn't check for that clause. Damn. Well, if there is one, and they end up using it against me, you can say "I told you so".
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    231. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      And you, o mighty one, get to decide how that happens (i.e. only before creating, and not by selling units later). Hmm. Does that make me mighty? Who was it that decided how people who mow lawns get paid (i.e. only before mowing, and not by mowing every lawn unsolicited and then demanding money later)? There are a lot more of them than there are artists; I bet that guy is even mightier than I am.

      Try taking the same code you create, and hand it over to their competitor. Watch how fast you end up in the slammer. Thanks for the warning, but I'm quite aware of the current state of copyright law. I thought it was understood that we were talking about how things should be, not how they are, especially in the paragraph I was responding to.

      How do they get this proposal of work to be done, and payment for said work? Do we all browse proposals for 2 hours a day? The artists seek out customers themselves, or they go to a middleman who connects them to customers (much like a record label does today), or the customers go to a middleman who connects them to artists. Or the customers seek out artists themselves, if they're motivated enough. See sellaband.com for one example of what these middlemen could look like.

      The song doesn't store itself on your HDD unsolicited. You wanted that song. Right, but the work was done unsolicited. Like I said, no one else does unsolicited work and then thinks they're entitled to get paid for it after the fact. That delusion only seems to affect people in the handful of industries that have been taken over by copyright.

      And about being seen by fewer than 10 people at a time, I assume you're taking a dig at some dumbass DRM restriction. Not quite. I was taking a dig at the "public performance" restrictions of copyright. If I buy a DVD, I can play it at home, but I can't play it on a big screen in front of a few hundred people. I might not even be allowed to play the radio in front of that many people.

      But until that point, people like you will make sure that everybody else suffers with stronger and stronger DRM. Luckily, people like me have the most motivation to find new ways around that DRM, because we're the ones who want to make all those unauthorized copies. You're welcome. ;)
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    232. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Was there really some explicit agreement not to use a random number generator to decide what your balance is? Did you actually check for that clause, or did you just assume there's no way they would do that? You know, to tell you the truth, I didn't check for that clause. Damn. Well, if there is one, and they end up using it against me, you can say "I told you so". I've got a better idea -- why not put your theory to test? You don't have a problem doing it with online downloads, where you essentially face no penalty even though you're in the wrong. Not so righteous now, are you?
    233. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Right, but the work was done unsolicited. You solicited the song, which is the result of the work.

      See sellaband.com for one example of what these middlemen could look like. Nice work Sherlock. Now read the terms and conditions on that website. I quote:

      5.5 All rights in the titles on the CD, including intellectual and commercial property rights as well as master and copying rights and comparable rights are SellaBand's rights exclusively.

      6.1 The believer agrees not to infringe the intellectual property in relation to brands, trade names, trade marks, copyrights of SellaBand, and notably the program and the website, and not to distribute, modify, reproduce or use in another way the brands, designs and copyrights.

      Luckily, people like me have the most motivation to find new ways around that DRM, because we're the ones who want to make all those unauthorized copies. You're welcome. ;) Welcome for what? I never stole any songs. I never purchased any FairPlay or PlaysForSure songs. I have ripped CDs I already owned (but never uploaded). And I'm now a customer of Amazon mp3 downloads. You can keep your loot to yourself.
    234. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      You solicited the song, which is the result of the work. I asked a random torrent user to send me a copy of the song. But I didn't ask the artist to record that song in the first place; he did that of his own free will, unsolicited. If I owed compensation to either of them, it'd be the torrent user.

      Nice work Sherlock. Now read the terms and conditions on that website. I quote: [etc.] You're right, Sellaband isn't a perfect implementation of this business model, although it's closer than anything else I've seen. The basic model of a social networking site that combines artist/user profiles, messaging, audio clips, etc. with financial support and progress updates is what I wanted to point out there.

      Sellaband connects artists to fans and lets them raise money directly from lots of small contributions. However, instead of giving that money to the artist, they use it to rent a recording studio and produce an album; then they sell CDs and cheap/free downloads. I'd make a few changes if I could:

      1. Let the artist set their own goal instead of a fixed $50k.
      2. Give artists the option of doing their own recording and production. Hold the money in escrow or release it according to a schedule.
      3. Offer free-as-in-speech downloads of every song.
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    235. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I've got a better idea -- why not put your theory to test? You don't have a problem doing it with online downloads, where you essentially face no penalty even though you're in the wrong. Not so righteous now, are you? Not sure which "theory" you're referring to, but it is totally gnarly that you think I'm righteous. Cowabunga, dude!
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    236. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I asked a random torrent user to send me a copy of the song. But I didn't ask the artist to record that song in the first place; he did that of his own free will, unsolicited. If I owed compensation to either of them, it'd be the torrent user. You solicited and procured the product of the artists work. You owe the artist.

      You're right, Sellaband isn't a perfect implementation of this business model, although it's closer than anything else I've seen. The basic model of a social networking site that combines artist/user profiles, messaging, audio clips, etc. with financial support and progress updates is what I wanted to point out there. But you don't get to point out only the part that suits your argument. Sellaband recognizes law, copyright, intellectual property, etc. etc. In fact, it wholeheartedly embraced them. Nice example.

      Sellaband connects artists to fans and lets them raise money directly from lots of small contributions. However, instead of giving that money to the artist, they use it to rent a recording studio and produce an album; then they sell CDs and cheap/free downloads. I'd make a few changes if I could:
      1. Let the artist set their own goal instead of a fixed $50k.
      2. Give artists the option of doing their own recording and production. Hold the money in escrow or release it according to a schedule.
      3. Offer free-as-in-speech downloads of every song.
      It's rather rich to pretend you're batting on the same side as the artists after all you've posted so far. Your only concern seems to be your rights, and how to justify screwing the artists so you can get their product for free.
    237. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I've got a better idea -- why not put your theory to test? You don't have a problem doing it with online downloads, where you essentially face no penalty even though you're in the wrong. Not so righteous now, are you? Not sure which "theory" you're referring to, but it is totally gnarly that you think I'm righteous. Cowabunga, dude! Your theory that a number (song, music, movie, app) is just 'a number', and nobody can infringe on your right to do whatever you want with 'a number'.
    238. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "No. That was the whole point of bringing up political campaigns: thousands of people pay a small amount, and those small payments add up to millions of dollars. (As you pointed out, political campaign contributions are donations, but then we both agreed it's a "payment" instead when you're guaranteed something in return, which in this case would be the service of writing software.)

      Instead of having one person pay $10 million for development, you could have a million people each paying $10, or a hundred thousand each paying $100, or some combination of both: all that matters is that the company eventually collects the $10 million they're looking for."

      Companies can do that if they choose, but most decide to go with the traditional model. If a million people were using the software and a company like adobe had to support them, the price would quickly go up.

      "I have the right to communicate (which may involve sharing numbers that represent software) and to use my own property (which may involve feeding one of those numbers into my computer)."

      Software isn't your property. Even when you purchase it, you are buying the right to use it, not to own the original source code. And saying that sharing numbers is free speech is a bit of a stretch.

      Making it harder for businesses to make money by not protecting their rights in any industry will quickly make it disappear.

    239. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Companies can do that if they choose, but most decide to go with the traditional model. Unfortunately, the "traditional model" depends on seizing everyone else's rights. The model I've described is one that will work even when those rights are returned.

      If a million people were using the software and a company like adobe had to support them, the price would quickly go up. Or Adobe would charge for support, which makes sense since many of those people would've gotten the software for free.

      Software isn't your property. Software isn't anyone's property. It's a sequence of bits, a pattern, a number. You can't own a number whether it's ten digits or ten million digits.

      And saying that sharing numbers is free speech is a bit of a stretch. Not really. If you have a book, sharing the information that's in it is equivalent to describing it in excruciating detail.

      That is, when someone asks you to tell them about that book, you might start by telling them what it's called and who wrote it. You might describe the picture on the cover. You might repeat the blurbs on the inside cover. If they still want to know more about it, you might start by telling them what the first word in the story is. Then the second word. Then the third word, and so on.

      All you're doing is telling them facts about the book, a physical object that you own. That's speech, unquestionably. And the same applies to discs: there's a certain pattern of bits stamped into that CD, and if you're prohibited from describing it to someone else, that's a restriction on your speech - someone else is forcing you to keep a secret.
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    240. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      You solicited and procured the product of the artists work. Which is quite different from asking the artist to do the work in the first place. I'm sorry you have so much trouble understanding that.

      It's rather rich to pretend you're batting on the same side as the artists after all you've posted so far. Your only concern seems to be your rights, and how to justify screwing the artists so you can get their product for free. Now that's rich - particularly, as you say, after everything I've posted so far. If I were really as cheap and selfish as this phony caricature you've made up, I wouldn't have bothered proposing a business model by which people like me can pay artists for their work while still retaining our rights.
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    241. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Your theory that a number (song, music, movie, app) is just 'a number', and nobody can infringe on your right to do whatever you want with 'a number'. Oh. Not sure how you'd want me to test that, or why. You can look at sites like The Pirate Bay and see thousands of other people testing it every day.

      If you're still talking about that bank balance nonsense, go back and read my earlier responses in which I explained why that argument is fatally flawed.
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    242. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You solicited and procured the product of the artists work. Which is quite different from asking the artist to do the work in the first place. I'm sorry you have so much trouble understanding that. It doesn't matter. You still owe the artist money for the product you solicited and procured. I'm sorry you have so much trouble understanding that. You're able to trace the contractual obligations between you and your car dealer all the way to guys on the assembly line getting paid. But you're unable to see the breach in contract from the first illegal downloader and all that follow. Brilliant logic dude!

      Now that's rich - particularly, as you say, after everything I've posted so far. If I were really as cheap and selfish as this phony caricature you've made up, I wouldn't have bothered proposing a business model by which people like me can pay artists for their work while still retaining our rights. You didn't -- you proposed a business model in which as much profitability as possible is taken out of the picture for the artists, and you get your music for free.
    243. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Your theory that a number (song, music, movie, app) is just 'a number', and nobody can infringe on your right to do whatever you want with 'a number'.
      Oh. Not sure how you'd want me to test that, or why. You can look at sites like The Pirate Bay and see thousands of other people testing it every day.

      That's exactly my point -- that's not the test of it's legality (or even right/wrong -- ignoring the law) -- that's you using your 'just a number' theory in an arena where you know you will never get caught even if the theory is flawed.

      If you're still talking about that bank balance nonsense, go back and read my earlier responses in which I explained why that argument is fatally flawed. Except that you didn't expose any flaw. You cited agreements and obligations. Your contract with the bank. Trace back the agreements the same way for free downloads and you'll see that the first free downloader and all subsequent ones are in violation of the terms of sale. It's the same as you stealing money from the bank and then someone else stealing that money from you. The second theif is still a theif, even though he had no agreement with the bank.
    244. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Unfortunately, the "traditional model" depends on seizing everyone else's rights. The model I've described is one that will work even when those rights are returned"

      At the expense of the companies rights. Even with no copyrights, companies will not resort to your model. It just doesn't work.

      "Or Adobe would charge for support, which makes sense since many of those people would've gotten the software for free."

      How would they have gotten it for free if everyone is paying a small amount for it? If someone has the ability to not pay under your model, then it is called a donation. I would say about 10-20% of the people that are asked to donate actually donate.

      Wikipedia, which probably costs millions to run and is one of the most popular websites on the Internet got less than $100,000 in donations. This is probably less than 1% of the people that visit the site.

      A few years back, Stephen king wrote a book, released it exclusively online, and asked for donations. Less than 5% donated and his book was shared across the Internet. He hasn't released one online since then, and sells many copies every time he comes out with a new book.

      "All you're doing is telling them facts about the book, a physical object that you own. That's speech, unquestionably. And the same applies to discs: there's a certain pattern of bits stamped into that CD, and if you're prohibited from describing it to someone else, that's a restriction on your speech - someone else is forcing you to keep a secret."

      Just lik with books, you can tell them about the software, what it's called, and who it's by (or with music, what it sounds like). That is your freedom of speech.

      You don't, however, have the freedom to photo-copy an entire book at the local library and give it out for free when someone asks.

      Books have the same business model as software. Binding and paper are very negligible costs compared to the unique content written on the pages. People are charged per copy, not per job, and they don't have rights to re-distribute it.

    245. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      How would they have gotten it for free if everyone is paying a small amount for it? The people who are paying are paying for production -- the act of writing the program in the first place -- not for copies. Copies are freely available after it's written, because no one owns the program.

      And not "everyone" needs to pay. Only enough people for the programmers to collect an amount of money that they feel is fair for the work they're going to do.

      If someone has the ability to not pay under your model, then it is called a donation. No, it isn't. Remember when we talked about this before? We agreed that if you're paying for a service, with specified terms and recourse if the service isn't performed, it's not a donation. It's a payment.

      Suppose there are ten people living on a dirt road, and they're thinking about having the road paved. The pavers want $10,000 to do the job. If they all pooled their money, they'd pay $1000 each.

      Now suppose the tenth guy doesn't want to pay. The other nine decide they're each willing to pay a little more to get the road paved (i.e. they think living on a paved road is worth $1111.11), so they pay for the service and the tenth guy gets to live on a paved road for free.

      Does that mean the payments were "donations"? Of course not. The pavers agreed to do a certain task in exchange for the money, and if they didn't do a good job of it, the people who paid could demand their money back. That's not a donation. It's paying for a service.

      You don't, however, have the freedom to photo-copy an entire book at the local library and give it out for free when someone asks. Under copyright law as it currently exists, you're right, I don't. But I should. The order in which words appear in that book is a fact about that book, just like the name of the author or the color of the binding, and to tell me I can't describe that aspect of the book to someone is to stifle my freedom of speech for no reason except to put a buck in someone else's pocket.

      Books have the same business model as software. Yes, and I'm proposing the same direct-payment business model for books as well as software.
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    246. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      You're able to trace the contractual obligations between you and your car dealer all the way to guys on the assembly line getting paid. But you're unable to see the breach in contract from the first illegal downloader and all that follow. Breach of contract? Hilarious! Please, tell me more about the planet you live on where people sign a contract before downloading a torrent.

      You didn't -- you proposed a business model in which as much profitability as possible is taken out of the picture for the artists, and you get your music for free. Again, more hilarity. Let me know when your next stand-up special is on: if this is the material you use in your free time on Slashdot, I can't wait to see the stuff you use professionally.
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    247. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      That's exactly my point -- that's not the test of it's legality No shit. Need I remind you once again that I'm aware of the current state of copyright law?

      Except that you didn't expose any flaw. You cited agreements and obligations. Oh, and the little fact that my account balance is stored in the bank's private property. You're conflating "tell a number you know to someone else who wants to hear it" with "hack into someone else's computer against their will and change a number", which, although they both involve the concept of numbers at some level, are nothing alike.

      Trace back the agreements the same way for free downloads and you'll see that the first free downloader and all subsequent ones are in violation of the terms of sale. It's the same as you stealing money from the bank and then someone else stealing that money from you. The second theif is still a theif, even though he had no agreement with the bank. It's not the same at all, because money has an owner. Money belongs to someone. To give it away, you have to be the owner, because you can't transfer ownership you don't have.

      Numbers, however, don't belong to anyone. You don't need any special status to tell someone a number. You just need to know what the number is.

      So although you can't give away an object that someone else owns, you can share a number that someone else claims to own, because claiming to own a number is absurd and meaningless.

      Furthermore, when you buy a CD, there's only one agreement: you agree to exchange money for goods. I don't know how they do things in your neck of the woods, but around here, I've never had to sign a contract giving up any of my rights when I've bought music, movies, or software.
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    248. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Breach of contract? Hilarious! Please, tell me more about the planet you live on where people sign a contract before downloading a torrent. Did you even read that sentence? Some dude who actually bought the CD, ripped it, posted it on bittorrent (or sold it like AllOfMP3) is the guy who's breaking his agreement with the artist. All subsequent free downloads of this ripped track are basically stolen goods.

      Again, more hilarity. Let me know when your next stand-up special is on: if this is the material you use in your free time on Slashdot, I can't wait to see the stuff you use professionally. Ah! You mock me. So you have no proper defence for that point then? Can you refute that your model deflates all the profitability from the artists, and provides you your much coveted free downloads?
    249. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      No shit. Need I remind you once again that I'm aware of the current state of copyright law? And this proves that pirate bay is legal? or morally right? or what? What's your point?

      Oh, and the little fact that my account balance is stored in the bank's private property. You're conflating "tell a number you know to someone else who wants to hear it" with "hack into someone else's computer against their will and change a number", which, although they both involve the concept of numbers at some level, are nothing alike. And again, you see the big picture when it suits you, and pedantically cling to "it's just a number when it suits you".

      It's not the same at all, because money has an owner. Money belongs to someone. To give it away, you have to be the owner, because you can't transfer ownership you don't have. So what? If you stole 'x' from bank, and dude stole 'x' from you, both of you stole 'x'. So if somebody stole a track from an artist and you steal the track from this person, you still stole a track.

      Numbers, however, don't belong to anyone. So you're back to "it's just a number". Can't see the big picture any more? Remind me again why you can't change the bank balance on your last statement and just have your bank make a correction. You don't have to hack into the bank's computer to do that. And after all, "it's just a number" -- why would they deny your request? Oh, you say this number actually represnts something? Guess what -- the other 'numbers' represent music, movies, games and apps. You're being selective again about what big-picture you want to see, based on what you can get for free (and what you can get away with).

      You don't need any special status to tell someone a number. You just need to know what the number is. I suggest the next time you want to play a game without paying it, you write down that number from memory. You never knew the number. Some entity put in the effort to create this number. You stole it by downloading it for free.

      So although you can't give away an object that someone else owns, you can share a number that someone else claims to own, because claiming to own a number is absurd and meaningless. And claiming that a song/movie/game/app is just a number, (yet again) is you refusing to acknowledge the fact that this number is somebody's creation. It's not a random number picked out of thin air. It's not a number that you can substitute with another and get the same result. It's not even something you can approximate. It's a product that came together as a result of some entity's work. It performs some function (entertainment or whatever) because of which you solicited it. The entity want to sell this product to you -- and you want to steal it. Your point about it's super-low cost of replication is what's absurd and meaningless.
    250. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Did you even read that sentence? Some dude who actually bought the CD, ripped it, posted it on bittorrent (or sold it like AllOfMP3) is the guy who's breaking his agreement with the artist. Except there was no agreement between that guy and the artist. When you go into a record store, you don't shake the artist's hand and promise never to let anyone else know the secret of what number is stored on that CD you're buying. You make an agreement with the clerk, representing the store, to give him money in exchange for ownership of that physical object. That agreement might say something about returns or financing, but it doesn't say anything about copying.

      Can you refute that your model deflates all the profitability from the artists Of course. It's silly to think it "deflates all the profitability" when artists can still ask any price they want for their labor. That's like claiming there's no profit to be made as a barber, a landscaper, or an accountant, just because they make their money by charging for their time instead of marking up the price of a physical object.

      The profit is whatever money you bring in, minus your costs. If you take three months to write something, and your expenses during that time are $3000, but you collect $5000 for the work, then you've made $2000 profit.

      and provides you your much coveted free downloads? The act of downloading a song is, itself, free. But paying the artist to record the song in the first place isn't. If I'm the one paying the artist, I'm not really getting anything for free, and in fact I may even be paying more overall - I know I'd be willing to pay more than the price of a CD to fund production of a favorite band's next album.
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    251. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Except there was no agreement between that guy and the artist. When you go into a record store, you don't shake the artist's hand and promise never to let anyone else know the secret of what number is stored on that CD you're buying. And you didn't shake the bank manager's hand and promise never to change your 'just a number' bank balance.

      Can you refute that your model deflates all the profitability from the artists Of course. It's silly to think it "deflates all the profitability" when artists can still ask any price they want for their labor. They don't even know if they have a hit on their hands at that time. Your model does indeed deprive the artists. No to mention the little detail of you getting their song for free, which seems to be all you care about.

      The profit is whatever money you bring in, minus your costs. Thanks for the economics lesson.

      The act of downloading a song is, itself, free. But paying the artist to record the song in the first place isn't. There are hidden costs which i already explained, but never mind that for now. You still haven't explained why that gives you the right to download songs for free -- just because the artist chose a distribution model you don't prefer.

      I know I'd be willing to pay more than the price of a CD to fund production of a favorite band's next album. After all your attempts at justifying your cheapness don't even bother telling anyone you would actually do this -- you don't have a shred of credibility for this claim.
    252. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      And this proves that pirate bay is legal? or morally right? or what? What's your point? I suppose it proves that in practice, people can't effectively infringe on your right to share numbers.

      I'm not entirely sure what your point was that I was responding to, actually, so it's hard to say. You wrote about testing the theory that "nobody can infringe on your right to do whatever you want with 'a number'" - well, obviously, they have the legal ability to infringe on it. The test for that is simply reading the law. Morally, they can't, but there's no test for morals. Realistically, they can't, and the test for that is to observe that copyright infringement is still as common as ever; the people who want to exercise their right to share information are almost always able to do it.

      And again, you see the big picture when it suits you, and pedantically cling to "it's just a number when it suits you". Nope. You just refuse to respond to what I've actually said; you'd prefer to fight the strawman of some crazy guy claiming the right to do whatever he wants, anywhere in the world, involving other people against their will if need be, as long as a number is involved at some point in the process.

      That's not what I'm claiming, it never was, and I've pointed that out repeatedly. But you still refuse to listen.

      Remind me again why you can't change the bank balance on your last statement and just have your bank make a correction. You don't have to hack into the bank's computer to do that. I can cross out the number on my bank statement and write in a different one, sure. It's my piece of paper and I can write whatever I want on it.

      I can even bring it into the bank. It's my piece of paper, the bank doesn't care about that.

      But you seem to be asking whether I can force the bank to update their records with that change or give me more money than I've actually deposited. Obviously, I can't do that, and I've never said anything that would lead a reasonable person to believe that I thought I could.

      I could ask them to, sure. And then they'd say no, and that would be that.

      Oh, you say this number actually represnts something? Guess what -- the other 'numbers' represent music, movies, games and apps. Heh, talk about not being able to see the "big picture"! You get as far as recognizing that those numbers represent something, but then you shut off your brain before considering that it might actually matter what they represent.

      Hint: the most important part of "that number represents an obligation" is the word obligation, not represents.

      I suggest the next time you want to play a game without paying it, you write down that number from memory. You never knew the number. Originally, no. But someone else knew it, and they told it to me. That's how knowledge spreads.

      And claiming that a song/movie/game/app is just a number, (yet again) is you refusing to acknowledge the fact that this number is somebody's creation. You're mistaken, sir. I explicitly acknowledged it earlier, and of course I never denied it in the first place. Someone came up with that number, but that doesn't change what it is. No one can own a number, any number, whether they came up with it or not.
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    253. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      And you didn't shake the bank manager's hand and promise never to change your 'just a number' bank balance. Nor did he promise to let me change it at any time. It's stored on his property, after all, not mine, so I would need his permission.

      Really, you're only making yourself look foolish with this bank nonsense. I mean, keep going if you want, I'll knock them down as fast as you set them up. But surely you have something better to say.

      They don't even know if they have a hit on their hands at that time. So? The barber doesn't know if the haircut I'm paying for will give me the edge I need to land a high-paying job or marry a supermodel. He's doing exactly the same work whether it does or not, though, so it doesn't really matter.

      It is true that shifting from the "roll the dice and pray to strike it rich" model to a "get paid for working" model would make it hard to achieve massive superstar levels of profit. But most people aren't superstars anyway. That occasional loss would be offset by the fact that everyone would be guaranteed a profit for the work they do, whether it turned out to be a hit or not.

      No to mention the little detail of you getting their song for free, which seems to be all you care about. Well, it's certainly all you like to pretend I care about.

      You still haven't explained why that gives you the right to download songs for free -- just because the artist chose a distribution model you don't prefer. Because someone else is willing to upload them for free, and the artist has no right to force his "distribution model" on our transaction. I'm sure we've been over this before.

      After all your attempts at justifying your cheapness don't even bother telling anyone you would actually do this -- you don't have a shred of credibility for this claim. Uh huh. Sure. I could make a similarly snotty remark about how after all the enthusiasm you've shown for limiting other people's speech, you don't have a shred of credibility when you claim to dislike DRM, since its main purpose is to limit speech.

      But instead, I'll take your word for it, since you're a better judge of your opinions than I am, and I'll try to understand how you can give the impression of wanting to stifle speech without actually wanting to do it. Perhaps you could try something similar.
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    254. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "The people who are paying are paying for production -- the act of writing the program in the first place -- not for copies. Copies are freely available after it's written, because no one owns the program.

      And not "everyone" needs to pay. Only enough people for the programmers to collect an amount of money that they feel is fair for the work they're going to do."

      In your fantastic world of software companies using this model, what is to stop the first person buying it and giving it out for free to everyone else (before the company recoups the total cost of development).

      Most freelancers/contractors don't give the complete program if the total development costs aren't paid. So, does that mean that nobody gets the software until the complete cost by everyone together is paid (since it's not a donation)? (which could take weeks, months, or years to collect).

      "Suppose there are ten people living on a dirt road, and they're thinking about having the road paved. The pavers want $10,000 to do the job. If they all pooled their money, they'd pay $1000 each.

      Now suppose the tenth guy doesn't want to pay. The other nine decide they're each willing to pay a little more to get the road paved (i.e. they think living on a paved road is worth $1111.11), so they pay for the service and the tenth guy gets to live on a paved road for free.

      Does that mean the payments were "donations"? Of course not. The pavers agreed to do a certain task in exchange for the money, and if they didn't do a good job of it, the people who paid could demand their money back. That's not a donation. It's paying for a service."

      Do you realize how many problems there are with your business model? Let's say the 9 people give the pavers $8000. He needs the other $2000 or he won't actually complete the work. Imagine this happening with thousands (or a million) people.

      Can the pavers take them all to court if they don't pay? and if they do, who pays if they win, is the judgement divided among the 9? and should that 10th person be involved if he didn't pay?

      This works for a small amount of people pooling their money together, but it doesn't scale. It would be too much of a pain in the ass for all parties involved. This is why this model isn't used.

      People, by nature, will not pay if they don't have to (see: anything funded by donations and taxes). Once they learn that they may pay but other people may or may not have to, the actual number of people willing to pay will go down considerably, the cost will go up for each customer (since there is less to divide), and the likelihood that they will actually get to the total cost is almost nothing.

    255. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      In your fantastic world of software companies using this model, what is to stop the first person buying it and giving it out for free to everyone else (before the company recoups the total cost of development). Simple: the software isn't written until the money has been collected (or at least pledged via a binding contract).

      So, does that mean that nobody gets the software until the complete cost by everyone together is paid (since it's not a donation)? Yes.

      Let's say the 9 people give the pavers $8000. He needs the other $2000 or he won't actually complete the work. Correction: the pavers need the other $2000 or they won't even start the work. If they said the work is worth $10,000, they're not going to change their minds and do it for $8000 instead.

      Now, that doesn't mean they literally need to have the cash in their hands. It's enough for the customers to agree, before the work is done, that they'll pay afterward; that's how it works with a lot of services.

      Can the pavers take them all to court if they don't pay? and if they do, who pays if they win, is the judgement divided among the 9? Anyone who promises beforehand that he'll pay, but refuses to pay once the work is done, has broken his agreement and is liable as an individual. Everyone who held up their part of the deal is fine.

      and should that 10th person be involved if he didn't pay? No. He might benefit from the work, but that's beside the point; he didn't ask for it to be done and he didn't agree to pay.

      This works for a small amount of people pooling their money together, but it doesn't scale. You haven't shown that to be true.

      People, by nature, will not pay if they don't have to (see: anything funded by donations and taxes). Er... political campaigns manage to raise huge amounts of money via donations. Everyone who decides to send in money knows that they don't have to do it, but they choose to do it anyway, because they also know that if no one contributes, the goal will never be met.

      In the case of a group pooling their money to fund a program, everyone who contributes knows that they don't have to pay -- they could wait for other people to pay and then enjoy the result for free -- but they also know that if they don't pay, that makes it more likely that the software will never be written at all.

      If they care enough about the software being written, they'll choose to pay. If they don't care whether it's written or not, then they won't. If hardly anyone cares whether the software is written, then it won't be written, but so what? That's what already happens today, except instead of knowing how many people want to pay for the software, the programmers have to guess how many people will buy copies. When they guess wrong, they waste their effort and fail to recoup their development costs.
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    256. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Simple: the software isn't written until the money has been collected (or at least pledged via a binding contract)."

      There will still be problems with this. Most people will not be willing to give their money to a company and wait a week, a month, or a year (or many years) before getting their software. The software can't really be given out to anyone until all money has actually been collected, because anyone that has paid could release it on the internet and prevent the rest of the money from getting collected.

      Going back to your paving example, paving a road is simple (it's either paved or not paved..I guess an option might be the material used). Software involves hundreds or thousands of features. If everyone owns it, who decides what goes into it with regards to features? I have been involved with many software projects over the past couple of years and even a group of 10 people wanting different features can add 6 months (or more) onto the time-line of a software app (unless there is someone managing those 10 people and filtering out/making final decisions).

      "Anyone who promises beforehand that he'll pay, but refuses to pay once the work is done, has broken his agreement and is liable as an individual. Everyone who held up their part of the deal is fine."

      They won't be getting the software until they either pay up for those missing people or the company gets the rest of their money (and then, the people that refuse to pay will be getting the software anyway). As a customer, why would I even want to pay in the first place if I know someone else will eventually have to pick up the slack and I will get the software for free anyway?

      "You haven't shown that to be true."

      I just explained above and I still stand by this. It will not scale.

      "Er... political campaigns manage to raise huge amounts of money via donations. Everyone who decides to send in money knows that they don't have to do it, but they choose to do it anyway, because they also know that if no one contributes, the goal will never be met."

      Political campaigns are very important to people. In many ways as important as religion. Software software is not nearly as important and will not get these types of donations. Even the red cross can't get enough people to donate.

      "If hardly anyone cares whether the software is written, then it won't be written, but so what? That's what already happens today, except instead of knowing how many people want to pay for the software, the programmers have to guess how many people will buy copies. When they guess wrong, they waste their effort and fail to recoup their development costs."

      I'm surprised you are actually fighting for this model, because it adds significant risk for all the customers involved. They will be giving money to a company on blind faith and may not be getting anything in return for a couple of months or maybe a year (and may not even get their original investment back until that point either if things fall through).

      I also don't think it will be very easy to get a couple thousand people to sign a contract, especially if a company is selling it online. What about international orders? Having a binding contracts in multiple countries would be a nightmare in paperwork and might not be enforceable.

      As a customer, this is too much of a pain in the ass for me. I would rather just find a good piece of software, buy it, and start using it. I don't want to have to wait weeks or years until a shitload of paperwork goes through for me to get software that I can "own".

      "That's what already happens today, except instead of knowing how many people want to pay for the software, the programmers have to guess how many people will buy copies. When they guess wrong, they waste their effort and fail to recoup their development costs."

      That is the free market at work. You take a huge risk and you could come out on top and make a profit...or lose all of it.

      Most successful companies selling software either:

    257. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      There will still be problems with this. Most people will not be willing to give their money to a company and wait a week, a month, or a year (or many years) before getting their software. The software can't really be given out to anyone until all money has actually been collected, because anyone that has paid could release it on the internet and prevent the rest of the money from getting collected. I don't think they'll have a problem putting at least some of the money down - look at video game presales, for example.

      But as I said, they wouldn't necessarily need to hand the cash over in advance. When you hire someone to do some work for you, whether it's writing a program or cutting your hair, that's your agreement to pay them once the work is done. If you try to stiff them, they'll press charges.

      If everyone owns it, who decides what goes into it with regards to features? The developers make that decision. If customers want to offer suggestions, and if the developers want to incorporate those suggestions, that's their choice, but it's not a fundamental aspect of the business model. Ultimately it boils down to the developers offering to write certain features and the customers deciding whether those features are worth paying for.

      As a customer, why would I even want to pay in the first place if I know someone else will eventually have to pick up the slack and I will get the software for free anyway? Why would you want to pay your cable bill, your phone bill, or your electric bill? When you hire someone to paint your house, why would you want to pay him after he's done it?

      Because you know that if you refuse to pay, you're committing theft of service or breach of contract, you'll go to court/jail, and you'll end up having to pay anyway. Unlike copyright infringement, which can be committed anonymously and without anyone ever knowing, in this case you specifically agreed to pay someone; they know who you are and where you live.

      I'm surprised you are actually fighting for this model, because it adds significant risk for all the customers involved. They will be giving money to a company on blind faith and may not be getting anything in return for a couple of months or maybe a year (and may not even get their original investment back until that point either if things fall through). Well, whatever risk it adds for the customer, it subtracts from the developer. But that's not why I prefer this model; I prefer it because it works without copyright, and eliminating copyright has countless benefits for consumers, developers/artists, and third parties (web hosts, electronics manufacturers, etc.) who have to deal with the enforcement of copyright.

      "When [programmers today] guess wrong, they waste their effort and fail to recoup their development costs."

      That is the free market at work. You take a huge risk and you could come out on top and make a profit...or lose all of it. Yes, and I wouldn't mind much if the only losers there were the developers who took the risk. But in order for that business model to have any chance of working at all, you need to pass and enforce copyright laws, and then everyone loses.

      There are thousands of software companies out there that could be using your model right now. There is nothing stopping them. They aren't because it isn't profitable. I'd say they aren't using it because it isn't as quick and convenient, for them, and because it's difficult to compete using this model when your competitors' model is subsidized by the government.
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    258. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      I used Macaulay2 (which was more or less open, at the time) and my own code in C++. I didn't buy Maple for the pretty graphics.

    259. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      I blame no one but myself for making the mistake, along with the previous mistake of buying Maple. That Maplesoft was in Canada was not something that I was thinking of when trying to install Maple, and since I had never called Canada before, I wasn't aware that you could call from the U.S. without entering a country code. Anyway, calling Canada was not expensive if you first tell the phone company to put you on the free "international plan". I was just a sucker three times over.

    260. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "I'd say they aren't using it because it isn't as quick and convenient, for them, and because it's difficult to compete using this model when your competitors' model is subsidized by the government."

      I don't think you know what subsidized means. Copyright holders don't get their content subsidized by the government, otherwise it would passed out for free and paid for by your taxes. Now, it is protected by the government through copyright laws.

      your model is not quick and convenient for them OR the customer, which is why they don't use it.

      "Why would you want to pay your cable bill, your phone bill, or your electric bill? When you hire someone to paint your house, why would you want to pay him after he's done it?"

      These are bad examples. If you don't pay any of those..you get your service shut-off. There is no theft of service. In your model, if you don't pay, you get it for free anyway. Give me an example of anything that works this way right now (and is successful).

      "Well, whatever risk it adds for the customer, it subtracts from the developer. But that's not why I prefer this model; I prefer it because it works without copyright, and eliminating copyright has countless benefits for consumers, developers/artists, and third parties (web hosts, electronics manufacturers, etc.) who have to deal with the enforcement of copyright."

      it has no benefits for developers/artists or anyone interested in creating something new. It would mean that if you don't find some way to protect yourself, a bigger company with more resources could steal your idea and you would have no recourse. This is why copyright was created in the first place. If you were a creator of anything worth copyrighting, you would understand this.

      "Yes, and I wouldn't mind much if the only losers there were the developers who took the risk. But in order for that business model to have any chance of working at all, you need to pass and enforce copyright laws, and then everyone loses."

      Everyone doesn't lose. Companies get protected, consumers get their music, movies, or software with almost no hoops to jump through. It's a win-win overall. The only people that lose are those that want to break the law and get shit for free. Which is what your argument is all about.

    261. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I don't think you know what subsidized means. Copyright holders don't get their content subsidized by the government, otherwise it would passed out for free and paid for by your taxes. Now, it is protected by the government through copyright laws.

      I didn't say the content was subsidized; the business model is what's subsidized, through copyright laws.

      Suppose I wanted to run a landscaping business where instead of asking people up front if they wanted their lawns mowed, I'd just go down the street, mowing every lawn, and then bill people for it later. I'd have a hard time getting money out of the people who didn't want to pay me, right? That would be a pretty stupid model for me to try to use, if I had to enforce it myself. But suppose the government offered to help me collect that money, say, by sending the sheriff to everyone's house if they wouldn't pay me. That would be a subsidy.

      And that's what copyright is. Ordinarily, it's pretty stupid to do all the work of creating something up front for free, then make it available to the public (by broadcasting it or just selling copies to people who are willing to share), and still expect people to buy copies from you. It only starts to look sensible if you know the government is going to help enforce your business model: in this case by letting you use the court system, at taxpayer expense, to extract money from the people who don't play along.

      These are bad examples. If you don't pay any of those..you get your service shut-off. There is no theft of service.

      Sure there is; they're fine examples even if you'd like to pretend they don't exist. If I use a bunch of electricity during the month of June, I'll get billed for it at the end of June. If I refuse to pay that bill, I will have gotten all that electricity for free.

      If I hire someone to paint my house, and then refuse to pay him once it's done, then I've gotten all that work for free. Theft of service. See how that works?

      In your model, if you don't pay, you get it for free anyway. Give me an example of anything that works this way right now (and is successful).

      Well, there are the four examples I gave you.

      There are plenty more, too: anything that you pay for after it's provided is something you could, theoretically, skip out on paying. A restaurant, for example: you could order a meal, eat it, and then sneak out without paying the check. And yet, most people don't do that; restaurants manage not to go out of business because of dine 'n dash. Now imagine how much less of a problem that would be if you had to identify yourself when you walked in, like you would when you agreed to pay for software development.

      it has no benefits for developers/artists or anyone interested in creating something new. It would mean that if you don't find some way to protect yourself, a bigger company with more resources could steal your idea and you would have no recourse.

      That's only a "problem" if you're already locked into the copyright mindset. If you're a little more open-minded, it doesn't matter, because you'll realize ideas can't be "stolen" at all.

      Abolishing copyright would have plenty of benefits for developers and artists: they wouldn't have to worry about whether what they were creating was a little too similar to something that had been created earlier. They'd be able to create derivative works (forking), or incorporate parts of other projects into their own instead of reinventing the wheel. Anyone who wants to write a sequel or a prequel, a remix or a mash-up, a parody or a critique, would avoid all the lawsuits that plague artists today: even if you can claim fair use, you still have to defend yourself against those lawsuits, and that threat is often enough to discourage you from creating what you have in mind.

      They'd also benefit from being able to use any tools they needed, of course.

      If you were a creator of anything worth copyrighting, you

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    262. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Because someone else is willing to upload them for free, and the artist has no right to force his "distribution model" on our transaction. I'm sure we've been over this before. I'm sure we have. Someone else is not merely "willing to upload them for free". They are stealing. And so are you when you download from them.

      Uh huh. Sure. I could make a similarly snotty remark about how after all the enthusiasm you've shown for limiting other people's speech, you don't have a shred of credibility when you claim to dislike DRM, since its main purpose is to limit speech. Except that we both refuse to purchase DRMed songs, but you rip the artist off and I don't.
    263. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You're mistaken, sir. I explicitly acknowledged it earlier [slashdot.org], and of course I never denied it in the first place. Someone came up with that number, but that doesn't change what it is. No one can own a number, any number, whether they came up with it or not. They own the product, and the product is what you solicited, and conferring upon yourself the right to access for free.

      Originally, no. But someone else knew it, and they told it to me. That's how knowledge spreads. You still don't know it. You never did. Its not your knowledge and it's not your speech.
    264. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      They own the product Well, no, they don't. No one owns that either.

      You seem to be acknowledging that, as indicated by common sense, no one can own these numbers. But you then seem to be claiming that a person can own the thing that's encoded in them, and that this gives them the right to stop the spread of the numbers.

      You're just adding a layer of abstraction, but that doesn't change anything: there's no more reason to believe you can own a song or a program than to believe you can own a number. All the same reasoning applies. A song can be everywhere at once, and no person's use of it can interfere with anyone else's use; like a number and unlike a physical object, a song is not subject to ownership, because there's no need for anyone to dictate how or where it may be used.

      You still don't know it. You never did. I know it as much as anyone does: I have the ability to look it up in my own storage media. I may not have memorized it, but neither has anyone else; we all understand that, as human beings, we're capable of augmenting our biological memory with technology.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    265. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Someone else is not merely "willing to upload them for free". They are stealing. Huh? Oh, you must mean that phony, toothless kind of "stealing" that's missing the one thing that makes real stealing objectionable. I think you'll find that, outside of the copyright industry, few people are concerned about that; I certainly am not.

      Except that we both refuse to purchase DRMed songs, but you rip the artist off and I don't. Do you really refuse to purchase them? I mean, you say you do, but if you won't believe me when I say I don't mind paying for things, why should I believe you? Everything you've said here suggests that you support the main principle behind DRM: that taking away consumer freedom is justified if it helps someone make a profit.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    266. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You seem to be acknowledging that, as indicated by common sense, no one can own these numbers. But you then seem to be claiming that a person can own the thing that's encoded in them, and that this gives them the right to stop the spread of the numbers. I'm arguing, that as indicated by common sense, you never knew the number, the product represented by the number is property, and you owe the creator if you solicit and download this property.

      I'm not adding any layer of abstraction. As usual, you're just refusing to see the obvious big picture, and sticking to your pedantic "it's just a number" claim.

    267. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find that, outside of the copyright industry, few people are concerned about that; I certainly am not. I know you're not concerned about it -- you're just trying to justify downloading stuff for free. There's no such thing as a copyright industry. The industry you might have been meaning to refer to is the artists, producers, game studios, software companies.

      Do you really refuse to purchase them? I mean, you say you do, but if you won't believe me when I say I don't mind paying for things, why should I believe you? That's fine dude -- you don't have to beleive me. I pointed out deficiencies in current DRM implementations, wholeheartedly agreed that they infringe on our rights, can be misused to restrict competition. I suggested to another poster to simply never ever buy a DRMd track. After all that, I honestly don't care if you beleive me or not. I do think you're trying to divert attention from your own cheapness at this point though.

      you've said here suggests that you support the main principle behind DRM: that taking away consumer freedom is justified if it helps someone make a profit. Really now? Everything I said? Do you mean the part where I said that FairPlay and PlaysForSure infringe on our right to Fair Use? Or where I cited our right to do Time Shifing? Or where I asked that the government and/or courts clearly identify our rights so that we can go after DRM systems that infringe on them? Or wait -- you're probably talking about the part where I said it should be illegal for a company to not license a DRM system (and there should be caps on the licensing fees) to force interoperability? Go re-read my posts.

      Look, this is getting beyond ridiculous. I can come to grips with the fact that I'm not going to be able to change your mind on this issue. I tried really hard. I appreciate that this conversation was more or less clean -- if anything I got frustrated an made a couple of unnecessary personal comments, and I apologize. Go ahead and do as you please (as if you wanted my approval anyway). If you get caught, it's just too bad I guess. I can't honestly say I wish you well -- I really hope you do get caught. But I don't see the point of continuing this thread -- it's clear you and I will never see eye to eye on this topic.

    268. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I'm arguing, that as indicated by common sense, you never knew the number The only way that can be true is if you're pedantically defining "knew" as "memorized", and by that definition, no one else knew it either. And yet they were still able to share it with each other. What a mystery!

      the product represented by the number is property You sure seem to think so, but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone of that just by stamping your foot. The defining characteristic of property is the need for an owner to mediate usage conflicts; songs and music need no such owner.

      and you owe the creator if you solicit and download this property. Not according to any sensible understanding of how people come to owe each other money. You can owe someone because they did a service for you, and the exchange of money was a term of that deal; or you can owe someone because they're selling you an object, and the exchange of money was a term of that deal. In both cases, the money is an incentive you provide in order to convince someone else to do something for you.

      It makes no sense, however, that A would owe money to B as a result of receiving information from C. In that situation, there's no deal between A and B at all. B wants the money, but that doesn't mean he's owed it. That money isn't an incentive for B to do anything, because whatever he might have done is in the past already; unless he has a time machine we don't know about, he can't go back and change the past based on whether or not he receives money in the present.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    269. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I know you're not concerned about it Hardly anyone else is, either, except for people in the industries that depend on copyright. Go ahead, ask someone "If there were a magical way I could make a copy of your car, and drive the copy home while leaving your car right in your driveway, as good as new, would you consider that stealing? And if I insisted on calling it stealing, would you consider it a form of stealing worth trying to stop?"

      Perhaps you could find a handful of people who'd be upset that you were able to drive a car for free when they had to pay good money for it, but even they might change their minds when they realized they wouldn't have to pay for their next car either. In general, people are concerned about theft because they lose the things that get stolen, not because they can't stand for other people to have access to the same things they do.

      Hell, ask anyone who's seen an episode of Star Trek if they think the replicator, and the post-scarcity economy it represents, is a good thing or a bad thing.

      Really now? Everything I said? Do you mean the part where [...] Go re-read my posts. No, I'm ignoring those parts in order to paint an inaccurate picture of your beliefs, just like you're ignoring things I wrote in order to do the same to me.

      I'm sure if I re-read your posts I'd find plenty of evidence that you really are opposed to DRM. And if you re-read mine, you'd find plenty of evidence that I want artists, programmers, etc. to get paid for the work they do, in a way that's compatible with my rights and everyone else's. But if you're going to ignore all that and claim I really believe the opposite, you shouldn't be surprised when the same thing happens to you.

      I can't honestly say I wish you well -- I really hope you do get caught. Well then, I guess I'll hope you get killed in an accidental fall. Luckily for both of us, the odds are pretty slim.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    270. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Suppose I wanted to run a landscaping business where instead of asking people up front if they wanted their lawns mowed, I'd just go down the street, mowing every lawn, and then bill people for it later. I'd have a hard time getting money out of the people who didn't want to pay me, right? That would be a pretty stupid model for me to try to use, if I had to enforce it myself. But suppose the government offered to help me collect that money, say, by sending the sheriff to everyone's house if they wouldn't pay me. That would be a subsidy."

      you can take them to court for the money, and if you win, they are forced to give you the money back..by law.

      "Sure there is; they're fine examples even if you'd like to pretend they don't exist. If I use a bunch of electricity during the month of June, I'll get billed for it at the end of June. If I refuse to pay that bill, I will have gotten all that electricity for free."

      are you really this stupid? If you refuse to pay your bill, your electricity will get cut off and you may even get bill collectors after you and eventually be forced to pay the money back (same with cable, internet, and all of your other examples).

      With your model, the person can't just get cut off. They will get it for free and can use it forever. They will also know about this before-hand. I'm waiting for you to give me a true example of this.

      "There are plenty more, too: anything that you pay for after it's provided is something you could, theoretically, skip out on paying. A restaurant, for example: you could order a meal, eat it, and then sneak out without paying the check. And yet, most people don't do that; restaurants manage not to go out of business because of dine 'n dash. Now imagine how much less of a problem that would be if you had to identify yourself when you walked in, like you would when you agreed to pay for software development."

      Now a better example would be if the food was sitting out there with nobody watching with a little sign that says "please pay". How many people do you think would actually pay?

      "As a professional programmer, and a hobbyist programmer (both open and closed source), I can assure you I've created plenty of stuff worth copyrighting. Your ad hominem attack isn't just immature; it's incorrect."

      I was getting you the benefit of the doubt. Now I know you are just inexperienced or stupid.

      "Oh, and the artists/developers who can't make what they want to make, because it's too close to some other work or includes parts of it, or because they'd need some $10,000 tool."

      Maybe they will think of something a little more creative than copying someone else's work.

      "And the customers who aren't allowed to share the things they've paid for, or back them up, or enjoy them in the ways they'd prefer (watching a DVD without commercials, or exhibiting it for a large audience)."

      1) you are allowed to legally backup anything you want
      2) sharing? too bad. Tell your friends to buy it if you get value out of it
      3) how large is a large audience? If you want to show a movie, for free, to 100 of your friends..I don't think it will be a problem. If you want to pass it out to them or charge for money, then you have a problem.

      "And the third parties (web hosts, OS developers, electronics manufacturers, etc.) who are unwillingly dragged into enforcing copyright law."

      protect and be protected.

      "And the customers of those third parties who face restrictions because of copyright concerns (not being able to record certain TV shows with your DVR, not being able to back up certain DVDs, not being able to share excerpts on YouTube, not being able to stream your music collection from your home to your office, not being able to attach a debugger to certain processes, not being able to watch movies in full resolution on certain monitors, etc.)."

      You can do most of these, legally. You just need to buy a copy of the content first (such as with streaming content or backing up dvds).

      and how many excerpts do you want to share? Fair use laws allows you to share 5-10 seconds of a song and videos/written work allow a certain amount too.

    271. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      you can take them to court for the money, and if you win, they are forced to give you the money back..by law.

      Not if I just went up to their house and started mowing the lawn, without asking them if they wanted me to do it or telling them how much it would cost. That particular business model doesn't work at all, because the government doesn't step in and force people to play along with it (like they do with the copyright-based business model).

      If you refuse to pay your bill, your electricity will get cut off and you may even get bill collectors after you and eventually be forced to pay the money back (same with cable, internet, and all of your other examples).

      Yes, and if I refuse to pay for any other service that I had promised to pay, I'll also get bill collectors after me and eventually be forced to pay the money back. That's what happens when you break your contracts.

      The fact that my service will be shut off is somewhat of a disincentive, but if I'm moving anyway, I don't care. Should I just skip paying the last month's phone bill, electric bill, and so on whenever I move, because I don't need the service anymore? No, of course not. I agreed to pay for that last month of usage. There's no loophole; they know who I am, and I'll probably have to pay it eventually no matter what.

      With your model, the person can't just get cut off. They will get it for free and can use it forever.

      And if I refuse to pay the guy who painted my house, I'll get to use that paint forever for free. Until he takes me to court for theft of service, that is.

      I'm waiting for you to give me a true example of this.

      I'm waiting for you to stop ignoring the ones I'm giving you! You've ignored the house painter twice already. Will you address it this time, or ignore it once again?

      Now a better example would be if the food was sitting out there with nobody watching with a little sign that says "please pay". How many people do you think would actually pay?

      No, that's not "better"; it's actually nothing like what I've been proposing.

      You're talking about making food before any customers have arrived, then making it available before anyone has paid (or agreed to pay), and asking people to please pay you later if they take some.

      I'm talking about finding the customers first and getting them to agree to pay -- so you know who they are and exactly how much money you can expect to get from them -- and then making the food (or software, or music, etc.). That way, by the time anyone can take a bite, you either have the money already or know where to find it.

      See the difference?

      Maybe they will think of something a little more creative than copying someone else's work.

      Yeah, who cares about all those mash-ups, remixes, samples, fan fiction, parodies, extended universes... none of the stuff these young people enjoy counts as art anyway. After Frank Sinatra and Herman Melville, it's all downhill, right?

      3) how large is a large audience? If you want to show a movie, for free, to 100 of your friends..I don't think it will be a problem. If you want to pass it out to them or charge for money, then you have a problem.

      First, you're wrong, it will be a problem. People have gotten sued for playing the radio in their stores, so you can forget about playing a movie for an audience of hundreds.

      Second, if I've paid for the DVD, what business is it of anyone else's to tell me whether or not I can charge people to watch it? It's my screen, my seats, my air conditioning, and my disc. I'm not even giving out copies, just letting people come onto my property and watch my screen.

      As far as copyright law is concerned, there's no difference between publicly exhibiting a movie for free or for profit. They both need the copyright holder's permission. Getting paid isn't enough for them; they demand to tell me how I can u

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    272. Re:I have no issues with copy protection if... by rtechie · · Score: 1

      Do. Not. Buy. You hurt them the same amount, and you have not stolen. Do. Not. Fricking. Buy. I disagree. Clearly encouraging others to steal rather than buy (assuming those people were going to buy before) hurts the label's bottom line more because they lose a sale.

      If you pirate a song, you're ripping off the label to the tune of 90%, and the artist to the tune of 10%. No. You. Are. Not. For most artists, you're ripping off the artist to the tune of 0.01%. Maybe $0.10 per album and $0.01 per track. Many artists don't see one red cent.

      You still have no right to do either. "Rights" have nothing to do with it. I'm talking about MORALITY here. Robin Hood didn't have the "right" to rob people in Sherwood Forest.

      You don't get to enjoy the song, but nobody said the principled approach would be easy. Stealing IS the principled approach. It's doing SOMETHING rather than standing by passively and watching innocent people (filesharers, kids) get robbed. It's fricking Robin Hood. Steal from the rich (labels) and give to the poor (everyone else).

  2. The ultimate copy protection: by nurb432 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Quality product at a reasonable price.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  3. The real problem by willyhill · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The submission touches on the real problem, that this epic battle between companies and the freeriders eventually ends up affecting normal people more than really preventing copying. I have friends who are avid gamers but actually end up pirating the games they buy because it's too difficult to deal with the copy protection crap.

    On the other hand I think this will eventually reach a breaking point and these normal people (who are the paying customers) will stop putting up with said crap. That will be an interesting development for sure.

    --
    The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
    1. Re:The real problem by djsmiley · · Score: 1

      surely by pirating they ARE stopping in putting up with the crap?

      Problem is instead of companys activly seaking to please the customer, they give us the option of put up or shut up.

      --
      - http://www.milkme.co.uk
    2. Re:The real problem by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some have stopped putting up with it, but the resultant decline in sales is attributed to piracy, rather than a fed up customer.

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    3. Re:The real problem by Petrushka · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have friends who are avid gamers but actually end up pirating the games they buy because it's too difficult to deal with the copy protection crap.

      I'm sure there's nothing unusual about that. The very first thing I do when I buy a game, even before installing -- and preferably before buying, too -- is to stop off at gamecopyworld and/or gameburnworld to make sure that there's a crack that I can apply to my legitimate (and patched) copy. It's a trend that will only continue.

      I've already had experiences of electronics shops pointing to me to instructions on how to "crack" a DVD player to make it multi-region, how to unlock phones, and so on. I'm sure it won't be too long before we see game shops doing similar things; games will catch up eventually.

      On the other hand I think this will eventually reach a breaking point and these normal people (who are the paying customers) will stop putting up with said crap.

      That I doubt, unfortunately. As the article shows, people have been putting up with copy-prevention schemes since the advent of commercial computer software (in fact the article doesn't start nearly early enough). Some of those schemes have been much more burdensome than present-day ones -- though they're getting worse again, with "activate every time you start the game"-type schemes.

    4. Re:The real problem by imneverwrong · · Score: 1

      Exactly, because it only takes one person to figure out how to bypass the protection - everyone else who doesn't know how, still knows to look on The Pirate Bay for the cracked content. The person who loses is the normal consumer who has to put up with 3 minutes of splash screen, "Insert Disc 1", and who can't play the game if he loses one of the CDs/DVDs it came on

    5. Re:The real problem by BZWingZero · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Technically, it is due to piracy. Because of all the anti-piracy measures, people aren't buying. Those anti-piracy measures were put in place to counter piracy. Therefore, indirectly, it is due to piracy.

    6. Re:The real problem by willyhill · · Score: 1
      surely by pirating they ARE stopping in putting up with the crap?

      Unfortunately by then they already doled out their hard-earned money in exchange for being treated as criminals, basically. A full stop would be to not buy the content to begin with.

      --
      The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
    7. Re:The real problem by Kneo24 · · Score: 1
      The worst part about that is that they cite these huge numbers of pirated copies being used at any given time. I guess they divine that information from their crystal ball? They sure as hell never give sources on how they find these numbers.

    8. Re:The real problem by packeteer · · Score: 1

      I have friends who are avid gamers but actually end up pirating the games they buy because it's too difficult to deal with the copy protection crap.

      FYI there is a differance between playing a game you didn't pay for and cracking the copy protection on a game you did pay for. Both are technically illegal but 1 is far more moral than the other in most people's eyes.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    9. Re:The real problem by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's not just games, software is affected too. I know people who have legit copies of Windows, but use pirate Corporate editions because they don't need activating.

      Same with many expensive bits of software - the pirate version doesn't need a dongle or online activation, plus it will run on their work desktop, home desktop and laptop from one licence. You see, normal people think that when they buy software they own it and can install it on all their machines, not just one at a time. After all, it belongs to them, not the machine.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:The real problem by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      I've already had experiences of electronics shops pointing to me to instructions on how to "crack" a DVD player to make it multi-region, how to unlock phones, and so on. I'm sure it won't be too long before we see game shops doing similar things; games will catch up eventually.
       
      I purchased a copy of a Region 2 DVD a while back (Tante Danielle, in fact) and it actually came with a page of instructions in the shipping box that directed me to a website with instructions to alter the region of many (most?) DVD players so you could play the disk. Fortunately, my RCA DVD player was on the list and I switched it to region 0 with no problem.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    11. Re:The real problem by sowth · · Score: 1

      There was a time in the '90s where copy protection more or less disappeared. I had to come to the point where nearly every software review had a complaint about the copy protection, and nearly everyone who bought software refused to buy anything which had copy protection, but it happened.

      Now there is a new generation of computer users and computer programmers/ vendors. Let's just hope they are smart enough to drop the copy protection crap, which only causes problems for legitimate users and just gives script kiddies more street creds for cracking the "latest and greatest" schemes.

    12. Re:The real problem by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      How much of the decline in sales is attributable to the people switching to Macs and to Linux, which can't run the Windows-only games?

      How much is from people who are fed up with all that copy protection crap on Windows games (i.e. Valve) and are simply switching their gaming to consoles instead?

    13. Re:The real problem by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 1

      The decline is greater than it's ever been in spite of the wringing of hands and crying out from the content holders. And we can directly attribute this to many things, not the least of which is growing tired of being treated like a criminal. The cost of gas, food, and housing eating away at luxury items, these "essential" things like music and DVDs are losing sales. This loss of sales being blamed on piracy is the tragedy. Yes, indirectly, anti-piracy measures have done the opposite of what they were intended, but it's getting the content holders to _see_ that, rather than raise the specter of piracy again and again (getting more of our freedoms slashed in the name of "protecting" copyright) is the frustrating part.

      And we're still preaching to the choir here, of course. But I've said it many times before... getting our voice heard over the stacks of money in Congresscritters' offices is becoming more and more difficult. ...soon it may become impossible.

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    14. Re:The real problem by mgiuca · · Score: 1

      The solution to this is to write a letter every time you would have bought a game but didn't due to copy protection.

  4. Dongle Almighty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    With USB, computers today have more free ports than ever before and even my mom could add a hub.

    Perhaps the time is ripe for the return of the Dongle.

    1. Re:Dongle Almighty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dongles are no more difficult to crack then any copy protection scheme that adds checks through out the code of the game.

    2. Re:Dongle Almighty! by profplump · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But with USB there's absolutely no way I can tell the difference between a dongle, and a bit of software that attaches to the USB chain. Or a single uber-dongle that emulates an number of other dongles after cloning from the original/loading a saved config. With parallel/ADB/serial dongles it was at least moderately hard, but with USB it's trivial.

      At the very least the USB dongle would have to do something sort of calculations to provide authentication using a cryptographic authentication system. Certainly you could build dongles with appropriate computing power, they quickly become expensive. And you still have to deal with the possibility of simply cracking the game to bypass the check and skip to the "yep, authenticated" portion -- the USB device would have to provide some bit of data that was necessary to execute the machine code but different from use-to-use, which is a non-trivial problem all on its own.

      Not to mention that no one would just use the USB block device driver -- they would all require that you install slightly different, conflicting drivers to read their USB dongles.

    3. Re:Dongle Almighty! by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      Well, it might be harder to make a cryptographically solid dongle, at it might not be of interest for the average game with a 6 months lifetime before it comes out in the supermarket $5 bargain bin. But for your $50 million developed super game or your $5000 per copy CAD program I'm surprised that the dongle has gone the way of the dodo. Plus the dongle would be a good compromise between first sales doctrine and preventing the proliferation of copies.
      The other thing that I'm surprised that manufacturers haven't come up with is individual serial numbers on CDs, to go with an external key. It can't be too hard to add a small writable sector to a CD/DVD blank that I can individualize. No fitting key for the CD - no install. Sure you can crack that, but now you need to distribute files with their individual keys.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    4. Re:Dongle Almighty! by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      It can't be too hard to add a small writable sector to a CD/DVD blank that I can individualize.
      The problem is: How do you do this? Regular CDs/DVDs are pressed - the gold master is created and used as a template for all further discs. In order to accomodate disc-specific content you'd need to create a new template for every disc which is orders of magnitude more expensive.

      The CD-R(W)/DVD-R(W) approach also doesn't work because user-writable discs are based on completely different materials than pressed ones, making mixed-mode discs very difficult (and expensive) to produce. Of course one could press the disc and then use a really powerful laser to burn holes into the reflective layer but that might not produce desirable results at all - and, again, it would be much more expensive than just pressing the disc.
      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    5. Re:Dongle Almighty! by langelgjm · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that no one would just use the USB block device driver -- they would all require that you install slightly different, conflicting drivers to read their USB dongles.

      You act like this is hypothetical. It's not.

      We have two of those dongles for our CAD software packages, in addition to multiple authorization codes, the first set of which only lasts for 30 days (when we upgraded from parallel to USB dongles, they wanted to make sure we returned the old ones).

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
  5. Captain Goodnight and the Islands of Fear by syousef · · Score: 3, Funny

    Aw man, you mean that secret decoder was just a copy protection scheme? And I wasn't really saving the world? That's it! I was in support of RIAA/MPAA/BSA before but now they've just wrecked my childhood fantasy! I'm going to go poke an eye out and buy a parrot!

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Captain Goodnight and the Islands of Fear by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget to cut off one of your leg too!

    2. Re:Captain Goodnight and the Islands of Fear by HAKdragon · · Score: 1

      At least your decoder didn't say "Buy more Ovaltine"

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
  6. Ultima - color book by bigattichouse · · Score: 3, Funny

    I remember the Ultima book back when a laser copy was expensive. The colors were pastels, which wouldn't copy on the copy machines of the day, so to pirate the game, you had to spend about as much in color copies as buying the darn thing. Course, I had a friend whose dad's office had a copier... ahh. smell the piracy.

    --
    meh
    1. Re:Ultima - color book by v1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The trick there was bleach. Bleach would strip the color off the paper but not the ink. So it would turn a print that was for example, grey ink on dark red paper (which would B&W copy to a sheet of black paper) into a tannish/reddish/white sheet of paper, and black lettering, easily photocopied.

      Anyone remember MordorCharge?

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    2. Re:Ultima - color book by theaceoffire · · Score: 1
      --
      I steal signatures. This one used to be yours.
    3. Re:Ultima - color book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um....doesn't this trick qualify as a circumvention method, the kind the DMCA frowns upon. Like the trick where you make a felt tip pen mark before the first sectors of a copy-protected cd to thwart the copy protection....
      um....
      Oops.

    4. Re:Ultima - color book by v1 · · Score: 1

      the funny thing there was, the booklet they provided was such a deep dark red and the letters were small and fine and a medium grey, you'd about go blind trying to read them.

      The photocopies were much easier to read.

      Downside was the bleach kinda trashed the booklet, making it very brittle and it started to fall apart. So it was quickly thrown away.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    5. Re:Ultima - color book by JohhnyTHM · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I remember those colour charts well and hated them.

      I am slightly colour blind, so if there was no one else in the house to tell me what the colours were I couldn't start the game.

    6. Re:Ultima - color book by mnbjhguyt · · Score: 1

      zak mccraken had such a copy protection.
      it was the first time I realized there was some thing as 'original' (had never seen one) and copied games. if you failed to give the correct codes at the airports a guard would put you in jail and give you a lecture about how hard programmers had worked for that game, and that he hoped that you just made a mistake while typing the code.

      i met someone who had the original box. the codes were printed in black on dark red.
      I found a place that made color copies (in 1990!) which probably cost me more than the game itself.

      years later I found out that turning contrast very high on a copier would make a farly readable copy anyway.

  7. What's amusing by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Amusing is sending those of us who actually RTFA to the LAST page of a 4 page article. This article is the straight man in a comedy duo, only without the funny man. That's sort of amusing in an ironic way.

    Just think, without copy protection, we wouldn't have been able to distribute our viruses so easily. With all these kids trying to download cracks from any site that offered them, our bits have gone far and wide.

    Thanks copy protection!

    1. Re:What's amusing by racas · · Score: 1

      I knew I couldn't have been the only one to notice! Error looks to be submitter's. This is the first page.

    2. Re:What's amusing by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "Amusing is sending those of us who actually RTFA to the LAST page of a 4 page article."
      Oh great, now you went and broke the www.next-gen.biz copy protection scheme!
      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    3. Re:What's amusing by andreyvul · · Score: 1

      Without copy protection, we wouldn't have been able to distribute our viruses so easily. Oh really? Please explain internet pornography. Celebrity sex tape and free porn spam is always a link to a virus, yet a lot of idiots click on it, get their computers infected, and don't realize that they fucked something up.
      --
      proud caffeine whore
    4. Re:What's amusing by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I know it's hard to believe, but there was a time when we actually used floppy diskettes to copy files from one computer to another. It's difficult to imagine what life must have been like before Google and Twitter, but we managed in our own small way.

  8. I still hate copy protection schemes by jandrese · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Oh man, I remember moving up from the Commodore 64 to the Mac LC. Because 90% of the C64 software we had was "Load 'n Go" stuff for $1 (literally!) there wasn't much worry about copy protection. I can't remember a single thing we had on that system that had copy protection. The Mac however did have some surprises. We actually sent our first copy of SimCity back to Maxis because we didn't realize that the Red Card with the weird symbols was important and that strange dialog box (I was like 10 at the time, gimme a break) at the start was also important. I thought it was broken because every time you started the game it would throw disasters at your city constantly. The tech support guys were apparently trained to treat anybody asking about the copy protection like a theif, and never bothered to tell us what we had to do either (hence the useless return). Luckily, I figured it out with the second copy (unpacking the box myself instead of letting my brother do it and finding the red card made a big difference).

    Later on I played Chris Crawford's (I think that was his name) Patton Strikes Back. This one was interesting it that it let you run about halfway through the game, and then stopped and asked "are your papers in order"? It then directed you to a specific page in the manual and had you type in a specific word (third word on the second paragraph for instance). There was a slight problem though, the manual had apparently been revised a bit after the copy protection was put in place, so about 5-10% of the time, your game would be destroyed halfway through because it failed the copy check. That was after we got AOL and it was my first foray into piracy, as getting halfway through a tough game and then losing because the copy protection was buggy was a real outrage. This was the days before games released patches, so as far as I know unless you crack the thing there's always a chance of losing the war because of the copy protection.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
    1. Re:I still hate copy protection schemes by bjourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I had the same problem with Pirates! on the Amiga. I think inputting names to pirate photos was the copy protection scheme that occured at the start of the game. If you failed to enter the correct names, the game would be ultra-hard with lots of English frigates and Spaniards hunting you while your crew would mutiny. I never figured it out but managed to do quite well at the game never the less.

      My favorite copy protection scheme was Simon the Sorcerers. It had a set of sprites, hats, cats, brooms and so on and you had to click on a matching direction on a compass. You only had eight different directions to choose from, north, south, east, west, north west, north east, south west and south east so it was brute force breakable since you only needed three correct answers in a row. I remember writing down big tables on my attempts with guessing the sprites so that I could find the correct solution for each one. I think I enjoyed "hacking" the copy protection more than actually playing the game.

    2. Re:I still hate copy protection schemes by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      Heh. Chris Crawford is sorta famous ;)
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Crawford_(game_designer)

      I had a few of those games with little cards to make other cards readable, and the code wheel for Rocket Ranger. I was disappointed it was the version with no nazis, so I looked for a pirated version instead. No code wheel anymore, either!

      The most recent purchase with a horrid, old-fashioned scheme like that was Uplink. It had a black sheet with the codes on it, and a transparent red thing to decode. Off to the Internet for a fix!
      I also ended up with Stardock's version before they went to the token system, and it included a textfile with the codes.

      I've been enjoying places like GameCopyWorld for a long time. I typically check for a nocd/nodvd patch there when a new game is out, check what the buzz is on its stability, then decide whether to buy the game. If it's available through Stardock, there is no protection, and if through Steam, it's tolerable because I have it available as long as I have 'net.

      I think the best way to get rid of piracy is to only sell accounts for online games, and not make a key system which can be hacked. Isn't that what they did to CoD4 on the PC? Keys were as usual easily generated, and they had no central repository denying illegal keys. An MMO-like system with a one-time key at minimum, or simply an account you log into every time you want to play online would cut down on piracy.

      The best copy protection is none, with special goodies for those who pay for their software. Maya and/or 3D Studio has an integrated shop and texture/material browser with lots to download. Games can have free maps now and then, only downloadable through your account at first.

    3. Re:I still hate copy protection schemes by jandrese · · Score: 1

      The thing about free goodies is that they're often pretty danged easy to copy these days. Maps can be scanned in and posted as a highish rez JPEG file. Manuals can be OCRed, although nobody bothers anymore since you can get all of that information (and more) off of GameFAQs. Most printed manuals are really halfassed anyway, and it's not unusual for the manual to just be a PDF on the disc anymore.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    4. Re:I still hate copy protection schemes by ymgve · · Score: 1

      I don't know when you switched, but during the C64's golden years (1985-1990) there were tons of copy protections in use. Normal users just didn't notice. Here's a bit more info: http://c64preservation.com/protection.html

    5. Re:I still hate copy protection schemes by jambarama · · Score: 1

      Ah Patton Strikes Back. I never did beat that game unless it was on easy or I was the Americans (air strikes rock for cutting German supply lines). The historical information that popped up periodically was always fascinating to me as a kid. I think I spent more time in the glossary than I did in the game.

      Forgot about the manual check, but sure enough that was copy protection.

  9. Copy Restriction by Virtex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We should call it what it is - copy restricton. It doesn't protect your copy nor your ability to copy. I could understand if it were called copyright protection, but that's just not the case.

    --
    For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
    1. Re:Copy Restriction by raylu · · Score: 1

      It protects them from having their software copied.

      --
      Maurice Wilkes, debugging, 1949
    2. Re:Copy Restriction by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

      Sure it does. It protects the copyright holder's exclusive right to copy. It's worded for the party it benefits. It protects the software from being copied.

      In theory, it also would not interfere with any user's limited right to copy (into memory in order to use it, for byte-complete backups). In practice, it doesn't always work that way--but it's not required to. They can't punish you for certain types of copying as expressly excepted, but they don't have to facilitate your copying in this manner.

      The bottom line is that getting rid of copyblockers requires abating the fears of the producer. If they continue to have strong reason to suspect abuse and flagrant disregard, the customer is the enemy. You can't blame the problem on either side; it rests with both.

    3. Re:Copy Restriction by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      It isn't just a fear, it is absolute proof. Check into the warez world with 1000s of servers all over the world with every application you can imagine ready for anyone to download.

      Basically, an Internet connection gives you a ticket to a utterly free world with so much stuff available that you need never think about paying for any digital goods ever again. Unless you download some corrupted application that adds your machine to a botnet.

      I know people that will never, ever pay for music. When broadband speeds get higher, they will never ever pay for a movie. Software? If they want it, they download it. It is all there for the taking.

  10. New form of RIAA by ChrisDavi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Funny how any form of digital media goes from retail to electronic, only to be more protected, then only to be broken. It will only be a losing battle between publishers, users, & crackers. If you can see or use any product, someone can break the protection. The only sure way of non payers using a piece of software, don't release it (or create it for that matter)

    1. Re:New form of RIAA by Standard+User+79 · · Score: 1

      It's not an absolute issue for publishers. Successful copy protection mitigates theft, doesn't try to prevent it. Last I checked the game industry is doing quite well with their schemes.

  11. DONT - DONT... by Wiseblood1 · · Score: 4, Funny
    --
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking
    1. Re:DONT - DONT... by lastchance_000 · · Score: 1

      Don't Copy that PAPER TAPE!

  12. Execution Restriction by corsec67 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Many of these schemes can't prevent copying data, like CSS, online authentication or dongles, so they try to prevent execution.

    Even when used legitimately, a computer is going to make at least one copy of the program/data, first into main memory, then into the various levels of caches.

    --
    If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
  13. Respectfully disagree by Weaselmancer · · Score: 2, Informative

    A couple of problems with that.

    First off, it's no big deal to snoop USB, which makes dongles pretty easy to crack.

    You have to petition the USB folks so you get a unique vendor's ID, which is a pain. Plus, they are finite.

    You'd have to get Microsoft to give you a digital certificate to make your dongle driver legit - also a pain. And you'd have to go through a driver installation just to load your software, more of a pain.

    Finally, dongle bound software is just as crackable with a monitor. There has to be some code that goes out and checks the dongle, then returns "yes this is authorized" or "no let's not run". Just zap that bit and the dongle goes away.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:Respectfully disagree by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      There has to be some code that goes out and checks the dongle, then returns "yes this is authorized" or "no let's not run". Just zap that bit and the dongle goes away. Well, in theory, you could have a dongle which returns an encryption key, or which does the decryption itself.

      Not saying it's uncrackable, just not as trivial as software, especially when the key is physically on the dongle and cannot be retrieved.

      For that matter, if the key never leaves the dongle, and it's reasonably tamper-proof, all patches would still have to be cracked by someone who has the dongle.
      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    2. Re:Respectfully disagree by tepples · · Score: 1

      Finally, dongle bound software is just as crackable with a monitor. There has to be some code that goes out and checks the dongle, then returns "yes this is authorized" or "no let's not run". Unless a lot of the software's logic runs on a 32-bit microcontroller inside the dongle.
    3. Re:Respectfully disagree by The+Snowman · · Score: 1

      There has to be some code that goes out and checks the dongle, then returns "yes this is authorized" or "no let's not run". Just zap that bit and the dongle goes away.

      No, there does not. What if there was a simple piece of software running on the dongle that talked with the client software on the computer, and they used cryptography to communicate. It could even use public key encryption, with a server certificate signed and stored on the computer... sort of like connecting to a web server with SSL. Sure, you could snoop on the communication or even decompile the program. However, the complexity could be prohibitive. Finally, just because at some level there is a boolean value saying "authorized" or "not authorized" does not mean you can simply flip a bit. If the output from the dongle were mixed with other outputs from the software itself, the value could drive algorithms in the software to break or not to break.

      For example, what if you were working on a complex CAD diagram and the software needed a dongle. The software talked to the dongle, which performed a small part of the calculation on the dongle itself (something that would likely not need to be patched in software, say, the square root or cosine algorithms). The communication was secured with public key encryption, and the output was fed back into more calculations. Spoofing the dongle might actually make the software "work" but it might not work correctly. If this is enough to cause people to spend the money for the real software and the real dongles, then the software vendor succeeded at its goal.

      Breaking copy protection does not need to be impossible, only difficult enough to discourage an alpha value worth of customers.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
    4. Re:Respectfully disagree by bit01 · · Score: 1

      Breaking copy protection does not need to be impossible, only difficult enough to discourage an alpha value worth of customers.

      No, difficult enough to discourage the single [non-]customer who has the means and the will to break and distribute it while not discouraging the large number of potential customers. With 6,673,182,752+ people in the world that's not good odds. Most vendors seem to get away with it at all only by flat-out lying to their potential customers e.g. "WGA"; to call it an "advantage" is an outright lie and the only reason they can get away with is because of economic network effects.

      ---

      DRM'ed content breaks the copyright bargain, the first sale doctrine and fair use provisions. It should not be possible to copyright DRM'ed content.

    5. Re:Respectfully disagree by sophanes · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I seem to remember Autocad doing something like this. They used the dongle to decrypt a look-up table used in geometric transforms. If the LUT wasn't decrypted, subtle and cumulative errors would be introduced into the design which would only become noticeable after a week or two of use.

      If used correctly, dongles are pretty damn hard to defeat. Ideally you use them to decrypt hunks of both your data and executable, then hide the significant decryption data amongst a blizzard of dummy calls to the dongle.

  14. Anyone remember PS1/PS2 CP? by djsmiley · · Score: 1

    It was featured in a mag i saw and basicly said that it would "notice" if it was a copied disk....

    You could play the game for awhile then "strange" things would start to happen. The example they gave was a pool game where the gravity would get lower and lower so slowly the balls would just float off the table....

    did anyone see this actually come to light? Did i just imagine it?

    --
    - http://www.milkme.co.uk
    1. Re:Anyone remember PS1/PS2 CP? by Panaflex · · Score: 1

      My copy of Lego Starwars does this when the disk is dirty... perhaps it is on purpose... or perhaps the data is just corrupted.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    2. Re:Anyone remember PS1/PS2 CP? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Operation Flashpoint had a system like this, where if it decided it was a pirate copy the game would slowly fade to black.

      I don't think they ever made a version for a games console though because no-one could ever figure out a reliable way of detecting mod chips (or just CDRs on the Dreamcast).

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Anyone remember PS1/PS2 CP? by mpeskett · · Score: 1

      I remember hearing that in one of the Settlers games, if your copy was pirated (and it managed to detect this) your weapon-smith would produce pigs instead of weapons, hence making it impossible to win the game.

    4. Re:Anyone remember PS1/PS2 CP? by zarthrag · · Score: 1
      http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3030/keeping_the_pirates_at_bay.php/

      Spiro: Year of the dragon employed exactly this. But it was to stop piracy for a few weeks in order for sales to peak. The right idea is to not affect paying customers by delaying the availability of a pirate release - Not to stomp it out completely.

      --
      Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
  15. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It wasn't very effective as copy protection, but the game had an awesome add-in as it immersed you into the world of arcaheology and adventure:

    Henry Jones' Grail Diary.

    It was in a nice leather-like enclosure, and the paper had a parchment texture. There were lots of pictures with clips and notes addeds, all written by hand.

    The copy protection part was a series of descriptions of the Grail according to various authors - which were referenced by Indy as he investigated various items.

    BTW, in the LucasArts' adventure games, a trimmed down copy of the grail diary was included only for the copy protection. But it wasn't as good as the original.

    As an Indy fan, I would buy the original Last Crusade game again *JUST* for the Grail Diary.

    1. Re:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by Bieeanda · · Score: 5, Interesting
      That reminds me of my favourite bit of copy protection. It was so elegant, I didn't even realize that it was more than just a bit of box fluff. Ultima 5 came with a whack of little things-- a symbol of infinity, a cloth map, a nice in-character manual describing creatures and spells and whatnot... and a narrow scroll that described the voyage of Lord British into the newly discovered Underworld, and his subsequent kidnapping by the Shadowlords.

      Imagine my surprise when I stumbled across the entrance to the Underworld that they used, and found myself able to trace LB's path all the way to the great chamber where his fallen companions still lay. Without that miniature walkthrough, and one page in the manual, with one line of musical notation, written as apparently nothing more than a window on Britannian culture, I'd have never been able to finish the game.

      Unfortunately the later games abandoned that completely. The documentation checks were all at the beginning of the game, and all referred to the bestiary, or lines of latitude and longitude on one of the included maps. What had once been pleasantly immersive (and a dirty, dirty trick on a cheap pirate) turned into a challenge and response to prove that you were the heroic Avatar. Kind of says something about the shift in the relationship between player and developer.

    2. Re:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by nuzak · · Score: 1

      The underworld path is almost completely linear, so it wasn't hard to get to LB without the journal. I never consulted it once when I played. Stones is of course the main theme of the game (but only played on the C128, the C64 didn't have the RAM for any music), and I'm pretty sure it's given to you in-game somewhere.

      It's probably no coincidence that the more hostile forms of checks came after EA's acquisition of Origin.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    3. Re:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rocket Ranger for the C64 required you to enter the precise fuel requirements as matched up from a code wheel for the correct source and destination locations you wanted to fly too. An incorrect number resulted in you flying to a random location, or worse, wasting 6 weeks of game time in "Rocket Training". If you didn't have the decoder wheel (or a lookup table for it), you really couldn't play the game.

    4. Re:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by sbeacom · · Score: 1

      I happened to buy the LucasArts Adventure game of the Last Crusdade. First Game I ever bought for a computer back in 1993.

      The trimmed down diary was there but I thought it was still awsome as a kid. For the life of me I never remember having to do any kind of copy protection question in the game.

      I do remember Kings Quest V having you refer to the manual for some crazy symbols that represented letters that were on each page of the manual.

    5. Re:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by Bieeanda · · Score: 1
      Still, finding that particular entrance without aid was highly unlikely-- you had to be playing silly buggers to fall down that one specific waterfall in the middle of nowhere, in order to find your way in. That's how I did it the first time, and boy was that a surprise.

      The specific tune for solving the harpsichord puzzle wasn't actually in the game, or at least not in the Apple II version-- the tune in the manual didn't match up with the tune in the game. There was one NPC who would give you the first three notes, and tell you to figure the next three out using the manual, and would go into one of those 'but thou must! Wilt thou? Y/N' style endless loops until you rebooted or figured out what he wanted. Then he'd give you the dozen-odd keystrokes you needed to play in LB's bedroom.

    6. Re:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Then he'd give you the dozen-odd keystrokes you needed to play in LB's bedroom.

      789 987 876 765 3

      Yup, I still remember them, 20 years after Ultima V came out.

    7. Re:Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade by mnbjhguyt · · Score: 1

      The copy protection part was a series of descriptions of the Grail according to various authors - which were referenced by Indy as he investigated various items. I think you have this wrong. or, at least, the pc version had a lookup table with greek symbols.
      I know because I didn't have the original, but among my friends we had fotocopies of this codes which were hand-copied by some crazy guy.

      this screenshots gallery seems to support my memory.
  16. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about:

    "Permission to use, modify and redistribute this program is hereby granted."

    I'd like to see them violate THAT copyright license.

  17. Ahhh, holes burned in disks by JohnnyGTO · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Vault Corp. what a product. Actually it was ingenious, even if your 5 1/4 disk wore out the little mark would register with the copy protection software. All you needed to do was swap out the back up disks with the original. I hear at Comdex a certain individual told a certain hacker what he would unleash with the next update a worm on anyone that broke the protection scheme. Company was closed about 6 months later.

    --
    Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
    1. Re:Ahhh, holes burned in disks by Deadstick · · Score: 4, Informative

      That was the ProLok disk. It had a spot on it that had been heated with a laser, enough to fuse some of the oxide. The result was a small amount of disk space that could be read but not altered. The copy-check consisted of writing all zeroes to that area; verifying all zeroes; writing all ones; and verifying all ones. A disk with the laser spot would always produce at least one compare error.

      The routine was hidden inside a really lame obfuscation scheme. It would read a section of encrypted code from the disk, XOR it byte by byte with a byte selected from a table, and store it in RAM. Then it would select another byte from the table and do the XOR again. And again, thirty or forty times. Each cycle would begin by altering the single-step and breakpoint interrupt vectors to point to an exit instruction.

      If you went to the trouble of tracing your way down through all that, you were rewarded with a delicious irony: the ProLok disk was, itself, a copyright infringement. In order to do the write/read checks they had to insert hooks into the BIOS -- but that was not so easy in the small-RAM days when the BIOS executed directly from ROM instead of being shadowed out into RAM. Vault had to make its own BIOS, and did it by (drum roll) copying IBM's (rimshot). And they made an absurdly lame attempt to cover it up: they took some 800 bytes of the IBM Fixed Disk BIOS, added their hooks, then went through it and interchanged logical-shift-left and arithmetic-shift-left instructions wherever the MSB and carry were guaranteed to be zero (meaning both instructions did the same thing). So, disassemblies of the two BIOSes would look a LITTLE different...

      Oh, the crack? A two-byte change on the disk, probably a back door they forgot to remove. Compuserve was the central clearinghouse for cracks in those days, and picked it up within a week.

      AFAIK Vault's only client was Ashton-Tate, who used it on dBase III. The president of Vault was a guy with a law-enforcement background and a SWAT team mentality who fancied himself a mighty crime fighter, and when he was embarrassed by the quick crack, he boasted they were developing ProLok Plus, which would punish crackers by physically damaging the machine. Business customers were enraged, Ashton-Tate dumped Vault (which was expensive because they owned a one-third interest in it), and Vault was no more.

      rj

    2. Re:Ahhh, holes burned in disks by JohnnyGTO · · Score: 1

      Ya I was acquainted with one of the main programmers way back when. Got to see the production of some of the first product, they created a rig that sand blasted and vacuumed at the same time. They may have moved up to a laser later on but I didn't get a chance to see it. Then they had thousand of dollars worth of high tech computer gear, 20 or so IBM XT's which were hand fed these disks so they could great the ProLock disks. I believe it was actually the programmer that was over heard and quoted at Comdex regarding the worm. This place was a hoot, I can remember all these nerds in production drooling over this one chick cause she liked to show you her tattoo, all you had to do was ask, it was in a personal spot.

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
  18. Article sucks, but I remember two ... by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 5, Informative

    An extremely useless article even by slashdot standards, but I remember two copy protection schemes that sucked even more:

    Lenslock - used by a few 80s home computer games. I'm fairly certain it might have been a UK-only thing. It was horrible. You had to fold this crappy bit of plastic a certain way and hold it over a part of the screen. If you were lucky, and your TV wasn't too large or too small, you might be able to make out the decoded letters which you had to type in.

    And then one we used at work: Parallel port dongles. I used to work in electronic CAD and all the software used this, the result being you needed 5 or more dongles all plugged in at the same time to do any useful work. In the end we got someone in the workshop build a kind of "dongle motherboard" where you could plug in multiple dongles more conveniently than having them hang out the back of the machine, and more importantly pull them out to swap between machines.

    Happy days ... No, actually sucky days. I'm glad I use almost completely free software now.

    Rich.

    1. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      Oh I remember those two. Nasty. Another one was the donglefor leaderboard golf. On the Atari 800 you had to put it in the second joystick port to play. It was a sealed epoxy resined thing so no way to get in without destroying it's secrets.
      Anyhow, I wrote the worlds shorted Atari Basic program i.e. print stick(1) which displayed what the joystick port was seeing and all it was was up and down simultanously so I bought a joysick connector shell, wired the two lines up and voila - it worked just fine :-)
      World's lamest copy protection, basically.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    2. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by larien · · Score: 1
      Yup, I remember lenslok; I didn't find it too bad once you got the hang of it, even on the crappy TV I had on my speccy. It could occassionally be painful at times if you got the sizing wrong, though.

      I never actually had to deal with dongles, although I did see them around from time to time. I've seen the daisy chains as you say, hanging off the back of the desk... urgh...

    3. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by hairykrishna · · Score: 1

      Fucking leslock. I curse it to this day. Amstrad CPC with a greenscreen + lenslock was an exercise in futility. First example I remember of being prevented from using software I had actually paid for.

      --
      "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
    4. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by drspliff · · Score: 1

      Capcom I think released a fighting game similar to Mortal Combat in the mid 90s, and distributed with it was a code book - matte black paper with shiny black codes which would just show up all black if photocopied.

      To play the game it'd say something like "Page 3 row 5 column C", then look it up in the code book and squint with the light in the right direction to get the code.

      Similar-ish idea, but much less retarded.

    5. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by Threni · · Score: 1

      > Anyhow, I wrote the worlds shorted Atari Basic program i.e. print stick(1) which displayed what the joystick port was seeing and all it
      > was was up and down simultanously so I bought a joysick connector shell, wired the two lines up and voila - it worked just fine :-)
      > World's lamest copy protection, basically.

      I did that, only it was for the ST. I wired up a dip switch, wrote some code to tell you what value to set it to - voila indeed.

      Of course, cracking the games properly wasn't much harder. Just look for routines like that ended in:

      moveq #0,d0
      rts
      moveq #1,d0
      rts

      and get NOPping!

    6. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by shippo · · Score: 1

      There was at least one Lenslock game which had the incorrect lens shipped in some boxes, causing endless fun for the unfortunate customer.

      Parallel port dongles were another matter. I spent a lot of time in the 1990s supporting Banyan VINES. Banyan used parallel port dongles on each server; the dongle not only served as a copy protection mechanism as it had to be present at boot time, but also was used to generate each server's unique network address. Hence it wasn't possible to boot up a server from one dongle and then switch the dongle to another one.

      Banyan's dongles also could themselves be upgraded. If you purchased an extra software option (for example WAN server to server, or SMTP mail gateway), you needed to transfer the option from the option dongle to the server dongle. You did this by shutting down the server software, and then waiting a few minutes for the option to copy across. You could also then transfer options between servers by means of an empty dongle if needed.

      This option copying mechanism often broke, resulting in servers that couldn't boot due to an incorrect checksum. Eventually Banyan relented and moved to paper based activation keys instead.

    7. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      >I did that, only it was for the ST
      Now you mention it, it was Leaderboard on the ST, I just used the 800 to read the dongle as it was easier.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    8. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by mindwhip · · Score: 1

      I had one game that used Lenslok, unfortunately I could only ever manage to read the code on the 'main' TV in the lounge that I hardly ever got to use for playing games. Then a little while later I got a Multiface3 for my speccy, snapshotted the game to disk just after putting in the code and had no more problems ever.

      Ahh.. the Multiface, one of my favorite computer peripherals ever!

      --
      [The Universe] has gone offline.
    9. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by HockeyPuck · · Score: 1

      MOD PARENT UP...

      Anybody that worked with Banyan deserves modpoints.....

    10. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by Bazman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lot of these speccy games that used randomly generated lookup codes (either in a book or lenslok) could be beaten by poking the frame counter to zero before loading the game. Random numbers on the speccy were generated from the frame counter - it was pretty much the only source of entropy on the box[1]. So if you did:

        POKE 23762,0; POKE 23763,0; POKE 23764,0; LOAD "" [2]

      then, since interrupts were disabled during LOAD, the random number generator would always pick the same one (or possibly two in edge cases) 'random' example. So you only had to copy this one down to pass to your friends along with your C60 cassette.

        I'm not sure if other sources of entropy were available. I vaguely recall the Z80's IR register looking rather random, and maybe you could get noise out of the cassette input... Happy days...

      Barry

      [1] The real source of entropy they relied on was the time between the computer starting and the user typing LOAD "".
      [2] I looked this up - I don't remember it being 3 bytes, but the internet doesn't lie.

    11. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by lightversusdark · · Score: 1

      My copy of OCP Art Studio for the ZX Spectrum came with the wrong LensLok. The first replacement they sent me was also wrong.
      By the time I got a working one, I had figured out how to crack it. My first crack, and as with a poster above, motivated by a piece of software I had paid for.

      --
      "There is nothing nice about Steve Jobs and nothing evil about Bill Gates." - Chuck Peddle
    12. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by mnbjhguyt · · Score: 1


      And then one we used at work: Parallel port dongles.

      there still are parallel port dongles, although they are being phased out by usb dongles.
      aladdin / hasp sells such protection mechanisms.

    13. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by krytor · · Score: 1

      Wow that jogs a faded memory of mine... I cracked OCP Art Studio for the C64 when I was a kid because the copy protection was so damn annoying. I think all I did was browse through the first few disk sectors (displayed as 6510 assembly language) and NOP'ed the JSR instruction (and address) that called the protection routine. I remember thinking "Well.... that was easy."

    14. Re:Article sucks, but I remember two ... by richardpaulhall · · Score: 1

      On the C=64, some programs would set the volume to 0 on the sound chip, set the chip to Noise, and get a random number that way.

  19. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by snl2587 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Quality product at a reasonable price.

    ...and completely without copy protection. I can honestly say that I have only gotten cracks for games I already own a full license to, but I would have never needed to if the games hadn't been virtually padlocked with a faulty key.

    I bet a lack of copy protection would also lower the number of calls to tech support as well.

  20. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Unfortunately not. If you have no money when a reasonable product is offered to you and you can copy it for free, the reasonable price isn't going to prevent a copyright violation. When your competitors have higher prices and make even more people copy their stuff, the dam is broken and you stand even less of a chance to be paid a reasonable price. The ultimate copy protection is to stop giving the product and offer it's functionality as a service, which can't be copied, so it doesn't need copy protection.

  21. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by arotenbe · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'd say the ultimate copy protection would be an awful, expensive product. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be working for the music industry...

    --
    Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
  22. Grinding disk drives. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I remember copy protection from the days of 5 1/4 inch floppy disks, back when I'd have to boot off the game disk to play. The drive would start grinding like crazy before the game finally started. I never experienced problems but I recall hearing that the copy protection was taxing on the drive and could damage it.

    This prevented someone from just copying the files on the disk directly. But there was an application that just copied the image and got around that nonsense.

    Things haven't really changed. I don't understand why they just don't give up. This has been repeated many times, but it's true. All they're doing is inconveniencing consumers who actually paid for the product.

    1. Re:Grinding disk drives. by KPexEA · · Score: 1

      The actual protection was a bad sector on the floppy and the program would read it and make sure the error matched what it was expecting. The side-effect was that the rom software on the disk drive did a reset of the head position a couple of times to try and read the sector and that was the grinding noise that you would hear.

    2. Re:Grinding disk drives. by Detritus · · Score: 1

      The Apple II was ideal for copy protection. Due to the design of the floppy drives and controller, the programmer had low-level access to the guts of the drive. You could directly manipulate the stepper motor used for head positioning and do all sorts of bizarre data encoding and track formatting tricks.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    3. Re:Grinding disk drives. by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 1

      I remember a copy protection scheme that quarter-stepped the floppy drive head between sectors, so the tracks on the disk were recorded in spirals. It wasn't a grinding sound, but it did make a lot of clicks (16 per each rev of the disk). This meant that a simple bit copy would result in a corrupted copy - until someone came out with a quad track density drive.

      --
      Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
    4. Re:Grinding disk drives. by Threni · · Score: 1

      > The actual protection was a bad sector on the floppy and the program would read it and make sure the error matched what it was expecting.

      On some systems it was the opposite - the disk surface was damaged in some way (ie a laser). A value is written to the disk. If you can't read the value back, it's an original. A copy will have a perfect surface, and so the matching read indicates a pirate copy. Or a backup. And of course, requiring your original media be writeable is asking for trouble, although this was before viruses, and people were more computer literate then.

    5. Re:Grinding disk drives. by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      The actual protection was a bad sector on the floppy and the program would read it and make sure the error matched what it was expecting. The side-effect was that the rom software on the disk drive did a reset of the head position a couple of times to try and read the sector and that was the grinding noise that you would hear. That noise is forever associated with the terror of wondering if the last day's writing on my school essay was gone for good. You really heard about those bad sectors back with the 5 1/4" floppy drives ... and it was exactly the sound of impending doom :(

      My favourite aspect of piracy on the Apple ][, though, was the custom "Cracked by ..." messages inserted by the software pirates. I still remember my copy of Skyfox (great game!) having the cracker's name, followed by "Nothing fancy, but it works" ... Now, every time I see or hear that phrase, a little bit of my memory conjures up the memory of happy hours spent playing the game as a kid :)

    6. Re:Grinding disk drives. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, there were some nasty ones. The Gamebase64 project (which is an attempt to create a library of all known Commodore 64 games) spent ages trying to get a working copy of an old RPG called _The Realms of Darkness_ because the copy protection scheme was not only tough enough to give serious cracking crews headaches, but actually destroyed the contents of the disk over time! They eventually managed, after acquiring numerous copies and spending ages trying to restore the data from them, to get a good set of disk images though:

      http://www.gamebase64.com/oldsite/lost2realms.htm

    7. Re:Grinding disk drives. by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      My favourite aspect of piracy on the Apple ][, though, was the custom "Cracked by ..." messages inserted by the software pirates. I still remember my copy of Skyfox (great game!) having the cracker's name, followed by "Nothing fancy, but it works" ... Now, every time I see or hear that phrase, a little bit of my memory conjures up the memory of happy hours spent playing the game as a kid :) I loved the C64 cracked games. Their "cracked by" screens not only had cool graphics, but the cool music as well.

      Ironically, some cracked versions are much harder to find. They're lost now - what a shame.
    8. Re:Grinding disk drives. by LeeMeador · · Score: 1

      I think the Apple II may have had the first copy protected program. Visicalc came out late in 1979, as I remember. (A spreadsheet ... not a game.) They doubled the sector numbers stored in the sector header on each track. A regular copy wouldn't be able to find the odd numbered sectors and failed. The disk had to use a patched version of Apple DOS that did the sector number doubling when reading but wouldn't do that when saving or loading data files from another diskette. When a friend that worked at a computer store called me and said you couldn't copy the Visicalc disk, the puzzle consumed me. (This is not a desirable character trait, trust me.) I borrowed his original and messed with it until I found the answer. There was a program to copy Visicalc that even got an article in the Wall Street Journal around then. Front page of one of the back sections.

  23. My company's strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think we're pretty reasonable.

    The software can be downloaded and trialed for 30 days. After that time, it locks out. Could you set your system clock back 30 days? Sure. Do we really care too much? No. If you want to keep your system out of sync by a month just to avoid paying us, you are a doofus.

    If you want a license, there are many types available. Our software views documents. You can license an entire web server to serve documents to our viewer, and it will view them. You can get a LAN license which locks to a hostname which allows you to install the software on a file server, and anybody running the software off that server is licensed. If you change hostnames, You can even buy a utility that allows you to embed a license inside a document, so that anybody with a free copy of the viewer can view that particular document.

    The license is protected with some simple ciphering. Could it be broken? Sure. Could the host locking be broken? Sure. We don't really care too much. The license is there to keep people from accidentally installing the software on more than one file server. If you want to do it deliberately, you need to set both hosts to the same hostname. Or figure out how to hack the encryption. We don't delude ourselves into thinking this is impossible. To our knowledge, nobody has bothered. If somebody came up with a keygen and put it out on the Internet, we'd be pissed. But our response would probably be to switch to another cipher. If our software was suddenly so popular as to inspire some cracker to write a keygen, my first response would probably be "Cool beans."

    None of the licensing mechanisms are onerous. It doesn't "phone home." It doesn't expire silently. If you want to extend your eval, we are happy to work with you.

    We prefer to sell our software by providing quality. If it's not worth the $XXX to you, then either you don't have a legitimate use, or our price is too high. But we're not going to treat our legit customers like criminals just to get that extra 1% in licensing.

    1. Re:My company's strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but too bad your company, WJJSoft, won't fix all the problems in MyBase that I've pointed out.

    2. Re:My company's strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that was a fascinating read, but it's not my company.

    3. Re:My company's strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember the days when if you had the original install disk, a valid serial number, and the USB dongle, you could use the software.

      If your computer broke, you could just get another one and install the software on it!

      Ah, those innocent times before online 'call and response' challenges tied to your hardware. Nowadays a new computer can mean weeks of endless emails to prove the last one really did break down.

    4. Re:My company's strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember the days when if you had the original install disk, a valid serial number, and the USB dongle, you could use the software.

      In our case it's not even that involved. There's no "original install disk," there's no dongle, and the "serial number" is basically a license file.

      Nowadays a new computer can mean weeks of endless emails to prove the last one really did break down.

      In our case, if you change hostnames (the only thing the software looks at), you can just call us and tell us you did it. We don't require proof of anything. We certainly have no way of proving you destroyed the old license. You could, theoretically, keep using the old one at the same time, at least until it expired (and of course, we wouldn't renew it for you). Again, it's about trust. If you trust us enough to send us your money, we trust you not to deliberately jack us.

    5. Re:My company's strategy by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This works fine for things that aren't too popular. Once you get something that is "popular" is when the pirates, crackers and reversers decide to attack.

      The problem with this scheme is that it works fine when people respect you and your product. Having something popular and suddenly 90% of the potential users will find a warez copy that somebody bought with a stolen credit card. And there is a keygen or whatever it takes to use the product without paying.

      Mostly, it is respect and there is damn little of it today. So companies try to force respect and that doesn't work either. Offering a good product at a realistic price doesn't work when people want to make it into a political statement.

  24. The irony... by damburger · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...is that the people who are described as the good guys in this article are the ones who want to control your computer, and even more they refer to those wanting to choose what to do with their own computers as 'crackers'

    --
    If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    1. Re:The irony... by Zironic · · Score: 1

      People that break copy protections (Specifically unprotect .exe's) refer to themselves as crackers.

  25. Anyone remember Robocop 3's copy protection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Robocop 3 dongle ... a bit of hardware that you attached the the parallel port on the Amiga 500. It was cracked days before the official release. It was just asking the parallel port for a code to unlock the game.

    With the proliferation of USB ports on computers these days though could you have some weird hardware that a CPU couldn't emulate at speed? In the same way that software depends on graphics accelerators make it dependent on some weird USB hardware that's used for in-game-physics or text layout or something.

    I mean it can't be the case that computers are fast enough to emulate everything, so these days couldn't we make custom hardware that a game required?

    1. Re:Anyone remember Robocop 3's copy protection? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Robocopy 3 dongle connected to the mouse/joystick port (which irritatingly meant you had to unplug the mouse) and simply simply held the "joystick" both left and right at the same time. The game cost £35, £10 more than the average. You can see why people went for the cracked version.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  26. Copyright protection schemes get in the way ... by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

    ... of legit users. A while ago I wanted to play Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay, never came to it when it was "new", but it wouldn't work on my new machine with Windows Vista. The fix was easy, download the no-cd patch (the one with copyright protection removed) and it works without a single issue.

    Copyright protection software often abuses certain OS features which could be "fix" in a security update and thereby rendering the copyright protected software useless.

  27. Ahh the good ole Apple IIe days by multi-flavor-geek · · Score: 1

    Copying video games from each other, we each had our disk of copy protection cracking software, some were better than others though. I had all the good games, moon patrol, Conan the Barbarian, Ms. Pac Man, Karateka, Serpentine, Q Bert, etc... Ahh, those were the days, 1 megahertz processors, 64 kilobytes of ram (that swapped back and forth) and cracking software when the teacher wasn't looking. Not bad for being in fourth grade (circa 1983)

    --
    Like arts? Like cheesy little Indie mags? Check out www.artwerkmag.com, and don't laugh at the bad coding please.
    1. Re:Ahh the good ole Apple IIe days by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      Copying video games from each other, we each had our disk of copy protection cracking software, some were better than others though. I had all the good games, moon patrol, Conan the Barbarian, Ms. Pac Man, Karateka, Serpentine, Q Bert, etc... Funniest part of Kareteka was the end -- you kill the baddies, kill the Eagle (*screech screech, screech screech*), kill Big Momma (our technical name at the time for the evil head honcho dude) and then finally get to the girl ...

      And she just stands there! So of course you sidle up to her, expecting some romantic finish (the first time any of us did this, there was a crowd of ten around the computer, in awe that someone had finished the game) ... and she takes one look at you, and kills you with a single kick! As if to say, "Geez, kiddo, you mean I got myself captured and locked up in some stinky dungeon just to be rescued by a loser like you??"

      Of course, the trick was to psych yourself up and run into her arms. Whereupon you got a pretty romantic kiss for the time (including a little leg pop from her) ...

      We worked that out the next time, after the laughter of the alternate ending had faded ... :)

  28. My favorite "copy protection" by rmsnwbrdr · · Score: 0

    Some of the older copy protection schemes were actually quite ingenious. Leisure Suit Larry 3 was my favorite. There is a point in the game where there is a locker in a gym (called Fat City) with some vital items that must be retrieved to continue the game. What's the combination? Good question. It took my friend and I about 2 weeks to figure it out. In the instruction manual there are mock advertisements for products in the game and for Fat City. The combination to the locker ended up being the page numbers in the manual with the Fat City ads. No manual? Then you would never get passed this part of the game. Sierra did similar things with King's Quest, Police Quest, etc., but the LSL-3 scheme was pretty funny.

    --
    RmSnwBrdr, The one and only! "Life SuX! Get a F@#%ing Helmet!" -Denis Leary
  29. We Copied That Floppy by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 5, Informative

    I remember in the 1980s when game vendors started burning bad sectors into Atari 400/800 floppies on which they distributed their products. Their game's loader SW would try to read those sectors and abort if they weren't unreadable, thinking that pirates couldn't replicate them with just diskdup SW.

    The Atari 810 floppy drive (the highest density storage available, like a 1TB HD is now, and the only game in town other than ridiculous tape drives, except for the extremely rare and stratospherically expensive 5MB Corvus HD) had a little potentiometer in its circuitboard controlling timing of the eletromagnetic signal waveform sent to the write head, that could be turned out of calibration to deliberately write a bad sector. So pirates would map the original's bad sector list, then copy the good sectors, then detune the pot, then write to the list of bad sectors - ruining them, then retune the pot and boot the copy.

    Sure, that's pretty complex, voids the floppy warranty, and intimidates a lot of potential pirates. So instead, some people just stuck a disklabel to the edge of the target floppy, left the label sticking out of the drive, and grabbed that tab to jiggle the floppy while writing to each of the bad sectors - ruining them. Presto!

    Besides, the pro pirates had the same mass floppy duplicators with the same programmable "write bad sector" circuitry that the original game vendors had, so the large, commercial pirates weren't fazed (pun intended ;) one bit (gotcha again >:P), but lots of honest people couldn't back up their games (which were sensitive to all kinds of transient EM, like paperclip collector magnets on desktops), and the vendors spent valuable time and money on worthless copy protection.

    In fact, beating the copy protection was often more fun than the game. So around the world people were working to beat it, even if they never played the game again, but gave copies to friends just to show how ubergeek they were.

    This cat & mouse game is in fact the exact model for all SW copy protection. It's become only a worse value waste for the SW producers, especially in content. They should use their only advantage, their earlier possession of the SW/content, to make big bucks at the first release, just like Hollywood does for movie premiere big weekends. Then let the pirates do their distribution work for free, and charge for support, customization, and subscriptions to upgrades. And build brands to sell their future releases.

    Because "Don't Copy That Floppy" has been a losing battle, long before people would say "what's a floppy?"

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:We Copied That Floppy by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I remember all that, especially tugging the floppy during the bad sector write. Of course, stuff like the Happy board, 1050 Duplicator etc made it a lot easier copying 8bit Atari games.
      Back then it was more about collecting titles than anything and people would try and out do each other on numbs 'hey, I've got 400 floppies full of games!' etc. The few games I actually played were the ones I bought, partly out of bloody mindedness i.e. having payed GBP35 for a game I was damn well going to get 35 worth of game no matter how bad it was, especially when it took 20 mins to load off a tape. The other thing was I always felt guilty enough to cough up for a game I really got some use of - Infocoms, Defender, Dig Dug, Archon etc.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    2. Re:We Copied That Floppy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "controlling timing of the eletromagnetic signal waveform sent to the write head" Pretty sure it didn't. You mean the tachometer, what set the rotation of the disc at about 300 RPM. You can't change the timing of the bits unless you change the crystal oscillator running the show.

    3. Re:We Copied That Floppy by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Maybe you're right, but that would be telling, wouldn't it ;)?

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    4. Re:We Copied That Floppy by mgblst · · Score: 1

      floppy warranty.

      Ha, that is one of the funniest thing I have ever heard of.

  30. The Arms Race by xrayspx · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I loved being the 7834th person to figure out how to crack Psygnosis titles back in the Atari ST days. Not that I cared about being able to copy the games, they were available anywhere, but just to figure out how to get around the hurdle.

    Back then every game was like buying two games, one that they wanted you to play, and one that they didn't want you to play, the "figure out how to copy it" game. I was never really any good at the cracking-the-game game, but it was interesting and fun anyway.

  31. Well that was a crap article by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

    Badly researched, inaccurate...
    It misses out on huge chunks of anti-piracy techniques, introduces stuff like it was new ten years after it was first used and asfor 'typing programs into DOS' - WTF?
    This has to be one of the worst articles a slashdot story has linked to for some time.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
  32. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by dhavleak · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The ultimate copy protection: Quality product at a reasonable price.

    Strongly disagreed.

    Copy-protection (akin to shrink/theft prevention) is a completely seperate issue from pricing.

    Customers have every right to think a product is overpriced, and not make a purchase. Similarly publishers have every right to think their product is worth a certain price, and charge accordingly. They might price themselves out of the market if they get the pricing wrong, but they are still well within their rights to decide their price. There might be a tradeoff where a certain price point strikes an optimum balance between legal purchases and illegal downloads - but there's not been a proven case of that happening yet (though hopefully Amazon will prove to be just that for MP3s at least).

    Ultimately this argument might work for something like music with is a 1-dollar or less purchase. But this same argument won't extend well to movies, games, operating systems etc. where even the break-even price point could be anywhere from $10 to $100. Comparing that against 'free' -- it's easy to predict what choice most people will make.

  33. DO NOT WANT by ewhac · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You know, I used to really enjoy playing Team Fortress Classic under the old Half-Life engine. Even the occasional cheater would provide some amusement. Then Valve jammed Steam down everyone's throat, and suddenly I couldn't play anymore. Because I refused to install Steam.

    I think I'd enjoy playing Half-Life 2. But I won't install Steam. Same deal for Portal; looks like enormous fun. But I will not install Steam.

    You seeing a trend here?

    Valve is leaving at least $120 retail on the table. I am paying for entertainment. I am not paying for remote monitoring. I can look after my own machines, thank you. All Valve has to do is delete the Steam requirement, and they can have my money.

    Schwab

    1. Re:DO NOT WANT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just get a pirate copy. No need to mess about with Steam then.

    2. Re:DO NOT WANT by Kneo24 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, you can play your games in offline mode, where STEAM doesn't snoop on you all the time. That's great for single player games like Portal. Online games, ok, you can't exactly play them in offline mode. Now, at the very least, you can play half the games you mentioned.

    3. Re:DO NOT WANT by Capitalist+Piggy · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, TF2 isn't nearly as fun as TFC. I don't think Steam is a terrible model. It really cut down on cheating, which is what eventually pushed me completely away from PC gaming. I always kept a separate system for gaming than work and bills, so I really couldn't find myself upset about anything Steam might be looking at.

      Aside from others cheating, at least on my console, I don't have to worry about getting booted from games for supposedly cheating when my frags are 25-0. After playing TFC and BF1942 for a few years, I was banned on many pubby servers for simply having too many good runs with an admin playing on the opposing team making accusations and perma-banning me from coming back.

      On the subject of consoles, I really see this as the way of the future when it comes to gaming. More, bigger titles are coming to these systems and offer a better environment than sitting, hunched over a desk. If you want to take your game to a friend's house, no problem. Put the disk in and you are playing online with the same graphics, controls, etc at a different house.

    4. Re:DO NOT WANT by ZiakII · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well coming from my point of view,I love steam, and because of how they do their copy-protection/distribution I will always buy from them. I have one account that has all the PC games that I play. I decided to reformat my computer and don't have the CDs? I can leave my computer downloading overnight and have over 30+ gigs downloaded of games I purchased. I go to our CS labs I install steam and download the game and play with my buddies, not a problem since it does not care how many computers it installs on. One thing I absolutely love about steam (well valve games...) is when we used to play in our CS lab we would use my account to install the game on about 12 computers, as long as my account was only playing on a LAN all 12 computers were able to play the game. It also didn't care that we had made the server a public server so other people could play with us as well. Valve treats customers right and because of this I don't mind paying money for their software, if all game companies treated their customers as well as Valve does I believe we would see less piracy.

    5. Re:DO NOT WANT by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      You sit there and seethe with rage, and I'll be enjoying my TF2, HL2, Portal and many non-Valve games :)

    6. Re:DO NOT WANT by mgblst · · Score: 1

      I agree, I am the same.

      And not so much seething in rage, just found some more time to do non-computer related activites. Not being able to play HL2 hasn't seemed to affect me so far.

    7. Re:DO NOT WANT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, $120? Surely Valve will go bankrupt!

    8. Re:DO NOT WANT by yyr · · Score: 1

      If you want to play games more often and decide to get a console (specifically, an Xbox 360 or a PS3), you can enjoy all of those games on it while avoiding Steam entirely.

    9. Re:DO NOT WANT by lusiphur69 · · Score: 1

      Your points about cheating in Steam are well made - to be honest, I have never viewed as onerous the requirement that Steam be used to authenticate for online play. It's a convenient distribution method in addition to a solid way to increase security against exploiters/cheaters. Personally, I have no longing for the days of WON authentication to play TFC, CS or anything else.

      Honestly, Steam has to be one of the least obtrusive / offensive copy protection schemes in existence (though I think Valve is cheap for offering XCOM as a direct rip using a fanmade patch and not giving me my money back when I could not run it under XP - I should have just grabbed it from a torrent so I could use DOSBOX.)

    10. Re:DO NOT WANT by Stormie · · Score: 1

      You know, you can play your games in offline mode, where STEAM doesn't snoop on you all the time.
      Some games maybe, but you can't play Half-Life 2 single-player in offline mode. Steam just doesn't allow it. So when I suffered a week long internet outage, tried to cure my WoW withdrawals with some HL2, and couldn't, I swore never ever to spend another cent on a game sold via Steam.
    11. Re:DO NOT WANT by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      I've never tired the offline mode with any of Valve's games (done it with other games like Geometry Wars), so that could be true. They do after all track things like how long it took you to complete a level, what you found, and where you died at.

  34. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I feel less inclined to copy if I'm cheapskating over a reasonable price (when I say 'less inclined', I've never actually copied anything that wasn't abandonware, but feel more tempted to when it's something that I can't stretch to than something that I won't stretch to). If you're charging £15 I'll buy it, or I'll do without, I might even push that to £20 for something that had a good demo, but if you're charging £35 I won't buy it. *I* won't copy it either, but you still don't get a sale. The point is that with a reasonable price for the product you'll get the middle-ground people (who have some moral compunction against copying but lose it when they realise that you're trying to rip them off) to cough up. You probably get the same amount of money overall, I suppose the status quo lets you keep those pirate figures up.

    Perhaps the point of a reasonable price as copy protection is that your average man on the street likes to see rip-off merchants get ripped-off themselves. If you had someone come to your door, offer to clean your windows for "two-fifty", and then ask for £250 when the work was done, not £2.50, would you have any problem with writing a cheque for £250 and immediately cancelling it, thus getting whatever work was done for free? I don't think that most people would, and it's getting those 'most people' to not see the game publisher as the rip-off merchant, and thus be willing to pay the price asked for what they're getting, that reasonable-price-as-copy-protection is aimed at.
    If someone offers you a deal that is clearly a rip-off, do you just politely decline, or do you try to twist the deal so that you get to do the ripping off? Quite a lot of people would do the latter - that's the spirit behind quite a lot of piracy, and threatening people that they'd better accept your rip-off deal or else isn't going to make that spirit go away - not appearing to rip them off will. The fool and his money are easily parted - the rest of us don't like people who try to demonstrate the former of us by doing the latter.

    --
    FGD 135
  35. They talk about StarForce but not the sony root ki by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    They talk about StarForce but not the sony root kit that was just as bad.

  36. Boy, I could have written this a lot faster by Dan667 · · Score: 3, Funny

    rev1: fail
    rev2: fail
    rev3: fail
    rev4: fail
    rev5: fail
    rev6: fail
    current: seeing what happens (fingers crossed!)

  37. C&C RA by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 2, Funny

    One of the C&C Red Alert games...it would work out someone in a network play had the game copied (most of us were legit, but 8 people buying the same game is rare), but you wouldn't know immediately until everyone had at least a construction yard, power plant, refinery and barracks built for everyone, then without warning and for no apparent reason, everyone's buildings exploded at once like everyone had been nuked.

    It would've been a good photo to take of everyone's expressions at that exact moment, because it certainly took us by surprise and convinced us to, er, try even harder to crack it. Which we did.

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
    1. Re:C&C RA by Taibhsear · · Score: 1

      C&C Generals does this as well. I actually OWN the game. Playing single player now does this to me, without reason. Just another example of stupid copy protection only screwing over the legit customers.

  38. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by mpe · · Score: 2

    If you have no money when a reasonable product is offered to you and you can copy it for free, the reasonable price isn't going to prevent a copyright violation.

    However such a person was never a "potential customer" in the first place. In the worst case senario the seller/publisher/etc has lost nothing. (The same actually applies even if someone had the money but would have either copied for free or done without it).
    It's also possible for "pirate copies" to generate actual sales which would never have otherwise existed without any additional marketing cost.

  39. Murphy's law of mod points... by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    You know I just used up my last mod point 5 minutes ago! LOL

    OTOH, I wouldn't have been able to decide between Funny and Insightful, anyway...

  40. One of My Favourites... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...was the Leather Godesses of Phobos text adventure. The game came backed with several odds 'n' ends, among which was a comic book.

    Towards the end of the game there was a sequence required to navigate through a maze of sewer pipes. The exact sequence of moves was detailed in the comic and was absolutely impossible to guess at--who would guess at stopping to mimic the mating call of a local crab species?

  41. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 1
    True. All these copy prevention mechanism just have an economic effect. Any mechanism will be cracked quickly once a product is out in numbers. After that, there's a 'free' version that is easy to copy, but comes in a form that takes time on the user side: time to find on a P2P network, time & bandwidth to download, perhaps time to burn a CD/DVD. It also misses some things that come with the original: an original box, paper manual, CD artwork and perhaps a warm feeling inside from knowing you supported the creators.

    These 2 versions compete, and a copy protection has influence on how attractive each version is. Make it too cumbersome, and the illegal (free) version becomes more attractive. Make it weak, and it becomes extremely easy to create an illegal copy from an original. Make the original too expensive, and you make the illegal version more attractive.

    For a small numbers product I can understand a cumbersome copy protection scheme. But why for a mass market product? If your product is good enough, then your potential market is everyone that is interested, and has the hardware to run it. If you price it ridiculously cheap, say production cost + $1 for a plain CD/DVD in jewel case, then who will bother to search on P2P network, download a full ISO (or multiple ISO's), and burn the whole thing (on discs that are cheap, but not free either)? Nobody. Time is precious, so people are willing to spend money to save time.

    So the solution for software makers is easy: if the potential market for your product is big (in terms of number of customers), then:
    • Provide your product in any form that customers desire: downloads via fast servers/BT, plain physical media, collectors boxes / limited editions that include extra goodies.
    • Make your product easy to obtain. Read: get a copy through a 5-minute effort without leaving your home.
    • Payment through any means you can think of, delivery as download via fast servers/BT, or physical media at near production-cost.
    • Forget about copy-protection, since they reduce the value of your product, make the illegal version more attractive, and... increase your development costs (slightly perhaps, but still)
    No matter how high the development costs, you will recoup those if enough people give you $1 a pop. Size your development budget according to an estimate of how sensational/desirable your product will be.
  42. Kings Quest III by AdamTrace · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From the article: "Perhaps the most notorious example of this method is Sierra's King's Quest III, in which lengthy passages of potion recipes and other information had to be reproduced from the manual. One typo, and you were greeted with a "Game Over" screen."

    I never viewed this as "copy protection", as such. If it was, I thought it brilliantly played into the actual game.

    The spot in the game is where you're creating a potion or magical item. You needed to follow the directions PRECISELY, or the spell would backfire. I remember typing VERY slowly and carefully, doublechecking everything. It really enhanced the experience of the game, for me.

    If it was meant purely as copy protection, I thought it actually ADDED something to the game.

    Adman

    1. Re:Kings Quest III by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

      Yes, I remember that game and the spell book. I agree with you. I knew that it was for copy protection, but I didn't mind. It added to the game because it was in theme.

      Of course, I pirated about 50% of my Sierra games. I have only myself to blame for the lack of adventure games, I suppose. In my defence, I was a teenager. I didn't have a lot of spare income to spend on computer games.

      Oh, and the change to the point and click interface from the command line. That's what probably did them in:

      insted ov puzlle solvage me clik many thing untuil puzzl over! ha me win!

      Imagine that I typed that really heavily, like a really dumb guy trying to mash the message into the computer.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    2. Re:Kings Quest III by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      insted ov puzlle solvage me clik many thing untuil puzzl over! ha me win!
      Imagine that I typed that really heavily, like a really dumb guy trying to mash the message into the computer.


      The sad thing is, you had to add that last line. Otherwise we'd just think you were a slashdot regular, a cellphone user, or maybe a college graduate.

  43. No mention of e-books? by RexDevious · · Score: 4, Insightful

    E-Books *should* have been the first victims of internet piracy, simply because they were the smallest, and all the content was just good ol' plain text. Ever wonder why it's a hell of a lot easier to get a pirate copy of a whole DVD than it is to get one of a non-Guttenberged E-Book?

    One reason may be the incredibly elegant system of copy protection they used. You unlock the book with 2 pieces of information - the name and credit card number you used to buy the book. Now... someone might not think twice about throwing up a bunch of serialz out to the general public; but publishing their name and credit card number to a site that caters to thieves? Kinda loses it's appeal.

    Maybe I'm missing something here. Maybe people don't mind that e-books cost just the same as their paper counterparts. Maybe computer geeks would rather lug around paper versions of Cryptonomicon than read it off their PDA's, or iPhones. Maybe someone's already cracked the .pdb e-book format, and I just haven't run across it despite having found dozens of ways of cracking movies and software.

    If so - let me know. I'd love to transfer my existing e-book collection into plain text, or possibly loan copies of some titles to people I wouldn't necessarily trust my credit card number with. I can give copies to my mum, and she could give the same copy to someone else - but she'd have to give them all my credit card info for them to read it which makes her much more discerning.

    There are other little aspects to it as well - take a look at how e-books are sold to see why they aren't pirated and see if you think it could be applied to larger software offerings.

    1. Re:No mention of e-books? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      E-books are pirated plenty but you don't know where to look. They're probably all over IRC but I only know and use #bookz on Undernet. Go into that channel and type @search or @find as a prefix to your book title or author and you should find plenty of books.

      I mostly read SF and the only blanks I've hit in that genre is recently released books. I've found all the older books I've been looking for.

      Finding non-SF books that aren't popular is harder but I can't really say much about that.

  44. This was not limited to PC software... by KC7GR · · Score: 1

    Back in the late 1980's, Data I/O Corp. first released their 'Unisite' line of memory/PLD programming hardware. At that time, they were deathly paranoid about having each and every customer pay their (probably exorbitant) fee of at least $1,400 per year for keeping the programmer's operating software up to date.

    The initial scheme to handle this, and lock a single copy of the operating software to a single programmer, was to send a preprogrammed PAL (Programmable Array Logic) device with each update kit. This PAL had the security fuse blown during initial programming at Data I/O's factory, so it was impossible to copy.

    In order to update the programmer, you were required to install the boot floppy for the update, install the PAL in the Unisite's DIP socket, and fire everything up. The theory was that the software validated itself against the PAL's programming (it was, in effect, a hardware key), installed itself, and then literally fried the PAL chip to keep it from being used again.

    This whole scheme was rife with problems, primarily because the PAL chips were highly ESD-sensitive and the person doing the upgrade at the customer's end didn't always take ESD precautions. Bad PAL? Gotta beg Data I/O to send you a replacement. And Lord help you if your programmer happened to be far enough out of calibration that it couldn't read the PAL, or if the DIP socket was intermittent.

    Data I/O abandoned this crazy scheme barely two years later. The next thing they tried was a simple "lock the floppies to the programmer" thing by writing an encrypted hash of the programmer's hardware ID to the floppy boot sector, and having the operating software check for it. This caused massive problems with customers who had cause to try and use older device algorithms from previous disk sets, because said sets lacked the hash check.

    That scheme faded quickly into oblivion as well, and Data I/O has, as far as I know, dropped copy protection on the software for the Unisite. I don't know if they still do it for their other programmer lines.

    Happy tweaking.

    --

    Bruce Lane, KC7GR,

    Blue Feather Technologies

  45. Lotus 123 by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

    Another horrible one was Lotus 123 for DOS, mainly earlier versions. That used to write to the master floppy when it installed to track where it had been installed. When you wanted to put it on another PC you had to uninstall it first and that would restore the master floppy ready for reinstalling elsewhere. It also wrote something nasty to the HD - an unmoveable file of some sort ISTR which probably made life interesting for defraggers.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
  46. blind people have to hack e-book just to read them by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    blind people have to hack e-books just to read them. Is this what you want? you want a e-book that works with your screen reader pay more.

  47. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    I don't buy it. Starsiege Tribes was perhaps the best team-based multiplayer game ever made, released at a reasonable price and with no copy protection. And yet, during my entire college years, I think I only saw *one* legitimate purchased copy of the game (mine.) I did see hundreds of burned CDs of it, and God knows how many players online were playing from burned CDs.

  48. Code copy protection by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    Even on tape loading systems were preventing people copying the games was virtually impossible, programmers used copy protection to stop other people ripping the code and graphics out of their games.

    Quite a few Spectrum games did this. They tended to use encryption, only decrypting the part of the code that was executing. Of course the encryption was quite basic, so to make cracking harder undocumented Z80 op-codes were used, or undocumented features of the Spectrum hardware. Strange data formats on tape were popular too.

    I used to chat with the author of an Amiga Spectrum emulator, and he was always finding odd games that didn't work properly because of the protection.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    1. Re:Code copy protection by grahamwest · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The BBC micro had a number of variants of this, mostly to stop people converting the tape versions of game to run from floppy disc.

      For the most part they were trivial, but the best one used the 1MHz timer. The decryptor code was positioned immediately below the encrypted game code and ran in a (nested) loop. It XORed itself (including addresses it used for indirect loads and so on), the timer and to-be-decrypted data along with a few constants. When things magically came right the loop terminated and the very next thing in memory was the first instruction of the now-decrypted game code.

      Because the 6502 CPU only ran at 2MHz you had to figure out where in the (usually 2-6 cycles) fetch-execute cycle the, say, LDA instruction would read the hardware timer if you wanted to hand decode this. And of course the length of that instruction varied based on whether it was crossing a 256 byte page boundary or not (doing an indirect load) and so on. You couldn't move the target data because that would change the addresses being used for loads and stores and thus the progress of the decryption, you couldn't copy the code elsewhere and change it to update both copies because that would change the length of the loop and throw the timings off and you couldn't mess with the timer speed because it was fixed in hardware and, well, you get the idea.

      Clever fellow who came up with that one!

      --
      Graham
  49. Proprietary software that gives away the source by NibbleAbit · · Score: 1

    We have an approach that appears to work for us. We have an EULA, that forbids distributing, then we give our customers the source code and trust them. It appears to be working. We even encourage our customers to modify the code and we will work our updates around their changes as much as we can.

  50. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2

    Unfortunately not. If you have no money when a reasonable product is offered to you In that case, you are not the target market. Someone who has no money isn't going to buy your product anyway. Giving them a copy for free is not a lost sale.

    When your competitors have higher prices and make even more people copy their stuff, the dam is broken and you stand even less of a chance to be paid a reasonable price. Erm... That makes no sense.

    If your competitors have higher prices, wouldn't that suggest that customers would gravitate towards you, who charge a reasonable price?
    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  51. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by The+Snowman · · Score: 1

    I'd say the ultimate copy protection would be an awful, expensive product. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be working for the music industry...

    ...or for Microsoft

    --
    24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
  52. Out of print by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Easy example is a $50 game that you spend one month playing for about an hour a day -- it's not an unreasonable price to ask -- if a customer isn't willing to pay that price, they shouldn't buy the game. If a home user wants to use a particular proprietary program, but the publisher won't sell the user a lawfully made copy of the program at any price, what should the user do?
    1. Re:Out of print by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If SCO wants to use a particular GNU kernel OS, but the developers won't sell SCO a lawfully made copy of the OS at any price, what should SCO do?

    2. Re:Out of print by tepples · · Score: 1

      I see nothing prohibiting me from downloading gNewSense GNU/Linux, burning a copy on a pair of CDs (live and source), and selling it to SCO. Free software can't be taken out of print nearly as easily as proprietary software.

    3. Re:Out of print by FLEB · · Score: 1

      Learn to code.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    4. Re:Out of print by wazza · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This might not be the most popular response for our crowd here, but... either find & buy a second-hand copy of the software, or get over it.

      It's true that buying second-hand raises the problem of "How do we know they've destroyed all their copies of the program, when they sell it?", but I don't pretend to have a solution to that.

      However, if a company doesn't want to sell a particular product anymore, or doesn't want to sell it to _you_, then... you're out of luck. No company has an obligation to sell a particular customer anything. Righteous indignation on the phone may get them to change their mind, but it's still their mind that has to change in the end - you're not making the decision for them.

      It's just a tough break - and an example of how freedom to act operates.

    5. Re:Out of print by bit01 · · Score: 1

      No company has an obligation to sell a particular customer anything.

      Your reasoning is circular. Ownership, by definition, is the right to control. Many people here feel that the company concerned doesn't own the copies and so, by definition, have no say about how the copies should be dealt with.

      It's just a tough break - and an example of how freedom to act operates.

      Not at all, just a company's self-serving definition of it.

      ---

      Astroturfers and sock puppets are liars and companies have no right of anonymity. Please have the common decency to put the company you're representing in your sig and stop rationalizing deceit.

    6. Re:Out of print by johannesg · · Score: 1

      If a home user wants to use a particular proprietary program, but the publisher won't sell the user a lawfully made copy of the program at any price, what should the user do? In that particular situation, fine, copy it. If they don't want to take your money, they shouldn't complain.

      How about a company willing to sell, at a reasonable price, just to recoup the massive cost needed to build the software in the first place? Just saying that replication and distribution costs are close to zero is only counting a very small part of the total cost.

      Delivering a Ferrari to my door can be done for a few euro's (the cost of the gas for the trip from the garage to my house). Yet instinctively, most of us would realize that this is not going to happen unless I also pay for the design, production, marketing, and overal status of owning such a car.
    7. Re:Out of print by wazza · · Score: 1

      Your reasoning is circular. Ownership, by definition, is the right to control. Many people here feel that the company concerned doesn't own the copies and so, by definition, have no say about how the copies should be dealt with.

      No arguments there. I was referring to those copies of the software (perhaps "copies" was an unfortunate term) still in the original company's warehouses. If they decide to burn them all, and tell you, "No, we won't sell you one," then you're stuck. Your only other options are to either find a third party who *will* sell you one, or to get over it.

      Not at all, just a company's self-serving definition of it.

      Regardless of whether or not people/corporations are being self-serving, it's still freedom to act. Let's face it: if I personally own some near-magical cure for some disease you've got, and I won't sell it to you for whatever reason of my own choosing, then there's nothing you can do to make me change my mind.

      No argument from me on the fact that behaving in that manner is unfair and inhumane. However, all human beings have & reserve the right to be bastards, if they want, whenever they want. Nothing you or I can do, can change that.

    8. Re:Out of print by mpe · · Score: 1

      How about a company willing to sell, at a reasonable price, just to recoup the massive cost needed to build the software in the first place? Just saying that replication and distribution costs are close to zero is only counting a very small part of the total cost.

      There may or may not be enough potential customers for that to happen. (As well as it also being perfectly possible that whilst there might be sufficent potential customers the rate of sale might be insufficent to pay your overheads in the time you have.) That is always going to be the situation when you first pay for a product (and it's means of production) then go looking for customers. It dosn't especially matter what that product might be.

    9. Re:Out of print by tepples · · Score: 1

      How about a company willing to sell, at a reasonable price, just to recoup the massive cost needed to build the software in the first place? In the case of a program, movie, album, or other work that has been published and then taken out of print, I'd guess that the company has recouped as much of this cost as it ever will. That's part of why the Bono Act was so dangerous.
    10. Re:Out of print by mcvos · · Score: 1

      If SCO wants to use a particular GNU kernel OS, but the developers won't sell SCO a lawfully made copy of the OS at any price, what should SCO do? Download it, or buy it from someone other than the developers who is willing to sell it to them.

      There's no problem whatsoever with SCO using any kind of GNU code. There's only a problem if they want to redistribute it under a different license, or in some other way that violates the GPL.

      The problem with many of these DRM/licensing schemes is that the user isn't even allowed to use the program. Or if he is technically allowed to use it, he may still be practicallly unablle to use it, because the publisher has intentionally crippled the software.
    11. Re:Out of print by quanticle · · Score: 1

      This might not be the most popular response for our crowd here, but... either find & buy a second-hand copy of the software, or get over it.

      That's all well and good until you realize that, increasingly, publishers are effectively banning second hand sales by placing restrictions in the copy protection mechanism or the end-user license agreement.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  53. You were closer to correct the first time... by msauve · · Score: 2, Insightful

    there is much more than just the development cost to consider...marketing/advertising, support, distribution, duplication, packaging, paying the rent and utilities, R&D for enhancements, return on equity for the investors, etc.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:You were closer to correct the first time... by mpe · · Score: 1

      there is much more than just the development cost to consider...marketing/advertising, support, distribution, duplication, packaging, paying the rent and utilities, R&D for enhancements, return on equity for the investors, etc.

      There are two options either you make sure that you have money from customers (or at least a contractual obligation for payment) before you spend the money or you hope that sales will at least cover your costs. The latter is always going to be a risk (for any kind of business), thus typically a company would produce several different products with the hope of making an overall profit even if some of those make a loss.

  54. Thank god for soldering irons! by aceofspades1217 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Thank god for soldering irons. As long as we got soldering irons we will still have a weapon to wield against consoles.

    But either way the most effective copy protection by any standards are consoles. PC copy protections will always be broken easily even some multi player games (namely steam games, quake, etc) have cracked servers that people with pirated copies of games can use.

    Consoles on the other hand must be chipped. Right now the only console that can be effectively chipped is the Wii. Even still that is a pretty large barrier and at the most 1% of wii users are going to chip their wii because it takes some skill and has a lot of cost.

    Personally I chip other people's Wiis and now with the wii-clip its pretty darn easy. But it isn't chepa and my cheapest chip costs 40 dollars just in parts (D2CKey and Wii Clip V1). And of course isn't easy to solder and sometimes you screw things up.

    I have almost 150 bucks invested in soldering mats etc. It is just a rather hard pitch to mess with someone's wii. But anyways I digress.

    The xbox 360 is near impossible and you can't play on the internet (kinda essential to 360 gameplay :P). On top of that the 360 is known to break every couple months.

    Unlike the wii the PS3's and Xbox's warranty gets voided simply for opening it.

    Basically I think in the Game Publishers are trying to make a shift to consoles which are pretty solid. Mod chips are not a very popular thing. 1 out of 5 kids will talk to you about a game they pirated but maybe 1 out of 80 kids you talk to will have chipped console (and 1 out of 1 thousand if its not a wii).

  55. Businesses should only pander to their customers. by chocolatetrumpet · · Score: 1

    Businesses should only pander to their customers.

    People who infringe on copyright law by failing to pay for what they use are not customers.

    Therefore, a business should not consider those people at all. They should concentrate on making the experience for paying customers as excellent as possible.

    --
    Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
  56. Nothing about Rob Northern? by chrysalis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What? An article called "history of copy protection" without any word about protections used on C64, Atari and Amiga?

    Nothing about interrupts-based and sync-based protections, encryption, memory fillers, etc?

    Nothing about the Rob Northern jokes, that were funny toys for Atari crackers?

    Fortunately, protections were not limited to PCs.

    People who use to spend nights playing with MonST and ADebug would love to have at least one word about that in an article called "history of copy protection".

    Yes, I'm getting old, but the Atari ST/Amiga days are still my best memories, the best time I ever had in my life as a computer geek.

    --
    {{.sig}}
    1. Re:Nothing about Rob Northern? by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      Ah, good old Rob Northern - I remember checking the boot sectors for their various little tricks and messages. Wonder what he does now - more of the same?

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    2. Re:Nothing about Rob Northern? by chrysalis · · Score: 1

      Yup, good'ol times.

      And a funny thing is that a lot of games used to just plug Rob's code like this:

      bsr rob_northern_check
      tst.w d0
      bne.s crash_me

      There was even no need to look at what Rob's protection did in order to bypass it.

      But yes, his little tricks and messages were fun. He probably had as much fun writing protections as we had to crack them.

      --
      {{.sig}}
  57. FlexLM - The Devil's DRM by Migraineman · · Score: 2, Informative

    FlexLM is a license manager that's been around for 20 years. You'll typically see it in corporate environments. It's horrible. It was twitchy and horrible back when it was introduced, and it's maintained that legacy of horribleness to this day. I have a full-license OrCAD installation on my laptop, and FlexLM regularly shoots itself in the head. This is an example where the DRM crap obstructs me from using the purchased product. It'll take me a couple of days to sort out which application scrogged the license file (several apps use FlexLM, and none play nice.) This is a regular occurrence, and it's one of the reasons I despise copy protection methods. I'm not using a bootleg copy of the product, yet I'm treated like I am.

    1. Re:FlexLM - The Devil's DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the great irony here would be that if you DID have a pirated copy, and circumvented the FlexDRM, your life would be made easier... like how the legitimate software would work in an ideal world.

      Not to say I'm uncovering some stunning new truth here, just seems worthwhile to mention it.

    2. Re:FlexLM - The Devil's DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The company I work for runs into this same problem -- and we even use FlexLM as the license manager for the software we produce. It's a buggy system at best. No end-of-line in the configuration file? It just silently fails to get licenses. License expired? It just fails to show up on the server -- no warnings saying, "Oh by the way, I'm not serving this license because it has expired." Our company has lost several days of productivity because the applications that we rely on are managed by FlexLM and fail without warning.

      By the way, locking an application to the machine's network card's MAC address may sound like a good idea, until you realize that machines get juggled around all of the time. The machine that hosts our FlexLM server has been through a few different ethernet cards already and the server itself has been migrated to different machines. Each time something changes we need to request new licenses for all FlexLM-based apps. Sure, it's possible to clone MAC addresses, but that quickly becomes a configuration nightmare, especially when you want to combine two separate servers on the same machine.

      FlexLM is just one of many really bad DRM systems. If a company is going to buy your program to increase productivity, you better not lower their productivity by causing repeated downtime or they won't by your product again.

    3. Re:FlexLM - The Devil's DRM by russotto · · Score: 1

      FlexLM is a license manager that's been around for 20 years. You'll typically see it in corporate environments. It's horrible.


      No, it's great. You see, it has a well-defined API. And companies TRUST it. Even companies which make software so expensive it makes your head spin. They trust it to the point they'll give away time-limited copies of the software to anyone who asks, safe in the knowledge that FlexLM will protect them from those scurvy pirates.
  58. Can't work. by DrYak · · Score: 2, Informative

    The only other alternative would be a locked down OS (far moreso than Vista) with some sort of anti-modding hardware and a hypervisor. Even that would only mostly work, Yes, because the whole stack is only as secure as the most secure of its layer.
    As soon as the whole OS, including the hypervisor, is ran inside an outer virtual box, the whole point is moot, and the hyper visor can't trust the anti-modding hardware (is it real genuine functioning hardware ? Or is the hyper visor communicating with an anti-modding hardware simulated by the emulator, communicating with it using bogus crypto keys injected by the emulator, and that simulated hardware will OK whatever pirated software goes in ?)

    The only thing that could stimulate some player to buy the game is packed in goodies. Making big game boxes filled with lots of useful items (maps) fan-service items (scale model of some ingame object) etc.
    That won't prevent dork who'll never pay for the game anyway to try hard to find a way.
    But that will make you sure that the fans will happily rush to bux the "collectors' edition" of the box. Specially if the goodies are somewhat useful.

    The only problems are :
    - This raises the costs of the distribution : Bigger boxes, more expensive to produce content (as opposed to simply 1 disc + 1 small leaflet telling that the manual can be printed from a PDF file + tons of ads). As if the creation of the game wasn't expensive enough.
    - Difficulty to use : if some goodies plays a critical role in the game (as in maps, scrolls with spell formulas, etc.) it might be inconvenient for players on the road. Some gamers like to play games while on the move (in the plane) and they might have to lug around the goodies for each game. Or, worse, suddenly come to realisation that this critical puzzle can only be solved if they use that goodie that they have left at home / lost long ago / etc.

    Games bundled with high-end gaming hardware are another solution, as gamer are likely to buy the hardware anyway, and the licensing cost for the game are small compared to the hardware it self. ATI bundling Valve products with some high-end radeon comes as an example. Even in the old DOS days this has been seen (there was a game that came with its own sound card which acted as a dongle. I think it was B.A.T.)

    Disclaimer : I tend to like "Collectors' edition" and prefering buying those. Nevertheless I systematically download cracks for any game I legally buy - simply to avoid the inconvenience of the copy protection system (be it to avoid damaging the game media - this had already happened to me - or avoiding to install some StarFuck root-kit).
    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Can't work. by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Yup, I have to install cracks on my games, mostly because some genius over at Securom decided SCSI was the devil's tool. See, because I'm smart enough to realize that 15k rpm SCSI drives are faster (and cheaper!) than Raptors, I get labeled a digital terrorist and punished by this stupid copy protection bullshit. FYI, they ban SCSI because Daemon Tools emulates SCSI devices... so in response, Daemon Tools came up with IDE emulators.

      The only games that don't get cracked, are the ones that nobody cares about. Even Daikatana was cracked... Copy protection is no longer a cat and mouse game, because the cat has ten thousand claws and a million eyes - you just can't escape it.

      The pathetic thing about it all, is that software developers pay big bucks for this protection software that doesn't even work. Oh, I mean sure it works, for the first four hours until someone releases a crack. In most cases there's a patch available before the game is even officially released, thanks to inside leaks and pre-stocked retail outlets.

      I'd much rather see the developers save their money, get rid of the copy protection and let their products thrive on their own merits. Not everyone copies games, and those that do, will not buy games. If one game is deemed "uncrackable", the warez kiddie will simply find some other game to play. You didn't make a penny more.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    2. Re:Can't work. by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      If one game is deemed "uncrackable", the warez kiddie will simply find some other game to play. You didn't make a penny more.

      Alternatively, if one game is deemed "uncrackable", tens of thousands of versions ship to people who enjoy cracking games. And in the meantime, you license the shit out of the technology.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    3. Re:Can't work. by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      back in the day, everyone I knew who could type the copy command would copy pc games. these are people who would have no idea now how to actually download warez. they used to make copy protection just complex enough to stop that person. if his friends liked the game, they'd actually buy a copy if he couldn't just give them one. so, copy protection at that level makes sense. it when they make it so complex that it degrades playability (or install-ability) for the legit user that they've gone too far.

    4. Re:Can't work. by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Tens of thousands ?

      Ever heard of an ISO image ? BitTorrent ? FTP ? DirectConnect ? What about that guy in Singapore who mails out copies for a small fee ?

      If a cracker wants a game, he doesn't get it from Walmart or Best Buy, he gets it from the internets.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    5. Re:Can't work. by mpe · · Score: 1

      The only games that don't get cracked, are the ones that nobody cares about. Even Daikatana was cracked... Copy protection is no longer a cat and mouse game, because the cat has ten thousand claws and a million eyes - you just can't escape it.

      The only known way to win here is "don't be the mouse".

      The pathetic thing about it all, is that software developers pay big bucks for this protection software that doesn't even work. Oh, I mean sure it works, for the first four hours until someone releases a crack.

      But the cost dosn't end there. Since the supplier still has to handle enquiries due to the "copy protection" breaking things for their customers.

      In most cases there's a patch available before the game is even officially released, thanks to inside leaks and pre-stocked retail outlets.

      As well as review copies.

      I'd much rather see the developers save their money, get rid of the copy protection and let their products thrive on their own merits.

      Alternativly they could spend that money in something which will improve their product.

      Not everyone copies games, and those that do, will not buy games. If one game is deemed "uncrackable", the warez kiddie will simply find some other game to play.

      Most likely the game they will be playing will be "be the first to prove that statement wrong"!

    6. Re:Can't work. by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      If a cracker wants a game, he doesn't get it from Walmart or Best Buy, he gets it from the internets.

      If your game can be cracked by just a download of an image off the internet, then you didn't really have uncrackable copy protection, then did you?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    7. Re:Can't work. by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Modern copy protection doesn't prevent the physical copy, it prevents the enjoyment of that copy. You can still make ISOs and throw them around, but they're unusable unless a cracked executable is available to bypass Securom / Safedisc etc.

      We're not in the 80s anymore, you can't protect software by warping disk sectors. They tried doing that a few years back with Safedisc, by using specific chains of edge-case hard-to-encode bits on CD, which would read just fine, but confuse the hell out of cheap burners that would either correct the shady bits, or die trying. A year later, most new burners had a revised EFM encoder that fixed the bug, effectively thwarting the copy protection.

      Today's copy protection is more like DRM, because you can't protect raw bits flying over the interweb.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    8. Re:Can't work. by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      ou can still make ISOs and throw them around, but they're unusable unless a cracked executable is available to bypass Securom / Safedisc etc.

      Yes, current copy protection does that. But modern copy protection is hardly "uncrackable". I'd assume that a truely uncrackable copy protection would require information that is not available as "raw bits flying over the interweb"

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  59. Steam is not fine by LingNoi · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Steam is fine from a copy protection point of view, it's when they start disabling accounts of those who bought their game in Thailand to get it cheaper where I draw the line.

    Some consumers who purchased Valve's Orange Box from vendors located outside of their home country--mainly in an attempt to save on cheaper products--have recently reported that their otherwise legally-obtained games have since been deactivated by Valve's Steam software for territory violation. Talking with Shacknews, Valve's Doug Lombardi now says that the Steam software is merely carrying out this function by design. "Valve uses Steam for territory control to make sure products authorized for use in certain territories are not being distributed and used outside of those territories," said Lombardi.

    "In this case, a Thai website was selling retail box product keys for Thailand to people outside of Thailand. Since those keys are only for use in Thailand, people who purchased product keys from the Thai website are not able to use those product keys in other territories." So are users who bought the game outside of their own country completely out of luck? It appears so, as Lombardi recommends purchasing a legal copy from a local shop in order to keep playing. "Some of these users have subsequently purchased a legal copy after realizing the issue and were having difficulty removing the illegitimate keys from their Steam accounts," added Lombardi. "Anyone having this problem should contact Steam Support to have the Thai key removed from their Steam account."

    This really sucks for me as I travel to and from Thailand all the time. What do they expect? I buy the orange box in every damn country?!
    1. Re:Steam is not fine by Kneo24 · · Score: 1, Interesting
      That could be Valve's way of covering their ass. I do agree it is heavy handed and lazy, however.

      Certain countries have these crazy ideas that laws need to be created to protect minors from games with "harmful" content. Some kid buys a key from Thailand, even though they live in that country. Kid downloads the game. Parents find out and get upset. They start sensationalizing what had happened and Valve now has a bad name or possibly worse.

      It just seems like they're trying to cover their ass. I'm also sure there's probably something in their TOS that covers this.

      This really sucks for me as I travel to and from Thailand all the time. What do they expect? I buy the orange box in every damn country?!

      From the snippet that you posted, you're fine as long as you buy the game from the region you say you're in. Live in the US? Buy a US version. After that point, it doesn't matter where you play the game.

    2. Re:Steam is not fine by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Valve offered a cheaper version in some countries. The box specifically stated that it would not work outside that area. Obviously some entrepreneurs decided to purchase and resell those keys outside their country without telling the buyer that there was a restriction.

      While I agree this restriction sucks for people who leave the country they purchased the cheap version of the game in. The "normal" version doesn't have this limitation.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    3. Re:Steam is not fine by Bert64 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      So those of us who are unfortunate enough to live outside of these regions are somehow unworthy of having the cheap game, and have to pay full price?

      Sounds like racism to me...

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    4. Re:Steam is not fine by laejoh · · Score: 0

      I'm confused. What's that steam thing you talk about?

      A kind of copy protection for Babage's analytical engine?

      I can hear him shout already: I wish to God this copy protection had been executed by steam!

    5. Re:Steam is not fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same for iTunes. According to the EULA the music you rent, sorry, purchase from iTunes in NZ, is not allowed to be exported with you if you happen to move to another country. Your account will be invalid and your billing address for you r credit card will be wrong.

    6. Re:Steam is not fine by andi75 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > You're fine as long as you buy the game from the region you say you're in.

      That's exactly the same stupid reasoning that's used for the #$^%&£! DVD region codes. If I buy a DVD on my vacation in the states, I can't watch it on my player at home, without going through some extra hassles.

      Vendors should have no right to put ANY export restrictions on stuff they sell. If they want to play in globally, they should accept their customers may want too...

    7. Re:Steam is not fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do they expect? I buy the orange box in every damn country?! Of course. And in a near future, they want to you pay again each time you want to play it, regardless of where you bought the box. It's such a wonderful world.
    8. Re:Steam is not fine by stbill79 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Completely off topic, but it is just another example of pseudo globalization - basically where the corporation gets to use the rest of the world to suit its motives, while not allowing the consumer the same opportunities. You can be damn sure that Valve has used cheap developers, manufacturing, and other benefits of the third world - all at the expense of Western workers. But when it comes time for the consumer to take advantage of the cheaper products in those same third world countries - forget it, our license forbids that...

    9. Re:Steam is not fine by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      A US copy of Orange Box is the same as you buy on Steam and will work fine in any reason. The distributor in Thailand had a contract not to sell the retail game outside of Thailand because it was being sold at a large discount $20. Valve deactivated the access to Orange Box for people with these Thailand copies and there was even a major delay for many people who just wanted their TF2 fix but they couldn't even purchase a normal full price copy.

    10. Re:Steam is not fine by ShadowsHawk · · Score: 1

      My HR manager asked me yesterday to copy a retail game that her son wanted to take with to her ex-husband's house. I had to explain to her why her copies wouldn't work when I could make one for her. DRM does effect normal users when they are attempting use software that they own.

    11. Re:Steam is not fine by Kneo24 · · Score: 1
      No, what's stupid is you taking a snippet without looking at the big picture. Valve has to take certain laws in different areas of the world into account. That's as simple as it gets. The region thing may be stupid from a consumer perspective, but from a companies standpoint, it keeps them from unnecessary litigation as long as they play by the book in the global market.

      Also, STEAM doesn't prevent you from playing the game anywhere in the world, which I pointed out earlier.

    12. Re:Steam is not fine by andi75 · · Score: 1

      No, Valve is only responsible for their content if they sell it in a different country.

      I don't think it is illegal e.g. to sell Nazi flags in the united states, but if you do try that in germany, you'll end up in jail. That doesn't mean you have to "region-code" the flags so they can't be exported.

      The person importing the goods has the responsibility to make sure they're legal (and is going to be arrested by german custom officials).

      > Also, STEAM doesn't prevent you from playing the game anywhere in the world, which I pointed out earlier.

      That's just wrong. Steam prevents you from playing your Thai-bought game outside Thailand. That's an export restriction. End of story.

    13. Re:Steam is not fine by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      It's only preventing you if you're not from Thailand. That was the point. You're suddenly not going to be not able to play it outside of Thailand if you weren't from Thailand.

    14. Re:Steam is not fine by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Um, all you demonstarted was that copy-protection works. It thwarted causal piracy. Why didn't her sun take the one copy to her ex-husband's house? No doubt so that someone else could play at her house. And that is the causal piracy that copy-protection prevents that keeps it in vogue.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
  60. raise your hand if... by Sebastopol · · Score: 1

    ...you still have your Infotator.

    Now, what color is a Dornbeast? ... or a yipple?

    --
    https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
  61. Re:blind people have to hack e-book just to read t by RexDevious · · Score: 1

    As my primary interest in ebooks was portability (and having them as a sound file does make them more portable) I did look into this. The blind have 2 options, last I checked.

    1. Free books on tape for the blind. They send you a special player (in the 90's it was the huge yellow tape player) and all the books you want, free of charge, and no postage. I stopped using it because first, I really did feel bad utilizing this resource when for me it was mere convenience and second, they don't hire professional book readers to narrate them so the quality is pretty lackluster.
    2. Microsoft's various PDA OS's have text to speech for ebooks built in. I didn't go this route because I long since learned there's *always* an easier way than using anything Microsoft makes.

  62. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Jesus_666 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Reasonable copy protection is fine, too. Ambrosia Software games require a license key to be unlocked. License keys are validated online and time-limited so they invalidate quickly in case they are leaked - but if your key expires you can simply enter your data in their registration program and they give you a new one. As long as you have purchased the game from them you can always request a new key.

    The result is that I feel good about buying from them. Their copy protection scheme is reasonable, it's not much of a hassle (once games are registered they get a machine-specific file saying that they are - no further online checks neccessary) and if I should lose all my data I can just download the game again and request a new license key. That last part makes the scheme almost look like a service.

    Very acceptable, very reasonable and not insulting like StarForce et al. Of course it might not work for high-profile companies as people would release cracks, but for small-to-medium sized companies I think this scheme is much superior compared to the nonsense other companies come up with.

    --
    USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  63. qcrack by Maestro485 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Kind of OT, but does anyone remember how id software distributed a Quake demo disc that had most of their catalog on it? In order to actually play the games you had to call a number and purchase the key for the game you wanted, but a program called qcrack was floating around unlocked them all. Of course, I was only 12 or 13 at the time, and hunting down qcrack on my friends AOL account to get free games was almost as cool as hacking the Pentagon :)

    1. Re:qcrack by Samizdata · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, id ended up sending me a free copy of Quake, as their distribution tech ended up nuking my Windows install at the time. Then I went a little obsessive looking for satisfaction (after fixing Windows, BTW). You would NOT believe what I had to go through to talk to a bloody human.

      --
      It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. - Colonel Henry Walton Jones, Jr., Ph.D.
  64. Re:Businesses should only pander to their customer by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    Yes, but, ... In an environment of unlimited tolerance of piracy why buy? Why become a "customer" when being a pirate offers 100% (or sometimes 110%) of the benefits?

    If the software needs constant hand-holding support, it was written wrong to begin with. Selling support is an insult to the intelligence of the customer. That is like a logic bomb waiting to go off. It says basically that you will be unable to use the product unless you keep paying for support which you will desperately need.

    Online games hold really the only answer where you have to pay for the subscription in order to use the game, no matter how you acquire the game itself. This is probably how most applications are going to go in the future - the web connection is essential and the only thing you have to pay for. Without the web connection to the "online" part the product is useless. It does indeed make piracy irrelevent.

  65. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Deagol · · Score: 1
    I bet a lack of copy protection would also lower the number of calls to tech support as well.

    Oh, how correct you are.

    I do some admin work for a small software shop. They employ a registration code key system. I keep tabs on support emails to make sure they are getting through to the support system. Maybe half of all support questions are key related. Seriously.

    "My new key didn't work."
    "I lost my key and need to reinstall."
    "I lost my key and need it to order an upgrade."

    The list goes on and on. Such a waste of man hours. Rationally, they *know* the system probably isn't worth the time lost for coding the system to begin with and supporting it. However, inertia keeps them using it. I keep waiting anxiously for the day they tell me they'll be doing away with it.

  66. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by shrikel · · Score: 1

    If your competitors have higher prices, wouldn't that suggest that customers would gravitate towards you, who charge a reasonable price?

    That's exactly what they want you to think.

    --
    Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
  67. Cassette Tapes? by iSrzMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ahh.. copy protection. Cracking TRS-80 Microchess on cassette as a teen, where the game instructions loaded directly into screen RAM via a custom cassette loader. Nirvana.. Later on, one Mits Hadeshi (SP?) posted a letter to Kilobaud magazine that his backup method of choice for computer cassettes was ... a Sony.

  68. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, the ultimate copy protection is...

    Spiradisc, bitches!

    Who cares if you have to boot the game five times until it loads.. because, when that thing caught, it loaded fast! ;)

  69. SimCity and Super Tetris, too by langelgjm · · Score: 1

    I have an old copy of SimCity that used the same method. There were a bunch of cities along with populations, and on startup, the game would ask you to provide the population for one of the cities from the four-page or so black-on-red list.

    My copy of Super Tetris, on the other hand, had a bunch of trivia questions in the manual. You were asked a question, and told to flip to a specific page for the answer, which you would type in.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    1. Re:SimCity and Super Tetris, too by Rob+Simpson · · Score: 1

      I photocopied a handwritten city list that a friend had made because I kept making mistakes trying to read my (legit) black-on-red list.

  70. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry, but this is utter tripe. Free always wins over any cost. Free is here today, and here to stay. Nobody with an Internet connection and any sense actually pays for music, movies or software anymore. Why should they? It is all available for free.

  71. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It makes perfect sense. One day Bill is a guy that believes he is perfectly honest and would never, ever stoop to pirating a game, music or a movie. Then there is a product that is way beyond his disposable income that he simply must have. The advertising has worked it charm and Bill wants this product, whatever it takes. He finds a place to download it for free or someone tells him where to get it for free.

    Yes, the dam is now broken. Bill suddenly realizes he has been living as a pauper in a world of plenty. Everything he has ever dreamed of possessing is available for free. The one web site he found leads to another and another. Bill spends days downloading everything he can find that he ever dream of owning.

    Bill is now a convert to the pirate way of life. It happens every day.

  72. Support Stardock by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Informative

    Seriously. They are a company that seems to think that copy protection isn't necessary to make money. Their Impulse program is like Steam without the suck. No DRM, no encryption, etc. Mostly older titles and indy stuff they sell, but there are some real gems in there. Sins of a Solar Empire is a current retail game and is just great. Think Homeworld crossed with Master of Orion. Well worth the money. Heck, you can even buy it retail and then register the serial, and Impulse will happily install it if you lose your disk. Depths of Peril is also great. Graphics are a bit dated but the game is top notch.

    At any rate if you want games without the bullshit, and what to support a publisher who believes in that, well then these are your people. I've been real happy so far (I own 8 games from their library). If you see a game you like, I encourage you to buy it through them. The more people that support the model, the more developers that'll realise it's a good idea and release games on it.

    http://totalgaming.stardock.com/

    1. Re:Support Stardock by dupont54 · · Score: 1

      Stardock uses an online activation DRM. It is switched on only after some patch is applied but it will then tie the software with your hardware. Though they might have more lenient rules concerning machine transfer rights than the competition, but it's still far from a DRM-free approach.
      And no, I'm not talking about the simple "enter you cd key on our web site to download updates" (I'm fine with that sort of thing). There is some hardware tying on top of that. Try to patch their games on an offline machine : it will refuse to run and ask for validation through e-mail.

  73. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    College students are probably not a typical demographic. They generally have little to no extra spending money (at least I didn't). As such, for such a technically savvy and reasonably intelligent market, their time is disproportionally less valuable than their money, and copying games would seem to be fairly attractive proposition. I wonder how many of those same college students will purchase games legitimately after they get decent paying jobs. In addition to obtaining extra spending money, I think having a job also creates more sympathy with the game developers trying to earn a living from software sales. I've heard from many people that claimed to have downloaded lots of warez in their younger days, and then started purchasing games legitimately when they got older.

    Not defending the rampant copying or anything - just an observation...

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  74. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    Maybe you're right, or maybe you're wrong, but the point is that I was refuting the statement that good products at reasonable prices aren't pirated. It's a blatant lie from my experience.

    Another example: there was a study shown shortly after the Macintosh version of Halo was released showing that over half of the copies in circulation were pirated. Halo is a game of proven quality on Xbox and PC, and was released at an average price for video games.

    It's one of those nice Slashdot fictions "we like piracy, therefore let's pretend there's no actual piracy problem." But it's simply not true.

  75. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by arotenbe · · Score: 1

    Copying Windows and Office is obsolete. These days, you just throw on Ubuntu and OpenOffice.

    --
    Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
  76. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    I was largely speculating about a particular demographic, not arguing with your overall conclusions. I certainly won't dispute that illegal game copying and distribution is rampant - the evidence is overwhelmingly there to see. It seems probable that it's largely responsible for the shrinking / marginalization of the PC gaming market. Why else would MMOs be the only (comparatively) significant genre left, which co-incidentally also happens to be server-based, and thus much more difficult to pirate?

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  77. Wow by Necrotica · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That could be the worst article on copy protection I have ever read. Nothing like doing a "history of..." article and starting roughly 10 years late. If I were a betting man I'd guess that copy protection started back on the Commodore 64 by cleverly placing errors on the media itself. The executable would force the drive head to go directly to the sector on the disk where the error was located for verification, and if it was there, the loading process continued. What was neat about this was that there were different [i]types[/i] of errors - I don't remember all of them, but the wrong kind of error would result in the program to halt loading. Of course, C= owners hated this. The sound that the 1541 drive would make as it was forced to read the error was an awful grinding sound. Some people believed that this could physically harm the drive, however I myself never experienced that and I played a hell of a lot of games. This was first circumvented by a Canadian - a man I have never met but was legendary in his home town. He's now a project manager at Microsoft I believe. His software - Super Hacker - was the first disk duplication software for the C= 64 that could copy the errors. Ha, I still get a laugh that it would take approximately 90 MINUTES to copy one 170K 5.25" disk using Super Hacker. Believe me, being a pirate in those days was a lesson in patience. As technology evolved, so too did copy protection. Half tracks, extra sectors, etc. became common place. They were easily reproduced with a bit for bit disk copy programs that started to hit the market. Copy protection has a fascinating history. From a pragmatic point of view, however, it has never made sense to me why vendors spend so much money on copy protection when it INEVITABLY will be broken. I would love to know the actual success rate of hackers vs. copy protection schemes.

  78. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by kz45 · · Score: 1

    "Quality product at a reasonable price. ...and completely without copy protection. I can honestly say that I have only gotten cracks for games I already own a full license to, but I would have never needed to if the games hadn't been virtually padlocked with a faulty key."

    and you are in the minority. Quality products at a reasonable price still get copied to bittorrent. And what is a reasonable price? Most games don't cost more than $50 or $60 (which is VERY reasonable)..but still get copied all over the Internet. Why would a company want to make it easier for you to get their commercial product for free?

    "I bet a lack of copy protection would also lower the number of calls to tech support as well."

    Yeah, it will. But I think a company would rather have a few extra support calls than fewer sales.

  79. Monkey Island and King's Quest by hansamurai · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I did a quick ctrl-f at the level I browse at and didn't see anyone mention Monkey Island and only one person mention King's Quest (didn't RTFA). Those are the first games I had experience with copy protection.

    I remember my cousin had the Secret of Monkey Island and I loved playing it at her house. The stupid wheel though was a hindrance from taking it home. I think my dad ended up photocopying every combination but that seems like there would have been a lot of permutations. Either way, a family friend eventually gave me Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge and I was able to experience the monkeyness at home until I bought the collection on CD-ROM a few years later. Curse of Monkey Island is still one of my favorite games of all time.

    The other game was King's Quest IV: Perils of Rosella. You had to type out certain words straight from the instruction booklet. We didn't own this game so we had a photocopy of the book. Eventually we lost that but I was able to remember a specific word or two from the book and just tried those over and over again until I got into the game. That game pissed me off though, I am not a fan of King's Quest these days. :P

    1. Re:Monkey Island and King's Quest by mgblst · · Score: 1

      The first game I cracked was Mechwarrior, which invovled the genius technique of searching through the exe file for the code names needed, and blanking them out, so that you only had to press return.

      I thought it was the easiest thing in the world, my friends all thought I was some sort of computer genius.

  80. All it boils down to is... by aepervius · · Score: 1

    ...the people which will copy your software for free, would they buy your software otherwise ? I have got the feeling that most of the time the answer is a loud : NO. When i was younger we casually copied a lot of software which needed decoder ring/manual or whatnot (dutifully de-constructed, copied, and reconstructed) would ANY of us swapping those soft have bought it ? No. Maybe we would have bought 1 , maybe 2 , but not the quantity we copied. So the question is : is it worth the effort to try to implement protection (which cost money in addition to your additional investment) when in the first place those which can't copy then don't buy it ? And is it worth the effort when anyway nowadays many protection are an hassle for the user (can't use some benign software like process explorer) and anyway the ISO is available for download 1 day after ? I would like to see a study of this, although it is difficult to compare games as once a protection is in/not in and sold, you can't compare the same game with a different situation. Some have no copy protection whatsoever (I think sins of an empire?). I really want to see a study with hard evidence on whether protection brings anything.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:All it boils down to is... by mpe · · Score: 1

      ...the people which will copy your software for free, would they buy your software otherwise ? I have got the feeling that most of the time the answer is a loud : NO.

      This is something which those who consider any infringement a "lost sale" just don't get.

      hen i was younger we casually copied a lot of software which needed decoder ring/manual or whatnot (dutifully de-constructed, copied, and reconstructed) would ANY of us swapping those soft have bought it ? No. Maybe we would have bought 1 , maybe 2 , but not the quantity we copied.

      There's even a question of if such piracy could lead to more sales...

  81. Ultima V ! by aepervius · · Score: 1

    My first crack ever on PC ! My original stopped working, so I used debug.com to see what was going on. I traced it back to a certain zone it was loaded (and it was overwritting INT 3 I think, and JMP on the INT table at the palce where INT 3 was which was a simple JMP there too back to the program, in a vain attempt to break down any attempt to debug. HAHA.). This zone was simply XOR'd with a number which was added a 3 after each byte. Once decoded this was a special INT 13 which was tested for a value. A CMP with a JNE somewhere to exit the program. First step was to calculate the offset, get the number it was XOR'd against, then transform those into 3 NOP XOR'd, go into the oringinal ULTIMA.COM and replace the original byte with the XOR'd NOP. And thus I could continue to play AFTER my original stopped working. I loved such protection scheme, and I asked the other kids to give me their game, and I would crack them. I would not really care for the game, just for the THRILL and adrenaline of finding out how it was done , and beat it. Later on, when i was older, I just copied the manual/decoder ring. Bah.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  82. Locksmith! by RandySC · · Score: 1

    I remember Locksmith on the Apple ][+. I used to get a magazine that I think was called Nibble.

    --
    Organization: alphabetical, sometimes numerical or messy
    1. Re:Locksmith! by dkalley · · Score: 1

      Better yet, Hardcore Computing (Hardcore, Computist, or whatever other name it went under) for the Apple II was great cracking magazine. I remember another book/magazine for the commodore that was pretty good and had a few volumes was Kracker Jax. Good stuff, the reason I learned assembler for the 6502 and 68000 series.

      It was really cool how easy it was to defeat Mac copy protection with some NOPs and Branches after seeing some insane Apple II and C=64 schemes.

    2. Re:Locksmith! by mannd · · Score: 1

      I loved playing around with Locksmith. I remember a real sense of accomplishment when I copied Wizardry successfully. The trick back then was direct control of the disk drive mechanism by the computer, resulting in half-tracks, spiral-tracks, changes in speed, etc. Copying those disks was as much an art as a science.

      --
      Sig expected Real Soon Now.
  83. Batch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make a Batch , pipe date, time in a variable, Save date Set to a fix date , start software, and after the end, batch check time and use saved date back (or date+1). Works really fine. You only needed to do it once, and could use with many software. Nowadays soft are a bit more clever than check the date.

    1. Re:Batch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a little more complex than just checking the date. Of course, I'm not going to describe the details. If somebody is going to that trouble, what are we going to do to get them to pay? Assuredly, anything we could come up with is just going to get in the way of honest users. It's not even on the radar. You've clearly already decided that you aren't going to buy.

      But how do you know you've caught everything? How do you know your pirate copy isn't making subtle "errors?" Hmm.

  84. Railroad Tycoon 1 by Deadfyre_Deadsoul · · Score: 1

    RR Tycoon 1 had some of the best copy protection for back in the day. You got a book with 40 or so train engine types which were used in the game. After so many turns, the game would ask you the name of the engine it popped up. If you got it right you could continue, or if you didnt get it right, you were limited to 2 trains the rest of the match. It meant for you to keep that instruction book in good condition and not lost....

    --
    ~DF
  85. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That's a short-term argument. If people get your product for free, they have an economic advantage over the honest people who pay even just the reasonable price. In the long run this continuously lowers what is considered a reasonable price to the point where the price reflects just the advantage of buying over copying. While pirates have had entertainment at their fingertips and on their MP3-players for more than a decade now, honest people still need to jump through DRM hoops for some entertainment. That's a negative buying advantage! The conundrum is that not using DRM would probably not have changed the situation much, because people still would not be able to afford filling up their iPods legally. So what? If they can't afford it, then the iPod is not going to be full, right? No. The fact that people can and do get the product for free skews the price, because the honest people don't want to be left behind the "thieves." After all, the reasonable price for a product in unlimited supply is zero. The only marketable good here is the convenience of getting a file through legal channels, but that can't cover the cost of creating the products in the first place.

  86. I've never understood it by ledow · · Score: 1

    I've never understood copy protection at all. I certainly don't understand mediocre copy protection, i.e. "master" floppies that can be copied with Rawwrite before you use them for the first time, "type in this from the manual" types, CD-checks that could be bypassed with virtual images (even as far back as the DOS days with a suitable TSR), or anything that could be disassembled and changed within about five minutes. It makes the company think they are professional when in fact it just shows them up, and embarasses and annoys their customers.

    Proper copy protections are normally highly-complex dongles etc. but they are completely over the top for most software and every time I've bothered to look, I've never had a problem finding a crack. I've installed high-end CAD programs that need such dongle but they were still a royal pain in the bum. If I'd have had more PC's to install them on, I would have found a way around it for convenience.

    Even today, some modern educational software still uses stupid primitive tricks - I had to copy a master install floppy only the other day and, because most of the computers don't even HAVE a floppy anymore, automate the install process by emulating a floppy drive from the image. The program even went as far as double-checking that the floppy was writable etc. and the "copy protection" was to slightly change the wording of the license.txt on the floppy! If it was written a certain way it was "already installed somewhere", if it was written the original way it was "installable"! And you have to use the same floppy to uninstall it. Fortunately, my healthy skepticism of copy-protection methods forced me to make a raw image of the disk before it had touched any other machine.

    Another one required per-PC serial numbers to be faxed/emailed to the company, which would fax/email an activation code back. For a network of PC's. With NO way to do the entire network, or to use one program on all PC's. Another (fairly famous) piece of software wouldn't let you image computers once it was activated because the program would just deactivate, even with an "educational site license". Stuff that.

    I complained no end of times to the companies, who have absolutely no idea how modern network deployments work, but they refused to help except to keep sending stupid codes or floppies that did exactly the same thing. So in the end, I used my own method. It's part of being a network admin, sometimes, you have to find ways around stupid programming, whether it's hard-coded paths, stupid permissioning, or poor copy protection. Needless to say that we've stayed within the licensing terms at all times but guess which software we're not going to upgrade/buy ever again?

    One of my personal pride-and-joy moments when I was younger was removing the CD-check from a copy of Desert Strike / Jungle strike. It was fantastically exciting to have the knowledge to do that, which I did by tracing assembly instructions by manually decoding the machine code, and a copy of Ralf Brown's Interrupt List. I never distributed it (no doubt a million other people did the same much earlier) but I've kept the instructions/cracked EXE even until today. It was a simple crack, nothing more than a check to make sure a certain drive was a CD drive provided by MSCDEX or similar, but for the time, I was very chuffed at having done it without any help. I played that game a lot more when I didn't have to keep inserting the stupid CD for all of 5Mb of data, and swapping it to play the other game.

    Worms Plus was particularly easy, IIRC, because you could just emulate a CD. I had a DOS utility (forgotten the name now) that let you specify a folder and it would make a "virtual CD" appear with that folder on it. It worked for an awful lot of games, and still worked under the early versions of Windows.

    Even as far back as the Spectrum, just about any game was copyable if you had a decent tape player and at worst, you had to type in a short BASIC listing or use a copy utility to copy just

  87. Serial copy protection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And then, there's the interesting case of Stardock, makers of strategy titles Galactic Civilizations II and Sins of a Solar Empire. Stardock has taken the bold stance that it does not plan to take any steps beyond the use of a unique serial number to copy-protect its products, a decision that has endeared it to fans but that famously led a StarForce forum moderator's posting of a link to a site where an illegal copy of Galactic Civilizations II could be easily downloaded. The game has sold well despite its lack of defense against piracy, but one has to wonder whether such a strategy would work for a larger publisher producing more mainstream titles. Seems to work fine for id, an invalid CD key means no multiplayer over the internet.
  88. Why copy protection by Dark+Lord+Azagthoth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In the UK, there was a software company who employed no copy protection at all. The games released by this company were sold for just 9,95 euro. This company sold many games until it sold itself to a big software company. That was also the end of no-copy protected games by that company. The new games released were again sold at the price between 49,95 and 59,95 euro (these are the average starting prices of games sold in the Netherlands). If these companies would just stop investing so much money is protection and try to lessen the price of games (and other software products) then he sales would go up, and the "il"legal downloads would go down.

    --
    Dark Lord Azagthoth
    1. Re:Why copy protection by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Can we get some sources?

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  89. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by professionalfurryele · · Score: 1

    I wont buy from Ambrosia Software. Don't get me wrong, I like them, I think that they are good guys, but their copy protection scheme all but guarantees that when they go out of business you are completely screwed. Couple this with a crazy high price point for any of the old games I'm interested in and I just have no interest. If you told me that EV Nova could be bought for $10 with no copy protection they would have themselves a sale (I've played the demo and it looks very cool).
    However I know that they have in the past had a hard time making a profit and if they go under I have no guarantee that anything I purchase will work any more.

  90. MS Copy Protection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Back in the day, MS DOS was easy to copy, and easy to make duplicates of the boot floppy etc. Easier to find copies of MS DOS than trying to buy DR DOS out here in NZ.
    Then came Windows 3.1, again easy to copy, even when OEMs used codes on the CD's as the system never checked for duplicates.
    Piracy didn't seem to kill of these OS's at all. It just meant that everyone had a copy and could install it, and write software for it.
    Now it's so hard to get vista working and Genuine (dis)Advantage was such a hassle (even though I had legit media and keys) I've ditched it and gone with Linux. Never looked back, and haven't actually visited a wares site in years 8)
    If I'm just using the software at home, it's not making me any money so is not worth me spending hundreds of dollars on it. No company is loosing a sale because of it as I wouldn't buy it anyway. However at work, the systems do generate revenue. All the software is licensed (holy shit - $60K for MSCMS/Sharepoint - eeek!)
    .

  91. DRM - in 20 years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DRM really isn't such a problem for steam etc at the moment - but what happens if valve fold, and whoever owns the license doesn't maintain the DRM servers for people to log in to? I still play games that are 20 years old, will valve be hosting DRM servers in 20 years? Are we so controlled by corporations that they will decide what we play, and when? Unfortunately the answer would appear to be yes...

  92. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    ...and completely without copy protection. I can honestly say that I have only gotten cracks for games I already own a full license to, but I would have never needed to if the games hadn't been virtually padlocked with a faulty key.

    Goddamned right! The most pissing copy protection I ever saw was many years back in a Chuck Yeager airplane game. Every time you loaded the game, they played some bullshit scenario where you had to go to the fairly large "training manual" aka the user manual and hunt down the answer to some dumbshit question like, "what is the maximum thrust for the plane you are flying?" The next time, it might be "Will this plane survive a 10G pullout?"

    Total horseshit. Yeah, I could have run it through an editor, written down all the questions, then listed all the answers, but it wasn't worth all that much trouble.

  93. Make them all online by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

    Give you game away for FREE and charge 1$/month for your game for server access fees. Pratically every game should be multiplayer by now, shouldn't it?

    Well, except Zelda. And Metroid. And... well, ok, not all games should be multiplayer after all.

    If Blizzard thinks they're raking in the dough now, imagine if you could get WoW for free (with all expansions packs free too) and they only charged 1$/month.

    Nobody would ever think "I'll cancel my subscription because it costs too much".

  94. It's useless by Metasquares · · Score: 1

    I'm sure someone has said it on this thread already, but it's worth repeating: copy protection is useless.

    Let's assume there are two types of users: pirates and customers.

    Pirates are going to crack their software to get around the scheme, so once a crack is out, game over - the copy protection is now useless at deterring them.

    Customers will either tolerate the restrictions the scheme imposes or crack their legitimate copies to get around the copy protection. The company does not derive any benefit from customers vs. having no protection at all, since they paid for the software anyway. In fact, they're harmed by the decision to use copy protection, because the group of customers that goes looking for a crack will realize that if they're going to need to use a cracked copy anyway, there's no reason for them to pay for the software in the first place.

    To summarize, it does next to nothing against the pirates, while harming the legitimate consumers and possibly turning several of them towards future piracy. The only legitimate purpose it may serve is deterring casual piracy, but there's nothing stopping these people from cracking the protection either.

  95. And sometimes they're just silly by Toad-san · · Score: 1

    Many many years ago a major US company (who should've known better) tried to sell us a copy protection scheme for our new software product. It used fancy 5.25" disk writers (yeah, that dates me) to write a very special sector .. one with a pattern that could NOT be written by a standard floppy drive.

    All we had to do was encode a simple test (they gave code samples) in our program (or a loader), to test that specific track and sector. If it failed, it was an original. If it read, it wasn't.

    It took me about 15 minutes to write a little hack (assembly language of course) that hooked into the BIOS's disk read routines. If someone accessed that specific track and sector, it would always return a disk error. Bidda boom bidda bing.

    I sent the source code and a sample loader (175 bytes long as I recall, TSR loader and all) back to the company, suggesting they should perhaps reconsider their product design.

    Never heard from them again. Silly rabbits.

  96. StarTropics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The find-words-on-certain-page-in-the-manual form of copy protection is just a minor hindrance for computer games...but there was even a NES game that had this. At a point maybe 30%-50% through the game StarTropics, you're asked for a 3 digit code from the manual (to activate the submarine, iirc). Well I discovered this years ago when I rented it from a video store. Of course the rental didn't include the manual, so anyone who actually got that far in the game within the rental period was stuck. This was back before the web, so you couldn't just do a quick web search; no, you were really truly stuck, not even hints magazines would have that code. Years later I found the code...007.

    1. Re:StarTropics by Pluvius · · Score: 1

      747. Any kid would've found it really quickly if it was 007.

      The silliest thing about that code is that if you rented the game, you were probably fucked. In fact, I'd say the code was there more to force people to buy the game than for copy protection. Thank God that sort of thing didn't catch on, though it's been done at least once since (Metal Gear Solid).

      Rob

  97. Re:Businesses should only pander to their customer by mcvos · · Score: 1

    Yes, but, ... In an environment of unlimited tolerance of piracy why buy? Why become a "customer" when being a pirate offers 100% (or sometimes 110%) of the benefits? Piracy only offers more benefits when a legitimate copy uses invasive copy protection. The GP's point is exactly that of Brad Wardell, CEO of Stardock, publisher of Galactic Civilizations and Sins of a Solar Empire, both of which were released with hardly any copy protection at all, for exactly this reason.

    The benefit for legitimate buyers is easier access to patches; if you register your game with a legitimate key (which you can do on as many machines as you like), you can use a simple tool to automatically download the latest patch and lots of new features. With a pirated version you need to get each patch by hand. It's not much, but it does give the legitimate customer more value than the pirate.

    Ofcourse it's also important to continue supporting your game. As soon as you stop releasing patches, new features and new content, the pirates catch up and the automatic update becomes useless.
  98. Just log serial numbers and that's enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just do an only validation of a serial #, and allow its use one time only. Legit customers can install with their legit serial, while the pirates will resort to using pirated software.

    You can't force a pirate to buy something they don't want to. You just can't.

  99. Here's the weird thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're telling the GP that while they aren't making much money, they won't lose anything to piracy. But when he makes more money, there's going to be pirates taking it.

    You're forgetting: they are still making MORE money than they did.

    So why cry that you're making 10x as much when 100x as many people are using it?

  100. And the Latest Technique by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    As far as software is concerned, one of the effective techniques of copy protection is bloat. Want a copy? Get a new hard disk and CPU upgrade. So buy a new computer with bundled software.

    What I'm doing on my 2 Gb computer with dual core is marginally more featuresome than what I did with my 4 Mb 486. Sure, I do more in less time, but not really more complicated, most of the time, aside from games and media playback. However, task manager tells me I need 200 Mb of RAM to write code. It seems I don't have enough disk space left now to run the next edition of the development environment.

    As hardware prices come down, bundled software is more economical to pay for in a new-computer purchase. So, software makers using this technique of "copy protection" do profit, though there wouldn't be any protection on a downgrade version.

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
  101. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd say the ultimate copy protection would be an awful, expensive product. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be working for the music industry... Or Microsoft.
  102. AD&D 2e Computer Game Protection by solidex · · Score: 1

    Don't know if anyone posted this, but I recall the gold box collection of Forgotten Realms games back in the day (it had Secret of the Silver Blade, Curse of the Azure Bonds, and one other I can't recall) that I had bought used at a computer show.

    But Azure Bonds and the other had a paper decoder ring that had you a series of different runes on the top ring and their equivalent in English. Seemed pretty kewl and added to the atmosphere of the game (though it could have gotten tedious, but I wouldn't know as I was 10 at the time and those games were fricken difficult).

    The best was Secret of the Silver Blade, where it would have you look up a word on X page, paragraph X, line X. Of course, it would always ask me to goto a page that wasn't in the book, so I never really got to play the game. But I doubt it would've been a different experience.

    Damn those games were hard.

    --
    Clever and witty sig.
  103. Re:The ultimate copy protection: by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    Ask Stardock. They sold lots of extra copies because they advertised no copy protection. I have a copy myself. :)

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.