Boy Scouts Ask Open Source Community For Help

Lucas123 writes "The Boy Scouts of America are looking to the open-source community for help in building software to use for fundraisers, special events, and other functions, for their more than 121,000 local scout troops. Some open source advocates, who are former Boy Scouts, support the idea, despite a few reservations. According to the article, there are no plans for a scout merit badge in open source — but there has been a merit badge in computers since 1967, 'and it is possible that if the program is successful, it could eventually be used by IT-savvy scouts themselves.'"

Comments

BSA

[dameron]

I thought they hated open source.

Re:BSA

[larry bagina]

So, they don't hate Open Source (tm), they just hate Open Source (tm) advocates.

Re:BSA

[Curien]

I was an atheist boy scout, and I used to get into discussions with the troop leaders about religion on a regular basis. They never made me feel uncomfortable or like I didn't belong.

Re:BSA

[sconeu]

Congrats to everyone who responded to this thread. That whizzing noise you heard was the joke going over your head.

Parent was a joke based on the fact that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) and the Business Software Alliance (BSA) have the same three-letter abbreviation.

Parent was referring to the second BSA (the MS mouthpieces).

Re:BSA

[Anonymous Coward]

nah, he just didn't grow up in the bible belt

Re:BSA

[Applekid]

Nah, they just hate gays and atheists//agnostics. So, when it comes to instilling values and giving youths something to do, no gays nor atheists nor agnostics. When it comes to getting help from the open source community all of a sudden the help from those who are gay and/or atheist or agnostic is perfectly welcome for giving them some free (as in beer) stuff?

Tell them to go shove it and write their own God-fearing straight-male software.

Re:BSA

[fwarren]

I take it you did go out of your way to make waves.

I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems.

I think for the most part when you are "different" from a group of people and you elect to be involved with them. That you will be accepted as long as you try to fit in and look for common ground. As opposed to stressing how you are different and they should change who they are, what they have always done, and what they believe so as to make you happy.

Re:BSA

[tonyreadsnews]

Actually if you click on the little parent button on the comment you just responded to, you will see that the title is BSA and the text is "I thought they hated open source."

I know you're not new here, but parent != summary...

Re:BSA

[gcalvin]

Just curious... did you say the Scout Oath? Leave out the "do my duty to God" part?

Supposing there was an organization that required its members to take an oath including "duty to the Pink Spaghetti Monster" but didn't specify what that duty was (left that to the judgment of the members), I suppose I wouldn't have a problem taking the oath if I liked the organization otherwise. I do believe in God, and I support the BSA and the oath, and I would allow self-described atheists, but I would want them to recite the same oath as everybody else.

Re:BSA

[Jor-Al]

You can also choose not to say the pledge. That was decided by the Supreme Court decades ago.

Re:BSA

[nawcom]

Wow. My troop leader "highly suggested" that I quit Boy Scouts when I mentioned that there is no god. Later I was kicked out since I didn't want to quit, and I didn't fully understand how direct his suggestion was.

Re:BSA

[_KiTA_]

I take it you did go out of your way to make waves.

I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems.

I think for the most part when you are "different" from a group of people and you elect to be involved with them. That you will be accepted as long as you try to fit in and look for common ground. As opposed to stressing how you are different and they should change who they are, what they have always done, and what they believe so as to make you happy.

No, all you have to say is "I am Gay" or "I am an Athiest" and the BSA national organization will say "Hope you enjoy Hell, you're no longer allowed to be a troop leader, buh bye!"

It's not "making waves" or "trying to enforce your beliefs on other people" (as if you could teach someone to be gay, jesus) -- the BSA's stance is that merely being gay or non-Christian means you are not fit to lead children.

They were taken to court and, quite rightly, had their rights to discriminate as a private organization upheld. So oh well, screw the bigots.

Pity there's no alternatives to the BSA. Maybe some enterprising geeks could start one up, dedicated to environmentalism, conservation, science, and other mildly geeky stuff in addition to the BSA. Like the "Mr. Wizard Brigade" or something.

Re:BSA

[ttfkam]

Except that BSA policy is to either have an atheist swear falsely to a belief in a deity or drop them for being honest.

"Any organization could profit from a 10-year-old member with enough strength of character to refuse to swear falsely." Editorial, New York Times, 1993-DEC-12, commenting on the Boy Scouts' exclusion of a young Atheist.

There is a difference between proselytizing to convert other scouts to atheism and simply affirming that one is an atheist. Unfortunately the BSA sees no such distinction.

A Christian scout who steals, cheats, or fights will be given counseling, and an effort will be made to keep him in the fold provided he poses no imminent threat to others. An atheist scout who lives an exemplary life will be rejected unless he lies about his beliefs. How is this a moral example for young people?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/

Re:BSA

[geminidomino]

They were taken to court and, quite rightly, had their rights to discriminate as a private organization upheld. So oh well, screw the bigots. Not so rightly as that. They're a private organization that receives federal funding...

Re:BSA

[thephotoman]

And this is why I will not support them.

Simply put, the group got taken over by the Kentucky Fried Christians, and ever since that time, I've been rather ashamed of the organization. There's also the major problem of the fear of litigation getting in the way of the things that were fun/educational/awesome/whatever. We'll not mention the asinine paperwork that just doesn't need to exist.

That said, I do still keep my Eagle Scout card in my wallet after all these years.

Re:BSA

[s4m7]

[...]quite rightly, had their rights to discriminate as a private organization upheld.

Point of order on "quite rightly." See, that would be true if they were a private organization that did not accept federal grants. The government requires grant recipients not to discriminate.

Re:BSA

[Chelloveck]

I was an atheist boy scout, and I used to get into discussions with the troop leaders about religion on a regular basis. They never made me feel uncomfortable or like I didn't belong.

My experience matches yours. I went all the way from Cub Scouts to earning Eagle while being an atheist. I was never made to feel out of place. It all depends on the local organization. I was lucky enough to be in a troop led by some pretty open-minded people.

My younger son is in Cub Scouts right now; in fact, I'm his den leader. His pack is a little more uptight than mine was as a kid, but that's mostly because of one leader who wants things run absolutely by the book. None of the rest of the leaders particularly care. I don't even think the uptight leader really cares, personally, except that's what the book says.

The way I got through Scouts, and the way that I'm working with my son to get through it, is to stretch the definition of "faith in god" to something a bit more naturalistic. Appreciation of the world around us, belief in a moral center of "good" versus "bad", respect for others. I'm comfortable that we're following the spirit of the faith requirements, even if it's not exactly what the BSA had in mind.

So yeah, I wish the Boy Scouts weren't so anti-atheist and homophobic. Despite that, I still think it's a good program for kids, provided you can find a pack or troop that doesn't obsess over such matters.

Re:BSA

[fm6]

As an AC has already mentioned, your troop leaders were breaking the rules. I sure there are a lot of people involved in Scouting who are like that. Indeed, tolerance and respect for unusual opinions and orientations would seem to be consistent with the whole Scouting ethos.

But officially speaking the rule is no gays or atheists. And as long as that's the rule, a lot of us are just not going to have anything to do with the BSA, no matter how tolerant some of its individual participants are.

Re:BSA

[IllForgetMyNickSoonA]

You're beliefs are all fine with me. You're entitled to believe whatever you like.

One thing, however, I must point out. There is a WORLD of difference between a "Flying Spaghetti Monster" on the one side, which is an imaginary creature thought out to produce some laughs, and a "god" on the other, which is an imaginary creature in whose name bloody wars were fought (and are still being fought), which is promoted by a notoriously rich, completely un-democratic, organization practicing brain wash to small children, often enough actively hiding child molesters in their rows, and repeatedly pointing out how their way is the ONLY way and all the stupid rest of the world is going to burn in hell because... well, because they chose NOT to believe in the same imaginary "big-guy-in-the-sky". Or, what amuses me the most, does choose to believe in the same god, but in a slightly different way.

You see, whether you like it or not, by taking an oath proscribed by that organization (church) one actually implicitly expresses ones support for that organization. No, I really don't see how commiting to "do ones duty to god" is the same as "do ones duty to FSM".

Besides, labeling atheists as "self-described", just to put us down, is not very nice or tolerant of you. Atheists are just people who chose to think differently than you. We're not some evil-doers who should be forced to "recite the same oath as everybody else" if we don't want to, just to become boy scouts.

It always amused me how many US citizens wholeheartedly hate the very notion of Communism as a totalitarian regime, while on the other hand openly endorsing the religion, which is per definitionem a totalitarian regime.

Re:BSA

[IllForgetMyNickSoonA]

Personally, I find grown up people who choose to spend their time in the woods with small boys kind of suspect anyway... :-)

Re:BSA

[TheMCP]

The lawsuit wasn't claiming that as a private organization they didn't have the right to discriminate.

The lawsuit claimed that as they take tax dollars to run their organization, they are not a private organization.

Discrimination in the boy scouts: your tax dollars at work.

Re:BSA

[Anonymous Coward]

I can personally vouch for this. When it came time for my cub scout troop to do the 'religion' merit badge. I was forced to pick a religion- they were not satisfied with me quietly being an agnostic. And if you admit to being gay, you can pretty much forget about it.

I guess it really depends on the troop for how bad things are with it, but I honestly think the BSA is more bad than good.

Re:BSA

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that BSA policy is to either have an atheist swear falsely to a belief in a deity or drop them for being honest. I think the trick is for an atheist to avoid knowingly joining a theistic organization in the first place. You see, im a Christian and i dont join atheistic organizations and belly-ache about them not believing in God. Its really quite simple. You DO have a choice (in case nobody told you).

Re:BSA

[rho]

Eh. The older Scouts and adults often end up getting involved with Order of the Arrow, which is by any definition heathenism. You participate in Indian dances, often working with local tribes to learn them. The whole thing is drenched in Indian symbolism and liturgy. I'm not even sure you could consider it monotheism, though it is theistic to some degree. I infer that you think the organization is fundamentalist, but I hope I've demonstrated that it's hardly that simple.

Part of the issue with the article you linked is that the Scouting organization is highly decentralized. Local councils and even troops are pretty autonomous. I know that he wouldn't have been hassled in our local troops, and we're in the middle of the Bible Belt, so it's not fair to tar the entire organization on that one case. The national office will support the council's decision, but they wouldn't interfere if the council ignored it.

Re:BSA

[Niten]

I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems.

That's a real straw man. With rare exception, atheists and gays are not out to change people's private beliefs and practices. What they do want is to establish equal rights and standing for themselves in the public sphere, and that is a goal we should all be able to stand behind.

It's rather predictable that people would confound a strong stance on atheist/gay rights with rabble-rousing and crass noisemaking, though; after all, that's precisely the same reaction with which all manner of civil rights activists have been received in the past, be they slavery abolitionists, or women's suffragists, or anti-segregationists.

So you're probably correct that the parent poster got by in the BSA without incident by not making noise such as, e.g., refusing to recite the Boy Scouts pledge which commits one to a religious deity. And that's the problem. Until gays and atheists can proclaim themselves as openly as Christians and straights do in any public or semi-public organization, and not be required to pay lip service or deference to the Judeo-Christian worldview -- without being kicked out, or frowned upon, or generally treated as second-class citizens -- then our work is not yet done.

(Fortunately for the parent poster, his local scoutmasters were apparently more tolerant than the national organization: discrimination against gays and atheists is still very much the official policy within the organization.)

Re:BSA

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

A Christian scout who steals, cheats, or fights will be given counseling, and an effort will be made to keep him in the fold provided he poses no imminent threat to others. An atheist scout who lives an exemplary life will be rejected unless he lies about his beliefs. How is this a moral example for young people?

It shows that a lying psychopath will get a lot farther in life than an honest paragon. And that's one of the most important lessons in morality you can receive nowadays.

Re:BSA

[Anonymous Coward]

I can personally vouch for this. When it came time for my cub scout troop to do the 'religion' merit badge. I was forced to pick a religion- they were not satisfied with me quietly being an agnostic. And if you admit to being gay, you can pretty much forget about it.

I guess it really depends on the troop for how bad things are with it, but I honestly think the BSA is more bad than good. I can personally vouch for being abducted by space aliens, but that doesn't make it true.

In BSA, Cub Scouts don't get merit badges. Furthermore, there is no 'Religion' merit badge nor any merit badge with religious content anyway. And if you're talking about some scouting organization other than the BSA, you should have mentioned it, and it would be fairly offtopic anyway.

Re:BSA

[johnthediver]

"It's not "making waves" or "trying to enforce your beliefs on other people" (as if you could teach someone to be gay, jesus) -- the BSA's stance is that merely being gay or non-Christian means you are not fit to lead children." BSA is not a Christian organization they are a deist organization, they believe you have to have a religious foundation, they are not picky about that foundation. We have a local buddhist group of the BSA. As well as a number of Jewish, and an islamic boy in my son's troop. We have a lot of discussion in the troop (our family is catholic(wife)/agnostic(me)) Not about Christianity but about tolerance and the differences in how we worship. Although I still have bad feelingsa bout the gay scout leader thing, although you can also be a gay scout, nothing in the rules about that.

Re:BSA

[Gibbs-Duhem]

Agreed. I also did the Eagle Scout and Vigil Honor thing, and although I turned them down because of my own moral objections to participating in an anti-LGBT activity, I was encouraged to help out with the local scouting organizations despite my sexuality. As in, "they have bigger things to worry about" kind of acceptance.

Re:BSA

[Savior_on_a_Stick]

They're outsourcing intolerance. Since the government can't officially demonize gays or atheists, they do so by proxy. It's hard to get funding pulled from a Mom and Apple Pie organization. Would I want to? I dunno. I was in Scouts when I was a preteen. Can't say I learned much from it other than that other people's houses smelled funny. OTOH, I was never touched by a Scoutmaster, nor did I have fundie nonsense shoved at me. It was, after all, Teh Seventies, where no one really took any stance seriously other than nihilism.

Re:BSA

[coaxial]

As a matter of fact, the BSA isn't against non-Christians. Quite the contrary. The BSA encourages people of all faiths to participate and earn appropriate badges. The BSA, is just anti-atheist.

Re:BSA

[ttfkam]

I think you missed the part where atheists had no problems to speak of in the Boy Scouts until about ten years ago. I'm an atheist, and I was in the Boy Scouts. So were many of my friends, also atheists and in the Scouts.

Being an Eagle Scout affords you certain advantages in getting into federal military academies, looks good on a resume, etc. People cite their scouting days in college applications to beneficial effect all the time.

Then the Mormon Church buys them out. Suddenly the organization doesn't just have religious overtones, it kicks kids out that have done nothing wrong aside from having different beliefs. Kids that bully others are talked to, put on probation, or otherwise given a second chance. An atheist kid is told to either lie about something so fundamental to each of us (yeah, great morals there) or get kicked out.

Let's be clear. We're not talking about someone trying to make the other kids into atheists. We're not talking about kids calling press conferences to get the BSA to change the scout oath. We're talking about an organization that changed under our feet and suddenly became a hostile entity.

Imagine you were black, had taken part in an organization that had white supremacy overtones, but everyone laughed it off, treated it like an unfortunate legacy. Imagine all of your experiences and your friendships were a shining moment in your life. Imagine you had taken part in fundraisers and paid dues to this organization.

Now imagine that one day the organization calls you a nigger and forces you out. Imagine the effort and time and money given to this organization, the fruits of your labor, are now forbidden to you and everyone like you.

Now imagine that someone on a random internet message board proclaims that the organization has that right since they always proclaimed white supremacy, but since they've also always received federal funds, your tax dollars continue to help fund the organization that's turned its back on you and everyone else like you.

But I guess that's just belly-aching, isn't it?

You can't hide being black, but you can lie about being an atheist. For a 10 year-old, to stand up and be honest about your beliefs is true strength, no matter what that faith may be. It's far easier to just go with the flow and "blend in."

For the organization, however, the moral issues are the same. Forbidding access to some for who they are rather than what they do is clearly morally reprehensible.

Re:BSA

[mweather]

You're technically right. It's not a merit badge, it's a religious emblem and/or a knot insignia. It's not required, but it does satisfy requirements to advance in rank. So it's not a merit badge, it's much flashier (being amedal/pin) and serves the same damn purpose.

Re:BSA

[Anonymous Coward]

if you want BSA to have a more lenient stance toward homosexuality and atheism, work to push the LDS church's influence in BSA back or even out.

'cause the Mormons rule the day inside BSA.

The LDS church has threatened to pull all of their youth out if BSA changes its stance on homosexuality and atheism. I say "let them". Call the bluff.

Re:BSA

[DrgnDancer]

There is an alternative, Sprial Scouts. I'm not saying it's a great alternative, they're a small organization with a fairly limited number of troops at local levels, but they are an alternative. It was founded as kind of a Wiccan/Pagan alternative to BS and GS, but they are explicitly unbiased on any points of religion, race, sex, or sexuality.

My understanding is that they're a fairly crunchy granola sort of organization (makes sense, given their origins), but the few people I've known who worked with them (all online friends) said the national organization was nice to work with and helped as much as possible. YMMV, and I've never personally been involved with them in any way.

Re:BSA

[frosty_tsm]

I know that my former troop lost use of the school facility they met at for decades. They now meet at a nearby church.

While the higher-up organization might make stands on certain issues, it did not reflect my experience. The previous Scout Leader was an Atheist. (No, he wasn't forced out. Leadership changes periodically, that's all.)

Re:BSA

[strabes]

They're a private organization that receives federal funding... That's the problem here. The problem isn't that they're discriminating (since they're a private organization). The real problem is that the government is giving a private organization money. This always causes trouble because then people have to battle over what the "private" organization can and cannot do. The best thing would be if the government would simply not use taxpayer money to fund things outside of its jurisdiction/role.

Re:BSA

[fm6]

Well, as the proverbial card-carrying ACLU member, I certainly support the BSA getting that berth — at a market rate. I'd say the same for any group, including that perennial ACLU client, the American Nazi party.

Oops, I just compared the BSA to the Nazis, didn't I? Godwin strikes again!

Re:BSA

[2short]

So imagine rather than the Scouts, it's some organization you think are a-holes. Microsoft, perhaps. Now, imagine this organization comes to a group you are part of, and says, "Hey, we'd like some free help, because we're this organization you know is so nice". Would you really be unable to believe vitriol being spent on them?

It's not that BSA gets federal money, it's not that anyone isn't free to join them or not. It's that they are asking for free help. At which point it is perfectly reasonable for people to say, "hey, before you help them out, note: they are assholes."

Re:BSA

[stefanlasiewski]

I was uh, merely quoting what I read on the Wikipedia page.

Re:BSA

[corson87]

I agree completely. Coming from a broken household, the only place i had a sense of stability and trust was at Boy Scouts. I'm an eagle scout, and have been an agnostic for about 90% of my life, and one of the main reasons ive chosen my path is specifically because of what i was taught in boy scouts. For all of the people out there who want to assume they know what the boy scouts are or what they do, take some time to actually talk to one instead. The boy scouts ive met in my life are as a majority accepting, helpful, conscientious, and true people. as a scout i was taught to worship. i was never taught to worship a christian or any other god, and was taught that KNOWLEDGE and learning were concepts to build a life upon. boy scouts taught me self sufficiency, the power of knowledge, and the importance of humility.

Re:BSA

[TerranFury]

Dude, you need to stop hating people just because they believe in God. It's fucking irrelevant 99% of the time.

You hate religious people because they're intolerant? Well, here's irony: So are you!

Don't you realize that all you're perpetrating is cultural bigotry? Whether you practice a religion (and if you do, which one you practice) is almost entirely determined by the culture you were born into -- the place on the map, the socioeconomic group, the particular family. Congratulations, you're an atheist: Don't you realize how much of that is simply because of your education level -- which in turn is strongly determined by the income level of your parents when you were growing up? I know it's nice to feel superior to everybody else, but right now you're being really goddamn caustic.

Most religious people -- and no, I don't count myself as one of them -- are just as good as you are. I've known about as many intelligent, open-minded and generally good people who ascribe strongly to a religion as those who don't. The religious ones all have one thing in common: They see their religion as a path for themselves, and not as something they need to assault their neighbors with.

As for the Scouts: There are two basic classes of problems that affect the organization. The first is that the people currently running the national office are a bunch of reactionaries. The second is that -- like all things -- Scouting is a product of its time, so, yes, it has some military and religious overtones. But had you actually been involved in Scouting -- at least in any reasonable troop -- you'd know that that simply wasn't the point. It was just completely fucking irrelevant. Do you think Boy Scouts is like church? If it is, it sure as hell isn't being done right.

And what's your solution? Boycott scouts? Sounds like a plan: Rather than taking a really fucking good idea -- "Let's provide a structured way for boys to learn practical life and outdoor skills, to gain independence and learn to lead themselves instead of being led by adult authority (Yes! Don't you realize how important a part of Scouting this is?)" -- and getting involved even though there's some politics involved that you don't like; let's dismiss the whole thing entirely! That sounds great! *rolls eyes*

And look: When GP used the phrase "so-called atheists," he wasn't mocking the idea that there is no god. No, I'm pretty sure he was just mocking people like you who think it matters that you don't believe in a god. Really, I don't care.

Debating the existence of God is a waste of everybody's time, because it's ill-defined. It's not true; it's not false; the closest I can come to an answer is mu. It doesn't fucking mean anything. So stop thinking you're special, some kind of oppressed minority, because you could afford enough education to develop an atheistic worldview.

And don't go fucking Godwin. Religion is by definition (nice Latin) a totalitarian regime? C'mon! There are a billion instances in history of religion being just the opposite. Do words and phrases like "mysticism" or "The Protestant Reformation" mean anything to you?

More generally, I'm sick and fucking tired of people who pretend to be educated and liberal and progressive acting like goddamned bigots. Get the hell over yourself and your prejudices. Most religious people are decent. Most people who don't believe in any religion at all are just as good. Most Boy Scouts are just kids learning skills that you were too lazy to learn, and they don't give a damn about your philosophical angst.

Basically, just stop thinking that narcissistic "liberal" bigotry is any different from reactionary conservative bigotry. And stop condemning anyone associated with something just because there's some politics involved that you don't like. The politics will change.

And then, after you sober up from your masturbatory navel-gazing, start thinking about how there are actually real problems in the world. Those are the things that real progressives want to solve.

Re:BSA

[Niten]

There wouldn't be a legal problem with any of this if, as you claim, the Boy Scouts of America were purely a private organization. But that's not the case. They seek out and accept public funding for many of their activities, and chapters have even gone so far as to sue the government when it decides to take the moral and legal high ground and stop subsidizing their exclusionary activities.

Now if the BSA were to stop accepting any public money for their activities, the legal problems would go away. Granted, a private organization that excludes homosexuals is still no less despicable than one which denies Jews or Blacks; I and others would continue to criticize them, in the same way that most people criticize, e.g., the KKK, while fully recognizing their right to express their own views. But the gross injustices to tax-paying atheists and gays are what must be addressed, and they can easily be addressed without interfering with the organization's "moral values".

Re:BSA

[jmac1492]

The current rendition of the Scout Oath includes a line about morally straight. I don't remember what the official original definition of this was when it was first introduced to the Oath, but it had made no reference to homosexuality at all. In fact, of the 26 definitions of "straight," only one of them refers to heterosexuality. Most of them deal with things being in an unadulterated state. One definition even aligns its self precisely with what the Scouts should stand for: "honest, honorable, or upright, as conduct, dealings, methods, or persons."

The 11th (current) edition of the Boy Scout Handbook defines morally straight as "To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful to your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance."

The BSA has no problem with gay Scouts. The problem it has with gay Scoutmasters is the same problem it has with female Scoutmasters: The possibility that you might be attracted to a Scout is enough to disqualify you from being a Scoutmaster. If you think that's too heavy-handed, that's another discussion, but "morally straight" is not meant to imply "sexually straight."

Re:BSA

[ttfkam]

Without lookup them up in Google...

Have you heard the following names? Ida B. Wells? Frederick Douglas? A. Philip Randolph? W. E. B. DuBois? Emmett Till?

Do you know their significance? Most people don't. They are the reason there's a Black Student Union.

Have you heard the following names? Caesar Chavez? Gregorio Cortez? Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz?

Do you know their significance? Most people don't. They are the reason there's a Latino Student Union.

Have you seen the movie "Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song" or "The Salt of the Earth?" Have you even heard of them?

The reason there is no White Student Union is because we all know who George Washington was. We all know who Napolean was. We all know Descartes, Lewis & Clark, Benjamin Franklin, Robert E. Lee, and Davy Crockett. We learned of them and their significance in high school during US History and World History and Government and English etc.

If you did not know at least half the names I listed earlier in the post, you are getting an inkling of why a Black/Latino Student Union is useful. If you know more than half of the last group, you will be getting why a White Student Union is not.

Susan B. Anthony, Ida B. Wells, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Anne Moody, etc. Know who they are? They are all examples of why a Woman's Student Union are needed.

Getting it now?

You are so firmly in a privileged position, you can't even visualize what it's like for others. You think your life is rough because you can't have a club like everyone else. THANK YOUR LUCKY STARS a White Student Union isn't necessary. A Student Union usually implies you are in an assailed position. If the only reason you want a White Student Union is so you and other white kids can hang out with each other and lick each other's wounded pride, that's a problem.

Go to the movie theater. Look at the movies listed. If the cast to a movie is more than 50% black, people usually consider it a "black movie." Ditto for latino. Ditto for east asian. However, take a movie like "Scream." Did you think that was a "white movie?" Of the movies out right now, how many have a non-white lead? One notable exception is the "Harold and Kumar" sequel: a movie all about being stereotyped based on ethnicity.

Hell, look here: http://www.apple.com/trailers/

Start counting the number of each group, men, women, black, white, latino, east asian, indian, etc. If you can't see a bias in our society for whites -- especially white males -- you are blind.

Re:BSA

[MBraynard]

They receive no federal funding.

What happens is that the Federal Government makes it really easy for employees to donate to charities of their choice by checking a box on their payroll forms each year. There are several hundred funding choices, including Catholic Charities, Muslim charities, and all kinds of private organizations.

Essentially, some congressman thought it would be nice to facilitate giving among the massive and federally bloated work force, but it is entirely the employees choice and is no different than them giving the money directly.

Re:BSA

[fm6]

While the higher-up organization might make stands on certain issues, it did not reflect my experience. The previous Scout Leader was an Atheist. The higher-ups don't merely "make stands", they make rules. And the rules say that no scout or scout leader can be an atheist or gay. The fact that nobody ratted on your atheist scout leader speaks well for the people in your troop, but if anybody had, he would have been shown the door.

Re:BSA

[fm6]

Let me guess, this was a United Church of Christ congregation? They've gone seriously anti-anti-gay. Many of them have actually stopped performing legal marriages, which I guess is a protest against the fact that same sex couples can't get married. If you want to get married in such a church, they will perform something called a Holy Union, which is available to both gay and straight couples, but which has no legal standing. If you want your marriage legalized, you have to provide your own official to sign the documents: the UCC pastor won't do it.

I'm neither gay nor a Christian. But I find that little bit of civil disobedience rather touching.

Re:BSA

[fm6]

Religious discrimination is illegal in many contexts (employment, retail sales) but there's no blanket ban. How would you enforce it? If my prejudice agains Presbyterians keeps me out of Walmart, whose to know?

In most jurisdictions, discriminating against somebody based on their sexual orientation is perfectly legal. You may think that's wrong (as do I) but being wrong doesn't make something illegal.

Re:BSA

[jafac]

Rules are only as good as the folks who enforce them.

As King John found out, any dictator of rules requires compliant enforcers. If you don't take care of your Barons, you find yourself having to sign a Magna Carta at swordpoint.

This is true in the BSA too. Individual councils and units can certainly ignore national rules. And it is trending such that, sooner or later, those national rules WILL change. (more likely, later, I'm guessing. . . )

No

[Anonymous Coward]

The Boy Scouts of America actively discriminate against atheists and homosexuals despite receiving government funding. They can fuck right off.

Re:No

[morgan_greywolf]

The Boy Scouts of America actively discriminate against non-Christians and homosexuals despite receiving government funding. They can fuck right off.

There fixed it for ya.

Re:No

[sconeu]

Really? Then how come the BSA has awards for Jewish members (the Ner Tamid award -- I won it back in '75), and my nephew just became an Eagle scout?

Re:No

[jedidiah]

It doesn't matter either way.

They are a youth organization with a charter from congress. They are an acknowledged
military youth auxilliary organization given access to government resources. They are
like a junior version of Sea Cadets or the CAP.

They should be held to at least the same tolerance standards as the Army.

Re:No

[hansamurai]

Perhaps you are confusing what your GP said, even though you wrote it in your own post. Geez, why do I even bother?

Re:No

[Crane Style]

The Boy Scouts of America actively discriminate against atheists and homosexuals despite receiving government funding. They can fuck right off.

Do you oppose all government funded groups that discriminate? There are a lot of atheist/agnostic and gay groups that receive both state and federal funding, do you oppose them as well? Or do you only oppose discrimination sometimes? If the latter is true, then I guess you'd be guilty of discrimination too, you hypocrite.

Re:No

[Hairy Heron]

The BSA isn't a government agency nor do they receive public monies, Sure they aren't a government agency but they very much do receive public money and government services. I'm not sure what rock you've been living under to not know about that.

Re:No

[MightyMartian]

Because all hell will break loose if you discriminate against Jews, but atheists and homosexuals are still open game for Christian bigots and the organizations they control.

Re:No

[LWATCDR]

You sure are.
1. and idiot,
2. a bigot.
3. just plain wrong.

I have a friend that was a Pack leader and then involved with Scouts for years. He is a kinda Buddist. They often help the meetings at the LDS church. He told me he always felt welcomed there. Most troops outside of Utah/Idaho and the rest of the Mountain west are not Mormon.

In Utah of course the majority of Scouts are Mormon if for no other reason most of the people are.

And yes I am a Mormon and I don't hate none Mormons. Not even people like you.

Re:No

[sm62704]

They can fuck right off.

Sorry, Mr. Blair, but you Brits aren't allowed in the Boy Scouts of America. Next time try not to be so British in your "anonymous" comment.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

mod this as troll

In becoming an eagle scout, they ask for your understanding of reverence, duty to god, etc.

You don't even have to subscribe to a particular religion, so long as you seem to grasp a notion that there is some underlying force that binds humanity as one (my words, not theirs). The concepts of helping others and self improvement are tied to this, and shows an awareness beyond thinking that "we're just a bunch of chemical arrangements that'll die off someday so what does anything matter, pardon while I start an emo band".

Re:No

[X-bubblehead]

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_emblems_programs_(Boy_Scouts_of_America) is a handy little link listing the various religious emblems boy scouts can earn. Note the vast array of Christian sects like Baha'i, Buddist, Hindu, Islam, Jewish and Zoroastrian.

Loose your bile all you want but at least make a tiny effort to be accurate with it.

Re:No

[Chanc_Gorkon]

The BSA is NOT a "acknowledged
military youth auxiliary organization". Here's what it is:

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

Now....for some, morals are the same as religion. To other's, they are not. Now, understand this....kids can be anything they want. If a Troop kicked you out because your gay, then they are WRONG. The rules specifically say you cannot be a leader. That is all! The only thing that IS SPECIFIC is this:

The Scout Oath

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Duty to God.....it doesn't say which God. You don't believe in God, then you can't join. Period.

However, you can be a gay Boy Scout....you just can't be a gay Boy Scout Leader.

Re:No

[Comboman]

I'm not sure if Wikipedia can compete with the Penn & Teller as a reference source, but here you go: BSA Units and Charted Organizations

Yes, more units are sponsored by LDS than any other single source, but it's hardly a majority. A lot are sponsored by other churches, businesses, Legions, PTAs, Lion's clubs, fire departments, etc.

yes, well...

[fyngyrz]

Absolutely, love to help 'em.

Just as soon as they lose the institutionalized homophobia and pandering to mythology.

Other than that, I think they're entirely deserving of assistance. And yes, I was a boy scout. :)

Of course, I recognize that as a private organization, they have the right to such stone age views; however, I also have the right to hold them accountable for them.

Re:yes, well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am/was an Eagle Scout and I couldn't agree more. Get rid of the discrimination against gays and atheists and I would be happy to support the organization. Until then, screw them. They already get to discriminate against people and get sweet heart deals on to host their meetings on public property.

Re:yes, well...

[fyngyrz]

Using the word "homophobia" in regard to a legal choice to beleive(sic) one's religion is HATE speech... Referring to religion as mythology is also HATE speech.

Nonsense. It's just accurate reporting. Religion is mythology. Stories. There are no facts whatsoever behind those stories in the important areas (specifically the existence of deities.) There is no more basis in reason for believing in a deity than there is for believing in the tooth fairy, unless you count peer pressure as a legitimate force for belief. Those stories remain in force because people are gullible, fearful, and uninformed in critical areas, and because there are legions of people around who prey on those who exhibit said vulnerabilities.

You appear to only recognize free speech as speech that agrees with you.

No, not at all. I recognize all kinds of speech, and encourage the use of it by all. That's the only way we can know which people take which positions. That in no way says I have to agree with the positions taken, and (this is the important part for you to study), it in no way obligates me to remain silent in the face of things I disagree with.

In this case, the BSA asked for help. I'm one of those who could help, and I'm also an alumnus. I'm declining, and I'm saying why I'm declining. If that upsets you, perhaps you should re-examine your core values. Or come up with a better argument than (cough) "hate speech", which is a crock.

Re:yes, well...

[demi]

Referring to religion as mythology is also HATE speech.

I doubt I've read a more desperate or idiotic ploy. Religion and mythology are the same thing. A non-believer such as yourself doesn't believe in the Greek myths and as such you term them "mythology", do you not? You might think your religion is special, and you have a right to, but until you also think Muslims and Buddhists and Zoroastrians and Neopagans are equally special, then how can you profess not to be an unbeliever--of their "mythology"--just as much as I?

Lumping people who don't believe in your particular brand of religion in with people who advocate the lynching of blacks or the extermination of gays (which is real "hate speech") is a ridiculous hyperbole that ensures anything you say need not be taken seriously, and especially skewers the supposed umbrage you take at the "intolerance" of people who disagree with you. It turns you into comic figure rather than a participant in a discussion.

Re:yes, well...

[wile_e_wonka]

Public funds may be used in the private sector. The government, for example, provides funding to churches (and yes, many of these churches also do not allow homosexuals in their chain of leadership and "pander" religion), whichout them suddenly becoming government entities.

Re:yes, well...

[0100010001010011]

When did all of this change? I honestly don't remember all this crap on either side when I was in it.

I was a Boyscout from '96 to '00. I went camping almost every month. I've been to Philmont. Boyscout camp every summer. I think I've learned more from that organization about live than anywhere else. I have a camp stove and fuel in my car. When I drove from LA to IN and IN to DC after graduation to 'see the country'. I would regularly eat pasta or any thing else I could cook up. (Get some eggs/bacon and have a proper breakfast instead of McDonalds).

I learned to blow things up properly. I can set up a tent in the dark (and now half drunk). I can build a fire using a single match and stuff I gathered. I know what bark to look for for starting fire after the rain. I can cook with cast iron (and at home I use nothing else). For competition we'd boil eggs in paper cups (paper won't burn below the water line). Carried sleds on years global warming made Klondikes suck. Snow shoe, canoe, swim, shoot, high rope climb, I could go on.

When I went to college I ran into some "city boys" that had no clue how to start a fire.

Their idea was gasoline (stupid, diesel is better) and a torch. I suppose it would have worked, but there's a finesse in starting fires with a single match, or a bow drill, or flint and steel. It's like doing in assembly what some people use Java for.

The only thing was our local troop met in the basement of a Methodist church.

I can't wait until I have sons so I can get back into scouting (if they're interested).

I suppose towards the end of my tenure we got a new Scoutmaster. No more fires over X size. We bought those Walmart popup rain flies instead of using the WWII ones that took 12 guys to setup. (And lasted 80 years longer than the walmart ones). Sort of killed it for me, plus all my friends were a year older and when they left not as entertaining. And the biggest thing that killed it was council 'from the top' decree that Camouflage was banned. How were you supposed to properly hide during capture the flag?

But nothing of gays and atheists.

Re:yes, well...

[fyngyrz]

The irony is, you're declining because they aren't "inclusive", and yet using wording that is also not "inclusive". So, you're free to say those things, but you are being illogical and hypocritical.

You're confusing irony (admittedly a difficult concept for many people) with liberty. They're free to refuse anyone they like, for any reason they like. I'm free to do the same. They are doing so. I am doing so. Nothing ironic about it at all.

What is confusing you is the deeply mistaken idea that I am somehow obligated to remain silent in the face of a request that I find problematic. I didn't ask them if I could help. They did the asking. That's my answer.

As for my being illogical and hypocritical, you'll have to make your case. Straight ad hominem won't do it.

Re:yes, well...

[bigstrat2003]

1. The Crusades. Took place in the 13th century.

2. The Spanish Inquisition. Took place in the 19th century.
3. Jewish Blood Libel. Not sure what you mean by this.
4. Forced Conversion of Conquered Peoples. And when, pray tell, was the last time this happened?
5. Abortion Clinic Bombings/Murders of Doctors. Please. This has no more bearing on Christianity as a whole than Muslim terrorists have on Islam as a whole. The actions of a few extremists do not condemn an entire group.

Sounds to me like you're the one without a sense of scale. The things you mentioned are either a) so far in the past, they're irrelevant to the character of today's Christians, or b) the actions of a small segment of the population. By your logic, Americans are all bad people because we have a few rapists and murderers.

Re:yes, well...

[fyngyrz]

"respecting" religion isn't important at all. Tolerating it on my part, you could perhaps make an argument for, but respecting... not likely. Respect needs to be earned. Tolerance (as long as other's liberties are not interfered with) is an obligation born of freedom.

There's quite a gulf between religion, which is largely made up of systems for trying to influence what people of dissimilar outlooks (religious and otherwise) think through the promotion of myths, as compared to healthy sexuality, which is consensual activity between informed individuals of already similar outlooks.

If you want to find unhealthy sexual outlooks, just look for the people promoting, writing, and enforcing laws against consensual, informed sexual behaviors. There's no easier way to find the sexually dysfunctional.

Re:yes, well...

[geminidomino]

I think that not wanting a gay boy to sleep in a tent with a straight boy is a long shot from "institutionalized homophobia." Give a good reason why, then, other than the typical equating of gay with OMG RAPE!?!!!! panic.

And even if it wasn't, is that really a reason why you should withhold help? Simply because of your ideals? More accurate to say "principles" than "ideals", and the answer is: Yes. Absolutely. With no qualifications.

The Boy Scouts do a lot of good for young boys and to say "your views are wrong therefore I won't help you" is pretty bad. You have a conflicting view of "a lot of good" with many who do not agree, and see no need to support it.

Re:yes, well...

[fyngyrz]

Mythology is set of stories.

Religion is set of beliefs and practices

"Religion is [a] set of beliefs and practices based on stories"

There, fixed that for you. No problem, no need to thank me. :)

Value of religion is still there even if you prove the mythology unscientific.

Yes, and so are the threats and pathologies. Which only concern me when they crossover into my life and the political system that governs my life. Which, sadly, is fairly often.

Also, if I believe in false stories, that never happened, and it makes me a better person, why shouldn't I?

I have no problem with you believing whatever you want to believe. Just don't inflict it on me or those dear to me, and you'll find I'm 100% tolerant of your beliefs. Not respectful, mind you, because respect you have to earn, but tolerant. As soon as you try to get creationism into my kids schools, you're my enemy; as soon as you tell my daughter she's a "bad person" because she has sex outside of marriage, you're my enemy. As soon as you tell my friend he can't marry six wives who want to marry him, you're my enemy. As soon as you tell the liquor store it can't be open on Sunday, you're my enemy. Religion provides a constant stream of interfering zealots that have to be fought at every turn in order to keep society and life in general from regressing. Those religions that do not do so, I have no problem with. For instance, the Buddhists have not gotten in my bad books thus far. So it is possible.

Re:yes, well...

[fyngyrz]

You claim the Boy Scouts are not a tolerant enough organization to be worthy of your support, yet in your post you set the bar quite low on tolerance with unnecessary denigration of their religion.

Look. Say you have a murderer, and a cop. They are at odds by nature; the cop doesn't like the murderer's attitude, and the murderer doesn't like the cops. By your logic, they're on equal ground. Let me put to you as simply as I can: They're not.

Likewise, religion's active crimes and polemics against people's personal, consensual choices are not on the same level with my position that liberty is far more important than what the religious person's imagination does with the idea of someone else's sexual proclivities.

As for your "homophobia" claim, people have different standards as to what sort of sexual activities are good or bad.

That's entirely irrelevant. Those standards are something they can, and should, apply to their own personal lives and to those with whom they have consensual, informed sexual relations. They have no right - let me repeat that - NO RIGHT - to apply those standards to other people. The word "morals" is not, and never will be, a magic key that lets one person control other's personal, informed choices. When people pretend it is, they have sunken to the lowest of the low.

Should I be mad at vegan groups for not doing enough to make meat-eaters feel welcome?

The vegans unquestionably have the high ground there, just as advocates for liberty do in any conflict over freedom of speech and personal choices. So while no doubt meat-eaters object to the vegan position as much as the vegans object to the meat-eater's own, it is quite clear who is right and who is wrong. Which means the answer is, meat-eaters can certainly object, but they'll never traverse the high road for doing so. No one in the discussion, however, is wrong for saying what they are thinking. There are fewer acts that are more important. Despite the contrary outlook of the present administration and the feeble-minded that support it.

Tell them this:

[Creepy Crawler]

Until they remove the "MPAA approved" copyright merit badge, dont help them in any way.

Or... Does anybody remember THIS? I do.

Re:Tell them this:

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a patch, not a badge. It may sound like nitpicking, but they really are different. A patch is a little something you can put on your uniform that your local BSA council can make up on the spot, usually with little or no supervision that you did anything. A merit badge is a nationally approved badge with certified councilors and a constant paper trail. It's a hell of a lot easier to make a badge than a patch.

Re:Tell them this:

[flaming error]

There has never been a "Copyright merit badge" - that was just a cloth patch associated with some misguided local event.

No way - I wouldn't help

[pestie]

The Boy Scouts still discriminate against atheists and homosexuals. They're also a huge organization with no shortage of cash, and they're infiltrated by ultra-conservative Mormons and other Jesus freaks. They're just looking for something for free. Fuck 'em.

Re:No way - I wouldn't help

[54mc]

While I agree that discrimination by any group, including and perhaps especially the Boy Scouts is wrong, I can't help but think that the good far outweighs the bad. The program teaches many skills that today's youth lack. These include self-responsibility and helping others; two things which America's youth are surely lacking in.

To BSA's critics who claim cases of "institutionalized homophobia" and other discriminations, I must ask that you show me where the "institutionalized" part of it comes in. The closest I can find to discrimination against atheists or gays is in the Scout Oath which states:
"On my honor I will do my est to do my duty to God and my country" and "to keep myself... morally straight"
The first of these, I agree, is pretty hard to argue around, but I'm going to try. The point of this part of the oath is not to affirm belief in god or higher power, but rather to show that you know you're not the most important person in the world. It is similar to the second and third steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, which are:
2. [We] came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. [We] made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
As I said, the point of these is not to turn the program into a religion, but rather to establish that the participant is not as important as they may think.

Morally Straight - The oath does not state that one will be sexually straight, but rather morally straight. That is, they will do the right thing. I think the real problem here is not that the wording was designed to trick people, but rather that people have gotten so used to being politically correct that they can't see the word "straight" as meaning anything but heterosexual.

Re:No way - I wouldn't help

[b0bby]

According to Wikipedia:
"The Boy Scouts of America's position is that atheists and agnostics cannot participate as Scouts (youth members) or Scouters (adult leaders). According to the Bylaws of the BSA, Declaration of Religious Principle:

        "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

And:
"Since 1991, openly gay adults have been officially prohibited from joining the Boy Scouts of America. A 1991 Position Statement states: "We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts." The BSA thus "believes that a known or avowed homosexual is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law."

The language used to describe the BSA's policies on homosexuals has evolved over time. Prior to 2004, the policy stated:

        "We do not allow for the registration of avowed homosexuals as members or as leaders of the BSA."

In 2004, the BSA adopted a new policy statement:

        "Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scoutingâ(TM)s values and beliefs."

So, there is clearly institutionalized discrimination. The Girl Scouts of America, however, do not discriminate on the basis of sexuality or (lack of) religion.

Re:No way - I wouldn't help

[SeattleGameboy]

All children start as atheist.

Whether or not they turn to religion is based on what the parents and others around teach them.

They only want your help if...

[SeattleGameboy]

I wonder if anybody can help out or do they only want help from hetersexual and religious programmers?

Wouldn't it be bit of a double standard if they won't allow atheists and homosexuals to join, but will gladly accept free labor from them?

Re:LOL - Boy Scouts

[Denger256]

Yea, I'd help them. NOT. The 90's called and they want their sarcasm back

Hey, they will not let my kid in

[frovingslosh]

My kid was told that he couldn't join, because he said that he didn't believe in their "supreme being". One scout leader, high example of morality that they are, told him to "just lie", but he would not. I should support a group like this?

Re:Hey, they will not let my kid in

[Kennon]

It's so weird how the BSA has, (or not) become some kind of religious group. Back in the mid-80's in central California I was a member of Cub Scouts for 4 years and a Boy Scout little over 2 years and have zero recollection of anything religion-like being part of the experience. We didn't even pray before meals. We played Dungeons and Dragons on camp outs and listened to Pink Floyd and learned wilderness survival, hunting and fishing and read Popular Mechanics magazine and built stuff. The experience was completely secular. There was a Mormon troop in town and they met at their temple and we camped next to them on many a jamboree and camp out and never once do I remember ever seeing a bible or even hear anyone utter anything about religion. Is this religious thing regional? Or maybe part of the religious rights resurgence from the mid-90's?

Re:Hey, they will not let my kid in

[frovingslosh]

You know what I told my child to do? (You are wrong.) Your child is not mature enough to make such choices for himself? On the other hand, by just keeping "that private", you support and strengthen a society wide system of discrimination against those who choose reason over religious babble. I don't go out of my way to tell others my beliefs, my kid doesn't either, and, in fact I've never even had an atheist ring my doorbell and try to tell me about science, but I've had plenty of religious wackos who seem to see a need to knock on my door and tell me their religious belief, as well as some Boy Scouts asking for my support. I don't advocate aggressively spreading my belief, but I certainly consider it moral cowardice to keep one's belief quite when asked, just to keep things "convenient".

Open/Free != Gratis

[kfort]

If they are serious about the values of open source, why don't they offer a bounty as incentive to write the software?

Re:Open/Free != Gratis

[samkass]

Or better yet, have their own employees and scouts develop the skeleton project themselves. There must be SOMEONE in an organization that claims to be the size they do with some computer skills.

Perhaps they kicked those folks out for disagreeing with their religion.

An open source merit badge would be silly

[93 Escort Wagon]

What would make sense is a track toward earning the Computing/IT merit badge that was heavy on open-source development and programming.

BTW sorry for attempting to be on-topic; feel free to continue the ranting... (hello -1 karma!)

Re:LOL - Boy Scouts

[MarcoG42]

The 90's called and they want their sarcasm back

+ + error: infinite loop dedicted + +
+ + out of cheese error - redo from start + +

Great idea! Let's fight bigotry by being bigots!

[FishAdmin]

Everyone has the right to withhold their help from ANY organization whose ideals or methods they don't agree with, and I'll be the first one to support that expression of your beliefs. However, all that I've found the Boy Scouts do is stand on their expressed belief system. They don't agree with homosexuality, and they believe in God, but I've yet to see them march against homosexuality or bbeat children that were found to be Athiest. Please make sure you don't label "disagreement" the same thing as "hatemongering". Everyone has a right to disagree; no one has the right to prosecute another for their beliefs, as long as those beliefs don't infringe upon the rights of another. Withhold or provide your support as you see fit, but don't think that just because someone doesn't agree with you that means they hate you. As for the MPAA...there's no real defense on that one. Sorry, LA Scout branch: that was simply stupid. Teach your kids not to steal ANYTHING; don't limit your lessons to music and movies.

BSA

[phrostie]

just wait till the BSA finds out what the BSA is doing

Re:Boycott

[1155]

OSS people can also be the most close minded people I know. Same with most any other generalized group

Is this the same boy scouts I was in?

[Mavexe]

We didn't have any homo bashing people when I was in. We had kids who chose not to partake in religous activities (me being one of them). I will admit it's somewhat shiesty of them to ask for free software because they're so cheap, and that it will turn around to bite them on the ass years down the road. Is software like this necassary to sell popcorn anyways? Planning camp outs as well? Bust out the damned notebook paper.

Misleading...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a merit badge, it's a patch.

thirded...

[pointbeing]

I have told scouts at fundraisers that the reason I don't support the Boy Scouts is because of their position on atheism and homosexuality.

Interestingly, the Girl Scouts' official position is that they have no official position on homosexuality.

Penn and Teller's show on the Boy Scouts was fascinating - turns out a huge chunk of the Boy Scouts is financed by the Mormon church.

Re:thirded...

[Holi]

>Interestingly, the Girl Scouts' official position is that they have no official position on >homosexuality.

Honestly though, that's because lesbians are hot.

Re:thirded...

[Kozz]

I'm an Eagle Scout. I don't like the "corporate" stance that the BSA has regarding religion and homosexuality. (Disclaimer: I am a straight, white Christian, for whatever that means to you)

When it gets down to the very small community groups where troops may consist of less than 50 scouts, the leaders are parents of scouts, and so on. This is a model where adults lead and teach children -- frequently the children who need guidance and leadership the very most. I fear that outright rejection is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Just an opinion, YMMV.

Re:thirded...

[Deadstick]

I'll take a case of Thin Mints...

rj

Re:thirded...

[thephotoman]

Penn and Teller's show on the Boy Scouts was fascinating - turns out a huge chunk of the Boy Scouts is financed by the Mormon church. This is particularly true in the Rocky Mountains. My troop (back in the day) went to Colorado for summer camp one year, and the best two weeks of the summer were reserved for LDS (Mormon)-affiliated troops only.

In the South, it's the Southern Baptist Church that dominates the Scouting conversation. My troop wasn't affiliated with a church (the scoutmasters were largely atheist/agnostic), and thus had some rather interesting struggles (finding meeting locations, getting feeder relationships with Cub Scout packs).

My knowledge of Scouting in the Midwest is rather shaky, as my only contact with it was with a Methodist-associated troop (as was my original troop, from which my agnostic one split mostly because the original troop grew far too large to be managable). That said, I remember a more developed outdoors program than in my native part of the South. I don't know what things are like on the coasts.

Re:thirded...

[stickystyle]

turns out a huge chunk of the Boy Scouts is financed by the Mormon church.

Thats probably because almost every stake (area of church buildings) has there own BSA troop. When you add up how many LDS churches there are, and that many of the young male members join the BSA troop for there stake - you get a large amount of membership funding.

Don't try to turn basic statistics into a conspiracy.

Re:thirded...

[operagost]

Obviously, your experience with lesbians is limited to adult films.

Re:Freedom is lovely, and hated.

[jedidiah]

They are not a "private" group by any means.

Achievements in "private groups" don't get you brownie points
on US military academy admissions.

*gasp* Libertarian Linux Programmer supports BSA?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a strong Libertarian, a professional Linux programmer, _and_ a Sunday School teacher. My church (Unity) is Christian, while openly accepting gays and atheists / agnostics.

Our old pastor was an Eagle Scout, but wouldn't allow us to sponsor a Scout Troop because of the homosexuality issue. Our new pastor is fine with us sponsoring a Scout Troop.

I am 100% in agreement with the sentiments of all the other posts in this article, namely disgust with the BSA's infiltration by Mormons, pandering to the MPAA/RIAA, and prejudice against gays and non-Christians.

Why then, you may be asking, would I still spend time and effort sponsoring a Scout Troop? Because it's the BEST WE'VE GOT. Go ahead, show me a comparably mature organization offering the structure young men need with free access to all of the campground and other facilities.

There are students in my Sunday School class that we've lost to juvie or worse, tragedies that could have been avoided if there was something equivalent to a Scout Troop available. Even if we ran into problems with forming an official BSA Troop, we were going to create the non-BSA equivalent (Unity Scouts or something).

Lastly, you can be damned certain we'll be teaching the kids good principles, not the gay-bashing or whatever most /.'ers seem to think is the only thing possible.

I say the FOSS movement should step up to bat on this one to show we're not petty, angry little children like most of the comments I've seen so far.

-AC

(Note: I'm only posting as AC to protect the identities of Church members and children.)

How old are you?

[ttfkam]

If you are over 30, your (and my) Boy Scouts is not the BSA of today.

If you are younger, I think you just got lucky. Extremely lucky.

Re:How old are you?

[thephotoman]

Hell, even the Boy Scouts of 10 years ago (the group I knew) is not the Boy Scouts of today. The group was inclusive even at that point. It was shortly after I stopped going to meetings regularly that things really started changing for the worse.

Re:I've seen more tolerance in the Boy Scouts

[Hairy Heron]

As far as the homosexuality issue, this is a result of a basic moral code they ascribe to. This is their right. Efforts to discriminate aginst the Boyscouts Because of their moral beliefs sound strangly hollow when those who want their moral beliefs to be free of discrimination. Sure they have all the rights in the world to be as bigoted as they want. Doesn't mean that we don't also have the same right to criticize them for their views all we want. In the end the problem has to do with them demanding money and services from the government while trying to discriminate at the same time. You can't demand that the public funds your bigotry. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.

Why not use the open source thats already avail?

[cybrthng]

It wouldn't be much work for such a wealthy organization to use Drupal + Modules or Civic CRM integration and get everything they need.

In fact, the software solution is going to be the easiest piece - its the hosting & infrastructure to connect and manage the scouts & train staff that will be the costly venture.

LOLdot

[BigBlueOx]

"Boy Scouts? They're close-minded Christian big(g)ots not open-minded people like us! Fuck 'em!"
"Yeah!"
"Ditto!"
"Me Too!"
"I HATE Republicans!"
"Yeah!"
"Me Too!"
"Ditto!
"And Microsoft! I HATE Microsoft!"
"Yeah!"

if they donate

[batje]

a huge amount of time, effort or money to http://civicrm.org/ i guess that would be ok. then some volunteer can make them a cute pinkish template, and whoopsa!

Ask The MPAA

[nick_davison]

Given they're already partnering with the MPAA for "Respect Copyrights" patches, surely they should be their first port of call rather than those evil open source pirates?

When literature for your merit badges contains text like, "There are peer to peer groups who offer legal downloads and those who offer illegal downloads. Make a list of both. Suggest ways to detect peer to peer software like the MPAA Parent File Scan." it would be kind of hypocritical to then advocate software that's liable to be built off the kinds of tools, by the kinds of evil people, another badge already warns about.

A huge part of the BSA is a great and honorable institution. But when it comes to institutionalizing homophobia, forcing religious beliefs and teaming up with corporate entities that demonize whole communities, it's probably not the best time to go asking for those communities for help.

All scouting troops are not the same

[Esc7]

I was a boyscout. I was in it since graduating Cub scouts and stayed in until venture scouts. While not getting my eagle, I was very active and did a lot.

Boy scouts to me was all about hanging out with my friends, going camping, going backpacking, shooting guns, making lashing structures, sailing, swimming, cooking, basket weaving, learning first aid and emergency prep, knot tying, metal working and a whole host of other things. Boy scouts was where I was introduced to DnD, the best thing to play when your'e out in the wilderness with absolutely no electricity and only your imagination. It was a wonderful experience, now as an adult my fellow scouts are my best friends and the scoutmasters are revered mentors. It helped me grow into a Man, and if I have a boy I will more than likely enroll him.

The point is, our troop was nothing more than boys and their dads. We don't have some clergy like the church ruling our actions. In fact the scout leaders FORCED us to do EVERYTHING. We planned the trips, the meals, the transportation, the meetings, the lessons. They merely assisted and guided. What this means is that all the talk I hear now of homophobia and anti-atheist discrimination is a kind of surprise. It NEVER came up in my troop, I'd say a good majority of them weren't associated with any religion.

The troop's views are the sum of its constituents. It's not that The Boy Scouts are passing down from on high that no gay kids are allowed. Hell I think we had at least one in our troop. Did it make a difference? No, the whole thing was about having fun, not excluding people.

I'm sure that the troops that make the news with this, and the top level administration pandering to their evangelical base are simply made up of people who think homosexuality is a sin and atheists are immoral. Don't forget a good portion of America DOES think this. It's a reflection of a portion of the population.

So know, that yes there are liberal troops out there that don't concern themselves with exclusion, only with the boys and making their lives better. I'm a testament to it, and I'm certain there's hundreds others like me. As time rolls the general views of America's population will change, and then so will the Scouts. Until then, denying them them help, when helping would teach an excellent lesson is unecessarily mean. I know that I will try to help if this project comes around. All the boys don't deserve to be punished for what wrong people say.

BE PREPARED.

Re:All scouting troops are not the same

[gtx]

What you're failing to account for is the fact that the rules of BSA state that these people simply cannot be a part of the organization:

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp

So even if individual troops overlook these rules, they do so in direct opposition to the rules. I don't know about you, but I see no reason to support an organization that dismisses me due to its own ignorant definition of "immoral."

Re:All scouting troops are not the same

[avoiceinthewildernes]

What you're failing to account for is the fact that the rules of BSA state that these people simply cannot be a part of the organization What you're failing to understand is that a local troop's interactions with the BSA are practically nil.

Any large organization will have its share of idiotic nutjobs, especially in positions of bureaucratic authority. The question is whether the organization is so corrupt and inflexible that one does a greater wrong by engagement or by disengagement. This is a case where, for anyone not entirely ignorant of that actual character and values of actual troops in the actual world, it is obvious that engagement and respectful disagreement with official policy is the better course.

Only someone ignorant of what Scouting is actually like would dismiss it out of hand on the basis of what BSA says and does. It would be like hating all Americans on account of disagreements with the current administration.

By the way, for those who think there is something hypocritical about local troops overlooking certain of the rules from the BSA, there is nothing in the spirit or character of Scouting that endorses stupid rule-mongering. Quite to the contrary, Scouting encourages boys to think for themselves and become self-reliant.

For the record, I am an atheist, and my son is a Scout (which meets in a Church). When I was a Scout, there was a least one boy in our troop who was gay. Those with a knee-jerk reaction against anything that might be a bit wholesome and admirable need to be a bit more reflective and thoughtful.

By the way, Scouts were multiculturalists and promoters of racial and religious tolerance long before these were mainstream values. In fact, one can earn a religious awards in totally non-theist religions like Universalism and Buddhism.

Re:All scouting troops are not the same

[swillden]

So even if individual troops overlook these rules, they do so in direct opposition to the rules. I don't know about you, but I see no reason to support an organization that dismisses me due to its own ignorant definition of "immoral."

Your choice. But if you ever have a son, I highly encourage you to let him be involved in scouts. The activities of most troops have nothing to do with sexual orientation or belief in God, and it's a great opportunity for boys to learn self-reliance, leadership, and have a lot of great fun.

Meanwhile across the pond...

[Bazman]

...sense reigns:

from the UK Scouting web site:

---
Who can be a Scout?
Scouting is open to all young people aged 6 to 25 of every faith and background.
---

  - so write them some software.

Re:Meanwhile across the pond...

[meringuoid]

Scouting is open to all young people aged 6 to 25 of every faith and background.

I seem to recall having to promise to do my duty to God and to the Queen. Back then I didn't have a problem with that; nowadays I'm an atheist and a republican :-)

Looking around the UK Scouts website, they don't seem to insist on the kids being straight or theistic (although they do encourage religious participation, and although they vary the wording of the promise for many faiths there's no atheists' formulation). However, I am disturbed by the implications of this document, listing their 'Key Policies'.

It seems there are exactly two kinds of people they refuse to accept as troop leaders.

Atheists, and paedophiles.

Am I the only one who finds that incredibly insulting?

Re:meh, there are better reasons Re:No

[cptdondo]

What, do married men get their dick cut off? WTF does being married or single have to do with child abuse?

Re:Any Gay Programmers "Out" There?

[natoochtoniket]

I would be glad to help the Boy Scouts, if they will change their discrimination policy and allow me to register again. I was a scout, and then a scouter, for more than 15 years before the BSA made the policy that gay people may not be members. I have not registered since.

They don't actually forbid gay people from registering. The actual policy only forbids honest gay people from registering. If a gay adult is willing to lie and stay "in the closet", it's ok. Of course, the actual implementation differs from the policy significantly. Most councils have periodic "witch hunts", in which even closeted gay men are expelled.

Re:MOD PARENT UP!

[Creepy Crawler]

Boy Scouts use public land (eg. public schools, parks).

Federal law says one cannot discriminate on religion (with exemption of private groups).

When Boy Scouts exclusively use public land (school area is occupied and only for Boy Scouts), explain why they need not adhere to the religious discrimination policy?

Why would they have an open source merit badge?

[Zorque]

I think some of you people go a little too far in your support of F/OSS. Why shouldn't the scouts just have a "coding" merit badge, or better, just stick with the "computer" badge?

BSA is what the local pack / chapter makes it

[Juneau]

As an Eagle scout, a scout leader, and parent of a cub scout and a boy scout, I'd like to kick in my .02 cents.

Our group is sponsored by a church. I don't recall us every having a prayer, or any religious leader saying anything about god. Our group is very inclusive, and I would say that most of our group has little involvement in religion. We just use the church.

I think our scouts get a lot out of the program. They are out camping once a month. They take extended wilderness trips. They learn skills they can use in many areas of their life, including how to deal with adults, how to deal with other difficult kids, and how to lead kids. We do a lot of service projects, and our troop probably as a group does several thousand hours of service for the community - and very little of that is done for the church where we have our meetings.

Maybe there are troops out there that push the agenda, and are right wing homophobes. But it's not our group. Even my wife, who thought boy scouts was a truly evil group, has come around to think the program is very worthwhile.

It's the local people that make it work. Donate your time to THEM if you like, don't if you don't want to.

Is open source software "stealing"?

[SendBot]

I remember a requirement for the computers merit badge was to explain why it is wrong to make copies of games and commercial software. I wasn't fooled for a moment that the argument of piracy destroying software was valid, so I said something along the lines of paying for software that makes your business operate makes more sense than gaming companies losing over casual piracy.

My friends and I would distribute games where everyone pays for the games they individually contribute. We just end up buying more games and learning about games we wouldn't have known about while buying future games from the same publisher/developer. Our kid money didn't carry the same weight as adults with full-time jobs (and less time to play as many games as we did), so it only made sense to pool together to maximize our gaming dollar. Despite the technical occurrences of piracy, all the money that sierra, lucasarts, bullfrog, interplay, electronic arts, sega, and nintendo (to name but a few) got from us certainly didn't hurt them any.

For my two cents, I don't think that the BSA's homosexual discrimination policy is particularly brave.

Re:Great idea! Let's fight bigotry by being bigots

[pla]

Please make sure you don't label "disagreement" the same thing as "hatemongering".

Another well-known "club" has a set of beliefs (based on the same book, ironically enough) whereby they don't allow blacks and Jews to join. Would you call their stance "hatemongering" or "disagreement"?

Re:meh, there are better reasons Re:No

[GreyyGuy]

You are aware that the vast majority of people that molest underage boys are men that identify as straight, don't you?

By your logic, the scout troops would be safer camping with an out gay man.

What?

[znerk]

Actually the BSA doesnt the Mormon church that runs the hate all not mormon part of it. I'm sorry, could you repeat that in english? I tried, I really did, and I'm usually awesome at understanding typoese... this just doesn't compute in any way, shape, or form.

No, really. But try typing the words in a sentence, this time. With, I don't know... grammar, and stuff.

Re:No wonder...

[sm62704]

Attention American mods: that was a British joke, albeit a poor one. In the British Isles, a "fag" is a cigarette. Mr. AC, your joke was in poor taste, as over here in the colonies "fag" is a pejoritive term for "homosexual".

Re:From an Eagle Scout...

[jamesoutlaw]

As for homosexuality, I have no problem with homosexuality, but I still approve of the Boy Scouts' stance on it. Scouting is an institution that helps boys grow up to be men. It is not an institution to help boys grow up to be women

Homosexual men are not the same as nor do they aspire to be women.

A former scout speaks, "No. Absolutely not."

[geohump]

I was a scout during the late 60's and early 70's. Back then there was no restriction on Homosexuals in the Scouts. While I had a wonderful time in scouting, this change to an attitude of prejudice and intolerance is NOT what I learned Scouting was about. In fact, its directly the opposite of the actual principles of the Boy Scouts. The religious bigots who manipulated the system to add this expression of hatred and intolerance to Scouting need to be kicked out of the BSA and their rules with them. No help for the BSA until they return to their former, better policies.

background info - 2 years at religious christian college, BS in Comp-Sci, married, 2 kids (Yes, I am a middle American. Would someone please kick the flaming idiot neo-cons and intolerant-hate-mongering religion-ists out of Washington DC? Please! )

Re:meh, there are better reasons Re:No

[navygeek]

I can't imagine why someone would actually mod this hate speech up. I don't really care if I'm 'missing the point' and the parent is trying to be 'ironic', what he's saying is just stupid.

First of all, yes the general structure of the organization (at the troop level) has a resemblance to a military organization. Is this some how shocking considering it was founded by a British Lieutenant General. Imagine that, a guy going with what he knows. "origins with similar fascist programs in Europe prior to WWII" - name one. Funny enough, the scouting movement started not because Baden-Powell said 'hey lets form troops and do stuff', it was boys and girls gathering of their own volition and, per wiki, 'spontaneously formed Scout troops' and used the reference guides BP wrote earlier in the century.

So, by your argument, every single man that wants to become a teacher below the collegiate level is somehow 'weird and fishy'? You obviously don't have the first damn clue as to why someone would become a Scout leader. Most volunteer because their sons are involved in scouts and it's a good way to connect and spend quality time with them. Others because, Heaven and Hell forbid, they want to pass on their knowledge of various skills. Thanks to many such leaders, by the time I was 15 I was a modest backpacker and survivalist. Not an expert, but a damn sight better than your average person. I can still start a fire without matches (3 different ways, using only what's found in the woods), track animals, navigate by the stars alone, and do the proverbial 'living off the land'. But of course, by your reasoning, everyone that taught me anything was some creepy old man trying to jingle my change purse. In short, shut the hell up about what you know precisely jackshit about.

Does the BSA discriminate against homosexuals and atheists/agnostics? Yes, unfortunately they do and it's with a deep sense of shame that I admit that. Boy Scouts gave me some of the greatest experiences in my life and it hurts to know that there are boys and young men that will never be able to participate so long as they are true to themselves. It's even worse when potential leaders, who are nothing but good role models, are barred because they too are being true to themselves. I can't help but think of the South Park episode. Big Gay Al seemed to be doing a GREAT job as Scoutmaster, but he was booted because he was, obviously, gay. That's the kind of nonsense that's hurting the BSA more than anything. Well, that an ignorant people like you.

Re:From an Eagle Scout...

[nuzak]

> It is not an institution to help boys grow up to be women

Yeah, I see they taught you some real fine lessons. I think you just made our point.

I was a scout. The BSA can go pound sand.

Re:No shit, really?

[radio4fan]

I think my point was pretty plain. Scouting is a place to help boys grow up to be men. NORMAL men. Well, yes. Pretty plain you're a homopohobe.

Re:Any Gay Programmers "Out" There?

[Sax Maniac]

Open gays are excluded in scouting because inherently it becomes sexuality issue. A leader who discusses sex issues at a scouting meeting or function should be removed. Scouting is not the forum for "discovering" one's sexual identity. If I were to say in a scout meeting, "I really enjoyed banging my wife last night," I'd be thrown out.

Wow, you have a funny definition of "openly gay". Funny in the sense of "bigoted".

I'm openly heterosexual. My wife and kids come visit me at work. I kiss her goodbye when she leaves. It's obvious I am heterosexual. At no point do I talk to my coworkers or children about sex.

A person who is openly gay, is not by definition talking about sex anymore than I am. It means they are not in the closet.

Re:I'm afraid of gay people?

[meringuoid]

I assure you, I am not afraid of gay people.

Yet you're afraid to let them near your children, and afraid that they might make your children turn out just like them...

Re:Problem: Atheist tried to make the BSA Athiest

[Medievalist]

Athiest, now, are generally the most adamant about making other people belive like them than the reverse (Dawkins, Brown, etc).

Ah, yes, Charlemagne's campaigns, the Spanish Inquisition, the Reformation, all those thousands of Jews and Lutherans and Anabaptists tortured or burnt at the stake, the persecution of the Unitarians and Universalists, all that doesn't count - only the people Stalin killed count, because Stalin was an atheist!

My ancestors came to this country to escape religious persecution. My wife's ancestors were burnt out of their homes in England by Catholic mobs. But hey, God told them to do all that stuff so it's obviously OK.

Now, atheists, on the other hand - what's their excuse? Why, they've slaughtered nearly .00000000001 percent as many people as the servants of God have, those bastards!!!

Woulda cost me Eagle...

[Anonymous Coward]

AC for a few reasons, sorry.

Shocked by the "I was an atheist and it was fine" comments.

I worked all the way through to Eagle Scout. Busted my butt, volunteered a lot, etc. Still try to be an honest, trustworthy guy, and heck, maybe that keeps me from advancing in the selfish-filled Corporate World, but that's a topic for another rant.

I got to my review committee and was *grilled* about my religious convictions, and this in a troop that wasn't particularly religious. My long-stated (and harrassment-inducing) atheism was suddenly a Very Big Problem. My closest advisor finally said something along the lines of, "ok, you don't believe a lot of specifics for any particular sect, but you believe in a higher power God, right? **_RIGHT_**?" with a "yes or you're done, even after a long, committed scouting life" look.

I mumbled some vague affirmatives sheepishly and all seemed satisfied. The topic changed.

I have never felt right about that. Don't think about it often, but now that I have, some ~15-20 years later, it still upsets me. I have always wanted to send in my badges and resign publicly as I wish I had done so on the spot. Maybe I'll go write a letter tonight.

Then again, don't get me started on the ignorant homophobia. This straight, white guy took a *lot* of sh!t for fighting against that. Really always seemed like a lot of closeted/self-denying/ignorant rednecks were leading that hate brigade. But the camping, knives, guns, etc were worth it! (at the time... I guess...)

Re:Normal.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

I don't think you are ever going to get homosexuals teenage boys to fit into a group of paramilitary heterosexual teenage boys, regardless of my position or the position of the BSA.

I think you're still buying into outdated stereotypes about homosexuals. Sure, some intentionally act effeminately, but certainly not all. I also know two that can kick my butt, and I'm not exactly an easy mark. There are a lot of homosexuals these days that are into weight lifting and martial arts... a lot of persecuted cultures seem to do that. From there, a lot of them become interested in guns, archery, camping, etc., just the things the the boy scouts tend to teach.

Certainly, children tend to be cruel and pick on those different than them. In 1974 many boy scout leaders argued that black children could not be integrated into "mixed race" boy scout troops because the white kids would not accept blacks as equals. To some degree, they were and are still correct. But for the most part blacks kids are now accepted by the majority of their white peers. Until you allow kids to socialize together and overcome their prejudices, all you're doing is making the prejudice worse by promoting and exploiting ignorance.

After considering the issue this evening, I believe the wisest course would be for the BSA to officially change its stance to allow anyone in regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof) or sexual orientation. The situation will sort itself out socially.

I applaud your position. I have every confidence such a move by the scouts would eventually "sort itself out" just as it did with the issue of race.

Re:No shit, really?

[Doctor Faustus]

Scouting is a place to help boys grow up to be men. NORMAL men.
But then they're asking for computer help. I've met a couple of programmers who were normal men. They sucked.

Re:Could an Atheist or Agnostic explain this to me

[Niten]

Assuming that you believe God does not exist, what harm is there in saying it?

You're still asking people to pledge their belief in a deity by saying the oath -- or to lie about said belief. That's dishonorable and relegates non-religious folks to the status of second-class citizens within the organization. I should also point out that the text of the Oath is only one facet of the deep problems of discrimination within the BSA.

Its the same thing with the Pledge of Allegiance. One nation under god.

The current Pledge of Allegiance is a another issue, but it is overdue for a change back to its pre-1950s text, wherein the offending "under god" line was originally absent before the Knights of Columbus lobbied Congress to insert religious imagery into it. Much like the Scout's Oath, the current Pledge asks children to pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian worldview. However, unlike the Scout's Oath, the Pledge is imposed on kids the country over in public schools, making the situation even worse.

It's easy to dismiss this as inconsequential if you've never walked in the shoes of a non-religious American (or, indeed, any minority); but consider that this exclusionary wording has been used as a bullet point to argue for even greater degrees of religious discrimination, and I think you'll begin to see how much of a problem even the slightest crack in the wall of separation between church and state can be.