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Boy Scouts Ask Open Source Community For Help
Lucas123 writes "The Boy Scouts of America are looking to the open-source community for help in building software to use for fundraisers, special events, and other functions, for their more than 121,000 local scout troops. Some open source advocates, who are former Boy Scouts, support the idea, despite a few reservations. According to the article, there are no plans for a scout merit badge in open source — but there has been a merit badge in computers since 1967, 'and it is possible that if the program is successful, it could eventually be used by IT-savvy scouts themselves.'"
I thought they hated open source.
The Boy Scouts of America actively discriminate against atheists and homosexuals despite receiving government funding. They can fuck right off.
Absolutely, love to help 'em.
Just as soon as they lose the institutionalized homophobia and pandering to mythology.
Other than that, I think they're entirely deserving of assistance. And yes, I was a boy scout. :)
Of course, I recognize that as a private organization, they have the right to such stone age views; however, I also have the right to hold them accountable for them.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Until they remove the "MPAA approved" copyright merit badge, dont help them in any way.
Or... Does anybody remember THIS? I do.
The Boy Scouts still discriminate against atheists and homosexuals. They're also a huge organization with no shortage of cash, and they're infiltrated by ultra-conservative Mormons and other Jesus freaks. They're just looking for something for free. Fuck 'em.
I wonder if anybody can help out or do they only want help from hetersexual and religious programmers?
Wouldn't it be bit of a double standard if they won't allow atheists and homosexuals to join, but will gladly accept free labor from them?
Let's see:
Homophobic anti-atheist organization that sides with MPAA.
Yea, I'd help them. NOT.
Yep, their asking a group of the most open-minded people (OSS devs) to help their organization which is still fucking around with discrimination. If they want help they are going to have to move on.
Obligatory blog plug: http://www.caseybanner.ca/
My kid was told that he couldn't join, because he said that he didn't believe in their "supreme being". One scout leader, high example of morality that they are, told him to "just lie", but he would not. I should support a group like this?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
The first thought in my mind is as the Supreme Court rightfully upheld their ability to be biggots, we as a community have every right to tell them to go somehwere else and pay for their needs.
Money goes a long way of getting past my social obligations....
D.O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V.M.
If they are serious about the values of open source, why don't they offer a bounty as incentive to write the software?
What would make sense is a track toward earning the Computing/IT merit badge that was heavy on open-source development and programming.
BTW sorry for attempting to be on-topic; feel free to continue the ranting... (hello -1 karma!)
#DeleteChrome
There's tons of information out there, linux distros galore, open office, et. al. They want me to hold their hand or something?
Nah, that would be kinda gay.
I will help if they will renounce that god fo theirs, the hippie one, who needs money all the time. At lot of money.
Salut,
Jacques
I was going to come here to discuss their exclusionary nature. It seems I will have to take a number...
Number 32?
If they can refuse membership to kids, are they going to vet and refuse software that was written by gays, atheists, agnostics, women?
Because I think they are going to have a hard time finding software that meets those criteria.
I was a cub scout-- love them to death-- definately a patriotic/nationalistic type organization. The entire religion thing has gotten a bit out of hand from what it was like when I was a kid. But they can believe what they want as long as they don't try to use free government buildings to promote their now religious agenda. And I'd prefer that they not be hypocritical about using products from people they would exclude to save some money.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Everyone has the right to withhold their help from ANY organization whose ideals or methods they don't agree with, and I'll be the first one to support that expression of your beliefs. However, all that I've found the Boy Scouts do is stand on their expressed belief system. They don't agree with homosexuality, and they believe in God, but I've yet to see them march against homosexuality or bbeat children that were found to be Athiest. Please make sure you don't label "disagreement" the same thing as "hatemongering". Everyone has a right to disagree; no one has the right to prosecute another for their beliefs, as long as those beliefs don't infringe upon the rights of another. Withhold or provide your support as you see fit, but don't think that just because someone doesn't agree with you that means they hate you. As for the MPAA...there's no real defense on that one. Sorry, LA Scout branch: that was simply stupid. Teach your kids not to steal ANYTHING; don't limit your lessons to music and movies.
Last night I played a blank tape at full volume. The mime next door went nuts.
just wait till the BSA finds out what the BSA is doing
We didn't have any homo bashing people when I was in. We had kids who chose not to partake in religous activities (me being one of them). I will admit it's somewhat shiesty of them to ask for free software because they're so cheap, and that it will turn around to bite them on the ass years down the road. Is software like this necassary to sell popcorn anyways? Planning camp outs as well? Bust out the damned notebook paper.
It's not a merit badge, it's a patch.
I say send Crunch along to help them out. He'd fit right in.
well said
If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
the mormons for more money!
Sig
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars
I have told scouts at fundraisers that the reason I don't support the Boy Scouts is because of their position on atheism and homosexuality.
Interestingly, the Girl Scouts' official position is that they have no official position on homosexuality.
Penn and Teller's show on the Boy Scouts was fascinating - turns out a huge chunk of the Boy Scouts is financed by the Mormon church.
we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
-- anais nin
Reading the CW article it sounded like they just needed/wanted some sort of CMS to help organize things nationally. For that, there's TONS of OSS CMS systems out there.
But on the scouting.org page itself, "Open Source Software" is thrown around as a buzzword so much my head hurt. It sounds like they want to create a Scout-centric Sourceforge type of place? Why not just compile a list of applications that mostly meed their needs, then augment them as they see need (while contributing back to the community of course)? Or are they looking for the manpower to do it in the first place?
I absolutely agree. I only hope they get their heads out of their asses by the time my son is old enough to join.
SpyDock: Scientific Python in a Docker container
Actually, Explorer Scouts had a computer track by 1964 (I was in it then)
wake up and hold your nose
I've seen more TOLERANCE in the Boy Scouts than on this thread. The Boy Scouts teach tolerance for other points of view while maintaining their membership standards. Perhaps the members of this threead could learn the lessons about tolerance and respect of other points of view while disagreeing with them. In general this is how civilized societies behave. This is also how issues get debated.
Simply put The Boy Scouts insist that mbmbers are reverent to their idea of a supreme being. Yes your religion could be Jedi if you wanted it to be.
As far as the homosexuality issue, this is a result of a basic moral code they ascribe to. This is their right. Efforts to discriminate aginst the Boyscouts Because of their moral beliefs sound strangly hollow when those who want their moral beliefs to be free of discrimination.
Also, their youth protection guidelines come into play. I know of few parents that would feel comfortable knowing that young boys were in the keeping of homosexual leaders. This may be stereotyping, but that is the way most parents think.
From wikipedia of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies
"The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the largest youth organization in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics, and "known or avowed" homosexuals from membership in its Scouting program; both youths and adults have had their memberships revoked as a result."
I hear the Cult *ahem* Church of Scientology is also looking for to the open-source community for help in building software to use for fundraisers, special events, and auditing celebrity members.
If a baby duck is a "duckling," why would anyone want to eat "dumplings?"
Open Source Software: only for people we like.
Or, answering bigotry with more bigotry.
If someone wants to code their program for them, that's their business. If it helps the community, that is great. All this talk about the BSA "deserving" the help of "the community" is ridiculous. Just a load of projecting one's own feelings onto a very large and diverse group of people, who as smaller groups or individuals may or may not agree with your views.
So, you're saying that when a, let's say a country club, excludes, let's say blacks, they're not being racist, they just 'disagree' with other peoples' skin color. Bigots are bigots, frigtard.
Even though I don't condone their policies (and will never buy their wares), I think its honorable that they are doing at least some good by bringing some mainstream PR for FOSS.
They are not a "private" group by any means.
Achievements in "private groups" don't get you brownie points
on US military academy admissions.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
As an atheist Eagle Scout, I never once felt oppressed. I just chose not to go to Non-Denominational services.
As far as gays go, they are of the same policy "don't ask, don't tell" as the military.
For obvious reasons, if you are affiliated with NAMBLA, you won't be allow to be a Scoutmaster.
It really amazes me the ignorance out there for this organization that truly helps youth (boys and girls) put their heads on straight and open their minds to so many possibilities.
I'll be helping with some of the projects. I owe the organization for my achievements.
Maybe some of you out there have 2 cents to give??
I'm a strong Libertarian, a professional Linux programmer, _and_ a Sunday School teacher. My church (Unity) is Christian, while openly accepting gays and atheists / agnostics.
/.'ers seem to think is the only thing possible.
Our old pastor was an Eagle Scout, but wouldn't allow us to sponsor a Scout Troop because of the homosexuality issue. Our new pastor is fine with us sponsoring a Scout Troop.
I am 100% in agreement with the sentiments of all the other posts in this article, namely disgust with the BSA's infiltration by Mormons, pandering to the MPAA/RIAA, and prejudice against gays and non-Christians.
Why then, you may be asking, would I still spend time and effort sponsoring a Scout Troop? Because it's the BEST WE'VE GOT. Go ahead, show me a comparably mature organization offering the structure young men need with free access to all of the campground and other facilities.
There are students in my Sunday School class that we've lost to juvie or worse, tragedies that could have been avoided if there was something equivalent to a Scout Troop available. Even if we ran into problems with forming an official BSA Troop, we were going to create the non-BSA equivalent (Unity Scouts or something).
Lastly, you can be damned certain we'll be teaching the kids good principles, not the gay-bashing or whatever most
I say the FOSS movement should step up to bat on this one to show we're not petty, angry little children like most of the comments I've seen so far.
-AC
(Note: I'm only posting as AC to protect the identities of Church members and children.)
Just leave your kids at home playing GTAIV instead. Get a grip. If you stand for anything in this world you will tick someone off. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
If you are over 30, your (and my) Boy Scouts is not the BSA of today.
If you are younger, I think you just got lucky. Extremely lucky.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
The boy scouts need morals, and not bullshit "I do exactly what a two century year old book tells me to do" morals. If the OSS community can make software that teaches them to respect their fellow man (even if he likes having sex with his fellow man) and to stand up for what's right (even if the RIAA is pressuring them to do otherwise), then I'm all for it. Otherwise, I'm with the rest of the posters here: fuck 'em.
It wouldn't be much work for such a wealthy organization to use Drupal + Modules or Civic CRM integration and get everything they need.
In fact, the software solution is going to be the easiest piece - its the hosting & infrastructure to connect and manage the scouts & train staff that will be the costly venture.
...at least give them credit for that. Most members are embarrassed by the bigotry displayed by the national organization, and fully control their local orgs.
Their request is none to aware, since most of their needs can be met by a simple CMS configuration. They really ought to try harder, but most of their effort goes into having fun, not computing. This solution does not require a lot of custom programming, if any, and the same could be said about most non-profit orgs.
"Boy Scouts? They're close-minded Christian big(g)ots not open-minded people like us! Fuck 'em!"
"Yeah!"
"Ditto!"
"Me Too!"
"I HATE Republicans!"
"Yeah!"
"Me Too!"
"Ditto!
"And Microsoft! I HATE Microsoft!"
"Yeah!"
a huge amount of time, effort or money to http://civicrm.org/ i guess that would be ok. then some volunteer can make them a cute pinkish template, and whoopsa!
Given they're already partnering with the MPAA for "Respect Copyrights" patches, surely they should be their first port of call rather than those evil open source pirates?
When literature for your merit badges contains text like, "There are peer to peer groups who offer legal downloads and those who offer illegal downloads. Make a list of both. Suggest ways to detect peer to peer software like the MPAA Parent File Scan." it would be kind of hypocritical to then advocate software that's liable to be built off the kinds of tools, by the kinds of evil people, another badge already warns about.
A huge part of the BSA is a great and honorable institution. But when it comes to institutionalizing homophobia, forcing religious beliefs and teaming up with corporate entities that demonize whole communities, it's probably not the best time to go asking for those communities for help.
I was a boyscout. I was in it since graduating Cub scouts and stayed in until venture scouts. While not getting my eagle, I was very active and did a lot.
Boy scouts to me was all about hanging out with my friends, going camping, going backpacking, shooting guns, making lashing structures, sailing, swimming, cooking, basket weaving, learning first aid and emergency prep, knot tying, metal working and a whole host of other things. Boy scouts was where I was introduced to DnD, the best thing to play when your'e out in the wilderness with absolutely no electricity and only your imagination. It was a wonderful experience, now as an adult my fellow scouts are my best friends and the scoutmasters are revered mentors. It helped me grow into a Man, and if I have a boy I will more than likely enroll him.
The point is, our troop was nothing more than boys and their dads. We don't have some clergy like the church ruling our actions. In fact the scout leaders FORCED us to do EVERYTHING. We planned the trips, the meals, the transportation, the meetings, the lessons. They merely assisted and guided. What this means is that all the talk I hear now of homophobia and anti-atheist discrimination is a kind of surprise. It NEVER came up in my troop, I'd say a good majority of them weren't associated with any religion.
The troop's views are the sum of its constituents. It's not that The Boy Scouts are passing down from on high that no gay kids are allowed. Hell I think we had at least one in our troop. Did it make a difference? No, the whole thing was about having fun, not excluding people.
I'm sure that the troops that make the news with this, and the top level administration pandering to their evangelical base are simply made up of people who think homosexuality is a sin and atheists are immoral. Don't forget a good portion of America DOES think this. It's a reflection of a portion of the population.
So know, that yes there are liberal troops out there that don't concern themselves with exclusion, only with the boys and making their lives better. I'm a testament to it, and I'm certain there's hundreds others like me. As time rolls the general views of America's population will change, and then so will the Scouts. Until then, denying them them help, when helping would teach an excellent lesson is unecessarily mean. I know that I will try to help if this project comes around. All the boys don't deserve to be punished for what wrong people say.
BE PREPARED.
...sense reigns:
from the UK Scouting web site:
---
Who can be a Scout?
Scouting is open to all young people aged 6 to 25 of every faith and background.
---
- so write them some software.
There are hackers (not crackers) amongst the BS. They could contribute or create OSS projects for their community projects.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
What, do married men get their dick cut off? WTF does being married or single have to do with child abuse?
would making your own myspace page count...?
No organization that receives government funding is truly private.
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
There is a huge difference between "hate/bigotry" and disagreeing with someones lifestyle choices. If I set up a club, and set membership conditions that reflect the core beliefs of the club, does that qualify as hate/bigotry? Would I allow Steve Ballmer membership in my Linux Users group? Would George Bush be welcomed in a meeting of the Democratic National Committee? Clubs/organizations are exclusionary by nature. They are groupings of people who are like minded about a certain issue. So join them if you wish or don't join them. But don't call them biggots.
I would be glad to help the Boy Scouts, if they will change their discrimination policy and allow me to register again. I was a scout, and then a scouter, for more than 15 years before the BSA made the policy that gay people may not be members. I have not registered since.
They don't actually forbid gay people from registering. The actual policy only forbids honest gay people from registering. If a gay adult is willing to lie and stay "in the closet", it's ok. Of course, the actual implementation differs from the policy significantly. Most councils have periodic "witch hunts", in which even closeted gay men are expelled.
Welcome to the 21st century, where every single/homosexual person is a child molester. Enjoy your stay.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
Boy Scouts use public land (eg. public schools, parks).
Federal law says one cannot discriminate on religion (with exemption of private groups).
When Boy Scouts exclusively use public land (school area is occupied and only for Boy Scouts), explain why they need not adhere to the religious discrimination policy?
I think some of you people go a little too far in your support of F/OSS. Why shouldn't the scouts just have a "coding" merit badge, or better, just stick with the "computer" badge?
In which case, if atheists were smart. They would create the "Order of the Spaghetti Monster" award.
This makes me laugh really. I am a boy scout and have worked for the boy scouts. And to really get a good open source project off the ground would take WAY to long than would be acceptable for the guys who run the scouts. Plus then there comes the issue distribution. I know that if the software became big and good the Boy Scouts would try and find a way to keep others from using it for free. Drupple should be just fine for them.
I have no Problem with the BSA choosing whom they want to be allowed in there community what i tend to have a problem with is their continuing ability to have their Jamborees on US government property. Since 1981 their National Jamboree has been hosted at Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia. This is a directly funded by the US tax payer. They continue to host Scouting event on Public School property. If they want to discriminate against anyone they need to be removed from any tax payer funded locations. Why should the American tax pay foot the bill for events like these.
I don't have a lot of experience with the organization, but I did work at a Cub Scout camp one summer in high school and was taken aback when they almost put me back on the bus because of my earrings & punk haircut. (This was the 80s.) It pissed me off, because I had only agreed to go there as a favor to a teacher who was a scoutmaster, they didn't have enough counselors, yet they were ready to refuse my help. I ended up having a good time, the kids were great, but I was soured on the whole organization after that & their going to the Supreme Court to defend their right to discriminate hasn't endeared them any more to me...
Wanna bet?? Howe about getting a degree from Harvard or Princeton? They are PRIVATE schools. :P
Gorkman
I don't think it means what you think it means:
When Boy Scouts exclusively use public land (school area is occupied and only for Boy Scouts)
The precedent allowing Government to open schools and public land to virtually all groups and allow their possession of it is well established. Not every group that uses public land has to bow to the government's whim and impose all government regulation on its behavior.
If the government wants to kick the Boy Scouts off, let them. But when the Boy Scouts become tenants of the land, perhaps through renting or leasing, they do have the right to exclude based on virtually any criteria they want to use, unless the landlord demands otherwise.
The Boy Scouts maintain the right to exclude and do not have to follow the religious discrimination policy because they are not the government.
I'm sorry, I know you would just love for every group to mirror your own desire, but the world's not like that.
>One scout leader, high example of morality that they are, told him to "just lie", but he would not.
/really/ that big of a lie?
>I should support a group like this?
Come on, is it
Have you never been at a family gathering or some other function, like a baseball game or something, where they said a prayer and everyone was supposed to bow their heads and pray?
What did you do? Jump up and down and scream and cry about how there is no God or did you go along and bow your head and wait for it to be over?
That's all you have to do in Scouts, too.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Ticks the "probably ain't gay" box.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Government funded museums often show "art" that is obviously anti-faith. Same with plays. PBS has shown both pro and anti religious documentaries. BSA policy on homosexuality is similar to the US Military. I suspect the military still gets government funding. The BSA, while faith based and maybe because it is faith based, is a good organization that promotes a number of positive values. Would you add a line to the GPL banning its use by Churches, Governments and the Military?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that a lot of independent and usually self-designed software is often found in local BSA sponsered slot car derby races. I remember when I was in the Scouts we had a few IT guys in the troop write (or find) the software for timing the cars when they got to the end of the track. Wonder if anyone does this anymore.
Our group is sponsored by a church. I don't recall us every having a prayer, or any religious leader saying anything about god. Our group is very inclusive, and I would say that most of our group has little involvement in religion. We just use the church.
I think our scouts get a lot out of the program. They are out camping once a month. They take extended wilderness trips. They learn skills they can use in many areas of their life, including how to deal with adults, how to deal with other difficult kids, and how to lead kids. We do a lot of service projects, and our troop probably as a group does several thousand hours of service for the community - and very little of that is done for the church where we have our meetings.
Maybe there are troops out there that push the agenda, and are right wing homophobes. But it's not our group. Even my wife, who thought boy scouts was a truly evil group, has come around to think the program is very worthwhile.
It's the local people that make it work. Donate your time to THEM if you like, don't if you don't want to.
...is the they run Windows Server 2003!
Oh the humanity!
But they do run Apache 2, so at least their opensource site is using some opensource software.
Well, they're hosting provider does anyway.
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=opensource.scouting.org
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
Believe what you want to believe. If you don't want your kids to join, then don't. If you want a similar organization, then start your own. Period.
The BSA is what it is. If you don't like it, don't support it. At least you won't find them flip flopping on issues.
Gorkman
Another Eagle here.
Religion just didn't play in our troop. We were basically a hard-core camping group - long hikes in rough terrain, mountain climbing, rappelling, building huge pioneering project structures.
Likewise there were no discussions about sexuality, either. We did have one gay kid (and I heard that he grew up to be a gay man, so it was not just that everyone thought he was "gay"), and he washed out because he did not fit in. Kids are brutal.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
I remember a requirement for the computers merit badge was to explain why it is wrong to make copies of games and commercial software. I wasn't fooled for a moment that the argument of piracy destroying software was valid, so I said something along the lines of paying for software that makes your business operate makes more sense than gaming companies losing over casual piracy.
My friends and I would distribute games where everyone pays for the games they individually contribute. We just end up buying more games and learning about games we wouldn't have known about while buying future games from the same publisher/developer. Our kid money didn't carry the same weight as adults with full-time jobs (and less time to play as many games as we did), so it only made sense to pool together to maximize our gaming dollar. Despite the technical occurrences of piracy, all the money that sierra, lucasarts, bullfrog, interplay, electronic arts, sega, and nintendo (to name but a few) got from us certainly didn't hurt them any.
For my two cents, I don't think that the BSA's homosexual discrimination policy is particularly brave.
Well said.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Please make sure you don't label "disagreement" the same thing as "hatemongering".
Another well-known "club" has a set of beliefs (based on the same book, ironically enough) whereby they don't allow blacks and Jews to join. Would you call their stance "hatemongering" or "disagreement"?
It's pretty rare (and, as you say, a little creepy) when someone goes out of their way to ask about leading a Boy Scout or Girl Scout troop. However, the way you've phrased your comment indicates that you're confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. They're two very separate things: one is normal, the other is illegal. If you find it strange that any gay man or lesbian would want to work with children, please examine your prejudices; after all, millions of straight people grow up wanting to be elementary school teachers or social workers. This has nothing to do with sound operational strategy, and everything to do with irrational fear and bigotry. Anyway, what usually happens is that a parent wants to enroll their child, but there's no active Scouting troop nearby. The parent talks to his/her neighbors, gets enough kids together to start a troop, and they end up being the Scoutmaster/GS leader. Since it's a pretty thankless job, responsibilities get passed around and/or pushed onto others. There are always chaperons and assistants needed to make a troop run well, and that's where people try to get neighbors, friends, and co-workers to help--whether they're straight or gay. Me? I'm gay, and an Eagle Scout, but I never did like camping. (That might have had something to do with 95% of my Scouting campouts involving rain, no exaggeration.) I'd help out with a troop if asked by a close friend. And, in case it wasn't abundantly clear before, I'd sooner shag a woman than look twice at a child.
got standards? --- http://www.w3.org/
You are aware that the vast majority of people that molest underage boys are men that identify as straight, don't you?
By your logic, the scout troops would be safer camping with an out gay man.
No, really. But try typing the words in a sentence, this time. With, I don't know... grammar, and stuff.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
More then just military academies. Last I checked you automatically got a bump in rank and pay once you finished boot camp if you were an Eagle Scout. I never cared so I don't know the specifics, and Wikipedia only references a bump, not to what rank.
Worse. A Scilon.
Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Attention American mods: that was a British joke, albeit a poor one. In the British Isles, a "fag" is a cigarette. Mr. AC, your joke was in poor taste, as over here in the colonies "fag" is a pejoritive term for "homosexual".
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
See the episode of Bullshit which Penn & Teller did on it. I'm sure you can find it on youtube (as least bits of it).
HAND.
As for homosexuality, I have no problem with homosexuality, but I still approve of the Boy Scouts' stance on it. Scouting is an institution that helps boys grow up to be men. It is not an institution to help boys grow up to be women
Homosexual men are not the same as nor do they aspire to be women.
I was a scout during the late 60's and early 70's. Back then there was no restriction on Homosexuals in the Scouts. While I had a wonderful time in scouting, this change to an attitude of prejudice and intolerance is NOT what I learned Scouting was about. In fact, its directly the opposite of the actual principles of the Boy Scouts. The religious bigots who manipulated the system to add this expression of hatred and intolerance to Scouting need to be kicked out of the BSA and their rules with them. No help for the BSA until they return to their former, better policies.
background info - 2 years at religious christian college, BS in Comp-Sci, married, 2 kids (Yes, I am a middle American. Would someone please kick the flaming idiot neo-cons and intolerant-hate-mongering religion-ists out of Washington DC? Please! )
For the record:
I am a Christian, but I have severe reservations about supporting a group whose purpose has nothing to do with religion excluding atheists.
Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Achievements in "private groups" don't get you brownie points on US military academy admissions.
Yale and Harvard aren't private? Damn, and here I wasted all that time at SIU! If I'd known Harvard was a state-funded school...
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Last night I played a blank tape at full volume. The mime next door went nuts.
Wow. Just wow. The gays and athiests, while bashing the BSA for excluding them, mod anyone with a dissenting viewpoint as "troll".
Your mom wants her irony back.
I have never EVER heard the kind of vitriol hurled at reigion (any religion) by slashdot athiests flung at athiests by ANY religion whatever.
Athiests and homosexuals are NOT doing your causes any good with these tactics. You may cow some, but there are those of us who will not be browbeaten.
Now excuse me, slashdot is asking me to metamoderate again.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Because they are not a government organization. Geeze that was easy. Use of public land does not mean you have to abide by government regulations regarding discrimination. The idea that you can kick groups off of public property for discrimination is pretty much as far against that whole right to assemble and free speech stuff as you can get.
Again, this has absolutely 0 to do with what I said about most of them aren't flaming assholes and it's just the flaming assholes that get the attention. And that being a flaming asshole back to them based on this is counterproductive and ignorant. But hey, we all know that all Catholics are child molestors because a few shithead priests like to touch little boys and have some asshat leaders that helped them get away with it. That only works when you ignore the thousands upon thousands of non shithead Catholics. Just like this bigotry crap only works when you ignore the thousands of non bigoted BSA associates.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
The uniform pants are made in USA, by union labor. Or, at least they used to be. I haven't actually checked that detail in a few years.
I can't imagine why someone would actually mod this hate speech up. I don't really care if I'm 'missing the point' and the parent is trying to be 'ironic', what he's saying is just stupid.
First of all, yes the general structure of the organization (at the troop level) has a resemblance to a military organization. Is this some how shocking considering it was founded by a British Lieutenant General. Imagine that, a guy going with what he knows. "origins with similar fascist programs in Europe prior to WWII" - name one. Funny enough, the scouting movement started not because Baden-Powell said 'hey lets form troops and do stuff', it was boys and girls gathering of their own volition and, per wiki, 'spontaneously formed Scout troops' and used the reference guides BP wrote earlier in the century.
So, by your argument, every single man that wants to become a teacher below the collegiate level is somehow 'weird and fishy'? You obviously don't have the first damn clue as to why someone would become a Scout leader. Most volunteer because their sons are involved in scouts and it's a good way to connect and spend quality time with them. Others because, Heaven and Hell forbid, they want to pass on their knowledge of various skills. Thanks to many such leaders, by the time I was 15 I was a modest backpacker and survivalist. Not an expert, but a damn sight better than your average person. I can still start a fire without matches (3 different ways, using only what's found in the woods), track animals, navigate by the stars alone, and do the proverbial 'living off the land'. But of course, by your reasoning, everyone that taught me anything was some creepy old man trying to jingle my change purse. In short, shut the hell up about what you know precisely jackshit about.
Does the BSA discriminate against homosexuals and atheists/agnostics? Yes, unfortunately they do and it's with a deep sense of shame that I admit that. Boy Scouts gave me some of the greatest experiences in my life and it hurts to know that there are boys and young men that will never be able to participate so long as they are true to themselves. It's even worse when potential leaders, who are nothing but good role models, are barred because they too are being true to themselves. I can't help but think of the South Park episode. Big Gay Al seemed to be doing a GREAT job as Scoutmaster, but he was booted because he was, obviously, gay. That's the kind of nonsense that's hurting the BSA more than anything. Well, that an ignorant people like you.
Most of the information being quoted here is old, and based on my current experience probably out of date.
My son joined boy scouts a couple months ago, and I signed up to be a leader. I was really surprised that nobody asked us about religion, and unlike a few years ago (when my son joined Cub Scouts) the application forms did not ask if we believed in God.
I have no idea what the national organization has to say about this, but at my local level religion is not an issue.
Actually, I'm still technically Catholic. I understand the religion. After going through Confirmation 4 years after I should have (if we were in the church at the time), I had private lessons from the Sister at our church.
She stressed that I study the bible, Catholic Books from the church Library in Indianapolis, and study other faiths as to compare between them. Fair enough. After studying further (4 years later) I choose to convert. It's not because of some kiddy diddler. It's the faith, stupid.
Just to point out that not all software engineers with intrest in slashdot and opensource and mindless drones with identical opinions. I'd like to state for the record that the policies of the boy scouts of america regarding homosexual scout masters makes me MORE likely to help them and support them NOT less.
âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
Did you expect any better from Slashdot? The moment I saw the headline I knew it would be 99% self righteous spewing of utter hate, and without a particle of irony to boot.
Things must have changed. I was a Boy Scout for years in the late 70s. No one mentioned religion even once. No one ever asked. The local troops really aren't all that concerned with what some tools at BSA central say about anything. It was just a reason to get together with friends and do stuff.
But hatemongering is easier, and pretending to actually care about the rights of others gives some folks on Slashdot a boner.
It depends on that "club," and what their stated goals are. If you are referring to the Klan, I'd have to say they are decidedly hatemongering, but that's due to their being obviously outspoken AGAINST blacks and jews. See, that's the other side of the coin: The BSA is NOT picketing court houses across the country, or burning crosses in peoples yards, or leaving black babydolls in nooses from people's trees. As soon as they start that sort of thing, they cross the line into bigotry, and deserve to be known as a hate group. Until then, they are a peaceful organization with good goals, but with opinions that not everyone agrees with.
Last night I played a blank tape at full volume. The mime next door went nuts.
hey man, i agree with you on all points but that doesn't address the amount of legal exposure which is conveniently avoided by refusing the very few men who can't find a better hobby than scouting. a big brother program isn't good enuf for them?
and i bet the girl scouts informally screen single AND married male relatives very carefully without resistance, if they are allowed at all.
Morally and ethically you are absolutely right, but as a management decision it is unnecessarily risky. Besides, everyone already knows they are religious militarist bigots, so its not like they are really losing face here. after the priest scandals they should be afraid of being immediately bankrupted by a single incident and this unfair policy offers some measure of protection from that.
> It is not an institution to help boys grow up to be women
Yeah, I see they taught you some real fine lessons. I think you just made our point.
I was a scout. The BSA can go pound sand.
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
Not when I was in.
However, it's not really all that unreasonable. Whatever you think about some policies of the BSA regarding leaders, it's generally true that kids who achieve the Eagle rank have a fair amount of drive, determination, self-reliance and leadership experience. It's not at all unreasonable to give them a shot to demonstrate that they have what it takes to be a good leader -- because odds are, they will.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
This is why I cringe when members of these groups get on their soap boxes. As much as I argue with right wingers about "no, they aren't trying to force you to accept what they do, they just want to not get treated like shit over it" anytime an athiest starts going off about how stupid religion is or when homosexuals act out in their freakshow demonstrations and parades it kinda takes the wind out of the sails in defending them. It is hard to defend people's rights when they insist on being equally fanatical about fighting anyone who disagrees with them. The sad part is at least the right wingers don't make any claim to being open and accepting to everyone.
*disclaimer* Almost all of the homosexuals I have known are resonable and sane individuals and are not flambouyant little attention whores, but that's who gets the camera time. Yet,I have only met a precious few athiests that didn't attack religion with the same illogic, hate, and vitrol that the most zealous fundamentalists use in their own attacks.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
Atheists are persecuted by religious zealots, simply for not conforming to the locally-accepted religious dogma. Atheists have accepted the truth that there is no God, and they are punished for this every time they slip up and let some God-fearing person know that. Atheists are harassed and ridiculed for their beliefs, but this seems to be OK, because "they don't believe in God, so they have no religion to have freedom of." That's the position of the courts, as well.
Atheists are vehement because you stupid Christians won't leave us alone in our unbelief. Yeah, go ahead, bristle at me for calling you stupid. Anyone who believes that a cosmic jewish zombie who endorses ritualized cannibalism can save their (non-existant, or at least unprovable) "soul" for use in happy slavery later (have you *read* your precious Bible? I didn't make any of this up!) is a complete and utter moron, and gullible to boot. Go ahead, be upset that I called you a moron. Now, taste the irony when you get mad at me for "hate speech", when I'm only pissed in the first place because you cussed me out for not believing in your psychotic mythology, and for having the gall to mow my grass on Sunday.
Wow. This was supposed to be a simple explanation of why Atheists are so violently opposed to religion in general, and it turned into a ranting diatribe against Christianity. Looks like I need to dial back the anger a bit.
On the other hand, It is awesome that so many of you who bash this organization are probably also big time 1st amendment thumpers. I guess if someone has a different opinion than you, you don't support THEIR 1st amendment rights. Or maybe we are just tired of defending ourselves against oppressive religions that don't believe in our right to be left alone, free of all the God-fearing mumbo-jumbo, free of unearned guilt, freedom to think our own thoughts.
I have a serious question for you. Why is it that we're not allowed to blame God when bad things occur, but we should praise him for random good things happening? Either it's his fault or it's not, eh? When you have an actual answer for that question (no, I want one that makes sense, I don't wanna hear about genderless winged people that can impregnate a middle-aged "virgin" with a mythical man-in-the-sky's love child after tricking a poor farmer into letting them sleep with his wife), then we can talk about the rest of the list.
One of the biggest issues I have with the Christian mythology is that we're supposed to accept things on faith... kinda like a 2,000 year old "who are you gonna believe, me or your own eyes?" Makes you seem like a gullible sap, if you think about it too long, so don't do it if you value your faith.
The other big issue, to me, is the "love your neighbor, or we'll fucking kill you" bit. The only religious zealots more violent than Christians are Muslims, and (coincidence?) those two have been fighting each other for a couple thousand years.
Ok, so my 2 cents turned into a nickel. So?
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
>Using the word "homophobia" in regard to a legal choice to beleive one's religion is HATE speech
Watch and learn. This is how "hate speech" laws will get used in real life. Bigots love to paint themselves as the persecuted party, and they have the political muscle to ram prosecutions through.
(What religion is that, by the way? If it believes in Leviticus 20:13 then it believes in the death penalty for homosexuals).
It's interesting how people form a decision, and then quit paying attention as times (and organizations) change. The BSA's membership and leadership applications no longer ask if you believe in God. The troop that my son just joined doesn't ask (or care) about religion.
Please provide some evidence that the current BSA leadership and policies still takes the position that you accuse them of.
Could someone please compute:
P(molests underage boys | identifies as gay)
--over--
P(molests underage boys | identifies as straight)
And while you're at it, could you compute:
P("homosexual" has actual meaning | "homosexual" does not refer to men who like boys)?
Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
I am missing your point here. Are you saying it is ok to assume that all Catholics are kiddy diddlers or are you making the argument that not all Catholics are kiddy diddlers despite the media attention(which would also entail accepting that not all BSA members are bigots despite the media attention). Personally it looks like you are saying something completely tangent to any of this in an effort to call me stupid over your choice in faith because I mentioned "Catholics" specifically.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
All I know about the Scouts is what I learned from Matt and Trey and the kids from South Park. But I forgot what they told me my opinion is...
Disclaimer: I'm not gay.
Scouting is an institution that helps boys grow up to be men. It is not an institution to help boys grow up to be women
Your ignorance is showing. Homosexuality has to do with being sexually attracted to the same sex, not with wanting to be a different sex. IMO the BSA should stay out of people sexuality; straight, gay, or otherwise.
"It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything." -Homer Simpson
Free-speech cuts both ways. Local government seems to have no problem supporting the Boy Scouts' policies.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/648019/posts
But don't they realize that many in the OpenSource community are either Atheist or Gay? And if not, sympathies with them?
I would say that until the Boy Scouts changes its position on Gays and Atheists that no one in OpenSource should even give them an eyeblink.
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
i like your argument in terms of why aren't single men kept out as well. THAT i think could be a clever and effective counterpunch to BSA's policy.
i agree, and i was an eagle scout too, but look at it from the perspective of a jury, or a plaintiff.
i agree that it is an unfair, crude, even criminalizing generalization they are making, but i don't think the world is ready to fairly interpret it as such in any situation after the fact.
I think BSA probably made its policy based in its conservative god-fearing lunacy. the question is can they justify this decision by claiming they are reducing risk to children, and i think that angle, however flawed by not including single men and/or a careful background check of some sort, will float with much of America.
furthermore, with a loose-knit, national, volunteer organization clear rules with broad strokes are often the only way to set policy. BSA can't afford the time, money, or get requisite expertise to run background checks etc...
You wish the world was nicer, and you say you have no problem with homosexuality, but your comments make it sound like you really feel exactly the opposite.
I agree with you that religion had very little to do with my Scouting experience as well.
Yes, scouts are an ill-suited place for anyone who is different. So are every other youth organization, because kids are cruel. They root out differences and make the most of them to make themselves look 'cool'. That's no reason to take a stance against homosexuality. It doesn't protect anyone because gays are still in Scouts and always will be. Many kids may not have even figured out yet that they were gay while they're that young.
I also take issue with the comment about gay boys growing up to be women (again, counterproductive to your claim that you are not anti-homosexual), and that scouts teaches boys to become men. I don't recall that being in the handbook at all. It certainly was never stressed. What was stressed for us all throughout, and while I was a leader for a few years was learning leadership skills, thinking for yourself, making your own decisions, honoring your fellow man, etc. Basically instilling all of the values of the golden rule (do unto others/etc), and trying to make sure that 'graduates' of the program have strong values and basic knowledge of leadership and how groups work to be able to function in the real world among other types of groups.
Do we really need to know how to tie a bowline or know that cleaning a cast iron pot with soap is normally a bad idea? Not really. The knowledge itself will come in handy a few times in our lives, but more then that is the fact that we learned it from other kids just a couple years older then us, and we in turn taught it to younger kids as we grew older. That method of learning how to actually teach and lead others, and respect others enough to help them is probably the single largest aspect of Scouts.
That whole concept of helping others is completely dead set against their policy of ostracizing any gay scouts that they ever hear about.
As an Eagle Scout (and current heterosexual lapsed Catholic) I feel sorry for the Scouting Organization. They're deeply in bed with their major supporter, the Mormon Church. And they've been told, in no uncertain words, that if they even unofficially allows gays or atheists/agnostics, they cut off all their funding. And we're talking about more than a couple million bucks here.
Yes, they could say "go to hell". But then when the funding dries up, and they have to close 3/4 of all their facilities, exactly how large of an impact (positive or otherwise) can they have on the boys they deal with?
It's nice to hear so many people who think they should cut off their nose to spite their face. And, on a certain level, I DO agree with this sentiment. I simply thing they do more good the way they are than if they hobbled themselves.
Scouting is about developing as a PERSON. Not a Christian, not gay or straight, a person. Sexuality has exactly (excuse the pun) DICK to do with the equation. And even religion, other than pointing out that a person should be moral and upright as they can manage, is only a very VERY small factor (or at least was for me).
Personally, I would have no qualms about having a fellow Scout who didn't believe (or wasn't sure of) the existence of God. As long as they act within the spirit (if you're pardon the expression) of Scouting, they could be a freaking Scientologist for all I care. What they subscribe to (or fail to subscribe to) within their religious life has little to do with me.
Also, other than a mild discomfort that's due to social conditioning and that I haven't totally shaken off, I really have no legitimate bitches about having fellow Scouts who may be non-heterosexual. Sadly, when I was younger and slightly more immature, I probably would have been less "understanding". Again, social programming and the fact that I was in my early to mid teens and not really an expert on my own sexuality yet, so I probably wouldn't have been the best person to come to for a frank discussion on one's choice of sexual identity.
Okay...now where was I...damn moral rants...
Anyhoo, I think that if something like what they want exists, great. Use it, have fun.
If anyone wants to develop stuff for them, great. Use it, have fun.
If they simply want cost-free software and development time to suit their own needs, no. Sorry. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 200 merit badges.
If anyone has personal issues with their social policy, don't develop for them. If they use a project you've contributed time/code/money to? Suck it up and drive on or contribute to a new project.
THIS! IS! FREE SOFTWARE!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I was an openly-agnostic Boy Scout with openly-agnostic parents. My own experience was mixed.
Things inside the troop were great. We camped, hiked, built bridges with only rope and wood poles (3 wrappings, 4 frappings), hiked through deserts with nothing but a compass, map & the pack on our back. In short, my Boy Scout life focused on all those adventures that Boy Scouts should have. I'm thrilled that I had the opportunity for that week-long canoe camping trip, snorkeling in the Pacific and all those opportunities to stare at the crystal-clear stars in the sky.
I was in the same troop from ages 13-18, a leader in the troop, Senior patrol leader for 3 years, etc. This troop had a proud tradition going back to 1946. Just about everyone in the troop was Christian, including our Scoutmaster. I always felt included, and I can't remember any conflicts with my Troop Leadership about religion.
This was just in my Boy Scout Troop. When I went outside my Troop and interacted with the Boy Scout Council leadership, the leadership was definitely focused on their own interpretations of what "Morally Straight" or what "duty to God". This was in the late 1980's, and I think the BSA introduced the "Declaration of Religious Principle" after my time.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
The correct way to respond to the sort of bigoted speech that the Boy Scouts use is not to shut up and let them continue, nor is it to censor them - the right thing to do is to use MORE speech - and that's what you are seeing here people standing up for what they believe in, supporting their friends (athiest and gay) that the scouts discriminate against
I was a scout - but my son will not be unless they can accept him (we're athiests), or his gay school friends, or his half brother with the 2 moms - nor will I support the scouts in any way until they join the real world
I believe their policy about gays is motivated by trying to ensure that doesn't happen.
Pedophiles are more likely to be heterosexual family members than gay men. (The gender of the child abused has little to do with the gender of the adults the person would choose to have relations with.)
By ensuring that scout leaders are exclusively heterosexual family members of a scout, they are in fact increasing the odds that children will be abused.
Oh, and for implying that gay men will abuse boys: fuck you too. You can rot in hell.
I really didn't get very involved in this. I felt that the kid learned something important from it, and I wasn't too upset by his choice. I certainly don't want to teach him that the thing to do is find a troupe where the local parents disregard the stated objectives of the groups official leaders. That was some years ago, and I'm much happier with the route he went than if he had participated in the hyprocacy.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
As for homosexuality, I have no problem with homosexuality.... It is not an institution to help boys grow up to be women.
Obviously you don't have any problems with homosexuality.
What does it matter what orientation someone is? If they want to become a Scout leader it's because they want to pass on their Scouting knowledge and help shape the lives of young boys, not because they want to "help boys grow up to be women". I have plenty of gay friends that do manly things. In fact, there's a good chance some of them have you beat on the "manliness" scale.
Help find a cure for cancer!
Sometimes my chosen peer group embarrasses me. This is one of those times.
======================================
Writers get in shape by pumping irony.
Hehe, well I didn't mean any of my stuff as a direct thing against you. It just pisses me off when such groups like the BSA trot out such nonsense as if it justifies their bigotry. And then right afterwards they will demand that they get taxpayer money and access to government services to further propagate it.
"...infiltration by Mormon's"? wow, last time I checked, the BSA was pretty equally split in its support between the Catholics, Methodists and yes, Mormons. All three of these groups offer a great deal of financial backing because as a whole the scouting program is very expensive as a whole to run. I did not see the Penn and Teller special, so I cannot speak to it. When I want information I go to the source and not to a biased or agenda based show for my facts. I am an Eagle Scout, and have been a scout leader for over eleven years, and yes, I am LDS. I for the most part I liked your post; how it focused on the positive aspects of scouting - how it can give structure and guidance to young men who are still defining who they are. I was just thrown by the 'infiltrated' part - as far as I know, we don't dictate what the scouting program actual IS, we use it for the excellent program that it offers our youth; teaching skills, service and the basis for a moral based life. Powell was an amazing man and he laid the foundation for a great program. Back to the actual point of the original article, what a great opportunity for some skilled programmers to help a group that does its best to help guide youth. PS - I am not posting AC, but appreciate your reasons.
This discussion has been so one sided, it would be nice if a more moderate opinion got some attention.
The point is they shouldn't have to lie.
So you got that "having sex with females" merit badge? I only went through "Star" scout, but I don't recall a single scouting activity that depended on my ability to have the hots for women. Scouting is a place that has no need to reference sexual orientation at all. It has, collectively, no need or ability to affect the sexual orientation of its members. Why exactly it has decided to have the desire is beyond me.
As a child I was part of the scout troop that met in the basement of my church. As an adult, I have becoime an atheist. But I will forever have the deepest respect for the church I grew up in for at least one reason: In the aftermath of the referenced court decision, they reflected upon their Christian values, and kicked the scouts to the curb.
This is one of the better comments so far.. and from a teenager.
So there are special checkboxes for these on the academy entrance forms are there?
Don't talk trash about something you obviously have no clue about.
Slashbots can be such morons sometimes...
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
If it's on Wikipedia it must be true, right? Wikipedia says they may get a bump, which is fair because I knew a lot of screwups who still managed to get Eagle Scout. In fact I know of one who was stationed on a nuclear sub. But that's a different story. I was told numerous times about the automatic bump, but that could have just been a myth that everybody just assumed was true. I never saw it written anywhere.
Here's the text:
Eagle Scouts who enlist in the U.S. military may receive advanced rank in recognition of their achievements
Linky
Our church has their own program that is similar to Boy/Girl scouts, solely because we as a church body do not agree with many of the Scouts' principles. Plus it becomes a tool to get into the finer aspects of religion. When you mix people from 10 different Christian backgrounds, you really have to dumb it down to hit a common denominator (a Catholic and a Lutheran can agree Jesus is great, but now start talking about communion, and you have arguments about transubstantiation and real presence). When you keep it within your church body you can hit on the finer points and really teach the kids as they have fun.
Anyways our program is called the Lutheran Pioneers, with a similar program for the girls. Similar to boy scouts: lots of camping, fishing, hiking, pine car derbys, along with practical knowledge, daily-life religion lessons and volunteerism.
Our church also runs other activities aimed at teens in high school and college that mix with the pioneers and encourage other kids who don't want to be involved, including a network of summer camps and festivals.
these are all very fair criticisms. i'm starting to think my initial generalization is indefensible. the broad rule that would make most sense is that only men who have a child in the troop can participate. this would prevent unrelated single men and allow gay men with children in the troop.
what i was trying to get at is that the population who is allowed to be a scoutmaster has to be controlled somehow, and generalizing gays as one of these groups is, while crude and unfair, one simple way of notching out part of the risky population.
Putting aside questions of BSA social policy for the moment, what do they need software for that isn't already available? It strikes me that what they need are people to train Scouts/Leaders as admins and system integrators. That's a heck of a lot harder to come by than source.
22 comments at +5 right now and every one (except for the Business Software Alliance jokes) is about the BSA's religious and sexual policies. I don't think I'll be able to steer this back to any meaningful technical conversation, but I'm curious how many former and current scouts we have here? Despite their bad policies (which started to "come out" (so to speak) around the time I was finishing) it's still an otherwise good organization and a lot of people, myself included (Eagle Scout from T178 here) have had good experiences with them.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Agreed. The scouts I joined were tolerant and the focus was on leadership and exploration, not exclusion and morals. I earned eagle, I was given Vigil, and I now self-identify as LGBT. Working with the Scouts rubs far to hard against my moral grain to ever consider volunteering or donating to them.
They've made it clear that they think I'm too immoral to help their program anymore, despite giving me every award they have as a youth. I will always be thankful of the years of great experience I had with the organization, but it is no longer the organization it was when I was a youth.
A lot of people here had good experiences in the Boy Scouts, but what they have failed to realize is that with most of these kinds of organisations, bigotry and hate alone will not make people come back to your meeting and listen to more.
The fun that is had at the scouts by many is in effect, bait. Bait to lure you in and accept their "core values". Take a look at the scout oath:
No doubt many view the whole passage as something innocuous, inspirational or simply cute. Me personally, I take it for what it is; An Oath. I know you had a lot of fun nights of scouting, and would like to dismiss or forget the fact that you swore that you had a duty to "God" and your country. That you swore to obey the "Scout Law", whatever that may be. I know you think my points are invalid because you simply cannot in your own mind associate those fun times with something sinister or subversive.
That is the whole point of the parent poster.
The very purpose of those fun wholesome times you had was so that now, you would be disoriented, confused and ultimately dismissive of any argument against the Boy Scouts. Look a the picture on their front page. I know that you see something entirely harmless. A picture of a bunch of swell guys, doing their part for Afghanistan. I know that you'll never see anything else, despite what it actually is.
It's a military recruitment poster.
The scout were, are and probably always will be a feeder organization for the military. It was the stated purpose of their creation. It is their unstated purpose to this day. It is a sexually segregated, scaled down military recruitment camp. It works. America is the most militant developed country in the world. Fun times and good memories of boy scout camps have played their part in that.
May the Maths Be with you!
The Scouting Organization is an organization to help boys become normal men. This includes dealing with all the issues of normal adolescence encountered along the way. It collectively has no provision, ability, nor desire to help boys grow up to be homosexuals, or deal with homosexual issues of adolescence encountered along the way.
Really. I don't remember there being a merit badge for dating (or insert the slang copulation synonym of your choice) women.
Seriously, what about being a Boy Scout is straight-specific? If anything, I'd think a gay boy would be even more qualified to be a Boy Scout, because they should be less disappointed about being stuck out in the woods with only boys for a week. They could try to recruit their boyfriends to try out scouting, and they'd never miss an activity for a date.
I was a boy scout all the up until 17, when I found out Atheists aren't welcome. I was really bugged by this, and I was working at a scout camp before I just gave up and resigned. I didn't feel like I was in place, despite being a scout since whatever the hell is the minimum age for cub scouts. I just realized that what I was doing was wrong, and even though I might have had the best summer of my life up there teaching kids about earth sciences, I just couldn't stay there in a place where gays and atheists aren't welcome or accepted as "normal" people. I too was old to just not bring it up, or that it doesn't matter, but after a few nights of sitting around singing old bible folk songs, I just couldn't stay. I really hope that the BSA changes their policies, especially since they are a organization that takes federal funding and still openly discriminates. I would hope that no one helps such an organization until things change.
*WOOSH*
Yes, you can.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
I took over web master duties for my son's Pack 1723 and immediately switched to Drupal, and the whole pack loves it! Of course I haven't actually done more than implement it and some add-ons, haven't "given back" by coding, but then again I don't code anyway so it's a moot point. Enough babbling...
Jonah HEX
Horror & SciFi Erotic Nudes
The uniforms are very strong and durable. By durable, one should be able to make a stretcher using 3-4 shirts and 2 hiking sticks (or poles).
A proprietary closed club wants help with FOSS. Almost like Microsoft asking Linus for suggestions.
I wouldn't personally help them until they move more toward the center and loose all their political stuff and the homo bigotry.
I understand the private club rules argument that private parties can do anything they want. And I support that. But then they also want access to schools and want to use government lands with special privileges at the same time. That I don't agree with. One or the other but not both. And as far as helping them with FOSS, nope. Not until they loose JMHO.
-[d]-
I don't mean this to sound condescending or flippant, because that's not my intent, but what's the idea behind Unitarian Universalists?
From what I understand, the UU is the most laid back church on the planet. If you want to believe that Jesus is the son of God, cool. If you don't, hey, that's fine too. You want to believe in animistic spirits? We've got a pew just for you. Think all of this is a load of crap? Hey, we're having a potluck next week that you might be interested in.
From the outside it strikes me as kind of the church people join when they want fellowship and community a church gives, but none of dogma. Not that that's a bad thing. It's cool that something like that exists, but it does seem kind of grab-baggy, or The First Church of the Potpourri, if you will.
And if that's the case, why should it be any different with Gays and Atheists?
Or perhaps one group is more deserving than another?
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
I would also be very, very happy to be able to help the Boy Scouts. I was in the BSA for many years, but since I self-identify as gay, and am not willing to lie in order to be eligible to *volunteer* my time and experience.
Boy Scouts gave me some of the best experiences of my adult life, but also taught me that I can't decide how to behave based on what other people do -- just because some people are willing to shove their morals down the tubes doesn't mean that I should.
A homopohobe? What is that, a transgendered homeless man or something?
Advice: on VPS providers
Well, yes, it has to be controlled somehow, but limiting it to some artificial threshhold is silly. You don't disqualify teachers because they're single and male. The problem is that any simple litmus test will remove a significant portion of the population without actually addressing the problem. In this case the problem is one of possible child abuse and molestation.
Removing single men, gays, or men who don't have children in the group will do nothing to address that problem. At a total guess, I would think the % of child abusers pretty much cuts across all such stereotypes and holds steady no matter which group you choose.
I was once a cub scout a long time ago, but was not aware of the BSA policies at the time.
But as a strong supporter of Gays and being an ardent Atheist myself, I find BSA policies very noisome and unacceptable, and I would not let my kids be involved with such a bigoted organization.
Not that it matters to my kids, though -- they are both girls. :-)
Ruby Neural Evolution of Augmenting Topologies
No organization that to my knowledge discriminates against Atheists and Gays will get my assistance
Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
Clearly, pedophilia and homosexuality are different things. However, regardless of what you "identify" with, if you engage in sexual behavior with someone of the same sex it's homosexual behavior. So is a person who says he's straight, but touches a 14 year old boy, "straight" or "gay"? Maybe he's neither, and we should stop using labels on people and just call perversions perversions because they're not the norm?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Huh... poor me I never had a gay mentor teach me to act campy! Ah well... guess I'll forever be just the guy who gives not recieves.
Hmm... Or, You've some odd notions of gender, and sex. Gay penises don't curl and go vagina on us, and well most women DON'T like it up the butt.
On a perhaps more serious note, what on earth makes you think gays need to learn how to act properly? It's a gender preference, NOT a 12 step training program...
Incidentally, what would become of bisexuals, and lesbians?
Pretty big CERT advisory today and all slashdot has to say is that they will never support BSA because they don't accept gays.
This has become a social site not more nothing less.
I think we generally agree. Scouting is not the place to discuss sex. Adults simply don't raise the subject, and when boys raise it, they should be told to go to their parents or clergy. And, any scouter who doesn't understand that need to be educated or excluded.
Have you ever seen a scouter, anywhere, greet his or her spouse with a kiss or a touch? Why weren't they kicked out?
When you say it isn't bigotry, that is just not true. It plainly is bigotry. If you were merely expressing your religious beliefs, you could also respect the religious beliefs of others. The fact that you flatly refuse to respect the religious beliefs of others is what makes it bigotry.
The 12th point of the scout law says that "a scout is reverent". The explanation in the handbook has said, for almost a hundred years, that a scout respects the religious beliefs of all other people. Not just of people who believe the same things, but of all other people.
The real problem is that your church has made scouting into something that cannot be used by many other churches, or by any public institution. By requiring all scouting units to enforce your particular interpretation of "moral values", to the exclusion of the interpretations of other churches, your church has made it impossible for public schools and many other churches to sponsor units.
And, in the process, you may have killed the BSA. It isn't dead yet. But if the membership keeps falling for a few more years, it will be.
And you think being homosexual is abnormal. How about being chinese american? I that normal enough for you? 'Normal' is a subjective term and it is only your opposition to homosexuality that leads you to single out that one subset of society for discrimination.
It would be like going to a model train club and expecting help to build radio controlled airplanes. It's not their forte.No it would be like going to a government funded model train club while black and expecting to build model trains with everyone else, instead of being told that black kids aren't normal enough to be model train engineers.
I'm openly heterosexual. My wife and kids come visit me at work. I kiss her goodbye when she leaves. It's obvious I am heterosexual. At no point do I talk to my coworkers or children about sex.
A person who is openly gay, is not by definition talking about sex anymore than I am. It means they are not in the closet.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
Glad I could help.
Haha, right, yeah, while I agree with you and all there, Slick, I don't think you're really thinking logically here. Thinking logically would lead you to the obvious conclusion that there is no persecution of the Boy Scouts of America. There is widespread disagreement with it having been usurped by religious fundamentalists and largely diverted from its original goals (At a top level. Local troops do often vary in their enforcement of the core "values" now held by this organization). I was an Eagle scout before my parents moved up to Washington from California, and it was good fun where I may have learned lessons but more importantly I was in a good environment with good people. I want everyone to be able to participate in the camaraderie that scouts used to be about.
Again, the only persecution going on around here relates to the Boy Scouts telling atheist/homosexual children that they are not worthy and are to be excluded and shunned. I and others are not engaging in persecution by demanding this bigotry ends or they find new ways to fund their activities. Not in our name, these tax dollars are not to be spent on this. Get out of here with this ridiculous notion that speaking out against these damaging policies falls under any definition of persecution:
"We invented personal computing." - Bill Gates
Athiest, now, are generally the most adamant about making other people belive like them than the reverse (Dawkins, Brown, etc).
Yes, they write books hoping to persuade people based on their arguments - the horror!
Some of the most outspoken atheist have made statements to the effect that religon should be forced out of existance by the government through a muliplicty of methods (taxation, banning signage, criminalizing religious speech).
Who has said this?
Your brain is not a computer.
Well worded, I'd mod you up but alas, I used the last of my point yesterday. You should register.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
If you pay taxes you support the BSA, dolt. They receive government money, how hard is that that to understand? How is one supposed to stop supporting them, refuse to pay any taxes? And as for flip-flopping, BSA policy strictly forbade scout masters from making any sort of effort to indoctrinate kids with any of this crap the new Mormon leaders push so hard.
And ugh, I can't believe you'd try to paint it in a positive light that a private organization with government funding is pushing an unrelated agenda that excludes so many from participation for no good reason whatsoever. You've got some problems if you do think that there's anything productive to be had in excluding these interested and enthusiastic youngsters.
"We invented personal computing." - Bill Gates
Did you tell him your opinion of him - that he shouldn't be allowed in the scouts, and you think he's not a normal man, and therefore must be trying to be a woman?
Yet you're afraid to let them near your children, and afraid that they might make your children turn out just like them...
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
1) The Crusades were a response to the Islamic Jihad that conquered 50% of the Christian lands and forced them to convert to Islam. All of North Africa and most of the Middle East was Christian before the first jihad.
2) The Spanish Inquisition was instigated and run by the Spanish government, not the church. The Pope was blackmailed into starting it, opposed it, and had no control over it. Ironically, the Spanish Inquisition never targeted people who openly professed non-Christian religions. It only targeted people who professed Catholicism, but practiced a different religion.
3) The Jewish Blood Libel is a function of European anti-semitism.
4) Many of these groups were at war with Christian nations. Until a few centuries ago, it was accepted around the world that conquered peoples had no such rights, and Muslims have been far, far more brutal than Christians in this respect. Ever wonder why Zoroastrianism is so small it makes Judaism look like a major world religion?
5) Abortion clinic bombings are carried out by a minority of anti-abortion activists. Furthermore, while most Christians regard abortion as murder, they also are willing to cooperate with the government to stop those who commit murder to stop abortion.
You, my deluded friend, need to stop repeating the same old, tired bullshit propaganda. Maybe if you knew something about history, you would know that more Christians died in the Spanish Red Terror than in the Spanish Inquisition (nearly 7,000 for the former, nearly 2,000 for the latter which lasted about 300 years!)
Well, yes. It makes it possible, for a start. But if you happen to be heterosexual, why would you WANT the Boy Scouts of America to guide you in the process of growing up to be a homosexual man?
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
This is a story about the Boy Scouts of America, and the comments decrying their policy are talking about the Boy Scouts of America. Don't worry yourself, The Scout Association has no association with the BSA.
"We invented personal computing." - Bill Gates
By this logic then, it should be okay for a single gay man to lead a girl scout troop (or a single gay woman to lead a boy scout troop).
Funny, your sense of the world. Its quaint how history, nature, biology, psychology and simple kindness - blurs your imaginary lines. Got yer ignorance badge, scout?
>Oh, so fucking girls is part of the scout program? Because that's what you're implying.
/leaders/, even though they may be out-of-touch with the adolescent issues of normal sexuality in youths, they are adults, and I have full confidence that even with the lack of understanding of heterosexual adolescence they'd be fine leaders, all else being equal.
"Fucking girls", as you put it, or, as I'd put it, dealing with normal adolescent sexuality, most certainly was a part of my Scouting experience. While not official "sex ed" type of discussions, most certainly there were discussions about sex while trudging along through the woods. I always got a laugh that my parents put me in Scouting because it was a "Good, Wholesome Activity", and yet I learned most of my cuss words, dirty jokes, and yes, about sex through Scouting.
>Unless you are saying that gay boys' sexual preferences have such far-reaching consequences that they cannot
>intermingle with straight guys and learn to start fires with rocks or kill bears or whatever. Which I can totally
>understand - I find it hard to understand what people who prefer blondes are saying when they talk to me, for instance.
I have no doubt that gay kids can learn to intermingle with straight guys and learn to start fires with rocks and all the other things that Scouting offers.
What I do doubt is that they will ever fit in to the Scouting environment. I also do not believe they will be adequately supported with the adolescent issues of growing up gay.
On reflection, I will note here that I don't really have a problem with gay Scout
Maybe if there were more homosexual Scout leaders there would be a better support base for homosexual Scouts. Something for me to think about.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Athiest, now, are generally the most adamant about making other people belive like them than the reverse (Dawkins, Brown, etc).
Ah, yes, Charlemagne's campaigns, the Spanish Inquisition, the Reformation, all those thousands of Jews and Lutherans and Anabaptists tortured or burnt at the stake, the persecution of the Unitarians and Universalists, all that doesn't count - only the people Stalin killed count, because Stalin was an atheist!My ancestors came to this country to escape religious persecution. My wife's ancestors were burnt out of their homes in England by Catholic mobs. But hey, God told them to do all that stuff so it's obviously OK.
Now, atheists, on the other hand - what's their excuse? Why, they've slaughtered nearly
>Yet you're afraid to let them near your children, and afraid that they might make your children turn out just like them...
Absolutely not. I believe sexuality is inborn and that we have little control over it - I believe it is likely genetic.
I do not believe people can be "turned" gay. Every gay person I've ever asked (and I've had several gay friends over the years) has told me they did not choose to be gay, and I'm not surprised - I never chose to be heterosexual.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
So back to the main topic.... I'm a volunteer webmaster for the Boy Scouts and we use Drupal for a number of our web sites. It's working out really well and has cut the time I have to spend posting content dramatically resulting in better information overall. Also, I can delegate pages to other contributors to maintain while maintaining overall control of the site structure. We recently added a forum site for all our districts to use. Wish list for Drupal modules: * A easier way to publish contact lists for volunteers that safeguards emails from spambots. * A module to implement a wish list for donations for camp events (stuff like felt, glue, tape, leather, etc) or construction materials like bricks and cement for improvements. I'm sure there's more, but those are my immediate challenges.
>Did you tell him your opinion of him - that he shouldn't be allowed in the scouts,
>and you think he's not a normal man, and therefore must be trying to be a woman?
It wasn't until years later that I knew for certain he was gay, when he confided to me that he had had sex with other men.
There is no need for me to bring up the abnormality of his sexuality, I'm sure he's smart enough to understand that the statistically normal condition is heterosexuality.
I'm not sure when I was 18 if I would have been able to articulate the problems that I now see of homosexuality in Scouting, so I don't know what I would have said to him if I knew he was gay.
Probably nothing. We had another kid in our troop who was very effeminate, and I found out that he did, in fact, grow up to be a gay man. I was pretty sure of that even knowing him as a kid of 15 or so. He caught absolute hell from the rest of the boys in the troop. They made jokes about him to his face and behind his back, despite my efforts and chastisements that they should not pick on him so. Ultimately he left the troop and I'm not surprised, he was probably miserable.
Honestly, this is my basis for supporting Scouting's stance on homosexuality. Scouting as an organization has no support mechanism for gay youth. Obviously it is rejected (foolishly) on the grounds of "morality", but for whatever reason, they don't have a support mechanism for it. And the kids, mostly being of the usual sexual orientation, won't support them, either, and in fact, my experience has shown they will brutalize them.
It's just not a gay-friendly place, and I don't think it will be even if official policy changes. I don't know how to change that.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
So you're promoting specific religious beliefs. Have fun with that. Now tell me, why should someone who does not hold the same beliefs give you free labor so you can spend more money promoting that religion? More importantly, how is it just that the government take my money from me, at gunpoint if need be, and uses it to promote your religion?
Would it be fair if someone taxed you and used that money to promote services for people with last names longer than eight characters. After all, people with short last names are untouchables and don't deserve benefits as many gods have told us.
>Well, yes. It makes it possible, for a start. But if you happen to be heterosexual, why would you
>WANT the Boy Scouts of America to guide you in the process of growing up to be a homosexual man?
I don't know how an organization that guides normal boys to grow up to be normal young men could not do so. Sex is always a topic of discussion among teenage boys, and Scouts is no exception. On more than one occasion I remember those discussions involving adults in the group, and I'm talking up-and-up stuff here, not pedo stuff.
If you've got an organization dealing with boys 10.5 to 18 years old, you're going to have discussions about sex somewhere along the way, formally or otherwise.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Being chinese american is not statistically "normal" either. It is not the common condition. Thus, the analogy is perfectly appropriate.
Except being black has no bearing on your ability to play with model trains, or anything else. Being homosexual has a large bearing on the ability of the Boy Scouts of America to guide you in the process of growing up to be a homosexual man.The boy scouts are a camping and paramilitary survivalist organization, not a making heterosexual men organization. Or so they claim. What do you think a "scout" is?
The way you're getting defensive and trying to rationalize away my analogy is interesting. Starting to feel uncomfortable about your prejudice and intolerance? I hope so.
>Really. I don't remember there being a merit badge for dating (or insert the slang copulation synonym of your choice) women.
How old were you when you got out of Scouting? I assure you, merit badges or not, any group of teenage boys is going to have discussions about sex, official or otherwise. Scouting is no exception.
>Seriously, what about being a Boy Scout is straight-specific?
Nothing, except the ability to fit in and feel understood and accepted by your peers and mentors. I believe this is a crucial aspect to Scouting and without it not only will you get nothing out of the experience but you will probably leave shortly on your own anyway. This is what I saw happen to a gay scout in my troop.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems. Jeez, talk about projecting. A guy talks about having friendly discussions about his beliefs, and you accuse him of "screaming". Dude, you're the one who's screaming.
Your tactic seems to be pretty popular. Talk about an unpopular idea, or cuddle your same-sex partner in public, or whatever, and people start ranting about your "agenda".
But hey, I guess I can't blame you. Time was when you could beat people up when they said or did something that pissed you off. Now "political correctness" has walled off this option. So you have to express your anger somehow. But you should know, it makes you look like a real asshole.
>Being chinese american is not statistically "normal" either. It is not the common condition. Thus, the analogy is perfectly appropriate.
/leaders/. There are no developmental issues going on with them, and assuming they are otherwise normal, rational adults, even though they would lack perspective on normal teenage adolescence I'm sure they would make fine Scout Leaders.
Except completely non-sequitur. I can see no way how being a Chinese American would adversely affect their Scouting experience, unless there was some kind of xenophobia in their troop. Across Scouting as a whole, I have not seen this to be the case.
>The boy scouts are a camping and paramilitary survivalist organization, not a making heterosexual men organization.
>Or so they claim. What do you think a "scout" is?
The Boy Scouts are indeed a camping and paramilitary survivalist organization. But if you don't think it also supports teenage boys growing up into men deal with heterosexual issues, you're wrong, because it does.
>The way you're getting defensive and trying to rationalize away my analogy is interesting.
>Starting to feel uncomfortable about your prejudice and intolerance? I hope so.
I don't think it's a prejudice. I am uncomfortable with my intolerance. It's a shitty situation, and I am enjoying the discussion and introspection, despite the fact that everyone wants to crucify me. I am, in fact, questioning my stance on this position. I am very solidly certain, however, that no matter what official policy of the BSA may be, I think openly gay scouts are going to have a hard time fitting into Scouting.
You may have seen in another posting, that I would not have a problem with gay scout
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Back when I was a scout (not the US mutation), a core element of activities was bushcraft. We had to build our own fires, shelters, bridges, atom bomb etc.
It sounds like what they really need is an Open Source Programming merit badge, emblazoned with the GNU; bonus points if you build your own OS.
There are a few open LAMP record keeping packages available, but they don't have access to ScoutNet. Until BSA National rethinks their approach to ScoutNet, there's not much to talk about.
Sex, God, and Policy: The Boy Scouts require belief in a higher power, and that sexuality be kept out of the program. So do the Girl Scouts. For better or worse, the LDS adopted the BSA as their boys youth program. Since every Mormon boy is strongly encouraged to participate, and since Scouting as a whole is smaller than it once was, the result is that the LDS is about a quarter of the Scout membership, and holds a veto on policy.
Both the GSA and BSA were faced with the issue of addressing gays and non-theists. The Girl Scouts finessed it by stating that expressions of sexuality had no place in the program (basically: don't ask, don't tell), and allowing substituting another word or phrase for "God" in the Oath and Promise.
The Boy Scouts could have used the same tactics. Buddhists and Jains were accepted into Scouting decades ago, based on the idea that the word "God" also represents Dharma, and cut "belief" loose from strict Judeo-Christian dogma. Allowing for the differences of opinion in any large organization, if a boy will at least entertain the idea that there is a system of truth and right larger than he, he's basically good to go. Since Scouts and their leaders aren't supposed to be exhibiting sexuality within the program at all, you'd think that would be good enough.
I think what tripped up the BSA was this:
Old school misogyny: a girl's program "isn't important." The GSA doesn't have the roster of presidents, astronauts, etc, that the BSA does. Ergo, the GSA "got" to fly under the radar, and adjust in it's own way. The boys program was seen as a part of the old WASP establishment that needed to be cracked open, openly and loudly.
Old school religion: with the membership shrinkage since the '60's, the remainder tend towards the socially conservative, and with the Mormon influence, especially so. The National leadership ends up being staffed by those who won't countenance any compromise on their core principles, or those who fear a mass exodus of Mormons if they did. With the cultural opponents packing some serious wood regarding their beefs (re: WASP establishment), and with the support of the GOP-controlled Congress, the National BSA circled the wagons.
As a result, because the BSA played the private organization card in the Supreme Court twice, it is no longer a a 501(c)(3), no more tax-deductible donations, and it has to line up with every other organization to reserve meeting hall spaces.
If, because no quarter is asked or given, the BSA fades away, I doubt there will be a comparable program to replace it. The level of commitment and scope of the endeavor just isn't going to be replicated without a driving sense of mission.
Luke, help me take this mask off
"One of the largest, most respected, proven institutions of leadership and man-building in our country and you are happy to see it's demise."
It's large, but you might deduce I don't respect it terribly much. If your concept of "man-building" includes required homophobia, then yes, I would be happy to see its demise.
"Demise" is a bit melodramatic though. They don't get to use my churches basement anymore so long as they promote the homophobia you celebrate, as they directly oppose the inclusive policy that congregation feels compelled to adopt based on their beliefs. I am indeed pleased that while I disagree with that church on many things (like the whole "God" part), they have the courage of their convictions. They think it is wrong to discriminate people based on how God made them, so they won't lend their assistance to organizations that do it. It's not like they are gleeful about it; it's they themselves that bear the burden of their decision, because it's their kids who were in the troop.
You know, people have discussions about sex with peers and other adults in all sorts of contexts, not just walking through the woods. I can only assume you'd like to ban gays from life in general. Sorry, but you're a bigot.
"For all it's faults, you should be ashamed."
For all it's faults, it should be ashamed.
However, all that I've found the Boy Scouts do is stand on their expressed belief system.
It's not hatemongering, but it's not merely a belief that should be respected either. It is discrimination, and it is legitimate to dislike it and question it, especially where young children are concerned. (Did anyone accuse them of hate, anyway?)
In a way, the fact that they're not violent hatemongers that are hated by society, but are respected people running a large organisation is what makes it more sinister. The hateful homophobes are generally not tolerated by anyone, but we must be wary of homophobia and discrimination that exists in mainstream organisations, under the veil that it is "their belief system". Belief systems that result in actions are legitimate targets of criticisms.
The point you are missing is they don't have to march against homosexuality - they are already in a privileged position where they can educate and influence large numbers of children to their ideals.
And where is anyone being bigots by reponding to this, as the title of your comment suggests? The reality is that whilst people may withhold actively helping them, hardly any software developers would go so far as to release software under a licence that prohibited being used by the BSA. I suspect many if not most people on Slashdot would actively oppose such a licence, even though they don't like the BSA.
I can't stand reading Digg because of the crap there; pro-marijuana, pro-sex-with-teachers, pro-Obama, anti-Hilary, anti-Bush, anti-war, anti-Christian, anti-religion, etc, etc. Slashdot needs to stay a normal news site for techies.
There is absolutely no scientific evidence that shows gay man are more likely to be inclined to sexually abuse a child. People continue to perpetrate the myths put out by various conservative groups. The facts are laid out (in very long-winded and detailed fashion) on that page and many others but here's the highlight:
Please stop spreading lies based on misrepresenting data and understand that it is nothing but old propaganda long debunked.
"We invented personal computing." - Bill Gates
Parent was not flamebait, parent was fact.
Atheists and gays are specifically banned from being members or volunteers within BSA, yet the government gives them special treatment and taxpayer money.
They can fuck off, seriously.
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
AC for a few reasons, sorry.
Shocked by the "I was an atheist and it was fine" comments.
I worked all the way through to Eagle Scout. Busted my butt, volunteered a lot, etc. Still try to be an honest, trustworthy guy, and heck, maybe that keeps me from advancing in the selfish-filled Corporate World, but that's a topic for another rant.
I got to my review committee and was *grilled* about my religious convictions, and this in a troop that wasn't particularly religious. My long-stated (and harrassment-inducing) atheism was suddenly a Very Big Problem. My closest advisor finally said something along the lines of, "ok, you don't believe a lot of specifics for any particular sect, but you believe in a higher power God, right? **_RIGHT_**?" with a "yes or you're done, even after a long, committed scouting life" look.
I mumbled some vague affirmatives sheepishly and all seemed satisfied. The topic changed.
I have never felt right about that. Don't think about it often, but now that I have, some ~15-20 years later, it still upsets me. I have always wanted to send in my badges and resign publicly as I wish I had done so on the spot. Maybe I'll go write a letter tonight.
Then again, don't get me started on the ignorant homophobia. This straight, white guy took a *lot* of sh!t for fighting against that. Really always seemed like a lot of closeted/self-denying/ignorant rednecks were leading that hate brigade. But the camping, knives, guns, etc were worth it! (at the time... I guess...)
I asked in another thread, but I ask this of you separately now. I also was in the Scouts. I am over 30. The change many of us refer to has been dramatic and predominantly in the last ten years.
If you really want to test the theory, go and ask directly if you can be a scoutmaster and be an atheist. I'd honestly be curious what the response would be, and if the organization has become more moderate of late.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
If you don't like it, don't support it.
And that's exactly what people are saying - not to support it.
The poster you replied to expresses why he dislikes the actions of the BSA - I don't see that your response disagrees with anything he writes. He's not supporting the BSA, and he's expressing his opinions about it on Slashdot. Saying "It is what it is" is a tautology, it doesn't change any point being made, nor does it place the BSA above criticism.
Excluding someone doesn't make you a bigot, actually. From the dictionary: Bigot: noun Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion See, you can NOT agree with someone but still not hate them.
Sure, but what we're talking about here is not a "disagreement". Indeed, this situation would be if the BSA disagreed with homosexuality, but still didn't exclude homosexuals. That would be the "not agree but still accept them" stance that ought to be possible. But apparently it isn't possible for the BSA, which is why some people are likely to accuse them of bigotry. (And bigotry doesn't imply hate by the way - intolerance is sufficient, and kicking them out of your group certainly qualifies, I'd say.)
Yet,I have only met a precious few athiests that didn't attack religion with the same illogic, hate, and vitrol that the most zealous fundamentalists use in their own attacks.
Yeah, bloody Dawkins, always flying planes into buildings to make his point. Why can't he be like the religious fundamentalists, who simply write books using logic and reasoning to make their case, and who argue against a belief, rather than the person who holds that belief?
And I'm with you on the flambouyant homosexuals, what with them always shoving their relationships down people's throats with their wedding rings and flambouyant wedding ceremonies. Honestly, you never know that people are straight, they always keep it so quiet, and never show off in public with their partners.
And should they have a hard time fitting in? Is your position helping improve the situation, or reinforcing a bad situation?
Does the US not have an army/navy/air cadet force as an alternative to the scouts?
Playing with proper military kit like L98A1s, LSWs and getting to sit in challengers (I was tank regiment) and getting flights in Lynx helicopters, NBC suits as well as learning important skills like camouflage and concealment, first aid, map and compass like the scouts was certainly more fun than the scouts could ever have been! Whilst the military has always discriminated against homosexuals it was never an issue in cadets, they had no problem with a couple of gay kids that were in it and religion was certainly never anything that mattered.
I've heard tales of air cadets getting to have flying lessons and go up in hercules also, I'm not sure what toys the naval cadets got to play with, presumably they let them on some of the ships for tours but I couldn't say for sure.
The only downside was that you had to do drill and learn to march properly or face getting shouted at by a still serving or ex-army major which when you're an adult is one thing but when you're a kid is pretty damn scary!
I don't think you are ever going to get homosexuals teenage boys to fit into a group of paramilitary heterosexual teenage boys, regardless of my position or the position of the BSA.
After considering the issue this evening, I believe the wisest course would be for the BSA to officially change its stance to allow anyone in regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof) or sexual orientation. The situation will sort itself out socially.
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>It's an interesting ploy to make out that gay people shouldn't be in scouting
>for their own good, because of all the homophobia present in the scouts...
It's an interesting ploy to say that a group of teenage paramilitary boys ostracizing abnormal sexual behavior is a phobia of homosexuality. I'd say it's just what kids do - ostracize people who are different from them. Wish it was different, but I can tell you from personal experience, it's the reality.
>Wait - are you intentionally conflating two different meanings of "normal", or are you just at the abnormally low end of the IQ curve?
I am using the word "normal" in the statistical sense.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Yes, because compassion for your fellow man is terribly immature.
"I hope I don't make a mistake and manage to remain a virgin." - Britney Spears
Are they going to accept source from gay contributors?
Don't Vote for Norm Dicks! http://www.nodicks2008.com Another nutless dirtbag that voted for the FISA bill!
'atheists never killed nobody' is a poor argument, considering Stalin and Mao's body count.
Allow me to paraphrase: "When you don't like something, just don't participate. You shouldn't be complaining about it."
That's quite a hypocritical thing to say. If you really believed that, you'd follow your own advice and keep your mouth shut.
>the "statistically normal" skin color in america is white, so does that mean the scouts should be driving out all the niggers
No, of course not, but I'll tell you what you will find: predominantly white troops and predominantly black troops. But seldom integrated ones. Much like public schools and churches, which isn't surprising since many Scout troops are sponsored by churches. Troops, like schools and churches, seem to socially self-sort.
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I think you're still buying into outdated stereotypes about homosexuals. Sure, some intentionally act effeminately, but certainly not all. I also know two that can kick my butt, and I'm not exactly an easy mark. There are a lot of homosexuals these days that are into weight lifting and martial arts... a lot of persecuted cultures seem to do that. From there, a lot of them become interested in guns, archery, camping, etc., just the things the the boy scouts tend to teach.
Certainly, children tend to be cruel and pick on those different than them. In 1974 many boy scout leaders argued that black children could not be integrated into "mixed race" boy scout troops because the white kids would not accept blacks as equals. To some degree, they were and are still correct. But for the most part blacks kids are now accepted by the majority of their white peers. Until you allow kids to socialize together and overcome their prejudices, all you're doing is making the prejudice worse by promoting and exploiting ignorance.
After considering the issue this evening, I believe the wisest course would be for the BSA to officially change its stance to allow anyone in regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof) or sexual orientation. The situation will sort itself out socially.I applaud your position. I have every confidence such a move by the scouts would eventually "sort itself out" just as it did with the issue of race.
>You know, people have discussions about sex with peers and other adults in all sorts
>of contexts, not just walking through the woods. I can only assume you'd like to ban gays from life in general. Sorry, but you're a bigot.
Well you know what they say about assuming. I don't care one whit what adults do in their bedrooms.
Anyway, I concede the debate. The Scouts should let everyone in. The situation will socially self-sort. Either their fellow kids will welcome the homosexual kids in with open arms and they will stay, or they won't, and they will leave. All the BSA is doing now is buying bad press and loosing access to resources.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
You blithely accuse all kids of homophobia and say they're cruel enough to pick on you just for being a nerd on the one hand, but then want to pretend they wouldn't pick on kids for not being white on the other?
You aren't just a bigot, you're a disingenuous one.
You know, the sad part about this whole series of threads today is I saw what happened to the obviously gay kid in my troop. You people think it's all about me and MY attitude towards gay people, and that could not be farther from the truth. I saw what happened to that kid. They made little songs about him with his name in it, sung complete with lispy accent. Finally one day at "recess" (after meetings the kids went out to the athletic field to play) one of the other kids kneed him in the crotch - so hard it split the end of his penis. And there was not a damn thing I could do about it. I sat the entire troop down one summer camp while he was out at a class and told them in no uncertain terms they had to stop picking on him and give him a chance. To no avail.
So I know, I know, let's all paint maillemaker as a bigot who hates gays. I'm not. I am completely ambivalent about people's sexuality and consider it a born trait no more important than your hair color. The fact of the matter is, Scouting hardly ever touches on sexuality and is mostly about leadership and survivalist training - skills that anyone, gay or straight, can take advantage of. I just don't think it's ever going to work out based on my experience. But you're right - they should open up to everyone. Let's give it a shot.
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He helps them who help themselves. Sorry Boy scouts you are on your own.
IMAGE VERIFICATION IS EVIL!
I wasn't meaning to imply that you're a bad person. Nor was I trying to imply that you were sexist or a racist. I don't feel that you are responsible for every bad thing every white male has ever done for the history of the world.
I do think your knowledge of the world has been lacking though. Not your fault, just an artifact of the US education system. I think you would do well to look outside your clubhouse from time to time. What you see might disturb you if you have the courage not to flinch.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
The scouts are a private organization, and I respect their right to set rules for their organization
But my biggest pet peeve is that the BSA claims this is based on Christian values. It isn't. Any church I've been to (I'm a lapsed Catholic) would love to have a homosexual or atheist come to mass, and probably offer to have a priest available to talk to the visitor afterwards.
Turning away "sinners" goes against everything Christianity is about. God decides who's a sinner, NOT the BSA.
Somehow I think the open source community won't flock to this cause.
You are speaking on the ethics of the scout. I am speaking on the ethics of those who run the Boy Scouts of America.
Very different things.
Believe me, I am well aware of the convenience of silence as an atheist. I have many firsthand experiences related to that "bigger picture."
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
>I think you're still buying into outdated stereotypes about homosexuals. Sure, some intentionally act effeminately,
>but certainly not all. I also know two that can kick my butt, and I'm not exactly an easy mark. There are a lot of
>homosexuals these days that are into weight lifting and martial arts... a lot of persecuted cultures seem to do that.
>From there, a lot of them become interested in guns, archery, camping, etc., just the things the the boy scouts tend to teach.
I'm not sure it is intentional when they act effeminately, in fact I suspect it is not intentional at all, and furthers my belief that homosexuality is not a choice - who could decide one day to put on such an affectation?
In my life I have known 6 gay men and one gay teenager that I knew to be gay. Of them, 3 of them spoke in a manner that I can only describe as "gay". It is not the over-dramatic, Robin Williams "lisp", but it is, nonetheless, detectable to me. You might say that I knew they were gay and thus interpreted the way they spoke as gay, but anecdotally in the case of one fellow, I knew there was a gay man where I worked at a new job but I did not know who he was. As soon as I was introduced I pegged him as the fellow and, in fact, it was. This fellow is also a black belt in a martial art, so I am not trying to say that gay people who speak in a certain way can't be physically tough.
>Certainly, children tend to be cruel and pick on those different than them. In 1974 many boy scout leaders argued that
>black children could not be integrated into "mixed race" boy scout troops because the white kids would not accept blacks
>as equals. To some degree, they were and are still correct. But for the most part blacks kids are now accepted by the
>majority of their white peers. Until you allow kids to socialize together and overcome their prejudices, all you're
>doing is making the prejudice worse by promoting and exploiting ignorance.
From my personal experience I don't think integration has done much of anything, sadly. When I was in Scouts (1981-1988) you had predominantly white troops and predominantly black troops. This is not surprising to me as many, if not most troops are sponsored by churches, and churches remain the most self-segregated institutions around. Further, all through school, college, and later professionally, one need only look out across the lunch room and see further evidence of self-segregation.
The sad fact of the matter is, for all they tell you as a child that you are "unique" and "special", and that you should resist peer pressure and not conform to the norm, we seem to be driven to do exactly that, except in the case of celebrity for some reason.
My fear and suspicion is that acceptance of homosexuality will parallel acceptance of racial diversity, which is to say it won't happen for a long, long time.
Nonetheless, Scouting is first and foremost about leadership, followed closely by what is essentially survival and civic training. These are admirable things, and should be open to everyone regardless of religious belief or sexual orientation.
I am a lifetime member of NESA (National Eagle Scout Association). I will work for this cause.
After considering the issue this evening, I believe the wisest course would be for the BSA to officially change its stance to allow anyone in regardless of religious affiliation (or lack thereof) or sexual orientation. The situation will sort itself out socially.
I applaud your position. I have every confidence such a move by the scouts would eventually "sort itself out" just as it did with the issue of race.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
You tell that story about the gay kid as if it supported excluding gay kids from scouting. That kid wasn't the problem; the other kids were. Though, at a deeper level, where do you think they got the idea that the gay kid was the one to make fun of? Maybe from organizations that declare Homosexuals to be not "morally straight"?
"one of the other kids kneed him in the crotch - so hard it split the end of his penis. And there was not a damn thing I could do about it."
Optimally, call the police; you witnessed the commission of assault and battery. At the least, kick them out of the scout troop. But a stern talking to? Are you kidding?
...for where I called you a racist. I applaud you for your well-rounded insight. I, however, did not call you a racist.
(I even stated the contrary explicitly in a reply to my previous post.)
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
the navy and marines enlist you as an e-3, but you don't wear the rank until completing basic but get the extra pay (same as if you enlist in the army with a college degree and are paid as an e-4).
The air force and army enlists you as an e-2.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
I believe the GP point was clear. And most importantly, I believe the BSA has a clear right of upholding their values.
What's next, the Catholic church will be taken to court for not accepting atheists for priests?
>You tell that story about the gay kid as if it supported excluding gay kids from scouting. That kid wasn't the
>problem; the other kids were. Though, at a deeper level, where do you think they got the idea that the
>gay kid was the one to make fun of? Maybe from organizations that declare Homosexuals to be not "morally straight"?
Hell if I know where they get their ideas. Where did they get the idea to pick on nerds like me? Where did they get the idea to pick on kids like me who's parents didn't buy them Izod shirts and Nike shoes? Play any online games? Everyone who does something they don't like is "gay". The fact is, kids just don't tolerate people who are different, and I think they figure out the differences all by themselves.
"one of the other kids kneed him in the crotch - so hard it split the end of his penis. And there was not a damn thing I could do about it."
>Optimally, call the police; you witnessed the commission of assault and battery. At the least,
>kick them out of the scout troop. But a stern talking to? Are you kidding?
I was not actually present at the time of the assault. I was back at the meeting dealing with some after-meeting issue. I was still a Scout at this time - probably Senior Patrol Leader or somesuch - not an adult leader. I don't think any adults were present, either. At the time, after meetings all the kids just ran to the athletic field to play some kind of game - the adults usually stayed in the "Scout Hut" dealing with whatever loose ends needed tying up. The talking-to that I attempted with the rest of "my guys" was well before the assault, at a summer camp. After the assault I don't think we saw him again. I don't know how the assault was handled. I doubt the police were involved or I would have heard about it / remembered it. Nor do I remember who committed the assault or what, if anything became of them.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Boy Scouts--you are an anachronism of narow-minded hateful childish superstitious religion. It didn't have to be that way as you have accomplished a lot of good when you weren't on witch hunts. But you chose war so here it is. Please just die off in the dust of antiquity along with the Inquisition and other hateful superstitious groups. I am a heterosexual man with a wife and family, but I have colleagues who are homosexual and I don't ascribe to your narrow-minded superstitious world view. Particularly given entire regimes who tolerated (not endorsed--just tolerated) homosexuality (Greek, Roman, Japan, N.American Indian,etc.) thrived proving it doesn't hurt society like you wackos say it does). No help from me. Open Source is counter to your founding and ruling principles.
OK, so it wasn't you that failed those kids (both the assaulters and asaultee), but it was the scout leader. The problem in your troop wasn't the presence of a gay kid - they would have beaten up on someone else if he wasn't there. The problem was adults who couldn't deal with such a situation yet thought they had some business teaching kids about leadership and adult responsibility.
Kids picked on you, so you know removing homosexuals doesn't mean kids don't get picked on. I'm not gay, but in my troop, I was the guy who got picked on, to the tune of a trip to the emergency room for a concussion from having rocks thrown at me. No one called the police or did anything with any real consequences then either. I left scouting, the perpetrators became Eagle scouts a couple years later, and were in jail a couple years after that. So hooray for "man-building."
They would create the "Order of the Spaghetti Monster" award
That was cute for all of five seconds. It's nowhere near as funny as The Church of the Subgenius or, more recently, Ceiling Cat.
Scouting is a place to help boys grow up to be men. NORMAL men.
But then they're asking for computer help. I've met a couple of programmers who were normal men. They sucked.
Maybe you're thinking of Freemasons?
No matter what the official policy on homosexuals may be by the BSA, they will never fit in and be accepted by the rest of the kids. We had a gay kid in one of the troops I was involved with. Despite all my efforts to stop it, he was the constant point of ridicule and butt of jokes. Kids are simply brutal. I was picked on incessantly for being a nerd, and gay kids are going to be picked on incessantly for being gay. I wish the world was nicer, but it's not.
So why do you need to be reverent to anybody/anything at all, if you can't even friendly, courteous and kind? As a scout leader, you should be a good example. You should do your best to stop unscouts-like behavior, rather than condoning it with a cowardly "kids will be kids" attitude.Of course, every organization that needed to raise funds sold Krispy Kreme doughnuts. They made it easy.
Oddly enough, other Boy Scout organizations around the world have the same Boy Scout Oath, but when I have mentioned to people from places like England and New Zealand that the Boy Scouts of America does not allow Atheists to join because of that oath, they are appalled. My understanding is that Baden-Powell himself never intended to exclude non-believers.
I believe the Boy Scouts of America simply uses the oath as a fig leaf for their bigotry.
In the complete absence of moral discrimination, anything is permissible. Are you looking to the laws of the land to define what is morally permissible and what is not? If so, your "morality" over the last 100 years would have changed drastically! Do you look to your own insight and experience to define what is morally permissible? How frequently has that changed as you've aged and had various experiences? How much more will it change in the coming years? Do you have a fundamental disagreement with the following Christian beliefs?:
Are any of the neigh sayers out there going to dispute that these are not only positive virtues in a civilized society but also something that we are lacking more and more of in the United States and the world? Would you not agree that sexuality can and has and will be used in destructive immoral ways? Do you disagree that relationships, young lives, and even entire societies have all been destroyed because of a lack of sexual morality?
The BSA and other organizations that are based on Judeo-Christian principles recognize that these values go a long way in teaching young people to become capable, responsible members of society. Good for them! And they do so with the best interests of the their scouts in heart and mind.
If you completely reject any religious belief system as "mythical", "hateful", or "unprovable", then I'd like you to take a minute to consider your actions in life. Why do you occasionally help out a neighbor with his weekend project? Why do you give money to your local animal shelter? Why do you attempt to not cheat on your spouse? Why do you bother to be honest when working the checkout counter where you work? Why are you trying to make a greener Earth for tomorrow? Where did you get the idea that these are good things to do and worth the investment of your precious and limited time?
If you truly do not believe in an after-life that reflects the consequences of your actions in this one, then CHANGE your actions! Why do you just want to be a "good person"? What's the point? You're still dead in the end. Your "good" actions are a complete waste of time and it is *you* that are being duped.
And consider for a moment that what you know of Christianity or organized religion is probably heavily tainted by your own experiences with hypocritical "followers" and/or the stories you've heard from others. Our worship leader starts every service greeting us as sinners; "Good morning sinners!" It's a simple reminder that we're all struggling to adhere to a moral code as best we can.
Having a bad experience with religion or Christianity
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are ...
Btw, it took place in the 15th, not in the 19th century
I've never understood this. Here is the scout oath as I recall it from my days as a Boy Scout.
"On my Honor,
I will do my best;
To do my duty;
To God and my Country
And to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."
Now could one of you who is a true blue Atheist or Agnostic explain to me. If you do not believe in a God or gods, or any sort of deity whatsoever, then if you profess duty to something that in effect does not truly exist, just what duty could you possibly owe to that. Assuming that you believe God does not exist, what harm is there in saying it? Its the same thing with the Pledge of Allegiance. One nation under god. (little g though, I should note) There have been secular recitation of such oaths all over the world for centuries. So if someone could please explain to me, what harm is there in professing a duty "To God" if you personally believe he/she/it doesn't exist, why is it a problem? If it doesn't exist as you believe, then what duty could you possibly owe to something you perceive to not exist? My answer is a sum total of 0, but maybe my math skills in this department are flawed. Anyone care to enlighten me, cause I am most curious on this one.
> According to the article, there are no plans for a scout merit badge in open source
Well you would not expect there to be one: it goes against the spirit of it.
If you feel the itch for an Open Source Merit badge then you just *make one for yourself*, either to your own design or one that you find on the web that is suitable licensed.
You could also make lots of copies for your fellow Scouts, you could even change for them, but you can not stop someone else seeing your design and making an identical one for themselves.
You refuse to suffer the beliefs of those who consider sex outside of marriage wrong and who believe in a singular God.
That too is bigotry.
>You blithely accuse all kids of homophobia and say they're cruel enough to pick on you just for being a
>nerd on the one hand, but then want to pretend they wouldn't pick on kids for not being white on the other?
>You aren't just a bigot, you're a disingenuous one.
My experience in Scouting was that racial issues were not very relevant, because troops tended to be predominantly white or predominantly black. This is not surprising to me because many, if not most, troops are sponsored by churches, which tend to be the most self-segregated institutions around.
We did have one black kid in our troop - he was an adopted brother of 3 other brothers in the troop. I don't remember him having any issues within the troop. Perhaps racial tolerance is more accepted than homosexuality, I don't know.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
they are ok with charging mountain bikers for access to tamarancho http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=4023&orgkey=1235 but they want their software free. I will charge them $5 per day!
Wrong. I pay taxes to the government because I don't want to go to jail. Saying because I pay taxes is like saying I still support the war in Iraq (I don't).
Gorkman
Correct. However he's also trying to get us to not support it too by posting his opinion.
I don't like the fact that the NAACP doesn't support white people but you don't hear me bitching about it either.
Gorkman
I'm one of the scoutmasters in a local troop. We are parents raising our families as best we can. We are all unpaid volunteers. These official rules of the national BSA organization don't have much to do with us. We have had gay parents in our group. There were no problems. There may be gay scouts. We don't know because we do not get involved in that. One of the purposes of the Scouts is to teach that there is more to life than your hormones. We have had families of every major religion: Buddhism, Hinduism, Muslim, Judaism, and Christianity. We don't just tolerate them. We expect them to share their religion with us. Our "official" definition of a belief in God is pretty loose. The fact that a parent has committed their time to raising their kids is a good enough indicator. That being said, there is much more. Our boys start out with an enthusiasm for knives and fire. As adults, our job is to teach them how to control their knives and fires so they become useful. We teach them highly masculine skills like how to cook, wash dishes, maintain a clean living area, and the skills to enjoy themselves outside the house. We get them involved with civic projects and the local politics. For a boy, these challenges are sometimes scary. With their fathers, they learn to take the challenges seriously. When they conquer the challenges, they develop tremendous confidence in themselves. We have the largest, loudest and dirtiest troop in the area. We also win the most awards. For me, involvement with scouting was not a difficult choice. What else is there? Am I supposed to raise my kids on television?
You missed my point entirely, which was that the Boy Scouts of America are allowed to use public land at free or near-free rates and also receive direct funding and aid from the government and military. This is in direct contradiction to federal rules and regulations that prohibit them providing such things to an organization that directly practices discrimination from the highest levels down. As many others and myself have said time and time again, the BSA, as a private organization, are well within their rights to discriminate. However, they are immediately disqualified from much government support they currently receive, by law, if they follow that path. They can change their ways or stop taking handouts from our government and by extension each American citizen, you can't have it both ways.
So yes, I pay my taxes because I don't want to go to jail, and I lament and protest that my taxes and the taxes of others go towards this organization which was taken over by the religious right in the mid-80's.
Please either Google for more information or watch the Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode on the subject (Google Video for "penn teller boy scouts" brings up the three parts) because it is woefully obvious that you do not understand the amount of help this discriminatory organization receives from the federal and local governments. It is not enough to simply pull your kids out of scouting and say why, or tell them you won't be putting your kids in and explaining why. The issue at hand is financial support which violates anti-discrimination laws.
"We invented personal computing." - Bill Gates
A scout is honest:
Therefore, a scout can not be a CLOSETED gay. They must be openly gay!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You keep citing bits and pieces of your experiences from the 80's. I was a gay scout in the 90's and had few issues. It's currently 2008. Times are a changin'.
You keep mentioning how scouts will talk about sex and how that will preclude gay scouts from 'belonging'. But this really doesn't make any sense. First, gay scouts are perfectly able to appreciate their friend's (likely fabricated) straight sexual adventures and can regale them with their own (again, likely fabricated).
Second, why should the conversation be limited to only straight sexuality? It seems perfectly reasonable for a young adult or boy leader to mention that some guys like other guys. Remember, when most boys join scouts, they're just hitting puberty, and their sexuality is just beginning to develop. There's a pretty good chance that any given troop has a number of gay scouts who didn't know they were gay when they started. Honest healthy talk about sexuality will go a good way toward these kids growing up to become healthy adults. Protip: Unlike your repressed gay best man, healthy adults are those who don't need to 'confide' their sexuality in anyone.
Finally, the Scouts are full of misfits. Not all, but a good portion are there because they don't belong somewhere else. Even if a gay kid's sexuality made him feel different from the others, that's not such a big deal. They'll have plenty of other shared experiences that will bond them together.
From your other posts, it sounds like your experiences were tarnished by poor leadership that facilitated bullying (of both you and gay kid). That's neither your fault, or the gay kid's, though, that's the Scoutmaster's and the bullies' fault. It should be them disallowed in the organization.
I assure you, merit badges or not, any group of teenage boys is going to have discussions about sex, official or otherwise. Scouting is no exception.
Right. So basically, being a scout is going to be just like all the other times they're going to be hanging around other guys their age in their life. They're going to need to figure out how to do that sooner or later, if they haven't already by that age.
No matter who you are, your whole life you will be with groups of people that are like you in some respects but not others. You will need to learn to get along with those people. You will need to find common ground. This seems easier to me as a scout than in many cases, because probably you're all there because you like a lot of the same activities.
Either it's okay for them to be scouts from this perspective, or we definitely shouldn't let them go to school either. Scouting you can leave or maybe join another troop if you're uncomfortable -- school you're much more stuck with.
Just to avoid contradicting yourself in the future, you might want to look up the difference in meaning between proscribed and prescribed. They are almost opposites.
$META_SIG_JOKE
There's always Camp Fire USA. It is almost 100 years old and provides a very similar experience. However, it is co-ed and non-discriminatory. The group I run contains Christians, Atheists, Pagans, and Jews, as well as both straight and gay families.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Fire_USA
http://www.campfireusa.com/start.asp
(I know I'm late on this -- past the first page -- so it's likely this won't accomplish all that much. Still, it's worth a shot...)
What if the Boy Scouts wanted to exclude homosexuals from leadership, not because they're a bunch of meanies and discriminating arbitrarily is what bunches of meanies do, but because homosexuality has so frequently meant pedastry, especially prior to the 20th century?
Off the top of my head: the 17th-century French traveller Chardin (cited in Braudel, The Structures of Everyday Life) observed that in Persia there were three sexes, and many men were homosexual with young boys; after the conquest of Cyprus, the Ottomans sent the young son as well as the daughter of the governor to the Sultan's harem; and to give an example closer to home, for the Greeks and Romans homosexuality almost always meant "with a boy." Indeed, their repression of women meant that love was almost exclusively between men and boys (cf. Plato's Phaedro 73d). I'm also reminded of that one interminable Roman novel with the hopelessly crass noveau-riche who serves counterfeit Optimian, does a dress rehersal of his own funeral at a dinner party, and proudly has an epitath that he was worth however many million sesterces and never heard a philosopher. (Although obviously, pedastry was not his only fault -- and just as obviously, he was fictional, but it's not the major concepts but the things mentioned off-handedly -- like this character's pedastry -- that are likeliest to be reliably historical. Anyone familiar with A History of Private Life or the Annales School knows exactly what I'm talking about.) (Note also: I omit discussions of the Far East and India here mostly because I don't know many details offhand, but anyone who wants to Wikipedia Mori Ranmaru can be my guest.)
So based on this kind of pattern -- possibly mirrored in the present day by the precipitate fall in the age of consent in, say, the Netherlands -- I'd say that the BSA was acting prudently. Pedophilia is not universal among homosexuals, but it's a darned sight more common than it is in heterosexuals, at least judging by history. (Another phenomenon that could be an example of sublimated homosexual pedastry: boys' choirs, and the castrati of early-modern Europe.)
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
You're still asking people to pledge their belief in a deity by saying the oath -- or to lie about said belief. That's dishonorable and relegates non-religious folks to the status of second-class citizens within the organization. I should also point out that the text of the Oath is only one facet of the deep problems of discrimination within the BSA.
Its the same thing with the Pledge of Allegiance. One nation under god.The current Pledge of Allegiance is a another issue, but it is overdue for a change back to its pre-1950s text, wherein the offending "under god" line was originally absent before the Knights of Columbus lobbied Congress to insert religious imagery into it. Much like the Scout's Oath, the current Pledge asks children to pay lip service to the Judeo-Christian worldview. However, unlike the Scout's Oath, the Pledge is imposed on kids the country over in public schools, making the situation even worse.
It's easy to dismiss this as inconsequential if you've never walked in the shoes of a non-religious American (or, indeed, any minority); but consider that this exclusionary wording has been used as a bullet point to argue for even greater degrees of religious discrimination, and I think you'll begin to see how much of a problem even the slightest crack in the wall of separation between church and state can be.
I suppose, then, that it's the 'rare exceptions' that are getting crosses taken out of college chapels and graveyards, student-led and student-initiated prayers out of graduations?
Couldn't say for sure, but I suspect the ratio of activists in both atheist and gay communities to ordinary people is greater than that of the general population.
Personally, I've found one in five atheists do not try to change my private beliefs and practices.
Does anyone really ever try to make that argument? I think they'd lose their credibility pretty quick.
In Hitchen's infantile screed "God is not Great" he essentially says that atheist massacres aren't as bad as theist massacres because Stalin didn't claim to speak for God. Puerile and circular reasoning if you ask me (you didn't). I hated that book, in case you can't tell.
Dawkins makes the sharper point that more people have been slaughtered in the name of God(s) than have been butchered for avowedly atheist reasons, but that could well be just an artifact of the numbers. Most criminals believe in god, or at least profess to do so, because most people profess to believe in god. That makes me suspect that religion doesn't inherently cause or prevent evil.
I think mass movements such as religion (and militant anti-religious atheistic movements like Stalinism or Maoism) are easily perverted into atrocities simply because people get caught up in mob psychology and start thinking as they are told to think, rather than for themselves. Genocidal maniacs can use religion to help them commit their crimes when most people are religious. In a self-righteously atheist state such as Stalin was leading, atheism works mo bettah.