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First Ethernet Switch In Space

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the iss-lan-party-arrives dept.

Rebecca will you marry me? writes "The ESA's Columbus laboratory module was added to the International Space Station in February, but Hewlett-Packard has only now chosen to reveal that the LAN onboard Columbus uses a ProCurve 2524 switch." HP admits it was the "most unusual and demanding" project ProCurve has done yet.

141 comments

  1. Title is misleading by N3TW4LK3R · · Score: 5, Informative

    From TFA: "Two redundant LAN switches, developed by the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) Astrium, already operate in the ISS network core and now have been joined by HP's ProCurve 2524 switch"

    I sent this in an e-mail to Taco when the article was still in the 'mysterious future' but that message must have been stopped by his spam filter or something.

    Yeah yeah, I must be new here ;)

    1. Re:Title is misleading by ggvaidya · · Score: 1

      Did you try the on-duty editor, at - I think - daddypants at slashdot.org? I e-mailed there once, and they fixed the problem that time pretty fast, although of course perhaps my e-mail vanished into the ether and somebody else with the correct e-mail address got in. Still, it's something to do, I suppose.

      I doubt they'll change this, though, "Another switch in space" doesn't have the same ring to it, and neither will the ringing of their cash machine with titles like that.

    2. Re:Title is misleading by N3TW4LK3R · · Score: 1

      Yes, I mailed it to the daddypants address...

      The correct action to take after reading my message would be to prevent the story from reaching the front page, since it's really a non-story if it's not the _first_ switch in space. Maybe it's the cash machine :) or perhaps the e-mail just got lost.

    3. Re:Title is misleading by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this isn't really news. This was announced months ago!

      Is slashdot losing it's way on cutting edge stuff?

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    4. Re:Title is misleading by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      I guess a better title would have been "First off the shelf switch in space" but hey we've never let the facts bother us before, damned if we're gonna start now.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    5. Re:Title is misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's worse than that.

      from a NASA report:

      "An excellent example of applications of COTS equipment to space-based network has been accomplished by the Russians. The Russian International Space Station (ISS) service module network consists of the following COTS products:
      - Ethernet LAN running 100 Base-TX
      - Cabletron SmartSwitch router
      - Shielded cat-5 type cable
      - 3Com 3C589D, or Intel Pro/100 PCMCIA Ethernet cards"

      -- ISS and STS Commercial Off-The-Shelf Router Testing,
      Will Ivancic, Terry Bell and Dan Shell, April 2002.
      http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/Citations.aspx?id=1749

      That would make the Cabletron Smartswitch the first Ethernet switch in space.

  2. Fortunately, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    they aren't using Linksys routers as well. Password: defaultshuttle

  3. Connect to the first router? by comm3c · · Score: 1, Informative
    I wonder if they'll connect it to the router in space?

    http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive04/ciscoarch_042104.html

  4. Resale value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Excellent, that should triple the resale value of my Procurve 2512 switch. Any offers?

  5. And this is interesting because? by cheebie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is there some reason why a router in orbit would behave differently in any way from a router sitting in a rack in the server room? (Other than floating, etc.)

    1. Re:And this is interesting because? by thomasdz · · Score: 5, Informative

      Extended G-forces during launch might be a good test of how well solder joints, connectors, and other components are made.

      --
      Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
    2. Re:And this is interesting because? by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 4, Informative

      Semiconductors generally don't like high-radiation environments, such as outer space. Hence the normal use of specially made high-$$$ "rad-hard" components in space systems.

      --
      Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
    3. Re:And this is interesting because? by N3TW4LK3R · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In space, it's exposed to all kinds of radiation that normally gets blocked by the earth's atmosphere.
      This is one of the reasons we try to limit the complexity of electronics sent out to space. (and additionally, shield the hell out of everything)
      I believe the shuttle uses a computer comparable to a 386, for this reason.

    4. Re:And this is interesting because? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Heat is not removed from components by airflow because warm air doesn't rise in zero gravity. This means forced convection has to reach more places.

    5. Re:And this is interesting because? by Dogtanian · · Score: 5, Funny

      Is there some reason why a router in orbit would behave differently in any way from a router sitting in a rack in the server room? I suspect there may be some timeout issues due to the network cable connecting them to ground control slightly exceeding the Ethernet spec's maximum length.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    6. Re:And this is interesting because? by muffel · · Score: 5, Insightful
      • Cooling: No 'natural' convection
      • G-Forces, Vibration
      • Radiation
      --

      bla
    7. Re:And this is interesting because? by Poorcku · · Score: 1

      Job satisfacton correlates only mildly with job performance, so it must be something other than what they like or what not. :)

      --
      I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
    8. Re:And this is interesting because? by whoda · · Score: 1

      • Cooling: No 'natural' convection
      • G-Forces, Vibration
      • Radiation
      Gee, all the same things that the equipment HP designed for the military in the 70's and 80's was required to have.
    9. Re:And this is interesting because? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hope for the sake of the ISS crew that it's "low rad" in the ISS.

      The radiation the semiconductors don't like are heavy particles like neutrons which are extremely harmful to humans too.

    10. Re:And this is interesting because? by tbischel · · Score: 3, Funny

      Extended G-forces during launch might be a good test of how well solder joints, connectors, and other components are made.

      Hmm... sounds like an expensive test plan. How about just testing g-forces in the lab? ;-)

    11. Re:And this is interesting because? by networkBoy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Shuttle flight computer uses the 386 double sigma.
      here are some other notes:
      http://klabs.org/DEI/Processor/shuttle/

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    12. Re:And this is interesting because? by cyclone96 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually it's the US segment of ISS that uses the 386 based machines (although a couple may go to Pentiums in a few years).

      The Orbiter uses the AP-101S, which was also used in military aircraft. NASA has a great deal of published history online regarding Shuttle Avionics here.

      --
      Worst...sig...ever!
    13. Re:And this is interesting because? by Fizzlewhiff · · Score: 3, Informative

      Heat. Things have to run cooler as there's no convection in space.

      --

      'Same speed C but faster'
    14. Re:And this is interesting because? by rossdee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Radiation could be a problem (cosmic rays, solar storms).

      Then there is cooling - even in the ISS you can't use convection since there is no up for the hot air to rise to.

    15. Re:And this is interesting because? by NMerriam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One thing other folks haven't mentioned is the lower atmospheric pressure. I know when we've used laptops in high altitude situations, the LCD displays would sometimes crap out because they are essentially laminates, and separated when the environmental expectation for ambient pressure were not met.

      Of course that specific problem won't affect a switch, but there may be some other unexpected way in which atmospheric pressure is involved. It isn't necessarily easily tested in a high-altitude chamber, since (as with many things) the effect can be cumulative and depend on other factors like being jostled during use.

      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    16. Re:And this is interesting because? by joggle · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's true but probably misleading. They almost certainly have the router in an accessible area so it is exposed to air so it can use convection to cool itself. Ultimately the space station can only get rid of excess heat via radiation but this particular component doesn't need to be designed differently because of thermal issues.

    17. Re:And this is interesting because? by aix+tom · · Score: 1

      But there is no convection, since the heated air doesn't move "upward" like it does on earth. It hangs around the heated part without moving off, unless there is some sort of active ventilation.

    18. Re:And this is interesting because? by Perf · · Score: 1

      The Apollo computer had to deal with high humidity.
      I would think the ISS would have similar issues.
      If not from normal usage, but also resistance to failure when some machine in the room leaks water bubbles.

    19. Re:And this is interesting because? by cyclone96 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, the atmospheric pressure of ISS is maintained between 14.1 and 14.9 psi or so, for just that reason. Only the airlocks and some storage volumes are taken below that. Critical equipment is certified to go to low pressures (in case a module depress occurs) but a lot of the non-critical and/or commercial equipment isn't held to that standard (since it could be replaced).

      Apollo flew with about 5 psi of pressure, and Shuttle would sometimes depress the cabin to 10.2 psi in prep for spacewalks, but ISS maintains an earthlike atmosphere.

      --
      Worst...sig...ever!
    20. Re:And this is interesting because? by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      Fool, they would obviously use Cat 7 cabling.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    21. Re:And this is interesting because? by joggle · · Score: 1

      Sure it convects, it just doesn't move upward. It does move from hot to cold though and form thermal currents. All you need for convection is a gas with sufficient density or a liquid. You don't need gravity.

    22. Re:And this is interesting because? by aix+tom · · Score: 1

      Nope. Why should it move, when there is no gravity to make hot air lighter than cold? Why would thermal currents form?

      For example, they did experiments with candles. and they snuffed, because the hot air didn't move away and thus no new oxygen arrived at the flame.

      http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_360.html

    23. Re:And this is interesting because? by node159 · · Score: 1

      Think you missed the point of this, the issue is that hot air does not 'rise' in space, this has nothing to do with dumping generated heat into space.

      --
      GPLv2: I want my rights, I want my phone call! DRM: What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
    24. Re:And this is interesting because? by joggle · · Score: 1

      2nd law of thermodynamics. The entropy of a closed not in equilibrium will increase until it reaches a maximum value. You simply can't keep hot fluids separate from cold fluids, there will be heat transfer and the label we call this type of heat transfer is convection. The problem with the candle is that the rate of oxygen replenishment is too low to maintain combustion. That is not the same as zero convection. A flame has a very high rate of convection and needs a substantial flow of oxygen to maintain the combustion process. Without gravity the convection process is too low for optimal combustion. Comparing that to the passive convection of an electronic device is not a good approach. For more information on convection you should read the wikipedia article about it.

    25. Re:And this is interesting because? by joggle · · Score: 1

      I did not miss the point. There are three primary types of heat transfer: radiation, convection and conduction. In space the only method of heat transfer is radiation. Conduction works within solids. However for fluids and gases convection works well with or without gravity. The convection rate will be different depending on the type of fluid and can depend on whether gravity is present, but for a low power device it should be similar with or without gravity.

    26. Re:And this is interesting because? by aix+tom · · Score: 1

      Interesting article, especially :

      In zero-g environments there can be no buoyancy forces, and thus no natural (free) convection possible....

      The 2nd law of thermodynamic of course still applies, so the heat will eventually move away from the electronics, but much slower than through convection, where the heated air moves away and is replaced by cooler air. I would imagine it might be equivalent to enclosing the electronics in Styrofoam, which also keeps the air in place.

    27. Re:And this is interesting because? by bluepuddle · · Score: 1

      This means forced convection has to reach more places. Is 'forced convection' correct? Surely 'forced air flow'...
    28. Re:And this is interesting because? by joggle · · Score: 1

      I'd like to point out that your quote from the article references the same straight-dope article you originally linked to. It's true that a candle in a zero-g environment doesn't necessarily maintain combustion but convection does naturally occur, just at a slower rate. However, it would be trivial to add a fan to mitigate this so one way or another they are certainly using convection to cool the electronics.

    29. Re:And this is interesting because? by aix+tom · · Score: 1

      So to sum it up, we can agree that there is no gravitational convection, however there is some smaller Rayleigh-Benard and/or Benard-Marangoni convection.

      Which means, to use "off the shelf" equipment they either need to check carefully how much it relies on gravitational convection, or add forced convection by fans or mounting the equipment in a place where additional airflow exist anyway.

    30. Re:And this is interesting because? by joggle · · Score: 1

      Yep!

  6. I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if they'll connect it to the router in space? http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive04/ciscoarch_042104.html

  7. Cool test methodology by dreamchaser · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Despite the misleading title (should probably say first OFF THE SHELF switch in orbit), it's pretty cool how they tested these. From TFA:

    Switches from Cisco, D-Link, Avaya, 3Com, NetGear and Hewlett Packard were exposed to extreme levels of radiation in a particle accelerator in Villigen, Switzerland under conditions similar to space.


    Makes one think more about all the radiation crewmembers get exposed to as well, even within the protective embrace of the Earth's magnetic field. That's one of the big hurdles to travel to Mars of course; long term exposure to varying levels of radiation (mostly from the Sun).

    I just think it's geeky-cool that they put them in a particle accellerator for testing though.
    1. Re:Cool test methodology by Joe+Jay+Bee · · Score: 4, Funny

      They did try to test a Belkin one, but that one failed even before they'd subjected it to the particle accelerator.

      --
      I write bullshit
    2. Re:Cool test methodology by brunokummel · · Score: 5, Funny

      Despite the misleading title (should probably say first OFF THE SHELF switch in orbit)...
      not necessarily, since It must be really hard to keep something ON THE SHELF in outer space.. =)
      *drum rolls
      --
      What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women.
    3. Re:Cool test methodology by ocdude · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you need this

    4. Re:Cool test methodology by pcgabe · · Score: 1

      *drum rolls
      **eyes roll
      --
      Don't put advice in your sig.
    5. Re:Cool test methodology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that even airline pilots are exposed to high radiation doses is well known. In real space the problem is even more severe, and the SEUs (Single Event Upset) that are discussed in electronics and computer engineering are happening to human beings.

      Several astronauts have reported seeing strange lightning flashes in space, these are caused when particles are hitting the eyes and induce a small charge in the eye (much like SEUs in RAM). So, yes, it is a good point to be concerned over the radiation level in space.

    6. Re:Cool test methodology by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      I am thinking that for really serious long range space travel we'll need some sort of magnetic field projected around the craft, like a mini-version of the Earth's field. That of course would have enormous power requirements. Oh well. Maybe when we have practical fusion power.

  8. What? by Barryke · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    No this is all wrong in so many ways..

    --
    Hivemind harvest in progress..
    1. Re:What? by Barryke · · Score: 1

      Does i get moderated offtopic?

      Whomever modded me: I actually am very on-topic. Check the article's first line. Its just wrong on so many ways. And then there's the other comments. And the article.

      And me losing faith in certain fond aspects of humanity.

      --
      Hivemind harvest in progress..
  9. I Can't Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



    For the botnets.

    1. Re:I Can't Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Astronaut/Cosmonaut botnets or nautbotnets (nautbot) for short. But not notbotnets.

  10. well.... by KozmoKramer · · Score: 5, Funny

    I see a job opportunity for a network engineer, or at the very least a network cabling repair guy. Imagine that help desk ticket @ NASA.......

    --
    My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my Father! Prepare to die!
    1. Re:well.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, I get paid 55 cents a kilometer for service calls. I definitely want this job, although my Honda Civic might have a tough time getting to orbit.

    2. Re:well.... by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Some sorta hybrid might be what you need.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:well.... by ggvaidya · · Score: 3, Funny

      First a plumber, and now an IT helpdesk guy. NASA's really trying to reach out to the common man.

    4. Re:well.... by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1
      As long as you don't mind your Civic at the end of this:

      http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/delta/delta4/delta4.htm

      Delta IV vehicles can launch payloads weighing from 4,300 kg (9,480 lb) to 12,980 kg (28,620 lb) to GTO, and can lift over 23,000 kg (50,000 lbs.) to LEO.

      I have not doubt a Delta IV Heavy Lifter can get your Civic to the ISS =)

    5. Re:well.... by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 3, Funny

      Space is only an hour's drive away, if your Civic can drive straight up.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
    6. Re:well.... by IdeaMan · · Score: 1

      For that he'd need a Ferarri. To get there in an hour he'd need to go 217 mph.

      --
      They ARE out to get you simply because They are in it for themselves and they don't care about you.
    7. Re:well.... by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 1

      I said "space", not "the International Space Station". The internationally recognized boundary for "space" is at 100km (62 miles) altitude.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
  11. Rebecca! Save yourself!! by th0mas.sixbit.org · · Score: 5, Funny

    He's a nerd! Save yourself Rebecca!

    (before you mod OT look at submission again ;) )

    --
    twitter.com/gravitronic
    1. Re:Rebecca! Save yourself!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      This is /. He's a nerd. He needs all the relationship help he can get, and you're scaring her off?

    2. Re:Rebecca! Save yourself!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn it, I went to all the trouble trying to find an article and she reads right over it!
      And now it's 2 AM in the morning and by the time she wakes up to check Slashdot this will be at the bottom of the feed.
      Bah, not only do people not RTFA they don't RTFS!
      I don't know what I see in her :P

    3. Re:Rebecca! Save yourself!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://formyrebecca.blogspot.com/

    4. Re:Rebecca! Save yourself!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he has to ask through slashdot, I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

  12. is anyone paying attention? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    HP are bottom-of-the-barrel outsourcers now. Trusting HP to provide networking equipment for the space station would be a scaling up of trusting me, an amateur electronics geek, to build radio receivers for emergency workers. I know I can build working kit and I'm fairly cheap, but I've never had to begin contemplating the construction of gear that needs to be so reliable that great efforts will be wasted and people will probably die if I get it wrong. Neither AC's Shack nor HP Procurve switches are designed to "people will die if you fuck up" spec - that's what military spec is for, and that's why people pay extra for it.

    A strong tutting to the Europeans for once again demonstrating that they're no less willing to compromise if a company in desperate need of good PR is willing to slip them a few pennies.

    1. Re:is anyone paying attention? by cyclone96 · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are absolutely correct, which is why nothing on these networks is something on which life depends.

      I'm going to greatly simplify this, but there are basically three networks onboard the space station. One is mostly off the shelf laptops and networking equipment that runs Windows and is used for crew support (email, procedures, timelines, photos, and such). It frequently needs maintenance, but it does the job. It's also (relatively) easy to certify and plug new hardware into it, so it can be updated frequently as commercial technology advances (for example, later this year the Thinkpad A31p laptops will be swapped out for newer models).

      The second is a payload ethernet network that is used by the payload system to collect and downlink high volume data through the USOS Ku-band system. Failure of this network only impacts science collection and some support activities. These switches are part of this network. The standards are more stringent, but not to the level of stuff on which safety or mission success depends.

      The third network is the core computer system, which is all custom built hardware/software wired up with MIL-STD 1553 data bus. This is the network which runs the core vehicle systems (life support, attitude control, what have you). The hardware and software are developed to a much more rigorous standard than the first two networks (and it obviously costs a lot more and is slower to update because the the long pole of certification and testing). Some of the machines on this network have been chugging along for nearly a decade without failure.

      --
      Worst...sig...ever!
    2. Re:is anyone paying attention? by sjf · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but isn't this simply racism ? If a product is outsourced (which we know is a euphemism for "made in China") do we have to assume that it is crap ?
      The damn thing sat in a particle accelerator for three years and presumably still worked. Perhaps the Chinese can actually build these things ?

      You point about MIL-SPEC is taken, however, presumably if HP were claiming it was MIL-SPEC they would have done the certification themselves.
      They didn't and NASA did some certification themselves. I don't doubt for a minute that with sufficient financial incentive HP would be perfectly happy to deliver MIL_SPEC switches hand built by union workers in the Good 'Ol USA. Except of course the only unionized workers for HP, as for Walmart, live in China.

    3. Re:is anyone paying attention? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Some of the machines on this network have been chugging along for nearly a decade without failure."

      I see. So they are running norton anti-virus?

  13. obligatory by Lost+Penguin · · Score: 5, Funny

    In space, no one can hear the NIC scream.

    --
    I am the unwilling control for my Origin.
  14. How will the RIAA/MPAA be able to sue them? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Do they have a mailing address?

  15. The "HAM" sats did it a decade ago by mbone · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Amateur Radio satellites went to an Ethernet backbone some time ago - over a decade IIRC.

    1. Re:The "HAM" sats did it a decade ago by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Orbiting HAMs ... brings new meaning to the phrase "High And Mighty".

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:The "HAM" sats did it a decade ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 10Mbps Ethernet bus was flown on SSTL's UoSAT-12, launched in 1999.

  16. Am I the only one... by jpellino · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... that was relieved and surprised it wasn't "hub" and "10Base2"?

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
    1. Re:Am I the only one... by seanadams.com · · Score: 2, Informative

      ... that was relieved and surprised it wasn't "hub" and "10Base2"?

      I'm not sure if you realize this, but 10base2 (aka thin net) doesn't use hubs. It's a shared 50 ohm coax with tees at each device and terminator plugs on each end. It uses CS/MACD like a hub, but the electronics and physical topology are totally different.

    2. Re:Am I the only one... by tabrisnet · · Score: 1

      I dunno, the old spec did allow for repeaters on a thinnet network.

    3. Re:Am I the only one... by ddusza · · Score: 1

      I was shocked that it wasn't an old IBM 4MB Token Ring MAU they were using--10MB half-duplex? That switch is barely using enough of it's processing power to radiate packets at that speed.... Sheesh!

      --
      Don't fear the penguins
    4. Re:Am I the only one... by jpellino · · Score: 1

      Our first campus network was Farallon Starlet hubs linked by thinnet. Mercifully it is no more.

      --
      "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  17. Re:obligatory jabber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NICs don't scream. They jabber.

  18. vulnerability by Iamthecheese · · Score: 0, Troll

    Relevent.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    1. Re:vulnerability by darkpixel2k · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Off topic, but I'm confused as hell by your sig:

      Child pornography: Thought crime. Terrorism: Your government wants you to be afraid.

      Child pornography is a thought crime? Are you serious?
      Taking someone who is not mentally or physically ready for sexual intercourse and forcing it upon them without consent is a thought crime? Spend a night in jail with "bubba" and tell me it's a thought crime.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    2. Re:vulnerability by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 3, Funny

      Won't someone think of the child molesters?

    3. Re:vulnerability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I am sure the OP's implication is not that "creating child pornography by taking photographs or videos of children being abused" is a thought crime. The thought crime occurs when one is punished merely for possessing such images, on the assumption that he or she is aroused. Possessing a photograph or video of a non-sexual physical assault, or a murder, is not against the law.

      Another thought crime occurs in the UK when a scene depicting sexual activity with a child is created without actually involving any children - e.g. 3d rendering or adult actresses with youthful features. This is illegal, and the only "offence" as such is in fantasising that some real abuse has occurred. Possessing a film in which a physical assault, or a murder, is acted out, or drawing a picture of such activity, is not against the law.

      By targeting those who abuse children or, as a second priority, those who actually pay for the products of abuse, children are helped. But targeting those who merely possess images - real, acted or sketched - is helping child abusers, by occupying resources that should be used to track, arrest and lock up the abusers, and rehabilitate the victims. It is also perpetuating a broken system of rights, in which a man is punished for having a sequence of bits in a particular order on his hard drive; it misdiagnoses paedophilia as a crime rather than a disorder, making it harder to deal with paedophiles; it perpetuates the myth that child abusers are likely to be men lurking in the shady corners of the Internet, when an abused child is almost always abused by a family member or close family friend.

      Put another way, to pursue the mere possession of child pornography will inevitably result in a society where child abuse is more likely to go unchecked, and where freedoms in general are curtailed. Thousands of paedophiles right now are thinking about violating children like your young son or daughter, but just as millions of heterosexual men fantasise about adult women every day without raping them, so too are your children safe from fantasy; they're also safe from people half way around the world who are masturbating furiously over a photoshopping of a pic you put up on .mac of little Gemma in her first bathing costume. But they're not safe from Uncle Jim.

      And I'm sorry for going off on a rant, but "how do you deal with child porn" is pretty much the ultimate question for testing someone's scope of rationality and freedom. I'm from Spain, which hasn't even reached the stage of understanding why I should be allowed to carry a gun and my neighbor is allowed to describe me by combining simple sounds denoted by letters s,p,i,c without being locked in a cell.

    4. Re:vulnerability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, I guess -1 disagree?

    5. Re:vulnerability by Iamthecheese · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      No, rape is no thought crime. Practicing pedophelia is no thought crime. In my opinion, both of those actions should be severely punished. Taking, having, sending, or selling pictures of those real crimes, however, is a thought crime.

      thought crime: a crime defined as having or transmitting information.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    6. Re:vulnerability by darkpixel2k · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      No, rape is no thought crime. Practicing pedophelia is no thought crime. In my opinion, both of those actions should be severely punished. Taking, having, sending, or selling pictures of those real crimes, however, is a thought crime.

      thought crime: a crime defined as having or transmitting information.

      ...and yet you chose "child pornography" instead of something less detestable, like "downloading movies", or "stealing wifi". I get the point you are trying to make--thought crimes, but you picked a horrible way of presenting it.

      It's similar to the legal situation where cops can arrest you for possessing drugs, but not for actually being high.
      Of course possessing kiddie porn is another matter entirely. Someone might be able to make the argument that it's a thought crime, but everyone else will want to see that someone hanged regardless.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
  19. Cylon Attack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And thus the downfall of mankind is assured. We've networked computers in space. Has no one learned anything from Battlestar Galactica?

  20. Cost? by Straterra · · Score: 2, Interesting

    10Mbit switch? Am I the only one who thought "Gee, I would have though NASA could have afforded at least 100Mbit!"

    The only reason I can come up with is the possibility of higher packet loss with all of the radiation. Does anyone know for sure?

    1. Re:Cost? by kju · · Score: 1

      WTF are you talking about? This is a 10/100 Switch.

    2. Re:Cost? by JustOK · · Score: 4, Funny

      Bits weigh less in space, so they're easier to compress.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:Cost? by The+Psyko · · Score: 1

      AND half-duplex

    4. Re:Cost? by Straterra · · Score: 1

      Yes..what I was quoting from was "The switch will form part of a half duplex 10Mbps local area network (LAN) on board the International Space Station (ISS)" in the article. I'm just curious as to why it is still a half duplex 10Mbit network...

    5. Re:Cost? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "I'm just curious as to why it is still a half duplex 10Mbit network..."

      Because any change on the systems aboard brings a paperweight of about 10MTon half duplex (first you send your request for change, then the change office challenges your intention, then you reissue, etc.) on average.

      And it's a good thing too.

  21. Why is this news? by thesandbender · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seriously... zero-g has no effect on this equipment. Yes it has to have more radiation shielding and has to be shock mounted to survive the launch but other that it could be an iPod or a DirectTV DVR. There's nothing innovative about this. They shot an ethernet switch into space... big deal. Call me when someone invents a way to use quantum entanglement to communicate faster than light. That's news.

    1. Re:Why is this news? by ahecht · · Score: 1, Informative

      Zero-G has a HUGE effect on anything relying on convective cooling. There is no convection in zero-g, so EVERY hot component needs forced air cooling, which you rarely find in a switch.

    2. Re:Why is this news? by brxndxn · · Score: 1

      I found a fan in my HP Procurve 2524.. maybe that's how it passed all those amazing tests.

      --
      --- We need more Ron Paul!
    3. Re:Why is this news? by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      EVERY hot component needs forced air cooling, which you rarely find in a switch. That's only true for basic edge switches and stuff targeted at home-users.
      Most professional switches rely on fans for cooling.

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    4. Re:Why is this news? by thesandbender · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can't be serious. Almost every enterprise Ethernet switch has fans. Including the terrestial model of the ProCurve 2524.

    5. Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What rack mount switch doesn't have an annoying fan droning on and on and on?

    6. Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bollocks. You ever bought a switch that wasn't a $5 one?

    7. Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd say you're quite wrong about not finding forced air cooling in a switch. Almost every managed rackmount switch with integrated power supply has fans for cooling. Desktop switches or switches with external "brick" powersupplies are something entirely different.

    8. Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rarely? Just about every 24-or-greater-port enterprise-class switch I've ever worked with has fans...

    9. Re:Why is this news? by mbone · · Score: 1

      The ISS has lots of fans. Listen to a TV broadcast from there sometimes.

      In space, the use of heat pipes is also fairly common - I wonder when this technology will start being used with blades in colos, given the density you can rack mount blades.

    10. Re:Why is this news? by node159 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that if you place one of these 'passively' cooled switches in space, it will quite merrily cook itself to death as the heat it generates will not dissipate, air is an excellent insulator, you know.

      --
      GPLv2: I want my rights, I want my phone call! DRM: What use is a phone call, if you are unable to speak?
    11. Re:Why is this news? by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      Exactly, so solution is to not use consumer-grade hardware in space... =)

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
  22. the answer is no. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm looking for a man with more artistic and outdoorsy interests. Besides, Hewlett Packard really gave Carly a raw deal.

    -Reb

  23. Re:obligatory jabber by dreamchaser · · Score: 2, Funny

    Unless they suffer from congestion.

  24. Brown.... by mikelieman · · Score: 5, Funny

    You ever ship anything UPS? If it survive *them*, launching into orbit should be a no-brainer.

    --
    Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
    1. Re:Brown.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh ya? Well, just wait till UPS ships interplanetary!

  25. This guy is sick by kju · · Score: 2, Informative

    > http://formyrebecca.blogspot.com/

    When i read this, i felt the need to puke. This guy says he is together with his girlfriend for two years and want to marry her but yet he does still not know what she likes. And in order to find out he shows a total lack of integrity and installs a keylogger on her machine! This is a cruel break of trust. I really hope she finds out and tosses him. This is imho absolutely sick behaviour. And whats even worse that he apparently is even proud of his act of dishonesty and blogs about it.

    1. Re:This guy is sick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His blog has since been removed.

    2. Re:This guy is sick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blog dead. Mirror?

  26. Token Ring? by aggles · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wasn't the first network for the ISS based on Token-ring? I participated in an Ethernet vs Token-ring RFP in the mid-80's against IBM and we lost the bid. We didn't play golf as well.

    1. Re:Token Ring? by cyclone96 · · Score: 1

      The Space Station Freedom network design was token-ring, but that design was scratched when the redesign happened in the '90s. The McDonnell-Douglas/IBM avionics team was also dropped in favor of Boeing/Honeywell. The only IBM equipment that was used on ISS were Thinkpads.

      --
      Worst...sig...ever!
  27. Cisco Equipment on ISS by Timoteo47 · · Score: 1
    When I was at Cisco a few years ago, the VP of Corp. Marketing sent out a mysterious e-mail message about Cisco winning a big government contract. The conditions of the project prohibited Cisco from disclosing that they won the contract and Cisco could not publicly mention the "ISS" project.

    The general assumption in the company was that that NASA was using Cisco routers and switches in the International Space Station. I volunteered to be the on-site SE.

    So I doubt that the ProCurve switch is the first ethernet switch in space.

  28. Delay Tolerant Internet by mbone · · Score: 1

    Delay Tolerant Internet (or DTN) is the current version of Vint Cerf's
    "Interplanetary Internet" - basically, making a TCP-like protocol in situations where there may be long delays and no end-to-end connectivity. I thought that there was a test of this on a shuttle flight but cannot find a link, Vint Cerf last year talked about a test in 2010.

    To me, that is a lot more interesting than just having a switch in LEO.

    1. Re:Delay Tolerant Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Delay Tolerant Networking has been tested on a low Earth orbiting satellite.

      http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/publications/

      Delay/Disruption-Tolerant Network Testing Using a LEO Satellite
              Will Ivancic, Wes Eddy, Lloyd Wood, Dave Stewart, Chris Jackson, James Northam, Alex da Silva Curiel.
              Describes use of Saratoga and the DTNRG bundle protocol for delay-tolerant networking.
              Eighth Annual NASA Earth Science Technology Conference (ESTC 2008), University of Maryland, June 2008.

  29. Penalty for f-ing up by wsanders · · Score: 1

    I've ordered equipment I didn't like and had to replace. The ISS doesn't really have such extraordinary environmental requirements as much as the price up screwing up is so much higher. At about $10K per pound, that's about 2000X as expensive as UPS for "shipping and handling".

    http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/FutronLaunchCostWP.pdf

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
  30. Which is it? by roblaird · · Score: 1
    From TFA: The switch was taken straight off the conveyor belt without modification.

    Also from TFA: The switch underwent three years of development, configuration and qualification testing before it journeyed into space.

    Huh?

    1. Re:Which is it? by SBrach · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's what you get for reading TFA.

    2. Re:Which is it? by Jerry+Smith · · Score: 1

      From TFA: The switch was taken straight off the conveyor belt without modification.

      Also from TFA: The switch underwent three years of development, configuration and qualification testing before it journeyed into space.

      Huh?

      I understand they took off-the-shelve hardware, and ran tests on it for 3 years. No hardware modification, no tweaks etc.
      --
      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
  31. Radiation by PacketScan · · Score: 1

    Hmm wonder if it would with stand an emp blast.
    Tell me the only network up will be hp switches, I'll just kill myself now.

  32. A HP Procurve 2524!!! by jabuzz · · Score: 0, Troll

    It's a nice switch, but for goodness sake. This switch has been obsolete for at least three years!!!

    It's a 24 10/100 port managed switch, with *optional* uplink modules at 1Gbps; fibre and copper available or some propriety stacking modules. It also has a couple of fans!!

    There are far better switches that are passively cooled, use less power, are cheaper and better performing...

    1. Re:A HP Procurve 2524!!! by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      Passive cooling doesn't work in space. Here on earth hot air will rise away from a hot component, but in 0G it acts like an insulator and blankets to component in heat.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    2. Re:A HP Procurve 2524!!! by mrbooze · · Score: 1

      It's a nice switch, but for goodness sake. This switch has been obsolete for at least three years!!! "The switch underwent three years of development, configuration and qualification testing before it journeyed into space."

  33. So I guess it now drops packets by rwwyatt · · Score: 1

    in style!

  34. meanwhile on MIR by GregNorc · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Russians used a pencil

  35. More related (but older) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Real-time encoding and streaming from space.

    http://www.digital-rapids.com/News/PressArchive/NASA.aspx

  36. Damn you NASA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will never hear the end of this from my HP reps..

  37. Procurve? Really? by crossmr · · Score: 1

    Why?
    These are switches for whom spanning tree is a foreign concept. They claim to support it, but default set up out of the box seems to be if you put 2 crossover cables between 2 procurve switches it will create a switching loop rather than disable one. Not a great idea when our product relies heavily on multicast. It took me a few minutes to figure out why the CPU usage on a workstation that I had just plugged in and hadn't installed anything on was at like 50-60% within about 2 minutes because I wasn't expecting this kind of basic issue on new equipment...
    These were new switches out of the box, only a few months ago.
    Are you telling me NASA couldn't afford Cisco?

    1. Re:Procurve? Really? by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      Maybe they're just capable of configuring the switch before hooking it up to their network? It's not rocket science, after all.

      According to the article, they tested switches from Cisco as well as D-Link, Avaya, 3Com and NetGear. They don't say why the chose the HP over the others though. They did make a mention of the simplicity of the circuits being beneficial, but didn't say whether Cisco's gear didn't survive the tests, or whether HP was simply the cheapest of the surviving devices.

    2. Re:Procurve? Really? by crossmr · · Score: 1

      We worked mainly with cisco switches which came with either stacking modules or had spanning tree enabled by default. There is a reason spanning tree exists and should be generally enabled by default on most switching hardware. I was perfectly capable of enabling spanning tree and did so once I discovered the problem. The problem was simply that it was not enabled by default which is a rather unexpected behaviour for switching hardware at least in my experience and that of my coworkers.

      The only benefit I ever found with the HP switches was that they were a cheap layer 3 capable switch compared to Cisco.
      The 2800 series switches we occasionally used supported vlans and would route traffic between them without a router being present as opposed to the 2900 series from cisco which required a router or moving to the 3700 series.

      If you don't need the layer 3 capability to route between vlans though the price wasn't significantly cheaper than a 2900 series cisco switch, at least from our vendors to really justify picking them though.

  38. HP Switches by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    When I worked for state government we were relocating the I.T. unit along with a few other units to a new building. I evaluated Cisco, and HP products and settled on an HP4108 switch. It still works flawlessly.

  39. wow read the article. by majortom1981 · · Score: 1

    First off, We use hp switches at work and we have procurve 4000 switches that have been running for a while with no problems. we also bought newer(at the time) 4100 switches and they havent had any problems either. also this switch had to go through 3 years of testing. thats why it may seem obsolete now.

  40. not true.. by roeles · · Score: 1

    There already has been a WRT54GL with IPv6 in space iirc.

    --
    I think you ought to know I am feeling very depressed...
  41. From ProCurve website by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It says you have LifeTime warranty, as long as "you own the device", with

    > Next-business-day delivery of a replacement unit for the entire warranty period (available in many locations around the world)

    I'd like to see that, really.

    1. Re:From ProCurve website by hob42 · · Score: 1

      I like the wording of "around the world" but they can still weasel out of it by pointing out they said "many," not "all."

  42. Perfect application for the Denon AK-DL1 by dhollist · · Score: 1

    What better place to use the Ultra Premium Denon Link Cable? Comments here please.

  43. not first switch in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not the first commercial switch/router in space, by about 5 years. NASA Glenn Research Center flew an essentially unmodified Cisco router on a small satellite from Surrey Satellites. Check out CLEO.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLEO_(router)

    Not only that, but the station and shuttle both have onboard ethernet, and somehow, I suspect they aren't ThickNet.

  44. Source? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The original post matches word-for-word the opening paragraph from iTWire's story http://www.itwire.com/content/view/18752/53/ on the subject, but it links to a Computerworld article.

    What's that all about?