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Anti-Technology Technologies?

shanen writes "A story from the NYTimes about metering internet traffic caught my eye. I thought the exchange of information over the Internet was supposed to be a good thing? Couldn't we use technology more constructively? For example, if there is too much network traffic for video and radio channels, why don't we offset with the increased use of P2P technologies like BitTorrent? Why don't we use wireless networks to reduce the traffic on the wired infrastructure? Such technologies often have highly desirable properties. For example, BitTorrent is excellent for rapidly increasing the availability of popular files while automatically balancing the network traffic, since the faster and closer connections will automatically wind up being favored. Instead, we have an increasing trend for anti-technology technologies and twisted narrow economic solutions such as those discussed in the NYTimes article, and attempts to restrict the disruptive communications technologies. You may remember how FM radio was delayed for years; part of the security requirements of a major company includes anti-P2P software, as well as locking down the wireless communications extremely tightly — but there are still gaps for the bad guys, while the main victims are the legitimate users of these technologies. Can you think of other examples? Do you have constructive solutions?"

146 comments

  1. Control by Xiph · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's a matter of balancing control against efficiency.

    Understanding the workings of an entire swarm is is not easy.

    With a swarm it is harder to differentiate for "elite" customers who pay to get that extra bandwidth.
    Where you are in the swarm will matter just as much as which connection you're paying for.

    --
    Blah blah sig blah blah blah irony blah blah
    1. Re:Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Business wonn't use alternative sources to rapidly deploy data because theres no money in it for other businesses to "help" in the deployment.

      The increase in anti-tech tech creates more dollars for the big businesses that provide your connection to the www.

      Atleast thats how it feels like here down under. Plans are getting worse and worse, and much more strict in the "acceptible user policies"

    2. Re:Control by PPH · · Score: 1, Insightful

      With a swarm it is harder to differentiate for "elite" customers who pay to get that extra bandwidth.

      But does this justify delaying its introduction? Must we wait for any new technology until someone figures out how to squeeze every last dollar out of the rich folks?

      This is the whole point of technological advancement: To provide goods and services of higher quality for lower price than what was available in the past. If someone happens to be making a living providing the low quality, expensive crap to a small market niche and some innovation undercuts their business model, that's just tough.

      There appears to be far too much emphasis made by companies on protecting their 'market' as if a market was some sort of property that they own. Well, I happen to be a part of that market and nobody owns me. IIRC, Lincoln freed the slaves.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:Control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Business wonn't use alternative sources to rapidly deploy data because theres no money in it for other businesses to "help" in the deployment. Now that's just plain ignorant. Ad-supported download mirrors have been around since Internet immemorial. Want a few dedicated torrent seeds? Just run an in-house tracker/client pair, rent out a few dedicated/virtual-dedicated servers and you can cover a continent. (You don't even have to cover that much land, just piggyback on the users.)
      Businesses are using alternative sources and there is money in it.

      The increase in anti-tech tech creates more dollars for the big businesses that provide your connection to the www. But there's more than the WWW and people (people with money) are bound to get irritated by ISPs specifically targeting their new, cheap medium. At least that's how it's turning out in the US.
  2. So many questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One answer: No.

  3. The oldest solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    is still the best solution.

    USENET

    1. Re:The oldest solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer Gopher for downloading Blu Ray rips.

    2. Re:The oldest solution... by magamiako1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Zil:

      I take it you're new to the internet. USENET is still a point-to-point protocol from A to B, and this is where the problem comes in. You have a significant amount of traffic going over that single point.

      With torrent and peer-to-peer distribution, you have smaller amounts of traffic coming from many different points.

      Load Balancing, Clustering, P2P--are all technologies favored by the IT industry. If your distribution node goes down, nobody cares because you have others. There's no single point of failure in a peer-to-peer distribution system.

      P2P should be used in pretty much every scenario requiring high bandwidth of highly popular media. (Which is actually fairly common on the internet). This drastically will reduce bandwidth costs for the people paying and improve end-user experience.

      If we had Torrent before FilePlanet went pay, they probably would have never gone in that direction.

    3. Re:The oldest solution... by aj50 · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. This article is ISPs introducing bandwidth limits due to some users using "too much" of their unlimited bandwidth. This is mostly a problem for ISPs because they have to pay for all the traffic they direct out of their own network.

      Running a news sever allows the ISP to download all the messages once from remote news servers and then only distribute them to customers within their own network.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    4. Re:The oldest solution... by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What are you talking about, there is no Usenet.

      Also, try to remember the first rule.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    5. Re:The oldest solution... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bittorrent is *not* more bandwidth efficient. It is merely more efficient for the distributor. It uses at a minimum the same amount - normally more in fact, due to its forcing of uploads (many torrents throttle based on upload and few will let you block uploads completely) but it's spread across the users. It's also far slower than other methods.. so is only better if your time is worth nothing.

      BT is a major problem the ISPs need to deal with - if you download something over usenet or FTP once it's done it's done. On BT unless you actively kill the connection it'll continue sucking bandwidth... that contributes to something like 60% of average ISP traffic being P2P, and why it's increasingly being blocked.

    6. Re:The oldest solution... by ardle · · Score: 1

      I think you're saying that the problem with BitTorrent is that people don't know how to use it.
      This puts the onus on the authors of BitTorrent clients to build reasonable defaults in. Maybe something could be done with the protocol, too?
      Seems to me that it's possible that a lot of people haven't got their heads around the concept of sharing yet; they aren't thinking about what happens to stuff after they download it. It's a bit like litter ;-)

    7. Re:The oldest solution... by magamiako1 · · Score: 1

      And how many people use their ISPs news servers to get the content they want? There are various news sites that are extremely popular due to retention time and access to content for a reason.

    8. Re:The oldest solution... by magamiako1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Tony:

      The very fact that you stated "Bittorrent is slower than other methods" of file distribution shows that you have very little grasp on file distribution and limits to bandwidth.

      I've had to deal with it directly, as a content producer.

      There is not very much more efficient distribution out there than a peer to peer model.

    9. Re:The oldest solution... by aj50 · · Score: 1

      But if ISPs really wanted to solve this problem, they could set up their server with better retention time and access and advertise their service better.

      Blueyonder had a very good newsgroup setup which fortunately still works after Virgin Media inherited it.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    10. Re:The oldest solution... by magamiako1 · · Score: 1

      aj50:

      You fail to address the situation that newsgroup access is "A to B" distribution. In the event that A dies, then B has nowhere to get the file from. Sure, you could cluster A1, A2, A3 and if A1 dies you still have A2 and A3 to deliver to B. But in the event the route between A and B dies, A1-A3 now cannot deliver to B.

      Then you still have the situation of A to B being limited on bandwidth. A to B might be fast, but A to B & C immediately cuts the bandwidth in half. You have to hope that B and C use their bandwidth differently or at different times. Perhaps B uses A's bandwidth during the daytime hours, perhaps C uses the bandwidth during nighttime hours.

      P2P distribution provides a network that is vastly scalable and redundant. It solves all of these problems dynamically. Mesh networking provides the greatest redundancy for distribution, which is far better than a simple logical star setup (which is what you propose).

      If bits and pieces of a file reside on A, B, and C, and D comes in to get that file--He can get it from A, B, or C. A could drop off the map, B and C can still dstribute the same file to D. It's far less likely that A, B, and C are going to disappear all at the same time.

      And not only is it fantastic for redundancy, there is *0* drop. In the event your news server dropped, you would have to make a new connection to a new news server that is online and restart the transfer. In a p2p mesh distribution model, the only thing you would see if A went offline? A drop in performance as A is no longer there. But if B and C weren't at full capacity, you could increase the load on B & C to give to D by halves.

      There's really no way you can argue AGAINST this method of distribution. Really. The reason ISPs are complaining is that they over sold their infrastructure.

    11. Re:The oldest solution... by aj50 · · Score: 1

      I agree with all your points about an ISP news server being a single point of failure. A P2P system copes much better with the loss of a random node (bittorrent before trackerless torrents excepted).

      However, a dedicated news server can take advantage of the fact that some parts of the network are faster than others. My line is limited to 8Mb/s. Even assuming I could upload at that speed, I can only send data at 8Mb/s.

      Since the ISP owns and has set up the network, they can set up the news server so that it has more bandwidth.

      Assuming A is the news server and has a 100MBit connection to the rest of the ISPs network and has the data and B and C both want it, A can serve data to both B and C at the same time (as well as ten other people).

      I don't know what sort of topology an ISPs network typically has. At the outer most edges, it is a star (with all the customer's lines meeting at the exchange). In an ideal situation, placing a news server at the center of the star halves the bandwidth required for distribution compared to a P2P solution. Additionally, it gives the ISP more flexibility, they can more easily find the best way of routing usenet data and place news servers in the most efficient points of their network.

      There is no reason that the Bittorrent-esqe way of splitting a file into "blocks" couldn't be implemented in a client server model as well. Already, many download managers will resume an HTTP download and there's no technical reason that the same thing shouldn't be possible on usenet.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    12. Re:The oldest solution... by magamiako1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But your method has one glaring flaw. Cost and complexity. And planning.

      One of the really odd things about p2p technology is that it also distributes the cost of distribution. Whereas you could say the ISP could add more, add more this, add more that--in some and many cases this becomes cost prohibitve to have to keep up that infrastructure, especially if the cost is burdened by one entity.

      By using peer to peer technology, that cost is distributed across all of the users simiarly--not equally, but similarly. And in torrent's case, it's also pretty good at making sure users that can use higher bandwidth also need to incur a higher cost. If you can distribute more, the protocol allocates more to give you more to distribute.

      It's kind of automatic in nature, self healing, distributive, with no single points of failure and no glaring flaws.

      The only reason this is even "argued" is because ISPs didn't build the infrastructure to handle this. And the only other reason this is argued is because a lot of people are selfish and feel the cost shouldn't be burdened by them.

      But I'd rather have say, 10 cents here, 20 cents there, than the ISP assuming I'm always going to use 20 cents and charge me accordingly for access to their distribution servers.

    13. Re:The oldest solution... by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Erm... Read the story just above this one. Usenet fails to think of the children, therefore no Usenet for you.

      Also the net neutrality is about the "average" user, I really doubt that the "average" can differenciate between Google Groups and plain ol' Usenet. I'm guessing that maybe >1% of modern traffic is because of Usenet.

      Oh and, to fulfill the cliche requirement for all comments, "the first rule of Usenet is?"

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    14. Re:The oldest solution... by shanen · · Score: 1

      That is not true. BitTorrent automatically optimizes the distribution pattern for maximum efficiency, and the efficiency automatically increases as the number of copies increases. That is precisely because the closest peers will respond most quickly and thereby succeed in transmitting the most data.

      An alternative way to consider it is if you were trying to design an optimum local caching strategy to minimize distant transfers. Bit torrents essentially make every copy into a local cache. How can you get higher than 100%?

      --
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    15. Re:The oldest solution... by kelnos · · Score: 1

      I think from the customer ISP's perspective it's more about where the data is coming from. In the "old" model, a client downloads a video (for example) directly from the content provider. On the client end, they generate 700MB (again, for example) of downstream traffic. The content provider generates that same 700MB of traffic for their ISP, upstream this time. The content provider presumably is paying through the nose for bandwidth (at least compared to the client), and is probably metered such that they pay for what they use.

      In the BitTorrent model, the client still generates that same 700MB of downstream traffic, but now they generate a certain amount of upstream traffic as well, sometimes as much or as more than the downstream traffic.

      The client's ISP isn't used to all this extra traffic. The fact that the content provider now has lower bandwidth bills is irrelevant to the consumer ISP. The fact that BitTorrent is technically overall more efficient than a direct download is also irrelevant to the consumer ISP. From the consumer ISP's point of view, they have a *lot* more traffic flowing over their network. That's the so-called problem they're seeing. Personally I think they should just suck it up and upgrade their networks so they're actually providing what they advertise, but the money for these upgrades doesn't just grow on trees.

      --
      Xfce: Lighter than some, heavier than others. Just right.
    16. Re:The oldest solution... by magamiako1 · · Score: 1

      kelnos:

      I agree, this is the situation or is part of the overall situation. However, my responses to Tony were such that as a pure file transfer performance and availability standpoint, mesh distribution networks (peer to peer) are significantly better than a "star" distribution network (server -> clientA, clientB, clientC)

    17. Re:The oldest solution... by aj50 · · Score: 1

      The ISP has to carry your bandwidth whether they're serving the content or not. If your traffic is leaving their network, it costs them more.

      P2P does distribute the cost over all users. You can only distribute as fast as your connection allows it and you will receive in proportion to how much you distribute. However, the ISP is still having to pay for the bandwidth you actually use (since they sell you "unlimited" access but usually pay their provider by the gigabyte).

      Lets consider two systems (bittorrent and usenet) in the following scenario:
      A is a content provider who wants to publish a file.
      B and C are customers of an ISP, Q who both want to download A's file.

      Bittorrent:
      A creates a torrent, uploads it to a public tracker, B, C and a whole lot of other people (using different ISPs) all download the torrent file and start leaching A's file.
      Assuming B and C are both considerate users with a 1:1 share ratio, Q will have to pay for enough bandwidth to cover four times the size of A's file.

      Usenet:
      A uploads their file to a newsgroup. Q's news server downloads the message(s) sent by A containing their file. B and C both download A's file from the Q's news server.
      Here Q additionally has to maintain a news server and still has to provide the bandwidth for B and C to download the file from it once each (although this traffic stays within their own network so the cost is minimal). Q also has to pay for the bandwidth to download the file once (from an external news server).

      Using usenet, Q has only has to pay their provider a quarter of what they would have to pay if B and C use bittorrent. Whether this is enough to offset the cost of running a news server depends on how many users download the content.

      Here's a more specific example: let A be ubuntu.com which provides access to the ubuntu software repository and let B and C be ubuntu users who regularly download software from the ubuntu repository. It makes sense for Q to mirror the ubuntu repository and let B and C download from there instead. This gives B and C a better experience (the server is closer and hence faster) and reduces Q's bandwidth bill.

      Virgin Media (despite all their failings) actually have an ubuntu repository and run newsgroups (but probably only because they inherited them from ntl who inherited them from blueyonder).

      Another example where a local mirror (since that's essentially what an ISP's news server is) might be beneficial is with the BBC iPlayer service where a limited amount of content needs to be distributed among a large group of users.

      --
      I wish to remain anomalous
    18. Re:The oldest solution... by magamiako1 · · Score: 1

      But then you run into the situation of local mirrors require storage space, build-out of infrastructure, a team dedicated to making sure the content stays secure.

      Contracts with OEMs to provide support for the local hardware as necessary.

      Even then, local mirror goes down for whatever reason, and the users have to end up going out of the ISP anyway.

      For that matter, most people who end up using "usenet" actually use a provider that isn't their ISP. This is largely due to access to content as well as retention time.

      Not to mention, say content expands beyond expected growth potential. This isn't entirely unheard of in the IT market, you end up having to build out, re-assess, and quickly implement new solutions to keep up.

      As popularity grows on peer to peer distribution, it scales to meet that need rather gracefully. In the case of torrent, your tracker may get overloaded with requests but it's far easier to setup another tracker and get it listening than it is to mirror gigabytes of data across the internet to be able to distribute the content to people that request it.

      P2P distribution is simply the best way looking forward to lower overall costs while gracefully handling not only content *availability, but distribution *scalability. *Buzzwords

    19. Re:The oldest solution... by zsau · · Score: 1

      It's also far slower than other methods.. so is only better if your time is worth nothing.

      Not remotely true. With tv shows it generally doesn't matter when you've got it, as long as you've got it reasonably timely. (Well, if it took six months to download, I might as well just wait for it to be shown down here rather than pirating it, but any quicker than that and I'm in front. Of course for those who live in countries where these media actually come from, presumably it's quicker than waiting for a rerun or the DVD release which explains why you're trying to pirate it.) And you don't need to spend a heap of time babysitting it. All you do is say "Start downloading" and then you can go away and earn money, have fun with your friends or family, eat cheese, or do whatever it is you'd do with the extra time.

      There's plenty of problems with Bittorrent — forcing us to upload as well as download makes it a lot more expensive than just "free" to us who have to pay for uploads. But the time itself is rarely the problem, because it's usually far, far quicker (on the order of months) to pirate via Bittorrent than to obey the law.

      --
      Look out!
  4. Monitoring contributes to the problem by asylumx · · Score: 1

    Seems like monitoring would either cause an additional choke point or add more traffic. Neither option seems like it helps...

    1. Re:Monitoring contributes to the problem by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      OK, your geek credentials are revoked too. Go read up on routers and gateways and promiscuous packet sniffing.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  5. Good technology =/= good business by SilentChris · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In reference to the bandwidth limiting efforts in particular, just because there may be a way to offset technical problems with good technology (e.g. Bittorrent for video/audio) doesn't mean it makes business sense. For an ISP, it may be more economical to simply limit the bandwidth of users (which is easy) than figure out what is really a fairly difficult problem. If:

    What we're making now - Cost to implement bandwidth controls - Loss of customers that get ticked off

    is greater than

    What we're making now - Cost to implement good technology that handles bandwidth more efficiently

    most companies are going to choose the former. It makes more business sense.

    I'm reminded of a passage in "Becoming a Technical Leader" (great book btw - a commenter on Slashdot mentioned it). Anyway, it's about making the transition from techie to management, and analyzing the differences in thought processes. The author tells a story where a company was designing a system, and the requirements were "Make sure it can recover from one error per day" (or something similar). Anyway, the technical people involved with the project thought it would be better if they could get it to "Make sure it can recover from any error, ever, immediately", as they thought it was a more interesting technical problems. Turns out it cost the company something like $4 million, and in the end they had something that a) the customer didn't really need and b) they basically couldn't sell to anyone else. The moral of the story is that just because there are interesting technical problems, doesn't mean that solving them makes good business sense.

    1. Re:Good technology =/= good business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...making the transition from techie to management Oh yeah, I remember hearing something about that. I'm don't recall exactly how high to jump, but you're supposed to land on your head.

      Start your own business. You'll never earn the amount you deserve, if you have a boss.
  6. The oldest solution... by Zil_Daggo · · Score: 0, Redundant

    is still the best. USENET.

  7. So is this... by master5o1 · · Score: 1

    Is this what AT&T stands for: Anti-Technology Technologies... Interesting.

    Only reading the first few lines of TFA (which I suppose is more than some people would). But it seems that this Internet metering stuff is the same as what has always been in NZ -- 5GB monthly bandwidth +$10 for extra 5gb, etc... Not till about 1~2 years ago did we have 1gb limits and shittier overage 'consequence' - go over and pay 1c/MB, or speed capping back to ~56kbps (we were already on 256kbps~2mbps dsl). Then we increased to 5gb/$10 and now have max speeds of ~7mbps (adsl1 max?). Of course, some plans still have the speed throttling overage crap...

    --
    signature is pants
  8. Popstar technologies != great ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    use wireless networks to reduce the traffic on the wired infrastructure Wireless networks are useful when there is no wired infrastructure, but if you have a wired network, it is orders of magnitude faster than the wireless option, especially where congestion is a problem. Using wireless to offload traffic from the wired network is like walking to avoid traffic jams.

    BitTorrent is excellent for rapidly increasing the availability of popular files while automatically balancing the network traffic BitTorrent (and P2P in general) is a kludge. Multicasting is a solution. BitTorrent is an inefficient protocol (from a whole network load point of view.) It bounces the same data around the net in unicasts. The swarm control overhead is bigger than it has to be because with slow upstreams you need more peers for acceptable download speeds.

    It is a case of technology being held back by non-technical reasons, but please look beyond popular technologies when you make an assessment about desirable technologies.
    1. Re:Popstar technologies != great ideas by Wildclaw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      BitTorrent (and P2P in general) is a kludge. Multicasting is a solution. BitTorrent is an inefficient protocol (from a whole network load point of view.) It bounces the same data around the net in unicasts. Only when it comes to incredibly popular files. However most torrents have maybe a few hundred peers or up to maybe a few thousand, spread over a huge part of the earth Multicasting does little good in a such a situation.

      Multicasting is basically about taking you back to the old paradigm where everyone watches the same thing at the same time. (ok, you can save things so people can watch it later, but it is still the old)

      Bittorrent could probably benefit some from pairing peers that are locally close to each other, but that is a tracker problem, not a fundamental flaw with the protocol itself.

      The swarm control overhead is bigger than it has to be because with slow upstreams you need more peers for acceptable download speeds. Swarm control overhead is minimal unless you are running a rogue client. We are talking in the area of a 1% overhead here.

      Btw, getting more peers has nothing to do with getting acceptable download speeds. It only spreads what precious little upload you do have out so that peers will be even less likely to trade chunks with you. Actually, if the extra peers you get are seeds, that isn't true. In that case you do get a little extra speed, although not much.

      The real solution if you are planning to p2p, is to stop looking at those stupid download X mbit/s number when getting an ISP. Those numbers are only there for people who don't know that upload is what matters in 95+% of all cases. (And in the remaining cases, price is)
    2. Re:Popstar technologies != great ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Multicasting helps a lot when many people want the same data. That is exactly the problem which BitTorrent tries to solve. The bottleneck is mostly the upstream of the source and to some extent the backbone, when the same data is sent via multiple unicast streams. Improving the locality of the transmissions only works when the fastest seeds are only in the network neighborhood, which is unlikely due to the slow upstreams of consumer connections. Lack of locality is a much smaller problem with multicast protocols, because the packets are duplicated after the long-haul connections. Instead of sending a packet from A to the backbone, to B, back to the backbone and then to C (like Bittorrent), multicasting sends the packet from A to the backbone, then it is duplicated by a router and sent to B and C. This removes a hop which is both unnecessary and particularly slow (B's upstream).

      Obviously the swarm can only ever have a total download speed which does not exceed the total upload speed of all peers at the same time. The way to increase the download speed for the people who are currently downloading is to have more peers who are only uploading. That makes the swarm bigger than it would have to be with symmetric connections and increases the overhead. Even though the overhead is not gigantic, it is non-negligible, especially on slow upstream connections.

    3. Re:Popstar technologies != great ideas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using wireless to offload traffic from the wired network is like walking to avoid traffic jams. And how is walking not a good alternative? Perhaps this attitude is why the U.S. is the single most obese country in the world, and why gas prices are so high, and why the climate is changing? You had better believe that waking can avoid traffic jams!

      Back to the original question, the problem is not with the existing networks the problem is with company's that are not upholding their part of the bargain. The ISP have been given a "franchise" by local and regional governments all over the U.S. and they are not providing the service they should.

      Complaints the ISP's make about the Internet becoming two crowded are simply moot because of their failure to upgrade infrastructure. The problem is not with the ISP no matter how much you people bitch. Yes they are evil corporate monsters out to make a profit, get use to it, its not new. The problem is with a lack of governmental regulation.

      Since the late 1960's thanks to the right wing movement the U.S. has been slacking off on cooperate regulation. I will not bother with the problems that this deregulation has caused thought out the U.S. economy. The big ISP's need to be regulated. Corporations need to be told where the limits are!!! Limits on corporations are a good thing!! The only people powerful enough to place these limits on the ISP's are the same people who gave them the "franchise" or monopoly in the first place, THE PEOPLE.

      People deserve the government they get. Stand up and stop this. Stop bitching on /. and start bitching to you congressman!
    4. Re:Popstar technologies != great ideas by arotenbe · · Score: 1

      Using wireless to offload traffic from the wired network is like walking to avoid traffic jams. Thanks to the price of gas, people have been driving less and walking more. People will switch technologies whenever the existing ones hit a threshold of impracticality.
      --
      Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
  9. Long-term planning? by Bieeanda · · Score: 1
    Simply stated, it's not in management's best interest to think beyond the next fiscal year or two. Massive rollouts of new technology or widening network backbones are simply not cost-effective in the short run.

    The other side of things is that bandwidth usage isn't a constant-- much like TV, there's a definite 'prime time' when the networks are under heavy load, and laying new cable or provisioning new wireless devices just to cover those periods is not cost-effective.

    There's also the real cost of bandwidth versus the gluttons who insist upon maxing their connections 24/7. Congratulations, guys. You're the reason why they're finally dropping the 'unlimited' charade. You want it unmetered, fresh from the backbone? Try leasing a T1, then get back to us on how cheap we're still getting it.

    1. Re:Long-term planning? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Actually, that is not quite right.

      Widening backbones and massive rollouts are not cost effective in the short run or the long run. Just ask Verizon about FiOS, assuming they will actually tell the truth.

      Smaller rollouts and increasing the backbone in small increments is cost effective and is what is happening. The problem is the usage is increasing faster than the net work can be grown in a cost effective manner.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:Long-term planning? by Entropius · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I read an article by a high-ranking Toyota exec in the New Yorker about how, in contrast to American companies, Japanese companies *do* think ten or twenty years in advance. He made the point that they didn't introduce hybrid cars in order to sell to hippies in ca. 2000; they introduced them because, come 2010 or 2015, gas is going to be expensive enough that lots of people are going to want them... and they wanted a mature product -- both from an engineering and from a brand standpoint -- ready to go.

      Now, in 2008, Priuses (and Corollas and Yarises) are common on the road in my city, while many of the short-sighted US manufacturers are trying to retool from building 18 mpg SUV's.

      The interview mentioned a Japanese business term that has no translation in English; I forget the word, but it meant something like "the faith that building products that people need and selling them for a fair price, long-term, will be profitable, long-term." That might be less true now than it once was, but it's interesting to note that Japanese companies do tend more toward the "Build useful stuff; sell it for cost + profit" model, and American ones toward "Make whatever we can market and sell it for whatever we can convince people to pay".

      The main exception to this that comes to mind immediately is Sony, who can go die in a fire. They've got their hands in lots of markets and are thus successful in that regard, but they don't seem to be market leader in any of them. I follow the camera market fairly closely, and Sony's main market in the US seems to be

      1) people buying point-and-shoot cameras that didn't do their research, and wind up paying >$100 more than the equivalent Canon or Panasonic that performs better;

      2) digital SLR's, which aren't really Sony's; they're rebranded Konica-Minolta stuff who Sony bought out.

      As an example of Sony's failing, their top-end bridge camera still doesn't offer any sort of processing controls: you're stuck with a JPG with one compression setting, one saturation setting, one contrast setting, one (excessive) noise reduction setting, etc. There's no RAW mode. The lens is *very* prone to chromatic aberration.

      Canon and Panasonic's competitors are cheaper, use superior optics, and offer control over the processing; Panasonic's versions have RAW, and Canon's

      But, as a marketing matter, you can't sell stuff like this to Joe Sixpack by saying "Look! Good optics! Controllable processing! RAW mode!", so Sony didn't even bother trying to do this stuff.

  10. Bittorrent is the problem :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Bittorrent is a major part of the problem because it attempts to utalise 100% of the available bandwidth (and the client end). If every user used bittorrent, then the ISPs would have to supply 1:1 bandwidth (instead of overselling as they do at the moment), thus dramaticly forcing the price up for every user.

    1. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ... thus dramaticly forcing the price up for every user. Thats what they say...

      Bittorrent is a major part of the problem because it attempts to utalise 100% of the available bandwidth Bittorrent is a protocol, what you describe is the default configuration of popular Bittorrent clients that can be configured otherwise.
    2. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Dan541 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Consumers using what they paid for!!!!!

      Oh no we can't have that.

      ~Dan

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    3. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Anpheus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How? There isn't enough content to run BitTorrent maxing out my connection 24/7. I'd have to buy a new hard drive every day to do that. Can you propose to me any way of actually utilizing my connection 24/7 with BitTorrent, maintaining a seed ratio and not clogging my hard disks (because I'd need to buy a NAS in short order.)

      I think the result would be significantly lower than 100%. For one thing, 100% of people will never use any one technology. For another, even those who do can't possible saturate their connection 100% of the time unless they're on dialup. I have fifteen megabit cable with a realized throughput of around 13000 kbps to the continental US, and can easily get 1.6-1.7 mega-bytes- per second on downloads. Even at just 1 MB/sec, I have to buy another 80GB hard disk a day to fill this line. Heck, I'd run out of content I'd even want to download.

    4. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

      The simpler solution would be to oversell some more!

    5. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      It is like you see on the other slashdot ISP/internet discussions.

      One person suddenly says, "If you actually use your X mbit/s download, how much do you think it would cost the ISP?". That is of course ridicioulus, because who actually use their download 24/7?

      There are three things that limit most heavy users (exception for compulsive hoarders)

      * Consumption Time - You only have X amount free time.
      * Quality Material - There is only so much good material.
      * Upload - Heavy users often run servers or upload to p2p. Also, even those who don't often use p2p and share back 1:1 ratio as any good netizen.

      Download bandwidth simply never comes into play. As upload is far more limited than download it acts as an upper limit for me, and I guess most heavy p2p users. But even then I don't actually use that limit most months, because there is only so much I have time to actually consume. For pure downloaders I can only guess that they have an even harder time using up bandwidth, as they don't use the upload part.

      On a similar subject. I think that the whole advertising of X mbit/s download is just a big scam. Find me one person who actually makes real use of their 24mbit/s connection. I have 24/1 myself, but that is because it got freely upgraded from 8/1 without me doing anything and I can tell you that the difference for me is extremly minimal.

    6. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by potat0man · · Score: 1

      I have to buy another 80GB hard disk a day to fill this line

      You know hard drives are rewritable? After watching that HD version of %latest_crappy_movie% you don't actually have to keep it on your hard drive for the rest of your life.

    7. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by homer_s · · Score: 1

      Customers having to pay for what they use!!! OMG!!!

    8. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have 24/1 myself, but that is because it got freely upgraded from 8/1 without me doing anything Um, did that make anyone else erect? In Canada, if you are extremely lucky, you can find 10/1 residential connections. Choosing smaller, less-evil ISPs means that you're limited to 5/800 (our incumbent copper provider isn't required to allow the small ISPs access to the full 10 mbit/sec capacities of our pairs). And even in the newest buildings, there seems to be refusal to lay fibre (commercial buildings being the obvious exception). When I hear about Verizon voluntarily putting in FTTH in Buffalo, and then offering FiOS at what is, from my perspective, really reasonable rates, I get jealous.
    9. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they could just use QoS to lower the priority of bittorrent traffic. Some bittorrent clients already do that. The lower priority can increase the latency and even dropped packets but neither matter much to P2P transfers.

      Honoring QoS settings across providers is the rub.

    10. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by grimwell · · Score: 1

      One person suddenly says, "If you actually use your X mbit/s download, how much do you think it would cost the ISP?". That is of course ridicioulus, because who actually use their download 24/7?

      Using a connection 24x7 is easy and filling both the upload&download stream is plenty easy.

      Offer seeds of the popular linux distros and the latest helix iso.
      Put up a Tor router
      Or maybe a game server or irc relay

      Just three examples off the top of my head that could fill a pipe 24x7. :)

      Gimme the bandwidth, I'll use it... gimme the cycles I'll use them.

      --
      If the govt becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites man to become his own law, it invites anarchy
    11. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Hojima · · Score: 1

      Or reducing the ungodly amount of profits they receive. The cost of bandwidth is already a hell of a lot more than it should be, not to mention you don't even get what you pay for. And hosting servers can be a pain in the ass, not to mention more prone to security attacks. If a small segment of a p2p network fails, the whole system remains intact. It's robust and need based, which is exactly what we need. And to top things off, p2p prevents bot activity by making it more difficult to forge IP addresses.

    12. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by rocketPack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ISPs promising what they can actually deliver!!! ZOMG!!11one!11oneoneone!!!!11!111one


      In the corporate world, this shit doesn't fly. You get less for more money, but it's guaranteed. What if ISPs just sold us connections that they could actually deliver, instead of jacking up the numbers to look good?

      This issue can be argued from many angles, and I think it's pointless to throw mud back and forth -- the article asked for CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions, and I see neither of you have provided one. Let's stop rehashing solutions we already know don't work, and get back to the point please.

    13. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Well, for starters, this would mean that ISP's would likely have to dramatically raise prices, maybe more than 10x the current price. The whole reason we have multi-megabit internet for $30 is because they oversell. The other option would be to reduce bandwidth by as much as 10x. (10:1 is the usual overcommit ratio). Then, there would be a lot of capacity going unused, because most people aren't utilizing even 10% of their bandwidth, especially over the long haul.

      This would lead to decreased energy efficiency (thus generating more carbon and increasing greenhouse gasses), higher costs, reduced capacity, etc..

      Now, why is that a good thing?

    14. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by shanen · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the excessive focus on BitTorrent, but this is more of a barter situation. We can both be downloading the same file from various other sources and from each other, and both of us (and the rest of the network) are all benefiting at the same time. The long-distance data traffic is automatically reduced, because the local connections are faster precisely because they are local.

      One case in point is the Ubuntu distributions, where their servers basically go nuts when a major release goes out. If they did this with a BitTorrent default, everyone would be better off.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    15. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by shanen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, the way I imagine it is that there would be a pool of movies available locally, perhaps within a large urban wireless network. When you wanted a new movie, you would (perhaps automatically) delete some older movie (that you hadn't watched in a long time) from your disk, and download it from other people who already had copies of that movie. However, before you deleted your old movies, they would have already been copied somewhere else. (It would also be beneficial to have a regional metric of movie 'value' that was related to scarcity, so rare movies would become less likely to be deleted completely.)

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    16. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not an issue of whether the data goes on a disk or not -- something like bit-torrent, if executed properly, could be used to broadcast movies or television, etc. So there's not necessarily a correlation between bitrate and diskspace.

    17. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Wildclaw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You just gave 3 examples of how to fill your upload. None of those will fill your download. The one coming closest would be the TOR router that would use about as much download as upload (leaving maybe 7/8 of the download unused on an ordinary residential connection). If you are on fiber with equal download/upload, you are the exception and my original post was obviously not directed as such connections.

      My statement stands. You have to try extremly hard to get even close to filling your download on an ordinary residential connection. Even if you go for something like downloading Blueray ISOs, you still have to find a place where you can get them without trading your upload bandwidth for it. There is probably some theoretic case where it is true, but not in practice.

    18. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by bane2571 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Default Configuration" is for all intents and purposes the same as protocol standard for a significant portion of the population.

    19. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      But that's the problem! No-one would ever use what they paid for, since they weren't actually sold the bandwidth that they were told they were sold on paper.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    20. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is only one solution, and it's extremely simple...

      Everyone is first sold a standard cable connection, unless they state specifically that they require otherwise, and can demonstrate or explain why. Other than that, after the first 3 months of a new contract with an ISP, your usage statistics are provided for you to view, and the cable company shows you the list of connections available to you, with the one you would most likely benefit from using being highlighted. Users of 10% would be recommended a lower tarrif, 100% a higher tarrif, with price adjustments accordingly. Up / down stream are mutually independent.

      Annually, this process is repeated. Contracts are 3 months only, but automatically renewing, allowing for changes mid-period if required.

      Everyone gets bandwidth they use, everyone gets the service they need.

      Why doesn't this happen? Because selling 20Mb connections which only work for 30 minutes, then reducing them to 1/8 of the speed for the rest of the day, gets the company more profit for their outlay on infrastructure compared to the "fair" price plan outlined. It's ENTIRELY the ISP's fault that things are so bad, and in my opinion, they can go piss on an electric fence for it.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    21. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Manuel+M · · Score: 1

      ... thus dramaticly forcing the price up for every user. Thats what they say...

      And it is quite true.

      No ISP on this planet has enough available bandwith for all of its customers to use 100% of their nominal bandwidth simultaneously. You are able to use all of yours when you need it only because most customers, most of the time, are not using theirs.

      If everyone starts trying to upload/download at a rate as high as possible in a steady manner, then everyone will be limited to their fair share of the total (real) bandwidth. This way, the same amount of offered, nominal bandwith will require way more infrastructure and be way more expensive.

    22. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      downloading HDTV off my studio (for editing) fills my residential connection pronto, no problemo. I sit on a 100mbps fiber. 24x7 no less.

      were I to download HDTV pr0n off some of the better torrent sites, I'd need another one.

      your statement stands on its head.

    23. Re:Bittorrent is the problem :( by grimwell · · Score: 1

      Aye, those examples would fill the upload side before saturating the download side. Filling the download side is easy, the only limitation is disk space. Drive space is plenty cheap; newegg has a 500GB external drive for $105 and an internal 750GB for $120. Either would be plenty of space to rotate media thru. The average US broadband connection would take a couple of months to fill those with near 24x7 downloading.

      Queue up your downloads and away you go; use nntp if you don't want to bother with "trading upload bandwidth". Plenty of HD video/iso available on nntp... if your nntp provider isn't blocking access to alt.* groups.

      But you are right that the most people aren't going to saturate their pipe. And that is the idea behind giving end nodes/users more bandwidth. With a bigger pipe their network traffic takes less time which translates into using less overall network resources. Gigabit connections would rock and could be "over-sold" way more than 10mbps connections can be. Saturating a gigabit link for any substantial amount of time(>3 hours) is difficult.

      There just isn't any incentive for the cable companies to invest in increasing the last mile bandwidth. In many cases they're the only game in town. Because of the shared nature of broadband via cable the last mile congestion is what is killing the cable ISPs. Backbone bandwidth isn't the problem. I don't remember hearing the dsl based ISPs complaining about P2P traffic.

      So with last mile congestion the cable company has two options, start metering(near zero cost to implement) or increase last mile bandwidth(costly). No brainer and no surprise that they have started metering.

      --
      If the govt becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites man to become his own law, it invites anarchy
  11. Short version by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Short version:

    "I want everyone in the world to behave in a precise (but poorly defined) way to suit my personal sensibilities. Why don't they? Any ideas on how to make it happen?"

    Have you tried saying "please"? Other than that, I have no ideas. Maybe try to help people and solve problems instead of worrying about whether things are done exactly your way.

  12. Constructive solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Kill all the lawyers.

    Sincerely,

    Bill Shakespeare

  13. upsetting the apple card by terryducks · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Follow the money. The ones with (power|control|money) want to stay on top and it's only the ones with better agility that corner the market and then become the top dog. So you're looking for a technical solution for the wrong problem.

    What's the problem ?
    IMHO, it's the "last mile". Legislated limited monopoly controlling access with an interest in keeping that position. so there's a high barrier to access put in place.

    Some of the other problems is what may work in a high density area will probably not work in a low density area. A wireless mesh may work in cities and towns but completely fails in rural. Another issue - making data retrieval a crime. "you're" responsible for someone else's actions and that kills any open public access. Some one has to pay to connect to the backbone.

    If I had a solution that would work in all cases - I'd be rich :p

    Here's a lynchpin that needs to be remove - the last mile monopoly and its bundling with "providers". Here in the Northeast (US) the power line is a separate charge on your power bill than the generation. Break that up. Internet access "line" charge $0.02 per month. ISP charge $x. Anyone should be able to send data over the lines without the big guys restricting access - for the same cost. NO AT&T ISP should be able to send data cheaper than another ISP.

    It may be time for $TOWNs to own the lines, bid repair out to another party and anyone to sign up to an ISP.

    BUT it won't work. See any telcom endevor.

    The Duck

    1. Re:upsetting the apple card by Drogo007 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "It may be time for $TOWNs to own the lines, bid repair out to another party and anyone to sign up to an ISP. "

      UTOPIA (utopianet.org) is an attempt to do exactly that - and you wouldn't believe the dirty tactics Comcast and Qwest have been using to fight it (ok, so you probably WOULD believe the tactics they've been using, but still...)

  14. Money by nova.alpha · · Score: 0

    It's all about money, not user experiences, technology or something else. Things that you have described require serious investments (infrastructure, employees, servers, power, etc) and large companies would not do this unless the absolutely must. Now they don't.

  15. i once invented anti-technology technology... by canipeal · · Score: 3, Funny

    couldn't figure out why the darn thing kept blowing itself up....

  16. not the best terminology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The term "Anti-Technology Technologies" chosen by the poster is too neutral to do justice to the field of metering software. How about Anti-Motherhood Technologies, which provides the slight additional emotional context which would facilitate rational discussion.

  17. What about... by Idbar · · Score: 1

    I'd let them measure, but I was wondering a couple of things:

    Users that don't know much about internet, are those thinking they just look emails, now, what kind of emails? I've seen people (still) sending 40MB files attached to emails.

    A virus, popups and advertisement, download flash animations that people would believe they can't be charged for. How do the companies will deal with the "advertisment" issue, given that most of the advertisement these days is heavy and flash based? Moreover, how do they deal with viruses?

    People normally buy a wireless router and place it there, if it works, works. Now, your neighbors can steal your signal and use internet for whatever they want. Now, I know is customer responsibility, but then, are they planning to track down people in such cases and start legal action against "people using open wireless networks"?

    Just wondering.

    1. Re:What about... by Idbar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      BTW, is Microsoft paying for the constant annoying updates of its OS, as well as Apple for the annoying connections of Quicktime (and iTunes) and Acrobat for their automated downloads too?

    2. Re:What about... by FailedTheTuringTest · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem you've identified is similar to the spam problem: I could not only annoy people, but cost them money by sending them large unsolicited emails.

      A solution for this would be to charge for traffic, but charge the broadcasters, not the consumers. Home users would pay nothing for bytes received, but would be charged for every byte they send -- which is negligible for most home users but would cost prolific file-sharers and people running web sites on their home machines. (As a side effect, this would tend to discourage home file sharing.)

      Large web-based businesses would see their costs go up, and those costs would be passed on to the consumer -- the price of downloading music from iTunes would increase, and Apple would pay their ISP, which would use that money to keep their network up, instead of home users paying the ISP themselves.

    3. Re:What about... by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Nope, when we go to metered service you get to foot the bill for that 200mb service pack.

      Us FreeBSD people that like to use the ports tree to be current will be screwed too.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    4. Re:What about... by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      The problem you've identified is similar to the spam problem: I could not only annoy people, but cost them money by sending them large unsolicited emails. Or the random DoS.
      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    5. Re:What about... by shanen · · Score: 1

      We need to tackle the spam problem as the economic issue it is. We should work to make sure that the spammers can't make any money from their spamming activities. We're evolving in that direction now, but it would have been a lot better if SMTP had included some real economic modeling there...

      Rather a poor joke, but I blame Al Gore, even though I admire and respect him. He kept telling them not to worry about money--he'd worry about that part for them. Okay, so it led to faster progress that way, but they still should have kept (economic) reality in mind.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  18. All right, that does it by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hereby revoke the shanen's geek credentials for failing to understand that single source versus multiple sources doesn't matter if the problem is the total volume.

    The problem is not that on server or site is overloading. The problem is that the provider's network, including things like routers and gateways, have a finite bandwidth and these applications, regardless of source, are using up most of it.

    Ever hear the phrase "You can't put 10lbs of shit in a 5lbs bag"? Ever wonder why they put in new water mains and increase the size of water mains when the build more housing developments? Or why the widen roads with more housing? It is because the total volume has increased.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    1. Re:All right, that does it by SoapBox17 · · Score: 2, Funny

      We all know the internet is a series of tubes, like water pipes. But you aren't thinking outside the box. Instead of building larger water mains, these cities should just use catapults to throw "packets" of water through the air to parts of the city, thus reducing the load on the old "pipe" infrastructure.

    2. Re:All right, that does it by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The applications are not using up most of it. Just their share. If twenty people are sending bits over a line, then the bandwidth can be divided up evenly between the twenty. If two of these people are torrent users downloading 4Gb files and they remain online until peak hours when the number of user jumps to 200 people, then they should only get 0.5% of the total bandwidth. If we kick them offline, then there are still 198 "normal" users on the line and it is still congested at peak hours.

      The problem for most users is the amount of available bandwidth at peak hours. If some guy is sucking up tons of bandwidth at non-peak hours, then he is not hurting anybody. It is not like we can take the unused bandwidth from non-peak hours and use it during peak hours.

      The telecoms have not been able to follow through on their bandwidth promises during peak hours and they have managed to push the blame onto someone else. Now that people have bought into that excuse, they are going to try to make a few extra bucks off of it.

      Quite honestly, I have no problem with people who use more of a service getting charged more, if that is your business model. The phone companies have been charging for long-distance by the minute for years. But if we are going to start charging on a per bit basis, then shouldn't I, as a person who sends fewer bits, get a lower price? Or at least get to carry my bits over to another month? See, they want to treat each customer different based on what benefits them the most, and if it were not for their monopoly positions, they would not be able to get away with this.

    3. Re:All right, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Part of the reason the ISPs don't like torrenting is that the TCP/IP model actually gives then more then their fair share. If I open a youtube page, I open one TCP stream to my ISP. If you start a torrent and connect to 99 other peers, you open 99 streams. The TCP/IP packet scheduling algorithm then allocates you 99% of the available bandwidth, and me only 1% (assuming your peers can saturate the connection).

      The thing that really forces the hand of the ISPs is that currently there is no protocol for splitting up the usage between two such customers to 50-50. Comcast tried to do this via faking reset packets to torrenters (which is illegal, because rather then cut the streams out themselves, which is technically complicated, they forged reset packets to make it look like the other end of your connection sent them) and got sued. A potential solution which would be cheap is to update the TCP/IP protocol, which was not designed for the P2P usage model, and was in fact created in 1982 to alleviate the same bandwidth shortage problem we're encountering right now. If it could be updated to split bandwidth equally between, say, ip addresses rather then streams, then the problem would be largely reduced. The problem is that forcing adoption of a new protocol like that is quite a lot more difficult now then it was back when they came up with TCP/IP.

    4. Re:All right, that does it by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      The only problem with your explanation is that it is wrong. It does not reflect TCP/IP. It more accurately describes line multiplexing.

      If one has 200 users using TCP/IP, each of those users will have a different amount of bandwidth depending on the number of connections they have open.

      The AC that replied to you give a good example.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    5. Re:All right, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Why would anyone want to sign up for an internet service where everyone is guaranteed the lowest common level of active service (eg ~50bps)?

      2) Fixed Costs and Variable Costs occur with pretty much any good or service. Fixed Rate Billing favours those who consume high variable costs. Variable Rate Billing favours those who consume fixed costs. One way or the other, ONE OF YOU will SUBSIDIZE THE OTHER.

    6. Re:All right, that does it by shanen · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I'm going to pretend that you're being humorous rather than a purely non-constructive arse with a tired wit. However, because I don't have much of sense of humor, I'm not going to waste a lot of time on you. Nor am I going to waste any time defending my geek credentials.

      Much of the problem is the so-called last mile. This is precisely where wireless networks could address much of the bandwidth constraints. In conjunction with active local caching and BitTorrent or similar protocols, the entire situation can be changed and improved. Perhaps a concrete example is the best approach for your stiff head. Consider the situation where a lot of network traffic is consumed with video such as the Daily Show. Imagine that you do the initial distribution with BitTorrent, effectively caching the local copies for the relatively brief period of high interest. Most obviously, you greatly reduce long-distance network traffic from the central location, but with the local use of wireless networks, a great deal of the traffic will be completely off the wired network, since it will be distributed within dense urban hubs. They could still have their DRM (several mechanisms already exist)--and even date the files for expiration (though I believe that would be an extension into the area of BitTorrent-like protocols).

      Actually, one of the new technologies we need is variable-power wireless networks (with more range than BlueTooth). By scaling down the transmission power as the node density goes up, you can effectively maintain local bandwidth as a constant. The total power consumption does increase, but that's because you have more nodes, but the main constraint on efficiency is how effectively you can cache the data. Interestingly enough, time-limited video is especially suitable for distributed caching.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    7. Re:All right, that does it by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1
      Wow, you really don't have a clue about how the internet and networking works, do you?

      I love this part:

      the local use of wireless networks, a great deal of the traffic will be completely off the wired network, since it will be distributed within dense urban hubs. Please tell us how this is going to work for a network model that is almost completely wired. Yes, do explain where those wireless networks will be and who will be providing those "dense urban hubs" of wireless connectivity.

      Your dubious suggestion only works in a world where the "last mile" is almost completely wireless and all wireless hubs can act as said distribution points.

      In other words, it requires an entirely new network topology and architecture.
      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    8. Re:All right, that does it by shanen · · Score: 0

      Actually, I work in support of a prominent research lab. I could answer almost all of your questions--but then I'd probably be expected to kill you. Some fraction of that response is a joke. What fraction of your life would you like to wager on it?

      Substantively, I live in a dense urban region. Actually, I live in what is regarded as a suburban part of that region. I am almost always within range of several wireless networks or routers. When I travel to my office, I sometimes monitor the network access points as I travel, and it is very rare that I am completely out of range of a conventional wireless device. These devices are all capable of acting as wireless routers to each other--but they are generally configured not to do so. In addition, there are cellular phone networks that completely cover the region and which could be configured to help support the data communications network (though they are currently priced and marketed in a way that would mostly make that unattractive--though my packets are currently reaching you through a related wireless option that is obviously priced within my means).

      Then again, our apparent disagreement about the reality may be because you live in the States or some other relatively primitive country. Perhaps your wireless connectivity resources are limited, whereas I'm currently residing in an advanced and civilized country, thus giving me a distorted view of reality.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    9. Re:All right, that does it by neonsignal · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'll second that revocation. The problem now is indeed total bandwidth. Although it should be noted that peer-to-peer could help if it were designed to prioritize local links over distant ones (but it isn't now), and if most people are transferring the same stuff (likely with content like commercial video, unlikely with apps like VOIP). Because this isn't quite like water flow: information can be replicated in a distributed way; water can't.

  19. Limit The Power of Corporations by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    I have remarked in the past that I am not sure that any government can really allow the free flow of information.
          And there is little we can do about the nature of government but the second player is big business. We can and should limit the power of corporations and punish them when the work against public interests by doing such things as limiting the flow of the internet. People have rights. Corporations should not enjoy the same rights as people do, For example the directors of a large corporation all have one vote just like the common man. How is it that they are allowed undue influence by hiring professionals to lobby for their interests? Lobbying and bribery and corruption are pretty much identical terms in most cases.

    1. Re: Limit The Power of Corporations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er...why shouldn't they be allowed to hire professionals to lobby for their interests?

      I certainly can.

  20. exchange of information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought the exchange of information over the Internet was supposed to be a good thing? Couldn't we use technology more constructively? For example, if there is too much network traffic for video and radio channels, why don't we offset with the increased use of P2P technologies like BitTorrent?

    You argue for the exchange of gigabyte-sized disk images by the exchange of information?

    Simply exchanging knowledge doesn't clog the tubes.
    1. Re:exchange of information by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that a 1GB .ISO file isn't information?

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    2. Re:exchange of information by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      No it's data.

      It may contain information, but it may not.

  21. Simple reason by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 2, Insightful

    why build more infrastructure to serve customers if you can find new ways to make them pay for the infrastructure you have now.

    1. Re:Simple reason by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Yes, they should just spend the $10-$100 billion of new infrastructure, just to keep some fuckers happy. I can't understand why they wouldn't just do that. I mean, they wouldn't get any more money from us, but still, it is only $10-$100 Billion, who cares?

    2. Re:Simple reason by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Well, you know, they're rich. We deserve to have them spend their money to keep us entertained on the cheap. I think it's in the Constitution or something.

    3. Re:Simple reason by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      With that attitude, we would still be communicating by telegraph. No, pony express.

  22. Bittorrent looks for lots of sources .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bittorrent looks for lots of source, not the closest sources. That is an issue with the current protocol and how it tries to find where to download from. Only recently have people started looking into how to improve the efficiencey of the network usage.

    1. Re:Bittorrent looks for lots of sources .... by Entropius · · Score: 1

      To be fair the Bittorrent devs have had to waste time doing things like protocol encryption and distributed hash tables to protect swarms against traffic monitoring and people who send lawyers after trackers. Resilience (vs. lawyers and campus Network Services departments) has taken priority over efficiency for the devs.

  23. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MAybe it's time for some inteligent journalists and editors at the times.

    "Time Warner would not reveal how many gigabytes an average customer uses, saying only that 95 percent of customers use under 40 gigabytes each in a month.That means that 5 percent of customers use more than 50 percent of the networkâ(TM)s overall capacity, the company said, and many of those people are assumed to be sharing copyrighted video and music files illegally."

    The whole article is about online video taking up all the tubes, then they throw in unsubstantiated claims about piracy being the cause. The more these big media companies try and play the "piracy" card the less i believe that there is a bandwidth apocalypse coming and the more i think they just want the "cash flow from overcharging customers" line on the cash flow statement.

  24. You must be new here by billcopc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you had been paying attention at all, you'd understand the purpose of these "anti-tech techs" as you call them is explicitly to limit progress so the rich old fucktards can continue milking their obsolete business models until they retire or drop dead.

    To many people, progress is a scary, dangerous thing. Money, on the other hand, is a sultry lover that drives their every passion. Us folks on slashdot may prefer cheap plentiful bandwidth over money, but we're a tiny little minority in the grand scheme of things. The average Joe doesn't understand technological evolution, and most certainly does not see where it is all headed... it is far easier for Joe to stay ignorant and pay up.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
    1. Re:You must be new here by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      You're missing the big picture, chief. You (minority of) folks on Slashdot want everyone else to pay for your bandwidth. All you have to do is pony up the cash yourself. There's no justice in making my dad subsidize your desire to pirate every anime ever made.

    2. Re:You must be new here by Omestes · · Score: 1

      You're missing the big picture, chief. You (minority of) folks on Slashdot want everyone else to pay for your bandwidth. All you have to do is pony up the cash yourself. There's no justice in making my dad subsidize your desire to pirate every anime ever made.

      You are wrong, a MAJORITY of folks on /. want to pay for what for what they were told they are paying for. If I'm paying $50/mo for unlimited service, then I expect it to be unlimited service, not limited by what I chose to do with the service I'm paying for, or which content provider pays the service more for priority.

      It really has nothing to do with anime or piracy. Its a far more basic question, should ISPs have to live by their own words, or can they lie their teeth off and justify it with the fallacious "piracy bad" excuse.

      Also, the question here is why are they spending more money going after their customers, than, you know, fixing the infrastructure to handle everyday traffic.

      Its getting to the point where I think corporations are actively against their customers, they'd prefer to have no services whatsoever, and still force us to pay for them.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    3. Re:You must be new here by shanen · · Score: 1

      I have been paying attention, I am not new here, but I was trying to be polite. Also, I believe that in the long-term, you can't win against reality. For example, FM did become popular displaced AM in many applications.

      I actually think the ultimate solutions call for local accounting and a lot of resource sharing. Essentially your computer may request shared resources, but the neighboring computers should 'compare notes' before deciding how much help to give. If you've been playing fair, for example, by helping with the caching and redistribution of their files and email, then they'll give you normal cooperation. If you're a leech, always asking but giving back little, then you'll get low priority and relatively little service. If you're extra generous, for example by providing extra caching storage or a long-distance network connection, then the neighbors (the neighboring computers) will also keep track of that and be beholden to you (as represented by your computer) and they will be obliged to give you extra help in return.

      The technologies themselves and the technical possibilities inherent in those technologies are not going to go away.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    4. Re:You must be new here by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Actually if there were reasonable options available to us, we'd probably pay up. The problem lies in the fact that the big ISPs don't want our business, else they would offer a "hacker" plan with either generous or unlimited caps and greater upload speed, and most importantly no throttling or filtering.

      Seriously, offer me a raw pipe to the net with a /29 and I'll gladly pay $100 for the privilege. That's why I'm constantly shopping around for new ISPs that just might have a clue - sadly there are none in my area.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  25. bullshit by speedtux · · Score: 2, Informative

    I thought the exchange of information over the Internet was supposed to be a good thing?

    It is. And that's why it's a good thing if my neighbor is discouraged from eating up 99% of the bandwidth with hundreds of simultaneous connections while I'm trying to work over ssh, or if he is at least made to pay for the necessary upgrades to our shared wire.

    Why don't we use wireless networks to reduce the traffic on the wired infrastructure?

    Let us know if you come up with something that works. Having suffered through WiFi-based home Internet access for a few months, I certainly don't want to go back. Of course, it kind of caps your bandwidth implicitly.

    For example, BitTorrent is excellent for rapidly increasing the availability of popular files while automatically balancing the network traffic, since the faster and closer connections will automatically wind up being favored.

    P2P and BitTorrent are horrifically wasteful because the same packets keep traversing the same wires. And they seem fast to you for file distribution because they make many connections and grab an unfair share of available bandwidth.

    Instead, we have an increasing trend for anti-technology technologies and twisted narrow economic solutions such as those discussed in the NYTimes article

    First, perhaps you could show us some evidence that there is an "increasing trend".

    Then you might discuss how today compares to, oh, 20 years ago and 10 years ago in terms of maximum throughput, latency, and cost per megabyte.

    As for P2P, combined with standard Internet protocols, it really is a technological disaster, even if it is a social success.

    1. Re:bullshit by Entropius · · Score: 1

      P2P is a technological success in reducing the load on any one point on the network. If you make the assumption that the cost of bandwidth grows nonlinearly, then it's highly useful for e.g. Ubuntu releases.

    2. Re:bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea because the general population of the world really gives a shit about Ubuntu.

      While a neat tool for those using it, Torrents and Swarm P2P in general screw over everyone else on the network because of the way TCP/IP is currently implemented.

    3. Re:bullshit by tylernt · · Score: 1

      it's a good thing if my neighbor is discouraged from eating up 99% of the bandwidth with hundreds of simultaneous connections while I'm trying to work over ssh
      Let him. Just make sure the router and switches prioritize traffic per-user, based on the number of packets they've sent/received in the last hour or 24 hours. You'll neither notice nor care if that other 99% is totally utilized or not used at all because your trickle of SSH packets will always zip to the front of the queue ahead of of your neighbor's torrents.

      If I were an ISP, that's what I would do.
      --
      DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
    4. Re:bullshit by speedtux · · Score: 1

      P2P is a technological success in reducing the load on any one point on the network.

      Reducing relative to what? Heck, USENET is a more efficient distribution mechanism than P2P.

      If you make the assumption that the cost of bandwidth grows nonlinearly,

      Using 'em big words again without knowing what they mean, eh?

    5. Re:bullshit by speedtux · · Score: 1

      Let him. Just make sure the router and switches prioritize traffic per-user, based on the number of packets they've sent/received in the last hour or 24 hours.

      That's not sufficient because the same bottlenecks occur all over the network, so this kind of logic needs to be deployed in all routers. In addition, some people are willing to pay for sustained 50 Mbps, so you need traffic classes. And to make it all work, you need more than the current TCP/IP protocols. So, although you may not be aware of it, you're basically saying that people should do what they're already trying to do.

      But, actually, I think simple volume pricing is, in fact, preferable, because the "just make sure" you propose means that ISPs get much more fine grained control over traffic than they have right now.

    6. Re:bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would actually consider his method superior to yours, because at least I'm getting the 15/15 that I paid for.

      I sincerely don't give a fuck if I'm taxing somebody else's bandwidth, it's the ISP's problem, not mine.

      Selling a 100mbit line and then saying "Oh, you're using a little much" would never fly in the business world. There's no reason why consumers shouldn't take what's been promised to them.

    7. Re:bullshit by speedtux · · Score: 1

      Selling a 100mbit line and then saying "Oh, you're using a little much" would never fly in the business world.

      Not only does it fly, it's the usual way business plans are sold: by connection speed and monthly traffic volume. It's also how the ISPs do business with each other.

    8. Re:bullshit by ClassMyAss · · Score: 1

      P2P is a technological success in reducing the load on any one point on the network.

      Reducing relative to what? Heck, USENET is a more efficient distribution mechanism than P2P.
      I think he meant that P2P reduces the load on the original distributor of the information, which is definitely true as compared to hosting something on a website. It's good for the distributor, bad for everyone else (though faster with a decent swarm). Your counter about Usenet is true as well, Usenet is actually pretty efficient overall since all the data is effectively cached at each ISP (I think - not too certain of the technical details). However, this only works as long as the overall volume of Usenet traffic is low enough for it to be stored nearby, so it's definitely not scalable in the way most P2P solutions are.
  26. Your government should shut this down by GraZZ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The internet providers were given massive tax breaks to improve their networks (fiber to the home and whatnot). Now they not only haven't done that with the money, but the inferior networks they've built instead are reaching capacity.

    Somebody should make your ISPs sleep in the bed they made.

    I also notice that the TFA appears to reference only cable companies. Cable internet shares bandwidth to the endpoint, a pretty bonehead move if a significant number of endpoints are going to be using it. Maybe this is simply the end of that technology's ability to improve. DSL and FTTH vendors could then capitalize and crush those companies, improving internet access for all. What is stopping this from happening (besides laziness)?

    1. Re:Your government should shut this down by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      What is stopping this from happening (besides laziness)? Effective monopolies.
      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    2. Re:Your government should shut this down by magamiako1 · · Score: 1

      At some point bandwidth is shared. Whether it be on the lines or the Central Office. But hey, you keep thinking that you're a crusader against cable companies by trying to prove DSL is "better"!

  27. Bad Math by shadow_slicer · · Score: 1

    I agree with you that equation seems to be the way many companies are deciding their technological investments. If you think about it however, you might notice the problem with that equation:

    It does not take into account the effect improved technology will have on future markets. Successful businesses focus just as much on the future as the present. Sure the present is important, you botch that and whatever your future plans are, they're worthless. On the other hand it is idiotic to ignore the future. Successful companies look for opening markets or weaknesses in their competition and build up to take advantage of them.

    I'm no MBA, but what you really need is a cost benefit analysis and risk analysis. You need to consider the costs of both sides (cost implementing bandwidth controls, cost of implementing technology, cost/benefit of losing/gaining market share, cost of rapid depreciation of added infrastructure), as well as the risks to generate a spectrum of possible futures weighted by their possibility and considering smaller projects that could be implemented to hedge your bets and reduce risk. Then you decide the path that leads to the set of outcomes with the most benefit with a risk that matches that of your company charter.

    1. Re:Bad Math by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem though is that the C/E/I/O's of American Companies rarely give a damn about anything more then next quarters profits. Because of this growing attitude, long term planning in the States is simply not happening and it indicates why our R&D efforts are simply fading into the past. Most of Corporate America's problems can be directly linked/traced to the profit now above all else thinking that's pervading our culture, which goes right back to the I want it Now cultural thinking (consumerism) that's been pushed by our great and fearless marketing leaders.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  28. technology by fermion · · Score: 1
    Technology is the systematic recording of who to do things.

    If I use technology to build a missile, and then use technology to build a laser to shoot it down, is one technology and one anti-technology? No, both are simply the application of the techniques learned and taught.

    Furthermore it would be difficult to know which is the technology and which is the anti technology. If I can't go about my work because kids are downloading pron 24/7 and clogging the pipe, even though the attempt is made to balance the traffic, then is technology to unclog the pipe a good or bad thing? The technology used to unscramble the picture and catch the guy that was abusing little kids, was that good or bad?

    There is a sense of entitlement that is pervasive is our culture, a sense that we somehow have an inherent right to any technology. Not only a right to the technology, but a right to have someone produce at the price we want to pay, in the form that we want, and as soon as we want it. If this isn't possible, the government should subsidize it. We see this with gas. If we don't get waht we want, we whine.

    The problem with this is that not all technology is good. We see this with medical supplies. We see this with cars and SUVs. A bit more time, a bit less greed, a reduction in the sense of entitlement, we might have technology that is helpful and not just cool.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First off, take a history lesson,
                Americans have always had a sense of entitlement, even as a fledgling nation. And as mentioned before, the reason we whine is because we have limited control over the corporation to influence the way in which they produce what we need. It is the fundamental right of a US citizen to complain to our friends, to our relatives, to our congressmen about the current situation.
              Do you recall your mother ever asking for a mini-van? I don't, in fact, our 1975 Beauville was a beast of a vehicle, and got great gas mileage, but because some executive needed to raise the quarterlies they created a new product which was marketed as the greatest thing and now we don't know what is wrong with it because the damn thing doesn't have a base of understanding equal to speed at which it was produced. Reference discussion of Japanese Business Model, long term planning works the best and how is that done? By whining and DIALOG.

  29. "exchange of information" by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    "I thought the exchange of information over the Internet was supposed to be a good thing? "

    Only if that information has been properly sanitized by the government and you pay a licensing fee to consume it.

    Otherwise, its evil.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  30. FM by westlake · · Score: 1
    You may remember how FM radio was delayed for years

    FM radio was delayed for years because the enormous amounts of money being generated by RCA's investment in AM broadcasting was funding the development of the infinitely more disruptive technology of television.

    Then there were the minor setbacks of World War Two and Korea.

    FM doesn't come into its own until the Hi-Fi craze of the mid to late 50's. The LP. Magnetic Tape. Heathkit for the budget-minded hobbyist. H.H. Scott, Marantz and McIntosh for the audiophile.

    1. Re:FM by shanen · · Score: 1

      Your version of the history of FM does not agree with my sources--but I acknowledge that they were little interested in TV per se. My research was more focused on the use of patents to prevent the use of FM technologies because they were satisfied with the existing AM business model.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    2. Re:FM by shanen · · Score: 1

      I try to avoid such ambiguities...

      The "they" who were little interested in TV were the people who were writing about the history of FM radio.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    3. Re:FM by westlake · · Score: 1
      the AM business model.

      Business models tend to evolve for perfectly intelligible reasons.

      The AM station of the Thirties and Forties had a strong local and regional identity and a national network affiliation. That is a fairly good reflection of the much less homogenized American society and culture of the time.

      It shouldn't be surprising to discover that the 40 year run of the Midwest's National Barn Dance originated out of Chicago and WLS - then owned by Sears, Roebuck. "The World's Largest Store."

  31. Re: Japanese Proverb by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 3, Informative


    "The interview mentioned a Japanese business term that has no translation in English; I forget the word, but it meant something like "the faith that building products that people need and selling them for a fair price, long-term, will be profitable, long-term."

    The translation is "Fast Bucks vs. Slow Dimes". America likes This Quarter's Sales. Japan does likes Next Decade's sales.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  32. Duh by aleph · · Score: 1

    The poster makes it sound like the sky is falling. OMG, if you download terrabytes of data/month on your residental account they might *gasp* charge you!

    Australia has had metered plans pretty much since inception. Most are of the "XXgb then shape to 128kbps" variety. There have been companies offering unlimited, but they either go under, or oversell at a horrendous ratio.

    If the cost of bandwidth, as a proportion of operating cost, goes up for the ISP, then something has to break. Either they introduce some type of allocation (metered plans) or the overall quality of service needs to go down (they oversell more). It's not some grand conspiracy, it's *possibly* money grubbing, but it's far more likely just trying to keep on top of a ballooning cost.

    Really, unless you're streaming hdtv 24/7. it's *not* a huge issue. I have 60gb/month in total, and even when I'm leeching a bit I'll be lucky to go through half of that. Often I'll only use a couple of gigs. And I'm still considered a _heavy_ user ffs.

    1. Re:Duh by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``The poster makes it sound like the sky is falling. OMG, if you download terrabytes of data/month on your residental account they might *gasp* charge you!''

      That's fine, but then they have to be upfront about it. If they tell you you get so many bits per second, you should be able to expect to get that many bits per second. If they throttle your connection or send you extra charges if you generate more than some set limit of traffic, without having told you they would do so, you are not getting what you signed up for.

      Of course, the ISPs can get around this by saying something generic like "Fair Use Policy" or "we reserve the right to ..." or "indicated speeds are maximum speeds", etc. But, in that case, what you are really signing up for is something very vague, where you may or may not get the speed that was advertised. I would much prefer if the ISPs told you exactly where the limits are and what happens when you exceed them, but if you want to sign up for a vague unlimited-but-not-really plan, that is your choice.

      What annoys me far more is ISPs that outright block certain traffic (such as TCP port 25) or simply offer bad service (e.g. routing problems a few hours each week). I understand that it costs the ISP money if people generate a lot of traffic, and I would actually be happy to pay on an "amount of traffic" basis, but if I do pay you, I expect you to do your job. I can understand occassional mishaps, but outright refusing to handle traffic or frequent outages are enough to send me looking for alternatives.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  33. Internet bandwidth costs money. by Brett+Glass · · Score: 1

    Many of the posters here, including the one who authored the original article, seem to be forgetting a very simple but important point: bandwidth costs money. A lot of money, in fact, if you're an ISP outside a major city. Many ISPs pay $100 to $300 per megabit per second per month for their bandwidth. Can they afford to give bandwidth hogs unmetered, unrestricted access to it? Of course not! Add to this the fact that TCP/IP is the most inefficient way yet devised to distribute media (a simple analog TV tower is millions of times more spectrally efficient) and that P2P is designed to eat up many times the bandwidth required to transfer the data to the user (because the user's computer becomes a server), and it's no wonder that providers are concerned. Regulations that prohibited ISPs from throttling P2P, or from implementing pricing tiers, would sting the telcos and cable companies (which can cross-subsidize from their other services) but would flat out kill their smaller, independent competitors, leaving a cable/telco duopoly. So, be careful what you wish for. We all like to get a good deal, but if you ask the government to legally mandate that people give you expensive stuff for nothing, do not be surprised when they go broke in a hurry. For more, see my remarks to the FCC at http://www.brettglass.com/FCC/remarks.html.

    1. Re:Internet bandwidth costs money. by tengu1sd · · Score: 1
      >>>Can they afford to give bandwidth hogs unmetered, unrestricted access to it?

      They don't give access. They sell it. Now they're complaining that someone is using the bandwidth that been paid for. Now most providers provision X bandwidth and (Y x X). The problem is users are beginning to ask for the X they were sold.

  34. Uhh. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You may remember how FM radio was delayed for years Does anyone know anything about this delay? This is the first time I have ever heard of any effort to suppress FM. Some citations would be nice.
  35. Wireless to relieve wired network stress? by RudeIota · · Score: 1

    TFA: "Why don't we use wireless networks to reduce the traffic on the wired infrastructure?"

    Well, eventually there *is* going to be a wire. :)

    Making high-bandwidth *wired* infrastructure affordable should be our priority, since cost seems to be the biggest issue with last-mile lines... That's really where most of the traffic issues present themselves... When you have 200 people sharing a single hub.

    --
    Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
  36. More on FM by z00_miak · · Score: 1

    A little background on the delay of introducing FM: Edwin Armstrong was the inventor of FM. He won many distinctions during his life, including the IEEE Medal of Honour, and the AIEE Edison medal. Working for Radio Corporation of America, Armstrong invented frequency modulation radio. RCA wasn't interested (initially because of a paper published by the inventor of single side band modulation, John Carson, stipulating that FM offered no additional benefits to AM), and resisted any changes attempted to move from AM to FM. RCA pushed the FCC to change the band of FM from the 42-50MHz range to what it is now: 88-108MHz. This rendered all of Armstrongs infrastructure obsolete in one fell swoop. Armstrong spent a fortune (all of his fortune) to keep pushing FM because it offers superior perfomance under certain conditions: although with less range than AM, if the amplitude is above a certain level the signal to noise ratio is much better than AM. To add insult to injury, the RCA claimed the invention of FM technology and won a patent. A lawsuit ensued, and the RCA won, leaving Armstrong unable to claim royalties for FM use in the USA (Note that after his death, his wife continued the fight and eventually won against the RCA in 1967). The reluctance to embrace the new technology and the malicious behavior of the RCA resulted in the ruin and eventual suicide of a gifted inventor, and one of the fathers of radio and wireless technologies. It is interesting to note the techology-stifling and patent stealing didn't start with the computer age, there have been previous battles fought. The question is, can this be avoided in the future?

  37. WTF? Nothing is unlimited. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    What is this anti-technology you talk of? I thought the article was related, but no, and you don't even introduce the concept. Use wireless bandwidth? Haven't you noticed wireless is *more* expensive? Bittorrent? What could they share that we all download? A lot of download sites already use nearest-server detection, and many of us already use bittorrent. None of your examples make sense, and you fail to define your concept of anti-technology technology.

    FYI unlimited bandwidth does not mean unlimited bandwidth. Nothing is unlimited. Web hosts and ISPs do it as a marketing tactic, because they can safely assume the average usage will be tolerable. Some users will use more than others, but in the end, the sum is within their limit.

    Now they are trying to solve a problem with over usage. They are exploring both infrastructure improvements and pricing plan strategies.

    It isn't like ISPs are just trying to be a pain in the ass. Think about outages and performance problems with your connection. It could very well be due to too many file sharers in your neighborhood hogging bandwidth.

    1. Re:WTF? Nothing is unlimited. by JD-1027 · · Score: 1

      They don't sell unlimited bandwidth. They sell unlimited USE AT a certain bandwidth. That is what they mean by unlimited. That can be unlimited if they don't oversell, but obviously they do. So, yes, there is such a thing as unlimited... unlimited USE at a certain bandwidth.

    2. Re:WTF? Nothing is unlimited. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

      "Use at" is a given. Bandwidth always implies there is a speed be it 56kbps or 7mbps. Whether explicitly stated or not, the argument is the same. They say unlimited, but they don't have enough. Same difference.

      When someone buys something that explicitly says is unlimited, but in actuality is capped, that is fraud, so these ISPs are in deep if that is what they have been doing. They are being forced to work on solutions never the less, and the article was all about those possible solutions.

      Which brings me back to my first point which is that the article has nothing to do with the title of this slashdot submission.

  38. Here's the rub by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    For years companies like Comcast, Time Warner, et al have been collecting monthly fees for UNLIMITED internet access.

    They could have beefed up their networks because let me explain, they knew what was coming yet they failed to plan for it.

    Oh some did. Why else would Cox keep upping their net speeds? I note they're the one company that's been noticeably quiet about any kind of metered service.

    And has Verizon tipped its hand yet? I know they're pushing hard to sell FiOS in many areas and metered would be death to that service.

  39. Re: Japanese Proverb by shanen · · Score: 1

    No, that is not the translation.

    Actually, I do speak a fair bit of Japanese, but his description did not bring any kotowaza (folk sayings) or yojijukugo (four-character slogans) to mind. He did remind me of kaizen, but his explanation went rather beyond that idea, which is often translated as 'continuous improvement'.

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  40. Users w/ viruses will pay big...for...ADS!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Users who will have abnormally high bills each month, potentially HUGE in fact.

    * Users unknowingly w/ Viruses, Zombie/Bot-net PCs broadcasting or communicating with bot-net or sending spam.

    The potential here is to have huge bills, but the users will then argue with the ISPs
    Call to ISP: "But I *only* emailed my grandson and read the news, I don't understand, now I cannot pay my food bill, I am on a fixed income!!!" :)

    The other obvious stipulation, is that

    ***YOU*** now pay to download all those high end animated/movie .... ADVERTISEMENTS...regardless!!! :)

    Those new ads are often huge or stream video. So they are going to make you all PAY TO WATCH THEIR ADVERTISERS.

    Ahhhh, they have some savvy business folk in the ISP companies now!

  41. Oil wrecks economy, now destroy communications by myspace-cn · · Score: 1

    Now that they have ruined our economy with counterfeit loans, high fuel. (Ya feel it at the store now!) So many of us are making a living providing content, can't have that, they need to steal every fucking last penny from the people.

    So now it's time to fuck up the people's communications.

    Watch TV? You hate fascist propaganda, censorship, and lies? Wanna fight back? Get and publish news alternatively? Ya planning on using TVUplayer and streaming it via capture card/TV out to your "SD" TV to avoid buying a $1000 dollar HDTV?

    Think again...
    Bandwidth caps will stop you from running a website. Or getting news. Or anything else.
    Child porn will be the new "War On Drugs" or "911" to censor, limit, delete, and cut your service. All nicely wrapped in a buried TOS / AUP that say's, "If you say shit we don't like we can cut your websites off."

    There goes the alternative news. First time you say something that blows back on their parent corporation, your fucked.

    Think FIOS and Internet 2 are good?
    Gimme your thumbprint. No more anonymous whistleblowers. You just gave the fascist corruption in government their FINAL FREE PASS. Now they can make you disappear and stop your neighbor from reporting it. Oh and did I mention your nice expensive domain.com will now be subdomain.att.com?

    Yeah that's right, consolidate the fascist corporate media, and roll out expensive HDTV, cap the bandwidth (when we need more actually), spy illegally on every fucking packet and tie your real name to it all.

    Seems like a plan to me. Seems like someone dropped the fucking ball on their oath of office to protect the constitution to me.

    You can argue all the shit you want to say I am wrong. You fucking KNOW I am right. Go to your local fucking supermarket and see if you can get out for less than $50. Motherfuckers! (not you reading this)

    So let me get this straight, our oil is too expensive to survive, we're doing nothing to replace it NOW with alternatives, hydrogen, HHO, Hydrogen On Demand, solar, bio-fuel (FUCK ETHANOL!!!), electric cars, air cars, electric bikes, and we keep outdated laws from actually rolling out new technologies. (a car converted from gas to hydrogen won't pass smog!!!) Meanwhile, things like the elimination of driving to work by using the web/internet are going to be too expensive to use, capped, censored, and TOS/AUP'd to death, and snooped on illegally. Then add more shit like Patriot Act 1, 2, 3, 4 Homegrown Terrorist 1958/1959, then add rigged electronic vote tabulation devices, vote caging, registered voter roll purging (and cry wolf at voter fraud to get REAL ID in place) At the same time keep the fascist corporate media playing Lacy and Scott Peterson and the lost Britney Spears Panties, instead of asking some hard questions, and real fucking journalism. Meanwhile Ben Bernake "stanky bernaky" and the UN-Fed keep running the counterfeit heist, stealing every fucking last penny. Not only does your dollar buy less food, and less bandwidth, it's worth fucking less invisibly, because all those fucking AAA loans are not really AAA, they just a shoebox someone shit in and said it's worth $100 Trillion dollars.

    What's this going to lead to?
    Who has the $100 Trillion dollars and what are their next move against us going to be?
    Where can I get a decent "soup can" for the "soup lines" that are already here?

    You might say, it's time to just turn everything off. I mean isn't that what seems to be happening here anyway?

    Turn off your SD TV.
    Don't buy a HDTV
    Don't go to work -- Strike
    Don't vote for "party" vote for INTEGRITY.
    Fight ALL ELECTRONIC VOTE TABULATION DEVICES
    Fight every fucking stupid ass legislation that comes out every fucking day.
    Turn off your phone. (Oh wait, how are we going to fight legislation if we don't have a phone or internet or TV?)

    Do You Fucking Get it yet?!

    Do ya?

    1. Re:Oil wrecks economy, now destroy communications by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Turn off your SD TV.
      Don't buy a HDTV
      Don't go to work -- strike
      Don't vote for "party" vote for INTEGRITY.
      Fight ALL ELECTRONIC VOTE TABULATION DEVICES
      Fight every fucking stupid ass legislation that comes out every fucking day.
      Turn off your phone.
      The Amish are posting on slashdot and they're angry.
      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  42. They were not sold infinite bandwidth. by Brett+Glass · · Score: 1

    No ISP could afford to do that. Currently, the practice has been to sell "all you can eat, subject to certain rules." These rules say that you can't, for example, run a server or engage in P2P. And these rules make sense. Think about an "all you can eat" buffet. There's virtually always a sign, posted prominently, that says you can't take food out to other people and can't stay all day. They also say that everyone who eats must pay. The rules for bandwidth are analogous. They vary between ISPs, but generally say that you can't do P2P (which amounts to smuggling food out to a thousand of your closest friends) or stream day and night. This sort of rule is fundamental and necessary in any "all you can eat" pricing model. If you won't accept such rules, the only other choice is metered pricing.

  43. Australian experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Down here in Australia we have always had download limits. This is largely because of the limited bandwidth between Australia and the majority of internet sites (in the US). It is arguably a fairer "user pays" system, but overall it makes internet access more expensive because of the infrastructure the ISPs need to count the bytes used by each account.

    Here P2P technologies are seen as a problem, not a solution, because they have encouraged the downloading of high volume content such as music and videos. Some ISPs actually limit P2P bandwidth to prevent the heavy downloaders choking off bandwidth to the lighter users.

  44. Advertisers can pay then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So does this all mean that I can rebill my usage to advertisers who play video automatically on sites like major sports links or news links?? I mean, I never want that video to automatically play, but it does and it increases my bill each time... just like telemarketers calling my cell phone.

  45. Greed is the problem by VernonNemitz · · Score: 1

    While to some extent we hopefully recognize some value in human creativity, such that copyrights and other IP deserve to be respected for an appropriate LIMITED time, excess greed is trying to create "Artificial Scarcity". ALWAYS a bad thing.

  46. Authority's Guns: a dead user claims no rights. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Robert Mugabe, "extraordinary rendition", Burma, the chopped for parts Falun Gong, in Communist China,

    Death is the Ultimate Technology: with it, and the ability to enforce it, all the rest of rights come home to roost, too.

    No individual can keep rights, in the ultimate game: government corporations, and private corporations, cannot help but own them all.