Slashdot Mirror
Russian Invasion of Georgia Might Jeopardize Space Station
mknewman writes "Sen. Bill Nelson, one of NASA's biggest proponents on the Hill, is openly questioning how Russia's military intervention in Georgia will affect our access to the space station after the Shuttle is retired in 2010. Currently, NASA is able to use Soyuz vehicles for crew access and lifeboat operations thanks to an exemption from the Iran Non-Proliferation Act. The exemption expires in 2011, only one year after the Shuttle is due to head to the museums."
The summary makes absolutely no sense.
Can anyone shed light on what is going on?
I can't believe that a slight pertubation to the timeline of the hopeless ISS is what really troubles nerds when two countries are at war. Seriously..!
----
Go canucks, habs, and sens!
These problems occur, when a country prouding itself to be the greatest, democratic nation on earth, breaks its own rules(like : not intruding on other nations Sovereignty), which lead to other nations breaking those same rules, ... This empire is on its way out i fear, and the results won't be pretty.
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
US manned spaceflight will end in 2010, when the Shuttle is retired. There won't be any follow-on for at least a decade. The US can't afford it any more.
NASA might be able to sell their interest in the ISS to China or Russia.
Russia has the greatest weapon of our time: oil. They have more than the Saudis. Nobody is going to piss them off and disrupt their supply.
if only there was a terror threat from space. NASA would be up to their eyeballs in no-need-to-account-for cash.
Let us all be correct in the terminology here. It is not Russian Invasion, but Russian Retaliation. It was Georgia, with support from USA and Israel, who first initiated the attack against Russian peace keepers. In my opinion, it is dangerous to have the US as an enemy but fatal to have as a friend. I encourage everybody to read the articles at WSWS for a good analysis.
I still have my doubts as to whether the shuttle replacement will pan out.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
"Yeah, US foreign policy has been pretty much spineless when dealing with Russia since Reagans day... somehow since then we aren't allowed to piss them off."
We didn't risk much for the trivial players back then either. Some game pieces are expendable, while others have more value.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
I doubt this will really matter in the end. Especially long term. The Russians will likely leave by the end of the week as soon as the Georgian military is dismantled. In the end, Georgia started this, and really, what effect did the crushing of the Prague spring, the Hungarian uprising of 56 etc really have on relations between the west and Russia?
And as others have pointed out, the Georgians started it with an area of effect attack on a city populated by ethnic Russians. If there is trouble with the ISS, it will be for other reasons.
what would America do if some asshole country rockets barracks of our peacekeepers in the middle of the night for no reason after 10+ years of mostly peace? we'd go get some revenge and we'd teach a lesson. which is all Russia did. Good for them.
Yeah, US foreign policy has been pretty much spineless when dealing with Russia since Reagans day...
I know it's fashionable to rail against the US, but in truth the European countries have shared this shortcoming due to their addiction to Russian oil.
Economic realities drive foreign policy for most countries in the world. We only manage to stand up in righteous indignation when we've got nothing really to lose. It's why we (eventually) were willing to isolate Apartheid South Africa, but never took any measures of consequence against China for {choose any one of many offenses}.
#DeleteChrome
is it any wonder? We should have been working on the next gen replacement for the shuttle since 1990 at least. We've fucked up and now it's all going tits up.
Just like every other war?
All that's needed is some almost plausible BS to go in.
Both sides are guilty here, no doubt.
But Russia made it worse by their actions.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Georgia killed 6 people... Russia has killed thousands of Georgians.
Watching much Fox lately or just pulling numbers out of your ass?
The ethnic cleansing thing was one of the most amusing statements ever to come from Russia. Ethnic cleansing? Whatever. Georgia responded to separatists who once again launched terrorist attacks on Georgia. Russia, still pouting about Kossovo and unhappy to see a working democracy, decided to take the opportunity to show (1) Putin is still running things and (2) about all he knows how to do is drop bombs.
I love my sig.
now please explain to me how georgia could kill only 6 people by shelling a sleeping capital city at midnight?
also of note is the fact, that georgia borders chechnya where lots of russian troops are waiting for any action.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
If the United States government supports Georgia, we should rescind our Declaration of Independence and rejoin the British Empire.
Let's look at a similar situation in history. A renegade province of Mexico rebelled and kicked the Mexican government out. A strong ally to the North took them in and waged war with the Mexican military, killing many and eventually taking much more land. I'm talking about Texas.
If we want to back Georgia on this one, we should give Texas back to Mexico.
The South Ossetians want to be an independent country. The voted overwhelmingly to do so in 2006. The Russians respect that. The Georgians and their allies (read: us) do not.
The right of a people to choose their leadership should not be overlooked here.
And, what are we going to do? The US military is tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan, and even if they weren't, getting to Georgia isn't going to be easy. The Euros don't have the balls to do anything meaningful to their largest energy supplier. So, what do you suggest? WWIII?
This is a larger part of a regional conflict that includes Chechnia. There are layers of ethnic hatred in the region that go back a long way and I find it hard to believe anyone's side of the story. This is a tragedy, but at this point the best thing to do is just to get the shooting to stop.
The right of a people to choose their leadership should not be overlooked here.
Is that why the Russians are busy trying to undermine Saakashvili?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Yeah, I'm sure glad we had the foresight to arm and fund the muhajadin in Afghanistan. I mean, that went great and NEVER AFFECTED US EVER AGAIN...
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
sounds like bullshit show elections to me.
Why don't you ask somebody from Poland, the Baltic States, Finland or Ukraine what they think of recent Russian actions?
Why don't you ask someone from Balkans what they think about US actions in regards of bombing sovereign nation, taking part of their country and allowing it to declare independence?
Jeopardize Space Station, would be an equally valid title. I'm sure the Russians have suspicions that the US was ultimately behind the Georgian bombardment and invasion of South Ossetia.
Watching the media reporting on this has been fascinating. If Russia had been the Western Ally rather than Georgia, the media would have been focusing on the Georgian bombardment and invasion of South Ossetia and all the casualties it caused. People killed in Russian air-strikes would get a mention in words, but certainly not pictures. When the media report on official enemies, the gloves come off. The BBC's Newsnight program called Russian announcements Orwellian Newspeak. I can't recall the BBC ever calling US or UK announcements Orwellian Newspeak, no matter how propagandistic and dubious they sound. Instead the media is happy to band around phrases like "Winning Hearts and Minds" without question.
For anyone interesting in the way the media works, watch the documentary "Manufacturing Consent" (based on the book by Herman and Chomsky). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wksCW3ooJ5A
The Russians are very closely aligned with the rebels in South Ossetia (the Russians sign most of their paychecks). They used the rebels to provoke Georgia into attacking (which they did because their leader thought the US would back them up).
So Georgia attacks first, and Russia gets to attack back while looking like the good guys.
Meanwhile, the rest of the world is not willing to risk too much to defend Georgia. Although Europe is more willing to do so than the US because of the pipeline going through Georgia.
The situation is very complex, with lots of ego on both sides.
No! In a "real" democracy, the guy with 49% beats the guy 51%.
sounds like bullshit show elections to me.
More or less BS sounding show elections than the guy winning with 49%....?
M0571y H@rml355.
Georgia struck first. They were hoping to take control of Ossetia by force. And Ossetia only provoked Georgia by claiming to be independent for the last 20 years, Ossetia did not spark this confrontation. The world community is at fault for not supporting Ossetia as a sovereign nation. Ossetia even had democratic elections to affirm that everyone there does not want to part of Georgia. Make no mistake Georgia attacked Ossetia because the US still recognizes Ossetia as part of Georgia which would make this attack in the eyes of the US, a civil war. The problem with Georgia's plan is that Russia accepts Ossetia as a separate country and the US wasn't going to be able to stop Russia from doing what we would have done in such a situation. If you don't like that logic, think about Israel. They are a country we accept to exist, but Palestine does not. So Palestinians attack it, and we help to stop those attacks. The only thing that has hurt our relationship with Russia was John McCain getting involved with the current president's business and claiming Russia was the invader based on the incorrect news headlines. And to top it off Joe Lieberman, who is Jewish, sides with John McCain. It boggles my mind that a man from a country constantly attacked because it's enemies don't recognize Israel's right to exist could do a 180 and not recognize Ossetia's right to exist. McCain basically made a speech off the incorrect information in the press and Joe Lieberman is a hypocrite trying to be vice president.
I'd love to know where you get your intelligence.
Oh you're taking Russia's word that they were only responding to Georgian aggression. Great thinking there buddy.
Russia will occupy these two provinces and suddenly there will be new breakaway regions adjacent to these. Russia will rinse and repeat, while the west begin a process of appeasement or hollow diplomatic actions and Russia will eventually forcefully integrate Georgia back into the fold.
Yeah our commitment to democracy goes only so far.
So the Finns, Estonians, and Poles were engaged in ethic cleansing and genocide when Stalin decided to try and conquer them?
I don't pretend to have all the answers for the Balkans but I think trying to compare Bosnia and Kosovo with Finland and the Baltic States is a bit of a stretch. Do you even remember what the Serbs were up to back in those days? The images of people in camps starving to death?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
We all signed on to the same game: that is a representative democracy, the candidates know the rules and they know they go for electoral votes and not popular votes. Bush was the last person I wanted to see in office, but it's stupid to say it was invalid because you can't use the correct metric.
There were other issues that occurred in the US elections that make them suspect, but that does not excuse irregularities (especially much larger ones) in other people's elections.
----------
Just your ordinary BOFH
http://killertux.org
Most of the world recognizes Israel. Most of the world does not recognize South Ossetia. This isn't just the US throwing its weight around. Russia is trying to force things its way. Russia could choose to recognize the People's Republic of Texas if it wanted to but that wouldn't change the fact that Texas remains part of the US. And I know all the Russians living in South Ossetia do not want it to be part of Georgia, but there is something odd about Russian Citizens getting to say what Georgia should do with its territory.
I love my sig.
Consistant foreign policy would be nice, yes.
But as long as you're trying to put things in first-person perspective, how would you expect the U.S. to respond if one or more states were to suddenly declare independence?
"Ok, no worries about the federal money and infrastructure build-up from which you've benefitted. We'll just relocate any strategic military assets we might have placed within your borders." I doubt it. More likely, a civil war.
Any "democratic" government probably ought to have a specific procedure for secession. Absent that, any attempt to break away from ones parent country has always been, and will always be, a morally grey area. While the U.S. certainly has benefited from, and engaged in the role of being, foreign aid to one side in a civil war, that doesn't make it right in the general case.
I'm not convinced either side (Georgia or Russia) is taking the "high road". I also don't claim to have the historical -- or even current event -- perspective to weigh all the factors in the rights-and-wrongs of a border dispute. Given the one-sided nature of most of the posts here, I'd wager most of the posters are in that same ill-informed boat.
My two cents: By default, I assume national sovereignty. If a population wants to secede, I generally consider it an internal affair; and just because the local population expresses a wish to be separate, that doesn't automatically make it so from a sound international standpoint.
But were there human rights violations, war crimes, etc. going on between Georgia and Southern Ossetia? That would certainly weaken any sovereignty claims... Lacking those things, what were peacekeepers doing on Georgian soil in the first place? Did Georgia accept their presence, or were they essentially an occupying force?
If I put my troops in harms way, can I really claim the right to retalliate when they get hurt? Can Russia draw a strategic connection between bombing near the Geogian capital (something like 30 miles out of their way) and protecting those in Southern Ossetia?
Simply too many questions to justify all the "Country X is good and Country Y is evil" rhetoric around here.
Keep in mind that Russia attacked on two fronts: one in South Ossetia, and one in Abkhazia, and it took place on land, on air, at sea, and electronically. From a tactical standpoint, the electronic warfare campaign probably didn't do much, Georgia isn't heavily wired like other countries. What is unsettling is that, according to a New York Times piece, the information attacks began weeks before the actual hostilities. It's clear that the Russians were just waiting for an excuse to go into Georgia.
Did Georgia behave irresponsibly? Sure. But Russia's response- launching a second front in Abkhazia, driving deep into Georgia and cutting the country in half by occupying Gori, bombing the airport in Tblisi, and hitting civilian targets (intentionally or not)- is disproportionate. It would be as if you challenged someone to a fistfight and then he beat you with a baseball bat so badly you ended up in the hospital, and kept beating you after you asked for mercy. And it's one thing when a tiny nation of 30 million does something irresponsible, but Russia is a major economic and military power. What's reallydisturbing about Russia's behavior in Georgia is that it isn't an exception, it's part of a pattern. Look at what we've seen recently: poisoning of a dissident with radioactive Polonium, the media put under strict government control, political dissent largely crushed, the poisoning of an opposition candidate in the Ukraine with dioxin, and now a major military offensive into Georgia. Of course, the way that the Bush Administration has behaved in recent years- suspending the rule of law, 'regime change', domestic spying, and torture- means that America isn't in much of a position to lecture other countries on how to behave. On the other hand, America's international policy is almost guaranteed to improve in November, whereas there is no indication that Putin is surrendering his grasp on power anytime soon.
As always, oil.
The big BTC (Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan) pipeline is a way to get oil to the West without dealing with Russians, and the pipeline is 13% owned by US interests.
Plus, of course, Russians are the traditional enemy, which the US is against, no matter what. Remember how we protested so heavily against the invasion in Afghanistan, and supported the poor oppressed Taliban in their noble fight against the godless commies? No? People tend to forget...
> Did Georgia behave irresponsibly?
So murdering 2,000 innocent people is just "behaving irresponsibly"? Tsk, tsk, what a naughty Georgian president! But what happens when 2,700 Americans are murdered? America goes apeshit, invades countries half way around the world, and causes 10's perhaps 100's of thousands of deaths.
After preventing thousands more murders, Russia attacked the Georgian army to teach them a lesson. They should have kept going until they got the Georgian president.
"Proportionate" wars yield stalemate by definition. Disproportionate wars are how wars are won!
What Georgia is really all about is Putin sending a signal to all the states bordering Russia that they could be next, and to also test the resolve of NATO in a public way that is safe for Russia.
It's obvious that the Russian invasion of Georgia was pre-planned and that they baited Georgia into doing what they do. Attacks of the scale the Russians have done take time to organize, and the Russian response was immediate. How else, one might ask, do the Russians suddenly appear not even a day after the crisis, with several hundred tanks and thousands of men, without first having had a plan.
Putin baited. Georgia foolishly took the bait and provided Putin an excuse to smash Georgia in such a way as to intimidate those NATO states that are actually bordering Russia, and those states that might join NATO (like the Ukraine).
Anyone thinking that this is about Russia defending its own people is a fool. I thought we'd learned from the Sudetenland that this sort of an argument is crap. This is an effort by Russia to bully the states on its borders, as they have been doing now for the last few years with things like turning off the gas, turning on the gas, issuing passports in bulk to people in one's own country...it's classic Soviet Era stuff.
AS far as the Space Station goes, well, the Shuttle is just going to have to keep flying until Ares is ready. That's it. The only reason the Shuttle is being grounded is because the Congress mandated panel did what Congress told it to do, and, the Congress can easily change those parameters to allow for new geopolitical realities. The shuttle will fly, it won't be safe, but, Alan Shephard rode a fricking ICBM during the cold war "built by the lowest bidder", and that's what space shuttles do.
What happens is this: USA continues shuttle, kicks the Russians out, probably keeps the Russian modules, and the NATO countries have a nice little space station.
This is my sig.
If you do not do what the international community wishes.... We will have to write you a very stern letter telling you how unhappy we are!
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Why don't you ask someone from Balkans what they think about US actions in regards of bombing sovereign nation, taking part of their country and allowing it to declare independence?
Your quick retort is off base there, because it implies that only Serbians who are against those things live in the Balkans. Other people from the region generally saw those acts either as salvation or as interventions necessary to get things fixed.
Indeed, many a Croatian, Bosniak or Albanian will tell you that the US and others should have intervened in the Yugoslav wars much before and with much more force, than they did.
Foreign intervention by great powers(tm) is a historical fact of life, anyway, and they are hardly ever universally right or universally wrong.
Its simply amazing that given the history of soviet behavior in the post ww2 period that any of you dopes believe in anything the Russians say especially the Russian shills here.
So they did invade a few countries and overthrew a few democratically elected governments, but so what? I mean, which country wouldn't do the exactly same thing if given a chance?
Life is not fair, but in this world you either fuck with people, or they fuck with you.
You should stop bitching and join the club of all the other weak countries shafted by the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the French Empire, the Russian Empire, and the United States (who invaded some 30+ countries since 1946)...
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
Reuters video of Georgian troops firing Grad rockets at Tskhinvali: http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=88607&videoChannel=1
See Israel vs Palestine, West Bank and Gaza settlements.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.