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Lessig On McCain's Technology Platform

Agthorr writes "Lawrence Lessig has created a video analyzing John McCain's recently released technology platform (available here). Lessig's video touches on broadband penetration, competition, and network neutrality." Note that while Lessig has come out as a supporter of Barack Obama, this video is not from the Obama campaign.

156 comments

  1. To sum it up... by Jack9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    McCain's has the foresight and intents (and motivations like "faith") of GWB. Not that Obama is a saviour, but let's try to minimize the severe damage the internet will suffer under either candidate (in America).

    --

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
    Everyone knows me.
    1. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Actually, I support Max for President. He is the only President that I know of that has actually killed the Internet.

    2. Re:To sum it up... by ScentCone · · Score: 1, Insightful

      motivations like "faith"

      Are you even paying attention? Obama makes more, and more often, of his belief in the supernatural. His churchliness is a far more visible part of his persona (which, obviously, also got him in a lot of hot water when people actually started to pay attention to where, and with whom, he'd been going for 20 years to assert his abiding faith in the supernatural and the people who crazily preach about it). So, which is worse, they guy who people say is old, slow, from another era and believes it, or the guy that's presented by the media as a brilliant, towering intellect... who has such a flawed grip on reality that he still believes it? Or worse... who is smart enough to not believe it, but who is sleazy enough to say he does in order to get votes?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    3. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Anyone who expects an openly non-religious person to be 1) nominated by either major political party, and then 2) elected president, is at least as crazy as as any church-goer. It's an empirical fact that belief in the supernatural is necessary to be elected to the office.

    4. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The difference is that Obama's faith isn't the rigid taking-orders-from-god kind, but rather the kind that's supportive of using logic and rationality to decide issues. He's on record supporting atheists and denying that religion is a requirement for morality. http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/

    5. Re:To sum it up... by ScentCone · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The difference is that Obama's faith isn't the rigid taking-orders-from-god kind, but rather the kind that's supportive of using logic and rationality to decide issues

      Right. Which makes him even worse. Anyone who simultaneously supports logic and reason while spending two decades hanging out (until being outed by YouTube) in a church that spouts some of the most unreasonable and illogical stuff imagineable isn't just a hypocrite, he's either simply not as smart as he's being sold to be by his handlers, or he's a complete charlatan. What exactly is it he's supposed to have faith in if he can just mutate it as needed to avoid it being consistent, and can switch it off if he has to take a vacation from magic when logic is important? That's my point: he's either a fool, or he's lying.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    6. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For many of those 20 years he wasn't physically there but that doesn't matter. He belonged to a church where he felt accepted and could do good for the community. It is possible to believe in a higher power without it being GOD and it ruling your every decision. Obama seems to me someone that is spiritual and has beliefs in a higher power but that isn't necessarily the Christian God. I suppose he could have made better choices about who to make friends with, but I would bet he thought he could look past some of Wrights shortcomings in order to be effective in bringing help to that Chicago community. I don't go to church and I am unsure of a higher being, more agnostic than anything really. Put all church and religion aside and I bet we could find 15 other things that EVERY politician is a hypocrite about. We are all hypocrites and that is the truth.

      I am probably not going to vote for Obama and I will never vote for McCain. Obama lost my vote when he showed me how he felt about the constitution. I am giving him time to redeem himself. He hasn't yet.

    7. Re:To sum it up... by ScentCone · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      It is possible to believe in a higher power without it being GOD and it ruling your every decision.

      So, he still believes in magic, but only like... friendly elves and whatnot?

      Obama seems to me someone that is spiritual and has beliefs in a higher power but that isn't necessarily the Christian God

      So... you've got a lot of respect for him, even though you're pretty sure he's lying about what he says is the foundation of his entire world view? He says that his moral framework comes from his belief in the Christian God as spelled out in the bible. He's the one who actually says, over and over again, how that for him, it's all about that one big ol', all-powerful, redeeming God in which one must believe to go to heaven, etc. You're saying that it's possible to believe in magic, just not in God, per se... but obviously you DO think that Obama really does believe in what he says he does, right? So, he actually DOES think that God rules the universe, because he says that he believes in the Christian God. HE says that, not me. Or, are you saying that he doesn't really believe that, and he's just lying so that he can be part of a church so that he can help people, because, gosh, there's not other way to organize a civic group or anything like that. So which is it? He's a hook-line-and-sinker really believes what he says he does guy with an all-powerful invisible friend (something about which you seem to be uncomfortable), or he's lying (which you seem to think is more likely, and is something about which you seem to be fine). Interesting.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    8. Re:To sum it up... by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, which is worse, they guy who people say is old, slow, from another era and believes it, or the guy that's presented by the media as a brilliant, towering intellect... who has such a flawed grip on reality that he still believes it?

      It doesn't matter if McCain has a better grip on reality than Obama, because it doesn't change the fact that everything* about his platform is wrong!

      (*with perhaps the sole exception being his support for the 2nd Amendment -- if only he felt that strongly about the rest of the Bill of Rights!)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    9. Re:To sum it up... by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      motivations like "faith"

      Try watching the video then try again. ...on with my opinion
      I do state that I think Obama is the lesser of 2 evils. In America, politics equates to corruption. Obama is a SENATOR. No matter who is vying for the presidency or who arrives, they are all beholden to the same monetary and political interests. Based on what I have seen, read, and heard, I have my own faith. I believe that Obama is not a techno-retard and that's more than I can say for McCain. A liberal socialist over a conservative elitist is TERRIBAD for the economy, I concede. I don't think that's bad for the world. Finally! bankrupt the US and break it up. I can't believe how good it makes me feel, just to imagine that day might come.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    10. Re:To sum it up... by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 1

      So, since McCain has dropped his "Maverick" title and started to appease the religious right, he's suddenly God's candidate? Wow. You guys are fucking retarded if you believe the shit he's trying to pull.

    11. Re:To sum it up... by Tenek · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Well, 50 years ago it was an empirical fact that being white was necessary to be elected to the office.

      If you're an optimist, this means that all those cold hard facts can eventually change, and everyone will be free! Yay!

      If you're a pessimist, this means that Americans are just as bigoted as they were back then, only now it's the gays and atheists destroying America instead of blacks and Jews. Progress?

    12. Re:To sum it up... by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Obama seems to me someone that is spiritual and has beliefs in a higher power but that isn't necessarily the Christian God.

      To believe that requires that you ignore the countless times Obama has expressed a devout belief in Christ, the Bible, and so forth.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    13. Re:To sum it up... by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      hanging out (until being outed by YouTube) in a church that spouts some of the most unreasonable and illogical stuff imagineable

      It's only unreasonable or illogical for 1) those who are grossly ignorant of history and 2) white trash. I'd ask you which one you are, but it's pretty obvious you're 3) all of the above.

    14. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's a scentcone of bullshit. He's just tearing down Obama so McCain doesn't seem as bad. No need to argue for your candidates positions if you can demotivate your opponents...

      Ron Paul 2008! Or failing that, Obama.

    15. Re:To sum it up... by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      but let's try to minimize the severe damage the internet will suffer under either candidate

      And what harm is Obama going to bring to the Internet, exactly?

    16. Re:To sum it up... by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Apathy. I was intentionally being specific when I said "within America". I believe he recognizes that he does not know what's best. This situation rarely leads to making dramatic inroads. He's got enough problems when he hits the ground.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    17. Re:To sum it up... by rock_vbrg · · Score: 1, Informative

      WOW, what a bigoted anti-religious thing to say. Just because you believe that there is something out there larger than yourself does not mean you turn your brain off. Not everyone who believes in God is a racist, a bigot or a homophobe; it just seems those are the ones that get the most press coverage.

      Everyone has filters that they see the world through. Which set are you using?

      Besides the last poll I saw ~80% of the adult population in the US believed in God (not necessarily Jesus but a creator) so why do you find it surprising that the candidates would pander to a group that large?

    18. Re:To sum it up... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The op is under the mistaken idea that barrack is a closet Muslim. He hasn't ignored anything, just taking in all of the accusations.

    19. Re:To sum it up... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I would love to meet the idiots who impressed you enough to develop your world view. This is simply amazing that you would be able to make those generalizations on either candidate despite verifiable evidence that exists outside someone's imagination. It gets even further ridiculous when you attempt to rationalize what you think is "bad" for the economy.

      Tell me, can you name one accomplishment Obama has made besides miraculously getting elected to office unopposed? I'm betting that your simply not paying attention to the candidates.

    20. Re:To sum it up... by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You guys

      Huh? I'm not registered with either party. I already know where McCain's coming from, religiosity-wise. He really hasn't changed in any way - though it would be nice if he woke up one morning and realized it was silly.

      I'm paying more attention to how interesting it is to watch people on the left try to reconcile their mental image of Obama as a cerebral, rational, pillar of tolerance and understanding (and promoter of science and education) even as he loudly proclaims that he's an adherent to all-powerful magic invisible friends and whatnot. That's what's fun to watch.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    21. Re:To sum it up... by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just because you believe that there is something out there larger than yourself does not mean you turn your brain off

      Just the part that processes things like the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny.

      the last poll I saw ~80% of the adult population in the US believed in God (not necessarily Jesus but a creator) so why do you find it surprising that the candidates would pander to a group that large?

      No, the real question is, why would someone who calls himself the Candidate For Change, and who is proclaimed by all of his media talking point specialists as a staggering intellect, a man of science and reason and "progressive" thinking (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), not use the opportunity of having the public spotlight to actually see about making it less fashionable to proclaim belief in the supernatural? How many of those 80% do you suppose just say that because of peer pressure? I expect it's a huge share of them. Obama says he doesn't like the "old" ways of doing things... but at the same time he says he gets his entire ethical framework from a frequently mis-translated collection of 2000-year-old (and more recently edited, obviously) mythology that includes descriptions of an all-powerful, all-loving God that - oddly - still to this day likes to kill innocent children with lukemia and bolts of lighting.

      Everyone has filters that they see the world through. Which set are you using?

      Here's an intereting notion: how about seeing it as it actually is, rather than filtering it? You could even consider seeing your candidates that way.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    22. Re:To sum it up... by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      I would love to meet the idiots who impressed you enough to develop your world view.

      Some people call it "time". I appreciate your viewpoint, based on optimism and unicorns. Nowhere have I stated Obama is accomplished or "good" but since you're just gonna troll and you're on my lawn, save your breath.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    23. Re:To sum it up... by Life+Liberty+Freedom · · Score: 1

      Not really sure how someone's 1st choice for president can be Ron Paul, and their 2nd choice be Obama.

      Not saying McCain should be their 2nd choice either. Personally, I wish there was a "none of the above" option and we get some better options.

    24. Re:To sum it up... by ultranova · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, the real question is, why would someone who calls himself the Candidate For Change, and who is proclaimed by all of his media talking point specialists as a staggering intellect, a man of science and reason and "progressive" thinking (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), not use the opportunity of having the public spotlight to actually see about making it less fashionable to proclaim belief in the supernatural?

      Perhaps because even intelligent people don't necessarily agree about things, especially when talking about the existence or nature of supernatural, which is by definition impossible to verify either way with science. It is possible to be intelligent and a man of science and still believe in supernatural; "intelligent" doesn't mean "thinks like I do".

      A more cynical part of me suggests that he's using that intellect to predict the reactions to such proclamation, and has decided it would likely cost him more support than it'd gain.

      How many of those 80% do you suppose just say that because of peer pressure? I expect it's a huge share of them.

      You know, "I think they lied" is not a very convincing way of rebutting statistical data you don't like. Some might even suggest you're not being very scientific, and not looking at reality as it is, but rather through a filter ;).

      Everyone has filters that they see the world through. Which set are you using?

      Here's an intereting notion: how about seeing it as it actually is, rather than filtering it? You could even consider seeing your candidates that way.

      Sadly, that is impossible. At it's most fundamental known level the world is just a list of properties (spin, place, velocity, etc.) of various particles. Extracting any kind of useful data out of that requires interpreting them; for example, your ability to see is based on your brain interpreting the chemical changes in your retina as reflecting the energy of photons hitting it, while your ability to read this text is your brain interpreting certain patterns of black and white as equivalent to speech.

      Basically, there is no objective reality beyond that fundamental level; everything besides the list of properties of basic particles is just you interpreting that list with a filter that gives you information you consider relevant. A photon in a particular state is in that state objectively, but a dead rabbit might be a curiosity, insignificant, or a meal, depending on who you ask; if it's been dead long enough, some might even argue that it isn't rabbit but dust.

      This gets even worse with political candidates, because the very same candidate, who's message is understood and character and abilities judged in the exactly same way by two people, might be considered entirely differently by them, depending on the filter of what they consider desirable.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    25. Re:To sum it up... by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Despite what many people here think, science and religion are not mutually exclusive.

    26. Re:To sum it up... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You actually said that Obama is better the McCain. You said so by saying he was the "lessor of two evils". Not as bad is the same as better then. My question about what has he accomplished goes to the very fact that you simply don't know enough about him to make that claim. You are solidly convince of something on blind faith that either someone else was right or what you can imagine base on generalizations is correct. This wasn't a troll, it was a call for you to actually become informed about the positions you are taking. BTW, it doesn't matter if you can't name one of his accomplishments, 90% or better of people who view Obama as the better candidate can't either or they have something wrong.

      If you were to spend as much time investigating Obama as you have McCain, you would probably be very scared of Obama. And I say this with all honesty. He hasn't won an election that has had an opponent in, he walked all over a well established and respected democratic Illinois state congress women who attempted to help him into politics in order to get his start, and yet he is being propelled by some magical force as the answer to everyone's woes. When he isn't reading from a teleprompter, he seems like he is a bumbling idiot in some cases much worse then Bush himself. He has backed tracked on almost all of his positions while claiming to be standing on all sides of the spectrum. In short, he is a used car salesman with a well rehearsed line that someone sends out to get the suckers. Or at least that's my opinion of him.

    27. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My how far we've fallen.

      If memory serves me correctly, many were overly worried about JFK because of how religious he was.

    28. Re:To sum it up... by castle · · Score: 1

      An interesting furthering to this 80% popular belief in the "oh so horrible" supernatural.

      Many scientists apparently (really good scientists who are peer-reviewed and everything, not necessarily the creation science/ID folks) tend to more often than not believe in a creator of some sort.

      Essentially I believe the polling went somewhere close to 50% Believing in Something and the other 50% Believing in Nothing, with probable gradation in which exact belief or degree of absolute dogmatic conviction in a belief a plurality of beliefs or non-belief they espoused individually.

      Here's an Aside: Why is it dogmatic reactionary A-Theists get so shrill when someone might be open to the possibility of, or find comfort in the practice of a belief [which incidentally is between them and the belief, not them and the critic(Any Given Dogmatic Reactionary Athiest)].)

      Do they just not want to get along? I suppose lacking faith in anything else, the redeeming biochemical cocktail provided by having irrational grudges are a great substitute for the wellspring of endorphins likely present during religious experiences.

    29. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is it dogmatic reactionary A-Theists get so shrill when...

      My guess is that, much like their faithful counterparts, these are the "dogmatic reactionary" variety, and not the average mind-your-own-business lot?

    30. Re:To sum it up... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      which incidentally is between them and the belief, not them and the critic

      But that's the problem. It's not just between them. The superstitious, magic-believing types tend to also wind up on school boards, or get involved in discussing whether or not God would want a particular sort of faith-based civic service organization to get or use funding in a certain way, blah blah blah. You can have a brain dead family member on life support in a hospital, with literally no chance of ever functioning again because their brain is actually (measurably, observably) mush, and the people who "get comfort" from their invisible omniscient friends can do things like file injunctions that end up bankrupting your family and keeping that bricked meat computer respirating at several thousand dollars a day. They'd rather see you suffer the prolonged anguish of seeing your former relative's body breath for an indefinite period going into the future than come to terms with the fact that: no brain, no more beloved family member.

      Magical thinking people end up making legal and policy decisions that impact other people's lives, often in cruel and dumbing-down ways. Whatever comfort they get in thinking that "they" will still exist even when their synapses stop firing is a steep price to pay for making the rest of the world swallow the built-in irrationality that must come along for the ride with that sort of nonsense.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    31. Re:To sum it up... by malkon10t · · Score: 1

      So, he still believes in magic, but only like... friendly elves and whatnot?

      Why does it have to be elves? Maybe he believes in The Force? Does it really make a difference?

      He's the one who actually says, over and over again, how that for him, it's all about that one big ol', all-powerful, redeeming God in which one must believe to go to heaven, etc.

      What's your point? DO you want him to say "I am agnostic and your centuries of belief in one god and the teaching of his church is all a farce. We dont know and will never know because it is not up to us to know" We are all part of this hypocrisy. He is trying to get use reason and intellect to portray his faith as he believes in it. What if he did attend a church? Does that make him a bad person? No McCain thinks that following Osama Bin Laden to the gates of "hell" is what will win him an election. Does he really believe in it? Interesting. The question is... Do you want another die hard inflexible retard in the WH or would you prefer someone who is flexible and forward thinking? Which of them would you consider a bull headed idiot?

    32. Re:To sum it up... by malkon10t · · Score: 1

      So voting against a war that is currently killing young American men and sapping the economy of billions of dollars monthly AS opposed to claiming that the only thing that will help the economy is offshore drilling by someone who was able to graduate from a higher institution of learning only by virtue of his parents' status sound like major investigative results?

      What have you been able to come up with in Obama's past that will overshadow the fallacy of the current administration which McCain DOES support?

    33. Re:To sum it up... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Which of them would you consider a bull headed idiot?

      The one with situational ethics, no firm principles, and who is willing to say anything to anyone in order to get elected. Obama is a bull headed idiot about winning the election, at the expense of having an ethical backbone. I won't complain about someone who - ethics intact - changes his mind or position on a policy that is intersecting with new information or externalities. But Obama's whole claim to fame (since he has zero experience, otherwise) is that he was a "constitutional scholar" and able to identify other people (such as supreme court justices) as inferior thinkers. So, gee, with all of that blazing white-hot intellect and a career that at least spent some time teaching other people about constitutional philosophy, you'd think he could handle questions about basic ethical and philosophical issues without tripping all over himself. Which he cannot. It's why his handlers have him avoiding anything other than puff-piece interviews and questions from the press, and it's why he ends up all over the map on issues like the recent 2nd amendment ruling, or describing the abortion issue as being "above my pay grade."

      To a certain extent, I don't care WHAT his positions are on some things. But I do care that he's willing to swap them around at will based on the audience, and that he does so on issues that go far beyond what can be explained by his acquisition of some new information. His world view is a jumble, and that makes him weak as a prospective executive.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    34. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see GWB as "taking-orders-from-god" so much as making decisions and then saying they were "orders-from-God."

      He wraps himself in God and the soldiers, and says that if you don't support his decisions then you don't support the troops, and might just be against God.

    35. Re:To sum it up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To a certain extent, I don't care WHAT his positions are on some things. But I do care that he's willing to swap them around at will based on the audience, and that he does so on issues that go far beyond what can be explained by his acquisition of some new information.

      There isn't a candidate out there that hasn't been doing just that. If that's your criteria, it's just dumb. Both candidates have been shown to be full of shit on some issues. It's just a matter of deciding who's shit stinks slightly less. That's a matter of opinion, but don't pretend that you're making your choice based on some objective criteria.

    36. Re:To sum it up... by iamacat · · Score: 1

      mythology that includes descriptions of an all-powerful, all-loving God that - oddly - still to this day likes to kill innocent children with lukemia and bolts of lighting.

      While I have not really taken a position about this mythology, don't you think we share some responsibility for prolonging suffering of innocent children with medical science when recovery is long past plausible?

    37. Re:To sum it up... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      So voting against a war that is currently killing young American men and sapping the economy of billions of dollars monthly AS opposed to claiming that the only thing that will help the economy is offshore drilling by someone who was able to graduate from a higher institution of learning only by virtue of his parents' status sound like major investigative results?

      Wow.. How ill informed you are. First, the war is already happening. It doesn't matter what I think about if it was needed or how it was started or of it is bad to have our brave Americans in harms way, we scrambled some eggs and if we don't do something with the scrambled eggs, we are going to get some really raunchy stuff thrown back at us. To put that in other terms, if we didn't succeed after starting the war, I believe it would eventually cost us more then a relatively few young Americans lives and billions of dollars. It would end up costing a lot more lives and eventually a world war costing far more money.

      Second, McCain's off shore drilling stand isn't his only position on helping the economy. If you actually believe that then you need to open your eyes and perhaps even look at his own website for information that your current sources are keeping you stupid about. And yes, I say Stupid with confidence because this information goes beyond ignorant when it is so easy to verify by simply looking at someone's stated position that is openly offered by the horses mouth itself. You might want to check out "group stupidity" when you get time.

      Now if your unsure why off shore drilling is so important, it is because use and demand grows faster then any efficiency gains due to population growth of a country. Population growth isn't linear, it is exponential which means that a 10% increase in efficiency can be over shadowed by a 3% population growth in as little as 3 years. But it is actually much worse then that. Lets say every 100 people use 100 units of energy a year. A 10% gain in efficiency would drop that to 90 units per 100 or .9 units per person (100-(100*.10))/100. But lets suppose that it takes 3 years to get the efficiency increase. (obviously, if we could do it right now, we wold be doing it already)

      Now, in three years, a 3% increase in population over 3 years means that instead of 100 people, you now have 109.27 or so people, almost 10% more. (I know you can't have parts of people but I'm purposely attempting to keep the numbers low for simplicity and we will accept it for this). Now, during the next 3 years, each of the original 100 persons plus the extra 9.27 people saved .03 units of energy or .1 units over 3 years. This is of course assuming that everything became more efficient all at onces and replaced all of the inefficient devices at the same time (which isn't very efficient or practical). Now remember, we started with 100 units of energy and now need 109.27 units before any savings is realized.

      So in the course of the next 3 years after the first year of savings, the population increases by the same 3%, in the year after, we now have 112.5 people needing .9 units of energy all at once for a total of 101.25 units. This is more then the original 100 units and is based on some unrealistic and costly demands BTW. In the second year after the savings, we will have a total of 115.9 people needing .9 units of energy for a total of 104.31 units of energy (again, more) In the third year after the year of the savings, we now have 119.3 people using a total of 107.37 units of energy.

      Now, in case you can't put 2 and 2 together, and I encourage you to check my numbers, if it takes 3 years to realize a 10% savings through energy efficiency, because of population growth (which is about 3% a year in the US), we end up using 7.3% more energy just 4 years after the savings. In other words, all that we save due to increased efficiency is part of the amount of increased demand. And we wou

    38. Re:To sum it up... by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      I suppose... the guy who's least likely to continue breaking the law and pushing us into dangerous economic and military conflicts?

      Speaking as a former republican (although always a social liberal), I really wish there was a reasonable, either one is ok, let's all be reasonable people sort of choice presented us. But what we have is Obama, who is not ideal, and McCain, who is a continuation of the evil vampires from space that currently run the republican party. So by all means, don't vote Obama if your conscience won't let you. But don't vote for McCain, because you will be demonstrably hurting your country. And I'm not sure four more years of Bushite mismanagement can be sustained.

    39. Re:To sum it up... by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      especially when talking about the existence or nature of supernatural, which is by definition impossible to verify either way with science

      Exactly. So you are stuck with blindly accepting something someone told you without any way to verify it. Blind belief in fantastic stories that no one can confirm, test, recreate, etc. Add to that all the contradictions in the ideology as well as the blatant factual errors in the scriptures.

      Your are basically saying "you can't verify it either way, so you should just blindly accept it".

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    40. Re:To sum it up... by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      Many scientists apparently (really good scientists who are peer-reviewed and everything, not necessarily the creation science/ID folks) tend to more often than not believe in a creator of some sort.

      Really? A quick Google search seems to contradict that, but maybe you have some sources to point to?

      Not that it really matters. Just because someone who is really smart believes something blindly doesn't mean that he is right. Really smart people can be really stupid in many ways. Just look at how geeks who excel at computers are often less than comfortable interacting with other people. Should you have a geek with social phobia tell you how to interact with other people because he's extremely good at programming?

      Why is it dogmatic reactionary A-Theists get so shrill when someone might be open to the possibility of, or find comfort in the practice of a belief

      Well first of all, there are no dogmas in atheism. Atheism is not an ideology, but describes the lack of faith in God. Atheism has no rules, no holy books, scriptures, characters, powers, or anything like that. There are no dogmas to accept.

      But anyway, I don't know what atheists you are referring to. Atheists can get rather peeved with religious people who try to force their religion down their throats, though.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    41. Re:To sum it up... by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      science and religion are not mutually exclusive

      I would have to disagree.

      Science: Verifiable, testable, fact-based, etc.

      Religion: Blind belief in empty claims that cannot be tested or verified or even falsified.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    42. Re:To sum it up... by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      McCain is not religious?

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
    43. Re:To sum it up... by castle · · Score: 1

      Got me on that reference, I read an article that had a survey (a smaller sample size than the one you mention definitely and more recent) but in this case I probably should have said Many, a significant number, not most. Additionally belief doesn't have to be blind, it is faith that does (as the saying goes) which throws out whether someone is stupid/smart no matter their particular specializations of knowledge. Then it comes down to which group of scientists you sample, heavy hitters at the razors edge of scientific accomplishment or the entire mass of scientifically degreed folks. *shrug*

      There is dogma in belief, Athiests believe in the absence of a thing, and are convinced of it I argue just as dogmatically and pigheadedly at times as the most ardent fundamentalist billy boy.

      It has been my experience that Athiests are often overbearingly abrasive and HIGHLY dogmatic in their adherence to whatever Science of the Day (peer reviewed by the proper licensed authorities of course) as a sort of substitute for the belief in say a Old guy Hurling Thunderbolts or Jewish guy on a Stick.

      I approach religion as a 'to each their own' sort of thing, Athiests grate on me because of their knee-jerk (dogmatic?) consignment to absurdity of the very possibility of the soul, at times claiming it is merely because there is no evidence, but immediately discounting as rubbish and assassinating the character of those who would differ in a manner unbecoming of someone who respected another human being.

      To your last comment, yes, it's a consistent (and valuable) reaction to christian fundamentalists in the US, but when it gets out of hand, religion becomes a thought-crime, and I don't like that at all. See Dawkins and his Neocon tendencies for an example of a (very dogmatic) athiest making you all look like Evil Bastards. But I respect ones right to whatever belief they believe.

      And furthermore athiesm is not an ideology? I suppose you have a point there it's not one per-se, but it's a good umbrella for positivism, humanism, naturalism and secularism which are.

    44. Re:To sum it up... by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      Additionally belief doesn't have to be blind, it is faith that does

      Religious belief/faith, whatever you call it, is blind by definition.

      There is dogma in belief, Athiests believe in the absence of a thing, and are convinced of it I argue just as dogmatically and pigheadedly at times as the most ardent fundamentalist billy boy.

      Far from it. Even the often demonized Richard Dawkins says that he isn't 100% sure that God doesn't exist. On a scale from 1 to 7 where 1 is absolute belief in God, and 7 is absolute belief that God does not exist, he considers himself as being 6. He can't rule out the existence of God, but he finds it to be extremely improbable.

      And again, atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of belief in God. There are no dogmas in atheism.

      I approach religion as a 'to each their own' sort of thing, Athiests grate on me because of their knee-jerk (dogmatic?) consignment to absurdity of the very possibility of the soul

      What atheists? Where? When? Every single one of them? What did you do prior to their reaction? Did you tell them how they are dogmatic neocons?

      religion becomes a thought-crime

      When? Says who? Not anyone I've ever seen.

      See Dawkins and his Neocon tendencies for an example of a (very dogmatic) athiest making you all look like Evil Bastards.

      There's that Dawkins demonization which always turns out to have no roots what so ever in reality, but is rather a result of lies being spread about him.

      What neocon tendencies, specifically? He has specifically stated that he does in no way wish to prevent people from believing whatever they want to believe. And it is a lie, often repeated by religious nuts, that he wants to take away kids from religious parents and things like that.

      How is he "dogmatic"? What are his dogmas? Just because he doesn't believe in God, he's "dogmatic"? He has specifically stated that he cannot be 100% sure there is no God, as I mentioned above.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
  2. I can't watch this by iminplaya · · Score: 1

    Is there a transcript?

    --
    What?
    1. Re:I can't watch this by kesuki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      sadly those who have banned flash on their pcs can't access content that could have easily been done with 2-5 small images and a text based blog entry instead of making a 2 minute shockwave flash video and wasting everyone's bandwidth.

    2. Re:I can't watch this by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      It has nothing to do with banning FLASH.

      It does have all to do with many 56k dialup users around. Including us.

      Thank your phone company for the 5 billion $ they took from us for "broadband".

      --
    3. Re:I can't watch this by LEMONedIScream · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Oooh, 64-bit Linux just isn't supported by Flash.

      Not that anyone uses Linux anyway, let alone 64 bits!

    4. Re:I can't watch this by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      No, it plays fine. I just can't sit through it. It's driving me nuts.

      --
      What?
    5. Re:I can't watch this by grahamd0 · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Great message. Terrible video.

      Just write it in your blog, Larry. Slashdot will read it anyway. I can't tell people who might vote for McCain, "Here, watch this terrible video!"

    6. Re:I can't watch this by mariushm · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here's the video in mp4 format, for those who won't enable the Flash plugin for a few minutes:

      ftp://definethis.org/video.mp4

      It's 57.3 MB (60,102,443 bytes), straight from Google's servers.

      For those complaining about dial up, here's only the sound:

      ftp://definethis.org/sound.mp3 (22050, mono, 3.82 MB (4,016,064 bytes))

      Links are ftp to allow for bandwidth limit in case download goes overboard.

    7. Re:I can't watch this by bsDaemon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How many people who might vote for mccain either know or care who Lessig is anyway? I won't be voting for McCain, and I'm only marginally aware myself.

    8. Re:I can't watch this by grahamd0 · · Score: 1

      How many people who might vote for mccain either know or care who Lessig is anyway? I won't be voting for McCain, and I'm only marginally aware myself.

      I would posit that it doesn't matter if his point is valid and well articulated.

    9. Re:I can't watch this by Jorophose · · Score: 1

      Not that anyone uses a 64bit OS anyway, let alone Vista!

      Fixed. It's more accurate now.

    10. Re:I can't watch this by Woundweavr · · Score: 1

      Your argument would be stronger if not knowing or caring who someone was didn't effect whether you listened to an argument, or trusted it as a source of information and/or analysis.

    11. Re:I can't watch this by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      My argument is just as strong as the argument I was responding to, which claims that the quality of the media affects whether or not someone is going to listen to an argument -- ie, judging the book by its cover. However, using Lessig in the first place is an appeal to authority, a rhetorical technique which often works best if the authority is recognized as such, so the quality of the video is secondary to the subject (not the topic) of the video.

    12. Re:I can't watch this by Iceykitsune · · Score: 0

      FUCK YOU! I can't use ftp where I am because our IT dept. are assholes.

      --
      GENERATION 24: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
    13. Re:I can't watch this by grahamd0 · · Score: 1

      Oh, and my friends and family won't trust me as viable reference?

    14. Re:I can't watch this by piojo · · Score: 1

      Thank you :)

      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    15. Re:I can't watch this by grahamd0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My argument is just as strong as the argument I was responding to, which claims that the quality of the media affects whether or not someone is going to listen to an argument -- ie, judging the book by its cover.

      Except that it does, and people do.

      Can you honestly tell me that you've never seen anyone get modded up for a well written post that didn't really say anything? Or conversely someone with a valid point get modded down because they write like an idiot?

      That video added nothing to the point Lessig was trying to make, and in fact, actively detracted from it. I agree with every word he said and I thought that video was terrible. It was 16 minutes of poor PowerPoint emulation, bad parodies of Apple marketing, the implication that AT&T is *not* a villainous entity in the same vein as Comcast, and blatant political pandering (all of that Iraq war commentary was a distraction from his main point). Did you actually watch the video or do you just like arguing?

      If I'm judging a book by it's cover, then you're too busy trying to see the forest to realize that the trees suck.

    16. Re:I can't watch this by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      No, I didn't even watch the video 'cause that's too much like reading the article.

    17. Re:I can't watch this by grahamd0 · · Score: 1

      Ha! Brilliant! You, sir, are a worthy foe.

    18. Re:I can't watch this by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      ***Agreed. Great message. Terrible video.***

      Linux (Konqueror anyway) has once again saved me apparently. Got the audio, but no video. But sometimes I like ... want ... the damn pictures. I get the message that voting for McCain means more of the same. Can't say that I want that. Will voting for Obama somehow lead me toward that great technological wonderland where technology actually works right all the time?

      In any case, let me point out that McCain was the force behind the #$@(*&( Children's Internet Protection Act -- which pretty much forced tens of thousands of schools to install expensive, ineffective, idiosyncratic, and often buggy content filters. I'm sure he meant well. But he still screwed up. With better staff, and more administrative skills on his part, CIPA might not have happened or have been less of a mess. The guy -- like Bush -- is not a manager. We should limit his opportunities to make future mistakes by not putting him in charge of the US ... or anything else.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    19. Re:I can't watch this by BASICman · · Score: 1

      ...mine don't trust me as a viable reference :-(

      "Oh, the Liberals brainwashed him in college. That's what they do." Sure. forget I'm a bloody software engineer.

      --
      An enlightenment painter would paint a grand house on a lawn; A romantic painter would paint it on fire.
    20. Re:I can't watch this by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Your right, I will be voting for McCain but not because I support him and I know who Lessig is. But it is precisely because I know who he is that his words wouldn't influence my vote.

    21. Re:I can't watch this by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Sounds like your surrounded by intelligent people.

    22. Re:I can't watch this by BASICman · · Score: 1

      Meh; they're family (extended, thank God).

      --
      An enlightenment painter would paint a grand house on a lawn; A romantic painter would paint it on fire.
  3. To save you 16 minutes, by Mumei+no+koshinuke · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Lessig says the only two issues at stake are broadband penetration and net neutrality. McCain will try to solve the broadband penetration "problem" by providing subsidies to the cable and telecom monopolies, and he will oppose net neutrality.

    Obviously Lessig would prefer to see more competition and open networks.

    Personally, I think the broadband penetration number ("our rank has fallen to #22") is a bit of a red herring because the US is far less densely populated than most other countries and thus perfect broadband penetration is not feasible. And while I'm all for net neutrality, that issue alone is not going to determine who I vote for.

    Despite the current lack of regulation I think I get a fairly fast, unrestricted Internet connection at a fairly low price. I think that as long as there are at least two providers available in any locality the market will force reasonable prices and net neutrality.

    1. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      And I'm sure if he'd thought you'd listen to more than 16 minutes, he'd have made a more complex argument.

    2. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personally, I think the broadband penetration number ("our rank has fallen to #22") is a bit of a red herring because the US is far less densely populated than most other countries and thus perfect broadband penetration is not feasible.

      Lower population density may mean that universal broadband access isn't as profitable for commercial vendors as it might be otherwise (ditto with access to electricity, running water, telephone service, mail, etc.), but it certainly does not mean it is not feasible.

    3. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Foofoobar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is a good argument for selling the 'last mile' to consumers. Some companies are looking into selling the last mile to consumers or smaller communities that way they do not have to pay for the cost. This also would make a much better argument for net neutrality in consumers and communities owned the last mile.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    4. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by kriss · · Score: 1

      In a way true, but you'd be stuck with one of two scenarios really: Quick and expensive (nice last-mile solution) or Not-so-quick and inexpensive (cheap last-mile solution). Or quick-and-exposed-to-competition-hopefully-meaning-inexpensive (municipality owned access network w. nice last-mile solution), but they seem to get sued left and right for some reason, which is a pity.

    5. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by BitterOldGUy · · Score: 1

      And I'm sure if he'd thought you'd listen to more than 16 minutes, he'd have made a more complex argument.

      I see: Longer arguments == more intelligent. Got you.

      Penetration - that's all I want to hear.

      Lessig! Who the hell does he think he is making a clear and concise argument in only 16 minutes! Geeze! He could have made a completely obfuscated, overly complex, and important sounding argument that would last an hour! Or more! But I hear you. Long arguments are for intelligent and boring people but more important! If you can say it in 16 minutes, you can say it in in 160 minutes - and it'll be more intelligent because it's longer.

    6. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by thanatos_x · · Score: 4, Informative

      Allow me to elaborate on the broadband issue. If you look at average and top speeds available in NYC, LA, Chicago, or any other major city, you'll find that they are 2-5 times slower than the average available to the whole country of Japan, South Korea, France and Sweeden.

      The fastest speeds you can currently get from Verizon (via FiOS) are 50/20 (down/up), for which you'll pay $145 a month. This is below the average of what you'd get in the above countries, and I'm almost certain it costs 25-33% of the above rate.

      A more reasonable 20/20 or 20/5 costs 70 or 57. The bottom line is that IF you can get the service, you'll pay 3-6 times the cost per mbps as you would in another country. One could argue that markup is to pay for further penetration, but eh... we're still well behind in internet speeds even in our metro areas.

      To my knowledge Verizon offers the fastest service plans available for residential access, and I'm guessing their $/mbps is competitive as well. I'm glad that they're at least offering a 20/20 or a 50/20 package, but don't kid yourself - we're still pretty far behind in our coverage.

      --
      I am not an expert. If I am misled in something, please correct me.
    7. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      I have a 20/5 business FiOS account. I have yet to visit any server (other than speed testing sites) that can saturate my connnection. I can reach 1+ Mbyte/sec download speeds with well-populated torrents, but that's still far below my 20 Mbit download speed. I could upgrade to higher speeds, but what difference would it actually make in practice?

    8. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The trouble with the "less densely populated" argument is that even in wealthy and thickly settled areas our broadband is expensive and crap. It would, I agree, be wholly unrealistic to whine about how rural Idaho has internet access that would make Tokyo cry. Obviously so. The fact that even in major metropolitan areas, we face an effective duopoly; both options fairly lousy, is not at all unrealistic to be upset about.

    9. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      It also has to do with the media he is using.

      One of the things you're supposed to do with speeches---and that was most definitely a speech---is to keep the point of the speech simple. Another thing you're supposed to do is to be very redundant with the point you're trying to make: say that you're going to say it, say it, and say that you said it. He did both of these things.

    10. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by natedubbya · · Score: 2, Interesting

      by providing subsidies to the cable and telecom monopolies

      Not quite. What McCain proposes is tax cuts to these areas to spur development. Lessig, of course, calls them subsidies. A subsidy is very different from a tax cut. Of course, one shouldn't be surprised that Lessig makes this confusion as his political leanings tend to assume that tax money originates and belongs to the government, not the originating source of the income. The word subsidy also makes it sound like McCain wants to fill evil telecoms' pockets with undeserved cash.

      If you don't see the distinction ... imagine calling a decrease in your personal income tax a subsidy :)

    11. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by mariushm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have cable 20/2 Internet connection, and I'm in Romania (a small country in Europe with neighbors Hungary and Bulgaria for people with less knowledge of geography).

      Inside the country, I can max the connection anytime, full 20mbps. Outside the country, the speeds are on average 13-14mbps.

      This is the result of heavy competition between two ISP that bought almost all the small ISP companies in the country.

      Also, no bandwidth caps and it costs about 20 dollars. Bundled with cable TV (576p, about 55 channels) the total cost is 40$.

      For an additional 10$ a month, the company can give me a set top box that takes digital tv out of the same cable (still 576p but digital up to the set top box so crystal clear. HD is still in testing in the country).

      About two years ago, for the same price I would have received 2mbps download, 256kbps upload.

      So what I'm trying to say is that it's quite possible to saturate your connection, if I can for example by downloading two linux iso's from two different servers in my country.

      It's your provider that doesn't invest enough to have the backbone capable of handling the speeds.

    12. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by fringd · · Score: 1

      Despite the current lack of regulation I think I get a fairly fast, unrestricted Internet connection at a fairly low price. I think that as long as there are at least two providers available in any locality the market will force reasonable prices and net neutrality.

      I'm not so sure. I think that as long as it is (nearly) impossible for a new company to come along and compete (in broadband), we will be paying a premium for sub-par service. Why are you willing to let things get so close to monopoly?

      I'm all for a free market, but the tendency of a free market towards monopoly must be quashed.

    13. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by gregbot9000 · · Score: 1

      Japan, South Korea, France and Sweeden.
      Seriously? those countries are either technology obsessed or quasi-socialist. as another pointed out:
      "Lower population density may mean that universal broadband access isn't as profitable for commercial vendors as it might be otherwise (ditto with access to electricity, running water, telephone service, mail, etc.), but it certainly does not mean it is not feasible."
      How about you back up your claim with a list of government spending on broadband. TANSTAFL, The cost has to go somewhere.

    14. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      it is (nearly) impossible for a new company to come along and compete (in broadband)

      Well... I've got my choice of four options (fiber, DSL, and two different cable providers). One of the companies involved didn't exist ten years ago. My neighborhood (which was developed in the 70's) now has fiber and coax from multiple providers competing for my money. And they do compete. I actually get reps from the companies I'm not using knocking on the door offering swell deals to make me jump ship.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    15. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by forkazoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Personally, I think the broadband penetration number ("our rank has fallen to #22") is a bit of a red herring because the US is far less densely populated than most other countries and thus perfect broadband penetration is not feasible. And while I'm all for net neutrality, that issue alone is not going to determine who I vote for.

      Yeah, population density explains it. That's why a typical Canadian broadband connection is faster that a typical broadband connection in the US (or any particular part of the US, regardless of population density.)

      Looking at the post from the fellow in Romania, I think it's interesting that HDTV is normal here is the US, but basically doesn't exist in Romania, while the reverse is true for fast Internet. It's not a matter of technology level, or wealth. It's just a matter of priorities. Romania invested in a key enabling technology that has impacts in education, the economy, and individual political empowerment. The US invested in American Idol with extra pixels. And, this makes me sad. I know we could do better, and I just don't understand why we as a society choose not to.

    16. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by thanatos_x · · Score: 4, Informative

      I attempted to compare apples to apples. The population density in NYC or LA has to be greater than the population density of any of those countries outside their cities. Nowhere did I mention our average broadband speed, which even in the best of states is under 5 mbps IIRC. I didn't mention the average (under 3 mpbs), and I certainly didn't mention Alaska (under 1 mpbs)

      Now an above poster mentions that a former USSR country (Romania) gets 10-15 times faster actual download speeds (20/2) than a 20/5 person in the US, and pays 1/3 as much.

      As for your argument about density - Romania's average density is 236/sq mi. There are 11 US states with a density greater than that, according to wikipedia.

      In my opinion (not to disparage Romania at all), but when a country that was under Communist control until 20 years ago has better internet speeds for 1/3 the price of the US, it should be entirely unacceptable.

      Since you like economics, you should know duopolies (which are what most local ISPs are) and oligopolies (nationwide ISPs) don't allocate resources efficiently in many cases and reduce consumer surplus.

      I'm also pretty sure U.S. telecoms have been given subsidies and/or tax breaks in return for guarantees on broadband penetration and speed. For the most part, telecoms are years behind where they promised to be if they got said subsidies.

      If there's anything else you have a question about, let me know.

      --
      I am not an expert. If I am misled in something, please correct me.
    17. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Iceykitsune · · Score: 0

      Where do you live? I want to move there.

      --
      GENERATION 24: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
    18. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      DC area. Not every county in the surrounding 'burbs has been so willing to allow more than one cable company, obviously. But it's nice to have to make Comcast work if they want your attention. I don't use them, but I could switch to them, or Verizon's FIOS, or my current provider (RCN - which also does data, TV, and telco as a bundle, and it's fiber into the 'hood).

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    19. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by supradave · · Score: 1

      We're number 22. Let's get drunk. Why don't we try to be number 1 in something? Anything that isn't a negative.

      "Well, we suck, but we don't suck too much." Go vote for McCain if that's how you feel.

    20. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A dude from Romania had to tell you how to saturate your link. You should close you /. acct and never come back. loser.....

    21. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by marcushnk · · Score: 1

      my goodness, how terrible that must be for you...

      unlike us here in australia where in a capital city it's not possible to get faster than 24/8 for less than $100.00 a month -and- with horribly restrictive download limits of 20-40gb!

      and this is supposed to be a 1st world country... it's shamefull.

      --
      "Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
    22. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by gregbot9000 · · Score: 1

      In my opinion (not to disparage Romania at all), but when a country that was under Communist control until 20 years ago has better internet speeds for 1/3 the price of the US, it should be entirely unacceptable.

      Why? Thats what i was asking, What are the costs? Sure a former soviet country has better internet then U.S.. Government subsidy's excel at this kind of thing. But the cost the end user pays is not the total cost of creation when subsidy is involved. What are the true cost of producing this internet? I'd bet you its way more then what it is in the U.S.. And what is the market desire? If they produce it more cheaply and abundantly then what is actually needed you have tons of resources going to wast.

      Monopolies don't allocate resources efficiently in many cases, but they don't reduce consumer surplus, especially when they are contracted by govt. You're claim that we need more webs make about as much sense as saying we need more cows because the EU has more then the U.S.

      Also comparing price you need to use PPP, not exchange rate if you want anything meaningful.

    23. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in Rotterdam, the Netherlands, I've got around 12 Mbit downstream and 1 Mbit upstream. (It should be 20 Mbit downstream, but I've got ADSL, so in reality it's a bit lower.) I pay 20 EUR per month for it. I'd say that's a very good deal.

    24. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US gave trillions (?) away to invest.

      No response seen.

      And when you have a communist system, you have the inefficient government making decisions on how to spend that subsidy. So if the infrastructure were, as you believe, because they were communist, the result should have been LESS effective infrastructure.

      After all, the USSR spent their money on tanks and planes and hardware like that, not on connecting each and every citizen to a network where information can be shared.

      If they connected high speed links anywhere, it would ONLY have been between their secret police stations and central government.

      So either government control of network infrastructure is BETTER done by government, or they being ex-communist countries had no effect. Or they started off worse than the US and grew quicker.

      Which was it? Those three cover ALL the bases.

    25. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by thanatos_x · · Score: 1

      You're right. I'm sure that being in the USSR started with much better internet than us because of being communist.

      It was the fact that their grocery stores were entirely unstocked that was the reason they failed. That when people came to America they wept the first time they saw one of our grocery stores, of just seeing row after row of food - they thought it was impossible for that to happen, and yet here it was, all over the country.

      I assure you their infrastructure was horrible in 1989. I'm also guessing that they were more concerned about remedying the lack of grocery stores than the lack of internet in the early 90's. It could be that competition tends to force well... the best.

      As for your grasp on economics...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Monopoly-surpluses.svg

      If milk was 10$ a half gallon in the U.S., then I can assure you that we'd have more cows, or we'd have goat milk or soy milk. The market would do that, because there's too much benefit to producing.

      I'm not going to do the research on PPP, but I'm guessing that it's not large enough to make the difference of 5+ times more for 1/3rd the cost, nor is government subsidy (which as I pointed out, we give our telcoms - including some of those taxes on your phone/cable bills)

      --
      I am not an expert. If I am misled in something, please correct me.
    26. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Personally, I think the broadband penetration number ("our rank has fallen to #22") is a bit of a red herring because the US is far less densely populated than most other countries and thus perfect broadband penetration is not feasible.

      No. There's countries with much less density and far better penetration, even in rural areas.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    27. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by fbjon · · Score: 1

      So your government doesn't spend on high-speed penetration, and companies don't spend either. What's your point?

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    28. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by codemaster2b · · Score: 1

      Yes, it certainly DOES mean that it is unfeasible. Profitability runs this country. If it is not profitable, then the government pays for it. If the government pays for it, then you pay for it. In summary, you are willing to lose money (no profitability) so that broadband can be delivered to you. Real feasible.

      --
      And over there we have the labyrinth guards. One always lies, one always tells the truth, and one stabs people who ask t
    29. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because of the current lack of regulation I think I get a fairly fast, unrestricted Internet connection at a fairly low price.

      There, fixed it for you.

    30. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      No, you don't. Fixed that for you.

    31. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How am I not losing money now to have broadband delivered to me? I pay every single month, and I have no equity in anything I'm paying for. I call that lost money. I'm quite certain I've paid the prorated installation cost of the cable to my house several times over in the past 6 years, and if nothing changes, I can look forward to paying it all over again in the next 6 years. I am also absolutely certain that the prorated cost of transit for my traffic is a microscopic portion of my monthly payment.

      So tell me again how an unprofitable utility loses me money?

    32. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      But we have people who can swim really really well, so it's all good, right?

    33. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the benefits to competition.
      When the last-mile is no longer owned by monopolies we may get decent competition.

    34. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      That would depend in the costs to implement it. If it costs me $2,000 to hook into a $45 a month service that is no better then Time Warner's $60 a month service, it would take me 133 months before I ever start seeing a saving. BTW, that's about 11 years so if something more advanced comes along, I might have to pay again to get the better tech.

    35. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by codemaster2b · · Score: 1

      OK, sure. You are paying for a the broadband service/utility that you have no equity in. Much like other consumables such as food or electricity, this is acceptable. But, since broadband is profitable your service provider is making a profit, resulting in expansion, and money flowing back into the economy.

      If broadband were not profitable, then the government would take your money and pour it into broadband anyway (so that everyone can get some). It has the same effect as you directly paying for the expansion of broadband. It will have a negative effect on the economy because money is not flowing back into the economy, it is flowing into a pit that returns nothing.

      To be fair though, you may be perfectly right in saying there is no difference between broadband and power in terms of profitability. I'm sure the power company must provide power even in situations where it would not be profitable, and by consequence it comes out of our pockets for them to do so. So I apologize, it most certainly is feasible. It's just a trade off of what's good for the economy and what's good for the individual and the "quality of life". Who's to say? It gets political after this point.

      --
      And over there we have the labyrinth guards. One always lies, one always tells the truth, and one stabs people who ask t
    36. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by ultranova · · Score: 1

      This is a good argument for selling the 'last mile' to consumers. Some companies are looking into selling the last mile to consumers or smaller communities that way they do not have to pay for the cost.

      But if they do that, what if some nearby communities put a direct line between their networks ? That way they might communicate with each other - great for BitTorrent or shared news or mail servers, for example - without paying the company ! That's clearly communism !

      This also would make a much better argument for net neutrality in consumers and communities owned the last mile.

      Communities telling private business what to do, for the benefit of the people rather than the shareholders ? That's socialism !

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    37. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Your neglecting the fact that almost all broadband access in the US is a dual use connection that works as something else. Romania had to invest in their infrastructure in order to be competitive with western markets and unlike the US, they had the luxury of installing something better from the start. Now in the US, we are replacing the infrastructure and improving it all the time but the shear amounts of it is very taxing compared to a company one quarter the size if that. But upgrading the infrastructure in the US to handle similar speed means more then just putting new lines in, it means building and replacing the dual use tech at the same time which is more costly then just starting from scratch or a very small area is more complexed then you are allowing.

      This really isn't an apples to apples comparison in the way your wanting it to be. Neither county has lines that specifically deliver the internet and nothing else to residential users. It doesn't matter if that other use isn't used, it is still there. So starting from a blank state on a central government subsidized level that was needed to increase competitiveness with the outside world is going to be cheaper in the long run compared to 4 competing technologies that will have to switch the alternate uses along the same lines when the upgrade is made.

      It would be interesting to know a few things about Romania. Like how much does the government subsidize (both in creating the network and in residential costs), how many options for that fast broadband to they have, and how spread out it is (is it something like DSL serving higher speeds closer to the exchange). They you can start making somewhat accurate comparisons.

    38. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Ah, but broadband is not at all like food, and is very much like electricity. Food is a consumable, but broadband and power are utilities. The capital invested in broadband and power is actively useful to me, unlike the capital invested in food production and distribution. I need to utilize the power lines and data transmission lines every day. A tractor isn't personally useful to me, though I'm sure it's useful to the farmer.

      And here you have fallen into my rhetorical trap. You see, I'm a member of an electricity co-op. I do in fact have equity in the corporation that produces and distributes the electricity I use. The co-op corporation is allowed to maintain a fund for operations, but once that fund exceeds its cap, the co-op pays the excess back out to its members. Namely me and my neighbors. The co-op charges a bit more than necessary to maintain their operating funds, and we all get a check every year. I pay MUCH less for power than some regions of the US, and noticeably less even in comparison to people served by a classical for-profit corporation that serves areas nearby.

      So I get my electricity from an organization that is never profitable. It isn't allowed to be. To my knowledge, they get no government handouts, either. Is the money I spend on electricity every month going into a pit that returns nothing? I wouldn't call it that. It's maintaining a cable plant and generation facilities. It's paying linesman and a handful of office workers and (eventually) some coal miners and railroad workers somewhere. It is without a doubt an economic activity. There is just no profit-taking happening on the part of the power company.

      Personally, I prefer it that way, and I think my broadband is going to have to work the same way if the situation is ever to improve.

      Other people have pointed out the vast government handouts given to the telcos in the past two decades. Guess where those handouts went? They were taken as profit, and pocketed by already incredibly wealthy majority shareholders. Talk about your pit of nothingness...

    39. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      I know we could do better, and I just don't understand why we as a society choose not to.

      Hm? The FCC and most corporate boards are generally outside of public accountability, so what makes you think we as a society, rather than politicians controlled by corporate interests, chose American Idol in high-definition over true high-speed Internet?

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    40. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      If it costs me $2,000 to hook into a $45 a month service that is no better then Time Warner's $60 a month service

      True, but that's not how the numbers work out.

      I think it is fair to say that about $25 dollars of any DSL or cable service is going to the physical system.
      (I would love to see more data on this, anyone who knows please speak up. Bell canada charges independent ISPs $27 to use their DSL system)
      That leaves $5 to $35 for IP service. That makes sense if you look at the wholesale price of bandwidth.
      Bandwidth equivalent to what a dsl line can provide would cost $5-15 retail, not $45. For $45/month I could sell you a 50/50mbit service with a monthly limit of 3,000GB
      (no torrent filtering, no deep packet inspection, no bullshit, and 5ms ping times instead of 30)

      A fiber line will last at least 20 years, theoretically it could last 40.
      The physical line will not become obsolete as the copper systems have/will. Even today a single strand can carry 160Gb/s per wavelength. You would only ever have to upgrade the gear at either end. The majority of your $2000 goes to labour for running the fiber line.

      Ultimately it comes down to this: Rent or own.
      Fiber is no more expensive to build than the copper systems.
      So the question is, if you plan on having Internet service for the rest of your life, do you want to rent it or own it?
      If you have the money to make long term investments then it will be a good deal.
      Even if it takes 10 years to pay for itself and lasts 20 you will be saving money.

    41. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Foofoobar · · Score: 1

      and...? Your point? Wait are you saying a network for the people by the people (much like a nation for the people by the people) is Unamerican???

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    42. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Abreu · · Score: 1

      Ok, I'll bite.

      I live in Mexico (very far away from the Soviet area of influence) and I have several options available for broadband here (3 phone companies and 1 cable tv company)

      My cable provider gives me 1.5 Mbps internet, plus phone service (w/unlimited local calls) and 230 channels of digital cable for $64.85USD a month total (at today's exchange rate)

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    43. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      While I will admit that my number might be a little off because I made them up, and my longevity concerns might be overblown but I think yours might have some issues too.

      First, Your seemingly promoting an interconnect situation where you become your own ISP. That would cost a substantial amount more then the $2000 I initially started with as your would now need to track your own routing tables and DNS. Second, the charges to independent ISPs for line ussage, at least in America, is supposed to be the actual costs of operating the lines. I will go out on a limb and assume that Canada has similar laws and the telcos would need to charge more in order to make a profit if their content delivery scheme is removed. so increase that $25-$27 a little as it would be infinitely more cheaper to use their lines from the CO out. It isn't like we can string a line to the CO for every house on top of what is already there. Even if we did, or purchased the existing lines, we still need a compatible line card at the CO in order to piggyback onto their networks. Now, even if we went straight to a backbone, we would still have more expenses and problem depending on the location. Back in 1996, I was attempting to get a 1 meg fiber connection to a backbone that ran about a mile away from me. Permits and right of ways alone was estimated at over 50 grand and I was staying on the public road right of way. Of course the costs of fiber has changed since then and they can carry lots more information but this is a serious underpinning that would need to be addresses first. T1 wasn't reliable at my location because of the conditions of the phone lines and ISDN needed the same right of way to a closer location. Of course the telcos already owned the right of way and could have ran the ISDN a lot cheaper then my fiber install. In the end, we used multiple T1's routed in from different directions bonded and balanced so I don't remember what the total cost of installing was going to be.

      The only other concern I have is that I would change the "will be" to "could be"
        because we really aren't sound on the exact costs. I think this statement would be better served worded this way,

      Even if it takes 10 years to pay for itself and lasts 20 you could be saving money.

      I say this because the real costs could be much higher then we are estimating dues to the fact that the current systems usually piggy back some other profit making service on it. And most of those other services are are availible only because the provider received some monopoly benefit in exchange for spending the money to service an unprofitable area. It isn't apparent that internet alone would or could justify the entire costs.

    44. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lucky you. Here we have either Time-Warner or AT&T. AT&T is cheaper, but its offerings suck. Time-Warner has average speeds and an expensive price tag.

    45. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be interesting to know a few things about Romania. Like how much does the government subsidize (both in creating the network and in residential costs)

      The US subsidizes as well. The industry has received hundreds of billions in tax breaks that were supposed to lead to them increasing bandwidth and providing service to more areas. But of course that didn't happen. They pocketed the money and we're still languishing behind several 3rd world countries in service levels.

    46. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada isn't densely populate, either.

      I guess the colder climate makes the inter-tubes work faster.

    47. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      Personally, I think the broadband penetration number ("our rank has fallen to #22") is a bit of a red herring because the US is far less densely populated than most other countries and thus perfect broadband penetration is not feasible.

      That's the biggest problem here in the USA--people forget that given the population density if western Europe, Japan and South Korea, there are enough customers per square hectare of area that telecoms can afford the exorbitant cost of wiring up everyone to ADSL, cable or fiber-optic broadband Internet access. Here in the USA, the large amount of rural land, sprawled-out surburbs and a lot of old telecom infrastructure wiring means means the cost to make hardwired broadband available to everyone becomes very expensive indeed. It's only within the past eight years that new technologies could create smaller "central switch offices" to extend the range of ADSL to more customers.

      In the USA, the more likely long-term solution will likely be some form of WiMAX wireless access, which avoids the really expensive last mile hardwiring issue into the residence.

    48. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      Rights of way really are a big problem.
      The situation is also highly variable from town to town because it is a municipal government responsibility.
      There are federal rules forcing the municipalities to allow the phone/cable/gas companies access but no global rule requiring easy access for things like customer owner fiber. If the power or phone company 'owns' the rights of way or the poles they could be a big problem.
      Some municipalities require 'fair/open' access to the poles/rightsofway which would be the best situation.

      As for 'being your own isp', that's not quite what I had in mind, let me explain further. The model for the pilot project here in Ottawa is that the customer owns the line from their house to the interconnect point (a carrier neutral datacentre/meet-me room).
      In that datacentre multiple ISPs would operate switches and routers with which to provide Internet (and perhaps other) services to anyone with a line to the datacentre.
      The customer would never have to actually touch anything or configure anything beyond the usual setup of their own firewall or PC.
      It would be very easy to switch your ISP any time you wanted, or to not connect to an ISP at all.

      It does cost something like $50,000 to run a fiber line, and if you are only building a point-to-point system it is very cost prohibitive.
      However! If you run a line through a residential neighbourhood the incremental cost of connecting each building along the route is not very high.
      A point-to-point line that would cost $50,000 might only cost $200,000 if you connect 200 houses along its route. Thus the $1000 per household number.
      If every home signs up the cost is actually fantastically low. It could be as low as $500/household.
      Sadly we cannot hope for 100% uptake. 10-20% is more realistic and makes it much more expensive per household.
      These are the rough numbers for the Ottawa pilot project. The whole thing should cost between $200,000 and $250,000 and could reach 400 houses. If everyone wanted to participate it would be very cheap for each house. An informal poll showed 30% of households would participate. If that happens it will cost about $2100 each.

    49. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      That sound very interesting. I wasn't aware that there was an actual pilot project that went beyond talk. I'm going to have to find out more about it.

      On a side note, I'm imagining that the lines running into the neighborhood will be able to accommodate the houses that haven't signed up yet, at a future date. I'm wondering how this is reconciled if after everything is done and payed for, I decide I wanted in. Obviously chargeing what you paid would be nothing but pure profit but charging less wouldn't be fair to the people who made it happen by absorbing the extra costs. Another question might be, if I put a development with another 100 houses at the end of your block, seeing how your block isn't all used up, would I be allowed to tag into your lines in order to connect each house? And what will that do for reliability and speed if everyone else decided to get connected in that way. They probably already have the answers to that which is why I need to find out more. But it is some interesting situations that could end up causing some upset people. If done wrong, I could end up saturating the lines you already think are fast by piggybacking on them or if I just use empty space, I could cause someone else to pay the high dollar costs for new lines when I use the existing ones up.

      I will look for the Ottawa pilot program and see what is availible for me to learn from.

    50. Re:To save you 16 minutes, by Deadplant · · Score: 1

      I'm imagining that the lines running into the neighborhood will be able to accommodate the houses that haven't signed up yet, at a future date.

      Ya, that's a good point I'll see if I can find out what the plan is for that.

      As for capacity, the trunk line has something like 400 fiber pairs in it and each home will get its own pair running all the way back to the datacentre.
      So there is no sharing of bandwidth until you reach the actual ISP network switches. At that point it will be up to the ISPs to decide how much Internet bandwidth they need to serve their connected clients.

  4. So, McCain is an enemy of the internet then by unity100 · · Score: 0, Troll

    and all the freedom, openness, liberties we enjoy here.

    well. who would have thought...

  5. Lovely... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > McCain will try to solve the broadband penetration "problem" by providing subsidies to the cable and telecom monopolies

    Great. So regulation to protect Net Neutrality by preventing people from making an open market closed is bad, but giving tax money to monopolies is good?

    As for broadband rank, I would like to point out that the Nordic countries do find in spite of having lower densities than we do. Also, if you look at coverage, it's concentrated in the rich areas.

    I'm in the _middle_ of the 5th largest metropolis in the USA, and my choices are:

    * Cable (With a pathetic 20 GB/month download limit, but decent speed... usually).

    * 144 Kbps DSL (Which costs over $100/month, BTW. Those are kilo BITS per second; so downloads top out at 15-16 KB/s).

    * A T1 line (I'm tempted, but it's something like $400/month and I don't have the income to support it).

    * A city wireless network that I'm on the far end of the range for (and can't connect to reliably).

    * Satellite (laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag).

    * Dial-up.

    Supposedly there's FIOS to be had, but not in my area. Only over in the high-income areas. If we were smart, the government would set up some major fiber optic backbones and such to the population centers, then lease lines to local businesses. So the public would OWN the infrastructure (and therefore, care for it), while the businesses would innovate in making use of it.

    Instead, we've given billions to telecoms and gotten nothing in return, because they want to keep the money and cherry-pick the areas they service without making expensive infrastructure investments.

    And you can't do that on the state level, because it becomes "competition" to service people the telecoms *refuse* to.

    1. Re:Lovely... by packeteer · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you are pretty far from any CO. You are in range for IDSL but not regular ADSL. To be at that range you must be pretty far out. There are benefits and drawbacks to anywhere you live. You dont have to deal with as much congestion and people are but you don't get easy broadband. If its not a worthy tradeoff then move.

      --
      unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    2. Re:Lovely... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      > It sounds like you are pretty far from any CO. You are in range for IDSL but not regular ADSL.

      Yup, it is in fact IDSL. I'm just over 20,000 feet from the CO. Thing is, I checked online maps and there weren't a whole lot of COs in the greater Phoenix area. But the question is "why?"

      This is a major metro area. I have to drive 10 miles or more in any direction to get out of town. And you know when you're out of town because there's just desert. The southern edge, just south of the 202/Pecos Rd. near South Mountain is especially stark, with one side of the road built up and the other side is empty desert.

      There are NO good options here for high-speed access. This is NOT a population density problem, either. There are tons of people here. We're #5 in the US, for crying out loud!

      So if you can't get decent speed here of all places, what's wrong with broadband in America?

    3. Re:Lovely... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Your telco simply hasn't upgraded their lines. Your probably on a mix of older and newer lines. When SBC upgraded the lines in my neighborhood, they ran a bundle of fiber to the transfers at all points to the city. This means that fiber and DSL+2 is availible city wide with remote DSLAMS and extending that in any direction is trivial when the needs require it. Now, I don't know if they actually laid fiber-fiber or if they are using some hybred coper-fiber. I got this information second hand from a linesman. Interestingly, competition on DSL wasn't allowed until this upgrade was complete which took something like 5 years. I imagine it won't be long before a FIOS or something similar could be availible. I already know of a medical building that uses a T3 over this very same fiber to run their secure network as well as phones. Time Warner offerers scalable Fiber to commercial/business accounts around here too. I know a girl running a hosting company from her utility room getting 8 meg access for around $200-600 a month. I put a range in there because she has a backup pair of 6 meg DSL connections bonded and load ballances in case of network outages. Of course the DSL connections are barely fast enough on the upload but it keeps a presence if something happens. I'm not sure which bill is the higher one though.

      BTW, I'm in a small town about 30 miles south east of a large metropolitan area smaller but still comparable to Phoenix.

    4. Re:Lovely... by Abreu · · Score: 1

      Darn, you really are screwed!

      I live in Mexico City and my broadband is better and cheaper than yours...

      (of course, computer hardware is more expensive, but well...)

      --
      No sig for the moment.
  6. Population density by overshoot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Personally, I think the broadband penetration number ("our rank has fallen to #22") is a bit of a red herring because the US is far less densely populated than most other countries and thus perfect broadband penetration is not feasible. And while I'm all for net neutrality, that issue alone is not going to determine who I vote for.

    Was the USA more densely populated eight years ago?

    I'll point out that Arizona is more urban than the Netherlands. Almost all of Arizona's population lives in major urban areas; the Netherlands has a higher net population density but a much higher percentage of their population lives in nonurban villages.

    This is by way of saying that population density is a red herring, because broadband penetration is measured by people, not square miles. The USA's ranking isn't being driven down by the lack of broadband on the Yuma Proving Grounds or the Plains of St. Augustin.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Population density by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Interesting bit of selective statistics. Arizona is a desert state, where there isn't much point to living outside of a city. Its not very representitive of the US as a whole. We have far more agricultural states, where near universal coverage is more of a problem.

      Now let's see what Wikipedia has to say about your figures for the Netherlands:

      However, municipality sizes alone do not reflect the degree of urbanisation in the Netherlands comprehensively. Many of the larger Dutch cities are the cores of a significantly larger urban agglomeration.

      But let's take your (bad) example at face value. It turns out Arizona is about 300K square kilometers in area, while the Netherlands is only 41K square KM. Arizona has a population of 6 million while the Netherlands has a population of 16 million. If you could own either Arizona or the Netherland's cable company, which would you rather have?

  7. Is it likely Lessig might be lying? by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

    In court, we require people to testify in person, and if they cannot for some good reason, we take a video deposition and show that. This is because we want the jury to see the person, to be better able to judge from their demeanor whether or not to believe them. Witnesses often have a strong incentive to lie, so this is important.

    What are the chances Lessig is going to lie about his position on McCain's platform? Seems pretty damned low to me--I think we could trust him if a textual form of his analysis were available. So why present this in a cumbersome video format?

    1. Re:Is it likely Lessig might be lying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're absolutely right, just like how shaving turns evil scum into upstanding citizens, because a man with a mustache is hiding something, and the exact same man without one has no secrets.

    2. Re:Is it likely Lessig might be lying? by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > So why present this in a cumbersome video format?

      Welcome to the 21st Century. Text is dead, video is everything.

      Litteracy in written English will be as common as basic arithmetic skills are now in another generation or so. The pocket calculator did in math, the mouse and cameras on everything will do in writing.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    3. Re:Is it likely Lessig might be lying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a "video". Get with the times. It's a facecast.

    4. Re:Is it likely Lessig might be lying? by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

      Learn to read, idiot. I did not imply he would lie. I implied just the opposite.

  8. How CHANGE This? by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

    "Borrowing" Obama's slogan design notwithstanding, that reads like a lolcat.

    I can has internetz?

    Of course, he may be targeting the casual youtube viewer who's considering McCain, who is a poor choice in terms of technology and liberty.

    --
    "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
  9. tax cuts vs subsidies by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A subsidy is very different from a tax cut. Of course, one shouldn't be surprised that Lessig makes this confusion as his political leanings...

    Lessig first refers to them as tax cuts; he obviously is not "confused" about the distinction, he quite deliberately equates tax cuts with subsidies, and the end result of a selective tax cut and a subsidy (assuming the subsidy is not larger than the amount taxed) is the same thing, as you well know.

    If you don't see the distinction ... imagine calling a decrease in your personal income tax a subsidy :)

    I would have no problem calling a tax reduction on a demographic I don't belong to a "subsidy" rather than a tax cut, especially if the tax cut seems to have been applied arbitrarily. If it applied to myself, I might be able to fool myself into calling it a tax cut, but the only one fooled would be myself; to everyone else who didn't qualify, it would be a subsidy.

    his political leanings tend to assume that tax money originates and belongs to the government, not the originating source of the income.

    ...

    The word subsidy also makes it sound like McCain wants to fill evil telecoms' pockets with undeserved cash.

    You seem to be basing your arguments on the notion that the money rightly belongs to the taxpayer, and than it is wrong for the government to take it. However, McCain is not proposing to repeal taxes altogther, but to take tax money from some and not from others. Supposing we were to agree that taxes are a necessary evil in order to support a civil society. Which would you consider in general to be the best policy: tax everyone equally, or tax some people and not others? (And I am aware that current tax policy does not tax equally, but that's an issue for another time.)

  10. All I want to say about McCain is by andy1307 · · Score: 4, Funny

    John McCain has a comprehensive economic plan that will create millions of good American jobs, ensure our nation's energy security, get the government's budget and spending practices in order, and bring relief to American consumers. Click to learn how the McCain Economic Plan will help bring reform, prosperity and peace to America.

    1. Re:All I want to say about McCain is by Pork+Flavour · · Score: 2, Funny

      Click to learn how the McCain Economic Plan will help bring reform, prosperity and peace to America.

      Peace? Oh, that John McCain cracks me up...

    2. Re:All I want to say about McCain is by jannone · · Score: 5, Funny

      McCain's website is written in ASP. Obama's is in PHP. I rest my case.

    3. Re:All I want to say about McCain is by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 1

      McCain eats cock. I'm sorry, but anyone who qualifies "rich" as more than $5 million is an out of touch moron. Of course, he can't figure out how to use these fancy interwebs, so please read him this comment along with his daily email printouts.

    4. Re:All I want to say about McCain is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      McCain's website is written in ASP. Obama's is in PHP.

      I rest my case.

      The first one to write their web site in ASM gets my vote.

    5. Re:All I want to say about McCain is by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Looks like the Republican party has discovered the intertubes with a vengeance. We will now be subject to an ever-increasing barrage of nuisance posts full of feel-good platitudes engineered by the great Republican PR machine. (Both the barrage and the platitudes...)

      John McCain can accomplish precisely dick, out of that entire list, if elected. The office he is going for is President. Why oh why do people persist in believing that the US Presidency has ANY affect on the economy? The US President isn't allowed to buy so much as a pencil with government funds without the authorization of Congress. And he's going to "create millions of good American jobs?"

      I suppose he could, by repudiating NAFTA and all other trade agreements with foreign powers and by eliminating the H-1B visa. Do you seriously expect us to believe that a REPUBLICAN would do that? When we damn well know he'll establish more of the same, because big business asks him to?

      This is not to say that Barack Obama's situation would be any different, if elected. I'm just pointing out that your rhetoric is utterly empty, provably false, predictably false, and otherwise useless.

  11. Re:pissy frost by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1, Funny

    Must you mention Bud Light in every bloody thread?

  12. ROTFL. Its a mccain spambot by poptones · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Sadder still, one of the fleshy kind. Comprehensive economic plan that will create jobs? Yeah, like every other republican of the last century... but, we don't need more low paying service jobs, you stupid fuck.

  13. Lessig is a hack by Scudsucker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I lost all respect for Lessig when he described the opposition to telecom immunity as "leftist hysteria". It's like if Richard Stallman suddenly called opposition to DRM the work of "Linux zealots".

    1. Re:Lessig is a hack by KiahZero · · Score: 1

      Except that's not what your linked article says at all. Lessig is talking about the hysteria over Obama's reaction to the FISA bill.

      For instance:

      This is not an easy task. I don't know, for example, how I personally would have made the call. I certainly think immunity for telcos is wrong. I especially think it wrong to forgive campaign contributing telco companies for violating the law while sending soldiers to jail for violating the law. But I also think the FISA bill (excepting the immunity provision) was progress. So whether that progress was more important than the immunity is, I think, a hard question. And I can well understand those (including some friends) who weigh the two together, and come down as Obama did (voting in favor).

      --
      I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
    2. Re:Lessig is a hack by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      Except that's not what your linked article says at all. Lessig is talking about the hysteria over Obama's reaction to the FISA bill.

      Except you'rer arguing a distinction without a difference, since opposing immunity meant supporting those fighting it (like Dodd) and putting pressure on the rest (like Obama) to do the right thing.

    3. Re:Lessig is a hack by KiahZero · · Score: 1

      I think you're projecting your own hackdom onto Lessig, or you simply saw "immunity hysteria" in the headline and forgot to read the rest of the article you linked.

      Obama had to make a decision on a particular bill with a particular set of components. The FISA bill had good components (closing loopholes the Administration had used) and bad components (telecom immunity). As Lessig points out, this becomes a question of which is more important: fixing the law going forward, or punishing those who previously violated it. There was no "both" option. I don't know which way I would have voted if I were in the Senate, because I don't know enough about the substantive changes to FISA to make an informed decision. But I can recognize that there's an unavoidable weighing of preferences that must be performed, and you should as well.

      To make the value judgment at work more clear (and more absurd) - imagine there was a bill that granted telecom immunity (bad), but also established a universal healthcare system, ended the war in Iraq, and gave everyone a pony if they wanted one (good). Wouldn't it seem a bit silly to say Obama was "for" telecom immunity, especially if he said "I hate this telecom immunity part, and I'll work to fix it, but ending the war and universal healthcare are too important... and also, ponies?"

      Your initial argument was that Lessig "described the opposition to telecom immunity as 'leftist hysteria,'" and he did no such thing, or anything close to that (especially since he himself opposes telecom immunity, and doesn't consider himself hysterical). He complains that various and sundry progressives / liberals / leftists are throwing a fit without fully considering the impact of their preferred actions, and he's right.

      --
      I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
  14. Re:Population density - who fing cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most people are fine with that they have and usually only bitch about it when it's not working. Most of the people in the US who want broadband already have access to it. How difficult is it to get slashdotters heads around the concept that many people are perfectly fine w/o computers or internet. They live their lives like they always have and DGAF about broadband penetration unless some idiot politician wants to raise taxes for it.

    Of course, then you have ISPs that are also in the video on demand business on the cable TV side of things. Do you think they are going to do anything but drag their feet when it comes to implementing technology that is going to kill a cash cow? Of course not. so continue whining about how your korean friends can download porn faster than you. If it's that big of a deal: MOVE! you won't be missed.

  15. Ummm it's a subsidy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The distinction between a subsidy and a taxcut amounts to magical thinking. It's what corporations, republicans do to pretend they aren't feathering their own nest with our tax dollars, but are instead being 'pro market' and 'fiscally responsible' when they are actually passing out free money to the people who own them.

    A targeted tax cut of any sort serves one purpose. To artificially reduce the cost of doing business for an industry or market segment in order to make investment in that area more attractive.

    That *tax break* you get on your mortgage interest is a subsidy designed to encourage home ownership. The accelerated depreciation on capital equipment purchases is a subsidy designed to induce companies to purchase durable goods at an otherwise unfavorable juncture.

    They are all simply a means to manipulate the flow of capital through the markets in a hopefully beneficial manner.... though how effective it is often depends on your definition of beneficial.

  16. flamebait? by poptones · · Score: 1

    Apparently another mccain droid got some mod points.

    Fuck you, too, parasite cocksucker.

  17. Public projects by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Yes, it certainly DOES mean that it is unfeasible. Profitability runs this country. If it is not profitable, then the government pays for it. If the government pays for it, then you pay for it. In summary, you are willing to lose money (no profitability) so that broadband can be delivered to you.

    Uh, no, I already have broadband. Just like most of the people that supported (and paid for) the government initiative for rural electrification already had electricity. Now, I think I gain a benefit (and a financial one, in the long term) from the overall economic improvements that increased access would bring, but its not the kind that creates a private profit motive, because the benefit is diffuse and not very large on an individual scale, such that everyone is better off if someone does it, but no individual or corporation has an incentive to fund it themselves, since the net benefit to the funder would be negative.

  18. obama hasn't fallen far from the tree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama could give a shit about technology.

    He want's nothing more that to pay pennence to his European masters who feel guilt for their part in the slave trade.

    Hope