Slashdot Mirror
Councils Recruit Unpaid Volunteers To Spy On Their Neighbors
Several readers have written to tell us that a recent move in the UK has councils relying on info from "Citizen Snoopers" to report the transgressions of their neighbors. Currently only implemented as "environment volunteers" designed to keep watch on things like litter, dog habits, and improper trash sorting, there is a certain amount of trepidation that this could grow into something more sinister. "It will fuel fears that Britain is lurching towards a Big Brother society, following the revelation this week that the Home Office is extending some police powers to council staff and private security guards. Critics said the latest scheme could easily be abused and encourage a culture of bin spies and curtain twitchers. Matthew Elliott, of the Taxpayers' Alliance, said: 'Snooping on your neighbors to report recycling infringements sounds like something straight out of the East German Stasi's copybook.'"
I know its fashionable to see the UK government as a bunch of closet dictators , but really this is more about money - or lack of. Rather than it being the beginning of the UKs version of the Stasi its simply a case of the government not wanting to cough up cash for real police so they hope they can fob us off with cut price gimmicks like this. They've already given us the Community Support Officer (the plastic police) which is effectively a policeman with limited powers - and crucially a lower salary , but by getting the curtain twitcher types to report on people they don't have to pay any salary.
Of course what will happen to a private civilian with no backup or weapons of any sort trying to stop or ticket some 250lb drunk lout with attitude chucking his beer can over a fence is anyones guess...
Reminds me of the kids in 1984 spying on their parents and reporting on the poor Parsons.
Here in Michigan we also do this. If your neighbor wont cut his grass in a timely manner there is usually a municipal number you can call. The city agents will come out and issue a fine. This applies to more than grass though. Animals, noise, etc. If there it is a "private" neighborhood then you can have other things written into the charter or whatever its called for that area.
Its really only concerned with property related things though. If you see your neighbor growing pot plants, you'd have to find another number to call...
Like fuck it won't.
I don't like my neighbour, the dog. Yup, the neighbour didn't clean up after their dog.
Yes, they are not sorting their recycling.
This sort of shit moves society away from an open society to a society of fear. I would have thought that getting people to work together and trust each other (and deserve that trust) would be much better then getting them to mistrust and fear their neighbours.
Same sort of shit where doctors for children and podiatrists are mistaken for "paedophiles".
I wank in the shower.
Isn't voluntary work by definition unpaid?
Don't worry. I have a drug house in front of mine. That means we get a lot of vandalism, theft, noise, car crashes, and a loss of sleep at night. So I bought a top of the line camera ($2500) to catch the action and turn it into the police. They like the pretty pictures of the drugs and cash trading hands, but after a few months, the drug house is still going strong:
http://rs6.risingnet.net/~dattaway/shame
Here's the Axis network webcam for you to play with (you'll quickly find out I'm in the USA where bandwidth SUCKS!)
http://www.dattaway.net/
Why is it that UK seems to lead in privacy-crippling, big-brother style techniques?
All corners covered, CCTV, spying on each other and clearly, there's still no good evidence of any of this wrking twards any good results...
From my experience, if there are some really bad things happening, neighbour will not report, being too scared.
Uh, perhaps some people need to read 1984 again. By the time people start "informing" on one another, Big Brother is already here. "Lurching"? More like "Arrived".
Britain is lost behind an iron curtain of it's own making.
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
I think it's sad when people can't behave responsibly without being snooped upon, whether it's the police or neighbours.
I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
I purchased a car a few months ago.
It didn't have any tax when I got it.
I had it parked on the side of the road for 2 days whilst I was waiting for my insurance documents to come through so that I can get tax (it's impossible to get tax without insurance).
I was in a catch 22 situation, it was impossible for me to get tax.
Anyhow, one of my neighbours dutifully phoned up the DVLA (a government agency) who promptly clamped my car and gave me a £200 fine which I payed promptly.
A few weeks later I received another letter from the DVLA this time threatening to fine me £83 for not licensing my vehicle or they were going to take me to court.
I'm going to go to court as I hope that the judge will see that they put me in an impossible situation (but I expect I'll probably end up having to pay an even larger fine)
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Growing things in pots is a transgression in Michigan?
I have a friend who lives in Switzerland who says that getting reported to the authorities by your neighbours for petty rule violations is a fairly common occurrence there.
"In Hampshire, Eastleigh council wants locals to 'monitor local environmental quality' and report 'issues' involving recycling and waste."
If you take the single quotes out and read it without your tin foil hat on there's nothing to object to. It's just the council asking for people to report problems which they'll then look into. Surely every local government in the world does that.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
This rubbish is the sort of thing that made me leave the UK eight years ago. Right now I'm a couple of thousand miles away and I couldn't be happier.
Ganty
My parents recently returned from a trip that included visiting Croatia and Serbia. One of the things that touched them the most was the tall, gray, nondescript cement block apartment buildings that stretched for miles and miles, built by the fascist communist government. In these dreary buildings, the interior walls were intentionally built thinner than usual. It was not only for cost reasons, however... it is said that over 50% of people eavesdropped on and informed on their neighbors to the communist government, and the paper-thin walls made it so that people had to constantly whisper for fear of being overheard.
Dr Superlove 300ml. I use my powers for awesome
Betray your family and friends. Fabulous prizes to be won! And don't forget to vote fascist for a third glorious decade of total law enforcement.
perhaps i should be proactive and kill/attack anyone who comes near me or my property, just to be safe of course
does the gov think its a healthy thing to encouraging that you to trust nobody ?
That's the way it is in Texas.
"There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
This isn't something to worry about if you're rich. No one's going to come out to your country estate and spy to make sure that your caviar jar is sorted into the glass recycling bin. See, creeping fascism isn't about government trying to control everyone, it's about motivating us to become better (that is, rich) so we don't have to worry about such things. I'm glad when governments care so much about encouraging their citizens to reach their full potential.
These are usually local ordinances. They are fairly rare as whole cities go, but if you live in a community with a "Homeowners Association" then they can have all sorts of crazy "laws". Junk vehicles in your driveway, bushes are too high, need to rake leaves, children are ugly, daughter is a floozy, etc. More often than not, the elderly are in charge of the Homeowner's Association, and spend their days looking through binoculars to see if that no-good 30-something couple's dog is making on their lawn again... and they didn't pick it up!
Welcome to The 'Burb's.
The core of the problem is there is no duty to recycle. No one sees a problem with neighbor reporting a murder, yet you seem to see a problem with neighbor reporting failure to recycle.
The problem is not with the denunciation per se, but the fact that the law is unjust, and the sole result of a coercive monopoly on trash collection, aided by an ecological agenda undermining individual freedom.
You should have screamed when recycling became mandatory, you should have screamed at the monopoly on roads and trash collection.
Obviously the danger with these schemes is that the government will push more unjust law, and use its own citizens to report on other's violations.
The only way this works is because people have a false reverence towards the state, they believe that by making law, it has the power to make just what is unjust, and unjust what is just.
From experience, most people on Slashdot have a good intuition, nevertheless when pressed a little they fall back on a positivist view of law, giving governments the authority to define what is and is not a crime for example. Sad.
\u262D = \u5350
I know that in Germany (living here, have heard it from people dealing with government official agencies) a comparable system is being deployed as well. People are being hired to check for "incongruities" in the neighboorhood; to what full extent i don't know, but i do know that it encompasses the first listed things as well, like checking for litter, unsafe locations, etc.
Doesn't sound very good to me.
Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many.
"It's for the greater good." Did none of these idiots see "Hot Fuzz"??? Sheesh!
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Here we call it Home Owner's Associations. They have the legal right to lien your house if you don't cut your lawn. In my experience, the "police" for these groups are bored, older, retired people who volunteer to spy on their neighbors, their neighbor's neighbors, etc. Did I mention they were bored?
My name fits again.
In an ideally policed state, there would be sufficient police employed to witness or prevent every deliberate crime but this is impractical.
Really? Very many things that we do every day are technically crimes. Even the most careful driver will sometimes exceed the speed limit by 1mph. So we depend on the lack of ubiquitous policing in order to be able to live our lives as we do.
That's one reason why the sudden imposition of automated, mechanical law enforcement is so unpopular. Everyone knows that the speed limit is (say) 30mph, but everyone breaks it occasionally. If you had to drive such that you never exceeded the limit, you would have to drive at 10mph less than the limit, just to make sure. So what appears to be enforcement of the limit is really a reduction of the limit.
This is already common practice in Switzerland, where your neighbor will turn you in for not having you car's road tax updated even though you don't drive and your car is parked in the common building garage or you have the crazy idea of flushing the toilet after 22 h. Yes, both are actual examples...
In an ideally policed state, there would be sufficient police employed to witness or prevent every deliberate crime but this is impractical.
I disagree. In an ideally police state, there will not be a huge need for police. Fear will keep people in their place. The fear of knowing your neighbor is right next door nigh 24/7, for example.
The main thing about this that keeps it from being overly fascist is the lack of punishment for failing to report on your neighbor. This is only a little bit fascist.
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
It's a scene from 1984 : Winston's trying to pry stories about pre-Ingsoc England from an old drunk in a pub:
Calls 'isself a barman and don't know what a pint is! Why, a pint's the 'alf of a quart, and there's four quarts to the gallon. 'Ave to teach you the A, B, C next.'
'Never heard of 'em,' said the barman shortly. 'Litre and half litre -- that's all we serve. [...]
'E could 'a drawed me off a pint,' grumbled the old man as he settled down behind a glass. 'A 'alf litre ain't enough. It don't satisfy. And a 'ole litre's too much. It starts my bladder running. Let alone the price.'
It's so people don't park on their heads.
If you take the single quotes out and read it without your tin foil hat on there's nothing to object to. It's just the council asking for people to report problems which they'll then look into. Surely every local government in the world does that.
Eventually people will learn that tin foil, (in its metaphoric state), is a healthy additive in any mental diet.
I'm guessing that this lesson won't sink in until those people find themselves on the wrong side of some barbed wire. But we don't like to think of such things, so it's better to make silly jokes and hope we're right despite the mounting evidence to the contrary. --Or worse, secretly plan to be one of the informers, so you can finally do away with all the queers and colored people and those weird neighbors who looked at you funny that one time.
Don't worry though. I'll throw some bread over the wall for you after your sociopathic neighbor who hates you for no good reason calls the cops on you for having a suspicious number of empty spam tins or whatever in your recycling bin. Unless of course you turn her in first, in which case I'll just punch you in the mouth. Hm. Better turn me while you're at it. Cuz you know, I'm one of those strange people who wears that suspicious-looking tin foil. And boy, wouldn't it be nice to be able to get rid of that lot, eh? They're a blight on the community! They're different. They don't salute with proper British gusto. They don't support the war!
-FL
Don't try and pin this exclusively on the political left. The current UK government is at best centre-right (if not far right in terms of economic policy at least, privatising everything in sight and punishing the poor to relieve the rich). As has been mentioned elsewhere, Nazi Germany had just such a scheme in place. Don't try the Nazi=socialist bullshit either, because that ignores the historical facts that Hitler purged any vaguely left wing elements early on and that the Nazi party colluded extensively with both foreign and domestic corporations.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
[citation needed]
I've seen that statistic before, and never seen any backing for it. How many CCTV cameras are there in the UK, and how did you arrive at that figure? I doubt it's anywhere near four million.
The Scientology mob are buying the police and anyone caught with an anti-scientology sign or placard is arrested.
[citation needed], especially since I see a largish crowd of kids with placards and Guy Fawkes masks in town outside the local mothership all day once a month. I think they're protesting about Scientology, although quite a lot of the placards seem to have to do with Rick Astley, water-type Pokémon, and the length of cats instead.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
From the article...
"The 'covert human intelligence sources' keep watch on suspected law-breakers"
"Volunteers will be involved in reporting issues in their area"
"The recruits will also be involved in the 'promotion of recycling and waste minimisation"
Sounds more like "Thought Police" than Special Constables.
For example...
"Snooping on your neighbours to report recycling infringements" - i.e. Watching others.
"Volunteers will be involved in reporting issues in their area" - i.e. Reporting others.
"The recruits will also be involved in the 'promotion of recycling and waste minimisation" - i.e. Changing how people think and so behave.
So its far more like "Thought Police". Yeah they are there to protect us all, so its good warm feelings for all of us. Yeah right. The problem is this new Thought Police are also there to enforce whatever new rules petty councils think up. As usual the minority of power seekers, who seek to dictate rules and terms to others, also seek to encourage and lead their mini armies of sheep minded people to follow what they want. (Power seekers are sadly so predictable. Their names and ideas change thoughout history, and from country to country, but what always remains, is their constant need to find ever more ways to dictate their rules to others and always, ultimately they are the ones who gain from their power seeking, even these want-to-be petty council dictators with their free army of sheep minded people).
There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
oh yes, and because most of these 'offences' only carry a fine, if you choose to fight the Fixed Penalty Notice protection racket you're not entitled to a lawyer (whereas the council representative is a lawyer). If they win; you pay prosecution costs, if you win; taking time of work, preparing a case and the general stress of it all don't count as 'costs' so you end up seriously out of pocket.
This battle ought to be fought in magistrates courts, with the cases being repeatedly tossed as being outside the boundaries of sanity, byelaw or not. (Or, if that's not possible, with fines substantially smaller than the FPN being issued, and no costs.) Unfortunately, that's not how magistrates think.
FGD 135
Not necessarily true. A proper study design will *always* allow for this sort of input. At the very least, someone will collate any such write-ins that they get and account for them. Afterwards there's a chance that the analysts may then go ahead and decide that it's noise and disregard it, but they can only do that AFTER tallying up this and any other write-ins. IF they get a significant number of write-in answers, particularly a significant number with the same or very similar answer, the database will have to be altered to account for them, and in the report it will have to be noted that there was this unexpected response, which was statistically significant, and which might likely have been even more significant had it not required a write-in to record. The next iteration of the survey should then have that response available without a write-in.
This is the proper way to do it. I'm not saying there arent fly-by-night survey outfits that cut corners, and I'm not saying it's impossible that some of them cut this particular corner - but to do otherwise is disreputable and scientifically unsound.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
"Keep trying to change the system through demonstration and voting."
More than a million people demonstrated in the streets of London against the invasion of Iraq, but the government went ahead and did it anyway. 78% of the British people did not vote for the Labour government, but they were elected anyway; worse, they were only elected because of Scottish votes, but many of the most unpopular laws they've passed don't apply in Scotland.
There is roughly zero chance of changing things through demonstrating or voting in the UK. It's a rapidly decaying police state where a chav who beats you up in the street will get a slap on the wrist, while a middle class productive worker who doesn't go along with the latest 'recycling' bullshit will get a big fine and a criminal record that will cause them problems for years afterwards.
And that is why I left for good last year. Anyone with a clue should be getting the hell out before emigration is banned too; they've already talked about requiring exit visas to leave the country, it won't be long before they're brought in.
In the UK most people earning a professional wage have some sort of top-up healthcare. This is often provided by their employer or it can be bought by individuals. Usually it covers spouses and children. This provides guarantees of care within a very short time period and can provide things the NHS won't, like private rooms and more time with consultants. Companies like it because it means people get back to work faster and people like it because it gives them stuff like private rooms.
I would suspect most MPs have this for themselves and their families, much like many (most?) of the supposedly left-wing Labour Party send their kids to private schools.
Well, in British parlance they send them to public schools (private institutions), not state schools (publicly funded).
Private medicine is not illegal in the UK, it's a well established system.
The problem is that these associations show up everywhere, and as you might note, they're trying to enforce laws that are not legal. I see no reason that the grandparent should have to hunt everywhere for a non-HOA location just because some idiots want to play God but haven't researched the local laws.
Sometimes you may seem like a jerk for doing so, but a stand needs to be taken.
I lived in London in the early 1970s for a while when the IRA was bombing public buildings. I spent a considerable amount of time going in and out of Parliament doing my dissertation research and regularly had my bags inspected and so forth. All these measures seemed reasonable given the actual threat IRA bombings posed.
Yet I don't recall any political party at the time advocating anything like the extensive state surveillance apparatus that has been implemented in Britain over the past few years. Perhaps being back in the US I'm not as sensitive to the threat posed by al-Qaeda to the British public, but al-Qaeda doesn't seem substantially more dangerous than were the IRA in the 70's.
As a American with leftish tendencies, I find it sad to see the Labour party become the party of surveillance and represssion. It's hard to imagine the Tories would be much better. The LibDems typically stand up for personal privacy; are they the only political party now committed to the defense of individual rights in the UK today?
Or is this all a popular reaction to the fact that Britain has become even more multi-racial now than it was then? Is this really fundamentally a racist reaction?
My neighbour is spying on me!
How do you mean sir?
Well, see, I was peaking out my curtain...
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry.'" -Gary Larson
I just read both the article and the retractions. A 10-year-old boy saw his 8-year-old little sister go under. He literally died trying to save her. That's Harry-fracking-Potter bravery right there, and Heaven is plus one lad tonight.
Two grown men are told two children are under the water. Wisdom is one set of eyes high, one set low. One man stays on the ground to watch the water and wave the paramedics over, one man gets in the water and prays to get lucky. You won't see squat in a pond's murk, but you sure as hell won't save anyone from the shore.
The natural inclination for good men would be for both to get in the water, and that would be a tactical mistake, since once you're in the water, you won't see bubbles and ripples.
According to all reports, both men stayed dry.
All I can imagine is that neither knew how to swim. I hope for their sake they were merely cowards. If this was just indifference, then this would be one of the few cases where I would support the death penalty.
How the hell do you NOT get in the water?