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Redesigned, Bulkier Honda Insight to Challenge Prius
In what probably amounts to good news for consumers eyeing a hybrid for their next vehicle purchase, Honda is resurrecting the "Insight" name, this time in the form of a five-seat, Prius-like hatchback. The automaker's announcement included the tantalizing statement that the cost would be "significantly below [that of] hybrids available today," but provided no further details on pricing. Although Honda may have some trouble unseating Toyota's dominance of this particular hybrid market, hopefully the Insight's reintroduction will help to make hybrid cars even more affordable to consumers. This is also welcome news to folks like myself who, after the initial flurry of excitement when the now-retired original Insight was introduced in '99, were left scratching their heads at Honda's hybrid strategy as Toyota picked up their dropped ball and ran with it.
What would manbearpig drive?
The problem is with hybrids is that for most you end up paying more than you would your current car:
If you have your car payed off and spend $70 a week for gas, that is a total of $3640 for an entire year.
On the other hand, if you buy a $25000 hybrid, you might only need to buy $30 of gas a week, but unless your car payments are less than $120 a month, you aren't saving any money by buying a hybrid.
Yes, over time a hybrid is going to save you money, but by the time you get it payed off, there will be a more effective hybrid that costs less.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
We need Diesel first. Then maybe double clutched diesel hybrid manuals, I don't know; using a torque converter is a horrible, horrible idea (coupling: 10% efficient. Acceleration: hahahahahahahahaha).
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The original Insight got slightly better gas mileage than the Prius-- for people who don't need the room of the 4-door, it was a nice car. I wonder if the new one will also blow away the Prius mileage?
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Good to know Honda's merger with Satan Corp. is working out for them.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I almost bought one when it first came out but the test-drive was horrible. The rear-view mirror was unusable due to the design of the rear window/hatch. The main support cross-member completely blocked the view splitting the mirror in half. That left you with trying to look over the top of it (and seeing mostly sky) or under it through a darkly tinted 'lower window' which only left a view of the bumper of the car 5 feet behind you.
I am 5'10" tall so completely 'average' by North American standards, but perhaps this car was designed to 'fit' an average Asian.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
Honda should pick up Toyota's all-electric "dropped ball" and run with it. If memory serves, Toyota used to have a 100% electric car and stopped making it. Since ALL of my weekday driving is well within about 50 kilometres of home, I'd kill for one.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Why not just buy a Civic or a Fit?
They're both pretty nice compact cars that get fantastic mileage (~34mpg) without any fancy hybrid stuff.
For a good bit less than a Prius (which you couldn't even buy at the moment if you wanted to), you can get a car that gets better mileage, drives better, and is likely to be considerably more reliable.
On the other end of things, diesels are beginning to make a very big comeback, as virtually all of the traditional downsides to diesel engines have been taken care of. The fact that they get 40+ MPG makes them pretty attractive.
Also, now that the natural gas industry has woken up to the fact that there is a metric shit-ton of money waiting to be made by packaging and selling their product as automotive fuel, I imagine that we'll be seeing quite a few CNV vehicles in the upcoming years.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Honda is resurrecting the "Insight" name, this time in the form of a five-seat, Prius-like hatchback.
So changing in to a 5-seaters allow more people to get out of the car and help when there's a big hill right?
Anything and Everything about the Net
Beans for dinner anyone?
Good advice, I won't buy a new computer. Mine works just fine! Just like my non-hybrid car that is fully paid off. Maybe I could donate that $500/mo that I would normally spend on car payments to some coral reef project or some other global warming related thing. Then I'd be way ahead of those hybrid guy. Plus donating to a charity gives me a way bigger tax break.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Is there a rule somewhere that says hybrid cars have to be fugly? This one looks much better than the previous insight. But the Prius get zero points for style.
Thanks, but I'll stick with my car that doesn't use 20 pounds of cadmium and which cost only $6000 used.
Also, I'll walk and bike when possible.
And I'm never, ever going to buy a hybrid unless it has a manual transmission.
I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/honda-insight-overview.html
The 1989 civic got 50mpg highway, better than the Prius.
Yes, we need extra safety items. Yes, those add weight. But all the advances made in improving efficiency have been burned away on power and sportiness and cup holders.
50 Mpg TWENTY years ago.
And no mention of a plug-in aspect.
Very discouraging.
New Honda Insight Hybrid Revealed, Expected $18,500 Price Tag To Make It World's Cheapest
Dont know about you, but I would say thats a bit more detail on pricing, $18500, about the price of a standard/econo car these days.
tm
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Honda already has a car that is more fuel efficient than any car they sell in North America, and would easily out-sell the Prius. But they choose not to sell it in North America.. why?
It's called the Civic CTDi. The Civic is already the most popular car in North America. It is less expensive than the Civic Hybrid, offers a heap more power, and has arguably better combined mileage. In fact, this engine was awarded "International Engine of the Year" in 2005.
I just hope they are really priced lower than current hybrids. Also, they make enough of them to meet demand. These day you can't get Prius in Dallas without paying thousands over MSRP and being put on a waiting list. One Prius I test drove was price at $31k MSRP and they were asking $33k for it! Most of dealers just load their Prius up with everything. If they priced it right, I would consider buying one in next few years.
The EPA changed its fuel economy standards in 2008, and perhaps other times between 1989 and then. The 2007 Prius is rated at 60 mpg city, 51 highway; the 2008, which is really the same car, is rated at 48/45. So you definitely can't compare the 1989 numbers with the 2008.
Are you adequate?
I drove both the insight and then the prius. The insight started with gas motor by default so it made noise when you started unless you did more than 3 starts and stops in a short period. The electrical motor only kicked in at higher speeds (most of the time). The Prius did things the other way around. When you start it's electric only unless you push the pedal to the metal. Because of the way the insight started you never could hear the silence that makes driving the Prius so much fun. That and the insight had poor visibility behind.
If you're going to buy a Dogdge/Jeep/Chrysler product, better do it soon. They aren't going to be in business past the next 2-3 years.
I own a real 2000 Honda Insight. It is an amazing car. Aluminum bodied two seater made to last.
The low weight and the 990 CC engine with electric assist ensure that I am the one pulling away with spinning wheels at the lights leaving muscle cars in the dust.
This new Insight although it looks like the original one, is a stock standard steel vehicle, high curb weight. Bigger engine on even bigger weight would mean less acceleration, poorer MPG and thanks to the steel body shorter lifespan. I test drove a brand new Honda Civic last week and came away less than impressed. Just another over sized car.
I think the real Insight showed a vision of smaller more nimble cars as frugal with gas as a small motor cycle. No you can't carry 10 bags or cement it it but that is why it is called a commuter vehicle.
The "new" "Insight" does not do the original car any justice.
Someone people care less about how much they pay for gas and more about using less of it. I'm looking at getting the Hymotion/A123systems battery pack for Toyota hybrids so I can go 40-50 miles all electric. Not because of the price of gas, but because I don't like shoveling my money to those who provide the fuel. If you use less fuel with a cheap car, more power to you.
Article mentions the number of Civic Hybrids sold in 2007... I own a 2006 (received at the end of 2005).
The count for 2007 was a little over 32,000... but I'm pretty sure when I bought my 2006, they told me only 40,000 were made for US distribution. Just made me wonder a bit about the number... maybe it's low because of lack of availability??
I had mod points I was going to use for this discussion but they didn't have a 'not true' option.
DOE Reserve Estimates
The reserve numbers keep going up because they keep finding more and more of the stuff and nobody is burning it.
Natural gas is a very good option, in fact the best option for internal combustion. All combustion reactions produce CO2 and H20. Natural Gas (CH4) only releases CO2 and H20 upon combustion...no other chemicals like sulfur, mercury or other similarly nasty chemicals to have in the air. It's a big improvement over petroleum-based fuels.
No, there's plenty of natural gas. Known reserves worldwide are about 172 trillion m^3. One m^3 of gas has about as much energy as one liter of oil (38.4 MJ/m^3 vs 38.6 MJ/l).
So 172 trillion m^3 of gas is the energy equivalent of about 172 trillion liters of oil = 1.47 trillion barrels of oil.
Worldwide oil consumption is about 80.29 million barrels per day, or about 30 billion barrels per year.
So if we could instantaneously convert all our oil consumption into natural gas consumption, the known gas reserves would last us 49 years. There's plenty of gas.
The problem with natural gas is its extremely low volumetric energy density. That makes it expensive to store and transport. It's such a hassle that a lot of oil wells (especially offshore) simply burn any extraneous gas which comes up with the oil, instead of trying to capture and store it. The 3600 psi CNG tank in a Honda Civic GX CNG takes up most of the trunk, and only provides as much energy as 8 gallons of gasoline.
My 2002 Prius probably cost me more than a comparable non-hybrid car would have. But I love my hybrid -- and the reasons have nothing to do with economics and everything with being a nerd.
1. I drive the most advanced and highly engineered car on the road today (well, other than other hybrids). The engineering in my Prius is far more advanced than anything BMW or Mercedes throws into their cars.
2. I can drive silently on electric power only. Do you have any idea how cool that is? The freak'n car shuts off at traffic lights! If I go gently on the gas, I can drive 30/40 MPH on electric only and the car is SILENT!!! So freak'n cool. I've been dreaming of electric cars since I was a kid -- and I now have one (sorta)!
3. I feel good about having supported a fledgling environmentally beneficial technology with my dollars. My purchasing decision in 2002 played a part in revolutionizing the car culture in this country and the world.
4. Nerdy chicks dig Priuses.
5. I drive a damned reliable and cheap to operate automobile that I enjoy driving.
In short -- economics was largely irrelevant to my decision. Instead of buying a sports car (also generally an economically irrational decision), I decided to go the hybrid route. Actually, when I analyzed purchasing the car, I conservatively assumed that I would get 60,000 miles from the car before it started falling apart or incurred expensive repairs. I also assumed that the car would have no re-sale value, as I expected the technology would be largely obsolete by the time I went to sell it. Even with these "worst-case" scenarios, I bought the car because it was worth it to me to be part of the revolution.
Of course, I'm now well over 60,000 miles and have had no troubles, but that's not really the point, is it?
Further proof that people by hybrids to "make a statement" rather than "to save money." Basically, it's an e-peen enlarger.
It was obvious to me why Honda supposedly "dropped the ball" as the original article wonders about, each Insight they sold was at a loss, and they weren't likely to ever recoup the costs. Better for their competition to have more demand for such a product.
Sure their investment paid off in other ways, and they were still the first with a production hybrid (which was more efficient than the Prius) and now have the most hybrid available models I believe.
I only wish they'd make more of them as plug-ins or fully electric instead of requiring all that gas.
Of course, I also wish they'd bring the diesel Honda's to the US market, which would be much nicer than a hybrid and better mileage than a Prius at least.
4. Nerdy chicks dig Priuses.
Just FYI- if you are referring to more than one Prius the plural is Priuii
This is purly off hand, but i drive a 2001 Golf but one of my friends has a prius. We have both come to the conclusion that a hybrid is only sensible if you live/drive in town. I live out in leafy surrey and given the runs we do i get the same MPG as he does (44MPG ish). Now obviously this is different in town where my fuel economy goes down and his goes up. I guess the point im desperatly fumbling to make is that these hybrids can be worse than a normal ICE if they are (i wont say missold) sold to people that will see no benifit from switching.
Well, Bart, your uncle Arthur used to have a saying: "Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out."
Aside from no mention of a plug-in hybrid, when are we going to get some full EV cars from the manufacturers? For my commute I don't need a fossil-fuel burning car at all, plus EV cars are inherently more reliable with far fewer moving parts, no spark plugs, no oil changes ever, etc. Almost no maintenance at all. Which, it would seem, is the problem, as manufacturers makes tons of money from parts and maintenance.
If they can put out a small EV that has an 80 mile range, that would be more than enough for me. And they can - GM did it years ago with the EV-1. Surely with todays tech they can put out an affordable car that has similar range, and, for more money, much longer range if you want it, but most people don't need such range at least for a second car.
EVs wouldn't be for everyone, but they would definitely be good for many of us. I really hope I can keep my 1997 Escort running until we finally see an EV from some manufacturer, as I really don't want to spend any money on another gasoline powered car for me, hybrid or not. If they don't, my only other option would be to pay for or do a conversion myself. The big problem with that is we don't have the best technology available to us at an affordable price and usually you convert a really old car. We need the manufacturers to build EVs because they can build them in quantity, get the costs down and the technology in our hands.
--- What?
The problem with natural gas is that there's not enough of it. The biggest reason for the rise in electric tariffs in the early part of the 2000's was largely because everyone built natural gas power plants, and, they more or less used up all the natural gas. Now you want to go and build natural gas cars... good luck getting natural gas.
Isn't that why Mr. Pickens is suggesting that we adopt wind power on a large scale? I saw one of his interviews and he advocated using wind to displace natural gas for electrical production so that our natural gas resources can go into the transportation sector.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
$10000 difference? This cars projected price is $19K. So you must have went with something cost in $9K. What would that be?
The only thing close seems to be stripped down Chevy Aveo.
Why can't they make more 'green' cars that look svelt like the Tesla? At a reasonable price.
Well if you want a Tesla-like car, you'll have to hire Lotus to design it for you, which won't be cheap. And to meet modern safety standards, you'll have to use different (and expensive) construction methods and materials.
Otherwise you can go with the usual design process of the big automakers:
1. Someone who's had the creativity systematically beaten out of them draws up a decent looking but still somewhat bland and and forgettable design on paper.
2. The sketch is drawn up in CAD and goes through the dullification process. Any body lines are smoothed over, radical shapes homogenized, cool signature features of the car are removed in favor of something already in production (or easier to produce), nice proportionate wheels are swapped for the now standard golf-kart fuel-savers. To meet modern safety standards, the car has to be built like a tank, so A,B, and C pillars triple or quadruple in girth because it's too expensive to use honeycombed (unless it's a Subaru), triangulated or tubular pillar structures that wouldn't need to be the size of the frickin' Empire State building. The whole frame of the vehicle is beefed up and airbags are jammed in wherever possible.
3. An ugly, bloated, horrendously overweight jellybean of a car that bares only a slight resemblance to the concept sketch is produced. You yawn and never give it a second look.
People don't like cars that look too different, and won't buy cars if they can't compete in the safety arms race.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Torque yes, fuel efficient yes, quiet? You must be joking. Even the best diesel still sounds like a tractor compared to a petrol engine.
I see you haven't been to Europe. The last Diesel I rented in France had a problem - I couldn't tell by ear when the engine was on unless I completely turned off the fan. It was quieter than any non-hybrid/electric I've heard in America, too. Not to mention getting 50 mpg for 90 mph driving and 40 mpg for city driving and having a pretty peppy engine.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
I bought a 2008 Camry Hybrid in January of this year. My car is eligible for $0 tax credit.
Since the 2008 Camry Hybrid only came out late last year, the maximum possible credit you are eligible for is $650... Not $2000.
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html
I also doubt you get 55 MPG in that thing, I get 43 on occasion, 36 most of the time in city driving. On the highway it gets 35 MPG. 2000/250 = 8 MPG.
Unless there were state tax credits involved, there is FUD at work here and this is NOT an informative post.
Allegedly the Audi diesel that won Le Mans a year or 2 ago was quiet enough that "you could drive it through a suburban neighborhood and no one would call the police".
I imagine it was quite powerful too.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
You forgot depreciation and federal tax credits. Consumer Reports ran the numbers this month and came up with several hybrid cars that will save money over their non-hybrid equivalents. These were often the same model of car for a true apples-to-apples comparison. They claim that many hybrids will save money after the first year.
There's a nice table of the results, but it's for subscribers. They calculate the total cost of ownership for a five year period, and they come up with $28,250 for the Prius and $29,750 for a Civic LX. The Prius costs $24,170 list and the Civic is $18,430. The Prius has the lowest 5-year total owner cost on the cart.
I think it's fair to assume that gas price inflation will keep pace with the return on a T-Bill, so the interest isn't going to help. It depends a lot on whether we elect another representative from the oil industry as Vice President, but that's a topic for another conversation.
4. Nerdy chicks dig Priuses.
This is all slashdot really needs to know.
I'm puzzled that people insist that the hybrid vs. non-hybrid choice is purely economics. When I buy gas, I'm sending money to Wahhabi terrorists who want to kill me, and oppressive regimes like Saudi Arabia. I am directly sponsoring torture, terrorism, etc. If I divert that expenditure to a hybrid vehicle, some of my money at least is going to paying for better engineering, and funding a program meant to lower our dependence on oil, and thus our funding of terrorism etc. No, I don't have a Prius. My '91 Subaru, with the $200 per month of gas I use, are sufficient for my needs. I have more money tied up in bicycles than I do in automobiles. But if I were looking for a new car, my eyes would be on the plug-in hybrids. I wish I weren't so convinced that the major automakers and petroleum companies are sabotaging the development of electric cars. Yes, I've watched "Who Killed the Electric Car." Pretty nauseating.
The Prius features the raindrop design,
The Prius features a modified raindrop design
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I own an 07 Prius. You can really feel the drag coefficient when you coast. The thing will coast just about forever.
On my commute home, I jump off the freeway and up an off-ramp hill to my neighborhood. One of the things I like to do is to take my foot off the accelerator at freeway speed a ways before the ramp and see how far up the hill I can coast.
It's really a bizarre sensation. I usually can make it all the way at a decent speed and still have to use the brakes. It almost feels like you're sliding on ice. It's the kinetic->potential energy loss going up the hill that does most of the slowing of the car, not the wind and friction losses. And you can feel it. It's unearthly. It gives you the sensation that some invisible force is pulling you up the hill. Because you're so used to other cars slowing down much faster in similar circumstances.
The Prius really feels like you're driving a solid piece of magic sometimes.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
as that used by gasoline engines (the Otto Cycle)
For that matter, the Otto cycle isn't the most efficient for spark engines either. The Atkinson cycle, having a power stroke longer than the compression stroke, can be more efficient.
Though I don't think that that efficiency increase would be restricted to gasoline engines - it could also be utilized with a diesel engine.
Then again, I still remember reading about high-efficiency two stroke diesel engines should be able to meet emission standards without much effort. They use a turbocharger to flush out waste gases at the end of the cycle with fresh air, and no fuel is wasted(the major reason for fuel inefficiency and pollution with two stroke gasoline engines) because diesel isn't injected into the chamber until the end of the compression cycle anyways.
Could probably do this with gasline, you'd just need a diesel type injector for each cylinder.
I don't read AC A human right