A History of the Xbox Red Ring of Death Fiasco

VentureBeat has a lengthy story about the situation surrounding the Xbox 360's "Red Ring of Death." It starts with the developmental phases for the 360, looks at the marketing decisions that drove Microsoft to aim for a release ahead of the PS3, and talks with sources and engineers within Microsoft about what could have been done to prevent the problems. Quoting: "Leading up to the launch in the fall of 2005, the number of defective units would soon grow to tens of thousands. Any other consumer electronics company would likely have postponed a launch with such low yields. But Microsoft had more money in the bank than anyone else. The decision this time would fall to Bach and Moore. The costs of launching with low yields -- where you take big losses on every product sold -- could bankrupt other companies. But Microsoft could afford to do so. Microsoft did delay the launch date from October until November. But some inside the company still believed returns would be out of control."

Comments

Right on time

[Anonymous Coward]

How timely seeing as I just got mine....WHY????

Dumping? Loss leader?

[suck_burners_rice]

I'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?" Wtf? It's especially clear in this case, when you have orange rings of death and whatnot, that the purpose is to bankrupt the competition by selling yours for less. By the time someone spent their Christmas money on one product, they won't buy the other. Hence, dumping.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Scaba]

Have you tried Googling the word "dumping"? Because the first link explains it.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?" Wtf?/quote

As I recall, 'dumping' is when you sell a product considerably more cheaply in one country than in another. For example: If Sony sold the PS3 in the US for $200, but the equivalent of $700 in Japan, that'd be 'dumping'.

Hopefully for both of us, my memory is correct. ;)

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[moderatorrater]

As I understand it, the difference is that a loss leader can legitimately expect to make money indirectly from the sales. Walmart can afford to sell its most popular items at a loss so that other items can be sold for a profit. Microsoft does this with the XBox, where they sell the XBox in an attempt to get more sales for their software.

Dumping, on the other hand, is selling at a loss so that you can drive the other company out of business and then raise the price of that same item.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Awptimus Prime]

Another alternative term to "dumping" is explained, in much greater depth, by googling "2girls1cup".

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[nascarguy27]

"If a company exports a product at a price lower than the price it normally charges on its own home market, it is said to be "dumping" the product." --from Wikipedia

"A loss leader...is a product sold at a low price to stimulate other, profitable sales." --from Wikipedia

The XBOX is a loss leader because people will buy it at its cheap price, then people will want to play the XBOX. Those people will be required to buy games. The games are high margin products. Microsoft makes both so it's all good for them. It's just like with printers and ink or razors and blades. Microsoft would be guilty of dumping the XBOX if they sold the XBOX in say Europe for 20 USD, which I don't think they do.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[tedu_again]

If Microsoft then doubled their prices after Christmas, it'd be dumping.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[kesuki]

I'll explain the difference, Dumping is when a company sells a product below cost to bankrupt their competitors.

Loss leaders are when a store sells a product below what they pay to draw in consumers and get sales.

Clearly the video game industry is rife with corruption and 'Dumping' primarily because hardware makers can subsidize the price of a console with license fees from game developers.

depend on 'dumpers' like Microsoft to have some very complex bookwork, and possibly some Chinese shell corporations to sell high priced parts significantly below cost, but only to Microsoft.

there are lots of ways electronics can be sold below price, specifically cell phones and satellite TV boxes, which come with service agreements. but in the cell phone market, you're not locked into a single phone, although each cell provider has their own line of phones... most big players have models for each provider, except in cases where they get more money to be 'exclusive' to AT&T (like the iphone) etc.

some of this stuff is illegal in many places, but as i said shell corporations are shady and hard to stop. because billionaires often engage in venture capitalism, it's not hard to 'invest' in a shell corporation that's going to go into an exclusive contract to say, sell 40 million $40 dollar parts at $1 a part, and have the initial VC funding of say 40 million dollars, while 'your buddy' makes a cool million cash etc... then let the company go belly up, or keep using the same shell corporation with additional rounds of VC funding...

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[kesuki]

doh the math gods kill me again, 40 million $40 parts is more like 1.6 billion dollars. ah well, the general concept is still there.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[kesuki]

the thing is, while Microsoft does make games, it's the 3rd party licenses that get the lions share of the market. yeah i know there are usually some form of a fee for being officially licensed. but who knew rockstar games was going to be game when GTA 1 came out and sold hugely?

because of anti dumping laws very few consoles have ever been sold below cost, although there is some question as to if those companies didn't play the 'shell' game, of using VC as a front to create one time part supplier 'shell' corporations to avoid having books that show them selling parts below cost even though they did...

oh and if you're wondering, in the USA a USA company cannot be convicted of dumping. so microsoft can't be prosecuted for dumping, while sony and nintendo as foreign corporations can be sued.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[lysergic.acid]

i don't think that is what's usually meant by 'dumping'.

although it does seem to primarily refer to predatory pricing in the context of international trade, it's not when you sell something cheaper in one country than in another. it's simply when a product manufactured in one country is being exported to another country at a price below cost or below the market value in its home market.

as with most forms of predatory capitalism, its legality is fuzzy and often what one nation preaches is not what it practices--particularly western nations which like to tout the virtues of "Free Market" capitalism, such as the U.S.

so if a U.S. corporation wanted to dump products on another nation, they would condemn any protectionist policies which might oppose these actions. but simultaneously, if another country wanted to dump products in the U.S. which competed with domestic industries with powerful lobbies, antidumping petitions would be filed with the Dept. of Commerce.

things like 'fair value', or the difference between 'dumping' and selling a 'loss leader', are entirely subjective. they're simply used in whatever way most benefits a given group.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[ucblockhead]

If the XBox 360 was an attempt at dumping, then it was a completely failed attempt. But given that in the console market, selling the console below cost and making the money up on sales is the historically common way to do things, it's more reasonable to believe that they were selling it as a loss leader like everyone else. This is certainly the way the PS2 was sold. It was a monster hit, and yet hardly drove either Nintendo or Microsoft out of the console market.

The remarkable thing about the current generation was that Nintendo was able to sell a console at a profit.

Beside, nothing shady is going on. Both Microsoft and Sony have been very clear about when they are selling at a loss.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[MightyMartian]

things like 'fair value', or the difference between 'dumping' and selling a 'loss leader', are entirely subjective. they're simply used in whatever way most benefits a given group.

Which is why we should make a single international standard, and then sell Bill Gates into sexual slavery!

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[larry bagina]

Almost every console is sold at a loss, at least initially. The Wii is one of the few exceptions.

The PlayStation 3's initial production cost is estimated to have been US$805.85 for the 20 GB model and US$840.35 for the 60 GB model.[69] However, they were priced at US$499 and US$599 respectively,[70] meaning that every unit was sold at an estimated loss of $250,[69] contributing to Sony's games division posting an operating loss of ¥232.3 billion (US$1.97 billion) in the fiscal year ending March 2007.[71]

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Kemanorel]

You do realize that Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo all receive a licensing fee or percentage from every game sold, yes? While they may make more money off 1st party games, 3rd party games still bring in a nice chunk of change as well.

You also might want to check the stories of each system when they first came out. There are plenty of indicators that both X-Boxes and at least the last two PlayStations were sold at a loss, and if not a loss, then a very minimal profit margin. Nintendo is the only system maker to consistently release systems at a healthy profit. Not a loss, nor anywhere near the break-even point, but a decent enough profit that they have some very fat stacks of cash on hand.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[2nd Post!]

Uh that is just two examples. How about the SNES, NES, Genesis, GBA, DS, PS2, PS1, etc?

I think you will find that the PS3 and Xboxes are the exception and not the norm.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[UnknowingFool]

But by your definition, Xbox is neither dumping or a loss leader as it does not make a profit overall. Sure the last few quarters it has managed to make a little bit of profit but overall Xbox is like $7 billion in debt as a product.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Ihmhi]

The XBox's game library is absolutely miserable, and always has been.

These are by no means all exclusives, but I'd like to counter that with:

GTA4
Viva Pinata
Assassin's Creed
Bioshock
Call of Duty 4
Devil May Cry 4
F.E.A.R.
Gears of War
Final Fantasy XI
Guitar Hero/Rock Band etc.

I'm just gonna stop there.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are 2 variables to understand. Average Cost (AC), and Average Variable Cost (AVC).

Your AC is your AVC plus your fixed costs averaged over the total number of units.

In very simple terms, selling between your AVC and AC is a loss leader, because you're still covering your unit costs, yet getting product on the market for add-on sales.

Selling below your AVC is unprofitable (ie: you would be in a better financial position if you shut down the company) so if it continues, it's generally expected that it's because you're trying to drop the market for a substitute product to force them to sell under an unprofitable demand curve.

It's actually a very complicated thing, and also tends to involve foreign market pricing, substitute/complimentary products, and many more complex variables, but that's the very short form.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uno
Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved
Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved**2
Carcassone
Lumines
Puzzel Quest
Zuma

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

IIUC, IIUC stands for "If I Understand Correctly."

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[CronoCloud]

You know, as a PS3 owner I envy these games more than the previous ones (which are mostly multiplatform) I'd love to have these on PSN.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate you now ...

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[electrictroy]

>>>Dumping, on the other hand, is selling at a loss so that you can drive the other company out of business and then raise the price of that same item.

I don't see the distinction. Sounds like classic Microsoft strategy to me. (They dumped Windows 1,2,3 below cost... and won the PC monopoly... so they could later sell XP and Vista at outrageous prices.)

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[inviolet]

I'll explain the difference, Dumping is when a company sells a product below cost to bankrupt their competitors. Loss leaders are when a store sells a product below what they pay to draw in consumers and get sales.

'dumping' has a specific meaning in economics, and it refers to the practice of selling product in another country at a price far below that country's local cost. This can happen when the seller's country gives him a subsidy that lowers his costs. Tariffs are used to counteract that. A nice example of dumping and tariffs is the ongoing US-Canada softwood lumber squabble. We are currently on version IV of the agreement now and it still ain't right.

What you called 'dumping' is actually called 'predatory pricing'.

Dumping can be done as an act of predatory pricing, but not necessarily.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Handover Phist]

things like 'fair value', or the difference between 'dumping' and selling a 'loss leader', are entirely subjective. they're simply used in whatever way most benefits a given group.

Which is why we should make a single international standard, and then sell Bill Gates into sexual slavery!

I dont think theres much of a market for that...

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[No Grand Plan]

That's a relief. I was expecting something very NSFW.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

(S)He's right. I have sigs turned off and I can still see it.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[larry bagina]

This practice is commonly used with video game console makers that sell their console units at very low margins, or even at a loss, to achieve a higher market share. They rely on profits from software sales where the markups are considerably higher. They also receive licensing fees from third party software companies. Microsoft has used this technique with the Xbox and Xbox 360. Sony has done the same with the PlayStation 3 and its predecessor, the PlayStation 2. Nintendo's Wii is sold at profit, however, owing to its less powerful CPU and lack of DVD movie support. Typically, as a console ages, the price of its constituent parts drop. Console manufacturers can use this to either generate a profit per unit, or to fund a price drop, which may make the console a loss leader once again.[6][7]

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[toddestan]

That's not how it worked at all. Microsoft wouldn't have been able to survive selling it's products at a loss for years, let alone making billions of dollars doing it. They got where they are with a combination of other questionable tactics, and targeting the most open computing platform (the IBM-compatible) with software that was "good enough". Furthermore, I don't consider XP and Vista to be outrageously priced either, unless your one of the types that thinks all software should be free.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[TrekkieGod]

I'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?" Wtf? It's especially clear in this case, when you have orange rings of death and whatnot, that the purpose is to bankrupt the competition by selling yours for less. By the time someone spent their Christmas money on one product, they won't buy the other. Hence, dumping.

They're only "dumping" if their business plan doesn't indirectly profit from the sales, thus compensating for the losses in consoles.

For example, if I'm a gas station across from another gas station, and I start selling gas at $1/gallon in order to get the other gas station to fold, I'm dumping. I'm just losing money, no part of my business plan makes any money back. It's not a "loss leader" for anything else.

However, with videogame consoles, neither sony or microsoft are losing money in their videogame division. Yes, they lose money on the console sale, but they make tons of profit with sales associated with the console. Once you have an xbox, you need to buy games for it. You'll likely pay for an xbox-live subscription, you might buy movies at their media store, etc. Same for sony, minus the live subscription.

Basically, their business plan is sustainable, even if the other company doesn't fold (and it won't, because they are all making a profit). That's actually good for customers, because their competition on price means we get cheaper consoles. The loss leader thing is actually the free market working, not a way to bypass it like dumping.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[debruce]

- suppose a car company has a monopoly in Oceania

- it has a monopoly, so the profit-maximizing price in the home market is above the marginal cost

- in other words, you build a $5b plant, each additional car costs $5,000 to make, you sell them for $10,000. Sell 100,000 cars, make $500m on your $5b investment.

- if you cut the price $1000, you would sell more cars, but the profit would shrink on every car, so you maximize profit by keeping the price $10,000. If there were competitors, they would cut prices to compete for market share, but this is a monopoly so there's no reason to cut the price.

- suppose you have capacity to make 200,000 cars. Now you turn around and sell additional cars in Eurasia for $6,000. You're still making $1,000, but only because the home market is paying for your plant, and that price makes it uneconomical for Eurasia to build its own car plants.

- Depending on your point of view, Eurasia slaps anti-dumping duties of $4,000 on each car to eliminate market distortions. Or car companies and labor unions employ lobbyists to eliminate competition and screw consumers by slapping $4,000 per car 'anti-dumping' duties.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Uh that is just two examples. How about the SNES, NES, Genesis, GBA, DS, PS2, PS1, etc?"

Small nitpick: The PS2 was sold at a loss, too. The only person arguing with that is 'Gord' and his 'evidence' is highly questionable.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

"If a company exports a product at a price lower than the price it normally charges on its own home market, it is said to be "dumping" the product." --from Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]

That's a stupid definition. If the market you're selling in won't pay the same price as your home market, you *have* to cut your prices or you won't sell anything.

Things like dumping are just invented by protectionists to justify protectionist laws and discourage free trade.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't google 2girls1cup as it is disgusting.
Even the text description will make you want to vomit.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Dogtanian]

It's just like with printers and ink or razors and blades.

What's the deal with the razors and blades cliche? Nowadays they typically sell the handles with a couple of blades for UK £4-6 (around US $7-11 inc. VAT/sales tax).

That's not a major ripoff, but it's not especially cheap either. I mean, the "razor" (i.e. the handle!) is just a piece of metal with some rubber grips and a plastic blade attachment. They can't cost that much to make. If they weren't generally one-off purchases, I'm sure they could make pretty decent money by selling these kits alone.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[petermgreen]

Well sega has been killed off as a console manufacturer and afaict nintendo have survived only by making a sideways move (leaving the traditional "console with best graphics" game and creating what is essentially a completely new market that they dominate).

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[electrictroy]

Microsoft routinely undercut other IBM-compatible OSes, thereby driving them into extinction.

They did the same with WordPerfect, Lotus, and so on.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[draco664]

What's the deal with the razors and blades cliche? Nowadays they typically sell the handles with a couple of blades for UK £4-6 (around US $7-11 inc. VAT/sales tax). That's not a major ripoff, but it's not especially cheap either. I mean, the "razor" (i.e. the handle!) is just a piece of metal with some rubber grips and a plastic blade attachment. They can't cost that much to make. If they weren't generally one-off purchases, I'm sure they could make pretty decent money by selling these kits alone.

Grow a beard.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[Anonymous Coward]

merely being cheaper isn't dumping.
Deliberately selling at below cost to drive someone out of the market is dumping.

It's difficult to quantify the "cost" to Microsoft of a copy of Windows, so it's pretty hard to claim that they engaged in dumping.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[MikeBabcock]

In "loss leader" situations, a product is always sold at a loss to encourage another sale (or sales). You sell milk at a loss to sell other groceries, or a console at a loss to sell more games for profit.

In "dumping" situations, a company sells a product for a profit, and then has so many left over from either cheap or bulk production that it can simply "dump" leftover product on another market at such a low price that it puts competitors out of business. For example, there's a state in the US (can't cite it right now) that throws out more eggs a year than Canada consumes, and could simply ship excess product to Canada at a penny a carton and still make money, but put the entire Canadian egg farming industry out of business in the process.

If the next xbox is sold for $100 a piece to put Nintendo out of business, you can expect the lawsuits.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader?

[2nd Post!]

You still haven't answered my question; the PS2 is currently profitable though it may have started as unprofitable. Your post only expands your point to four systems: Xbox 360, XBox, PS2, and PS3. Everything else thus far has been sold for a profit.

Cue MS Apologists

[Anonymous Coward]

In 3, 2, 1 ...

Collapse?

[Elektroschock]

What if the company is just facing the domino effect of collapse because their engineering and management does not work anymore. It makes me depressed to observe all this. They were unable to deliver VISTA in time. Customers and hardware suppliers actually hate VISTA.

They develop a game console with gigantic losses. They develop the next game console as a second choice. Maybe something is broken in their management of development. I mean look, where is the bugzilla server for the xbox?

Do you remember the story about the lawyer's letter to the parents of the baby killed by an Xbox fire?

But this Slahsdot post finally reminds us that Microsoft was never different. When we look back there is actually a history of autism in the company but it always paid off in the past. Like Napoleon, an insane leader who did every mistake but for some time he was quite lucky.

Re:Collapse?

[tedu_again]

Do you remember the story about the lawyer's letter to the parents of the baby killed by an Xbox fire? No, I had to look it up, but how is it relevant? And it wasn't a letter, it was a court filing, which I believe are pretty typical when you find yourself being sued.

Re:Collapse?

[Anonymous Coward]

Customers and hardware suppliers actually hate VISTA.

I hear Mojave their new OS totally rocked.

Re:Collapse?

[Anonymous Coward]

The article makes a military comparison as well:

"It reminds me of the German war machine just before World War I, as chronicled by Barbara Tuchman in the classic history book, âoeThe Guns of August.â The German generals were intent on keeping their trains on time; but the leaders overlooked their chances for stopping the war altogether. The Schlieffen plan called for them to strike first. Once the Russians and French mobilized, the Germans had to move into action. They marched off blindly into tragedy."

So if the XBox is compared to the German war machine before World War I, then the worst is still to come ... or is that not his intended suggestion.

Re:Collapse?

[Anonymous Coward]

But this Slahsdot post finally reminds us that Microsoft was never different. When we look back there is actually a history of autism in the company but it always paid off in the past. Like Napoleon, an insane leader who did every mistake but for some time he was quite lucky.

Hey now. The poor souls afflicted with autism have enough problems already. There's no need to insult them by comparing their acts to those of Microsoft.

Right on time ... for the price cut!

[antek9]

Maybe not in time for you, but seeing that another price cut for the 360 models is imminent, could be that an editor at Slashdot thinks that warning potential buyers is a Good Thing (TM), at last.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[Xzzy]

Too bad the reliability problems have been resolved.

Not to ruin the fun of a good old fashioned Microsoft bashing but the 360 has been fine since last fall. Sure it sucks it launched with so many problems, and I was as mad as anyone about it a year ago, but they made good and now we can concentrate on playing games.. which is the point of the whole thing.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to ruin the fun of a good old fashioned Microsoft bashing...

You wouldn't happen to weigh more than a duck, would you?

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[mc moss]

They haven't been resolved. Although the rate of RROD isn't as high as before (it was around 33% before), it still happens to the newer consoles.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[phayes]

Too bad you're wrong.

Microsoft is still recycling that enormous pile of steaming 1st gen 360s into the loop by sending them out as replacements for newer machines that die of RROD. So, you buy a newer 360 to attempt to avoid the problems that plague the older 360's but yours dies anyway (even the newer 360's have a failure rate of between 10% & 16%). You send it in to get repaired & you get a lemon back which will only last a year.

With a process like this, you know that the RROD problem is never going away until MS both solves the problem (failure rate < 3%) in a new Xbox design and stops sending out the ticking timebombs as replacements.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still waiting for my console to return from repairs. The born on date was last fall. So, no, the problems haven't gone away.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not Microsoft bashing. The reliability problem is real and still exists. For comparison, PS3's failure rate is around 0.02% according to the industry sources. That is even lower than Sony's Electronics division.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[Floritard]

I've always suspected the RRoD "fiasco" is really just an elaborate copy-protection technique. What better way to prevent your users from modding their consoles than continuously forcing them to mail their consoles back to you...

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[phayes]

The planned obsolescence view is interesting too. Over 5 years after I bought it, I still have & occasionally play my original Xbox. This will likely be impossible for a majority if 360 owners & we all know that 360 replacements will stop very soon after MS brings out a successor to the 360...

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[Floritard]

Actually, thanks to XBMC my original XBox has quite possibly gotten the most use I've ever gotten out of a game console. Maybe they're sore at what real innovation can do with their hardware.

And to be honest, if the 360 weren't so completely unreliable, I might have bought one just for the chance of an XBMC360 happening down the line.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[phayes]

I had the same intentions but I never used my xbox with XBMC as I found the fan noise too distracting/loud to make it worthwhile.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[sabre3999]

I've had my "Lemon" since launch and have had no problems whatsoever... which I suppose puts me in the upper 66% of consoles.

Or maybe it's that I took proper care of it, keeping it well ventilated and all. Many people are hard on stuff. Pretty much all of my buddies have 360's, and the only ones that have returned theirs were the ones that DIDN'T listen to the rest of us (stuck it in a closed cabinet and left it running for 3 days, moved it while it was playing, etc.) They're the same people who think they can overclock their PCs to 6GHz without having the expensive memory or an elaborate cooling system and then STILL shove them in their desk cabinet.

Just my take on the entire RRoD thing. I know the cause, and it is caused by a case of bad engineering... but if you treat your consoles like you'd treat your Ferrari, it wouldn't overheat and break the solder points. To me it's just plain common sense to keep it ventilated.

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[phayes]

I wish you luck with your 360, but from everything that has come out on the bugs MS left in the first 360's I suspect that only a small minority will make it to the age of my Xbox without RRODing. A colleague of mine has a Ferrari. The only reason it's still running is because he spends 10 times what he does on his other cars in maintenance (he doesn't mind as it's his passion). Sounds alot like what is needed to make the 360 work, and while that kind of effort is deemed worthwhile by some, they are a distinct minority...

Re:Right on time ... for the price cut!

[sabre3999]

I suppose you do offer a valid point... I know plenty of people who ignore minor problems until they develop into major ones. Making sure my electronics are in a suitable environment is second nature to me, though I can definitely acknowledge that this isn't necessarily true for everyone. Especially those not willing to put the effort into it so it lasts.

Perhaps Honda or Toyota would have been the better choice for an analogy. If you keep up with the maintenance those things will run forever. Or at least the older ones do.

Pretty awesome that your buddy has a Ferrari, by the way. I hear the clutches on those things only last like 5k miles due to the power they put out. Even still, I'm like your buddy. When I hear the roar of the engine, I know it's worth the cost. Now if only I could afford one :-p

Unnecessary but valid gripe about the summary

[Samantha Wright]

Wait, what? You mean the evil old space-shuttle-sized black toaster had the red ring of death problem just like the sleek new 360? Oh, wait, you just forgot to put "360" anywhere in the summary. Or the tags. Or the category icons. Good job, guy(s).

Re:Unnecessary but valid gripe about the summary

[moderatorrater]

I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment that it's a valid gripe. 99% of the people who are going to read this slashdot article have heard about the RROD fiasco already because it's been covered many times before in many places (including slashdot). In addition, the original XBox isn't worth any screen time at this point, since the 360's been out for a few years now.

Re:Unnecessary but valid gripe about the summary

[Tink2000]

Yeah, just like when we say "Playstation" we always mean "PS3", because the PS2 has been long dead.

that's Microsoft

[ILuvRamen]

It's kinda like their software. They know it doesn't work and has glitches and will crash and they release it anyway. I'd list examples but it's basically all software they've ever written. When people made games for the N64 there was no patching. They tested it until it was basically perfect and then released it because a crash glitch was unacceptable. These days companies like Microsoft can change it from beta to release whenever they feel like it's just barely stable enough to work most of the time. It's all because they want their money now. Okay, I gotta list one example. Windows ME!

TFA is written by nitwits

[moderatorrater]

The future profits that the company once hoped for are now likely to wind up in Nintendo's pockets.

Right, just like a defective Audi will drive people towards purchasing a Toyota Yaris. Nintendo and Microsoft aren't competing for the same market niche, and apparently the author doesn't realize that. The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming. Might as well say that peggle is taking sales from Half Life 2.

The XBox360 is getting a lot of negative press, but I think they made the right call by launching early. They've been able to displace a lot of the negative press by extending the warranty and making sure that people get their xbox's replaced. Also, the PS3 is too expensive and the controllers are crap; it gives an overall feel of not being worth the money. The mass exodus as exclusive titles left Playstation to go multi-platform says it all, really.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh god, what a delusional retard.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Naughty Bob]

You are wrong, at least with regards to my situation:

I wanted a PS3, but I've got about £1000 worth of PS2 games that I'm not about to give up on (my PS2 just gave up the ghost).

Having bought a cheap replacement PS2 instead of the backwards-compatible PS3 I'd have liked, I was not well disposed to Sony, so I look to the XBox-

Just too unreliable.

I now have a Wii, and love it, but would have probably been happier with a more powerful machine.

For me, both MSFT and Sony dropped the ball badly.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[CronoCloud]

I'm interested in why you didn't buy a backwards compatible PS3. Too expensive for you? Personally I held off on getting a PS3 as long as I could, wasn't till late 2007 that I began to think it was worth getting it in the near future. Then this year, my PS2 Linux kit HD started having issues, so I knew it was only a matter of time. I use mine for Linux, Oblivion, Orange Box, PS2/PS1 games and some media stuff.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Anonymous Coward]

"Also, the PS3 is too expensive..."

lol, $50 bucks more than a 360, doesn't sound like a jet engine, looks better along side your home theater equipment, replaceable HD, doesn't have a bulky external power brick and connects to your 1080p HD TV for watching Bluray movies. Okay, I'll pay the extra $50 bucks, thanx.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Ibn al-Hazardous]

The future profits that the company once hoped for are now likely to wind up in Nintendo's pockets.

Right, just like a defective Audi will drive people towards purchasing a Toyota Yaris. Nintendo and Microsoft aren't competing for the same market niche, and apparently the author doesn't realize that. The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming. Might as well say that peggle is taking sales from Half Life 2.

And how, oh how, will MS reach its explicit goal of selling 75 million units without reaching the casual gamers? Their strategy is to get the hardcore gamers first, and then move on to the casual gamers. But since the casual gamers is the much larger and more profitable niche, it will be a failure for MS if Nintendo captures them first - which they certainly seem to be doing well with.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[frenchbedroom]

Score 3, Troll ?

My hat's off to you, sir.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Chuck Chunder]

Nintendo and Microsoft aren't competing for the same market niche, and apparently the author doesn't realize that.

Utter rubbish.

While different consoles do have features that reach out to different niches there remains a huge area of market overlap in which they compete.

If the Wii didn't exist would MS have sold several million more 360s? Of course they would.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Naughty Bob]

Too expensive, correct- I'm rarely an early adopter, save for a few specific subsets of gadgetry, and who knew they'd slowly lose functionality, rather than gain it?

On a side-note CronoCloud- How did you play Oblivion on a PS2?

(Lastly, thank you mods for the +3, Troll above- I feel I've finally arrived)

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[electrictroy]

>>>The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming

If you define "hardcore" as "boring and overly complicated" then you hit it in one. I don't own any of these consoles, but I am leaning towards Wii because it returns gaming to its primary purpose - fun. It's like a return to the classic-era Nintendo, Sega, and Atari consoles, and it's probably the reason Wii rose to #1 worldwide.

I don't find much fun in reading esoteric manuals & memorizing complicated commands (as is often the case with my recent PS2 purchases) (especially when those games revolve around non-real fantasy junk). Studying a bunch of manuals and key commands feels more like MY DAY JOB rather than a fun diversion. I'll take the "twitch" adrenaline-filled Wii game instead.

If that makes me "casual" in your eyes, so be it.

Troy (gamer since 1977)

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[toolie]

During quiet moments in cut scenes and movies, my PS3 is only slightly less loud than the 360.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the Wii is competing for everyone.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[UnknowingFool]

Right, just like a defective Audi will drive people towards purchasing a Toyota Yaris. Nintendo and Microsoft aren't competing for the same market niche, and apparently the author doesn't realize that. The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming. Might as well say that peggle is taking sales from Half Life 2.

While the Wii and the Xbox appeal to different segments of the gaming market, it's a false dilemma to say that a gamer can't purchase both or has to choose between consoles. Unlike an automobile, buying more than one console is within the reach of most people financially. If the Xbox still has issues, some hardcore gamers may wait and buy a Wii in the meantime. Just because a gamer is hardcore doesn't mean he won't play casual games. On the other hand most casual gamers don't feel that they play enough to want an Xbox or PS3.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Guppy06]

"Nintendo and Microsoft aren't competing for the same market niche, and apparently the author doesn't realize that."

Have you taken a look at Wii Ware and Xbox Live Arcade recently?

"The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming."

Yes, that's why Microsoft bundles their Xbox 360 with such hardcore games like Uno and Pac-Man CE, or why their memory cards come with 70-hour gems like Geometry Wars and Worms.

"The XBox360 is getting a lot of negative press, but I think they made the right call by launching early."

Maybe they're making more money on game licensing fees thanks to launching early, maybe they're not. But I don't think the people that are on their second, third, or even sixth Xbox 360 will be rushing out to buy Microsoft's latest and greatest the next time around. To say the very least, the launch of the Xbox 360's successor will be underwhelming for Microsoft, possibly to the point of making the PlayStation 3's launch look successful.

"They've been able to displace a lot of the negative press by extending the warranty and making sure that people get their xbox's replaced."

Except that the warranty famously is only extended for a particular error code. The new phrase of the day is red light of death, an error currently plaguing the Xbox 360 that produces only a single red light rather than three, for which Microsoft will not offer warranty service past the first year. And by many accounts, they're caused by the same factor: slipshod soldering that can't handle the thermal expansion from power cycling, only when it hits the GPU instead of the CPU it produces a different error code.

If the hardware failure issues of the Xbox 360 really is 'old news,' why is Microsoft still refusing to answer questions about it?

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Zosden]

I own all three of the consoles and I have to say I play my 360 the most.

First up is the the Wii. Sure it may be fun for a couple of hours, but after that it becomes very repetitive and to be honest boring. How much difference is there between all the mario karts or super smash bros. I will say I have found the Wii fit a unique exception to the repetitiveness Nintendo usually pushes out.

Now on to the PS3. Pros of the PS3 is the ability to install Linux onto the system and the ability to change the hard drive. Blu-ray is also a very nice feature to have, not only does it play blue-ray movies nicely, it also improves quality of regular DVDs. The biggest problem with the PS3 is the lack of UNIQUE games. Metal Gear Solid 4 plays identically to the others and I'm sorry, but boss battles were popular back on the days of Nintendo 64 and earlier. Metal Gear also has long cut scenes that can't be skipped and overall the game has very little replay value at all. Customers also have to buy a controller that includes a rumble pack (what is this the Nintendo 64). Games that I have seen that I liked were little big planet and the whole home idea is very cool.

The Xbox 360 has so many popular exclusives that if I ever get bored of one I can switch to another. Also the saying it fits like a glove should be changed to it fits like a 360 controller. Games that are multi-platform also look better on the 360 rather than on the PS3. I have no idea why this is, the PS3 should be able to hold higher res textures and everything because games to ship on a Blu-ray disc.

I hope this post has been informative and lets you see what somebody who has played all three of the consoles thinks about each one.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Anonymous Coward]

The 360 is cheaper out the gate, but they did it by stripping features or counting on add-ons. * Rechargable controllers - free on PS3, +$20 each with the 360. * Wireless Internet - free on PS3, +$100 with the 360. * Harddrive upgrades - off-the-shelf part for PS3, proprietary on the 360 ($180 for 120 GB - WTF) * Play online - free on the PS3, +$50/year on 360. Couple the higher failure rate of the 360, how friggin loud it is, the crappy points system on Live (doesn't even equate to 1-to-1 points to cash like at least the Wii), and any value Bluray may have for you, and all of the sudden the 360 isn't so much a great value. I don't understand why so much of Slashdot is tripping over themselves to "defend" the 360 and bash the PS3. ** DISCLAIMER - I own both.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[petermgreen]

at least here in europe they dropped the version of the PS3 with backwards compatibility. It can be purchased secondhand of course but they were never very common so the secondhand price is pretty high.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Wii didn't exist would MS have sold several million more 360s? Of course they would.

Really? They would have sold more, but but the Wii has a reputation beyond the traditional gaming community. Calling it a fad is probably the wrong word, but it definitely has a special place in the zeitgeist that wouldn't be there if it didn't exist.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[615]

If you define "hardcore" as "boring and overly complicated" then you hit it in one.

I own, or have owned, nearly every Nintendo system, including every flavor of Game Boy, and a Virtual Boy that I still play from time to time. September of '96, I called my best friend to _listen_ to him unpack and play his N64 for the first time, since I had to wait for mine.

The Nintendo Wii is the _only_ system I've ever waited in line for on launch day. I bought one for my little brother, and helped convince at least two people to buy one. I own most games worth having on the Wii, my favorite being Metroid Prime 3: Corruption (the controls are fantastic--it's tough to go back).

Having said all that, I can no longer side with the Wii apologists. There is _something_ about the Wii, about Nintendo's New Strategy, and it goes beyond games being "light" and "fun" as opposed to "boring and overly complicated". I can't put my finger on it, but here is a fact worth mentioning: My 360 gets _way_ more play time--whatever mood I'm in. I want a quick distraction, I play Geometry Wars. Immersion? Half-Life 2, BioShock. Adrenaline rush? Geometry Wars--I mean UT3. Intellectual stimulation? Portal, Braid... All of which are available in HD.

On the Wii I play mostly GameCube and VC games. Which, by the way, the Classic Controller sucks. The tether, the Z button placement, the lack of rumble--it's a poor controller from a company that knows better. WiiWare has so far failed to impress me. Xbox LIVE Arcade has a bigger selection, a better selection, and is so much easier to purchase from. Online connectivity for Wii games is limited or awkward (Geometry Wars: Galaxies' leaderboards! Ugh!). Nintendo really dropped the ball there.

There's a difference between "simple", and "watered down"--or "casual", and "half-assed". To an extent, Nintendo is appealing to gamers who don't know any better. Like people who have never tasted real whipped cream, and can't imagine that it's any better than Cool Whip.

If you love gaming, especially classic-era gaming, get a 360. (Well, you might wait until the next hardware revision. ;-))

My 2c,
615 (gamer since 1981)

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[MikeBabcock]

Doubtful. Many people own both.

The Wii will never be a FPS powerhouse, its just not possible, nor would Microsoft have probably ever made point-and-click games like the Wii's that appeal to this "new gamer" market.

The Wii certainly did not cut substantially into Microsoft or Sony's sales, I'd dare say most of the Wii sales were to people who already had or would purchase one of the other two major consoles, or to people who would never have otherwise bought a console.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[Chuck Chunder]

Doubtful. Many people own both.

What percentage do you think "many" is? I can only imagine it is very few. Only a minoriy of really dedicated gamers will buy multiple consoles in a generation, most people will buy one and stick with it until the next gen (or the console dies).

The Wii certainly did not cut substantially into Microsoft or Sony's sales

Certainly? I'd like to know how you justify that.
I know a fair few people who owned an Xbox/PS2 last gen and have a Wii (and only a Wii) this generation. That's only anecdotal but I can see no reason why there won't be a lot of people like that.

People seem to want to put games consoles in distinct little boxes but I see no justification for that in reality, doing so is a gross oversimplification.

Re:TFA is written by nitwits

[MikeBabcock]

xbox + ps2 is redundant -- they both carried very similar games.

xbox + wii is not redundant, nor is ps3 + wii

The Wii is a very unique beast, and I seriously doubt it will compete at any level with the other players in the market for their traditional markets and based on sales this year, it doesn't seem to have happened anyway.

Go ahead, compare this year's sales of PS3 and/or 360 units with the second year of sales for the PS2 or third year of sales for the original Xbox and see if the Wii is cutting into those historical sales figures.

Interesting timing

[daemonenwind]

I wonder at the timing of a Xbox-critical article on the exact day the latest price cut hits, bringing the Arcade version under the price of the Wii.

The first two questions to ask about any news story:
Why am I hearing about this, and why now?

It's amazing how much is revealed by these 2 questions.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, then, that it is still beating the shit out of the PS3. And that the PS3 is losing nearly every exclusive it once had, as third parties realize that they'll never get the audience that they would with the 360.

Go ahead and keep justifying your console-buying decision, though. The rest of us will just keep laughing at you.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true that many 3rd parties are releasing on both the 360 and PS3 now to help widen their audience. However, if you look the 360 doesn't exactly have a huge number of exclusives coming out, if you count them there are actually fewer exclusives coming out for the 360 than there are for the PS3.

You mention that the 360 will have a larger audience than the PS3, this should be true; however, recent multi console releases have seen less than one million units more sold on the 360 than the PS3, this is with the PS3 having 6 million units less sold to gamers.

So just like it doesn't make sense for 3rd parties to only release on the PS3, it also doesn't make sense to only release on the 360.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

I can also say that I know of multiple factual errors in this article. And I only am familiar with the details of a small part of what happened - which means that I'm sure there are many, many others in the article. I'm not saying it's all incorrect, but that I can't trust anything that's not independently corroborated.

Also, conclusions reported by contract game compatibility testers should be taken with a very large pile of salt.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that's the real question, isn't it? Why? The how and the who is just scenery for the public. [One ring, two ring, red ring, blue ring]. Keeps 'em guessing like some kind of parlor game, prevents 'em from asking the most important question, why? Why was [your XBox] killed? Who benefited? Who has the power to cover it up? Who?

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

"PS3 having 6 million units less sold to gamers"

You make yourself look like a fool using fanboy Vgchartz fake sales numbers.

The PS3 is only 4.5 or so million behind the 360 in installed base. Its been outselling the 360 worldwide by and ever increasing amount since just after the middle of last year.

Microsoft only shipped 2.3 million new console for the entire first six months of 2008. The 360 is on track to be passed in worldwide installed base just after the end of 2008.

Re:Interesting timing

[lanner]

Well, it does coincide with my personal experience of the Microsoft Red Ring of Death. My XBox 360, bought in late 2006 if I remember correctly, just died a few weeks ago and we recently got the replacement back. Adult-only home, well ventilated and treated properly.

Units will continue to die for years to come. For us owners, this problem will continue for a long time.

Most XBox 360 consoles before the recent hardware changes will die with unreasonably short lives. It's just a matter of time. It's a design flaw, not a manufacturing flaw.

Re:Interesting timing

[zoney_ie]

PS3 is doing just as well (if not better in Europe) taking the headstart of the 360 into consideration. It'll be with us a lot longer than the 360 also - should be as long lived as the PS2 (which is still selling).

And that's considering the PS3 is still quite a bit pricier than the Xbox360 - there are plenty of folks who would like a PS3 and are still waiting for the price to come down, or will get it this Christmas coming.

I'm happy with my sole recent purchase from the console manufacturers - a Nintendo DS. My Dell PC from 3 years ago (with two years on-site warranty left) still handles my main gaming requirements, albeit €150 spent on an X1950PRO 512MB last year.

I see little point to the latest consoles without HDTV screen, and for one that has almost as good colour/contrast as a CRT and true 1080i HD (not downscaling to arbitrary poor resolution), I would spend enough to buy *two* gaming PCs. Even the average HDTVs, many of which are "HD ready" with like 1024x768 resolution, are almost the price of a new PC!

Re:Interesting timing

[johannesg]

Funny, then, that it is still beating the shit out of the PS3.

Funny, but that's not what I see. Worldwide sales for the PS3 are considerably higher than for the XBox 360 at this point (source: VGChartz), and have been since the beginning of the year.

The XBox still has a lead thanks to its hasty launch, but that lead is slowly eroding. And you have to wonder: are all those broken units actually counted as new sales? I wouldn't put it past them...

Re:Interesting timing

[Splab]

Also, while he might laugh at our decision to buy PS3 (I just got my 80GB last week) - we can sit here laughing while he is in queue turning his Xbox in, hoping he only have to wait a couple of months to get his replacement.

Oh and we get to put Linux on our box.

Re:Interesting timing

[elrous0]

Ditto for me. My launch console finally RRODed two months ago. MS did fix it fast, though. Had it back a week later. Guess they're used to it by now.

Re:Interesting timing

[electrictroy]

>>>are all those broken XBox 360 units actually counted as new sales? I wouldn't put it past them...

Ironically that's the same question people asked about early PS2 units. Is the PS2 truly number one, or are the numbers inflated by the broken units counting as sales? Of course after the PS2 passed 110 million units, the whole question was moot. Even if you subtracted a million faulty units, that's still 109 million working consoles.

Probably the same will be true of the X360.

Re:Cue Apple Apologists

[timmarhy]

clearly you are new here.

Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[Frag-A-Muffin]

We've seen it time and time again, how Microsoft can afford to buy it's way into a market segment. I wonder if it will pay off in the long run, because it seems they've hit a saturation point with this product they have. Not much growth over the last product revision, and barely making a penny in the last few quarters (let's not talk about making up for all the loses to date yet).

With the stock price stagnant, how long can upper management convince shareholders that this is the right thing to do?

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[timmarhy]

i think MS entering the console market is the best thing that ever happened to it. look at the game selection and how the market has exploded since the xbox. so unless you own ms stock, why would you really give a crap if MS profits or not?

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude you need to check out Live! The growth potential of that is astronomical. If windows begins to flag, Live might save Microsoft.

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[Anonymous Coward]

"how the market has exploded since the xbox"

Please, you're just making a fool out of yourself.

There were only two massive console market expansions. The PS1 bringing console gaming out of the 50-60 million worldwide range up to 100+ million, and the PS2 with a similar leap to 140 million.

The Xbox marketplace failure was only 24 million worldwide. And the Xbox 360 is selling at an almost identical rate.

The console world was a very happy place before Microsoft made their unwelcomed and incompetent entry. Gamers will breath a sigh of relief when Microsoft returns to PC gaming. Which if you have been paying attention to Microsoft comments over the past six months won't be very long.

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[Dripdry]

It depends on emotion. if people *think* the stock is worth the price, they'll hold it or buy.
Apple is in the same boat.

I think MS is in a precarious position. If one of their bets doesn't pay off soon (XBOX, Vista, or otherwise) I think they will have a few people to answer to.

Lowering the price seems like a desperation move, although the system HAS been out for 3 years now.

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not really a fan of MS or the xbox, but MS is making a bit of headway into the Japanese market for the first time thanks to a recent Namco Tales game exclusive. That is a BIG developement and was not expected to happen.

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[NetNed]

Game selection? What games can be directly attributed to XBOX? Gaylo.... I mean Halo? Yea that's a real explosion there! Really, what games has X-BOX popularized that was exclusive? For most of the original X-BOX's run games usually got ported after PS2 and Gamecube already had them. I loved what X-BOX brought to the table each time, but really, It has never really had a killer app, regardless of how much Halo was marketed and pushed to no end. In the end, it had really nothing new to offer in a gaming experience.

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[timmarhy]

where did i say the xbox has had a killer app or that it's even the best in anyway? the point that has gone zooming over your head and the anonymous retard above you is that MS trying to muscle it's way into the sector has sparked some impressive competition

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[NetNed]

What? The competition that was already there? Sony, nintendo, and sega, to name a few where there long before microsoft forced it's way in. Your about 10 years off on the competition thing because it started in mid 90's when the playstation, N64, and short lived Saturn where around and continues to this day. That's what lit the flame, not MS's arrival. I wasn't saying anything to which system is better, because I think most, over the years, have had features that make them interesting. MS came in at the 11th hour to compete, and they have done pretty well considering when they jumped in to the fray. Their XBOX Live was something, but that would have happened on another system sooner or latter and the same can be said for HDD's in game systems. I just don't see them as a spark of competition because Sony employed most all the tactics Microsoft has used. Each have contributed equally to the competition but it would have been there regardless of Microsoft's entry to the console market.

Re:Proof that MS bought its way into this market

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe how naive slashdot is on this subject.

MS doesn't really care at all about the console gaming market. MS's long term goal is and will continue to be to put a MS computer in your home entertainment center.

They have done a much better job of this than any other company. They are in fact winning. Eventually they will fully leverage this and you'll all be wondering how MS ended up owning the "next gen" home theater.

Sounds a lot like what NVIDIA has happening...

[TheHawke]

...right now with their G84/G86 GPUs at the moment. They estimate their losses to be in the range of 100-200 million USD. Dell, HP, ACER, Lenovo, and other laptop makers are affected by this with no end, or resolution for the owners of the units containing the defective chips, including yours truly.
The failure rate has been measured in either weeks, months or years. Owners of the affected laptops have been buying extended warranties to cover replacement in the event they should fail.
Dell has acknowledged this issue but has given no solution either. The other companies have stayed mute on the matter. All of the Dell built laptops that have the faulty chips fail are replaced with laptops with the same GPU in them, no alternatives or options given to the owners.

Actually added to sales

[Anonymous Coward]

The red ring of death actually made more sales, you xbox dies, and while waiting for a new one, you go buy a 'spare' xbox!

+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[dindi]

My XBOX 360 dis 4 months ago and I bought a PS3, re-purchased all 6-8 games I play (mostly FPS team games, GRAW, COD, RS).

How do I feel? I feel like using Linux: it is better than windows, but lacking stuff. PS3 is superior (like linux) but it is lacking a strong community feeling like xbox live. It is also lacking the sometimes needed, but sometimes hated strong core (assholes) who play 600 hours a month to be the best in certain games. These are the guys who sometimes hate, but the ones who give a strong core. It is like when I used to race bikes. Many people hated us, but so many respected us that we kept the sport up. Well .... this is something I am missing from ps3.

The system is superior, the blueray is SUPER-DUPER, but I go online, 4 out of 16 have a microphone, and then 2 start team killing.

Bottom line: I am not buying a xbox because it will die on me, I am not getting a wii because I do not want to host family parties (nor play mario #122 or other kiddie games), and I keep my PS3 to play once a week (I pkayed XBOX 4 times 2+ hors a week)......

Well, maybe I just keep all that money I spent on games and spend it on my motorbike, and if I really want to shoot at people I just go and play paintball....

Dunno .... really, just opened a game coming from amazon (grid) and I realized, that without a strong online backing (like XB LIVE, whic I [prapaid for a year) any console is as good as a brick .....

Still I am with this shiny piece of shit, and the other white crap (xbox) is on the floor disassembled with a red ring of death ..... well .//... really I like games, but dunno where to go .....

Sony fanboy ? My siby canera developed a dead pixel after 2 weeks of diving (30+ meters, maybe one hard impacts). Local support SUCKS so much I never bothered to even try. While MS support is the WORST, and I use linux, than OSX (apple) for an operating system for the last 16 years) I rally wish anyone had such a cool service as xbox live.....

I guess ... hmm dunno ... can apple maybe make a console and make a service that costs but works, and then I do not have to rely on crap MS hw&sw and crap sony service?

OK I am complaining, but even being a gamer I am just trhinking of selling my ps3 and just forget about it till a quality console with a quality service comes along...

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[Anonymous Coward]

...can apple maybe make a console...

Well, yeah... but there still wouldn't be any games for it.

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[bigstrat2003]

I do not want to host family parties (nor play mario #122 or other kiddie games)

First off: Mario is not a "kiddie" game. It's a platformer, but that doesn't make it childish.

Second: Zelda, Smash Bros, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3, and Mario Kart are kiddie games? Damn, why didn't someone tell me?

Are you one of those gamers who defines "kiddie" to be "doesn't include lots of gore and/or swearing"?

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[Jorophose]

Consoles? Useless without online play?

I'm really feeling old. I remember visiting cousins just to play SNES/N64 games with them. =/

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[stuboogie]

Actually, yes. Any game that is rated E and is simple enough for the younger audience to play would be considered a "kiddie" game.

While many of these games are still fun to play, they provide a completely different gaming experience/style than the type of games the OP is talking about. So, while I like playing games on the Wii, the type of games I enjoy most are not targeted to that console.

Given a choice of a Wii or a 360/PS3, I would not select the Wii. I think that is the point he was trying to make.

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[Gulthek]

Any game that doesn't deal with adult themes or content is a kiddie game. Not that it's a bad thing.

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[magus_melchior]

It's the adolescent equivalent of "family-friendly". Some gamers don't speak political-correctese.

With all the bombs, smashing stuff, abuse of turtles and evil chestnuts/mushrooms, you'd think Jack Thompson would target Nintendo instead of Rockstar Games. But then, it's done with several doses of humor and Miyamoto-style wit, so no one is offended.

Well, except the turtles. How dare he strip search them.

But the blame should be placed on whoever designed the Gamecube (black/white should've been the first color), and all the companies who did nothing but contribute to the "Nintendo = kiddie" image by inundating the Gamecube, GBA, DS, and Wii market with ports of kids' television shows. You know, the actual kiddie games.

GP did say he didn't want to host gaming parties, so Wario, Sports, Smash Bros., and Mario Kart are out. Fair enough, but slapping the "kiddie" label on Nintendo's library is pretty hasty. What Nintendo does need, and I suspect this was a showstopper for him, is a team of networking people who can build a system that Nintendo can administer, but isn't prohibitively costly for those who join. Tie networking seamlessly into the Player 2-4 spots and synchronize displays between 2 Wii consoles, etc. A little late for this sort of design this late into the game, but I would bet that Nintendo is working to bring something like this to handhelds and home consoles-- that would redeem them for their silly and cumbersome "friend code" system that not many games use anymore.

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[dindi]

I define kiddie games like this:

There are colorful cartoon-like characters in the game who collect coins which hang in the air, and you are bouncing of huge mushrooms and your enemies are evil turtles and other cartoon animals, plants and persons.

It is similar to a psychedelic dream, except is is presented in a generally bad resolution and a low but vivid color palette.

Metrois prime is the only game that made me think of getting a wii until I saw the resolution and the graphics detail, which almost surpassed my 2001 released PS2 console.

Let me guess, you are happy with your WII. I do not like it because none of the games I would play are released for it, and because I think the graphics it provides is shit. Also because I know myself, and know that I am better off with a controller and I hate people in my house and I do not like to share my screen with anyone for anything, especially if they are weaving around little white controllers and screaming in high pitch.

Then again. You like your WII and I am honestly happy for you. I tried to play a new game I bought yesterday on my super high-end console, and I realized, that I did not like it. I realized that I am bored of all the games and all of it, because the thing lacks that community feeling.

This post was about mostly that, that there is the WII I do not like, there is the XBOX that is a POS and dies (but has the best online system), and there is the superior PS3, but only a bunch of idiots play it who do not care to get a headset, so the online play is not any better than playing alone at home against you CPU opponent ....

anyway, then again I did not want to offend anyone, you like whatever console you want and play whatever you want, and probably happier than I am with this expensive POS I hate to turn on lately.......

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[dindi]

I remember hosting lan parties at my house. We were playing anything and everything of the few that allowed to shoot each-other.

I also remember playing Quake and Counter Strike on a 56K modem.

Then remember playing on XBOX live with a bunch of strangers. Still community feeling and good laughs.

Then I go online (with the same games) on my PS3. It is worse that driving an ATV alone in the forest/desert (actually it is not bad, just a lonely activity).....

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[dindi]

The point of the post was, that while the xbox is a limited hardware, the whole experience of the xbox live system is really fun (for me).

However, that POS died on my, so I am here with a $500 dismantled box and peripherals, and 10 games ($600) as a waste. And I refuse to buy a piece of hardware that already died on me once because that is just stupid. I heard of people who have 2-4 xboxes, all which died.

On the other hand I took a quick view of other options, and mentioned that the WII does not interest me because my taste of games are not there. The thing is underpowered and can not run call of duty, GTA4 (just an example, I am not a GTA fan, even though I try every time, then get bored of it after a while) and/or support 16+ online shooters. I have limited time to play, so I prefer going online, shoot some people, then do my other things, not to play a story based game for 30+ hours. OK I finished metal gear solid and it took long, so there are exceptions, but like one a year.

Then I looked at the system I got when the POS died. It is the PS3. Superior design and quality. I know, that some people have things against sony, but I am happy with their amps and video components. I have a camera I use for diving from sony which also server the purpose, but it was the 1st and last sony camera I got. So I am not a Sony fanboy. I would also never buy a sony ericsson phone after I had one and it died on me..... (I have a Nokia I hate and an iPhone I love even though it lacks important functions) ....

So even though I love this superior console, I do not like the online experience. The idea of giving a headset with XBL is great, because everyone has a headset that works and people use it. Sony's idea of allowing any bluetooth headset is great in theory, but most headsets are designed for phone applications, so they die after a few hours of actual talk time, and they let all the noise in. This is especially true with shooter games, and is rather annoying. There is also static, disconnects, all the bad stuff.
Many people do not use a headset, making a tactical shooter -SHIT- of an experience.

Also XBL allows people to rate people, which takes care of team killing, offensive behavior and talk most of the time. PS3 lacks these, so you have to deal with assholes who cannot play, and so they go into a no-respawn 10 minute tactical game, and shoot you from the back at the spawn point and log off. Yes, this is annoying, and yes it happens on XBL, but then the person gets a bunch of bad reviews and it shows on his account......

anyway ... it is 4am in the morning, I just could not sleep and saw all these responses...

Then again, I did not want to offend any WII owners, I wish I enjoyed my superior expensive box as much as people enjoy the cheaper, lower performance little white cubes .......

And sorry for the kiddie comment again. I play tactical team shooters almost exclusively, so anything else for me is in the kiddie category.

Oh... I am not a killing or military freak at all, I do not hunt or kill anything (I am in fact a vegan), it is just my competitive self that finds enjoyment in fighting in a team against an other set of people.

I would also play a real WWII plane combat sim if it existed and was as good as Chuck Yeager's sim back in the old days....... but it is all about locking a missile on someone from 10 kilometers in a jet, then hear beep beep for 2 minutes and see a distant explosion .. -> not fun ...

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember visiting cousins to play Pong. And later, Atari 2600.

I remember rotary dial, and phones with cords, and rabbit ear antenna. Don't tell me about feeling old, you young whipper-snapper.

SNES, bah!

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[jonadab]

> First off: Mario is not a "kiddie" game. It's a platformer, but that doesn't make it childish.

Being a platform game doesn't make it childish, but that doesn't mean it isn't. The Super Mario franchise has always been aimed squarely at the underage market -- not really young children (that was Duck Hunt), but older children and perhaps younger teens. That doesn't mean there aren't adults who enjoy it. Of course there are. There are adults who enjoy playing Candyland and Mousetrap and any other children's game you care to name. But Mario is... a magical princess to rescue, mushrooms that make you grow, stars that protect you, enemies specifically designed to look goofy, most of which are animals or personified inanimate objects, wooden sailing ships that float in the air, and so on and so forth.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the XBox 360, though.

> Second: Zelda, Smash Bros, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3, and Mario Kart are kiddie games?

I would have classified Mario Kart as a kids' game. Not sure about Paper Mario, as I've never seen that one. Zelda is aimed at teens, Metroid at teens and young adults...

Note that I'm not agreeing necessarily with the grandparent post in its entirety. I'm only saying that the Super Mario franchise, specifically, is indeed aimed mainly at children.

> Are you one of those gamers who defines "kiddie" to be "doesn't include lots of gore and/or swearing"?

Heh. Scrabble is an example of a game that's geared for adults and contains no gore, and no swearing unless you choose to play those kinds of words. Bridge is mainly popular in the over-50 crowd, and contains no gore or swearing whatsoever (err, I suppose if you allow table talk you could introduce swearing that way, but it wouldn't be relevant to the game). Chess, though also popular with teens and some children, is mainly a game for adults, and the closest it gets to gore is when a piece is captured and removed from the board...

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is Il-2 series (Sturmovik, Forgotten Battles+expansion, Pacific fighters and Il2 Sturmovik 1946 including also a full pack of previous ones). No other sim series comes close in terms of WW2 combat.

PC-only of course. There will be a multiplatform console release in 1999, while the true sequel could be out by the end of the year.

For modern (though Russian-only) planes I suggest Lock On (and third-party expansions). Authors of it even develop military grade combat simulators.

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[thompson.ash]

Could you imagine if Apple did actually make a console...

They'd stick to their design trend so about half the buyers would be trying to pair the contoller with their AppleTV...

It'd be absolutely gorgeous but the software would fall under 2 categories...

1 - Poor ports of Microsoft games at 120% RRP
2 - Apple bespoke software... let's not talk price :D

Oh... and controllers... huge range, gorgeous design... £60 a pop!

And the OS would be (yet another) version of OSX so it would boot instantly, run forever but, in an iPhone-esque lapse of judgement, be missing a few vital features... probably the ability to load your save games...

And all this, believe it or not, from an Apple Fan!

Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy.

[MikeBabcock]

I like Zelda and Mario Kart and Mario. Those three games won't sell me a Wii, but maybe when its the price of a game itself I'll pick one up to play them.

I understand your frustration at the 'kiddie games' moniker though -- I hear the same thing when I tell people to play Ratchet & Clank on the PS3 (probably one of the best most beautiful games ever made).

Ah well, no accounting for some tastes.

Microsoft must have done something right

[nukal]

If you consider the number of AAA titles that are release exclusively for xbox, then it is pretty clear that MS must have done something right. My second 360 is now worshiping at the altar of the ring of death gods. My first went seven days after I purchased it, during a nonstop weekend of Gears, they replaced it immediately. I expected my second request for a replacement/repair to be shut down quick smart, but my 360 is currently undergoing a resurrection at MS HQ (or whoever they use in oz). It is ages out of warranty yet they are still happy to repair it. Nice one brother! People can bitch and moan all they like about how design defects shouldn't make it into production, but this shit happens. Whether it is because of a tactical decision or just sheer stupidity, doesn't really matter as long as they deal sensibly with the consequences. I can't fault MS's after market service, save for the dodgy Indian call centre experience. Now I loath IE, Office, XP and Vista is much as the next /.er, but the range of titles, the ergonomics of the 360 controller and the sheer enjoyment I have derived from my 360 means I will be a fanboy for a long time to come. It is a quality product, albeit executed poorly.

Re:Microsoft must have done something right

[Locutus]

didn't they go out and buy up a number of big game development houses? I know in the high end graphics market, they purchased SoftImage to get a Windows version. They forced them to do a port to Windows and tried to kill the UNIX version. Fortunately, those using SoftImage knew what a piece of crap Windows was and so the UNIX base would not purchase the Windows version and if the company wanted to not totally fail, they couldn't end the UNIX version. Microsoft eventually sold off SoftImage. Could be bull but that's what it sounded like happened.

Most likely the only reason a developer would do an exclusive on Xbox is because they were either owned by Microsoft or paid by Microsoft for that. The market for the PS2 and PS3 users dwarfs Microsofts Xbox market.

LoB

Re:Microsoft must have done something right

[antek9]

Good for you then, but I beg to differ, a 'poorly executed quality product' is something I would mod you Funny for, but certainly not something to be found in the real world.

Anyway, as long as you're happy with your 360, play it for the time it lasts you, but have you considered what will happen when your fourth or fifth model breaks down, three or four years from now? Personally, I expect my consoles to at least _try_ to survive for 10 years minimum, my PS1 still does fine for that matter.

Re:Microsoft must have done something right

[stuboogie]

"my PS1 still does fine for that matter"

Well, my PONG console is still going strong!!

I don't want to sit and watch a white dot bounce around the screen anymore though. :)

Good thing they're not getting away with it!

[PotatoSan]

Thankfully the average consumer is well-enough informed to boycott such a deeply-flawed product, thus preventing Microsoft from profiting off of this business model! I mean, can you imagine if they were selling millions of 360s, taking broken units back, and still making money?

Re:Good thing they're not getting away with it!

[Mobkey]

Maybe if Microsoft laughed at you when you called in to say your Xbox was faulty, then this would all be true. I bought my 360 knowing very well that it had these problems. I also knew it would be easily replaced. No harm done. I like the games, and just playing Wii or PC doesn't quite work for me. And yes my Xbox did break recently.

Re:Good thing they're not getting away with it!

[Locutus]

they are losing billions and a huge portion of the population doesn't even know what RRoD is. They have seen it but don't know it has a name. They wrote off billions last year to try and make this year look good but they will probably never make a profit on the product.

And really, the Xbox has been a failure for what it was intended to do and that is hold off Sony's PlayStation. The PS2 is out selling Microsofts Xbox360 in a big way and the PS3 is now at or around even with Xbox360 quarterly numbers. There are hundreds of millions of PS2s on the market and the PS3 is still moving up that ladder.

No wonder Microsoft is going to try and go back to building the PC gaming market. Once again, they'll use the marketshare of Windows because they can't compete AND MAKE A PROFIT with out it.

LoB

Re:Good thing they're not getting away with it!

[phayes]

There is more truth in your joke than you suspect once you leave the USA. Here in France as well as in Japan from what I've read, the reliability problems that the 360 has have caused people to boycott it or to choose the PS3 instead. Microsoft's policy of abandoning the Xbox (look at how Sony has continued to sell & develop games for the PS2!) also caused people to avoid it. With Microsoft's plan to bring out a successor to the 360 as soon as possible, it's easy to deduce that the 360 will be orphaned as well in a year or two.

I was one of the few people I know to have bought an Xbox in France (4 out of 40 households that had a console). I, & everyone around me avoided the 360 for the reasons given above & have either bought Wii's, PS3's or both, nobody bought the 360.

Re:Good thing they're not getting away with it!

[Anonymous Coward]

They're only making money because they wrote off over a $1 billion last year. That's like saying I make money owning my car after I write off all the costs of fuel and servicing associated with it.

Dumping versus loss leaders

[sjbe]

I'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?"

Dumping is a form of predatory pricing under international trade law whereby a product is sold below cost or below market value in the country of origin. Economists sometimes take a more general definition of dumping to mean any kind of predatory pricing but in my experience this is a less common usage. Dumping often occurs when a producer has excess capacity beyond what their home market can absorb so they sell the excess in a different market either to damage current/potential competitors or to gain market share.

A loss leader is basically a sales promotion. One product is sold cheaply (possibly below cost) with the expectation, but normally not the requirement, that customers will be enticed into buying additional more profitable product(s). The most famous version is the razors and blade model pioneered by Gillette.

The important difference is that a loss leader isn't necessarily destructive. With dumping there is no attempt at profitability, at least not in the short term. However predatory pricing in general, including dumping, can be very hard to prove. It's quite rare to have clear evidence that dumping is occurring. Furthermore in some countries (notably China) it's not unusual for the government to hold stakes in manufacturing firms. Naturally it is rather difficult subpoenaing records from a state owned Chinese manufacturer so you can sue them for dumping.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Tridus]

"now with the 360 they have taken on the reputation of having created the worst console in the history of gaming."

Can't say I agree with that. In terms of defect rate, absolutely. But if you have a working 360, it does a lot of things well.

more money than sense

[fermion]

MS just seems like the typical firm with money than sense, like the family who will come into a lot of money, then put a a statue that pees water by the pool.

For instance, it can't be that difficult to design an OS that works. Linux has done the basics, and it is free. Apple has done the GUI, with much less money than MS. Yet the best MS can do is a spend millions of dollars on pointless commercials. Is this because it has no idea how to fix the software? Is there no way to invest the 77% profit margin in making working products. Does it all have to spent on yachts.

And it is not rocket science to design a game console. We have had generations of them that worked very well. MS just jumped in and borrowed existing tech, then used the windows 77% percent profit margin to subsidize the costs. And the xBox 360 is the second generation product.

Of course, we must acknowledge that MS tried to design custom hardware, a task for which it has no experience. This leads to the question of why it couldn't just pay for someone to do it right. Oh yeah, the yachts.

People like to compare IBM to MS, and see MS slowing down, but then ultimately being successful like IBM. What people fail to realize is that IBM spent the money to make rock solid products. The Selectric was a damn near perfect machine. The big iron did their job. The IBM PC was bulletproof. I don't know how MS is going come out the other side of the desktop monopoly when Google moves all the customers to the clouds with a six nines failure rate, and MS is still living in a world where a four nines failure rate is acceptable.

Re:more money than sense

[Anonymous Coward]

I would think 99.99% downtime would be better than 99.9999% downtime.

Most people talking about 6 nines as favorable are talking about UPTIME.

Re:more money than sense

[HockeyPuck]

People like to compare IBM to MS, and see MS slowing down, but then ultimately being successful like IBM. What people fail to realize is that IBM spent the money to make rock solid products.

Actually, IBM went from being a hardware company to a services company. When MSFT helps you design, install and optimize competitive products like IGS does with setting up Solaris servers connecting to EMC disk arrays. Realizing that money can be made off of more than just software licensing, then they'll be successful like IBM.

Go read ex-CEO Louis Gerstner's book, it wasn't typewriters, the mainframe or PCs.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Says-Elephants-Cant-Dance/dp/0060523808/

Great mis-statement in article

[bigstrat2003]

FTFA: "Microsoft has still sold more Xbox 360 consoles than Sony to date."

Damn, I never saw that coming!!!

Re:Great mis-statement in article

[Anonymous Coward]

Wiki says: Xbox ~ 19M, PS2 ~ 14M (Xbox launched year early)

Re:Great mis-statement in article

[mnky-33]

whoosh!

Re:Great mis-statement in article

[fluffykitty1234]

FTFA: "Microsoft has still sold more Xbox 360 consoles than Sony to date."

Damn, I never saw that coming!!!

Sony hasn't sold any Xbox 360 consoles, so that quote is correct!

Re:Great mis-statement in article

[MikeBabcock]

I'm sure you meant PS3 not PS2. The PS2 has outsold both consoles by a wide margin of course, being several years earlier in its release and very successful ;-)

Of course, for random metrics, Sony has outsold Microsoft in the handheld gaming market by a wide margin. Also in the handheld music player market. Also in the blu-ray player market.

What I don't understand is how gamers ever believed the 360 was a cheaper system if they intended to pay for Gold year after year. The PS3 always had and still has free online gaming, making its 'cost to play' substantially cheaper than the 360, but I still hear people calling it 'expensive' in line for their Live cards at the checkout.

It's called Hubris

[santiagodraco]

Microsoft's problem is pretty simple, hubris. It's illustrated quite well when you look at the kind of management practices taken by Ballmer and to a lesser extent Gates.

Microsoft has been so enamored of their own success that they believe that they cannot go wrong, simply because of who they are. They are also more than willing to pursue business with the kinds of principles and ethics that you'd expect from a used car salesperson. They really don't care what the customer experience is, they care about making money and believe that no matter what they do, they will succeed regardless.

Well to some extent that's true, or was true in the past, as mass and momentum are real. However it's also very clear that eventually momentum decreases and customer loyalty is a fickle thing. MS is already seeing the fruits of their poor judgement. Apple is selling more Mac's than ever, and I'd argue that Vista has played a big part in that success. I for one don't own an Xbox 360, I own a PS3. I probably won't ever buy a 360.

I'm sure Microsoft will recover, but to what extent remains to be seen. But unless they change their principles and work toward attracting the kind of loyalty through quality and connecting with your customers that Apple has enjoyed they will continue to see, if nothing else, a customer base that will be willing to jump ship at the first opportunity.

Re:It's called Hubris

[jonadab]

Too bad they don't have the laziness and impatience to go with it!

RROD

[Narmacil]

I was playing Halo 3 the other night and my network connection was acting up, then the game lurched, froze and put tons of bars across the screen, followed by a loud screeching noise

so yeah, my Xbox RROD'ed on Sept 1st. I think its kind of odd that this story would pop up on /. within a week of it happening to me. I should pry call Microsoft sometime soon to get it replaced, but seeing as I'm a busy engineering student I haven't gotten around to it yet. Does anyone have any tips for dealing with Microsoft concerning this problem?

wish me luck

Re:RROD

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone have any tips for dealing with Microsoft concerning this problem?

Crowbars, pipe bombs, perhaps a shotgun, and a truckload of fertilizer...

Re:RROD

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I was impressed with their service. You call their number, then they ask you a bunch of questions. If they decide it is the RROD then they send you an empty box via courier. You follow the instructions and then send the box back via their prepaid courier. in about 2 weeks you get either a new or refurbed console. And they give you a month xbox live card for the lost time. The RROD problem warranty is good for 3 years from the purchase date. Other problems may not be covered. I just received my replacement about a week ago. This is my third xbox 360 though. The first one I bought lasted a week, then weird graphic glitches (took it back to the store); the second (store exchange) lasted about 2 years (not used heavily) So I'll see how long this one lasts. The fact that they took responsibility for their mistake is a good thing in my opinion. Good for them. Of course the better situation would have been where I didn't have to get the console fixed at all, but that I guess is the perfect world scenario.

Re:RROD

[Anonymous Coward]

I can attest to this being accurate.

Re:RROD

[Anonymous Coward]

"The fact that they took responsibility for their mistake is a good thing in my opinion. Good for them."

No, good for you!. Bad for Microsoft. They are losing large sums of the thing they love the most, money! And besides, they are cornered. They really have to deal with it. Imagine the backlash if they didn't? Someone needs to throw a chair at Ballmer and say they're gonna phucking kill him for this mess.

Re:RROD

[thewils]

That sounds kinda trite coming from an Anonymous Coward...

Nothing really new, except...

[EdIII]

But some inside the company still believed returns would be out of control

I usually wait 6-12 months after a console is released before I purchase it so that I can get one with a working mod-chip from Canada. I'll be damned if Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo are going to tell me I cannot play backups. Yes, Backups. So I had nearly a year to watch this infamous shit storm start, and not become a victim.

The problems with the console were known fairly early by pretty much everyone. People talk. Kids talk even more, and most times you cannot shut them up. After about 6-8 months I myself heard about RROD constantly from people. Microsoft really "screwed the pooch" on this one and AFAIK, the losses on the returns have been at least 1.9 billion. That is a staggering number.

The only thing new about this is that there were people in Microsoft that knew they had quality problems, and yet made a business decision to push forwards anyways. The only word for that is hubris. That is what really amazes me.

Microsoft's top game executive, Robbie Bach, president of the Entertainment & Devices group, said at a dinner in July that Microsoft's own research shows that gamers have largely forgiven the company for defective Xbox 360s.

That is awesomely full of shit. It says that he is an executive though, so I am not surprised.

The WHOLE reason I have still not purchased a XBOX360 is the Red Ring Of Death fiasco. It has to be the most unreliable product put forth in decades, probably since the Ford Pinto. I am not a fanboy and I own both a PS2 and a XBOX. I would really like to get a XBOX360, but to this day I cannot be assured that it will not fail within 6 months.

I bet that the "gamers" polled in that little research project were ALL under 14 years old. Of course they "forgave" Microsoft. They're kids! Try asking their parents if they can receive forgiveness. I bet there would be a different story entirely as shipping costs are not free. The time and hassle on the phone to get it taken care of takes its toll.

Forgiveness? That's a riot. Nobody that had to pay for that console is going to forgive or forget about this for a long long time. This WAS Microsoft's version of the Ford Pinto, even more so than Vista. That is saying something too.

Re:Nothing really new, except...

[Anonymous Coward]

The WHOLE reason I have still not purchased a XBOX360 is the Red Ring Of Death fiasco.

I come here, and I have to admit, I'm a marketer, not an engineer. So maybe I can best shed some light on Robbie Bach's statement and what I've quoted above.

1) You are NOT one of Microsoft's consumers. You never bought a Xbox RROD, so you don't count. You can't forgive them anymore than you can forgive my wife for cheating on me. Got to love marketing "math"...

2) Most people I know who bought a Xbox RROD are happy... they're totally fine with it. I know one guy who suggested I buy one, than proceeded to tell me he owns 3 so he always has one working while the other ones were going in for repairs. Another guy I know has a failing 360 that is not under warranty (the disc drive is failing, which is not RROD). He makes $6.50 an hour. He's going to buy another one when his dies. Why? He places more value on playing his 360 than he places on his kids. So I can completely believe Robbie Bach when he says "Gamers have largely forgiven the company for defective Xbox 360s"

Re:Nothing really new, except...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not purchasing a XBOX360 is a smart move on you part! As for me well,lets just say I am STUPID!!
I have gotten the red ring of death not once-twice or even 3 times 6 yes SIX times. Wait it gets better they(microsoft)have me so hooked on online gaming(really I am like a crack whore for COD4)that on the 5th red ring I got I ran out and bought a 360 Elite from Game Crazy so I wouldn't have to wait the 3 weeks it takes to repair these pieces of crap.Guess what?Yup thats right RED RING OF DEATH right out of the sealed box. Game Crazy does not take returns on consoles(1 hour after purchase). So now I have 2 consoles in Texas being repaired. So consider your self the smart one who walks amongst us-you didnt buy into the X-CRAP I mean Xbox lies. No I really mean XCRAP360

Re:Nothing really new, except...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet that the "gamers" polled in that little research project were ALL under 14 years old. Of course they "forgave" Microsoft. They're kids! Try asking their parents if they can receive forgiveness. I bet there would be a different story entirely as shipping costs are not free. The time and hassle on the phone to get it taken care of takes its toll.

It's really not that bad, I replaced mine. You call them up, give them your serial number. They ask you to run a few tests (verify the power supply is plugged in, how many LEDs on the ring are lit up, etc). It doesn't feel like they're trying to scam their way out of the warranty - it took about 3 minutes on the phone. A box arrived via purolator the next day. The box contains a bag, two pieces of foam and an instruction sheet. The instructions tell you to remove the hard drive, and only return the console part of the unit. Slap the two pieces of foam on the ends, place it in the box, tape it up with piece of tape provided, and apply the shipping sticker (also included in the box).

2 days later I received a shipping notice on my door. Pick up another box @ purolator with a new console. Reverse steps from previous paragraph. Total time was 3 days, frustration minimal, total cost was $0. This is clearly a high volume operation and they have it down to an art :)

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Dripdry]

Worst console? Hm.

There DOES seem to be a big following online for it with Live. It's pretty cool to play all those old games on the system, and I do know a fair number of people who use the system a lot.

Train wreck? I agree. Will it continue on? Probably. Flawed and broken, though fortunately people actually have a choice in the console market.

It would, however, be interesting if XBOX dropped out and left only Sony and Nintendo.

Xbox 360 Is The End Of The Xbox Fiasco For MS

[Anonymous Coward]

The first Xbox was just shy of being killed off when management grasped the magnitude of the fiasco but they were convinced to hold on.

When they were forced to pull the plug on the first Xbox there were all sorts of promises that the 360 would be the console where the E&D division 'got it right' finally. The E&D execs were given a stern warning that the first Xbox style losses were not going to be tolerated a second time.

The 360 has racked up Xbox style losses once again.

Needless to say the Xbox is the most hated project amongst Microsoft people with a 'how can we work so hard and those Xbox clowns are dragging down our earnings and stock price and not be fired' attitude.

Microsoft has been moving Xbox services over to Windows gaming over the past year. And Microsoft execs have stated that they aren't going to be killing off the 360 and letting the E&D fuckups create a third financial and marketplace fiasco. The 360 will be allowed to just fade away in the market as Microsoft turns their attention to Vista exclusive gaming.

Although if Ballmer gets the boot or loses power the entire E&D division is going to be essentially wiped clean by whoever comes in to clean up his mess. The Xbox and Zune disasters will be the top of the list.

Re:Xbox 360 Is The End Of The Xbox Fiasco For MS

[Chokolad]

Pass me some of the stuff you are smoking please...

Competition

[OvERKiLLsFFT]

I think that Xbox is the best thing that happened to PlayStation. In the real world, there is nothing like a little competition, especially direct competition. From Wikipedia's article on competition: "Merriam-Webster defines competition in business as 'the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms.' Seen as the pillar of capitalism in that it may stimulate innovation, encourage efficiency, or drive down prices, competition is touted as the foundation upon which capitalism is justified."

Re:Competition

[CronoCloud]

Right, as a Sony fanperson, I think it's good that Sony has some competition rather than totally dominating the market. It pissed me off to no end how SCEA slacked off a bit with added functionality for the PS2. Did you know that the PS2 can do a some of the media functionality the PS3 can do? But only in Japan. Same goes for the HDD stuff. NTSC-J FFX can use the HDD but NTSC-U/C territory FFX can't.

Re:Competition

[Anonymous Coward]

"Seen as the pillar of capitalism in that it may stimulate innovation, encourage efficiency, or drive down prices, competition is touted as the foundation upon which capitalism is justified."

It's actually the opposite, especially from a software developer perspective having 3 different platforms to develop for is very INEFFICIENT.

Not only that, but if we add up all the patents, lawsuits, legal fee's, EULA's, NDA's, DRM, and all the other bullshit we can see how "efficient" captialism is, it's a load of shit. The modern corporation as well as the patent/copyright system is one of the most fucked up entities ever. Anyone who says the market is "efficient" means the small bastardized E, in terms of engineering and in terms of nature, it's nowhere near such things.

So there is not much to the "market efficiency" argument in many markets, because in the real world. The world is the world, it's not an idealogy. It's geometry it's made of stuff that obeys the laws of physics, and no socio-economic theory can get around the hard and fast limits of nature. Things like the CPU industry for instance are difficult to get into, very high barriers, very asymmetrical (in terms of understanding it through the market lense). But in terms of physics it all makes sense, only so much information/matter can be pushed around over a given time period under a given environmental configuration.

Re:Competition

[shentino]

"Not only that, but if we add up all the patents, lawsuits, legal fee's, EULA's, NDA's, DRM, and all the other bullshit we can see how "efficient" captialism is, it's a load of shit. The modern corporation as well as the patent/copyright system is one of the most fucked up entities ever. Anyone who says the market is "efficient" means the small bastardized E, in terms of engineering and in terms of nature, it's nowhere near such things."

What you seem to be forgetting is that the pervasiveness of said patents, copyrights, etc etc etc also grant the possessing companies monopoly positions in their markets. And a monopoly dominated industry and/or market is, by definition, not competitive.

Your attack on competition as the foundation of capitalism fails because the evidence you use against it is completely irrelevant. Your evidence attacks monopoly, not competition. There's even cases where the "market" self-corrects even against such monopolies. For example, companies like the RIAA are starting to get the crap kicked out of them by ex-sheep who are fed up with getting abused. SCO finally screwed the wrong arse and got castrated by Novell. These are just examples of the "inefficient market" actually doing its job.

A capitalist market, which according to you implies competition, would work. The reason that "capitalism" doesn't work is that monopoly, power-hungry, government-bedsharing companies are preventing capitalistic competition from actually working.

Companies like the RIAA, Microsoft, and so on are sharing pockets with the government so much that they are effectively part of it. Now, given that, how could we call our system "capitalist" in the first place? I propose that, due to improper relations between companies and the feds, our market fails at one of the key prerequisites to qualify as "capitalist", namely, the minimalist involvement in the market by the "government".

And having 3 different platforms is really not that bad. Apple hardware specializes in high-end graphics. PC's are the workhorses in business. I would rather have Apple take care of the artsy fartsy type market needs and PC's take care of the number-crunchy boring stuff. I call it specialzaton where specialization is needed. I myself have both a PC and an iMac, both of which I wouldn't mind running.

As far as linux is concerned, IMO it is yet another "market self-correction" triggered by the abusiveness of the Window$ regime.

360s Continue To RRoD

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because potential Wii buyers were hesitating between 360 and Wii are now shocked to find out Microsoft's 360 is the most poorly designed console ever.

360s have been RRoD from months before the mess of a console even launched. Microsoft has had three years to get their shit together and still 'My Xbox died' threads in gaming forums all over the Net are gigantic and active daily with the latest batch of 360 owners posting their RRoD stories.

It's not the media's job to do damage control for Microsoft's shit console hardware. If anything the media let Microsoft get away with it for far too long last year.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Jorophose]

Like first person shooters?

At the end of the day...

[Schnoogs]

...I can't fault MS too much because they have the best console on the market, with the largest selection of must have games and hands down the best online service. I own a first day XBox 360 and it's been happily running for over two years because I had the foresight to buy the external fan. Meanwhile my PS3 collects dust and I haven't even bothered with the biggest gimmick in electronics history...the Wii.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

im wondering if those cheaps units are the flawed remanufactured ones.....nahhhh...those are financed by those pesky vista licences sold throuhg OEMÅ

Re:Cue Apple Apologists

[Penguinisto]

I must be... when did Apple start making a console?

(...and when you get done showing me that, someone show where the other three horsemen of the apocalypse are?)

(yes, I own a Mac. It ain't exactly a popular gaming platform...)

Ironically...

[PotatoSan]

...if I lived in Japan that might be ranked as insightful.

Right and wrong

[SuperKendall]

The right thing they did was launch early before the PS3, which gave them a big lead, which led game makers to give them juicy exclusives.

The wrong thing they did was launch early, which led to hardware problems which (reputation wise) will dog the system to the end of its days, leading for most game makers to also develop for at least the PS3.

Note the trouble is the thing they did wrong is the thing that makes the most difference long-term.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[stuboogie]

"It would, however, be interesting if XBOX dropped out and left only Sony and Nintendo."

Everyone should be thanking MS for jumping into the console market. Whether you like the XBox or not, the competition has made the market better.

Bash MS all you want, but they introduced more versatility in the XBox than Sony did with the PS2 (ie. harddrive, online multiplayer, custom soundtracks). Sony had a virtual monopoly in the console market and MS forced them to work harder. That only benefits the consumer.

Sure MS has lost a ton of money breaking into this market. Did anyone actually think it would be easy wrestling market share from a monopoly??? (If it were, Linux would have a much larger share of the PC platform. Yeah, yeah...mod me down. I'm writing this from a "Hardy" box.)

The RRoD is a serious goof by MS. Still, they have made great strides in establishing a position in the market considering this is their 2nd gen. and they are just now getting some of the franchise titles that were previously exclusive to Sony. Not to mention the benefit of having the enormous library of games Sony built up with the PS and PS2.

Whether you prefer the 360 or the PS3, you should want MS to stay in this market for the long haul. The competition will only improve the consumers experience.

Actually, shipping is free, at least in NA.

[hackerjoe]

For most people shipping costs are in fact free. The replacement process is not without hassle -- I had to request a box 3 times before actually getting one, though you could legitimately blame their shipping company for that -- but the whole thing never cost me a dime, and I had my '360 back within two weeks of sending it off. I live in Canada; I don't know how it is overseas, of course.

(For reference, the process is this: you call their toll-free line, spend about 10-20 minutes going through an automated system and then waiting on hold, then talk to a person for a few more minutes. A couple days later there's a box on your doorstep, which you pack up and send off at no cost. A week or two later the console comes back fixed. They'll do this for any '360 purchased ever, if you have RROD -- I worked on a "launch window" title and had one I got on launch day direct from MS.)

Re:Actually, shipping is free, at least in NA.

[Onideus01]

Absolutely, and I had the same experience you had with mine (excluding the three attempts to get a box sent to me). Microsoft has handled this very well, I think. To further the point, I've had to send my system back twice now, instead of only the one time, and I'm still extremely pleased with my system. In fact, I would go as far as to say that I "love" my Xbox 360. I've never spent as much time on any other console as I have with this one, and Xbox Live makes it that much more appealing.

Just for clarification, I don't like Microsoft, so I would prefer not to be accused of being a Microsoft fan boy. Also, I own a PlayStation 2 as well as a Nintendo Wii, so I feel like that gives me some perspective. This system is easily the most interactive I've owned, and I wouldn't trade the experiences I've had with it for any of the other systems. It's been too much fun, and with all of the third party developers jumping ship when it comes to single-platform releases, I feel like the fun has only just begun. I'm sorry that you feel so insecure about purchasing a 360 for fear of getting the RROD that you refuse to buy a system, because I feel like you're missing out on a great experience. And, supposing the worst case scenario occurs and you do end up with a broken system (like I had), guess what? You call a toll-free number, get a free box to ship it off, and get it back in two weeks. And if it's identical to my experience, they threw in a free month of Xbox Live, just for my troubles. Now that's sweet.

Re:Actually, shipping is free, at least in NA.

[phayes]

I'd really like to hear from someone who has gone through replacing their RROD'ed 360 who isn't from the USA, though. MS's support policies outside the USA are often much less painless. As in: In the USA just call them on the toll free number. In France, Call them non toll-free, give your credit card number, & IF MS decides it's not their fault then they'll give you a chargeback.

Not surpising that Xbox 1 -a PC- had great yields

[BcNexus]

TFA says that that Xbox 1 has 90% yields from start to finish. How surprising is that? MS simply built a practically industry standard PC. It had a hard drive, an Intel processor, an NVIDIA chip, a DVD-ROM and a power supply. These components were so standard, time tested, and widespread that combining these components into a machine with high yields was child's play. Add to that, the fact that MS was willing to hemorrhage cash with some presumably going towards for build quality on each unit sold, and it's no wonder the Xbox 1 was reliable. What's more, the PCBs and heat sinks had plenty of open air around then to encourage heat dissipation and removal through the fan at the rear.

Many people complain about how incredibly hot their electronic devices become during use, and laptops get the most complaints. Why? Because everything is packed into a nearly air-tight space, hampering heat removal. The 360 designers sabotaged the 360's reliability by building a small and sexy machine that can't dissipate heat from the internal components fast enough to keep the running reliably.

The 360 designers dug themselves a deeper hole by rushing unique hardware elements, in contrast to the Xbox 1, which had industry standard components. Intel had its Celeron's for the Xbox 1s "dialed in" at its factories: yields should have been in the nineties. Likewise, the SDRAM chips were industry-standard, along with the DVD drives. As far as I know, the NVIDIA GPU was neither new nor groundbreaking. Microsoft commissioned IBM to build a custom chip--who's IP would be owned by MS, so no skin off of IBM's nose if the custom processor failed due to MS's unrealistic usage in production--based on a fledgling microprocessor technology. This was a big risk that hasn't paid off because the 360s physical dimensions seem to belie an overly optimistic idea of heat production from the CPU. With the Xbox 1, any veteran engineer could say, "Look, here's a Celeron, here's its heat production, we NEED a heat sink of such and such size, we need open space around it, and this much airflow." With the custom 360 CPU, engineers may have been afraid to speak up about the thermal requirements because the CPU was so new and unfamiliar. Then, there's the ATI GPU, again custom. MS went ahead and crammed it into the system while telling themselves it wouldn't overheat, would perform admirably, and, if not, they could make it work reliably. Well, they should have been more cautious and properly spec'ed and tested the GPU. After taking the time to test and establish the GPU's operating conditions, only then should they they begun design on a case that would be small and still allow adequate heat dissipation.

In the end, the Xbox 1 was a great console because of three things: one, MS didn't innovate: they simply built a Wintel PC based on reliable, time-tested, industry standard components. Two, MS used its position in the software market to cover its losses for producing a high-powered, high quality PC. Three, MS built the Xbox 1 with more regard for function than form. The case was huge, but was great for thermal management.

The cynical answer

[Gorimek]

It's called "dumping" when it's done by someone you dislike, and "loss leader" otherwise.

For the politically unconnected company, there are three pricing models, all predatory:

Dumping - lower than competitors
Ripping off consumers - higher than competitors
Cartel - the same as competitors

more history than sense

[Ostracus]

"And it is not rocket science to design a game console."

Rocket science? No! But it's harder than you think to bring conflicting goals down to an economic level the majority can afford. Featuritus didn't help.

"Of course, we must acknowledge that MS tried to design custom hardware, a task for which it has no experience. "

Funny, the main two parts that caused most of the issues were from companies that had the expertise (IBM,ATI).

"What people fail to realize is that IBM spent the money to make rock solid products. "

You didn't read the article, did you? The yield on the new IBM processor was hardly "rock solid".

"The IBM PC was bulletproof. "

IBM PC original power supply problem (long)

Re:LOL! Xbots Crying On Slashdot - Where's Zonk?

[Anonymous Coward]

And maybe some day you'll understand why the Wii owners are laughing at your petty feud.

They should have kept xbox1 alive....

[cheekyboy]

Just like the ps2.

The could have made it smaller, with laptop HD, and external PSU. Still sold millions to cheaper markets and poorer people and still sold tonnes of great games and made it work with the new wireless controller too.

So they didnt like nvidia, but they could have worked out a long term deal,not just cut and run.

I guess never again will nvidia make deals with MS.

Re:Not surpising that Xbox 1 -a PC- had great yiel

[Caboosian]

The difference here is that the Xbox cost them a huge amount of money (I don't think they ever made a profit off an Xbox sale), and did not benefit from integration of parts. For instance, one of the most acclaimed bonuses of a 360 (by developers) is the integrated memory (I'm not a hardware engineer, so if I'm off here, correct me). The fact that the memory can be used both as video ram and standard ram allows for serious optimization benefits.

Just throwing together some PC parts doesn't make it better. It may be more reliable and save on R&D costs, but a console like a PS3 would blow a PC equivalent (512mb RAM, 6800GT, let's not talk about the CPU) out of the water. In the console market, you have to build a "console" and not a PC, otherwise you'll never bring down the cost sufficiently, and it won't have a very good lifespan (graphically).

What is revealed?

[Chuck Chunder]

It's amazing how much is revealed by these 2 questions.

The only thing it reveals to me is that you are probably a conspiracy theory nutbag.

The day of such a price cut probably is a good day for a bit of a retrospective.

What would you prefer? That they only reported the price cut? I don't see why simply regurgitating a press release would be the sort of reporting we should wish for.

What they need ...

[David Gerard]

... is a new Xbox 360 logo.

And I'm sure those $200 cheap Xboxes aren't all refurbished red ring casualties. Not all of them.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Antique Geekmeister]

Ah, youngsters. You never dealt with the Halcyon laser disc game console.

BOGO

[stupidflanders]

I didn't see any anti-dumping petitions for Kia's Buy One Get One Free event. Didn't notice any powerful lobbies in opposition either. But then, maybe that's why the Big Three are in such dire straits right now.

(sorry, I couldn't resist!)

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[jonadab]

Eh, before XBox there was Sega, and before Sega there was Intellivision.

Competition is good, but it doesn't really matter very much which companies are doing the competing. There's only room for so many major game consoles at once -- I would say somewhere around three in any given generation. When more companies than that try to introduce new consoles at once, some of them fail (e.g., Atari Jaguar). So I would say that if Microsoft were to exit the market, there's a high probability somebody else would step in.

Not that I think Microsoft is likely to exit the market in the immediate future. They aren't known for exiting markets, generally, for one thing. I suspect it would be inconsistent with their overall corporate strategy.

A wii little Mac

[tepples]

I must be... when did Apple start making a console?

First there was Pippin. Then there was the wii little Mac mini.

Re:A wii little Mac

[Keeper Of Keys]

First there was Pippin. Then there was the wii little Mac mini.

Then Pestilence and Death.

Oh, maybe you were answering his other question.

Put it into perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

When talking about Microsoft and it's business areas people often seem to completely lose perspective.

Whilst Microsoft has a monopoly in the operating system market it's worth noting that despite this, on a global scale Microsoft is hardly one of the biggest players. Even Sony, it's main competitor in the console market is worth around $120 billion vs. Microsoft's $80 billion.

The point to take away from this is that Microsoft needs to buy into these markets because they're already dominated by other monopolies, or conglomerates of companies that are essentially monopolies. Microsoft isn't even close to the size of many of the big financial institutes, or many of the oil companies, but that's what a company dreams of being, and to do so Microsoft needs to extend the areas it is strong in, it's expertise is in technology and if other technology areas are already tied up then the only option is to buy their way into these areas. Quite why you see that as a bad thing however I'm not sure as the only reason a company would need to buy into a specific area in the first place is because another company or group of companies already have a monopoly there!

Would you suggest it was a bad thing if an alternative OS vendor bought their way into the operating system market by paying the likes of Dell to offer their OS as an option?

Regarding the shareholders, they don't mind, because the profits across the company are high and whilst the 360 doesn't currently have much more penetration into the console market than the last generation XBox, it's still early days- console numbers go up when console prices go down to a point where it's an impulse buy. To be at the stage of the last generation XBox when the console is still fairly pricey. More importantly though their main competitor Sony isn't even close to the sales of their last generation so there's certainly clear progress being made all round and that'll be enough for the shareholders. If Microsoft can continue the trend through to the next generation and beyond then they will attain market dominance over Sony, certainly the blow they've struck this time is a damn good start for them. If I was a shareholder I really wouldn't be worrying as the future is fairly bright whilst the company overall is still extremely profitable and doing well to extend into other areas.

People can hate Microsoft all they want, but at the end of the day not liking them doesn't change the reality of their financial and business situation. They're still making a lot of right moves and ever fewer wrong moves.

Nothing new

[gilesjuk]

Big company releases defective product to get a foot in the door. Hardly anything new?

Typical of Microsoft, thinking of themselves rather than the people who have to use their product.

So like any other Microsoft product really

[MrKaos]

Incomplete when reaching the market and let the client base do the beta testing. I think Visual Studio is their best product. Still, Microsoft make really good mice and keyboards that even work under Linux, so credit where credit's due.

Re:So like any other Microsoft product really

[UnknowingFool]

For the most part, keyboards and mice follow the PS/2 and USB standards for interfaces and MS doesn't do anything radical with their products. They do have some nice features but for the most part, MS doesn't stray from the norm of what mice and keyboards should do. Yes, it's amazing what MS quality can be like if they follow standards.

Re:Not surpising that Xbox 1 -a PC- had great yiel

[coop247]

The real issue was MS deciding to design, and therefor own, the chips used in the 360. Even a seasoned hardware manufacturer like Sony wasn't stupid enough to take that on, they partnered with IBM to do most of the heavy lifting. They are a software company, and developing software is very different from manufacturing chips.

The article sure made it sound like the classic case of marketing making too many early decisions, as in picking a small curved case, then forcing engineering to figure out how to pack it all in.

I'm still pissed that they kneecapped this entire cycle by releasing a console without a hard drive for cost purposes.

the market regulates itself and improves by itself

[Anonymous Coward]

yea, sure, as long as you don't have monopolies.

Another possible reason for failure rates...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure of the validity of this claim, but an EE friend of mine claims to work with an ex-Microsoft Xbox EE. The story goes that supposedly Microsoft has an "in-house software only" policy with regards to all product development. However, an industry standard production management software package, which I can't for the life of me recall the name of, was being used at the very beginning of the 360 production process. Once the big wigs at MS discovered this, they demanded that the production software be changed to a Microsoft-created alternative....and the rest is history.

No idea about the validity of this story, but there you have it.

The cynical anwer

[Gorimek]

It's called "dumping" when it's done by someone you dislike, and "loss leader" otherwise.

For the politically unconnected company, there are three pricing models, all predatory:

Lower than competitors - Dumping
Higher than competitors - Ripping off consumers
The same as competitors - Price fixing

Still an Issue?

[song-of-the-pogo]

Most XBox 360 consoles before the recent hardware changes will die with unreasonably short lives. It's just a matter of time. It's a design flaw, not a manufacturing flaw.

i was also amused at the coincidence of this article hitting the actual day we finally broke down and bought a 360 (mainly in anticipation of rock band 2). keeping us away from the 360 until now had been price, a dearth of games that interested us (i used to be all about the fps, but no more) and the RRoD problem. i had asked a friend, about a year ago, about the issue and was astounded to learn the failure rate was in the double digits (i think he said it was around 13% back then). my faint hope is that, by waiting until this most recent hardware release, we're less likely to encounter the issue. have there been real changes made, or am i just living in a land of candy canes and fairies?

Me without my mod points ...

[LrdDimwit]

Someone mod this up. Aside from some formatting issues, this comment is a great explaining of why dumping would ever happen, and why it can be anticompetitive.

Re:Dumping? Loss leader? IT'S NOT SOLD

[Nom du Keyboard]

'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?"

For starters it's not sold. If it were sold you could do what you want with it, mod it to your particular desires, run what you want on it. As it is, it's like buying a record or CD player from one of the 4 big music companies and finding out that it only plays records/CD's from that company, which they sell you at immense profit!

Re:Ohhhhh boy...

[Dogtanian]

In b4 fanboi console war shitstorm...

How tragic- your vision of the impending and inevitable flamewar ignored and modded down by disbelievers, just like a latterday Cassandra.

Mmmmm..... nah, on second thoughts you're just stating the bleeding obvious :)

RROD

[jkeelsnc]

I do not like Microsoft as a company for this reason. They have a history of releasing products that have great potential but too many defects and high failure rates. They rush something out the door stuffing sh&% into stores before it is ready. I like the games for the Xbox 360 and its capabilities are still pretty good among the current generation of consoles. However, their reliability record is unacceptable both with the Xbox 360 and with Windows. My next computer will be an Apple. Thanks a lot Micro$oft. Focus on Office and development tools like Visual Studio that are brilliant instead of trying to sell crap like Windows and Xbox 360.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Anonymous Coward]

The original PS2 had an expansion port for Ethernet and HDD. This was well before Microsoft even came out with XBox. This was around the time when ADSL was not even popular and Dreamcast only had a modem port.

I must agree, though, that Sony should have encouraged more companies to use on-line games and HDD, but failed to do so apart from the Japanese market.

an overlapping market it not the same.

[krischik]

If the Wii didn't exist would MS have sold several million more 360s? Of course they would.

Maybe - but note that I am not interested in either PS3 or XBOX - but I sometime do look at Wii with interest.

So it not the same market - it's an overlapping market, yes - but not the same. Because there are current and potential Wii customers who would have bought nothing at all if Wii did not exist.

Martin

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Anonymous Coward]

Dreamcast only had a modem port.

Incorrect. The Dreamcast has three networking components: the modem (a pack-in in NA), the Broadband Adapter, and LAN Adapter (only released in JP).

The Dreamcast supported online gaming out of the box. The PS2 did not for years later.

Why is it called the XBox 360?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because when you see it you turn 360 degrees and walk away.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[MikeBabcock]

I'd like to point out that the parent is quite funny but moderated as a troll, so don't spend mod points on me, read the parent post :-)

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[MikeBabcock]

The PS3 is now out-selling the 360.

The PS3 may have a higher attach rate as well, last I heard.

The PS3 plays a modern high definition movie format you can actually buy new releases in.

The PS3 doesn't charge me to play online, so its substantially cheaper than a 360 over a year, or worse, five years.

The PS3 rarely crashes (I know some people report that it happens, even though its pretty stable).

The PS3 has some great exclusives.

Failure? hardly. Its still being sold successfully and selling more by the month while the 360 goes downhill.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[MikeBabcock]

I remember a comment by a Microsoft senior executive about the 360 vs. the PS3 before either console was released. The Microsoft executive pointed out very willingly that the one area Microsoft would struggle against Sony in would be hardware -- Sony has an excellent hardware design infrastructure, they're very good at on-going engineering revisions and quality control, and Microsoft would be hard pressed to improve on their own console over time the way Sony did with the PS2, PSP and has now done with the PS3.

He was confident however that better software would make Microsoft the leader at the end of the day.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Floritard]

Everyone should be thanking MS for jumping into the console market. Whether you like the XBox or not, the competition has made the market better.

I strongly disagree. This has been the hardest console purchase decision I've ever had. Before this gen it was never really a question of which console to buy (or more frustratingly which model). Each system had it's perks. I had a Genesis and a Super Nintendo. I had a Playstation and a Nintendo 64 (the Saturn was rubbish). I had an XBox and a PS2 (sorry Nintendo, the Gamecube was so under supported).

This gen I keep going back and forth. Do I buy a PS3? Is blu-ray worth a shit? I don't have an HDTV yet. It is nice to be able to swap out that HDD for a non-proprietary drive. Oh no, no rumble. Hey it can play xvid now. Awe, now it's just limited software emulation of backwards compatibility. Hmm, another new model, I can barely keep track anymore. Awe, now they're making the systems with no backwards compatibility anymore:( Hmm is it really that hard to develop games for?

Should I buy an XBox 360? God that's a dumb name, were they really pissing their pants that much about being called XBox2 when the PS3 came out? Are we really going to play XBox720/1040/1400? What is this company really thinking? Hey look at all those hardware failures. Sounds risky. Hmm, but people say it's got some good games. Which model do I buy? Hmm all the cheaper ones seem to be hiding their costs in additional hardware you'll have to buy. That's stupid. Wow, that HDD price is flat out rape. Hmm it does seem to have a lot of momentum with people. But they dropped support for my original XBox like instantaneously, that still stings a bit. Are they already talking about the next XBox. Wtf! Live looks pretty good though. Wow wait why would I pay for that? Haven't they seen Steam for the PC (which is free and pretty similarly featured)? And there's ads everywhere even though I'm paying for it? Fuck guys, pick one or the other. XBLA looks pretty cool. Lots of neat games. Damn that's some stupid DRM they have built into it. Not like the PS3 is completely open, but man I hate supporting such broken DRM in a product. Hey look, price drops around the corner. I still have to buy all those stupid accessories (HDD, wi-fi), which are kinda necessary for me anyway.

A lot of this is due to new technology. And so are the higher prices. But the unsure presentation and splintering of the systems into different models is just folly. Man there are too many models to choose from. On Sony's part this was just hubris. For MS it seems more like desperation (like the number thing in their name). Both are issues of brand and not product, and each product is really suffering under this infatuation with brand building. I'm here to play games, not to join a fanboy club. And again with the higher price, people become so invested with their purchase they become fanboys. Hey thanks for that addition to the console world guys.

I have a Wii. It was a no-brainer frankly. And it's a fun console. I don't regret it and I feel it's earned the money I've spent on it already.

For the meatier games, I think I'll eventually go with the PS3, once they get that Dual Shock 3 in there (sixaxis can blow). I'm not going to repeatedly send in a 360 for repairs. I've never had to do that with any of my consoles. After 2+ years MS hasn't got the RRoD problem under control?

As far as I'm concerned, the major thing MS has contributed to gaming, besides popularizing online play (for the dumb ape types who couldn't figure it out for the 15 years it's been hugely popular in PC gaming), is the dubious achievement of really lowering the bar on hardware reliability. I still kind of blame the consumers on that one. C'mon people, demand better quality products or we're just going to keep getting hasn't-left-beta, still-born trash. And MS will gladly sell it to you. Maybe Sony next time...

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[J-1000]

What about the XBox systems is anything but evolutionary? All it has done is delayed the inevitable merge between PCs and home entertainment devices (game consoles, Blu Ray players) and further established Microsoft as the software upon which home computing operates.

Sure, there are features in the XBox that have pressured Sony and Nintendo to add them as well, but it was only a matter of time before the PC applied that same pressure. Haven't you noticed PCs getting cheaper, smaller, and better integrated with TVs?

Now in addition to having a stranglehold on the gaming operating system of the future (Windows _______) they a stranglehold on the social networking aspect of it, in addition to royalties for every game sold. And all we have to show for it is less money in our bank account and one more technology brick taking up space under our TV. We are subsidizing the monopoly.

For real though, the PC is evolving with or without consoles. Until the eventual merge, each new home console is simply one more roadblock between me and the games I want to play. That doesn't help; that sucks.

Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market

[Anonymous Coward]

person shot first!

Re:Not surpising that Xbox 1 -a PC- had great yiel

[Anonymous Coward]

Intercooler: $14 at your local gamestop.