Slashdot Mirror
IBM Threatens To Leave ISO Over OOXML Brouhaha
barnackle writes "In addition to threatening to leave certain standards organizations over the OOXML shenanigans, IBM created new guidelines for its own participation in those organizations in an attempt to pressure the ISO and ECMA to be more fair in their approval procedures."
Any company that helps exterminate Jews is a good company in my book.
stick it to those bastids IBM! c==8
Hey since IBM whored out their hardware divisions overseas, does anyone still gives a rats ass about what they have to say?
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
this is the second best news of the day. First place: I got sucked off in the bathroom this morning :)
Hmm... didn't they used to be some important international standards body at one point, before they got into the marketing business and went under?
I thought they were already gone...
Why is this news?
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
...because of concerns that their processes are not always fair.
A "fairness" lecture from IBM? They're one to talk! Oh, to count the ways....
Brought to you by.....IBM! Makers of bloated slow shit! OS/2, DB2, Websphere, and everything else they've ever did!
If Sun other large tech companies join them, it will do a lot more good. IRTFA (some kind soul bought me a /. subscription and you can't comment on stories that come "in the future") and part of the end of the article explains why IBM just can't leave the standards bodies. They have their own standards to push, for instance.
Free Martian Whores!
It seems to me this will have little meaning in the long run. It's been shown the ISO is deep in the pockets of M$. Do they really care what IBM thinks or does? I mean they already got their money right?
Surely IBM will have more influence over future ISO decisions if it remains a member. This is particularly true of a 'Big Player' like IBM who will carry a lot of clout.
'Outsiders' can be discounted far more easily as they are simply not part of the process, and could therefore be said to be irrelevant.
IBM should collaborate with other large firms (but presumably not Microsoft) to enforce due diligence in future decisions.
Smivs on the intertubes!
What's it up to these days? Anyone follow IBM anymore?
today, dont you think ? it is to me at least.
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I have some friends and an ex-wife that work for IBM. While I would go as far to say that, by and large, my dealings with them have been fair an ethical, I would resist any sort of "white knight" metaphors, it is still a publicly traded company and stock holders mean more than standards.
It is only that IBM is a technically competent competitor that it *can* compete and win on a level playing field that they promote good standards.
That being said, having dealt with double dealing scum of Microsoft many times in the past, I'll take IBM any day.
IBM? Who are they?
Oh, right, they were once an important company in the ancient days of core memory.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
What's with all the astroturfing?
Someone with too much marketing money has a serious axe to grind with IBM.
-1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
Some countries are already making noises about not automatically adopting ISO standards. The more countries that adopt this "a la carte" approach to ISO, the more it will weaken ISO. The more countries that adopt the a la carte approach "until such time as ISO gets its act together" the more pressure there will be on ISO to get its act together.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
A quick look over at Groklaw has a good article about the motivations here. I'd still be cautious, but it's optimistic when IBM stresses open standards as being important to them. I'm actually surprised this didn't happen sooner with the garbage of OOXML.
If a really major player leaves the organization it is a major "no confidence" vote in the organization itself.
While the official standards are a great idea, a really big player or a consortium of them can easily just create defacto standards that will have a great chance in the real-world marketplace. This is doubly true if they actually make their standards truly open, as IBM seems to advocate.
I'd say that if companies that manufacture about 10% of the market leave ISO, then it is wounded. If it hits a number like 25%, then it's basically useless.
Also, large companies pay an obscene amount in yearly dues to be part of the standards bodies. Losing that cash will sting badly.
Surely IBM will have more influence over future ISO decisions if it remains a member.
And surely ISO will be able to stay more relevant if it can retain IBM as a member. Standards bodies can be discounted for more easily if "Big Players" are simply not part of the process.
If IBM were pulling out simply because they weren't getting what they wanted, then the whole thing would seem childish. But when a standards body is approving bad standards because it's being manipulated/corrupted, and attempts to clean up the corruption are not being successful, then the appropriate thing for other "big players" to do is drop support for that standards body.
BROUHAHA
if you are unable to see the underlying deep meaning in a veiled statement such as the parent post, dont waste your mod points !.
this post is offtopic. not parent.
though since you have modded faultily, this post has somewhat become on-topic.
now work on this paradox you just created and prepare a paper on it until monday, 09.45 sharp. i want pie charts in appendix.
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While IBM certainly still does make enough servers to put it at the top of the quarterly lists of server vendors, they make even more selling software and services.
SirWired
Mac: But our shenanigans are cheeky and fun.
Thorny: Yeah, his shenanigans are cruel and tragic.
Foster: Which wouldn't make them shenanigans, at all, really.
Mac: (Irish voice) Evil shenanigans!
O'Hagen: I swear to God, I'll pistol whip the next guy that says 'shenanigans!'
Mac: Hey Farva, what's the name of that restaurant you like with all the goofy shit on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?
Farva: You mean Shenanigan's?
Mac, Foster and Thorny: Oh, no! (Laughing) (Mac hands O'Hagen his gun.)
Farva: You're talking about Shenanigan's, right?
O'Hagen: Put those away!
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
I don't think IBM feels like much of a 'Big Player', considering how much the ISO listened to them in regards to the OOXML stuff. If the ISO is going to act so stupid here, ignoring IBM, why should IBM expect their remarks to be considered by the ISO in the future? While it's true that MS isn't going to... influence the ISO's decisions quite so strongly on every tech-related issue as it did here (and so IBM will still have some voice) it is still a better idea to act now. If this happens again (and again and again), IBM won't have as much ground for fighting it. They'd have to justify why they didn't fight quite so hard before, and even if they make a perfectly reasonable argument (ie, your argument) the very fact they're put in that position weakens them.
IBM - and anyone else who cares to (and is in the position to) make a stance against the ISO's actions - must do it immediately and make it clear.
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
we are here, here and now.
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I think it would be best for everyone if IBM put millions of dollars for Blackwater to be their 'independent delegate' in discussing the situation with Microsoft.
Sometimes the only way to get a very level playing field is with a very big, heavy, unaccountable object.
I didn't actually hear this anywhere, I'm just trying to find some comfortable way to justify the complete and total annihilation of our good friends at Redmond. You know, besides the obvious reasons.
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
"..OOXML...IBM...ISO....ECMA"
Danger! Acronym overload!!!
Must....keep.....head.....from......exploding. (MKHFE).
I don't know for sure, but, from what I've read recently, it seems so...and I think "bribeocracy" makes a good tag.
If IBM joins up with major countries that are on record against this infamy (like Brazil and India) and convinces other big players like Sun to join to form a rival to ISO, this could be a good move. I daresay, smaller players like Linux vendors (except Novell) will gladly join the new organization. They should then set up rules that an improperly documented and vendor-tied standard cannot even be brought up for a vote in that new organization, let alone bribed through like this OOXML bullshit.
PJ has, as usual, her own thoughtful analysis on the announcemnt at Groklaw.
Notes they bought from Lotus, so you can't really blame the IBM software guys...
A facinating slashdot headline. IBM isn't a "member" of ISO today, so can't exactally leave. ISO is made up of national standards bodies, there is no concept of corporate membership.
While I do think that IBM leaving ISO in protest would be a good thing overall for both ISO and IBM, I can't help but think that Microsoft will use this, as always, as a marketing ploy. In fact, I suspect they'll step up their rants against IBM and Sun.
"Look at IBM! Now we know they were the ones pushing ODF, and not us pushing Office on ISO!"
The other problem I see with IBM leaving ISO and succeeding in bringing other companies with it, is that now Microsoft has a very recognizable, international standards group under its heel and will probably monkey with software standards with impunity (first possible agenda: eliminate ODF as defunct). This will backfire on them in the long run, but keep in mind that Microsoft has historically favored short-term benefits for itself.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
it tells you ms is more experienced in doing dirty footwork than ibm is.
and we all know that from the stories of last 2 years on slashdot, even if not our own experiences, though ms fanbois may disagree.
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That the words "brouhaha" and "shenanigans" are not used enough.
maybe Microsoft will threaten to leave. Now that would be entertaining.
Those "fastest Computers" were just for PR. Meaning, those projects got unlimited budgets and no red tape - I've been there.
Try again.
What would be the point? I can't think of any products IBM sells that a slashdot reader would want to buy. Thus, no commercial benefit in bashing IBM here.
Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
and STILL not obeying the courts.
I think MS wins the "dirty little shitbag" contest.
PS as for MS using IBM's leaving as a stick to beat them with, when MS has shit in the pool, stop playing in it. m'kay?
While the "M" in "IBM" stands for machines, the company (of which I'm an employee) has been moving away from hardware as a core product toward high-margin software & services, which now comprise 54% of the company's business. The hardware is important, because the different parts of the business feed each other. For instance, Microelectronics exists to ensure state-of-the-art chip access for server products which allows complete turnkey service solutions for many customers and provides a platform for new software sales. However, the revenue is now more than half from software and services and this will continue to grow.
i'd like to buy my own personal mainframe, you insensitive clod...
What ? Me, worry ?
You do know they did have this pet project called x86, it wasn't very popular, unless you happen to run Windows, OSX or Linux.
IBM is a bunch of cry babies, pure and simple. I hope they DO leave. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
BTW, as much as slashdotters accuse Microsoft of bribing lots of ISO officials (complete bullshit, BTW), it was IBM that was going around bringing pressure to bear on officials, and writing their objections for them (that's why so many of the submitted objections to the first OOXML spec were nearly word-for-word identical despite coming from multiple countries; they were written by IBM; Rob Weirdo doesn't even deny this (despite being a well-known liar, whose lies are so blatant that even John McCain would hesitate to use them).
IBM tried to game the system MUCH more than did Microsoft. They lost, now they're whining about it. If IBM does leave ISO (let's hope they do), THAT will take a huge amount of the influence peddling out of the ISO system, since the vast majority of such shennanigans are done by IBM.
Yeah, you heard me.
"In the absence of the ability to establish the attribute of truth they tried to establish the noble attributes."
Because ISO competed against Microsoft, & Microsoft *cracked* its competition.
Having broken the authority of ISO, :b
they can now claim that THEY are the standard-makers,
( ISO *does* obey MS, right? )
and any gov't that wants to look big/important, like other gov'ts,
will obey Microsoft now,
because there must be ONE standard,
not contradictory oneS,
right?
ISO is significantly more important than record companies.
AccountKiller
...IBM released JFS for Linux, works with the Apache group, have released DB/2 for Linux, continued releasing Informix for Linux, have released 500 patents (a mix of hardware and software) for Open Source projects, developed DAISY - an on-the-fly machine code translation engine, worked on Linux M:N threading, and were one of the first vendors to install a Linux distro on their hardware as standard. Many of their Open Source projects have been abandoned and deleted from their site, however, which is a pain.
They are not perfect - they suffer from many of the brain diseases associated with big business - but their contributions to Open Source are dramatic. SGI is one of the few big businesses to seriously compete with IBM on open source software released and contributions to the community. Both IBM and SGI deserve high praise and strong support for the work they have done. Likewise, they both deserve a stiff rap over the knuckles for deleting Open Source software they had released. (In SGI's case, Open B1, which was a nice insight into SGI's security models.)
In light of their history, I would be inclined to argue that IBM and SGI merit the presumption of innocence that is generally withdrawn for large corporations, at least in regards to Open Source and open standards. There needs to be a good reason to believe they are violating acceptable conduct, we can't simply assume it, because they have demonstrated for a great many years that this is one specific subject in which they have worked hard to be trustworthy. It's better to repay that than to give them an incentive to revert to mainstream corporate practices in these areas.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I don't see any immediate demise of the ISO, either.
Which is why they led the way with and gave away eclipse. which has become the absolute DEFACTO ide for java development, and more and more for everything else.
yeah the are clearly selfish pigs.. damn you for getting behind open source software, and linux
yes they also brought the world lotus notes, but hey no one is perfect.
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
EdelFactor
Given how selfish, arrogant, and bullying IBM has been when it has had the opportunity, it is pretty rich their complaining about MS and threatening to take their marbles home and cry to mommy.
Having been around long enough to have been told by IBM in no uncertain terms that I can have that technology if and when IBM decides I can have it...having seen IBM undermine, ignore, malign, slander, and otherwise do what is could to destroy technology and standards it did not like or felt were a competitive threat...I'm crying crocodile tears.
If ever two slimy scumbags deserved each other its MS and IBM.
A pox on both your houses
This isn't about specific software, hardware or other standards per se.
This is about a corrupt process, which this debacle happened to reveal. The organisation is fundamentally corrupt, the procedures are fundamentally corruptible, and the appeals process has proven that there is no effective corrective mechanism for dealing with corruption.
This makes every standard they stamp, be it the crappy and unimplementable software standard that proved their level of corruption and incapacity for correcting it, or another standard that may be legitimate, or the result of equally corrupt processes to which we are not privy, equally suspect. We cannot know which standards are good, and which are the result of industrial corruption, so all are relatively worthless.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The ISO became a joke. If IBM gives whatever is left of the ISO an ass kicking, and the ISO feels like its ass is being kicked, then I'm happy. The ISO should get its ass kicked. ECMA is pure joke. They are beyond repair, and not worth any effort for rehabilitation. The ISO lost an entire generations respect. They are a puppet joke organization, not worthy of respect. Its sad that they became sellouts. But their greed led to more problems for themselves (they can't get any standards passed anymore because all of the 'paid voters' changed the quorum size and now they can't set standards for toothpaste. They get what they deserve.
companies HAVE characteristics.
because, after some point, making more money just doesnt matter much to the owners, employees of a successful company. only exceptions are financial institutions, like banks etc, but then again their SOLE activity is money, so success = money.
anything other than that, a company has characteristics. it is defined by the top management in great measure, but also employees of the corporation.
in tech sector this goes further. people reflect their ideas in their work, and when you combine the resultant effect, it becomes how a company behaves.
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"Screw you guys, I'm going home."
The funny thing is Microsoft probably couldn't be happier if ISO became irrelevant. That would mean no more pesky governments relying on some standard body to decide what to buy.
Hell, they probably tried their hardest to make the whole OOXML thing look like a sham. MS wins either way. They either get their standard in, or ISO falls and the smaller ISO replacements wouldn't have the clout to fight back.
FUNK!
The whole German (and French, but it doens't count ;) automobile industry uses the Dassault systemes Catia CAE-suite by IBM (Porche, Daimler, BMW, VW, etc, and all the Truck manufacurers).
Today you can't become a supplier of the car industry without providing 3D Catia models of your parts.