Venezuela Purchases a Million Intel Classmates

An anonymous reader submits news of the million-laptop order from Venezuela of Intel's version of the kid-friendly laptop. The computers are produced in Portugal. "The machines, rebranded 'Magellan,' will also come with Linux pre-installed as opposed to Windows XP. This order alone is 50% bigger than the entire OLPC project has managed to sell worldwide."

Comments

quick, bomb them

[jacquesm]

obviously they'll be used to simulate Venezuela's nuclear bomb...

And they have oil to boot!

What's holding you back ?

Re:quick, bomb them

[Anonymous Coward]

obviously they'll be used to simulate Venezuela's nuclear bomb...

And they have oil to boot!

What's holding you back ?

An unfortunate case of scruples.

Re:quick, bomb them

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry. Only Political leaders have the authority to make stupid decisions like that.

Re:quick, bomb them

[jacquesm]

Funny you should say that, no Canada is actually pretty good, I've lived there for 5 years, I know lots of Aussies and just visited England and Scotland a couple of weeks ago. And I met some really nice people there.

There is really nothing wrong with any of these countries, it's their governments that get it very much wrong a disturbingly large amount of the times that they make decisions.

The 'genocide in your backyard' portion of your comment somewhat puzzles me, but I'm sure you will enlighten me as to what it was you meant. My backyard is rather small (all of 1500 square meters) and I'm pretty sure I would have spotted a genocide taking place there. Even a single murder would probably stand out quite clearly.

Whether Russia is 'ok' or not is really not something I can comment on, I've never been there (up to the Polish-Russian border but not to the other side), I just said that Russia has a pretty strong maths and programming tradition but that not much of it made it across the border.

I would like to bet with you that I've spent more time travelling and living abroad than you have and so will ignore your 'get out of your basement' comment.

Also, uid's are free so if you want to be taken a little more serious I suggest you get one and log in.

Thank you for taking such a disproportionate interest in my posting history.

Re:quick, bomb them

[TapeCutter]

"I read somewher that murder is a crime, genocide is statistics."

Or in it's original form: "One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic."

You won't save the world by shouting at it, all of the random ass-headed cruelty of the world will suddenly make perfect sense if you look inside the Monkeysphere.

Re:quick, bomb them

[PopeRatzo]

Also, uid's are free

What does birth control have to do with this?

Re:quick, bomb them

[Anonymous Coward]

Well played. Your post history slams or espouses some country in 8/10 last comments, but by not mentioning it here, I'm sure no mod will ever look it up. I guess I should have expected that.

Re:quick, bomb them

[KGIII]

I'm not sure what country you are hailing from but it is IUD. Intra-uterine device.

Re:quick, bomb them

[MrNaz]

Spoken like a true foreigner.

Re:quick, bomb them

[hedwards]

So in other words you deny the existence of cluster computing. I'm not saying that's what they plan to do, but it's pretty ignorant to suggest that with enough of these that they couldn't do so. Especially if they were to also add in other computers that they already had.

As far as oil goes, I really wish that meme would die. It's not in the national interest of the US to upset oil exporting nations. We had pretty good access to the oil in Iraq previous to invasion, it's only been harder since.

Re:quick, bomb them

[Anonymous Coward]

For any American to lecture anyone about ethnic cleansing is laughable. This country was BORN on genocide and slavery.

Act your fucking age, smart ass.

Re:quick, bomb them

[BPPG]

wow, thank you for sharing that article, it was pretty awesome.

Re:quick, bomb them

[jacquesm]

no, cluster computing was exactly what I had in mind when I wrote that.

See http://clustercompute.com/

Re:quick, bomb them

[jacquesm]

And your post history includes all kinds of weird stuff about frosty piss, goatse and the GNAA, but by not mentioning it here, I'm sure no mod will ever look it up. I guess I should have expected that.

Re:quick, bomb them

[atraintocry]

And if you have a low enough UID, chances are you'll never see an IUD.

(IOW: whoosh)

Re:quick, bomb them

[TapeCutter]

Glad you enjoyed it.

Re:quick, bomb them

[KGIII]

Must be me 'cause even with your explanation it still doesn't make any sense to me. Could be the beer though.

Re:quick, bomb them

[Anonymous Coward]

'Cuz everyone's ancestors walked onto clean, virgin land and didn't take it from anybody.

"The US government must return our tribal lands to their rightful owners, to satisfy our religion and allow our ancients traditions to survive intact."

"Sure, we'll do that. Let's just look at some historical evidence to confirm your claim and.... Ooooh, I'm sorry, another people, with an entirely different society and traditions, was living here a few hundred years ago. I wonder what happened to them?"

"Let me consult my ancient tribal traditions. Okay, I've got the results back: THOSE JERKS NEVER EXISTED. We were created here at the same time the world was created."

"Nope, I'm pretty sure they were here, and there's no trace of them elsewhere. And you guys have a pretty impressive warrior tradition, do you not?"

"Damn straight we do!"

"Hmmm... well...."

Do the laptops come with cameras?

[Centurix]

If so, maybe give one to Miss Venezuela? I'd guess her IM nick would be WorldPeace69...

Re:Do the laptops come with cameras?

[jacquesm]

I'm sure you only want this to inspect her vast tracts of land :)

Re:Do the laptops come with cameras?

[Gerafix]

Where the dirt road has been traveled numerously... ?

Re:Do the laptops come with cameras?

[barometz]

Only to redistribute them among the people, of course.

Re:Do the laptops come with cameras?

[Eponymous Crowbar]

But then she could incite a socialist uprising.... in my pants.

Re:Do the laptops come with cameras?

[Centurix]

Well, I'm sure if you delivered the laptop personally all of it could be yours, including the curtains.

Re:Do the laptops come with cameras?

[donstenk]

Much more likely it is WorldPeace96.

Come on, how old are you??

lolwut

[Anonymous Coward]

So now OLPC comes with windoze and classmates come with Linux? o_O

Tables have turned I gather!

Re:lolwut

[aliquis]

And 2008 is the year of the Linux third world notebook / Linux desktop for children!?!

Re:lolwut

[DrSkwid]

> The machines, rebranded 'Magellan,' will also come with Linux

I tracked down an attribution - with pictures of the device

"This is effectively a second-generation Classmate PC, and integrates a Celeron ULV part and uses Linux, although down the line it is expected to migrate to a fully Atom-based system with a "lighter version of Windows" (whatever that is)."

The Portuguese have also bought 500,000 of the same devices.

Re:lolwut

[Cyclops]

No, they don't. The government assured JP SÃ Couto that they would buy at least 500.000 units.

BTW, JP SÃ Couto was one of the companies that added to the shameful situation in Portugal about Microsoft's OOXML, by only showing up to vote in favour like a good lapdog partner.

This could perhaps be best viewed like a nice reward...

Re:lolwut

[joaommp]

JPSACouto is not much more than a distributor (although one of the largest), why would it be messing up with the voting?

Re:lolwut

[Cyclops]

Because they are friends of Microsoft and that makes them look like good lap dogs?

The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Why order them with Windows when you can just install bootleg copies for free before deploy. You save money,thumb your nose at capitalism and your students gain valuable experience learning to make the OS work firsthand

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[muszek]

How in the world does installing bootleg copies gives anyone a "valuable experience learning to make the OS work firsthand"?

On the other note, I wonder what made them choose Linux. Was it a choice based on merits or did Hugo Chavez'es political stance (anti-US/capitalism) made an impact?

Damn,

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[lysergic.acid]

rational people make rational choices. his socialist stance probably has something to do with his choosing an open source OS based on its merits. i mean, he had no problem ordering laptops from Intel. so i don't think he was trying to make a political statement with this purchase.

and in the interviews i've watched of Chavez, he comes off as a surprisingly intelligent person--i had no idea national leaders could be like that.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[MrNaz]

Because if you can get Windows to work on constrained hardwre like a netbook, then you can make anything work on anything. If you have the skills to make Windows work on a netbook, I bet you can install Solaris on a pair of scissors.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[MrNaz]

The ironic thing is that Chavez is actually a good leader and a very intelligent person, while the western media does its best to make him look foolish. Bush has the mental capacity of a ball peen hammer, but the western media does its best to make him look smart.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[introspekt.i]

and in the interviews i've watched of Chavez, he comes off as a surprisingly intelligent person--i had no idea national leaders could be like that.

Funny, I've watched some interviews of him, too. I think he sounds stark raving mad. I had no idea national leaders could be like that, either. XD

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

People who act in an evil way, use antidemocratic means, and shut down newspapers and demolish public opposition through other means than just words, can also be intelligent.

I think he is intelligent, he just has no morals or qualms.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Zarluk]

Hehe... I bet you've never read Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

Quite different from Camus ;-)

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[puto]

As someone who has relatives in Venezuela, and who has been there before and after the Chavez regime. He is hardly a good leader. Crowd control with rubber bullets and Cuban interregators for those who choose to protest, again that makes a good leader? I was born in the US but have lived in several south american countries. I hold citizen ship in Colombia and Panama due to family ties. Venezuela is much worse for the wear than it was 10 years ago. Chavez funds Farc in Colombia, and as someone who has been on his knees, assault rifle at his head, explaing why he spoke spanish with an american accent, I cannot say anything good about the man, or his peers. Colombia is taking a stand against the guerillas, they are bringing themselves up, and Chavez does not want to have his people see prosperity in democracy when it is right next door. Go to both countries, and tell who is better off.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[lysergic.acid]

well, the wealthy minority may have enjoyed more privileges under the rule of his predecessors, but the majority of Venezuelans are not the ones driving in mercedes or bmws and banging pots and pans in the streets of their upper class suburban neighborhoods.

it's almost farcical watching the anti-Chavez protesters wearing their Gucci sunglasses as they denounce the first leader in Venezuelan history to actually act in the interest of the lower-class majority rather than simply marginalize the poor to cater to the rich.

Chavez should be praised if on for nationalizing the nation's oil resources so that oil profits actually go towards helping the impoverished native citizens rather than line the pockets of overseas oil companies--which is why he's so unpopular in the U.S.--not to mention the fact that literacy rates have increased significantly since his progressive reforms began, and he actually allowed the Venezuelan people to draft their own constitution via mass referendum. and, yes, buying up unused land from the rich and redistributing it amongst the poor to set up food co-ops to feed the local community is such a terrible thing to do. god forbid Venezuelan people actually get to eat.

but maybe he should adopt the American model and simply lock up the poor, or let them die from lack of health care.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Chavez actually uses the profits from his country's oil to help his people. How crazy is that? He should be giving most of the money to Uncle Sam and personally pocketing the rest, as his predecessors did. Now that would be sane.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Alioth]

You have to hand it to him though, he's the only national leader I've ever seen say 'shit' on live TV. (Specifically, 'yanquis de mierda')

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Grishnakh]

but maybe he should adopt the American model and simply lock up the poor, or let them die from lack of health care.

I'm not disagreeing with you about Venezuela's reforms (I really don't know much about the country to be honest), but the above is definitely not the "American model". Poor people here live pretty long lives, and get plenty of healthcare. Unlike normal people, who go to the doctor when they might have a problem, and have to pay via insurance and co-pays, poor people (especially illegal immigrants) go to the ER whenever they have a problem, and get their care for free at the cost of the taxpayer and high hospital bills for everyone else. Obviously, this is a pretty big problem, and I don't really know the solution for it, but to say we let poor people die from lack of healthcare is completely wrong and dishonest.

As for locking them up, many poor people commit crimes, unsurprisingly, so they go to prison. Of course, with the highest per-capita incarceration rate in the world, we're definitely doing something wrong. Personally, I think all non-violent drug offenders should go free and just get a ticket (and marijuana should be legalized); this would go a long way to relieving pressure on our prisons and court systems, as the War on (Some) Drugs is an utter failure, just like Prohibition was an utter failure nearly a century ago. But to say that poor people are being locked up through no fault of their own is also completely wrong and dishonest. They're committing crimes to get there, and these crimes (even the drug offenses, unfortunately) are crimes in most other countries as well, so it's not like we're criminalizing things which are legal everywhere else.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[LocoMan]

That was the second time. First time was shortly after the elections last year (for a new constitution, which he lost), he appeared unnanounced on a military event, which was being transmitted live, and on a speech he made he called the opposition's victory a "shitty victory" (victoria de mierda)

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[genw3st]

I can agree with this... an intelligent response without the liberal ideology that has no bearing on reality. Illegal immigrants, for example, get treated pretty well here - as opposed to most countries. If you have children here - they are considered citizens and you too can become on at that point. Most countries would kick you out. US is no flawless, but most US-bashers don't do anything of merit themselves, and those that do act according to their beliefs are harming the country on average (see liberals).

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[introspekt.i]

I very much enjoyed Chronicle of a Death Foretold. :-D.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[slugicide]

How in the world does installing bootleg copies gives anyone a "valuable experience learning to make the OS work firsthand"?

On the other note, I wonder what made them choose Linux. Was it a choice based on merits or did Hugo Chavez'es political stance (anti-US/capitalism) made an impact?

Damn,

Richard Stallman did it.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[fredmosby]

Chavez should be praised if on for nationalizing the nation's oil resources...

Why should Chavez get credit for that? Venezuela nationalized their oil in 1976. Maybe he's unpopular in the U.S. because he blames all of Venezuela's problems on us.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Walkingshark]

god forbid Venezuelan people actually get to eat.

Ever since his price controls went into effect, certain staple foods have become harder and harder to find. Milk is hit or miss, same with eggs and the like. Hugo is a weird case, he seems to be trying to do some good things, but unfortunately his actions are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and economics, much in the same way that opposite end of the spectrum small government no-regulation types do.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Zarluk]

Then I don't understand how you we are surprised with Chavez... it's just his dramatic, almost operatic (and a little surrealistic, too) way of speaking ;-)

Belive me, he does not eat babies at breakfast ;-)

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Artemis3]

See these:
Venezuela's National Strike
Venezuela Kubuntu -- must read
The Venezuelan Educational System
Venezuela Embraces Linux and Open Source Software, but Faces Challenges
Venezuela - Stepping Forward With Debian
Enterprise Unix Roundup: Oracle's Open World
Trollparty in Caracas during World Social Forum
Free software liberates Venezuela
Free Software: Technological Democratization?
No More Microsoft blood in the veins of the Venezuela
Free Software Developers program continues successfully
Open standard Venezuelan law definition

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Artemis3]

Well if Mr. Bush didn't decide to forbid weapon and military sales to Venezuela, we wouldn't have turned to Russia and China to replace our obsolete american equipment. Don't come crying later if we favor China and India for oil exports later, thats how brilliant the Bush administration handles foreign policy.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Artemis3]

I think you switched your thoughts, as someone who is living in Venezuela right now will tell you. The cuban interrogators, torturers and murderers were right here before Chavez; those cubans are the ones committing atrocities from Miami to the american continent, among them the infamous CIA backed terrorist Luis Posada Carriles.

If only a mild of your fiction was true, and you were actually pointed a gun to your head, you would be dead now. Just like your precious colombian government supported para-military narco groups and have done for decades. I agree with the go to both countries first challenge, but i hope you don't get killed in Colombia if you dare raise your voice against "democracy" (ie. Alvaro Uribe /Juan Santos Calderón).

Chavez sending money to Farc? What for? Don't they make buttloads of money with narcotics? Or are you implying the Colombian government lies? We were very busy succeeding in humanitarian rescue efforts combined with France and various countries while your beloved colombian government was killing their leaders risking the lives of hundreds of kidnapped people. In fact closing all future chances with the last operation by using fake red cross and telesur logos.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Artemis3]

Can you tell me where you don't find milk or eggs? With each attempt of the rich to try and hide goods and food in a futile attempt to force price rises, our government has reacted with speed and corrected the situation, importing and or purchasing private companies to produce those foods if needed, and distribute them directly to the people or thru the state owned Mercal chain of supply. So no, you can't force anything with your lousy power anymore and this is what you hate the most. So no wonder you'll never like someone like Chavez putting the power directly in the hands of the people and away from the corporate rich.

The current situation of food supply in Venezuela is of full availability, and as soon as something disturbs this, there is quick and swift reaction of the state to put the private sector in check. If you don't like to work like this, you are welcome to sell and leave, we will take care of the business thank you very much, goodbye.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Artemis3]

So what is told in SiCKO by Michael Moore is full of lies and noone of it true? Even the 9/11 rescuers being denied treatment and having to go, omg, to ~socialist Cuba~ for treatment risking getting in trouble with US laws in exchange of their lives?

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Artemis3]

Oh? And the neo-liberal fashion of selling all state owned companies including PDVSA was an illusion? Did they not attempted destruction of the company when the "state owned" PDVSA refused to take instructions or auditory from that very same state in 2002? You know, that is the very reason you never achieve anything, you still think of us like idiots, when its your failed model the very reason you are now out.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Gavagai80]

I think he sounds stark raving mad. I had no idea national leaders could be like that

You must not have seen a national leader before. Most of them are like that.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Artemis3]

I am still waiting for the first shutting down of newspaper, really. "El Nacional" is a CIA backed pamphlet. Without US tax payed money, it would have gone bankrupt as its so full of lies few cares to buy anymore.

And i am still waiting for the closing of RCTV. Why is that horrid tv station still operating like its nothing? Well, at least they are not polluting our PUBLIC airwaves anymore, but seriously, they have committed many illegal acts. There is no justice in Venezuela, the rich still have too much power, too many criminals still free and conspiring against our lives and against the state.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Grishnakh]

Since I haven't seen this movie, perhaps you'd care to enlighten us about the allegations made in it?

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that anyone, especially 9/11 rescuers, has been denied necessary treatment in the USA. That simply doesn't happen here. If you have an emergency medical condition, you can go to any ER and be treated, regardless of your ability to pay. It's a big problem since some people choose not to insure themselves, and become a drain on the system, but that's beside the point. No one in the USA is going to be refused treatment for something like a heart attack or a broken leg.

Now, if you're referring to a specific treatment that isn't normally part of ER medicine, you may have a point. People needing, for instance, expensive drug cocktails to delay their dying of AIDS do not get that treatment here for free. Is that right? I don't know, honestly; I think anyone who's paid for insurance should certainly get any medically necessary treatments short of cosmetic surgery, but for uninsured, indigent people, while I think there should be a certain level of treatment provided, we simply can't afford to provide top-notch healthcare to everyone. We're quickly finding out that our economy is on the brink of disaster, and our paying for all kinds of other crap (like a stupid war over nonexistent WMDs) is bankrupting us. But again, this is beside the point; the point is, while you are sure to get any immediately necessary medical treatment here in the USA (like if you are a trauma case), there are some very expensive, not-immediately necessary treatments you won't get for free. If this is what these 9/11 rescuers were asking for, I can understand why they didn't get it. It sucks, and our healthcare system could definitely use some type of reforms to keep costs under control, but to say that poor people are simply allowed to die is a distortion of the truth, and quite frankly a lie. If you get in a car wreck and require emergency treatment, you will not find an ER in the country that will turn you away. It's against Federal law.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[vandan]

Crowd control with rubber bullets

Settle down dude. We get far worse than that here in Australia. Chemical weapons, tasers, and generally beaten up. And I think the rubber bullets would be for controlling a riot-type situation ...

Chavez funds Farc in Colombia

So? The US funded the Taliban. I think Chavez's support of Farc is far more defensible than the US's funding of the Taliban. Want an example closer to home? How about 9/11, 1973? Don't tell me you've 'forgotten' about that?

Colombia is taking a stand against the guerillas

Bullshit. Columbia has done exactly what the US has told it to do, and has done so with weapons the US has given them.

and Chavez does not want to have his people see prosperity in democracy when it is right next door

Are you fucking serious man? Prosperity? In Columbia? You're a fucking loony tune. Columbia is the definition of abject poverty. The reason so many people are in the drug trade in Columbia is that there are NO other options AT ALL. And what does the corrupt dictatorship do for in response? It doesn't help out these farmers. It sprays poisons on the crops and families. It assaults them with US-sourced Apache gunships. It kills and maims it's own people. And you have the audacity to talk about prosperity! WTF?

Go to both countries, and tell who is better off

Been there, done that. Venezuela is pumping LOTS of money from publicly owned assets back into infrastructure and social programs. This means Venezuela is constantly improving. Literacy rates are sky-rocketing. The poor are actually being lifted out of poverty. In Colombia, the poor are being poisened, bombed, shot at, etc. It's no comparison really.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[vandan]

Anyone who calls Dubya 'The Devil' can't be 100% insane. What interview(s) are you referring to? I've also checked out some stuff on Youtube and Chavez seems to be one of the most intelligent leaders I've seen in ages.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[vandan]

He didn't renew the license for a private TV station which openly advocated assassinating him and launching a coup. Frankly I think he showed massive restraint. If any media outlet here tried the same, they wouldn't just find it difficult to *renew* their license ... they'd loose their license immediately.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you've never heard of George W. Bush?

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[MrResistor]

You really should see the movie, because you are making bad assumptions from a position of ignorance. The basic gist, though, is that the insurance companies get to decide what is medically necessary and what is not, and their decisions tend to be based on money, not medicine.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[MrResistor]

It was true, but the people he featured weren't poor, they were middle class. You see, here in America we take from the middle class and give to the rich and the poor.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[fredmosby]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. PDVSA was never sold, and was always government controlled. When workers went on strike because they didn't like Chavez's new policies, Chavez fired them and hired loyal workers. He called that 're-nationalization' but the oil wells were always owned by the government. None of this has anything to do with the US, except that Chavez blamed the US for Venezuelan workers going on strike.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other note, I wonder what made them choose Linux. Was it a choice based on merits or did Hugo Chavez'es political stance (anti-US/capitalism) made an impact?

Damn,

Sure it was. Installing Linux has been for me the best and most beneficial anti-imperialist statement

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[rtb61]

The most pathetic thing about all this, is the total failure of the current US administration in every area it gets involved in. Take those world leader meetings between the hockey puck mom running mate and, those pathetic sock puppet governments.

Columbia it's drug problems and it is all the surrounding countries fault not the fault of US administration who is in charge, Iraq and it's terrorists problems and it is the surrounding countries fault and not the fault US administration who is in charge, Georgia and it's premeditated murder of sanctioned peace keepers and it is the surrounding countries fault and not the fault of the current US administration who is in charge.

Those three set piece publicity stunts where a damning indictment of the current US administration's corruption and incompetence. The only world (what a joke) leaders willing to be so shamefully used in a third rate publicity stunt, an embarrassment to themselves and their countries and to the US government.

Venezuela's efforts in advancing their technological adoption and bridging the digital divide is commendable and could only be improved upon by working with their neighbouring countries to create local ODM facilities so rather than buying in the technology, as much as possible is manufactured locally this of course would partner well with their likely contributions to FOSS software that are bound to result from their adoption of it.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

but to say that poor people are simply allowed to die is a distortion of the truth, and quite frankly a lie.

It's probably fair to say that everyone will get immediate life saving treatment. But if you have a long term condition which deteriorates over time and leads to an early death, you probably won't get the right treatment and will die prematurely, which is pretty close to 'allowing the poor to die'. Also there was a recent well publisized case where a guy had to choose which of two severed fingers to have reattached because he couldn't afford both. Very civilized.
As for not being able to afford it, other countries manage to spend a smaller percentage of GDP on healthcare than the US and still provide comprehensive care of a good standard for everyone. So that just about turns the question round to 'can the US afford its current system as opposed to a cheaper and more effective comprehensive system?'.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Chavez should be praised if on for nationalizing the nation's oil resources so that oil profits actually go towards helping the impoverished native citizens rather than line the pockets of overseas oil companies--which is why he's so unpopular in the U.S.

I'm not really up on Venezuela, but generally speaking with nationalized industries you seem to get lower productivity over time. It would seem to me that an equally valid method of helping the impoverished would be to tax the oil companies (foreign or otherwise, whichever is more efficient) to provide the same level of return as you would expect the nationalized companies to return. The money for the poor would be the same, but you'd benefit in the long term from the accumulated expertise of the companies.
The feeling I get is that Chavez would prefer to have a bogeyman (the US) to stir up nationalist sentiment; not unlike the terrorist bogeymen Bush has used for years.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever since his price controls went into effect, certain staple foods have become harder and harder to find. Milk is hit or miss, same with eggs and the like. Hugo is a weird case, he seems to be trying to do some good things, but unfortunately his actions are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and economics, much in the same way that opposite end of the spectrum small government no-regulation types do.

Yeah that might be the case. Now the poor people allso have money to pay for milk and eggs so there is not enought products to go around for everybody.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[An Onerous Coward]

Workers didn't go on strike. They were locked out by upper management (who sabotaged the refineries as they left, and who were rightly the target of the bulk of the firings). There was an unholy alliance where the international oil companies were making a relative handful of Venezuelans extremely wealthy, in exchange for cheap access to oil. So in a way, blaming America for the "strike" (actually a lockout by the recipients of all that money) isn't far-fetched.

You are correct that the PDVSA was always government-owned. The actions Chavez took involved canceling the contracts of the multinationals. But the effects were similar to a true renationalization.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Grishnakh]

That's only IF you have a long-term condition. If you (or whoever the previous poster was) had said, "allowing the poor to die if and only if they have a long-term deteriorating condition", then I would have let that stand. That's very different from just saying "allowing the poor to die", which is a distortion of the truth.

I'm not arguing for our healthcare system here; it's pretty obvious to everyone that it's broken. But don't make it out to be worse than it is. It's not like living in parts of Africa where you're just going to die if you have any medical problems.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[An Onerous Coward]

Your response, as I understand it is, "If you're actually dying, you can get emergency room health care! Woo! USA!"

The fact that you can get treatment doesn't invalidate the fact that (unless you're fortunate enough to already be so broke that nobody will get money from you) the hospital is going to come after you for some huge bills. Which you can't afford. Because you're already too broke to afford health insurance. This can force someone living on the brink straight on into bankruptcy, at which point the taxpayers often end up footing the bill.

It makes more sense (to my wonky-liberal mind, at least) to make sure that everybody who wants health care can get it, in a non-punitive fashion. It's better for the country, because we would have a healthier and more productive workforce. It makes sense for the hospitals, who don't have their ERs tied up with problems that could have been treated more effectively with earlier diagnosis. It makes sense for companies, many of whom are going broke trying to provide benefits (or simply scaling those benefits back).

Nobody (plus or minus 5%) is asking for "top notch health care for everybody," and if that's your impression, then you've been misled. Proponents -- the reasonable ones, anyways -- are just asking for basic, prevention-focused care. What that specifically constitutes is going to be subject to intense debate. So is the best way to achieve that goal. But please keep in mind what, exactly, the goal is.

Re: Sicko. The 9/11 relief workers got severe respiratory problems as a result of working at Ground Zero, from breathing the toxic dust.* While they had private insurance, their claims got rejected. They showed up in Cuba, and got the medical care they needed, free. Dollar for dollar, Cuba's health care system is probably the best in the world.

* Christine Todd Whitman, Bush's EPA director at the time, told the relief crews that it was safe. It wasn't.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[An Onerous Coward]

Are you saying that we don't deport illegal immigrants?

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Grishnakh]

Your response, as I understand it is, "If you're actually dying, you can get emergency room health care! Woo! USA!"

No, my response is "If you actually require emergency treatment, you can get ER health care! So any statements that poor people are simply left to die are false."

The fact that you can get treatment doesn't invalidate the fact that (unless you're fortunate enough to already be so broke that nobody will get money from you) the hospital is going to come after you for some huge bills. Which you can't afford. Because you're already too broke to afford health insurance. This can force someone living on the brink straight on into bankruptcy, at which point the taxpayers often end up footing the bill.

Sorry, but that's all wrong too. If you're broke, yes, they're not going to get any money from you. But even if you have money, no one can force you to pay bills you can or can't afford. They can even take you to court (which costs a lot in legal fees) and get a judgment, and still not force you to pay. This is a basic legal reality here in the USA. If you own a house, however, they can put a lien on your home, so they get paid if you sell it. And the judgment will seriously screw up your credit score. But they cannot force you to pay, ever. This is why civil actions against private individuals in the USA are frequently useless; unless that person actually cares about their credit score, or wants to sell their home (and has one) in the next 7 years, it's usually pointless to pursue a money judgment against them.

People like this may go into bankruptcy because they want to keep their home, and their ability to sell their home and buy another one (in case they need to move for work, etc.), since bankruptcy allows them to discharge these debts.

Now, as for the rest of your rant, that's really all beside the point. I've already said our healthcare system is royally screwed up. Anyone with half a brain can see that. I just don't appreciate overblown dramaticisms such as "we let poor people simply die", when it simply isn't true. There's tons of people getting all kinds of free healthcare in ERs because the ERs are not allowed to discharge them without treatment. Of course, the taxpayer ends up footing the bill. If we let poor people simply die, and never gave out any free treatment, our healthcare system wouldn't be in the mess that it's in. Of course, would we be able to live with that on our conscience?

If you want to advocate a better healthcare system, making false statements intended for an emotional response is not going to help your case.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[fredmosby]

PDVSA is government owned, US payments go to the Venezuelan government, and the government determines how the payments are to be distributed. Claims that it was caused by the US are far fetched, because the US didn't have the influence it would take to cause the 'labor stoppage'. It seems more likely that it happened because Chavez's planned oil production cutbacks would put some oil workers out of work. Workers don't like the threat of having to find a new job. Managers don't like the reduction in status from managing a smaller number of people.

If I were president of Venezuela I would have fired the workers too. That doesn't change the fact that it was an internal problem. Firing striking workers tends to be unpopular, so Chavez claimed that the people he fired were working with the US.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[LWATCDR]

Not very often. I am actually more liberal than most when it comes to illegals. I would like to see ways for them to become documented and stay.
If they where documented they couldn't be so easy to exploit and under pay. As a whole they are not here for welfare but to honestly make a better life for themselves.
The US really doesn't go whole hog to catch illegals. Local police don't even really try very hard well not very often anyway.
Let's face it the US and Mexican boarder has been pretty open for a long time. I just would like to see them come here legally and not get exploited.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Walkingshark]

I'm just telling it how it has been for me when I was in-country before. And look, I don't know if you're working for the party or not, but you surely sound like you are, and essentially you just sound like you're repeating party approved propaganda. I'm sure it goes over well with your commisar, but it isn't going to impress people here in the real world. Tighten up your prose.

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said that it's real democracy in USA? The Bush's regime creates the opposite leaders such as Chavez

Re:The benefits of not ordering with Windows

[An Onerous Coward]

Tell you what. You show me where an uninsured person with, say, cancer, can go into an emergency room and demand the treatment that will keep them from dying six months down the line (not just for the next week). Then we'll talk about how the Great American Health Care System doesn't simply let people die.

Made up or unsourced quotes?

[1u3hr]

This paragraph in the submission:

"The machines, rebranded 'Magellan,' will also come with Linux pre-installed as opposed to Windows XP. This order alone is 50% bigger than the entire OLPC project has managed to sell worldwide."

But despite the quotemarks, this is NOT in TFA. No mention of Linux, or the name "Magellan". Hopefully the anonymous submitter didn't just make it up, it would be nice the source was cited. We all know how carefully Slashdot is in vetting its articles, after all, so I'm sure it's all verifiable.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[zeraeiro]

Part is true. I'm from Portugal and all over the media you hear everyday everywhere "The first Portuguese computer ever made (...)". They don't even mention it's a Intel Classmate. http://ww1.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?headline=98&visual=25&article=356756&tema=29 Not sure about the scale of the order in comparison to OLPC.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[The Dotmeister]

Actually the name isn't "Magellan" but "Magalhães", and it dual boots (at least in Portugal) Windows XP and Linux CaixaMágica (a portuguese distro) as you can see here http://www.eescolinha.gov.pt/equipamento.html.
It's being sold to kids in primary school for 50 euros and it comes with an option for mobile internet, which you can buy from mobile carriers. If you're not a primary school student, well you've got to pay 285 euros for one.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Anonymous Coward]

The name has been translated, the portuguese name is "Magalhaes" (actually there should be a "~" above the second "a", but when I post it looks strange, damn language coding confusions).

There are news here http://waterseven.universebox.com/?p=128, here http://sol.sapo.pt/PaginaInicial/Economia/Interior.aspx?content_id=109149 and here http://www.correiomanha.pt/noticia.aspx?contentid=604E90A9-501B-4A0B-AB89-67561B30D7B1&channelid=00000011-0000-0000-0000-000000000011.

All in portuguese. You can try to autotranslate and become even more confused.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[weetabeex]

Indeed, Intel Classmate was rebranded 'Magellan' in Portugal for some government funded laptops for students. I wonder if it really will be rebranded the same in Venezuela.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Chemicalscum]

Here we are in Portugese from a Portugese IT site is says that Magellan will be sold to Venezuela with Canaimo Linux installed:

"na Venezuela o sistema operativo Canaima (baseado em Linux)"

http://ciberia.aeiou.pt/?st=10098

Linux is the operating system of the Bolivarian Revolution.

"Canaima is a GNU / Linux distribution based on Debian which is emerging as a solution to meet the needs of end users office of the Venezuelan National Public Administration (APN) and to comply with the presidential decree no. 3.390 sobre el uso de TecnologÃas Libres en la APN. 3390 on the use of Open Technologies in APN."

http://canaima.softwarelibre.gob.ve/

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[PopeRatzo]

It's being sold to kids in primary school for 50 euros and it comes with an option for mobile internet, which you can buy from mobile carriers. If you're not a primary school student, well you've got to pay 285 euros for one.

Proof that Hugo Chavez is a dangerous Commie terrorist like the Bush administration says.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[blind biker]

It's being sold to kids in primary school for 50 euros and it comes with an option for mobile internet, which you can buy from mobile carriers. If you're not a primary school student, well you've got to pay 285 euros for one.

The little I know about Portuguese culture brings me to expect a lot of these machines will be sold for %= EUR, but not to kids only. There's ways to abuse the system, and I suspect it will be abused.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[lysergic.acid]

oh c'mon. you don't think if the same deal were offered in the U.S., U.K., or any other western nation that you wouldn't also have people abusing the system?

i mean, 285 euros is pretty affordable for most Americans, but i still see people going into stores to buy these for their "kids" and then just keeping the laptop for themselves. consumers want the best deal possible as well. that's the flip side of capitalism.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[blind biker]

It's just more likely to happen in Portugal than in Sweden or Finland. I don't know enough about the US to say one way or the other. And in fact, the post you are attacking does not mention anything regarding the US.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[lysergic.acid]

it doesn't have to. i'm pointing out that you're attributing a universal human trait to the Portuguese people. either you're incredibly naive or just incredibly self deluded. i guarantee it's just as likely to happen in Sweden or Finland or any other nation for that matter as it is to happen in Portugal. the likelihood of people abusing the system for a better deal is 100% in any capitalist country.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[The Dotmeister]

The little I know about Portuguese culture brings me to expect a lot of these machines will be sold for %= EUR, but not to kids only. There's ways to abuse the system, and I suspect it will be abused.

There's always ways to abuse the system, but as far as I know, to be eligible to buy one for 50 euros you need to go into your kids school, fill a form, wait for verification and then wait for a notice to receive your "Magalhães".

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[blind biker]

I think it's you who is naive, if you think it's just as likely to happen in Sweden or Finland. Your naivity can be explained with lack of knowledge. I have lived in various parts of Europe, and have lived for almost 40 years. And I have seen the level of corruption in southern and eastern europe. I have learned the various cultural traits of the people of Europe. Each has its pros and cons. I just prefer living in Finland, after seeing the rest. A culture that leads to corruption also leads to a weaker economy (which may or may not be important for you) and a general lack of order and accountability. It's really stupid to say that there are no cultural differences between countries, and that those cultural differences don't contribute to certain behavioural patterns - like, for example, gaming the system. I was born in a country where everyone tries to game the system, to screw up his/her fellow. I have seen other countries, seen shades of grey. One can see a lot of stuff, if he/she travels and lives in various places in his/her lifetime, like I did.

But you know what: your kind of delusion is popular around here. A lot of people who are just as naive as you are. So, you're preaching to the choir and perhaps you get kicks out of that. You're still wrong, though. There are differences between cultures, differences conducive to behavioural patterns, whether that fits into your worldview or not.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[lysergic.acid]

did i say there were no cultural differences? i'm simply saying that the trait you're describing is a universal _human_ trait, not a Portuguese one.

granted, i've never traveled to Europe, but i've traveled to different parts of Asia and spent a significant part of my life outside of the U.S. i've even spent most of childhood adjusting to the cultural differences between Taiwan and the United States. i know very well how different cultural values can affect a society's development. but some things are constant. as much as you'd like to look down on another society for what you perceive as cultural shortcomings, people are generally more alike than they are different. we're just socialized to not see the corruption which goes on in our own society. that is the result of your cultural lens.

some governments are indeed more corrupt than others, but people in capitalist societies possess certain traits regardless of what culture they were raised in. do you honestly think that greed and corruption are distinctly Portuguese characteristics? you don't think Swedish or Finnish CEOs embezzle from their companies or exploit the economic system to their advantage?

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Zarluk]

Well, the GP was talking about Portugal (the prices he cited are the portuguese ones), not Venuzuela.

Re: made up or unsourced quotes?

[rs232]

"Part is true. I'm from Portugal and all over the media you hear everyday everywhere"

Seeing as you are from Portugal, do you mind providing a translation for these:

"O portátil português aguenta bombardeamentos", quem o diz é Hugo Chávez. O polémico presidente fez o teste, deixou cair um exemplar ao chão, e diz-se fã do portátil português a baixo custo. Um milhão de máquinas vão ser adquiridas pela Venezuela

O disco rígido está particionado, sendo que 10GB são para o Linux Caixa Mágica, 10GB para o Windows XP e 10GB para os dados do utilizador que assim ficam disponíveis para ambos os sistemas operativos

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[donstenk]

. I was born in a country where everyone tries to game the system, to screw up his/her fellow

Are you Italian or Nigerian?

Just kidding, I live in Southern Italy currently but have lived in Sweden and my wife is Swedish.

I agree with you and my wife too. ;-).

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[donstenk]

you don't think Swedish or Finnish CEOs embezzle from their companies or exploit the economic system to their advantage

.

Actually, no. Or at the very least an awful lot less. The culture is more about long term stability as opposed to immediate personal gain. It has something to do with the way people are brought up in school, history, the political system and perhaps even the weather. Together we are stronger - that kind of thing.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[JohnnyBGod]

Not 100%. As a Portuguese, I have to say, we have, in general, a knack for abusing free/really cheap stuff. For example, the concept of those newspaper boxes, the ones you open and take only ONE newspaper, is inconceivable, here.

On the other hand, and unrelatedly, sanity is usually above the law, here, which I think is a good thing.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[blind biker]

This is what you said:

i guarantee it's just as likely to happen in Sweden or Finland or any other nation for that matter as it is to happen in Portugal.

I copy/pasted this quote verbatim from your post in which you tried to refute me

So you have never been to Europe, but you "guarantee that it's just as likely to happen" in countries you have never been to, than in another country you have never been to - let alone lived in.
To any neutral observer will, at this point, be clear that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. But that's OK, because there's little to no neutral observers around here, so your BS gets a pass.

Also, notice that I said every culture has its pros and cons , so I don't look down on one or the other - just point out differences in one aspect, an aspect that for me is important, hence I decided to live in Finland - after having lived in many European countries. Another contry I could settle in is Norway, for example, for the same reasons.

Re: made up or unsourced quotes?

[Zarluk]

Here's a translation for you:

"The portuguese laptop will survive bombing", says Hugo Chávez. The polemic president done the test, dropping one on the floor, and says he's a fan of the lowcost porttuguese(sic) laptop. Venezuela will buy a million machines.

The hard disk is partionated with 10GB for Caixa Mágica Linux, 10GB dor Windows XP and 10GB for user data, available to both operating systems.

Note: I've only heard of 500 000 laptops being sold to Venezuela.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[blind biker]

do you honestly think that greed and corruption are distinctly Portuguese characteristics? you don't think Swedish or Finnish CEOs embezzle from their companies or exploit the economic system to their advantage?

I don't like it when people distort my words, especially in such flagrant way. I did not say corruption is a distinct Portuguese characteristic. I said it's more likely to happen in Portugal than Finland or Sweden.

Finnish, Swedish or Norwegian CEOs are less likely to embezzle or corrupt, or be corrupted (you can argue that it's all the same) than one from southern Italy, Spain or Bosnia. And the interesting thing is, most Italians, Spaniards or Bosnians will admit that, themselves.

I probably would have more fun at a party in Bosnia (for example) than in Finland, I generally connect easier with people from southern contries, because they are more extrovert, so it's easier to make friends. But for everyday life, Finland is much less stressful.

But don't believe me: ask the thousands of italians or hundreds of spaniards that live here in Finland. Heck, there's even a poster in this thread that will tell you so.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Deus.1.01]

Maybe, but even if there were a study proving 80% of Portugese are either this or that, i would rather know a Portugese individual FIRST HAND before i go on judging him.

This kind of cultural determinism makes me cringe.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Anonymous Coward]

we're just socialized to not see the corruption which goes on in our own society. that is the result of your cultural lens.

And you're socialized to see corruption in every society, and that is the result of your social lens.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Anonymous Coward]

The little I know about Portuguese culture brings me to expect a lot of these machines will be sold for %= EUR, but not to kids only. There's ways to abuse the system, and I suspect it will be abused.

The way you talk about Portugal makes me think you have some issues with the Portuguese.
As for _your opinion_ about how the Portuguese behave, Transparency Internacional ranks Portugal in the 29th place, out of 180 countries in a list of corruption perception. Denmark is #1 and USA is #20.
So... What does the list tell you about the Portuguese culture?

P.S. - The list: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[laddiebuck]

As he's tried to explain to you, it's not that they don't, it's a question of how often, of percentages. Societal traits of behaviour manifest themselves as percentages. In America, you're more likely to have credit card debt; in Ireland you're more likely to be an alcoholic; in Germany you're more likely to be punctual; in Romania you're more likely to bribe; whatever.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[jbernardo]

Or maybe he is Portuguese? I am, and fully agree with blind biker's views. We have full scale, widely known corruption here. We have a soccer club that is known to have bought referees, politicians, police, jugdes and newspaper writers for over 25 years, and when convicted everyone in charge just lied so that it wouldn't be punished by UEFA; we have a justice system that punishes the poor and protects the rich - companies can even bill you for breaching of contract expenses for a contract you never signed, and it will cost you more to go to court than to pay; politicians and VIPs are involved in a pedofilia scandal, and after more than five years nobody was convicted yet and proof has been destroyed; we have "mayors" that are known to be corrupt, have fled justice, just to be pardoned and re-elected the day she returned to Portugal; we have seen murderers be released on a technicality just to fly away when justice went looking for them; we have a justice system that survived from the fascist regime without being changed in any way. We have a region where there are more Ferraris than in Modena, but where factories close every day and most people are below poverty level. People here are proud of avoiding to pay taxes! So, why do you think that people won't abuse the system and do every scam they can think of to buy these cheap laptops even cheaper?

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[kesuki]

"i'm simply saying that the trait you're describing is a universal _human_ trait,"

you've never met a 30 year old with the intelligence of a 2 year old have you?

my aunt and uncle both worked with the developmentally disabled and i can tell you right now, greed is a LEARNED behavior. people without the capacity to learn don't even understand that other people can lie and cheat them, or even how to take care of their personal needs. this is why they wind up institutionalized.

i can 100% guarantee you greed is not hard wired into the brain. learned traits can be suppressed, at least by healthy people.

in order for something to be a universal trait it must be hard wired into the brain or the DNA of EVERY human being. greed, a vice, is not universal. your argument that 'everyone is greedy' is a justification for your own person misbehavior. it's like some sick justification for rape like 'everyone wants to have sex.' or maybe more like 'justifying' the removal of mountain tops to burn coal because 'everyone wants cheap electricity.'

you're justifying greed. plain and simple, justification is just one way of circumventing having a sensible superego. you're bypassing part of your own brains internal functions designed to make society work. it just makes me wonder what the hell you do with your time that you're filling your superego full of trash like "everyone would steal from their child's educational future if they knew they could make $100 cash off the deal"

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Anonymous Coward]

The little I know about Portuguese culture brings me to expect a lot of these machines will be sold for %= EUR, but not to kids only. There's ways to abuse the system, and I suspect it will be abused.

I think you are being just rude and offensive to the Portuguese people..

This is just onother step that wil lbring to students from 1rst to 6 grade, an a program that exists at almost 3 years, called "e-escolas" (e-schools), where students from 7 to 12 grade could buy laptops like Asus X50 SL, or Toshiba L300 (Dual core T2410, 3GB RAM, 320 GB HDD, etc.. etc...) by 150 Euros, plus a 3G connection by 17Euros/mount, with a 3 year contract.. Or just for free (Laptop + 3G connection) to kids with less money.. And I don't see that program being abused by no one..

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just more likely to happen in Portugal than in Sweden or Finland. I don't know enough about the US to say one way or the other. And in fact, the post you are attacking does not mention anything regarding the US.

I'm an economist and they way it's seen in economics is that as long as the benefits outweigh the risks people will always try to commit a violation. regardless of weather you're in Finland the U.S. or Portugal.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[tehcyder]

There's always ways to abuse the system, but as far as I know, to be eligible to buy one for 50 euros you need to go into your kids school, fill a form, wait for verification and then wait for a notice to receive your "Magalhães".

Yes, but that's easily bypassed by setting up a fake ID, smuggling yourself into the country disguised as a donkey, kidnapping a child, drugging it like a zombie, registering it in a school for a few weeks, turning up as the "parent" to get your cheap laptop, then escaping the country by hijacking a 747 and parachuting out of it while it's over the middle of the Atlantic.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[fsmunoz]

Now that the topic has almost died let me say that I disagree somewhat with the term "Portuguese culture" used in this sense, although I see the logic of you use of it and don't especially disagree with what you are trying to convey.

As for the system abuse, well, it will be probably be more abused than, say Denmark or Sweden (never visited Finland to have an opinion) but not substantially different from the UK or even Germany - at least not in this specific situation, since in others I would also agree that the lack of general accountability that grasses around here - and which is in my mind one of the legacies of the 80's EU admission, ot at least made worse by it - makes systemic abuse easier than in some other countries.

All in all however you comments hold, and while I can disagree with the way you put it (the "Portuguese culture" thing makes it something almost omnipresent while the current state of affairs are mostly a last 40 years kind of thing, due to several reasons) I think it is fair to say that *when comparing to some specific other countries* the potential for abuse will be higher.

In this particular situation I must say however that the checks used are at least sufficient to prevent any "serious" abuse: the school enrolment certificate must be presented and there are a number of computer-based checks.

Re:Made up or unsourced quotes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it? Humm...

political title - now make it work

[xzvf]

Technology in education has a great deal of potential when you put a computer in each kids hands. The important part is ~$300 million is being spent on hardware. How much will the national government spend on infrastructure that will make it a success. Teacher training and lesson plans, maintenance and support, internet access.... It could be political, your kid now has a computer, but I doubt it will be a success as an educational tool without spending another chunk of money on making it work. By the way OLPC is the reason the classmate exists, and while some zealots will be angry that it isn't their piece of hardware, the real supporters of the OLPC project's mission will be happy to hear this.

Re:political title - now make it work

[QuantumG]

Kids don't need teachers.

Re:political title - now make it work

[Anonymous Coward]

"We don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. No more dark sarcasm in the class-room. Hey, teacher, leave the kids alone."

Re:political title - now make it work

[carvalhao]

The agreement of the Portuguese government with the Venezuelan gorvernment includes consulting services to set up the teaching infrastructure which, considering that Portugal already has deployed such a program, may cut some of the program's rough edges.

OLPC

[Eukariote]

This order alone is 50% bigger than the entire OLPC project has managed to sell worldwide.

And guess who is to blame for OLPC failing to gain much traction? http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4472654.ece Yes, Intel mostly. Can't allow there to be so many AMD chips out there...

Re:OLPC

[westlake]

And guess who is to blame for OLPC failing to gain much traction?
.

The OLPC's target audience was the third-world education minister - a market an inch wide and a mile deep.

The product was a laptop tied to a constructivist philosophy of education straight out of the western media lab.

Fundamentally the old idea of the teacher-proof classroom - spruced up a bit with a light FOSS shine.

The UI and applications were distant from what a child would see in the higher grades or outside the classroom.

That becomes a problem for the minister trying to give his kids a boost-up into secondary education or vocational training.

The Intel Classmate is a business-like "non-sectarian" laptop for the education market and that is its appeal.

Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Portuguese concerned about the education of the young and concerned about the economy, I must that these Magellan computers (named after Ferdinand Magellan, a very famous portuguese maritime explorer) are nothing but a huge scam based on portuguese tax holders. We are talking about a 900 MHz refurbished Intel Classmate PC that is both ugly, heavy, and marketed as "built in Portugal", which is _not_! And the choice of operating systems is appalling! We can either stick with Window XP or Caixa Mágica, a portuguese GNU/Linux distribution that is horribly produced, horrible to use, horrible to maintain, but thrown around at every state sponsored GNU/Linux deployment. No wonder people dislike GNU/Linux after using Caixa Mágica...

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[edsousa]

Me too... Yesterday I was arguing with my dad telling him: "IT IS NOT the computers that will make kids smart!"
You probably don't know, but the current government offers these computers to kids in elementary school (those from low income families) as also some other conventional laptops (read: 500USD laptops) to kids in medium and high school.
But the truth is that year after year, kids get more stupid.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[aussie_a]

, I must that these Magellan computers (named after Ferdinand Magellan, a very famous portuguese maritime explorer)

Yeah we all know who he is. There's a Civilization Wonder named after him (Magellen's Expedition, increases the amount ships can move per turn).

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[16384]

Well, our prime minister thinks he can jump start our economy, and get us into the new technological era by throwing computers around. This is not the first laptop plan this government tried, and I think it'll mostly be wasted money. The sad part is that we lack the money to do some really important things, but at the same time we blow millions at the drop of the hat on things like this, or the deal with MIT, as if it would magically solve everything.

To make everything worse is the amount of propaganda going around here about the first portuguese computer!!! People, it's just a rebranded Intel Classmate that will be assembled here! The amount of propaganda shoveled by every single media outlet is preposterous. They just amplified what the government said, without any fact checking whatsoever...

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[SL Baur]

You probably don't know, but the current government offers these computers to kids in elementary school (those from low income families) as also some other conventional laptops (read: 500USD laptops) to kids in medium and high school.
But the truth is that year after year, kids get more stupid.

You can blame some of that on television, the rest of it on poor education one way or another.

The most valuable education I ever got was sitting down with a friend in HS to write a development system. I wrote the editor, he wrote the assembler (and later rewrote the editor in assembly language instead of binary patching with the Apple "mini-assembler").

I would not want to sit down in front of one of today's computers and learn the assembly language via a data sheet like I did with the 6502. In some ways, our technology has gotten backwards and "advances" in programming haven't been.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[fireboy1919]

I know for a different reason.

All the best stuff I know I learned from cartoons.

Turns out that I'd never heard "Get Along, Little Doggie" before that, either.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[blind biker]

Why was this post modded flamebait? It was just stating something the OP feels to be a fact. And I tend to agree - kids are, actually, getting stupider. At least in western countries.

Stupider in the sense of knowing less than previous generations, and at the same time being less curious about the world they recently inhabit, while quick gratification and shallowness are the hit.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

First, as a Portuguese i'm pleased to see my taxes being put on child education rather than football stages for Euro 2004.
Second, Magalhães is built in Portugal but i'm sure your would prefer OLPC which is made on China by ten years kids.
Caixa MÃgica is just a linux distribution, if you want to blame the horrible on it, blame Gnome/KDE/RPM guys.

The true is that this government is making good projects which tries to educate your population and at the same time stimulates your economy, and that is pissing of people with your politics believes.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

It was also an extremely overpowered wonder for maps with a lot of islands.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[no_such_user]

On one hand, you want kids to build on the achievements of previous generations. On the other, those previous achievements become more abstract. But you know, televisions were corrupting our kids' minds back when you were learning on that 6502. And, there are plenty of 6502 emulators out there. The challenge is then to excite children about learning the basics, so maybe they can go on to tackle a modern CPU datasheet.

So maybe there's a way to supplement the educational system. Shows like Junkyard Wars and Mythbusters -- a huge step forward in helping our kids get excited and learn about science and technology. It's possible to have an equally engaging show about programming and all, perhaps including 6502 assembly. So maybe not quite Discovery or TLC material, but isn't that what YouTube, self-produced video, etc. is all about?

So, just think -- kids in Venezuela watching educational videos on programming 6502 assembly, and using a 6502 emu, all on their cheap Classmates. Sounds pretty cool to me.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[SL Baur]

So, just think -- kids in Venezuela watching educational videos on programming 6502 assembly, and using a 6502 emu, all on their cheap Classmates. Sounds pretty cool to me.

And you completely miss the point I was trying to make.

Why should anyone need a video to learn how to program (anything)?

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[fsmunoz]

Hello,

While I disagree with the usefulness of this programme as stated I have some comments on your remarks:

"We are talking about a 900 MHz refurbished Intel Classmate PC that is both ugly, heavy, and marketed as "built in Portugal", which is _not_!"

They are partially made in Portugal, which is better than not made in Portugal at all - from a Government POV companies that develop and build here should be favoured, and I agree. As for the ugly and heavy, so is the OLPC and pretty much every laptop in the segment, they're ultimate value is utilitarian.

"And the choice of operating systems is appalling! We can either stick with Window XP or Caixa Mágica, a portuguese GNU/Linux distribution that is horribly produced, horrible to use, horrible to maintain, but thrown around at every state sponsored GNU/Linux deployment. No wonder people dislike GNU/Linux after using Caixa Mágica..."

I disagree with your descrition. Instead of a Portuguese distribution that has been developed for years now and to some extent commercially successful and fully localised - not only language-wise but also in terms of local available ISPs and other peculiarities - they should have used something else? Like, let me guess, Ubuntu - which seems what everyone and their dog propose nowadays whenever they hear that something else is available?

This is exactly part of the reason why GNU/Linux user distributions more often then not fail when bundled: there is always a distro-du-jour that describes the one included as "horrible", and people just say "Fuck *this*, if even Linux users say this is braindead [because it uses apt/yum/emerge instead of yum/emerge/apt and other really life-defining stuff] I will just use Windows". Which, more often than not, they do.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[KGIII]

Why should they or why would they? I'd go with they shouldn't but they would because not everyone learns the same with the same methods.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Glonoinha]

I hate to point this out, but the most amazing era of technical prosperity and growth (the tech boom, circa about 1998~2001) happened using computers that were less powerful than the machine in question.

In both 1999 and 2000 I was issued a new laptops, the one I got in 1999 was top of the line - it was a Pentium II running at 366MHz with a 6G hard drive. Maybe 128M of memory.

These 900MHz Celeron based machines are 3x more powerful than the best machine I had during the tech boom, and the work I did on that machine was billed out at $160 an hour towards commercial ventures (insurance, business to business e-commerce, real time systems processing fraud prevention AI, etc.)

So - I'm guessing they're plenty fast enough for kids to learn to program in any number of computer languages, interact with the system at the command line, and do just about any thing in an educational setting that would promote their understanding of computers. To tell the truth they would probably be MORE beneficial to the students if they couldn't run IM, couldn't reach myspace / facebook / youtube, couldn't play games and couldn't display .jpgs (no pr0n for youts - pr0n : not yours.)

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

>It was just stating something the OP feels to be a fact.

There's a word for that: It's called an "opinion". Sometimes people take offense to them, or believe them to be intentionally disruptive, and some of those people have mod points.

>Stupider in the sense of knowing less than previous generations.

There's a word for that, too: It's called "ignorance". There's a difference between being stupid and being ignorant, although the two are often found in one person.

I'm still trying to figure out which you are, although I do agree that each succeeding generation appears to be generally more ignorant. I blame this in part on Google and its ilk: Why learn it when you can just Google it?

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[SL Baur]

I'd go with they shouldn't but they would because not everyone learns the same with the same methods.

Fair enough.

Since folks learn at different rates, perhaps the dumbest criteria for classes is age if the goal is producing the most educated people.

My gripes with the education industry in the US will not be settled in a slashdot article. At the very least, I can guarantee that my sons will never get anywhere close to a US, particularly a California public school. It's the least I can do for them.

[Shameless plug: I've been to Mactan Island[1] several times. It is a wonderful vacation place and well worth visiting.]

[1] Where Magellan was killed by Lapu-lapu.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree. But there is no money from tax holders. Or u may think so by knowing that cell operators didn't pay what was in agreement to get spectrum and are subsidizing these Magellan computers... and at same time getting the money for the connection.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Zarluk]

Well... it's not that bad, believe me ;-)

It is heavily localized and it works. Though I would prefer Alinex (hehe, it's Ubuntu based, after all).

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[KGIII]

I strongly suspect the two of us could converse about the state of public education here for many hours and reach the same conclusions. Then again, I'm the product of a private education. Both of my two kids were homeschooled for a while. Then they wanted to go to public school so I allowed them to.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[edsousa]

There is a huge difference between Ignorance and Stupidity.
The first one is the lack of knowledge.
The other, means ... well, stupidity. Lack of mental capability to figure things out, to apply knowledge to a new situation.
And that is exactly what is happening with those kids. I know a lot of them that have high grades (18 or 19 in 20 average to all subjects), get to med school and are just stupid.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Weedlekin]

"Turns out that I'd never heard "Get Along, Little Doggie" before that, either."

It's "Git Along, Little Dogie", which makes sense for a cowboy song, because a dogie was what cattle men called a motherless calf, whereas "doggie" is a word children use when referring to a dog.

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

Since it's a scam, shouldn't we all yell at the Portuguese government : "Vayanse al caralho, ladrones de mierda" * ?

(* Translation : "Go to hell, f@cking robbers")

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's a huge scam like the former million-Euro agreement signed with Microsoft a few years ago :

http://www.microsoft.com/portugal/presspass/press/2006/fev06/02-01planotecnac.mspx

Europe goes open-source, while Portugal goes Microsoft. Yeahhhh !

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

Close. That's just a bastardization of some strange Spanish.
In correct Portuguese: "Vão pró caralho, ladrões de merda".

Portuguese is not the same as Spanish.

Arr!

Re:Magellan computers make me sick

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote in Spanish in reference to the Chavez speech. (I know it's quite frustrating to keep seeing Portuguese-Portugal being confused with Spanish-Spain...)

Oh, and it should read : "Vayanse al carajo, ladrones de mierda".

That means. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

1 million more hits on Google for naked pictures. It's one of the best uses of the Internet, you know.

Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[burnitdown]

Technology in education has a great deal of potential when you put a computer in each kids hands.

Computers don't change the intelligence of kids, but they may help their motivation.

You cannot educate a congenital idiot into being a genius. You can make him flip burgers faster however.

I think people are hoping that buying computers for kids is the "magic bullet" to somehow turn them all into middle-class level performers.

No scientific evidence exists that shows that will work.

Some useful research:

* The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature, by Stephen Pinker -- proves beyond a doubt that intelligence and personality are almost exclusively heritable.

* The Bell Curve, by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray -- although the portion about race attracted the most media attention, the real point of the book is that intelligence in populations follows a distribution curve so that only a few are actually all that smart.

You can see why people go into "cognitive dissonance" when they see this evidence. We all like to think we can be anyone we want to be. But just like few are as handsome as Paul Newman, few are smart enough to achieve the kind of results that are desired.

Just as only one out of 100,000 has the talent to be an engineer or an acrobat, only a few are those truly capable of managing the matters of a nation or mankind as a whole.
Pentti Linkola

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Anonymous Coward]

Pinker's book belongs by all accounts to the popular science category thus I really doubt that it scientfically "proves beyond a doubt" that intelligence is "almost exclusively" heritable.

There is still a lot of debate in that field and current books for psych students don't present the case as settled.

But you know what. I am inclined to agree with Pinker but it's absolute statements like these that discredit him.

And the Bell Curve has not only been criticized for racism but also methodology.

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[PopeRatzo]

It's a good thing you only cited really solid sources. I was about to say that you were a flamebaiting scumbag.

"The Bell Curve"? Are you fucking kidding me? Where do you get your reading list, the Josef Mengele Book Club?

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Anonymous Coward]

And the Bell Curve has not only been criticized for racism but also methodology.

      Criticize all you want, but you can't alter the facts. You know, as a biologist I find bell curves everywhere I look. It's only logical that most people can be categorized as being "somewhere in the middle" or "average" intelligence, with a few individuals standing out on the extremely low end or the extremely high end.

      Unfortunately what this means for those of us on the high end is that everyone else is stupid. So we actively seek out intelligent friends, partners, co-workers. Then we get accused of being "elitist" by the "stupid" masses. The scary thing is in a "democracy", we all get an equal vote, which means that no matter how smart I am, the idiots are going to choose the leaders. Well the results in the US are self evident, both with the current president and your choices in the immediate future. I was not impressed with EITHER candidate at the "debate".

      Ahh what I wouldn't give for an Orwellian world where intelligence determined party status directly...

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Collapsing Empire]

You do realize that The Bell Curve was co-written by a Jew, correct?

The Bell Curve is a justification for promoting intelligent people to higher places in society, not a pattern for mass murder and genocide.

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Collapsing Empire]

Here is a modest proposal:

The races may not be equal because different races represent different sub-evolutionary strategies of human groups who moved to different parts of the world long ago. Each race has capabilities that represent adaptation to a particular environment.

If we get away from a discussion of saying one race is inferior or superior to the other, can we have an objective discussion on these differences?

A lot of the modern science regarding racial differences has come to the conclusion that Jews and East Asians have the highest intelligence, so its not some sort of "nazi" type propaganda. Some of us just want to have honest discussions rather than emotion-laden ones that this thread invariably degenerates to. I'm not even Jewish or Asian, yet this topic is fascinating to me.

Why can't y'all just step away from your ego and emotionalism and have a talk?

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Anonymous Coward]

Some cowardly moderator moderated my 100% truthful comment down as "Flamebait".

Here is a proposal for you, moderator: grow some balls and participate in this discussion instead of anonymously attempting to censor comments you can't refute.

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[KGIII]

You, like those who are average, think you're in the above average group. This may or may not be true in your case. Speaking of bell curves...

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[KGIII]

There are still those who suggest that the evidence is flawed as it doesn't take sociological aspects into account. That a race is predisposed to intellect generally doesn't mean a whole lot until we have examined the sociology associated with this. Are they better because of the pressures put on them? Are they worse because it doesn't matter in their environment?

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not the moderator of your post, though I have moderated posts in this story and thus now I post as AC.

The reason IMO your post is flamebait is:

1. Someone tried to characterise your book list as racist.
2. you counter argued this person, by stating that one of the writers you talked about was a Jew.

That is flamebait because it implicitly argues that "cannot be racist because he/she is a Jew". That correlation simply does not exist. What you were doing is "positive discrimination". There are racists that are Jews just as there are racists that are Budhists/Christians/Muslims/Atheists.

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Colonel Korn]

I am not the moderator of your post, though I have moderated posts in this story and thus now I post as AC.

The reason IMO your post is flamebait is:

1. Someone tried to characterise your book list as racist.
2. you counter argued this person, by stating that one of the writers you talked about was a Jew.

That is flamebait because it implicitly argues that "cannot be racist because he/she is a Jew". That correlation simply does not exist. What you were doing is "positive discrimination". There are racists that are Jews just as there are racists that are Budhists/Christians/Muslims/Atheists.

The attack on his book list specifically compared the author's argument to those of Nazis justifying genocide of Jews in WWII. His response directly dealt with that. You, and the moderator, both didn't spend the time to figure that out.

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[I cant believe its n]

Just as only one out of 100,000 has the talent to be an engineer or an acrobat, only a few are those truly capable of managing the matters of a nation or mankind as a whole.

As a non-acrobat, I can't really speak of how hard it would be to join their ranks. I was however surprised to find that it is harder to become and engineer than it is to become a member of Mensa.

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[TheSync]

Computers don't change the intelligence of kids, but they may help their motivation.

While research shows IQ is highly heritable (heritability of IQ between 0.4 and 0.8 in the United States), some of it clearly is not, which may be the key to the Flynn Effect of rises in average IQ in economically developed countries.

It is possible that some of the marginal non-heritable IQ rise is due to exposure to complex and challenging mental stimulation of children. In which case, computers may change the intelligence of kids if they are used in a constructive way.

Almost any marginal gain in IQ is likely to enhance lifetime earnings (though perhaps not as much as we once thought), so it is a good idea to encourage it.

Of course, whether a government-sponsored purchase of lots of computers for children will achieve IQ-enhancing results is a bigger question - the question is how they are used, if at all, and what traditional instruction their use may crowd out.

Of course, the long-term solution is genetic engineering for higher IQ....

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[MindlessAutomata]

Besides, being wrong (your actual point aside, which I felt was obvious) is not grounds for modding down for flamebait... probably not even modding down at all.

*sigh*

Re:Depends on the intelligence of the kid

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue isn't stupid kids, it is the nature of the school system. If any child graduates with an education, it is in spite of the schools, not because of them. By putting control into the students' hands, they have the opportunity to learn beyond what the schools are able to offer. This actually helps both ends - the brighter kids can shoot ahead to where they should be (even ahead of the teachers), and the teachers can spend more time with the 'dim' ones. And the ones in the middle get a shiny toy. Win for everyone.

That's capitalism

[burnitdown]

Can't allow there to be so many AMD chips out there...

That's fair play under the rules of capitalism.

And if we want "freedom," we probably don't want a whole bunch of rules about what's fair play.

Then again, maybe we can do better than a capitalist system.

Re:That's capitalism

[Eukariote]

That's fair play under the rules of capitalism.

Is it? This is not free competition in an open market with a free flow of information. This is specifically targetting and trying to undo deals for the acquisition of a competitor's products using backroom machinations, bribes, and threats. Anti-trust legislation exists for a reason: to avoid cartels and monopolies and allow an open market to function and thereby protect the consumer. Some rules that are enforced are required. Unfortunately, monopolist corporate power in the US is such that rules have hardly been enforced.

Re:That's capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fair play under the rules of capitalism.

Screwing with non-profit organisations dedicated to changing the world for the better, simply for the purpose of making a few quick bucks, is fair play?

It seems that you have forgotten that capitalism is means towards an end, not an end in itself.

Re:That's capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Capitalism is a means to an end? What is the end, in your humble opinion?

Re:That's capitalism

[aurispector]

The OLPC is a nice toy and Negroponte gets credit for creating the netbook category, but that's it. Face it, the hardware is slow and not really special - oops sorry, the case has pretty kiddie colors. You could make the case that the OS is something new, but I don't see a huge clamor to bring it into every classroom everywhere. My kids use whatever OS is put in front of them. They take a while to find how to do stuff, then they do it. Where's the demand for the OLPC? They want to put nonstandard hardware and software in the hands of kid's in the 3rd world. Apparently, Secretaries of Education everywhere are scratching their heads wondering why they would put their kids on a different track than the rest of the world. And somewhere down the road the kids would have to be retrained to use standard PC's. Why?

The OLPC project should return to it's original vision of giving one laptop per child and get out of the hardware & software market. Change the mission to helping fund computer acquisitions. If they took all the money they wasted on hardware and software development they could have put more laptops out there by now.

OLPC is a classic example of why the market is better at developing and bringing products to market - better, faster, cheaper. Don't put the blame on Intel.

Re:That's capitalism

[Hucko]

making me rich...

Re:That's capitalism

[kisrael]

I think you are too dismissive of the software they're doing;
a basic computer w/ connectivity and a browser and some document handling is a 2/3 of the battle, and opens up whole new worlds. But there's another 1/3 of software that really encourages active constructive learning.

(that said, much of the the OLPC learning software is clunky + unfriendly in UI, but they are working to make it better as a learning platform)

People can pick up officedrone-ware later. Diversity from "standard" might be a worthwhile goal in and of itself.

Re:That's capitalism

[KGIII]

There are a lot of unproven beliefs here on /. and one of them is the belief in a utopia created by a free market. It is commonly supported here. Then someone comes along and finds that it isn't doing what they want and they'll say it is corruption, bribing, etc... They do this without any evidence to support their statements. Much like they believe in this fictional market as a cure.

What they forget is that we're humans and those genes haven't been removed yet and probably won't. Self preservation and greed are short term goals that are a part of who we are. The true irony is when they come and say that they're "naturalists" (as has been done before here) and completely ignore the fact that being natural means being true to your genetics, being things like an omnivore, and having the instincts to gather all you can in case lean times are in the future.

It is as if they think we've reached *the* high point which is odd because they seem to believe in evolution. The belief is that they have the answers now, don't need to substantiate them, and then go on to ignore much of what they claim to believe in.

The sad truth is that we're here for a short time and if we kill off a huge percentage of the population both the environment and the resulting changes in our species or learning would certainly better us as a whole. The claim is that people don't think long-term enough. The reality is that those who claim to think in advance are only being very short term thinkers as far as the scope of existence.

Re:That's capitalism

[foniksonik]

A free market? Unencumbered by arbitrary regulation or regulation which only favors specific depressed populations (read poor people).

Additionally the typical free market ideal also doesn't allow for preferential government contracts or subsidies... which is why th US still isn't a capitalist nation, despite the economists hand waving. in fact it's not even close. There are so many gov contracts and subsidies which only go out to a select few 'qualifying' corporations or individuals.

Re:That's capitalism

[PaintyThePirate]

Since when was an x86 cpu and linux "nonstandard hardware and software?" I'm going to assume you've never actually used an XO.

The hardware is "special" for several reasons. Mesh networking mitigates the lack of networking infrastructure in most of the places these are getting deployed. The absurdly high resolution screen also supports dropping into transflective grayscale for use in sunlight. Under normal load, it pulls around 4w, and goes below 1w in ebook mode (cpu, wifi, and backlight off). Of course, theres also the sealed keyboard, rugged design with no moving parts, LiFePO4 battery, security LEDs on the webcam and microphone, and so on. All of these things add up to show the key difference between the XO and the Classmate. The Classmate is a laptop made as cheaply as possible; the XO was designed from the ground up for education in the developing world.

You've also contradicted yourself about the software. On one hand, you say kids will figure out how to use whatever is on front of them, but then it must be some huge effort to retrain kids to use Windows down the line? Beyond the obvious contradiction there, you are also assuming that the XO exists to teach kids how to use computers. That is a secondary goal at most. The goal is to provide educational tools. I agree that Sugar is far from perfect, but it is improving every day. (And I mean that literally, the development builds seem to be released on a daily basis). The OS was designed largely to maximize the benefit of networking for collaboration. Pretty much anything that exists on one laptop, from Activities to content, to specific sessions done in an Activity can be shared with other XOs on the network. In addition, many Activities allow for multiple kids to be using it cooperatively.

Regardless, politics seems to come into play more than the merits of either program in bulk orders like this. In this case, Venezuela would much rather make friends with the Portuguese government than an American non-profit.

Re:That's capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

The OLPC is a nice toy and Negroponte gets credit

OLPC is a classic example of why the market is better at developing and bringing products to market - better, faster, cheaper.

So the free market is better at developing products, yet it didn't develop a netbook? That took a philanthropist.

The free market is a good thing, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

You're also incorrect about the nature of the project: if Negroponte had stuck to his guns about it being a education project, the question of "Does it run Windows?" would have been moot. The other mistake Negroponte made was not allowing countries to test the laptops, particularly not alongside the Classmate PCs.

Re:That's capitalism

[Yfrwlf]

My kids use whatever OS is put in front of them.

And somewhere down the road the kids would have to be retrained to use standard PC's.

I smell contradiction.

The point of OLPC is to try to get the cheapest laptop available for those without anything, and I credit them for really starting the push in the mindset of OEMs, perhaps even more than Asus did, for focusing on making cheap laptops. OLPC was seen as a danger to the market which is why you're on here reading this article about the Classmate in the first place. At the very least, you should agree that credit is due to them for helping bump the cheap laptop market, even if the whole thing was basically effectively destroyed by corporations, or at least delayed so they all had time to come up with their own offerings.

Re:That's capitalism

[Zarluk]

The Very Thing that Makes You Rich Makes Me Poor...

Re:That's capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it is. Capitalism *CANNOT EXIST* with free competition in an open market with a free flow of information. (I'm using capitalism in the precise sense, as coined by Thomas Hodgskin in the early 19th century, which is the leveraging of capital to exploit resources and labor for the purposes of generating a profit.) Kevin Carson over at the Mutualist blog has extensive analyses of how labor becomes a scarce and expensive commodity in a free market, as self-employment flourishes, and profits soon take on a wide distribution rather than being centralized in a few hands, which effectively prevents the accumulation of the large sums of capital which are the prerequisite for capitalism as we know it.
  Capitalism can only exist with massive government intervention in the market, which distorts the playing field and favors large centralized businesses owned by those in and around the circle of power, destroying small businesses and individual's self-sufficiency.

Re:That's capitalism

[kesuki]

" That's fair play under the rules of capitalism."

'Is it? This is not free competition in an open market with a free flow of information. This is specifically targetting and trying to undo deals for the acquisition of a competitor's products using backroom machinations, bribes, and threats. Anti-trust legislation exists for a reason: to avoid cartels and monopolies and allow an open market to function and thereby protect the consumer. Some rules that are enforced are required. Unfortunately, monopolist corporate power in the US is such that rules have hardly been enforced.'

while you have some nice ideas in there, there are two big things you're missing. #1 capitalism

"Capitalism is the economic system in which the means of production are owned by private persons, and operated for profit[1] and where investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are predominantly determined through the operation of a free market or in a regulated market."

doesn't say anything about fairness, other than 'regulated market' which infers government intervention because there is no inherent fairness in capitalism, so the government must provide the fairness.

#2 Anti-trust regulations, particularly in the USA.

anti-trust laws have only as many teeth, as the government gives them. the laws are specifically weak and vague, only congress can order the break up of a monopoly... and congress has done this exactly twice. #1 railroads this was way back when the government had balls, and men were men, and dirty business wasn't kosher in Washington DC. they totally screwed up the entire railroad system, by totally castrating anyone who wanted to get rich off railroads. it's their fault that 'every american' needs a fucking car, but i digress. secondly they broke up ma bell. this was done when congress had some teeth, but had already been castrated and were mainly worried that the break-up didn't screw over the telecom industry the way the railroad break up did. they did this one right, but sadly by the time it came up to microsoft's turn at the plate, congress was now ball-less and toothless so they gave people a $25 dollar coupon on the purchase of microsoft products, and gave microsoft yet another committee this one made up of college professors and what not.

so you can see, anti-trust law in the USA is a weak as the government is corrupt. maybe this is a good thing, considering how they dropped the ball on railroads. i can guarantee you if railroad tycoons had not had their empires made into amtrack cars would be less popular than they are now. trains have huge performance and economy of scale benefits, and commercial trucking might have been playing second fiddle to a second or third generation railroad monopoly.

Re:That's capitalism

[noundi]

No it's not fair play. Playing on peoples ignorance with the future of millions of third world country kids at stake is not fair play. Just because the law allows them to be exploited it doesn't make it fair. I for one look at intel with nothing but disgust, this time it's not regular consumers, have some fucking conscience. They could have proposed a cooperation between themselves and OLPC (and even AMD) and actually done something with this instead of just digging for more gold. As usual someone has a beautiful idea, and money hungry whores walk over dead bodies to exploit it.

Re:That's capitalism

[aurispector]

You're right, I haven't touched an olpc. I don't need to. All the things you list are nice, but why does the developing world need a different standard than the rest of the world? One major change made from the original design exposes the basic flaw in the whole concept - they got rid of the hand crank and replaced it with an ac adapter. Why? Because the libtard-centric pipe dream that little African kids on the savanna would use them out on the open plains, miles from civilization, on break from herding water buffalo or whatever, is just plain wrong. How big of a market is that? The reality is that most users will be sitting in the classroom where electricity and networks are available. How much does a wifi router cost? A cheap laptop with built in wifi works just fine.

As far as software goes, it's not a contradiction that my kids can use anything you put in front of them. It's a statement that kids are smart and adaptable. However, if you're the Secretary of Education in a 3rd world nation with an extremely limited budget, from a practical perspective you just need to get your kids computing, period.

We take OS choice (and computing in general) for granted because we're wealthy. Who in their right mind would go with anything but the de-facto standard? I understand the intent behind Sugar, but you could run it as an application and get the same basic functionality. What exactly does it do that's so important that 3rd world kids can't learn without it?

If they want to experiment with changing the paradigm of personal computing go ahead and try, but it's incredibly arrogant of them to assume their vision is correct, better and that the 3rd world is willing to be your guinea pig.

Re:That's capitalism

[Anonymous Coward]

The OLPC program is mismanaged, that's all. If it were run by someone more like John Chambers and less like Nicholas Negroponte, it would be more successful.

They have a bunch of true innovations in their design, but the overall integrated product is much rougher than something which is not as innovative. Sort of overambitious technically, while being super-light (almost recklessly) in the organization and management department --- primarily due to the idiocy of Negroponte and his love of 'emergent phenomena.'

The education focus of OLPC is a strength. Properly configured and run, it could be the basis for a much more effective learning tool than the Classmate. Unfortunately, the development of the tool is slapdash, and too unrefined to be as useful.

Negroponte should have welcomed the Classmate as a competitor to the XO, but insisted that Intel support the Sugar OS as an education system, and opened up the development to take advantage of Intel's participation. Instead, he tried to compete with the Classmate (ego-trip) and is shipping the XO with Windows.

Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[burnitdown]

But the truth is that year after year, kids get more stupid.

Not disagreeing, but, why do you think that is?

TV? Genetics? Mutations? Social welfare? Religion?

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[edsousa]

Mostly, lack of education.
Moral education at home, and not demanding work from the students. Its lot alike to the US "No Child Left Behind". To give you an example:
A colleague of mine taught some years in high school and was dismissed because he was being to hard with kids. He demanded one kid to solve "1000/100" without the calculator. She couldn't.

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Godzilla

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[pbhj]

But the truth is that year after year, kids get more stupid.

Not disagreeing, but, why do you think that is?

TV? Genetics? Mutations? Social welfare? Religion?

Missing option ... Cowboy Neal?!

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

But the truth is that year after year, kids get more stupid.

Not disagreeing, but, why do you think that is?

TV? Genetics? Mutations? Social welfare? Religion?

Because each year, YOU get smarter.

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was just going to say -

Children today are tyrants! They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[rohan972]

But the truth is that year after year, kids get more stupid.

Not disagreeing, but, why do you think that is?

Two major factors:
1. Compulsory education. Being compulsory removes much of the need for performance in education. Even an exceptionally good teacher does not overcome to any significant degree the natural systemic problems created by compulsion. Even some excellent teachers will admit this.
2. Too much play, not enough work. I mean productive work for profit (even growing vegetables etc) Entertainment being provided to the child rather than by the child produces habits of mental laziness. Excessive entertainment of any nature produces habits of focussing on the inconsequential and frivolous.

The result is people of diminished capabilities who aren't very likely to focus even the capability they have in a meaningful direction. They do respond very well to propaganda though. I am not against either education (obviously) or entertainment, but effort must be taken to instil a love of learning in the child so that the quality of the education system is less relevant, along with providing any learning opportunities lacking in the system. Also to get the child doing profitable work asap, paper route, mowing lawns, whatever. Something so that the cause and effect aspect of work becomes real to them early on. Endless entertainment paid for by someone else's work (parents or anyone else) separates them from the reality of life.

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[Colonel Korn]

But the truth is that year after year, kids get more stupid.

Not disagreeing, but, why do you think that is?

TV? Genetics? Mutations? Social welfare? Religion?

Since I was seven I blamed this partially on relying on computers (then Apple ][ machines) in the classroom in place of actual teaching.

Re:Year after year, kids get more stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

TV, religion and too many wars between politians, which brought the education system down :(

Classmate, Magellan, Venezuela and Portugal

[lejerdemayn]

Even though TFA doesn't mention it, it's true that the computer being sold is called Magellan. It's basically a rename of Intel Classmate, with 1/3 of it being produced in Portugal. It was launched a few days ago over here (Portugal). The computer is being given (almost free) to kids in the 5th grade, and sold to the public for ~285 euros. Imo, it's just sad to see what I believe is a waste of public funds! First, the government is pouring cash into Intel's pocket for a sub-product, when it could've allied itself with the OLPC. Second, they think that by throwing fishing sticks at people, they'll learn how to fish. The computers will most likely be used for IM (MSN), social network (hi5) and warez. As for this deal with Venezuela, Chavez and Socrates (portuguese prime minister) are having some deals, and this is just another one. Portugal also has a huge community in Venezuela (around 1 million iirc).

Re:Classmate, Magellan, Venezuela and Portugal

[fsmunoz]

Hi,

While I agree with you on the waste of money part - I am in general highly suspicious of the "throwing computers at the problem" strategy and actually think it has been having detrimental effects in several educational areas - I also disagree somewhat with some of you points:

"the government is pouring cash into Intel's pocket for a sub-product, when it could've allied itself with the OLPC."

The current state of the OLPC is a bit distant from the initial promise, so I don't actually think it would make such a difference. Also there is a difference: the OLPC was meant as a new UI for "emergent" countries while the Magellan is basically a cheap dual-boot computer meant to increase exposition to regular computer usage (yes, that means also Excel and Word).

"Second, they think that by throwing fishing sticks at people, they'll learn how to fish. The computers will most likely be used for IM (MSN), social network (hi5) and warez."

Yes, here I agree with you... but perhaps we are both Luddites in a way, I mean, having access to a laptop can be considered something very good - heck, having a computer when I was a kid was essential to my future career. Anyway perhaps some sort of "computers at school" strategy with supervision would be better. The Portuguese PM like to talk about Finland so it wouldn't hurt to see how they are dealing with this.

"It's basically a rename of Intel Classmate, with 1/3 of it being produced in Portugal"

While a bit deceptive I find that 1/3 is better that 0/3. The government should favoutr solution that are built domestically since they contribute in a much broader way to the development of the regions and the social fabric. Plus, the Linux itself is from a well-known local distribution, Caixa Mágica. This is something that could prove interesting.

Bottom line: somewhat critical about the process itself, Microsoft and Intel have something to gain here for sure but could perhaps prove interesting in some regards.

Chavez!

[saterdaies]

Damn right-wing reactionaries and their mega-corporations! When will they realize that they should be purchasing from friendly non-profits like OLPC. I say we all move to Venezuela and start a socialist revolution!

Re:Chavez!

[dogeatery]

I'm with you!

Re:Chavez!

[Anonymous Coward]

I say we all move to Venezuela and start a socialist revolution!

The Soviet Republic of American States Unite YOU! already tried this, and failed.

Good for Venezuela

[damburger]

Although its popular on both left and right to demonise Chavez, I think his rule will have a long term positive effect. Regardless of the current state of Venezuela, the Missions he created are contributing to a healthier and better educated population which is the foundation of future success.

I predict he will be out in a few years, and Venezuela will continue on a roughly social democratic route. The idea that he is turning it into another Cuba is just absurd hysterical screeching from the elite he has pissed off by treating the Venezuelan poor like human beings for a change.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[pmsr]

The left demonizes Chavez? In some parallel universe no doubt.

/Pmsr

Re:Good for Venezuela

[freddy_dreddy]

With a bit of help from petropolitics any idiot like Chavez can become popular.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Zeros]

No, Chavez is trying to make Venezuela like Cuba. No poor people in Venezuela are now even worse than they where before. Anyone that thinks Chavez is doing something good has definitely never lived there. (I'm Venezuelan and middle class). I know defending Chavez has become cool among some people but no, he is a horrible human being that is doing MUCH MUCH worse damage than bush did in this 8 years.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Anonymous Coward]

With a bit of help from petropolitics any idiot like Chavez can become popular.

Bush couldn't.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[damburger]

You are middle class. I rest my case

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Toll_Free]

lol.

That's pretty much how everyone was viewing Castro in the 'early days'.

Socialism is screwed, US isn't a democracy. You might be right in that Chavez might be out in a few years, but I highly doubt his "legacy" will be a good one.

Just because he is putting missions out in the field and educating the general populace in his ideals doesn't mean he isn't brainwashing them and / or leading them to the future revolucion (spelling intentional) against the tyrannical Norte.

Bin Laden educated his followers, for Crissakes.

--Toll_Free

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Zeros]

Your case was about the elite... if you think middle class is elite then you have problems

Re:Good for Venezuela

[damburger]

I have no evidence you are from Venezuela. I have no evidence of your economic status. I simply have your unsubstantiated statements - and the fact you made the very hysterical comparison I mentioned was being made by the elite of Venezuela. I heard a business owner in Venezuela, with a straight face, compare the current situation to the Bolshevik revolution DESPITE THE FACT HE STILL OWNED HIS BUSINESS. The Venezuelan elite are comically shrill when it comes to complaining about their lost privileges, and you have simply provided an example (if you are indeed Venezuelan at all).

Re:Good for Venezuela

[freddy_dreddy]

Bush is popular, you're just not in his target group

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Anonymous Coward]

(I happen to live in Venezuela)
You can see how good the Venezuelan poor have been treated so far here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here.
Not much of a change, is it? You may notice that some of the unfortunate characters are wearing baseball caps and t- Please don't take the PR spin at face value; some good has been done, but it's akin to treating pneumonia with aspir
Regarding "hysterical screeching", just take a look here, here, here, here, here, here and here. At any rate, there's not much socialism here, but rather statism.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Zeros]

This conversation is being derailed, I am venezuelan and you cant prove i am not. In fact why the hell would i lie about that? I really wish i was more eloquent in english so that i could state my point in a way even you would understand. Is a privilege buying foreign currency? ... Anyway before this conversation goes deeper into a flamewar i will end it here and wont respond anymore. But i can tell you your views are flawed, yes he is trying to make it seem as if he is helping the poor but he is draining the economy by wasting money by either giving free oil or lots of money to other countries.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[KGIII]

The listing of the citizen's constitutional rights on products that they buy in the store daily and the advances made in adult education so that they can read them may well be the start of what makes his name go down as legend even though the USA doesn't like him but, a bit of history will show that we don't like ANYONE in the region that we don't own. We have gone to great measures to ruin entire democracies in South America.

As a person who is a citizen of the United States of America I'd like to hope that we, as a nation, are too weak to actually do shit about it at this point.

For all the haters out there... This didn't need OLPC. OLPC got it a jump and made it viable as a choice. They opted to go with this product. That's freedom. Let them have their freedom.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[damburger]

A couple of pictures without date or context might tug at the heartstrings a little, but you would do well to stick with numbers;

Although commonly thought to be a command economy, government spending as a percentage of GDP in Venezuela in 2007 was 30%, smaller than some capitalist countries such as France (49%) and Sweden (52%). According to official sources, the percentage of people below the national poverty line has decreased significantly during the Chavez years, from 48.1% in 2002 to 12.3% in 2007.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_venezuela

Regardless of what you think of the source, it has the benefit of being a quantifiable statement, rather than a set of pictures which tell you nothing about the state of a country.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Reservoir Penguin]

Like having more doctors and something to eat three times a day makes people's life much much worse. Chavez is a hero of all socially progressive people all over the world.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Zeros]

We had amazing Venezuela doctors already as for the 3 meals please refer to the pictures posted a couple of posts below.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Anonymous Coward]

"the Missions he created are contributing to a healthier and better educated population"
Do you have any evidence whatsoever for this? The Barrio Adentro medical mission has had several malpractice scandals so far, while the educational missions are known for giving away grades and certificates as long as you're a supporter of the government.

"I predict he will be out in a few years"
Not if he has his way. He has already stated he plans to stay in power until 2021 at least, which is illegal under the current constitution, so he has been doing everything he can to get it changed.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[PotatoSan]

Bush is popular, you're just not in his target group

I didn't know that "less than 30% of the population" could be considered a target group.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[cbraescu1]

I predict you'll never understand how wrong you are about Chavez and his wrong policies.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[cbraescu1]

There were private business in Soviet Russia *after* the Bolshevik revolution.

Heck, there were private business even after the Bolshevicks managed to defeat the Whites and fully control Russia. Google for +NEP +Russia +Lenin and you'll find the info yourself.

Chavez is strangling the private economy and he's bribing the low-income Venezuelans with his petrodollars, which are hiding his economic disaster.

Chavez doesn't need to brive each and every citizen in Venezuela, just enough to have 51% support when the voting comes. In the mean time, he's changing the Constitution and the laws so that pretty soon no voting will count anymore.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[cbraescu1]

As a person who is a citizen of the United States of America I'd like to hope that we, as a nation, are too weak to actually do shit about it at this point.

As a citizen of EU I must say I think you speak like a traitor.

Whatever your reasons are to disagree with your own government, to wish your nation is too weak to act is akin to treason.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[damburger]

Seems to me "bribing low-income Venezuelans with his petrodollars" is a dysphemism for "distributing the countries oil wealth fairly" which I have no problem. And you mention NEP without referring to War Communism, showing you know nothing of significance about the Bolshevik revolution.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Yfrwlf]

The U.S. is run by religious nutcases who will vote for anyone as long as they proclaim they're in the same god faction they are. There was a time when U.S. presidents actually had some form of humility, and alignments like religion weren't purposefully pushed out into the open as cheap ways of scoring points. The U.S. has become an even bigger disgrace than ever, especially for letting him stay in office. Stupidity in schools has kept many from thinking for themselves and only serves to put this country into even more of a Nazi mindset marching forward in the name of patriotism and religion instead of denouncing ideas like these like they should be as mentally unfounded and foolish. The day everyone in the U.S. stops with the flag waving and finally starts praising intelligence and thought will be a great one indeed, if it ever comes. Unfortunately, the future looks kind of bleak for that ever changing as those who don't want it to happen are at the helm.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for Venezuela?? i think you should read more news. Some years ago Chavez said Venezuela has to build it's own pc's to stay away from imperialism of big american corporatios, so he start to creat a "local" pc industrie here in Venezuela.

Now, some years later what we have? ah.... we have to buy laptops from Portugal... what happen with the local pc industrie? the same that all that stupid comunist speach.... nothing....

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Anonymous Coward]

Bin Laden educated his followers, for Crissakes.

Now that you mention Christ... well, gosh, so did he.

Your point being?

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Colonel Korn]

This conversation is being derailed, I am venezuelan and you cant prove i am not. In fact why the hell would i lie about that?

You could point out that your posting record, easily available with a single mouse click, obviously shows you at least have a deep interest in Venezuela along with a lot of demonstrated knowledge about it.

People have difficulty dealing with Chavez in the "western world." The man is obviously intentionally antagonistic, which understandably leads to a lot of people, even those who might normally be more moderate, seeing him as the devil incarnate, or at least incredibly annoying. The extreme level of this response leads opponents of cultural and economic imperialism to take a rather extreme response in opposition. They genuinely think Chavez is a wonderful leader, ignoring corruption, torture, etc. There are several posts here today responding to Chavez's torture record (hey, just like we have in the good ol' US of A) by saying it's okay, because he's torturing business owners and such, who are obviously the scum of the Earth.

My tentative perspective is that Chavez really is an improvement, economically, for a lot of the people in the country, but that this is only because predecessors were particularly bad. If a man like Chavez were suddenly made the effective dictator of the UK, he'd be seen as the worst tyrant in two hundred years.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Alioth]

No, Chavez has aspirations of dictatorship. You can now go to jail for over 3 years for simply saying 'Chavez is a crank' in Venezuela. He's cracking down on freedom of speech, and his hobby of trying to provoke the United States has turned from an amusing hobby to a bogeyman to blame everything on. When he silences a political opponent, he simply says the opponent was an agent of the United States and throws them out of the country or jails them.

Chavez might once have had promise for doing something great for Venezuela. However, sadly, he's now sliding towards dictatorship with all that implies (i.e. doing only things that will keep him in power).

Re:Good for Venezuela

[I cant believe its n]

As a citizen of EU I must say I think you speak like a traitor.

Whatever your reasons are to disagree with your own government, to wish your nation is too weak to act is akin to treason.

I feel freedom of speech is underrated, hangings overrated and justice truly blind.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[MindlessAutomata]

I have no evidence you heard any such thing from a business owner in Venezuela. I simply have unsubstantiated statements.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Artemis3]

Bullshit. You are part of the lies spread by media moguls, completely groundless anyone immediately verifies as soon as they set step in our country.

You are in fact spiting Chavez on TV, radio and newspapers everyday 24/7. I dare you do the same in the States and count how long before you end in guantanamo bay as a "terrorist", in Cuba no less.

The people you don't name, in jail, more than opponents are criminals, not in for dissident ideas, but for actual crimes: killing, scamming, rape, etc. The other cowards living in Miami with the rest of american backed terrorism (see: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles]Posada Carriles[/url]).

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Artemis3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Artemis3]

I predict you'll never understand how wrong you are about Chavez and his right policies.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Artemis3]

None of you can prove, but the private medicine has had several malpractice scandals, some even denying care based on political affiliation, which does NOT occur in the Venezuelan-Cuban universal health care program called Barrio Adentro who has saved the lives of more than 400000 people without charging a cent.

As for staying in power, go to the facts. He is proposing a constitutional reform for re-election to be consulted in a referendum, the same where you have Yet Another Chance (tm) to end (revoke) his term, in a democratic and constitutional (art. 71-74) way.

Problem is, you failed to convince the majority in 11 of 12 electoral events since Chavez won the presidential elections of 98. You don't like the truth and love to live in a media backed fantasy of lies and politic fiction, always blaming others when the truth hits you in the face.

I don't think you have what you need to change the 60% popularity Chavez has even now after 10 years of presidential terms, regardless of the fantasy you may think you live in, Venezuelans want Chavez to stay.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Artemis3]

This: http://www.vit.com.ve/

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Anonymous Coward]

I think his rule will have a long term positive effect.

This statement makes me sick. If you haven't lived in Venezuela for at least the past 6 years, you know nothing about this regime.

After all this time, I can feel related to the people from Cuba, and I can see how any country can turn into that hell. All you need is a poor and un-educated population, and a guy that knows how to BS them on TV. In his case it was even easier than in Cuba, with a 100$ oil barrel.

And sure, the US won't care as long as Venezuela continues its shipment of oil.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Anonymous Coward]

Let see... oil production going down, GDP going up.
Don't you think this could be related to the price of oil?
Do you think this had anything to do with any economic measures?
Do you know how much better you could do with 10 years in office, complete control over the legislative system, more than 2 million barrels of oil exported daily at at least 100$ the barrel?
I know I could do much better...

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Gavagai80]

If he were looking to be a real dictator, he wouldn't have accepted the defeat of the constitutional referendum which would've allowed him to stay in office another term as well as "deepen the revolution".

Chavez will be gone in a few years -- he already lost the vote on that and conceded the point.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[KGIII]

As a citizen of the EU I find it odd that you see patriotism as being a traitor. You probably haven't learned a lot of the history concerning the Latin American areas abuses from the United States. You probably don't understand that we have the right to bear arms here so that we *can* revolt against tyranny. What you see as being a traitor I view as being patriotic and, well, if you don't think that the time is nigh for a revolution on American soil then I'm pretty sure you're not living in the same plane of existence as I am.

Re:Good for Venezuela

[Toll_Free]

Unwittingly, you made it for me.

--Toll_Free

Re:Good for Venezuela

[cbraescu1]

One thing is for citizens to revolt against their own government. I think it might be "the ultimate right". I fully agree with you on this one.

On the other hand, what I see as almost betrayal is wishing your one government to be so weak, it is impotent as related to other government.

Big difference.

Actually, this source is well-regarded

[burnitdown]

"The Bell Curve"? Are you fucking kidding me? Where do you get your reading list, the Josef Mengele Book Club?

Godwin's law in action: if you can't beat 'em, call them fascists.

The Bell Curve is still widely regarded as the definitive tome on an unpopular but valid scientific pursuit. Why are you trying to censor science for your personal preferences of what you think reality should be? What are you afraid of?

It's the new Scopes trial: can you accept thinkers like Pinker or Herrnstein/Murray, or must we find some way to shut science out of the debate?

My statements reflect Pinker's thesis

[burnitdown]

But you know what. I am inclined to agree with Pinker but it's absolute statements like these that discredit him.

And the Bell Curve has not only been criticized for racism but also methodology.

I wouldn't consider him "popular science," since he uses hard science in the book and his research is about anything but a popular topic.

Stephen Pinker: Research

The entire point of his book is that intelligence and personality are heritable, in contrast to the "blank slate" theory which suggests human beings can be shaped or educated into having certain intelligence and personality traits.

Every book has been criticized for its methodology. Criticism alone debunks nothing. Do you have a valid counterargument, or are you just trying to insult away the problem?

Re:My statements reflect Pinker's thesis

[An Onerous Coward]

Because you're too lazy to do it yourself, but willing to indignantly demand that someone else do it for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

Just the effect of not using Windows

[synthespian]

Just the effect that a million or more kids will grow up realizing that computers are something that can have different operating systems, that is, that they're not inherently connected to that monopoly product such as Windows, is very beneficial.

There's a whole generation out there that grew up thinking computers equal Microsoft, which suits them fine, but is just horrible for a free market economy.

It's strange how Linux gets easily picked up by leftists, who end up upholding free market principles as a side effect, while dyed-in-the-wool capitalist types will staunchly support Microsoft.

Re:Just the effect of not using Windows

[rohan972]

It's strange how Linux gets easily picked up by leftists, who end up upholding free market principles as a side effect, while dyed-in-the-wool capitalist types will staunchly support Microsoft.

Not always. I think I qualify as a "dyed-in-the-wool capitalist type" I support Free software. Not all capitalist types are software vendors. Resources are necessary for wealth creation and the questions "what is a resource?" and "how much wealth can be produced with this resource?" are both determined by technology. The level of technology is determined by the rate at which we share information (so it can be built upon). Therefore, Free software will result in a greater level of wealth being available in the markets I operate in.

Pseudo capitalists want a bigger share of the pie. Real capitalists want to make a bigger pie.

Re:Just the effect of not using Windows

[damburger]

What "free market principles" are there in Linux? Going on strict "free market principles" it wouldn't even exist, as people are being economically irrational giving away their labour (which has amounted to billions of dollars worth now) for free?

Re:Just the effect of not using Windows

[synthespian]

Free markets are about choice. You can sign a contract with Red Hat or you can sign a contract with Microsoft.

BTW, I am not pro-Linux. I think BSD-licensed systems achieve a nicer balance between open-source and marketing your product. But I do think it's healthier to have, e.g., IBM pushing Linux than having a Microsoft-only world.

Re:Just the effect of not using Windows

[I cant believe its n]

What "free market principles" are there in Linux? Going on strict "free market principles" it wouldn't even exist, as people are being economically irrational giving away their labour (which has amounted to billions of dollars worth now) for free?

So Linux has received investements in the form of labour from a large number of stakeholders (no, not share holders), what about it? In this dog-eat-dog market, Linux has managed to prosper despite all the money and PR others have devoted to killing it.

Please explain why it is economically irrational to give away labour to a project that everybody benefits from. Are you sure that developers gain nothing by doing so?

Re:Just the effect of not using Windows

[MindlessAutomata]

Wha...? Why wouldn't a capitalist support Linux...?

I think part of the great motivation of the left, and the socialist-leaning, is a complete misunderstanding of capitalism. It's not necessarily exalting those trying to make a profit above charity or "free" things or whatever. It's simply, economically (and to simplify a bit) no master hands imposing values upon what people chose to purchase (or do). If they want to spend time or money on something "free", go ahead, that's your own prerogative.

Now, there might be some people who think that making money for the sake of making money is some higher value, but even (well, especially) the most laissez-faire free market libertarians simply believe in a true freedom of choice with an emphasis not on money but simply allowing each and every person to pursue their subjective wants without having others impose their own on them.

A lot of free market types would gladly support Linux for the obvious reason that it's competition for Microsoft, anyway. The capitalist types like to support the UNDERDOGS because it means competition and thus in theory better products. I know economic conservative that prefers AMD, for example, for the simple reason that they don't want to see Intel completely dominate the processor market in the manner that it once did.

In a more general sense though, even Linux is capitalist. Linux is, as you know, licensed under the GPL where you must provide the sources and modifications, thus "giving back"; the BSD license would be more in line with truly "free".

Basically, the motivation of the free marketer is not money, per se, it's uninhibited choice and no external forces imposing their own judgment values, good or bad.

Re:Just the effect of not using Windows

[MindlessAutomata]

Seeing your support of Chavez earlier, I think it's rather telling that you don't understand the very basics of what most free market supporters want and believe.

Most people that want a free market don't want to just see rich people get rich, a lot of them just want people to make their own decisions. You can cry about all the big businesses but barring the government giving them money, it had to come from consumers wanting their product in the first place.

Re:Just the effect of not using Windows

[rohan972]

What "free market principles" are there in Linux? Going on strict "free market principles" it wouldn't even exist, as people are being economically irrational giving away their labour (which has amounted to billions of dollars worth now) for free?

The right to use a product you legally acquire in the manner of your choosing.
The right to use that product as a base to make new products. (Subject only to you passing on that same right to others)

Works that have entered the public domain are distributed on strict free market principles, works under copyright are in general distributed in a highly regulated market. Free software licences distribute the software in a way that is significantly more aligned to free market principles than artificial copyright monopolies do. The license still relies on copyright but gives up the distribution monopoly and thus competes in the free market.

In addition, working together for common benefit is quite in line with free market principles. And the sharing of software is significantly more in line with a capitalist system than socialism. In a free market system, you can share your software with whoever you choose. In a socialist system, the government shares your software with whoever they choose whether you like it or not, and that may not include the government sharing your work with you.

As for economic irrationality, some Free software developers write it as work for hire, some to gain experience and/or a way of demonstrating their work to potential employers (ie as a loss leader), some Free software is bundled with hardware as a value addition, or a support contract as the basis of a service. All of these are quite in line with those "strict free market principles" and are not at all irrational.

gotta like a bit of source

[DrSkwid]

The official details on the BOM state the computer costs 180 to manufacture, although a source told us 369 total

But

[j_sp_r]

Does it run MATLAB?

Re:But

[seeker_1us]

Probably can run GNU OCTAVE if you want, my preferred tool over MATLAB.

Linux can run MATLAB, though.

Re:But

[synthespian]

Just be sure you have the right Linux, with the right C libraries and the right version of the GUI toolkit and possibly the right Java version and the right GCC.

Oh, and next time Linux upgrades, just cross your fingers and hope it won't break your proprietary application. You might also want to know that you might have to tweak scripts and possibly do a little reverse engineering to know what's being called when all hell breaks loose. Because that it won't work within, say, 6 months, while the WIndows guys at the next door won't be having this problem for years, literally.

If you think I'm joking, I'm describing what happened to me between Debian upgrades and Maple. I just said, the fuck with it, and since I wanna use Unix, I use a Mac nowadays.

Of course, Linux fanboys have no clue why we would want to use these proprietary tools in the first place, as they are all Evil (and they don't seem to get a clue even form the fact that the engineering community prefers these proprietary tools than their free software alternatives).

Re:But

[j_sp_r]

I need Matlab for the Simulink toolbox as well, but it runs quite well on new systems. Maybe because there are 2 releases a year.

I mean more the CPU power, not the OS

a big lie

[DirtyFly]

As a Portuguese, I'm ashamed by the publicity that is being poured intoour media, you can ear phrases like 'the fist Portuguese computer' !BULLSHIT! , this is as much as the first pt computer as my fist intel pentium ive built by purchasing parts here and there , the Portuguese government is completelly SOLD to M$ just search the web for the articles about bill gates's visit to Portugal where a large part of our government just went there to kiss ass.
Alas we are prone to this kind of bullshit in every aspect 'remember posat' the first portuguese satellite , that was 'sold' to the Portuguese public as the Portuguese built satelite, but was a kit bought and assembled in Portugal.

Re:a big lie

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF did you want!? Bill Gates comes to Portugal and the government ignores him? Are you on something?
As to the PCs, would you rather that the computers were assembled in China instead of Portugal? For fuck's sake, stop this national habit of self-depreciating everything we try to do. I am so totally sick of it.

Linux trolls make me sick ..

[rs232]

"As a Portuguese concerned about the education of the young and concerned about the economy"

01. A personal anecdote is always nice, add that much more credibility to the FUD ..

"these Magellan computers .. are nothing but a huge scam based on portuguese tax holders"

02. Linux steals from the tax payer ..

"Caixa Mágica, a portuguese GNU/Linux distribution that is horribly produced"

03. Linux distros are horribly produced ..

"thrown around at every state sponsored GNU/Linux deployment"

04. Linux is only popular at 'state sponsored' deployment ..

"No wonder people dislike GNU/Linux after using Caixa Mágica..."

05. I'm making this shit up as I go along ..

Would you mind producing a translation of these articles Linux Caixa Mágica, as your English does seem to be up to speed. hat exactly is different about Caixa Mágica as compared to Mandriva Linux?

leftist leaning Linux users .. :)

[rs232]

"It's strange how Linux gets easily picked up by leftists"

Linux & IBM ..

"There are now more than 15000 IBM Linux customer engagements worldwide, allowing customers to reduce their computing costs with solutions .."

Re:leftist leaning Linux users .. :)

[synthespian]

So, I was obviously mentioning Chavez and you mention IBM. Are you thick, or what?

I have one of this in my house right now!

[Anonymous Coward]

I am portuguese. My daughter already has one of this, since she goes to the school where our prime-minister "delivered" the first computers. I would like to say this: I am _very_ impressed by this tiny thing. Granted, Caixa Magica distro sucks big time (its an ugly, unpolished piece of crap). Granted, the only option is in fact to use XP with it. But the XP installation comes loaded with educational apps, and defaults to an "alternative" desktop suited for small kids (lots of colour, a wizard and all).
But, the computer isn't ugly, isn't heavy, and in reality is assembled in Portugal. It has a reasonable spec for the cost - including webcam, 30Gb HDD, 1024x600 display (rather nice actually, very readable), wi-fi, cable net and 2 USB 2.0 ports. I am very glad that my daughter has one (even though it will cost me 50 â).
As far as Caixa Magica, well I guess one could wipe it from the disk and replace it with (insert favorite distro). I know I will.
I think this is a visionary move. Sure, too bad about the operating system. Who cares? My daughter has been using my Ubuntu laptop since she was 4, and she is able to jump between both operating systems with ease - she actually doesn't care what OS is in the machine. I told her "look, this one is linux, and that one is windows, so some things are different, you may need some help finding your way around". Her reply was "don't worry dad, if I have any trouble I will ask for your help".
Still hasn't.

as a Portuguese ?

[rs232]

As a Portuguese ..

What part of Portugal are you from, what does this say?

"O portátil português aguenta bombardeamentos", quem o diz é Hugo Chávez. O polémico presidente fez o teste, deixou cair um exemplar ao chão, e diz-se fã do portátil português a baixo custo. Um milhão de máquinas vão ser adquiridas pela Venezuela

O disco rígido está particionado, sendo que 10GB são para o Linux Caixa Mágica, 10GB para o Windows XP e 10GB para os dados do utilizador que assim ficam disponíveis para ambos os sistemas operativos

Re:as a Portuguese ?

[DirtyFly]

Hi, Lisbon "O portátil português aguenta bombardeamentos", quem o diz é Hugo Chávez. O polémico presidente fez o teste, deixou cair um exemplar ao chão, e diz-se fã do portátil português a baixo custo. Um milhão de máquinas vão ser adquiridas pela Venezuela The Portuguese laptop can witstand bombardments , who says this is hugo chaves, the president made the test an droped the laptop on the ground, he says he is a low cost portuguese laptop fan. One million machines will be bought by venezuela O disco rígido está particionado, sendo que 10GB são para o Linux Caixa Mágica, 10GB para o Windows XP e 10GB para os dados do utilizador que assim ficam disponíveis para ambos os sistemas operativos the HDD is partitioned , being 10GB for 'caixa magica linux ' (TN : sucks) and 10GB for XP , andthe remaining 10 GB for user data so tat the user data can be available for both OS's. Jorge

it was launched over here (Portugal) ..

[rs232]

Oh, you're from Portugal as well, what does this say ?

"O portátil português aguenta bombardeamentos", quem o diz é Hugo Chávez. O polémico presidente fez o teste, deixou cair um exemplar ao chão, e diz-se fã do portátil português a baixo custo. Um milhão de máquinas vão ser adquiridas pela Venezuela

O disco rígido está particionado, sendo que 10GB são para o Linux Caixa Mágica, 10GB para o Windows XP e 10GB para os dados do utilizador que assim ficam disponíveis para ambos os sistemas operativos

Why waste their time?

[lcoscare]

why waste their time buying computers to make their population more productive when the government could instead nationalize bankrupt companies and buy toxic and worthless loans??

Naw - Negroponte takes the cake

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but to put it all on Intel is just not honest. Negroponte deserves a large part of the blame himself, by pretty much dumping the Open Source Community (after suckering a lot of people) and deciding to hop in bed with Microsoft.

At best the guy seems clueless about Open Source.

But in any case, he shot himself in the foot completely without a clue, or care, as to what he was doing.

oh no

[Anonymous Coward]

does anyone predict an IRC invasion? much like the Romanian Invasion of '03 ?

Linux Market Share.

[supernova_hq]

Anyone have any idea how much all these sub-notebooks have directly contributed to the increase in Linux usage?

Chavez's Mistake

[rumblin'rabbit]

I think this is a mistake by Chavez. Here's what Human Rights Watch has to say about Venezuela:

The Venezuelan government's expulsion of two Human Rights Watch staff underscores the Chávez administration's increasing intolerance of dissenting views, Human Rights Watch said today.

These computers will increase access to the internet in Venezuela. And there's nothing like the internet to encourage and facilitate dissenting views.

Re:Chavez's Mistake

[Artemis3]

Human Rights Watch president and aide entered Venezuela using a tourist visa (for tourism and recreation purposes only) and then proceeded with commercial/job related activities, delivering a fake report to his employers accusing the Venezuelan state, its institutions and people without any evidence whatsoever of infringing Humans rights; when it was Chavez who ended torture practices, ended forced draft (see constitution) among many other changes. On these grounds, our country used our sovereignty rights and expelled these people, whose business is blackmailing countries or else.

Re:Chavez's Mistake

[rumblin'rabbit]

Human Rights Watch is a highly credible organization. Despite being based in the U.S., they are often quite critical of it. The allegation that they blackmail countries is absurd.

So either they're lying or you are. I pick you.

Re:Chavez's Mistake

[Artemis3]

I pick them. I know what happens in my own country where i live every day, thank you.

Re:Chavez's Mistake

[rumblin'rabbit]

Funny, but I talked to a student from Venezuela last year who had a very different take on Chavez than you.

Perhaps he was mistaken. Perhaps student demonstrators were not fired on. Perhaps there are no food shortages. Perhaps everything is just swell in Venezuela.

You're quoting Pentti Linkola?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you noticed that he's an insane ecofacist who promotes genocide?

I bought one

[jsim]

I bought a magalhaes/Magellan, as a private part (I am at Portugal capitol).

The start to sell the computer at midnight. I went to the store about launch time and I found out that "first day 30% rebate, limited number" was still available, so I do not resist and bought one.

After careful analysis I found out the following.

(a) The hardware alone is a good value for the money (YES is an Intel classmate). The machine is not fast, but is a good option. For 200 euros. And seems to be roughed.

(b) No sign of Linux or open office. The machine comes with a very standard Win XP, and a licence to 2 months of a recent version of Microsoft office.

(c) Good choice for people that can not afford a more expensive one or for use as very convenient light and resistant notebook.

A few ideas

After the 2 months experience with Microsoft office most people will not be willing to pay the Microsoft tax (almost expensive as the computer...) and will change to open office.

I am hoping that someone (I am very behind technically to to able to help) manage to build a Linux distro for the machine (since it is going to be very popular). It does not have a CD reader (or DVD - although I manage to install a old USB DVD recorder) but I am almost sure that a USB-memory version/installer is possible.

A GOOD OPPORTUNITY

Jose Simoes

Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

This represents, once again, a mockery to the people of Venezuela. Classes recently started and about 70% of public schools had to close due to a lack of proper infrastructure (in other words, classrooms were falling apart, there were no bathrooms, no desks, etc.), and the only reason he is "buying" this is to promote the belief that we have a well stablished economy and to "move" money around. It is sad, but at the end they would end up being sold, even by the same teachers, in the streets, so they can get something to eat.

Ah, arguing on the Internet

[burnitdown]

Posting a link to Wikipedia is not a counterargument.

If anything that article points out that criticism of the book was inconclusive, but it has been kept out of print because it is controversial:

It is the only New York Times Bestselling book ever to remain permanently out of print.

Re:Ah, arguing on the Internet

[An Onerous Coward]

Posting a link to Wikipedia is a counterargument, if the article has an extensive criticisms section, and you're complaining that nobody is giving you specific criticisms.

As to your belief that Wikipedia "found the criticisms inconclusive," Wikipedia very rarely crowns a victor in controversies like these. Don't take their refusal as an endorsement of the book.

The point is, specific criticisms are trivial to find, except for lazy slugs who expect others to do their legwork for them.