Malaysian Blogger On Trial For Sedition

neonsignal writes "Raja Petra Kamarudin, a Malaysian blogger, is in court under the Internal Security Act, under which he can be detained indefinitely. He is well known for his commentary on the Malaysian government, and was arrested after a piece on the murder of a Mongolian woman, who was allegedly killed by two policeman and an associate of the deputy prime minister."

Comments

well

[chibiace]

at least he is not charged with sodomy like that other dude.

Fuck "sedition"

[QuantumG]

Man, it's about time that countries which value free speech got rid of sedition laws.. so as to send a clear message to countries that don't. What constitutes "sedition" is so vague, anyway, that the laws should be struck on just that basis.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[vux984]

Man, it's about time that countries which value free speech got rid of sedition laws.

Agreed.

What constitutes "sedition" is so vague, anyway, that the laws should be struck on just that basis.

Don't worry, we'll keep refining the meaning over time until its crystal clear. ;)

http://www.issuepedia.org/Night_Watch

The horrid acting and overall cheesiness in Babylon 5 becomes less noticeable the more you watch.

True the first time through. It suffers badly on repeat viewings though.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? Only those who hate freedom would ever speak seditious thoughts. And why do you want to protect them anyways?

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[slughead]

We've had one since 1940. Thank you, FDR!

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[mqduck]

Man, it's about time that countries which value free speech got rid of sedition laws

Okay, but what about Malaysia?

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[KGIII]

I think you posted in haste in an attempt to get your comment in quickly? This is MALAYSIA and this is NOT an area known for freedom of speech as near as I can tell.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[QuantumG]

I think you're unable to follow a basic argument or you're unaware that western countries also have sedition laws.

But hey, don't let that get in the way of your assumption that everyone is an idiot except you.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[KGIII]

Uh huh... Because that makes sense to you? Read what you wrote, what I responded to, and what the context was. You *might* try to save some face by attempting to change your stance after posting or to "elaborate" but no... You wanted to post quickly, get the karma points, and maybe grab a fan or two. I don't mind, if that means something to you, but I'll call it when I see it.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[QuantumG]

Everyone else understood it, including the other people who responded.

Get a clue.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[timmarhy]

no you retard, this is an asian country, western laws have nothing to do with it.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[KGIII]

I'll watch the moderation for a moment and have faith in the /. system but, no... I don't think *we* got it. It isn't that I don't like you it is that you appear to be making a claim without, you know, actually doing a lot more than being unhappy about being called on it.

I'll let you know my opinion on the matter but I doubt you'll care. So...

I think it is high time we stop trying to think our values apply to all people and allow them the freedoms required to run their own country. I don't know your values but if you want to point out "American Democracy" (and I am American) as a solution than look and see what happens. If you want to point out the "free market" then cite some evidence other than theory. If you want to point out how a theocracy of any type is bad then do so.

To blindly recommend striping a law off the books for all countries (or the likes) when the applicable country has an entirely different method of government and citing that as a reference point is purely illogical and, I may be mistaken here, the only reason I can think of for someone doing so was so that they could get their post in early and see whatever benefits they felt.

We *have* sedition laws (in THIS particular government style) to curtail specific behaviors. Can those laws be expanded to really screw us? Of course. That doesn't mean that they are bad. It also doesn't mean that CIVIL behavoirs to thwart something you feel is wrong is not okay either in these countries.

Maybe you're incapable of seeing the difference? I don't really know. Either way this is a system of government and a way of thinking for a culture that is not the same as we have here in the west. They don't equate. I tried being basic and hoping you understood but I failed it seems though it appears that other people caught the falicy and that's okay with me.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[Anonymous Coward]

(I blame ajax and my mouse for mismodding your post as funny instead of informative)

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[dangitman]

I think it is high time we stop trying to think our values apply to all people and allow them the freedoms required to run their own country.

What's the point of having a value if it doesn't apply to everybody? That makes it meaningless.

To blindly recommend striping a law off the books for all countries (or the likes) when the applicable country has an entirely different method of government and citing that as a reference point is purely illogical and, I may be mistaken here, the only reason I can think of for someone doing so was so that they could get their post in early and see whatever benefits they felt.

Which is why the poster you are responding to said to do it as an example to countries like Malaysia. He didn't say to force Malaysia to remove the laws, just to lead by example.

We *have* sedition laws (in THIS particular government style) to curtail specific behaviors. Can those laws be expanded to really screw us? Of course. That doesn't mean that they are bad.

No, but the fact that such laws are inherently bad, makes them bad. What possible reason is there for having them?

Either way this is a system of government and a way of thinking for a culture that is not the same as we have here in the west. They don't equate.

Which is why the poster you are responding to said that the west should remove these laws as an example. Or do you have a fundamental problem with reading comprehension?

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[Anonymous Coward]

Things like sedition and blasphemy haven't been legally valid offenses in any reasonable nation for a long time.

The problem is that there are still quite a few nations that aren't reasonable.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[ultranova]

I think it is high time we stop trying to think our values apply to all people and allow them the freedoms required to run their own country.

There's a little problem here: if our values don't apply to all people, why should we give them the freedom to run their own country ? We might want that freedom, but our values don't apply to them.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[sumdumass]

Surprisingly I am in agreement with you only after you expanded your comment.

I wasn't really in agreement with the parent post but wasn't sure about your angle. I'm going to posit that some people wouldn't get it after you gave it to them and your in for an uphill battle if you expect otherwise. It seems that people believe theory or make believe have more weight then reality sometimes.

Re:Fuck "sedition"

[IMightB]

It's called the ISA.....

When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

.. I read in the local English news paper about the "victory" of a muslim group that stopped the government changing a women's ID card which had her religion as Muslim.

Since she converted to Christianity she wanted her ID card changed. Yeah, that was big news at the time and gives on an insight into how backwards the place can be.

I say backwards not because it's about religion, but because I can't believe these strangers that don't know her have nothing better to do then demand the government not give her a new ID if she wants one because "if you're Muslim, you're always Muslim"

Posting Anon - I might still need to go back some day.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[rhyder128k]

Or this woman who been jailed for her terrorist poetry.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7084801.stm

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess that makes me another anonymous coward. I'm in the same boat as yourself as I don't want any of my family to 'suffer' for speaking out freely.

But until the attitudes of many of those in power changes, it doesn't matter if the sedition law is removed. They'll still jail or murder opposition but without the justification of the 'law'.

Have we all forgotten the dark events of May 13th? There are still people who have been arrested on that day who are still 'missing' today.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

First sign of a problem was that her faith was on a government card at all.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[SupremoMan]

I say backwards because the ID designates your religion....

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Chicken_Kickers]

O.k. I'm a Malaysian (Malay) and I consider myself to be quite progressive in my views. Yet, what the rest of the world does not realise is that Malaysia is sitting on a highly unstable racial powder keg. It's like a bad Tolkien-knockoff fantasy kingdom. We have the Malays who are something like the Hobbits in temperament, the Chinese who are like Dwarfs and the Indians who are just unpredictable. The Malays rule the country, the Chinese controls the economy and the Indians corner the legal and medical professions. It has been like this since the British dramatically changed the demographic from almost all Malay to something like 65% Malay, 26% Chinese, Indian 8% in less than 100 years. It didn't help that the British used divide and conquer to keep everyone in check, by assigning roles to each race. The end result is that each race wants to keep their identity, religion and language intact. Keep this in mind when you read anything about Malaysia. Malays by history and by law, are Muslims and it is firmly tied to our identity. This is why there is such a big hue and cry over the case that the AC mentioned as it is perceived more as a slap to the racial identity, than just to the religion. To Malaysian's credit, we managed to live together for 50 years, barring several flare ups. We did this by very carefully tip-toeing around controversial issues and making deals and compromises between the major races. Undeniably, this means that many issues have been swept under the rug but progress has been made. Unfortunately, many people, like the blogger mentioned (who is a Malay) are impatient and want change NOW, without realising the inherent instability of the country. My view is that change, towards a more liberal political and social environment is inevitable as the country matures but we must do it slowly and with deliberation.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[rtb61]

The catch with that is change does not occur unless, instability forces it. A minority of people speaking out who a willing to accept the risks of doing so are the ones who force positive change. The only other change that occurs, is negative change, the ones who wish to maintain a facade of traditional values, of religious observance, while they corruptly loot the country to sate their own greed and lusts. That is the reality and the religious crap is just that 'crap' a diversion to keep the poor general populace focused on other issues, rather than their livings conditions versus the living conditions of the rich and greedy or that the legal system is distorted to provide one set of laws to protect the elite and another set of laws to persecute the rest.

Change can happen very fast, it is naturally always disruptive, that is the nature of change and it is most destructive when it is blocked from happening and comes as a dam bursting. Do you know when this happens, it happens when the corrupt leaders at the top are focussed on keeping everything they have stolen and will do anything to keep the corrupt system going as it is, with nothing but platitudes of offer for the rest of the population.

Any government with sedition laws sucks, there is no excuse, they are full of it and those leaders should be treated with contempt by every one who values freedom and democracy. Slavery was a cultural thing for centuries in a lot of countries, north, south, east and west and today very thought of sickens and infuriates most reasonable people, so culture is just a weak excuse not a valid reason, neither is racism ie. they are all citizens of Malaysia so it is Malays who rule the country, Malays who control the economy and Malays who prosper in the legal and medical profession, if you see it any other way, recognise yourself, you are racist and a bigot.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

I say backwards not because it's about religion, but because I can't believe these strangers that don't know her have nothing better to do then demand the government not give her a new ID if she wants one because "if you're Muslim, you're always Muslim"

On the contrary, it is entirely about religion. In Islam, it is a capital offense to leave Islam. And in many Muslim countries (and even some non-Muslim countries), former Muslims get executed for that.

On the other hand, leaving Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Catholicism, Judaism, Mormonism, Anglicanism or Lutheranism doesn't result in a death sentence. Isn't that odd?

Islam is still stuck in 7th century barbarism. It needs to go through a renaissance. The problem is that Muslim theology says that is impossible, since Islam as revealed by Mohamed is considered to be perfect, infallible and therefore unchangeable.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop being an apologist for a repressive regime. It is people like you that ensure the dictators stay in power.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

As you sit back and enjoy your preferential ASN government bonds (mostly open for Malay or Bumi purchase only) and 7% discounts for all housing preferential university placing, and a raft of other racial benefits, please reflect that our competitiveness is shot, nobody want to invest or list in a country that requires you to give 30% of shares to Malay cronies at a steep discounts, nobody want to set up factories here when they got better places like Vietnam and China that do not have such policies.

You might have breezed through the last 20 years because other countries are more fuxked economically and Petronas is pumping all the oil you can splurge and waste on mega-projects, but things are not quite the same anymore. Reflect also on whether 30 years of preferential treatment have made your race better, more competitive, or have just enriched the select few select cronies, or reflect if racial tensions have really been reduced by these policies, or have just merely kept it from bubbling beneath out of view?

So I suggest, wake up and smell the roses. Sorry, but the option to take your own sweet time to change is a luxury your country and your race can ill afford.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Zontar The Mindless]

7th-century barbarism? Try 17th - as late as the 1690s, people in some European countries were still liable to be executed, not only for leaving Christianity, but for switching to the wrong sort of Christianity.

This in no wise excuses what is done to people in some Muslim countries today should they try to renounce Islam; I'm merely pointing out that it's not been so long since such treatment was commonplace in the West as well.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

7th-century barbarism? Try 17th - as late as the 1690s, people in some European countries were still liable to be executed, not only for leaving Christianity, but for switching to the wrong sort of Christianity.

Yes, and they have evolved far beyond that. You know, elections, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of thought.

Today, how many religions execute people who leave? I can only think of one.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[supertjx]

Chicken Kickers, the issues you mentioned are "controversial" only because those still in power at the moment made it so, by continuing the old British policy of "divide and conquer", by their racially divisive rhetoric, by propagating the myth that Malays have to depend on handouts to hold their own in their own nation. These are the very people who should be charged with sedition. As a fellow Malaysian (Chinese), I want my children to grow up in a country where they feel proud to be Malaysians first (and Chinese a distant second), where they do not have to resort to going overseas to get a halfway decent education, where those in power are there by virtue of their competence (and not due to their kris waving abilities). Personally, I feel that change, is long overdue. An entire generation has been lost (whether due to brain drain, or our half baked education system) due to the government's incompetence. Can we lose one more?

Re:When in Malaysia..

[ragethehotey]

Nice job completely leaving out that her conviction was overturned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samina_Malik

Re:When in Malaysia..

[kanweg]

Yup, and if you don't recognize it, then you invade a country to find a dictator with WMDs and lots of oil and subsequently find out you started a civil war from which you cannot withdraw as well.

The former Yugoslavia was stable under dictator Tito for 50 years. The quick change after that killed thousands.

Change must be there, but it must be slow.

I think that the slow but constant changes in Cuba instigated by Raoul Castro are great.

They guy is probably right that his country is a powder keg. It is smug to be on a high horse here.

Bert

Re:When in Malaysia..

[redhog]

Remember the bloody French Revolution. That's what changed it all. That's what gave birth to our "western freedom".

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

O.k. I'm a Malaysian (Malay) and I consider myself to be quite progressive in my views. Yet, what the rest of the world does not realise is that Malaysia is sitting on a highly unstable racial powder keg. It's like a bad Tolkien-knockoff fantasy kingdom. We have the Malays who are something like the Hobbits in temperament, the Chinese who are like Dwarfs and the Indians who are just unpredictable. The Malays rule the country, the Chinese controls the economy and the Indians corner the legal and medical professions. It has been like this since the British dramatically changed the demographic from almost all Malay to something like 65% Malay, 26% Chinese, Indian 8% in less than 100 years. It didn't help that the British used divide and conquer to keep everyone in check, by assigning roles to each race. The end result is that each race wants to keep their identity, religion and language intact. Keep this in mind when you read anything about Malaysia.

Malays by history and by law, are Muslims and it is firmly tied to our identity. This is why there is such a big hue and cry over the case that the AC mentioned as it is perceived more as a slap to the racial identity, than just to the religion. To Malaysian's credit, we managed to live together for 50 years, barring several flare ups. We did this by very carefully tip-toeing around controversial issues and making deals and compromises between the major races. Undeniably, this means that many issues have been swept under the rug but progress has been made. Unfortunately, many people, like the blogger mentioned (who is a Malay) are impatient and want change NOW, without realising the inherent instability of the country. My view is that change, towards a more liberal political and social environment is inevitable as the country matures but we must do it slowly and with deliberation.

I call FUD! The blogger is not impatient nor claim or did anything that implied he wants change NOW. Sure the country has made progress, but corruption has increase multiple folds as well. Yes, Malaysia may be heaps better compared to other developing countries, but to others its also a lot worst. If you stop comparing for a minute and look at all the resources available and see where the country can go with that, you'd realize it is way behind from where it can potentially be.

What the blogger wanted as with a lot of Malaysians is an inertia toward change. That does not equate to wanting change NOW. That inertia for change was never successfully instilled due to the iron grip rule of the ruling party (they control the media, the judicial arm, the legislative arm, the executive arm, the army, law enforcement, the anti-corruption agency) . To that effect, his blog has been successful as the internet remains the only media that is not under the control of the ruling regime. Even then, that is starting to change with baseless sedition charges.

Also, the picture you paint of Malays, Chinese and Indians living in a compromised truce is inaccurate if not an outright lie. If you are a true Malaysian who has lived like any normal Malaysian and not like the elite ruling group known as Umno-putras, you'd realize the majority of Malaysians get along pretty well. The actual segregation you mentioned lasted a bit after independence, that image though lasted till today as propaganda and FUD repeated by the elite-group controlled media and government propaganda.

Here's a trivia. In the constitution of Malaysia (article 160), Malay is not a race or ethnic group, it is defined to be a class of people such that any person of any ethnic background can become Malay. There is the Malay ethnic group, and the Malay class. You can thank the ruling Umno-putras for that.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[sir fer]

Haha what a cock. Only a truly deluded imbecile would actually believe that freedom of speech exists and that elections are run on fair and democratic grounds...freedom of religion? then why is a christian zealot running the country? It is freedom FROM religion that counts...the freedom to be agnostic or atheistic...freedom of the press? freedom of thought? yeah your free all right...free to do as you're told.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting that you mention slavery since it is still practiced by nearly everyone in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and other asian countries. It is endorsed by government and they even have a special visa service at their embassies.

Of course they don't use the word slave, they say 'helper' or 'maid', a person paid slave wages around 50-100 USD per month who lives in the house and work 6 days a week from morning to night.

No only rich people hire helpers nearly every family that has an income does (upper lower and middle class)

Re:When in Malaysia..

[XchristX]

Given that Malaysia practices the most cruel and frightening kind of racial discrimination against Chinese and Indian minorities in all of South-East Asia, with their Nazi-like (and I'm not Godwinning here) racist ideologies of Ketuanan Melayu (Malay Supremacy) and Bumiputra (meaning "sons of the soil, which literally resembles Nazi Germany's "Blut und Boden" or "Blood and Soil") and engages in state sponsored discrimination against Indians and Chinese, I would imagine that some kind of aggressive change is long pending. That or remove the minorities from the country before the Malay racists conduct genocide on them all (which is their eventual intent). I;ve spoken to many overseas Chinese and Indians in he country, and most are literally afraid for their lives. Parts of Kuala Lumpur look like Russian Shtetls, or the Warsaw Ghettoes of WW-II, with violent, Malay mob-imposed racial segregation, discrimination and stigmatization.

Notice how the racist GP stigmatizes, demonizes and dehumanizes Chinese and Indian minorities as "not tied to identity", just like the Nazis stigmatized Jews as "alien non-Aryans and unbound to the blood and soil of Germany", or whatever.

Numerous international NGO's have detailed files on the massive levels of Jim Crow-style racial stigmatization of minorities that takes place across Malay society, their media, their government, all their major institutions, and the like.

Malaysia is a massive genocide waiting to happen, unless some kind of change isn't implemented NOW, preferably through international condemnations and sanctions of some kind.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[XchristX]

Yes I agree. I would even go as far as to say that Bastille day in France was when Western civilization, as we understand and appreciate it today, was born.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[kraut]

The point is she shouldn't have been tried in the first place.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

You know nothing about history and should refrain from speaking about it publicly.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[TheLink]

There was a higher percentage of chinese during the time of British (before 1957), compared to now[0].

In the 1980s the Malaysian Government started encouraging large numbers of Indonesians to come over and become "Malays". Tons promptly came over, got Malaysian citizenship, but continued behaving like Indonesians instead of Malays (the Malays themselves tell me those aren't Malays, I dunno what do you think?).

That plus the dwindling birth rate of the Chinese (and Indians?) has led to the 65% Malay ratio.

It's interesting that those Indonesians get to be considered "Sons/Princes of the Soil" (bumiputera) whereas the Chinese who have been around for generations (especially in Malacca and Penang) are in practice still considered squatters and "immigrants" by the political leaders (ironically some of them "Malays" whose grandparents were foreigners).

It seems Indonesian terrorists can easily get Malaysian citizenship[1], whereas it's hard for decent professionals from other countries to do so. In other countries like Australia - you get extra "points" if you are a plumber or in some other desirable profession. In Malaysia it almost seems as if you get extra points if you've blown up a church or are a terrorist leader. If instead you've trained the Malaysian badminton team to win world championships, you can't even get a permanent residentship [2].

I know someone who is legally a bumiputera in Sarawak, but in practice is not considered bumiputera in Peninsular Malaysia - when he applied for some privileges the bureaucrats said he had to convert to Islam first. He basically told them to shove it.

As for Islam being firmly tied to Malay identity. Seriously look at Malay culture - look at the _Malay_ style clothes the Malay ladies were wearing before the wave of Islamization in the 70s and 80s, go ask your older relatives on Malay fashion in the 40s and 50s. Tapai is as alcoholic as beer and it's been part of Malay culture for a long time (centuries?), so much so that it's politically incorrect to make it haram (and thus change Malay weddings and kenduris a bit ;) ). Many Malays are now blindly switching to Arab culture and thinking that's Islamic culture.

BTW I know a Malay Christian who was detained under the ISA in 1987[3] - AFAIK he didn't do anything dangerous to the country. He's a rather jovial and even-tempered guy. Not someone who would wave a keris around and say inflammatory things.

Malaysians have lived together mostly in peace all these decades DESPITE the meddling of the politicians. The ruling government is the one stirring things up and doing the divide and conquer (yes the British did it, but the ruling government is doing it too).

Recently the Malaysian Government has used the ISA to detain a reporter who correctly reported inflammatory remarks made by a politician in the ruling party, instead of the politician himself[4], and used the ISA to detain a politician in the opposition party instead of the reporters/editors allegedly misreporting her remarks[5].

Did RPK (the infamous blogger) say anything that would cause large numbers of people be angry at large numbers of people? No just large numbers of people angry with their "leaders" (and in most cases justifiably so).

The Gov also has spent their time trying to jail another blogger who tried to get people to post images of the Malaysian flag upside down on the web as a sign of distress, instead of dealing with real problems like corruption.

The present leaders are the ones who have been making inflammatory remarks, and who have created a immigration system that gives terrorists citizenship (go figure how destabilizing that is).

Back in the 1969 race riots it was also the politicians who started it.

Now that the ruling party has lost its 2/3rd majority (and thus lost some power), I think it's time for the Malaysian voters to have their turn at divide and conquer - dividing and conquering the politicians.

BTW the NEP while rather flawed has done some

Re:When in Malaysia..

[witherstaff]

Simply having an ID card that gives your religion is scary enough. Well unless you're in the UK. Having a card saying you're a Jedi wouldn't be all that bad.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[NeoSkandranon]

but continued behaving like Indonesians instead of Malays

Negating all my mod points in this article thus far to ask:

Re:When in Malaysia..

[NeoSkandranon]

Doh.

To ask:

What does this mean?

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

Many Malays seem to think they're significantly different in culture/behaviour from the Indonesians (though at the same time similar enough to regard themselves as related).

AFAIK a fair number of them have grandparents from Java, Surabaya, Sumatra etc, so, how different can they be from Indonesians? The Balinese are definitely different anyway :).

Re:When in Malaysia..

[rtb61]

All dictatorships are stable, as long as anybody who protests in imprisoned, tortured and executed, see stability. Now as for Yugoslavia your only choice if you didn't want to live under a dictatorship was escape, no emigration but specifically escape, an open air prison were you were not allowed to leave and if you got caught you would be put in prison.

So I don't deny there are two sides to that coin, the exploiters and the exploited. As it turns out both my parents escaped from that country and sought freedom and democracy in another country. As for those who remained in Yugoslavia and the ensuing violence, the violence was initiated by those who wished to prevent change and maintain the status quo, where they had power. So the only real difference in the dying and suffering is whether it is public and out in the open or hidden and done behind closed doors and people just disappear.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[raju1kabir]

It has been like this since the British dramatically changed the demographic from almost all Malay to something like 65% Malay, 26% Chinese, Indian 8% in less than 100 years.

It's amazing how many Malays have no sense of the actual demographics of the country.

Malays make up 51% of the population. And it only got that high through years of concerted efforts by UMNO, such as denying citizenship to any immigrants except for Javanese Muslims who were immediately redefined as Malay upon collecting their papers.

Even if you take all bumi categories together - another popular sleight-of-hand tactic used by peninsular politicians, you don't get to 65%.

Malays by history and by law, are Muslims and it is firmly tied to our identity.

More parroting of UMNO race politics propaganda. The constitutional claim that all Malays are Muslim is as absurd as a claim declaring that the sun is made of potatoes; it is disproven by the simple fact that I know many Malays who are not Muslims. In any case, it's only a few decades old, it's not as if this "history" goes back to the days of the Prophet or something. Before large numbers of Malays were converted by the Arabs they had other beliefs, and those are just as much a part of history.

Unfortunately, many people, like the blogger mentioned (who is a Malay) are impatient and want change NOW, without realising the inherent instability of the country. My view is that change, towards a more liberal political and social environment is inevitable as the country matures but we must do it slowly and with deliberation.

That is what people who never want change tell you to say.

In actual fact, Malaysia's undercurrent of instability is a direct result of the clannist, racist nature of the country's politics. BN has taken divide-and-conquer to heights the British could only dream of.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[raju1kabir]

Malaysia is a massive genocide waiting to happen

You may not have to wait that long, since Najib "bathe my dagger in Chinese blood" Tun Razak is sitting in the lobby being fitted for his PM's songkok.

A man who stood at a podium, waved a weapon, and made a death threat aimed at 24% of the population is currently the most likely person to be the next Prime Minister (unless Anwar pulls something pretty amazing out of his hat in the next few days). Historically, this sort of development does not augur well for the future.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[raju1kabir]

Not much. Acting Indonesian means different accent, some different vocabulary, different recipes, subtly different clothing, and much better rhythm.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

Racial Integration.
Unfortunately, racial integration and harmony in Malaysia is unlikely because generation of her people are indoctrinated with the following.

The Malays rule the country, the Chinese controls the economy and the Indians corner the legal and medical professions.

The ruling elite.
Obvious signs of festering corruptions and abuse of civil rights committed by the ruling elite is the cause of concern here. The blogger, who is a Muslim himself, wasn't arrested because he insulted Islam. He made a comment about the murder with a possible connection to the deputy prime minister.

Citizenship.
It's a fact known to all Malaysian who are born non-Malay and thus not of "bumiputra" (son of earth), they are born as 2nd class citizen in their own country. Ironically, Malaysia's national anthem reminds her citizens that you are born on and are of this land.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[amilo100]

Wasn't Western Freedom killed shortly after the French Revolution? After the French revolution the most unfree system was implemented: conscription.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

> Malays by history and by law, are Muslims and it is firmly tied to our identity.

Belonging to a religion "by law" and not by choice is a medieval concept no longer familiar in the west. Let's hope that your country can get over it as well.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[rhyder128k]

In all fairness, on closer examination, it would seem that the press reports aren't entirely accurate. It seems that she was charged primarily for possession of terrorist instructional materials. However, her poetry was taken into account.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[sumdumass]

I would say perhaps it is time for the CIA to assassinate someone but then again, I'm reminded that world war one started with an assassination of one person.

It looks like a lot of good people are between a rock and a hard place or about to be anyways. It will probably get ugly before it gets better.

Re:When in Malaysia..

[Anonymous Coward]

"Malaysia is a massive genocide waiting to happen, unless some kind of change isn't implemented NOW"

Are you kidding me??
Please dont compare the Nazi and the Malays.
Malaysia have given you the freedom to control the economy and participate in the politics.

The last time I check there used to be racial riots in Malaysia. But it NEVER turn into a mass genocide. Because the GOVERNMENT handles it very well. Just look at yourself and compare and you bloody know that you better off than most of the malays who are still living in poverty. The problem now is that UMNO and the whole BN is a corrupt piece of shit and everyone is sick of it.

Dont you blame the Malays when you damn know when it is the fault political parties that played between racial lines.

Works for me

[susano_otter]

While I can't speak to the specifics of this particular government, or this particular implementation of the policy, I don't see any reason why sedition on a blog should be treated any differently from sedition on a streetcorner or a radio program or a billboard or a secret revolutionary committee meeting (for some definition of "sedition"; and obviously your mileage will vary based on local customs, values, and priorities).

Re:Works for me

[argent]

I don't see any reason why sedition on a blog should be treated any differently from sedition on a streetcorner or a radio program or a billboard or a secret revolutionary committee meeting

I agree. If a society can't survive dissent it shouldn't survive. None of these should be suppressed.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

Dissent and sedition are two separate things.

Sedition aims to disrupt the public peace. Most societies, I imagine are quite capable of surviving disruption of the public peace, but that doesn't mean all--or even any--such disruptions should be permitted.

But of course the specifics will vary from society to society. What may be good-naturedly tolerated as peaceful dissent in one society may be quite rightly suppressed as an unacceptable threat to the public peace in another society.

And of course none of this (while covered quite clearly in my original post) has anything at all to do with my point.

Re:Works for me

[philspear]

I don't see any reason why sedition on a blog should be treated any differently from sedition on a streetcorner or a radio program or a billboard or a secret revolutionary committee meeting

The streisand effect comes to mind. Even if you're okay with censorship, doing it on the internet is stupid. You can arrest someone on the street corner and silence them. If you arrest someone for a post on a blog, you're only going to get more people to read that post.

Granted, it would be more effective in the long run for the fascist to jail the blogger, but it's less effective if there's a particular post you want buried. Like if you are a dictator or prime minister wanting to, say, keep quiet the fact that a friend of yours and some of your police murdered someone, arresting the blogger is stupid, since the blog is then probably going to get posted to a website for nerds and distributed around the world, increasing the number of people who know.

Re:Works for me

[sexconker]

Free speech is meaningless unless speech is completely, universally free.

There should be absolutely zero restrictions on what can be said.

Re:Works for me

[MarkvW]

"If a society can't survive dissent it shouldn't survive?"

Such a statement is either flamebait or idiocy. The person who wrote it must not be able to conceive of the great pain and suffering that social disorder can bring. A society should not be scrapped just because it does not realize the author's ideal of social justice.

A stable, imperfect, society can always be replaced by something much worse. The social fabric, once torn, can be very hard to re-weave.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

Actually, the propaganda side-effects of martyrdom were well understood and commonly experienced long before the Internet came around. Blogs are a different form of communication, sure, but they're not magical. They may change the values of some of the variables of the propaganda equation, but they don't actually replace the propaganda equation itself.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm inciting your neighbors to riot, or urging them to lynch you, or advocating election fraud.

Re:Works for me

[Fulcrum of Evil]

So I can say that you're available on the 'ave by the nickname '3 buck chuck'? Think on what you say.

Re:Works for me

[philspear]

Blogs are a different form of communication, sure, but they're not magical.

What about blogs about magic then, smart guy!?!

Anyway, you're right about martyrdom, good point. And even without the internet, this was a well publicized event that wasn't quiet, the news in Malasia was reporting this apperantly.

Re:Works for me

[eosp]

Sometimes letting the idiots speak is much more effective at achieving your goals than banning their speech. For example, Westboro Baptist Church.

Re:Works for me

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Bah, I've had this argument before. Telling people to riot should be perfectly legal. If they actually riot, the charges should be incitement to riot. If they don't riot, there should be no charges at all.

Free Speech means you can say whatever you want. It doesn't mean that there is no accountability for what your speech causes. If the speech causes something illegal to happen, then the illegal activity is the problem, not the speech.

Re:Works for me

[KGIII]

In *your* society perhaps. When are you going to accept that freedom is not what you think it means but rather allowing other cultures to have their disparate values/morals/ethics and to make their own choices as to how they will retain their civilization and culture? Your statement rings eerily like the idea that we're at war in Iraq for democracy - forcing our views on other people.

Re:Works for me

[Merusdraconis]

So what about hate speech, then? Do you really think anyone's going to arrest Sean Hannity for spewing his bile all over the airwaves?

Saying "hurrah free speech for everyone" only invites the nutjobs to spread their poison, and no-one will do anything because it'd be restricting their speech. Sometimes the chilling effect is a good thing, and lord knows we could do with a lot more people thinking before they speak.

The irony does not escape me.

Re:Works for me

[dangitman]

Saying "hurrah free speech for everyone" only invites the nutjobs to spread their poison, and no-one will do anything because it'd be restricting their speech.

And that would work a lot better. Do nothing - they speak, and make idiots of themselves, people ignore them.

Suppress their speech, then they can play the victim card, become martyrs, validate conspiracy theories. Things go downhill quickly as the nutters join the squirrel parade.

Re:Works for me

[dangitman]

So, what's a culture? What makes a society? Where do you draw the lines between the rights of a culture or society, and the rights of an individual?

Also, I don't recall the person you are replying to saying that we should force anything on other people. Just that free speech is meaningless unless it's completely free. How does that result in the conclusion that it's about forcing people to do something?

Re:Works for me

[dangitman]

OK, so why should it survive if it can't survive dissent? Must be a pretty weak-ass society. Societies should expect dissent. It's unrealistic not to.

Re:Works for me

[HungryHobo]

But then it boils down to the fact that hate speech offends you.

So what makes it ok to censor something that offends you but not things which offend someone else keeping in mind that EVERYTHING is offensive to someone.

Make it illegal to say "all black men are evil" and you'll find the same legislation being used to lock up someone for saying "the government is full of evil rich white men"

Let the nut jobs shout, let the crazies spew their bile and if they manage to convince someone to commit a serious crime then those people can be held just as accountable for their actions as they would be if they'd thought it all up in their own crazy little heads.

If you shout "fire" in a crowded theatre and you cause people to be hurt then sure, you should be held accountable but banning you from saying it is something else entirely.

Once you start cutting into free speach then it's only a matter of time before those lovely laws you supported banning offensive speech or insulting groups of people get turned around and used to put you in jail for saying "fuck the government"

Re:Works for me

[argent]

Dissent and sedition are two separate things.

The distinction between dissent and sedition is undetectable outside the mind of the person expressing dissent or engaging in sedition. It is, at most, a difference in degree, not kind, unless one takes a position that any call to action is seditious speech rather than an expression of dissent.

Neither dissent nor sedition is action. If someone cries "kill whitey" but nobody takes action, then where is the crime? If they do, then the crime is in the action. If merely calling for action inevitably leads to action, then that society is either going to change so it no longer tolerates the conditions that make that possible, or it will not survive.

Re:Works for me

[argent]

The person who wrote it must not be able to conceive of the great pain and suffering that social disorder can bring.

Or has more faith in the stability of society. Perhaps I should have written "A society that can not survive dissent will not survive". The conditions that make dissent (however expressed) so prevalent and violent that it threatens the fabric of society are themselves fatal, and if not changed will bring about a collapse.

In that environment, permitting the expression of dissent, including "seditious speech", is probably the only way to ensure that those conditions WILL change. Because when you suppress speech you leave dissent no channel but violence... and violence does not lead to a more stable society.

If the society can survive the suppression of dissent, then it can equally well survive the dissent. Speech will not bring a society down, and suppressing speech will only make it weaker.

Re:Works for me

[argent]

I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm inciting your neighbors to riot, or urging them to lynch you, or advocating election fraud.

If my neighbors are likely to riot, or lynch me, then keeping you from calling on them to won't help. if they already hate me enough to act, then they will likely act regardless. It wasn't sedition that ignited the South Central riots, it was the voice of authority.

Advocating election fraud could only strengthen the voting process, by providing hard evidence that flaws in the voting process will be exploited if they're not fixed.

Re:Works for me

[argent]

So, for example, a society that systematically kills thousands of its own citizens should be left to do that in peace, without raising a voice in protest? Should we turn a blind eye to members of that society who call out against it, and are jailed or tortured or even killed as a result? Or should we try to change it, even if only by raising our voices in common protest? Should even that small abandonment of cultural relativism (because nothing more than that is happening here) be considered unacceptable?

Think about it before you answer, OK?

Re:Works for me

[argent]

My response remains the same. The fact that it happened to a blogger doesn't change the fact that it's unacceptable.

Re:Works for me

[raju1kabir]

The streisand effect comes to mind. Even if you're okay with censorship, doing it on the internet is stupid. You can arrest someone on the street corner and silence them. If you arrest someone for a post on a blog, you're only going to get more people to read that post.

It is probably important to know that a couple weeks before RPK was kidnapped by UMNO, his blog was blocked within Malaysia by order of the government and in violation of Malaysian law. When this happened, mirrors sprang up instantly, and every blogger in the country linked to them, probably getting his site far more traffic than it ever had before. The government then cancelled the block order, and went after the source of the material instead.

Re:Works for me

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Hate speech is despicable, but not illegal.

The response to hate speech is good speech. This is the lesson learned from opposing Klan rallies across the country. They do have the right to march and speak. But the rest of us also have the right to march and speak as well. When the Klan marches, that is a call to the rest of us to also march, to oppose their hateful message.

I'm surprised that you could reach an age where you could post all by yourself on Slashdot and not know this. My child is 4 and she already knows this.

Re:Works for me

[sexconker]

Yes, hate speech should be free.

Whenever I say that free speech should be absolute and universal, why the fuck do people always chime in with a dozen "what about ..."?

Yes. The answer is yes.
Anyone can say anything.

Hate speech, death threats, nuclear launch codes, I don't give a shit.

Re:Works for me

[sexconker]

Yes, you can say that.
You can say any fucking thing you want.

Re:Works for me

[sexconker]

Your post makes very little sense, and I don't see how it's related to anything I've said, but...

Freedom IS what I think it means, dipshit.

In your society...
One group says a thief should be killed for robbery, the other group says he can't be killed because his beliefs are against the death penalty.

Such a society cannot function.

Freedom of speech has NOTHING to do with culture.
Freedom in general has NOTHING to do with culture.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

I have no problem criminalizing attempted robbery, or attempted murder, or attempted incitement to riot. I also have no problem criminalizing conspiracy to commit any of these crimes.

Waiting until after the lynching has actually taken place is usaully not a good method for preventing the harm that a lynching causes.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

And sometimes it isn't. What's your point?

Re:Works for me

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Now see, that's the kind of fearful reaction that causes more problems than it solves. If a person's guilt in a crime is determined by some other person's interpretation of something that was merely spoken, then almost anybody can be arrested for almost anything.

We're not even talking about "attempted" as a distinction, which you bring up as a red herring. It's irrelevant to the conversation. An attempt at murder is an action, as is attempted burglary. But attempted incitement to riot? How do you know?

And your example of waiting until the lynching takes place is illogical. If a policeman is there to witness some supposed "incitement to lynch" then they will be there to see the rope go over the tree limb. Or, the policeman can act on disturbance of the peace. Or, they can act on a hundred other things to break up the crowd. Hell, make a law against molesting trees. But the policeman can't go over to the speaker and say "I don't like what you are saying, so I'm going to shut you up by throwing you in jail."

The charge levied against any American cannot be "speech offensive to the king" Pick something else. If you can't stop a lynching before it happens without infringing on the right to speech, then you're too dumb to be making up laws.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

My response remains the same. The fact that it happened to a blogger doesn't change the fact that it's unacceptable.

Which is, in fact, exactly my point: Blogger, schmogger, dum-diddly-ogger. If you think sedition is a problem, it's a problem in whatever form it happens to take. If you don't think it's a problem, it's not a problem regardless of the form it happens to take.

If the Malaysian govenrment wants to crack down on "sedition", being a "blogger" is completely irrelevant to the crackdown question. The operative factor is the sedition, not the blogging.

Re:Works for me

[argent]

If the Malaysian govenrment wants to crack down on "sedition", being a "blogger" is completely irrelevant to the crackdown question. The operative factor is the sedition, not the blogging.

So how exactly does it "work for you" then?

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

Or, the policeman can act on disturbance of the peace.

Or a policeman can act on an attempt to disturb the peace, before the disturbance has taken place. Just like the policeman can act on a conspiracy to rob a bank, before the robbery (or attempted robbery) has taken place.

But I think "attempting to disturb the peace", while a perfectly real and valid form of crime, is probably not one of the more clear-cut or universally applicable examples of criminal behavior.

Which is why I've been saying from the beginning that the thing will vary from society to society, based on local priorities, values, etc. Some societies, having a very real problem with the frequency of rabble-rousing and the likelihood of extremely violent results, may see a very real need to crack down on such activities, at least long enough for them to sort out some of the underlying issues without having to worry about violent flare-ups every few days.

Other societies, with a long tradition of vocal but peaceful dissent, where everybody is generally calm and content enough to consider agitators in a peaceable manner, may find it totally unnecessary (and probably even ethically repellent) to restrict such attempts at rabble-rousing in any way.

And of course this is still beside my point: Sedition is sedition, whether it's a "blogger" or not. If you don't have a problem with it, then a seditious blog is no more of a problem than a seditious handbill. If you do have a problem with it, the it's just as much a problem on a streetcorner as on a webserver.

Re:Works for me

[argent]

I also have no problem criminalizing conspiracy to commit any of these crimes.

What does that have to do with "sedition"? Sedition means any speech that the government can construe as being "intended to bring down the established order", which is trivially and frequently interpreted to include pretty much any dissenting voice. Conspiracy requires a means, a motive, and actual progress (generally through some kind of overt act) towards accomplishing the goal. Conspiracy is also a covert act, you don't engage in conspiracy by posting blogs or handbills, or speaking on television, radio, or in the town square.

Conspiracy has nothing to do with this arrest. This is all about the abuses of sedition laws, whether in Malaysia in 2008 or in the United States in 1789.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

So how exactly does it "work for you" then?

It "works" for me because so what if he's a blogger? It "works" for me the same way a Slashdot article about Your Rights On the Street Corner: Malaysian Orator On Trial For Sedition works for me. The story is the sedition, and the government crackdown, not the blogging. Except, of course, on Slashdot, the story is always about the blogging, even when the blogging actually contributes nothing at all to the story except a feeble excuse to put it on the front page.

"Oh, but this man is a blogger! His trials and tribulations must be special!" No, they're not. He's a blogger? Okay, fine. He's on trial for sedition? Sure, whatever. Maybe it's wrong, maybe it isn't. Any reason why his being a blogger should make a difference one way or the other? No? Works for me.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

Sedition means any speech that the government can construe as being "intended to bring down the established order"

Depends on your dictionary and the spin you want to put on it, I guess. I've given the definition with which I've been working further up the thread.

Conspiracy requires a means, a motive, and actual progress (generally through some kind of overt act)

An overt act like going out on a streetcorner and inciting people, for example?

Conspiracy has nothing to do with this arrest.

Neither does blogging.

This is all about the abuses of sedition laws.

Agreed. It's also not about blogging.

Re:Works for me

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Or a policeman can act on an attempt to disturb the peace, before the disturbance has taken place. Just like the policeman can act on a conspiracy to rob a bank, before the robbery (or attempted robbery) has taken place.

What does a disturbance of the peace look like before the peace is disturbed? It's all nice and quiet. Are we to then arrest all people being quiet on the theory that they were about to disturb the peace?

But you're still using stupid analogies. Before a robbery, there's evidence of what the robbers are planning. Perhaps they are stopped in their van with masks, guns, and demand notes to hand to the tellers. The analogy is worthy of a 7th grader.

And of course this is still beside my point: Sedition is sedition, whether it's a "blogger" or not. If you don't have a problem with it, then a seditious blog is no more of a problem than a seditious handbill. If you do have a problem with it, the it's just as much a problem on a streetcorner as on a webserver.

Sedition is just a particular kind of offensive speech. I have no problem with it, and in fact I think it's time we took torches to the capital building itself. I think we SHOULD put kegs of powder in the basement and blow it sky high. The people don't need a building, they need a symbol. I am calling for open revolt right now. Take to the streets and kill all the symbols of the establishment. Burn the towns and kick in wealthy heads. Let's do this. Tomorrow at 4 PM, right after my favorite soap opera. Deal?

Now arrest me. Arrest yourself. You're the product of sedition, if you were part of a former colony of a regent. What would you call a revolution or an independence movement?

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

Look. I have no problem with "sedition" in principle. I don't even know if the Malaysian government is justified in cracking down on it. I can imagine hypothetical contexts in which sedition might actually be a problem. I can also imagine hypothetical scenarios in which a government--for whatever reason, right or wrong--might see value in cracking down on "sedition". And in none of those scenarios does blogging vs. not-blogging make any difference to the definition of "sedition" or to the value of cracking down on it, as far as I can tell.

That's been my point--my only point--from the start, and your opinions on the definition of sedition and the appropriate treatment of it by society, are squarely beside it.

Now, if you want to discuss whether or not "blogging" is a special case of sedition, or dissent, or free speech, or Malaysian get-out-of-jail-free cards, be my guest.

HTH. HAND.

Re:Works for me

[argent]

Um, OK.

I really don't think I'm completely unreasonable getting confused by the subject, since I'm still not quite sure what you mean by it. But, whatever works for you.

Re:Works for me

[argent]

An overt act like going out on a streetcorner and inciting people, for example?

That would generally be "incitement to riot". For "conspiracy" it would be more like buying fuel oil and fertilizer.

It's also not about blogging.

No, it's about dissent. Who's making it about blogging?

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

Nope, I don't think you're unreasonable at all. I can see how you might be confused. I'm sorry it didn't work for you :)

Re:Works for me

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Hey, you can say what you want, and you can suggest I'm whatever. But when someone starts saying anything close to the idea that sedition laws might be legitimate, they're going to have to speak louder than me. You're free to speak, but anyone who can hear you will hear me too.

THAT is my purpose. I could actually give a shit about what you think of sedition and blogging or whatever wankery you want to go on about. You might not be sure if the Malaysian government is right to crack down on sedition. If I might use a bogus analogy of my own, some Nazis weren't quite sure if Hitler was right to crack down on the Jews either. Hope you figure it out soon.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

But when someone starts saying anything close to the idea that sedition laws might be legitimate...

I think that some sedition laws, in some circumstances, might be legitimate.

...they're going to have to speak louder than me. You're free to speak, but anyone who can hear you will hear me too.

How's your Malaysian audience doing? Are they hearing you loud and clear? Will you be sending me a postcard from Kuala Lumpur anytime soon?

Re:Works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the GP, but I would 100% support your right to say those things. But keep in mind that if anyone then acted upon your words, you would be liable for their actions.

Freedom of speech != freedom from responsibility.

Re:Works for me

[Profane MuthaFucka]

How's your Malaysian audience doing? Are they hearing you loud and clear? Will you be sending me a postcard from Kuala Lumpur anytime soon?

Careful now, when an American says they are going to be bringing an alternative viewpoint to your country you might think they mean via a newspaper thrown by a bicycled boy onto your porch. That bicycled boy might actually be an Army division, and they'll use a rocket to deliver it to your porch.

But last I checked, you were speaking mainly in America, to Americans. So I'm doing quite fine. And legitimate sedition laws? Hitler said that I think. Maybe it was Satan.

Re:Works for me

[susano_otter]

But last I checked, you were speaking mainly in America, to Americans.

Last I checked, America didn't really have a problem with sedition or sedition laws. It's not like your Internet slap-fights actually "threaten the established order", or "disrupt the public peace", or whatever you want to call it. And it's not like the government is going to persecute you for anything you've posted here.

So I'm doing quite fine.

Meanwhile, people in Malaysia aren't doing fine at all. Malaysia needs you a lot more than America does, but for them you have nothing.

Re:trial shmial

[chibiace]

i certainly wouldnt want to be stuck with elmo.

Hmm.. Sedition

[Creepy Crawler]

Have the plebes learned? One doesnt mess with those authority types, especially when they revel in power?

Happens here in the USA, happens in UK, happens in Germany, happens in Australia, and damn near everywhere else where there is power at a few people and the will to keep it.

Malaysia is NO different in that regard. We just cover it up a bit better.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[TorKlingberg]

As much as I hate the erosion of civil rights in the west, I don't see bloggers getting arrested for sedetion. Or are you saying they are secretly arrested and replaced by CIA men, so nobody notice they are gone?

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[steelfood]

First they came for the communists...

Talk to the many muslim leaders in the US whom have been arrested for preaching hatred towards western civilization.

BTW, the bloggers are mentioned in the 5th stanza.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[naturjunge]

I'm sorry but sedition != preaching hatred.

"The leaders of this country are corrupt and you should examine their actions and motivations" != "The leaders of this country are the spawn of the devil and it is your duty to kill them".

I suppose the gray area is something like "The leaders of this country are corrupt and you should get rid of them".

Is this a call for violence or a rallying call to become involved in the electoral process. Of course getting involved in the electoral process itself has been cause for imprisonment in Malaysia.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[owlnation]

As much as I hate the erosion of civil rights in the west, I don't see bloggers getting arrested for sedetion. Or are you saying they are secretly arrested and replaced by CIA men, so nobody notice they are gone?

No need to replace anyone. People give up on blogs in their hundreds ever single day. How would you know? It would only be a blogger that could tell you. Or do you think CNN or Fox News or any mainstream news outlet will? How would you know?

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

Talk to the many muslim leaders in the US whom have been arrested for preaching hatred towards western civilization.

Name one.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[Brain Damaged Bogan]

it doesn't happen here in Australia...
if it did do you think the Chasers would still be walking free? (the blokes that gate-crashed APEC under the Canadian flag)

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[n dot l]

Don't you watch the news? There is no sedition in Western nations. There are only consumers, harmless foil-clad lunatics, criminals, and a few terrorists.

But yeah, cynical statements aside, there's less control here because the government simply doesn't fear us. Honestly, I could wear my fingers to the bone blogging about $700B bailouts, Iraq, Guantanamo, torture, the politicization of the DoJ, the Valerie Plame thing, etc, and nothing would happen to me because honestly my voice is worthless when it comes to these topics. People have seen it on the news so many times that the reaction is just, "Meh, shit happens." and nothing changes. Random words on the internet won't start riots, strikes, or boycotts, nor do they change anyone's vote in a meaningful way (how could they? elections are a popularity contest) - so why bother censoring?

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[SpecBear]

Can you provide any examples of Muslim leaders who have been arrested in the US for preaching hatred?

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[owlnation]

there's less control here because the government simply doesn't fear us.

Mod parent insightful.

Yes. That's the thing. Hiding in plain sight. The truth is in fact out there, plain as day. But no-one cares. The fact that the media is for the most part complicit or even controlling much of what happens in the West notwithstanding.

This is the mistake of Malaysia and China and the old soviet states. Don't throw people in prison for speaking out, just make sure that reality tv and celebrities behaving badly is much bigger news. That way you can do anything you like. Anything at all.

Bread and circuses. It's astonishing that it's taken modern Governments so long to figure this out, the Romans nailed it 2000 years ago.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[H0p313ss]

We just cover it up a bit better.

Better than who exactly? Stalin?

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[khallow]

Honestly, I could wear my fingers to the bone blogging about $700B bailouts, Iraq, Guantanamo, torture, the politicization of the DoJ, the Valerie Plame thing, etc, and nothing would happen to me because honestly my voice is worthless when it comes to these topics.

Yes, whining like a kicked puppy is surprisingly uninteresting or useful.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[jandersen]

there's less control here because the government simply doesn't fear us.

Not quite - there is just another kind of control in the West. Western governments have learned that they don't need to worry about opposition as long as you give them some harmless way of venting their anger; why do you think there are so many extremely loud idiots on American television? It's a very efficient way of controlling the population.

As for China and Malaysia - I don't know Malaysia, of course, but I think if there is one thing the Beijing Olympics have demonstrated, it is that the Chinese people are right behind their government in most cases. I suspect this is the case in Malaysia too; and that is something we have to take into account when we make wise about what happens in other countries.

In most countries the government has sprung from the same culture as the people they govern, and their actions are an expression of that culture. So if the Malaysian government oppresses conversions from Islam, it is not unreasonable to contemplate the possibility that most Malaysians think that this is the right thing to do. And if the government rules in accordance with the wishes of the people, do we have any right to interfere?

Try to look at it from their perspective - would you like some foreigners to come and criticize your country, your culture and everything you believe in and are proud of?

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[Bryansix]

Lame. You would know because of the anonymity of the Internet. If I had that happen to me I would simply go to a kiosk at a local university and create a onetime use email address and from there create a new blog with one post that described what had just happened to me.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[raju1kabir]

if there is one thing the Beijing Olympics have demonstrated, it is that the Chinese people are right behind their government in most cases. I suspect this is the case in Malaysia too

Actually, Malaysians are quite cynical about their government and it's hard to find anyone who has anything nice to say about it.

Malaysia is not like China in this regard - you can complain and grumble quite a lot without running into trouble. It's only when you start getting too close to the specific issue of the corruption of the perennially ruling party (or its red herring proxy issues of race and religion) that you have to watch your back.

Re:Hmm.. Sedition

[shutdown -p now]

Preaching mass murder is not even close to sedition.

Re:trial shmial

[LingNoi]

Yeah, but I'd rather be in gitmo then a Malaysian prison, or worse its neighbour, a Thai prison. In a Thai prison the guards will give you a chance to run for freedom and get shot rather then spend your sentence there eating cockroaches for nutrition (no I am not exaggerating).

that link is not safe for work in some places

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh nice, a link to Aljazeera. That will really look great in the server log.

Re:that link is not safe for work in some places

[freedumb2000]

I really hope you are not serious.

Re:that link is not safe for work in some places

[DaleCooper82]

Oh nice, a link to Aljazeera. That will really look great in the server log.

Shows the sad state of matters at your place/in your mind. Self censorship well done; did you report the submitter to authorities? That is probably what's left to make it complete 1984.

Go ahead and mode me down, have karma to burn, I guess. But this got me started as AJE is as reliable news source as any other, with ex BBC, CNN, ABC, Fox etc. people working there.

Re:that link is not safe for work in some places

[meringuoid]

Oh nice, a link to Aljazeera. That will really look great in the server log.

What's the problem with al-Jazeera? They're about the only independent Arabic-language station there is, consisting in large part of ex-BBC staff who went their own way after the World Service shut down their Arabic branch. Everyone else is under the thumb of some government or other. Are we not in favour of freedom of speech and information here? Plenty of Arab governments have tried from time to time to silence al-Jazeera, and so have the Americans, occasionally with GPS-guided explosives, yet they're still going - must be doing something right.

Re:that link is not safe for work in some places

[rossz]

I read a few weeks ago that one of the ex-BBCers quit al-Jazeera because he got tired of being a terrorist sock puppet. Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read it, so I guess it's not true.

Re:that link is not safe for work in some places

[Anonymous Coward]

Plenty of Arab governments have tried from time to time to silence al-Jazeera, and so have the Americans, occasionally with GPS-guided explosives...

In the absence of any other information, the fact that both sides of the conflict are trying to shut them up inclines me to believe that they're trustworthy.

Re:trial shmial

[TinFoilMan]

Yeah, but have you seen those thai cockroaches, they'd feed a family of 8 for a week.

If a Thai monkey doesn't move for 60 seconds, the cockroaches think it's fair game and they'll carry it off.

A moment to admire your country

[bonch]

Despite all the criticism people direct at their country, the fact is that you're allowed to voice that criticism without getting thrown in jail. Incidents like this are a reminder that maybe the country you might criticize so much isn't as bad as it's made out to be, and that it really is a haven for free thought in an often dark world.

Re:A moment to admire your country

[JoaoPinheiro]

Or maybe it's a taste of what it might become without such criticism.

Re:A moment to admire your country

[bonch]

Indeed, which is why our freedom to do so is that much more precious.

Re:A moment to admire your country

[XchristX]

Constructive criticism, even if it is strident polemic, is fine and even worth aggressively defending by those who value true liberty.

What passes for "criticism" on slashdot, however, is not criticism in the political sense of the word, but knee-jerk Hesperophobia and anti-Americanism, and is grossly disproportionate on many levels. America, for all it's woes, is not as oppressive or repressive as Malaysia, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Balkan Countries, the Maghreb, or any other third world disaster area, nor will it ever be.

All this so-called "critiism" is largely the result of far-left "postmodernism" and "multicuturalism" in some sections of American society that is deeply disturbing. Both postmodernism and multiculturalism are Orwellian bullshit of the highest order, and are a third-world-leftist strategy to undermine the values and principles that define American society and the American Nation (which still gives refuge and succor to millions of immigrants like myself fleeing the third world paradises of the left).

The situation in Malaysia is truly dire, thanks to the institutional racism against overseas Chinese and Indian communities (based on their state ideology of "Ketuanan Melayu" ie Malay Supremacy and "Bumiputra" ie sons of the soil, similar to the "Blut und Boden" ie "Blood and soil" ideology of Nazi Germany), the de-facto Islamofascist theocracy, widespread corruption and a violent, genocidal collective attitude that makes all their neighbors uneasy.

Re:A moment to admire your country

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, I started glancing at your post and thought you were only incompetent, but you're just a real hate spewing idiot aren't you?

Re:A moment to admire your country

[KGIII]

I don't presume to speak for the GP but instead of glancing you might try reading and not looking away when you don't agree because it upsets your spoon-fed line of thinking. Instead of jumping to conclusions you can think for yourself. When are those people who espouse freedom going to actually allow other people to be free by their own definition?

Re:A moment to admire your country

[Anonymous Coward]

See, now this shows your bias. I did read it, and then I knew he was a hate spewing idiot. I posed a rhetorical question to see if he realized what he had written.

Re:A moment to admire your country

[XchristX]

That's okay. I expected a militant extremist response like the one the AC spewed out notice his use of ad hominem attack instead of argument, proving that I touched a real raw nerve of truth there. That's leftists for you. When they can;t respond intelligently, they respond by fascistic tactics.

Re:A moment to admire your country

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said I was leftist? You're ignorant here, that crosses all lines. I hate idiots.

Re:trial shmial

[fishbowl]

>A USian would just wind up in gitmo.

Cite please? Just a single case of a US Citizen being incarcerated there will do.

I call bullshit.

[nobodyman]

Really? Happens all the time? Interesting. Then I suppose you can cite one instance in the USA, UK, Germany, or Australia where a citizen has been incarcerated for a minimum of two years without trial for a blog post that is critical of the government. Go ahead and include some links under my post. Take your time. I'll wait.

Your post is offensive on multiple levels: It minimizes Kamarudin's plight ("well what else should you expect when you criticize the government?"), but it also makes the claim that *every* other nation has just as bad a civil rights record. I can tell that you've never spent much time in Malaysia.

Re:I call bullshit.

[owlnation]

Then I suppose you can cite one instance in the USA, UK, Germany, or Australia where a citizen has been incarcerated for a minimum of two years without trial for a blog post that is critical of the government.

Granted, not specifically two years (maybe, I haven't checked) and not for a blog post, however people in the early 70's in the UK were indeed incarcerated on a ship on a lake in Northern Ireland for long periods without trial. Read up on Internment, and then come back and call us all paranoid. The UK categorically does NOT have the right to freedom of speech. And in the UK you do NOT have the right to remain silent, since remaining silent can be construed as an admission of guilt in UK law.

Re:I call bullshit.

[nobodyman]

Are you referring to the Prevention of Terrorism Acts? From what I can tell you could be held for up to seven days without being formally charged with a crime. It would be a *big* stretch to equate this with Malaysia's Internal Security Act, under which they can hold you *indefinitely* (though the Malaysian government claims that Kamarudin will be held for at least two years).

I'm not making the claim that these other countries are perfect. I'm refuting the GP's claim that all countries are just as bad. To say such a thing is just lazy relativism that trivializes the situation that this blogger is in.

Re:I call bullshit.

[negatonium]

Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, and Lewis Black routinely say some pretty awful things about those in power. Until Stewart is arrested for tax evasion, Maher for harboring terrorists and Black for... well being an asshole, I will hold out hope that Freedom of Speech at least is still flickering in my country.

Re:I call bullshit.

[KGIII]

Never been arrested I take it? I got arrested on a faulty warrant and then lost in a bus around the country for someone who's name, prints, etc didn't even match my own. This is in the United States of America, CCA jails, and TransCorps. This happened while I was at work. I was an eight hour drive from home, if I'd known that there was some sort of problem I could have driven home to deal with it.

It turns out that they used my name in part and had a SSN "near" mine. That was enough for a bench warrant.

It took me 23 days to get "home" and then another 5 days sitting in a county jail to get to court and be released with apologies.

I don't have much experience beyond that but I can say that 2 days == 30 days == 12 hours == 1 minute.

Nothing, at all, equates to being held against your will and powerless for something you did not do.

Re:I call bullshit.

[nobodyman]

I don't have much experience beyond that but I can say that 2 days == 30 days == 12 hours == 1 minute

I dunno man. I'll admit I've never been arrested, and I ain't gonna argue that your situation wasn't outrageous... because it sounds like it was. But if I had to spend time in jail for a bureaucratic screwup, I'd rather spend 1 minute than 23 days (let alone two years).

Again, my point wasn't to say that countries like the Germany & USA don't have problems. They do. But... it's not like you've been thrown in jail for a journal entry, right?

Re:I call bullshit.

[KGIII]

I'm not really sure I was clear enough. After an hour or two it is tough. After a week it is horrific. After two weeks it's not so bad. Somewhere in there is the tipping point. I was livid and did the true American thing and sued only to settle out of court. A part of me wished I'd kept the suit up but it was expensive at the time. (No, the ACLU wouldn't touch it, it wasn't "popular" enough was a direct quote.)

I don't really know? Somewhere in the two to five day range it just got... Well... "The Same®" I'd already bawled my eyes out, I did see some fights but no rape or anything, and the only fight I had been in was over quickly as I'm a cheap bastard who's also a Marine and studied jujitsu so I just let them swing and moved aside and pushed them from behind and asked if they still wanted to fight as I stood behind them. They said no and actually said sorry after just that little bit.

It wasn't anything like the movies. As I was in "private" transport I mostly rode around in handcuffs which hurt but I ate a lot of fast food and the bus had a DVD player.

Seriously, after the third or so day (there was some oddities in time that I can't explain) it was if I'd been there for years. It probably mattered that I *knew* I was going to get set free shortly. It probably helped that I knew I could prove an RMI and that I'd not even been in the state at that time, but each day was equal to what felt like a year until the time came when I came to grips with it and realized I was powerless at that time.

It is bad when you can feel an hour's worth of time passing while a second hand makes a single sweep around the dial. One minute, while not being guilty, is too long.

Re:I call bullshit.

[rugatero]

The UK categorically does NOT have the right to freedom of speech.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights, anyone?

And in the UK you do NOT have the right to remain silent, since remaining silent can be construed as an admission of guilt in UK law.

Which is why all criminals are told "you do not have to say anything"? I'll concede, silence can be deemed as incriminating, but is not enough to be considered "admission of guilt". Although, I seem to recall that there are different rules for fraud investigations.

Re:I call bullshit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then I suppose you can cite one instance in the USA, UK, Germany, or Australia where a citizen has been incarcerated for a minimum of two years without trial for a blog post that is critical of the government.

mitnick?

ok, not for a blog post, but much more than 2 years, without a real need.

anyway, you're right. we still have better laws then Malaysia ones.

Re:I call bullshit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Happens all the time? Interesting. Then I suppose you can cite one instance in the USA, UK, Germany, or Australia where a citizen has been incarcerated for a minimum of two years without trial for a blog post that is critical of the government. Go ahead and include some links under my post. Take your time. I'll wait.

Y

Sometimes in the United States people don't even have to blog. Guantanamo Bay... and then if you're uber wealthy, you can buy your way out of just about anything.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/07/asia/AS-China-US-Guantanamo.php

  Then you ask about Germany ??!! Uh... Germany -- WW II.

Re:I call bullshit.

[Bryansix]

In London the Police don't carry guns. Yes there was one incident where a man was shot because he was running through a tube station and the few plain clothes officers who did have guns (because of the terrorist attack a few weeks earlier) shot him.

I won't make excuses for Boston or Chicago. Those cities are like cesspools.

Re:I call bullshit.

[TheRaven64]

Not to mention the ECHR which is legally binding in the UK. This doesn't guarantee free speech explicitly, but does guarantee freedom of expression (and also the right to privacy). Unfortunately, the language of the ECHR is very vague and full of exceptions which amount to 'unless the government disagrees'.

Re:trial shmial

[owlnation]

Cite please? Just a single case of a US Citizen being incarcerated there will do.

There are other ways... being audited for example, no fly lists. There's plenty of ways to remove your freedom -- seemingly legally.

will lasers be involved?

[Eil]

In other news, several bloggers called for the U.S. to charge Malaysia, sending scores of /b/tards into uncontrollable lulz.

Looked up Sedition on Wikipedia

[Layth]

Some interesting notes.. particularly the USA's Smith Act, which made it a crime to advocate or teach the desirability of overthrowing the United States Government, or to be a member of any organization which does the same.

I'm not a lawyer.. but doesn't the preamble of our own declaration of independence state "it is [the people's] right, it is their duty, to throw off ... Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security"

Man, I don't think I could ever be a lawyer.
I love my compiler too much - logic and consistency is actually enforced.

Re:Looked up Sedition on Wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

The Declaration of Independence says a lot of things. None of them are counted as U.S. law, though.

Re:Looked up Sedition on Wikipedia

[Anonymous Coward]

OMFG.

When in the course of human history it becomes necessary for free men to dissolve the political bonds that tie them and cast off their government, it's called a revolutionary war.

Now our government - being a limited social contract formulated amongst free men in a state of nature to secure life, liberty, and property - will of course attempt to survive/win a revolutionary war. That is part of it's mandate, to survive and provide "domestic tranquility" and the "common defense".

Naturally then, sedition would be and SHOULD be illegal.

It's like teachers vs. highschool kids. The kids job is to cheat, the teachers job is to stop them. Both sides know the rules...it's nothing personal. Just business.

The trick with a revolution is: you'd better win. The winner decides who the treasonous are.

Re:Looked up Sedition on Wikipedia

[rohan972]

Some interesting notes.. particularly the USA's Smith Act, which made it a crime to advocate or teach the desirability of overthrowing the United States Government, or to be a member of any organization which does the same.

I'm not a lawyer.. but doesn't the preamble of our own declaration of independence state "it is [the people's] right, it is their duty, to throw off ... Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security"

And yet there are plenty of people who advocate or teach the desirability of the citizens being capable of overthrowing the US government. If you start to actually take steps towards armed revolution though, why would you not expect to be met with government force? If you are not already in jeopardy of your life from the government and you take up arms, you deserve to be shot. If you are already being hunted by the government, sedition charges hardly change your situation.

As a result, the only thing that Act accomplishes then, is to enable the government to act against people that are irrationally taking up arms against the government. That's a good thing.

Just to clarify my position: I fully support the RKBA, unlicensed and unregistered, in particular military small arms including .50 cal BMG and whatever else it takes to have a well armed militia. However I do not support the idea of government overthrow in any country that has viable elections. Sure there seems to be some tampering of elections, but not so much to do anything but tip the balance of a fairly close election as far as I can tell. If you have enough popular support to succeed in overthrowing the government, you have enough to win an election.

If you are advocating the armed overthrow of your government, you have already decided to abandon appeals to legality, your only recourse is your ability to win that fight. If your position is such that a sedition charge is meaningful to you, you won't.

Re:trial shmial

[KillerBob]

Would a Canadian do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr

I'm not saying he's specifically innocent. I don't know enough about his case to say one way or another. But we have an extradition treaty with the US, and have requested his repatriation through official channels. So how come he's still at Gitmo?

uhh... no

[circletimessquare]

there is actually a difference between your rights in the say, germany, and malaysia. germans are more free than americans in some freedoms of expression, but don't dare mention nazis, for example, in germany. but in germany and australia and the usa, overall, your rights and freedoms to express views which run contrary to those in power is respected. no really, it is. to conflate that with what goes on in malaysia, and egypt, and iran, and china, and other places, where you can, and will be put in brutal conditions, simply for expressing a political opinion. of course its not pure freedom of expression in the west, but there are orders of magnitude in difference

to talk about your rights to expression malaysia in the same breath as roughly comparable to your rights to expression in germany, is to be woefully ignorant of the reality of the situation. this doesn't mean you aren't free to say lots of critical things in malaysia and get away with it. this doesn't mean you can't get abused by the authorities for simply expressing yourself in germany. but, overall, there are orders of magnitude of difference in the kinds of things you can safely say, and the punishment you face for saying unpopular things

and to not realize that, and to not think the difference is important and large, is pure ignorance on your part

Re:uhh... no

[Anonymous Coward]

You have the freedom not to use one single capital letter in the correct place.
You have the right to mangle the English language as much as you see fit.
You have the right to confuse with your misuse of grammar.

Just don't expect anyone to understand what you're on about...

Re:trial shmial

[fishbowl]

Canada doesn't want him back badly enough to take a few navy ships down there and liberate him? That'd be my guess.

Should've posted as AC

[jbsooter]

If police officials there aren't above killing and destroying a body of some woman, what makes him think there aren't potentially serious repercussions for being outspoken in criticizing them. If the life of a news story over there is similar to what it is here, no one will even remember who he is in two weeks and for the next 2 years or so there is one less person making noise about a corrupt govt. An anonymous critic is generally better than a silenced one.

Malaysia.....

[IMightB]

Malaysia isn't such a bad place as far as countries that I've visited go... My wife is Malay, and she wouldn't move back. Every time I visit there, I get the feeling that it is slowly being dragged into the 21st century. There are still many laws that give native Malay's/Muslims preferential treatment over other ethnic groups (Indians/Chinese). My understanding is that this is fairly limited to things like low-interest government loans.... I dunno... I enjoy visiting there, I don't think that I'd want to live there though.

Re:Malaysia.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, there are preferential treatments for native majority ethnics over other ethnics groups such as allocated quota for public university entrance, cheaper homes and gov jobs. I believe it exist in many other countries like US and Europe where minority groups are given less social status. The only difference is that it is written in the laws in Malaysia while other "free" countries tries to be fair in the law but in practice they still exist discrimination because of skin colour. I believe human are instinctively stereotyping and may have prejudice against groups of other ethnic groups. But the problem gets worse when these ideas are enforced since young by many religion teachers that unbeliever of their religion are all evil. BTW, I am a Malaysian citizen.... :-)

Re:Malaysia.....

[IMightB]

I read your comment a few times, and I believe that the point your trying to make is that many countries have laws/quotas in place that give preferential treatment to various peoples. In Malaysia, the laws/quotas enforce the *majority*. Whereas in other countries they are geared towards the minorities. I agree with you that teaching these concepts as part of the religous upbringing only compounds the issues.

I also agree that stereotyping is a part of the human psyche, no one is immune. One of the things that I find interesting is that one of the stereotype native Malay's have of themselves is that native Malay's are somewhat "lazy".

That being said, I like Malaysia, my experiences there are overwhelmingly positive. The country is beautiful and there is lots of stuff to do and see there. Really the only thing I absolutely don't like about Malaysia is the weather. Then again I don't like the Southern United States for the same reason. Way too Hot and Humid for my tastes.

Re:trial shmial

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep him!

Relax, Don't Do It.

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill the malaysian prime minister!

(no, that's not a suggestion, it's a movie)

My point is that it's taught in schools

[Layth]

So from where I'm sitting it seems like every school in the nation that teaches the declaration of independence would be guilty under the smith act.

But like I said, I'm not a lawyer

Re:trial shmial

[n dot l]

But we have an extradition treaty with the US, and have requested his repatriation through official channels. So how come he's still at Gitmo?

Because Canada's wishes are irrelevant?

Re:trial shmial

[Bryansix]

He's lucky he survived having two 500 pound bombs dropped on the house he was in. He WAS involved with the militants who attacked and killed two Afghan fighters and then opened fire on the US troops outside.

Also I don't think you understand what extradition means. You ask for extradition when you want to try someone in your own country. Canada doesn't want to put him on trial. They want to repatriate him whatever that means.

I'm shocked!

[afabbro]

Free speech being restricted in a Muslim dictatorship? I'm shocked. Just completely shocked.

Re:I'm shocked!

[jttm80]

Dictatorship? Malaysia's 2008 election was as evenly split between 2 parties as the upcoming US elections.

Re:I'm shocked!

[IMightB]

umm it's not a dictatorship.... It is actually one of the more liberal Muslim countries. The government at least tries to appear somewhat secular... sometimes....

It gets even better

[the_B0fh]

Read his comment at his website: http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/12913/84/

Basically:

"You've insulted Islam, a jailable offense, even though we cannot prove that in the articles that we've printed out. But your style of writing is too sophisticated, and dumb people who are not at the same intellectual level as you could misinterpret what you say, and mistakenly think what you wrote as an insult to Islam. Hence, we are going to send you to jail for insulting Islam."

Re:trial shmial

[KGIII]

Canada... My how I do truly love Canada. I even go there often as it is quite literally a short drive from me.

However... Canada has a smaller navy than many landlocked countries.

Canada hasn't got the balls to stand up against America (which is where I live and I wish they would).

Re:trial shmial

[Maxmin]

I'd rather be in gitmo...

Oh really?

MALAYSIA

[InTheBucket]

I came to Malaysia in May 2002 and been here now nearly 7 peaceful years and have not touched American soil ever since.
I really try to stay away from all the political Mumbo-Jumbo in all countries not just mine and Malaysia's.
The problem with plitics is they get too high on power or power-sharing and it truthfully can destroy a peaceful country, especially if they let the power run deep into their heads.
Yes! Malaysia the past two years has been falling apart at the seams, and it really saddens me to see a once peaceful quiet country crunble into political turmoil.
Bah' its all garbage to me, I have no problems living here or had any problems while being here.
I can only hope to see Malaysia back to its former glory and try to set a good example to other countries who are struggling to get where Malaysia is today and run its country like it has been without war or terrorism getting in between.
When I moved to Malaysia I knew it was an Islamic country and that did not stop me from coming here, today some Muslims are trying to repair their tarnised name or religion due to terrorism. I have to say Malaysia does a good job keeping the terroists at bay. In a way I feel like I am in America still, I've seen no troubles here yet and hope never will.
We should never think negative about ones religion, because in religion we believe we should be in peace and harmony and being god loving people, so what, who cares, I am a Christian living in an Islamic country peacefully with no troubles in mind or heart. The Muslims don't bother me because I am a Christian or an American, They are friendly far as I can see it, no one has ruffled my feathers yet, and for sure I think it never will.
as for the guy getting arrested for posting in a blog about someone else, he was messing witha bees nest for sure, he knew better to confront such issues and post them, if you look for trouble you will get trouble, if you follow peace you will be in peace, so good for him being strong to write this article, but also good that he gets punnished for writing it in a negative way. I can write articles about ones race or religion and post it peacefully not sparking trouble in the public places. I feel we need to think wisely before posting such issues, and mostlikely this gentleman had no connections to the case so it would not be his problem to post negatively about, Yes! a woman died by someone, but how can you just write and say its someone when you are not sure... thats looking for trouble and trouble is not what I want in my life. ok I would love to ramble on more, but like I said before politics is not my cup of tea so peace to you all. Thank You

Malaysia's neighbour Singapore has the ISA as well

[Anonymous Coward]

The interesting thing is, it was the colonial Brits who enacted the Internal Security Act back in the 60s to combat Communism. Singapore was part of Malaya (Singapore and Malaysia) then and has also retained and used the ISA freely to detain alleged terrorists.

Freedom of speech is only an illusion

[d4n3sh]

I'm Malaysian and it's sad to say that our country is being run by a bunch of incompetent morons!! Freedom of speech is only an illusion. They say we have it but do we really do....?

like the guy said

[circletimessquare]

he's not saying the usa, or england, or germany, or anywhere is perfect. he's saying that the kind of abuse you went through can happen in malaysia, or egypt, or iran, or cuba, with impunity

what can you do? you can complain in the free press, you can pursue legal action against the authorities. you will also find plenty of people sympathetic to your plight, and you can associate with them freely. and none of you is afraid to speak out against your abuse. here you are on slashdot posting about it, right?

if you posted what you just posted in china, or iran, or egypt, you tell me what would happen

you will be very afraid to speak out against your abuse in other countries, where you are expected to swallow what happened to you without a word. and if you tell someone about it in the press, which is controlled by the government, or associate with those who also have complaints against the government, they will find you again if prove too troublesome, and give you sterner reminder of your need to stfu

there is a valid genuine large difference in the level of treatment you get in the west versus authoritarian countries

you need to understand and recongize that difference. if you do not, you cannot speak with intellectual honesty on the subject of government abuse

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

ya man !!! toward more liberal politic... we share the same home... our country...all our family, friends all are here. we dont care about races, as we are one, malaysian. and if need to, we die for our own country ! the changes is for the good for all... imagine a parents that have few kids and give extra attention to one of the kid only. i'm sure the rest of the kids will fed up ! try anology that to our politic. changes that we want is something that benefit all races... everyone.. by then only we can minimize people from migrate all over the world. we already lost many profesional local born people. i'm sure everyone want our country to continue to progress! or do we prefer to keep on hearing suddenly another family member, friend migrate ... cannot lah like that...