Microsoft Woos Developers Under the Silverlight

CWmike writes to tell us that with the impending release of their Silverlight 2.0 product, Microsoft is poised to enact the next phase of their plan, wooing developers and designers directly. Microsoft is funding a French open-source project designed to allow programmers to utilize the Eclipse framework to build Silverlight apps. "Microsoft is also releasing for free a set of programming templates called the Silverlight Control Pack under its Microsoft Permissive License, as well as the technical specification for Silverlight's Extensible Application Markup Language (XAML) vocabulary via Microsoft's Open Specification Promise. The latter, said Goldfarb, should make it easier for would-be Silverlight developers."

Comments

An Even Shorter Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The important parts of the summary:

Microsoft ... Developers ... ... developers ... ... developers.

Re:An Even Shorter Summary

[Captain Spam]

Ballmer: "Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale Silverlight?"

While I don't like Flash.

[LWATCDR]

Flash is multi platfrom and there is GASH as an option.
I also trust Adobe to be OS neutral a lot more than Microsoft.
99% of our your users already have Flash so why make them download and install Silverlight.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Anonymous Coward]

But your forgetting... Silverlight is.. awesomer than Flash!

Credit

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[LWATCDR]

Too bad applets got such a bad rap. They actually work very well now and are fast and powerful.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[thetoadwarrior]

I agree, Applets aren't that bad but it may take awhile to get people to forget all those horrible java applets people used to put on their ugly sites. One of my favourites at the moment is Wordle. http://wordle.net/

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[TheRealMindChild]

You do realize that is the same twisted logic that caused a lot of the internet to be IE only?

99% of our your users already have IE so why make this work with Mozilla

Same trap. Just a different beast.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Tom]

so why make them download and install Silverlight.

Because you can.

Seriously, a lot of things with MS are just power games. The MS keys on your keyboard are an example. By my best estimate, about 1% of users ever use them for anything not an accident.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[gaspyy]

Actually you can build flash apps without Flash.

Flex SDK is free and allows you to compile Flash, Flex and AIR apps.

FDT is not free but it's very very good (uses Flex). If you think it's not worth the money, you can write your own Eclipse plugin.

There are a number of other options, like FlasDevelop or MTASC, which although not Eclipse-based, are free alternatives.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[eggnet]

You can build Flash apps using the Flex SDK in any IDE you want.

Also, Flex Builder from Adobe is based on eclipse.

http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/features/flex_builder/

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[bheer]

> when coupled with mxmlc or mtasc you have everything you need to develop swfs in eclipse.

Dude, you probably have some keys stuck on your keyboard or something :-)

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[houghi]

http://wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/246288/slashdot

Did not work in Firefox, but worked in Konqueror

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[biovoid]

Flex Builder from Adobe is based on Eclipse! You can install it as a plugin into an existing Eclipse install, or install the stand-alone version. The open-source Flex SDK and compiler are both free if you don't want to shell out for Flex Builder.

There's FDT, another Eclipse Plugin for Flash/Flex development.

There are also completely open-source options for developing Flash/Flex content, in Eclipse, or the IDE of your choice. Windows, Mac or Linux.

I haven't touched the Flash IDE for the last four years.

Why not Flash or AJAX?

[jellomizer]

Keeping in mind I am speaking in a group where there are huge amount of open source zealots. However Flash has the advantage that it runs in Linux, Mac, Windows (And more if you are designing for older versions) while Silverlight is only Windows and Mac.
Next Flash is usually installed by default on Mac and Windows systems. (And a simple plug in for Linux... But if you guys are so smart you can probably add a plugin yourself anyways or the distribution has it already installed) Vs. Having to install it on Windows and Macs too.

If you don't need the extra graphics and AJAX method works good too. Plus you don't need to deal with the Closed Source Flash as well.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[Tweenk]

Except that a plugin is not available on Linux. MS touts Moonlight as a nearly complete port of Silverlight to Linux but in fact it's very far from being usable - even Gnash is light years ahead of Moonlight when compared with their closed source versions.

It just seems wrong...

[eagee]

Like a booby trap. I dunno, M$ is kind of like the US Government for me. I don't trust 'em.

So, does this mean

[afidel]

We can expect an open source Silverlight viewer? If so and MS has agreed not to enforce any patents on the technology then I see little reason for it to not overtake flash. Flash sucks, a lot. The sooner we have another cross platform app for doing online animations and movies the better.

Re:So, does this mean

[jellomizer]

How does flash suck? (Any more or less then any of its competition)

Re:So, does this mean

[LWATCDR]

It is called Moonlight. http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

But I am not all that comfortable with it. I think that Microsoft has done enough that I just can not trust them with any "standards" any longer.

Re:So, does this mean

[rumpsummoner]

Have you developed on it? It looks good but actionscript is a nightmare if you're used to any language other than javascript.

Re:So, does this mean

[Darkness404]

Honestly having used Flash on Windows it was by far the easiest programming I have ever done (other than messing around with Scratch but that doesn't count). Yes, if you aren't used to JavaScript it can be a pain, but honestly, if you are an artist Flash is going to make you decent programmer (unfortunately art isn't my strong point so my Flash ended up looking horrible)

Re:So, does this mean

[jellomizer]

Oh it is a holy war based on language syntax. I thought I was missing a glaring design quality issue about it.

Re:So, does this mean

[afidel]

My biggest problems with flash are CPU usage and stability. The fact that it's not available for anything but x86 is another, albeit secondary concern (mostly around mobile players).

Re:So, does this mean

[gaspyy]

Actionscript is similar to javascript, although in version 3, with strong typing, it starting to feel more like Java.

Some people - me included - like its flexibility, while others loathe the same thing.

The only thing I don't like about it is the new syntax for Vector data type (Flash 10)
C#, Java: int list[] = new int[100];
AS3: var list:Vector. = new Vector.(100);

Re:So, does this mean

[Tweenk]

Unfortunately Moonlight is nowhere near usable, at least for the average user. Additionally it will contain closed blobs of MS code because of the Novell-MS deal: read up

Re:So, does this mean

[Blakey Rat]

Flash runs just fine on PPC Macs. I have a friend with a Windows Mobile phone that has no problem viewing Hulu Flash movies. (No clue what CPUs in it, but I doubt it's x86.) I dunno where you got the idea that it's x86-only.

Re:So, does this mean

[JPeMu]

I work as Lead Software Dev for an online gaming company, and use ActionScript daily for my job (as well as other languages of course). We have found that we *cannot* use AS3 which is a real pity as it's much quicker and improved over AS2 (strict typing etc) due to 2 major bugs:

First of all, there's an issue when dynamically loading images. No matter _how hard_ you try to dispose of allocated memory (Manual delete, NULL pointer, force GC etc etc) it does not free the previously allocated memory. Whopping memory leak. Furthermore, it's no longer possible to reference objects on the timeline until the frame _after_ they first get instantiated. Or the next one. Maybe. Or even the next one - all depends what mood the player is in. Sure, there's events you can hook in to to make sure you wait until the object's properly instantiated, but that kinda defeats the object of having a _time_line. So for us, AS3 is a bust until they can fix these issues.

Back OT, as for Silverlight - I've yet to see this running anything meaningful at more than a crawl. Even looking at some of the most basic of UI widget sets implemented in Silverlight is a painfully slow experience, so that's not going to cut it for me either. Anybody have any links to either "meaningful" Silverlight content (i.e. more than just "hello world"), or a UI widget set implemented in Silverlight that's usable real-time I'd be interested to check them out...

DT

Re:So, does this mean

[miguel]

We are getting ready for our first beta of Moonlight 1.0, which will map to Silverlight 1.0, you have a few options to get it running:

(a) Wait until our official Beta launch, and it will contain an easy-to-install plugin. Click install, restart browser, you are done.

(b) You can use it today if you build from our source code, it is published here: http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

(c) Repositories like Packman have RPMs that you can install for various distributions that you can install today.

We will be using Microsoft's Media Pack for Linux, which is a licensed version of the media codecs, binary drivers provided by Microsoft. This has the advantage that the media companies that own the patents on codecs have been paid for (MPEG-LA consortium and others).

For those of you that live in a country where software/machine patents are not enforced (media patents are enforced in Europe, contrary to popular lore) or those that just want to stick it to the man, you can build Moonlight with the open source FFMPEG media codecs.

Support for Silverlight 2.0 will ship in preview form in December.

Sluts

[orsocio]

"...under its Microsoft Permissive License..."

love the way Microsoft kinda imply that open source is so slutty...

Re:Sluts

[Ethanol-fueled]

I didn't mean to imply that a license shouldn't be named after a project or foundation, but the Apache and Mozilla foundations were made from open source so their licenses have more cred than those Microsoft, which has been historically proprietary and anti open-source.

Ugh, I tire of this...

[TheNecromancer]

I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?? Silverlight is a tool that Microsoft is designing so that developers can take better advantage of the rich Internet experience. It steams me that the author of that article seems bent on pointing out that MS has this "ultimate plan" to kill Adobe.

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing? I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless. I tend to use the best tools available for the technologies that I code for, and Microsoft has some good ones! Sure, they are proprietary, but it could be any large corporation in MS's place, and people would rail on them for being the "big, bad corporation"! Open source has its' place in the industry, as does proprietary software!

Let's get past the hate, and just stick to what we (developers) do best: write awesome code!! I get stoked when I hear of new technologies coming out (from MS or Sun, or whomever), since that means the online experience users want is getting better, and WE are the ones who give it to the masses!!

W00t to new technologies!!

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Microlith]

Silverlight is a tool that Microsoft is designing so that developers can take better advantage of the rich Internet experience.

Sounds like marketing drivel to me.

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing?

While financials are right in stating that past performance does not guarantee future performance, microsoft does not get the benefit of the doubt. They have (and continue to, albeit subtly) acted maliciously towards their competitors for a long time, and will spread FUD whenever they can to drive users to the "platform of choice*", namely Windows and Windows-derivatives.

Not to say that Microsoft hasn't come up with some good things. The problem is that adopting these good things puts you right where Microsoft wants you: following them lockstep, but never quite able to catch up.

That said, your post reeks of cheerleader. Wake me up when Mono catches up to .NET 3.0 (I think they just got 1.0 WinForms support and are nearing 2.0 compatibility?)

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Dan667]

I think that you are glossing over three decades of Microsoft stifling innovation, locking out others, and bullying. It is a very healthy thing to scrutinize Microsoft's activity and make sure others know to be wary of them. If they are going to behave differently they are not going to gain trust over night. But there is nothing so far that show that Microsoft is behaving any less badly than they have before.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[LWATCDR]

Well it has more to do with standards. I don't want to have anything I do on the internet tied to one OS, browser, or even software supplier.
Flash is supported on more OS's and more browsers than Silverlight.
Also I just can not trust microsoft to keep supporting anything but Windows.
IE, Mediaplayer, and VBA for Office all show that Microsoft will not support anything but Windows.
That isn't really politics it is just logic. The internet should be OS and Browser neutral.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[corsec67]

How is Silverlight going to make my "Internet Experience" better in FireFox on an Ubuntu AMD64 computer?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[nurb432]

I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

Well of course, but since when has any Microsoft tool kit provided 'better/robust' code? ( its been decades )

Their current crop of tool kits ( and language of the week ) are the pinnacle of bloat and internal inefficiency.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[ConceptJunkie]

Saying Microsoft is trying to kill Adobe is "pro-" or "anti-" anything. It's an observation. It's what Microsoft always tries to do.

I think you're being just a little too sensitive here when talking about a company for which nothing is too low when it comes to smothering the competition.

Aside from that, if Silverlight is good, people will use it. Frankly, all I could ever get it to do is ask to be installed, even when it supposedly was. I guess it doesn't support Firefox. Flash is closed-source, a performance hog, and Adobe can't seem to port it to 64-bits even though they've been allegedly "trying" for years. If that doesn't tell you volumes about the quality of the code, then nothing will.

Silverlight is from Microsoft, therefore it will _not_ come without some huge club beating you in the face to lock you into Microsoft regardless of whether it's good or bad. This is an important consideration. Just when software is more cross-platform friendly than ever, Microsoft comes along and tries to set the clock back 10 years. No Linux support? Is this 1998 again?

These are important considerations above and beyond whether Silverlight is easy to work with and performs well. All Microsoft technology comes with a big ball-and-chain attached, backed by an obscenely powerful company who is not afraid to extort, intimidate and lie to maintain their advantage. For many people, that's not a problem and may even be seen as an advantage. For other people, it could be a deal-breaker.

If Microsoft wants to be treated based solely on the merits of their technology, then perhaps it's time, after 30 years, that they attempt to compete based solely on the merits of their technology.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Foofoobar]

Agreed. The web is meant to be cross platform and Microsoft keeps trying to tie the web to ther OS or their BROWSER or their TOOLS (which then tie back to their BROWSER which ties back to their OS). This is why people are anti Microsoft because Microsoft is anti-open and 'anti-cross platform'. Everytime they make the motion to be cross platform, they ruin it by tying it in to something else or exploiting it or making it obsolete. They can't just leave something open and cross platform. This is why people are suspicious that the have never accepted the GPL or any other truly open license.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[aztracker1]

Moonlight is free and open-source, and isn't going anywhere. MS has offered technical reviews and support to moonlight developers, and you'll likely see moonlight in your native x64 firefox before Flash.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[corsec67]

What happens when Silverlight is made incompatible with Moonlight? Moonlight seems to be in the "Embrace" phase, what about the extend and extinguish phases?

If you say to make stuff work for Moonlight, what happens when executables made for Moonlight don't work in Sliverlight?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Tweenk]

Mono isn't a 1:1 implementation of .Net ... they are compatible with everything in 2.0 that matters.

And Wine is compatible with everything that matters in the Win32 API. That doesn't cause all programs that matter to run correctly.

did they finally get datagrid compat going

[StupidPeopleTrick]

silverlight 1.0 had not XAML controls for the simple datagrid control. OMG what a stuff up! You had to go to xceed to get one and pay for it. That little detail made me so mad that I have sworn off silverlight. The message was clear, if your a small development shop, you cannot afford silverlight. Oh by the way, where is the automated testing framework for writting automated UI tests against it? anyone?... anyone?... - StupidPeopleTrick

Really nice Silverlight sample site

[RingDev]

http://gallery1.demconvention.com/

Yup, the Democratic National Convention site is Silverlight. The bandwidth isn't quite as impressive as it was while the event was going on. But flip through the site and check out the functionality.

As someone who has developed a bit with the beta Silverlight tools, I have to say it is an amazing platform. And I'm quite excited about using it in the future.

-Rick

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[argent]

But flip through the site and check out the functionality.

We're sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isn't compatible with your operating system and/or browser.

I'm sorry, but you're making me more interested in what McCain's got to say.

More links on the topic

[Dragonshed]

SL Eclipse Tools project
    http://www.eclipse4sl.org/

MS Press release (interestly enough, it plans linux as a supported platform)
    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/oct08/10-13Silverlight2PR.mspx

Silverlight 2 release is imminent.

Why not use a fully open-source toolkit?

[scorp1us]

Given that Adobe AIR is based on WebKit, and the OpenSource world has Webkit (Qt has Webkit integrated, but Qt is not required for my suggestion), why don't we just make a fully AIR/Silverlight clone using WebKit and Javascript?

The proper way to woo.

[bionicpill]

Everyone knows real developers work on beer, not on Eclipse.

Re:The proper way to woo.

[CallsignBaron]

Everyone knows real developers work on beer, not on Eclipse.

No, real developers live on coffee and they fear the daylight. They may actually get more done during an Eclipse.

Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[Weaselmancer]

How the hell did you get all that in there fast enough to be the top page post? I just picture someone foaming at the mouth and typing so fast hummingbirds are frightened.

I have my problems with Microsoft too, but damn. Go outside. Walk a park. Read a book. You don't need an ulcer at your age.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[martinw89]

Actually, I imagine this as some late 30s, early 40s year old guy living in his mom's basement with trollish rants ready to copy and paste. He also has a barbecue sauce stain on his shirt.

Actually, that's how I see all trolls.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[I'm not really here]

Automated script to find the word Microsoft in a posted story, and auto post as anonymous coward with a pre-"recorded" tirade against Microsoft. Note how it didn't specifically address the Silverlight platform. This was a canned response, and one put in by someone with way to much time on their hands to code something to do this for them (or too much time to sit around while Firefox refreshes the page every minute until they see a Microsoft story and pounce).

Microsoft is not a single entity... Microsoft is made up of thousands of employees, and I'm sure there are some who work with Silverlight that really really want this to be the next Flash.

I personally would be very upset if Silverlight became a common tool, due to the frustrations with implementing it outside of IE.

I got tired of it too...

[argent]

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?

I used to be platform-agnostic and hardware-agnostic, but after a few rounds of companies pulling platforms out from under me... "better" code that depends on a single vendor is something I have to look long and hard into before I'm going to jump on board. I don't care whether it's called NextStep or .NET, SmallTalk* or BeOS, if it's under the effective control of a single company it's pre-doomed. Over the past 30 years I've been burned too many times to trust ANY proprietary platform.

take better advantage of the rich Internet experience

Another buzz-phrase that was just as scary when it was the rich Desktop experience. That turned into a Microsoft-controlled virus hive. Not going there again.

I tend to use the best tools available

Me too, so long as nobody can pull those tools out from under me because they went out of business or changed their goals. I don't care so much whether it's open source or not, so long as there's multiple sources out there.

Re:Oh, Please!

[aztracker1]

I would disagree strongly that MS hasn't done any bullying... they've done a lot of it regarding OEMs, and in particular in the Win16 days regarding other versions of DOS. More recently, they did a lot to undercut Netscape Server out of the loop (not that it didn't deserve it). I absolutely hate the levels of registration/validation in Windows now, and even in Office.

MS adds a lot of value to what they offer, but that doesn't mean they get a free pass regarding transgressions of the past. However, on its' own merit, I find the .Net stack (especially since 2005) to be really nice, and that includes the upcoming release of Silverlight.

Microsoft highlights Silverlight on Linux

[ThaReetLad]

Why don't you go to the microsoft silverlight site? OK, the presentation is a pretty awful case of marketeering, but what's interesting is that it makes a point of being cross platform and supporting a range of browsers, on windows, mac and linux. The presentation highlights mobile internet on phone, which makes me suspect that a silverlight implementation for mobile devices is just around the corner.

Re:Microsoft highlights Silverlight on Linux

[ConceptJunkie]

You assume I care. The only reason I tried to install Silverlight was because Microsoft suggested it in order to take advantage of their new download features. I tried it and it failed miserably. I don't even run Windows any more. I'll care if some online app I want to use requires it, _and_ I can get it running with a minimum of trouble. I'm through fighting and clawing and groveling to get Microsoft crap to work. They get one chance, and if it fails as utterly as Silverlight did for me, then I quit. Sorry, this is 2008, not 1983. Software made by a company with billions of dollars and tens of thousands of employees should occasionally work and if, after all the hundreds if not thousands of dollars Microsoft has extorted from me over the past 20 years being a customer of theirs I have to put up with hassle on top of it, then I have no patience.

Re:Yes this is fantastic new tech.....

[Tweenk]

I installed Moonlight but the same message keeps appearing on the Democratic Convention site, and the Hard Rock Memorabilia site crashes FF. So much for Moonlight. It's a Microsoft perpetrated scam to fool people into thinking that Silverlight is portable to OSes not targeted by Microsoft.

Goldfarb

[naasking]

The latter, said Goldfarb, should make it easier for would-be Silverlight developers."

I'm glad to see Microsoft's goblin integration program is still going strong.

Re:Yes this is fantastic new tech.....

[RingDev]

So web developers should only aim to provide text based content because some people refuse to keep up to date?

Silverlight is currently in beta, soon to be launched. I would imagine that MS will do their damnest to get as much penetration as they can. And that means improving performance on FF (I haven't had it crash yet, but it is much laggier) and working with the folks at Moonlight to get things flowing there.

But hey, some people complained about this whole 'Netscape Navigator' thing back in the day. It's just some new fangled fad that won't amount to anything...

For now, Silverlight is competition for Flash. If the competition between the two of them gets us either a flash level of portability in Silverlight, or an ease of development like Silverlight has in Flash, it will be good for us the developers and consumers.

-Rick

Tag it from now on "WorksForNow"

[symbolset]

From now until the end of time Microsoft's cross platform adventures should be tagged "Works For Now". As their DRM brand "Plays For Sure" should have been called "Plays For Now", as their "Internet Explorer" languished free of development until a challenger arose, the only thing certain about Microsoft product development is that there will come a day when utility is deprecated to further Microsoft's perceived economic interests. As soon as they perceive that either they have market ownership or that market ownership cannot be achieved they abandon further development. This is not progress.

Re:Moonlight is GPL - come help out!

[rdebath]

And I don't want it, so I won't.

Likewise Microsoft aren't helping so they don't want it either; in fact they are actively hindering with their usual technique of making Silverlight a moving target.

must...resist!

[cyclomedia]

developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
*throws chair*
*throws chair*

developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
G.P.L.
G.P.L.?

G...P...L...!!??
Not the...
G...P...L...!!!!

developers...

[well the karma was nice while it lasted]