Microsoft Woos Developers Under the Silverlight

CWmike writes to tell us that with the impending release of their Silverlight 2.0 product, Microsoft is poised to enact the next phase of their plan, wooing developers and designers directly. Microsoft is funding a French open-source project designed to allow programmers to utilize the Eclipse framework to build Silverlight apps. "Microsoft is also releasing for free a set of programming templates called the Silverlight Control Pack under its Microsoft Permissive License, as well as the technical specification for Silverlight's Extensible Application Markup Language (XAML) vocabulary via Microsoft's Open Specification Promise. The latter, said Goldfarb, should make it easier for would-be Silverlight developers."

Comments

An Even Shorter Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The important parts of the summary:

Microsoft ... Developers ... ... developers ... ... developers.

Re:An Even Shorter Summary

[Xaemyl]

Microsoft ... Developers ... ... developers ... ... developers. *throws chairs*

There. Fixed that for you.

Re:An Even Shorter Summary

[Captain Spam]

Ballmer: "Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale Silverlight?"

Re:An Even Shorter Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never danced with Ballmer. I have only been screwed by Microsoft (it hurt).

So no, I have not danced with the devil in the pale Silverlight.

Re:An Even Shorter Summary

[CheeseTroll]

Oh lord, is he writing song lyrics now, too?

Re:An Even Shorter Summary

[jez9999]

I.... LOVVVE.... THIIIIS.... COMPANYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

(Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING. well duh.)
(Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING. well duh.)

Re:An Even Shorter Summary

[triso]

I have never danced with Ballmer. I have only been screwed by Microsoft (it hurt). [...]

That's what you get for skipping foreplay.

While I don't like Flash.

[LWATCDR]

Flash is multi platfrom and there is GASH as an option.
I also trust Adobe to be OS neutral a lot more than Microsoft.
99% of our your users already have Flash so why make them download and install Silverlight.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Anonymous Coward]

But your forgetting... Silverlight is.. awesomer than Flash!

Credit

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[LWATCDR]

Too bad applets got such a bad rap. They actually work very well now and are fast and powerful.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[lenkyl]

http://fdt.powerflasher.com/

though not cheap, the fdt plugin allows flash development in eclipse. when coupled with mxmlc or mtasc you have everything you need to develop swfs in eclipse.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[thetoadwarrior]

I agree, Applets aren't that bad but it may take awhile to get people to forget all those horrible java applets people used to put on their ugly sites. One of my favourites at the moment is Wordle. http://wordle.net/

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[TheRealMindChild]

You do realize that is the same twisted logic that caused a lot of the internet to be IE only?

99% of our your users already have IE so why make this work with Mozilla

Same trap. Just a different beast.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Tom]

so why make them download and install Silverlight.

Because you can.

Seriously, a lot of things with MS are just power games. The MS keys on your keyboard are an example. By my best estimate, about 1% of users ever use them for anything not an accident.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[aztracker1]

Grr.. gnash...

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[gaspyy]

Actually you can build flash apps without Flash.

Flex SDK is free and allows you to compile Flash, Flex and AIR apps.

FDT is not free but it's very very good (uses Flex). If you think it's not worth the money, you can write your own Eclipse plugin.

There are a number of other options, like FlasDevelop or MTASC, which although not Eclipse-based, are free alternatives.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[eggnet]

You can build Flash apps using the Flex SDK in any IDE you want.

Also, Flex Builder from Adobe is based on eclipse.

http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/features/flex_builder/

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[bheer]

> when coupled with mxmlc or mtasc you have everything you need to develop swfs in eclipse.

Dude, you probably have some keys stuck on your keyboard or something :-)

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[houghi]

http://wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/246288/slashdot

Did not work in Firefox, but worked in Konqueror

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

last I looked, it was down to 80%. Anyway, that sort attitude leads to your site being IE6 only, as you just throw any old thing in without any thought to portability.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[PitaBred]

That's a strawman. Flash is available to everyone pretty much equally, whereas IE is not. It's not a "trap", it's just good sense. Silverlight has yet to show it's face on Linux or Mac. That means that Flash is still a much better choice if you're going to attempt to reach a broad audience.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[StatusWoe]

I like Eclipse, and can't build Flash apps using it.

Well, Flexbuilder (Adobe's big RIA flash toolset) is an Eclipse plugin. It's not free, but the sdk is, and you can get AS3 syntax highlighters.

And if you're a big Java guy, there is even a very functional Maven mojo for flex.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[abdulla]

There is Moonlight. In the end I'd rather none of these plugins, but if I have to choose, my preference is Flash. Adobe have shown support for multiple platforms, while Microsoft is pretty much delegating that to Mono, which is perpetually playing catch-up.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[ignavus]

I also trust Adobe not to be Microsoft far more than I trust Microsoft not to be Microsoft.

We need competition - not an abusive monopolist with *even more* market power.

I don't care how good Silverlight is, Microsoft must be split up before it is even safe to think about such technology in their hands.

Forget the technology folks, this is ALL about market power.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[larry bagina]

Not that any of the developers would know it, but gash is a slang term for pussy.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[biovoid]

Flex Builder from Adobe is based on Eclipse! You can install it as a plugin into an existing Eclipse install, or install the stand-alone version. The open-source Flex SDK and compiler are both free if you don't want to shell out for Flex Builder.

There's FDT, another Eclipse Plugin for Flash/Flex development.

There are also completely open-source options for developing Flash/Flex content, in Eclipse, or the IDE of your choice. Windows, Mac or Linux.

I haven't touched the Flash IDE for the last four years.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[JCSoRocks]

Windows key commands are great -

• Win-E for opening up a file explorer.
• Win-M for minimizing everything.
• Win-Shift-M to restore everything.
• Win-Tab / Win-shit-tab lets you go through the items on your taskbar like you would with alt-tab.

The others that I use like Win-R, etc have already been listed. I'm not saying I think it's the best invention ever, those obviously could have been implemented other ways, just that it's not useless.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[dugjohnson]

<quote>I like Eclipse, and can't build Flash apps using it.</quote>

Why not?  Flex Builder is based on Eclipse and if you already HAVE Eclipse, you can get the plug-in version.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[markdavis]

Moonlight is hardly a solution. It is complex, incompatible, slow, and will lag waaaaaay behind any current development. People who suggest that as a "solution" to Silverlight for non-MS platforms need to be slapped around a bit.

As far as most non-MS users are concerned, Silverlight is evil and definitely "itsatrap". Flash is evil too, but on an evilness scale of 1-10 in the "real world", Flash is probably a 5, where Silverlight is a 10.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[thetoadwarrior]

Odd, I only use FireFox but maybe I've been lucky.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[lord_sarpedon]

Why did they have to break applet security?

We know that the java security features can handle this - but the browser plugin is simple retarded. You can't really request just the permissions you want, and the user cant fine-tune this if they feel like it. (And it's really, really slow)

Go ahead, try running an applet which pops a security warning. You can press ok, which gives it _full permissions_, or you can press _cancel_, in which it _loads anyway, sandboxed_. How does this make any sense? I can't believe we haven't seen more attacks using applets these days...

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[LWATCDR]

You really should look back a few posts.
I was saying that one of the things about Silverlight I don't like is everybody needs to download and install it while most people have Flash.
I think you should make websites work for as many people as possible. Coding just for IE or Firefox is counter productive to that goal. Same as using Silverlight.
Actually I code for Firefox then patch for IE usually.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

That's not a valid objection, as you have to download flash too, or have you not noticed everyone going to flash 9 for no particular reason?

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[digitalgiblet]

PLEASE tell my you meant Win-shiFt-tab...

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[windsurfer619]

You know, I went looking for the plugin for linux, but I couldn't find it. Could you link to the download?

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

I thought SL1.0 was about getting the name out - you can say 'we were here in 2007' or some such. Anyway, I'm in the position of not liking either option - I use linux and FF and I really hate having to deal with flash or broken webapps that only work with IE (I work at a MS shop now, so that should be expected...) - I just want decent html apps that work with most stuff.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[shermo]

And? You're the 1%

I don't use them and, since I'm the most computer literate, I'd be suprised if anyone in my (admitedly smallish) company uses them.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[mcrbids]

Seriously, a lot of things with MS are just power games. The MS keys on your keyboard are an example. By my best estimate, about 1% of users ever use them for anything not an accident.

Actually, I find them quite useful. When I plug my Microsoft keyboard into my Mac Mini, the MS keys work the same as the "Apple" key. For this, they are quite useful. Otherwise, they're just a sorry way to bring up the start menu, which any moron would use the mouse for since navigating the start menu by keyboard is so horrendous...

Thanks Microsoft!

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[KGIII]

I use it and well, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense but...

This is my fourth most popular page on this site:

http://kgiii.info/windows/all/general/winkey.html

Interestingly this is in the top ten:

http://kgiii.info/windows/XP/general/xp_run_commands.html

The site is not that popular, doing only a couple GBs of bandwidth per month so it isn't as if this is much to go on really.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[ozphx]

One of the benefits of Silverlight is that the view/controller is seperated enough that you can trust the designer to have SVN access and not bugger anything up :P

They can fiddle around with Expression (or whatever its called) - making the UI look nice, and I can concentrate on exposing properties for databinding.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[sw155kn1f3]

Try to press "Start" button and navigate to start menu at the same time with your mouse. Makes everything way faster. Kind of like instant-key toolbar. I guess it's intended to be this way.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[supernova_hq]

I for one believe flash to be the worst thing to EVER happen to the internet. ANYTHING that can be done with flash can be done using embed tags, css and javascript. The fact that I have to load a flash plugin just to watch a freaking video when there is a perfectly good, yet unused, embed tag is mind boggling!

Over the years I have learned to live with flash videos, but if I come across a website where all I see is a giant white box with a small play button (I have flashblock), i hit the close button.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Saint Gerbil]

Bizzare how you seem to take flashes history in the same way. Flash 1 had almost no impact, Flash 2 not a lot, Flash 3 was when it started to pick and and it was on flash 4 before it became even close to accepted. Your Silverlight knowledge seems ify too. There is Silverlight 1.0, 1.1 and now 2.0 so really its stage 3 already.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[davedx]

One reason, actually: MultiScaleImage.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[electrictroy]

I prefer whatever CW television uses. It has the ability to dynamically alter the bitrate from wideband to 128 kbit/s. When I watching the Olympics via Silverlight, it lacked that capability and often paused playback (extremely frustrating).

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[LWATCDR]

Except that most people already have downloaded flash. Plus Flash is available for Windows, Mac, Linux, and even the Wii.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[mrjohnson]

Yes, my favorite is from here:

http://anirudhs.chaosnet.org/blog/2008.03.26.html

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[ravenlock]

Silverlight 2 is Silverlight 1.1, re-branded.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[danwesnor]

Yeah, it only to 2 years to get a version of Shockwave that didn't require Intel Mac users to run their browser in the (much slower) PowerPPC mode.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[daninbusiness]

Silverlight does not work on PowerPC based macs. Such computers were sold until January 2006; and in my experience PowerPC macs are still effective for most tasks; perhaps with the exceptions of gaming and running Silverlight.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Fred_A]

The MS keys on your keyboard are an example. By my best estimate, about 1% of users ever use them for anything not an accident.

I find them useful. One of them is "Super" and the other is set to be a "Compose key". It would probably be better if they were labelled properly, but I suppose that's too much to expect (or I should get one of those OLED keyboards that costs more than my computer).
I don't really know what they're for in Windows though.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[smooth wombat]

Flash is evil.

Hope this helps.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[triso]

Moonlight is hardly a solution. It is complex, incompatible, slow, and will lag waaaaaay behind any current development.[,,,]

Knowing Microsoft, Silverlight 2.0 will be the same. But how can...?

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[Golthur]

Yep, you can go as old-skool as you like.

I build Flash apps regularly using ant from the command line and VIM for editing.

Re:While I don't like Flash.

[emilng]

The Eclipse plugin for Linux is still in alpha and can be found here:http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flexbuilder_linux.html

The SDK will work in Linux without Eclipse though.

Why not Flash or AJAX?

[jellomizer]

Keeping in mind I am speaking in a group where there are huge amount of open source zealots. However Flash has the advantage that it runs in Linux, Mac, Windows (And more if you are designing for older versions) while Silverlight is only Windows and Mac.
Next Flash is usually installed by default on Mac and Windows systems. (And a simple plug in for Linux... But if you guys are so smart you can probably add a plugin yourself anyways or the distribution has it already installed) Vs. Having to install it on Windows and Macs too.

If you don't need the extra graphics and AJAX method works good too. Plus you don't need to deal with the Closed Source Flash as well.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[scorp1us]

see my comment here

Basically, I ask the same thing, except I throw WebKit out there (Its what Adobe AIR is based on). Flash and Silverlight are proprietary licensed products. WebKit is not.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[CodeBuster]

I seem to remember that the NBC olympics site (which used Silverlight) had plugin installation that was fairly easy with Firefox (which doesn't support ActiveX so it was obviously not IE only) and didn't require many manual user actions such as downloading and running an installer separately. Now granted, that was on Windows XP, but if it can be made to work with Firefox on Windows with a plugin then wouldn't that same Firefox plugin be available on Linux?

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[Tweenk]

Except that a plugin is not available on Linux. MS touts Moonlight as a nearly complete port of Silverlight to Linux but in fact it's very far from being usable - even Gnash is light years ahead of Moonlight when compared with their closed source versions.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[JCSoRocks]

Ugh, yeah, no 64bit flash = horribly lame. Particularly when you come across websites whose navigation is composed entirely of flash... real fun.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[jellomizer]

You can get the Linux version of Adobe Flash. If you are going to limit yourself to GNU only, you need to take bad with the good.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[qopax]

I don't know about Macs, but I've always had to install Flash on all of my Windows systems, and systems I've built for other people, so you might actually want to switch that around, since I bet SilverLight will come pre-installed in all future versions of Windows (already in Windows Update), unlike Flash.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[Allador]

As a minor correction, only the HTML rendering component of AIR is built on WebKit.

Thats a minor (albeit useful) piece of AIR.

Re:Why not Flash or AJAX?

[WhiteFluffyChest]

I see Silverlight as just an attack on Linux. There is no way Microsoft will officially support it for Linux, just like Office.

Microsoft will continuously pour millions and millions into Silverlight development over the next few years and only offer it to Windows and Mac. Linux is not invited to the party. They have to struggle with unofficial moonlight and mono builds, that more than likely won't be able to keep up.

The bigger Silverlight becomes on the web, the weaker Linux becomes. That's what Microsoft are investing in. A way to make Linux a weaker platform.

It just seems wrong...

[eagee]

Like a booby trap. I dunno, M$ is kind of like the US Government for me. I don't trust 'em.

Re:It just seems wrong...

[BenSchuarmer]

Go in to the Silverlight, there is peace and serenity in the Silverlight

So, does this mean

[afidel]

We can expect an open source Silverlight viewer? If so and MS has agreed not to enforce any patents on the technology then I see little reason for it to not overtake flash. Flash sucks, a lot. The sooner we have another cross platform app for doing online animations and movies the better.

Re:So, does this mean

[jellomizer]

How does flash suck? (Any more or less then any of its competition)

Re:So, does this mean

[LWATCDR]

It is called Moonlight. http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

But I am not all that comfortable with it. I think that Microsoft has done enough that I just can not trust them with any "standards" any longer.

Re:So, does this mean

[rumpsummoner]

Have you developed on it? It looks good but actionscript is a nightmare if you're used to any language other than javascript.

Re:So, does this mean

[Darkness404]

Flash sucks, a lot

No more than Java, AJAX or Silverlight does. Most of the problems with Flash are the exact same problems that would happen even with Super Open Ultra Stable Plugin's stable version. Also, Flash is supported by a lot of things, the Wii can view Flash files, and so can the largest three OSes (Mac, Linux and Windows), and so can a bunch of other things not to mention that GNASH is in development and is OSS.

Re:So, does this mean

[Anonymous Coward]

ActionScript is really not that bad.

I am a full time as3 dev moving from C++ and Java. I still do quite a bit of work in Java as well.

There are only a few real problems with the language: a lack of overloading constructors and the lack of generics (which will be changed in an upcoming version).

If you're in ActionScript 3, it feels nothing like JavaScript. We've got strong typing!

Re:So, does this mean

[Darkness404]

Honestly having used Flash on Windows it was by far the easiest programming I have ever done (other than messing around with Scratch but that doesn't count). Yes, if you aren't used to JavaScript it can be a pain, but honestly, if you are an artist Flash is going to make you decent programmer (unfortunately art isn't my strong point so my Flash ended up looking horrible)

Re:So, does this mean

[jellomizer]

Oh it is a holy war based on language syntax. I thought I was missing a glaring design quality issue about it.

Re:So, does this mean

[afidel]

My biggest problems with flash are CPU usage and stability. The fact that it's not available for anything but x86 is another, albeit secondary concern (mostly around mobile players).

Re:So, does this mean

[Darkness404]

Yes, its true that Flash does seem to use up an absurd amount of CPU, but upgrading (or downgrading) your Flash player usually remedies the problem. And the x86 requirement is something that a lot of proprietary software has, though if GNASH ever becomes usable it won't be a concern.

Re:So, does this mean

[aztracker1]

Yes, via Novel's Moonlight project. And for the second part.. that's there too. I am not a fan of flash, developing stuff with it is always a PITA mainly the differences in ActionScript vs JavaScript... The moderately inconsistant APIs, and the fact that there really isn't a nice developer model. Flex approaches a nice model of development, but Silverlight leapfrogs it.

Re:So, does this mean

[pipboy9999]

I agree that there is nothing inherently evil about silverlight, its really nothing but a competitor to flash. The only thing I would be concerned about is that MS pressures developers into using silverlight and then cripples its use on non MS platforms once it gains decent market share.

Re:So, does this mean

[gaspyy]

Actionscript is similar to javascript, although in version 3, with strong typing, it starting to feel more like Java.

Some people - me included - like its flexibility, while others loathe the same thing.

The only thing I don't like about it is the new syntax for Vector data type (Flash 10)
C#, Java: int list[] = new int[100];
AS3: var list:Vector. = new Vector.(100);

Re:So, does this mean

[Tweenk]

Unfortunately Moonlight is nowhere near usable, at least for the average user. Additionally it will contain closed blobs of MS code because of the Novell-MS deal: read up

Re:So, does this mean

[Almahtar]

It really depends on which version of Actionscript you're using. Actionscript 3 was a marked deviation from AS1 and AS2. It highly resembles Java - Object Oriented, single inheritance, supports (multiple) interfaces, has the ability to be strongly typed if you choose, has packages, etc.

To further blur the distinction between the two, when you compile your AS3 project it actually uses the Sun Java compiler and compiles to Java bytecode. So at this point the only difference between Java and Actionscript3 is the parser (and the massive amount of libraries available to Java programmers but not to Flash programmers).

Re:So, does this mean

[Yvanhoe]

I am not a web developper, but do we really need anything more than optimized javascript + SVG ?

Re:So, does this mean

[Blakey Rat]

Flash runs just fine on PPC Macs. I have a friend with a Windows Mobile phone that has no problem viewing Hulu Flash movies. (No clue what CPUs in it, but I doubt it's x86.) I dunno where you got the idea that it's x86-only.

Re:So, does this mean

[aeoo]

"We can expect an open source Silverlight viewer?"

That won't be enough. We would want the entire stack to be open source and not just the viewer. In other words, .NET needs to become OSI-approved (http://www.opensource.org/) open source as well, at the very least, or better yet free GPL or LGPL software.

If Microsoft releases the entire .NET stack as GPL, then I will ignore that Microsoft is the parent, and trust the offspring, because I trust GPL so much that I can ignore the Microsoft's previous behavior. Otherwise -- not a chance.

Re:So, does this mean

[JPeMu]

I work as Lead Software Dev for an online gaming company, and use ActionScript daily for my job (as well as other languages of course). We have found that we *cannot* use AS3 which is a real pity as it's much quicker and improved over AS2 (strict typing etc) due to 2 major bugs:

First of all, there's an issue when dynamically loading images. No matter _how hard_ you try to dispose of allocated memory (Manual delete, NULL pointer, force GC etc etc) it does not free the previously allocated memory. Whopping memory leak. Furthermore, it's no longer possible to reference objects on the timeline until the frame _after_ they first get instantiated. Or the next one. Maybe. Or even the next one - all depends what mood the player is in. Sure, there's events you can hook in to to make sure you wait until the object's properly instantiated, but that kinda defeats the object of having a _time_line. So for us, AS3 is a bust until they can fix these issues.

Back OT, as for Silverlight - I've yet to see this running anything meaningful at more than a crawl. Even looking at some of the most basic of UI widget sets implemented in Silverlight is a painfully slow experience, so that's not going to cut it for me either. Anybody have any links to either "meaningful" Silverlight content (i.e. more than just "hello world"), or a UI widget set implemented in Silverlight that's usable real-time I'd be interested to check them out...

DT

Re:So, does this mean

[supernova_hq]

I am running a 64 bit version of ubuntu and while flash does work, it is ABYSMAL! I'm constantly switching between flashplugin-nonfree and gnash. One has no fullscreen and the other crashes on a regular basis.

Re:So, does this mean

[ThaReetLad]

How many critical remote execution vulnerabilities have there been in flash? Answer: A lot. A search on the CVE database returns 129 vulnerabilities. Even more if you include badly written flash apps.

From what I can glean from those vulnerabilities Flash does some horrible naughty things that make it very susceptible to buffer overflows and execution of arbitrary code, not to mention all the other nasty insecure things it can do with uPnP devices, webcams etc.

In comparison (although obviously, it's a new product with relatively few users) Silverlight has 0 (zero) known vulnerabilities.

Re:So, does this mean

[ThaReetLad]

And why is this a problem? We're talking about websites that will be changed and re-written regularly, not business critical servers that need to be available for 10 years, and honestly, when was the last time you went delving into the source code for any media codec? Of course, it's not like the flash player is OSS either, and if anything it's less OSS friendly than silverlight.

Re:So, does this mean

[ThaReetLad]

Why does this matter? Get some pragmatism, because we're talking about web sites, which just render and present data, not mission critical servers that need to run for 10 years or more.

Re:So, does this mean

[Blakey Rat]

Well, people can't say stuff like "it only runs on x86" then weasel-out of counter-examples by saying PPC is "fairly mainstream." The fact is it runs on PPC, and it runs on ARM (what my friend's phone is running) with no problems at all. I can also guarantee AMD64 works fine, it runs on my laptop's AMD Turion 64 fine.

Maybe your problem isn't Flash, but your OS. The reason it doesn't work on Sparc is that Sparc isn't a consumer OS! Or are you seriously suggesting people run Flash as SERVER software? Please. Adobe's already ported Flash for all consumer devices.

Re:So, does this mean

[miguel]

We are getting ready for our first beta of Moonlight 1.0, which will map to Silverlight 1.0, you have a few options to get it running:

(a) Wait until our official Beta launch, and it will contain an easy-to-install plugin. Click install, restart browser, you are done.

(b) You can use it today if you build from our source code, it is published here: http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight

(c) Repositories like Packman have RPMs that you can install for various distributions that you can install today.

We will be using Microsoft's Media Pack for Linux, which is a licensed version of the media codecs, binary drivers provided by Microsoft. This has the advantage that the media companies that own the patents on codecs have been paid for (MPEG-LA consortium and others).

For those of you that live in a country where software/machine patents are not enforced (media patents are enforced in Europe, contrary to popular lore) or those that just want to stick it to the man, you can build Moonlight with the open source FFMPEG media codecs.

Support for Silverlight 2.0 will ship in preview form in December.

Re:So, does this mean

[Doctor Faustus]

How does flash suck?
I don't know about Silverlight, but with AJAX sites, you can still cut-and-paste normally.

Re:So, does this mean

[EvilRyry]

The Novell distributed version will contain blobs for the Audio/Video codecs. Novell cannot distribute an open source codec for these even if Microsoft promised not to suit since a lot of the patents aren't owned by them either.

Fortunately you can easily swap out the blobs for FFMPEG if you're feeling risky (or live in a land where such patents aren't legally valid).

Re:So, does this mean

[aeoo]

"Get some pragmatism..."

Exactly. That's how I look at it. I see my friend struggle with .NET hosting, and then I also tried to use the .NET myself and I constantly ran into the documentation problem. Java is just so much better documented. Secondly, I like how you can SSH into a Linux/BSD box and administer it using command line. You don't usually get this kind of thing with Windows hosting. And the security and the price are big issues. Usually Linux is cheaper, because they don't have to amortize the cost of Windows and MS SQL Server licenses.

Linux has almost all the advantages over Windows. The only exception would be the VS web page building GUI, which doesn't work if you use a custom framework, and some minor advantages of the C# language (but it also has some disadvantages as well) as compared to Java. This is nowhere near enough to sway my preference. It's not even close. I am not a GUI guy. I like command lines and I am very comfortable not having the click and drag interface. In fact, when I get an option to use click and drag I almost always drop into the source view and ignore it. I do like language features to be as advanced as possible, however this is mitigated by the proprietary nature of C# (I don't take Mono seriously...sorry, it's nowhere close to the GPL'ed Java in usefulness or speed or tools). I want closures and other functional features in Java, but I am willing to wait.

For me the proprietary nature of certain things is a real pragmatic drawback. I see real pragmatic benefits from open source. And I also agree with RMS, in that the principle of freedom is too important to give up. So I see it both ways. I agree with ESR and I agree with RMS as well. Open source development produces better software given that all other factors remain the same, and freedom really IS important. Freedom is pragmatic. Freedom is not just a wishful dream of an idealistic hippie. People have died for freedom, so we better value it, or we will lose it.

Now when I get some software that I am FREE to use in any way I want, including modifying and redistributing said software, that's a freedom I really appreciate.

Sluts

[orsocio]

"...under its Microsoft Permissive License..."

love the way Microsoft kinda imply that open source is so slutty...

Re:Sluts

[moderatorrater]

They've got a point. These projects are letting themselves be manipulated in any way that these nerds can imagine. No wonder they've got such a bad reputation.

Re:Sluts

[Ethanol-fueled]

If Microsoft were really serious about pandering to the open source crowd then they would use a typical open source license or at least not anything with their own name stamped on it.

Hubris and ignorance.

Re:Sluts

[aztracker1]

You mean like the Apache License, and Mozilla Licenses are? (The licenses in the most widely used FOSS applications out there)... MS-PL is pretty much a BSD License plus a don't sue clause.

Re:Sluts

[lysergic.acid]

i'm still waiting for them to release it under the more "free spirited" Microsoft Promiscuous License.

Re:Sluts

[Ethanol-fueled]

I didn't mean to imply that a license shouldn't be named after a project or foundation, but the Apache and Mozilla foundations were made from open source so their licenses have more cred than those Microsoft, which has been historically proprietary and anti open-source.

Re:Sluts

[shutdown -p now]

That's why we have FSF and OSS cataloguing those licenses that are actually Free and Open-Source. Ms-PL is on the FSF list as a "free software license, compatible with version 3 of the GNU GPL" (which is to say, it's essentially the same as Apache License).

Re:twitter?

[Ethanol-fueled]

No. If it were Twitter then that post would be spread across 10 $ockpuppets.

Which is a shame, because Twitter says a lot of intelligent shit but he kills his case with his delivery(shameless responding to his own comments using "clones" of other popular users).

Ugh, I tire of this...

[TheNecromancer]

I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?? Silverlight is a tool that Microsoft is designing so that developers can take better advantage of the rich Internet experience. It steams me that the author of that article seems bent on pointing out that MS has this "ultimate plan" to kill Adobe.

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing? I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless. I tend to use the best tools available for the technologies that I code for, and Microsoft has some good ones! Sure, they are proprietary, but it could be any large corporation in MS's place, and people would rail on them for being the "big, bad corporation"! Open source has its' place in the industry, as does proprietary software!

Let's get past the hate, and just stick to what we (developers) do best: write awesome code!! I get stoked when I hear of new technologies coming out (from MS or Sun, or whomever), since that means the online experience users want is getting better, and WE are the ones who give it to the masses!!

W00t to new technologies!!

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[grub]

take better advantage of the rich Internet experience

I never understood how in recent times the term "experience" is applied to so many things. The net is a tool, not an experience. I use a hammer, I don't have "nail driving experiences" with one. I download BluRay rips, I'm not having a "copyright infringing experience".

Picking nits, I know...

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Microlith]

Silverlight is a tool that Microsoft is designing so that developers can take better advantage of the rich Internet experience.

Sounds like marketing drivel to me.

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing?

While financials are right in stating that past performance does not guarantee future performance, microsoft does not get the benefit of the doubt. They have (and continue to, albeit subtly) acted maliciously towards their competitors for a long time, and will spread FUD whenever they can to drive users to the "platform of choice*", namely Windows and Windows-derivatives.

Not to say that Microsoft hasn't come up with some good things. The problem is that adopting these good things puts you right where Microsoft wants you: following them lockstep, but never quite able to catch up.

That said, your post reeks of cheerleader. Wake me up when Mono catches up to .NET 3.0 (I think they just got 1.0 WinForms support and are nearing 2.0 compatibility?)

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Dan667]

I think that you are glossing over three decades of Microsoft stifling innovation, locking out others, and bullying. It is a very healthy thing to scrutinize Microsoft's activity and make sure others know to be wary of them. If they are going to behave differently they are not going to gain trust over night. But there is nothing so far that show that Microsoft is behaving any less badly than they have before.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[LWATCDR]

Well it has more to do with standards. I don't want to have anything I do on the internet tied to one OS, browser, or even software supplier.
Flash is supported on more OS's and more browsers than Silverlight.
Also I just can not trust microsoft to keep supporting anything but Windows.
IE, Mediaplayer, and VBA for Office all show that Microsoft will not support anything but Windows.
That isn't really politics it is just logic. The internet should be OS and Browser neutral.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[corsec67]

How is Silverlight going to make my "Internet Experience" better in FireFox on an Ubuntu AMD64 computer?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Timothy Brownawell]

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

You forgot "more useful". The more restrictions you impose on your customers, the less useful your code is.

I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless.

To a degree... but if you're relying on their future behavior (ie, not forcing silverlight to be windows-only), looking at past behavior is a decent idea.

I tend to use the best tools available for the technologies that I code for, and Microsoft has some good ones!

Yes, they do. But if I don't want my products to be tied to Windows, I have to either look elsewhere or trust Microsoft (in spite of all their history) to play nice.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[nurb432]

I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

Well of course, but since when has any Microsoft tool kit provided 'better/robust' code? ( its been decades )

Their current crop of tool kits ( and language of the week ) are the pinnacle of bloat and internal inefficiency.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[nurb432]

Oh, and if hear 'rich experience' one more time i think i'm going to puke.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[ConceptJunkie]

Saying Microsoft is trying to kill Adobe is "pro-" or "anti-" anything. It's an observation. It's what Microsoft always tries to do.

I think you're being just a little too sensitive here when talking about a company for which nothing is too low when it comes to smothering the competition.

Aside from that, if Silverlight is good, people will use it. Frankly, all I could ever get it to do is ask to be installed, even when it supposedly was. I guess it doesn't support Firefox. Flash is closed-source, a performance hog, and Adobe can't seem to port it to 64-bits even though they've been allegedly "trying" for years. If that doesn't tell you volumes about the quality of the code, then nothing will.

Silverlight is from Microsoft, therefore it will _not_ come without some huge club beating you in the face to lock you into Microsoft regardless of whether it's good or bad. This is an important consideration. Just when software is more cross-platform friendly than ever, Microsoft comes along and tries to set the clock back 10 years. No Linux support? Is this 1998 again?

These are important considerations above and beyond whether Silverlight is easy to work with and performs well. All Microsoft technology comes with a big ball-and-chain attached, backed by an obscenely powerful company who is not afraid to extort, intimidate and lie to maintain their advantage. For many people, that's not a problem and may even be seen as an advantage. For other people, it could be a deal-breaker.

If Microsoft wants to be treated based solely on the merits of their technology, then perhaps it's time, after 30 years, that they attempt to compete based solely on the merits of their technology.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[scorp1us]

1. MS has the developer interia to control the market.
2. MS continues to fracture the market, rather than compete. People like Icaza are mislead by MS, and end up being MS's Linux department. But it will always be a 2nd rate platform to Windows. This only benefits MS, because now they can make a claim that it "'can' run on Linux", but it actually won't be 100%, because they hold back some libraries.
3. Of the stuff that is available for linux, it isn't available until way late int he game.
4. Microsoft doesn't compete with better technology. They compete with inertia. The products are floating on install base, like the company is floating on cash reserves.

I wouldn't mind MS if they were really cross platform - meaning that they are responsible for mono, and make sure all libraries are available and work on mono on the same day they are released for windows.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Foofoobar]

Agreed. The web is meant to be cross platform and Microsoft keeps trying to tie the web to ther OS or their BROWSER or their TOOLS (which then tie back to their BROWSER which ties back to their OS). This is why people are anti Microsoft because Microsoft is anti-open and 'anti-cross platform'. Everytime they make the motion to be cross platform, they ruin it by tying it in to something else or exploiting it or making it obsolete. They can't just leave something open and cross platform. This is why people are suspicious that the have never accepted the GPL or any other truly open license.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing? I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless.

It's not pointless if they are continuing some ugly business practices. Not only is it enough of a track record to merit keeping a suspicious eye on them, they seem to be continuing it. It's enough that they highjacked the ISO standardization practices by stacking the votes or trying to throw procedures and votes out the door to get their Office format standardized, but they are trying to take control of the Open Office format as well.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[aztracker1]

Mono isn't a 1:1 implementation of .Net ... they are compatible with everything in 2.0 that matters. They have a large portion of the 3.0/3.5 stuff as well. (.Net 3.0 is pretty much an add-on to 2.0, while 3.5 has some core changes).

I've tested and deployed a number of applications under mono, including one that was built for mono. It's pretty nice, I wish people were more inclined to treat it like a first class citizen in linux distros.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[aztracker1]

Moonlight is free and open-source, and isn't going anywhere. MS has offered technical reviews and support to moonlight developers, and you'll likely see moonlight in your native x64 firefox before Flash.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[corsec67]

What happens when Silverlight is made incompatible with Moonlight? Moonlight seems to be in the "Embrace" phase, what about the extend and extinguish phases?

If you say to make stuff work for Moonlight, what happens when executables made for Moonlight don't work in Sliverlight?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Tweenk]

Mono isn't a 1:1 implementation of .Net ... they are compatible with everything in 2.0 that matters.

And Wine is compatible with everything that matters in the Win32 API. That doesn't cause all programs that matter to run correctly.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[gbjbaanb]

they are compatible with everything in 2.0 that matters

yeah? Which bits on .NET 2.0 don't matter (linux geeks - that was not an invitation to say 'all of it', k).

I wish they'd spent their time working on a better OS-level library for multiple languages than burden us with a locked-in Java clone (even if you can write the byte-code in other languages, where they fit with the .NET architectural model, that is)

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[registrar]

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

Nope. As a developer, the point is to build a relationship with the consumer of code---end users of various kinds. That relationship is compromised if the underlying technology is untrustworthy, whether for reasons of techical quality or otherwise.

At the moment, there are so many platforms of sufficiently high technical quality (including Windows) that platform decisions should be made on other grounds. For me: (1) is the platform portable? (2) is it susceptible to embrace-and-extend?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[ignavus]

I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

No. The point is to avoid market lock-in and stop abusive monopoly from *spreading further*.

If you ignore the politics of the market, you will eventually have no choice of technology. So while you are busy just wanting to look at the technology, Microsoft is busy trying to restrict your choice of technology. If you don't value your freedom, you *will* lose it unless others less blinkered fight the battle for you.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[norite]

How the fuck can I have a *cough* "rich internet experience" with silverlight on a 64bit dual core PC running Linux????

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[JCSoRocks]

Ugh it seems like nothing works on 64bit. I finally gave up and built a dual boot system just so that I could actually run half of my applications. All this in spite of the fact that I've read multiple articles / rumors about Windows 7 being 64bit only. Which... given how things went with Vista and people complaining about backward compatibility and driver issues... I don't even see happening anymore. Which is sad, because 32 bit needs to be given the axe.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[naasking]

It steams me that the author of that article seems bent on pointing out that MS has this "ultimate plan" to kill Adobe.

It steams me too! Their ultimate plan is quite clearly intended to kill all Internet competitors, not just Adobe! Shame on all of you for thinking MS would be so short-sighted!

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[ConceptJunkie]

No, I didn't know that. Frankly, I don't care about what Microsoft does.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[markdavis]

I tell you what, perhaps YOU should use something OTHER than an MS operating system and browser and then tell us how happy you are about Silverlight or IE-only sites, etc. There are many, MANY reasons to use something other than MS products. And if that is or has been what one choses to use, then the things that MS does that either intentionally or unintentionally causes those people pain is going to piss them off.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[markdavis]

You are right. It really ISN'T going anywhere.

It is, in reality, a kludge. It will always lag far behind .NET and Silverlight. And when things don't work in it, vendors and site developers aren't going to give a damn. As usual, non MS users are going to be screwed.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[cpeterso]

Adobe can't seem to port it to 64-bits even though they've been allegedly "trying" for years.

What would you do with a 64-bit Flash Player?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[sandoval88419]

I'm so tired of reading these anti-tech articles with an MS bias to them, go play with your digg

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[pembo13]

I like how people answer the question 'how is Silverlight going to do X' with 'Moonlight...'. Maybe I am the only one who sees those as two different things.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[KGIII]

I just want a moment of clarity, I'm actually kind of high tonight so maybe I'm missing something basic.

By FUD you mean the whole suits vs. Linux or Unix thing?

If that is the case, and I mean "if" really, then you are aware that Microsoft has soooooooo many patents that it is unlikely that there is something in Linux, Unix, Mac, BeOS, RiscOS, etc that is not actually covered by a Microsoft patent? Better yet... You do realize that Microsoft has patents for things that haven't even been invented yet from the looks of some of them.

The United States is not the center of the world and some areas allow for various patent laws. However, they still carry a heavy stick for the time being. As the rest of the world won't trust China this seems to be a trend that is going to continue for quite some time. For better, for worse, regardless of ideology, regardless of foaming at the mouth - this seems to be the case.

If you mean their TCO studies then we must accept that, for better or worse, those studies were done where they already had trained monkeys familiar with the Windows environment and then realize the added cost of re-training people. There may be a sunrise for Linux as the desktop in the average household but it is unlikely for quite some time to come.

We typically blame patents for these things. The capitalist in me says, "Ha ha!" The realist in me goes, "Holy shit this is not going to end well." The maniac me goes, "Whoopee! FTW and give me a fiddle." The rest of me thinks it is time for a couple more hits.

My prescription is to go read Tom Robbins' "Fierce Invalids Home From Hot Climates."

It won't help any but it will keep you amused while you look out the second floor window as the house burns.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[KGIII]

What happens when your favorite distro goes belly up?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Raenex]

People like Icaza are mislead by MS

People like Icaza are smart enough to know the game. If they are mislead it is because of their own choosing.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[supernova_hq]

Wow, just, wow...

Do the words open source mean anything to you? Or the fact that you an pick up pretty much ANY other distro and move your stuff over? If ubuntu died (including it's parent debian), I can simply format my main driver, install something else (fedora, dsl, etc), point /home to my secondary partition and BOOM, back up and running in about an hour!

Try doing that with a web technology that no longer supports your O.S. due to the KERNEL!

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[digitalgiblet]

I use a hammer, I don't have "nail driving experiences" with one.

You, sir, have CLEARLY never tried the Hammer-Matic 2500 Xtreme. It has an ergonomic handle and a 3 megaton nail-pounding turbo-booster. I once achieved nirvana THREE TIMES while building a birdhouse. Remember, just because YOU have never had a nail driving experience, doesn't mean that the rest of us are so limited in our hammer-wielding world-view!

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[Tim C]

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??

As a developer, yes. However, that is not and never has been an aim of this website. This website exists to provide CmdrTaco with interesting stuff to read (read the FAQ), and he and the other admins are all very heavily pro-FOSS and anti-MS.

I'm tired of the often mindless bias too, but you really should know what to expect when you read this site by now.

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[KGIII]

Oh OSS means exactly what it means (I think) to me. In this case, don't you think that if Silverlight is popular enough that the ball will be picked up and carried even if Microsoft goes all Scrooge on people?

Re:Ugh, I tire of this...

[aztracker1]

For the most part what isn't implemented is MS's "Enterprise" stack, which is really limited in terms of what applications are written to support it, and is particularly tied to MS on the backend. There are a lot of alternatives to this stack available to .Net, cross-platform, and cross-environment (Java, etc). The bulk of what is available in .Net, outside of these parts is available in mono.

did they finally get datagrid compat going

[StupidPeopleTrick]

silverlight 1.0 had not XAML controls for the simple datagrid control. OMG what a stuff up! You had to go to xceed to get one and pay for it. That little detail made me so mad that I have sworn off silverlight. The message was clear, if your a small development shop, you cannot afford silverlight. Oh by the way, where is the automated testing framework for writting automated UI tests against it? anyone?... anyone?... - StupidPeopleTrick

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going

[Shados]

Silverlight 1.0 had no data controls in general, it was just for vectorial drawing and animations. Just a marketing trick to get the name out there... originally, Silverlight 2.0 was supposed to be the "first". It went from being WPF/E, to Silverlight, to Silverlight 1.1, to Silverlight 2.0.

Wasn't the xceed grid for WPF, not Silverlight, though?

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going

[Dragonshed]

silverlight 1.0 had not XAML controls for the simple datagrid control. OMG what a stuff up! You had to go to xceed to get one and pay for it. That little detail made me so mad that I have sworn off silverlight. The message was clear, if your a small development shop, you cannot afford silverlight.

Silverlight 1.0 development was a pain, most people opted to wait for 2. Silverlight 2 includes a datagrid for free.

Oh by the way, where is the automated testing framework for writting automated UI tests against it? anyone?... anyone?...

http://blogs.msdn.com/sburke/archive/2008/09/30/unit-testing-with-silverlight.aspx
Written by the PM in charge of most of the control development to date.

Your message was FUD. Any more that I can dispel?
-ds

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going

[StupidPeopleTrick]

FUD, no. More of a real disappointment over the Silverlight 1.1. When you go to all of the .net user groups, etc. and think to yourself "wow this is cool" - then sit down and play for 3-4 hours and realize how it falls so short, it leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth. The whole xceed thing ($) is what really got me. I may look at sl 2.0, but I still have to get over the first (bad) impression of sl 1.1. - StupidPeopleTrick

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going

[aztracker1]

I waited for 2.0 to even look into it.. to be honest, I probably won't do anything significant for a few years... it could be the first cross platform MS has ever had that they support for more than 2-3 years.

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going

[markdavis]

Supporting only two of the three major Operating Systems is not, in my book, "cross platform". Wake me up when MS directly ports, supports, and keeps current, .NET/Silverlight on Linux (cause Mono ain't gonna cut it). And with their track record, even if they DID support it, it would be only long enough to kill off competition, then, suddenly and mysteriously, all the versions except the ones for MS's platform will start to fall behind, experience incompatibilities or interesting bugs, and then break/disappear alltogether.

Been there. Done that.

History has a way of repeating itself.

Re:did they finally get datagrid compat going

[aztracker1]

MS has put quite a bit of effort into supporting Novel/Mono in developing Moonlight. There's very little benefit to MS porting to Linux, simply because the Mono guys are already familiar with the platform/environment, and are more capable of actually developing in/for the environment. I wouldn't be surprised if MS paid Novel to maintain the OSX version in the future based off of Moonlight, over the MS version.

Really nice Silverlight sample site

[RingDev]

http://gallery1.demconvention.com/

Yup, the Democratic National Convention site is Silverlight. The bandwidth isn't quite as impressive as it was while the event was going on. But flip through the site and check out the functionality.

As someone who has developed a bit with the beta Silverlight tools, I have to say it is an amazing platform. And I'm quite excited about using it in the future.

-Rick

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[argent]

But flip through the site and check out the functionality.

We're sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isn't compatible with your operating system and/or browser.

I'm sorry, but you're making me more interested in what McCain's got to say.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[PhattyMatty]

I went to that site and checked out the functionality. It turns out that that meant watching a couple of videos and then having it crash my Firefox... So far I haven't seen much good in Silverlight.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[alexmin]

I can hardly call this nice: "Weâ(TM)re sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isnâ(TM)t compatible with your operating system and/or browser. Please try again on a computer with the following:"

Rather like 'stupid'

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[dpbsmith]

OK. I tried. ll I got was an error message:

"We're sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isn't compatible with your operating system and/or browser. Please try again on a computer with the following:Compatible operating systems:
Windows XP SP2, Windows Vista, or a Mac with Tiger (OS 10.4) or Leopard (OS 10.5).
Compatible browsers:
Internet Explorer (version 6 or later), Firefox (version 2), or, if you are on a Mac, Safari (version 3.1) also works."

The thing is, I'm using what they themselves say works: Safari version 3.1.2, Mac OS X 10.4.11.

They are entitled to say what it's compatible with. If it's not compatible with something they declare it to be compatible with, then screw it.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[TerminaMorte]

I'd love to check it out; unfortunately I use an "unsupported" product. As do most of my classmates going through college for CS.

Guess what platform we like using and developing for? :P It's not Windows/Mac.

For the best Democratic Convention video experience, you'll need the Microsoft Silverlight plug-in and the Move Networks media player. We're sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isn't compatible with your operating system and/or browser. Please try again on a computer with the following:
Compatible operating systems:

Windows XP SP2, Windows Vista, or a Mac with Tiger (OS 10.4) or Leopard (OS 10.5).
Compatible browsers:
Internet Explorer (version 6 or later), Firefox (version 2), or, if you are on a Mac, Safari (version 3.1) also works.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[The Cisco Kid]

The practice of a web site checking to see what software you have (or it having any reason to need to) is just insane.

Almost as absurd if the gas pump is going to start deciding wether my car is compatible with its fuel.

You want to put information on the web, put *the information* on the web, in a data form in a documented and standards-compliant format. Let the *web browser* decide what formats of data it is capable of displaying.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[I'm Don Giovanni]

http://nbcolympics.com/ , which uses Silverlight for its videos, is still running as well.

And there are some very cool Silverlight Deep Zoom sites like http://www.deepzoomobama.com/ , that Flash has no answer for at all.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[Mateo_LeFou]

"put *the information* on the web, in a data form in a documented and standards-compliant format."

Yeah, right. I don't see how anyone's going to get a Rich Internet Experience(TM) out of that.

Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site

[argent]

Gee, and it took me a whole 10 seconds to download and install Silverlight 2.0

What part of "not supported" do you fail to understand?

More links on the topic

[Dragonshed]

SL Eclipse Tools project
    http://www.eclipse4sl.org/

MS Press release (interestly enough, it plans linux as a supported platform)
    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/oct08/10-13Silverlight2PR.mspx

Silverlight 2 release is imminent.

Re:More links on the topic

[triso]

[...]

MS Press release (interestly enough, it plans linux as a supported platform)

If the Linux version ever comes out, I predict it will cause random crashes and Microsoft will blame it on Linux and open source.

Why not use a fully open-source toolkit?

[scorp1us]

Given that Adobe AIR is based on WebKit, and the OpenSource world has Webkit (Qt has Webkit integrated, but Qt is not required for my suggestion), why don't we just make a fully AIR/Silverlight clone using WebKit and Javascript?

The proper way to woo.

[bionicpill]

Everyone knows real developers work on beer, not on Eclipse.

Re:The proper way to woo.

[CallsignBaron]

Everyone knows real developers work on beer, not on Eclipse.

No, real developers live on coffee and they fear the daylight. They may actually get more done during an Eclipse.

Yes this is fantastic new tech.....

[MM-tng]

We are sorry, but the Democratic Convention video web site isn't compatible with your operating system and/or browser. Please try again on a computer with the following: Compatible operating systems: Windows XP SP2, Windows Vista, or a Mac with Tiger (OS 10.4) or Leopard (OS 10.5).
Compatible browsers: Internet Explorer (version 6 or later), Firefox (version 2), or, if you are on a Mac, Safari (version 3.1) also works.

You can also keep up with us in Denver on our main web

Ahhh the memories.....

Re:Yes this is fantastic new tech.....

[RingDev]

Yup, new technology. Specifically, new technology that isn't designed (by Microsoft) to run on Linux. Luckily, there is the Moonlight project from the same people who brought us Mono.

But if you want to play the high-horse battle... Gnome 2.24 sucks because it wont install on my PC-Dos operating system!

-Rick

Re:Yes this is fantastic new tech.....

[Tweenk]

I installed Moonlight but the same message keeps appearing on the Democratic Convention site, and the Hard Rock Memorabilia site crashes FF. So much for Moonlight. It's a Microsoft perpetrated scam to fool people into thinking that Silverlight is portable to OSes not targeted by Microsoft.

Re:Yes this is fantastic new tech.....

[RingDev]

So web developers should only aim to provide text based content because some people refuse to keep up to date?

Silverlight is currently in beta, soon to be launched. I would imagine that MS will do their damnest to get as much penetration as they can. And that means improving performance on FF (I haven't had it crash yet, but it is much laggier) and working with the folks at Moonlight to get things flowing there.

But hey, some people complained about this whole 'Netscape Navigator' thing back in the day. It's just some new fangled fad that won't amount to anything...

For now, Silverlight is competition for Flash. If the competition between the two of them gets us either a flash level of portability in Silverlight, or an ease of development like Silverlight has in Flash, it will be good for us the developers and consumers.

-Rick

Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[Weaselmancer]

How the hell did you get all that in there fast enough to be the top page post? I just picture someone foaming at the mouth and typing so fast hummingbirds are frightened.

I have my problems with Microsoft too, but damn. Go outside. Walk a park. Read a book. You don't need an ulcer at your age.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[martinw89]

Actually, I imagine this as some late 30s, early 40s year old guy living in his mom's basement with trollish rants ready to copy and paste. He also has a barbecue sauce stain on his shirt.

Actually, that's how I see all trolls.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[I'm not really here]

Automated script to find the word Microsoft in a posted story, and auto post as anonymous coward with a pre-"recorded" tirade against Microsoft. Note how it didn't specifically address the Silverlight platform. This was a canned response, and one put in by someone with way to much time on their hands to code something to do this for them (or too much time to sit around while Firefox refreshes the page every minute until they see a Microsoft story and pounce).

Microsoft is not a single entity... Microsoft is made up of thousands of employees, and I'm sure there are some who work with Silverlight that really really want this to be the next Flash.

I personally would be very upset if Silverlight became a common tool, due to the frustrations with implementing it outside of IE.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[omnipresentbob]

Walk a park

I think the majority people would find this difficult to do. Most parks are rather stationary.

Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing

[genner]

Actually, I imagine this as some late 30s, early 40s year old guy living in his mom's basement with trollish rants ready to copy and paste. He also has a barbecue sauce stain on his shirt.

Actually, that's how I see all trolls.

Hey now I finally got my own apartment and my shirt is clean.....because my mom still does my laundry.

Embraced and extended already?

[argent]

In addition, Goldfarb said the new Silverlight 2.0 player comes with a cut-down version of Microsoft's .Net runtime. That means that .Net developers -- Microsoft says there are 4 million of them -- can build Silverlight applications purely through .Net.

So, is this cut-down .NET runtime compatible with the Mono cut-down .NET environment that Moonlight is built on, or not?

So, does this mean...pictures.

[Ostracus]

"Flash sucks, a lot. The sooner we have another cross platform app for doing online animations and movies the better."

SVG and SMIL so where's my viewer?

I got tired of it too...

[argent]

As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?

I used to be platform-agnostic and hardware-agnostic, but after a few rounds of companies pulling platforms out from under me... "better" code that depends on a single vendor is something I have to look long and hard into before I'm going to jump on board. I don't care whether it's called NextStep or .NET, SmallTalk* or BeOS, if it's under the effective control of a single company it's pre-doomed. Over the past 30 years I've been burned too many times to trust ANY proprietary platform.

take better advantage of the rich Internet experience

Another buzz-phrase that was just as scary when it was the rich Desktop experience. That turned into a Microsoft-controlled virus hive. Not going there again.

I tend to use the best tools available

Me too, so long as nobody can pull those tools out from under me because they went out of business or changed their goals. I don't care so much whether it's open source or not, so long as there's multiple sources out there.

Re:I got tired of it too...

[The Cisco Kid]

Of course, if its about software tools, generally the tools that arent free and open, also don't have multiple sources.

Re:I got tired of it too...

[argent]

Of course, if its about software tools, generally the tools that arent free and open, also don't have multiple sources.

That doesn't make things any simpler... it's more important than ever to understand the differences between "free as in speech" and "free as in beer" and "open source" and "open systems".

There's even free-as-in-speech tools that aren't open in the open-systems sense, because they have a single implementation. Most open-source scripting languages, for example... which makes Live^WJava^WECMAscript one of the most open scripting languages out there despite the lack of a good open command-line implementation because it's got worse runtime-dependance then Modula ever did. And of course in contrast the open-systems software platform - UNIX - is available in multiple open- and closed-source forms.

And Mono itself is an open source implementation of a very proprietary system... and I'm more than a bit concerned about Silverlight now being extended to include "a subset of .NET" when there's no guarantee that subset will match the subset of .NET that Mono implements now and in the future.

Meanwhile Flash is free-as-in-beer but not open-source, but because its scripting is based on the VERY open ECMAscript there's been a lot of work on implementing it to try and turn it into a mostly-open-systems platform.

Then there's proprietary-but-publicly-documented web services like Google's. And closed-and-open-license systems like Qt...

And the people who started the whole open systems thing, and the open source thing, they're all still alive, so I can't really come up with a nice snappy "X-is-spinning-in-his-grave" signoff...

Re:Ugh, I tire of this..."online experience"

[hAckz0r]

Or lack there of...

If Microsoft wants to change the world I suggest they try to create a tool that will just 'run anywhere'. Sure, they could create the killer Developer environment and drive the droves of mindless programmers to their wonderful platform, I'm all for it, but at the end of the day if I can't run the final application on my platform then its just useless. What irks me is that Microsoft puts so much time, effort, and money into making sure I can't run it on (pick your platform of choice, any, just not written by Microsoft) platform X. All Microsoft has to do to get my support is to stop keeping others from interoperating. This this 'experience' you want to talk about is just a usability issue of the 'Internet', which Microsoft seems to think should be renamed to the 'Inter-NOT'. When I can run Silverlight on any platform that Microsoft didn't write, then and only then, will I give it the light of day.

Re:The crushing truth about Windows

[Ethanol-fueled]

You posted the same damn thing in the last discussion. Wow, 2 FP's in a row, good for you, but could you please write at least one separate troll for each discussion? How about a Goatse?

Re:Oh, Please!

[aztracker1]

I would disagree strongly that MS hasn't done any bullying... they've done a lot of it regarding OEMs, and in particular in the Win16 days regarding other versions of DOS. More recently, they did a lot to undercut Netscape Server out of the loop (not that it didn't deserve it). I absolutely hate the levels of registration/validation in Windows now, and even in Office.

MS adds a lot of value to what they offer, but that doesn't mean they get a free pass regarding transgressions of the past. However, on its' own merit, I find the .Net stack (especially since 2005) to be really nice, and that includes the upcoming release of Silverlight.

Your sig is too specific...

[ConceptJunkie]

'I disagree with you therefore you're biased.' - every Microsoft Fanboi

That should be attributed to a large percentage of people on every discussion forum on the Internet. Frankly I think it's much worse when it comes to politics than with technical subjects.

Another one which is even worse and almost as ubiquitous:

"You disagree with me, which is a personal attack. You are evil. I hate you."

I have never been more viciously attacked than by people by people who cannot make this distinction.

Re:Your sig is too specific...

[Foofoobar]

True, it's every person who cannot overcome personal feelings to look at the real issue. For both of those. But in this case, It's specific to the forum and the people who most often choose to flame here; For open source advocates, Slashdot is their territory and Microsoft people often come here just to bash. Some are less agressive, some more devious (ie I use said open source tool all the time but I a friend introduced me to said Microsoft tool and now I am an instant Microsoft tool) and others are true engineers who understand that Microsoft tools have their uses and open source tools have their uses and truly wish that Microsoft would work with the other development communities to be more cross platform as well.

To those few engineers within the Microsoft fold, I salute you for still retaining you engineering instincts. Everyone else, I deride and laugh.

Re:Your sig is too specific...

[KGIII]

It seems we are, or as it were, discussing your signature. If we're to degrade to digression then, if you will allow, let me bring to light my own point of view.

I disagree with you because you are biased.

I dislike fanbois of all types because they are so unbiased that they will not accept the truth.

The truth is, as I see it, that everyone has the right to pick the tools that help them get their job done the best that they can using as little amount of time as they need to spend to do said task while gaining maximum enjoyment from performing said task.

To me the very idea that I should force a view on someone is wrong. The very idea that I should encourage someone to believe as I do smacks of religious dogma. I'm not sure if some people are totalitarianism in nature or if their finding their own new religion and becoming profits of the day.

I think that it may be zealotry and bigotry that remain the downfalls of Mac, Linux, Unix, etc...

"I use _____ so I am better than you."
"I believe in _____ so I am better than you."
"I see _____ in our future so I am better than you."

If we step out of the belief, dogma if you will, and be objective about what we really believe freedom to be we may all figure out that it doesn't really matter so long as the job gets done and people are happy. Pleasure is under-rated and often much easier to find than people seem to believe.

Re:Your sig is too specific...

[NickFortune]

The truth is, as I see it, that everyone has the right to pick the tools that help them get their job done the best that they can using as little amount of time as they need to spend to do said task while gaining maximum enjoyment from performing said task.

Oh, certainly, everyone has that right. That said .... I don't think those are the only considerations that should matter.

To me the very idea that I should force a view on someone is wrong.

OK, I can go along with that. Key word here being "force", of course. Visiting entire communities with Fire and Sword unless they bow down and worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster is clearly a bad thing. Arguing with someone on Slashdot is something of a grey area in comparison.

The very idea that I should encourage someone to believe as I do smacks of religious dogma. I'm not sure if some people are totalitarianism in nature or if their finding their own new religion and becoming profits of the day.

See, now this is where you lost me. Take someone like Louis Pasteur who worked long and hard to get people to accept the idea that disease was caused by germs, and that simply washing your hands before eating or preparing food could vastly improve people's health. Was he wrong to encourage all those people to believe as he did? I'd have thought the benefits were undeniable.

Now personally, I think free software also has the potential to make life better for everyone, and therefore I do encourage people to adopt its use. That said, I don't think the social and economic benefits are the only considerations, or necessarily the most important considerations. In the long run though, I think free software is a better way of doing things, and I don't see anything wrong in a little polite advocacy.

If we step out of the belief, dogma if you will, and be objective about what we really believe freedom to be

So I should step out of my belief, and then step into into yours? But then aren't you being all dogmatic and religious when you say that? That's the problem with trying to stigmatise persuasion as you seem to be trying to do - it makes simple discussion unethical. I can't see that as being a good thing under any circumstances.

I really think you need to think this one through again.

Re:Your sig is too specific...

[KGIII]

I'd do the quote thing but that is way too much work at this early hour.

Hmm... In the case of Louis I'd say he should have just put it out there and then answered questions if people approached him. In his case he was right but for every right thinking person out there there seem to be two or three others yelling just as loudly.

And, finally, you shouldn't step out of your belief and into mine, you should find your own path. I like mine so I think you should but you're not supposed to take my word on it.

By the way, I'm not at all sure how prophets became profits in my mind other than to say I was really remarkably high. 'Tis that season in the area. As I look at my other posts from last night that one was the only really bizarre one.

Re:Your sig is too specific...

[Foofoobar]

I think that it may be zealotry and bigotry that remain the downfalls of Mac, Linux, Unix,etc...

How convenient you named all the ones based upon open platforms (yes BSD is fairly open) but left out something that remains to open anything. Psychologically, when someone closes a door in front of you and says 'No Blanks allowed' isn't that considered bigotry?? But you seem to apply it to those who open the door and say, 'everyone allowed'. I don't think you understand the word bigotry sir and should probably take a long look in the mirror.

Patented media codecs

[janwedekind]

From the Moonlight website:

The Microsoft Media Pack will be a product distributed by Microsoft that includes a license to the various media codecs for video and audio and will be available from Microsoft's web site for Moonlight to consume.

That does not sound like open source to me!

Interesing Details

[scorp1us]

Qt+Webkit:

• Both support JS,
• Are both Open Source (Commercial Qt apps can be linked against the OpenSource version)
• Both are compilable on just about every platform.
• Qt provides the ability to embed a Qt custom control into WebKit, and expose it to JS for scripting. You can even use Java with it if you're a byte-code purist.

It seems the Qt+WebKit combo is only in need of convenience functions to make it more appealing.

And they have mail problems...

[argent]

I decided to send them some mail, letting them know that they were setting a bad example, and mail to their contact address got stuck in an SNTP look going through smtp-red001.mail.microsoftonline.com.

Oh my.

No mobile?

[caywen]

Wake me up when they support iPhone and WinMo. For that matter, wake me up when they have *Flash* for iPhone :-) Also, I propose a Silverlight interpreter written in Flash. I think they should call it Flashlight.

Re:No mobile?

[The Cisco Kid]

No one in their right mind develops anything except entertainment and game sites in flash.

I am quite content that the iPhone has no flash, and hope that the desire to be accesible from an iPhone drives any site that currently requires flash just to access the site to ditch it, or at least make a non-flash alternative. (I'm looking at you, GrandCentral, although I suppose you're boycotting the iPhone and are holding out for Android).

Microsoft highlights Silverlight on Linux

[ThaReetLad]

Why don't you go to the microsoft silverlight site? OK, the presentation is a pretty awful case of marketeering, but what's interesting is that it makes a point of being cross platform and supporting a range of browsers, on windows, mac and linux. The presentation highlights mobile internet on phone, which makes me suspect that a silverlight implementation for mobile devices is just around the corner.

Re:Microsoft highlights Silverlight on Linux

[ConceptJunkie]

You assume I care. The only reason I tried to install Silverlight was because Microsoft suggested it in order to take advantage of their new download features. I tried it and it failed miserably. I don't even run Windows any more. I'll care if some online app I want to use requires it, _and_ I can get it running with a minimum of trouble. I'm through fighting and clawing and groveling to get Microsoft crap to work. They get one chance, and if it fails as utterly as Silverlight did for me, then I quit. Sorry, this is 2008, not 1983. Software made by a company with billions of dollars and tens of thousands of employees should occasionally work and if, after all the hundreds if not thousands of dollars Microsoft has extorted from me over the past 20 years being a customer of theirs I have to put up with hassle on top of it, then I have no patience.

Re:Oh, Please!

[gbjbaanb]

However, on its' own merit, I find the .Net stack (especially since 2005) to be really nice,/i>

that's exactly the problem......... see, MS has panicked when it realised a lot of developers jumped ship for mobile, internet and Linux based development platforms, so it reorganised significantly around their new programming platform and spent a lot of marketing money persuading you that it was the only game in town. Added some syntactic sugar and a new IDE and you've fallen at their feet declaring undying love. And now you'll be writing .NET apps, that run on... Windows only.

I do think Mono is a curve ball to the plans that they didn't expect (ok, maybe not the developers at the bottom, but the executives at the top, charged with making money for MS shareholders and bringing in ever-increasing growth of windows software), the question is what they will do about it. I don't think anyone is naive enough to think MS will sit back and say 'no problem' if everyone starts developing in Mono and leaving Windows for a more credit-crunch friendly platform.

Currently they're happy with their domination of the developer mindset, give us fancy tools, 'easy to use' framework and we all go back to Visual Studio, Expression Blend, SQL Server, Windows Server... and they make a ton of money and laugh at the other 'failed' platforms that looked so promising as free/open source grew.

Its a pretty interesting time at the moment, MS is fighting back against Linux and Google, .NET is the weapon they're using. I don't know how it'll pan out but .NET is not an altruistic platform-agnostic development system. Its really designed to make you into a Windows developer, developing Windows-only software just like the last few years.

I'll say it... somebody has to

[renegadesx]

The Flash player on Linux sucks, its pretty dodgy, crashes alot and then when you move to 64-bit... whoa! So far Gnash doesn't handle flash video the best, especially YouTube. If Moonlight is able to make it into many distros as open source, this may be the way to do things.

Re:I'll say it... somebody has to

[howlingmadhowie]

i'd have thought the way forward is to get decent svg rendering in firefox/konqueror. then you wouldn't need flash.

Goldfarb

[naasking]

The latter, said Goldfarb, should make it easier for would-be Silverlight developers."

I'm glad to see Microsoft's goblin integration program is still going strong.

Re:Oh, Please!

[markdavis]

Mono isn't a "curveball". In fact, MS *loves* Mono, because they can point to it and say "see, .NET is multiplatform", when it really isn't. Parts of it might be, in THEORY. In practice, Mono is ALWAYS going to be an incompatible, lagging-behind, afterthought. It's existence might actually do more to damage platform neutrality by luring people into thinking that .NET (and Silverlight) is going to make everyone happy... it isn't.

Re:The awful truth about Linux vs Microsoft

[alexmin]

"And You? Where do you want to go today?" - me is going to insanely expensive restaurant to spend a fraction of profits made today using Linux and console apps.

And you? Going to click-a-rama session because you cannot script tasks properly on the only "real" platform?

Moonlight is GPL - come help out!

[benwaggoner]

Except that a plugin is not available on Linux. MS touts Moonlight as a nearly complete port of Silverlight to Linux but in fact it's very far from being usable - even Gnash is light years ahead of Moonlight when compared with their closed source versions.

Bear in mind Moonlight is GPL'ed. The appropriate response on Slashdot is, I believe, "if you want it, start writing some code" :).

A good post on this topic from my colleague Alex Zambelli:

http://alexzambelli.com/blog/2008/08/16/moonlight-20-help-wanted/

Re:Moonlight is GPL - come help out!

[rdebath]

And I don't want it, so I won't.

Likewise Microsoft aren't helping so they don't want it either; in fact they are actively hindering with their usual technique of making Silverlight a moving target.

Re:Moonlight is GPL - come help out!

[benwaggoner]

Likewise Microsoft aren't helping so they don't want it either; in fact they are actively hindering with their usual technique of making Silverlight a moving target.

Eh? It's an in development technology! How exactly could it NOT be a moving target? There's been breaking changes documentation available for quite a while indicating what was different from Beta 2 to the final version.

In more relevant news, there's now Microsoft-funded Eclipse support for Silverlight coming
http://www.eclipse4sl.org/

Re:twitter?

[ozphx]

{citation needed}

In the Jun '08 quarter, Microsoft made 15 billion in revenue, 12 billion of that was net profit. So far this year they have increased their cash reserves by 4 billion.

MS is delivering almost a 50% return on equity this year. They're at the top of their sector in most financial categories, and I don't see Sun or Redhat even coming close.

PS: We all know Erris and Twitter are the same damn person.

Tag it from now on "WorksForNow"

[symbolset]

From now until the end of time Microsoft's cross platform adventures should be tagged "Works For Now". As their DRM brand "Plays For Sure" should have been called "Plays For Now", as their "Internet Explorer" languished free of development until a challenger arose, the only thing certain about Microsoft product development is that there will come a day when utility is deprecated to further Microsoft's perceived economic interests. As soon as they perceive that either they have market ownership or that market ownership cannot be achieved they abandon further development. This is not progress.

Re:Oh, Please!

[gbjbaanb]

ok, I chose poor a poor term ... but you're exactly right.

At the moment, I see a lot of devs writing .NET code, and wanting to slap a WPF GUI on them, Mono doesn't support this, and apparently won't for ages. So immediately you see Mono being cross platform only for a subset of applications (eg server). I think MS will be happy with that.

Re:The awful truth about Linux vs Microsoft

[lamapper]

You have some valid points, however some of the information you posted appears dated and probably needs to be updated.

Except for Microsoft Specific games (I don't like apps like WINE that just slow me down) most of what a newbie user needs works out of the case, plug and play, as the millions of new ultra notebooks sold at $399 since before last Xmas show. I am hoping to run MS on top of Xen / Linux, thus controlling the security problems by putting MS in its own sand box that I can control - probably a pipe dream, no pun intended.

Not only am I using an utlra notebook now, even though I have access to many other towers and PCs, I have some kids and some friends converted to use them as well. Why buy one machine for one person, when you can buy three for three people with the same amount of money? The kids only complaint is not being able to run the Microsoft games. They surf the net just fine and can do their homework without issues.

As for Silverlight and NBC, I just watched the Olympics on HDTV. They don't give me a non MS option, I find a different source, problem solved.

Silverlight becomes a non issue as there are always more sources available for any information online, as applications move to servers on the internet (aren't you glad I did not say those fluffy white things that float around the sky) it becomes even more of a non issue. The future looks bright!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

must...resist!

[cyclomedia]

developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
*throws chair*
*throws chair*

developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
developers developers developers developers
G.P.L.
G.P.L.?

G...P...L...!!??
Not the...
G...P...L...!!!!

developers...

[well the karma was nice while it lasted]

Re:must...resist!

[Richard_at_work]

Did you intend this to go exactly to the 'Badger Badger...' tune? ;)

Re:The awful truth about Linux vs Microsoft

[david_thornley]

and with its advanced successor, the recently Windows Vista, that offers a new form to interact with our PCs. Is faster, friendlier, and secure.

And here's where your credibility dropped to zero. You may consider Vista friendlier (the default GUI is much prettier, if somewhat less functional), but I find XP does more of what I want. I have found Vista sluggish (on a powerful machine). It is probably more secure than XP, but it's certainly too soon to say it's secure.