Physicist Admits Sending Space-Related Military Secrets To China

piemcfly writes "Chinese-born physicist Shu Quan-Sheng Monday pleaded guilty before a US court to violating the Arms Export Control Act by illegally exporting American military space know-how to China. The 68-year-old naturalized US citizen, pictured here on his company profile, admitted handing over the design of fueling systems between 2003 and 2007. Also, in 2003 he illegally exported a document with the impossibly long name of 'Commercial Information, Technical Proposal and Budgetary Officer — Design, Supply, Engineering, Fabrication, Testing & Commissioning of 100m3 Liquid Hydrogen Tank and Various Special Cryogenic Pumps, Valves, Filters and Instruments.' This contained the design of liquid hydrogen tanks for space launch vehicles. He also admitted to a third charge of bribing Chinese officials to the tune of some 189,300 dollars for a French space technology firm." Here's the FBI press release regarding Shu's plea.

Comments

Industrial espionage

[Ethanol-fueled]

Eh, it's nothing new. But given that certain cultures are more about "honor" and "loyalty" than others are, then why do they let this happen? I find it hard to believe that Chinamen are the only men capable of performing certain engineering duties. I doubt that anybody of American descent would be allowed to see top-secret Chinese data, 20-year citizen or not!

Unless the FBI is simply foaming at the mouth to create FUD and bungle this like they bungle everything else. It's more of a matter of industrial espionage rather than national security.

Re:Industrial espionage

[internerdj]

This is the problem with not properly promoting scientific education within American schools. If you can't get good scientists internally then you are putting your secure projects at risk.

Re:Industrial espionage

[eldavojohn]

I find it hard to believe that Chinamen ...

Also, Ethanol-fueled, 'Chinamen' is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian Americans, please.

Re:Industrial espionage

[elrous0]

This isn't a guy who built the railroads here. This is a guy who stole our secrets!

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, the chinaman is not the issue here!

Re:Industrial espionage

[Shakrai]

If you can't get good scientists internally then you are putting your secure projects at risk.

Umm, wasn't he a naturalized American citizen? Or do you mean to suggest that it's a risk to employ anyone who wasn't a natural-born citizen on secure projects? This traitorous asshole notwithstanding, most immigrants to this country are fiercely patriotic. You tend to have an appreciation for the United States if you immigrate here from a poorer/more oppressive country -- whereas those of us who were born here tend to take what we have for granted.

Re:Industrial espionage

[LWATCDR]

During WWII the US had issue with people of German decent sabotaging aircraft at Brewster aircraft. It didn't do much harm since Brewster made such bad aircraft to start with.
It think this like most things has to do with individuals and not race.
The real issue is that to many foreign born and raised people are coming to the US and then becoming engineers.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction, those of us who were born here and didn't take the responsibility ourselves to educate... OURSELVES!

I hardly take what I have for granted, but I read a lot about how we got to where we are today. You know, that thing called history that the people you are really referring to ignore completely and pretend it has no relevance to today.

I wouldn't let this one bad apple ruin the bushel. People seem to forget some of our greatest scientists EVER were defectors from our old enemies like, you know, Nazi Germany.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Heck our president elect Obama is the son of an immigrant.

He's probably as close as you could get to a possible Manchurian Candidate (one parent foreign, raised a large part of "formative" years on foreign soil), and yet I doubt you'll find anyone who would possibly think that way.

Re:Industrial espionage

[jollyreaper]

This is the problem with not properly promoting scientific education within American schools. If you can't get good scientists internally then you are putting your secure projects at risk.

It's a mixed bag. For every foreign-born turncoat you can find, I can find you one who is loyal to the US because he has a huge beef with whoever is running the show back home. Likewise, for every loyal native-born son of liberty I can show you a homegrown turncoat. Look at all the moles in the CIA, corn-fed Americans.

The moral of the story is that there's no rule of thumb to go by on who you can trust, you need to suspect everyone and not make theft any easier than it has to be. Most of these cases, nobody's sitting there giving the spy props because he pulled off some sort of James Bond stunt, it's usually hands slapped against faces as we realize the doors were left wide open, the only mystery is why even more secrets didn't walk out of there.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Hognoxious]

People seem to forget some of our greatest scientists EVER were defectors from our old enemies like, you know, Nazi Germany.

It's not exactly rocket science, as Werner Von Braun once said.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Shakrai]

He's probably as close as you could get to a possible Manchurian Candidate (one parent foreign, raised a large part of "formative" years on foreign soil), and yet I doubt you'll find anyone who would possibly think that way.

Unless you watch Fox News ;)

Re:Industrial espionage

[hung_himself]

Yup, native born white Americans are much less likely to sell out their country's interest for financial gain.

That's why only native-born (and until recently, white Americans) are eligible for the presidency so that this doesn't happen at the highest leve and that system has worked very well.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Toll_Free]

Some of our greatest scientists ever came AFTER WWII, not defectors from Germany.

Big difference, going to a side that literally whooped the FUCK out of your country, Vs. Defecting.

You're doing a HUGE disservice to the people who actually DID defect from oppressive regimes by trying to state the German scientists "defected".

They defected about as much as you or I did, it would appear. They where the spoils of war, and we did ALL we could to get to them to beat the "reds" (commies).

That's all part of that history stuff you talk of.

--Toll_Free

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I'm a scientist working in a non science job. I know many others doing the same. There simply aren't as many well-paying jobs in the sciences as there are people who graduate already with Ph.D.'s. Grants are hard to get. There's an 8% funding rate for them in my (prior) field.

The shortage of scientists is a myth. I'll agree more general students should get a much better science education than they do now, but we simply don't 'need' to import scientists.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Toll_Free]

Yeah, let's bow down to "Asian American" today.

Tomorrow it will be "Person of Asian Decent, probably of Chinese".

Chinamen only serves to convey a person of a certain area.

This "politically correct" crap has to end. You can't have a different "cultural" name every oh, half decade or so.

Should we call them "American's of Chinese Decent".

PuhLeeze. People getting irate over being called a Chinaman, when they come from China is lame. I can see it if he called them a "Chink", "Slant Eye" or something else.

Or should I get pissed when someone calls me an American Man?

Sheesh.

--Toll_Free

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

All that sounds nice, but I still think that there's a question of dual loyalty when you're dealing with someone foreign born. It's not like all ties to a country of birth disappear when someone becomes naturalized. Heck, read Jan Wong - born in Canada to Chinese parents, who felt enough pull to the old country when she was a youth to go back and live there for a few years. The vast majority of immigrants are loyal to the USA, but all have some degree of loyalty to another country. When that other country is your enemy, there may be a problem. :/

Re:Industrial espionage

[darkfire5252]

Or do you mean to suggest that it's a risk to employ anyone who wasn't a natural-born citizen on secure projects?

The USA does more than 'suggest' that: there's a NOFORN caveat for classified documents that means 'no one who is not a natural-born citizen may have access.'

Re:Industrial espionage

[yog]

Correct, someone is misusing "defect" here. The Soviets were more fearsome enemies than the Allies. The German scientists obviously concluded that helping the Allies in the post-WWII era would be better for Germany than helping the USSR (or doing nothing).

Indeed, history shows that Von Braun and the others did the right thing by siding with the U.S. Western Germany was protected by the American nuclear umbrella and allowed to prosper while its Soviet half withered.

Germany has never really recovered its pre-war aerospace prowess. At one time, they made the best fighter jets, the best rockets, and pretty much the best in every engineering and medical field, and after the war they just lost it, as though they were afraid to excel in these fields anymore.

As for the Chinese, I agree with a previous poster that this is more of a case of industrial espionage than actual treason. But, military and industry are intimately connected in China, perhaps more than in the U.S., and any rocket tech that they acquire will almost certainly be put to military use.

The Chinese are so hungry for technology and they are acquiring it so rapidly even as the U.S. declines in industrial and scientific ability that it seems only a matter of time before they basically take over as the world super power, while the U.S. degenerates into a post-industrial welfare state like France or Britain.

If China were a democracy with some real checks and balances, this might be OK, but unfortunately they have not evolved their system to that level yet. Even the U.S. makes mistakes, but the pendulum does swing and there is a sense of accountability that simply doesn't exist in China yet.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Austerity Empowers]

In order for it to work, you have to have loyalties somewhere else. If you are elected as the most powerful man in the world, I'm not sure what on earth would tempt you to "sell out", particularly to some dirt ball in the middle east. If you're crooked, you have all the power in the world to set up your own nice retirement...I think we can think of a few examples of that.

For a poor American scientist, there's a lot to be had back in China, or pretty much anywhere else, whether you are of chinese descent or not. We produce so few scientists and engineers, because the rewards are so pathetic for the capacity of work being done. Within our own country, various silly IP and anti-workforce laws protect investors from our knowledge and abilities moving to competitors easily (also forcing salaries down). But outside of our borders? Not so much. Reverse brain drain, and it's friend "espionage" are real problems. All we need is money, and we can recreate anything we've done before, and probably do it better.

In the 8 years I've been employed, this is the 3rd time I've heard of naturalized Chinese citizens sending back design data to the motherland. Having known personally one of the people later convicted, loyalty to "the party" had nothing to do with it. He was disgruntled at being laid off, believed in his product (but not his company), and was sending design files to his buddy back home so they could start their own business. Illegal, yes. Seditious? Not intentionally.

The saddest part is, that's how the US got its foot in the door. The British didn't really care for us all that much back then, and wanted us kept out of the loop, but had much the same problem with its industry as we do now. Enter a lowly engineer who had know how, but not $
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater)

It's a shame when history repeats itself, particularly since the US was founded on better ideals than China. What on earth do we stand to gain by promoting a country that, other than rabid capitalism (with a phony communist mouthpiece), is the anti-thesis to our way of life?

Re:Industrial espionage

[thebheffect]

I think you should watch The Big Lebowski (otherwise known as TBL) to understand the reference.

Re:Industrial espionage

[viridari]

Unless the FBI is simply foaming at the mouth to create FUD and bungle this like they bungle everything else. It's more of a matter of industrial espionage rather than national security.

Right, because none of this has any military use. You couldn't use it to make a better ICBM. Or to shoot satellites out of orbit. Who would be so silly to think that China would want to build such weapons?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Shakrai]

At one time, they made the best fighter jets, the best rockets, and pretty much the best in every engineering and medical field, and after the war they just lost it, as though they were afraid to excel in these fields anymore.

Says who? Other than a few applications (rocketry) the Allies were ahead of the Germans in technology. The German nuclear program never got off the ground. German submarine technology never kept up with Allied advances in anti-submarine warfare. German radar technology was behind that of the Allies -- as was their encryption and communications techniques.

We were even ahead of them doctrinally by the end of the war. The Blitzkerg was pretty impressive against countries lacking in modern armaments and tactics -- but it failed miserably at Kursk and in the Battle of the Bulge.

The Soviets were more fearsome enemies than the Allies. The German scientists obviously concluded that helping the Allies in the post-WWII era would be better for Germany than helping the USSR (or doing nothing).

You would have concluded that too if your choice was between being captured by the power that would treat you fairly well and the one that would ship you off to a forced-labor camp somewhere in Siberia. The Japanese made the same decision -- quite a few historians think that August Storm (the Soviet attack on Japan towards the end of the war) was a bigger factor in forcing them to surrender than the atomic bombs were.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinamen are the only men capable of performing certain

engineering duties. I doubt that anybody of American descent would be

"Chinamen?" I don't suppose you wax your mustache and lift oblong shaped weights while riding your unicycle to work?

Re:Industrial espionage

[OrangeTide]

That's because natural born Americans have a healthy respect for our federal prison system. Any American who betrays the US government must think prison rape is a great way to spend the next 20 years.

Of course we're bad at math too. So we're not qualified to work on our own secret engineering projects. And lack the internationally connections to sell secrets or pass along bribes. So we're only of limited use in these sorts of positions.

Re:Industrial espionage

[HangingChad]

The USA does more than 'suggest' that: there's a NOFORN caveat for classified documents...

Exactly right. And that even applies to access to sensitive areas. Foreign nationals get a different color badge, so everyone knows. Though I do notice that when it comes to top scientists, those rules seem to become a little more fluid.

Re:Industrial espionage

[OrangeTide]

I assumed he was trying to be intentionally rude rather than ignorant of the politically correct terms.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

I dislike stirring the pot but that's a very naive view of the attitudes of people immigrating to the United States. People more often than not immigrate here for economic benefit and opportunity. I can tell you this from experience.

Re:Industrial espionage

[HellYeahAutomaton]

If you aren't born here you shouldn't be allowed clearances. Being born somewhere else is a conflict of interest that represents far too much risk for secure projects.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

I absolutely agree. Moreover, we (as Americans) must emphasize not only an increased focus on promoting the sciences in public schools, we should also provide fiscal incentives for those individuals considering the pursuit of a career in science.

As things currently stand most intelligent Americans compare 4 years of rigorous courses followed by 5 to 6 years of studying, two of which consists of preparation for exams -- and living a life of poverty -- to 4 years of a lighter course load and 2 years in an MBA program, after which they can make upwards to $100k.

Should we be suppressed that after their cost-benefit analysis they choose not to go into the Sciences?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Von Braun wasn't exactly a defector. We captured him and told him we'd feed him to the Russians if he didn't play ball.

Re:Industrial espionage

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

This reminds me of a pretty egregious faux-pas in the character customization menus in the recent Fallout game. Basically, amid the extensive options available for tweaking your character, there was initially (right after gender) a "race" option. The options were something like:

1) Caucasian
2) Asian
3) African American

Coming from outside the US, this ranks as one of my top ten "WTF?" moments in video gaming. I knew that Americans were fairly insular, but to define an entire racial group as "XXXican American" struck me a particularly flagrant example of classic American ignorance. To wit; There are black people who have never been to America, whos ancestors have never been to America, and who probably never will go to America so long as they live. Many may not even know where America is. Similarly for "Asian Americans".

This kind of Americanization of even very basic things is quite frightening sometimes. It's scary to think just how much of the culture, laws, practices and viewpoints in my own country have their origins in a country with a very different mindset and world view. The politics of Middle America seems to end up in my living room whether I like it or not.

Re:Industrial espionage

[hairyfeet]

While it is true that most are fiercely patriotic,they are still a risk. For example: Does he stil have family/friends there? A favorite Aunt? A childhood sweetheart? If so,they are a risk. Let us be honest here,when most countries go out to steal another's secrets,playing nice usually doesn't enter the picture. Let us not forget this is the same country the sends a bill to a person's family for the bullets they used to shoot him. Not really known for playing nice over there. A simple message that your loved one was going to suffer torture if you don't help us should be enough to get most to do as they are told.

So while someone who has been in this country for 20+ years may have the flag flying in their yard and be all "Go USA!" that doesn't change the fact that it would still be easier to get them to give up secrets than a US born.

Re:Industrial espionage

[FingerSoup]

Well, it's NOT about the composition of the words, it's about the connotation. The Chinaman slur has the same connotation as if you went to China and everyone called you White-boy... It might technically be correct, but in most connotations it's derogatory. Just because it's less offensive than Chink, doesn't mean it's not offensive.

There's nothing wrong with saying someone is Chinese, or Chinese-American. Asian-American is less correct than that, Because Indians are South-Asian, thus still Asian, thus nondescript. And of course I mean REAL Indians, not native North Americans.

Re:Industrial espionage

[2gravey]

The USA does more than 'suggest' that: there's a NOFORN caveat for classified documents that means 'no one who is not a natural-born citizen may have access.'

Actually the NOFORN caveat does not pertain to anyone's birth country, it just means that the marked item is only releasable to those who currently hold US citizenship. That said, it is more difficult for recent immigrants to obtain clearance since their background is much harder to investigate.

Re:Industrial espionage

[mh1997]

Should we be suppressed that after their cost-benefit analysis they choose not to go into the Sciences?

Anybody that is doing a cost benefit analysis prior to attending college is probably going to end up in finances.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

I don't know, man. The name of that project sure indicates he was born for government work:

> the impossibly long name of 'Commercial Hydrogen Instrumentation Nomenclature
> Affairs Reacquisition Officer -- Onboard Liquid Supplies Using Special
> Distillation Resevoir of Oleaginous Oxygen Lysimetrification System'

He worked on that? Lol.

Zomg, look:

Commercial
Hydrogen
Instrumentation
Nomenclature
Affairs
Reacquisition
Officer --
Onboard
Liquid
Supplies
Using
Special
Distillation
Resevoir of
Oleaginous
Oxygen
Lysimetrification
System

Re:Industrial espionage

[Oktober Sunset]

I believe that currently the politically correct phrase is 'Person of Slanty-eyedness' not to be confused with 'slanty-eyed person' which is of course highly offensive.

Re:Industrial espionage

[novakyu]

This traitorous asshole notwithstanding, most immigrants to this country are fiercely patriotic.

As a physics graduate student who was recently naturalized, I completely agree with you, and I hope this traitor gets what he deserves---a death sentence.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Koreantoast]

Sorry, being born on American soil is hardly a good indicator of loyalty. After all, the most damaging of American spies in recent history weren't foreign immigrants from Asia but Caucasian, American-born males from the heartland. People like Robert Hanssen of Chicago or Aldrich Ames of River Falls, Wisconsin.

Re:Industrial espionage

[novakyu]

So while someone who has been in this country for 20+ years may have the flag flying in their yard and be all "Go USA!" that doesn't change the fact that it would still be easier to get them to give up secrets than a US born.

And that's because natural-born citizens never sell secrets to enemies, right?

I agree that having families in oppressive countries is a liability—but, surely the U.S. government can help remove those liabilities (by shortening their immigration process) so that they can hire a qualified man for the job?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

that's just... like... your...opinion, man.
watch "the big lebowski" and the whole "chinaman" issue will make much more sense to you (though the chinaman is no issue).

Re:Industrial espionage

[severoon]

I think you are confused about your perceptions of Chinese culture. They're no more about loyalty and honor than Americans or any other country...in fact, I would argue that they're less so because of the corruption that runs rampant through their government (and, as a result, the corruption they have to deal with in their everyday lives in China).

They are a culture concerned with saving face. This is a very different thing than what you have interpreted it to be. The Chinese culture is concerned with the appearance of honor and loyalty. The culture is only worried about these things insofar as others discover impropriety...as long as corruption continues undercover, or the parties involved have a reasonable chance it will never come to light, it continues unabated.

Think about it...is there any other possible explanation for the recent melamine scandal? In particular, consider the national cover-up that occurred for several months to keep it under wraps until after the Olympics had cleared out...all the while, babies continued suffering and dying from the poisoned milk products. This is something that simply would not have happened in the US.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Let us not forget this is the same country the sends a bill to a person's family for the bullets they used to shoot him.

Sure you're not thinking of the USSR? Either way, I've yet to see any hard evidence that $OPPRESSIVESTATE bills families for the bullets of those executed.

Re:Industrial espionage

[smellsofbikes]

Not only him: more than one third of American Nobel Prize winners are immigrants. Many of our best and brightest, and, as people who have worked in agriculture and construction can tell you, many of the hardest-working and most dedicated, are immigrants.

Re:Industrial espionage

[sorak]

I think it is funny how irate people get over political correctness, without realizing the irony of it all.

If someone wrote a series of books about a guy who used the nickname "toll_free" and molested children, you would have the right to assume a new nickname. No one would be screaming about how unfair it is, and you must be remembered for all eternity as "toll_free", because we do not want to learn a new name.

But, after decades of asian-americans being stereotyped and slighted, they try to undo the harm caused by these negative stereotypes. So, Asian-American children are taught that they define themselves, not the racists who lived here a century ago.

Forty years from now, I may have to learn a new word, and occasionally, I say Chinese when that may not be the appropriate word, but is that the extent of the "harm" done to me?

Re:Industrial espionage

[sledge_hmmer]

Toll_Free - I think you need some clarification of GP's statement:

GP's Joke -> ~~~~~
Your Head -> O

Watch The Big Lebowski when you get a chance.

Re:Industrial espionage

[SBFCOblivion]

Um...isn't this the part where someone says "Whoosh"?

Re:Industrial espionage

[ObiWonKanblomi]

People seem to forget some of our greatest scientists EVER were defectors from our old enemies like, you know, Nazi Germany.

I think many here are assuming that the parent was talking about those rocket scientists who came to the US after WW2. Instead, I think the parent is implying those Jewish scientists who fled Nazi Germany and helped develop the manhattan project.

With that said, I think the parent is overlooking the fact that once you had a big bomb that can go boom, no plane was around until the B 29 Superfortress which was able to carry such a heavy bomb for that long of a distance. That was not developed by the somewhat overrated "immigrant minds". This was developed by many great hardworking american minds powered by the good ol' american ingenuity.

While it's important to value immigrant minds and their contributions to this country, it's disappointing we gradually are ignoring the accomplishments of our home-bred minds.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Lorkki]

I think it is funny how irate people get over political correctness, without realizing the irony of it all.

Yeah, with all these negative reactions I think we need to devise a new, less direct term for it to keep people from taking offense.

Re:Industrial espionage

[vux984]

Or should I get pissed when someone calls me an American Man?

The equivalent to "American Man" would be "Chinese Man", not "Chinaman".

If he'd been called a Chinese Man instead of Chinaman no one would have commented.

A closer equivalent to "Chinaman" would be "Yankee", which is largely used elsewhere in the world to mean 'American', and in most (though not all) places IS at least mildly derogatory.

Further, as others have pointed out the reference the big lebowski...where the Dude's reference to a Chinaman is corrected in the same manner. "Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please."

And in response the Dude defends using the word Chinaman because he does mean to offend... "This isn't a guy who built the railroads... he peed on my rug"

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

So lots of really smart people want to COME TO the US. It says something about this place that many like to denigrate.

Re:Industrial espionage

[cyn1c77]

Eh, it's nothing new. But given that certain cultures are more about "honor" and "loyalty" than others are, then why do they let this happen? I find it hard to believe that Chinamen are the only men capable of performing certain engineering duties.

With America's legal framework it is difficult to exclude naturalized citizens from sensitive security positions. Also remember that for every naturalized citizen who is a traitor, there are hundreds more who aren't. Heck, most of the scientists who developed the atomic bomb were foreign nationals.

China may have just as many security breeches... the thing is China's government is better able to deal with such security issues. They just shoot the traitor and never tell anyone.

I doubt that anybody of American descent would be allowed to see top-secret Chinese data, 20-year citizen or not!

I doubt many people of American decent would consider actually moving to China... Also, what would China show them? The Chinese version of the stolen American data? Except for their espionage, it's not like they are doing actually anything better... they just have the Chinese copy. It's hard to innovate when you are busy reverse engineering every other nation's work.

Re:Industrial espionage

[ThreeE]

Great. So who is going to be in charge of deciding what degrees are worthy of your proposed "fiscal incentives?" No doubt some government agency.

I'll stick with the current system: the free market.

I don't know why central planning is in such vogue these days. Sure, people will point to the financial crisis -- but that was caused by government involvement not the free market... Do we really need another lesson in the bankruptcy of central planning?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Sure. Ahuh. This is why I enjoy reading (if not only for the sake of digging up factoids like this for people like you) history. Here are just two people that changed the world forever:

Albert Einstein defected to the US in 1932.

Enrico Fermi defected to the US in 1938.

Both defected before the end of WW2, and both had a profound and lasting impact on our understanding of physics.

Had neither of them defected, Germany (or another Axis power) may have developed nuclear energy/weapons, and Japan may have taken over China completely.

Re:Industrial espionage

[sorak]

Well, you'd get no complaint from me. I assume you're joking, and would think it silly if you were serious, but the point is that some people are very personally offended that x wants to be called y.

If someone else gets slighted, that doesn't help anybody. When a minority is referred to using a demeaning name, white people don't win a prize. So why should we care?

Re:Industrial espionage

[ThreeE]

I didn't realize there was an "outside the US."

When will you be applying for statehood? I'm not sure we can fit another star on the flag.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

bullshit. NOFORN means not for release to foreign nationals. big difference.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite true. Von Braun and his associates knew the war was lost and realized they basically had a choice between being captured by the Russians or being captured by the Allies. They set out looking for the latter to surrender to.

I'm not sure I'd call it a defection, however. Nazi Germany was crumbling at the time. There wasn't really anything left to defect from.

Re:Industrial espionage

[bitrex]

This reminds me of a pretty egregious faux-pas in the character customization menus in the recent Fallout game. Basically, amid the extensive options available for tweaking your character, there was initially (right after gender) a "race" option. The options were something like:

1) Caucasian 2) Asian 3) African American

Coming from outside the US, this ranks as one of my top ten "WTF?" moments in video gaming. I knew that Americans were fairly insular, but to define an entire racial group as "XXXican American" struck me a particularly flagrant example of classic American ignorance. To wit; There are black people who have never been to America, whos ancestors have never been to America, and who probably never will go to America so long as they live. Many may not even know where America is. Similarly for "Asian Americans".

The game takes place in the former United States. If you choose your character in the game to be of African descent, and lived in America in a vault for his whole life, then he is an African American. He wasn't just flown in from Kenya. I'd argue that "Caucasian" is the most nonsensical of those options and is mainly a U.S. term now, but of course you're not complaining about that one.

This kind of Americanization of even very basic things is quite frightening sometimes. It's scary to think just how much of the culture, laws, practices and viewpoints in my own country have their origins in a country with a very different mindset and world view.

I was completely outraged to discover that my speedometer is marked in kilometers as well as miles. The U.S. bill of rights was based on the Magna Carta! The manual to my computer power supply was poorly translated! Can you believe it.

It's fantastic how the slightest, somehow-taken-to-be-somehow-biased-against-somebody statement or gesture on the part of a US citizen, organization, or company is a fine opportunity to gather the torches and pitchforks and rail against American ignorance, but when done by basically anyone else it's to be excused as being a cultural thing and of no consequence. I doubt the French or Japanese spend a lot of time sitting around debating if something is going to somehow offend Americans. This "Middle America" you speak of has probably gotten tired of trying to figure out what offends the delicate sensibilities of the rest of the world, which changes approximately every five minutes, and realizes that no matter what they do they're going to be called ignorant Americans forever.

The politics of Middle America seems to end up in my living room whether I like it or not.

It's probably not a good idea to purchase games that are set in America produced by an American company, then. Were you so outraged that you refused to play it?

Re:Industrial espionage

[LaskoVortex]

We produce so few scientists and engineers, because the rewards are so pathetic for the capacity of work being done.

We produce an ample supply of scientists given appropriate compensation. As we import more scientists from other countries, wages go down because supply goes up. This will drive Americans out of science and into more lucrative careers. A scientist used to expect to get a faculty position at about 28 to 30 in this country. Now the average is about 38. As we import more scientists, this number will only go up because the imported labor makes it easier to have a larger worker to PI ratio and a larger pool of workers translates into greater and more protracted competition for PI positions.

So what does this mean to all of the kids out there trying to choose a major? Well, as a public service, I will tell them: STAY THE FUCK OUT OF SCIENCE UNLESS YOU KNOW FOR GODDAMN SURE THAT YOU WILL BE PERFECTLY HAPPY RUNNING EXPERIMENTS FOR SOMEONE ELSE FOR MUCH OF YOUR LIFE.

The dream of having a PI position before you turn gray died in the '80s.

Re:Industrial espionage

[genner]

should I get pissed when someone calls me an American Man?

Yes if we have use the terms Asian American and African American I demmand to be called an American American.

Re:Industrial espionage

[penguin_dance]

Umm, wasn't he a naturalized American citizen? Or do you mean to suggest that it's a risk to employ anyone who wasn't a natural-born citizen on secure projects?

Well, I know that if you went into the military, there are certain fields you cannot get into if you are naturalized vs. American-born. I knew a guy, born in Germany and later his mother remarried an American, who also adopted him. Lived most of his life in the US. Yet he couldn't get into an electronics-based field in the military because he was naturalized vs. American-born. Things may have changed, but it wasn't that long ago. However, maybe it's time some of these high-security risk positions do the same, fair or not. Yes, obviously, some natural-born Americans would sell their own mother. But you are running a higher risk that a naturalized citizen could be subject to coercion, threats or blackmail from his native country--especially if he/she has relatives back there.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Golddess]

That's.. almost scary if it wasn't intentional. But I'm sure someone else could explain why such a coincidence is really more common than I would think.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Sinbios]

It's a shame when history repeats itself, particularly since the US was founded on better ideals than China.

Is "freedom and liberty for all!" really better ideals than "wealth and security for all!"? I think they both just cater to different value systems and happened to be convenient for rabble-rousing at the time.

Re:Industrial espionage

[dhall]

I think affixing American would be a gross exaggeration.

And most Asians might want to differentiate themselves from the Chinese.

Just out of curiousity, how many cases have there been of selling secrets to the Chinese in the last 20 years, vs. Koreans or Japanese?

Chinese have been replacing Koreans within the D.C. area.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I would get pissed off at being called Chinaman, when I'm from Canada. I look Chinese, so you can call me that, but I'm not from China.

This is the exactly the same as if someone would call me Americanman, since I'm really Canadianman.

And that is why Chinaman is a slur. Might as well call all white people Europeman. Or all people with dark skin Africaman.

So no, tomorrow, it will probably be, "Chinese."

Can you at least do that?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

"quite a few historians think that August Storm (the Soviet attack on Japan towards the end of the war) was a bigger factor in forcing them to surrender than the atomic bombs were."

Doubtful, since USSR didn't fly squadrons of B52s over Japan to really bring it home to them that they were done for.

If I remember my history lessons accurately: Emperor Hirohito, during the signing of Japan's surrender, broke down in tears at the sight of the sun being blocked out by a sky full of B52s.

I also remember we forced him to tell his people that he was not God.

I would argue the whole Pacific Theater and our use of the most powerful weapon in human history on them, is what made Japan lose more than anything else.

Re:Industrial espionage

[polyomninym]

If coincidence were a sandwich, we'd all be at Subway right now. Now those are some serious acrostics, my friend. Major Kudos!

Re:Industrial espionage

[MikeBabcock]

The entire country is founded on immigration obviously, aside from the natives who got mostly wiped out that is.

Believing immigration is bad for America is just navel gazing stupidity. There are no 20th generation American Citizens, from long lines of American ancestry. There are however thousands of years of Chinese dynastic and other histories.

To cut off immigration is to say "we have enough people now" since everyone else is recently immigrated too (from a global historical perspective). There is no otherwise functional difference between the immigrant and the naturally born citizen.

Who bombed the FBI building in Oklahoma after all? A chinaman? Maybe a Russian spy? Yeah.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

oh snap!

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. The USA has many flaws, mostly relating to a disastrous foreign policy and a few civil liberties issues, but they don't alter the indisputable fact that it's a good place for smart people to live; it has some of the world's best universities, it has plenty of funding available, it has a fairly liberal culture that encourages independent thought, it has a constitution that guarantees complete freedom of publication, and it has a history of welcoming and appreciating smart people from all backgrounds.

And that's one of the reasons why the USA has more or less dominated the world for the last century.

Which is why Americans must be careful not to let this case turn them against immigrants. If America wants to stay ahead of China, it must make sure the brain drain continues in its favor. If all the smartest Chinese scientists want to come and work in America, then America has more smart folk and China has fewer. Clearly more safeguards are needed to detect cases like this one sooner, but America cannot afford to start blocking Chinese participation in American science.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't feed the troll. He's a disgruntled, hamster-penis (if that?!) loser with a yellow fetish, but he got turned down too many times by that "China Doll" at the club.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

I deduce that you are a white American, probably of European descent, in which case the analogous term would be European American. It's also possible that you are of Native American descent, in which case the analogous term is (you guessed it!) Native American.

"American American" is either meaningless (because it must apply equally to all Americans), or racist (because it implies that one variety of American is more valid than all others).

Re:Industrial espionage

[msromike]

Obvious troll but since it is anti-American it gets modded 4+ insightful. There is no lack of scientific talent in the US. Maybe you are opposed to the disparity between the least and most educated, but that is not what you wrote.

Who is to say that having everyone educated to higher mean is better than having a broader range of education level in the populous? Do you really think everyone needs the same level of education? Isn't it a waste to train a future doctor, lawyer, scientist, auto mechanic, factory worker, and beautician to the same standard in high school?

High school education should be stopped in the 10th grade. Vocational related training, and college prep, and other programs based on the students goals could be a replacement during the last two years. There is more than one way to help education in the US and throwing tax dollars at the problem obviously isn't the answer.

The reason higher education is so expensive is tat there is an educational bubble in the country just like the housing bubble. They were both created by the same politicians by making money available at unsupportable and artificially low interest rates. Whenever you pump money into a system without a core change in demand the price will inflate.

Re:Industrial espionage

[smellsofbikes]

I agree entirely with you, but would like to quibble on one minor point. The first guy to bear my last name on North American soil got here 15 generations ago, while two of my grandparents escaped from pre-WWII Germany, so I'm fairly typical. But I dated a lovely woman a few years back whose ancestors were all Cherokee or Paiute, as far as she knew, so while they obviously weren't American citizens back 8000 years ago, they have a lot, a whole, whole lot, to say about what happens to the neighborhood when you let people immigrate. (Mostly joking, of course.)

The other thing that occurs to me, looking around where I work, is that there *is* somewhat of a difference between immigrants and naturally born citizens: all our naturalized or work visa employees have PhD's where I work, and none of our natural-born citizens do.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Shakrai]

Doubtful, since USSR didn't fly squadrons of B52s over Japan to really bring it home to them that they were done for.

B-52s eh?

If I remember my history lessons accurately: Emperor Hirohito, during the signing of Japan's surrender, broke down in tears at the sight of the sun being blocked out by a sky full of B52s.

That's funny, because from what I recall of my history lessons Hirohito wasn't present during the signing of the surrender document.

I would argue the whole Pacific Theater and our use of the most powerful weapon in human history on them, is what made Japan lose more than anything else.

What made them lose was the arrogance of taking on a power that had many times their GDP and industry. What made them surrender is a point still debated by historians. It's likely that was a combination of many factors.

It's indisputable though that the entry of the Soviets into the war was a major shock to the Japanese leadership -- in less than two weeks the Soviets smashed the bulk of the Japanese army in Manchuria, taking over half a million prisoners in the process. The scale of August Storm and the size of the forces involved dwarfs any of the ground engagements that the Allies fought with the Japanese. The Soviets also seized the Kuril Islands and were in a position to launch an invasion of Hokkaido -- which was practically undefended as the bulk of the Japanese forces had been located in the South to oppose the eventual American/British landings.

Now ask yourself if you had to choose between being under Soviet occupation or American occupation -- which would you go with?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

He stated that foreign-born nationals may have more reasons to turn traitor than natural-born citizens, even if they don't want to, if they have family that may be threatened in their original nation.

That's not a value judgement. Your long-winded rant about prejudice is unwarranted.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is the third time you've heard of "naturalized Chinese citizens sending back design data to the motherland" then you haven't been paying attention.

Re:Industrial espionage

[oddfox]

Congratulations on getting your tripe modded up when it ignores the fact that the Fallout 3 game setting takes place in the former capital wastes where mutants and humans from the ashes of America are vying for control. We're talking about your character who is a Vault-dweller for crying out loud. When is he supposed to have immigrated from any other place in post-apocalyptia? Take your frothing at the mouth elsewhere, where you actually have a leg to stand on.

Re:Industrial espionage

[hairyfeet]

Thank you. This has NOTHING to do with the color of someone's skin. Got that? Nothing at all. This is simple common sense. Why do you think it is that you never hear of an American leaking secrets when it comes to the new Chinese Ballistic subs? Because they don't let Americans work on the damned subs,that's why. ANY country can use this tactic. And considering the fact that this knowledge can save a foreign power years worth of research and billions,even trillions of dollars by giving them the fast track and removing potential dead ends and wasted failures I bet we will see underhanded tactics by foreign powers on ALL sides more and more often.

And make NO mistake. Just Because China and India and Pakistan are happy to trade with us doesn't mean those in their military wouldn't be happy to do whatever it takes to get the knowledge they believe the survival of their country depends on. I would expect no less from our own military. Which is why I think we should follow their example and have only our own people working on our highly classified military programs. it has nothing to do with racism,anymore than the Chinese and Indians are being racist when they insist on Chinese and Indians for their own highly classified military programs. It is simply common sense.

And as to how I would stand up if my family was threatened with torture? Not very well. Which is why I don't expect the PRC to hire me to work on their new subs. Because all it would take is a message from the US "Send us the plans or your family goes to Gitmo" and I would screw them over. Which is a lot harder to pull off if all my family lives in Beijing. Again,common sense. I am sorry if that hurts your feelings,but the countries I have mentioned above has those kinds of rules for a reason. While you can never get rid of all risks,and as you say someone can be a "rat" no matter where they are born. But when you are talking about something as dangerous and highly coveted as state secrets there simply isn't a point in taking any unnecessary risks. Sorry.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Falconhell]

Never heard of the Avro Lancaster?

  It carried the Barnes Wallace designed 10 ton Grand Slam concrete penetrating bomb.

The B29 was powered by some rather unreliable engines too.

It aint rocket science to design a bigger wing with more engines either you know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Lancaster

Re:Industrial espionage

[LifesABeach]

OK, "Kwai Chang" was con'ed into selling the secret that a container can hold gas, "Bad Boy!"; got it. (As a side note, if some Chinese factory offered to sell the same container to the U.S., at a lower cost than could be done in the U.S. one would have to love the irony.) I just have one question, "Where the hell does this guy work, and WHAT does he do there that HE can bribe 'Chinese officials to the tune of some 189,300 dollars'? That's the job for me!

P.S.

I think that the Chinese can figure out how to put gas in a container without having to steal the infromation from someone else, they just have to "nut it up" a little bit.

Re:Industrial espionage

[ObiWonKanblomi]

Oh I heard of the Lancaster. A couple problems with the Lancaster being the choice to drop a bomb of that weight and size:

1. The Lancaster wouldn't have had big enough doors to drop the bomb.
2. Only with a minimal load would the Lancaster been able to travel a comparable distance. This was important as the Enola Gay (for example) needed to travel a very long distance to drop the bomb.

I think you raise good points, but you're avoiding my point. I'll be more than happy to repeat it again:

It may have taken some immigrant geniuses to help make the bomb boom really big, but you still needed some good minds to help design something capable of dropping something of that type of payload after flying a long distance.

Even with your point on the Lancaster, I'm sure most of it was designed by native-born Brits, so perhaps we are actually in some form of agreement?

Re:Industrial espionage

[krunk4ever]

So "CHINA ROOLS US DROOLS"?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Falconhell]

Designing a larger aircraft is very simple, and the principles were well known at the time.

Spec from Wikipedia

Lancaster;

Bombs: Maximum: 22,000 lb (10,000 kg)

B29

Bombs: 20,000 lb (9,000 kg) standard loadout
could be modified for more with external mounting.

I think you will find that the bomb bay doors on a lanc were easily big enough to fit either of the nukes, as they fitted the 10 ton grand slam a bomb TWICE as heavy as either of the nukes(4000kg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_bomb.

In fact no WW2 US bomber in its standard form could carry as high a load as the Lanc.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Falconhell]

What had a left arm wrist spinner got to do with this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-arm_unorthodox_spin

(-:

Re:Industrial espionage

[Falconhell]

I didn't realize there was an "outside the US."

-1 redundant, everyone knows that already!

Re:Industrial espionage

[zunicron]

Call me naive, but I believe in the potential of this country as a possible force of good in the world (recent events notwithstanding).

You are naive.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Bob The Cowboy]

*whoosh*

Re:Industrial espionage

[Austerity Empowers]

That's completely ridiculous, and any westerner, American or not, should get angry.

Freedom and liberty once gained, are real and comparatively easy to protect. On the other hand, if you do not have them, they're really hard to get. Yet people at all levels of society are willing to die for them, repeatedly, across generations. I cite any of the magna carta, various revolutions, abolishment of slavery, suffrage, and eventually black civil rights as just a few examples of obstacles the US (and western world in general) has fought on its way to get where it is now. I can't believe anyone out there who opened a history textbook would believe otherwise.

Wealth for all, in itself, is self contradictory. Wealth is a relative term. One can be wealthy only compared to another. If a few are wealthy and a few are not, it follows, no one is secure. This is also pretty well covered in history.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Sinbios]

Freedom and liberty once gained, are real and comparatively easy to protect. On the other hand, if you do not have them, they're really hard to get. Yet people at all levels of society are willing to die for them, repeatedly, across generations. I cite any of the magna carta, various revolutions, abolishment of slavery, suffrage, and eventually black civil rights as just a few examples of obstacles the US (and western world in general) has fought on its way to get where it is now.

Wealth and security once gained, are real and comparatively easy to protect. On the other hand, if you do not have them, they're really hard to get. Yet people at all levels of society are willing to die for them, repeatedly, across generations. I cite "the rich get richer".

I think you're under the impression that I'm knocking freedom and liberty. I'm not. I'm criticizing your claim that those are better than communism, in terms of their merit as ideals.

Wealth for all, in itself, is self contradictory. Wealth is a relative term. One can be wealthy only compared to another. If a few are wealthy and a few are not, it follows, no one is secure. This is also pretty well covered in history.

I think you need to re-examine the communist manifesto. Wealth doesn't necessarily mean that someone is wealthier than somebody else. The point of communism is everyone should be equally wealthy.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

It is entirely intentional, because it was written by the GP. If you look back at the summary, you'll notice that's not Shu's title.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, I'll remember to reserve my usage of lazy-minded racial epithets to suitable occasions. Oh boy, I can't wait for a black man to cut me off on the road so I can let him know what I REALLY think of those of his kind.

Moderators (who am I kidding, this comment will never be read by anyone): Think REAL carefully before modding me down and preserving the parent post's upmod.

Re:Industrial espionage

[alecwood]

People seem to forget some of our greatest scientists EVER were defectors from our old enemies like, you know, Nazi Germany.

Correction, if I remember correctly, they were captured Nazis, not defectors, many were wanted war criminals too, but they were kept hidden because it was more expedient to use their information than hand them over to the Nuremberg trials.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Golddess]

he illegally exported a document with the impossibly long name of 'Commercial Information, Technical Proposal and Budgetary Officer â" Design, Supply, Engineering, Fabrication, Testing & Commissioning of 100m3 Liquid Hydrogen Tank and Various Special Cryogenic Pumps, Valves, Filters and Instruments.'

Hmm, so it is different. I was banking on GP being honest, given it was right in TFS, so didn't bother to scroll up and confirm.

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe you're just closed-minded? Doesn't take a lot to believe in 'potential.'

Re:Industrial espionage

[elrous0]

Whoosh!

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not whoosh. I've seen the damn movie, so you can stop making annoying sounds.

Your upmod (at least the most recent one) is +1 Insightful, not +1 Funny. Think about that. To what exactly did you think I was directing moderator attention, anyway?

Re:Industrial espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry. Governments don't like naive people like you to be their spies. I mean government from either side.

Outsourcing

[rodrigoandrade]

Maybe outsourcing the US military to China wouldn't be a bad thing after all.

Re:Outsourcing

[Thanshin]

Naa, for rocket science I'd outsource to India.

A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a few years ago, this would be called 'TREASON' and possible punishment could be death, but more likely life imprisonment.

What say he goes free...

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[MightyYar]

Meh, it's not like rockets can be weaponized or anything.

On a more serious not, this stuff is all for liquid hydrogen rockets - that wouldn't make a very effective weapon... it does a fine job in the Space Shuttle main engine, but keeping rockets that run on liquid hydrogen flight-ready is pretty expensive. AFAIK, most of the US military rockets are solid fuel.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed wholeheartedly. Treason is a very appropriate designation here, IMHO.

He is a US citizen who used that privilege to gain access to secure information and willfully sold us out! His actions profoundly harmed our national interests, diminished our technological advantages over our adversaries, caused immeasurable economic harm, and may very well cost the lives of countless numbers of our fellow countrymen in future conflicts!!! Furthermore, in this case there is EVERY reason to believe that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing!

THIS IS TREASON, and HAPPENS WAY TOO OFTEN with little real consequence. EVERY American should be pissed as hell about this, and (in my opinion) a very public example needs to be made EVERY time something like this happens.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

Right.

Its not like we'd have any reason to worry about China's escalating space program.

I think we should start adopting the Eridani Edict as soon as possible.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree completely and think we really need to return to the days of the death penalty for traitors.

Cook a few and see if others don't start thinking twice about monetary gain or helping the motherland being worth their life.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[lysergic.acid]

well, even if they are stealing rocket technology from the West, they're just getting us back.

the Chinese were the first to invent rockets, which were later stolen by the Mongols, who then spread it to the Arabs, who eventually spread it to the West. i guess that makes us even now.

most scientific & technological advancements are built on top of the work done by previous scientists/inventors/engineers. and the history of human technological/scientific progress is essentially the story of the spread of knowledge through cultural exchange. the sharing of knowledge and technology between cultures has always been a major stimulus for technological & scientific innovation. that's why non-weapons-related technology export restrictions are kinda silly. no developed nation can say that their technological & scientific achievements are the sole work of their nation, and their nation alone. many IP laws are similarly silly as such jealous guarding of knowledge, or "intellectual property," is not only petty but counter-productive to societal progress.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[MightyYar]

Your first link is from how they destroyed a satellite and your second is how they plan to build a space station. Maybe I'm missing something?

The last two are science fiction, so I'm not sure where you are going with that either.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also easier to destroy liquid-fueled rockets using an ICBM interceptor weapons (like the Boeing YAL-1 airborne Laser US is developing), because they have a thinner outer shell that's easier to heat up to a point of breaking.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

"well, even if they are stealing rocket technology from the West, they're just getting us back [wikipedia.org].

the Chinese were the first to invent rockets, which were later stolen by the Mongols, who then spread it to the Arabs, who eventually spread it to the West. i guess that makes us even now."

The stupidity of this line of "reasoning" makes me question whether you're mentally retarded or completely brain dead.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a few years ago, this would be called 'TREASON' and possible punishment could be death, but more likely life imprisonment.

What say he goes free...

Hang his chinck ass

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[novakyu]

Cook a few and see if others don't start thinking twice about monetary gain or helping the motherland being worth their life.

The chair is probably too benign a form of capital punishment for this kind of crime (the only worse crime than this would have been the crime against the humanity itself). Surely there is something that is much more painful and more likely to make would-be traitors cringe than a little bit of electricity?

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[GrumblyStuff]

...caused immeasurable economic harm...

Would that be immeasurably small or immeasurably huge?

Anyway, about that bit of American's needing to be piss- ooh, American Idol is on. brb

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Anonymous Coward]

If this traitorous citizen lived in China and handed over Chinese secrets to a foreign government he'd end his life being held down on his knees by a soldier on either side of him as he was shot in the back of the head with an assault rifle.

Takes pretty much the entire top half of the head off from the ears up.

That's how the Chinese would handle a case such as this.

"FUCK the nation?"

FUCK YOU buddy.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[karlwilson]

Yeah, let's give them a copy of the F-22 and see how they can improve it. Maybe they have a few tips for us?

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[dhall]

Meh, it's not like rockets can be weaponized or anything.

On a more serious not, this stuff is all for liquid hydrogen rockets - that wouldn't make a very effective weapon... it does a fine job in the Space Shuttle main engine, but keeping rockets that run on liquid hydrogen flight-ready is pretty expensive. AFAIK, most of the US military rockets are solid fuel.

It's not just the delivery method, but the delivery reliability that is also important. Surprisingly after all this time we still have one of the most reliable methods to delivery expensive equipment into orbit.

I think in these trying economic times where money can come into play far more often than loyality, this problem will become worse.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Sinbios]

But information wants to be freeeeeee! :(

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[Adambomb]

THIS IS TREASON, and HAPPENS WAY TOO OFTEN with little real consequence. EVERY American should be pissed as hell about this, and (in my opinion) a very public example needs to be made EVERY time something like this happens.

While i agree with your points theres one problem.

It's too late. China already owns your manufacturing infrastructure through supply cost efficiency, your raw materials processing through process cost efficiency, and a lot of your politicians through good old fashioned bribery. No one will have the guts to try to hardball this guy. Although it would definitely hurt chinas economy to embargo the us, it would DESTROY the us economy. It's an ace in the hole that definitely has no counter that i can think of. Sadly, pissing off china is one of the most suicidal things america as a nation could do at the moment even when they're in the right about it.

If this guy gets anything beyond a fine and/or a short white collar prison term i'd be amazed.

Re:A crime called 'Treason'.

[will_die]

In the US for it to be considered treason requires that we be at war with the country you helped or the country you helped is directly tied to one we have declared war against.

Only 10 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

What happened to treason?

Re:Only 10 years?

[neumayr]

That's easy. Quoting Wikipedia quoting someone else:
Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]."
As relations between China and the US make it seem very unlikely they're about to go to war or overthrow each other's government, that guy is not a traitor. Just an industrial spy.

Re:Only 10 years?

[maxume]

It's easy enough to construe the loss of a technological advantage as a serious injury.

Re:Only 10 years?

[neumayr]

Really? I don't see how. You'd still have to prove there's some practically exploitable breach in nation security because of that loss.
Where does something stop being industrial espionage and start being treason? I'd imagine it has something to do with its impact on national security..

Re:Only 10 years?

[maxume]

Strategic assessment X says that a technical advantage of Q is necessary for national security. The information disclosed lowers the current technical advantage below that threshold, triggering spending, which is essentially harm.

Re:Only 10 years?

[neumayr]

Yes, if you want to sentence him as a traitor, that would be a way. Wouldn't mean he really is a traitor, and the Chinese, or any country, would not look favourably on such an action.
This isn't the cold war, where the US might have been able to pull off stuff like that, nor is he a member of the current public enemy no 1, i.e. a terrorist.
Reading further in that Wikipedia article, it seems the US actually has treason defined in its constitution. That definition is even more limited than the one from Oran's Dictionary of the Law, "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Individuals can't but corporations can?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how many corporations , universities and other organizations routinely share and profit from the global movement of information? When was the last time you saw a multinational corporation become the target for these types of investigations?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the guy, personally, I just think all this secrecy is stupid, useless and evil.

Re:Individuals can't but corporations can?

[IndustrialComplex]

Individuals certainly can, but they have to go through the export controls of the US state Department and when it comes to 'weapons', the DHS.

But lets not kid ourselves here, this isn't even close to the grey area. This guy sold missile/rocket technology to a foreign government, China no less.

I work for one of these large multinational corporations, and quite often deal with technology transfers between foreign entities and governments. Let me tell you the reason you don't hear about much in the way of investigations is because we are VERY cautious to ensure that trade agreements are in place before any conversations start. Not only that, but we are regularly trained to know what we can, and can not send overseas. We are also audited on a regular basis (and rightfully so) both internally and by the government.

I had to kick a guy out of one of my presentations once because I got a phone call that he was a dual Polish/Canadian citizen. We could export to Canada, we could export to Poland, but there were provisions that no dual citizens were allowed.

It is taken very seriously. While it is fun to poke at these multinational corporations, even the presidents and VPs of these companies are regular people who understand that you do NOT export anything without the blessing of the State Dept, Homeland Security, or one of the other associated agencies.

Re:Individuals can't but corporations can?

[MozeeToby]

First, companies don't export things illegally often because it gets noticed very quickly and the fines and punishments are quite severe. Secondly, companies (even large ones) do get investigated and fined when they illegally export technology. Just last year ITT Corporation was fined $100 million for exporting night vision goggles to China.

Investigations of large corporations are actually pretty routine, the most common punishment being that the company or department is banned from bidding on government projects for a year or two. That might not seem like much of a punishment, but it can destroy the cash flow of a large defense contractor.

Of course...

[runderwo]

this isn't a whole lot different from being a lobbyist for a foreign government and advisor to a presidential campaign at the same time. Except, that's apparently legal.

Re:Of course...

[Shakrai]

this isn't a whole lot different from being a lobbyist for a foreign government

A lobbyist for a foreign Government lobbies on behalf of that Government. A spy gives that Government classified information. No difference at all......

Re:Of course...

[runderwo]

What is the purpose of giving a foreign government classified information? How is this purpose different from the purpose of a lobbyist?

Re:Of course...

[Shakrai]

How is this purpose different from the purpose of a lobbyist?

Because there's a bit of a difference between lobbying for a foreign Government to gain something through our political process and stealing information to give to that Government.

Just think logically about the comparison that you are trying to make. You are comparing the act of advocating for a foreign Government to the act of stealing for that Government.

I'm not a big fan of people who lobby for foreign Governments but I think the comparison between that and espionage is far-fetched.

Re:Of course...

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is that the serious crime they've committed involved skipping the step of making large payoffs to politicians and their buddies. That gives Americans so much clout and moral high ground in their complaints about corruption in other countries' bureaucratic and political institutions.

In Capitalist China...

[Massacrifice]

In Capitalist China, Rocket Fires You!

hmmm.

[apodyopsis]

I would say that china has many good research engineers to get new technology - but from my time working there I would say that industrial espionage and reverse engineering are perfectly acceptable methods to get new technology over there. I have seen new chips turn up that once decapped and FIB'd were seen to be *exact* copies of designs from the firm I worked for, complete with the same faults - but that's what you get for using a Chinese fab.

As always I am interested in this from a general viewpoint - I mean how many hours R&D is worth the hassle of paying for? obviously if something has been developed for many years and represents significant innovation it would be worthwhile, but they seem to be after anything.

It reminds me of the Tupelov 144 and Bakinor shuttle - both of which were uncannily close to planes developed elsewhere...

Re:hmmm.

[frieko]

Karma whoring here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu-144
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_(spacecraft)
Interesting reads both. As I understand it the aerodynamic shapes were copied from photos, but the guts were completely different.

Re:hmmm.

[Shakrai]

Thank Nixon. Letting China nurse off our teat has done nothing but show them how to build they're own teat. Are they greatful? No. Now they're stealing the "Mother's Milk" we're loading the teat with. Fuck China!

Eh, it's all part of the balancing game of geopolitics. China was a counterweight to the Soviet Union. Pretty soon we'll be looking for a counterweight to China. Japan and Russia would seem to be worthy candidates. Japan already kicked China's ass once and Russia is pretty paranoid that they won't be able to hold onto Siberia. It's probably not unfounded paranoia either given the respective populations and the fact that Russia isn't even meeting the replacement rate right now.

Re:hmmm.

[WindBourne]

ANd it will not be population. It will be about water and resources. Siberia is LOADED compared to China.

Re:hmmm.

[Shakrai]

ANd it will not be population. It will be about water and resources

Well, population comes into play because Russia has a declining population and the largest territory on Earth. How do you hold onto that territory in the long run if your birth rate is below the replacement rate?

Re:hmmm.

[Napoleon The Pig]

I don't want to seem like I'm implying that there wasn't any industrial espionage going on during the development of the TU-144 or the Bakinor shuttle, however there could be valid reasons those designs turned out the way they did. In aerospace engineering (and in other engineering areas as well) form typically follows function. So when you're using technology of the day to design either a supersonic commercial transport or a lifting body orbital spacecraft, you're going to find the optimized aerodynamic shapes look quite similar even when approaching the problem from two initial starting points.

Re:hmmm.

[shma]

Eh, it's all part of the balancing game of geopolitics. China was a counterweight to the Soviet Union. Pretty soon we'll be looking for a counterweight to China. Japan and Russia would seem to be worthy candidates.

Skinner: Well, I was wrong. The lizards are a godsend.
Lisa: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by lizards?
Skinner: No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards.
Lisa: But aren't the snakes even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

Re:hmmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, population comes into play because Russia has a declining population and the largest territory on Earth. How do you hold onto that territory in the long run if your birth rate is below the replacement rate?

The Chinese do not want to fuck with the Russians using their so-called population advantage. Something tells me the reappearance of the neutron bomb (even if it is to be used on Russian soil) would be sudden.

What the hell are we going to do, bitch that the Russians are slaughtering the Chinese on Russian soil using neutron weapons, Novichok nerve gas, and the plague? Please. And the Russians are indeed crazy enough to do it. There's a reason we in the US don't go head-to-head with them in places like Georgia.

Re:hmmm.

[JCWDenton]

The soviets didn't exactly shy away from exact copies either.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4

Re:hmmm.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sort of In reality, the basics of what they were trying to achieve lent themselves naturally to vehicles that were externally very similar. Consider a Boeing 767 and an Airbus A330. I'd wager 95% or more of the population couldn't spot more than 10 differences if they saw them sitting side-by-side on the ground, despite both planes being designed independently by teams half a world and a decade apart. Similar purpose led to very similar design.

There was some espionage, both attempted and successful rumored in both the Buran shuttle and the Tu-144 projects. Some details of the thermal tile design, for example, was claimed to have been smuggled out by a KGB officer who later defected and detailed his work. However, that was a basic technology component, not a detailed design, and even though both designs were for a reusable manned orbiter that could return a large payload to the surface after covering large distance in atmospheric glide to land on runway the Soviet design differed significantly in many major aspects.

For example, the US space shuttle had three re-usable engines mounted on the shuttle orbiter itself to save cost. The Buran saved a little weight by using disposable engines mounted on the external fuel tank. This also would have lent itself well for use as a purely unmanned large cargo carrier. The US shuttle used solid-fueled strap-on boosters and hypergolic manuevering engines whereas the Buran used kerosene fueled boosters and manuevering engines. The Buran even had provisions to allow a pair of jet engines to be added to improve its landing capabilities, although there would have been significant payload reduction.

However, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the demand for a shuttle with nearly identical performance goals to the US version was partially motivated by a simple desire to match US capabilities.

If you want an example of a true copy, consider the Tu-4 Bull bomber. It was reverse engineered from B-29's that made emergency landings in Siberia during WWII and were kept against US demands. Stalin was impressed enough with the plane and eager enough to field its capabilities that he ordered every detail to be copied exactly to save effort. There's actually an amusing (and almost certainly false) legend that the tail turret operator of one had left his personal camera in the plane after landing, and not knowing why it was there, the Soviet engineers dutifully made such a camera a standard feature of the Tu-4. In reality, they made compromises to fit what was available. The Tu-4's engines were similar, but not perfect clones, and the skin of the aircraft was of a thicker metric gage Soviet industry was equipped to produce instead of the 1/16" aluminum the B-29 used. It also replaced the 20mm canons with the Soviet standard 23mm canon.

Time of war: internment camps for all chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's put them all in one place so we can keep an eye on them, those up-to-no-good commie spies. And Ramen soup is all they get. Without the spices !!

The Universe Doesn't Care

[Cynic9]

...who is flying the rocket. Countries can have phallic contests all day long but space exploration needs to be a world-wide effort.

Of course, we will eventually start setting claim to planets and other bodies like we own them. Let's just hope we don't spray paint someone else's territory and get space-lynched.

Re:The Universe Doesn't Care

[theaveng]

It will be a worldwide effort. Right after China stops treating its citizens as disposable. Look how China treated their farmers during the Olympics (cutting them off from water so they could have water fountains in the athletic village).

Re:The Universe Doesn't Care

[Cynic9]

I'm all for civil rights but we can't police the world anymore than we can police the galaxy. I don't know anything about what's going on over there aside from what our media reports. There are tons of countries that treat their population poorly but that doesn't change the fact that their governments could be spending on a space program.

So it will be a worldwide effort regardless of how you feel about China. Whether it's a joint-worldwide effort--who knows.

How is he guilty of arms exports?

[Pvt_Ryan]

He just leaked plans for fueling and for a space shuttle at that..

Re:How is he guilty of arms exports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... Aside from the OBVIOUS military implications of all rocketry-related tech, that technology presumably cost the US taxpayer tons of money to develop. It is a technology that we INVESTED in because it gives us an economic, technical, and tactical advantage over every other nation on the planet. He is a US citizen, knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and (regardless of what the specific technology was) had NO RIGHT to sell us out to China. I believe he is getting off easy, since a treason charge is entirely appropriate here!

FYI : This is an OBVIOUS case. But. . . word of warning. Even the most innocuous things are deemed to be export restricted. Seriously... In my experience, the amount of stuff that is ITAR restricted is simply staggering! (in fact, most stuff remotely related to aerospace is at least ITAR (if not classified) by default!!!)

Re:How is he guilty of arms exports?

[Pvt_Ryan]

Never said he had the right or he was correct in what he was doing but as far as i am concerned there is a massive difference between exporting the plans for a rocket engine and exporting the plans for a Nuke.

Re:How is he guilty of arms exports?

[kidgenius]

It has military applications, therefore it is an arms export. The US government has extremely strict rules regarding arms exports, and some items that are covered seem rather mundane. The guy who wrote PGP almost got thrown in jail for releasing it, because it was viewed as being an arms export. Boeing got sued for tens of millions of dollars because some 737s were sold to China that had a gyro in them which had been derived from a gyro in military use. GPS probably at one point was also considered to be something to fall under arms exports. I've had to take some training for this stuff, and it's pretty crazy.

Re:How is he guilty of arms exports?

[Pvt_Ryan]

Crazy is the right term because technically "anything" has military applications

Sssh! Don't tell anybody

[Henry V .009]

He's actually on our side. We're trying to get China to copy our space shuttle.

Re:Sssh! Don't tell anybody

[pimpimpim]

Seeing how well the US version is doing, a chinese copy might indeed end up being better.

False dichotomy there, bub

[MikeRT]

Unless the FBI is simply foaming at the mouth to create FUD and bungle this like they bungle everything else. It's more of a matter of industrial espionage rather than national security.

If the Chinese got ahold of that new laser weapon system from Northrop Grumman, I doubt you would make such a neat little dichotomy there between industrial espionage and national security.

The Chinese government is actually quite hostile to the United States and many other countries. Just look at what they're doing to Africa if you have any doubts as to whether or not this is a country you want having technology that can be used to assist them in becoming a credible player in space on a military footing.

This Physicist should probably be executed or imprisoned for life if there is any way to get such a sentence. In a more honest time, what he did would be considered treason in spirit, if not exactly the letter of the law.

One of the things that keeps us safe, and keeps us from fighting long, protracted wars is the fact that other countries have a damned hard time competing with us technologically on the battlefield. The Chinese have, for a long time, been trying to steal said technology from us. They really ramped it up after the first Persian Gulf War when their soldiers actually got to see what our technology could do when we unleashed a largescale attack on another country with our new weapon systems. One of the most effective ways for us to prevent a war is to make betraying military applicable technologies to their government an offense that most of these guys would never commit because the punishment is so severe.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[MikeRT]

I can already predict that some snarky asshole is going to come along and say "long, protracted wars like Iraq." The answer is no. Try the sort of wars where both parties are actually on a generally equal footing, where hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of soldiers end up dead. One of the reasons that governments like the Chinese government don't risk war with us is that they know that with our currently superior equipped and trained military, we can inflict devastating and likely very disproportionate casualties on them. If they are successful at industrial espionage, they close the gap there between our respective militaries and can come much closer to going toe-to-toe with our troops any day of the week.

Being generally anti-war, I tend to be of the opinion that Roosevelt was right when he said we should walk softly and carry a big stick. That big stick isn't so intimidating when you let your enemy have one of his very own modeled on yours.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Ethanol-fueled]

The link you posted above is an interesting story, and I understand the need for a strong defense, but these days our defense is really more of an cash-cow of an industry than it is an actual defense.

What has been happening to Chinese military industrial spies caught in the US? A few years in jail and deportation. The era of Julius and Ethel Rosenburg is long gone.

If China was such a terrible enemy and should be kept in check as much as possible, why is this being allowed to happen?

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Shakrai]

what he did would be considered treason in spirit, if not exactly the letter of the law.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Maybe even under the letter of the law. 'Aid and Comfort'

One of the most effective ways for us to prevent a war is to make betraying military applicable technologies to their government an offense that most of these guys would never commit because the punishment is so severe.

They'll still do it. People commit espionage for a variety of reasons. And the punishments are already pretty severe -- personally I'd rather be executed than spend the rest of my natural life in 23 hour a day solitary confinement at Florence ADX. The reason that most spies don't get the death penalty is because they agree to a life sentence in exchange for revealing how much information they gave away.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Shakrai]

but these days our defense is really more of an cash-cow of an industry than it is an actual defense.

Says who? Would you want to go up against American weapons systems and the American military? Our procurement processes may be completely fucked up but the final product is nonetheless pretty impressive. Is there anything on Earth that can take on the F-22 for example?

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Thanshin]

You know, mentally replacing each instance of "the chinese" in your text with "the chinese government" makes it non xenophobe.

At least until you reach: "One of the most effective ways for us to prevent a war is to make betraying military applicable technologies to their government an offense that most of these guys would never commit because the punishment is so severe." where you obviously refer to chinese people living in the United States.

If I were you, I'd review my thoughts on the differences between governments and human beings.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[jollyreaper]

I can already predict that some snarky asshole is going to come along and say "long, protracted wars like Iraq." The answer is no. Try the sort of wars where both parties are actually on a generally equal footing, where hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of soldiers end up dead. One of the reasons that governments like the Chinese government don't risk war with us is that they know that with our currently superior equipped and trained military, we can inflict devastating and likely very disproportionate casualties on them. If they are successful at industrial espionage, they close the gap there between our respective militaries and can come much closer to going toe-to-toe with our troops any day of the week.

1. Our military is over-extended already. It's unlikely we even have enough spare troops to invade Guam again at this point.
2. There's no possible scenario I can think of that would see us facing down China in a ground battle.
3. Economic warfare seems to be a far smarter arena to be engaged in than direct military conflict. And they have us over the barrel in that regard.
4. There's a difference between a bombing campaign and a ground invasion of given territory. All the high tech in the world doesn't count for much if you are fighting against an entrenched enemy on home turf. Witness how easily we smoked the standing Iraqi army in both Gulf wars versus the trouble we're facing trying to police cities filled with guerrillas.

The struggle we're looking at right now is over access to markets and resources. Granted, the future is always in flux but the prospects for a large-scale industrial war the likes of WWII are extremely remote. 4th generation guerrilla wars seem to be the likely scenario for as far into the future as we can reasonably gaze.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Hognoxious]

a life sentence in exchange for revealing how much information they gave away

And you can trust that information 100%. I mean these are spies we're talking about, not lawyers or real-estate salesmen.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[grumpyman]

The Chinese government is actually quite hostile to the United States and many other countries.

When the country is this big and US is the biggest aggressor in the world, invading any country of choice within no valid reason, they'd be silly if they don't arm up and show strength.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[lysergic.acid]

If the Chinese got ahold of that new laser weapon system from Northrop Grumman, I doubt you would make such a neat little dichotomy there between industrial espionage and national security.

right, but this guy didn't get a hold of a new laser weapon, or any other type of weapon. that's the whole point. what he stole had nothing to do with weapons research and everything to do with manned space flight and other space launch technology:

Shu, 68, pleaded guilty to violating the Arms Export Control Act by helping Chinese officials based at the space facility on southern Hainan island to develop manned space flight and future missions to the Moon.

He also acknowledged he had sent them in December 2003 a specific military document detailing the design of liquid hydrogen tanks crucial to launching vehicles into space, the Justice Department said in a statement.

it's like saying, "well you wouldn't be able to say that he didn't assassinate the president if he had assassinated the president." it's a moot point, because that's not what happened.

besides, i thought we were past racial/gender/religious discrimination in the workplace. do we really want to push America back 40 years and undo all of the social/cultural progress made by the Civl Rights movement?

xenophobia isn't exactly conducive of societal progress or technological advancement. in fact, it's been shown that cultural diversity promotes innovation and enhances work performance, particularly in the R&D sector.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[khallow]

And you can trust that information 100%. I mean these are spies we're talking about, not lawyers or real-estate salesmen.

Golly, I bet the CIA never thought of that. Better write them a letter pronto.

More seriously, these guys are caught, looking at serious prison time, and their captors hold all the cards. My understanding is that they'll get questioned multiple times in multiple ways over many months. While not all of their statements can be immediately verified, a lot of it can and the spy will never know how much. Sure, I suppose someone could keep a secret over that length of time while feigning cooperation, but it'd be difficult.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Shakrai]

And you can trust that information 100%

Eh, it depends on the underlying motivation they had for committing espionage. The FBI had something called 'MICE' during the Cold War -- Money, Ideology, Coercion, and Ego -- it was meant to explain the reasonings behind why someone would commit espionage.

Someone who committed espionage because they were blackmailed (coercion) by the foreign power would be less likely to lie about their activities when caught than someone who committed it for idealogical reasons (i.e: they actually believe in the political system of our adversary). In any case, I'm sure that any information from confessed spies is taken with a grain of salt and verified through other sources wherever possible. At the end of the day I'm sure you can see the wisdom in having a living breathing source of information as opposed to a dead corpse.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Red Flayer]

Maybe even under the letter of the law. 'Aid and Comfort'

Only if China is our Enemy.

I'm sure that move would be great for foreign relations... let's legally define China as our enemy in order to convict someone of treason instead of espionage!!1! ;)

It seems you don't think along those lines, but I thought I'd point out the ramifications for the GP... of course there are plenty of Americans (and people of other nationalities, of course) who believe the Other is always an enemy... but those people are irrational, IMO, and not worth having a discussion with.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Toll_Free]

From IronMan...

"Is it better to be respected, or feared?"

I saw, WHY NOT BOTH?

Truer words where NEVER spoken in a military theater.

--Toll_Free

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Toll_Free]

"If I were you, I'd review my thoughts on the differences between governments and human beings."

That's pretty hard when foreign governments USE Human Beings.

--Toll_Free

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Ethanol-fueled]

I served time in the Air Force as an enlisted avionics technician and left just as the first F-22 squadron was being assembled at Langley.

Yes, the F-22 is an impressive piece of machinery, but like all military technology, it's 20 years behind the times. It's an angular relic of the "Top Gun" era where pilots engaged in those flashy, showy dogfights - keep in mind that the majority of Air Force Brass are command pilots and underneath those ribbons, they will always be boys playing with their toys! There's a reason why you have Generals and such who still insist on recreationally collecting flight hours on your dime!

The competing F-23 was the superior aircraft but it performed more poorly in "knife fights", i.e. head-on dogfights, than the F-22 did. Which is redundant, because the stealth features of both aircraft are designed so that the aircraft can avoid dogfights in the first place! When the F-22's will be used in war they will most likely be used for bombing missions as the F-15(their predecessors)'s are today. A squadron of smaller, cheaper, unmanned Predators would make a much larger difference in asymmetrical warfare. Much like GM, the days of "bigger and badder" are over.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Thanshin]

> That's pretty hard when foreign governments USE Human Beings.

Yes, well, criminal organizations also use human beings and it's pretty easy to understand that not every citizen of a country that has a criminal organization is a criminal.

Brazil may have a great soccer team and that still doesn't make brazilians any better at playing soccer than french people.

And, surprisingly enough, being chinese doesn't raise the chances of being corrupt.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Shakrai]

Our military is over-extended already. It's unlikely we even have enough spare troops to invade Guam again at this point.

And? People tend to forget that in 1941 we had a smaller army than Portugal and a nearly non-existent Air Force. The only branch of the armed forces that was remotely ready for war was the US Navy. My concern with our military being over-extended is not that we'd lose a large-scale industrial war -- it's that we'd lose the the opportunity to nip a problem in the bud before it became a large-scale industrial war.

There's no possible scenario I can think of that would see us facing down China in a ground battle.

What possible scenario could you think of in 1920 that would see us facing down Germany and Italy in a ground battle?

Economic warfare seems to be a far smarter arena to be engaged in than direct military conflict. And they have us over the barrel in that regard.

How do they have us over the barrel? Economics is a two-way street. If we stop buying their exports they lose the incoming capital that they need to pull their hundreds of millions of rural poor out of poverty. They'd wind up being hurt at least as much (if not more so) as we would.

Witness how easily we smoked the standing Iraqi army in both Gulf wars versus the trouble we're facing trying to police cities filled with guerrillas.

We're facing that trouble because we didn't go into the country with enough force to fight a proper counter-insurgency operation. And they aren't really guerrillas in the classical sense -- a lot (most?) of the violence is Iraqi on Iraqi as competing interests vie for power. It's closer to a civil war than a guerrilla war.

Granted, the future is always in flux but the prospects for a large-scale industrial war the likes of WWII are extremely remote.

What are you basing that on? WWII didn't happen in a vacuum. The first thing that happened was the economic rug got pulled out from under the globe -- sound familiar?

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[thebheffect]

4. There's a difference between a bombing campaign and a ground invasion of given territory. All the high tech in the world doesn't count for much if you are fighting against an entrenched enemy on home turf. Witness how easily we smoked the standing Iraqi army in both Gulf wars versus the trouble we're facing trying to police cities filled with guerrillas.

The struggle we're looking at right now is over access to markets and resources. Granted, the future is always in flux but the prospects for a large-scale industrial war the likes of WWII are extremely remote. 4th generation guerrilla wars seem to be the likely scenario for as far into the future as we can reasonably gaze.

The Gulf War pitted the #1 US military, versus the then-ranked #4 Iraqi military, numbering some 1.2 million ground troops and nearly 6,000 tanks. We *did* fight a ground war against an 'entrenched' opponent. Better training and vastly superior weaponry were the differences. As much as some people would like to compare China and the US in terms of military might, the reality is that the difference between those two powers is much greater than the difference between the US and Iraq pre-Gulf War.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[jollyreaper]

The Gulf War pitted the #1 US military, versus the then-ranked #4 Iraqi military, numbering some 1.2 million ground troops and nearly 6,000 tanks. We *did* fight a ground war against an 'entrenched' opponent. Better training and vastly superior weaponry were the differences. As much as some people would like to compare China and the US in terms of military might, the reality is that the difference between those two powers is much greater than the difference between the US and Iraq pre-Gulf War.

We didn't fight them in the cities in GW1, that's the difference. Quoting directly from the military leaders at the time, fighting the Iraqis in the open desert was like going after the Japanese on the high seas in 1944, nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. But when it came time to dig the Japanese army out of the fortified islands, that's when we started paying a steep price in blood, superior forces and equipment or not. The fear in GW1 was that city fighting would prove to be a meat-grinder. No matter that Iraq was no longer able to project force beyond its borders, no matter that we rule the skies over that country. You put tanks in an urban setting, they're RPG magnets. There's too many places for enemies to hide, there's the civilian population to consider. To fight in cities, armored forces give up its primary advantages of speed and mobility. And it's no fun for the infantry, either.

Also, don't forget if we're talking China vs. the US, they have nukes. They may not have as many as we do and they may not have the same kind of ICBM's and SLBM's we do but they certainly have enough to fuck up our day.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Shakrai]

A squadron of smaller, cheaper, unmanned Predators would make a much larger difference in asymmetrical warfare

Asymmetrical warfare may be what we are currently engaged in but nobody is ever going to conquer the free world using asymmetrical warfare. I've never agreed with this notion that we should build our military around fighting asymmetrical warfare -- it would be nice if that was also a focus but we need to retain the ability and technology to fight and win a conventional war.

The competing F-23 was the superior aircraft but it performed more poorly in "knife fights", i.e. head-on dogfights, than the F-22 did. Which is redundant, because the stealth features of both aircraft are designed so that the aircraft can avoid dogfights in the first place!

And it was redundant in Vietnam because the Sparrow missile ensured that dogfighting would never happen. Hell, why even equip the F-4 with a gun? It's clearly obsolete.

Much like GM, the days of "bigger and badder" are over

Yeah, until somebody who is bigger and badder than we are comes along.....

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[OrangeTide]

2. There's no possible scenario I can think of that would see us facing down China in a ground battle.

You'd be surprised how quickly politicians can turn a bad economy into an international incident and then into something worse. We're a lot closer to a seriously complicated problem with China than we have every been before.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Chinese got ahold of that new laser weapon system from Northrop Grumman, I doubt you would make such a neat little dichotomy there between industrial espionage and national security.

They don't need to, laser weapons are technical red herrings. A few hundred dollars in highly reflective materials (which don't necessarily need to be all that thick) completely negates the value of a laser. Some aluminium foil would significantly negate the value of any laser system, though there are certainly better options.

Admittedly a 95% reflection coefficient on a surface being hit with 15KW means you still have 750W to cope with in a small area, but with a little bit of practice I'm sure the armour designers will simply stick some 99 or 99.5% reflective materials as a layer in armour. That would have the incidentally destructive but amusing effect of potentially bouncing the laser beam randomly back out 'into space'. Even in the worst case, with a minimum of brain power you can have the laser melt a tiny (very tiny) hole in part of the armour, which is functionally impossible to hit a second time.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[thebheffect]

There have been wars fought between nuclear powers without the use of nuclear weapons (read: Pakistan and India). Everyone knows the use of nuclear weapons is an immediate death sentence from the rest of the world.

To compare the war in Iraq in it's current form to hypothetical war against China is impossible. A war with China would play into the strengths of the US military, seeing as it would be a war the US has been building for since the Cold War days.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Eunuchswear]

If you want to consider China an enemy, and think "Aid and Comfort" is enough to convict for treason then you'd better start by locking up the board of Wal-Mart. Then have a look at the contents of your house and wardrobe and decide whether to turn yourself in.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[RCL]

One of the things that keeps us safe, and keeps us from fighting long, protracted wars is the fact that other countries have a damned hard time competing with us technologically on the battlefield.

That, and the fact that you live so far away.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[jollyreaper]

There have been wars fought between nuclear powers without the use of nuclear weapons (read: Pakistan and India). Everyone knows the use of nuclear weapons is an immediate death sentence from the rest of the world.

The question would be how threatened one side feels. We already had threats to use nukes in the Arab-Israeli wars. The Sampson Option calls for the employment of every nuke in the arsenal against Arab targets if the existence of Israel is on the line. The reference is to Sampson pulling down the Philistine temple on his own head, suicide vengeance. I forget if it was the Six-Day War or the Yom Kippur war but during one of them phone calls were made to ensure the US would rush anti-tank weapons in at discount prices.

To compare the war in Iraq in it's current form to hypothetical war against China is impossible. A war with China would play into the strengths of the US military, seeing as it would be a war the US has been building for since the Cold War days.

That's the problem with hypotheticals, the whole dynamic changes on the particulars of what you're speculating over. What would the war be over? Where would we be fighting? What constitutes a win? The only scenario I can think of is an invasion of Taiwan. The western experts feel that China doesn't have the sealift capacity to make a real go of it. What sealift they do have would be extremely vulnerable to Taiwanese ships, subs, and aircraft. Sure, China can barrage the hell out of them with rockets but that doesn't put troops onshore. If the US decided to intervene, that plays directly to our strengths. The Chinese would have a very hard time putting ships across the straights without getting them blown up. The same goes for any sort of power projection scenario that involves the high seas. If we were talking about a land invasion of a neighboring country, then things get more complicated. We're the ones having to use sealift to get troops in and the Chinese have lots and lots of guided missiles. They don't have to hit us on the high seas, they could strike from land and we saw how bad the UK had it with the Falklands war.

I just don't honestly see a near-future scenario where we'd be at war with the Chinese. Now as the poster above mentioned, a second world war seemed far off in 1920. But really, it was far off. I'd say it wasn't until maybe '34 or '35 that Hitler had enough clout and was making enough noise for people to start getting worried. Nobody on September 10th, 2001 would have imagined us at war in Afghanistan and the next day nobody could see how we wouldn't.

Just to be clear, by near-future I mean within a decade. Obviously, you start making predictions too far out and you're just about certain to get it wrong.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Anonymous Coward]

> One of the things that keeps us safe, and keeps us from fighting long, protracted wars is the fact that other countries have a damned hard time competing with us technologically on the battlefield.

Also, that is what makes you start unnecessary wars in the first place. (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[idiotnot]

And it was redundant in Vietnam because the Sparrow missile ensured that dogfighting would never happen. Hell, why even equip the F-4 with a gun? It's clearly obsolete.

Worse than the F-4 was the F-111, which was practically incapable of dogfighting. Luckily, its shortcomings, along with the F-4's, paved the way for the F-16 (which is still probably the best aircraft in the world for pure close-in dogfighting).

The parent poster probably has more information than I do about the actual capabilities of the F-22 as far as A2G capabilities; his point that F-22 is designed for air supremacy operations is spot on. Rumor has it that first time one went out at Red Flag all of the F-16s in the air were dead before they even knew he was in the air.

The multi-purpose role will be filled in the future by the F-35, which by most accounts, looks like it's going to be an awesome aircraft. And, yes, it can be equipped with a gun. :-)

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[MadnessASAP]

Yes, a missile launcher. The F-22 is an impressive piece of equipment, but it does not bestow godly powers on those who posses it, it simply gives them a sharper sword then their opponent but that's not going to mean anything when your opponent is better trained and has a better understanding of the battlefield then you do.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[johannesg]

This Physicist should probably be executed or imprisoned for life if there is any way to get such a sentence. In a more honest time, what he did would be considered treason in spirit, if not exactly the letter of the law.

I'm curious: do you think the same also true for all those american companies that moved their production facilities to China, and in doing so gave China the necessary foot in the door; the money and the knowledge to actually become a major player to begin with?

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Shakrai]

his point that F-22 is designed for air supremacy operations is spot on

Oh, I wouldn't dispute that point. I would dispute the notion that it's a bad idea to build things like the F-22 because we haven't used them recently. There seems to be a competing school of thought in DC about the future of our military -- one side advocates that we build a leaner force focused on asymmetrical warfare -- the other that we retain the ability to fight and win a more conventional war.

I think it's dangerous to build an armed force around the concept of fighting asymmetrical wars -- we may be more likely to engage in them but the consequences of losing an asymmetrical war like Vietnam or Iraq would seem to be a lot less dire than the consequence of losing a conventional war with another nation-state. One leads to a decade or so of reflection and recrimination -- the other leads to the end of this Republic (or the choice of using nuclear weapons for survival -- which might as well be the same thing)

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[InvisiBill]

Granted, the future is always in flux but the prospects for a large-scale industrial war the likes of WWII are extremely remote.

What are you basing that on? WWII didn't happen in a vacuum. The first thing that happened was the economic rug got pulled out from under the globe -- sound familiar?

http://nuclearrisk.org/soaring_article.php points out how a lot of little, barely-noticed steps can take you to a point that you never imagined could happen. Originally from http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/21/1819256...

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Anonymous Coward]

What possible scenario could you think of in 1920 that would see us facing down Germany and Italy in a ground battle?

Considering the US faced Germany just two years before that in ground battle?

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the things that keeps us safe, and keeps us from fighting long, protracted wars is the fact that other countries have a damned hard time competing with us technologically on the battlefield. The Chinese have, for a long time, been trying to steal said technology from us.

While it always provides a false sense of security to have the bigger stick in hands, to over-estimate the importance of military advantage is proved dangerous in the history over and over again. US has denied developing countries many resources and informations in the range of common business practices, hostile or not. And while unwilling to aid countries in need, the US government keeps pointing finger to those who do. China started aiding African countries in civil areas decades ago and why all the attention now? Those who kept up with international politics should know the answer already.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Zordak]

Is there anything on Earth that can take on the F-22 for example?

You've obviously never confronted a three-year-old armed with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Sinbios]

Dude, China has the largest standing military in the world. If you still think they're poorly equipped, you might want to read up on this. As for training, the rampant nationalism in China just might make up for any deficiencies. Considering how well America faired the last they were involved in military action in Asia, I'd say you are a wee bit overconfident in the U.S.'s military strength.

Re:False dichotomy there, bub

[Anonymous Coward]

For starters, you'd have to explain in court why an Enemy has a most favoured nation trading status. If you revoked that trading status, you'd have a good portion of American corporations working to vote you out of office on the next electio, even if you're right wing Republican and your opponent really is a socialist.

but... but...

[Timothy Brownawell]

Information wants to be free, man. He was just freeing it from its cruel imprisonment by the US government.

Especially impressive is that he's apparently willing to take its place in order to do so.

Re:but... but...

[GuloGulo]

Nicely done.

Let's just get this over with.

[R2.0]

Ahem.

[whinyvoice]But the US does it toooo![/whineyvoice]

Please proceed.

Re:Let's just get this over with.

[dwye]

> But the US does it toooo!

And our "illegal" agents (vs. those with diplomatic cover, and actually using the Soviet jargon, not US) know what will happen to them.

I say convict him, then put him in the general population of a prison, with a notation that he should never get solitary confinement. Bets on whether the good old honest cons will let him live for six months before someone shivs him?

Such discoveries...

[GerardAtJob]

... should be open to everyone, any country around the world... We should help each other when it comes (at least) to space exploration. I could understand for a bomb, but why space stuffs? ...imo

Airport security FTW!

[line-bundle]

So they finally managed to get someone with the wonderful airport security system!

Did they not learn from

[Anonymous Coward]

Space Cowboys

Here we go again ...

[c0d3g33k]

Despite being the exception to the rule, this will become another argument for justifying domestic surveillance and the erosion of civil liberties. Just wait.

Spare me

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinaman is a direct translation of äåoeä. When in "Greater China", I get damned tired of constantly being called å-åoeä and éè±ä".

Re:Spare me

[eldavojohn]

Chinaman is a direct translation of äåoeä. When in "Greater China", I get damned tired of constantly being called å-åoeä and éè±ä".

I agree, those slurs are tired and racist. Plus, it's also difficult to tell if someone is talking to you or screaming in agony.

Re:Spare me

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what excuse does Slashdot have for not supporting Unicode yet? It's 2008. Not to mention that it's a pain to use on mobile devices (and can't moderate from Opera Mini) and unnecessarily heavy on bandwidth. One would expect better of the archetypal geek site.

Re:Spare me

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinaman is a direct translation of äåoeä. When in "Greater China", I get damned tired of constantly being called å-åoeä and éè±ä".

Your characters aren't coming across well on my computer. I assume you mean "zhong-guo-ren" (China person), "wai-guo-ren" (non-China person) or "lao-wai" (old outsider) or "foreign devil." I agree with you there. (For years, I taught in China and Taiwan. A white man in the minority, putting up with a LOT of ethnic and cultural prejudice. My wife is Taiwanese.) (Since I was a minority, does that mean I cannot be racist? ;-)

BTW, many "politically correct" labels are flawed. White-skinned Siberians are Asians. I have dark skinned friends in India and Papua New Guinea who are neither African nor American.

There is on race - Human. Our differences are ethnic and cultural, not racial. True racism is categorizing other people as something less than human.

Re:Spare me

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I was a minority, does that mean I cannot be racist?

You joke, but of course the truth is that anyone can be racist. Someone (else, of course) like you, a non-Chinese teacher in China, married to a Chinese person, could easily be racist against Chinese people. I have seen black men married to white women who were the most white-hating jerks around. I have seen white men married to Japanese women, living in Japan, acting like racist shitheads in their new home country. Interracial marriage proves nothing about racism other than pointing out that you don't mind getting your jubblies rumbled by one of "their" women. Choosing to live somewhere says nothing about racism except that you are willing to tolerate proximity with "them." See colonialism.

BTW, many "politically correct" labels are flawed. White-skinned Siberians are Asians. I have dark skinned friends in India and Papua New Guinea who are neither African nor American.

That only means that these labels are being misapplied, not that the underlying goal of their promotion and usage is flawed. A lot of it has to do with the unwillingness of established people to be sensitive to the struggles of non-established people, and the ignorance that is associated therewith.

There is on race - Human. Our differences are ethnic and cultural, not racial. True racism is categorizing other people as something less than human.

This convenient re-definition does not eliminate the phenomenon and effects of what you might call "false" racism.

Please note that I have nothing against you personally, and I do not mean to cast aspersions on you whatsoever.

Practically a Slashdot Hero

[N8F8]

I'm sure on this site he's considered a hero.

Re:Practically a Slashdot Hero

[Anonymous Coward]

And I'm sure that pretty much everywhere you're just considered an asshole.

The odds against him being caught are huge

[jollyreaper]

I can't claim any personal experience with counter-intelligence but everything I've read on the matter makes the feebs out to be completely incompetent jackasses. Potential intelligence assets will walk in the front door and the FBI and CIA couldn't manage to recognize them for what they were. It seems like the operative rules are along the lines of:

1. First, don't fuck up.
2. Doing things increases the chances of fucking up; the less you do, the less likely you fuck up, unless your fuck up was not doing anything.
3. Your primary enemy is other intelligence services competing for your budget and turf. Cut those bastards off at the knees.
4. In your spare time, see if any foreign agents might be up to something.

For a case in point, Operation Pastorius.

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=949

German defectors walk right up to the FBI and the G-men had to be beaten over the head before they realized something was up. And Hoover, ugh, don't even get me started on that bastard. The Brits couldn't stand working with that transvestite media whore in WWII. No sooner would a German agent be sniffed out and the FBI would roll him up and bring in the pressmen so German intel could find out their operation was blown and there would be enough details blabbed to the press so the Germans would know how they were sniffed out. The Brit approach was to figure out who the agents were, then keep a close eye on who they associated with so they could discover the larger spy network. They would also use these agents to unwittingly feed bogus intel back into German hands. That that was all too subtle for the swinging dick approach favored by American intel.

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[Drakkenmensch]

That that was all too subtle for the swinging dick approach favored by American intel.

Again, is anybody here surprised that this was the favored approach of J. Edgar?

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[Toll_Free]

"The Brit approach was to figure out who the agents were, then keep a close eye on who they associated with so they could discover the larger spy network. They would also use these agents to unwittingly feed bogus intel back into German hands. That that was all too subtle for the swinging dick approach favored by American intel."

Yeah, the British approach to handling WWII was working SO well before the swinging dicks came over and saved that little Island, huh?

Telling the US populace that the British or any other .eu country did great things in comparison to the US is lamesauce. If not for the US, people in .eu would be speaking german or russian. Period.

It's nice to say things 50+++ years later that
don't make sense, but you cannot rewrite history.

The US government does things the way it did to the German agents because it undermines moral. Always has, always will. And there is a LOT to say when it comes to undermining the moral of thine enemy... Age old war tactics, really.

Both methods where necessary, and it would appear they work. Germany has nothing as far as an expansionist mentality, militarily they are fairly moot, and Russia isn't much of a world power like they used to be.

Yeah, bag on the Americans. It's the popular thing to do.

--Toll_Free

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[Anonymous Coward]

And Hoover, ugh, don't even get me started on that bastard. The Brits couldn't stand working with that transvestite media whore in WWII.

That that was all too subtle for the swinging dick approach favored by American intel.

So, the Brits couldn't stand working with a swinging dick transvestite? Considering that MI5 and MI6 were sort of a gay dating service for the KGB, can we file this one under professional jealousy?

See, http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/secrets-revealed-of-gay-honey-trap-that-made-spy-of-vassall-406096.html

and see also the individual biographies of
Anthony Blunt, Guy Burgess, and Donald Duart Maclean of The Cambridge Five http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[homer_ca]

Sounds about right. Try googling Katrina Leung. She was a supposed FBI informant, but she was sleeping with her FBI handler and playing him for info to send back to the Chinese. What a jackass!

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[smoker2]

Yeah, bag on the Americans. It's the popular thing to do.

Who of course, would NEVER spy on another country.
That's without the whole ying and yang stuff. What do you think happens when a country is so strong that it has no competitors ? It either invents some, or with all its paranoid machinery of war having nowhere to act out externally, turns that machinery to point inward. How's that working out for you ?
If the Chinese are prevented from being a threat, then who is going to get the feds off YOUR back ?
Then while you're busy ripping yourselves apart from the inside, the unseen competitor makes their move. This is not conjecture, it has been seen time and time again throughout history.

IMHO, the reason the UK is in a similar state is due to being in the US pocket. We can't piss you off coz you have all the money, and the power, but that means accepting your "life style" and the ludicrous commercialism that goes with it. To make us appear to be tough, our govt. acts tough on the world stage, while really they can hardly afford to persecute us, let alone start and finish a real war. However, persecuting the natives is cheaper, and it's inline with the US, so that gets done first. Also, the UK govt. has to protect your commercial interests, or you'll take the money away.

I think the only answer is a retreat from nationalism. We do have only 1 planet after all. Just foaming at the mouth about traitors doesn't help matters, it's all part of the game. You can't win against nature, but humans have proved that you can sidestep it.
That of course is a pipe dream. However, I do believe that ultimately there will be a world government, and it will be socialist. It will have to be, as it will hold the fate of every person on the planet in its hands. Not to be trusted to capitalism IMHO. They can't even run a damn bank.

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[Asic Eng]

What you are talking about here happened 66 years ago. Anyone involved is either retired or dead. This is really no longer valid criticism.

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah the "we saved everyone in WW2" line.

Just in case you did not notice, the battle of Britain was well and truly won BEFORE the US entered WW2.Germany could not invade Britain as they did not have air superiority.

You simply defended your own interest after Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.

Re:The odds against him being caught are huge

[Falconhell]

Great post.

I have always thought that in a stupid world, the most ridiculous concept was that of patriotism.

The only function patriotism serves is to blind people to the outrageaous actions of their govt.

Chairman Yang

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone else think it's funny when China acts like the Hive from Alpha Centauri? I sure do.

There is an old saying in China...

[Vexler]

We Chinese have an old saying that dates back to the Opium War. Back then we were called the "Sick Man of the Far East", because of the number of people addicted to opium which the British had imported. Later on it became "Copycat of the Far East" because of the many, many ways that China tries to imitate the West through technology, culture, fashion, music, and so on. (Think of just how much software and music are copied and distributed without any regard to proper royalties and licensing and you can begin to get a sense of the pervasiveness of this cultural trait.)

Understandably, neither label is a source of pride in the Chinese culture, but as with all cultural stereotypes and epithets, these have some truth in them.

Re:There is an old saying in China...

[Eunuchswear]

Don't worry about it. When I was a kid Japan was known for making shoddy knock-offs of "Western" goods.

Before my time the US was known for making shoddy knock-offs of European goods.

Too wide a net

[Anonymous Coward]

The arms control law is such a wide net that it covers large amounts of technology that is common knowledge or a trivial improvement on what any major power has already. This is not unlike how the rules governing classified information have been made to cover virtually everything.

National security (Re:Industrial espionage)

[mi]

It's more of a matter of industrial espionage rather than national security.

The same fuel tanks, that China has put on the spaceships, that they are so proud of, thanks to the stolen technology, can be (and, in all likelyhood, are being) put on the ballistic missiles.

It is national security...

Re:National security (Re:Industrial espionage)

[Eunuchswear]

You don't use liquid hydrogen in ICBM's.

Re:National security (Re:Industrial espionage)

[mi]

You don't use liquid hydrogen in ICBM's.

I certainly don't... The Chinese very well might.

But why speculate? Already their government is trumpeting the success of their space-program as that of their science and engineering — when, in fact, it is due, at least partially, to espionage. That the theft propped up a fairly evil regime is, in itself, (slightly) hurting the national security of the United States.

OK, now

[PalmKiller]

lets do the right thing and shoot him for treason... No wait, give him a medal! we owe china a bundle, lets take that off our debt to china instead, that outta be worth say two trillion for that information...so now china is no longer our creditor, glad that debt is settled. Now on to the other 8 trillion in national debt (not to mention the other 50 trillion owed internally).

Re:OK, now

[FooGoo]

Hmmm, we could send him to the moon and send China the bill. It's like billing the family for the bullet.

String Him UP!

[sudden.zero]

I call for a hanging! String this guy up by the neck as an example to any others who might be considering the same sort of shenanigans!

Re:String Him UP!

[hey!]

The real problem, the thing that makes China scary and has people talking about treason and execution in this case is this: deep down we're afraid we've lost our technology balls.

It's been 36 years since America has been to the Moon. An entire generation has been born since then, and have even had their own children. I remember watching Neil Armstrong take that first step on the Moon, an event that to my children that is like my parents talking about Pearl Harbor is to me. Space, to them, is a place where movies are set. The Space Shuttle program was a disappointment, and the Mars initiative is a transparent boondoggle with no significant program milestones on the calendar.

In my lifetime, I have watched the leveraged buyout of the American culture of invention. When I was a kid, America was a country that made things. Of the course of my adulthood, it became something remarkable when a thing was actually made here. Then we were a country that invented things that were made elsewhere, and that is still true, but for how long? The idea of free trade is that countries do what "they do best"; it's a good idea in theory, but in practice our role in the world economy has become to spend the accumulated gains of generations, to send investment overseas.

The idea that we can somehow protect our preeminence in the world by hoarding our past accomplishments is pathetic. Oh, I won't deny that this kind of thing doesn't help China somewhat, otherwise why would they do it? But if you could wave a magic wand and make all these sort things go away, it wouldn't make much difference at all.

China is pursuing technological and economic development, whereas we have become complacent. We have been acting in the last two decades as if national preeminence is not simply a legacy but a birthright.

So we get all worked up about cases like this, because it gives us an excuse for our own lack of initiative and vision. We have elected leaders who pandered to our laziness and anti-intellectualism, and mocked the thoughtful as out of touch, the visionary as insane. We have embraced hypocrisy, insisting the poor should shoulder their economic responsibilities, which is fine by me, but all the while demanding middle class prerogatives as our entitlement. I remember watching a movie in which people were singing that things were so wonderful in America because it is "God's Country", and cringing at the idea that some poor bastard in the third world was watching his children starve because God doesn't like him as much as he likes us. That kind of thinking is more in style today than ever.

Oh, I won't be surprised if lots of people want to hang this guy. That's what passes these days for "feel good" politics.

Re:String Him UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

I would agree on most of your points but add that America is tired of being 1st. America is tired from the last 58 years or so of holding the flag.
We now have changed our strategy. Now instead of trying to fight for democracy with arms why not have people conform to consumption so we decided outsourcing was a great way. What a great way to spread American culture than have people consume. America is a consumption nation. We now need to consume to keep our lives-society going.

Our new weapon is the economy. As we just saw with our mortgage crisis and now credit crisis is if you hurt America in anyway almost all countries suffer some way some how because of the ties with the global economic web.

So things like what what this guy did is just normal at this point. Granted it sucks but it doesn't matter if this person was a true born american or immigrant, everyone has their price because we are all slaves to consumption.

Re:String Him UP!

[sudden.zero]

Don't get me wrong I just wanted to hang him because that is what the crime calls for. You don't sell government secrets to another country and have the crime taken lightly. I am by no means condoning our country's current path of self destruction. There are a lot of problems with the way things are being done these days and it starts with the way children are being raised now. There is no discipline anymore which is why current and future generations will continue to loose ground till we are the United States of Canada, America and Mexico! When I was a child and I did something wrong my teacher beat my butt, then my Mom beat my butt, and then when my Dad got home the real pain started! Now kids are being punished with Time Outs and go stand in a corner. Let's get real folks the only thing a child understands is a swift kick in the behind all this time out are reward stuff is a load of crap! Our country was built on the backs of strong men who knew how to discipline their offspring lets grow some balls and take back our country!

Re:still have some?

[Anonymous Coward]

He was just followin Bill Clinton's lead.

No!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the CITPBODSEFTC100m3LHTVSCPVFI!!!!

Anything but that!

Re:No!!!!

[trongey]

Not the CITPBODSEFTC100m3LHTVSCPVFI!!!!

You missed the dash.
It was CITPBO-DSEFTC100m3LHTVSCPVFI.
CITPBODSEFTC100m3LHTVSCPVFI is still safe.

funny Americans...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Canada there was story in the news about a guy who was refused employment as a security guard for the federal government. The whole reason was because he spent a year teaching English in China. Furthermore, he was a native Canadian!
On top of it he was not even applying at the ministry of defense if I remember it was a job at revenue Canadaâ¦
This whole thing was a bit overblown but hey I guess you need to protect the country from compatriots that could have been brainwashed by the enemyâ¦

But China is America's friend!

[OutSourcingIsTreason]

To paraphrase Nobel economist Paul Krugman, China supplies the US poisonous toys and in return the US supplies China with fraudulent securities.

Re:But China is America's friend!

[Anonymous Coward]

He never made such a comment nor implied such a tone. you are wrong.

China already has nukes

[Chibi Merrow]

They just don't have the missile technology to deliver them... yet...

Unacceptable-Life in Prison

[speedlaw]

When China went to space, I was totally unimpressed. I figured they'd already stolen the plans from the US and the USSR. Big Deal. Now, this guy, he DESERVES Gitmo.

It is wrong to generalise but

[slashdotlurker]

is there a corelation between the current status of a first-generation US citizen's native country (whether it is rising and inducing certain kinds of pride related emotions) and the loyalty of some of those citizens. It might be interesting to look at German-Americans in 1930s as they watched Germany rise from its ashes (on the back of some horrible policies) and Chinese-Americans now.
I do not mean to impugn the patriotism of any fellow American, but I think this kind of study would be interesting.

Re:It is wrong to generalise but

[dwye]

> It might be interesting to look at German-Americans in 1930s

Bundists were a problem, until war was actually declared. Then, the majority became as patriotic as anyone else. Of course, the worst ones went home "when the Fuehrer called all good Germans back to the Fatherland." to quote Band Of Brothers (at least the movie - haven't read most of the book, yet). Mostly providing public information, suitably correlated, rather than "secret plans" or classified military info.

Also, as many 1st and 2nd generation Japanese of military age wanted to be sent back to Japan (once we started repatriation from the internment camps) as enlisted in the 442nd, the all-Japanese soldier regiment.

Italians tended to be better, but most were from lower Italy, which missed any good from Il Duce.

nanomatrix

[imagineopeneyes]

If he is guilty, then treason seems the appropriate charge. I do not think that any of the technology (that we know about) that he has given to China can really help them significantly, but still. I am always suspicious of people that are found guilty, is it possible they are guilty of things we never found out about too... What are the chances we found a 100% of the bad things he did? I think we should create a few moles that give away pigeon headed things that will never work or that will become a pain in the chops for the person receiving them... Like we should covertly give away the floating tank from WW2 that sank like a brick... or give them the source code for cyrsis and tell them its the ai for our new 'war games'...

I found Chinese to brag about secrets

[peter303]

> I doubt that anybody of American descent would be allowed to see top-secret Chinese data, 20-year citizen or not!

I found the opposite sometimes. Because much internal Chinese data is secretive- overly at times- I've been "spilled the beans" mainly out of accomplishment pride rather than espionage. For example on one 1980s visit to a Chinese Oil Company research center I was shown an exact clone of the original style cylindrical Cray supercomputer. Officially China hid they had copied Cray and had supercomputer manufacturing capacity. However some of the individual scientists were bursting at the seems with pride that they were skillful enough to do this.

A similar thing was reported in Physics Today. A physicist casually asked to see a nuclear material assaying facility and was surprising granted the request. The Chinese had implemented world-class assaying techniques as advanced as the US at the time, enough though China was rather poor then. The Chinese scientist probably shouldnt have shown this much, nor could the US physicist admit US capabilities. But the exchange appeared to be more out of pride rather than espionage.

In other news...

[flanders123]

...poorly-made knock-off rovers are popping up on the streets of Bejing for the low price of $10 million US, undercutting NASA.

Not "treason" if it helps the US's enemies

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't you learned anything from the last 8 years (and longer)?
It isn't treason if you help America's (or Israel's) enemies.
What secret program has the NYT not gleefully blown, on the front page?

For 8 years the mantra has been "If we can defeat America, we can defeat George Bush".
Any act in furtherance of that is good.
Hell, way back in 1983 Ted Kennedy went over to the USSR to see if they could create an embarrassing crisis to harm Reagen's re-election campaign. No foul there.

And why should people have a problem with doing thiings that hurt America?
It isn't like we are taught anymore that the US or Western Civilisation has any value.
In order for all cultures to be equal (but ours is uniquely bad) you have to teach only the bad things about the US and teach the good things about everyone else.
In order to avoid the sin of Discrimination, you must abandon critical thinking and become totally indiscriminate.

RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, I don't know how you could say that if you haven't RTFCITPBODSEFTC1LHTVSCPVFI

Chinese are theives

[Anonymous Coward]

The mainland Chinese are all thieving bastards who will steal and copy anything that isn't nailed down, they know it and they don't care. Yet despite knowing this, the West still imports Chinese students and engineers by the planeload.

My aunt runs a business importing and reselling sewing machines. Of course, Chinese hardware is pretty good nowadays, although usually what they do is that some stupid Western schmuck will pay them to tool up their factories for their stuff, and then they'll dishonestly run a third shift, slap their own label on it and claim it's theirs. These crooked bastards couldn't lie straight in bed.

Military??

[PPH]

TFA said it was details concerning fueling systems. While this definitely has military applications, it is also used on research and commercial launch vehicles. In fact, liquid fuel systems are uncommon in modern weapons systems.

Lets stop labeling everything that the military has an interest in as some sort of munitions. It screws up American companies ability to export this technology and compete in the world market.

Prison can be a good incentive for many of them

[MikeRT]

If this 68 year old man knew that the federal government would throw his treasonous ass to the wolves in the worst federal maximum security prison it could find, he might be inclined to turn down his handlers. Maybe if he knew that his likely cellmate was a member of MS-13 instead of your typical white collar criminal, he might be inclined to weigh the costs a little better.

Re:still have some?

[MacColossus]

Mod parent up. Bill Clinton sold sensitive ICBM tech to China. Parent is not trolling. This has nothing to do with political beliefs. The former president did something the rest of us would have been imprisoned for treason for. I would argue the parallels between this case and Clinton's sale are very close. http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/05/20/china.money/

What "military space know-how"?

[Animats]

What "military space know-how"? No US weapons system uses liquid hydrogen tanks.

The Saturn V used liquid hydrogen, and the Shuttle does, but those are NASA programs. Unmanned boosters are usually solids, or the old standard, liquid oxygen and kerosene, like the V2 from WWII. ICBMs have been all solid-fuel since the 1970s. And according to the Outer Space Treaty, the US isn't supposed to have weapons in space.

There's no military threat. The only reason to limit the export of liquid hydrogen tank technology is to slow down the Chinese manned space program.

Re:What "military space know-how"?

[IndustrialComplex]

There's no military threat. The only reason to limit the export of liquid hydrogen tank technology is to slow down the Chinese manned space program.

The ability to launch larger satellites is most certainly something that has military applications. Don't assume that just because it isn't a bullet or a jet that it isn't something with value to the military.

Re:What "military space know-how"?

[dwye]

What "military space know-how"? No current US weapons system uses liquid hydrogen tanks, that I know about.

Fixed it for you.

The only reason to limit the export of liquid hydrogen tank technology is to slow down the Chinese manned space program.

Because the Chinese would never use what they have, rather than exactly copying an American design that they will not have all of until years from now.

Re:What "military space know-how"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the wide availability of this technology in Europe I suspect Shu could have gotten a US license to export the technology if he had applied for one. He may not have known that the technology requires a license. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, of course. Nor is the stupidity of the law. Many people carry a laptop which can't be exported without a license and hope that it doesn't get stolen when overseas.

As for the bribery charge, since Shu was representing a French firm on the sale, I believe it would have been legal to get a French citizen to make the payments.

Let's get it back.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's just subtract it from the debt that we owe them... Like 100 billion per incident. If you add up add the times this has happened in the past 10 or so years, I figure we don't owe them anything. Just for good measure, Let's blow some of their stuff up too while we are at it. The chinese never were good at inventing stuff. They can copy something all day long, not invent anything new. Every technology they have they stole or purchased somewhere else. Let's do 'em like the british did them about 100 years ago in the opium wars. Let's kick their ass and then make 'em buy stuff from us.

Re:Let's get it back.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_inventions

Dumb hick, or dumbest hick?

WTF?!.....

[IHC Navistar]

"Sentencing in this matter is scheduled for April 6, 2009, where Shu faces a possible maximum sentence of 10 years in prison and a fine of $1,000,000 for each violation of the Arms Export Control Act, and a possible maximum sentence of five years in prison and a fine of $250,000 or twice the gross gain for violating the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act."

-10 years per count violation of AECA, and 5 years per count violation of FCPA?!?!?!? This slimeball deserves LIFE without parole. Exporting arms and government and military know-how is not like walking out on the check. This dipshit exported classified information to a foreign nation, CHINA. Seeing as how China is his backer, the fines are meaningless.

I think we need to revisit how people like him are treated, given the severity of their crimes.

Of course, all this will be moot, since his sentence will most likely be overturned on appeal and he'll get nothing but a slap on the wrist.

Re:WTF?!.....

[bill_mcgonigle]

-10 years per count violation of AECA, and 5 years per count violation of FCPA?!?!?!?

Dude, it's not like he was selling pot or anything horrendous like that.

China

[doomicon]

Most Favored Nation Trade Status.
China FTW!
U.S. Yougotownnnnedownedownedowned... You got owned... owned owned owned...

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:treason became mandatory by GWB

[kubitus]

be it Haliburton or what else. the only reason Dick, Donald and George are still in the US is that they are too stupid to learn another language, but smart enough to fool most US rednecks who support the National Rifle Association. Isn't it treason if you hand over weapons to terrorists - even i fthey promise your to help you against the Soviets? ;-)

... and the surprise is ?

[noshellswill]

Any nativist will tell you: trust the wogs get fucked in the azzwhole. Bend over globalist palsy.

Technology Sharing

[Anonymous Coward]

For some reason I thought it was kind of a good thing to share technology and knowledge.

If these things were open source, how would we think of them?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:WTF - you don't understand the AECA

[Anonymous Coward]

See http://www.bis.doc.gov/licensing/exportingbasics.htm

The two counts on "Arms Exports" are for dual use commercial material. Had Shu asked for a license he likely would have received one because all of the stuff is available without export restriction from Europe. The bribery charge reflects this - the big sale was made by a French company he represented in China, not by Shu's small US business.

The bleeding edge of the American Experiment

[KudyardRipling]

The problem is that naturalization may make people American on paper, but it cannot correct the potential for identity dissonance in the case of those who are visibly different. Can the Idea of America truly overcome what one sees in the mirror to the ironclad satisfaction of national security policy? Americans must come to grips with the following; the very reason that some people have excelled in their chosen field may derive from worldviews that have the potential to conflict with the oath of naturalization.

Re:The bleeding edge of the American Experiment

[KudyardRipling]

I commented on this sort of thing recently.

http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=997857&cid=25404853

Indeed so.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or do you mean to suggest that it's a risk to employ anyone who wasn't a natural-born citizen on secure projects?

Yes. Doubly so with particular immigrants that have a higher risk(based on history) of doing so.

Off with his head

[ikeman32]

Hang the low life scum sucking bottom feeder by his cock an balls on national television. If his scum sucking lawyer balks at it then hang him next to his client.

Re: WTF? And you're right.

[dsmall]

Charge him with treason, try him, and then kill him.

This sends what diplomats call "a signal" to other slimeballs thinking about selling out to a foreign power.

The other problem with selling out is that sometimes a person on the other team is turned, and gives a list of US citizens who are spies back to US counter-intelligence, and then the spies are screwed.

This happened during the Reagan administration when France turned a member of the KGB high up, and they supplied us with a list of spies. We then arranged for "special" information to be fed to them. We also arranged for "special" chips to be put into PC's that were headed for the USSR by various routes. They degraded over time, giving increasingly unreliable results.

But the most spectacular thing was a Canadian company who made software for managing very large oil networks (such as near a refinery) found out their software was being sent to the USSR via a spy. We told them. So they inserted a subtle trojan horse (more properly, a birthday trojan horse). When there was a lot of very heavy fluid moving through the pipes, the valves were told to slam shut. This resulted in very high pressures in the pipes which burst them.

The resulting fire at one site was so large it triggered the satellites that we watch Russia with as a possible nuclear explosion, because the energy released was in the kilotons of yield. It didn't have the unique double-thermal-pulse of a nuclear weapon, but it was a bigtime fire. The counterspy manager at the NSC had to tell the people there to ignore it, but could not tell them why for 15+ years afterwards.

I've always wondered if someone told Tom Clancy about this, because the start of his novel "Red Storm Rising", about a conventionally fought World War III in Europe, is a massive fire at a refinery leaving the USSR short of oil. Of course, in Clancy's book, it's Islamic radicals who trigger this from the control room, which is a little different from software that triggered itself.

Just before the summit in Iceland, the spy network was rolled up, the spies arrested, tried, and thrown away, hopefully into dungeons. Gorbachev was furious about this, because it meant the data being sent by those spies was probably tampered with and had to be disregarded, and because the USSR increasingly had problems with its PC's. He called Reagan "That liar!" in private.

All of this is a terrific read, and true. You can find it in a book from Thomas Reed, former Undersecretary to the Air Force. It's called "At The Abyss: An Insider's History of the Cold War". It's at Amazon. Required reading for any Cold War historian.

  -- thanks,

    Dave Small