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Musicians Protest Use Of Songs By US Jailers
The guy who wrote the Barney "I love you" song, and other musicians are banding together to protest the US military using their songs as weapons. The campaign has brought together groups including Massive Attack and musicians such as Tom Morello, who played with Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave. It will feature minutes of silence during concerts and festivals, said Chloe Davies of the British law group Reprieve, which represents dozens of Guantanamo Bay detainees and is organizing the campaign.
I've been tortured by morons blasting their music in my apartment complex and out of cars with overly shaky bass systems constantly. I hereby protest these so-called "artists" and their crappy music.
So, what does the "I can do anything I want with my music" slashbot crowd think?
Instead of spending effort tormenting the detainees so that they hate us even more, it seems the time could be better spent re-educating them into lovers of America. We've currently got no reason to keep them there, so at least we could find something remotely constructive to do while this is going on. Then again, our entire prison system is based on locking people away for arbitrary (and long!) amounts of time rather than actually doing anything with those people.
I guess we should just not try to extract any information from prisoners. Forget the whole "intelligence" thing. We shouldn't spy, we shouldn't use "torture." If 16 hours of extremely loud rock music (apparently not enough to deafen, though) and 4 hours of complete silence and darkness counts as "torture," people need to visit some other countries more often.
I don't think torture should be used, but I don't think this counts as torture. I guess we should give terrorists a nice cell and good food and hope they feel guilty enough about trying to blow up people that they tell us their secrets, e.g., what is planned for the future?
One other note. It's obvious to me that Morello of RAM isn't particularly upset with the "torture," as he (I presume "humorously" but people don't usually joke about something without meaning some small part of it, at the very least) joked about leveling Guantanamo except for one cell and putting Bush in that cell. Strange thing to say for someone who thinks it is so awfully inhumane. I guess he thinks Bush deserves inhumane treatment, while terrorists who rape, kill, murder, based on religion and political beliefs, deserve humane treatment.
I'd go insane if I had to list to the Barney song 15 times an hour 24/7 too!
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
I'm fine with waterboarding inmates as long as no one is actually drowned. I draw the line at Barney's "I Love You" song, though. Subjecting humans to that song is simply too uncivilized.
...I'm sure the contractors supporting Gitmo are making bank.
Blar.
Wow. So you really buy that whole "terrorists under the beds" nonsense. I guess someone has to.
I suppose you think there's an insurgency in Iraq too.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Sleep deprivation can kill. I certainly call that inhumane. Living a life that has no future except being locked in a prison for decades sounds like torture, too. When life is worse than simply being pointless and the mental cost of living another day outweighs the benefits, that's a tortured life. There's plenty of people who live lives like this, imprisoned or not, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing or that America can be proud of imposing this state of life on anyone.
Also keep in mind that these people have been there for years. What new information could they ever give to us?
You have some faulty assumption there that everyone in Guantanamo is guilty. No wonder Morello's comment appears to have stuck up your ass so much. Not to mention you don't even see the irony of your statement as it would appear to Morello.
No, you don't get to extract information from prisoners, or anyone else.
Yes, you do have to give "terrorists" a nice cell and good food, as well as a speedy trial by a jury of their peers.
Anything less justifies retribution, whether you call it "terrorism" or not.
Constant loud music wears people down phycologically. 16 hours mean that just about every waking hour is filled with this music. When they try to sleep, all there is is ringing.
Have you even heard of people who lost their hearing by shooting guns through the years without any kind of ear protection? A subset of this group end up killing themselves because they can't take the severe tinnitus ringing anymore.
Now come on. You may not think it's torture when idly thinking about it. But there must be SOME reason they are doing it.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
people, don't play rock music, some of it is quite good. If you really want people to admit to anything, just pipe in the music from any mall this time of year. That many Christmas Carols will drive even the most hardened of souls to tears.
Monstar L
I feel like an important part of art -- especially music -- is to have some control over its use at sanctioned events/places. Think of your favorite song/artist. If GW Bush wanted to use that song as his campaign song, wouldn't you feel as though the artist were somehow endorsing that campaign? Or if BMW decided to use the song in one of their car ads, isn't the song endorsing their product?
In the same way the above are pay-for-play, the artist has to explicitly give up the right for his/her work to be used in this way. If the army wants to use a song during a large military funeral, they'd need permission from the artist. How is this any different? I can't imagine anyone (other than Toby Keith) wants their music associated with state-sponsored torture.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
"I guess we should just not try to extract any information from prisoners. Forget the whole "intelligence" thing. We shouldn't spy, we shouldn't use "torture." If 16 hours of extremely loud rock music (apparently not enough to deafen, though) and 4 hours of complete silence and darkness counts as "torture," people need to visit some other countries more often. "
Do you think it would be acceptable to subject YOU to this treatment?
After all YOU are as guilty as they are. Neither of you have even been charged with a crime, neither of you has been convicted of anything, indeed the only real difference between them and you is that THEY are in gitmo and you aren't.
Are YOU willing to trade places with them?
After all, a lot of them are as innocent as you.
Perhaps we should try and "extract" intelligence from you for a few years, and see if you think its still a good idea.
you need to work on your reading skills. the prisoners aren't being put through just 16 hours of loud music and 4 hours of silence.
prisoners are being locked up without due process and subjected to physical and psychological torture for weeks, months, or even years. sensory deprivation is known to cause psychosis and potentially permanent damage to an individual. and as if the psychological abuse wasn't enough, the prisoners are also being held in stress positions meant to cause pain and/or injury to detainees for up to 2 days at a time.
and even if you have no concern for due process and human rights, torture has been proven to be a very poor way of obtaining accurate information. people will confess to crimes they didn't commit while subjected to torture. so what makes you think that "intelligence" gathered through torture would be of any value?
What "terrorists"? What, exactly, have the "terrorists" done? Who do they rape, kill and murder? Where and when is this happening?
Well, ok, the us army rapes and murders people based on religious and political beliefs. We call it war.
But these people in cuba? Do you know what they have done? What have they been charged with? What crimes did they commit? Do you even know who they are, where they come from, or what is being done to them?
NO, you dont. But its ok, they are "terrorists." Because the tv told you so.
Bush IS a war criminal. By any modern, humane definition of the term, by the UN's own definition. We hung Saddam. We hung the war criminals tried at Nuremberg.
I just love this new term, "terrorist" it is so meaningless and vague. Lets hope someday you are tagged with it and then we'll see where you stand.
You see, murderers and rapists are tried and sentenced, in any country. These poor people are not charged with any crime, are not sentenced to any punishment.
Yet sick stupid motherfuckers like you continue to sit by while it happens. Hopefully someday you will know what its like. Hopefully.
Like all those crappy Barney songs, they just added a few trivial lyrics to a PD song ("This Old Man" in this case).
They also used "Yankee Doodle" and others. One of the reason I used to detest Barney; Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers Neighborhood used real original songs.
An imperfect plan executed violently is far superior to a perfect plan. -- George Patton
If living a life that has no future except being locked in prison for decades is torture, then what should we do to criminals? Let them go? Tell them to be good and hope they are? Give them drugs?
Just because you have been there for years doesn't mean you don't have anything new to say, does it? I think you underestimate human abilities of deception.
[blast of loud Van Halen music]
Silence, Earthling! My name is Darth Vader. I am an extraterrestrial from the planet Vulcan!
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
If 16 hours of extremely loud rock music (apparently not enough to deafen, though) and 4 hours of complete silence and darkness counts as "torture," people need to visit some other countries more often.
You disgust me. The United States of America is supposed to be a shining beacon of light to the entire world. But you're fine with this sort of abuse as long as we're better than Egypt or North Korea? Screw being a beacon unto others, at least we're better than certain squalid dictatorships!
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
The 'Idle' comment box is too narrow for me to fit what I really think of you, so I'll leave it at "I'm glad that the job of deciding what counts as torture is left to people with a more comprehensive understanding of the issue than yourself."
Yes, I completely agree that there is some reason they are doing. I decline to agree that it's simple brutality and a love of torture. Are there people like that? Yes. I bet a lot of them play games like GTA, heh.
Yes, I know people lose their hearing by shooting guns, etc. And by going to rock concerts. And I know about tinnitus, members of my family have it... and not from rock concerts.
Here's my question to you. How do you propose to protect your country from those who plot against it? How do you discover plots? Hope for some of them to repent and come tell you willingly? Interestingly, a lot of the "torture" that goes on is psychological but completely verbal.. threats of family disowning them, for example, appears to work well with certain religious groups. E.g., threaten them with publically declaring that he converted to Christianity or something like that, which would cause him to be disowned by everyone he knows. Is that inhumane also? I suppose you could contemplate suicide based on that, too.
So... musicians whose songs have been determined by the armed forces to be military-grade weapons are going to protest. And they're going to protest with silence.
What's to complain about?
I think Tom Morello was making a commentary (non-literally) saying that Bush is as much a criminal, and perhaps more than the men in Gitmo who have never even been tried for a crime. Sure many of them are guilty, but we know for certain Mr. Bush is.
"If living a life that has no future except being locked in prison for decades is torture, then what should we do to criminals?"
I don't know. Give them a fair trial and a sentence of some determinable time?
And what would be the determinable time for murder, terrorism, rape, etc? In other words, should society hold no crime serious enough that the punishment is as serious as prison for life? Or should punishment no longer fit the crime.
Yes, we should. And do you know why? BECAUSE IT FUCKING WORKS. That is, unless you think that you, as a /. commenter, have more experience in the field than an actual interrogator. Although, given that you are a /. commenter, if you did believe that I shouldn't be a bit surprised.
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
Hey, guess what? As long as we're being stereotypical, please allow me to assert that you must be from the South, being that you're inbred as far as you are. You just might be a redneck if your family tree has no branches. I'll bet your sister is your favorite aunt, and the lazy-eyed kids you two have together must sure be special. Et cetera, and so on, and so forth. Ad nauseum. Ad infinitum.
But I digress.
We don't really have any evidence that these folks have done anything wrong, because if we did, we'd have a trial for them, and THEN we'd have locked them up forever, or for however long their crimes may warrant. Meanwhile, there's no reason to torture anyone. Whether it be water-boarding, thumbscrews, humiliation, or simple sleep deprivation brought on by 16 hours of loud music followed by a 4 hour respite of quiet, it's torture.
And, as a GTA-playing tinnitus sufferer, torture is just not how I want to see things done. This is not the America that I want to be a part of.
You don't like being called inbred without any supporting evidence, I'd guess. And I don't like jailing terrorists without a public trial.
To each his own, I suppose. I'm all for defending the country, but without limits on how we treat all humans, we're no better than any other offensive, fear-mongering, repressive society of the past.
I want to be remembered as having lived during a time of greatness and good virtue, not insolence.
Kid-proof tablet..
To be honest, I don't really care. As long as it is in writing, and subject to the public and courts for oversight. Believe it or not, I support corporal punishment and think it works better in the long term for everyone than the "humane" solutions like prison. I just don't like the idea that the administration has tried to do something out of sight of the public it is beholden to. If we as a people decide that prolonged torture is acceptable for certain crimes, ok. Just pass the requisite constitutional amendment and go for it.
If it is torture, it should be called torture. It becomes a lot easier to regulate it if the word is not always being avoided. If the people of the United States feel torture is required, at least this would help keep things in line. Given how many Americans likely still feel we should wipe all those Iraqis off the earth for the world trade center incident, I don't think this should be a problem.
But please, I do not want the government lie about it. I already have enough distrust from reading the conspiracy theories on slashdot. Worse yet, lying will also bring more global distrust on the United States which I do not think any more is needed of.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
"banding together to protest the U.S. military using their songs as weapons. "
Why am I getting flashbacks of Beethoven's symphony being played while character was being tortured in Clockwork Orange?
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
"suspected" terrorists.
Guantanamo has had to let huge percentages of its prisoner population go because they weren't terrorists. There's no proof that any of the rest will ever be convicted of anything either. Your problem is you believe the government and military are only torturing guilty people. By that logic, lets torture everyone in south-east LA, there's a higher percentage of real crime happening there per capita than Guantanamo.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Stop watching 24.
Should they be in jail? Let a judge decide. What should be the punishment? Let a judge decide. Or is "terrorism" such a serious crime that we can't allow judges to decide who is guilty of it? Is terrorism so bad that judges can't decide what the sentence should be? Is terrorism such a threat that only the President, the armed forces, and the Department of Homeland Security should decide who goes to jail and for how long?
If the people in Guantanamo Naval Base have done something wrong, charge them with some crimes, bring them before a proper court (like the US Supreme Court for example), and let a judge decide if they've done something wrong. Why not?
There is a Judge in Colorado (forget which county) that sentences people guilty of disturbing the peace, primarily kids with to loud music in cars or otherwise, to listen to two hours of the Barney song and Barry Manilow and caps it off with public service.
Fuck that. We shouldn't be imprisoning people just to gain intelligence. Prove a crime was committed and punish them, or do not detain them. To do otherwise runs contrary to the entire set of principles on which the USA was founded.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Try 8 hours of server room fans, 5 days a week. Heaven forbid the AC goes out and they bring in the Hollywood-sized fans.
They're all civilians.
The ones picked within the US can be charged in a civilian court, deported, or both. That's it.
Those picked up on the battlefield have done absolutely nothing wrong. If you invade a country, the civilians there have every right to attack your soldiers. That's war, sweetheart.
If you don't like it, don't wage it. Imprisoning people for defending their homes is not on.
Yes because Iraq attacked us on 9/11 right, right? I know God loves us all, but I bet he is a bit ashamed of you. Educate yourself and learn to be tolerant, otherwise you will still be the same Anonymous Coward you are right now, afraid to even let your identity be known when you spew this foul shit. You are surely a very unhappy person.
They're not criminals (or "terrorists") unless you convict them of something. What part of "presumption of innocence" do you not understand?
the gov'ment has the correct licensing for the tunes they are using? Last time I checked, ASCAP/BMI gets kind of pissed off when you use a CD you bought at Wally-world in your coffee shop. Something about it only being licensed for private home use. Me thinks Gitmo is neither private, nor home, for anyone there. Ergo, the artists should sue under the notion that the the Gov't is using their IP illegally. Of course, they run the risk of ending up in a cell right next to Osama's assistants, but it might be worth a shot. Might be interesting to see if the RIAA is willing to bite the other hand that feeds.
Put someone's head inside of a bell
And ring it
Eventually,
He will go insane
IS THERE ANY ESCAPE FROM NOISE?
P.S. your post indicates you are utterly ignorant of interrogation methods and should no longer opine on them
Uh, there WAS an insurgency in Iraq.
Keyword: WAS
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
..maybe they should quit bitching and write better music. :)
always mosh clockwise
Good post! Whoever moderated you "Flamebait" is truly an idiot. Yes, I hope you read this, moderator.
/waits for my own Flamebait moderation!!!
Correction:
Hmm.. what's with the the idle section and the quote tags?
The state you are in while your HEAD is detached... - wait, what?
You're talking about the insurgency in the 70's that put Saddam in power right?
Let's get this straight: In 2003 there was an invasion of Iraq by US forces (oh, and a smattering of allies, woo!) Since then there has been an occupation of Iraq by those same forces. One of the first actions of the occupying force was to disband the Iraqi army. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers were told to go home. Their pay severed. For a while they tried to get jobs but, due to the widely publicized incompetence of the occupying forces, there was no jobs to be had. The looting and destruction of both private and public property was tolerated and ignored by the occupying forces. National treasures that had been preserved over millennia were destroyed. Seeing that their country was being systematically reduced to rubble they formed a militia and began fighting to remove the occupying force.
This is not insurgency. If someone invaded your country, fired the government, fired the military and replaced it with nothing you'd rise up and try to eject them too. If you didn't, you'd hardly be a patriot.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I think someone forgot this part:
Keyword: WAS
The worst is over in Iraq. Sorry, if that hurts your anarchofreedomunist leanings.
Saddam wasn't replaced with nothing. Also, they've hired back and trained many of the people in the military that were let go. Iraq has an army. Iraq has a government. Hell, Iraq's government is already playing hardball with our government, which is a good thing really (or a well placed charade).
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Length of time has nothing to do with what information prisoners have. John Dramesi was imprisoned and tortured regularly in Vietnam, and he was beaten to near-death multiple times in addition to several other horrible acts without revealing critical information. Look him up sometime or read his book "code of honor". he's an amazing man and is just one example of how long people can hold out under duress.
except none of the "residents" of gitmo are actual terrorists by the army's own admitting. Most were "enemy combatants" picked up for shooting at soldiers during the invasion or turned in under "reward" programs as knowing info about the terrorists. Most have learned more intel about terrorist ops inside gitmo and from the interrigators than they knew on the outside. The majority are just street thugs who were pushed into harassing soldiers by actual terrorists... more dangerous guys will be looting the streets after the next Superbowl. Reality is that they can't let them go because the broke about a dozen US an international laws.. and got zero intelligence from it... worse than that, those guys will go back and be heroes for their cause... and know all the people we are actually looking for to tell them to go hide. Then the failure of the army will be complete.
That said I think this is more about artist royalties. Using the songs in that manner counts as public performance and they are on US property, therefore they need to pay artists for the songs being played. If we're not going to pay the artists that provide tools for war, we could save a bunch of money not paying for expensive planes... paying people to torture isn't cheap, they are generally high priced. If we don't pay them then we won't leave a paper trail either. Besides it's illegal to pay people in Cuba anyway, some of that money may leak out to the Cuban economy.
Here's the solution... RIAA lawyers in Gitmo!!!
how can torturing people be funny to you? what kind of society just accepts torture as an everyday part of life? how can you make jokes about it? torture is wrong. pause.... think... repeat.... torture is wrong. as in evil bad terrible.
whoa there, you're using militia in a second amendment way.... this is Iraq, not the USA, that doesn't apply there.
Funny thing about war is that according to Geneva convention "citizens" don't really have the right to rebuild their society... their GOVERNMENT has that right. According to Geneva, citizens do not have the right to overthrow a government, the Declaration of Independence is not actually a legal document the US government has to follow, just some pretty words. Geneva is all about what GOVERNMENTS with armies can do (remember it dates from precedents from the middle ages, we're all still technically serfs) citizens are "owned" by their boarders. It's illegal to commit war crimes against residents, if they follow all the rules during the war, and while it's a "war". At this time the war is over.. sort of.. because they have a government that is recognized by somebody else, now those militias are just terrorists again..because the new government says so. so it's open season, just like when Saddam gassed the Kurds for rebellion (which was legal, they committed open rebellion just like when Sherman torched Atlanta, and there's plenty of precedent to do the same thing on US soil.. look what we did/do to Indians)
This is basically our ever-so-slightly-sterilized version of The Ludovico Technique from A Clockwork Orange. We're using it against people never convicted, never tried, never even given a chance to explain themselves to anyone who hadn't already dehumanized them to the label of "terrorist". Yes, this is torture.
We should be better than this.
Much of the music is picked specifically for sleep deprivation, played loud, all the time, to prevent sleeping, much of it is also considered religiously offensive, if they understood english. As "american rock music" they are forcing them to commit sin, according to Islam, every day.
What if we got anti-abortion activists (religious terrorists sympathizers) pregnant just so we could abort them to harvest stem cells as part of their prison "work"? It's just a medical procedure to save lives like donating blood right?
The closest I can compare it too was years ago during a Paranoia RPG session when the brilliantly sadistic GM insisted on playing the "Happy Happy, Joy Joy" song on repeat during the entire indoor portion of the adventure. To re-create the Computer's optimal "Happy Troubleshooter Environment" (tm)
7 Hours, 41 minutes.
Dear God, the horror...
Well, we could:
1. Follow the Geneva conventions, because we want to not get our asses laughed at when we bitch about people torturing OUR citizens.
2. Not imprison people based on shaky intelligence.
3. Make torture illegal.
Why can't we do things the good old-fashioned way, where you could torture people, and if you got found out, you'd get shit-canned? That would be awesome.
Please stop stalking me, bro.
"It will feature minutes of silence during concerts and festivals..."
It's been done. I just hope they pay the royalties.
"Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
Sue the US Army for playing the song in a public venue without compensating the artists, producers, or record companies. DMCA their asses.
Many tortures don't actually sound that bad or even seem that bad at first. It's the repetition and lack of assurance that it will ever end that makes it torture.
You're also forgetting that none of these people have received a trial. It's nearly inconceivable that out of that many people detained, not one of them is innocent. Those that are innocent have no confession to make and no secrets to keep. Shall we prove we're no more civilized than the Inquisition? Torture them until they make up a confession? I suppose then they'll be imprisoned for lying?
I guess he thinks Bush deserves inhumane treatment, while terrorists who rape, kill, murder, based on religion and political beliefs, deserve humane treatment.
Unless and until found guilty in a court of law, they are alleged terrorists. If nothing else, their presumed innocence calls for humane treatment.
Why not?
Perhaps because they were sent to gitmo so that US law would not apply, regardless of court decisions since, this was an enclave deliberately created to allow the US to commit acts thaat would be illegal in the US itslef.
Gitmo has destroyed the image the US once had as a country that beleved in fairness and the rule of law.
I want to be remembered as having lived during a time of greatness and good virtue, not insolence.
A time of greatness and good virtue? When was there ever such a time?
What you want is not relevant. Reality is that in this world of 6.7 billion people you are nobody. In all likelihood you will not be remembered unless you manage to go out and cause as much human misery and cause as many people to be killed as did your namesake.
Despite the despicable troll mod you are spot on sir.
Truth hurts.
So glad you have proof that the Guantanamo prisoners are terrorists. The rest of America is busy scrambling to find that proof.
Today was the sixtieth anniversary of the signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which makes your point even sharper. Sixty years ago people across the globe had the humanity and decency to declare that humans have inalienable rights, not to be deprived by any individual or government. Today there are still people -- Americans, even -- who believe that the need for governments to extract information trumps the rights of the individual. Is this what we've become in sixty years? A culture of guilt by association, xenophobia, and cruelty?
The use at Gitmo doesn't sound like "private performances" and sounds much more like "public performances" in the sense they are being done to further the organizations' goals, and not for private appreciation.
The artists involved may well have a copyright violation suit to press. Unlike patents, I do not believe the USGov has a royalty-free use of copyrighted materials.
Fuck you racist moron. Your solution should be used, but only on you.
I think Bush deserves all that and worse. He is responsible for many more deaths than any of the terrorists.
If this was applied to you I suspect you would quickly change your juvenille view of torture.
Lets see the proof of your accusations about the Gitmo inmates, the list of convictions, the evidence- oh thats right there is none.
So you approve of torture of people who are suspected of terroism. without any proof.
Ah Truth, Justice and what used to be the American way.
Yes, I completely agree that there is some reason they are doing. I decline to agree that it's simple brutality and a love of torture.
If I torture you and I don't enjoy doing it, does that make it ok?
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
This comment section is predictably useless.
Given how Metalica is held in such high esteem in these parts I thought it should be pointed out that Metallica, number one on the Gitmo playlist with Enter Sandman, liked the idea. They thought it was cool their music was scary and were happy to help ... uh ... protect the ... can't remember but they were happy.
Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
One of the first actions of the occupying force was to disband the Iraqi army. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers were told to go home.
Not quite. The Iraqi army effectively disbanded itself. They simply went home.
The looting and destruction of both private and public property was tolerated and ignored by the occupying forces.
Not quite. The Iraqi army effectively disbanded itself. They simply went home.
No.. they were standing ready.. by executive order they were disbanded.
..and exactly what would you have had the US forces do and to what level of force would have had them use? There wasn't enough forces available to protect all of that property.
Gee, I fucking wonder why?!!
How we know is more important than what we know.
There may never have been a time of greatness and good virtue. And if there was, we (all 6.7 billion of us) have probably mostly forgotten it. You're right about that.
I'll be remembered, though, by my children. If I'm lucky, my grandchildren will also remember me. And if I'm really playing my cards right and live long enough, my great grandchildren will also remember me.
That's enough fame for me. It's plenty of reason for me to always try to be fair, just, and to aspire for greatness, no matter how insignificant, and no matter the cost.
Feel free to disagree. We're not married; do as you will.
Kid-proof tablet..
America was never meant to be a shining beacon of light to the world, you should take a look at the early history of the United States. America was formed due to the collective interests of those on its shores, not as a social experiment to serve as a guide to the world. Its only our success and relative prosperity that have elevated us to such a position.
You're seriously complaining about foreigners jumping in on your war in a foreign country?
The US attempted to reconstitute the army after realizing that releasing the only natives with combat training and no source of income could effectively serve as the army AND were often the perpetrators of the looting. WHAT A SURPRISE. It wasn't a matter of trying to protect everything, it was a matter of the US destabilizing the country on multiple levels. The news is old, you should have kept track.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
>>>>>>What if we got anti-abortion activists (religious terrorists sympathizers) pregnant just so we could abort them to harvest stem cells as part of their prison "work"? It's just a medical procedure to save lives like donating blood right?
I can think of two better ways to deal with them:
1.Get them pregnant and count how many will change their tune about abortion.
2.Get them to sign to a list, then if some other woman does not want the child, but is persuaded no to abort it (but still does not want it), give the child to those activists to raise.
What if a criminal has kidnapped your family and he also said that unless you meet his demands they will die in 2 days (because there is not enough air or water wherever he put them). However, the criminal was captured by the police. the police gives you a choice of what to do with him. What would you do:
1. Be nice to him, and politely ask where he has put them (he does not tell you)?
2. Give him a fair trial, which could last months (and your family has 2 days left)?
3. Beat it out of him?
Now, if a terrorist has placed a bomb somewhere, would you torture him to find out the location?
Until scientists create a device that can extract information directly from the brain, torture is the most effective method available. And when such a device is created, torture as a information extraction tool will be deprecated, and the new device will be used instead. Though torture as a punishment for severe crimes will still be used hopefully.
Yes you are right... I guess those people who died because of terrorist attack... well, I am sure that they will rest in peace better knowing that we are spending money keeping the rights of these animals up. I say that the only way to wage war on terrorists is by showing them just what you are capable of.
Just as a side note here. Check wikipedia on the longest period with out sleep. I think it is somewhere around 33 years. Now I think that if you were sleeping 8 hours a day as the original article mention, that is not sleep depreivation. The actual definition is going WITHOUT sleep. Not limiting.
It is bleeding heart liberals like yourself, who think that being tough on crime equates to "reducing ourselves to their level" mentality that keeps othering thinking that we as westerners are weak. Tell you what my friend. Why don't you head over to Afganastan and go hug yourself a I.E.D.
First, both your examples are strawmen. We're talking about Gitmo.
Do you really think any of Gitmo's incarcerated have an undetonated bomb ticking away about to blow up? Of course not, hell, it took more than few days to get them to Gitmo in the first place from where they were arrested/captured. If this was a 'ticking bomb' situation, the bombs would have exploded before they ever got there. And that was YEARS ago... why are they STILL there?
What if a criminal has kidnapped your family and he also said that unless you meet his demands they will die in 2 days (because there is not enough air or water wherever he put them). However, the criminal was captured by the police. The police gives you a choice of what to do with him. What would you do:
1. Be nice to him, and politely ask where he has put them (he does not tell you)?
2. Give him a fair trial, which could last months (and your family has 2 days left)?
3. Beat it out of him?
A classic, but its a fantasy. The odds of this actually happening are absurdly remote.
1) This devious psychotic mythical kidnapper who puts his victims into elaborate slow death traps would have instructed me not to call the police, and would have me under surveillance. The moment the police were involved he'd kill the victims and flee in his flying nuclear submarine.
2) If the kidnapper is a killer they're probably already dead.
3) The kidnapper may not be working alone. Even if the police catch one, he may not know the location, or they may be moved by the other kidnappers, once they realize the plan has gone askew.
4) Finally, and most importantly, the police brought me a suspect; in the real world there is no guarantee it is the kidnapper at all. How hard should I beat on someone who might be completely innocent? Ok to slap him around a bit? What about taking a bat to his knees? Cutting off his fingers? Vivisecting him?
Now, if a terrorist has placed a bomb somewhere, would you torture him to find out the location?
Same as above, how do I know I'm torturing a terrorist instead of some innocent bystander?
Until scientists create a device... ...torture is the most effective method available.
Tell me, just how well does it work on innocent bystanders?
If someone plants a bomb in an area your kid is staying... and the police pick him up as a suspect... how much torture do you think it would be reasonable to use on him?
As I understand it, these are enemy combatants who were captured on the battlefield and are now being subjected to mild forms of torture.
We routinely and uncontroversially drop BOMBS on enemy combatants. Remember bombs? When someone is standing at ground zero and a bomb goes off, they are vaporized instantly. Most people are not at ground zero. They're 50 or 100 yards away. They don't die right away.
War is all about doing unpleasant things to enemy combatants (and whoever's standing near them). If you object to all war, or to this particular war, then fine, object to the war. Maybe what we're doing in Guantanamo and Abu Graib has no real intel value; in that case it's gratuitous and we should stop. I leave that to the soldiers and their commanders to decide. But to make moral claims about one particular tactic, against the backdrop of a war, seems like pissing in the wind. When wading in a cesspool, don't stop to sort the floaters. Just get out as fast as you can.
>>I guess we should just not try to extract any information from prisoners. Forget the whole "intelligence" thing.
Okay, I'll barge in your home and drag you to my cellar then keep extracting intelligence from you till your anus bleeds.
I have exactly as much right to do so, and exactly as many clues that you actually possess this information. And I will not stop till you tell me all I want to know.
I expect to receive all the admissions to everything I suspect you for, in the process, proving my actions were right too. Primary reason being I think people like you mean danger to me.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Wow, you're really retarded. If we had the evidence that was submissible in court, not classified, and not obfuscated by a cunning and evil adversary, then it would be easy to prosecute these people. However, the real world isn't like CSI: Miami. These are people nabbed in a combat zone, who are aware of our stringent rules of evidence and use that against us. They shoudl be hung as enemies of humanity, the same way pirates are, but international law hasn't caught up to that yet.
When someone is upon another country, the jurisdiction overlay of administrative proceedings for offences derived between rented property under lease (crime) does not apply because the matter has received export customarily; there is no crime, and the matter rests in the jurisprudence of the country where the property was brought into. Looking to how U.S. Congress has not ACTUALLY declared war on any country, and that U.S. Congress has not the right to transfer its grant or a fraction of it to any person to cause declared war in commercial interests, consider the fact that agencies of a corporation are sent overseas to secure a civil presence by encampment and with their occupation do they wage a war not by the United States but constantly harass their new fellow countrymen using the international conduct of the civilians purview. It makes sense how U.S. NAVY, being outside of the United States will be a corporation created in Cuba to use Cuban civil rights and maintain said legal civilian character for the purposes of its charter over Cuba: Fidel Castro can't seize a lawful renter, they've done nothing wrong by Cuba standards and even local(true state) review. In this regard, all that crap of needing to declare war is antiquated when employees of a corporation can lie about the matter and manners before them from someone that doesn't like the occupation. It's no different than a protester that hates all process-food/fast-food walking into McDonald's and he's called a guest or customer and not a protester; so he is deterred from protest by the clerk lying about his right to protest the unsafe quality of food: customers can't protest.
What us continentals realize is that it makes more sense to look at all the world in diversity to know that corporations run by the most wicked people from our country have forfeit their citizenship so as to acknowledge that they no longer dwell in a city of the United States (hence, they're not a citizen). A corporation conducting business overseas, harassing foreign populations using libel of review from its office, has been happening to every fellow from postal patrons to suitors. What we continentals are not to neglect is our guiding Angel with the Ink Well: the public notary, whom in that office alone is authorized and unhindered by the court to record all defaults and carry an independent and official notarial Protest that no business is to be conducted by any relative of the creditor until the breach in character is mended. In this, the false army masquerading as employees in a corporation U.S. ARMY, and the merchandise and employees of U.S. NAVY will be expired of its rent to civil habitations and encampments along the countrysides and splits between citadels no different than the unschooled brutish HighSchool-student slaver that they truly have become in their pederast form of recruit.
Lovers of America? Are you mad enough to force foreigners to not love Romania as much as America? Are you mad enough to not acknowledge that it is as though weaponized men and women have disobeyed their allegiance to America and have gone overseas to declare allegiance to another principality just to attain civil authority, outiside of the view of Customs and District Court? They set sale a long time ago. They're foreigners, and your advocacy of them is no different than making allegiance to wherever they reside in Iraq or Cuba.
Those two corporations, incompetent of any duties under the pens Armies of the united States and Navies of the united States, are not continental. They were formed in Iraq and Cuba, they are international and recognized by GATT to all their employees to carry private Social Security account Numbers on their ID cards to acknowledge the social structure of their civil nature. Army doesn't use ID other than by the clan whom township the man hails from as to prove his allegiance to life, wife, then kin in that order of fuck (or fucking order if you will). Those two corporations are performing LIBEL OF REVIEW daily; they recognize the charter of their corporations alone has having retained police power, detention power, and remedy power because they are not at war: they are civil in nature, and even if you look into the foundation of the American Colonies to the untied States that civil character is retained to the reservation of all rights to decide what arms to hold and the issue to whomever may hear it. As well, a federal corporation known as "United States" from District of Columbia has been squatting on that American and Columbian and Californian soil for so long to deprive the native people here from their civil authority just so it can license and tax whomever by a pretended participation in the choice by the natives fooled into benefits(citizenship) of membership.
Get a clue already. No allegiance, no liability. Declaration of Independence needs to be signed and notarized in order for it to be acknowledged in a court of Law; no native has done that except maybe one of those Freemen of Montana that everyone in the news corporations called a cult member.
The "I Love You" song? Pffff...that's kids stuff! If they really wanted to torture, they'd play the song that never ends. It goes on and on, my friends....
Sure - so let's start with you. You might have done something wrong, and since we are evidently in agreement that we don't those pesky courts, report yourelf to Guantanamo for indefinite detention, and listening to music. According to you, that's no hardship at all.
I don't think they have Internet access in Guantanamo btw, so I don't expect to see you posting here again.
Erm... wasn't the US founded by a bunch of white christian fundamentalists who were determined to wipe out the funny dark-skinned people with their non-christian beliefs and strange incomprehensible language?
Mod me troll if you like -- doesn't make it any less true....
...allow me to assert that you must be from the South, being that you're inbred as far as you are. ... I'll bet your sister is your favorite aunt, and the lazy-eyed kids you two have together must sure be special. ...I want to be remembered as having lived during a time of greatness and good virtue, not insolence.
Good luck avoiding the insolence thing.
-- "Oh. This guy again."
your ignorance is showing. The us supreme court does not here original cases. and thats only the tip of the ignorance iceberg
"He who fights monsters must take care lest he become a monster. When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes into you."
u r an uninformed retard, as with all armys arab or albiet muslim the good or even decent soldiers are outnumbered 10,000 to 1.
In the mideast they have been operating on a scale of untold corruption, officers were relatives or cronies. the wonderful military acadmey they attended were the prestigious Baghdad Camel University, or Saddam Our Wonderful Great Leader Who Opposes The Great Satan University or any other wonderful institution arab college. the horrible atrocity the us soldiers committed were all proven to be lies spread by the communist media, and their liberal lackeys, we barbarically of course humiliated the murderous terrorists by making them were women underwear, listen to heavy metal, had dogs keep the fear of allah in them all in the pretense of finding the "wonderful praise allah minions" who were planting bombs killing thousands of innocent iraqi men, women and children and our brave troops. while they cut off the heads of innocent people on live internet. still available for download today!!! BE GLAD U HAVE THE FREEDOM TO WHINE. IF U DON"T LIKE IT MOVE TO IRAQ AND TALK THEM DOWN UR SELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You may be right, but USA labels itself as that to the rest of the world, you guys even beleive you have the God given right to be the freaking policemen of the world.
You guys, the president you elected for 8 years (wasn't 4 enought to see how much of a monster was him?) and specially your army are the real terrorists of the world.
No, they're terrorists because we picked them up planting IEDs, attempting to blow up our buddies with a cell phone rigged to a couple of artillary shells buried in the road(totally uncaring about any true civilian casualties they may inflict), hiding in the back of a mini-van sniping at US/Coalition/Iraqi troops or sometimes just ordinary civilians out buying groceries.
You want to sit there and say we're all brain washed idiots who believe what ever the media, or 'the man' tell us, but you're guilty of the same exact BS. Counter-culture media tells you that every person in US custody is an innocent civilian, who's just persecuted unjustly by the big bad US military.
Are their people in US military custody who are completly innocent? Victims of being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Of course there are. Should we make sure that everyone receives fair treatment? Definatly, but don't sit there and think for a second that the majority of people held in US custody are innocents, or even that the majority of their attacks are carried out on US targets. Many times these people have attacked innocent civilians, oftentimes getting paid for each death they inflict, simply to cause chaos.
You don't like the term terrorist but what else should we call them? They aren't soldiers. Soldiers don't go around attacking the people they're supposed to be fighting to protect. They certainly aren't 'patriots' or 'freedom fighters'. Patriots don't blow up their countrymen for a couple of bucks. Freedom fighters don't blow up a Mosque with innocent people worshiping in it, or plant a bomb in a crowded market place whose primary target is women and children.
So please before you start preaching that the kettle is black, make sure you aren't a pot, and try to have some respect for the folks who put their lives out their everyday in this war.
That's actually not as crazy as it sounds. We keep talking about how these haters are "brain washed" to hate America and western values... Just brainwash them to the other side.
Dear Sir,
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Signed,
Fellow Psychopath
Musicians are attention whores to begin with. That's a given. ,found fame by promoting a crack smoking thief and murderer as a downtrodden underdog and poor Indian to a generation too stoned and stupid to learn the facts from anywhere but Mtv. Leonard Peltier thanks them. ,when some South Americans with some common sense took care of the problem permanently.
When you put a song out there for the public,the public may do whatever they want with it. It's sound morons.
Even if they choose to profit from your song, you will only get a royalty.
HOWEVER...
If you want the general public to remember you,think about you,discuss you, you've got to cause a stir.
You can cause a stir by latching on to whatever crybaby activist cause seems to be popular at the moment and espouse it as dear to your heart in a loud ostentatious way.
Then the press can grab hold of it and continue to spread the disinformation with your face as a figurehead. Instant self promotion and all you had to pay was some dignity.
Tom Morello as a mediocre musician along with his band "Mediocrity in the Machine" for instance
Tom Morello is a poor guitarist who needs fame to continue his existence and lifestyle in a manner to which he is accustomed and will continue to whore himself to any wacko commie cause that causes a stir to make up for his lack of imagination and practice. Who cares what he thinks? He is still trying to convince the world that Che Guevara was more than a f*ck-up and embarrassment to Cuban Communism that was sent on a fools errand to get him out of the picture
Honestly folks, the last and only band that ever had any right to sing about political unrest without being stupid hippies was "The Clash" . Everyone else after that was just inept johnny-come-latelys looking for fame in already trodden territory. No imagination or talent necessary.
I protest a music industry that spreads more disinformation than network news.
I applaud and support our armed forces protecting the freedom of these morons with their own music.
Someday I will talk to Tom Morello and he will ask me," Do you want fries with that?"
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
"And what would be the determinable time for murder, terrorism, rape, etc?"
.
A 300 grain .44 magnum bullet travels at 1500ft/sec. Assuming the 'criminals' are less than a foot away, then the determinable time is ~6.66e-4 seconds.
You're talking about the insurgency in the 70's that put Saddam in power right?
Let's get this straight: In 2003 there was an invasion of Iraq by US forces (oh, and a smattering of allies, woo!) Since then there has been an occupation of Iraq by those same forces. One of the first actions of the occupying force was to disband the Iraqi army. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers were told to go home. Their pay severed. For a while they tried to get jobs but, due to the widely publicized incompetence of the occupying forces, there was no jobs to be had. The looting and destruction of both private and public property was tolerated and ignored by the occupying forces. National treasures that had been preserved over millennia were destroyed. Seeing that their country was being systematically reduced to rubble they formed a militia and began fighting to remove the occupying force.
This is not insurgency. If someone invaded your country, fired the government, fired the military and replaced it with nothing you'd rise up and try to eject them too. If you didn't, you'd hardly be a patriot.
by the sound of it, you've been no where near of the things you're talking about. you're just spewing back what your liberal media overlords fed you. looks like you ate it up with a grin, too. nice to be a critic of something you are so far detached from it hardly affects your life, huh? i'm pretty sure you wouldn't be one of those that formed a militia to 'eject' the occupying force.
besides the abolishing of the army was a political move to remove the new army's connection to the old regime. otherwise it it'd be like using the stazi in east germany as the new police force when it was unified with west germany. how many east germans would be comfortable with that?
Because we all know, when our own soldiers get taken, they get treated to a lifetime of spa treatments, and milk and cookies...it is great for someone like you to complain about how the system runs without making any contribution to actually changing it.
"I love you. You love me and we're a happy family ..."
There, fixed that for you.
Hearing loss is a gradual linear progression. We all suffer hearing loss with age linearly. That's one of the reasons that teenagers can have ring tones at frequencies that only they can hear. If you ramp up the sound exposure to an extreme, you'll also ramp up the hearing loss. There is no two ways about it. This treatment may not be enough to deafen prisoners in one go, but it is no doubt accelerating their hearing loss to a certain degree.
To which degree? I won't speculate, but I'm just upset that this long-term damage may be one more thing that we American people may have to pay for.
Your post implies that they're not using other means of torture. They are, or at least, they have been. Also, they have been sending some of those prisoners to those other countries you speak of.
If I was a musician, and even if my music was only used as a secondary means to soften up those prisoners before the real torture begins, I would still be upset about it. I know I probably wouldn't win in a court of law, but at least I'd use my fame to bring as much attention to it as possible.
While I agree with your conclusions about the causes of the current situation in Iraq your assertion that it isn't an insurgency is incorrect. The definition of insurgency is the state or condition of being in revolt or insurrection. Regardless of the whether you regard the insurgency as justified or not its still an insurgency. Also Saddam didn't come to power in an insurgency - which implies some extended period of revolt. Saddam executed a palace coup against Bakr in 79 (he was the Deputy President at the time), Bakr came to power in a coup 11 years before that - they were not populist uprisings, but coups effected by soldiers and other government officials. If you are going argue over semantics you really ought get the semantics right, because your failure to properly define the words you are arguing about undermines you basic position that the Iraqi's are justly rebelling against their oppressors.
Sigh. A "coup" is an act of "insurgency". If you're a citizen of country X and you overthrow the legitimate government of country X then you are an insurgent. My objection is to the bastardized usage of the word in the media to refer to militia men try to eject an occupying force in their country.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Seems to me if the attackers had followed the rule of law they wouldn't be outside of it and we'd have an enemy that could be easily identified and destroyed.
Instead they decided to dress like civilians, enter countries illegally, fight for a cause outside of govern.. Nevermind, you stupid liberals will never get it.
Just hope you're not on the subway when six or eight idiots decide to suicide bomb it.
Let alone free citizenship. Now POWs not only get trials, they get greencards!
Funny how new rules apply to America that no country has ever extended to POWs.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Great lawsuit. Because shooting them or spending billions of dollars on some other non-lethal option (which will still probably turn out to be very painful or potentially lethal) is so much better than just playing some music.
If they win, I can't wait to hear the press conference... "We had the building surrounded but had no non-lethal options available to effect the hostage rescue, so we just went in and shot everyone."
Oh, like 'life in prison'. Yea, good idea.
What exactly are you doing to prevent these injustices? Posting a flame on slashdot? You fucking soap box, lord of the pulpit, protectors of justice... what have you done lately?
Study up on the terrorists who founded this country then. They are at war with us, they are POW's if anything. Which means they have rights and are to be treated a certain way according to the geneva convention.
If we are at war, then who are we at war with? An enemy, which means they are POW's.
Keep calling it a war, and keep calling "them" terrorists. Words mean everything, read your Orwell.
Do you expect the people living in a country we invaded and are occupying to sit idly by?
What would you do if chinese troops marched down your street and tried to "free" you? Would you defend your friends and family in any way you could? Try to put yourself in their shoes for once.
Again, read up on the tactics used by american revolutionaries, or the underground resistance in nazi occupied europe, or the vietnam war. Its war, bad shit happens.
Or you could stop calling it a war.
As for the despicable acts committed against innocent civilians - read up on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Want to talk about bombing schools, churches and women and children?
You're missing the sarcasm gene. Perhaps, some day, medical science will be able to fix that for you.
Until then, good luck out there.
Kid-proof tablet..
AntiHero here, as a Musician, I wouldnt wish any Inmate to be forced to endure my music, how terribly cruel you would have to be to force that on another human being.
And so, enjoy my god-awful torture music at www.myspace.com/thesmokersclub
In fact that's the sole content of your post.
I guess we should just not try to extract any information from prisoners. Forget the whole "intelligence" thing. We shouldn't spy, we shouldn't use "torture."
Given the chance, the Founding Fathers would communally piss on your grave for violating the vision for which they would willingly have given their lives.
I guess he thinks Bush deserves inhumane treatment,
You are correct. He is provably responsible for more deaths than any 100 detainees at Guantanamo.
BTW, has anyone noticed the guys with the fake big balls always call it gitmo, whereas those of us who respect life and the true American ethic always call it Guantanamo, with or without the "Bay"? Just a little clue to picking out the pud-thumpers who think it makes them look mean-ass.
and he predictably calls you names instead of debating.
If you even attempted to inform yourself enough in the issue, you'd know that Geneva gives less protections to the unlawful combatant status than to the POW. The point of Geneva is carrot and stick. Sign the Convention, and abide by it, get all of its protections. Don't sign and/or commit warfare outside of its requirements, you don't get the vast majority of its protections.
Anyone who would say an unlawful combatant should be treated better than a POW certainly doesn't have Geneva or history or law in his side. Not to mention the moral hazard of actually encouraging combatants (and countries, by supporting terrorists) to violate Geneva since unlawful combatants will be treated better than POWs!
But of course you don't really want a good faith debate. If Congress had formally declared war in this conflict (which should have no impact anyway, since the war declaration clause was meant as a check on the president, not as a check on warfare itself), you'd still find something to complain about. This isn't about procedure, it's about substance, since you hate:
1) America
2) Bush
3) The "War on Terror"
4) All of the above
(pick one).
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you