Slashdot Mirror
Karl Rove's IT Guru Dies In Small Plane Crash
A dozen readers have submitted the story of the death in a plane crash of Mike Connell, Karl Rove's IT adviser, the man who set up and ran the gwb43.com mail server, and an important figure in GOP tech circles since 1997. The closest thing to straight reporting to be found in a mainstream media outlet is a piece from KDKA in Pittsburgh giving a detailed backgrounder on Connell's work for Rove, two generations of the Bush family, and many GOP congressmen and committees. CBSNews.com is now mirroring the KDKA reporting. Almost all the early media coverage comes from the left and some of it is frankly conspiratorial. Among the milder pieces (although it could not be called balanced) is this interview with Mark Crispin Miller, NYU professor and author of two books about the 2004 election in Ohio. Connell was compelled to testify on the day before the US election in a lawsuit involving Ohio election irregularities in 2004. Connell, an experienced pilot, died on Sunday when his plane crashed two miles short of the runway of Akron-Canton Airport in Ohio.
Does anyone really think this was an accident?</tinfoil-hat>
But seriously, if anyone knew "too much," this guy could qualify.
Start a happiness pandemic
:c
GOP is dead
Thanks, GWB, for all the fish. And dead soldiers. And trillions of debt.
Stay in touch, don't be a stranger.
- USofA
How convenient.
I think we all know the lesson here, people. If you're going to step on powerful people's toes, DON'T FLY YOUR OWN AIRPLANE!!!
men. Sorry - Had to! ;)
Seriously. Screw Balance. Don't kowtow to some asshole who disagrees with you just because he says you're not reporting fairly. Know your biases, know them well, and know how to counteract them. As for the readers, know your biases and know or at least anticipate the author's biases.
"Balance" is for people who want to be heard, even when they know they're lying. It's for people with persecution complexes who have no business having them. "Balance" is reporting that Wall Street needs $700 billion, but auto workers are paid too much. "Balance" is promoting two sides as equal when they're not, or promoting two sides when an issue is more complex than that.
How many times have we IT people complained about unfair, ill-informed, hyped, or spun news articles about us? Why is this exact same tactic on the front page here? "Almost all the media coverage comes from the left and some of it is frankly conspiratorial." Marginalization and a thinly veiled ad-hominem attack? When did slashdot start culling from the mainstream?
"Balance" is bullshit, truth is paramount.
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
Because it's always just a conspiracy theory.
No need to investigate anything. Nobody has a reason to want this guy dead or anything. And lordy lordy the government would NEVER do anything unethical or illegal.
When a mouse in a house full of cats dies, the simpler explanation isn't that he suddenly lost the will to live.
The Razor is for simplicity. Your need to reaffirm your faith in the humanity of those in power is irrelevant.
So if Ohio went for Kerry would we have gotten Obama?
>It was later learned that
>Ohio Secretary of State
>Kenneth Blackwell's office
>had routed Internet traffic
>from county election offices
>through out-of-state servers
>based at SMARTech in
>Chattanooga, Tenn.
>SMARTech hosts dozens of GOP Web domains.
I can't see any positive way to spin this.
Karma: It's not just a good idea. It's the law.
Condolences to his family and friends. No matter what you think of someone's politics, its always sad when someone dies.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Clearly anyone who questions this is a CONSPIRACY NUT. No one could ever pull off a murder and get away with it like that. The CIA and the FBI are far too good.
**sarcasm** No no no nOoooo. It was Global WARMING! Take that you evil republicans! **sarcasm**
Life is not for the lazy.
It has to be caused by all this global warming.
The newest article posted on Ninjalistics (your leading supplier of ISO 9000-compliant corporate espionage and assassination services) is, "Six additional political operatives die in separate accidents unrelated to Karl Rove."
... I hope no worthwhile human beings died in the crash.
Seriously, wtf is up with this write-up? This story barely qualifies as Slashdot material (apparently if you work in IT, your death is now Slashdot-worthy). On top of that, kdawson uses it as an incredibly flimsy pretext to slam the mainstream media for no apparent reason. Christ man, this discussion is already destined to devolve into the same old political flamewar 90% of every other discussion around here ends up in without you trying to actively stoke the fires by taking the opportunity to slam the "left wing media".
I know kdawson loves conspiracy theories, so I'll give him my conspiracy theory: kdawson only has a job because Slashdot needs the tax breaks they get for hiring mentally challenged people. This would also explain samzenpus.
I was cheering so hard when I saw "Karl Rove" and "Dies" - then the words in between just ruined my Christmas.
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
Conspiracy theory angle? Check.
Coming from the crazy wing of the left? Check. (Why can't we have more crazy wing of the right stories on Slashdot? Where are all the stories concerning the gold standard? Where?)
Write-up worded in a way to encourage crazy conspiracy talk? Check.
Good ol' kdawson. So dependable.
Why? I would guess that you do it now. Besides, ppl are not slandering Connel. They are slandering Rove.
False dichotomy.
What is it with people and the assumption that sabotage requires an elaborate chess game complete with blueprints, secret agents, wiretapping, and van full of CIA listening equipment?
It takes one man with a fucking match to burn down a house.
It takes only one mechanic with a desperate need to pay his family's medical bills to snip an important wire.
The author is obviously another right-wing nut who believes that the mainstream media has a "liberal" bias.
Oh and the evil little sh*t who crashed his plane helped many Republicans break Federal record keeping laws. That's a fact.
It's also probably the tip of the iceburg, wait a few years till the investigations get rolling and more Bush-Cheney crimes come to light.
Haven't you all seen Bush tell a reporter why he doesn't use email; "..it might be used in an investigation.."
I'm sure he was an indispensable TOOL for the Fascists who now run the Republican Party.
No decent American would morn his death.
Dramatic exits aren't necessary. If you're unhappy, just go. Not only are there 1000 other sites that might interest you, but the barrier to creating your own site that will please you more is very, very low.
Also, if these types of stories aren't to your liking but others here are, it takes marginal intelligence to disregard them BEFORE clicking.
Dunno why this made it on the front page of Slashdot.
First off, it's old news. Mike Connell died a few days ago, at least someone could have reported it in a timely manner.
Secondly, there's really only two reasons people take much of an interest in Mike Connell. The first is that he developed technology for use in politics. Second is the whole 2004 mess, where he has been accused of voter fraud in Ohio (and allegedly in Florida).
Too much importance is given to Mike Connell and his 'role' in various things. He was a web designer, he ran a technology company, just like me and a lot of people who read Slashdot. The fact that he worked in politics is just another detail about his life (his relationship with teh turdblossom aside). He was also a board member of the American Association of Political Consultants. While listening to him speak could be entertaining, his ideas about ways to use the Internet never really struck me as anything new that hadn't already been done better by someone else.
It just makes me sad that people want to remember him for all these 'scandals' and that his notability is based on innunendo and rumor instead of the actual accomplishments in his life. I mean, I am a Dem and have no love for the man, but it is just rotten to think this is how people choose to remember him. Reducing him to a rumor of some wrongdoing and despising him over his dealings is just another way of dehumanizing the man, and people should be above that.
M
The plane carrying Ron Brown a mountain intersecting....?
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I now believe that assassination is a frequent political tool in America. I thought for years that Castro ordered the death of JFK until I saw the video (possibly now on YouTube) of the film interview with Lyndon Johnson's mistress. I now believe Kennedy was killed by the Rockefellers and Lyndon Johnson. There is much more in the interview, which everyone should see. For some reason it is not being talked about-- probably because years of crackpot "conspiracy theorists" have made even supportable theories about conspiracy suspect.
What Lyndon's mistress has to say is jaw-dropping and highly credible. Of course, for interested parties to deny or combat it would be to promote it, so that's not happening.
This interview gives a picture of American politics I never believed until I heard this straightforward, plain-talking woman. Political murder CAN happen and DOES happen-- often-- in the US. Now I am deeply questioning the official stories about Vince Foster, JFK, and now Mike Connell. Does anyone believe Karl Rove would not stoop to murder? The movie Bush's Brain makes it clear his ruining of opponents caused one or more suicides, yet in threatening to prosecute Connell's wife (for illegal lobbying !!!!!!!!!) (and as much as admitting he can give or withhold presidential pardons) he shows his tactics haven't changed a bit. I now believe Scooter Libby was persuaded to "take the fall" by threats of being ruined and by promises of a pardon if he bit the bullet.
We, the American people, have to wonder about the inadequacies of our political system (or the easy-to-abuse mighty power of the Presidency) that allow these corruptions to happen. I believe that Rove and Cheney are despicable murderers. This "accident" with Connell just proves it. This is what happens when you aren't a good boy like Scooter Libby.
America, we need to look at the issue of political murder and the frequency of its use for advantage.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Figures: the guy who actually KNOWS and can DO stuff gets his ticket punched, and the one who knows NOTHING except how to expertly manipulate people gets a pass.
Atavism: 1
Evolution: 0
Anyone who says this is NOT a conspiracy needs their heads examined.
They're going to have a hard time finding replacements. I don't think I'd want to work in that capacity for the Republican party (just in case).
Fuck you right wing wannabe scientists.
true fact: only the left has scientists now
Karl Rove. Come on, give the guy some credit.
The guy ran oppo for the Republican party. They guy know who to talk to, and how to get information. He has is own databases of personal information on people - check his website and his own polling data.
He is fully capable of doing his own leg work with his own resources.
If *I* know what I would need to do to get the info needed to manipulate only one guy, Karl Rove better know, or the Republican party is overpaying him!
The most obvious thing that points to it being a "convenient accident" is that the guy himself was afraid for his life and his lawyer was trying to get him into witness protection at the time.
Sad but true. It's unfortunately all too easy to make bad things happen with aircraft, cars, and other potentially dangerous machinery(WHY he was even flying in the first place...) Selling your soul and playing with fire... well, these sorts of things do happen. I'd feel sorry for him, but I think he should have known what was going to likely happen to him when he started down this path back then.
Just because lefties think [asinine action of the week] is a righty conspiracy doesn't imply that it's not a conspiracy. And vice versa.
Just because righties deny that [convenient coincidence of the week] is a conspiracy doesn't imply that it is a conspiracy. And vice versa.
And vice versa.
Applying critical thought to what each side says is not unbalanced reporting. Reporters, in general, are in a much better position to connect the dots than is the general public.
Not giving the other side a chance to rebut, on the other hand, is unbalanced reporting. However, the rebuttal does not have to be in the same article. Ideally, there would be N+1 articles, one for each side and one where critical thought is applied.
I'm not saying there is a conspiracy; I don't know, and, at this point, I can't know. I will just say this: if I wanted to kill someone, and the conditions applied, that's what I would use. ... nah I've got nothing on this one.
There is plausible deniability. Small airplanes have a long history of being dangerous to the right people. It just takes a minor tweak in the right place to achieve catastrophic results. Small planes also have a tendency to remain stored in dark, very quiet places for extended periods of time. The only hard part is getting access, but you have all the time you want once you're in, and all the time to come up with a good reason for being there.
It's also more or less guaranteed to result in death if it goes off as planned. No whiny paralyzed burnt victim making a scene about you wanting to get rid of them on 60 Minutes. And AFAIK no black box on small planes. In fact, judging by Steve Fossett's crash site report, there's a fairly good chance that there's not much left to go CSI on.
So I don't know if he was assassinated, but if someone wanted to get him done, that's how they would have done it.
Now let's compare this with 9/11 nutjobs. Ok so zionist republican muslim illuminatis placed tons of explosives in the WTC so that it would go down when two large planes loaded with kerosen would hit them. And thousands of people lie when they say a plane crashed in the Pentagon. Also, even though the plan required a dozen thousand people to keep quiet about it, they managed to keep the details super seecrit, and all the structural engineers who vetted the official version are obviously in on the plot. Also Bush reading my pet goat
Same thing, right?
The few trillions Bush funnelled to his friends at Halliburton and Blackwater, that's gotta have some power, doesn't it?
old news, I'm pretty sure I saw this last week.
Was it sad when Hitler died?
Yeah they are. I'm stating my reasons for leaving. I respect what slashdot was, with REAL debate. Now? Slashkos and GNAA. It's Taco's site and he can say what he wants. But if he's going to let this place become a circus, that's what he's going to end up with.
The executive branch can't spend money. That's congress' job. Which was the point of the comment you responded to.
I know of at least 3 bankers who have committed suicide recently, mostly from those banks whose funds have tanked.
I know a frequent mantra on Slashdot is, "Correlation does not mean causality." But, being that a butt-load of bankers are getting off free for the mess that they have created, and that they are now collecting millions in bonuses from taxpayer money, you might have a needed talent. Can I ask you a favor?
Can you please get to know more bankers?
On the serious side, Credit Suisse announced that their bonuses would be paid out in . . . toxic securities.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
This was definitely an accident. You see, Connell was involved in Rove's secret plot to cut the underwater cables in the Mediterranean, and was flying out to intercept the repair crew when he crashed.
http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2008/12/22
If Ohio went for Kerry, the economy would have gotten blamed on the Democrats.
Yup. The government has little knowledge of the big-stage events. They just jump when told.
But "Brand Democrat" doesn't fit with the popular understanding of economic failure, which is why the Bush crew was summoned to office.
While McCain would have been a total and complete disaster, the Obama presidency actually has me more stressed out. It's like those spooky and upsetting episodes of TNG where Lor showed up and started hurting people while pretending to be Data.
-FL
Tinfoil hat and all, it seems like too big a coincidence. Seems like there is other work out there no matter what the GOP is paying, and most importantly most people do not like being dead.
RTF Summary. KDawson was only one of a dozen or more slashdotters who submitted the story. I've submitted stories before that never ended up on /. and some that ended up being submitted by others with different summaries. I was also surprised that it took this long for the story to show up on /. since it was on the digg front page yesterday and lots of other blogs before then.
Among the milder pieces (although it could not be called balanced)
Balanced reporting is bullshit, because reality is not balanced. For example, the fact that some people think the earth is 6000 years old doesn't imply that the media has to mention this every time they report on some archeological dig. The mere fact that an opinion exists doesn't mean that it's worth reporting.
http://www.cantonrep.com/communities/hartville/x1369587945/Pilot-dies-in-Lake-Township-crash
kdawson posted this story.
Isn't that shocking.
kdawson is reliable in his ways. And so are the denialists. (Denialists? Hmm. I'm still trying to come up with a proper term for people who hate so much the idea that corruption might exist that they warp their minds with so much denial that insanity in the world actually looks sane to them. Ostriches? Idiots? I don't know. I'll post something when I work it out.)
Anyway, we need them, too! What would Slashdot be without the self-deceiving children of emotionally repressed fathers to provide the low benchmarks on the sanity spectrum?
Flat, that's what! --We need sociopaths and retards around here to provide a grim reminder of the dangers of interrupted development in the frontal lobe. Hug your kids today or face nuclear annihilation forty years down the road!
-FL
Is it a "W" or an "M"?
At least he didn't kill anyone on the ground. It seems these small planes are crashing left and right anymore. Most of them are ancient and probably not properly maintained. There's pollution and noise concerns too. This is probably a good time to start discouraging small airplanes or banning them outright.
Madeleine Brown's version of events has been shown to be shaky at best, and an outright fabrication at worst. People she claims were in the room together on particular occasions turned out to be elsewhere for completely unrelated events. Her dates were far off of what should match up with logic. However charming she may have been, accurate she was not.
Murder is a very hard thing to pull off without getting caught, and it's even harder to make things look like an accident. The NTSB will get involved in this crash, and if there's anything out of order, they'll likely find it.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Everyone knows that you don't fly to the Akron-Canton airport. Just ask Thurman Munson, oh wait!
How are you measuring the number of banks? I don't have numbers on the number of bankers (though I suspect that automation has cut down the banker/population ratio significantly), but according to two sources found easily via Google, there were 31,000 banks in the US 1921 and only about 7,200 now. http://bss.sfsu.edu/tygiel/hist427/texts/1920seconomy.htm and http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=636977
If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants have stood on my shoulders. -- Hal Abelson or Jeff Goll
Kay Adams: Do you know how naive you sound, Michael? Presidents and senators don't have men killed.
Michael: Oh. Who's being naive, Kay?
I live near Akron Canton airport. This happened maybe 15 miles from my house.
Most of the land around Akron and North Canton is farmland. There is a sizable Amish and Mennonite population in that area. It's a lot of cleared land and cornfields around AC.
If you were to run out of gas on approach there are dozens of places to set down a single engine airplane. It's mostly cornfields.
That was the part that first struck me about this story. If you knew you wouldn't make the airport...you'd have to be pretty damn unlucky to not find a decent place to set down. With any luck you might even manage an old county access road and salvage the plane.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Which is simpler? One man having an accident, or several, perhaps dozens of people conspiring to fake said accident? Strictly speaking, an accident is still the 'simpler' theory by Occam's definition.
Compartmentalization is the key to managing a massive secret endeavor without anybody knowing enough to even realize they're part of a conspiracy. You only need a couple of guys at the top to know anything real. Anybody else who learns too much, you can always send on trip in a small plane. . .
Anyway, Occam's razor is flawed. --It was an argument designed by a 13th century monk to logically prove the existence of God. In short: Every explanation for anything which ever happens is more complicated and contains more steps than simply saying, "God". Thus, according to Occam's razor, God exists. It's a broken argument and the fact that people in the science community use it is embarrassing enough, but thanks to Jodi Foster, people in the much more densely populated, "Church of Science" use it all the time and actually think it means something other than, "I'm right because I allow the world of possibilities to end where my ignorance begins." AKA, "Bullshit".
Here's another way of looking at it. . .
When you measure the various likelihoods of an event happening via Occam, you are limited to your present data set and knowledge of the world. People have the bloody conceit to assume that things which they do not know about are less likely to exist than things they do know about; which is of course, ego-driven nonsense. A three year-old who doesn't know about electron guns and phosphorus but who does know about puppet theaters could use Occam's Razor to deduce some fairly laughable things about television sets.
Just because you can't imagine a thing doesn't mean that thing isn't a possibility, or indeed, a likelihood. Occam's razor is simply a clever way of justifying self-satisfied ignorance.
And THAT is my axe now well-ground to it's own razor's edge. Thank-you for indulging me and Merry Christmas! Jesus died for you! Occam said so.
-FL
When I talked with Cliff and Bob the day after the first deposition a few months ago, they reported that Mike Connell tried to avoid answering their questions.
They were looking forward to subsequent depositions in order to get better information.
We all had similar observations about Connell's situation: It seemed very very dangerous to him, and we were concerned for his safety. We were hoping to get better information more quickly in order to limit the amount of time during which Mr. Connell would be under threat.
This plane crash comes as no surprise to any of us.
Living in Columbus, we in the election protection community have witnessed several activities firsthand that give us pause.
We have, for instance, photographic records of some of the punchcard ballots in the 2004 election, before they were destroyed in direct violation of a court order as well as the orders of the new secretary of state.
Horrors.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Madeleine Brown's version of events has been shown to be shaky at best
Shown to be shaky at best-- where? I'd like to see that material too.
I still believe her. I've known plenty of people with good knowledge of history who couldn't remember dates, and whose memories sometimes combined events. The wrong date and placing an absent person at the scene do not, in my book, destroy the credibility of the assertions.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
The reason for the Witness Protection Program is that people who have testified or are about to testify against powerful people often unexpectedly die under suspicious circumstances. This is a well documented phenomenon. The reason there isn't a World Record Setter Protection Program is that there are, AFAIK, no incidents of potential world record setters dying under suspicious circumstances.
Just last month Connell testified against some of the most powerful people on the planet, after years of their trying to prevent it, and he had just been called to testify again. The local news channel is also reporting that he recently told people that he thought his plane had been tampered with, and had refused to fly it twice since testifying.
-- MarkusQ
Lots of crimes are conspiracies, though.
In fact, so many conspiracies being plotted throughout history there are special Federal laws established to prosecute those crimes.
They are slandering Rove.
Only if the claims are false.
Things that happened two days ago aren't new anymore.
Everybody seems to think I'm lazy I don't mind, I think they're crazy
Not exactly. K Dawson is a slashdot editor who compiled the summary from a bunch of user submissions. I have no idea wether he actually belives the partisan crap he posts.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
That makes him nuts?
I was clearly insane. Not so much anymore.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Dude... even Bill O'Reilly gave up on the Monica stuff a few years ago.
Give the man his prize!
http://www.teddybear.com/
Kirk Stephenson, Olivant Advisers.
Edward Mattar, BestBank.
Alex Widmer, Bank Julius Baer.
It's called G-O-O-G-L-E. Try it some time.
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
It can't? But it did!
Actually forced suicide has a long tradition. For instance Erwin Rommel, a German Field Marshall, better known as the "Desert Fox"
Seriously - why is ever person supposedly in possession of damning earth shattering information is incapable of putting a copy of said information in a safe deposit box, giving a few friends copies of the "in the event of my death" letter that directs them to an attorney(ies) that have a copy(ies) of the key? We know they don't do it in the movies, but how about real life? ....or his plane could have just crashed....
And how are we to be certain that what they find won't be suppressed? Political futures rest on pleasing those who pull the strings, and people in the NTSB play politics.
It can be as simple as 'overlooking' evidence that supports a different version of events, or lending more credence to evidence that supports the desired sequence of events.
It doesn't matter, though... the current administration wants the investigation to conclude that it was an accident; the incoming administration wants the same thing (do you really think they'd want press coverage of Obama's first 100 days to be usurped by some politically-motivated murder?). The only value of the NTSB discovering sabotage would be the press distraction from the economy... which could be a motive to let the NTSB publish any findings of potential sabotage.
At any rate, it's just plain naive to think that the NTSB is not influenced by politics, and people within it would publish accurate and truthful findings at the cost of their career.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
What? Let the proper authorities look into the situation? What kind of crazy talk is that?
Seriously? the conspiracy nut jobs will never except any evidence under any circumstances and will always claim to know better than the best minds in their related fields. It's pointless to even deal with people like that anymore. Planes wreck every day. This one could be an accident, it could be the work of some seedy people. Those of us who want to keep a cool head about it will never know the truth because there will be so many people pulling the truth in so many directions we will never notice it. It's sad that once people realize that what they believe is bullshit they can't just let it go and say they were wrong. Knee jerk reactions will always be the order of the day.
Now, I'm just waiting for some complete jerkoff come by and use this post as a vehicle for their politics or a chance to bash religion/gays/Linux users/Windows users. These asshats simply can not resist.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
I think you're mistaken. I also live in this area, and work nearby.
While I'm sure there may be a few Amish/Mennonites, they certainly aren't there in any large number. The area around is airport has some farming, but has just as many housing developments and undeveloped land (with trees). It is also isn't flat. Map here http://tinyurl.com/8otcxn
Let's not try to play armchair quarterback too much. He obviously had an incentive to not crash. He lived in Bath, so he flew into the airport a lot and was probably familiar with the area. If safely landing in a field was available to him, I'm sure he would have taken advantage of the opportunity instead of crashing into a residential neighborhood like he did (he hit a vacant house). It was night, so he probably would have had a hard time spotting a field.
Not directly around the airport, no. But in the surrounding areas there are loads of cornfields. Everywhere from Kent to Canton. Especially around Uniontown and Hartville. Loads of Amish/Mennonite folks around there. Every so often I'll sneak out that way and shop the local groceries there for better produce than I can find in the city.
When I think of AC's surrounding area that's what I think of. Hartville. Lots of flat land and corn. Like down Route 43.
I didn't know it was night though - that does make a difference.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Can we just try the guy as a traitor and let him get his sentence already? I mean even if he had nothing to do with this, the man has sold his countrymen out time and time again. He is a fecal smear on the face of our nation, let the people decide his fate.
I now believe orcs and elves are realities in our world. I thought for years that they had died out until I saw the movie (possibly now on YouTube) directed by Peter Jackson based on the notes of J.R.R. Tolkien. Tolkien went in to excellent detail outlining the lives of these people and their history. There is much more on the subject than Jackson was able to film, which everyone should read for themselves.
Sometimes people tell really good stories. And sometimes people really want to believe those stories.
Remeber what happened to William Casey back in the Iran Contra days? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Casey "Hours before Casey was scheduled to testify before Congress about his knowledge of Iran-Contra, he was reported to have been rendered incapable of speech, and was later hospitalized."
Seriously, all we know is that Connell died in a plane crash. But the timing does seem very suspicious. Isn't there some way to statistically calculate your chances of dying compared to your chances of dying if you are involved in politics. That would make a great measure of corruption.
Yes. I believe Rove is a great guy.
Come on! He panicked and lied. If he had told the truth, there would have been no problem. He got smacked for lying. The person who outed Plame (Armitage) didn't even get in trouble for it.
My father's best friend was a big shot technical manager with AT&T Long Lines in the 60s. He was working on November 22nd, 1963 when major portions of the national phone system were "locked down".
This person was present in the long lines operation center when Johnson's first call came through from Air Force One immediately after he was sworn in.
The operator motioned for him to listen in. Johnson was giving his first executive order after becoming president. He was asking to be patched through.
What do you think the nature of the call was? A call to the joint chiefs to declare DEFCON 4? A call to the FBI to launch an investigation? A call to Hubert Humphrey to offer him the vice-presidency?
Nope - Johnson called NASA to order the relocation of NASA's space program command center from Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia to Houston, Texas.
Think about it - if Johnson had no idea of the details behind the assassination of his predecessor, he would declare a high security alert.
If he DID have an idea, well, it would be logical to start consolidating power and influence. This was a decision worth many millions of dollars and thousands of jobs to the state of Texas.
This story was told directly to me on the 40th anniversary of the assassination by the man who overheard the conversation.
Ask Me About... The 80's!
What kind of IT Guru wouldn't keep some kind of backup of himself somewhere?
If we don't protect the freedom of speech how will we know who the assholes are?
Serbians pissed off at the US for supporting Croatia and Bosnia crashed Ron Brown's well-publicised trade mission to Croatia by putting up a false instrument beacon that ran the plane in the side of a mountain.
The US covered it up. The world finds out Serbian extremists killed a memeber of Clinton's cabinet, we have to invade Serbia. Not air strikes, a full blown ground invasion.
Clinton covered it up so he wouldn't have to invade Serbia.
Why should there be? What does that have to do with anything... oh wait, you're just a smear-bot attempting to claim that Obama had something to do with that bozo. Sorry, doesn't work -- the only Obama connection is that he pushed for an ethics bill that helped trip up the dude.
It's a funny thing, whenever you try to discuss how dirty American politics has gotten, you get these rover boys coming out of the woodwork with the "Democrats do it too!" line. Even if that's correct, is that supposed to make us feel better?
Nerds are us, jack, what do you want?
Hm... Do the smear-bots feel like they've got Digg gamed, but they're having trouble with slashdot?
There a whole host of laws that prevent Bush/Cheney from ordering prisoners be tortured.
They both admitted in interviews they did, though
Don't believe those who tell you to question authority, Martin.
Never question authority, Martin.
Authority is always right.
"Baa! Baaa!" says Martin from the back of the herd.
According to Gary Mack and Dave Perry, there are a lot of things wrong with her story. Among the most significant, she claimed that she was at a party in Dallas the night before the assassination, a party attended by Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson, and J. Edgar Hoover. The problem with that claim is that Johnson was in Houston that night with Kennedy. Photographs prove it. He didn't arrive in Dallas until late that night, where Johnson was again photographed at the hotel around midnight. Nixon was in Dallas, but was escorting Joan Crawford at the Statler-Hilton hotel -- and was photographed there.
That's not the only mismatch or logical inconsistency. And there are lots of people who are bad with dates, but that's where she allegedly first heard hints about a murder plot, and the day before the assassination. Those aren't things one is likely to get mixed up.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Maybe the plane crash never killed Connell because he was not in the plane. It could have been staged to protect him. Now he has to live his life in protective custody.
Just a possibility.
Dunno why you got modded troll. it's true
er, someone want to mod parent up?
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
Amelia Earhart disappeared under some strange circumstances. Maybe se was in the World Record Setter Protection Program.
Maybe the airplane turned to chocolate in midair, and can't be found because it crashed in Hershey, PA.
Just a equally likely possibility.
Every plane crash, no matter how small the plane is, gets investigated by the NTSB.
If someone is trying to kill themselves in a way that gets their loved ones insurance money, the last thing they want to do to kill themselves in a way that requires an investigation by a Federal agency. That's likely to lengthen the process of collecting life insurance pay-outs by a minimum of months, pretty commonly into years.
Given that our country is so utterly unwilling to prosecute him, when is someone going to do the right thing and lynch Karl Rove? If there was ever anyone more deserving of frontier justice, I've not heard of them. The man is a clear and present danger to the idea of democracy and representative government.
The crimes of eBay are a disgrace to it's pig latin heritage!
Your friendly neighborhood voice of the authority has spoken. One should never question the voice of authority. Authority is always right.
You sheep, go on back to your herd now. Move along.
...Then they fight you. Then you win."
~Mahatma Gandhi
In fact this happens all the time to inexperienced pilots.
They plan their flight to Ohio, overload their plane with hacked Diebold voting machines without checking weight and balance, and crash when they find out the plane cannot be flown properly.
all these deaths and suicides...
reminds me of the ending to Goodfellas.
Thanks for replying, and I don't want to belabor this, but maybe the party was TWO nights before the assassination? Maybe he got to Dallas in time to catch the tail end of the party? Perhaps one should not strain so, but there appears to be plenty of other evidence pointing at Johnson. What about the secretary who disappeared after she saw Madeline and Johnson kissing? Brown says she was told "Mack" took care of her-- for keeps. There is a lot of smoke here even if it doesn't prove the precise location of the fire. What about the picture taken just a few seconds after the famous one of Johnson taking the oath on Air Force One beside a dazed Jackie Kennedy, which shows Johnson grinning and winking at a crony? What about Johnson's first executive order, issued from the same plane, reported to be moving NASA command from Langley to Houston? With so many other indicators, it is natural, and maybe good, to view Brown's testimony in a more favorable, and less dismissive light, asking not are there any indications of inconsistency, but rather, are there reasonably possible circumstances under which it might be true?
Personally I have no desire to come off as a conspiracy nut or as a Cassandra. But this kind of stuff makes you question. I would actually LIKE to see a thorough rundown of Brown's claims (equal to a good cross-examination). This kind of stuff is too big to ignore.
But I guess no one is going to go to all that trouble now. All we can do is follow our best hunches at this point. I think the scales have been tipped for me, for whatever that's worth.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
When Paul Wellstone's plane went down early reports told the story of the pilots being within sight of the landing field, turning on the field landing lights with mike clicks, then slowly turning about 180 degrees, slowly nosing over and flying straight into the ground with both engines running. This with two experienced pilots on board.
Turning on the landing lights at a strange airport is a convenient way to verify that the field you are approaching is the one you think it is. You do this by clicking the mike 5 times in succession on the airport frequency. This sequence operates a relay at the airport. These relays are widely available.
Imagine the above scenario with the addition of one of these relays in the plane, wired to trigger the release of a deadly gas. Explains the facts nicely, doesn't it. Everyone is either dead or unconscious almost immediately, and the rest is inevitable.
I suggest the theory that this was how it was done, both with Wellstone and with Connell, and probably quite a few other people around the world. It's actually quite clever, when you think about it. A technique the CIA can be proud of.
I did intend to have one in there, linked to Dave Perry, but I forgot to go back and add it in. Perry goes through her book, citing pages and quotes, and pointing out the problems with them.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Your check's in the mail.
-K
this discussion is already destined to devolve into the same old political flamewar 90% of every other discussion around here ends up in
Your obviously not new here, so whats the problem?
I work literally 2 mins away from the crash site and that day was VERY windy. We were experiencing wind gusts of 30+ mph. He didn't make it to the airport short about a mile. Its unfortunate.
-------- Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most. --Ozzy
The plane flew from the D.C. area to Akron, OH, a distance of about 300 miles. It crashed a few miles from the destination airport, in other words it was less than a minute's flight time from a safe landing. To believe the sabotage theory you have to believe that somebody rigged the plane in a way that didn't interfere with takeoff or level flight, but did cause an insurmountable problem literally at the last minute. Oh, and there can't be any trace of a foreign device in the wreckage, either. It just seems overcomplicated. Don Doumakes http://socnet.net/blogs/doumakes/
Jeeze, Lets see, Bush & Co. are leaving in what, 3 weeks. Obama and his new administration are I.T. / Tech Centric. Bush needs to be sure the White House email (and who knows what WE DON'T KNOW) stays lost. Let me spell it out for you. C. O. N. S. P. I. R. A. C. Y. There isn't even a question in my mind about this.
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
lol did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary.
you have ZERO facts about why the plane crashed yet you're willing to adopt this insane story that rivals what hollywood can produce. you have some very serious mental issues man. seriously.
Yes, and a guy associated with the billion-dollar ponzi scheme also committed suicide... or, well... he was found with his wrists cut and had bled to death... the cause and nature of death has yet to be determined precisely.
the guy who killed himself was a French Investor who lost 1.4 Billion. Linking him to Rove is tenuous at best other then him being a victim of the Republican culture of corruption.
Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
are there any dimwits who could be able to defend republican party, STILL ?
Read radical news here
The rule on engine out at night is to go in wings level and take whatever it is below you. You can't tell a plowed cornfield from a stand of trees from a lake, so it makes more sense to try to prepare for the crash than to try to pick a landing spot. This pretty much assures that you're SOL, but then again if you have an engine out at night you're pretty much SOL. When flying at night, I prefer to follow roads that I know are wide and straight (64 to 220 when flying between Raleigh and Greensboro, NC) With any luck, the car's headlights will be like runway lights.
The other thing is that landing in a cornfield is pretty much guaranteed to destroy the airplane. If the corn is tall, the airplane will wind up on it's back. If the field is plowed, you have a decent chance if you land with the ruts. If you land across the ruts, the airplane will wind up on it's back.
Experienced pilots develop what we call "an ego". The often believe that they have the skills to make an airplane do more than what it really can do. The description of the plane before landing sounds like he tried to extend the glide, pulled the airplane into a stall, and then was to low to recover without power. This particular crash scenario is sickenly typical, and is one of the areas concentrated on the most in recurrent pilot training.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
"Murder is a very hard thing to pull off without getting caught, and it's even harder to make things look like an accident."
Unless you own the police.
You guys seen www.zeitgeistmovie.com?
This clown is jumping to a whole bunch of conclusions that evidence doesn't support.
Connell held a instrument rating. He was no rookie pilot. I think an instrument rated pilot can read a gas gage.
In order to avoid problems when flying an aircraft, one has a better chance of success when one is, "Flying Ahead of the Aircraft." A Pilot IS responsible for ALL of the actions of flying an aircraft. It sucks, but the rule is based on the fact that the pilot made the decision to get into the plane, and fly it; that rule, and many others when applied to flying aircraft are, "Written In Blood."
As a personal note, no one working for the current Bush Administration would be welcome in my home.
...why did the reporters follow the dots to BRITNEY SPEARS and KEVIN FEDERLINE while the Dubya, the bankers and Wall Street were watching the entire world's financial system collapse around them!?!
Look at that post of yours, coward. All personal insults. Not one fact in it.
Questions hurt coward sheep head.
Never question authority. Authority always right.
You already just lied and said you knew that suicide in this case would be the best way to collect insurance money for one's family.
You're making shit up as you're going along. You don't know shit.
The office of our President wasn't anywhere near this easy to abuse before Bush. Certainly power grabs with prior Presidents happened, but nothing like the scale of the wool currently over the eyes of many Americans.
If he knew he was sitting on secrets; knew (or suspected) people were out to get him; and was a geek:
Where's the killswitch server? You know, the server sitting quietly somewhere that needs you to login once a week or so or it automatically dumps all that incriminating material onto a website and emails a few news outlets.
I think you're failing to make a key distinction, which is the difference between what is true and what can be proved. Science is really only concerned with the latter. It's a practical discipline, so given two theories that match observed facts, the simpler theory will be easier to prove and thus is considered more useful. However when the theory fails to match facts, it's known to be wrong (or lacking) regardless of its simplicity. So Occam's Razor does not substitute or compensate for missing knowledge, it helps us sort the specific subset of what we think we currently know or understand.
You're right that the utility of Occam's Razor is limited by the assumptions and domain of our knowledge. But that's true for all scientific knowledge with or without Occam. The moon might fly away from the Earth tomorrow regardless of what Occam says, but scientists don't lose sleep over it because it is so far outside what can be predicted with the tools we have. It COULD happen, but since there doesn't seem to be any way to predict it right now, science doesn't care. "Call us if it happens and we'll discuss it then."
Anyway, Occam's Razor seems to have a physical analog in the principle of least action. Photons don't wander all over the place randomly, they take the simplest, shortest path. Same with gravity. Observed processes seem to be just as complex as they need to be, but no more complex. You can even make very precise quantitative predictions by integrating to predict the path with least action. Feynman won a Nobel prize for it.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Lack of experience checking/balancing a power-mad executive branch?
Not to be biased or anything :)
Scared of jumping the gun like in the jism pogrom?
The executive branch can't spend money. That's congress' job. Which was the point of the comment you responded to.
In theory, no. In practice, Bush just bailed out the auto industry to the tune of billions of taxpayoer dollars after Congress explicitly voted it down.
It is a potential rationale for a person to commit suicide that way. It doesn't matter if it is the best way as long as the person believes it.
Any problems with garage door openers noticed, this time?
Secret agents exist. We know this. It's not a theory. It's a career path.
Nobody denies this
Their job is to conspire and execute conspiracies.
Not typically within their own country. They are not legally allowed to do it, and the government isn't as good as you think in keeping secrets. Every single time someone in the high levels of government does something like that, a lot of people need to be involved, and it only takes one to blow the whistle. MK Ultra, watergate, warrantless wiretapping...all these things that you're going to use to point at how conspiracies exist are actually arguments against it: all these things are shit that the government couldn't manage to keep secret. It only takes one honest person to leak it.
Things like, "Occam can be used to justify ignorance, despite the fact that he was a 13th century monk who invented his razor to prove the existence of God."
One of the biggest problems with Occam's Razor isn't actually with Occam's Razor. It's with people using it incorrectly. In case of conspiracy theories, Occam's Razor doesn't say, "a conspiracy theory can't possibly occur," it says, "if the simple explanation fits the facts, it's not logical to assume a conspiracy instead." That's where an investigation comes in. When evidence is uncovered that shows the simple explanation doesn't cut it, or evidence supporting a conspiracy surfaces, then you start leaning toward other theories.
Stuff like that. Only retards and suckers don't grasp this basic notion, which is pretty much everybody.
Before calling other people "retards and suckers" you should get your shit right. William of Ockham was indeed a monk. He did not "invent Occam's Razor to prove the existence of God," though. He
And that's the problem with most conspiracy theories. They don't bother to check the facts before spouting their theories, which leads to the ridicule you dislike so much.
Yes, everyone should understand that the POTUS has no real power to change the economy.
The President has few tools at his disposal to directly work on the economy. HOWEVER... that doesn't mean the President couldn't have done something about the financial irresponsibility that led to the current crisis.
There's a lot of signs that some actions 4 years ago by regulators who were with it and weren't ideologically opposed to acting might have prevented some of the worst problems. Recognizing that Credit Default Swaps were insurance and treating them as such might have done it alone, although having someone turn a cold eye to ratings vs real risk of the Mortgage Backed Securities sure would have helped.
I don't have a high degree of confidence, however, that Kerry or Gore would have necessarily been Presidents who created administrations that fit the bill. A lot of people were a step or two behind the industry in understanding the various instruments and a lot of leadership, Democrats and Republicans alike, subscribed to the idea that the market could/would take care of itself, that the risks were well-managed, etc etc.
Tweet, tweet.
Even the President will jump on a fat girl when he thinks nobodies looking.
I blame him for keeping Hillary around. No doubt she has much dirt on him and vice versa though.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Very good. --I'd like to spend the time required to delve into this with proper energy, but it's the holidays at the moment and family is bouncing all over the place. I'm not abandoning this; it's not common that one meets an intelligent person on the other side of the screen. Give me a day or two to get into a proper space and collect some notes; it is clear (as per Occam) that my methods have become sloppy of late. In the mean time, if you can find the time, watch a copy of that old Watergate movie, "All the President's Men." I know it's just a movie, but it is useful for illustrating a couple of points wtr to conspiracies which I'd like to reference.
Cheers!
-FL
Even though, the technology is growing up, flight crash are still continuing. http://www.belmos.com/
In practice, Congress spent that money.
If they didn't want the president to use it on things they didn't like, they shouldn't have given him a $350billion blank check.