Palm Announces Killer New Phone

Barence writes "At CES, Palm announced what promises to be the product that finally matches and even betters the Apple iPhone, and certainly looks to be the most important product announced at this year's Consumer Electronics Show. It's called the Palm Pre and it's based on a completely new operating system, called Palm webOS. Its key specs include a 3.1in 320x 480 touchscreen, 8GB of storage, UMTS HDSPA support (in the UK version of the phone), 802.11b/g WLAN, Bluetooth, and GPS. It also includes a slide-out Qwerty keyboard, 3.5mm headphone jack, and what Palm described as the 'fastest ever' Texas Instruments OMAP processor."

Comments

3.5 mm? o.o

[mewshi_nya]

Ooh, I can use it as an actual music player now :D

Now, if I could just *afford* it...

I hate being in college sometimes.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[RManning]

I hate being in college sometimes.

Soon you'll be saying: "I hate paying off college sometimes." :)

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[cayenne8]

"I hate being in college sometimes."

No...stay there as long as possible...it is your last place to be where fun/childish behavior is sanctioned and acceptable.

Sure, you have more money when you get into the real world, but, you also have to work, and have responsibilities. Especially if you get married. If you want the best of both worlds...don't hurry into marriage when you get out. In that case, yes, you have some more adult responsibilities, but, you do get to keep and burn more of that money you start to earn for yourself...and you can still get away with acting somewhat like an idiot, and you don't have someone bitching at you to 'act right'. You also are strapped with potentially a lifetime ending anchor of a kid...at least not yet.

So..stay in as long as possible. But, once out...stay single for awhile...no need to get completely locked down into full 'adult' life right away. At the very worst...if you have to, don't marry the girl, just live with her....kinda like leasing with an option to buy.

:)

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[AvitarX]

I think you're completley wrong on the marriage thing.

I certainly wouldn't rush into it, or rush into having children, but being married gives me one person I can be fun/childish with every day guaranteed (living with would work here too). Being married also has a huge benefit when it comes to wasting money. My wife and I can afford, and maintain a 3 bedroom house, either of us on our own would not be able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment, or maintain a house.

Additionally I vacuum half as often save 30-50 percent on the bills, and don't need to cook all the time (most of these apply to living with someone too).

These are not reasons to get married, I just simply wanted to point out it is not the end of childishness/fun. If you really want to commit to spending your life with someone, and makign the compromises that will be required (it's two way if done right) it is not something to dread or avoid. And it can certainly lead to having more money to spend on yourself, not less.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[jddj]

OTOH, don't wait 'till age 49 to have your first kid (voice of experience here).

I love him like nothing else in the world, but God; my back, my knees...

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[opus7600]

Ah, don't worry about getting married. The real killer is having kids. Put that off as long as possible, because once you do that, your childhood is done, forever.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, don't get married quickly. Date like 100 people first to find out what really is out there, but don't just date whomever happens to be nice to you, be choosy, and aim high even if you get shot down 50 times, you'll get used to it.

I thought I knew what I wanted. I chose poorly. That was a very expensive price to pay for some not so great years followed by an even higher price.

Marriage should be illegal until about 30. At least late 20s.

Besides, the young and irresponsible thing goes over a lot better in your 20s instead of your 30s...

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[foo fighter]

Mod parent DOWN!

That is one of the saddest and most cynical posts I've ever seen on Slashdot, and I've been here for a while.

I got married seven years ago (I was 22) to a woman I met in college after only two years in college. We had a daughter almost three years ago. I have a great, challenging job in information security with responsibilities and a career path. Our only debt is a car loan that will be paid off within the year and our mortgage that will be paid off around the time our daughter goes to college.

I'm having more fun now than I ever had in college, and that's really saying something.

There is no reason, at all, to ever have less fun in life just because you've matured to the point where women, children, and responsibility are opportunities to be enjoyed, not albatrosses to resent.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[Anonymous Coward]

You certainly do not have any children.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[clickety6]

.it is your last place to be where fun/childish behavior is sanctioned and acceptable.

Or have kids. Nothing keeps you younger or acting more child-like than playing with kids - plus you have an excuse to but all those cool toys you didn't have when you were a kid and want to play with now! :-)

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[meringuoid]

These are not reasons to get married, I just simply wanted to point out it is not the end of childishness/fun. Obligatory.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[ubrgeek]

> but, you also have to work, and have responsibilities

Then how do you explain kdawson? ;)

(Well, there goes my Karma ...)

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[Archangel Michael]

And sometime after you finally get your college loans payed off, and you're married with a mortgage you're paying and three kids, you'll be saying

. wait for it

. wait for it

.

  "I wish I was back in college".

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[ubrgeek]

> even if you get shot down 50 times, you'll get used to it.

You better. Same thing often happens _after_ you get married ...

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[Toonol]

That is completely wrong. Having kids gives you a second, wonderful, childhood.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[jargoone]

So, have you two gotten your proofs back from the photographer yet?

I kid...

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[stei7766]

Every month...same chick...who knows exactly which spot to touch.

No akward first-time-with-new-person sex.

It totally sucks, lemme tell you.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[lisaparratt]

I was sensible enough to get sterilised at age 20 - 8 years later, and having to grow up still isn't even on the horizon.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[hodet]

um... you mean.. uh.... WAT?

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[fahrbot-bot]

My wife and I can afford, and maintain a 3 bedroom house, either of us on our own would not be able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment, or maintain a house.

Just my $.02, but while this may be true, it can set you up for The Two Income Trap. In the long term, you'll find greater security (and happiness too) by living closer to the means of only one.

Case in point. My wife died three years ago, but as we always lived within the means of one salary (mostly), financially I'm fine, as would she have been if I had died instead.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[Anonymous Coward]

My father was 49 when I was born. I am 39 now. From my mother's stories and the pictures from my infant and early childhood years I know that I liked and loved him a lot. But later in life we were never good friends or really close. I attribute this to our age difference and our belonging to different historical eras. (It changed only for a little while after I came back from my two years millitary service.)

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[lysergic.acid]

just because it's "off-topic" doesn't mean it can't be insightful. the GP's post was simply following the course of the conversation. he didn't hijack the thread or post about something completely random that has nothing to do with the thread.

i mean, when you have a conversation with someone off-line do you bitch about people being "off-topic" whenever the conversation naturally progresses to or touches on a new topic? this is a casual discussion, not a goddamn book report.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[ciaohound]

And the next thing you know, you're saying "Get off my lawn!"

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[digitalunity]

I'll bite, at the expense of undoing about 8 mod points.

The book is based on presumptions and faulty logic. It may be true if you have 2 earners you're twice as likely to be affected by layoff or other employment related economic interruption. However, with 2 earners you're only losing 40-60% of your household income in the face of a layoff, versus 100% for a 1 income. This makes a 2 earner household more resilient.

The real reason for for skyrocketing bankruptcy in middle income households with children is the exploding cost of goods along with unbridled middle class spending. For almost 2 generations, families have been moving more frequently from house to house using each one as a short term credit card based on the faulty assumption that the value of the house will NECESSARILY go up. They use that equity to pay off some debt, but each time they get a raise or other windfall they purchase a newer bigger better house with a 3rd garage stall or a 4th bedroom or a bigger yard.

Regardless of the number of incomes in the house, its important that people make rational fiscal decisions which includes setting a reasonable budget. When they find themselves making much more than their budget, they should be investing it in short to medium term CD's(for now) to reinvest into their mortgage or blow down their debt.

No, children aren't the cause of bankruptcy. Its more likely that there is a correlation between fiscal irresponsibility and those who have children.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[AvitarX]

I don't

And unless I am mixed up on how biology works getting married isn't making me any more likely to.

In fact, I am one of only a few people I know that got married before having a child on the way at least (family and friends).

I can mis-read statistics (anecdotes) and say that getting married is good protection against having a first child.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[cayenne8]

"Every month...same chick...who knows exactly which spot to touch.

No akward first-time-with-new-person sex."

Yeah..but, then she gets fat...etc...and you're stuck with her.

Not to mention (and I heard this from a LOT of my married friends) kiss BJ's good by...she just did that to snag you.

Apparently the old joke about what food destroys a woman's sex drive (wedding cake) holds true for a lot of them out there, and you don't find out till after your married and then your screwed (no pun intended).

Apparently you got lucky. Good for you...

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[93 Escort Wagon]

These are not reasons to get married, I just simply wanted to point out it is not the end of childishness/fun. If you really want to commit to spending your life with someone, and makign the compromises that will be required (it's two way if done right) it is not something to dread or avoid. And it can certainly lead to having more money to spend on yourself, not less.

Okay, I realize the average age on Slashdot is pretty low, but - this seems fairly immature to me (and I realize you're not necessarily espousing this position, just responding to it). If a person is that concerned with having lots of money to spend on themselves, they're not ready for a significant relationship.

Also, as a husband and a dad, I can say having kids doesn't have to "end your fun". As my daughter grew up I got the chance to see a lot of movies I'd have been too embarrassed to admit wanting to see. I have a blast playing video games and watching old movies with her. She's also an enjoyable person just to spend time with.

I LOVE being a dad - I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[jkoke]

Exactly! My kids love it when I act like a kid. I get to do things I hadn't done in years -- snowball fights, backyard football, flips on the trampoline. And video games! My kids are addicted to Rock Band.

Re:3.5 mm? o.o

[indiechild]

That means your married friends are wussies, like the majority of men. Either they didn't choose their woman correctly in the first place or (more likely) they just wussed out after marrying and became more and more wimpy -- in popular culture, this is known as being "pussywhipped".

Women despise wussbags, and will withhold sex as her attraction to the man drops and she becomes more and more resentful. Men need to learn what pushes women's attraction buttons.

Getting married is not a license to slack off and get complacent.

How many iPhone killers is that?

[danaris]

Thus far, I have yet to see an "iPhone killer" do anything of the sort.

If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better. That means the interface and the integration, as well. The past decade of iPod dominance has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither a laundry list of features nor a very appealing price can compete with cool factor and a really nice user experience.

Dan Aris

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they want a killer phone... just add a gun in it :D

or use old sony battery

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[TheRaven64]

Who said it was an iPhone killer? In terms of hardware, the phone is very nice - the OMAP 3430 is much nicer than the iPhone chip, and supports OpenGL ES 2 (the iPhone only supports 1.1). In terms of software, who knows. The preview sounds promising, but I doubt Palm have as nice developer tools as Apple, although they may well have a less hostile set of T&Cs for using them.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[mewshi_nya]

Older Palm OS phones are pretty open, as far as apps go. Can put pretty much anything on there.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[jellomizer]

Chances are if they come too close to be an iPhone killer they are using some of apples patents.

While I do like seeing competition for the iPhone and iPod, It seems that a lot of people seem to miss the little details that Apple likes to put in its product, that makes it that much better.

For example I will use OS X and Ubuntu with AWN. They both have a fancy dock. AWN has way more features then the Mac OS X Dock. However it isn't really that usable. Things such as if you run a new app. I want to right click the running application and say keep on dock. Or just being able to drag and drop an App into awn from your file system browser... And get the correct Icon. Being able to group all open windows of the same application together. I am not talking about eyecandy, (like the OS X animations when you zoom in) but actual usability that people tend to miss when trying to copy the idea.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[mdwh2]

If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better.

This is an unfair requirement - the Iphone after all doesn't do everything that every other phone does, after all! Missing features are accepted as "not something I'd need" or hand-waved away as "Grumpy featurism". So the same should be true of the Palm - it's okay to miss features, as not everyone may need every feature. As long as it just works, that's all that matters. It's the double standard - Apple products are okay as long as they have a "cool factor" (your words, not mine), but other products are held to some impossible standard of "must be able to do everything that any other phone can do, and more".

The only reason there's yet to be an Iphone killer is the same reason that there isn't a Nokia killer or a Motorola killer - no phone company is in a dominant position (and certainly not Apple - not even close I'm afraid), and no company has yet to produce a "killer" phone to put them in the dominant position.

The past decade of iPod dominance has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither a laundry list of features nor a very appealing price can compete with cool factor and a really nice user experience.

Ipod, yes. We're talking about a different market here.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Simon Brooke]

Thus far, I have yet to see an "iPhone killer" do anything of the sort.

If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better. That means the interface and the integration, as well.

The device has a keyboard. It isn't a good keyboard, but even so it's a whole lot better than the keyboard on the iPhone - and the lack of a keyboard is a significant part of the reason I don't have an iPhone. The contacts management software which was demo'ed is way better than the iPhone's. And if, as claimed, the device has good Microsoft Exchange support, then for many commercial users it's one better than the iPhone on that count as well.

Sure, it isn't a better music player. It may not be a better movie viewer. But the iPhone, despite being very pretty, isn't actually a very good telephone - contacts management is poor, reception is poor, battery life isn't good, sound quality is so-so. It's a great phone for people who don't use a mobile phone for their work - but most people do.

Of course, the iPhone's killer app is the iTunes store. For non-technical users it is quite simply the easiest way to locate, buy and install software to the phone. Palm (and Google and RIM and Microsoft) have to equal that, and it will not be easy.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[beelsebob]

What I find disturbing is that people consider this to be "the most important product announced at this year's Consumer Electronics Show." When as explained in the article, it's something that's as good as a product that's already been on the market for two years.

There seems to be an unhealthy amount of Apple hate in that statement - either the iPhone is a good product and has been out for 2 years, making this unimpressive (though good that there's competition); or the iPhone is an awful product, and this being "just as good" is thoroughly unimpressive!

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[need4mospd]

Thus far, I have yet to see an "iPhone killer" do anything of the sort.

My Jitterbug disagrees.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[IceCreamGuy]

but I doubt Palm have as nice developer tools as Apple

From Ars:

Any web developer can use CSS, HTML, and JavaScript to develop applications for the OS; there are no new languages to learn

I'm no developer, but can't you just pick your favorite IDE and go to town with that? I would imagine there'll even be some devs who just use Nano or Notepad.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[bytethese]

I think you are confused. By stating "If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better." I believe danaris was referring to the fact that if you want to compete directly with a product, you should do what it does and do it better. In addition, I might add that a ___-killer should do something ___ does not do, and do it rather well. Further, The only reason there's yet to be an Iphone killer is the same reason that there isn't a Nokia killer or a Motorola killer is an incorrect statment. That's like comparing Apples to Oranges (NPI). To say Nokia Killer or Motorola Killer, you would need to say Apple killer not iPhone. However this product is not meant to "kill" Apple as a whole, but a product they produce, the iPhone. If you said no one has made a Nokia N95 killer or a Motorola RAZR killer, then that would be a better comparison.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[julesh]

If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better. That means the interface and the integration, as well.

Of course, Palm are the long-standing masters of handheld UI and desktop integration. For a long time, nothing could beat the Palm handhelds for simplicity and effectiveness of UI, and their desktop software integrated well with most popular desktop productivity software.

True, they've lagged behind a lot recently, but it'll be interesting to see what they've come up with anyway.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[beelsebob]

Yep, battery life on the iPhone is awful...
iPhone standby - 300 hours, talk - 5 hours 3G or 10 2G
Blackberry storm standby â" 300 hours, talk - 5.5 hours 3G or 6 2G
Nokia n96 standby 200 hours, talk - 2.7 hours 3G, 4 hours 2G
G1 standby â" 200 hours, talk - 5.5 hours 3G or 6 2G

Looks like the iPhone wins on every count.

The keyboard is a matter of opinion, personally, I'd rather type on an iPhone keyboard than any smartphone keyboard I've used.

The reception on the iPhone is excellent, and the problems in america with reception were quickly identified as being AT&T's fault (their 3G network wasn't up to having double the amount of data transfered over it).

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[HardCase]

Well, it may not be an iPhone killer, but it's also not going to be a Blackberry killer, either. It's just going to be another touchscreen phone that's lost in a sea of touchscreen phones that aren't made by Apple or RIM. After going through the personal agony of owning a few Palm devices (pre-Treo), I, like many others, have given up on Palm. They're big on talk, but that's about it.

On the other hand, since my expectations are pretty damn low, I guess they shouldn't have too much trouble meeting them.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[samkass]

Funny, when Apple announced that you could develop on the iPhone with CSS, HTML, and JavaScript from day 1, developers revolted and demanded a "real" SDK. It will be interesting to see how that goes for Palm.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[iserlohn]

I would agree with you, only that I have a G1 now. The only thing the kept me from getting one before was the poor appearance from pictures. On daily use, however, I've found the build quality and the hardware itself is good and not toy-ish at all. If it came with a glossy black front and a chrome back then it would be even better, but you have to consider the number people putting rubber gimp masks on their iPhone to protect their little precious from getting hurt, so what's the point?

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[jellomizer]

That has never happened to me, in 8 years of using OS X. I am not saying it isn't a problem, but it seems like a rare bug to me. There are bugs then there are usability issues.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[ByOhTek]

Battery is user replaceable according to the article.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[JasterBobaMereel]

I already have an iPhone killer ... ....it's called a phone - longer battery life, makes and receives calls, can be used on any network

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[mdwh2]

What I find disturbing is that people consider this to be "the most important product announced at this year's Consumer Electronics Show." When as explained in the article, it's something that's as good as a product that's already been on the market for two years.

Indeed - a product that people think is good because it can do what other phones have done for years? It's like the Iphone release all over again ;)

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[samkass]

Perhaps, but at this point they're coming out with a product that more or less matches what the competition did 6 months ago. Does anyone doubt that this year's hardware from Apple is going to blow Apple's previous year's hardware out of the water? So what's the window of opportunity for this knock-off to "kill" the iPhone? To me it seems more of a desperation move to keep slightly relevant, by at least staying the game with a product in the same generation as everyone else.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Sancho]

Erm, except for 3G usage, where the G1 and the Storm beat it, apparently.

And frankly, that's all I use my iPhone for.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[stokessd]

You left out "insanely zealous fan base willing to pay twice as much for a shorter
laundry list and more vendor lockdown than half a dozen competitors".

By that logic, Apple has a zealous fan base that consist of like 75% of the MP3 owners. However only like 10% of the computer market (if you are being very conservative), so does that mean that these huge droves of apple fanbois are abstaining from buying an apple computer?

I'd argue that you've got about as many hardcore mac fanbois on the iPod as you do in the computer market that will buy anything apple sells, that should be in the single digit percentages overall. The rest of the 75% dominance of the iPod is from an actual good design that outshines the other mp3 players.

The iPhone is no different, there is a small percentage that buys it because it's from Cupertino, the rest of them are buying it because it eclipses all other smart phones out there for them.

Sheldon

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[N1AK]

Yeah, why would this be better? Unless it's open it's crap. I will just wait for more android/openmoko phones.

Take a seat, breathe deeply... The world doesn't revolve around you, in fact it doesn't even register than you exist and it certainly couldn't care what phone you are waiting for.

People who know what 'open' even means in terms of software are a tiny proportion of the market and the fact that you don't think a closed phone can be good is almost entirely irrelevant to how this will be reviewed.

In fact the fact it looks pretty ugly will be a far more important factor in how it is reviewed than how open it is.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[jabithew]

There's another reason the iPhone has a good popular perception (over here in the UK at least).

Walk into a phone shop and I guarantee they'll either have no phones or the iPhone available to use.

Huh?

The iPhone is the only phone I've seen with working demo models on the high street. All other phones have only plastic carcasses nailed to the wall. Even the G1. How am I supposed to make a judgement about that?

This is in London and Reading, FYI.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Sancho]

The device has a keyboard. It isn't a good keyboard, but even so it's a whole lot better than the keyboard on the iPhone - and the lack of a keyboard is a significant part of the reason I don't have an iPhone.

I've used several smartphones extensively, both with and without keyboards. I've had the most direct experience with a Treo 650, an HTC Apache, and an iPhone.

When I first started using each device, the hardware keyboards were without a doubt, much easier to use. After getting used to the iPhone keyboard, though, I have to say that it's perfectly adequate for text entry. One of the keys is to let it autocorrect for you. 90% of the time, it corrects to what I meant to type. Most of the failures are due to the use of acronyms that I haven't bothered to capitalize (and it will learn those.)

The contacts management software which was demo'ed is way better than the iPhone's.

That's not hard to imagine. Nevertheless, the iPhone was one of the first smartphones (and definitely the first one I encountered) to have a "favorites" list. This let me really cut back on the cruft while still having everyone in the corp and their dog in my phone.

But the iPhone, despite being very pretty, isn't actually a very good telephone

reception is poor

There were problems with reception on 3G at first. Those were fixed in an update. I now never have problems getting a full 3G signal, and I don't get dropouts anymore. This is in the US.

battery life isn't good

It's quite on par with other recent smartphones.

sound quality is so-so

What do you mean by this, exactly?

It's a great phone for people who don't use a mobile phone for their work - but most people do.

When the iPhone first came out, they definitely weren't targeting business people who use their cell phones constantly for work. They were targeting the every-person. With the 2.0 software release, they started targeting business users more heavily, and they've got a little ways to go to be sure. I think it's an overall well-balanced device, though.

Of course, the iPhone's killer app is the iTunes store. For non-technical users it is quite simply the easiest way to locate, buy and install software to the phone. Palm (and Google and RIM and Microsoft) have to equal that, and it will not be easy.

I don't think that they'll be able to equal the App Store for a long, long while. Apple's got a rather large portion of the "smarter than a normal cellphone" market. The same thing that keeps people writing apps for Windows will keep people writing apps for the iPhone.

All that said, I picked the iPhone for two reasons. One is the browser, and the other is the mail client. At the time, no other phone came close to Safari on the iPhone for rendering quickly and correctly. As it is, I've only seen one other browser come close--the 9.x release of Opera Mobile. It also uses a viewport with smooth zooming and Opera's fantastic rendering engine. It's quite a bit slower, though, and uses quite a bit of memory.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

My prediction is that Android will not kill the iPhone for some time. Partly because the dev tools aren't as polished as Apples but to be honest as a potential developer myself, the toolset is less important than the API's. Unfortunately the Android API's are an area that seems somewhat deficient in a number of places (real-time low latency PCM audio anyone - how can something so fundamental have been so badly done?!). Anyone wanting to write any half-way serious game or audio based app is stuck using a shitty "send-this-file-to-the-output" style API.
There are other areas too where Apple just seem to have put a lot more thought into how things hang together - it's like the API's for the iPhone have been developed by people who have their usability as a prime concern, which sadly, with what I've seen so far, I can't say for Android.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Constantine XVI]

The big difference here is that with webOS;
1) The apps are actually stored locally
2) Palm is apparently allowing access to the hardware via CSS, HTML, and JavaScript (details are scarce right now), something no one else does right now

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[StreetStealth]

There's a huge difference here.

Apple was basically telling developers "you can make iPhone-optimized websites! They're just like apps, honest!"

Palm is telling developers "our SDK is based around web conventions that any web developer would already be familiar with."

Probably the biggest difference here is that with WebOS, you're actually installing an app to run locally. Pre-SDK iPhone was nothing more than websites that could disappear once you ducked into the subway.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[KlaymenDK]

Oops -- potential huge fail!

From Ars (emphasis mine):

It's apparent that this radical shift in platform will mean that all existing Palm applications will be rendered obsolete. During the presentation this morning, it was said, "There are a few hundred-thousand Palm developers and a few million web developers." If there was a dark spot during the launch it would be this, but it's definitely not going to extinguish the excitement felt on the floor for this handset.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[db10]

but will it blend?

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Space]

From http://developer.palm.com/
The Palm Mojo SDK

Besides the Palm Mojo Application Framework, the SDK will include sample code, documentation, and development tools. An Eclipse-based IDE is included, and you will also be able to use your choice of tools to build WebOS applications. The Mojo SDK is currently in private prerelease, and will be available later this year as a free download from the Palm Developer Network.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[drsquare]

If Palm wants to do so, they're going to have to do everything the iPhone does and do it better. That means the interface and the integration, as well. The past decade of iPod dominance has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither a laundry list of features nor a very appealing price can compete with cool factor and a really nice user experience.

Translation: no matter how good it is, it won't sell unless it's shiny and has 'Apple' written on it?

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[itsdapead]

and no company has yet to produce a "killer" phone to put them in the dominant position.

You're assuming that "dominant position" means "top selling". There are other forms of dominance - one of which is illustrated by the fact that we're having this discussion at all. The iPhone has become the benchmark against which any new smartphone is judged by the press and blogosphere.

It's the double standard - Apple products are okay as long as they have a "cool factor" (your words, not mine), but other products are held to some impossible standard of "must be able to do everything that any other phone can do, and more".

Thing is, Apple don't try for the ultimate feature list: they decide which features most people will actually want, and implement them well.

E.g. the iPhone famously doesn't have MMS. My HTC Windows Mobile smartphone does, and I've sent exactly 1 MMS message which took half an hour of faffing around to discover that you have to set the camera to the right resolution for MMS before you take the photo (and then remember to un-set it when you want to take a good quality photo). I think WM has cut & paste (another area where the iPhone gets slated) but buggered if I could successfully copy an EMAIL address from a text message into the contacts... The WM media player is unusable (iPhone is excellent); the web browser is unusable (iPhone may not have Flash and Java, but IE Mobile barely has HTML). On WM I can use my own MP3s as ringtones, but from the number of missed calls I get, I strongly suspect that people are hanging up before WM has got round to staring the player. Oh, and the phone is so carefully designed that its impossible to pick up in a hurry without pushing one of the buttons thoughtfully positioned exactly where you natually hold it (another reason for dropped calls). Maybe the iPhone camera isn't the best: but if I gave a toss about picture quality I'd use a proper camera with a proper lens: I've yet to successfully take anything other than a blurry mess with WM.

...so until I've had my hands on any new "iPhone killer" and determined that the impressive feature list has actually been implemented by someone with a clue and some capacity for attention to detail (i.e. it isn't a Windows Mobile device with a lipstick-on-a-pig iPhone lookalike skin) I'll reserve judgement.

I did have a play with the Google G1, and really, really want to like it, but the hardware is frankly bizzarre, the "real" keyboard is so small and untactile that its no better than the iPhone's on-screen keyboard and the processor doesn't have enough grunt to run the (not bad looking) web browser smoothly.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[bpeikes]

As for API, Palm was the first to really support their developers. I wrote apps for the first Palm, and although their API has changed, as far as I know, they stay out of the way of their developers. Hopefully they follow Apple's ridiculous control freak/greedy path. Palm never tried to squeeze developers, that's why there were so many great apps on the Palm and one of the reasons why Palm took the market by storm when no one else was able to crack the PDA market.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[mspohr]

From the Palm developer site:

And good news for Palm OS developers! There are a number of ways to migrate data from a an existing PDB file to your new WebOS app.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[ultramk]

The "rubber gimp masks" aren't to keep the phones from getting scratched, they are to keep a better grip on them. the damn things are slippery, especially with some of the wii-like games...

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Halo-]

2) Palm is apparently allowing access to the hardware via CSS, HTML, and JavaScript (details are scarce right now), something no one else does right now

Yeah... what could possibly go wrong with that idea? :)

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[crazycheetah]

WebOS has a Linux kernel. So, really, there's a degree of open in there. It's just whether they're ever going to take it farther that would be the question. Who knows.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Archangel Michael]

"let alone have a chance at even guessing the specs?"

Exactly right!

I used to sell cars. Cars and computers are often similar in how they are sold. Take a look at a window sticker of a new car, and see all the "options" and "Upgrades" listed. Computers are marketed the same exact way ... "ATI VIDEO UPGRADE" is the same as "Alpine Stereo" or whatever, it is better than what the "stock" option is.

However, I'd compare Apple vs Dell/HP/Gateway etc as comparing Honda vs GM/Ford/Chrysler.

Honda sells Accords, there are only a few ways one can get an Accord. They have Two engines, three trim models. Their sticker is empty compared to a Taurus or whatever. Taurus has three engine options and who knows how many trim levels, and beyond trim levels you have all sorts of weird option packages and upgrades.

The limited choice of Apple and Honda are part of what makes it a GOOD choice, it is a very known quantity. If you say you have a MacBook Pro, people know you have one of a couple of options. It really is narrowed down. You say you have a Pavillion, I doubt you could get anyone to guess the specs.

The difference is differentiation by Experience (Honda/Apple) vs Differentiation by Spec (HP/FORD)

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[stuntpope]

This has only happened to me when dragging trash and I miss the trash can before releasing the mouse button. I can wind up with an icon partially under the dock. Never has gone completely under the dock, but at any rate, I could always hide the dock to then grab and move the icon to another spot on the desktop.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[SleepingWaterBear]

For example I will use OS X and Ubuntu with AWN. They both have a fancy dock. AWN has way more features then the Mac OS X Dock. However it isn't really that usable. Things such as if you run a new app. I want to right click the running application and say keep on dock. Or just being able to drag and drop an App into awn from your file system browser... And get the correct Icon. Being able to group all open windows of the same application together. I am not talking about eyecandy, (like the OS X animations when you zoom in) but actual usability that people tend to miss when trying to copy the idea.

You might want to check out Cairo Dock. I tried AWN for a while, but found it lacking; I think that Cairo Dock has most if not all the features you mention. If you're using Ubuntu, make sure to use the Cairo-Dock Repo, the version in the default repo is out of date and ridiculously buggy.

Re:How many iPhone killers is that?

[Lars T.]

You know, kind of an EMP that only acts on devices associated with smugness.

Just use a hammer on anything you own.

killer phone

[FireStormZ]

quick its coming right at us /ned

Two important points ...

[daveime]

1 - Is is shiny ?

2 - Will it blend ?

Re:Two important points ...

[steveo777]

The pictures look shiny... only one test left..

*Finally* matches/betters the iPhone?

[VShael]

There have been plenty of phones on the world market better than the iPhone for some time now.
The iPhone wasn't even the best phone in the world when it came out.

Re:*Finally* matches/betters the iPhone?

[mdwh2]

I am in full agreement. Sure, the Iphone is a nice phone, but it's just one of many. To be fair, the fault is with PC Pro rather than Slashdot who are just quoting this nonsensical statement ("finally matches and even betters the Apple iPhone").

Although in a way, it's a cunning statement - whilst fans would want to accept PC Pro's belief that the Iphone is the Best Phone Ever, they can't agree with this statement without admitting that the Palm is better than the Iphone. For the rest of us, who have been using phones long before the Iphone joined the market late, we'll just ignore the statement and judge the Palm against the market as a whole.

Re:*Finally* matches/betters the iPhone?

[cowscows]

Palm built a brand once. Then they squandered it. They could build it again.

Apple went through the same pattern.

Re:*Finally* matches/betters the iPhone?

[blueZ3]

I think that would be hard for Palm to do.

Back when I got my first Palm (a IIIe) in 2000 or so, Palm was the epitome of gadgety-goodness: simple to use, long battery life, and open to development. I'm not even trained a programmer and I tinkered with Palm programming (heck, for a couple of months I was actually working on a Palm program for an employer). I owned that original IIIe, a IIIc (with color!), a T-3 and two Treos. Palm devices were simple, fast, and reliable--with a user interface that wasn't cloned from a desktop metaphore (curse you, Bill Gates, and your idiotic WinCE, too).

Unfortunately, as the world of mobile computing moved on around Palm (and my Palm devices), Palm stood still. The Treo was still using the hideous Blazer browser and the applications and interface were stuck in the 90's. I kept hoping against hope that Palm would come out with their forever-promised-but-never-delivered Linux OS, but it never happened.

When my second Treo died an untimely death in an unfortunate swimming pool accident, I bought "just a phone" and never looked back.

I think that for most people interested in Smart Phones, Palm says: old-fashioned, poorly supported, and not really up-to-snuff. Much like American car manufacturers have to fight the poor-quality, unreliable image long after their cars have become competitive, Palm will have an image problem for quite some time.

Too bad, really. They were giants, once.

No GSM support in the US?

[thammoud]

Only Sprint. I don't think switching will even be a consideration for a lot of people. Palm always finds a way to screw themselves. Too bad, looks like a great phone.

Re:No GSM support in the US?

[Enry]

Verizon has at least one phone (Blackberry 8830) that works on both CDMA and GSM.

Re:No GSM support in the US?

[Rizz]

The Sprint Simply Everything line of plans are absolutely fantastic and well priced. All Sprint has needed was a phone to match (ala a Instinct with a real web browser). Maybe this is it?

Looks cool, but...

[MikeRT]

It'll probably be too little, too late. Palm could have been the superpower in this area by building a new OS based on BeOS when they bought Be's assets. In fact, if they had forked BeOS by creating a proprietary new mobile OS for their products and ditching the original BeOS as a BSD-licensed product, they could have put both Microsoft and Apple on the defensive in the operating system market.

Re:Looks cool, but...

[yttrstein]

BeOS lost the OS wars long before Palm bought it. They lost by doing the worst thing that they could have possibly ever done:

They made a lightning fast, small, good looking, stable, awe-inspiring operating system that didn't actually run anything useful.

ipod to zune and iphone to Palm's killer new phone

[utahraptor]

I love analogies.

From the TFA

[denzacar]

For example, Duarte cattily said: "By popular demand we've allowed you to remove the back and replace the battery," which was greeted with much enthusiasm from the largely American crowd.

Re:From the TFA

[UnknowingFool]

I couldn't find out any details about battery life of the Palm. One of the arguments that Apple has given was that making the battery non-removable gave the iPhone longer life.

WebOS -- "WEB"-OS

[wsidegangstarr]

The OS is the only real potential gamechanger here, and I'm not so sure about it. Engadget( http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-announces-web-os-platform/ ) claims that WebOS is designed to be simple for programmers and is based on HTML, XML, and CSS. Don't know about you, but I just can't wait for another feature limited mobile OS. Also, the prospect of a data breach on an OS designed around a write-up language and online functionality ruins my day.

Re:WebOS -- "WEB"-OS

[Hal_Porter]

WebOS is designed to be simple for programmers and is based on HTML, XML, and CSS.

Next!

Re:WebOS -- "WEB"-OS

[larry bagina]

Konfabulator and Dashboard widgets are based on html/xml, css, and javascript, too. It doesn't need to be limited or require internet access.

Re:WebOS -- "WEB"-OS

[MobyDisk]

HTML + CSS is not a programming language.
HTML + CSS + Javascript is a bad, poor performing, cobbled together language.

Re:WebOS -- "WEB"-OS

[SuperKendall]

I think the idea of using Javascript with a custom API is actually not a bad one, as long as whatever SDK is offered has extensive tie-ins to the OS. There's been enough work around speeding up Javascript now with Squirrelfish and Google's stuff that the performance of that doesn't even concern me a great deal for most apps...

However I am right there with you on wondering what the security implications are of using the same model for your browser as your applications. The model they have of having to install the application may provide the answer in that in normal browsing no extended features are offered, and you have to agree to install an application... but potential holes in that firewall make things a little more risky.

The phone looks very interesting, but the reality of how good it really is I think awaits the release of the SDK. But I do think this is the only phone Palm could have released and still maintained itself as a separate entity - if they had gone Android they would have been absorbed before too long by one of the other cell phone makers.

Very interesting...

Killer Fast Phone

[andrewd18]

"Our new Palm phone will be faster than ever, now that we've switched over to Reiser4!"

Can Palm do anything right?

[Paul Carver]

I absolutely loved my Palm Pilot Pro and gladly paid for the Palm III upgrade module for it. I eagerly bought a Palm V but I was disappointed when I got a Tungsten E and even more disappointed to discover that the 802.11 add in card simply wouldn't work with the Tungsten E.

My Palm TX is a huge disappointment and I would have returned it (or never bought it in the first place) except that I have a major need for one specific specialized application that uses 802.11.

I've heard awful things from people with Palm based phones.

Palm has bungled one generation after another. I've just lost any confidence in them being able to do anything competent.

Re:Can Palm do anything right?

[gklinger]

Might I inquire as to the nature of your disappointment with the Palm TX? I'm a long time Palm (and Sony Clie) user and I feel that the Palm TX, anachronism aside, is the best Palm-OS device I've ever owned. Unfortunately, it will probably be the last Palm-OS device I ever own.

This could save Palm

[moosesocks]

Support Verizon, and I'll be the first in line for this. Why is it that we never get any love from the phone manufacturers?

I don't think it's *quite* on the level of the iPhone, though it certainly seems to have come the closest of any thus far. The UI looks a lot nicer than Android, and the hardware nicer than the iPhone (physical keyboard FTW).

As long as Palm make the price reasonable, and keep the application interface as open as possible, they'll sell a ton of these.

Frankly, I'm impressed, given that virtually everyone's been expecting Palm to kick the bucket in the near future.

Re:This could save Palm

[anethema]

Sprint operates on CDMA(for the most part) just like Verizon. Your choices 1 and 2 are actually the same.

Not to mention, the list of places is not just USA and Canada, but this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDMA2000#Countries_with_CDMA2000_operators

There are 11 companies offering CDMA phone networks here in Canada alone.

That being said, GSM is far more ubiquitous, but this is not the choice they made.

Oh ffs

[Harold Halloway]

Can I mod down the original summary? 'Finally'? I've got an Android G1 and it beats the pants off the iPhone.

More detailed links

[IceCreamGuy]

From Ars: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090108-palm-launches-new-handset-pre-operating-system-at-ces.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090108-resurrection-on-video-hands-on-with-the-palm-pre.html
More details and analysis than the PCPro story.

videos

[crabbz]

Some videos of the new platform are up at palmcentral. The second one shows a live demo. Looks nice.

but can you make phone calls with it?

[Gothmolly]

Can I open it up, punch buttons, and make a phone call? Can I drop it w/o it shattering? Can I lose it, without losing my entire personal identity?

Killer?

[dancingmad]

I'm a Mac fan, but generally use the best tool I can and I don't have an iPhone or an iPod Touch, so I don't believe I really have a dog in this fight (for the record I have a Blackberry Curve [which is so=so at best], but mainly live in Japan and so have one of last year's au/WIN phones).

But this article's summary reminds of CmdrTaco's famous predictions for the original iPod. I read TFA and the phone pictured there doesn't look like an iPod killer. It doesn't even look like a phone from the last five years - it looks like fat, bulgy little free-with-service American phone from 2000 or 2001.

No one is going to beat Apple on specs. For better or for ill, the company is brilliant at style and presentation and those are huge factors in the iPhone's successes.

Moreover, the iPhone is out NOW and macrumors and other Apple sites are already beginning to rumble with information about the new iPhone software - the iPhone is moving ahead, with that and the App Store and where is this Palm phone?

A cell phone is a status symbol once again and until a good phone matches the iPhone in that arena, it's not going to kill it. I don't expect this Palm phone to, to be sure.

Re:Killer?

[AndyboyH]

You're right about still no copy and paste, but just FYI*, the iPhone 3G has a standard headphone socket.

(And just for pedantry - the original did too, but it was recessed by about 3mm (iirc) so a load of headphones with bulky surrounds to the actual jack plugs wouldn't fit without trimming them down.)

* /me waits for the wisecrack about the 90s calling and wanting their abbreviation back...

better phones

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPhone is all about the hype. I doubt any phone can match that. From hardware point of view - there are dozens of phones better than iPod. As for software - iPhone is the best on the ease-of-use field but does not at all offer as much variety and flexibility as WinMo based phones.

Phones to look for (better than the palm):
htc touch HD, samsung omnia, asus glaxy7, ericsson x1

Technical details absent

[rwa2]

I tried for some time last night to sift out Palm Pre details that Slashdot might actually find interesting, but no strong leads.

The PC Mag article was the only one I could find that touches on anything beyond the press release materials from CES:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338482,00.asp

FTA:
* Does it run Linux? Maybe, but only according to rumors.

* Will existing PalmOS apps run on it? Hard to tell from their mangled wording, but probably not. However, it seems like their new WebOS SDK /might/ make it somewhat simple to recompile for the new platform.

So, as a Palm addict, it seems like I still have a long time to try to keep my ailing TX working until I can find a suitable platform to upgrade to. (So far, the main contender for me is the Nokia N810, which runs Linux and actually has a Palm Garnet emulation environment available for it)

Re:Technical details absent

[KlaymenDK]

* It does run Linux.

* It does NOT support Garnet VM and the old PalmOS apps. This is actually a big deal for me and my beloved T3, but it's not out yet so I'm not panicking ... yet.

Why it will fail

[kisa2000]

1. Mobile phones these days are computing platforms. The reason why Microsoft dominates the desktop market is because the vast majority of software runs on it (hey, Macs are cool too, but they don't have the range of PC software). Apple's iPhone has already claimed that victory - to beat the iPhone, one needs to provide an easy way of uploading software, and, IMHO, a way of verifying the quality of the applications.

2. Apple has the advantage that it could leverage off the existing developer base for the Mac - that is, the development environments aren't completely different. Try releasing any computing platform in which people have to learn *another* darn computer programming framework/language and see how you go. Computer languages take *years* to grow to a critical mass.

3. Every technology marketer is saying "blah killer" at the moment. Can you honestly imagine the Palm marketing executives saying, "our phone is pretty powerful, but we really will have to see if the community adopts it and develops worthwhile applications for it". At the same time, all the little journalist worker bees have to get page hits in this new online news world. "iPhone killer" turns up constantly, because it gets clicks. Your here and I am here aren't we :-)

Thanks but no thanks.

[handmedowns]

After purchasing two of Palm's high end smart phones in the past, I've learned my lesson. They *DO NOT* support their phones. As soon as there's even an idea of a newer phone coming out, they drop all support for existing platforms and no more updates are ever seen for yours.

For example, they're currently releasing updates for the Centro series (a $99 phone) but not their 750series (a $500 phone) that are just over a year old. Way to reward your business customers palm.

Palm didn't say that

[ConfusedVorlon]

to be fair to palm, they have been very careful about avoiding the term 'iPhone killer'

From Newsweek:
>>>
So: is it an iPhone killer? McNamee wishes people wouldn't ask that question. "Everyone in the cell-phone business has missed the point. They're all trying to make an iPhone killer. I don't want to compete with Apple. Why the hell would you want to get in the way of that machine? I look at the guys who are trying to compete with Apple and I think, Are you guys crazy? I just want to learn from Apple's experience."
>>>

Re:Let's get serious.

[nicolas.kassis]

Zimbra

would you buy a cell phone with NO support?

[v1]

I have a T3 and I know a dozen people with palm pilots. If there is ONE thing we can all agree on, it's that palm's support for their product is next to nonexistent. If you have a problem with your palm pilot, you'd better start looking in the various independent forums for help from other palm users. If they can't help you, you're just plain screwed.

I don't care if palm DOES come up with a better product than the iphone, I won't touch it with a 10 ft pole. Right now I am trying to decide whether to ditch my T3 for a touch or for an iPhone, so I can keep notes and have my addressbook on the go. Syncing on my T3 has been iffy at best, and is currently totally nonfunctional unless I want it to breed duplicates and erase data every time I sync, and the palm desktop software hasn't been updated in years.

I know that the touch and iphone will sync flawlessly with my computer, and I won't get that sickening feeling every time I sync it, wondering what it's going to erase this time. I get asked from time to time for help with others' palm pilots, and I hate to give them help because I feel so totally helpless in trying to prevent the thing from self-destructing their contacts. All I can do is make backups continuously throughout the process. The inability to make a backup of the PP directly into its SD card makes initial syncing one of the most dangerous computer tasks I ever have to deal with. I've seen palm desktop sync from an empty computer TO the palm, totally erasing it, on numerous occasions, despite following directions carefully. It's almost random. And once the computer and the palm get sufficiently out of sync, it creates such a mess that you have to wipe one and pray it syncs from the non-empty one to the one you wiped. I can't stand that.

Stay away from palm, please.

Fastest?

[cbiltcliffe]

and what Palm described as the 'fastest ever' Texas Instruments OMAP processor."

Only if you hurl it from your car window on the freeway at 90 MPH.

Maybe that's where the "killer new phone" comment comes from, too....

Re:Palm never got their PalmOS to the point where

[cbiltcliffe]

Wierd. I've had a Palm for years, and it's only ever crashed once, and that was when I was testing out some beta OSS app on it that I thought I might want to use.

What there need to be an iPhone killer?

[jotaeleemeese]

That would be a sensible aim if the iPhone was the market leader.

Now, show us some reference where the iPhone is shown to be leading the market.

From Nokia's Q3 report:

"Nokia estimated mobile device market share of 38%, down from 39% in Q3 2007 and down from 40%
in Q2 2008."

and later

"NOKIA MOBILE DEVICE VOLUME BY GEOGRAPHIC AREA (million units) Q3/2008 Q3/2007 YoY
Change Q2/2008 QoQ
Change
Europe 27.4 29.0 -5.5% 27.1 1.1%
Middle East & Africa 21.5 19.3 11.4% 21.1 1.9%
Greater China 19.8 18.9 4.8% 17.6 12.5%
Asia-Pacific 33.6 29.5 13.9% 36.4 -7.7%
North America 4.5 5.4 -16.7% 4.5 0.0%
Latin America 11.0 9.6 14.6% 15.3 -28.1%
Total 117.8 111.7 5.5% 122.0 -3.4%
"

From Apple's 2008 Q4 report: "Quarterly iPhone units sold were 6,892,000"

So Nokia is selling 117 million units, Apple is selling 7 million.

According to Nokia's report the global market for the period was 300 million units.

Again, why do we need to kill the iPhone?

That the iPhone is mentioned as the aim to be killed is a testament to the marketing skills of Apple.

The general public is not that stupid: we don't want network lockin (not in Europe, not in East Asia, the biggest mobile markets) and people are clearly finding the iPhone deals extortionate.

Certainly other companies need to do something about the mindshare that Apple is enjoying now, but I wonder how important that is going to be once Steve Jobs leaves Apple. His marketing based vision of the company will be difficult to be push by somebody that is not as charismatic as him (he has been described as a cult leader, which is not far from the truth).

Re:What there need to be an iPhone killer?

[jotaeleemeese]

Yeah, sure, lies, damned lies and statistics, the tools of the marketing gurus.

It is like that baseball player in a movie who is fired but claims it is unfair since he broke the record for triples for a month of August.

Re:What there need to be an iPhone killer?

[JWallyR]

Certainly other companies need to do something about the mindshare that Apple is enjoying now, but I wonder how important that is going to be once Steve Jobs leaves Apple. His marketing based vision of the company will be difficult to be push by somebody that is not as charismatic as him (he has been described as a cult leader, which is not far from the truth).

While I agree that the numbers make the idea of an "iPhone Killer" somewhat silly, can we please put to rest this idea that Apple is driven by marketing? It's so far from the truth it's laughable. Apple makes products that are based on being designed for aesthetics and ease of use. The fact that they use well-designed marketing campaigns to promote their products is (and always has been) secondary to the design that goes into the products themselves. Besides, one would think that the landslide victory of the iPod in the personal music player arena would have driven home the fact that feature laundry lists aren't necessary for good appliance-type products, which is the other point that people who think Apple is all about marketing usually miss.

I'm not even sure what a good example of a marketing-based company is. Usually it seems more like shoddy companies just try to use marketing to shore up their shoddy products. My 2Â, anyway.

Apple showed it is never too late.

[jotaeleemeese]

Apple was in the doldrums before Steve Jobs' come back.

Microsoft invested money on them for crying out loud.

Palm has a brand recognition that can be put to good use, if they come with a good product they could become big players again. Openness is key, they should remember how quickly Palm became ubiquitous thanks to the easy access to development tools.

sorry!

[goombah99]

Ooh, I can use it as an actual music player now :D

Now, if I could just *afford* it...

I hate being in college sometimes.

from the answer:
"Though the demonstration was impressive, notable absentees from the demo were video streaming and any in-depth show of the music player."

It also has an externally replaceable battery, so one guesses the individual batteries won't last as long as an iphone or else it's thick as a brick. (they don't give the dimensions or show it in profile)

No mention of the enterprise-like push apps that Rim and iphone now sport. No mention of corresponding desktop based easy-management software like itunes or me.com

and of course it is yet-another OS. is there an SDK?

Re:sorry!

[el_gordo101]

It also has an externally replaceable battery, so one guesses the individual batteries won't last as long as an iphone or else it's thick as a brick. (they don't give the dimensions or show it in profile)

Why would one guess that the battery won't last as long as the one in the iPhone? One would think that a user-replaceable consumable such as a battery would be a good thing

Re:sorry!

[The Wooden Badger]

Especially when Apple is involved.

Re:sorry!

[dotgain]

Great, but what's under the hood? Linux? Some update to the old PalmOS? Apple's Copland OS?

Most importantly, it isn't Windows Mobile. I'm sure it's still well within' Palm's capacity to make a device seriously suck without it, but they'll have their work cut out for them.

Re:sorry!

[tcolberg]

Damn dude, google. http://developer.palm.com/

Apparently, it's Linux underneath with all the apps written in web languages, like HTML, CSS, and Java.

Re:sorry!

[Planesdragon]

"Though the demonstration was impressive, notable absentees from the demo were video streaming and any in-depth show of the music player."

PalmOS has had PocketTunes for years -- and Pandora already has a version for WebOS. Music player won't be a problem.

Video streaming? Don't know. Don't REALLY care.

It also has an externally replaceable battery, so one guesses the individual batteries won't last as long as an iphone or else it's thick as a brick. (they don't give the dimensions or show it in profile)

If you bother'd to look:

"Dimensions: 59.57mm (W) x 100.53mm (L, closed) x 16.95mm (D) [2.35 inches (W) x 3.96 inches (L, closed) x 0.67 inches (D)] " (link)

The iPhone not having a user-replaceable battery is just dumb. It's the one thing on a device that WILL wear out, and it's also the one that gets the most benefit from being user-replaceable.

No mention of the enterprise-like push apps that Rim and iphone now sport. No mention of corresponding desktop based easy-management software like itunes or me.com

1: Did you even WATCH the presentation? Yes, it can do enterprise-push. The darn thing screams enterprise in the OS.

2: If you think iTunes software is "easy", then I'm certain Palm won't be a problem for you. They didn't mention it because, quite frankly, they're not focused on desktopy sync.

and of course it is yet-another OS. is there an SDK?

It's HTML5, CSS, and javascript. And yes, there will be an SDK packaged with an eclipse-based IDE.

And no one has ever lied about having a killer pru

[Genevish]

And no one ever was wrong about the next product that would knock Apple out of the lead in a niche:

http://gizmodo.com/384440/rim-engineers-call-touchscreen-blackberry-apple-killer
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/02/08/songbird-the-open-so.html
http://mediamemo.allthingsd.com/20081215/amazons-mp3-store-one-year-in-no-itunes-killer-probably-wont-be/
http://www.allfacebook.com/2007/10/facebook-to-launch-itunes-competitor/
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/business/appleaday/blog/2008/07/dells_ipod_killer_revealed_pro.html
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1027_3-5183692.html

Is everything about an iphone killer?

[drolli]

Symbian os still outsells ihpones grossly.

On the other hand, i remind whhat i love about my palm m105

-ran on 2AAA batteries for several weeks (if uses at phone book/clock/calendar). The baterries were available at the end of the world and it ran on rechargeable.
-monochrome display was readable in sunlight and had soft eye-friendly illumination
-the clock/calendar worked and did not crash (i had a z31 after that and found crashes in very basic functions)
-synchronization was easy
-memory was enough to have one or two dictionaries installed

I wonder how why palm wants to compete in the market where they are trying to compete now. would they produce a m105 with an e-paper display and in a more flat case and with flash, i would buy it without thinking twice. Would they integrate on of the power-saving an somple models with a few basic funcion (implemented decently) like email, simple web (no, youtube is not needed-and neither is flash) and UMTS (i need that since i live in Japan), i also would buy it.

 

Which PalmOS?

[argent]

I don't know if Palm is even currently selling anything that runs the original PalmOS. They throw in the towel on operating systems so often you need a scorecard to tell whether garnet/ruby/cubic-zirconium/mudstone is or is not vaporware.

The original PalmOS running under AMX was about as solid as anything I've seen on 1980-era hardware (the original Palm was running on a bug-compatible 68000 implementation). When they started playing musical-operating-systems and running applications under what appeared to be a port of UAE (an open-source 68000 emulator they used as part of their devkit) on ARM things just went to hell. "Oh, that's just temporary until we do BeOS... uh, no, I mean Linux... oh hell, we'll license Windows CE... hey, seen our NEW Linux variant yet?"

So, no, they didn't have "10 years and 5 commercial releases to get it right". They've been suffering from corporate AD&D since Hawkins returned.

Re:Developer Friendly...Apple?!? Joking, Right?

[ColdWetDog]

Sucks to be a VB4 developer, doesn't it?

whoopsie

[up2ng]

ooooo so close

"It's coming right for us!" - Jimbo

there thats better

Re:Before we know if this is a joke or not....

[Fri13]

It runs Linux Operating System version 2.6.x and with few software what gives the touch-screen capabilities it makes together a software platform called WebOS (not an operating system but a software system).

Re:ipod to zune and iphone to Palm's killer new ph

[linhares]

I love analogies

So does Douglas Hofstadter

Re:Developer Friendly...Apple?!? Joking, Right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Geez. Get over yourself. Objective-C isn't that difficult to get your head around if you've done any Java/C++/Smalltalk/Ruby/other OO development. They have some pretty good reasons for using it (the underlying OS uses it), and the tools and documentation that they give you to work with it (XCode/apple developer site) are excellent. As someone who develops software for a living (in Java) I'd be *THRILLED* if the docs that I had to work with from vendors that we deal with were a quarter as good as Apple's.

As for having to buy a Mac - do you think it's possible to develop for windows mobile without having a windows-based PC? I can totally understand Apple's point-of-view here - their time would be much better spent making the tools work, and work well rather than porting them to and testing them on other platforms.

Heh...

[BrokenHalo]

Ah, but I suspect that you haven't read the famous quote from Sigmund Freud:

"Two can live as cheaply as one, especially if they both have good jobs."

Thrown in FWIW as devil's advocacy, since I actually agree, having been married for over 20 years...

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If it has "killer" in the title, it's not

[chord.wav]

"Killer" products innovate, they don't copy other products.

On top of that, I don't need a touchscreen paperweight...I still have my Palm TX for that matter thank you very much!

Sooo...how were the original iPhone apps written?

[danaris]

The real difference between the Palm Pre and the iPhone when it comes to developers, is that all Palm's standard apps that come with the phone were written with javascript, CSS, and HTML. They're "eating their own dogfood", so to speak.

So do you think the original iPhone apps were not written in Objective-C using Xcode?

Dan Aris

Re:I presume you meant GPU?

[lisaparratt]

It's an integrated solution, the GPU is part of the CPU.

Re:Developer Friendly...Apple?!? Joking, Right?

[Sloppy]

And use a language no one but Apple uses instead of industry standards like Java, Javascript, etc that everyone already has years of experience with.

If you have "years of experience" with Java yet think of learning Objective C as anything but absolutely trivial, then face it: you're a lameass programmer.

I don't advocate developers locking themselves into Apple's stuff, but damn, that has got to be one of the stupidest reasons to stay away from Apple, that I have ever heard. You would sound smarter if you had complained about the color of the plastic they use.

data != application ...

[KlaymenDK]

Migrating data is not the same as (sup)porting an application.

Given that the launch date is still far off, there is still a (naive?) possibility that they will support Garnet. But we probably shouldn't hope for it (nor continue to write apps for it).

You can't square that circle.

[jotaeleemeese]

Nokia alone is selling 16 times more phones than Apple.

I went directly to the earning reports of each company, so you will have to explain how the numbers you are quoting fit with what the companies themselves are telling us.

Re:Developer Friendly...Apple?!? Joking, Right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking from deep experience developing for a number of mobile platforms (15+ years), the iPhone's development AND operating environment (note the combination) is by far the most advanced (and this is coming from someone who is not an Apple gearhead - just a developer who likes powerful platforms). Any capable developer who understands object oriented principles (e.g. Java) and understands one compiled language becomes quickly productive in developing iPhone applications.

As for having to buy a Mac, for professional developers, this is a small price to pay vs. the time spent doing development for a platform that can actually make the developer some money (the AppStore is a *real* revenue stream).

Unless Palm provides some sort of native code compiler for javascript (a la Google Chrome), this approach is a non-starter for entire classes of applications that are possible on the iPhone.

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Re:Developer Friendly...Apple?!? Joking, Right?

[Pulzar]

If you have "years of experience" with Java yet think of learning Objective C as anything but absolutely trivial, then face it: you're a lameass programmer.

Don't you have years worth of favourite code snipets in C++, Java, etc. that you've developed and reuse in your projects? Switching to Objective-C isn't about learning the trivial syntax differences, it's about having to rewrite what you have because almost nobody has any Objective-C code lying around.

Because removable batteries add space requirements

[SuperKendall]

Why would one guess that the battery won't last as long as the one in the iPhone?

Because engineering all the space for a compartment with walls (to keep you from screwing up the insides of the phone) and walls around the battery itself (to keep keys from puncturing it in your pocket) all waste space that can be taken up by battery material.

Thus, you either have to make the device larger to compensate or the battery will simply not last as long. Not to mention the processor in the Palm device is faster and probably consumes more energy...

Even with it's slightly larger size the G1 gets mixed revues on battery life for the same reason, when you are running 3G you are eating a ton of battery and there's no avoiding the advantage of more battery material.

Two Income Trap

[shmlco]

"However, with 2 earners you're only losing 40-60% of your household income in the face of a layoff, versus 100% for a 1 income. This makes a 2 earner household more resilient."

A two earner household is only more resilient if, and only if, it can stay afloat for a significant period of time on a single salary. If, as the parent implies, they need BOTH salaries to make the mortgage payment, the car payments, pay the student loans and the credit cards and the other bills, THEN they are susceptible to the Two Income Trap. Lose just one salary in that case, and the ship begins to take on water and sink.

Further, you tend to imply that gross overspending is the major cause behind bankruptcy, when in fact two of the major triggers are job loss and medical problems. Get sick, or involved in a significant accident, and one wage earner can lose their job just when they're getting hit with major medical expenses. Children are a issue too, but often because parents buy that "two income" house in order to be closer to better schools.

If at all possible, it's best to try to keep base expenses within the range of a single salary, and use the second for savings and investments, vacations, eating out, supporting hobbies, and so on. Then, and only then, is a two earner household truly "more resilient" and not susceptible to "the trap".

Re:I presume you meant GPU?

[Snowblindeye]

I guess you meant GPU rather than CPU. 8-D

No, actually he didn't, he ment what he wrote.

The OMAP 3430 contains an ARM core as well as a lot of support functions, including hardware support for most video formats, image processing and also, as mentioned, OpenGL. Check out the link for an overview.

Re:Palm can't compete with appstore

[rbanffy]

It's not like you can't download Palm software from thousands of different places.

Sure the store is great, but so is choice.

Re:Because removable batteries add space requireme

[mac.man25]

Not to mention the processor in the Palm device is faster and probably consumes more energy...

Um, no. The OMAP CPU is MUCH more energy effient then the ARM9 cpu, look at the difference between the Core and the Pentium 4. Plus the iPhone has TWO, one for the phone modem and one for the applications! (Arguably the Palm I'm sure also has two CPUs.)

Look at the beagle board, it runs a OMAP 3530, has USB, Ethernet, HDMI (with audio), runs at 600MHz, and can display full motion video on a HD display using 11% of the CPU. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_OHe-JfTyk

Oh, and it does all of this while drawing 2 Watts. I'd say that's pretty impressive, also considering the 3530 is the energy hog of the family. Palm is using the 3430, which is pin and software compatable with the 3530. And more effient.