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Microsoft Tag, Smartphone-Scannable Barcodes

dhavleak writes "Microsoft Research has come up with Microsoft Tag: '...just aim your camera phone at a Tag and instantly access mobile content, videos, music, contact information, maps, social networks, promotions, and more. Nothing to type, no browsers to launch!' Device support is fairly extensive (iPhone, WinMo, BlackBerry and more), and tag scanning appears to work quickly and reliably from different distances and angles. Long Zheng has an overview on his site. The Tag is similar to a barcode, but has obvious visual differences — colored vs. black and white, and triangles vs. squares or lines. The technology looks interesting, but will it get the adoption necessary to be successful? What applications do you see for such technology?"

258 comments

  1. Nokia did that already by chetbox · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Nokia have had something similar for ages, but the adoption hasn't been all that quick: http://mobilecodes.nokia.com/ However Microsoft do seem to be making it more obvious to the observer that you need a phone to decode these mysterious images.

    1. Re:Nokia did that already by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nokia had it for ages? Heck the CueCat had it some time ago. Seriously, big deal.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    2. Re:Nokia did that already by Sobrique · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Several people have had 'barcodes' for phones, but the problem has always been one of image recognition. I've just tried my WinMo phone on the image on the MS website, off my screen. I was quite impressed at how well it managed to cope actually - it doesn't seem to require particularly much image quality to differentiate the layout, which is quite a step ahead of the 'snowflakes' I've seen doing this sort of thing before.

    3. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 3, Informative

      Similar but not the same - the combination of color/shapes seems to make the pattern recognition for this very reliable and quick. If you have a smartphone give it a shot and you'll see what I mean. The code in your link is a QR code -- scanning one of those is usually hit-or-miss (and usually more miss than hit).

      Another key difference - a QR code stores the data in the code itself, limiting what you can do with it. These Tags are just a GUID or something like it. The scanning app on your phone will send that number to a service (MS hosted -- that's the monetization I guess). The service responds with the data - which could be a message, URL, vCard, or phone number.

      I can see a bunch of useful applications for stuff like this:
      - Flight Arrival/Departure Info: tags can be posted at easily visible locations around the airport with a sign "scan here for arrival/departure info".
      - Business Cards: You could print a tag (with your vCard associated with it) on your business card. Now for a business contact to get your contact info, all they have to do is scan the tag. No fiddling with data entry on a tiny-ass qwerty to enter a name, phone number, etc.

    4. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      ... give it a shot and you'll see what I mean ...

      Forgot to mention: Easiest way to install it is to point your phone to http://gettag.mobi/

      To give it a whirl, scan any of the tags in this article (same as the main story link).

    5. Re:Nokia did that already by 117 · · Score: 1

      those must be the giant things that seem to have appeared on cans of Pepsi Max in the UK of late, I guessed it must be something like that but I couldn't see anything on the can telling me exactly what I'm supposed to do with it (and frankly I wasn't bothered anyway, I buy a can of Pepsi because I want something to mix with my Jameson, not because I want some kind of 'added value' content)....

    6. Re:Nokia did that already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, but the CueCat was a special-purpose device. If the function is in your phone then it's much more useful.

    7. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Yeah -- those are QR codes. If you have a G1 (I think) or Nokia you should be able to scan that..

    8. Re:Nokia did that already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the barcodes in the OP's link are Datamatrix.

    9. Re:Nokia did that already by crazycheetah · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh god, thank you. I was thinking either someone has to point out how this has been done at least a couple times or my head was going to explode. Especially with this being slashdot.

      I wasn't thinking Nokia, exactly, though. I was actually thinking about my Palm Treo 700w (yeah, with Windows Mobile), where the majority of the applications I used were downloaded with a similar method. The only thing I don't recall ever using is the colored barcodes, but I can't say that gets me the least bit excited about this one.

      Well, and the part about it really just holding a unique ID to get information from Microsoft's servers. But that annoys me more than excites me. I'm sure Microsoft has a great setup with their servers, but I'm always cautious over one company's servers holding it all. The idea where, even if one server holding something I wanted went down, there was at the very least a possibility of finding something similar elsewhere. Plus, it rather gives Microsoft control over what they even put on it, which I'm not a big fan of. It can work, but I like to have every bit of control I can have over the things I own. Which is why I don't, and probably won't, have an (unhacked) iPhone. Yeah, I lose in some respects by that, but for things like my phone, I'll take my complete freedom over features any day. Yeah, the free software movement spoils me a bit...

    10. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You're right -- my bad -- those are Datamatrix codes.

    11. Re:Nokia did that already by Slorv · · Score: 1

      QR-codes, Data Matrix, Beetagg, etc . there are alot of 2D codes around.
      Now MS has decided to add yet another one.

      The advantage of keeping the info inside the code is you are not dependant on a serviceprovider to interpret the code. That's maybe a key feature here when involving MS (and Beetagg an a few more).

      Many services uses a subscription based system where a 2D-code, only has a function as long as the subscription beeing paid. Guess what system MS in using? Real info or interpreted/serverbased?

      Please stay away from those and use codes that has real info in them, just like normal barcodes.

      --
      Bikers.....The only people that understand why a dog hangs his head out a car window.
    12. Re:Nokia did that already by mobby_6kl · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well I gave it a try on my HTC S730 because I have nothing else to do at work. The camera is a pretty shitty 2 megapixel with no autofocus, but it seems to work quite well. The tags are 15mm across once printed and are reliably detected from about 15cm away in rather average lighting (diffuse sunlight, the paper is in the shadow behind some equipment). Doesn't have to be straight down either, something like 45 degrees usually works fine too. Oh, scanning them from the monitor works too, but I thought that won't be a very realistic usage scenario.

      Despite the usual "HURRR M$" sentiment, I think this could be pretty useful, and the implementation is already rather decent. Some people mentioned that color is a drawback, but I don't think so. Most advertising and packaging material I come across nowadays is in color, the only exceptions are perhaps the crappy flyers people try to stick in my face in public places, and I don't care about what's on them anyway.

    13. Re:Nokia did that already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another key difference - a QR code stores the data in the code itself, limiting what you can do with it. These Tags are just a GUID or something like it. The scanning app on your phone will send that number to a service (MS hosted -- that's the monetization I guess). The service responds with the data - which could be a message, URL, vCard, or phone number.

      How exactly is QR more limited? It can store arbitrary data including web links. This Microsoft thing can only store links to Microsoft's server.

    14. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Apparently, they aren't too sensitive to color distortions -- the data seems to be stored in the brightness as opposed to the color. I don't really understand the technical stuff behind it, but see here for an example of monochrome or two-tone tags that work

    15. Re:Nokia did that already by mad_robot · · Score: 1

      I can see a bunch of useful applications for stuff like this: - Flight Arrival/Departure Info: tags can be posted at easily visible locations around the airport with a sign "scan here for arrival/departure info".

      What's wrong with a big TV screen showing a list of flight arrival/departure times? Wouldn't that make life just a little bit easier?

      --
      U1NCaVpYUWdlVzkxSUhkcGMyZ2dlVzkx SUdoaFpHNG5kQ0JpYjNSb1pYSmxaQT09
    16. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      It's possible that I'm wrong about that. Is there a standard for QR codes that describes the formatting of say, a URL or a vCard, etc. etc.? Such a standard would be required for a QR code scanning app to handle the information intelligently (for example, recognize that it just scanned in a URL, so launch web-browser and go there). This scenario works pretty well for Microsoft Tags right now.

      The other thing I was implying regarding the limit - if you have a 100-word message that you need to convey - a QR code with that much information becomes impossible to scan with a cellphone camera. A Microsoft Tag will just work because the message itself isn't encoded in the tag.

      Having said that, if you don't have a data connection, you're SOL right there.

    17. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You can take your cellphone into a lounge/coffee shop/etc. -- try doing that with the TV :)

    18. Re:Nokia did that already by plover · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The advantage of keeping the info inside the code is you are not dependant on a serviceprovider to interpret the code. That's maybe a key feature here when involving MS (and Beetagg an a few more).

      Many services uses a subscription based system where a 2D-code, only has a function as long as the subscription beeing paid.

      There are counter arguments that Microsoft would raise against these kinds of objections.

      • They only work when you're on line, or through their service provider. Well, if the advertisers goal is to get you to their web site, they're not going to do them any good when you're offline, no matter who you're offline to. They would push this argument like "well, you depend on DNS, don't you?"
      • You have to pay Microsoft to host the real URL in their service. Microsoft may be trying to offer statistical or other tracking information that could be more valuable to companies than simply a URL. For example, they could deliver geographical information along with the interpreted URL, telling the site what city or cell tower you scanned it from, or passing along your ID plus your scanning history. I'm not saying that's good from a user or privacy perspective, but it sounds great if you're trying to sell services to companies.

      I'm not saying that I disagree with you, I'm just saying that Microsoft is fully aware of the limitations, and will have taken these arguments into account. Microsoft is making a big push to become the SaaS provider to the world, and being the focal point for direct-to-consumer barcode marketing would be very appealing to them.

      --
      John
    19. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many services uses a subscription based system where a 2D-code, only has a function as long as the subscription beeing paid. Guess what system MS in using? Real info or interpreted/serverbased?

      You make it sound like a really damning accusation.. I'm still trying to figure out what the problem is..

      Say Epic decides to put a Microsoft Tag on the box of Gears of War 3. On scanning it, you get directed to a website with your gamer stats for GoW3. Epic created a tag and associated their data (the URL of their site) with it, and paid Microsoft some fee for the service. You scanned it, got sent to their site, didn't pay anybody anything. I don't understand why you would have a problem with that.

      In terms of the privacy implications (MS knowing that you looked up this URL) - that's a bit paranoid wouldn't you say? Are you saying you don't use webmail or something? Or do you not use Google because they know what you're searching for? You've probably left a footprint on this very site that's far greater than anything you will ever leave by scanning a barcode. Sure there are questions about privacy, data retention, etc. -- but it's no different than any online service you have ever used.

    20. Re:Nokia did that already by 6Yankee · · Score: 1

      HTC Kaiser (O2 XDA Stellar) running WM6.

      "The camera on your phone could not be accessed - 80070037. Close any other applications that may be using it and try again."

      This persisted after closing all apps. Rebooted the phone and it was fine.

      I got a bit frustrated with trying to get the thing to take a photo, pressing all the buttons that made sense - but while I was waving the phone around, it automatically identified the tag and fired up IE without my pressing anything. Now I know how it works, I'm actually quite impressed.

    21. Re:Nokia did that already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this the same one you can find on everything in Japan? (Referring to the Nokia)

    22. Re:Nokia did that already by talz13 · · Score: 1

      And if they need to send a message, they can encode the same link to a site containing the message that the microsoft code uses, and let the user read it online. Since, as you said, "if you don't have a data connection, you're SOL right there."

    23. Re:Nokia did that already by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      QR code stores the data in the code itself, limiting what you can do with it.

      The "data" can be an URL, vCard or phone number (or e-mail address). I'd say it is less limited than the Microsoft approach.

    24. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      No - you got the scenario wrong. Assume you want to send a 100-word message to the user (let's say it's some sort of advisory or whatever - that's immaterial). You do not want to create a website for this purpose -- it's a static message, a website is overkill, has a cost and maintenance hassle for you.

      QR code: encode the message into the code. Pro: you don't need to rely on service uptime. Con: too much data in the tag -- pattern recognition might fail.

      Microsoft tag: the tag still just contains an identifier, and will hit MS's service to fetch your message (not your website -- you didn't want one for this scenario). Pro: pattern recognition should be reliable. Con: reliance on service uptime, and customers having data plans.

      The world's not black and white my friend. There's shades of grey and some CMYK in it as well :)

    25. Re:Nokia did that already by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of that kind of stuff floating around, but suddenly when Microsoft does it it makes into Slashdot.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    26. Re:Nokia did that already by R_Dorothy · · Score: 1

      G1 with the "Barcode Scanner" app will do it.

      --
      Stupid flounders!
    27. Re:Nokia did that already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My phone isn't supported. Thank God.

    28. Re:Nokia did that already by hobbit · · Score: 1

      These Tags are just a GUID or something like it.

      Is it really that much easier to fire up the Microsoft Tag app and get your camera at the right position and angle than to fire up the TinyURL app and type 6 alphanumeric characters? Plus you can store the latter in your auditory loop for a short time.

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    29. Re:Nokia did that already by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      This is completely OT, just answering the question in his sig:

      Can I have my userpage back?

      http://slashdot.org/~mobby_6kl/comments

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    30. Re:Nokia did that already by kd4zqe · · Score: 1

      It's probably just an issue within the cooked ROM. I'm actually running the the official WM6.1 ROM from HTC (bloatware removed) and it worked just fine.

      --
      You're not paranoid if they really ARE out to get you...
    31. Re:Nokia did that already by kd4zqe · · Score: 1

      Why would I (as a carrier) want to spend a boatload of money on a big screen tv, when i can put up a poster with a Tag on it that I got made at Kinkos? It not only uses YOUR display device, but you can bookmark the site and save it for other times that you're not within physical proximity of the Tag. For travel schedules, this is quite nice, and can keep the ammount of displays for non-Tag equipped travelers to a minimum. You don't have to go tromping around the terminal looking for screens. Just pull it up on the mobile.

      --
      You're not paranoid if they really ARE out to get you...
    32. Re:Nokia did that already by mad_robot · · Score: 1

      Why?

      • Because airports have these screens installed anyway
      • Because not all your passengers have mobile phones
      • Because some of your passengers are technologically illiterate
      • Because one bit of chewing gum stuck to your poster could ruin things
      • Because people are already used to seeing departure information on TV screens

      Take your pick

      --
      U1NCaVpYUWdlVzkxSUhkcGMyZ2dlVzkx SUdoaFpHNG5kQ0JpYjNSb1pYSmxaQT09
    33. Re:Nokia did that already by WebCowboy · · Score: 1

      Similar but not the same - the combination of color/shapes seems to make the pattern recognition for this very reliable and quick.

      It seems to me that colour would make the pattern recognition LESS reliable, and using triangles vs. squares wouldn't have noticeable effects either way on reliability. Colour would provide for greater information density, but if you were in certain environments where the ambient light was not white there could be issues unless complementary colours were used---but then if that limitation is in place, why not stick to black and white and use shades of grey (luminance only) to increase density? I think the colour is more of a gimmick.

      Another key difference - a QR code stores the data in the code itself, limiting what you can do with it. These Tags are just a GUID or something like it.

      That is not particularly innovative--that is what UPC is that supermarkets have used for decades. UPC actually has been used to carry both a key and information--the 1st half of the code carries a product ID and the second half the weight to 5 sig. digits in the case of random-weight products like deli items. Storing actual data vs. lookup REMOVES limits on what you can do with the data, not the opposite. The tradeoff is the limitation in quantity. QR code is just an encoding method--the same concept can be applied using this open standard instead of locked-in systems like MSFT's doomed-to-failure system.

      I can see a bunch of useful applications for stuff like this:

      - Flight Arrival/Departure Info: tags can be posted at easily visible locations around the airport with a sign "scan here for arrival/departure info".

      - Business Cards: You could print a tag (with your vCard associated with it) on your business card. Now for a business contact to get your contact info, all they have to do is scan the tag. No fiddling with data entry on a tiny-ass qwerty to enter a name, phone number, etc.

      Neither is a new application. I can already do paperless boarding at the airport where I live. Bar-code and matrix-code readers are widely available that read right off of cellphone screens that are used when staff need to read the boarding pass. Standard cellphones with integrated cameras could be capable of processing bar-codes and matrix-codes with the right software. PCs with webcams can do this with already available software (it is Free software too). As this technology is already deployed throughout many major airports all they'd have to do is put a bar-code or matrix-code in more places.

      The business card idea is not new either. Where I worked after finishing at university we were in the industry (data collection integration and automation--bar-code scanning and printing and so forth), and in 1998 we all put bar-codes on the back of our cards that decoded into a URL. It was less useful 10 years ago than it would be today, but if you opened your web browser and used a scanner attached to your PC it would take you to our company web page with our profiles.

      In Japan, many smart phones can interpret bar-codes already, and such codes are starting to appear in public places as well. Of course, US and Canada are 3rd world nations from a telecommunications services standpoint, so it is less forthcoming.

      Anyways, I think codes on business cards are of limited utility, why bother with a piece of paper when you can beam v-card data between cellphones directly? The future is more like the airport scenario:

      * put a code on the bus stop sign to bring up the schedule and ETA of next bus at that stop (where I live there are already 4-digit number codes you can text to the transit authority to get the info, but snapping a picture might be easier, especially when it's cold and hard to type with gloves on)

      * put a code on realtor signs so if you are house hunting and see a house for sale, you can pull over and click a picture of the sign and g

    34. Re:Nokia did that already by Slorv · · Score: 1

      To me it's like rather easy. It's a choice between a closed service based system or an open one.

      There are some open ones like datamatrix and semi open ones like QR-codes. Both already has wide usage. Maybe not in the US. Yet. But they're also bigger in size and not fancy looking like beetag or this oldnew color based one from MS.

      A subscribed code is considerably smaller physically but it has shorter lifespan. It works only as long as I pay the fee to the services provider. Also, as you say, I have no knowledge where the info of hits on the codes ends up. So, the're small but we don't have complete controll over the usage and they cost us as long as we want to use them.

      Open system and system that has the info within the code will work as long as they're readable. They contain the info/url so there's no interpreting middle man. If we only care we can set up the same system to save the statistics on what phones are used, when, from where etc. It's bigger but open and are 'safer' to use.

      Even more important: People want it easy. The mobile phone is the obvious hw-reader but we don't want to mess with several applications for different types of code. So by NOT using systems like data matrix/QR-codes we learn the public to use other ones for instance serviced based ones. So eventually when the service based system becomes unusable or to highly priced we're faced with a "strange" open system code not the public doesn't understand or are willing to learn how to use.

      --
      Bikers.....The only people that understand why a dog hangs his head out a car window.
    35. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Colour would provide for greater information density, but if you were in certain environments where the ambient light was not white there could be issues unless complementary colours were used

      According to a bit of a bit of tinkering around, the data is stored in the brightness (4 levels - so 2 bits per triangle) rather than the color. The color helps cellphone cameras callibrate according to whatever the incident light conditions are. The tags will work in monochrome as well, but you'll get best results with color.

      The tradeoff is the limitation in quantity

      The tradeoff with QR codes and such is the limitation in quantity. It's also in inferior pattern recognition. The tradeoff with MS Tags is net access.

      I can already do paperless boarding at the airport where I live.

      My suggestion had nothing to do with boarding. In an airport, you can watch the monitors for flight info, or listen for announcements. If the monitor has a tag next to my flight, I can scan the tag and get up to the minute information on my flight. Now I can go to the lounge, coffee shop, whatever, and rest assured that I'm not going to miss any announcement. In any case it's just an example. You can choose to not see the point if you wish (it seems you've already made that choice).

      if you opened your web browser and used a scanner attached to your PC it would take you to our company web page with our profiles.

      Your scanner + PC are very heavy and non-portable compared to my cell phone. I'll take this solution any day.

      why bother with a piece of paper when you can beam v-card data between cellphones directly

      You can't beam stuff to an iPhone (for example). Does beaming work across OSes (like winmo to blackberry) -- I don't know. The iphone is a valid scenario too -- people exchange numbers outside of work as well. In any case, I repeat, this was just an example. You don't even have to print the tag on your card. You could simply carry an image of it on your phone. Someone else pointed out another cool app -- tagging exhibits in museums and stuff so you can get more information on them than what can be physically displayed.

      None of this requires a new encoding format nor does it require a closed single-vendor service to accompany it.

      Yes -- the existing formats were inadequate. Either they suffered from poor patter recognition results, or they failed entirely in poor ambient conditions, or they had practical limits to the amount of data they could carry. MS tags get beyond this, but require a net connection. Your paranoia about a single-vendor service is also misplaced. Privacy concerns are always valid for services of this nature. But in terms of you as a consumer trusting the provider -- you already place much greater trust in single entities -- think search engines, webmail, etc.

    36. Re:Nokia did that already by talz13 · · Score: 1

      I guess my point is, if this MS project goes down, every bit of info stored there goes down with it. If you encode a message or anything in a regular 2d barcode like a QR, it will retain its utility as long as you can read it.

      What they should really do is use QR or some existing standard, and link to their proprietary information sharing service. Their service could provide a convenient (twitter like?) interface to simply create and upload a message and print the barcodes to access the url. Isn't that basically what would happen if MS used their backend that they're pushing, but used existing 2d barcode standards to do it?

    37. Re:Nokia did that already by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Not the same? It's exactly the same as what Japan has been doing for ages. Adding colour and changing squares to triangles just trying to cover up the fact you've ripped off yet another idea.

    38. Re:Nokia did that already by ChatHuant · · Score: 1

      The "data" can be an URL, vCard or phone number (or e-mail address). I'd say it is less limited than the Microsoft approach.

      OTOH, the data on the server can be updated, while the contents of the tag don't have to change; this expands the usefulness of the tags to lots of new areas - like the flight delays example in previous posts. Or imagine you generate your "business card" tag - you can give it to your contacts and won't need to worry about obsolete info if you can change your job title, address or phone number.

    39. Re:Nokia did that already by bopo_the_mofo · · Score: 1

      Same thing has been used in Europe for ages now. Not QR code, but a similar thing. Orange (Mobile operator) have been shipping devices with 'Mobile Tag' on for some time - think I last saw it on a Sony-Ericsson device. You can also download the software yourself.

      You can have 'direct' tags (where the tag contains a small amount of information) or 'indirect' (where the tag contains a reference string which is passed to a URL to get the information. It can point to vCard, vCal etc, link to other web addresses and so on.

      The software is available as native WinMobile or a java client, and with the right JSR support you don't need to take a picture, just point the camera phone at the advert, poster, computer screen and the tag will get spotted. I have a mobile tag in my e-mail sig at work, which points to a vCard containing all my contact information - yeah, I could attach a vCard, but it is my customer's technology so they like it. I can also have one on my business cards... other cool apps are company contacts details on adds and posters, "Don't forget to watch 'Lost' on Saturday" with a reminder vCal tag on the advert, "Visit our restaurant" with location details in the tag... I could go on...

      So, yeah... well done Micro$oft for copying something then making a noise about it.

      THE WHEEL! THE WHEEL! LOOK AT US... WE JUST INVENTED THE DAMNED WHEEL!!

    40. Re:Nokia did that already by spitzak · · Score: 1

      The web page does mention QR codes:

      http://www.microsoft.com/tag/content/overview/

      However I think their comparisons are quite bogus.

      The first image shows how using color (actually it probably uses brightness) to store 2 bits per triangle makes the data 4x as dense. Actually the data is 8x as dense in that example, whoever wrote the page is not doing their geometry right.

      However their second example comparing the actual QR code to their code, for some reason (probably honesty) prints the QR code so small that each Microsoft triangle is approximately the size of a 3x3 rectangle of QR code. Plus in the above comparison they ignored the white line which is another pixel of height. So a 3x4 rectangle of QR code is the same size as 2 triangles (not 1 triangle as the rectangle contains 1/2 of two other triangles), thus the QR code has 12 bits in the same area as Microsoft has 8 bits. Also the QR code example is 4x the size of any real ones I ever saw printed in a paper.

      The biggest dishonesty is they they are comparing a very long URL with a Microsoft number being looked up on their servers. If the QR code was a TinyURL it would itself be almost as small (it will have the overhead of the TinyURL website name). I do think it is somewhat dishonest to try to claim that their color is what makes it so tiny, when in fact it is that it is storing very little data. Also artificially inflating the size of the QR code is not very honest as well.

      I do suspect that they have made a better form of pattern recognition. The QR code does seem to be a rather amateur attempt and I was surprised when I first saw them that such an obvious pattern was used. I would prefer however if they had worked on storing arbitrary data such as a URL, relying on keeping your information on Microsoft's servers in order to use this does not sound really like something everybody will want.

    41. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      The biggest dishonesty is they they are comparing a very long URL with a Microsoft number being looked up on their servers.

      The URL being looked up is simply http://www.microsoft.com/tag/

      There is probably other data (MIME type, container format) that goes into the QR and Datamatrix codes to tell the scanning app that what they are scanning is an HTTP URL. The QR code for a TinyURL link will probably not be very different.

    42. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1
      Just re-read your post and I think you're making a few mistakes.

      Actually the data is 8x as dense in that example, whoever wrote the page is not doing their geometry right... Plus in the above comparison they ignored the white line which is another pixel of height.

      For the scale of the drawing, the data is merely 4x density in the MS Tag. Each triangle takes half the area of each square at that scale. To give you the final picture - cut off the right half of the right-most triangle and move it across all the way to the left. Fit it into the white space like a puzzle piece. You'll see that 1-byte of data will take 2 squares in the MS Tag, where 1-byte of data took 8 squares in the QR code. 2 squares : 8 squares = 4x data density. btw: it's important to note that the scale used in this drawing is not what's necessarily used in practice. Also, note the slim white line at the top and bottom of the triangles -- they have indeed allowed for the white line.

      However their second example comparing the actual QR code to their code, for some reason (probably honesty) prints the QR code so small that each Microsoft triangle is approximately the size of a 3x3 rectangle of QR code.

      This is realistic. Remember what I said above about the first drawing not being done to scale. I'll come back to it again.

      Also the QR code example is 4x the size of any real ones I ever saw printed in a paper.

      That's okay -- the bigger the better. Makes it easier on the camera. You can scan it better from a distance as well. Imagine how big the code would have to be if you needed to scan it from a Billboard. All you have to do is move your camera back a bit.

      The biggest dishonesty is they they are comparing a very long URL with a Microsoft number being looked up on their servers.

      I think you're mistaking the redirecting service for the data encoded in the tag -- it isn't. The tag just contains an id that's being handed to it. The service sees that and knows that it has to go to http://www.microsoft.com/tag/. For the QR and Datamatrix codes this step isn't needed -- they should be configured to go to http://www.microsoft.com/tag/ directly.

      I do think it is somewhat dishonest to try to claim that their color is what makes it so tiny, when in fact it is that it is storing very little data.

      Actually, they are claiming exactly what you said -- that they have to store very little data in their tag. That's why they're able to make it so small. That's also one of the reasons pattern recognition works so much better for them.

      Also artificially inflating the size of the QR code is not very honest as well.

      Size makes it easier for the camera to get a good image, to resolve the black and white squares easily, etc.

      keeping your information on Microsoft's servers in order to use this does not sound really like something everybody will want.

      Judging from the responses here, clearly it isnt.

    43. Re:Nokia did that already by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      True.

      But so can the URL content. By you, in a server of your choice.

    44. Re:Nokia did that already by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Just re-read your post and I think you're making a few mistakes.

      Actually the data is 8x as dense in that example, whoever wrote the page is not doing their geometry right... Plus in the above comparison they ignored the white line which is another pixel of height.

      For the scale of the drawing, the data is merely 4x density in the MS Tag.

      I did the geometry right, but I was being stupid about the bits. 4 colors is 2 bits, not 4. So the data density (if the sides of the objects are the same size) is 4x. Also the caption never says 4x, it just says "4 symbols", so I did not read it very carefully.

      The space used by the white line in this image is far smaller than the ones in the actual codes. In the graphical image it implies the vertical spacing is equal the the side of a triangle. But their actual examples are 6 triangles wide but only 5 rows high, so the vertical spacing is really 6/5 the size of a triangle.

      Also the QR code example is 4x the size of any real ones I ever saw printed in a paper.

      That's okay -- the bigger the better.

      No, I mean that it has 4x as many squares in it as any actual QR I have seen (I have seen plenty printed in UK newspapers). It also has 6 small targets in it instead of 1 that I have seen in all examples.

      I don't know why they did not take a normal QR and print it a lot larger. What I meant by "honesty" is that the only explanation I can think of is that there is a printing resolution limit (probably due to color printing alignment issues). They don't mention this limit but don't want to lie in their example, so to make the QR bigger they made it have a lot more data than necessary.

      The biggest dishonesty is they they are comparing a very long URL with a Microsoft number being looked up on their servers.

      I think you're mistaking the redirecting service for the data encoded in the tag...

      I don't know what you are talking about, and you seem to be ignoring my TinyURL example. TinyURL is a "redirecting service" that can be used by QR codes. The Microsoft one says "123456" and you store the actual link on Microsoft's servers. A TinyURL QR would say "http://tinyurl.com/123456" and you store the actual link on TinyURL's servers. The TinyURL is 19 bytes larger, but you are not locked into using TinyURL!

      I do think it is somewhat dishonest to try to claim that their color is what makes it so tiny, when in fact it is that it is storing very little data.

      Actually, they are claiming exactly what you said -- that they have to store very little data in their tag. That's why they're able to make it so small. That's also one of the reasons pattern recognition works so much better for them.

      I'm sorry, please point to the text on the page that says the amount of data is smaller. I have just reread it carefully and it NEVER says that. All it talks about is "High Capacity Bar Codes"

    45. Re:Nokia did that already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another key difference - a QR code stores the data in the code itself, limiting what you can do with it. These Tags are just a GUID or something like it. The scanning app on your phone will send that number to a service (MS hosted -- that's the monetization I guess).

      Sounds like MS are the ones who will be limiting what you can do with it, if you ask me.

      Pro-tip: if you need more space for your URL, try tinyurl.

      Another pro-tip: QR does not forbid storing a GUID and doing application-specific stuff with it.

    46. Re:Nokia did that already by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I don't know why they did not take a normal QR and print it a lot larger. What I meant by "honesty" is that the only explanation I can think of is that there is a printing resolution limit (probably due to color printing alignment issues). They don't mention this limit but don't want to lie in their example, so to make the QR bigger they made it have a lot more data than necessary.

      Ok, I understand what you mean about bigger -- but honestly, I've seen lots of QR codes that size -- they're typically the ones that don't scan. Not printing it a lot larger, is sort of exactly the point -- small QR codes are difficult to scan reliably. MS tags do a better job in that area.

      The biggest dishonesty is they they are comparing a very long URL with a Microsoft number being looked up on their servers.

      I think you're mistaking the redirecting service for the data encoded in the tag...

      I don't know what you are talking about, and you seem to be ignoring my TinyURL example. TinyURL is a "redirecting service" that can be used by QR codes. The Microsoft one says "123456" and you store the actual link on Microsoft's servers. A TinyURL QR would say "http://tinyurl.com/123456" and you store the actual link on TinyURL's servers. The TinyURL is 19 bytes larger, but you are not locked into using TinyURL!

      I meant to say that the URL encoded into the tag was merely http://www.microsoft.com/tag/. As you said, the MS tag just stored an ID. The ID was looked up against a webservice, which redirected you to http://www.microsoft.com/tag/ -- I thought that maybe you mistook the URL of the webservice (plus the ID etc.) -- all visible in the browser address bar, as the URL encoded into the tag.

      Having said that, I do agree that the QR code is way more complex than what I'd expect for a URL that size. I didn't mean to ignore your TinyURL example -- but it's not exactly good design to have to rely on TinyURL -- I mean, if you have to do that, why not just do exactly what MS tags does in the first place?

  2. QR code? by MoFoQ · · Score: 5, Informative

    sounds like QR Code which is widely used in Japan (it's what the CueCat couldn't do in the states).

    Microsoft...always trying to re-invent the wheel and try to pass it on as a new invention.

    1. Re:QR code? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 0, Troll

      Microsoft...always trying to re-invent the wheel and try to pass it on as a new invention.

      [troll] A truly American company ![/troll]

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    2. Re:QR code? by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      It's also used here in Sweden by at least one major newspaper.

      So yes, they're catching on a trend here. It can be used to cram more content into a limited space. Good if a company is trying to cut costs by not making thicker newspapers. Annoying if you don't want to context switch from reading a newspaper at your leisure, and having to start browsing on a tiny mobile phone. :-p

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    3. Re:QR code? by JCSoRocks · · Score: 1

      The CueCat was the first thing I thought of as well. The trouble with these technologies is that I've never understood how the usefulness outweighed the inconvenience. The only interesting one I've heard about is for the G1 (android based phone). It lets you compare the price of something in online stores and nearby brick and mortars - pretty nifty.

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    4. Re:QR code? by Smask · · Score: 1

      What you're thinking of is the Swiss Beetagg (hexagonal dots) system. There are a special Beetagg reader that also reads QR code and semacode tags.

    5. Re:QR code? by xaxa · · Score: 1

      I'd like to see them on more advertisements. If I see an advert I'm interested in I often take a photo of the URL with my phone to remind myself. If QR codes were used that would be better.

      But, I see most adverts while I'm on foot or seated: on the train, while walking in the street, on a bus, or an escalator. Generally I have the chance to stop and take a photo. If you only ever drive past advertisements this won't be very useful.

    6. Re:QR code? by atamagabakkaomae · · Score: 1

      Especially when it comes to cellphones a lot of things seem to be adapted from Japan. Such as the navigation capabilities of the iphone (all the mobile mapping stuff has been around for years here) or social networking applications (checking on actvities in your friendship circle, social grouping etc.). One thing that also might be picked up soon is a little 2nd-life clone that runs on my softbank (vodaphone) mobile. So while riding the train I can run around in a 3d environment on my cellie and talk to other people connected to there etc. Anyway I am not sure, but I think it is not overly popular here.

      Regarding the code scanning, I mean it might be a great new high-density code that microsoft is using but in the end all it needs to do is call up a certain webpage in the cellphone browser (maybe with some local info added or so). However considering that the qr codes have been in popular use in Japan for ages this is so not new.

    7. Re:QR code? by tg123 · · Score: 3, Informative
      QR codes are widely used in Japan they are literally on everything -

      Why I think they are so popular is that japanese (kanji/hiragana/katakana ) is hard to type on a mobile phone.

      With QR codes you just take a picture and your phone goes to the website.

      Microsoft Tags don't sound that different except you have to use Microsoft to access the info.

    8. Re:QR code? by ElNotto · · Score: 1

      Yes, I've seen developers for windows mobile applications publishing QR codes with releases of their applications. Supposedly you can use your PC to view the release announcement and take a picture of the code displayed on your PC monitor with your smartphone using a program to read the QR code and it will take you to the download for the program without having to mess with internet browsing on a 2.5" screen. I haven't tried it yet but I've receently installed a QR reader and intend to keep a lookout for them.

    9. Re:QR code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Self-aware troll? This is impossible!

    10. Re:QR code? by roger_pasky · · Score: 1

      It's just the same as QR Code, but a little bit smaller (they claim it at their own description.

      It is no new staff as it was announced two years ago . The current hype is the movement towards mobile scanning via embedded camera and, therefore, going mainstream.

      The main disadventage is the optical range on light reflecting surfaces. Surrounding light colour (even colour temperature) could affect the accuracy. If you have ever yield upon a barcode scanner because of the reading failures, just prepare to get angry far much often.

    11. Re:QR code? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 0, Troll

      Hey, one day I decided to be modded as a troll so I acted like a zealous Apple fanboy. I was modded as "funny"...

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    12. Re:QR code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your spelling checker is making a mockery of you..

    13. Re:QR code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sounds like QR Code ... Microsoft...always trying to re-invent the wheel and try to pass it on as a new invention.

      FTA: If you were to assume Microsoft Tag is just a clone of QR Code, youâ(TM)d be wrong. ... Microsoft Tag is based on a whole new technology called High Capacity Color Barcodes (HCCBs), which was invented in-house by Microsoft Research...Unlike other tag technologies too, the Microsoft Tags donâ(TM)t actually store the information. You see, all it stores is a unique ID which it then sends to Microsoftâ(TM)s servers. This way, you can include much more information, and more variety of information, then if it was just on the tag itself.

    14. Re:QR code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically trolls are self-aware and do it because they enjoy pissing people off.

      Many people who get call trolls aren't; They are just retarded or attention whores.

    15. Re:QR code? by mchakvoort · · Score: 1

      Well, it's not really unlike any other tag technology. For example the Shotcode technology ( http://shotcode.com/ ) has been around for over at least 3 years now, plus I think they've got fancier tags :-).

    16. Re:QR code? by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      People have been storing URL in QR Codes for years. How is this any improvement?

  3. Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Isn't semacode good enough to enter a URL into a mobile phone?

    1. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by aliquis · · Score: 1

      It only seemed to do facebook so, uhm, no :D

      But there may be others which are better, QR code like someone else suggested is actually mentioned in TFA but it stored the information in the code, so it doesn't link you to the information and therefor it doesn't do the same thing as Microsofts one do, although it could obviously store an URL to, it's not just limited to that purpose like Microsofts is.

      I assume there may be others which is more centered around URLs.

      Not a new idea in any case, and the color one looks like shit, even though they can store more bits.

    2. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yeah I think QR code is what I was looking for.

    3. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by tonytnnt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not a new idea in any case, and the color one looks like shit, even though they can store more bits.

      Now that I think about it, wouldn't QR Code have a HUGE advantage in some print advertising because it's black and white vs. color? I mean, I know that Tag appears to fit into a 4 color process, but it just seems like a 1 color process would be more advantageous... or am I completely off base here?

    4. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by tonytnnt · · Score: 1

      Update: Microsoft already tried a QR Code based system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Live_Barcode

    5. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by aliquis · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is that neither of them are worth my or anyone else time if they aren't THE ONE METHOD to use.

      What good is 10 different 2D codes? It's not like people will get lots of readers or be happy trying to photo things just to notice nothing happens all the fucking time.

    6. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is that neither of them are worth my or anyone else time if they aren't THE ONE METHOD to use.

      A lot of bar code readers can recognise and interpret multiple codes. Mow MS will probably try to limit this, but a well recognised barcode is probably quite useful even if it is not the one and only

    7. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      Monochrome works, but pure greyscale seems to cause issues.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    8. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by midnightJackal · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely correct about monochrome QR code being advantageous. QR isn't limited to just black and white, it actually just nheeds to be two distinct colors, where one is much darker than the other.

      A number of fast food joints in Japan print McDonalds-style burger wrappers - single color paper with different colored print. So, for example, at McD's my Big Mac wrapper was able to have a QR code on it at no extra cost to the printing process, other than having to add the tag to the layout.

      If you took a picture with your mobile phone camera, it would direct you to the McDonalds website nutritional information page for the burger that you were eating.

    9. Re:Hey everybody lets to it microsofts way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that I think about it, wouldn't QR Code have a HUGE advantage in some print advertising because it's black and white vs. color?

      The Microsoft Tags apparently work in monochrome too.

      http://www.istartedsomething.com/20090109/hacking-microsoft-tags-hccb-works-monochrome-too/

  4. Applications by James_Duncan8181 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hmmm...adverts/spam would be the main application I'd imagine. Also a way to get someone to a URL that they cannot check before hand as the symbol is only machine readable. This looks like a great way to get people to exploit pages.

    Tempting!

    --
    "To any truly impartial person, it would be obvious that I am right."
    1. Re:Applications by jeffs72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Heh, won't be long before there are shirts with Microsoft Tag for lemonparty.org and 2girls1cup.com Goatsex anyone? Ew.

      --
      This article has recently been linked from Slashdot. Please keep an eye on the page history for errors or vandalism.
    2. Re:Applications by aliquis · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yeah, I agree, Microsoft tags on t-shirts ? EWW.
      2 girls 1 cup = YEAH!

    3. Re:Applications by jeffs72 · · Score: 1

      I dunno, the MS tags at least have color, don't look as weird as the nokia ones.

      --
      This article has recently been linked from Slashdot. Please keep an eye on the page history for errors or vandalism.
    4. Re:Applications by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      Quick, patent a laser pointer that projects the barcode of goatse.cx

  5. Finns did it already by galaxy · · Score: 3, Informative

    As so many digital-age inventions, this has been done in Finland ages ago. :) There's even a company whose business is built around it: http://www.upc.fi/en/upcode/

    --
    As a general tip, it is unwise to strip powered cables using one's teeth.
    1. Re:Finns did it already by sjs132 · · Score: 1

      Shh... I'm buying the stock Now... I'm sure it will be ripe for a microsoft move soon, if they haven't already absorbed it. You know, "Resistance is futile" and all... ;)

      --
      --- Relax, that mass muderer is just trying to reduce our carbon footprint, one fetus at a time...
    2. Re:Finns did it already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take 20 seconds to RTFA. Ponder the differences between the two tags. You'll understand how stupid your comment was.

  6. Not the next PARC...yet by Zubinix · · Score: 1, Funny

    What original ideas do Microsoft Research come up with? My Nokia E71 has a 2D barcode reader so this is merely an incremental improvement on a well known idea. What next, graphic user interfaces?

  7. We've been here before by biscuitlover · · Score: 4, Informative

    QR codes have been doing exactly the same thing for a while now.

    And to be honest, I really can't see either catching on... The general public are constantly getting more familiar with the web, and getting more comfortable with finding their own favourite 'trusted' sources of information. Even if Microsoft does somehow convince enough manufacturers to start adding codes to their packaging, are people really going to jump at the chance to instantly look up a load of information on that particular television/cosmetic/breakfast cereal on some arbitrary MS website? Because that's all this really amounts to... a link. More info here.

    1. Re:We've been here before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Many magazines and newspapers in Japan are festooned with such codes on adverts, or articles, etc. So it can certainly catch on. Japanese phones are pretty good at it, even for very small ones, but for other manufacturers the problem tends to be poor implementation in the phone side making it quicker to type in the damn URL, or requiring a too large an area devoted to the code.

  8. Server management by Sobrique · · Score: 2, Interesting
    We have asset tags on our servers. To this day I think it'd be very handy to have encoded 'asset important information' on a 'tag' style thing.

    I mean, imagine - blip that server in the corner there, and in my hand I now have everything I need to know about it - configuration, downtime constraints, owners, where it's plugged into, etc.

    Also, supermarkets - being able to do 'extended show info' on a product, based on personal preferences. Allergy information is the most useful one, but even things like recipe suggestions (look, yummy strawberries - have you considered how they might go with cream, or dipped in chocolate?) or ... well, just simple things like collating 'standard information' about stuff in your shopping, like storage life and nutritional value and pricing.

    1. Re:Server management by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Can't you do that with a regular bar code and an extensive database? I mean as for your server thing you might as well just have the name printed on it, and you can have written on a sheet of paper what it does. No wait scratch that, it's better to take your cell phone out, open the barcode program, make sure it has the correct lighting and focus to read the barcode and wait till it recognizes what is sees.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    2. Re:Server management by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Would be sweet with wikipedia connection at various locations, museums, .. to. Though one can always search for it oneself to, if one think about it.

    3. Re:Server management by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      Can't you do that with a regular bar code and an extensive database?

      Yes, certainly. At least, provided you've a way to read the normal barcode. Which is kinda the point - Windows Mobile devices aren't quite ubiquitous, but they're a lot more prevalent than barcode reading PDAs.

      I mean as for your server thing you might as well just have the name printed on it, and you can have written on a sheet of paper what it does.

      If you're talking just a few servers, certainly this'll work. I think you're perhaps underestimating just how many 'assets' you get in a large datacentre though. When you start talking about 40,000 pieces of paper with server name, IP address, 'owner' contact information, cabling details, power supply/breaker connectivity, maintenance contract details, service level/outage windows, and all the other things that are useful to have at the finger tips, you start talking about building your own nightmare of maintenance.

    4. Re:Server management by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      Hmm, that's an interesting one. Something as simple as 'this object is in Wikipedia, point phone here to find out about it' has potential. 'specially if e.g. a museum has an extensive database that it's delivering over wi-fi or something, so you can 'make notes' of that thing that really interested you.

    5. Re:Server management by wertarbyte · · Score: 1

      I'd be more interested in having wikipedia entrys tagged with coordinates. Imagine looking at your PDA displaying all interesting wikipedia entries about items in your immediate surroundings.

      --
      Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
    6. Re:Server management by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Ha, yeah, if that's that many servers, you might want to make it electronic hehe. But still it could be done as easily with a mere regular barcode and a database containing all the data, rather than the barcode containing all the data.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    7. Re:Server management by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, better solution I guess, just give me both, and way more entries. HHGTTG FTW

    8. Re:Server management by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Add consumer reviews and all stuff like that to :D

      And please no commercialism, no prices linked, if people want to find prices let them do it themself. But try to keep the service free of commercialism =P

    9. Re:Server management by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      Windows Mobile devices aren't quite ubiquitous, but they're a lot more prevalent than barcode reading PDAs.

      And Microsoft isn't limiting themselves to WinMob. I just grabbed the iPhone version, and both TFA and TFS mention Blackberry, Symbian, and J2ME versions. I'm guessing the J2ME version covers most other smartphones that don't have native apps. Smart of them, WinMob isn't popular enough to drive adaption, but lots of people have some kind of smartphone by now. Since they're giving the clients away for free anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if they opened the client side API for outside developers to make more native versions to.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    10. Re:Server management by Mr.+No+Skills · · Score: 1

      You don't need a "bar code reading PDA", bar codes can be read with a camera just fine. I just aim the bar codes on a book or CD at my web cam and the catalog software reads the code and sends it to Amazon for the detailed information (Delicious Library is the software, if anyone cares).

      So, still not seeing the advantage of this over normal bar codes. I understand color adds some additional "bits" to the info, but bar codes can be printed on any printer and there's a monstrous industry built around small to high cost readers.

      --
      Sleep is for the Weak
  9. Possible applications? by AlterRNow · · Score: 1

    Worryingly..

    1) Player launches game
    2) Computer "Please take a picture of this 'barcode' to start game"
    3) Player does so and gets billed for this instance of playing the game
    4) ???
    5) PROFIT!!

    --
    The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
    1. Re:Possible applications? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that seems really secure, because it's so hard to copy images on paper!

    2. Re:Possible applications? by AlterRNow · · Score: 1

      Could you elaborate? I don't understand why you brought up the "security" of that scenario

      --
      The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
    3. Re:Possible applications? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Because if they are all the same they would be easy to copy? And if they are different it would still be quite easy to take someone else just like with a key or whatever, so not much of an added security measurement.

    4. Re:Possible applications? by AlterRNow · · Score: 1

      Ah, my point was more for the pay-per-play aspect where the game would present you with a barcode which you would take a picture of, be billed ( to your phone bill perhaps ) and then the game is told it can play via internet or perhaps another connection to the phone ( bluetooth etc. ).

      I'm not saying it would be secure, or that it will even happen.. but it is possible and is therefore worrying! I'm sure it would be cracked within a very short amount of time though :)

      Hope that makes more sense

      --
      The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
    5. Re:Possible applications? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sounds like something which would work, though a link to your bank and paying from there or just typing in your Visa CC # sounds like decent alternatives.

      And in the end the user choose if they want to buy a game on those terms or not, I wouldn't.

    6. Re:Possible applications? by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry -- but that's just dumb. Or a silly attempt at fud.

      How is your scenario any different from: 2) Computer "Please call this number to start game". If someone is that stupid they deserve to get swindled.

    7. Re:Possible applications? by AlterRNow · · Score: 1

      I'll agree it's dumb, but we've seen plenty of other dumb things find their way into consumers lives *cough*DRM*cough*

      Apologies if it looked like FUD, wasn't my intention.

      --
      The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
  10. It has potential... by babycakes · · Score: 1

    I can see it having applications particularly in things like magazine adverts etc, where a QR/2D barcode wouldn't fit in aesthetically, but something with jazzy colours etc would do. It does open up the potential problem of bad registration during printing, where the colours may not necessarily line up; not a problem with a black-on-white barcode really. Having tried it, the read speed is quicker than on my Nokia N95 barcode reader, but I guess having said that, there is already an existing standard which works fine with "proper" barcode scanners and not mobile phone ones - why deviate from this, in order to accomplish the same, but with the removal from the barcode of the information required (and place it on a server somewhere else)?

    1. Re:It has potential... by fbjon · · Score: 1

      The built-in reader on the N95 is pretty slow though. This implementation, at least, is about on par or slower that other readers I've tried. It also crashed when I tried the sending function. In any case, I tried the beetagg reader someone suggested in an upward comment, and that one's practically instantaneous.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
  11. japan - already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    black and white, squared boxes. you find them on everything including the paper wrapping your quarterpounder.

  12. Not a chance... by Kindaian · · Score: 1

    Walmart can't convince suppliers to use RFID without resorting to blackmail and MS is trying for world use of a new label just for fun?

    Good luck...

  13. payload-in-code versus payload-on-server by Tikaro · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The thing I like about payload-in-code formats, like QRCode, is that the information is actually out there in the world with you, albeit in a machine-readable format. The URL actually, you know, is sharing your space.

    With a payload-on-server code, the thing in the code isn't meaningful, even in to a machine, unless the WHOLE chain is working -- internet connection, server, the whole nine yards.

    QRcode just seems, I dunno, more "honest."

    1. Re:payload-in-code versus payload-on-server by papasui · · Score: 1

      It's a two-way street in my opinion. Once you commit the QRcode to print it's permanent. Microsoft's approach of essentially using an index/pointer means that the content can evolve over time. For example if you happen to scan a 3 year old QRcode vs a 3 year old Microsoft Tag there is at least a chance that the Tag may still be relevant. That said, both are fking lame to me as a consumer.

    2. Re:payload-in-code versus payload-on-server by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      No, it's not. Microsoft's implementation from a data standpoint is simply inferior.

      There is no conceptual difference between a Microsoft Index and a URL and there is nothing to stop QRcodes from being URLs. The data on the "other end" can either be there or not, modified at any point in time, etc

      Either way doesn't really matter. Either the service provider will update the data to be relevant data or they won't.

      The benefit of QRcodes over the MS implementation is that in addition to encoding a pointer to the information one could choose to encode the actual information in the tag. Yes, this would be static data. But since you have your choice of dynamic and static data I would expect that a static tag only be used in situations where this makes sense.

  14. I would have had the first tag and the first post, by electrogeist · · Score: 1
  15. Microsoft reinvents again by solune · · Score: 5, Funny

    I've always wanted to turn my phone into a cue-cat!(R)

  16. Huh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought Microsoft Tag was what Ballmer called chair-throwing...

  17. Am I really going to be the first to say this? by yttrstein · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    What a damn stupid idea.

    1. Re:Am I really going to be the first to say this? by yttrstein · · Score: 1

      Oh, fuck you.

      Flamebait indeed.

  18. Another wonderful "invention" from Microsoft by Virus1984 · · Score: 1

    So... the brighty "researchers" at Microsoft finally heard of QR Code, maybe suggested that a decoder be implemented in a next release of Windows Mobile, and had to reinvent the wheel so it would be "new stuff" ? That said, it *is* different from QR Code, a QR Code can story any arbitrary data, this variant seem to resolve around URLs to web services that do an awful lot of stuff without the user's explicit consent (other than scanning the code). Damn. Having seen the horrors of ActiveX "automations", it sure don't want this in cellphones! Maybe I sound like an party-pooper, but wouldn't color complicate the whole stuff? I mean, a QR code or a standard barcode can be printed in a black-and-white newspaper page (which are not *that* uncommon), this Microsoft Tag could not.

    --
    Don't forget to think different.
  19. 64-bit proprietary hashing? by infofarmer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is it just me, or do MS tags look like 50 positions of 4 colors, i.e. 100 bits, which, minus error correction, probably boils down to 64-80. It's obvious you need a server-based resolver to convert these few bytes into an URL. Now guess who manages the server and how much do they want to charge for each entry.

    1. Re:64-bit proprietary hashing? by hattig · · Score: 1

      The obvious solution is that some of the bits should resolve to a "code resolution service provider", so that there could be several databases providing codes. Instead Microsoft will be able to charge $100 or so for a person to enter a code into the database for their advertising campaign.

      I think it's easier just to put a web address, I'm really not going to take photos of adverts to see a website, and the same goes for news articles and other signage and information. Maybe if it was seamless on the mobile device, without even needing to run this application... so really this isn't going to affect my life, so why should I care!

      Using the CMYK colours is sensible, as long as the colours are aligned well when printed which should be the case. The reason the code is smaller is because there is no data payload apart from the ID, so they achieve different purposes.

    2. Re:64-bit proprietary hashing? by psychofox · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yup, seems like a garbage idea to me.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_Code

      Can hold a a couple of kilobytes and have been around for over a decade and are in use everywhere in Japan.

      You can go to a website and create one which contains anything you like, i.e your business card details, in a standard format, a url, telephone number, etc.

  20. Reinventing the wheel is profitable by xiando · · Score: 3, Insightful

    CueCat, QT, it's just a fancy barcode. Except that Microsoft can charge everyone who uses or implements their version of the barcode. Reinventing the wheel IS profitable. This is ODF vs OOXML all over again except that this time there is no open format available as an alternative. Hackers should get right on making an open fancy-barcode standard, and where oh where is RMS on this issue?

    1. Re:Reinventing the wheel is profitable by addie+macgruer · · Score: 1

      The open format would be `plain text', which you enter into the address bar of your browser or commit to memory for later. The sheer inconvenience of having to use a cuecat, rather than type eg. pepsi.com, was one of the highlighted factors in its failure, as I recall.

  21. Big difference by spectrokid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    QR code has the data embedded in the tag. This thing seems to be just a pointer to a record in a MS database. So MS gets a copy of all your data, AND you need to be online to read it. Thanks but no thanks.

    --

    10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then

    1. Re:Big difference by dhavleak · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, there's obviously tradeoffs associated:

      A QR code stores the data in the tag itself so (AFAIK) it can have variable size. It's black and white and the shapes are smaller. So the pattern recognition can be harder, might not work well with low resolution cameras, and there are practical limits on how much information you can encode into the tag.

      Microsoft tag's strength is pattern recognition. It looks to me like the tag has been designed with low-res cameras, variable distances and light conditions in mind. Scanning has been working for me from all kinds of distances and screen angles, and it's been super-quick.

      To achieve this it looks like MS had to make the tag data a fixed length and use the data essentially as an index number. Sure, you gotta go through their service, but well, they're providing a service (duh).. They've announced that the tag scanning app, and the act of scanning a tag will always be free services. Creating a tag is free right now while the service is in beta, but I'm sure they'll start charging a fee at some point. If/when that happens, an entity interested in creating a tag simply needs to weigh the cost/benefit and decide if it's worth it.

      About MS having your data -- well, for example if you're in an airport and you see a tag that says "scan here for arrival/departure info" -- you scan it, it takes you to a page with flight info. How's that different from say, doing a search query and reaching the same website? Ultimately, the person/entity creating the tag will link the data (URL, vCard, whatever) to it. If they're not comfortable with this data residing on an MS server, why would they create the tag in the first place? You, as the consumer, the person scanning the tag, aren't uploading your data on MS's server.

    2. Re:Big difference by ChienAndalu · · Score: 1

      What's stopping me to encode an url as a QR Code?

    3. Re:Big difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      QR code is almost always an encoded URL which is opened by the browser.

    4. Re:Big difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's stopping me to encode an url as a QR Code?

      Nothing at all, in fact it's common. The complaint is that apparently the MS version doesn't encode even a URL - it encodes a key of a query in MS database. Much less data, which makes the code easier to scan, but it means relying on their database, for both reading and creating codes. It's a bit like forcing the URL to be a tinyurl.com one.
      For that matter, datamatrices and QR codes may contain other text than URLs, allowing fully offline (or independent) use.

    5. Re:Big difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing.

    6. Re:Big difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see how having multiple colors might make pattern recognition easier compared to binary black/white tags. This approach just introduces a bunch of new sources of errors: e.g. does it work in low-lit rooms, where most color might seem almost black, and does it work when the light source is slightly colored (sunset, cheap LED lighs, low-powered light bulbs, colored lights in night clubs...)?

    7. Re:Big difference by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I don't completely understand it, but apparently it does help. From what I understand, the data is actually encoded into the brightness (4 levels) rather than the color -- but the color helps the camera to calibrate itself to get a better image or something like that.

    8. Re:Big difference by Seth+Kriticos · · Score: 1

      I actually like the QR code implementation better. You can encode arbitrary url's into it. The Microsoft version introduces a single point of failure model, so even if I would entrust them with my quires, if the server goes down the entire infrastructure for this system is owned. No, thanks!

    9. Re:Big difference by fast+turtle · · Score: 1

      if this tag is that readable, then it has uses in automated wharehouses/product tracking/UPS-FedEx-Postal systems and a whole rash of others that don't depend on the MS system to be usable. Hell use em on ID badges with scanners at reasonable height for ACS setups. Even makes sense for Mandated ID cards (government issued)

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
    10. Re:Big difference by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      You can fit a surprising amount in a QR Code. But even suppose you wanted to put something in there that wouldn't fit - you still have the option of doing the same as MS is doing. Just encode a URL that then directs the user to the actual data. IMHO, it's much better to have the option to encode the data directly when feasible, and use the URL as a fallback for when it's not, than to force everyone through MS's servers.

      What happens if MS starts charging for the service (either barcode reading or barcode generation - since generation apparently requires use of MS's database and servers), or starts dropping old data (or discontinues the service altogether)? Or if their servers go down? And then you have the people worried about the privacy implications. None of these are problems if the data is encoded in the barcode itself.

    11. Re:Big difference by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      QRcode doesn't vary in size depending on the data length, it varies in how big the squares are. The bigger the squares, obviously, the easier it is for a camera to recognize them at a distance. If you want something like Tag in a QRcode, you could just use tinyurl.com - these URLs encode to quite robust QRcodes: example. By the way, Microsoft may have developer tools, but if all you want to do is encode a URL Google provides an easy way too. Just stick the URL onto the end of this:

      http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=qr&chs=350x350&chl=http://whatever.com

      This is ideal for turning into a bookmarklet, which is what I did, so now if I want to get a web page from my laptop onto my (Android) phone, I just hit ctrl-l to go to the address bar, add the word "qrcode" to the front and hit enter. Then I start the barcode scanner app and point it at my screen. It usually takes about half a second to scan.

  22. Problem with these tags by CBravo · · Score: 1

    is that they are so g****** ugly to look at. Especially on a large sign.

    --
    nosig today
  23. So it's a... by peculium.infirmus · · Score: 1

    very colorful matrix id ? If you have worked in any kind of manufacturing enviroment, these have been around for a while now. Seems Microsoft have just made it look more trendy ?

  24. QR codes are ubiquitous in Japan by achurch · · Score: 1

    And to be honest, I really can't see either catching on...

    I don't know about "catching on" in the sense of people actually using them (I don't), but they're incredibly common in Japan, and have been for the last few years. Advertisements have them, magazines have them, McDonald's hamburger wrappers have them... Granted, it could all be a mass delusion of marketroids, but I doubt so many companies would go to the effort of putting the codes on--and continuing to put them on year after year--unless there was feedback saying it was effective.

    1. Re:QR codes are ubiquitous in Japan by plover · · Score: 1

      And to be honest, I really can't see either catching on...

      Granted, it could all be a mass delusion of marketroids, but I doubt so many companies would go to the effort of putting the codes on--and continuing to put them on year after year--unless there was feedback saying it was effective.

      This could also just be the tail still wagging the dog. The barcode providers are trying desperately to capitalize on these things, and might be continually pushing them on various producers with words like "there's been a big uptick on direct-to-consumer barcodes in Finland, you don't want to miss this opportunity!" There could also be some co-branding going on -- we'll market you as an trend-setting adopter if you print these for free. That could be especially attractive when the codes cost nothing to attach to their packaging or marketing literature.

      --
      John
    2. Re:QR codes are ubiquitous in Japan by mad_robot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Tail wagging the dog? Very unlikely.

      QR code is an open standard. They can be used freely, in other words.

      The popularity of QR codes in Japan is at least partly due to their ability to store Japanese text which is very difficult to type in on mobile handsets.

      --
      U1NCaVpYUWdlVzkxSUhkcGMyZ2dlVzkx SUdoaFpHNG5kQ0JpYjNSb1pYSmxaQT09
  25. It's just another way to send you to to msn.com by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    Barf.

    --
    No sig today...
  26. Free 2D barcodes by tepples · · Score: 1

    This is ODF vs OOXML all over again except that this time there is no open format available as an alternative.

    There are plenty of Free two-dimensional barcodes. Data Matrix is old enough that its patent has expired, and QR Code, MaxiCode, and Aztec Code are permissively licensed. But the advantage of Microsoft's code, which uses color to improve density and looks up data on a server, is that it can be decoded more reliably even from a cheap cell phone camera.

    1. Re:Free 2D barcodes by silanea · · Score: 1

      [...] But the advantage of Microsoft's code, which uses color to improve density and looks up data on a server, is that it can be decoded more reliably even from a cheap cell phone camera.

      Using colour is not necessarily a good idea. Differentiating black forms from white background is simple and reliable enough; but colour recognition is unreliable. There are quite a few variables that cannot be readily controlled or balanced, eg. lighting, the camera's colour settings, bad contrast.

      And looking up data on a server isn't an advantage in your context, either: Either a code can be decoded reliably and easily on a low-spec phone or it can't. Whether the decoded data is actual content or only a reference to data on a foreign location does not make a difference.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    2. Re:Free 2D barcodes by tepples · · Score: 1

      Using colour is not necessarily a good idea. Differentiating black forms from white background is simple and reliable enough

      Dedicated dot code scanners have a gray sensor. But end users are more likely to already own a color camera built into a mobile phone than a dedicated dot code scanner. Color cameras have a color filter array over their sensor, and the camera's driver tries to reconstruct a full-color image from the filtered sensor readings. A lower-density code that includes color is more likely to survive the color filter array intact than a higher-density monochrome code. Microsoft's triangle code uses cyan, magenta, yellow, and black as the code units, and distinguishing those doesn't depend too much on lighting.

      And looking up data on a server isn't an advantage in your context, either: Either a code can be decoded reliably and easily on a low-spec phone or it can't. Whether the decoded data is actual content or only a reference to data on a foreign location does not make a difference.

      But scans on a single low-spec phone can have lower SNR when done quickly than when done carefully. Consider this syllogism:

      1. Codes that contain only a reference tend to contain far less data than codes that contain literal data.
      2. Codes that contain less data can be "decoded reliably and easily" from a lower-resolution, lower-SNR scan than codes that contain more data.
      3. Therefore, codes that contain only a reference can be decoded more reliably at a given scan quality than one containing a significant amount of data.

      Do you disagree with premise 1, premise 2, or the step from 1 and 2 to conclusion 3?

    3. Re:Free 2D barcodes by silanea · · Score: 1

      [...] A lower-density code that includes color is more likely to survive the color filter array intact than a higher-density monochrome code. Microsoft's triangle code uses cyan, magenta, yellow, and black as the code units, and distinguishing those doesn't depend too much on lighting. [...]

      Tell that to the camera in my Nokia E65. Depending on the type of light source some colours can be completely off. Not just a shade or two, but they really turn into a different colour, eg. blue tends to become bright green under halide lamps at night if the object I want to photograph only receives indirect lighting, and anything white or greyish tends to turn bright red-orange.

      In theory you are right, but judging from my experience with cameras in consumer-grade mobiles I see quite a potential for headache.

      Do you disagree with premise 1, premise 2, or the step from 1 and 2 to conclusion 3?

      Point taken. I had primarily very small sets of data in mind (we use DataMatrix to identify shipping batches where the batch identification is a 10 digit ID).

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    4. Re:Free 2D barcodes by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      Tell that to the camera in my Nokia E65. Depending on the type of light source some colours can be completely off. Not just a shade or two, but they really turn into a different colour, eg. blue tends to become bright green under halide lamps at night if the object I want to photograph only receives indirect lighting, and anything white or greyish tends to turn bright red-orange.

      The question then turns to:

      Which of these colour changes turn into *really* enough of a different colour to be wrongly encoded? Let's take a look at your list:

      * blue->green

      Could the "green" be mistaken for black, magenta or yellow? Not very likely

      * white->orange

      This might screw up if it gets encoded as yellow, especially if you have white triangles. But this code doesn't have any white triangles. Oh well.

      This exercise gets back to the reason they chose CMYK. The colour separations are just so far apart that regardless of most colour transform based on lighting conditions or performed by the majority of crappy sensors it's still good enough to tell a blue triangle from a yellow one from a magenta one from a black one most of the time.

  27. Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OK, where's the submarine patent?

    Oh, they're playing silly games even before we get that far...

    Let's see... the second link has a nice deceptive picture of the two technologies not to scale, but printed against each other so it looks like the color coded one is smaller. Then there's an actual scale comparison, but the Microsoft one is only an encoded link, so it contains less data than the tags it's compared with. There's no reason you can't swipe your iPhone over a UPC and look it up online (I've done that with my cue-cat).

    And of course "A nice side-effect of this is also the ability for publishers to gather reporting data on how many times it was seen." Nice. Right. Plus, Microsoft gets that data as well. And of course it's got all the downsides of any cloud technology... if the server's down or you're not online you're stuck.

    1. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      Have you ever found a phone application which can read UPC barcodes?

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    2. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by argent · · Score: 1

      Have you ever found a phone application which can read UPC barcodes?

      I haven't looked, I don't have a smartphone. People do this routinely in Japan with 2d barcodes on cellphones. In the US there's plenty of apps that read all kinds of barcodes for phones, including a couple that use standard 2d barcodes to do the same thing Microsoft's doing here, and Google has one that doesn't require a round trip to a central server (Google doing LESS data mining than Microsoft?). There's certainly no technical issue reading UPC codes with a camera, Delicious Library does it.

      I suspect that people getting into the UPC space are gunshy of the CueCat effect.

    3. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by fbjon · · Score: 1

      At least two on Symbian: UpCode and ZebraScan. UpCode reads QR, DataMatrix and UPC codes, but you have to toggle between 2D/1D modes.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    4. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Then there's an actual scale comparison, but the Microsoft one is only an encoded link, so it contains less data than the tags it's compared with.

      That's kind of the point though. For tags/barcodes/whatever to be useful, you gotta be able to read the barcode in all kinds of unfavorable conditions. Low-res cellphone cameras, from a moving vehicle pointing at a billboard, varying light conditions, distances, and angles. The whole idea is to not encode reams of data, and to optimize the the tag as best possible for the pattern recognition to succeed. And they nailed this part -- I suggest giving it a try if you have a phone that will work.

      There's no reason you can't swipe your iPhone over a UPC and look it up online (I've done that with my cue-cat).

      UPCs don't store a phone numbers, vCards, URLs, or messages.

      A nice side-effect of this is also the ability for publishers to gather reporting data on how many times it was seen." Nice. Right. Plus, Microsoft gets that data as well.

      Kinda like search ads served by google, gmail, hulu, yahoo, live search etc.?

      if the server's down or you're not online you're stuck.

      Kinda like webmail? How were you planning to look up that UPC if you weren't online btw?

    5. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "if you're online" is a valid concern. "If the server's down" is the whole point of a distributed cloud. Fault tolerance is part of the design.

    6. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by argent · · Score: 1

      Low-res cellphone cameras, from a moving vehicle pointing at a billboard,

      I'll give up that use case in exchange for not having drivers trying to snapshot billboards running into me.

      UPCs don't store a phone numbers, vCards, URLs, or messages.

      That was a side comment, there's plenty of other technologies already in widespread use.

      Kinda like search ads served by google [...]

      And yet Google's own version of this doesn't include that extra data-mining step.

      How were you planning to look up that UPC if you weren't online btw?

      I don't need to get to Microsoft to call a phone number encoded in a 2d barcode. I don't need Microsoft to be accessible to use someone else's site. And don't tell me "Microsoft won't be down" for something that's peripheral to their business after last Friday's debacle.

    7. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I'll give up that use case in exchange for not having drivers trying to snapshot billboards running into me.

      Cars have passengers too. People go from A to B on foot. You get the larger point, right?

      That was a side comment, there's plenty of other technologies already in widespread use.

      None of them nail pattern recognition under adverse conditions. Microsoft Tag does a stellar job there.

      And yet Google's own version of this doesn't include that extra data-mining step.

      1. Yes it does. It's called AdSense.
      2. You assumed the data mining step. Don't take your assumption as a truism.
      3. Data mining is not synonymous with privacy violation. "3 million new yorkers viewed your ad" is not the same as "IP address x.y.z.w viewed your ad"
      4. This will only lead to an unrelated tangent. I'll just remind you that all the same privacy concerns that apply to any online service you use, be it webmail, search, social networking, video streaming, whatever. Your footprint on this very site is larger than anything you would ever leave on MS's tagging service in a lifetime of use.

      I don't need to get to Microsoft to call a phone number encoded in a 2d barcode.

      Don't use the app -- nobody is forcing you. Why did you even bother reading this thread if you were so disinclined?

      I don't need Microsoft to be accessible to use someone else's site.

      Don't use the app -- nobody is forcing you. Why did you even bother reading this thread if you were so disinclined?

      And don't tell me "Microsoft won't be down" for something that's peripheral to their business after last Friday's debacle.

      Don't tell me what not to tell you. Uptime of MS's service isn't really a concern. Do you realize you're comparing several hundred thousands (if not millions) of people simultaneously attempting to get a multi GB download -- you're comparing that to people sending around 15 bytes of data to a web service and fetching mostly URLs and phone numbers back? Look -- your mind was made up before you even read anything -- you were never going to give this app a fair shake -- but this is getting pretty desperate on your part.

    8. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

      3. Data mining is not synonymous with privacy violation. "3 million new yorkers viewed your ad" is not the same as "IP address x.y.z.w viewed your ad"

      And honestly how useful would even the IP address be in finding out personal data? My cell phone changes IPs dozens of times a day, Wifi hotspots, moving across tower boundaries... Even with an IP address they know nothing about me personally. My iPhone asked for permission to give the app my location when I tired it out, so IF I give it permission to, it knows where I was when I scanned the code, but nothing else about me. All MS is collecting is aggregate data. Useful to marketers, no harm to people.

      --
      I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
    9. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Precisely!!

    10. Re:Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look... by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      Most phones can't read traditional 1D bar codes, their cameras aren't up to it. The G1 can, but I'm not sure how useful it is unless you're a super keen comparison shopper (seems to be the only application for the ability so far).

  28. Get the Zombie crew together by PinchDuck · · Score: 1

    We have to find Hollerith's grave and shove a stake through his heart.

  29. Its Barcode Battler but without the fun. by mrraz · · Score: 1

    Remember http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcode_Battler Doubt the microsoft thing will be as good. I would prefer a good hit score over a load of rubbish reviews and promotions anyway.

    1. Re:Its Barcode Battler but without the fun. by rixster_uk · · Score: 1

      However... barcode beasties is... (disclaimer: I'm the author).

  30. The market needs a solid industrial standard. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I for one thinks that it is great that Microsoft have found an interest in the meta-tag area of business. Don't get me wrong I'm not a particular Mirosoft fan, but there is one thing that they do really well, assimilate technology and push it onto the market. Not always in the best possible way. With all the different types of tags I have to have three or four different J2ME applications installed in my phone in order to utilize them all, not good.
    However, I'm not conviced that the colorcoding is the way to go, I mean the printed media is still mostly monochrome. In the near future we'll probably see more active e-paper, color is a problem there.

  31. Already here in Japan, and been for some time by gnieboer · · Score: 1

    This is common practice in Japan. Use the mega-pixel camera on a 2-D square barcode, and away you go!
    The interesting thing is that you don't actually have to be close to use it.
    While it's used for coupons, etc, (McDonald's wrappers all have these barcodes on it), I've also seen it on retail store outdoor signs, large enough to be scanned from the street as you stop at a stoplight. I haven't personally scanned one to see what happens, but I was surprised to see it.
    Also, people exchange contact details via barcode. I.E. print your barcode data on your conference nametag.

    Essentially it's a hyperlink you can 'click on' in the real world with your phone... 'scan me for more information', and the phone gets the code and then gets additional data from the internet. So yes, it certainly has plenty of application, though Microsoft certainly can't take the credit...

  32. I'm almost impressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just tried it on my HTC Diamond which doesn't exactly have the worlds best camera using it on their test site on my 12" 1280*800 notebook screen and it was super responsive. It accepted blurry, angled pictures where you couldn't really make out the triangles.

    Too bad it starts the shitty mobile IE browser though. In fact I just changed my mind, this thing is horrible, anything that increases mobile IE usage on the web must be evil and destroyed.

    1. Re:I'm almost impressed by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Isn't Opera Mobile configured to be the default browser on the HTC Diamond? Let me know what version of Opera Mobile you're running and I can give you instructions to set it as default. Or you can do a search. I feel your pain dude (or at least I used to until I set Opera as the default)..

  33. It's beautiful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Such great memories. Though, sadly, a look at the GNAA Corporate Homepage would suggest that they've either gone completely tits-up or just stopped making press releases.

  34. Re:wtf????? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What... the... FUCK was that? I know this place gets a lot of trolls but honestly what the fuck was that? I think my head is about to explode.

  35. Tin foil hat for your phone? by OutOfMyTree · · Score: 1

    Yet another way for Microsoft to track what you are doing -- because of course the queries go to their database on their servers with their monitoring.

    Reportedly this was one of the reasons for the CueCat's failure, although there were ways you could supposedly anonymize them. Anonymize your phone?

    I think QR codes do not funnel through a single provider, although I guess one provider may dominate in certain segments of the market.

  36. Tested it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just tested it against the samples.

    The microsoft tag, the phone read at 4' away from the screen, requiring only 1/8th of the screen area. The nokia barcode reader required the neighbouring codes to be at almost the full width of the screen (and that, the first one, the QR code I had to hold the phone upside down for it to get)

    So maybe microsoft is onto something. However I do see a larger downside, if I wanted to stick one of these in images so people know the site where the image came from. If it gets printed out in black and white, it won't work. Maybe if microsoft offers a sticker printer for it. :p

    1. Re:Tested it by Kegetys · · Score: 1

      > The nokia barcode reader required the neighbouring codes to be at almost the full width of the screen

      Instead of the Nokia reader, try Kaywa reader: http://reader.kaywa.com/ For what I have tested it is very fast(pretty much instant) and works from rather big angles as well.

      The fact that the microsoft tag is in color does seem to limit its use to color print only. Also I wonder how well it works if the colors are not perfectly aligned as is often possible for example in newspaper print.

    2. Re:Tested it by achurch · · Score: 1

      The fact that the microsoft tag is in color does seem to limit its use to color print only. Also I wonder how well it works if the colors are not perfectly aligned as is often possible for example in newspaper print.

      That could be why they chose triangles: so no matter which way the colors are misaligned, they have a good chance of figuring out what the original code is. With squares, for example, if the misalignment is exactly along one axis you could end up with twice as many half-width rectangles. Newspapers and the like are probably also why they chose cyan, magenta, and yellow (the primary colors of printing).

  37. Re:wtf????? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "You must be new here." The GNAA was perhaps the single most significant staple of the flourishing Slashdot troll culture until about a year ago when they seemed to have disappeared from the face of the Internet.

  38. How does that work? by internerdj · · Score: 1

    My phone camera can't even make out a human face much less an intricate pattern of colors and shapes.

    1. Re:How does that work? by faedle · · Score: 1

      What's interesting is that Microsoft Tag seems to work even if the camera image is blurry and out of focus. I suspect the shape is irrelevant: the color and position is all that matters.

    2. Re:How does that work? by internerdj · · Score: 1

      Sounds infinitely more useful if they could make the leap to making it fix pictures made by crappy cameras than using it to sell useless crap. Oh wait. This isn't about use it is about profit. Sorry, I slipped into thinking like a person rather than a mindless consumer there for a moment.

  39. Old tech, previous art by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

    I remember a technology from a long time ago (just when webcams were coming out and ISDN was the shizzle) that allowed you to hold up a specially-designed advertisement in a magazine to your webcam, and it would pull out the secrets bits and send your browser to the website. No 2D barcodes, just steganographic data in the picture.

    Any one else remember this?

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  40. http://qrenco.de by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MS Tag is just a pointer to a record on MS servers. Bogus. I prefer simple QR codes. http://qrenco.de

  41. Serves no use; do not use. QR remain best choice. by kobotronic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Visually I think the garish colors of these microsoft codes are going to be hard to incorporate in many graphics designs. QR codes may look busy but given their longtime adoption in Japan they have become iconic and accepted in many contexts. At least QR codes are monochrome - goes with pretty near everything.

    It is true that huge binary QR payloads makes for big tags, but that's also a rare application. QR codes are more often used for simply encoding URLs and email addresses, which is fine - achieves what these microsoft tags do, in roughly the same space, while remaining independent on any sole service provider acting as gate keeper for delivering the rereferenced payload, and the tag can be printed in monochrome on darn near everything.

    When QR encoded URLs reference server-hosted payloads, the user has the power to choose how and on which terms the client technology parses and retrieves the referenced payload. The QR parser can for example decode a human-readable URL which can be manually transcribed to any web browser.

    Aside from these observations, I think Microsoft tags would be almost acceptable if part of the encoded tag data was a URL for the payload decoding service, so as to permit non-microsoft entities to occupy the gatekeeper position. But overall, the net impression is that the Microsoft Tag is too proprietary, not robust enough, and of too little use to be considered a reasonable alternative to QR codes or other forms of payload-in-the-code tags.

  42. Denso-Wave (successfully) did that already by dmizer · · Score: 3, Informative

    QR Codes are used extensively here in Japan, and have been for many years. I also have no trouble at all reading them. Takes less than a second, and I don't need internet access to read them. I've also been amazed at the kind of data: coupons, ads, Business card, small maps, flight information, restaurant food nutritional information, and that's just scratching the surface of what they're used for here.

    Frankly, the thing I see killing this one that it relies on a central server. Man-in-the-middle anyone?

  43. Oh, god, it's the CueCat all over again! by macraig · · Score: 1

    When will they learn...?

    The legacy of the CueCat is that one sits in a drawer and another on my desk, hacked into a basic barcode reader with an on-off switch, to be used once in a great while for scanning "open source" UPCs into Google. That's not at all what they had in mind, and a whole lot less commercial.

    Microsoft wants to reinvent this square wheel? I'm disappointed there won't be any free goodies to hack this time....

  44. Semacode, anyone? by jacksinn · · Score: 1

    Perhaps Semacode wasn't the first people to do this (and provide a toolkit) but I remember having a conversation with friends nearly 2 years ago about this technology and the copyright on the Semacode site is from 2002. I guess at least there's a major backer in the technology but if I know Microsoft, they'll likely patent their encoding and force it on the world as the standard.

    --
    Life==Jeopardy. All the answers are right in front us - the hard part is coming up with the correct question.
  45. Not all smartphones. by faedle · · Score: 1

    Go figure. No Android support.

    1. Re:Not all smartphones. by dhavleak · · Score: 1
  46. Color or BW by codepunk · · Score: 1

    I would lean heavily towards a BW solution, no change out of my 100's of label printers to implement such a solution.

    --


    Got Code?
  47. What applications do you see for such technology? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trojans, Viruses and more SPAM of course.

  48. Colored triangles arn't the best solution by S3D · · Score: 1

    I have a experience in cell phone marker tracking and IMO colored triangles are not the best solution. Colors are susceptible to lighting condition. This approach may have problem in poor lighting, where camera will have trouble to distinguish yellow from red and green from blue. I've tried colored markers and in my experience pure black and white work best. Also detection of rectangles is more reliable than detection of triangles/parallelograms under perspective transform. False positive for triangles also more likely.

  49. It doesn't support LG by Satanboy · · Score: 1

    I have a LG Voyager, it is not supported.

    So, if you have an LG phone plan on it not working. . .

    I'm not sure if you could just install the java compatible one or not, but yeah, you'd think they'd support voyagers, they are rather popular phones.

  50. Funny you should ask... by __aaitqo8496 · · Score: 1

    ...because I outlined potential uses 5 days earlier.

    Probably my favorite idea is a type of scavenger hunt with clues that are decoded from Free Text tags posted around the city. Find a tag, decode the clue, leading you to the next tag, etc.

    The other great use would be integration of a tag into your address book, so that if you want to transfer your contact info, just let someone snap your vCard tag off your phone screen.

    1. Re:Funny you should ask... by kobotronic · · Score: 1

      With Bluetooth or IrDA, you can transfer a vcard record directly from device to device, requiring no active internet connection, and you've been able to do this for the past umpteen years.

      With QR codes, you can snap a vcard off someone else's screen (or business card, or poor photocopy or fax of same) and add it to your address book, requiring no active internet connection, and without the transaction being recorded anywhere outside your adddress book.

      With Microsoft tag, a person can, using an internet connection and specially licensed software, rent a tag code in the microsoft namespace, and upload their vcard for hosting with microsoft, or a microsoft affiliated service partner on commercial terms designed to maximize the data re-sale worth in correlation with aggregate usage tracking statistics. You can then snap a photo of the presented tag and have your individualized tag parsing software connect to the microsoft service (using an active internet connection) and retrieve the tag referenced vcard from the hosting service, which along with Microsoft registers the marketable fact of the address book connection between you and the other person.

  51. News Flash - Microsoft Denies PORN Affiliation by rcpitt · · Score: 1

    January 13, 2010 - Redmond WA After receiving thousands of calls from irate vacationers, Microsoft today issued a warning that taking pictures at your favorite tourist spot should be done with care to ensure that no Microsoft Tag is in frame as there are spammers "out there" littering the visual landscape with tags that point to porn and hate sites.

    --
    Been there, done that, paid for the T-shirt
    and didn't get it
    1. Re:News Flash - Microsoft Denies PORN Affiliation by kobotronic · · Score: 1
      Cute example, but your scenario would in fact not be a problem. Since these dumb microsoft tag things are simply GUIDs indexing resources in a Microsoft managed namespace, Microsoft has the power to change or delete their corresponding payloads at any time.

      There's bound to be all kinds of interesting fail situations on a monopolistic parsing service: SERVER ERROR: Access denied for client (service busy) SERVER ERROR: Access denied for client (anonymous access prohibited) SERVER ERROR: Access denied for client (invalid or expired client certificate) SERVER ERROR: Access denied for client (for reasons that shall remain forever unknown to you, we've decided not to let your client software query our service to retrieve tag payloads) SERVER ERROR: Tag code returned no payload (tag expired) SERVER ERROR: Tag code returned no payload (tag payload deleted for TOS violation) SERVER ERROR: Tag code returned no payload (tag provider account suspended) SERVER ERROR: Tag code returned no payload (tag payload not available in your country or region) SERVER ERROR: Tag code returned no payload (tag payload not available to individuals in your worthless demographic) etc, etc

  52. Re:Microsoft is Harvesting Data by Migraineman · · Score: 1
    Yep, they're harvesting the data. From the ToS on the Microsoft website:

    REPORTS

    Microsoft will provide you with online reporting information about use of the Tags affiliated with Your Materials. You may create reports based on the scanning and use of your Tags by end users (âoeReportsâ), provided that any copies or dissemination of the information in such reports will contain an attribution to âoeInformation Provided by Microsoft® Tagâ. Microsoft may provide aggregated data in the Reports available in summary analytics to third parties, without identifying you.

    No thanks. I can print an URL on my event poster, and my customers can type that URL into their web-enabled phones. Microsoft's "help" is not necessary, nor desired.

  53. Embrase, Extend, Lock-in and Profit by mungewell · · Score: 1

    This is not about the technology (the construction of the bar code or the reader software), this is about lock in and a future profit stream for the Microsoft.

    From the FAQ:
    --
    Publisher Use
    Q. What does it cost for publishers or businesses to take advantage of the Microsoft Tag solution?
    During the beta period, commercial use of Microsoft Tag, including generating, using, and receiving consumer analytics data will be provided at no cost.
    --

    The whole point of the 'special' barcode is that it is a 'protected' design and can only be used with permission. There is no such a restriction on Q-Codes or DataMatrix.

    Also with URLS/content stored within the barcode you don't rely on a middleman to provide the dereferencing service (although you can if you so desire - think minimal URL with reference number).

    BTW this format was first used on GameDVDs:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6570871.stm
    http://www.techshout.com/general/2007/16/microsofts-high-capacity-multicolor-bar-code-licensed-by-isan-to-lend-a-splash-of-color/

    Mungewell.

  54. Parking Meters, Subway Tickets by EgoWumpus · · Score: 1

    I've long thought that being able to scan an image with my iPhone that lets me 'pay for parking' or get on a subway would be a really great use for the technology.

    --

    [Ego]out

  55. Itâ(TM)s a shortcut to fun! by starkadder · · Score: 0

    Says the web page to Get Started: "Its a shortcut to fun!"
    Wheeeee! I can read MORE ads!

  56. Real World Hyperlinks by EgoWumpus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    On the other hand, if I go to Delta's website to see my flight information, only Delta really knows I did so - and may not know it's me specifically if I'm not required to log in. In this case, though, Microsoft (or other service provider) knows I 'went to Delta's website' - or whatever else the tag-shortcut did for me.

    On the whole, I think that the ability to have real-world hyperlinks (because, face it, that's what they are) is really valuable. On the other hand, I don't think that it needs to be a monetized service. I can't think of a reason that a protocol couldn't be developed that scanning apps would implement; for that matter, given text recognition software, how hard is it to program a phone to read in a url and tell it's onboard browser to go to it? Or any of the other diverse possible applications?

    Essentially; what is Microsoft's role in this? Is it a critical role (you *need* the centralized server for some reason), or are they creating a false market segment?

    --

    [Ego]out

    1. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if I go to Delta's website to see my flight information, only Delta really knows I did so

      Actually your gateway and every hop along the way knows you were on Delta's site. If your traffic wasn't SSL-encrypted, they have the ability to even reconstruct the pages as you saw them. Somebody on your LAN with a packet sniffer could also do that. Your ISP essentially knows just about everything you do.

      On the other hand, I don't think that it needs to be a monetized service.

      A lot of people on this thread have expressed very sharp/derogatory comments about this aspect, and it really confounds me. How is it any differen than a search engine? Google isn't free -- they make their money through ads. i.e. somebody pays them money for providing the search service. Same as any other search engine. When you search for something on google, they know what you searched for, and they have so much information about the results/ads you clicked on. The data from that is mined to improve the targeting of their ads and their relevency rankings (AdSense, AdWords, PageRank). Google is the best search engine in the world because they continuously do the best job of mining this data and translating it into algorightms that improve their relevency. Nobody can do stuff for free -- even the FOSS folks need to make money from support, or dontions if nothing else. There's no technological reason the service can't be free, but MS did the work to develop this solution -- which executive in their right mind would say "you know what guys -- let's operate this thing at a loss -- I don't think we should make money off it".

      I can't think of a reason that a protocol couldn't be developed that scanning apps would implement

      I can't either. But who will operate the service for free? Even a consortium would have to make money in some way to keep the service up. Or if the government runs it, then the tax payers pay for it. In the current model, the guys that showed initiative (by creating the service and the apps) reap the reward (profit), the businesses/individuals who can gain from the service will pay for it directly, and eventually consumers will pay for it (indirectly) in the cost of goods (same as any other form of advertising). The enterpreneur made money, business got done, consumers got a service. That's as it should be. If consumers don't use the service, businesses won't see the value, and MS won't get paid. That's also as it should be.

      Essentially; what is Microsoft's role in this? Is it a critical role (you *need* the centralized server for some reason), or are they creating a false market segment?

      They appear to have solved a problem that nobody seems to have solved adequately so far. All existing solutions either fail to associate rich content with the tag, or score poorly on the pattern recognition front, and fail miserably in adverse conditions. This solution still has the drawback of requiring net access -- but if you have that, it's the best solution by far. So Microsoft's role has been to do the research into creating the tag format, developing and testing the scanning apps, getting OEMs and partners to adopt the technology, providing the service. They have not done this out of the goodness of their heart -- they're in the technology business, and they see this as a business opportunity. It's not a false market or a real market or anything in between. MS wants your business, and they're working to earn it -- same as any other business.

      I apologise if I sound bitter in this reponse. I really got excited about the possibilites when I saw this app, that's why I submitted the story to slashdot. I had asked a question in the submission about adoption of this tech., and possible uses -- because I saw a lot of promise in it. I mentioned a couple of uses such as printing a tag on your business card that work contacts can just

    2. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by EgoWumpus · · Score: 1

      You might note that I, in fact, suggested the pay-to-park scheme, and the subway ticket scheme. It's actually quite simple a concept; you scan the 'meter', and that tells your device to connect with the metering company, give it the meter data and your car data, which of course is connected to some account or bill. Perhaps more easily, your car could have a tag on it that the meter reads.

      Practical digital subway tokens seem harder to implement.

      Note, too, that in the GP post of mine, I noted after my first use of "Microsoft"; (or other service provider). Props to MS and any of the other half dozen companies who have been working on the implementation, but I can still question it's design. Simply put, there are several layers to this; one is the scanning of the image, being able to do it accurately and precisely under a wide variety of conditions. Another is the creation of the tag. Another is using tag data to reach a digital resource.

      I'm simply trying to posit that maybe there is no service to be offered here. If the tag can contain a GUID, then software ought to be able to use that to find the resource in question. That software could, in theory, be written by anyone, and have any number of additional features. I see no theoretical reason it needs to talk to a server to achieve this. The server seems extraneous to me. I don't see what function it is providing, and if it is providing none, you don't need to keep anything 'up'. All you have to do is write (and sell) the software that lets you connect a 2D tag to a data resource.

      Security wise, well, I could care less. But in theory, MS would know. Of course your ISP also has this data - but in that case it hasn't stated up front it is collecting your data to sell. Google sells it's data, and some people are unhappy about that. It feels wrong somehow, on a gut level. But I'm not sure, as you say, that that is important.

      Anyway; I can see your frustration that people are being naysayers, but don't take it out on poor ol' me! I'm with you on the front that the company, regardless of who they are, that can bring this to market is doing something neat. I do, however, see this particular implementation as having an extraneous revenue stream - and by that I mean 'cost to the end user'. With a public protocol the businesses using tags wouldn't need to pay for the server to route traffic. (Assuming that is all it does.) They don't have to increase their prices to the end user. MS isn't doing a service to society in general here, it's generating cash - and it's not clear to me that it's generating it by providing a service to a legitimate need. It's creating a need by wiring the technology a particular way. That doesn't seem cool. *shrug*

      Anyway, I think the use of this is pretty comprehensive. Professors can encourage kids to show up to class, because then they get their 'reading material tag', that they scan to see their books on their iPhone. Putting a tag on historical sites is a far less obtrusive way of making data about that site available. You could use a tag as a timecard for sites for which that infrastructure would be cumbersome; the supervisor or whatever just 'takes a photo' of your card, and the phone checks in with the accounting software. School teachers can make sure their kids are all together on their field trips by scanning their tags. Virtual graffiti can be left by having locational tags link to forums. You could use them in third world countries with limited infrastructure (limited bureaucracy tracking you) to identify people, or things that they should get. (Food, medicine, money, what have you.) But mostly I think it would make parking easier. ;)

      Anyway, good point; naysaying gets you nowhere. But feel free to take a breath.

      --

      [Ego]out

    3. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You might note that I, in fact, suggested the pay-to-park scheme, and the subway ticket scheme. It's actually quite simple a concept; you scan the 'meter', and that tells your device to connect with the metering company, give it the meter data and your car data, which of course is connected to some account or bill. Perhaps more easily, your car could have a tag on it that the meter reads

      Acknowledged! Thanks for the comments, and the cool ideas. I was blowing steam in general, and it happened to get out in my reply to you -- my aplogies.

    4. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      So the reason I think that you do need a central service: In the tags, I've counted 12 triangles in each row, and 5 rows of triangles. Each triangle can have 1 of 4 colors - so it represents a 2 bit value. So we've got 12*2*5/8 = 15 bytes of data on a tag.

      i.e. to get the awesome results they are getting (w.r.t. pattern recognition), MS had to reduce the data in the tag to a paltry 15 bytes. Some of that might even be checksum data. Once you're down to 15 bytes, I don't think it's practical to encode a URL or even a MIME type into the tag. All you have place for is a unique identifier -- and your scanning application will need to know the details of which service to talk to.

      Having said that, I don't really know if the tags I've seen so far are indicative of the maximum amount of data that can be encoded into an MS Tag. But I suspect that is indeed the case -- after all, if they expand the tag to get more data into it, they start compromising on the scanning results again.

    5. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by EgoWumpus · · Score: 1

      Well, an ip address only requires four bytes - say another one for a port number. That gives you ten bytes, or five characters to code additional data in. Yeah, that's not very much. You could work with it, but it'd be more than trivially difficult.

      Still, that's not very much right now. I suppose I could accept the idea that the service would serve a purpose for a short period of time - but I do worry about lock-in if the technology took off and the resolution became better. As an open protocol this seems much more useful to me.

      In fact, I think the real place to monetize this is in the applications provided. Take, for instance, parking meter situation. Microsoft serves as the quick middleman in the transaction; but your phone's program needs to know how to make the transaction, even once it's been connected to the service. That software is worth something to you as a consumer - perhaps even as a service itself.

      --

      [Ego]out

    6. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I mostly agree with you except for one thing -- 4 bytes limits the server to an IPv4 address. Might be ok, but makes me pretty squeamish.

    7. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by EgoWumpus · · Score: 1

      Honestly, me too. ;)

      --

      [Ego]out

    8. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Or more realistically, you'd type "delta flight info" or something into google and then click the link. So Google would know it instead of Microsoft. Okay, maybe you personally wouldn't, but a great many people would. I know I would -- google is easier to navigate than trying to find my way around individual sites.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    9. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if I go to Delta's website to see my flight information, only Delta really knows I did so

      Actually your gateway and every hop along the way knows you were on Delta's site. If your traffic wasn't SSL-encrypted, they have the ability to even reconstruct the pages as you saw them. Somebody on your LAN with a packet sniffer could also do that. Your ISP essentially knows just about everything you do.

      So? That's because there's a practical need in order to get the traffic where it's going. That doesn't mean Microsoft has any reason to know where you go as well.

      I can't think of a reason that a protocol couldn't be developed that scanning apps would implement

      I can't either. But who will operate the service for free? Even a consortium would have to make money in some way to keep the service up. Or if the government runs it, then the tax payers pay for it. In the current model, the guys that showed initiative (by creating the service and the apps) reap the reward (profit), the businesses/individuals who can gain from the service will pay for it directly, and eventually consumers will pay for it (indirectly) in the cost of goods (same as any other form of advertising). The enterpreneur made money, business got done, consumers got a service. That's as it should be. If consumers don't use the service, businesses won't see the value, and MS won't get paid. That's also as it should be.

      I fail to see what this model offers over QR Codes as used in Japan. QR Codes can contain a fair amount of data encoded in the barcode itself - enough for small images, or plenty of text. Those barcodes cost nothing to maintain once they're out there. If needed, the barcode can contain a URL, where more data can be provided. Most organization which would want to distribute these barcodes in the first place have their own webspace available, where they could easily host the content without having to pay extra to a third party. For those without, there's no technical reason a third party which did nothing but store data for these URL barcodes couldn't exist. Or multiple third parties, and let the free market determine pricing, rather than grant Microsoft the monopoly on it because they decided to reinvent what's already been done perfectly well in other parts of the world.

      Essentially; what is Microsoft's role in this? Is it a critical role (you *need* the centralized server for some reason), or are they creating a false market segment?

      They appear to have solved a problem that nobody seems to have solved adequately so far. All existing solutions either fail to associate rich content with the tag, or score poorly on the pattern recognition front, and fail miserably in adverse conditions. This solution still has the drawback of requiring net access -- but if you have that, it's the best solution by far. So Microsoft's role has been to do the research into creating the tag format, developing and testing the scanning apps, getting OEMs and partners to adopt the technology, providing the service. They have not done this out of the goodness of their heart -- they're in the technology business, and they see this as a business opportunity. It's not a false market or a real market or anything in between. MS wants your business, and they're working to earn it -- same as any other business.

      As above, this adds nothing over what could already be done with existing technology. Having lived in Japan for a year, I can tell you that reading QR Codes on a cellphone is even simpler than point-and-click. You just point, and before you would have even pressed the button to tell it to read, it's already recognized the barcode and read the data. Works perfectly in all sorts of lighting conditions.

      I mentioned a couple of uses such as printing a tag on your business card that work contacts

    10. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      So? That's because there's a practical need in order to get the traffic where it's going. That doesn't mean Microsoft has any reason to know where you go as well.

      The practical need, in this case, is the requirement to resolve the tag with it's data -- simple. MS isn't keeping a file on you. Relax. This is still no different than a search engine gathering data to use for analytics for their Ad engine.

      I fail to see what this model offers over QR Codes as used in Japan. QR Codes can contain a fair amount of data encoded in the barcode itself - enough for small images, or plenty of text.

      QR codes do work -- but they have their limitations. I've seen ridiculous number of QR codes that had too much data, were too small to scan properly.

      Having lived in Japan for a year, I can tell you that reading QR Codes on a cellphone is even simpler than point-and-click. You just point, and before you would have even pressed the button to tell it to read, it's already recognized the barcode and read the data. Works perfectly in all sorts of lighting conditions.

      Scanning works the same in both cases. The difference is that QR codes don't work as often as you claim. You have to be very careful when creating a QR code so as to not put too much data into it.

      My issue with it is the reinventing the wheel in such a way that you have to go through them. A more versatile version of the wheel already exists and is already an ISO standard. I don't see how this adds any value, but see how it adds a number of limitations for no good technical reason.

      I guess that's a difference of opinion then. The Microsoft Tag wheel is superior to the QR code wheel IMHO simply because scanning the tag is so much more reliable, and everything hinges on that. For the hundreds of examples of easy to scan QR codes you can give me, I can give you hundreds of examples of QR codes that won't scan.

      In any case it's probably a moot point. You already get scanning apps for phones that can decode multiple tag formats. I can easily see them just adding a new format to the list of things they recognize. All the "lock-in" related objections are just typical slashdot noise. There's no reason the world can't accommodate another tag format. There's no lock-in just because tag data gets resolved through MS's service. If QR codes are as good as you claim they are, I don't see how MS is going to arm-twist everyone in the world to use their tags, and charge exorbitant rates, and violate your privacy etc.

    11. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      For the hundreds of examples of easy to scan QR codes you can give me, I can give you hundreds of examples of QR codes that won't scan.

      Got a link to one? I don't recall having any problems with a real-world QR Code. Contrived examples like the one on the wikipedia page on QR Codes are problematic, but I don't think I've ever seen someone really try cramming so much data in practice that it wouldn't scan.

      And again, URLs encoded in QR Codes still handle the case where there is a large amount of data.

      There's no lock-in just because tag data gets resolved through MS's service.

      You can't use the tag format without it going through Microsoft, and getting them to agree to store whatever data goes with your tag. Being artificially limited to one vendor is more or less the definition of vendor lock-in.

    12. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1
      Sure, here are a couple of problematic examples:
      http://mobile-tagging.blogspot.com/2008/11/code-entdeckt-7-firmendbde.html
      http://mobile-tagging.blogspot.com/2008/10/qr-code-webimage-analyse.html

      This one goes to my point about how big they have to get to be scanned reliably as the data on them increases. Any tag would get bigger in that sort of application (public billboard type of thing), but some tags will have to expand more than others -- QR codes being one of them:
      http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ytpyXKt50yY/SNi5ZMDvawI/AAAAAAAAAJw/QHLT02DGGKQ/s1600-h/169589.jpg

      I've seen a few QR codes in a fashion campaign once that were just impossible to scan, no matter what I did. Couldn't find the images online though.

      And again, URLs encoded in QR Codes still handle the case where there is a large amount of data.

      Agreed. You need to watch the length of the URL though. Once you need to fall back on TinyURL you might as well do exactly what MS tags does.

      Being artificially limited to one vendor is more or less the definition of vendor lock-in.

      Right -- but you're not limited to one vendor. There's no reason we can't have QR codes, Datamatrix codes, MS Tags, and more co-existing peacefully. There's no reason scanning apps can't recognize multiple tag formats and know what to do with them. Most already recognize all key formats, and will probably add MS tags if they catch on. MS's own apps only recognize MS tags right now, but they've stated that they're adding formats..

    13. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      Sure, here are a couple of problematic examples:

      http://mobile-tagging.blogspot.com/2008/11/code-entdeckt-7-firmendbde.html

      http://mobile-tagging.blogspot.com/2008/10/qr-code-webimage-analyse.html

      Those both worked flawlessly on my Japanese cellphone from a few years ago.

      Being artificially limited to one vendor is more or less the definition of vendor lock-in.

      Right -- but you're not limited to one vendor. There's no reason we can't have QR codes, Datamatrix codes, MS Tags, and more co-existing peacefully. There's no reason scanning apps can't recognize multiple tag formats and know what to do with them. Most already recognize all key formats, and will probably add MS tags if they catch on. MS's own apps only recognize MS tags right now, but they've stated that they're adding formats..

      There's also no real good reason for the creation of new formats when existing formats do work well beyond NIH syndrom.

    14. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      There's also no real good reason for the creation of new formats when existing formats do work well beyond NIH syndrom.

      That's not very fair of you.. they didn't work well (scanned eventually, but took effort to find the right angle, distance) on my phone. Perhaps your phone has a better camera. Besides, you could be accused of having the same syndrome, causing you to not give MS tags a fair shake. (I'm not saying that's the case -- merely pointing out how unnecessary that line is).

    15. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      Perhaps your phone has a better camera.

      Maybe. Or maybe it has better decoding software. I don't know. I just know that in my experience, the technology is there and it works pretty well. And by the time something like this ever takes off in the US (it's been talked about for a long time, but hasn't really gone anywhere - if anything, this is the advantage of MS pushing it, they'll get publicity), the average cellphone camera will be even better, and so there should be even fewer problems, almost regardless of the particular barcode standard in use.

      From Wikipedia (emphasis added):

      Not Invented Here (NIH) is a term used to describe persistent sociological, corporate or institutional culture that avoids using or buying already existing products, research or knowledge because of its different origins.

      I could probably be accused of being anti-MS, paranoid about privacy concerns, or a number of other things, but NIH is not really one of them in this case. I'm proposing using the already existing technologies instead of needlessly inventing new alternatives that I don't see as adding anything significant.

    16. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I just know that in my experience, the technology is there and it works pretty well.

      I guess we've just had different experiences then. I use QuickMark for QR/Datamatrix codes and the MS tag scanner for MS Tags (obv.) -- on my phone I was getting mixed results with some QR codes (like the ones I pointed out), but much better results with MS tags. The hardware is common in this case.

      I could probably be accused of being anti-MS, paranoid about privacy concerns, or a number of other things, but NIH is not really one of them in this case. I'm proposing using the already existing technologies instead of needlessly inventing new alternatives that I don't see as adding anything significant.

      Why is it ok to have QRs + Datamatrix + others, but not ok to have the same mix + MS tags then? That's the reason I was talking about reverse NIH -- it's not that I think you're being particularly anti-MS or anything -- its just that one yardstick of redundancy applied to all existing formats, but when MS's format enters the game (and it's the only one that brings anything different to the table, IMHO), it's "needlessly inventing new alternatives"?

    17. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by uhmmmm · · Score: 1

      I guess we've just had different experiences then. I use QuickMark for QR/Datamatrix codes and the MS tag scanner for MS Tags (obv.) -- on my phone I was getting mixed results with some QR codes (like the ones I pointed out), but much better results with MS tags. The hardware is common in this case.

      I used the software that came preloaded on my Kyocera A5521K, which wasn't a particularly high end Japanese cellhpone when I got it in late 2006. It claims to be "MEDIASEEK/KDDI Barcode Reader & Maker 1.2.1"

      I could probably be accused of being anti-MS, paranoid about privacy concerns, or a number of other things, but NIH is not really one of them in this case. I'm proposing using the already existing technologies instead of needlessly inventing new alternatives that I don't see as adding anything significant.

      Why is it ok to have QRs + Datamatrix + others, but not ok to have the same mix + MS tags then? That's the reason I was talking about reverse NIH -- it's not that I think you're being particularly anti-MS or anything -- its just that one yardstick of redundancy applied to all existing formats, but when MS's format enters the game (and it's the only one that brings anything different to the table, IMHO), it's "needlessly inventing new alternatives"?

      I do think it's suboptimal having all these separate formats. I would prefer it if they consolidated on one common, open format, and I have a slight prefrence for QR Code there simply because it's the format with which I have the most experience. If I'd been aware of the proliferation of formats when those other formats were introduced, I'd likely have been arguing them as well, but as it is, it's a little late. Right or not, it's easier to argue against a new format than against one that's already somewhat entrenched.

      I'll take your word that MS Tags have been more reliable for you. But with as little trouble as I've had, I don't believe that the QR Code format makes it inherently unreliable.

    18. Re:Real World Hyperlinks by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Fair enough..

      I just can't wait for these formats to catch on a bit more in the US - it's frustrating the way we're always lagging in mobile stuff..

  57. Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

    Google's version of this encodes the URL directly in the tag. Google doesn't have any control over the content of the tag. Unless the person printing the tag chooses to send the data to google, google will never see it. If I want to publish a tag that someone can use from an Android phone or anything else using Google's applet, without Getting google into the loop, I can do that. I can do it without involving any Google products, Google patents, Google copyrights, Google APIs, Google anything, and they need never know about it... and it will also work for people using any of the other programs, created by different people using different software... that handle (say) Datamatrix codes.

    1. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Google's version of this encodes the URL directly in the tag. Google doesn't have any control over the content of the tag.

      Google's scanner uses QR codes -- we've already covered their limitations -- you put the content in the tag, but it's at the cost of reliable results for pattern recognition. I don't know if you've ever used these apps -- trust me the difference between scanning a QR code and a Microsoft tag is the difference between earth and heaven. One works, sorta/kinda and the other one works instantly/brilliantly.

      Now to make the scanning work as reliably as they did, they had to get the data out of the tag. Hence the web service.

      And finally, to address your privacy concerns about the web service -- the data you are sending to MS when looking up a tag -- compare that to the data you give google when you use their search engine, or the data you give any webmail provider when you use webmail, or quite simply the faith you place in your ISP considering all your non-SSL traffice passes through their servers, in the clear. That is why I mentioned AdSense (and AdWords, and PageRank). How do you think Google improves it's search relevencies? By mining the data they get from us. How are you able to place so much trust in these entities that store your personal email, know what you search for, know every site you ever visit, but get all up in arms over sending a tag number, ipaddress to MS, and receiving some data back?

    2. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      And finally, to address your privacy concerns about the web service -- the data you are sending to MS when looking up a tag,/i>

      I'm talking about the data you give to MS when you publish a tag. That's data you don't have to give to Google unless you choose to use Google advertising services.

      the data you give any webmail provider when you use webmail

      I run my own mailserver, which I access using SSL and SSH.

      but get all up in arms over sending a tag number, ipaddress to MS, and receiving some data back?

      You mean "over giving a company that's documented in court-case after court-case as using anything they can get hold of for anti-competitive activity a list of all your customers"?

    3. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I'm talking about the data you give to MS when you publish a tag. That's data you don't have to give to Google unless you choose to use Google advertising services.

      When you publish the tag, the data you give to MS -- that is exactly the same as the data you give to Google if you advertise through them. You are the advertiser in both cases.

      I run my own mailserver, which I access using SSL and SSH.

      Doesn't negate the fact that 100s of millions of people use web mail, so they exercise much more trust in an entity than this tagging scheme requires. Btw -- where do you think the emails you send to people get stored? In their mail servers! Any email you receive is 'sent mail' on someone else's server. Slice and dice it any way you wish -- you are much more trusting than you think, and you know less about security than you think.

      You mean "over giving a company that's documented in court-case after court-case as using anything they can get hold of for anti-competitive activity a list of all your customers"?

      Read the terms of service and privacy policy before making silly claims about "lists of all your customers". I'll leave that as an exercise for you.

    4. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      When you publish the tag, the data you give to MS -- that is exactly the same as the data you give to Google if you advertise through them.

      When I publish a tag that someone's going to read using Google's tag reader I don't have to advertise through them, because the tag is complete and self-contained. All I do is print a picture on paper, that's it. Google isn't in the loop any more than if I print "www.example.com" in plaintext on a billboard.

      Doesn't negate the fact that 100s of millions of people use web mail, so they exercise much more trust in an entity than this tagging scheme requires.

      Millions of people respond to spammers as well. Why do I have to jump over the cliff too?

      Any email you receive is 'sent mail' on someone else's server.

      Yep, and I keep that in mind when I send mail.

      Read the terms of service and privacy policy

      Whose?

    5. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      When I publish a tag that someone's going to read using Google's tag reader ...

      When you publish a tag using MS's service, the data you provide (as the advertiser) is the same that you would provide to Google, when you (as the advertiser) publish ads on the web, thorough Google's web ad service. Not their tagging service -- their web advertising service. The one that relies on AdWords and AdSense. In both cases, you are the advertiser. In both cases, you provide data to a service. In both cases, user's traffic comes to your site through that service. In both cases, that service has the opportunity to log whatever it wants to before redirecting the user to you. One service happens to be a tag reader and the other serves web ads -- but in the context of your privacy concerns they are completely identical.

      Millions of people respond to spammers as well. Why do I have to jump over the cliff too?

      There's no cliff for you to jump off, in this case.

      Yep, and I keep that in mind when I send mail.

      So the content in the mail you send, however careful you may be -- that's less than the data (ip address, tag-id, response) that MS may be logging when you look up a tag? You still have a logical fallacy here -- you are showing blind faith in every host you send email to, and zero in MS in spite of the fact that your exposure is greater in the email case.

      Read the terms of service and privacy policy

      Are you kidding me? You've been ranting about MS's service with barely a coherent thought. Which service do you think I'm asking you to look up the ToS and privacy policy for?

    6. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      When you publish a tag using MS's service, the data you provide (as the advertiser) is the same that you would provide to Google, when you (as the advertiser) publish ads on the web, thorough Google's web ad service.

      What the hell does "Google's Web Ad Service" have to do with anything?

      I'm talking about comparing Microsoft's proposed mechanism for providing machine-readable tags on physical objects with Google's proposed mechanism for providing machine readable tags on physical objects. Google has other products and services, sure, but this is the one that is similar to the one under discussion.

      that's less than the data (ip address, tag-id, response) that MS may be logging when you look up a tag?

      I've already pointed out that I'm talking about the data you make available to Google or Microsoft when you publish a tag (print it on a piece of paper or package). If you can't read, that's not my problem.

    7. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      What the hell does "Google's Web Ad Service" have to do with anything? I'm talking about comparing Microsoft's proposed mechanism for providing machine-readable tags on physical objects with Google's proposed mechanism for providing machine readable tags on physical objects. Google has other products and services, sure, but this is the one that is similar to the one under discussion.

      You said you had privacy concerns because of data passing through Microsoft's tag service. I showed you examples of more invasive services that you use every day without any issues. If you have no problem with Google's web ad service you have no grounds to have a problem with Microsoft's tag service. After that, the fact that QR scanning doesn't require a back end service is merely a technology difference -- not a privacy issue.

      I've already pointed out that I'm talking about the data you make available to Google or Microsoft when you publish a tag (print it on a piece of paper or package). If you can't read, that's not my problem.

      I know exactly what you're pointing out. However, the matter is simply broader than how you are trying to define it. Your privacy is at grave risk from web searching, ad clicks, image and video searches and clicking on results, sending email, browsing websites. The data from scanning tags doesn't even begin to compare to these things I've pointed out. So even though you only want to only compare tagging technologies, the matter is just not that simple.

      So to cut a long story short:
      - MS tags yield vastly better results for pattern recognition. In this way they are superior to QR codes.
      - Your privacy objections make no sense considering your use of the other services I pointed out. I hope you get it now.

    8. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      You said you had privacy concerns because of data passing through Microsoft's tag service.

      No, I didn't actually say that.

    9. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      You said you had privacy concerns because of data passing through Microsoft's tag service.

      No, I didn't actually say that.

      Great - so what's the problem?

    10. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      Commercial interference from and dependence on Microsoft's servers.

      I've been clotheslined by too many big companies to want to depend on ANY of them keeping a "free, commercial" online service up without using it for commercial advantage. Which is, of course, their right.

    11. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Commercial interference from and dependence on Microsoft's servers.

      You have exactly the same 'commercial interference from and dependence on' Google when you use their search engine. Surely you still use Google search?

      I've been clotheslined by too many big companies to want to depend on ANY of them keeping a "free, commercial" online service up without using it for commercial advantage. Which is, of course, their right.

      At least they have made a full disclosure that it's free for now, they might start charging in the future, and if/when they do any tags created before that will continue to work for two years. You have all the information you need to make a fully informed decision whether to use the service or not. Even if you chose not to use the service as an advertiser you have nothing to lose by using it as a consumer (i.e. scanning tags, not creating them). Nobody can or will force you to use it of course.

    12. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      You have exactly the same 'commercial interference from and dependence on' Google when you use their search engine. Surely you still use Google search?

      I'm not publishing (printing on product boxes, or whatever) information that depends on Google Search behaving in any particular way, nor do customers go through Google Search as an essential step to look up the data that I am publishing.

      You keep bringing up problems as if I'm saying "Google is good, Microsoft is bad". I'm not. I'm saying "Microsoft's product has these characteristics, other products (EVEN INCLUDING GOOGLE, WHO IS NOTORIOUS FOR DATA MINING) don't have these characteristics."

      Google isn't the only player in the 2d barcode scanner game, friend.

      You have all the information you need to make a fully informed decision whether to use the service or not.

      Indeed. So why do you keep coming up with red herrings when I thereby give the reasons I don't think it's a good idea to use it?

    13. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I'm not publishing (printing on product boxes, or whatever) information that depends on Google Search behaving in any particular way, nor do customers go through Google Search as an essential step to look up the data that I am publishing.

      Try this:
      1. Do an image search in Google.
      2. Open any result.
      3. Observe how it opens in a frame.
      The result is that Google knows exactly which result you looked up. It is not essential for Google to know that -- yet they have designed their image search to work that way.

      MS's reliance on their service isn't out of their desire to make you go through their service. To achieve better image recognition they had to reduce the data on the tag. This was the solution.

      You keep bringing up problems as if I'm saying "Google is good, Microsoft is bad". I'm not. I'm saying "Microsoft's product has these characteristics, other products (EVEN INCLUDING GOOGLE, WHO IS NOTORIOUS FOR DATA MINING) don't have these characteristics."

      1. Google products don't have these characteristics? Read what I've written about image search above.
      2. You are not claiming that MS is bad? Let me quote your original post:
      - "Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look..."
      - "And of course "A nice side-effect of this is also the ability for publishers to gather reporting data on how many times it was seen." Nice. Right."
      - "I don't need to get to Microsoft to call a phone number encoded in a 2d barcode. I don't need Microsoft to be accessible to use someone else's site. And don't tell me "Microsoft won't be down" for something that's peripheral to their business after last Friday's debacle."

      Google isn't the only player in the 2d barcode scanner game, friend.

      Google are not a player in the 2d barcode scanner, my friend. There is a barcode scanner available for their phone - that's all. There are a multitude of QR/Datamatrix/more scanner apps for just about every type of phone out there. MS's own scanning apps (the ones this article talked about) currently only scan MS Tags, but will expand to scan QRs, Datamatrix and possibly more (they have stated that more formats are coming, but not called out which formats. My assumption is that QRs and Datamatrix are the most obvious additions). In any event, there are several QR scanning apps for windows mobile already.

      Indeed. So why do you keep coming up with red herrings when I thereby give the reasons I don't think it's a good idea to use it?

      I submitted this story in the hope of discussing cool applications of such technology. Any hope I had of that sort of discussion got drowned out by people like you who are more interested in pushing an "MS is evil" agenda. I understand this is a public forum and I'm not in control of the direction the conversation takes -- but anybody reading this thread is bound to come away with the impression that MS tag is evil, spyware, god alone knows what, and has no purpose even existing. If you post nonsense like that, don't expect that somebody will not call you out. If you use/do-not use the app -- nobody can force you otherwise. If you had posted some valid, insightful objections/disadvantages/technical limitations, I would have enjoyed discussing them with you. What you posted, my friend, was garbage. Worse - it was redundant, sarcastic garbage. I merely called you out.

    14. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      Google products don't have these characteristics? Read what I've written about image search above.

      OK, let me try typing slower:

      THE GOOGLE PRODUCT THAT IS COMPARABLE TO THIS PARTICULAR MICROSOFT PRODUCT DOESN'T HAVE THIS CHARACTERISTIC.

      I submitted this story in the hope of discussing cool applications of such technology.

      Good for you. So why aren't you discussing it instead of drawing attention to my objections by engaging in a long and pointless thread where you deliberately misinterpret everything I post?

    15. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      THE GOOGLE PRODUCT THAT IS COMPARABLE TO THIS PARTICULAR MICROSOFT PRODUCT DOESN'T HAVE THIS CHARACTERISTIC.

      That's not slower - that's louder.

      QR Codes are not a Google product.

      QR Codes have drawbacks due to not having this characteristic. (When there's too much data in it, reading it is unreliable)

      Therefore, there's a purpose to MS Tags having this characteristic.

      In other scenarios (image search, web search, many more) this characterstic is widely accepted

      Simple point - yet you keep getting your panties in a bunch over this 'characteristic'.

      So why aren't you discussing it instead of drawing attention to my objections by engaging in a long and pointless thread where you deliberately misinterpret everything I post?

      Any chance of a discussion got ruined by posts like yours. I didn't misinterpret anything -- I tried to lay the logic above in the simplest terms, yet you refuse to see it.

    16. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      I didn't misinterpret anything

      Me: "EVEN GOOGLE doesn't require you to go back to the servers to read 2d barcodes.
      You: "but google is evil"
      Me: "and yet despite that, they don't require you do do that"
      You: "google does all this nasty stuff"
      Me: "The product we're talking about doesn't do that, and there's other readers than google's"
      You: "google google google! And google!"
      Me: "I'm not depending on those google products, the one that I might use doesn't have that problem"
      You: "google's other products, blah blah"
      Me: "why are you talking about google all the time"
      You: "that's not even a google product!"
      Me: ...

      I'm sorry, I can't type any slower than this.

    17. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      Me: "EVEN GOOGLE doesn't require you to go back to the servers to read 2d barcodes.

      Google has no part in the design or implementation of QR codes -- don't know how many more ways to tell you this. A more accurate statement is that QR codes don't have to be resolved against a server. Google never had to decide to require you, or not require you to do anything. When are you going to get that?

      You: "but google is evil"

      Not at all. It's just an easy example. I could use Yahoo, Ask.com, Live.com, any search or web mail provider, and more.

      I'm sorry, I can't type any slower than this.

      You think pretty slowly. Look - at this point in the conversation, it's pretty obvious that you've not even tried the tag scanning app. It's also obvious that you've never used a QR code either. If you had, by now, you would have at least pointed out some scenarios that QR codes enable but MS tags don't. There are scenarios like that -- but in 10+ posts you didn't mention even one because don't know about them. What are you even doing in this thread if you have no knowledge about what we're discussing?

      ps: don't bother googling for those scenarios -- your credibility is already shot..

    18. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by argent · · Score: 1

      Google has no part in the design or implementation of QR codes

      I never claimed they had. I said that they have shopped a *reader* for them. The reader they ship does not contact Google's servers. That's the only reason I mentioned Google at all. Google is not relevant other than that. Your continued hammering on Google is simply incomprehensible.

      If you had, by now, you would have at least pointed out some scenarios that QR codes enable but MS tags don't.

      I'm not trying to promote either QR or Datamatrix codes, at this point I'm simply responding to your increasingly hysterical anti-Google flames with "this isn't about Google".

    19. Re:Why do I care? Here's the bottom line. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      at this point I'm simply responding to your increasingly hysterical anti-Google flames with "this isn't about Google".

      First - at no point did I say anything negative about Google. Go back and read my posts.
      Second - you think I'm hysterical? Let me quote you again:
      - "Where's the beef... I mean patent? Oh, look..."
      - "And of course "A nice side-effect of this is also the ability for publishers to gather reporting data on how many times it was seen." Nice. Right."
      - "I don't need to get to Microsoft to call a phone number encoded in a 2d barcode. I don't need Microsoft to be accessible to use someone else's site. And don't tell me "Microsoft won't be down" for something that's peripheral to their business after last Friday's debacle."

      Oh well, at least you've admitted you don't know jack about the actual topic. I guess that's about as much intellectual honesty as I can expect from you.

  58. !CueCat by nsayer · · Score: 1

    No, it's not just like :cueCat. The big difference is mobility. The :cueCat was tethered to a PC, making it almost completely useless. These things make it possible to get more information on a thing you want to buy while you're in the store in front of one.

    Now, there are those who say that being directed to marketing material is a less than completely useful thing, but in a world where these things were ubiquitous, my hope is that the amount of intrusive advertising around us might get toned down. "Scan this for more info" is a whole lot less annoying than having a TV-DVD player playing an infomercial on an endless loop in the store. The latest outrage is that the TVs in the grocery store now don't seem to respond to TV-B-Gone anymore.

  59. There is a standard for this by DissociativeBehavior · · Score: 1

    I don't know how it is implemented by MS but there is a standard for this: the NFC Data Exchange Format. Nokia implements a standard Java API for this.

  60. Monotone vs. Color by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A defined 16-color palette would have the huge advantage, because it expands your pictographic vocabulary by leaps and bounds. Same as real life.

    Microsoft invented nothing. Repurposed the ideas of other people, then made sure it only works if you surrender your privacy.

  61. Re:Microsoft is Harvesting Data by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

    Hate to break it to you, but most marketers will be pretty happy to get this info, and since it's aggregate I don't really see an issue. It's not like they're going to be either harvesting or giving out info about "Bob's Cell Phone". They're just collecting information about how many "clicks" your posters or bar codes are getting, and which ones are in the best places and that sort of thing. Useful to customer and not harmful to the "clicker".

    --
    I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
  62. Re:wtf????? by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

    Yeah, it was a sad day when their article was deleted from Wikipedia.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  63. Not so fast: HEAPS of prior art here.. by cheros · · Score: 1

    There are quite a few of this "instant access" style 2D barcodes around. One is your basic 2D but bigger, I've seen one which looks like a honeycomb arrangement - it's neither new nor innovativate anymore (I guess that's why MS has finally picked it up:-)).

    I'm sure they'll try to screw any available standard and they're big enough to get away with it in the PC market (even though nobody will believe the ad in which Bill is doing his own shopping), but the mobile market has already shown quite a resistance to the MS "embrace and screw it up for everyone" approach.

    I'd say "wait and see". At least it'll expose all the journalists that have no idea what researching for an article means :-)

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  64. Looks that this tag system does not check misspell by dmaserver · · Score: 1
  65. Microsoft Research has come up with...what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..they've come up with nothing...

    The QR Code, and associated recognition s/ware has been around for -years-. There are many other similar efforts too, that have seen use on ambient posters, billboards, magazines etc etc.

    All of these will continue to suffer from the same problem, ubiquity and knowledge of the recognition software... I don't see MS, even with its marketing weight and mind-share being able to break through that problem.

    Besides, with the ubiquity of higher speed connectivity on mobile devices growing, an online service to decode all these tag variants (and indeed image simple recognition that doesn't require a tag at all) for you seems more likely a useful endevour.

  66. Re:Microsoft is Harvesting Data by Migraineman · · Score: 1
    I disagree. In order to use the application on your phone, you have to install Microsoft's closed-source application. It'll collect anything it can find. Also, when you register with Microsoft to use the application, you need to provide personal details. From Microsoft's "privacy" page associated with downloading the phone app:

    - When you register for certain Microsoft services, we will ask you to provide personal information.

    - The information we collect may be combined with information obtained from other Microsoft services and other companies.

    - We use cookies and other technologies to keep track of your interactions with our sites and services to offer a personalized experience.

    So, not only are they compiling stats about the destination site, they're doing it for the "clicker." The only reason to do this is so they can cram targeted advertising at you (the clicker.) You can call it a "personalized experience" if it makes you feel better, but it's still unsolicited advertising being thrust upon you. Again, no thanks. The last thing I would want is a third party (Microsoft) pissing-off my customers. They would associate that with me. I don't benefit from this relationship. Why would I put my customers at risk without any reward?

  67. Re:Microsoft is Harvesting Data by DrgnDancer · · Score: 1

    So I downloaded the app, and well, you're just wrong. There is no registration. The application works out of the box. My phone did ask me (and I permitted it) if the app could use my current location, but that's hardly "personal information" by any reasonable standard (and I could have said no). What other info is it going to send? My IP address? That's useless, a phone changes IPs constantly. Unless they have some deal with AT&T to match current DHCP settings at any given moment with IP addresses? And every other carrier? And all the Wifi hot-spots I might use? I suppose it could get my phone number out of the phones internal database (although I'm not sure that info is available to applications), but that's not really a all that useful as an identifier...

    I think you're being paranoid, and I also think that this could be anything related to Microsoft and you wouldn't like it. Which is fine... but making stuff up because you assume they want to steal all of your personal data isn't helpful to your cause.

    --
    I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
  68. Re:Microsoft is Harvesting Data by Migraineman · · Score: 1

    I also think that this could be anything related to Microsoft and you wouldn't like it

    Huh? It's not like I'm making unfounded accusations here. I quoted Microsoft's policy, and provided linkage back to the source so you can read it yourself in-context. They come right out and say that they're going to data-mine your personal information. That's a quote, not anti-Microsoft sentiment.

    One of the ways to download the phone application is to enter your phone number, and they'll send you a link on the mobile device. Once you provide your phone number, they can reverse lookup your name, address, and anything else associated with you.

    And this is hardly paranoia. Your local grocery stores do the same thing. They correlate credit cards with customer discount and gift cards. They cross-link that information with other companies' databases. This has been going on for years. Here, read this 2005 paper from Carnegie Mellon University [warning PDF]. Pay special attention to Section 3 - Tracking and Price Discrimination.

  69. "Nothing to type, no browsers to launch!" by real+gumby · · Score: 1

    Actually there is a browser to launch -- it's just the tag decoder app instead of Safari/Opera/whatever. Or a button to press. If not, that is if it reads any tag it sees in its visual field, then it's meatspace spam fodder. Or not just meatspace....I could mail you a JPEG with the image in it and boom.

    Just the usual hype-o-rama.

  70. Old wine on new bottles... by Fjodor42 · · Score: 1

    Sounds like what Aarhus University's Innovation Lab has had working for years (without calling it their own idea) - a 2D bar code reader for mobile phones, which they, btw., showed to the public at our annual city festival a few years back, where you could scan such codes and get information on parts of a tour that were made out of those...

    The ones I saw here were visually similar to QR Code, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcode#2D_barcodes lists a _lot_ of different 2D codes, and even says that QR Code is the standard for Japanese cell phones.

    I do hope they try to patent it somewhere outside of the US ;-)

    --
    "The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
  71. Cuecat?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see Microsoft has finally reached the 90's and thus "innovated" the defunct cuecat.

  72. You can have both by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    No need to choose. QR for static data that does not change and URLs for dynamic data.

    What would be cool would be some sort of route planner that caches extra info for you. eg. If you're going on vacation, cache all the QR codes for the airports you're going to. eg2. Going to a convention, cache all the info on the various booths etc.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  73. Re:Microsoft is Harvesting Data by plover · · Score: 1

    Interesting paper, but the study referenced in section 3 is virtually irrelevant to the point you're trying to make. They were studying the effect of charging the "higher paying" customer the higher price, and noted that the customer would defer the purchase if they thought they wouldn't get a good deal. That's true.

    But real-world frequent shopper programs reward customers who spend more money, not less. That is the reverse of the situation tested in the study. This strategy succeeds even when all participants have full knowledge of how the system works. The customer who spends more money will realize a "bigger" discount, and will continue to participate even if that discount represents only a tiny fraction of the overall price paid. This can be seen in shopper loyalty cards, frequent flyer mile programs, cash-back rewards on credit cards, mail-in rebates, etc.

    The disruptive or anonymizing technologies mentioned in the paper work against receiving a discount. By providing false (or no) information about themselves, they can not receive the personalized message containing the discount, and thus get no benefit. (A shopper loyalty card that automatically gives discounts without an issued coupon, however, is vulnerable to misuse through anonymity. The only way to avoid that is to issue the coupon through an out-of-band channel, such as a mailing, email, or SMS, that proves the function of a method of marketing to the customer.)

    These systems are extremely popular because they produce proven, measurable increases in sales and profit. Targeted advertising, coupons, loyalty programs, discriminatory pricing, all have been shown to increase traffic and revenue. They've also identified the price people are willing to pay in exchange for an effective marketing channel.

    --
    John
  74. Great Consumer Applications by Hershmire · · Score: 1

    1. Price comparison - Aim this at the barcode in store, and have it search Newegg/Amazon/whatever immediately for comparable prices.

    2. Preview content - play clips from songs while you look at CDs or display a trailer for a movie

    3. Magazines - aim at the Economist (or Seventeen or whatever) and get links to similar online content

    4. Compatibility - Point at a wireless network product and see what technology it runs. Point at a motherboard and see if your current hard drive format is supported.

    If they open the API, then there will be endless possibilities.

    And for your CueCat haters, it didn't work because 1. It wasn't mobile, 2. Hardly anyone supported it and 3. They didn't want anyone using it for what it wasn't "officially" designated. Solve these problems on MS Tag and you'll have an awesome service.

    --
    if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll); //Stupid roommates.
  75. The best Microsoft Tag: by Roman+Mamedov · · Score: 1




    Post Comment
    Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
    Filter error: You can type more than that for your comment.

  76. Now what we need... by deanston · · Score: 1

    is a tag that will create an infinite loop in the server farm. Didn't Jordi use that as an unsolvable puzzle to defeat the Borg?

  77. ...but you can't upload data! by Bubblehead · · Score: 1

    In Japan, QR Codes are not only used to download data (i.e. a link to a web page), but also to upload data. I.e. after playing a video game in an arcade, a QR Code is shown on the screen. Take a picture of it, and your high score will be uploaded to the game provider's server (to have a global high-score table for that game). That's not possible with MS tags, as they are just pointers, never carrying additional information.

    --
    Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
  78. It's STILL not about Google. by argent · · Score: 1

    First - at no point did I say anything negative about Google.

    OK, make that "at this point I'm simply responding to your increasingly irrelevant attempts to make this about unrelated Google products".

    1. Re:It's STILL not about Google. by dhavleak · · Score: 1

      I repeat: I said nothing negative about Google. It was merely one of many examples.

      I also repeat: since you've admitted you don't know jack about the topic at hand, I don't care what you say now.

    2. Re:It's STILL not about Google. by argent · · Score: 1

      *snort*