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A Teacher Asking Students To Destroy Notes?
zwei2stein writes "I found this question with far-reaching implications in the off-topic section of a forum I frequent: 'My economics teacher is forcing us to give up all of our work for the semester. Every page of notes and paper must be turned over to her to be destroyed to prevent future students from copying it. My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?' Besides the issue with private property invasion, which was the trigger of that post, there is much more important question: Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge? How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge? Whose property are those notes?"
You wrote them? They belong to you.
This is called theft, there is no other word for it. File a police report immediately.
easy solutions:
a) photocopy the notes
b) type them up to begin with
c) leave ITT TECH and go to a real university
Nature journal lied in Britannica vs Wikipedia Ask to retrac
Even American public schools, which don't offer students the same protections against search and seizure as other citizens, still require reasonable doubt for a search - and that's for illegal materials. Even if you were in a high school, it would still be illegal for her to go into your backpack and take your property.
I'm assuming you're at a college or university, in which case it's extremely illegal.
You pay for school to learn, and what you write down is your work not hers. I would definitely contact the higher ups at your school and the police for theft.
Theft, unlawful search and seizure, destruction of property..... You could go nuts with this. This can't possibly be legal.
Alchemist: Be Thou For the People
1) With the school. 2) With the local police. 3) Contact a major news outlet. 4) Refuse going to that class until settled. 5) Contact local ACLU type outfit. Write down the event now, while it's still fresh.
She is trying to prevent frats etc from building up a set of 'files' on her class.
It's pointless as now that the word is out students will simply keep extra copies.
What kind of class is so unimportant that you wouldn't want to keep your notes and maybe texts.
The notes belong to you. But that's not the only issue.
Is the teacher tenured? You might want to pick you battles or at least join a group of students to protest to the dean.
Don't file a police report.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
As soon as she violated my space or property, i'd treat her like anyone else not in my family or friends circle. She'd back the fuck up, or i'd clock her right there. You don't steal from me. Yes, i'd go to jail over it if need be.
Is the purpose of a college class to give a student knowledge of a field of study? Or is it to just award a credit towards a degree?
Sound to me that the lecturer thinks it's the latter, which is a problem. Those notes are a valuable resource to any student who wants to retain that knowledge, whether for future classes, a job after college, or just for the pure love of knowledge for its own sake. The student has paid for those notes in time, effort, and money. Asking him to give them up is short-sighted and stupid. Taking them from his backpack is theft.
*Do* file a police report, *do* talk to a lawyer.
*Also* scan all the docs into .pdf and put them all online.
Letting criminals like your prof get away with their crimes (theft is a crime, and illegal) only encourages their deviant behavior (normal people don't steal, your prof is a deviant).
You paid your tuition so that you could gain knowledge.
Forcing you to give up your notes is effectively saying that you must retain everything in your head, which is ridiculous.
They're your notes, you paid to be able to take them. She has no right.
And even beyond that, it's unreasonable search and seizure by a civilian (what would that fall under, larceny?) for her to go into your backpack without your permission. File a police report and involve the administration of your school.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
You don't "copy" class notes, you write class notes. In your own words. There is a big difference. You are the author.
Make sure to do all these things on the same day. Make sure the news story goes out before school officials have time to react. That is what they deserve.
Are you serious? You allowed the teacher to go into your backpack, which is your private property, and take something which belonged to you, while doing nothing about it? Not even the cops can go into your backpack like that.
Why are so many people so freakin spineless?
I don't want to sound like an internet warrior here, but dude, if a teacher tried to do that to me, I would prevent them, pushing / punching / kicking them if I had to as a last resort.
(No, this does not make me a 'violent idiot' as someone else stated, it just means I have enough backbone stand up for myself in person with ACTION rather than on the internet with words. ACTION is the only sort of standing up that really matters, when it all comes down to it.)
You do know that you have the right to defend your personal property, right? Man up.
Yes, I know this could lead to repercussions from the university, such as being threatened with expulsion - that's when you get lawyers involved.
There's no way to say how it would pan out, but you have the advantage that, in the eyes of the law, you are in the right and they are in the wrong - provided you don't pull a weapon or beat them to death, anyway. That equates to a lot of potential negative publicity which the university probably doesn't want.
If you make a big enough stink about it, they'll most likely just let it slide eventually - though it will be tough for a while.
You might get kicked out, but Jesus H Christ man, you cannot go through life acting like a minnow and bending over when you know what someone else is doing is wrong.
STAND UP for yourself for god's sake. Let the chips fall where they may. When you get to the end of your life, you aren't going to wish you were nicer to that teacher (instead of punching them square in the solar plexus), but you will probably regret allowing people to trample all over you and never quite getting what you wanted.
This has been a public service announcement.
Does it actually matter if the story is true or not, as long as it gives a topic for discussion? It is claimed to have actually happened, and it provides a good topic for exploring the community's beliefs about personal rights.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Well you can't do anything now since you consented to her taking them by letting her in your backpack. Sounds like you just got a lesson in 4th amendment rights. Never let anyone, including authority figures cop teachers, have your personal property ever. Even if you have nothing to hide.
The correct thing to do is to go to an appropriate dean (which one depends on how the school is structured - in the university I attended, it could have been the dean who oversees the professor, or the dean of the college of my major, or the "dean of students") and explain that the professor opened your backpack without your permission and took from you notes which you wrote on paper you paid for, and that this is theft and you want your notes back. If they are reluctant to act, explain to them very politely that you're trying to help them by not making this criminal theft a matter for the police, and won't they please consider doing something about it?
And having printed an unenforceable rule makes it valid? Why is this?
That's pretty disgusting. Not only for the obvious invasion of privacy (reaching into the bag - not for suspected contraband) but mostly because the teacher never changing the curriculum.
This is the epitome of terrible teaching, to me. The teacher could no longer give a fuck about 'freshening things up' and instead will drone on, with *exactly* the same material, year after year. The kids in the class will pick up on that vibe and will never experience the joy that *can* be found in the material.
That is the sackable offense.
.
You know what facilitates memory even better in the real world?
Google.
"What's the equation for the volume of a cylinder?"
"I don't know, but if I did need to know I know I could look it up in Google in under 10 seconds. Furthermore if I need to know the volume of a cylinder enough times that it'll be important to memorize the brain will do this thing called learn it from repetitive Google searches."
School should be a timed open book and open internet affair. You would stop learning retarded things (like dates) and focus on the important parts of history for instance like possible causes and motivations.
Which is more important the date that the Napoleonic war began or the reasons it began? The more thorough the understanding necessary the more research that will be necessary the less banal the education.
I had no idea theft was a civil offense. I mean physical theft where you take away some person's property, not the copyright violations that some people call "theft" today.
Thanks to the MAFIAA, people seem to be blurring the lines between philosophical discussion and actual physical violence where someone's property is forcibly taken away.
Hey folks, write this down: TAKING AWAY A BINDER IS THEFT. COPYING A FILE IS NOT THEFT. Is this clear?
If you take all your notes on a laptop in class, there aren't many teachers who would dare to try to steal the machine from you.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This is a matter that could be reasonable resolved without going to for the last resort straight away.
Neither I nor my parents ever signed a contract for me to attend my school. How does fine-print stand up?
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
Right. Additionally this is a teaching concern. If the teacher is so concerned with cheating that they are willing to go to such great lengths to prevent it then perhaps they would best be counseled by their peers.
This seems to be a case of the teacher being too lazy to mix things up from year to year. Additionally (Especially at a college level) You are paying for that class, and those notes are one of the few means available to re-study the material from. If I got wiff of this ahead of time, my notes would be at home. If necessary - I would negotiate a review of the situation with the teachers boss before agreeing to anything, and that teacher would basically have to take my backpack off me to get at my notes, which I will likely assume to be a form of assault and respond in kind (which means pushing their arm away and leaving (Hey - this isn't my house, I have to retreat before striking back))
No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.
This is a matter that could be reasonable resolved without going to for the last resort straight away.
Once someone takes another person's property, they are beyond the pale. This is a matter for the law.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The topic starter at least understood that this is wrong, and took the initiative to ask for advice on what to do. Sounds like the kind of person who will at least make a stand and say. Frankly, the teacher is being lazy: they should prepare new tests each year if cheating is a problem, not demand that students abandon their notes, and certainly not forcibly remove the notebooks from their backpacks. I would, at the very least, report this to the principal (this is a high school, or so someone else said) and include the phrases "petty theft" and "intellectual property" in that complaint (assuming it is not high school, I would go to the provost with the same complaint).
Palm trees and 8
This suggests a bad teacher/professor. If your students can get by simply by copying notes, then you are not teaching the subject properly. Students need to learn to apply the subject, not just repeat memorized notes.
In a properly taught class, all the notes and books in the world available to you during the exam won't save you unless you learned and understand the subject.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
LOL. Some of you people are so hilarious, always trying to show off your legal acumen. I'd love to see you get any court anywhere to agree with you. That's like saying that since the teacher said you need to answer 60% of the exam questions correct or she will your for that exam, she's blackmailing you into answering correctly. Or if she said classroom attendance is mandatory for a passing grade, she's blackmailing you into attending class.
Let's look at your precious section 21 of the 1968 Theft Act.
I challenge you to show me where the teacher has an intent to gain, or an intent to cause the student to incur a loss? Furthermore, I'd suggest that the teacher has demonstrated reasonable ground for making the demand (she may not be correct in taking the notes to prevent cheating, but it isn't unreasonable for her to think it is), and the threat of a failing grade is also proper means of enforcing the demand (that's her job...to give you a bad grade if you don't complete the course requirements).
I suspect any judge would laugh you out of court (but not before "blackmailing" you with with further punishment if you don't pay your court costs in a timely manner).
That was a long time ago. The purpose of schools is to earn money for the schools. Sometimes it's for brainwashing also, but then there's usually a long-term goal of making more money for a church in the calculation.
Learning stuff in school? That's just a bonus.
My other account has a 3-digit UID.
Many responses here seem extremely excessive, especially on a site that is usually quick to criticise going heavy-handed with lawyers. Why go with the weapon of last resort and eliminate all the other options provided for the purpose?
Try being reasonable and diplomatic. That won't limit the heavier options later on and can actually benefit them - here in the UK you are generally expected to extinguish reasonable options before going to court (either way it'll certainly look better).
Try simply explaining that you require the notes to maintain the knowledge for use in later life and have no intention of handing it out to others. Carefully explain that the notes are your property, both physically (you bought the paper) and intellectually, making the position clear but leaving the teacher's own mind to envision the potential for legal action. You DID supply the paper, and there isn't any slide handouts in there, right?
If that still doesn't work, advise the teacher that she should not destroy the notes while you explore other options (being careful to be non-threatening). At this point there may be a more friendly teacher you could approach who may be able to mediate and tactfully resolve this without fuss. People change their minds more readily when it is a friend/colleague/peer presenting their perspective, and where there is minimal consequence from being wrong. Why be all confrontational? This goes both ways: it's an opportunity for YOU to discover you are wrong, in a manner with minimal consequences for you...
If that fails, keep elevating it one step at a time. That would probably involve a parent writing to the teacher, the headteacher and next attending a PTA/PTO meeting.
Still not resolved? No doubt there are still more options and then, ultimately, court and/or newspapers. The intermediate steps will only benefit these options, not reduce them.
Organisations and society in general provide numerous means, checks and balances to sustain your rights. It's such a pity when people ignore them and skip to the option of last resort - courts are supposed to be there only for when society and organisations fail to provide fairness and justice.
Can't these people consider proportionality and appropriateness? Is it really necessary to harm a teachers career and potentially the school for the sake of some notes, without even bothering to make some common sense attempts first?
Ya know, that's a good point. This is GOVERNMENT that we are talking about. A teacher can no more copyright her notes, than a Congressman can copyright his speeches in the House, or a president copyright his emails in the White House, or the FCC chairman copyright his documentations/rulings.
It's the People's property. All things in government belong to the people, and is public domain. Some of it might be kept secret for defense purposes, but eventually it gets released. This teacher is a government employee and all things she creates while on the government clock belong to the People, and in the public domain.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
True that the notes are yours as work product and all that...the bigger issue is how "negative" this is to the whole concept of education, research and learning.
I know in my econ (and stats, etc) courses, I *often* referred to earlier class notes in subsequent classes. I think it is really appalling that a teacher would actively seek to strip students of their academic output.
1.) The original victim should immediately report this to the proper authorities.
2.) The original victim was correct by not fighting back. A little physical resistance may simply be blown out of proportion and end up in unintended consequences. For example, if I block someone with my shoulder, I can easily send someone to the ground. If they are intent on forcibly removing your items, make sure it is witnessed or by another person of authority. Being alone with a teacher is like being alone with most slashdotters, you will suddenly be covered in Vaseline.
3.) Before completely vilifying the teacher, the full story should come out. The teacher may not be allowed to change the curriculum. Most teachers are in a no win situation, as the school boards prefer mindless automatons as both students and teachers.
Basic items that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights are so fundamentally basic that it is implicit that they may not be violated under any circumstances unless there is a strong and compelling public interest to the contrary... aka yelling "FIRE!" in a public setting when nothing is burning (context applies here too!)
In terms of the application of the 1st and 4th amendment rights between private persons, any contract that would violate these basic rights including the right of search and seizure are invalid and would be found to be illegal. You can deny entry to somebody who chooses not to comply, but you can't do a search after you have let them onto your property without due process and just cause. It doesn't matter if this is a private school or an airport, the same principles apply.
Any contract that requires you to either perform or go through a process that is illegal is null and void. This is like saying that it is valid to sign a contract permitting you to get raped whenever you get onto some piece of private property. Yeah, I'd like to see that one get enforced.
BTW, the 1st amendment issue here is in regards to the use, transcription, and publication of lecture notes. I am asserting here that the student is free to take legitimate scholarly quotes of the professor and to use them in the process of note-taking that not only can't be confiscated, but can even be published commercially if the student desires. There is nothing even a private school can do to stop such actions by a student, as it wouldn't even be copyright infringement as long as the student follows legitimate fair-use practices. A school policy to the contrary would be found to be illegal, even at a completely 100% privately (not even federal student aid) funded institution.
By accepting the tuition and application of the student, the school/university has an implied contract to teach the student, so they can't even expel a student for violating such a policy that prohibits the keeping of notes.