Local Police Want To Jam Wireless Signals

The Washington Post is reporting on the growing pressure from state and local law enforcement agencies for permission to jam wireless signals the way the Secret Service and the FBI can. Officials especially want to be able to drop a no-call blanket over local prisons around the country from time to time. "...jamming remains strictly illegal for state and local agencies. Federal officials barely acknowledge that they use it inside the United States, and the few federal agencies that can jam signals usually must seek a legal waiver first. The quest to expand the technology has invigorated a debate about how widely jamming should be allowed and whether its value as a common crime-fighting strategy outweighs its downsides, including restricting the constant access to the airwaves that Americans have come to expect. ... Critics warn of another potential problem, 'friendly fire,' when one agency inadvertently jams another's access to the airwaves, posing a safety hazard in an emergency. [CTIA spokesman Joe] Farren said there are 'smarter, better and safer alternatives,' such as stopping inmates from getting smuggled cellphones in the first place or pinpointing signals from unauthorized callers."

Comments

This will come up

[SolidAltar]

Question: How the hell do you smuggle a cell phone into prison?
Answer: You don't. You bribe/threaten a guard.

Re:This will come up

[Ethanol-fueled]

Right. Same with sneaking drugs into prisons as well.

Even small amounts of dope or a cell phone is worth hundreds of dollars in the 'joint(typically a fourfold increase). Good dope dealers can make thousands a week from the inside.

So why does so much taxpayer money go towards a poverty industrial complex which isn't even doing its job? Typical bright idea from lawmakers: "Hey, lets solve the problem by just hiding it from everybody else!"

Re:This will come up

[timeOday]

So, wait a minute, what's your solution again - make sure no prison guards ever break the rules? That'll work. I suppose your approach to setting login passwords is "just leave 'em blank. Dishonesty is a social problem, not a technical one, and people should be honest enough not to use each others' accounts." Sure they should, but - more to the point - it ain't gonna happen.

By the way what does "poverty industrial complex" mean?

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

While there is more corruption in prison than anyone would like to admit, all the compact technology in a cell phone is tremendous, and it keeps getting smaller and easier to smuggle.

Also, most prisons are criminally understaffed. It is far easier to bribe a guard when there are less eyes on the prisoners and less colleagues who are keeping an eye on other staff as well (although I note the administrative ranks seem to be swelling).

Jammers make the most amount of sense on a per cost basis, but the underlying problems in prisons remains.*

*Works in a prison.

Re:This will come up

[nmb3000]

So why does so much taxpayer money go towards a poverty industrial complex which isn't even doing its job?

I think that's being just a little disingenuous. You could just as easily say "Crimes go unsolved and criminal unpunished. Why does so much taxpayer money go towards police departments which aren't doing their jobs?" or similarly, "People break laws all the time with no consequences. Why does so much taxpayer money go towards enforcing and creating laws which aren't doing their jobs?".

Just because something doesn't work all the time for all the people doesn't mean it isn't worth the investment or that it should be dismissed outright. The fact is that while the law enforcement/prison system may not be perfect, it is preventing some people from committing additional unlawful acts. When you're talking about crimes such as theft, rape, murder, etc., that is a significant and worthy cause.

Re:This will come up

[MichaelSmith]

Carrier pigeon, obviously.

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[tyrione]

Try, ``impoverished labor force of the US Industrial Complex.''

Re:This will come up

[__aawvly5046]

I personally know someone who had his probation revoked for smuggling a mobile phone into a UK prison in his arse

Re:This will come up

[whois_drek]

Question: How the hell do you smuggle a cell phone into prison? Answer: You don't. You bribe/threaten a guard. Sure, you can smuggle a cell phone into prison. At our local county jail, the inmates tend a three-acre garden during the summer. There's no fence around it, no bars, no watch towers. Anybody could drop a cell phone or a stash of drugs into a carved-out watermelon, and it's trotted into the prison kitchen the next day. Three inmates work at the animal shelter next door as well. While the inmates hose out the kennels, people off the street walk up and down looking at animals. How can the shelter workers tell that one of the visitors isn't the inmate's cousin, dropping off a bag of drugs? It's laughably easy to smuggle things into prison, especially minimum-security ones with work-release programs.

Re:This will come up

[RabidMoose]

Unfortunately, you're right. There's likely no 100% effective way to prevent the smuggling of items into prisons.
Say you invent a magical contriband detector that always sees any item you want on a person. All it takes is to bribe the person operating the machine, and it becomes useless. Make a machine that's totally automated and decides for itself, and you're getting dangerously close to Skynet.

Re:This will come up

[mjensen]

I generally agree, but.....

Doesn't this promote the idea that there are unlawful acts that you can get away with, if you are skillful or lucky? I'm talking about speeding and general traffic laws, so its a little different case.

But if you break the law enough times, it can bring someone to think that they can break more laws and not get caught.

Re:This will come up

[thesupraman]

It is simple to set up a cell inside a prison that cellphones will connect to, which will then ID all calls, the details of the phone, and with a little RDF even its approximate location.

So it would be quite simple to clear dis-allowed cellphones from inside a prison, of course they dont - this should give you some idea of the scale of the problems in the prison system.

Why not make it the law that all non-registered cellphones using the prinsons cell site coverage are automatically logged (phone details AND voice recorded..) - surely that would make the value of the phones almost nothing.

Of course again, there goes a big source of lets call it 'power' from the bad prison associates, so it will not happen.

Its not just the men locking doors and doing searches who can be corrupt, in fact I would suggest its not even mainly them..

Re:This will come up

[troll8901]

I don't think these minimum security prisoners are the ones we're targeting, are we?

Re:This will come up

[Schemat1c]

Just because something doesn't work all the time for all the people doesn't mean it isn't worth the investment or that it should be dismissed outright. The fact is that while the law enforcement/prison system may not be perfect, it is preventing some people from committing additional unlawful acts. When you're talking about crimes such as theft, rape, murder, etc., that is a significant and worthy cause.

The prison system is a complete failure. The guards make insane amounts of money as do the companies that get contracted to perform services such as food and laundry. This leads to corruption on many levels all the way up to the lawmakers who pass ridiculous laws in order to keep the prisons full. The prison guards have a very powerful lobby in CA that was instrumental in stopping Proposition 5 which would have reduced prison populations dramatically and saved billions in tax dollars.

There is nothing worthy about this system. The majority of prisoners are non-violent offenders, mostly drug offenses that should be treated as a medical issue rather than a criminal one. A simple Google search will give you all the information you need to know about Prison Inc.

Re:This will come up

[amRadioHed]

The accessibility of drugs and other contraband in jail kind of shines a spotlight on the stupidity of the war on drugs. I mean if the government can't even come close to keeping drugs out of a place where people have no freedom at all, why do they think they can do it in a supposedly free country?

Re:This will come up

[solweil]

your post made me think of those cattle prod wielding robots in THX-1138

Re:This will come up

[rtb61]

What is the more correct conclusion, is when the system is failing but has potential, you review and alter the system so as to reduce the failure potential. Privatised for profit prisons will always be a failure at rehabilitation, as rehabilitation costs money and in reality eliminates the future profit potential of current inmates (no repeat offenders).

Corporations are simple amoral engines of greed, their priority is to charge as much as possible while spending the least amount possible, hence locking up convicted inmates in the cheapest way possible that they are legally able to get away with. So low cost guards basically low IQ thugs in uniform who often derive perverted sexual fulfilment from abusing people, rather then properly trained correctional (note the term) services officers, which of course would 'cost' a corporation two to three times as much, where as of course repeat offenders only cost the public ten to one hundred times that in damages, pain and suffering, so corporate profits first the publics interest last and keep those returning profits from repeat offenders coming in.

The reality is that a prison should in fact be the most law abiding place in society, otherwise the supervision and rehabilitation is demonstrated to be a total failure. Rather than blocking transmissions that should be tracking them to find the contraband then pursuing the trail of evidence to apprehend all those involved and of course turn the smuggling prison guard into an inmate and demonstrate the effectiveness of law enforcing institution and it's staff. Jamming the signals, the cheap solution which is basically giving up on enforcing law within in prison.

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[JTorres176]

Cellular phones don't last forever. Most prisons don't allow prisoners to have electrical appliances in their cells. Remove all electrical outlets inside the cells and let the cell phones die after a few hours of use.

It won't stop new ones from coming in, but it would damn sure have to increase the flow enough to cause a few more ripples.

Re:This will come up

[couchslug]

Your idea is excellent, which is why prison officials have probably not thought of it.

The techno-igorant reflex is to "turn things off" rather than "think of creative ways to change the situation".

Re:This will come up

[PachmanP]

Was it on ring or vibrate?

I also wouldn't look forward to the "what's that smell" conversations...

Re:This will come up

[atraintocry]

I think he was agreeing. And if you don't think prison labor is a huge industry, well, it is.

Re:This will come up

[Rasperin]

Kill criminals... solve the problem of crime really fast.

Re:This will come up

[Rasperin]

Solar chargers, game,set,match.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that most of the resources available to local police departments are spent on enforcing traffic laws, not the prevention of violent crime.

And at least locally (south Louisiana) this isn't even effective, as you are more likely to get pulled over and ticketed for having an expired inspection sticker than for running a red light. (despite the city having recently installed red light camera with blinding flashes on every major intersection)

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Question: How the hell do you smuggle a cell phone into prison? Answer: You don't. You bribe/threaten a guard.

Actually....most of the time the cell phones come from the legal counsel of the accused.

Re:This will come up

[broward]

This isn't about prisons.

This is about Mumbai.

Re:This will come up

[LoRdTAW]

The hacks are the ones selling dope, cellphones, cigarettes, etc. Why would they let a person under their control make money?

Re:This will come up

[lysergic.acid]

i'm pretty sure most prisons (in the U.S.) allow their prisoners to have TVs and radios. in fact, my boss has Charles Ng's old TV set.

electron appliances must have clear plastic enclosures (so that contraband can't be hidden inside of them) and, like all other belongings inmates are allowed to have, must be ordered from the catalogs of special prison-approved suppliers--who no doubt enjoy lucrative profits from effectively cornering the market on all prisoner-purchased goods.

frankly, i think that prisons should just give the inmates a landline and bill them for usage. that would make it much easier to control/monitor inmate communications. it's not like giving them access to a phone is hurting anyone or puts the public in danger. granting them this privilege would also provide prison officials another point of leverage. it's one more privilege that can be revoked if an inmate breaks the rules. furthermore, giving inmates an easy means of communicating with the outside world also protects prisoners against potential abuses by the prison staff. places like prisons & mental hospitals, where one group of individuals is given total control over the lives of another group of individuals, create conditions which invite abuse, especially if the individuals locked up are completely cut off from the outside.

in fact, it would probably be best if every prison cell were furnished with a computer and internet access. not only would it give inmates (assuming they can read) plenty of mental stimuli and provide a great source of enrichment, which is especially important in maintaining the mental health of inmates in solitary confinement, but it would also give them access to the huge wealth of knowledge on the web and, both, encourage and facilitate learning & self-improvement. simply by providing inmates with a computer & internet connection you give them all the tools they need to pursue an education in almost any subject they want. they can teach themselves how to program, study law/philosophy/history/etc., or learn graphic design/digital media production and other vocational skills simply by availing themselves to online resources. and it's probably a lot cheaper than maintaining a prison library and offering real-life classes on only a limited number of subjects. not to mention that if you provide means for prisoners to keep busy in constructive ways, they will get into less trouble and be more cooperative/easier to control.

of course, all of this assumes that prisons are corrections facilities meant to ultimately rehabilitate inmates rather than to dehumanize them and lock them up forever. just like an educated person is less likely to turn to crime in the first place, an educated inmate is less likely to return to their previous life of crime when they are released. but at the rate we're locking people up, it's unlikely that our prison system will have the resources to actually rehabilitate prisoners.

Re:This will come up

[Tiger4]

Electrical appliances? Go further. Just return most prisons to 1850 - 1900 level of technology. No TV, radio, phones, electrical (other than lighting). Mail, magazines and newspapers once per week, inspected of course. If you want to move up to 1930 (radios and phones) or swanky 1960 (TV in color, air conditioning), you gotta earn it.

Re:This will come up

[swabeui]

I've yet to hear of a prison that has a surplus of cash lying around either. The idea is a good one, but owning cell towers myself I am aware of the costs of such a project. To put it bluntly, the monthly operating costs would be more money then a box that jammed signals. Once you add in staff, initial equipment costs, etc... well, you get the idea.

Re:This will come up

[__aasqbs9791]

How much is it to own a cell tower then? I've always wondered about it. And how do you make money with it? Do you sell contracts to telcos or something?

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Question: How the hell do you smuggle a cell phone into prison?

Step 1: Samsung Juke
Step 2: Buy a tube of KY
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit

Re:This will come up

[loteck]

If you think that you are not a criminal, it is for one of three reasons:

1 - You are a criminal and you know it, but you haven't been caught yet, so you haven't been publicly labeled as such or

2 - You are ignorant of laws that criminalize things you do (and there are oh so many laws) or

3 - They haven't passed a law against what you enjoy doing yet.

There are libraries, Neo, endless libraries to hold all of our laws. We, as private citizens, are overrun with laws that examine our personal lives and behavior and make criminals of us all. All the State need do is to shine their spotlight on your life and soon enough you too will find yourself a "criminal".

So you might not want to be so quick to suggest capital punishment for all of those who run afoul of the government. Just sayin.

Re:This will come up

[Hordeking]

Typical bright idea from lawmakers: "Hey, lets solve the problem by just hiding it from everybody else!"

This is just a government instantiation of "sweep the problem under the rug." Move along now, nothing new to see here.

Re:This will come up

[Hordeking]

Wouldn't it be easier to just encase the prison in a big faraday cage?

Re:This will come up

[Tau_Xi]

Question: How the hell do you smuggle a cell phone into prison? Answer: You don't...want to know.

Fixed that for ya!

Re:This will come up

[adf92343414]

For one, this would violate the 4th Amendment rights of the people (excepting prisoners and guards, both of whom can be searched at will) whose calls were logged. The previous administration may have used this point as an argument in the plan's favor, but it is not.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

I could be wrong on this, but doesn't the contraband prison item usually get "tucked" into area's that the guards really hate sticking their fingers or hands in? I would prefer to use a jammer over the other.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you consider an "insane amounts of money"? They make a lot less the me, and I'm far from rich. I lived in a prison town ( Monroe WA). The Guards are generally good people who make an average living. They make much less then a Realtor, plumber, electrician, car sales men, even roto-rooter guy. And none of these people have to put their lives on the line every day.
Sure, there are a lot of problems with the legal system, but its an ignorant statement to say the average guard makes an insane amount of money (unless your comparing it to your 7-11 pay check)

Re:This will come up

[xenocide2]

Except that inmate calls are highly monitored. They want to know which inmate is calling who. Inmates aren't allowed to call to cell phones, let alone use them.

Re:This will come up

[wampus]

Prisons already contract out prisoner telcom services, I don't see why this would be any different.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

And naturally, as criminals, they would never ever do anything they were not allowed to do.

Re:This will come up

[EdIII]

stupidity of the war on drugs

stupid (stpd, sty-) adj. stupider, stupidest 1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse. 2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes. 3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake. 4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied. 5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job. n. A stupid or foolish person.

The war on drugs is far from being pointless, worthless, or created with a lack of intelligence. It's only that you are under the delusion (which is simply a result of rampant propaganda) that the purpose of the war is to benefit our society.

The prison industry is worth billions to private parties, the control that government gets to exert in the name of the war is impossibly enticing, and the ability to confiscate property involved with drugs is profitable to the right people.

Re:This will come up

[TooMuchToDo]

It's pretty expensive to put the equipment onsite to run a cellsite, not including the cost of the uplink back to the provider's central network (T1s in most places, but fiber in some places).

Re:This will come up

[EdIII]

How could a Faraday cage be easier?

Cell sites as they are right now can triangulate a cell signal. That's required by federal law for 911 calls made on a cell phone. It's the enhanced E911 calling rules enforced by the FCC. I think right now in their current phase location information has to be accurate to 50-300 meters. Of course that is not precise enough to locate it within a prison system, but the technology to do this already exists. By 2012, the location information has to be *more* precise.

Creating a couple of cell sites located at the four corners of a prison would intercept all cell phones and even more precise information is available for those calls.

In any case, triangulation of any type of radio signals are easier than building a Faraday cage around a prison system.

Re:This will come up

[b4upoo]

Prisons should be using enough sound and visual recording devices to stop all smuggling and violence. A prison making claim that they can not control things is confessing to not doing their job.

Re:This will come up

[amRadioHed]

The war on drugs is stupid. Thanks for assuming I'm an idiot, but I am aware that a lot of people from law enforcement to drug cartels profit immensely from the status quo. I don't care. Having a corrupt system doesn't mean the resulting bad policies are any less stupid.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Shove it up your ass!

Re:This will come up

[phoenix321]

My thoughts exactly. Lighting embedded in the walls and in heights out of reach for the maximum security prison. TV sets and radio embedded and mounted out of reach the same way in minimum security or "bonus"-level prison for inmates who cooperate.

No power sockets, though - no one needs them

Re:This will come up

[icebrain]

"Give me six lines written by the most honest of men, and I will find something in them which will hang him."

Cardinal Richelieu

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

I truly respect your highness, lord Richelieu -- flattery! is not illegal on your mom

Re:This will come up

[drpt]

Question: How the hell do you smuggle a cell phone into prison?

Answer: Personal training, and a tube of K-Y
you should also make sure the phone is off (or at least on vibrate)

Re:This will come up

[Shakrai]

Why not make it the law that all non-registered cellphones using the prinsons cell site coverage are automatically logged (phone details AND voice recorded..) - surely that would make the value of the phones almost nothing.

So when I drive past prisons my constitutional rights no longer apply and all my phone calls get recorded?

Re:This will come up

[Shakrai]

For one, this would violate the 4th Amendment rights of the people (excepting prisoners and guards, both of whom can be searched at will)

Umm, why would the guards have no 4th amendment rights? Perhaps they agree to be searched as a condition of employment but I don't think you lose your right to due process simply by virtue of working a correctional job. If they refused the search I'm sure they could be fired but I'd like to know why they can be searched at will.

Re:This will come up

[Shakrai]

And naturally, as criminals, they would never ever do anything they were not allowed to do.

That's why gun laws have stopped gun violence.

Re:This will come up

[westlake]

The guards make insane amounts of money

I wonder:

Median annual earnings of correctional officers and jailers were $35,760 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $28,320 and $46,500. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $23,600, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $58,580. Median annual earnings in the public sector were $47,750 in the Federal Government, $36,140 in State government, and $34,820 in local government. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, the starting salary for Federal correctional officers was $28,862 a year in 2007. Occupational Outlook Handbook 2008-2009: Correctional Officers

"They're hiring 18-year-olds two months out of high school. "We've got officers who are 70 years old, senior citizens. That's a security risk." Physical fitness standards have been lowered, with overweight, out-of-shape correctional officers in the system. Many Texans support keeping prisons as inhospitable as possible because they're supposed to be about punishment, but those same poor conditions (think double shifts with no air conditioning in the Texas summer heat) combine with low pay to make it nearly impossible to staff current prisons in their existing, mostly rural locations. Texas prison guard salary ranks 47th among states [Apr 7, 2008]

Trinity Services Group is the second food services company to tell the Department of Corrections it can't afford to keep feeding prisoners. The company said it's losing $100,000 a month on its contract to feed inmates in the north-central part of the state and at three prisons in South Florida. The company, which was paid $21-million last fiscal year, said it's losing money because food and fuel costs are rising at the rate of 9 percent, far in excess of the 2 percent inflation cushion allowed in its state contract. Trinity is paid 88 cents for every meal served. Oldsmar company opts out of prison food service [Sept 19, 2008]

Re:This will come up

[concord]

I think it's kinda funny that we naively go about our business believing that the prison systems cannot afford to implement things like cell phone honeypots or jamming devices locally when they are obviously not as poor as we think. Let's take this recent example of a prison system that spent 77,000 dollars to update the prison with 117 brand new flat screen high definition televisions for their inmates.
     

Re:This will come up

[OzoneLad]

Can you even give up your constitutional rights as a condition of employment? Does that mean some company could ask you to waive your right to Free Speech as a condition of employment?

I can't see any way this could be abused. Nope. It's aaaaaall good.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Question: How the hell do you smuggle a cell phone into prison?
Answer: You don't. You bribe/threaten a guard.

Forget all the prison BS. That's just a red herring to cover the real intent for local LE access to jamming technology.

The real desire is for its usefulness (as a "valuable tool", which, by definition, we never want to deprive our crime-fighters of) in urban warfare situations. The next time the WTO meets, the authorities don't want another Seattle (or wherever it was a couple of years back). The intent is to screw over the ability of the demonstrators to coordinate protest actions by cellphone.

And don't worry about the "friendly fire" canard either. None of the necessary gov't. frequencies are in the relatively restricted phone or wireless card bands.

As for the delegates or other assembled swells, they'll be given access to all the land line capacity they want for free. They'll be told that any temporary loss of access to their cellphones is a small price to pay for being able to return home with their asses still attached.

Re:This will come up

[Shakrai]

You don't really "give up" your rights per say -- you typically give up your "right" to employment if you break the agreement that you made with your employer.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

in fact, it would probably be best if every prison cell were furnished with a computer and internet access. not only would it give inmates (assuming they can read) plenty of mental stimuli and provide a great source of enrichment, which is especially important in maintaining the mental health of inmates in solitary confinement, but it would also give them access to the huge wealth of knowledge on the web and, both, encourage and facilitate learning & self-improvement. simply by providing inmates with a computer & internet connection you give them all the tools they need to pursue an education in almost any subject they want. they can teach themselves how to program, study law/philosophy/history/etc., or learn graphic design/digital media production and other vocational skills simply by availing themselves to online resources. and it's probably a lot cheaper than maintaining a prison library and offering real-life classes on only a limited number of subjects. not to mention that if you provide means for prisoners to keep busy in constructive ways, they will get into less trouble and be more cooperative/easier to control.

This is a terrible idea. If you thought you were getting a lot of spam now, wait until prisoners start harassing your inbox. Then they'll learn how to do internet searches for every detail about their targets including residence, employment, credit history, etc. Netnanny? Right, 'cause dumbshit high school kids can't figure out proxies in one afternoon, so prisoners with 24 hours a day to kill certainly won't.
Now if you'd said put them on a LAN with no internet access, maybe I'd be a little more comfortable with the idea. Personally, though, I tend to prefer that prisoners use the time of their sentence for contemplation of how they got themselves in their situation, not for learning how to victimize more people. Let the creative ones express themselves in the wood shop, not on the tubes.

Re:This will come up

[Golddess]

Netnanny? Right, 'cause dumbshit high school kids can't figure out proxies in one afternoon, so prisoners with 24 hours a day to kill certainly won't.

What if you used a white-list of acceptable sites rather than a black-list/blocked-keywords? While I would never advocate such an approach outside a prison, I don't see how that could be worked around.

Although I guess someplace like Wikipedia could offer a sort of digital dead drop.

Re:This will come up

[redxxx]

For one, this would violate the 4th Amendment rights of the people (excepting prisoners and guards, both of whom can be searched at will) whose calls were logged. The previous administration may have used this point as an argument in the plan's favor, but it is not.

I don't really like the government being able to intercept and record any phone conversation that happens near a jail. However, if they were required to do a little blurb in Spanish and English that the call was being recorded and why, it would be alright. It would make it a very effective method of discouraging unauthorized use of cell phones, without egregiously harming anyone's rights.

Re:This will come up

[redxxx]

Kill criminals... solve the problem of crime really fast.

It has never worked before. Ever. What it does do is create lawless areas.

Look at europe or asia during the middle and dark ages. It doesn't help, it just means they are more willing to fight against the police and will have more support from and ever more lawless community.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

The sound of the point he was making going right over your head.

Business making billions of dollars off the drug "war" != stupid

Re:This will come up

[OrangeTide]

A simple consumer model costs around $300 to $1500 depending on range. You would need multiple small cells to cover a prison effectively though.

I think the idea is a good one, but you would have to provide a federal mandate for it and federal money for it. Else states wouldn't be willing to do it (except a few like California)

Re:This will come up

[AndersOSU]

I've yet to hear of a prison that has a surplus of cash lying around

Then you haven't been paying attention. link (2007 gross profits $194.20 million)

Of course implementing solutions would entail actually running prisons and not just shuttling tax money to friends of people in high places.

Re:This will come up

[Darundal]

Never heard of an NDA, have you?

Re:This will come up

[HaKKa]

now thats using your noodle good thought I must say

Re:This will come up

[digitalsolo]

>

I think that's being just a little disingenuous. You could just as easily say "Crimes go unsolved and criminal unpunished. Why does so much taxpayer money go towards police departments which aren't doing their jobs?"

Actually, depending on where you are in the country, that might be a valid question.

A few years ago, one of my cars was broken into; I called the police (non emergency number, of course) and informed them. They didn't even care enough to take my name. They asked for the address for trending, and refused to so much as listen to any other information.

8 months later, in the same district, I was pulled over for having a headlight out (loose wire actually). 3 cop cars came to the stop. They were quite intent on giving me a 200 dollar ticket until I jiggled the wire and fixed it.

I could tolerate their behavior more in the first instance, if it were not for their behavior in the second. As it stands, it begs the question: "Why does so much taxpayer money go towards police departments which aren't doing their jobs?"

Re:This will come up

[kabocox]

Unfortunately, you're right. There's likely no 100% effective way to prevent the smuggling of items into prisons.
Say you invent a magical contriband detector that always sees any item you want on a person. All it takes is to bribe the person operating the machine, and it becomes useless. Make a machine that's totally automated and decides for itself, and you're getting dangerously close to Skynet.

Oh please, it doesn't take skynet. All it takes is to treat everyone entering/exiting the said prison to be treated to the same entry requirements/searches as the prisoners. If it were required for everyone entering a prison to strip, change into visitor, worker, or prisoner cloths and leave all other belongings in a locker, then you'd slow/stop alot of that. You'd also want to record the entire session as well and make smuggling anything into prison a crime. (And not have the prison workers be the ones monitoring the videos.) This would mean if any given visitor, prison worker, or prisoner was videoed smuggling anything into the prison, then the same actions would be taken towards the individuals. (Sure, I doubt that would ever happen.)

Re:This will come up

[Hordeking]

While you missed the sarcasm, I do agree with you. You could probably actually use the actual cell signal to get far more precise. I was recently working on GPS route-planning software that can get down to an error of +- 1" (one inch, no mistake). It used cell phone signals to eliminate the GPS error.

Re:This will come up

[Hordeking]

While you missed the sarcasm

<cheek><tongue /></cheek> That was meant as part of the original reply.

Re:This will come up

[kabocox]

What is the more correct conclusion, is when the system is failing but has potential, you review and alter the system so as to reduce the failure potential. Privatised for profit prisons will always be a failure at rehabilitation, as rehabilitation costs money and in reality eliminates the future profit potential of current inmates (no repeat offenders).

Corporations are simple amoral engines of greed, their priority is to charge as much as possible while spending the least amount possible, hence locking up convicted inmates in the cheapest way possible that they are legally able to get away with. So low cost guards basically low IQ thugs in uniform who often derive perverted sexual fulfilment from abusing people, rather then properly trained correctional (note the term) services officers, which of course would 'cost' a corporation two to three times as much, where as of course repeat offenders only cost the public ten to one hundred times that in damages, pain and suffering, so corporate profits first the publics interest last and keep those returning profits from repeat offenders coming in.

Um, you are confusing why most folks want prisoners to be sent to prison. They don't want rehabilitation. They want punishment. They want these prisoners dropped into a prison/hole and never to be let back into their society ever again. They don't want to pay for individuals to try to brain wash them into being better citizens. That's what education and religion are for and it's failed in these cases. It's to late for that. It isn't to late to hire similar minded citizens that haven't broken the law to put them in charge of the punishment of the prisoners though. That's why people get upset when they hear that prisoners are living a soft life and aren't being harshly punished in prison.

I'm mixed on it myself. I'd rather build a single prison arcology and everyone that commits a crime in the rest of the US gets sent to the arcology. (I'd not have any prison guards or such except to prevent folks leaving.) It's one of those things where as long as I don't ever have to be aware of what the conditions are like within said arcology are like than I just don't care. If the arcology is mostly self supporting, than we can just send our rejects there.

Re:This will come up

[coolsnowmen]

Did you even read the article you linked to? That $77K didn't come from the 'prison system.'

"Canteen money is raised by prisoner purchases of items such as toiletries and food, the proceeds of which go into a fund to benefit inmates"

So this money, is from prisoners, for prisoners. It allows for the DOC to get the prisoners comfort items with prisoner's money.

You would fail at arguing that a cell-phone honey-pot system is a comfort item for the prisoners.

Re:This will come up

[Schemat1c]

Well, my mother has worked for the California prison system for 15 years and knows tons guards personally (I call them guards, she calls them correctional officers). I just spoke with her and the base salary of guards was arount 100,000 a year and many can push it to 150,000 with overtime. Why do you think their union fought so hard to defeat Prop 5?

Also you are quoting federal wages, most prisons are run at the state level.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: #3.. if they haven't passed a law criminalizing something.. uhh.. doesn't that make it legal?

Also, many laws are not enforced, and even if the spotlight of the law was shown on you they still wouldn't be enforced. (You need a prosecutor to prosecute, a judge to not throw out, and 12 out of 12 people to convict).

Finally, not all laws that are broken make you a criminal. Driving 70 in a 65 is breaking a law, but does not make you a criminal*.

Take off the tin-foil hat dude.

*Don't you dare be pedantic enough to quote me the definition of criminal from Dictionary.com

Re:This will come up

[Defectuous]

In that particular case if you read the article linked. The money for those TV's came from inmates through purchase of food and other personal items. Any excess funds was saved for inmate's benefits. I do not dis-agree with this, as to blanketing the prison I am defiantly in support of it. As long as there was a solid reason for such.

Re:This will come up

[Zenaku]

So, don't allow any sunlight into the cells either. Medieval Dungeons FTW!

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you just pass it through the bars. One jail I know of is very strapped for cash (And while a jail, they get the felony offenders too because the prisons don't have room for them). They used to have a huge problem with people passing things--like sledgehammers--through the bars of the cells. Their solution was brilliant: if they put a whole bunch of chickens in the field around the prison, the chickens would make a huge ruckus anytime someone tried to visit a prisoner without going through channels.

Officially, of course, they couldn't do that--the chickens just showed up one day, so far as the record is concerned.

Also, keeping contraband completely out of prisons is impossible--I know of one inmate who has a picture of him holding an AK-47 in his cell.

Re:This will come up

[bostongraf]

Actually, if you really read that article, the money used is from a fund paid for by the prisoners and it is specifically earmarked for prisoner benfits. No taxpayer dollars were used. It is money from prisoners for prisoners. Why do you care what (legal) items it gets spent on? This site spends a lot of time talking about how people are locked up needlessly, but then they complain when we let them use their own money to get something that they want?

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be even more simple to just let them have cell phones. I mean, really. They can, in theory, already use the phones in the prisons, and it's not like the prisons are deliberately gouging the families of the imprisoned with ridiculous phone rates..

And that way all the phones can be easily tracked. Win/win.

Re:This will come up

[networkBoy]

two words:
Directional antennas. Fairly easy to make the prison cells unavailable to phones not on the prison property.
-nB

Re:This will come up

[Reziac]

Also, there is a pocket industry of people whose job is to find and confiscate illicit cell phones in prisons. I'd guess they have a vested interest in the cellphone system being untouched, lest they become superfluous.

But as someone above implies, methinks the real reason is kickbacks from inmates' "business ventures", and privatized prisons having essentially no oversight.

Re:This will come up

[Reziac]

And as I contend, the "war on drugs" is largely pushed and financed BY the "drug lords" as its in their best financial interests to keep prices artificially high. Between that and the asset forfeiture culture engendered by the DEA (and now spreading to every aspect of law, as new laws are passed) there is huge FINANCIAL incentive to keep the "war on drugs" going.

With anything you can't stop regardless, the best approach is to regulate and tax it, and do so reasonably enough to prevent a black market from regaining prominence. That way at least you aren't creating a criminal class with no benefit to anyone (other than corrupt officials). We should have learned that lesson once and for all during Prohibition, but evidently a couple generations is sufficient to totally forget any lesson from history.

Re:This will come up

[Reziac]

I don't know what the max wage is after a long career working for the CA prison system, but I've been given to understand from local "we're hiring" ads that the starting wage is about $50,000 per year, plus benefits -- and full-wage retirement after just 20 years.

Which is part of why it costs around $25k to keep a single convict, in the style to which they are now accustomed, for just one year.

Your tax dollars at work.

Re:This will come up

[Reziac]

Even that, I think, is not the real point.

Privatized prisons have a vested interest in the maximum proliferation of new laws that turn ordinary activities into crimes, thus generating as many "new customers" as possible -- but preferably customers who are easier and CHEAPER to maintain, rather than expensive max-security nightmares.

(Me? cynical?? what gives you that idea?!)

Re:This will come up

[mariox19]

Physical fitness standards have been lowered, with overweight, out-of-shape correctional officers in the system.

Give the prisoners couches, digital cable, and all the junk food they can eat; give the guards hours and hours per day to lift weights. Problem solved.

Re:This will come up

[Behrooz]

I've yet to hear of a prison that has a surplus of cash lying around either.

In any bureaucracy, a surplus of cash is by nature a self-resolving problem:
"Quick, spend it before they notice and reduce next year's budget!"

From that perspective, prisons simply have the additional advantage of operating under low-oversight conditions.

Re:This will come up

[EdIII]

The war on drugs is stupid.

The definition of stupid does not fit here. As a said, it could only be stupid if it was pointless or created without intelligence. Even you yourself admit that the agencies themselves and the drug cartels profit from this "status quo". The creation of this "status quo" as you call it cannot then meet the definition of the word stupid. It is neither pointless nor created without intelligence as it has served the needs of certain people very well.

You cannot evaluate an action to be stupid from your point of view. It must be evaluated from the point of view of the person committing the act. Did it accomplish some purpose for that person? Was there intelligence in how the action was performed, or was it just random chance?

Thanks for assuming I'm an idiot,

You are assuming I am assuming your an idiot. Just calm down. I never stated anything remotely like that. I only said you wrong in saying it was stupid. The closest you may feel I came was stating you were deluded. Delusion is not a state of idiocy. It specifically means that a 3rd party was deliberately deceiving you. The "rampant propaganda" was what may have been used to make you believe something that is not true. If you had believed that the true purpose of the war on drugs was to benefit society, my statement that you were deluded is reasonable and should not be construed as an insult.

Having a corrupt system doesn't mean the resulting bad policies are any less stupid.

It's not stupid as it does not mean the definition of stupid. Saying it is so, does not make it so. Furthermore, it detracts from our arguments against the governments actions here. Generally, stupid is a weak word. Especially so, when it used to describe situations that does not fit its definition.

This corrupt system that you refer to was not created with a lack of intelligence. There was deliberate purpose in the creation of the policies that set the system up, which is not pointless acts.

The best thing to say about it is, quite simply, that it is corrupt .

Re:This will come up

[EdIII]

but evidently a couple generations is sufficient to totally forget any lesson from history

I would contend they learned the lessons quite well actually. I think we both agree the point of the war is not benefit society by stopping an act that some feel is harmful? Well if that is true, the only other reason is to gain control and reap financial rewards which is what your first statement supports.

In that case, I would say that government learned the lessons of prohibition and instead of losing money trying to enforce the unenforceable, they are profiting from it. Profiting quite WELL in fact at multiple levels.

Re:This will come up

[Reziac]

Yes, the government has learned that lesson very well.

But We the People have forgotten OUR lesson, which was to never let the government acquire that much power in the first place.

Re:This will come up

[EGenius007]

No one said you were allowed to use facts.

Re:This will come up

[BitterOak]

Why not make it the law that all non-registered cellphones using the prinsons cell site coverage are automatically logged (phone details AND voice recorded..) - surely that would make the value of the phones almost nothing.

Wrong. Most prisoners couldn't care less if their calls are being monitored. The reason cell phones are valuable to prisoners and the reason the prison administration doesn't want them used is that use of the standard prison phone is a HUGE source of revenue for the prisons, as all calls are collect, calling card numbers (often all 800 numbers) are typically blocked, and the prison's carrier often charges more than 10 times standard rates. There are companies that cater especially to hospitals and prisons that charge exorbitant rates because they have a (literally) captive market. (Ever wonder why hospitals don't allow cell phones?) If you don't believe me, do a Google search for a company called Zero Point Dialing, and read some of the things that people have to say about them.

Re:This will come up

[NoobixCube]

MY solution is to get those dealers of drugs and prison-contraband in charge of our telcos and industries. At least they seem like they know what they're doing, and they're always interested in keeping their customers happy. Can't have your junkies getting their fix from another dealer now, can you?

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is why sarcasm is a stupid way to try to make a point.

Re:This will come up

[Stradivarius]

A fake cell would indeed be the smart approach. The gotcha, however, is to ensure that the fake cell tower does not trap calls from phones that are outside prison grounds. RF has a way of propagating without regard to property lines. Trapping an emergency call from outside the prison, for example, would not be acceptable.

One possible solution would be to team with the telcos, such that the fake cell would pass along calls to the real carriers, but once it had determined the location of the cell to be inside the prison grounds, would either terminate or record the transmission.

Re:This will come up

[stonewallred]

you don't threaten the guard. you pay the guard 90% of contraband in prisons is supplied by guards in the NCDOC an ounce of cheap pot is worth approximately 400 to 600 dollars.

Re:This will come up

[rtb61]

Gumby, what the fuck do you think punishment is, it is a rehabilitative technique used to modify behaviour, it is just been proven to be not all that effective. Carrot and the stick, what, don't tell me you have never heard of it.

Re:This will come up

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you even read the article you linked to? That $77K didn't come from the 'prison system.'

"Canteen money is raised by prisoner purchases of items such as toiletries and food, the proceeds of which go into a fund to benefit inmates"

So this money, is from prisoners, for prisoners. It allows for the DOC to get the prisoners comfort items with prisoner's money.

You would fail at arguing that a cell-phone honey-pot system is a comfort item for the prisoners.

Well actually the money goes into a fund for the inmates soley at the discretion of the correctional system. As an example, if the prisoners riot they can lose that "privilege".

Not all correctional facilities have this system, some use profits from canteen sales to offset other costs incurred, like transporting prisoners to and from courthouses, additional security, etc...

Re:This will come up

[shnull]

i think the problem lies at the core of most judicial systems : trying to solve problems by repression. Wouldn't you think that death penalty would have eradicated crime after the middle-ages ... if it actually worked ? You cannot solve social problems like poverty and stupidity by repressing and opressing people, and you will not make a criminal 'better' (weird concept in se) by locking him or her up for any amount of time. Beside ... sentenced for life is totally stupid ... i think (dont kill me hehe) it's more humane to kill someone right away than to lock them up with no chance of ever getting released. Not to mention the fact that you use valuable resources on individuals that will never contribute to society again... my 5 cents

dumb.

[zippthorne]

Wouldn't it make a *lot* more sense to just make a deal with the cell phone companies to fail to route non-emergency calls?

Re:dumb.

[SolidAltar]

Distilling your idea: Setup cell phone towers in prisons. The phones will connect to these towers since they are the strongest. Make these towers "dead" cells".

I guess as long as you set them up inside the prison blocks of solid concrete walls and steel it could work. *shrug*

Re:dumb.

[sumdumass]

Assuming that all Cell phone companies would agree to limiting calls like that, how do you suggest they distinguish between calls made at the prisons or whatever place verses calls made 200 feet from it or from people who otherwise have legitimate reasons to make a call?

I can see where spot jamming might be wanted. Something like a bomb scare where you wouldn't want the possibility of remote triggering to happen. Or maybe in a prison riot situation where contact to the outside could escalate the situation and empower the inmates. You also have problems with inmates conducting business inside the jails and putting people on the outside who may have witnessed against them or something at risk. I'm not sure if the later was is something that couldn't be dealt with in other ways though. Something like a ban on cell phones inside the prison in it's entirety and signal location detection devices that can track cell phones in non-authorized areas and then good old fashioned detective work.

Anyways, besides there being times where blocking the signals altogether might be with more advantages, I'm not sure how a cell company can distinguish who is inside the prison any better then this tech can distinguish who it effects outside the area. It will most likely be overly weak and functionally ineffective or contain a lot of false positives.

Re:dumb.

[MichaelSmith]

Distilling your idea: Setup cell phone towers in prisons. The phones will connect to these towers since they are the strongest. Make these towers "dead" cells".

Maybe thats how jammers work.

Re:dumb.

[Anonymous Coward]

My phone lets me view all towers and select which one I want to connect to. So trusting the phone to always go to the strongest power cell is putting the security in the inmate's hands.

Jammers would be expensive. You have to get complete coverage. Think adding WIFI to an entire prison with complete coverage. If you don't get the jamming everywhere, then they can find that corner where their cellphone works and bounce the signals to a tower.

Same thing with blocking the RF. Our local theaters do this to disable cell phones inside them. But getting complete blockage in a prison including windows and outside areas would be a huge task.

Both are doable with technology, but are they feasible? 800MHz requires different jamming/RF blocking material than does 1900MHz. I really like the idea of a honeypot tower. You would have to cover IDEN, CDMA, GMS, and any other technology a phone may use and all frequencies. You would have to limit the power so it wouldn't be used by the public. But drop a working tower in place and monitor the calls and messages just like they do the land lines.

....How about no?

[SolidAltar]

How can a local entity possibly have the technical expertise and know how to operate any kind of jamming equipment safely? There's a reason they are illegal for the public and even rarely used in the fed government: They are freaking dangerous and jarring to law-abiding citizens.

Am I wrong?

Re:....How about no?

[philspear]

What danger is there? Doesn't the jammer just mess with the frequencies used by cell phones?

Re:....How about no?

[SamsLembas]

Ordinary cell phones are the worst thing I can imagine being jammed. No cell phone = no 911 when people expect to have it.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're having a heartache.
You grab your cellphone and dial 911.
Airwaves are jammed.
You die.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

without the right protective head gear it can cause brain damage and/or mind control

Re:....How about no?

[antirelic]

Jamming cell phones at certain facilities should be allowed, such as in prisons, but using cell jamming technology on the block is chalked full of potential pit falls.

I've dont some consulting with law enforcement and the application of technology in tactical situations, and the bottom line greatest problem with jamming cell phones is that it is a dead ringer that something is about to happen. In a tactical situation, anything that gives the target a reason to raise suspicion, dramatically enhances their reaction time. Jamming equipment's real danger is that using it too early can ruin the element of surprise. Cell phones can be set to alarm when coverage suddenly dissapears.

Now what law enforcement really needs is the ability to emulate any carriers signal and perform intercept and interference, thus removing any form of potential early tip off (such as everyones cell phone suddenly going from 4 bars to 0 bars).

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever been to a hospital? They ask you to turn off your cellphones for a reason...

Re:....How about no?

[JAZ]

Yes. You are wrong.

What makes you think that the federal government is any more trustworthy than a local government?

Neither should have neither the authority nor the means to do anything that a private citizen can't do - they are only acting on our behalf, right?

Re:....How about no?

[thesupraman]

Rarely used?

You really need to catch up on how many localities jam GPS coverage, often for a few city blocks..

Hint: Not all poor GPS reception in cities is because of building geometry/coverage...

Its considered a 'security risk' on the theory that packed bombs could be GPS detonated in the right location (and not allowing for the fact that all they have to do it get some moron to push a button at the right time instead.)

Re:....How about no?

[troll8901]

'No need' for hospital mobile ban (March 2007).

On a related note, the mobile ban on airplanes were issued by FCC (mobile regulator), not FAA (aircraft safety).

Still, I understand that mobile phone interference can be pretty strong, especially around speakers and CRT monitors, and I don't want to know what happens if those disruptions happen near hospital equipment.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

First, there shouldn't be any old crappy equipment left that could still affected by cell signals.

Second, the doctors are on their cellphones all the time regardless of the signs.
I'm pretty sure if the concern was actually the health and welfare of the patients the doctors wouldn't be ignoring the rules.
So, there must be some other reason for the rules, I wonder what they are, don't you?

Re:....How about no?

[JAZ]

Yeah, I'd say you are wrong.

What makes you like that federal authorities are any more responsible or trustworthy than local?

No level of government should have the authority or the means to do anything to its citizens that the citizens can't or shouldn't be able to do as well. Governments are just people like you and I who are acting our our behalf. If I can't do it, the government shouldn't do it.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

GPS detonated? What are you high on?
If you're going to pull shit out of your ass, at least try to make it plausible.

Re:....How about no?

[OxyFrog]

Are you insane? Certifying food and drugs, investigating, judging and imprisoning people, collecting taxes, allocating wireless frequencies, controlling air traffic.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

And I suppose this happened all the time before we had cell phones.
You've got a better chance of being stuck down by lightning -- do you walk around in a Faraday cage?
Get a clue already.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hold a landline's handset near a CRT sometime.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you wrong? Yes you are wrong. There is nothing technically daunting about operating jamming equipment. You just flip a switch. I have a cellphone jammer that I picked up in Europe (works on US phones) and you just turn it on and phones within 20-30 feet are blocked. What's hard about that?

I have great fun cutting off obnoxious callers in restaurants. I don't LEAVE it on - that might block emergency calls, but I turn it on long enough to drop the jerk's call. The callers never even realize they've been blocked. They think they just have poor reception in the restaurant.

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

What danger is there? Doesn't the jammer just mess with the frequencies used by cell phones?

I would imagine that there would be quite a lot of radiation emitted from any jamming device.

Re:....How about no?

[philspear]

Yes, but I'm not in a prison, prisoners aren't supposed to have cell phones, and a guard should hear any prisoner who is.

I can understand if we were talking about cell phones in, say, major city areas, or out in the woods, but this is a very specific context. So I'll ask again, what danger is there?

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

Before cell phones we had landlines and payphones.

Payphones are already completely extinct in some places and people have been getting rid of their landlines for years.

Re:....How about no?

[daveime]

GPS detonated ? You'd have to be a pretty psychotic terrorist to transport a bomb that could be detonaed based on GPS coordinates.

Hell, half the time, my phone tells me I'm not in fact at home, but somewhere 27km south west of Burma.

Re:....How about no?

[juenger1701]

How can a local entity possibly have the technical expertise and know how to operate any kind of jamming equipment safely?

pre-configured total black-out system flip switch everything goes dark? it's not like the average cell/computer/internet/car user has any clue how the device actually works just turn it on and go

juenger1701

Re:....How about no?

[Anonymous Coward]

You really need to catch up on how many localities jam GPS coverage, often for a few city blocks.. Hint: Not all poor GPS reception in cities is because of building geometry/coverage...

I work with GPS all the time and do know about some jamming (all military) and have never ever heard *anything* about localities jamming GPS. I'd ask for a link, but we both know you can't provide one.

police

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really expect the police to understand something like this? These are the guys who got to where they are by brute force - not by understanding things.

Re:police

[Anonymous Coward]

Frink: Here is an ordinary square.
Wiggum: Whoa, whoa, slow down, egghead!

Re:police

[philspear]

Do you really expect the police to understand something like this? These are the guys who got to where they are by brute force - not by understanding things.

That's why they hire people who do understand these things to do it for them. Prison guards probably also don't understand the video monitoring systems they use, but that doesn't keep them from using them after they've been setup. It obviously doesn't take a genius to press a button to jam cell phone signals.

Re:police

[tibman]

The key to most offensive/defensive tech is simplicity to use. The user should be able to pick it up, read some short numbered instructions and perform the tasks needed to operate it with little thought required.

Suure...

[darkitecture]

The dumb public will be just fine with it riiight up until the first lawsuit from some person who's relative died because they couldn't dial 911.

Re:Suure...

[Anonymous Coward]

> some person who's relative die

Who's = Who is

"Some person [who is] relative die"

Does that make sense? No. It does not make sense.

Re:Suure...

[sgt_doom]

Outstanding point, Good Citizen darkitecture.

It reminds me of those white-collar workers within the Twin Towers on 9/11/01, who dailed 911, only to be told by some witless 911 operator or other to remain in their building which had just been struck by an airliner.

Reminded me of that airhead I once knew who had been hired to be a 911 in NYC, even though her husband was a fugitive from the law and had an outstanding warrent on him.

Unbeleivable, but to be believed during these present times of ultimate lawlessness and corruption...I speak of those banksters, Jamie Dimon, Hank "the Skank" Paulson, Cayne, Phil and Wendy Gramm, etc., etc., etc.

Re:Suure...

[philspear]

...from inside a prison, on a cell phone they're not supposed to have? Hmm...

Re:Suure...

[supernova_hq]

Ok, I'm actually destroying previous mods to post this, but I think your comment warrants it.

Jamming (any type, really), is a very inexact practice. It is almost impossible to effectively jam a single area without affecting the surrounding area. Contrary to popular belief, prisons are not all situated in the middle of a desert (though they probably should be). Many of them are quite close to towns, parks, camp sites,etc. I have personally been on group camping trips (200+ people) within 3 blocks of a prison. If someone had a emergency while driving past the prison on their way to the camp, they would not be able to call 911.

I just want to make sure that you understand that jamming a prison, and only that prison is actually a lot harder than you may think.

Re:Suure...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, from inside their home probably 10 miles from the prison if the history of the average human and their misuses of technology are any indication.

If we allow local authorities to do this then movie theatres will want it next, then restaurant owners, and we all know that doctors never go to restaurants or the movies.

Re:Suure...

[Trahald]

You are probably thinking of the difficulty of jamming an area of arbitrary shape/size, with antennas located in the centre.
Given that prisons have walls and (as far as I can tell from the movies) are always square, I don't see why a bunch of directional antennas mounted on the walls and facing inwards won't be reasonably effective.
Not perfect, but good enough to be practical. You'd probably need to be right at the prison wall to get any reception - the phone wouldn't work from the privacy of your cell.

Re:Suure...

[xenocide2]

Hell, they even make jail CITIES. Leavenworth is half jail, half military base, and half citizen residence. There's no way to jam Cell Block C without tanking nearby businesses and possibly the base itself.

Re:Suure...

[ion.simon.c]

Reminded me of that airhead I once knew who had been hired to be a 911 in NYC, even though her husband was a fugitive from the law and had an outstanding warrent on him.

What do crimes of the husband have to do with the behaviour of the wife?

Re:Suure...

[instarx]

I don't think that's right. True, you would have difficulty localizing the jamming signal if you use one big antenna, but several jammers located around the prison, each with maybe a 100-200 foot radius, would work fine with no effect on surrounding areas. You could even jam the cellblock areas and leave the administrative areas unblocked.

Re:Suure...

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are so willing to piss money down the drain how about turning the prison into a Faraday cage?

Re:Suure...

[Gordonjcp]

What you'd do is set up a picocell network inside the prison. The actual cells are about the size of a large wireless AP with a range of a few tens of metres. These are wired up to a controller that handles all the phone switching, cell handoff and so on, which could be set up to only allow calls from a small number of locally-registered phones (registered with that BSC).

"Ah but what about people outside? Good luck with that, you'll need it when I sue you because I couldn't phone an ambulance for my scraped knee!" I hear a certain subset of the /. readership say - well, that's *easy*. Set up picocells *outside* the prison too, sufficiently far away from the prison wall that reception is marginal. The phones will lock onto the strongest signal, which inside will be the "controlled" picocells, and outside will be "open" picocells.

Incidentally, this has already been discussed in the UK. Over here, no-one is allowed to have a mobile phone inside a prison at all, for any reason, so whether it works or not is irrelevant.

Re:Suure...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes cause obviously she made her husband do something illegal and run from the law. You are in the class of idiots that punish people for the actions of others that I despise so much.

Re:Suure...

[Anonymous Coward]

We had some roadside eqipment (message signs) very near to a prision which were connected via CDMA. The sites started behaving like a complete bastard and we wondered why, though we finally got the information out of the Telco that they had knowledge of jammers being installed (and were involved) they wouldn't help. We commissioned a radio engineer to take a look and he came back to us with an inconclusive result after taking some measurements at site.....

Re:Suure...

[pixr99]

Leavenworth is half jail, half military base, and half citizen residence.

But, that's three halves!

Re:Suure...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it really isn't.

See, because it's a prison we can assume some things. First assumption, because cell phones are illegal, they won't be used openly, therefore, not in the "yard".

Second assumption. Prisons are purpose built. AKAIK they don't renovate office buildings for prison use.

SO, with those assumptions, you can do a pretty good job of jamming a prison without using a jamming device of any kind.

Build a faraday cage around the cell blocks and all main buildings. This has the advantage that internal only wireless communications will still work. (such as radios) However, no cell phone will work inside the building.

It's not expensive, requires no active equipment, and has no moving parts. There is ZERO bleed over, and it's 100% effective.

This of course assumes you really wanted to "clean up" our prisons. Frankly, I doubt that is anyone's goal. It's a controlled environment, if they wanted to clean it up, they could.

Re:Suure...

[autocracy]

The "witless operator" followed the best procedure that they, or anybody, had ever devised for dealing with skyscapers on fire. These buildings, and their evacuation plans, never considered emptying the building in less than a few hours. Callers were told to stay put in the thought that emergency workers on scene would move people about as necessary to avoid panic and obstruction of those who had to get into the building.

Those "stupid bastards" who let a plane get flown into a building also followed the best procedure they'd been taught from decades of hijackings... just wait it out. Today, and we've seen it happen, you can't hijack a plane in the same way because the passengers will fight back. All of them. That said, they acted in the best way they could at the time.

Finally, whether the person hired as a 911 operator was an airhead or not, it's entirely inappropriate to correlate her husband's status as a fugitive to her life.

Re:Suure...

[xenocide2]

It's a very crowded place.

Re:Suure...

[Radical Moderate]

"If someone had a emergency while driving past the prison on their way to the camp, they would not be able to call 911

You'll be shocked to learn this, but until about 20 years ago nobody could call 911 while driving past a prison, or anywhere else! Yet civilization survived, for we came of hardy stock and relied upon our wits until we could find a payphone.

Now get off my lawn, punk!

Re:Suure...

[sgt_doom]

Wrong, she was only twenty years of age, had been married since the age of seventeen, and her character and mindset is as pertinent in marrying a "questionable type" as in possibly giving the wrong directives to future victims.....And under no circumstances should any police agency hire someone who's husband is a wanted man.....

Re:Suure...

[supernova_hq]

While I acknowledge your point, the problem is that back then people didn't expect to be able to, so they took other precautions. Back then they would carry proper equipment for first-aid and fixing a tire, now-a-days they have on-star and AAA, so very few people bother to bring anything other than a cell phone with them. Like it or not, cell phones have become a safety device and people are relying on them instead of older technologies.

Usually the removal of a service will bring you below the levels you were at before the service was developed.

easy solution..

[Adult film producer]

have one of the inmates smuggle in a jammer with the help of the warden/prison officials in exchange for access to the library or internet (if they have that sort of thing in prisons.) Not like a criminal will mind running a phone jammer while they're in rotting in prison, who cares.

Re:easy solution..

[SolidAltar]

> have one of the inmates smuggle in a jammer with the help of the warden/prison officials in exchange for access to the library or internet

Actually the private prisons have some internet access. They also use the prisoners as call center employees. I think 60 Minutes had a program on it.

Re:easy solution..

[SolidAltar]

About a dozen states â" Oregon, Arizona, California and Iowa, among others â" have call centers in state and federal prisons, underscoring a push to employ inmates in telemarketing jobs that might otherwise go to low-wage countries such as India and the Philippines. Arizona prisoners make business calls, as do inmates in Oklahoma. A call center for the DMV is run out of an all-female prison in Oregon. Other companies are keeping manufacturing jobs in the USA. More than 150 inmates in a Virginia federal prison build car parts for Delco Remy International. Previously, some of those jobs were overseas. At least 2,000 inmates nationwide work in call centers, and that number is rising as companies seek cheap labor without incurring the wrath of politicians and unions. At the same time, prison populations are ballooning, offering U.S. companies another way to slash costs.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2004-07-06-call-center_x.htm
And they work for $200 dollars. A month. I'm glad that the prisoners get to do something productive...but it feels kind of weird/prison-industrial complexish. =0

Re:easy solution..

[Zerth]

And Ohio is known for its trained GIS inmates.

Re:easy solution..

[Anonymous Coward]

No condition of slavery shall exist except upon... what was it again?

Was slavery abolished? Or did it just change form?
Is it acceptable as a punishment? For ALL law violations that result in jail time? What about the possibility of unjust laws designed to increase prison populations and thus the slave base? I seem to have nothing but questions lately. And no one seems to have reasonable answers.

Re:easy solution..

[SBrach]

Read the linked article. The jobs are coveted because sitting on a phone is a hell of a lot better than sitting in a jail cell all day. It's a win-win.

Re:easy solution..

[KingAlanI]

The 13th Amendment specifically allows involuntary servitude as part of the punishment for a crime of which one has been duly convicted.

"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Is conflict with Amendment 8 a problem here?

Re:easy solution..

[Anonymous Coward]

Like its really difficult to pinpoint signals from cell phones in prisons? I'm sure the FCC has no methods at their disposal for assisting with such an "impossible" task.

The real problem is allowing inmates to communicate with the outside world in the first place weather its secret messages in letters or cell conversations the result is the same.

Prison no-call blanket

[OzPeter]

I think that authorities are looking in the wrong direction with putting a jamming system as there will always be collateral damage of legitimate phones being blocked.

I think it would be better to circle a prison with micro-cells and intercept all cell phone transmissions, and only allow through nominated numbers. This could also have the effect of being able to triangulate the position of illegitimate phones when they are used.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[Gyga]

You'd only need 1 in order to route all calls, 3 (along the outer fence line) to locate the phones. Not including problems with different carriers. Of course anyone who lives by the prison will be pissed when their phone gets routed.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[Gyga]

Sorry half my post got lost (mea culpa).

It'd be better to just sit up dumb antennae (3) that detect the phone's signal (I believe their are only a couple frequencies used by cellphones) and locates it so the guards can go confiscate/discipline the innmate.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[vadim_t]

If you can triangulate, you can simply ignore anything outside the prison, and only check the authorization status for the phones inside it.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[Gyga]

How would the outside phones respond to being ignored by the towers if they are the strongest? It also takes time to triangulate (have to let the towers compare data/timing, calculate the distances from the three towers ...)

I would love to hear this "Please wait while we triangulate your position so we can determine whether or not to block your call and confiscate your phone."

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[vadim_t]

Isn't triangulation a very simple and quick thing? 3 towers ping the phone, report data to a central server. The ping time corresponds to the distance from the tower (assuming no data loss). Distance should be trivial to calculate. Draw a circle around each tower (with location precisely known) with a radius corresponding to the distance the phone's at, and the phone will be in the place where all 3 intersect.

I'd be surprised if the whole thing took more than a second.

Even in the case it for some reason takes a long time, phones talk to towers constantly, and not only while making a call (how could you receive calls otherwise?), often even while they seem to be off.

And why would a check be forced before allowing a call to go through? It seems much better to let the call go through, log it, then take the phone away, using the logs as a justification of bad behavior to add extra prison time.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[YesIAmAScript]

Agreed completely. It would be easy to implement what you say. Standard micro-cells won't do triangulation, they have to have special ones, but this would be possible, and if the use them in enough places, affordable.

Of course, this wouldn't be legal for them to do without FCC permission either. But at least it would work better.

I once stayed in a hotel where WiFi access was free in the lobby but nowhere else. My balcony had a view of the lobby, and I could pick up the lobby Wi-Fi bases from the balcony, but they would wold cut me off quickly when I was coming from outside the lobby.
Clearly this hotel could develop a system where access was denied based upon physical location, despite allowing access from nearby. So I think prisons could manage it.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[MichaelSmith]

If the phone is in a radio reflecting room (a jail cell?) the signal may bounce around enough to make it impossible to locate the phone to the nearest metre.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[Ironsides]

There's this thing called a directional antenna. You can use them to make sure the towers only pick up phones inside the prison.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[vadim_t]

You can probably still tell that it's somewhere on the inside and not the outside though. And narrow it down enough to only have to check a small area.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[RabidMoose]

Right, except that crooked guards are how the inmate got ahold of the phone in the first place. It comes down to a point where you've got to really trust your guards.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[supernova_hq]

...and anything on the other side of the prison!

Unless you plan on mounting said antenna 500 feet above the prison...

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[Ironsides]

Mount it on a 100 foot tall tower, angled downward, limiting the area covered to just that in the prison. Bing, bang, boom, only the prison is covered.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[Gyga]

1 crooked/threatened guard gives the inmate the phone. You would need a prison administration wide conspiracy to stop every guard from taking the phone. A bigger problem would be the guards barely making over minimal wage just not caring enough to enforce what they might seem as a pointless rule.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[MidnightBrewer]

And anybody who lives near the prison suddenly can't make cell phone calls. Again, regular citizens are inconvenienced by heavy-handed policing.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[Gyga]

My dumb antennae idea wouldn't stop phones calls, they would just listen for signals on the right frequency then locate them (not actual cell towers). If they originated inside the prison then the guards could grab them.

Re:Prison no-call blanket

[juenger1701]

in theory the only cell phones there ARE authorized and honestly if they can get a phone in and hide it do you really think it would be hard for them to discover an authorized number and hijack it whenever they want to make a call?

and how pissed would Senator McMoron be when he came for a tour before deciding on the budget requests and found out his phone isn't authorized

juenger1701

and dumber

[SuperKendall]

Wouldn't it make a *lot* more sense to just make a deal with the cell phone companies to fail to route non-emergency calls?

And block all phone use by guards, prison management, and visitors?

Real clever. Remember, the article is talking about spot blocks that would be done on a temporary basis, not a permanent ban on communications.

Re:and dumber

[Ironsides]

And block all phone use by guards, prison management, and visitors?

All CELLphone use. The guards, management and visitors would still have access to the land lines.

Re:and dumber

[PlusFiveTroll]

Right, because in your magical world jails have multiple fall over systems for comms that can't be knocked out by fire or other inmates. Unfortunately in the real world jails just aren't built that way. Hell, our local low risk jail doesn't have a sprinkler system and was damn lucky not to burn down.

http://tylerpaper.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090127/NEWS08/901270322

The problem with ideas like this jamming is they not only block criminals, who by definition are going to find a way to break the law as it is. It's going to block legitimate legal use of phones in the general area of the prison. Like the parking lot, where locally, citizens have used there cell phones to report escaping inmates. Our local high risk jail is in the middle of the downtown area... how do you not cause accidental jamming there?

Want a better idea? How about an accurate cell phone location finder... Whenever a cell is used in the jail its general location can be tracked down and the cell searched. This way the cells are tracked to the people that have them and investigated, and cells can still be used in emergencies.

Re:and dumber

[Spy der Mann]

Here in Mexico City criminals work inside prison. They get smuggled cellphones and do their threaten calls/intelligence operations. Safetey measures such as jamming cellphone signals inside prison have been proposed - unfortunately their implementation is at the local (corrupt) government's will.

Re:and dumber

[zippthorne]

911 is not the only emergency number that goes through. And it certainly isn't the only one that *could* go through. The cell companies, I'm sure, would be all too happy to accommodate the prisons' needs.

Certainly the prison control center and all of the local police would be on the allow list. Lawyers and other visitors could probably have their phones put on a temporary "don't block" list, as well.

The article's suggestion of jamming the cell phones' RF emissions would be far more limiting to guards and visitors.

Triangulation anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

c'mon now. you can't tell me that it's that difficult to triangulate the position of a transmitter on a known frequency.

this is just sheer laziness/incompetence on the part of prison officials

Uh-huh.

[Anonymous Coward]

I predict a lot of police-bashing Orwellian nonsense cropping up in response to this. Which would be 100% justified, but consider this:

How long before some anarchic nerd tired of his cell phone randomly not working "for his own protection" grabs a plan for a phone jammer from the internet, upscales it, deploys it to the top of a random tree, (or a bunch of random tress) and blames it on the police?

Cue torches, pitchforks, stammering halfhearted public denials at press conferences, etc...

Listen in,rather than shutting up the neighborhood

[D4C5CE]

Distilling your idea: Setup cell phone towers in prisons. The phones will connect to these towers since they are the strongest. Make these towers "dead" cells".

Better yet, eavesdrop on these!
Catch criminals on either end of the line talking crime most of the time...

Jamming, OTOH, in any location just keeps victims or witnesses of crime from reporting it or calling for help.

Re:Listen in,rather than shutting up the neighborh

[SolidAltar]

>>Distilling your idea: Setup cell phone towers in prisons. The phones will connect to these towers since they are the strongest. Make these towers "dead" cells".

>Better yet, eavesdrop on these!

You probably couldn't without a court order. Actually, that's a pretty interesting legal question. Any lawyers?

I want one too!

[phantomfive]

Seriously, a cell phone jammer is the greatest testing device I ever had, when I was working on mobile projects. Think about in theaters, or just to watch people's faces when their call drops every five minutes on the train. Sorry I sound sadistic, but everyone has that side of them they should let out once in a while.

Re:I want one too!

[icebraining]

Theaters should use a Faraday's cage (by covering the wall with a metal net) instead of jammers, as it would prevent close buildings from receive or making calls.

Re:I want one too!

[Zackbass]

The funny thing about this is that however many geeks there are that think it'd be fun to set up a jammer there's as many geeks out there who'd like nothing more than to track them down. I can see amateur radio operators having a field day (pun intended) hunting them down and helping the FCC hand out fines. No doubt crushing fines both because of the implications for emergency handling and because it's a strike against the telecoms. Tracking down cell phone jammers could become a major sport for radio operators if they become more common.

Re:I want one too!

[Compholio]

Yes, because no-one ever has emergency issues ... say, for example, a heart attack while at the theater.

Re:I want one too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting anonymously for obvious reasons...

I work with a non-profit organization that hosts an annual 1 day event where we are lent VHF radios for use during that day. Due to the fact that only 1 or 2 of us (out of 30) actually have a license, we are warned only to use certain channels and to leave if anyone else appears.

There is 1 channel in particular that we are NEVER to use. We were told that if someone heard us on that channel, the guys that use it would have our location in literally 5 minutes. I've spoken to HAM radio enthusiasts and trust me, he wasn't kidding...

Moral of the story, don't fuck with a HAM Radio Guy's Channel!!!

Re:I want one too!

[innocent_white_lamb]

That's when you tell the theatre management and they make the call to 911.

I own and operate a movie theatre. And I have actually had one occasion where an old lady had some kind of a seizure during a show. Her husband came out to ask me to call an ambulance for her. No cell phone required.

Re:I want one too!

[PachmanP]

And nobody ever had a heart attack before cellphones!!!1oneone

I mean shoot to hear some people, humanity was unable to function prior to the invention of the cell phone...

Re:I want one too!

[Compholio]

A cell phone is faster though, and sometimes that time counts. Do you really want to be on the other end of a lawsuit when someone blames you for "preventing" them from getting access to emergency services? Personally, I wouldn't do that - but I've run into plenty of people that will jump at any excuse to ruin someone for their own gain.

Re:I want one too!

[CastrTroy]

I should sue my university then, because there was many lecture halls that didn't get a signal. Particularly ones that were in the basements of buildings. Come to think of it, my cell phone doesn't work in the elevator, or basement of my apartment building either. Is there some kind of law that says you have to construct a building in such a way so that it doesn't block cellphone signals? I think a theatre could use it as a selling point. Don't jam the signals. Just construct the building in such a way as to block the signal. Would make for a much more pleasant movie viewing experience.

Re:I want one too!

[YXdr]

Yep, people had heart attacks before - and they died. Now we have paramedics, automated defibrillators, cell phones, and other tools. So let's try a few scenarios:

• Sorry that he died, but the ambulance's siren was bothering me so I sent them on a fake call. That's OK, people had heart attacks before paramedics.
• Sorry that he died, but the color of the AED cabinet bothered me so I hid it behind a curtain. That's OK, people had heart attacks before AEDs.
• Sorry that he died, but I didn't want my movie interrupted so I jammed the cell phone signal. That's OK, people had heart attacks before cell phones.

Yeah, that's a good argument ... </sarcasm>

Re:I want one too!

[innocent_white_lamb]

A cell phone is faster though, and sometimes that time counts.
 
I doubt that. Remember, this is a movie theatre we're talking about. You know -- dark room with loud sound? How do you expect the 911 operator to understand you without going out of the auditorium to talk to her? And once you're out, you can tell the manager to call an ambulance just as quickly as you can dial it yourself on your cell phone. And the wired phone connection will probably be more reliable. Plus the manager is in a position to shut the show down and request medical help from other patrons -- you can't put the movie on "pause" when you're sitting in the auditorium.

Re:I want one too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing that someone in the middle of an emergency will be able to calmly consider all of these factors and make the right choice every time ... oh wait.

The best approach would be to pursue all channels simultaneously - send somebody out to the lobby to get the theater management involved AND make a cell phone call. Many things can go wrong - assuming that any one way will work best is dangerous.

Re:I want one too!

[YXdr]

Liability can be an interesting thing. When you don't do anything unusual, you don't take any extra responsibility.

Let's say you're a theater manager that isn't blocking cell phone signals deliberately (like now, presumably) ... then somebody has an emergency. Their companion runs out to the lobby, but one of the high school kids is on break, and the other one is getting stuff from the supply closet. The companion runs up and down the halls for a couple of minutes, and finally finds someone. However, that person doesn't have a key to the office where the phone is, so that takes a radio call to the on-duty manager. Finally, after several minutes, help is summoned.

So far, this is bad luck, but not negligence. You never made any promises about how fast they can contact emergency services.

Now, let's suppose that you set up a cell phone blocker. Essentially, you are now saying that you MUST go through the staff to call 911 - you have no other options. You have now made an implicit promise.

With this change, the chain of events described above is a disaster ... the lawsuits would come fast and furious, and be very difficult to defend.

Re:I want one too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Prison on a train! They'll never manage to finish a phone call!

Re:Listen in,rather than shutting up the neighborh

[Gyga]

I was under the impression that prisons currently have the right to listen to phone calls/visits that don't involve lawyers, most courts would extend it to illegal phone calls.

No more uploading those police butality photos

[Culture20]

With this the police can seize cell phones with evidence before the data is uploaded?

Re:No more uploading those police butality photos

[QuantumG]

A transparent prison system.. ya, that'll happen.

Re:No more uploading those police butality photos

[kalirion]

Forget prison. They really just want to avoid more events like the BART shooting videos leaking out, when they should instead concentrate on ways to avoid more events like the BART shooting itself.

I'm angry with myself for reading this article

[jep77]

I missed a commercial!

Re:Listen in,rather than shutting up the neighborh

[SolidAltar]

Yes, but you would have to make 100% sure it was impossible for you to pick up other peoples calls. Then again, who's watching? Who would know?

Can you blame them?

[Trailer Trash]

Seriously, it's for the the public good. You don't want people to be able to upload the videos before their phones are stolen...

Re:Can you blame them?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent +1, Scary.

Whether that's the real motivation here or not, it's a virtual certainty that this power, if granted, would be abused in horrible ways.

Re:Can you blame them?

[wrmrxxx]

Micro SD cards are nice and small. I imagine that with the right kind of protection around one you could swallow it and let it pass through your digestive system. If you're brave enough to hang around and film the police, you're probably dedicated enough to try this.

Re:Can you blame them?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice job reading, it's good that you noticed that they're only looking to jam signals inside jails. I'm really glad you didn't overreact and get all hysterical. Good job.

Re:Can you blame them?

[Trailer Trash]

Right, because you can trust local law enforcement to never abuse a new power.

Re:Can you blame them?

[Anonymous Coward]

I love how under these youtube police beating videos there are still people arguing in the defense of what's right there in front of them and reviewable time and time again. How can you stick up for a guy who beats an unarmed man, drops their knee on the man's head a few times, then shoots them in the back? This video, for instance, where a guy is killed by a team-up of 4 cops that drop their weight on his back/neck while tazing him repeatedly, still has some defending the cops.

Faraday cage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't something like conductive paint or mesh/window films be more effective? Prevent RF from entering or leaving, and the problem is solved passively.

Re:Faraday cage?

[philspear]

Prisons are big, and I would guess that the materials and paint that would work would be pretty expensive.

There is also undoubtedly a lot of restrictions on what you can construct one out of to prevent prisoners from breaking pieces off and stabbing each other with them. Installation at least would be a major hassle, there's probably some type of security clearance construction workers working on active prisons have to have, and this would be a major job. And probably there would be at least one tinfoil hat lawsuit claiming the faraday cage was doing something with radiation and making prisoners sick.

I don't know, is it possible that if someone were to break a window that the cage would suddenly be useless?

This jammer could be turned on and off, giving you more flexibility, wheras a permanent cage couldn't. There are situations where you might want to allow the use of cell phones.

And, most importantly, guards do use radios and possibly other types of wireless communications. Is it possible to build a faraday cage that would ONLY block cell phone transmissions and not play havoc with the other communications?

All in all, I think this jammer would be safer, cheaper, and more effective than what you're suggesting. Just my non-expert opinion.

Re:Faraday cage?

[Gazoogleheimer]

It would work better if the prison was new rather than a retrofit (new, one could place grounded metal mesh inside the concrete)...a Faraday cage is an isolator in that it is a shield for RF, so that it would keep two-way radio traffic inside (and away from snoopers, if that is a wish) but one could also install a repeater to combat that if it is a problem...and additionally, I believe that a jammer has a propensity for a RF lawsuit (rather than a nonemitting device--a a tinfoil hat over the jail, per-se.) I'm not an expert either, though. As a ham radio operator, I do appreciate the laws against jamming, because such broadband devices often cause quite a bit of hash and spillover.

Re:Faraday cage?

[Darkness404]

That would work great until some prisoner got a guard in his cell and beat him up and the guard couldn't call for backup.

Re:Faraday cage?

[supernova_hq]

Ok, a few things to say here, so bear with me...

Prisons are big, and I would guess that the materials and paint that would work would be pretty expensive.

First of all, the summary doesn't say "prisons", they probably want to use this for SWAT situations.

I don't know, is it possible that if someone were to break a window that the cage would suddenly be useless?

My father does destructive building materials testing for a living. If there is one thing I can tell you, it's that most prisons (not all mind you), have some pretty freaking impressive windows. I've seen windows they had to hit 1000 times with 200 pound steel battering ram, and it didn't even SCRATCH it until hit number 20. Basically, if you are in prisons and want to break out, go for the wall, not the window...

This jammer could be turned on and off, giving you more flexibility, wheras a permanent cage couldn't. There are situations where you might want to allow the use of cell phones.

Again with the SWAT thing, if they want to disable phones inside a meth lab, I don't think the guys inside with AK's are going to simply sit still while you paint the house!

And, most importantly, guards do use radios and possibly other types of wireless communications. Is it possible to build a faraday cage that would ONLY block cell phone transmissions and not play havoc with the other communications?

All in all, I think this jammer would be safer, cheaper, and more effective than what you're suggesting. Just my non-expert opinion.

Sorry for the rant, half of these were specifically aimed at the GP, but I didn't want to make 2 posts. Consider half of them in favor of what you said :D

Re:Faraday cage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Though not technically a Faraday Cage there are materials that block a very specific set of frequencies. Also by meshing certain conductive and dielectric materials together in somewhat a mesh you can block a well defined set of frequencies. These materials could easily be built into the walls of a prison. Also note that breaking a window would most likely have a minimal effect on the jamming effects. Seriously you should not comment on something that you obviously know nothing.

Re:Faraday cage?

[philspear]

Again with the SWAT thing, if they want to disable phones inside a meth lab, I don't think the guys inside with AK's are going to simply sit still while you paint the house!

Gonna have to call foul here, although you did the disclaimer at the end, you extended my basic argument and made it sound like I was proposing something ridiculous there ! :-P

Re:Faraday cage?

[philspear]

Seriously you should not comment on something that you obviously know nothing.

I said "I don't know, is it possible that if someone were to break a window that the cage would suddenly be useless?" and "Is it possible to build a faraday cage that would ONLY block cell phone transmissions and not play havoc with the other communications?"

What part of my post sounded to you like I was stating a falsehood rather than asking for information?

Seriously you should not comment on anything until you learn some manners or bother with reading comprehension.

Re:Faraday cage?

[Dare nMc]

1) reading through the FCC site, clearly shows a Faraday cage that is created for the primary purpose of interfering with communications is jamming, and would be just as illegal.
2) you can't turn it on and off easily. Or change the shape easily.
    They could then install cell phone repeaters then get the control back. That might even make the Faraday cage legal.

Re:Faraday cage?

[Radical Moderate]

"Again with the SWAT thing, if they want to disable phones inside a meth lab, I don't think the guys inside with AK's are going to simply sit still while you paint the house!"

So if I set up a meth lab, the SWAT team will paint my house FOR FREE? What colors do they have, is there a website where I can look at some SWAT swatches?

Re:Faraday cage?

[supernova_hq]

Sorry, I didn't mean any dis-respect. In retrospect, I probably should have indicated which points I was arguing and which I was in favor with you on. I'll try to amend my overlook now.

1: against
2: against
3: in favor
4: in favor

Re:Faraday cage?

[supernova_hq]

Just got my samples, they seem to mostly be metallics...

And Here is the Problem in a Nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

Freedom for you, but not for me I guess. Parents with kids out on a date night that want to get a text message if something goes wrong. Professionals on call won't ever be able to see a movie or go to the theater.

You sir are part of the problem. Sorry for the harsh tone, but the hypocrisy over rights on the internet is just staggering.

Re:And Here is the Problem in a Nutshell

[peragrin]

While I happen to agree. That same kid is more likely testing and talking to their friends instead of their parents. They are the ones who talk in theaters.

However neither should be in theaters. As it would be a good place to take hostages or trap people.

Re:And Here is the Problem in a Nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

Professionals on call should be getting paid if they're so god-damned important, and skip the fucking movie.

Re:And Here is the Problem in a Nutshell

[Archon-X]

- I've never had cell phone reception in a Parisian movie theater [but that could be my phone I guess..]
- Ever been through US customs? I'm almost certain they jam in the immigration waiting rooms.

Heard this somewhere before

[Anonymous Coward]

http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/11/24/1354224

i'm all for it.

[timmarhy]

as long as the police must pay damages and make public apologies when ANYONE elses communications are disrupted

NYPD Wants to Jam Cell Phones During Terror Attack

[auric_dude]

As the attackers in Mumbai made use of phones and other mobile devices the NYPD wants top have the ability to cut mobile phone access as and when needed. As reported in Danger Room a short while ago http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/nypd-eyes-disru.html

Prisons

[mysidia]

They don't need the ability to jam cell phone signals to stop them from being used in prisons.

Prisons are controlled facilities that can be designed from the ground up to provide ways of stopping unauthorized signals.

For example, by lining cells with tin, special paint, and other materials that block certain radio frequencies.

This could be done to the entire building, and would be much more effective and safer than periodic localized jamming during an emergency.

They could even be designed so that the measures are just strong enough to prevent cell phones from working, but still allow personnel to carry radios and other equipment with higher power transmitters, that would not be significantly impacted.

Another possibility is to place monitoring apparatus in each cell, and if a prisoner uses a cell phone or other radiocommunication device, a detector will trigger an alarm identifying the specific area from which a cell phone has been used.

The method of detection still allows any cell phone that happens to be in a prison facility in event of a life-threatening emergency, as a means to summon aid.

Re:Prisons

[instarx]

If it is so easy to block cell phone signals then why can I get cell phone signals inside metal elevators inside skyscrapers in NYC?

Your post shows an alarming ignorance of physics, prison operations and inmate control, as well as realist cost constraint (put detectors in every cell, line all cells with tin... really, those are absurd ideas).

Re:This will come up.... The same way Butch did,

[davidsyes]

In Pulp Fiction... he hid that cell phone up his ass for TWO YEARS from the Vietcong.

Well, now the prisoners do have a little help from from the guard of the ring leaders, hehehe.

Butt, perhaps the public can fight back with:

http://entertainment.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/25/2322238

Destroying Undesired Surveillance To 0x0, Freq by Freq...

Micro Cells

[PPH]

Have prisons work a deal with the cellular network folks to set up some low power micro cells covering the prison facilities. All calls will be routed through the prison cell site. Legitimate users (staff) can have their phones 'whitelisted' to bypass the filtering and surveillance applications running on the base station.

Think of the intelligence the anti-gang units can accumulate by listening in on calls. Or even checking to see who is calling whom. Legitimate prisoner calls (from prison phones) are subject to monitoring, so this wouldn't be a big legal hurdle.

Re:Micro Cells

[scorp1us]

Actually, I'd do it the other way.
If you survey the numbers that are used in the prison that aren't staff, you can shut them down. Let everything else pass, what way when you're driving by your call still goes through.

Re:Micro Cells

[evilviper]

All calls will be routed through the prison cell site.

Prisoners have NOTHING BUT TIME. Through the slightest bit of intelligence, and sheer force of trial and error, SOMEBODY will figure out that holding a piece of aluminum foil over half the phone, while facing just the right distance, will work. And once one person figures it out, the rest will, quickly.

How often are you going to make changes, and how quickly will the prisoners adapt to them?

Re:Micro Cells

[PPH]

Make a micro cell out of four directional antennas, one in each corner, facing in. Face any way you want, you're not getting an outside line.

Re:Micro Cells

[evilviper]

Face any way you want, you're not getting an outside line.

Radio waves simply don't work that way.

The angle, your distance from the transmitter, propagation at a given frequency, etc., all will make for innumerable cases where all 4 can be blocked, with minimal skill, allowing outgoing communications.

And equally show-stopping, you're depending on the contraband cell phone, itself, to pick-up on, and always use the strongest signal it can find. That can actually be changed rather easily in software.

I call BS

[Anonymous Coward]

This is absolute horsesh*t. Holding the Mumbai incident up as a reason for jamming is wrong. Yes, the terrorists used them to increase the effectiveness of their attack. But people caught in that situation also used them to 1) direct the authorities to the attackers, and 2) save their own lives.

So they should piss off and stop messing with communications.

I don't understand

[QuantumG]

Is there a reason why inmates should not be allowed to have cell phones? I mean, they've got a legal right to phone privileges.

Prisons serve no purpose in the US. Sure, there's about a dozen different ideas why prisons exist, but none of these ideas are agreed upon and none of them are empirically measured to ensure prisons actually serve that purpose.

Re:I don't understand

[russotto]

Prisons serve no purpose in the US. Sure, there's about a dozen different ideas why prisons exist, but none of these ideas are agreed upon and none of them are empirically measured to ensure prisons actually serve that purpose.

Prisons keep convicts separate from the the rest of the population. They also, through their existence and the existence of prison rape, serve as a deterrent to crime, particularly the sort of white collar crime ordinary people might consider committing (embezzlement, fraud, DMCA violation).

Re:I don't understand

[FrostDust]

The main issue in that situation is that the prison can monitor all phone communications made by prisoners, except where prohibited by law, such as a layer speaking to his/her client. This helps prevent, for example, gang-related activities, or inmates communicating info to and from their cohorts on the outside.

With cell phones, prisons don't have the ability, or at least the legal right, to monitor calls that route to outside cell phone towers. As previously mentioned by other posters, deploying cell phone towers inside the prison would automatically catch all cell phone calls made from the grounds, and be less intrusive than a cell phone jammer (in case a guest or employee wants to make a call, for example). Also, if you don't specifically tell the prisoners that the calls they are making from forbidden cell phones are being monitored, in addition to their allowed land-line usage, you might gain access to some juicy info.

Re:I don't understand

[QuantumG]

Yes, thank you for using your awesome powers of ignorance and reading comprehension to make my point for me.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it is largely because people are running gangs, drug cartels, and white collar crime rings from inside prisons via their cell phones... and making a great deal of money doing it. You're not supposed to do that.

Re:I don't understand

[Wyatt Earp]

Where in the US or State constitutions are the legal rights to phone privileges spelled out?

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

If I ever had to spend any time in prison and was raped....I would most defiantly rape someone in the community I lived in for revenge.

Rape me I rape you. Terrorism 101

A faceless system rapes me I rape a faceless innocent in return.

Re:I don't understand

[instarx]

Is there a reason why inmates should not be allowed to have cell phones? I mean, they've got a legal right to phone privileges.

Because they use them in criminal activity. They could use them to coordinate activity in prison riots or to keep watch for guards. To coordinate prison breaks with outside accomplices, or to arrange for drugs to be smuggled into the prison (drop points, timing, etc). No, prisoners don't have the right to unlimited phone privileges.

Prisons serve no purpose in the US

In all the years I have been visiting slashdot, this is without a doubt the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say.

Re:I don't understand

[QuantumG]

In all the years I have been visiting slashdot, this is without a doubt the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say.

Well if it is so simple, Mr Smartypants, how about you tell the nice people the purpose of prisons in the US? Go on. No, not your personal opinion, we want the consensus view. We'll wait.

Re:I don't understand

[instarx]

Well if it is so simple, Mr Smartypants, how about you tell the nice people the purpose of prisons in the US? Go on. No, not your personal opinion, we want the consensus view. We'll wait.

What do you want - a White Paper?

I don't have to list the purpose of prisons to know that they serve a purpose. No rational human would ever say that prisons in the US serve no purpose. If you don't intuitively see that then you are beyond rational arguments.

With that said, I'm through feeding your tr0ll.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like you condone prison rape as a deterrent to crime.

A convict is a citizen. A citizen is not deserved of cruel and unusual punishment.

Get the _fuck_ out of my country or read the constiution and bill of rights and understand it.

Re:I don't understand

[paddymahoney]

Prisons keep convicts separate from the the rest of the population. They also, through their existence and the existence of prison rape, serve as a deterrent to crime, particularly the sort of white collar crime ordinary people might consider committing (embezzlement, fraud, DMCA violation).

The prison system is not completely without positive effect. However, I would argue that simple removal from society for a specified period of time results in the bulk of the benefit. However, there stands room for improvement. A prime example would be ending the practice of tacitly allowing prison rape. The laws of a country should not stop being enforced at the prison doorstep-I see little ethical difference between ignoring an impending rape in Central Park and the jail shower. There is a practical difference between the cost of ignoring either crime, but prison rape does have a net cost to society.

If we are going to allow prison rape, let's include it in our sentencing. You get x years of frequent non-consensual butt-sex. This way, we have made the deterrent value more apparent, which, by the logic of most prison rape defenders, would be a net gain.

Re:I don't understand

[QuantumG]

hehe, you don't know.

Americans are so funny.

Re:I don't understand

[Jens Egon]

God, all the way at the bottom of 223 (at this time) comments is the one defending the idea of freedom of speech!

And it's modded "troll".

Drink some coffee guys, wake up, and get your brains in gear.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Rape in minimum security prisons is very, very rare. I have never heard of a case in the 3.5 years I spent there. I would expect it would be less than in open society. So the white collar argument you pose is bogus.

this is an attempt to stop FREE WIRELESS

[Anonymous Coward]

plain and simple as hte police now work for hollywood so what do you epxect

Same point

[SuperKendall]

All CELLphone use. The guards, management and visitors would still have access to the land lines.

What good does that do? It wastes state money having to have more land lines to accommodate more people. It blocks things that are commonplace now like texting, that once people grow used to using is a real drawback to be without because people will expect it to work for you. It also doesn't help people that are nearby, but not in, the prison - like people driving by.

Again, it's simply a bad idea to lock down cell phone use around prisons on a permanent basis, though I am all for allowing them a way to jam signals on occasion. The frequencies you need to jam are limited and it's technically cheaper for a temporary shutdown than would be the erection and maintenance of whole cell phone towers for the prison.

Re:Same point

[plover]

First, cell phone tower antennas can be made highly directional, providing coverage over a small arc. It would be a Small Matter Of Engineering to design a series of antennas that would effectively cover a prison and not the surrounding area or even the parking lot.

Extending the idea of directionality further, cell towers today can already provide the location of the phones being used to within a few hundred yards. It should technically be possible to obtain the cooperation of the local cell providers to identify calls emanating from within a certain area, with NO additional investment of hardware. CALEA might even give them the authority to do so with no new statutes.

Next, this could be done selectively. Start with the Federal Supermax prisons. Then extend it to maximum security facilities, then to medium security if required.

Also note, the cell towers could be functional, yet still record conversations and ESNs and IMEI numbers. That would permit their use in emergencies or by visitors, all of whom could be notified of the monitoring by signs as they enter the prison. It would be important for lawyers to understand that client-attorney privilege would not exist over their cell phones within the vicinity of such a prison. Or perhaps they could go so far as to require registration of IMEI numbers by all visitors/employees and block calls from unidentified phones, or from phones where the visitor has left. Tracing the phones back to the guards or visitors who provide them would provide incentive to block their entry in the first place.

Yes, jamming would be cheaper, but could really cause problems in a true emergency.

Problems

[Darkness404]

The main problem with this is that a cell phone is not becoming more and more of a tool used to increase freedom of the press. For example, someone in a prison could quickly videotape abuse and send it to a news agency with a cell phone, thus increasing freedom, but this law is a serious attack on free press.

isn't it the law

[circletimessquare]

that all mail to prisoners is subject to inspection?

isn't it an easy legal jump to say that cellphone traffic is subject to inspection as well? if such a law isn't already in place, forgive my ignorance in this area

of course you can block all cellphone/ mail traffic, but usually these kinds of communications are fodder for good intelligence. criminals in prison will try to conceal their communications with codes and signals, but with enough quality analysis, that's even more good intelligence: what are criminal organization's secret signals and code words?

it's always better to monitor than it is to block. give criminals a false sense of security, let secrets slip form their lips, and pounce at the right time

Re:This will come up.... The same way Butch did,

[MichaelSmith]

In Pulp Fiction... he hid that cell phone up his ass for TWO YEARS from the Vietcong.

His watch.

Re:NYPD Wants to Jam Cell Phones During Terror Att

[thesupraman]

So, why not give them the right to get the cellular companies to disable cell towers?

Cell towers are also quite highly directional (they carry sets of antennas) so it can even be moderately selective.

If, of course we are talking a major terrorist level of activity.

My suspicion is however that it is more wanted for day-to-day police work - not quite the same thing though, is it..

They don't really need to jam.

[Tiger4]

I somewhat agree jamming is a possible solution. But the prison in particular really don't need to do it. Instead, they should install micro-, nano-, or pico- cells right inside the walls of the prison. The cells need to use every available mobile (CDMA, TDMA, GSM, etc.) technology, and provide absolute five bar coverage at every point inside the fence.

      A typical cell will connect to the strongest signal it can get. They only look for a backup cell when the primary signal starts to waiver, and it is difficult to alter this behavior. The prison owned, operated, and monitored cells will capture every phone inside the fence. From there, it should be relatively easy to track who is calling whom. Or just route all calls through the prison switchboard, like the good old days. If a real civilian gets caught, apologize and route them through.

News Flash: Talking Next

[msimm]

After that maybe body language and eye contact. At some point we can view any limitation as an impediment to doing our jobs but I think with civil rule it's important to remember that part of that impediment, the limits and checks and balances, are an equally important part of the job. Because unless I missed the memo, absolute power still corrupts (or gets misused eventually anyway).

Counter Tactics

[Nom du Keyboard]

So why can't you:

1: Locate the d@mn things? It's a radio transmitter every moment it's turned on.
2: Set up legal femtocells connected to black holes? The phones connect, but they never deliver.

Wireless signal detectors

[atmurray]

Cheaper than jamming, why not set up wireless signal detectors (like those used to detect the presence of WiFi networks) to allow the pin-pointing of illegally smuggled in devices. These would cost a fraction of cost of jamming devices, not have questionable legalities and would allow prosecution of those caught illegally using devices inside goal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just set up a Faraday cage around the prison. then it doesn't matter what they bring in and radios will still work inside the cage you just can't get anything in or out of it RF wise.

Bomb Lines

[redelm]

Given that law enforcement personnel are usually more concerned about their efficiency in enforcing laws they choose than in enforcing laws the public (including their prey) chooses, it is hardly surprising they want more power. Including shutting anyone else down and or shutting them up. I ddeply regret I have never seen LE enforce rights. The most they do is standby for violence.

A huge technical issue is disruption beyond the approved boundaries. Interference does not just stop at some building edge or property line. It will continue on into the sidewalk and street. And probably across it especially for people with low signal strength. Communications are all about S/Nm ratio. Jamming artificially increases Noise. So there are unintended casualties.

Two way street ...

[ScrewMaster]

Local Citizens Want To Jam Police Signals

There ... fixed it.

Music venues

[fishbowl]

Do classical music venues and I'm in. As for prisons, I don't have a dog in that fight.

Re:NYPD Wants to Jam Cell Phones During Terror Att

[enos]

I wonder how many people were saved because someone warned them of the danger by calling/texting them.

So wrong...

[sillivalley]

So wrong in so many ways --

(1) controlling cell signals in prisons or other controlled access facilities is a discrete issue. Faraday cages, micro-cells, and how about making everything pass through microwave fields strong enough to fry anything more complex than a flashlight?

(2) jamming cell phones on the fly to prevent what Schneier calls movie-plot threats. Talk to an Old Crow... In addition to all the issues brought up already, such as interfering with legitimate and probably life-saving communications, do these people actually believe that they can increase security by denying use of an infinitesimally small sliver of the RF spectrum? What about... 27 and 49 MHz for radio controlled gadgets? 300 for garage door openers? All the ham bands? Any other frequency someone cares to build a tx-rx pair for?

Oh, and if your jammer has an identifiable signature, guess what? Look at the history of anti-radiation missiles.

Okay, I'll just blanket the whole spectrum (fat chance)... Then it's a dead-man switch, set to trigger when the comm link goes down.

Another movie-plot deal.

Dumb.

Security Theatre for Idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

"As President Obama's motorcade rolled down Pennsylvania Avenue on Inauguration Day, federal authorities deployed a closely held law enforcement tool: equipment that can jam cellphones and other wireless devices to foil remote-controlled bombs, sources said."

Ok, so I'm a bad guy and suspect my cell phone IED detonator will be jammed. Probably sometime around when the target will be around. So I plant a few of them, set a delay of X +- random based on IED locations, and when the signal gets jammed start the timer....

If that can be thought of in a few seconds, there must be even better ways to use the jamming information as well.

Not to mention, all you need to do is create a timer that waits for cell jamming, then listens for an RF signal of a specific amplitude (or sequence thereof) and goes off then. It's nearly impossible to block a 50K watt RF blast that could be used as a signal.

Yeah, but what about victims calling 911?

[JSBiff]

The main problem I could see with cell jamming during a terrorist or similar criminal situation is that there is a small possibility that maybe, one of the victims could be trying to secretly call 911 (or whatever the local equivalent is) to try to give police information about the situation inside the building (or vehicle, etc).

Re:Yeah, but what about victims calling 911?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I don't think that's a small possibility, I think it is a certainty.

Every significant terrorist attack in recent memory has seen the affected people using their cell phones to get aid and give status, whether it was people hiding in hotel rooms in Mumbai, people stuck in the WTC on 9/11 or people in subway cars in bombings in the UK and Madrid.

Turning off cell phone coverage in a emergency is just plain stupid. The bad guys will expect it and have alternate means of communication like FRS radios, so only the good guys will suffer for it.

Re:Yeah, but what about victims calling 911?

[willnode]

The bad guys could get a case of these radios with 10 billion digital channels: http://www.trisquare.us/exrs.htm

Re:NYPD Wants to Jam Cell Phones During Terror Att

[Wyatt Earp]

Because then the police have to go through a corporation. In a tactical situation, like Mumbai, making the police/first responders go through the phone tree at a corporation like a cell phone company defeats the purpose of speeding things up.

Some practical problems

[coyote4til7]

Whether things are handled by jamming or by a micro-cell solution or some other way, there's one big problem. A lot of prisons are very close to major interstates or population centers. The main max in Texas is right next to I-35 a few hours south of Dallas, a road that carries so much traffic, you will rarely get up to the speedlimit. Colorado has a facility that, if memory serves is right off I-70.

Any solution that is sufficient to cut off all the prisoner cell phones is going to interfere with the use of cellphones nearby... like those people on that freeway next door.

The freeway next to I-35 in Texas has posted signs (no joke) warning people to not pick up hitch hikers. They existed long before four prisoners escaped a few years back. Two or three of those prisoners made it out of state. One made it about a thousand miles.

If they put in jammers, my suspicion is that the next prison break is going to involve prisoners walking up on to the freeway and using a rock to take out a windshield and a driver. I'm sure they'll say a few thanks for the cellphone jammers as they drive away and the other drivers realize they can't call 911...

FWIW, if you want to get between DFW and the other major metros in Texas, like Austin, you've got roughly two choices: I-35 and a 350-400 plod along two lane Farm to Market roads frequented by farm tractors. Talk about a looong day.

And in the news...

[cyn1c77]

The government continues to expand its overarching control under the guise of public safety.

Easy to block cell phones -costly, but easy

[Anonymous Coward]

Military agencies and certain law enforcement agencies use a paint that stops RF energy. It can be combined with a transparent window film and make any building radio tight. Internal communications work very well (better) due to lack of interference. Also internal cell phones that use WIFI can work fine for allowed external calls using a standard access control security system to allow only guards to get past the firewall.
Big corporations use it for conference rooms to stop industrial espionage.
Check our Radio Frequency Blocking.
Does not affect anybody nearby.

Interesting corner case

[KingAlanI]

If you try to employ a whitelist, would you have the problem of inmates stealing guards' phones?

Interesting concept this article is, but a real boondoggle

Reason? Kickbacks and bribery from telecoms.

[OpenGLFan]

For those of you who are at least in their 30s and lived in a University dorm, you may remember that phone service was expensive. You either used a calling card number or you paid the phone company big bucks per minute for your long-distance calls. Cell phones effectively killed that racket in universities, but I hear that the same racket persists in prison, with the added difficulty in obtaining a calling card while in jail.

Yet another "isolated incident" of law enforcement driven by money instead of justice. Nothing new here folks.

Re:bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

While the prison industry is big business, you're mistaken about guards making insane amounts of money - they make an average wage in exchange for daily exposure to serious bodily harm / death. The prison system IS not a failure if it is a commercially viable enterprise, and it definitely IS profitable, that is the reason why there are privately run prisons in the US....Texas Dept of Criminal Justice prisons build all of their facilities, manufacture most needed supplies, grow the food & maintain facilities with convict labour which is ( unlike in the federal prison system ) unpaid. As long as the US remains ( in the words of Hunter S.Thompson) " an extremely Calvinist society" prisons will continue to be needed and continue to be profitable.

as to the " ...The majority of prisoners are non-violent offenders, mostly drug offenses that should be treated as a medical issue rather than a criminal one..." you don't have to have worked in the prison system OR spent time in it to smell bullshit. Majority of property & violent crime is drug related. Either crackheads stealing/robbing for their next rock OR dealers scrapping for turf. Legitimizing the status quo ( decriminalizing crack sales or posession for example) won't stop hungry crackheads from breaking into your car to swipe your change/ robbing you for the handfull of jingly in your pocket, unless of course you wish to decriminalize theft & robbery as well? Perhaps this is what our president meant by "...the change we need..."

Re:Reason? Kickbacks and bribery from telecoms.

[Vegeta99]

Part of the reason the jail's phone system is so expensive is that they really do have to monitor and trace everyone's call. Letting a gang leader have an open phone line while locked up just means we're feeding and housing him while he keeps running his business.

Put them on the terrorist watch list for asking...

[macinit]

And this doesn't meet the terrorism criteria how? Authorities given the right to indiscriminately deprive the communications of law abiding citizens when they feel like it? And then on the citizen front, we can get put on terrorist watch lists for simply discussing the Constitution in public. We're bombarded by foreign enemies from the media when the facts are, to any intelligent person, that the real terrorist threat to this nation has been coming from within it's own government. Foreign terrorists cannot take away your rights, only your government can and are ever more doing. We the people have been effectively legislated out of our own government without a vote.

Re:This will come up.... The same way Butch did,

[davidsyes]

Well, get with the times, hehhe.. a Nokia will slip up into an ass easier than a Timex. It may take a likin', ummm lickin' and keep on tickin', but nothin' beats a slip-in-phone with a vibrator... Might make an interesting phone movie/short...

yeh, Butch had a watch up his ass, and i blew it (flubbed my line, that is) by not making a better transition from watch to phone....

Good thing I can't delete that last post...

[philspear]

Oh, for some reason I thought it was just jails... Sorry... now it does make sense.

Re:Listen in,rather than shutting up the neighborh

[Anonymous Coward]

That's no longer true - in cases involving terrorism suspects, the government actively monitors lawyer contacts.

Prisons don't work.

[MRe_nl]

Recently I purchased a movie on DVD which I thought would furnish proof that man's onanistic urge could outlive mortality. Instead I found I had succumbed to another "input error" and had purchased an anodyne prison yarn entitled Dead Man Walking.

Nonetheless, this confluence of a Death Row movie and the ineducable stupidity of a large section of our population made me think afresh about prison policy, that neglected but vital aspect of government. It's no secret that our prisons are full to bursting. Even the tactic of leaving the prison gates open at night has failed to deal with the overcrowding. And yet we incarcerate barely 0.1 per cent of our population, whereas in the United States they lock up 10 times as many.

Old Labourites say this statistic merely proves the Yanks are vindictive crypto-fascists. I challenge this. Our tiny prison population is a reflection of the incompetence of our police forces, who manage to solve a mind-boggling 3 per cent of all crime not carried out in front of a passing Deputy Commissioner.

Yet we all know that there are as many bad people in this country as in any other. A simple rule of thumb I employ is as follows: approximately 90 per cent of the population get on with their lives and don't bother anyone; about 9 per cent are low-level nuisances - long-term unemployed, drunks, druggies, socialists, unmarried mothers and Radio Four interviewers. These five million or so irritants need firm handling by the authorities if they aren't to disrupt society. Tagging, curfews and community service should be sufficient to control them.

Then we come to the 0.9 per cent who comprise the underclass. Half a million people who, frankly, would be worth more if they were rendered down into their constituent elements: persistent minor offenders, animal right activists, friends of George Galloway, Asbo-boys, and women who don't shave under their arms. For these rejects, only prison will do, as I repeatedly tell Tony.

they couldn't use conductive paint?

[Uzik2]

It's hard to get cell calls in normal places I can't see why some paint with a little carbon dust mixed in shouldn't make a perfectly workable faraday cage.

Common practice

[entt]

This is common practice in Turkey. In Istanbul near the prisons, it is hard to speak via mobile phones. They can not stop mobiles, so they jam the signal.

Re:bullshit

[Ihmhi]

OR dealers scrapping for turf.

There's no turf to scrap for when drugs are legal.

Legal = probably cheaper, and if not more likely to be safe.

If a dime bag costs $15 legit and $10 from a dealer, where would you buy it? I'd buy it from the safer place.

Whitelist to the rescue!

[GameboyRMH]

They could whitelist the guards' phones on the tracking cells so that they won't be logged. Then the prisoners would have to use the guards' phones, and having a call to a gang leader on your cell phone record is a lot harder to shrug off than "not noticing" a phone being passed to an inmate from a visitor. I think the increased responsibility guards would face would deter them from lending out their phones to convicts.

Of course guards will have to ask for their phones to be whitelisted, but that's still far better privacy than a lot of people have on their computers in their offices.

Bad idea!

[GameboyRMH]

Prisoners will communicate in (very complicated and secure, believe it or not) code with their "business associates" on the outside, it will lead to a big increase in gang violence.

Also the PCs, even if you give them a locked-down Knoppix-like read-only OS, will rarely be used for anything good. The vast majority of prisoners would be too stupid or destructive to use the computer for anything constructive. The best-case scenario you could get with a computer is that it would only be used for looking at porn, running scams etc. In practice it would also be used as a bludgeon and as the best source of shank-building material they could ever dream of. Heck the smart ones might even figure out how to make deadly stun guns with the capacitors in the PSUs!

Re:Bad idea!

[lysergic.acid]

Prisoners will communicate in (very complicated and secure, believe it or not) code with their "business associates" on the outside, it will lead to a big increase in gang violence.

gang members already communicate in code with other gang members on the outside. so I really don't see how giving prisoners access to computers would lead to a huge spike in gang violence. honestly, do you think that the Mexican Mafia is suddenly going to turn to AOL Instant Messenger or MySpace for their secret communications? I just don't see gang members on the outside going out and buying computers all of a sudden and sitting in front of computer screens in their motel rooms or slum apartments to e-mail or chat with their prison buddies.

secondly, having a computer in one's cell would be a privilege. you obviously wouldn't give them to prisoners with known gang affiliations. in many prisons there are specific wings and cell blocks dedicated to gang dropouts. this kind of privilege could be reserved for such inmates who demonstrate good behavior, and it would be taken away as soon as they violate any of the rules.

i don't know how much contact you've had with gang members and ex-cons personally, but i can tell you that your perception of them is neither grounded in reality nor self-consistent. first, you claim that inmates are too clever to have their internet communications controlled (and are smart enough to employ advanced steganography), then you simultaneously claim that they would be too stupid to use the computers for anything constructive but might build stun guns out of the capacitors and PSU.

ignoring the fact that most prisons already allow inmates to own TVs and other electronics without problem (as i've already stated), not all prisoners sit in their cells making shanks and devising ways to hurt people. if all (or even most) inmates really are unreformable as you claim, then we should just lock them up and throw away the key--and stop calling our prisons "correctional facilities."

Re:Bad idea!

[GameboyRMH]

gang members already communicate in code with other gang members on the outside. so I really don't see how giving prisoners access to computers would lead to a huge spike in gang violence.

I was really talking about the phones, but a computer would apply as well - do you think that taking their communications from "tightly controlled" to "available 24/7" would not lead to an increase in gang activity? If you're trying to run a business from a prison cell an internet-connected computer would be the greatest productivity booster ever.

secondly, having a computer in one's cell would be a privilege. you obviously wouldn't give them to prisoners with known gang affiliations. in many prisons there are specific wings and cell blocks dedicated to gang dropouts. this kind of privilege could be reserved for such inmates who demonstrate good behavior, and it would be taken away as soon as they violate any of the rules.

Fair enough, that's different from putting them in every prison cell.

first, you claim that inmates are too clever to have their internet communications controlled (and are smart enough to employ advanced steganography), then you simultaneously claim that they would be too stupid to use the computers for anything constructive but might build stun guns out of the capacitors and PSU.

I wasn't talking about any advanced steganography, I was talking about the same encoded text they use on balled up pieces of paper, so that even if their activity is monitored their communications remain secure. And I didn't say they're all stupid or all geniuses, I said that some are stupid and some are intelligent, but the vast majority are destructive. Am I wrong? If they are given as a privilege this would work around the issue of most of them falling into stupid/destructive hands though.

if all (or even most) inmates really are unreformable as you claim, then we should just lock them up and throw away the key--and stop calling our prisons "correctional facilities."

I never hinted at what fraction might be unreformable, maybe that fraction is low, but you will get a very high incidence of stupid and/or destructive behavior, that's generally how they got into prison. Ideally a prison should *only* contain people who are destructive enough to pose a real threat to society.

My responce

[Nonillion]

FUCK YOU! You Barney Fifes don't need to violate FCC rules in the name of "the law"! Why don't you guys do what I pay you for, you are Public Servants, you are here to Serve and Protect. Not to violate even more rules that us Jane and Joe citizens are expected to follow like everyone else. Besides, it's a two way street pal!

Re:My responce

[stewbacca]

You Barney Fifes don't need to violate FCC rules in the name of "the law"!

So change the FCC regulation to allow it? But then again, you'd have nobody to yell FUCK YOU at, I suppose.

Re:NYPD Wants to Jam Cell Phones During Terror Att

[ivan256]

Great plan! Next invention? The bomb that goes off when the attached cell phone loses signal...

Say what?

[spamking]

And naturally, as criminals, they would never ever do anything they were not allowed to do.

That's why gun laws have stopped gun violence.

Stopped gun violence where exactly?

Re:Say what?

[Shakrai]

Perhaps the sarcasm in my post wasn't sufficiently telegraphed?

Re:Say what?

[Andy Somnifac]

Wait, telegraphed? I thought we were talking about telephones. I need to know what century we're in before I continue this conversation.

Re:Say what?

[networkBoy]

smoke signals. As the prison burns to the ground, you can use a really big blanket to make smoke signals.

I don't get it

[BenEnglishAtHome]

What point are you trying to make with that first video?

A bunch of Critical Mass riders block a car, refuse to move, deliberately put their bikes in a position to get them run over, start yelling at the driver that there's a person under the van (prompting the wife, mortified, to get out of the van and check, placing herself in even more danger from these wack-os), and then proceed to get all dramatic about it. Why would the police want to stop video of that? I'd think they'd love to get good documentation of the way those Critical Mass a-holes were criminally detaining that old couple and, without provocation, vandalizing the vehicle.

Damn, I wish Critical Mass would come to Houston. We got enough assault rifles behind the seats and big-ass tube bumpers on the front of our trucks to teach those little bitches a permanent lesson in peaceful co-existence.

Now, I think I'll take a little time out to listen for the whooshing sounds as that last paragraph sails over some heads.

Re:Reason? Kickbacks and bribery from telecoms.

[stewbacca]

What about the whole part where going to prison means being deprived of things that people NOT in prison get to enjoy? Or is that too inhumane?

Jam the right targets

[stewbacca]

I have no problem with local police jamming cell signals, as long as they are jamming all the idiots yapping on their phones while driving.

Re:Put them on the terrorist watch list for asking

[Anonymous Coward]

Word.

We should do this on our highways too!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiots with their cellphones and their conversations, that think the world revolves around them!

Re:Reason? Kickbacks and bribery from telecoms.

[Anonymous Coward]

When used to call my wife a lot from the military base I was stationed at. I would call collect and give the last 4 digits of the pay phone number as my name. She would call back.

Totally possible!

[GameboyRMH]

The same way your car's nav system tells you to turn right as you approach an intersection, A bomb could be set to go boom when it approaches a building...and you can get GPS receivers off the shelf now that have a resolution of as little as 3ft and are very accurate. Depending on the height of the building, having a package go off (or start its countdown timer) as it passes through a doorway wouldn't be terribly difficult. It would only be a matter of making sure the electronics have a good battery life (especially if it's shipping with OOPS) and can handle being knocked around, which could possibly cause it to lose its signal temporarily or wiggle a connector loose (although any connections should be JB-welded in place, and you can use a PDA with integrated GPS which can handle the logic and trigger the bomb via the serial port to minimize the number of components). A GPS sensitive enough to work indoors would be best, since it would likely lose its signal when it's buried in the metal delivery van and would be indoors before it would stand still long enough to get a chance to get a satlock again.

(The post above is purely for technical purposes. I am not in any way paranoid over terrorism and the scenario is unlikely given the level of technical knowledge required.)

BRB got a knock at the door...

Argument must necessarily be flawed

[LrdDimwit]

Exactly the same logic can be used trivially to prove some rather silly things. For example: The accessibility of murder and other violence in jail kind of shines a spotlight on the stupidity of the war on the mob.

Your point isn't necessarily wrong, but the argument does not help. Society has attempted to crack down on many many things over its long history. Many times successfully, often not. Many times legitimately, often not. An attack on the effectiveness of a campaign does not always imply the campaign was a stupid idea; indeed, 100% effectiveness is basically impossible no matter what you're trying to control.

To simply point out "see, failures exist! The policy isn't foolproof!" adds nothing. This was already known. The real debate is whether the activity is even legitimate at all and whether the price to implement the policy is worth it. The crackdown on slavery, for example, was long, bloody, and virtually ineffectual for a very long time. So was the crackdown on alcohol. One was a stupid idea, the other wasn't.

Re:This will come up.... The same way Butch did,

[Anonymous Coward]

At the risk of being pedantic, it was Butch's father who hid the watch up his ass, and then when he died, Christopher Walken's character hid it in his ass so that he could eventually give the ass-watch to Butch.