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Steps Toward a Universal Flu Vaccine
Plasmoid writes "The NYTimes is reporting that scientists have starting developing what could turn out to be a 'universal' flu vaccine. They created antibody proteins that can neutralize different strains of the influenza virus, including the deadly H5N1 bird flu, the virus behind the 1918 epidemic, and common seasonal strains. These new antibodies target part of the virus that is shared between different strains and thus appear to be broadly effective. However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution. An article on nature.com describes the work further."
Influenza
In humans, common symptoms of the disease are chills, fever, pharyngitis, muscle pains, severe headache, coughing, weakness, and general discomfort.[1] In more serious cases, influenza causes pneumonia, which can be fatal, particularly in young children and the elderly. Although it is often confused with the common cold, influenza is a much more severe disease and is caused by a different type of virus.[2] Influenza can produce nausea and vomiting, especially in children,[1] but these symptoms are more characteristic of the unrelated gastroenteritis, which is sometimes called "stomach flu" or "24-hour flu".[3]
We geeks often neglect our health, especially during the cold and flu season (Which is a prime time to stay inside, Frag noobs, write badass scripts, Watch Babylon 5, etc). Make sure you take all the necessary precautions to keep your wetware virus-free!
Playing gods again, are we? Hope this one does not turn me into a viscious human animal much like those freaky infected characters from "I Am Legend". Did not look like those guys were having much fun with life. And all they wanted is a shot of a universal cancer vaccine.
some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution.
Experts in what? Theology?
So either evolution is perfect and has already done it or it can't be done?
Riiiight. Evolution != god.
There was a talk about this at TED. Turns out the same ideas of shared virus parts can be used to identify and diagnose, or even as this article suggests, cure various diseases very quickly.
"However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution. "
Using this logic we shouldn't have come up with vaccines for smallpox, polio or rabies either.
love is just extroverted narcissism
I found this quote rather comical.
"If you have one or two that cover the vast majority of isolates, I wouldn't be ashamed to call that a universal vaccine."
So, universal now means "vast majority." So I guess, to really refer to universal, we'll have to say "actually universal." Hm.
However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution.
No offence, I love the human body and all, but there are LOTS of things it has 'been unable to come up with', including the much needed ability to render stupid people unconscious by concentrating hard.
Being part of a system of evolution is not a panacea for disease; quite the opposite. Almost every positive thing you can say about our resistance to disease comes directly or indirectly off the back of people who didn't have a particular type of resistance 'taking one for the team', so to speak. There's nothing wrong with hunting for cures that DON'T involve the mass extinctions of the genetically unfortunate. There'll be plenty of time for it to all work itself out.
Obviously, we should not be able to fly, as the human body has not come up with a solution to that either. Only humans create artificial rivers and lakes just so they can shit in them. Let me know when the bears come up with toilets, as last I checked, their still shitting in the woods. Stupid bears. We should shoot them. Hah hah, opposable thumbs! Bang Bang!
This is my sig.
Well if the human body hasn't figured it out by itself, then what chance do we have.
I don't why we invented armour, our skin should have learned how to protect itself against sharp stabby knives by now.
Slashdotters really really need to get over the obsession with evolution, there is no such thing. How many fuckin' times do I have to tell you pimply kids that? If it was real, you wouldn't have pimples...
> some experts question whether a universal
> vaccine of this kind is even possible, since
> the human body has been unable to come up with
> an antibody solution
First, the researchers don't claim a universal anti-virus, simply a broad spectrum one.
Those nay-saying, have no lab data, those doing the research do. Its effective in animal studies and human studies will soon begin.
The human body does not search for the best antibody, or the most universal one. It simply throws stuff out there and sees what sticks (figuratively and literally).
This approach goes after an area on the virus that is hard to reach because of its structure.
Quoting TFA:
" The flu virus uses the lollipop-shaped hemagglutinin spike to invade nose and lung cells. There are 16 known types of spikes, H1 through H16.
The spikeâ(TM)s tip mutates constantly, which is why flu shots have to be reformulated each year. But the team found a way to expose the spikeâ(TM)s neck, which apparently does not mutate, and picked antibodies that clamped onto it. "
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution. Is it just me, or does this statement seriously underestimate the millions and millions of years necessary (during which the majority of the population must die from the flu the entire time) necessary for evolution to come up with an "antibody solution"?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
This is how Skysnot gets started.
However, some experts question whether a universal vaccine of this kind is even possible, since the human body has been unable to come up with an antibody solution.
Firstly adding to your point (and according to the theory,) evolution is only "perfect" over an infinite time frame. The fact that there is no universal antibody could mean one of two things: the time frame was too short or there's a reason why the human body doesn't want a universal solution, and I can think of at least one big one.
The human body has thousands of known symbiotic relationships and potentially thousands or millions of unknown ones. Most of these are bacterium (or more rarely viruses) that do something to help the human body. The digestive tract has literally trillions of non-human cells within it. There is even an organ who's use (which was previously unknown) is to store 'good' bacteria when the body is fighting other harmful invaders. I'm speaking of course of the appendix - the one organ which literally oozes symbiosis. The human body might not 'want' a universal solution as those which are adapted to allow the potential for additional symbiotic relationships before ejecting them have a better chance at thriving as every tiny advantage helps.
I'm not saying this is a step in the wrong direction and I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing because the vast majority if not all viruses of this strain are harmful to humans at this point, but to say that evolution couldn't come up with a solution therefore there isn't one makes a ton of huge assumptions which probably aren't all valid.
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
What the fuck is wrong with slashdot?
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Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
What the fuck is wrong with slashdot?
I can't get the main page to appear, the RSS feed works...which is how I got here.
The main page is just a header and a sea of white nothing.
I do have NoScript and ABP disabled, it made no difference.
I was thinking earlier today "I may now be unemployed and unable to afford my housing - but at least I can't think of a way the economy could get much worse." Then I thought "Unless further defaults on ARMs through the summer is followed by a global flu pandemic in the winter of 2009-2010." Not only would the economy grind to a halt as many wouldn't want to risk infection by heading off to work, it could also bankrupt the healthcare industry through millions needing coverage for vaccines and lengthy hospitalizations. Now that would be a perfect storm worthy of Murphy.
So is this gonna turn out to be like the Krippin Virus where we become vampire mutants?
there are LOTS of things it has 'been unable to come up with', including the much needed ability to render stupid people unconscious by concentrating hard.
Well, no- I mean- that's just because- the thing is- it's easy to explain if you'd hang on a- okay, what I'm really trying to say is
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
First, let me say: Many thanks for that link!!! :-)
Second, let me say: OMGZ!1!11! and a resounding WTF??!?!?
Third: I for one, welcome our beer drinking, cigar smoking, mortar-round toting Army Bear overlords!!
That may be the most amazing thing I have read in quite a while.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
The reason the 1918 flu had high mortality among young adults is because sometimes when the body is presented with a new and particularly severe infection, there occurs a "cytokine storm", a positive feedback loop of the immune system which can pretty much destroy you. A healthy immune system becomes a liability.
Man, I really hope scientists are working on a vaccine for that. That alone would advance humanity much further than curing cancer.
I'm going to simply respond to your rambling, seemingly paranoid post with a single [Citation Needed].
Paranoid conspiracy theories require some verifiable proof, especially when they directly contradict peer-reviewed and verified science so conspicuously.
I can't understand why the tin foil hat people think vaccines are a scam to make insane amounts of cash by the pharmaceuticals industry.
The reality is the last thing the industry wants is a cure for a disease. What they want is a drug that treats without curing, and has to be taken indefinitely. Something like Prozac, statin drugs, Viagra - that's where the money is.
Explain Smallpox, Polio, Hepatitis B, HPV, Chicken Pox, Measles, Mumps, and Rubella. It is not futile. You do it, or you risk dying from easily communicable diseases.
You're an idiot parroting "Vaccines are poison!" crap, who told you this, Jenny McCarthy?
Predjudice? No, that requires knowing nothing about you and making a rash judgment. You've plainly proved you're ignorant and little better than a wishful-thinking conspiracy theorist and deserve every flame fired against your dangerous spreading of mis-information.
I was fortunate enough to be working with general practitioners during the bird flu scare, and between high school biology and the catch-up courses being run for the doctors about bird flu at the time I have a decent working knowledge of the subject.
In brief: please provide links for your paranoid delusions, I'd enjoy the read.
The flu variant believed to be responsible for the 1918 pandemic killed by causing a cytokine storm (wiki it yourself) - the host immune system overreacts and kills the host. Of course this is most effective against otherwise healthy people with a strong immune system that can really kick some ass... against their own body.
Yes it is. It's widely studied. All flu viruses are of avian origin and most of them can't even infect pigs and humans, the secondary carriers. The ones that can can be very deadly against humans because while human-specific diseases can't be deadly enough to kill their hosts often or the virus won't have anywhere to live, avian flu can persist as a minor annoyance in bird populations then leap out to massacre some humans from time to time.
You suggest that the pharmaceutical industry has duped the entire medical profession into believing in a disease that doesn't even exist, and will inject the entire population with a potentially lethal disease causing agent, causing massive global economic collapse simply because they can get paid for every unit they produce? No comment.
.evom ton seod gis eht
You are a moron, and should be quarantined on an island with all the other people who, in the face of decades of research findings to the contrary, know goddamned well that vaccines work and have led to a healthier populace overall.
You'd probably thrive for generations, mistaking this for a vindication of your dunderheaded beliefs--until someone from civilized society visited, sneezed on you, and watched you all succumb in a year.
Finally... a profitable busines??? Since when??? Vaccines have a tremendously short shelf life and most go unused. That's money down the drain. In the smallpox terror scare a few years back, the reason it was scary was that the companies couldn't really afford to make the vaccine anymore because business on it had dropped off to nothing. There wasn't any available because it had been so effective in eradicating the target disease. Public money had to be used to get some back out there.
There is nothing that drives me crazier than anti-vaccine nutjobs like you. You don't deserve to live in civilized society.
Man, I really hope scientists are working on a vaccine for that. That alone would advance humanity much further than curing cancer.
Yeah, and if we could keep stupid people out of the picture, we'd probably have a universal cancer cure in record time anyway.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
People. This, number one, is not a vaccine. It is just a new possibility for a new direction for vaccine researchers to explore. There are YEARS of work that needs to go into this in order to even become a vaccine candidate. To top it off, if you actually read the paper, you'll realize there are several factors, as in any vaccine research, that may make this discovery ineffective.
New discoveries are good, but to extrapolate it as they did, combined with publishing a letter where they essentially say "we found something but we have almost no clue what" shows researchers naive to the field of vaccine research. You better beleive that article will have some strong letters in reply, so keep your eye on the journal.
This is the second relatively invariant influenza target antigen identified now. The previous one being the M2 protein, which has given rise to great hopes of a universal flu vaccine.
As for which one seems more promising, I think we'll definitely see results from the M2-based work first. It has a substantial head start (I think there are some candidates in Phase II testing already), and it doesn't look like there are any fundamental obstacles popping up yet.
Yeah, like those EVIL drug companies will NEVER let this out. Just like BIG OIL, they will bury this INNOVATION with the 100 MPG carburetor designs.
I was going for the tin-foil hat look, but I don't think I have enough caps... no pun intended.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
But there is considerable selection pressure to stop us dying of flu. Less so the development of flight
First off, we have to assume that a mutation leading to a certain flu free human is even possible. I'm not a bio guy by any stretch of the imagination but I would be willing to bet that there are some transformations from one gene to another that are essentially impossible.
Secondly, is there really considerable selection pressure to keep us from dying of the flu? That's really the question. It might actually be that dying from the flu could have been a positive force for humanity in some weird way. Like, if you have too many kids for a local eco-system to support - the flu comes along. If you have too many old people, the flu comes along. If a group of humans didn't have the flu, they might well succumb under their own weight. Those humans, as a whole, then breed anew and spread and conquer those other humans who are all weak and starving.
So, far from flu resistance evolving, I'd say, if anything, it might well be that we have been selected to die from the flu.
This is my sig.
First off, we have to assume that a mutation leading to a certain flu free human is even possible. I'm not a bio guy by any stretch of the imagination but I would be willing to bet that there are some transformations from one gene to another that are essentially impossible.
Secondly, is there really considerable selection pressure to keep us from dying of the flu? That's really the question. It might actually be that dying from the flu could have been a positive force for humanity in some weird way. Like, if you have too many kids for a local eco-system to support - the flu comes along. If you have too many old people, the flu comes along. If a group of humans didn't have the flu, they might well succumb under their own weight. Those humans, as a whole, then breed anew and spread and conquer those other humans who are all weak and starving.
So, far from flu resistance evolving, I'd say, I doubt that a resistance to the flu could evolve, and, even if it could, then it might well be that we have been selected to die from the flu.
This is my sig.
http://www.marytocco.com/marytoccobio.htm
When you go to the doc's, they rub your arm with alcohol so the puncture wound from the needle doesn't get infected, right? Alcohol kills off all the common, nasty germs that make you sick; like the Flu.
So if your blood alcohol level is raised, then the Flu virus can't possibly survive!
Let's all go out and have a shot of tequila with lime (citrus fruit with Vitamin C), share some laughs (laughter is the best medicine), and then go home and sleep off the alcohol (rest cures just about everything).
Who's with me?
This mad science is getting out of hand!
I'm going to simply respond to your rambling, seemingly paranoid post with a single [Citation Needed].
I for one believe the GP of this when they say that they cannot afford the housing they live in. No citation needed.
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
It really seems odd to me that any stories dealing with genetics, vaccines, or medicine in general get the "iamlegend" tag. This one for example: no viruses are being artificially made, nor is there much gene splicing going on. The equivalent would be be like someone tagging "BASH 4.0 Released" as "terminator2000" or "skynet."
Too many mod points out there if things like this are getting to the top.
So why the fsck are you telling us? It says to contact the server administrator. Do you think they are reading every thread to see your complaint?
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
Besides the "clothing is optional" benefit, working from home greatly limits exposure to contagions.
Although going to the grocery store and seeing the checkout clerk wipe her nose is hard to avoid.
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
That's not about evolution though, it's about every person alive today who's had the flu (or weaker forms thereof) many times during their lives, but still has no antibodies for the "general" version.
Or do I mean the common cold? I got confused...
weinersmith
This is a nice science article, but mainstream media has made this "breakthrough" into something it is not, not by a long shot.
First, it has nothing to do with vaccines. Vaccines are when you are injected with a protein that causes YOU to generate antibodies to that protein. This article is about injecting you with antibodies, which will be cleared from your body in about three days, and the authors guess that it will cost about $1000 a dose (yes, that means upwards of $2000 a week, and two or more shots at the doctor's office per week!)
Second, while the stalk of the HA protein is a great substrate for antibodies, it is not normally exposed and most antibodies won't be able to see it. Sure, they loaded up some mice with unreasonably high amounts of antibodies and saw some protection to select strains of influenza, but there is a long way to see if this will work against many (never all) strains of influenza, or even if it will work at all in humans! Again, good basic research, but its not a breakthrough, its a good start, a good idea, which is exactly what public science is all about. Sadly, they know very little about commercial drug production and are cashing in on FUD!
If you want to more about flu research go to a site like http://www.pandemicflu.gov/ . There are several new drugs, which hold much more promise and are much closer to being on the market then this!
Disclaimer: I help do research on one of those other drugs...
"DENIAL"-How an optimist keeps from becoming a pessimist- \ \
... or not attack the beneficial ones for long enough to cause serious long term effects. Kind of like the viral equivalent of antibiotics, right?
Can you say "superbug?"
Let's check back in 50 years.....
I don't therefore I'm not.
Very well stated. Bravo
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
The influenza subtype responsible for the Spanish flu in 1918 was H1N1, not H5N1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1N1
Unfortunately, childhood vaccines have been positively linked with parental stupidity.
A couple of years ago, simular research was done by belgian researchers. Claiming to use a flaw in the virusses design to stop reproduction of virusses. We are now a couple of years later and there is no more news about this supercure. As others have indicated, in current crisis situation this would cause the downfall of the pharmaceutical giants and that is something goverments cannot allow at this moment.
ACtully, it alreaddy exists. I heard on Fox news that some scientists in ZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz
What would the mutation that causes pimples have done that would make you be seceded by through evolution?
Evolution has two major parts, one of which is more important than the other. And you are ignoring the MORE IMPORTANT one.
First being survival, second being reproduction. Its easy to survive, it is much harder to reproduce and even more harder to have kids, and still harder to have a lot of kids.
Success scale for survival goes from 0 to 1. Success scale for reproduction goes from 0 to, well, infinity. This means more room that success gets rewarded (in a genetic sense).
All the basic psychological traits of human minds are shaped by reproduction requirements, and even some of the body traits, lets call them sexual ornaments. Some organs that are a plus in a reproduction race are a handicap in a survival sense. This can be predicted mathematically because all design comes in random chunks, and is then filtered by two different selecting methods.
Some traits will stay because they are good for survival, some will stay because they help attract the opposite sex.
Also, since sexual selection is a process where some genes get to chose other genes, it is self-referential, prone to positive feedback loops and exponential runaway situations, and works MUCH FASTER than survival filter. We are talking as fast as 5000-10000 years for humans, perhaps faster.
It is also open to gaming, where some genes try to sneak in by faking some symptoms for sexually desirable traits, without actually having those traits. This then causes those selecting parts to evolve to try to detect those fakers, and the arms race begins. Usually this filters out sexual attributes that are easy to fake, and selects for those that are not, and then arms race forces it to the levels where it becomes an actual survival handicap. Thus we get deer antlers and peacock tails.
In human, all this process went on the inside, and shapes human mind. The human mind is basically a sexually selected attractive trait that is also used for selecting other minds, and filtering real traits from faked ones.
Thus saying "I'm very rich" is always taken suspiciously by females. What is actually happening is a process of faking a sexually desirable trait, and response of trying to filter fakers.
This can also explain pimples. Pimples can be used by the opposite sex as an indicator of how ones immune system is effective against infections. Ah, I thought I could explained it easily but I've had it enough, and perhaps someday I'll give more thought to evolution of pimples but not now. Ah. :)
Every time I try to knock stupid people unconscious by concentrating hard, I seem to black out. I Just Can't Understand WHY!
Basing your paranoia around something that's factually false is probably not a good idea.
The bird flu is a variant of the influenza virus.
BSE is a piron, a virus-like protein that has no nucleic material.
Now, both of these things spread more easily due to high-density farming techniques, but they're still a virus and a piron, respectively.
Fortunately for you, and unfortunately for everyone else, vaccinating most of the population is 'good enough' to eradicate a disease. With the vast majority vaccinated, the disease stops spreading.
Where this breaks down is when enough people start thinking like you do, and thus the number of vaccinated people drops. We're seeing the return of measles to the US due to paranoia about vaccines. And trust me, measles is far, far, far worse than the possible side effects of vaccines.
HIV DNA has been sequenced for almost a quarter century. Yet a workable vaccine in humans hasn't succeeded yet, despite decades of attempts. Like the flu and common cold there are dozens of variants. Nature is more devious than we can imagine.
Go here and get some good info on vaccines and why they aren't dangerous:
http://quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/48f9db861d8a83f764792aa4b77990f8-29.html
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"Vaccinating against intoxication is pointless. Actually, vaccination in general is futile. The people originally developing vaccination admitted this themselves in their late days but nobody listened to them once it became a profitable business. Ever wondered why you had such a hellish week after one or the other vaccination? How about where your allergy came from? Ever read the ingredients of a vaccine? Thought so. Never mind."
300 children out of every 1000 died from diseases. In the US it is not uncommon for an infectious disease doctor to never see a child dying froma childhood disease.
It happens, but is very rare.
Not only do I know the ingredients in vaccines, I know the chemistry. So your going to have to do more the some vague off the cuff remark. have YOUR read the ingredients from a vaccines? or are you just running off about something you heard somewhere? I already know you don't know jack about chemistry.
Hellish week? try diphtheria then come back and talk about a hellish week..oh wait, you'll be dead.
Believe you? you have made no logic statement to discuss.
There has been measles outbreak in Europe, btw.
The freaking measles for crying out loud. Why? becasue of the anti vaccination people, specifically the doctor you LIED and committed FRAUD in his study.
You don't want to get vaccinated? Fine, but you shouldn't be allowed to leave you house and interact within 10 meters of any other human.
The moment you do, you risk everybody.
here is a place to start to educate your self about vaccines:
http://quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/48f9db861d8a83f764792aa4b77990f8-29.html
This is not prejudice, it is solid science, with decades of studies to back it up. Not only that, there is the real world and the almost non existent childhood death in countries that vaccinate.
No need to flame you, we have facts, and you ahve made up shit you can't proves. What you don't have is an education in chemistry.
you are either:
Ignorant beyond belief
or
you like to watch children suffer and die.
Ok, a flame, but come one you are so stupid how can someone resist?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You and your facts...
well done.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
How about some real data to look at?
http://www.whale.to/a/bystrianyk3.html
The funny thing is that you don't even need both stages. Once you vaccinate the 95% of the population than can accept the vaccine without health risks the other 5% benefit from herd immunity.
That's why I'm in favor of fixing up the smallpox vaccine and doing mass vaccinations if the risk of a terrorist attack is considered serious. That vaccine has all kinds of safety problems - it could cause major harm if you just roll it out universally.
Instead you just vaccinate the 90% of the population that can tolerate it. You do this in a very orderly manner with the primary doctor of each person involved. You don't hit every person in a city in a week - you spread it out. Then the few people with complications can go to the hospital and be cared for. The people who can't tolerate it can benefit from herd immunity and not risk the side effects, and in an actual terrorist attack they can stay indoors and let their vaccinated neighbors/friends/family care for them for a week or two until the risk is past.
The alternative is that FEMA stockpiles a boatload of doses. Then when an attack occurs it is a mad rush to distribute them where needed. Everybody just lines up while a guy with an autoinjector runs down the line jabbing people. Some people get missed. Some people get AIDS/hepatitis/whatever from bad procedures. Others get the shot when they shouldn't be dosed at all and get all kinds of complications. People with complications report to the hospital which is now dealing with a smallpox pandemic as well as vaccine side-effects and nobody gets adequate care.
Vaccines are the one form of health care that just about every expert agrees gives the biggest bang for the buck in terms of disease prevention. I'm amazed at some of the roadblocks that get tossed up against its proper use.
The challenge here is to develop a vaccine that causes the body to produce antibodies that it would NOT produce in response to an infection. This vaccine must cause the body to produce antibodies that are more general than those it would produce for any specific flu, but still specific enough that they won't attack anything beneficial.
The "vaccine" from the article is not actually a vaccine. It is a medication. A vaccine acts as you described, causing the body to produce antibodies to pathogens. However, what the article describes is actually an antibody produced outside the body, and when administered should not typically invoke an immune response. There are already many drugs like this on the market.
These drugs often have severe side effects are are not first-line therapy so the clinical use of this (in the extremely unlikely event that it makes it through clinical trials and is approved) will be very small, possibly reserved for the immunocompromised (AIDS patients, bone-marrow transplant patiets etc).
[I'm in pharmacy school.]
I don't care about influenza cure. First of all, it's mostly harmless, in constrast to black plague or HIV.
There are also dozens of similar unpleasant infections, causing milder but similar symptoms as the flu that last for only 3-5 days, but those are extremely unpleasant for the respiratory system. Unfortunately they are also much more widespread because people don't care about keeping out of crowded places or staying at home.
You deserve to die of smallpox. Nothing else would be suitable enough punishment for stupidity that absolute.
Just don't come me with the bookshelf opinion. Use that thing in your head.
That's pretty darn rich coming from someone who reads a nutjob website and instantly believes every single word on it to be true, without bothering to apply one critical tought.
Hint: we have drawn our our conclusions from the actual data. You have not. You're blindly following quacks.