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Ballmer Scorns Apple As a $500 Logo

Posted by timothy on from the upholding-shareholder-value dept.

theodp writes "Speaking at a conference in NYC, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer did his best to refan the flames of the Mac vs. PC rivalry: 'Now I think the tide has really turned back the other direction [against Apple],' Ballmer said. 'The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment — same piece of hardware — paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be.'"

61 of 1,147 comments (clear)

  1. It seems ironic... by pushing-robot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment — same piece of hardware — paying $500 more to get a logo on it?

    ...that the head of Microsoft would apparently put no value on software.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    1. Re:It seems ironic... by djmurdoch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The $130 doesn't get you an OS that will run on commodity hardware. First you have to pay the monopoly fee, i.e. the first copy costs $630, the upgrades are $130.

    2. Re:It seems ironic... by Penguin+Follower · · Score: 4, Informative

      hmmm. See, when I shopped for my Mac Pro back in 2007 and compared it to an equivalently equipped Dell Precision workstation, the Dell was actually $100 more. Most people are not comparing like hardware when they are looking at a Mac. I can't say for the iMacs if it holds true because I've never wanted an all in one computer, and so I've never bothered to do a comparison....

    3. Re:It seems ironic... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, there are times where Apples will actually be cheaper, but they update their product line less frequently than Dell. So sometimes there is a huge difference in price ( with apple's more expensive), and some times it goes the other ea slightly. I think when I bought my mac book it was $150 more than the equivalent Dell. But I could also have gone with a less powerful machine and saved more with Dell. That, I think is what most people think of. Apple's product line up has less offerings than dell, so Dell has some price points that Apple doesn't compete at.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    4. Re:It seems ironic... by jcr · · Score: 5, Funny

      Except we know the value of the software, Apple sells it seperately for $130, or about what an OEM edition of Vista Business adds to a typical Dell.

      We can therefore conclude that installing Windows on a PC degrades its value by $370. Good to know.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    5. Re:It seems ironic... by jimfrost · · Score: 5, Insightful
      There is truth to this, but generally speaking I've found Apple's product quality -- likelihood of failing, durability of construction -- to be superior to Dell. Sometimes very, very superior. It's no accident that I buy Apple laptops instead of Dells these days, that's experience both ways. Even if the Apple is more expensive based on the spec sheet it certainly is not in terms of expected life and ongoing maintenance costs. Dell laptops were typically failing inside of two years; Apples pull five before I retire them (with two typical service issues usually in the first year), and seven to failure. When put in that perspective Apple is very inexpensive. I note that I have had similar experiences with Thinkpads, which are priced pretty much the same as Apple's stuff. Makes you think.

      Even if the hardware is equal the software surely is not. The $130 price point quoted above is for an upgrade -- something Microsoft charges anywhere from $90 to $160 for on the desktop, depending on version. But that doesn't tell the whole story as Macs include a lot more software in-the-box, enough to make it useful without buying anything else. Once I get done buying antivirus ($50) and back-up ($80) software for my Windows PC I'm already eating well into the so-called Apple Tax ... and that's before we talk about maintenance costs. Where Microsoft puts in applications that are clearly checkbox quality, Apple's bundled applications are often superb -- similar to things I have to pay hundreds of dollars for on Windows. All this adds up to significant value in the software package.

      But none of this is or was a primary motivator for me. No, it was maintenance costs that drove me to try Apple again in 2001. Windows installations were requiring significant maintenance every 3 months, like clockwork, and total failures requiring from-scratch rebuilds were near universal within 18 months. I had hoped that XP would improve things, and it did from the standpoint of corrupted disks, but malware costs with XP have been out of sight.

      OS X has been a dream come true in terms of maintenance -- there are glitches, but so far none have taken more than 90 minutes to solve, most take only a couple of minutes, and the sum total of such glitches over eight years I can count on my fingers (though it does take both hands). I have never had to rebuild a Mac from scratch! I am still amazed at that fact. Time savings in a single year completely swamp any extra money I pay to Apple for hardware.

      Then there are the little things. Let's say that fifth year comes around and I buy a new laptop to replace one that's really old-in-the-tooth. Bringing the new one on-line requires connecting it to the old one during set-up and waiting for data to transfer between them. When you get done the new one is a newer, shinier version of the old one -- all applications and documents are transferred neat-as-you-please. The first time I did this my jaw dropped; the process typically takes many hours with Windows because it's effectively impossible to transfer application installations due to the registry.

      It's things like that which will keep me buying Macs. Real thought and effort goes into making them work well long-term. Much longer hardware life coupled with much lower maintenance costs equals huge savings in my book.

      YMMV, and probably does. I find Windows indispensable in some areas and still have plenty of Windows boxes around. Still, the Macs are workhorses that do their jobs and let me spend my time doing what I bought the computer for rather than just trying to keep it running. I'll take more of that, thanks.

      Maybe Win7 will be an improvement. Vista sure wasn't, what a disappointment.

      --
      jim frost
      jimf@frostbytes.com
    6. Re:It seems ironic... by kimvette · · Score: 5, Informative

      The $130 doesn't get you an OS that will run on commodity hardware.

      Let me introduce you to the hacintosh. Macs have been nothing more than commodity PCs in a proprietary case since they switched to the x86/x64 platform.

      In the case of notebooks, it is also true the Macbook chassis is vastly superior to practically any "PC" notebook vendor. However I am going Dell Precision rather than Macbook Pro for my next notebook for two reasons: 1. Dell offers WUXGA resolution and 2) Dell offers a three-button "mouse" (trackpointer and touchpad), and one minor reason (a "powerslice" external battery which will allow the PC to run a full 10-12 hours). The price I negotiated Dell down to is about the same as a Macbook Pro 15 but I'll have a better optical drive, a magnesium alloy case (as opposed to aluminum), more RAM, higher resolution (with RGB-LED backlight!), faster CPU, faster video chipset, backlit keyboard, and no retarded one-button mouse (touchpad/trackpointer). Oh, and accidental damage coverage and three-year warranty with on-site service (although no "tech" will touch my notebook - I will insist on receiving the part only in the event that I need service).

      I'd love to have gone with a Macbook even though it's commodity hardware - the Macbook is lighter and they're pretty, but on the other hand, I'm not retarded. I want two or three mouse buttons. Also, I'm not blind. I want high resolution because I design graphics, and now I am getting into embroidery and clothing design for a hobby. I need something better than 1440x900. Heck, my old (circa-1991) Latitude did 1680x1050, and my older Thinkpad had a three-button mouse. Jobs, please enter the new millennium. Most Mac users are at least somewhat computer-literate, certainly more capable than most Windows users, and can deal with a multi-button mouse/touchpad/trackpointer.

      Oh, and Ballmer? My real work will be done in Linux. Windows will be only for games and embroidery design (I need to convert from .svg and .ai to .sew), and if I can get the embroidery software to talk to the machine while running under crossover office, so much the better - I may not need Windows at all. :D

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    7. Re:It seems ironic... by Slumdog · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm sure he's looking at it from the view of, "Every computer in the world should be running Windows!"

      I'd say he may be subconsciously thinking of Linux...Same hardware + linux = cheaper than with OS/X or Windows

      --
      FreeBSD bounties
    8. Re:It seems ironic... by M4N14C · · Score: 4, Informative

      and no retarded one-button mouse (touchpad/trackpointer)

      The trackpad is a multitouch device. If you place two fingers down and click its a right click. If you place two fingers down and drag its a scroll. Take a look at your notebooks buttons after two years. There's probably a hole worn in to the left button while the others look brand spankin new. I hated the one button crap until I figured that out. Now I have a macbook. I guess I'm tarded now.

    9. Re:It seems ironic... by flyingsquid · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I find it very telling that Steve Ballmer won't let his kids use an iPod, and Bill Gates won't let Melinda use an iPhone. Instead of saying, "hm, maybe I should build a product my own family members would want to use" they're trying to push their own family members into using Microsoft products. They're using their position to force a market to accept a Microsoft product that it doesn't really want... only in this case it's their position as a husband and father, and the "market" is their own family.

      I'm not saying that denying your family iPods and iPhones constitutes some kind of spousal abuse or child abuse. But I am saying that this attitude is counterproductive as a corporate leader. Your family and your market is telling you something about the kind of products they enjoy using and will pay money for. Instead of listening, and producing products that emulate the best qualities of Apple's products, you're trying to tell your family and your customers that no, you don't really want the things you think you want. You actually want what we're giving you.

    10. Re:It seems ironic... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Funny

      I agree. It's offensive of Ballmer to say that that Apple sells a $500 logo.

      It's worth at least $750-800.

      My loaded MacBook Pro was $4200. That's at least 3 grand in status that I can lord over the sad sacks in my Caribou Coffee Shop.

      And worth every penny in my improved self-image and ability to strike up conversations with cute girls with eyebrow piercings. I didn't get that kind of play with my Lenovo, I'll tell you that.

      It doesn't go anywhere past "Aren't Apples great? They have an almost "holistic" approach to computer design, don't you think?" but still...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re:It seems ironic... by Jeremi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      About the one-button mouse: Apple's "Mighty Mouse," introduced in 2005, has no visible button, but can be configured in software to have 1, 2 or 3 buttons.

      Alas, it never really worked right in 2-button mode. Specifically, if you have your index finger resting on the left side of the mouse, and press the right side of the mouse, it registers as a left-click rather than a right click. So you have to remember to lift your finger(s) off the left side of the mouse before right clicking every time. It drove me batty.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    12. Re:It seems ironic... by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Macs have been nothing more than commodity PCs in a proprietary case since they switched to the x86/x64 platform.

      Yup, a commodity PC with bluetooth std, low power components, display brightness controlled by OS, working power management, extremely quiet, ah I give up, most of you lack the ability to differentiate any two computers from any manufacturer, and will never try.

      Look, coffee makers and toasters are commodities too, but there's a helluva difference between $10 and $200 ones.
      Same goes for about any product, as the price goes up, you generally are looking at totally different features. A $200 toaster ought to bake a freaking casserole for me, perfectly. You can't just write off expensive variants of cheaper products because they all make coffee, they all make toast, they all have four wheels, all show my TV signal, they all have the same system architecture, etc. There's so much more to it, and the most demanded features often get pushed down into cheaper products (the real commodities). Don't underestimate that effect, at some point a dual slot toaster might have been ritzy, who knows :)

    13. Re:It seems ironic... by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      I find it rather incredible that supposedly computer-literate people in the year 2009 still think Macs only have one-buttoned mice. Physically, yes. Functionally, no.

      I'm thinking of inventing a one pedal car. Physically, not functionally; I mean that would just be silly.

      To disengage the clutch, you press the pedal three times in quick succession. The engage the clutch, four times in quick succession. To increase the engine speed, two groups of three taps, and to decrease it, three groups of two taps.

      The brake? That's important - you wouldn't want to run into anybody's arse, at least figuratively, and so it's configurable. Either you you type out "stop" in morse code or tap long-short-long-long-long-short while selecting any tune that has "Stop" in the title on the onboard mp3 player, provided you downloaded it legally from iTunes. Death to pirates, mwahahahaaha.

      One other thing you might like to consider: The last time France lost a war was before macs had two button mice. That last time Germany started one was before macs had two button mice. And yet, still people mention those things. Go figure.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    14. Re:It seems ironic... by PasteEater · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Protools is the reason why every popular band's songs sound like overproduced shit. Protools has led to copypasted, phoney-sounding crappola which is not worthy of being called "music". Protools takes the soul out of recording.

      What a stupid fucking thing to say. Pro Tools has nothing to do with why popular band's songs sound like overproduced shit. For that, you can turn to the producers, who in turn get their opinions from the marketplace. So far, people keep buying up the garbage that the major labels have been pushing, so guess what? It's going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

      If Pro Tools alone were the culprit, then ALL of the music being produced (Indie bands, Barbershop, whatever) would sound like overproduced shit. It doesn't. And since most of this music is recorded straight into Pro Tools these days, I guess we can eliminate Pro Tools alone as the sole reason popular music is shitty.

      Instead, I think what you are getting at is that non-linear editing is making music homogenous, and taking the life (soul?) out of it. This could be a valid argument. It's too bad you didn't make it.

      And yes, Pro Tools does run on Windows, including Vista. It is also pretty unreliable, at least when you are dealing with the TDM systems. The Macs run much more smoothly, and are much easier to troubleshoot when things (invariably) go wrong. Windows does have the advantage of being able to chase Unity though...

      I'm not pulling this out of my ass; I have almost a decade of experience in the industry, and as I type this, I am mixing a commercial (in Pro Tools, on a 5 year-old Mac) for delivery on Tuesday.

      I will agree with you on one thing though: Pro Tools is overpriced. If you want real sticker shock, try looking into Digidesign's hardware crossgrades. *Shudder*

      --
      There are two kinds of people in the world: those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
    15. Re:It seems ironic... by fugue · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've always been confused by the fact that very few companies seem to do this: "Here's a bonus tacked on to the top of your salary. It is earmarked for you to spend on our competitors' products. Tell us what's good about them." What am I missing?

      --
      "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
    16. Re:It seems ironic... by bane2571 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The bit where the media finds out and rather than saying "Great, Ballmer is keeping an eye on the competition" they say "ZOMG! Ballmer prefers Apple over Microsoft!"

    17. Re:It seems ironic... by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, I found it amusing to repeat Ballmer's quote, but change it slightly.

      Original quote:

      "Apple gained about one point, but now I think the tide has really turned back the other direction. The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $500 for a computer in this environment -- same piece of hardware -- paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be."

      Changed slightly:

      "Microsoft gained about one point, but now I think the tide has really turned back the other direction. The economy is helpful. Paying an extra $500 for an operating system in this environment -- same piece of software -- paying $500 more to get a logo on it? I think that's a more challenging proposition for the average person than it used to be."

      CEOs of technology companies should be careful not to throw stones in glasshouses.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    18. Re:It seems ironic... by alienw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who the hell actually expands and upgrades their PCs these days, though? This isn't 1997, you can't just buy a computer and just replace the motherboard and CPU every 2 years. Unless you play a lot of video games (in which case Macs are not really an option), I do not see why you would need to upgrade a machine if it had decent specs when you bought it. It's a pain to even add RAM these days, since by the time you get around to it, the type required will already be obsolete and expensive. And really, just about everything you might need to add is available as a USB device.

    19. Re:It seems ironic... by MemoryDragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tell me. What does OSX have that Linux or Windows on a PC doesn't?

      Actually a backup capability which really works...
      You are not even forced to upgrade to a higher version of the same operating system for a half working restore...

      Unix tools out of the box,
      No file locking, which makes it important if you do some serious development!

      No registry which is the root of many evils in windows.

      A system administration frontend which does not try to make you insane by distributing its functionality over 15.000 ui dialogs.

      User Access Control which actually works as expected!

      A filesystem which does not fragment as hell in serious development tasks.

      A real working distributed component framework all the infrastructure is built upon which actually is usable!

      It does not thrash my harddisk for minutes after bootup with tasks hidden by the process explorer (happend to me in vista)!

      It does not lock my ui half a minute after showing it because it needs to load other things, und just tries to give the impression of being usable while it clearly isnÂt.

      It comes with SSH and VNC and Xwindows out of the box.

      The file sharing capabilities and printer sharing capabilities are superior thanks to Rendevouz!

      Dashboard actually is usable instead if trying to pointlessly shove the widgets into the working area of many people!

      It has a browser which follows web standards which are newer than 2003!

      It has users who do not insist of using a 10 year old browser despite being numerously the victims of worms and virii induced by the shortcoming of this browser!

  2. Not that he's far off the mark, but... by cizoozic · · Score: 5, Funny

    Jealousy is a stinky cologne, Stevie. ;)

  3. Additional Ballmer comments... by Brett+Buck · · Score: 5, Funny

    "And, they keep changing the OS and user interface faster than we can copy it! Bastards"

              Brett

  4. Misdirection by schmidt349 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I pay the extra $500 not so much to get the Apple logo on my computer as to keep the Microsoft logo (and hence the Blue Screen of Death) off of it.

    1. Re:Misdirection by fastest+fascist · · Score: 5, Funny

      Rumour has it there's a non-Microsoft OS available for PCs, as well. In fact, I heard something about them having some kind of "year of the desktop" promotion and giving it out for free. I can't remember what it's called, maybe someone here can help...

    2. Re:Misdirection by torkus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Apple is any better? It's not like MS sues people for running windows on non-standard hardware. It's not like MS refuses to 'license' applications for windows mobile. It's not like MS requires you to become a paid developer to write applications for their mobile OS either.

      I'm no MS fanboy, but i'm no huge apple fan either. Both do their share of questionable things but I'd have to say that MS is actually the more open of the two.

      And really, one look at the prices and specs of the new mini's should tell you that apple's grossly overpriced. I can buy a better specced *laptop* for less than the cost of a mini.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    3. Re:Misdirection by torkus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My reply was to a comment about business practices. Just because someone has the "right" to do something doesn't make it a fair or acceptable business practice.

      Furthermore, the hole we've dug with "licensing" software might make it possible for them to require you use their hardware but that's actually up for debate in the courts right now.

      My original point stands - MS will not sue you for installing their OS on whatever hardware you want. They may have their faults but MS does far, FAR less to limit what you can do with their software/hardware then apple.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    4. Re:Misdirection by leomekenkamp · · Score: 5, Funny

      You mean this one?

      --
      Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
    5. Re:Misdirection by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 4, Funny

      STOP!

      Kernel Time!

      --
    6. Re:Misdirection by Draek · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's called FreeDOS, but it's a product made by some commie bastards copying the work of honest American workers, the popular and much loved MS-DOS. It's also "Open Source" which is commie talk for "hacking tools", so don't allow your child to use it or he'll become a dirty, smelly commie hacker.

      Just stay with the products of honest American companies like Windows Vista, you support our economy, you spit on the face of those commie bastards, and you get a solid, reliable product as only good ol' American craftmanship can produce.

      I've also heard some rumors of a "Lenix" OS or something, made by some finnish commie but trust me, son, you don't wanna piss off the boys at the NSA by using that. I've even heard it includes some sort of "manifesto" with it, fucking commies, always trying to brainwash you with their commie crap.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
  5. End of the world by oldhack · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm agreeing with Balmer... so hell has frozen over.

    I've better go dump all my money while I can. Maybe I'll get a mac.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  6. As opposed to... by zr-rifle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >paying $500 more to get a logo on it?

    As opposed to paying twice for the same, crappy OS...

    I suppose it would be better, in a moment like this, to look for free alternatives... right?

    --
    Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
  7. and with that same philosophy by FudRucker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    why pay X amount of dollars for microsoft-windows when you can get Linux for FREE!

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  8. Buy Apple Stock Now! by db32 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I seem to remember some other Ballmer moments of insight on Apple. There was that interview where he was laughing about how the iPhone was junk and Windows Mobile is the bestest evar. He also had some pretty amusing comparisons and whatnot between the wildly successful iPods and the Zune. I mean really now...aside from not selling for crap...the whole mass suicide on New Years was amazing...Apple clearly is failing because they haven't managed to have all of their products of a given model crash at the same time...

    Seriously...this guy has a long track record of saying absolutely moronic shit, why does anyone take anything he says seriously? He will fucking kill Google right?

    --
    The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
  9. Ballmer -1 Troll by javacowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ballmer is just trolling. He knows that Apple offers real value because OS X is a better operating system than Windows, which means that Apple has essentially taken away the high-end PC business away from Microsoft.

    He should know that trolling isn't going to bring those high-end customers back to Windows. Maybe he does, who knows?

    Microsoft has repeatedly chosen to patch Windows instead of rebuilding it from the ground up as a modern operating system, the way Apple did with OS X. They should have known 8 years ago that this was the wrong strategy.

    --
    This space left intentionally blank.
    1. Re:Ballmer -1 Troll by wickerprints · · Score: 4, Insightful

      None of your reasons is meaningful because you fail to consider the fact that Micrsoft used anticompetitive practices and developer lock-in to leverage an inferior product into the dominant consumer and enterprise OS. Businesses use Windows because their IT supports it, developers support it, OEMs support it, ad nauseam. It's not because it's a better product--it's because everyone and their mom has been stuck with it, like lousy VHS tapes. There are numerous examples in our economic history that show that the dominant technology is not always the "best."

      What Microsoft has failed to recognize for the past 8 years is that Steve Jobs' Apple Inc. isn't interested in playing that game any more. He is way too busy pushing Apple in the direction of emerging consumer technology. He wants Apple to not lead market share per se, but to lead the direction of the market. That's what the iPod and iPhone did. That's what Jonny Ive's design has done. I find it hilarious that people talk up all these competitors (Nokia, RIM, LG, Samsung, and Palm for the iPhone, and Creative, Microsoft, for the iPod), and say how they now offer better features and hardware than the Apple products they wish to "kill." They forget that before Apple even broke those markets wide open, NONE of those companies made jack SHIT. Where was the Zune before the iPod? Where was the Storm or Pre before the iPhone? Where was any of all this sudden innovation in hardware design before Apple made their mark? The competitors play catch-up because they lack the vision to lead. They are too busy resting on their laurels and squeezing every last dime out of the consumer. If Apple costs more (and I'm not necessarily convinced one way or another), I'm willing to pony up to support a company that has the balls to lead, because in the long run we're all the better for it.

      The whole tech industry and the consumers who use their products owe a huge debt of gratitude to Apple for lighting a massive bonfire under the collective asses of all the industry competitors. No other company in the past decade has done more to set a fierce competitive landscape in the realm of hardware, software, and product design. If it weren't for Apple we'd still be stuck with shitty Windows Mobile on 2" tiny non-touchscreen devices that looked uglier than a crack-addled stepmom on an alcohol binge.

  10. But the Air is "cheaper" than the Adamo... by MrCrassic · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Since the article used the Adamo as their example, I went ahead and did a price check between a Macbook Air and an Adamo.

    Turns out that for only $300 MORE, the Air will provide you with a CPU that's 400 MHz faster, the 128 GB SSD and dedicated graphics, along with OS X Leopard and the ability to run Windows Vista (probably better than the Adamo can).

    Aren't CEOs of software megaconglomerates like Microsoft supposed to do this kind of research before talking smack?

  11. Ballmer, open an Apple machine by edivad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Take a MacPro, open it, and compare it with stuff like Dell or Sony or HP. Is it a little more expensive? Yes. It is worth it? Hell, yeah.
    There is no match as far as how clean and robust is the build, compared to other top-brand PCs. Absolute absence of flying around cables, top of the line electronic components, maximum care down to the very little details.
    But this is a known thing to everyone that actually opened an Apple and other brand-name PCs.
    Ballmer, ... God's gift to every person in the world that does not really love Microsoft. Or for people, like myself, that could happily live even w/out them.
    He has been able to drag Microsoft, once perceived as technology source with fairly large following, down to the nobody-cared status, as far as all the new technologies being introduced.
    One failure after another, with Microsoft not being able to push new technologies even in their own niche (see Vista fiasco for one).

  12. Re:He's not totally wrong by bennomatic · · Score: 5, Funny
    Games are fun and all, but if we're talking about waste in our economy, there's three things wrong with your argument:
    • Most games have no productive output or result.
    • Most games sap significant time, which could have been used to earn money or add something productive to the world.
    • I'm guessing the games you're talking about cost you money.

    Please note: the following comments are not about you personally; I do not know you. The comments are a broad-strokes response to anyone who makes this argument.

    So, congratulations. You saved $100 for the privilege of spending $600 on games in the life of the OS installation, wasting 1000 hours in the interim, severely limiting your social life and development of your social skills, increasing your later-life health-care costs due to lack of exercise and poor nutrition, adding another $75 to your electric bill and 600 pounds of carbon emissions to the environment due to the energy usage while you're playing those games on your high-powered gaming system.

    If you love games, great. But from a more holistic perspective, it's a dubious argument.

    --
    The CB App. What's your 20?
  13. Hardly surprising... by tgibbs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The price differential exists precisely because the head of Microsoft doesn't understand what it is about Apple software that causes many people to consider an Apple computer to be worth a few hundred bucks more than a similar-spec Windows machine.

  14. Actually more like $650... by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Funny

    OS X: $500
    dark turtleneck + horn-rimmed glasses: $150

    1. Re:Actually more like $650... by isBandGeek() · · Score: 4, Funny

      Watching the man in Redmond throw a chair across the office: priceless

  15. So... by wampus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is where fanboys decide the talking points for the next month or so and shit them all over the internet?

  16. Ballmer needs Apple by Alain+Williams · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Ballmer wants the world to focus on the idea that the desktop fight is only between M$ and Apple. If he can do that then, perhaps (please -- hopefully), that people will not start using a Linux desktop.

    The Linux desktop is Ballmer's real nightmare... and it is getting closer.

  17. Re:Many differences but... by nEoN+nOoDlE · · Score: 5, Funny

    How much is it really worth to have a white laptop for instance?

    According to Apple, about 50 bucks less than having a matte black one.

    --
    Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
  18. Re:Many differences but... by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First of all I don't think the price difference is anywhere near $500.
    The simple truth is that Apple doesn't make any cheap PCs. They all seem to be well made with good components and with good support. All that really does cost money. I have only owned three apple products and all of them are iPods. They are all well made and have outlasted every other MP3 Player I have owned. My old Nano is just sitting since I got a touch but it works just fine.
    Ballmer may be correct. Except that what that means is that people will settle for Windows but they still really want a Mac. That makes Windows what you get when you can not get anything else.
    It also means that Windows could loose to Linux since it is even cheaper.
    Not a good place to be. They are in the middle.
    Plus Apple can always produce a cheaper PC if they want to. Can Microsoft make an OS cheaper than Linux?

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  19. Its not just the logo... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One thing Apple offers is good service. A user who isn't technical can buy their computer, their OS, and in a number of cases, the applications they use on a day to day basis (iWork for example) all from Apple. Instead of being shunted around between the hardware company, the OS vendor, the app maker, and perhaps some third party that is blamed for a driver issue, a user can just call one point of contact and most likely have the problem solved. Or, they can go to a Genius Bar and bring the machine and show the problem in person.

    Of course, one personal account is statistically insignificant, but I can compare support experiences on a personal level (as opposed to calling a business support line.) For a problem in a laptop, one PC maker put me on hold for 2-3 hours, read a script demanding running diagnostics even though the problem was quite obvious, then pretty much said to go pester the OEM for the part for a replacement. When I had bad RAM in a new Macbook, I went to a Genius Bar, and they just swapped out the entire machine with a new one.

    Business or premium PC support is different, but it definitely costs enough that brings the $500 to $1000 price difference way closer.

    For the cost difference, less aggravation for a user who is more focused on the work they are doing as opposed to the computer can be worth it.

    Another thing not factored in is OS X. OS X to some may bring the "Apple tax" gap closer together.

    One can argue the security issues about OS X versus Windows, but because the malware makers are gunning for Windows with relatively few exploits for OS X in the wild, one doesn't have to be as on top of computer security. I can run an OS X box using the default browser without antivirus software and not really have to worry about the box ending up as a botnet client (although there are always Trojans). This would be pure suicide if I did the same with Windows and IE and no antivirus software. OS X is a lot more forgiving for people who are not atop things when it comes to securing their computer.

  20. There is no Microsoft computer. by Chris+Tucker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But there ARE a variety of Apple computers, each somewhat different than the others. The Mac OS installer is smart enough to know which Mac it's being installed on, and configures itself accordingly.

    As for Windows. Well, now. HOW many motherboards are out there? How many different video and sound cards? How many webcams and microphones? How many fiddling little DLLs and drivers?

    And Windows has to accommodate them all. Or, rather YOU, the users, have to accommodate them all on your own, by seeking out and downloading the latest drivers for some card made in China using FSM knows what revision of onboard firmware.

    MS sells HOW MANY versions of XP and Vista? How many versions of Windows 7 will there be?

    Mac OS X. One box, one version. Install on as many Macs as you own. Got the last version of Mac OS X and you just bought the latest? Go ahead, SELL the old one or give it away.

    Apple Doesn't Care!

    Same with their iLife and iWork application suites.

    They WOULD rather that you didn't upload the DVD to Pirate Bay or the like. But they don't make anyone phone home or authenticate an install or give you grief if you don't have the serial number from the box.

    ALL my installs of OS X have been from previously owned install DVDs. NEVER a problem. NEVER an authentication from Cupertino required.

    Office? Feh! iWork, US$80.00 retail, probably less with an academic discount. iLife, same price.

    Other software? Photoshop? Please. Graphic Converter uses most PS plug ins and filters. Outlook Express? I can manually infect my Mac with viruses and trojans without any help, thank you very much.

    Mail app or Eudora work just fine for me as email applications. And neither will do anything I don't explicitly authorize.

    Internet Explorer? Please! Don't make me laugh, I have chapped lips! Firefox makes IE its bitch 24/7.

    Mac OS vs. Windows? Two Words: TIME MACHINE!

    So, yeah, Ballmer, you sweaty little monkey, shrieking and throwing your feces at passersby, that logo IS worth the extra money to me.

    If only because YOU don't see a penny of it.

    --
    Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
  21. Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... by Karlt1 · · Score: 4, Informative

    But more significantly, the OS actually works. Personally, I hate it - I intensely dislike the fact that when you get under the covers, it looks like UN*X but it isn't UN*X in a lot of ways that matter. It's essentially NeXT Step, and I hated that, too.

    How is OS X which is certified Unix (http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html) not Unix?

  22. been said already... by nEoN+nOoDlE · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is definitely the pot calling the kettle black. How much am I paying exactly for all those "Built for Windows" stickers I've had to scrape off?

    --
    Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
  23. Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs by falconwolf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Personally I like the hardware and design of the MacBook Pro, the software is nice too, but for me it's not worth the extra coin.

    When I switched from Windows to OS X and got my MacBook Pro I first compared it's price to those of Windows OEM laptops and the prices were comparable. While an HP laptop cost about $50 less a Dell cost about $200 more for similarly configured laptops. So I didn't pay extra. I've had my MBP for about 20 months now and in that tyme I haven't had nearly as many problems with it as I have had with the Windows, or Linux, PCs I've also had.

    Falcon

    --
    Should there be a Law?
    1. Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs by falconwolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You must have been looking at the wrong Dell one then

      Yea, Dell makes it harder to find a computer than Apple does. Does a buyer want a Home/Home Office system, a small to medium business system, or a large business system? Of course there are other choices. And they all come with different configurations and different prices. However when I looked there was 3 Mac laptop lines, MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro. It's quite easy to see which one a buyer would want to buy. I just checked Dell again. Home and Home Office does not have a 17". Small Business has three, the lowest price one is $600 whereas the other two start at $3405, $700 more than the 17" MacBook Pro. Now for large business, there are 2, the Dell Precision M6400 with a 2.66 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 17" UltraSharp(TM) WUXGA (1920x1200) RGB LED Display, 4.0GB, DDR3-1066MHz SDRAM, and 320GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM with Windows XP (which is being End of Lifed) cost $3,168. The MacBook Pro with the same configuration is $2800. What about the other one? Instead of XP it comes with Redhat Linux and cost $3090 for the same cpu, graphics, and hdd.

      With the exception of the $600 laptop all of the laptops above cost more than the 17" MacBook Pro. You may say "but you looked at 17" laptops". Yes I did. One of the things I got it for, photography, the larger screen is better. For photography I also want a big hdd and high resolution display as well as a fast processor.

      Falcon

      --
      Should there be a Law?
    2. Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs by maxume · · Score: 4, Funny

      A couple of weeks ago, I had to replace the battery in my timex watch.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows PCs by Ixitar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I, on the other hand, bought a refurbished PowerBook 5 years ago and had zero problems with it. The only reason that I upgraded to a new MacBook Pro has been that I needed a larger disk and the 4GB of ram along with the ability to run Java 6. This was in January and I have had zero problems with it.

      I understand that there are those that seem to just run into problems with their Apple products. There are always the occasional bad batches.

      I like the Apple Macintosh systems, because I am a former NextStep developer. I have owned Apple computers since Mac OS X first came out. Before that, I have owned various PCs running Microsoft DOS and Windows. I have even tried Linux.

      I am by no means a fanboi, but am sick of hearing people who bitch and moan about the price of a Mac or that Apple does not open up Mac OS X to run on a generic Intel system. One of the reasons that Apple's systems work so well is that they control the hardware as well as the software.

      If you think that Apple's prices are too high, then don't buy one. Do you bitch and moan that a Mercedes is too expensive when you are buying a car? Or do you look at cars that are in your price range?

      BTW: I got over 5 years use out of my PowerBook before I desired to upgrade to a MacBook Pro. I think that I definitely got my money's worth.

  24. you forgot by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Funny

    to whine about the mouse.

  25. It's about service. by Alchemist253 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My bias: I primarily run Linux (writing this on a Debian workstation), so I suppose I might be more of a "Microsoft basher" than an "Apple fanboy."

    However, one thing I will say about Apple is that it has arguably the best customer service of any large company I have ever dealt with in ANY FIELD.

    Fortunately, Apple products tend to "just work" and continue "just working" so I don't have to deal with service that much. However, when I have I have been impressed.

    When I called Apple support for a particularly obscure software problem, within I got conferenced in with an OS X software engineer who had kernel HFS code in front of him. Keep in mind, this was the standard consumer 800-number level support! How often would this happen at, say, Microsoft?

    I broke one of the mechanical components of my iPhone, walked into an Apple store, and within ten minutes walked out with a replacement phone - no arguing, frustration, or upselling attempted. Along the same vein, a friend of mine had a laptop that was YEARS off warranty, and when the DVD drive finally died Apple still offered to repair it at no charge.

    I've even gone into the Apple store to look at accessories like earphones and had a salesperson tell me that a different retailer was having a sale that I should check out to save money.

    My point I suppose is that the "Apple tax" (or what I would more formally refer to as the "brand premium") is in no small part to pay for having a large number of well-trained (even more with respect to customer interaction than technical skill) employees with sufficient authority to actually deal with problems. Apple takes the attitude that customer satisfaction is more important than low prices - and I thank them for it.

  26. Re:Is there a gas leak in here? by Moofie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I prefer Apple, and I don't have to justify the increased expense to you.

    It is worth the extra coin to me, and you can do whatever makes you happy.

    What's the problem?

    --
    Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  27. Take one apart by tkrotchko · · Score: 4, Informative

    "it is also true the Macbook chassis is vastly superior to practically any "PC" notebook vendor."

    It is most assuredly not true. I have a 2 year old MBP, and I replaced the hard drive last fall.

    Let me tell you that is a nontrivial exercise because of a few factors:

    1) The case is beautiful, but you must remove 20+ screws and you have to take the entire notebook apart to change the hard drive
    2) The screws are very tiny, and the case doesn't really fit together that well. If you don't get just right, the clever magnetic catch doesn't release properly. Then you get to take it all apart again.
    3) The cables are held in place with adhesive tape (!!!!) inside.
    4) The holder for the hard drive was clearly built for cost and is not well engineered.
    5) The wiring overall inside is cheaply done.
    6) I've taken apart a Mac Mini, and the construction of the MBP internally is similar.

    So I use my MacBook pro, and I like it, but I compared it to the laptop work provided me (a high-end HP).

    1) Things like hard drives and memory come apart with no screws. They simply pop out without disassembling
    2) There is no tape on the inside of a comparable HP laptop. If you have to disassemble it, it's pretty easy, and there are not 20 screws in the entire machine. The wiring is done far more intelligently.

    The HP is simply engineered better than the MBP. Now I'm not saying every HP laptop is well engineered and put together, but the laptops that in the same price range as the MBP are simply better machines.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:Take one apart by Ma8thew · · Score: 4, Informative

      The new Macbook and Macbook Pro have much improved hard-drive access. Apple even shows you how to do it in their manual.

  28. You're doing it wrong by Rix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can find a laptop that will suit my needs for $700 or so. That its specs are different than the lowest priced Mac laptop is totally irrelevant, because it meets my requirements.

    You don't calculate the Mac tax by comparing similar PC and Mac systems, you calculate it by comparing the PC you would buy with the Mac you'd have to buy.

    1. Re:You're doing it wrong by MeNeXT · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You calculate the value of a PC by how long it lasts (time and usefulness) compared to the price you paid. I still have a useful 2001 G3. After eight years it comes out cheaper than any PC.

      When you keep on buying the cheapest you start to forget what value is.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
  29. Re:Paying $500 for an OS that works, however... by Karlt1 · · Score: 4, Informative

    What I'm talking about is that in UN*X you can start with the init process and trace through shell scripts and textual config files to see how every service is started; and if things get buggered, you can fix them with a text editor. With MacOS (as with NeXT Step before it, and with KDE and with Gnome), the users with their pretty pointy clicky tools can make messes that the pretty pointy clicky tools can't get them out of.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launchd