IBM Tries To Patent Offshoring

Ian Lamont writes "IBM has filed a patent application that covers offshoring employees. Application 20090083107, dated March 26, 2009, is a 'method and system for strategic global resource sourcing.' Figure 2 gives a pretty good idea of what's involved — it shows boxes labelled 'Engineer,' 'HR,' and 'Programmer' with crossing arrows pointing to cylinders labelled 'India,' 'China,' and 'Hungary.' The article speculates that IBM may apply the methodology to its own staff — it reportedly plans to lay off thousands of employees and has even started a program to have IBM workers transfer to other countries at local wages."

Comments

This is just ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

The US patent system is just broken!!

Re:This is just ridiculous

[thhamm]

yes much better in soviet russia, there patents offshore IBM!

Re:This is just ridiculous

[jvillain]

The Bilski case outlaws buisness methods meaning this will be denied by the patent office.

Relax

[Nerdfest]

I'm sure they're just patenting this so others can't. Otherwise it would be just ... evil.

Re:Relax

[Idiomatick]

Even if they patent it and use it if other people can't because of them .... Honestly though in the global scheme out sourcing is probably a good thing, its just bad for the US.

Re:Relax

[Tubal-Cain]

Otherwise it would be just ... evil.

Everything MS knows about business they learned from IBM up until OS/2.

Re:Relax

[Cally]

Oh, right, I see; that's a relief! If I thought that IBM might be about to corner the market in stabbing hard-working employees in the back before pitching them over the side, I'd be concerned about the future of western civilisation. Now I can sleep easy, secure in the knowledge that they will cross-license it to all comers. Hoorah! for the market.

Re:Relax

[Vectronic]

Honestly though in the global scheme out sourcing is probably a good thing, its only bad for countries who have nothing to offer.

U.S. outsources jobs, fine, "loss of jobs", but what about other countries that don't have say the factories to build large equipment outsourcing to the U.S.? Sort of like WW2, but without the violence. Outsourcing the soldiers, but insourcing the manufacturing.

Re:Relax

[againjj]

Looked at the trade deficit lately?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USTrade1991-2005.png

Re:Relax

[Idiomatick]

True it's only bad for countries with nothing to offer. BUT because atm the US is waaay ahead of India in lifestyle wages w/e. It will harm the US. Because it is an equalizer. Right now we have a system in place that is unfair globally, the US and other rich countries are benefiting. Outsourcing makes the economy more fair. That screws everyone currently on the top. Ethically we should be OK with fair systems.

Side note for coding. Coding is VERY easy to export, shipping costs nothing. There are no really special tools involved. Minimal language requirements. All it requires is good brains. So we feel this equalizing force more strongly than other sectors. This results in our average wage not changing much hence our ppp doesn't change. And our wages essentially plummet. Still... those coders in india probably live damn well.

Re:Relax

[Anonymous Coward]

They should make a law that you can't try to patent something when you know the patent is invalid.

That would stop these 'protective patents' from ever appearing.

Re:Relax

[Anonymous Coward]

huh? so it's fine if people in other countries lose their jobs to another country, as long as the job isn't stolen from the US?

Re:Relax

[Vectronic]

No, but it was good for a laugh...

My point wasn't really to say that it doesn't/isn't effecting the US, only that it's not just the US, or the US is the only one on the negative side.

I'm not an expert, probably not even moderately informed in economics, but I just get kinda of sick of people blaming other countries for the US's imbalance of commerce like the US isn't to blame at all. There are millions of people willing to work, but because of regulations, taxes, insurances, and this ridiculously high standard of living that makes companies outsource, when a lot of the workers are probably willing to do away with all that nonsense and use a basic work = cash, sort of under-the-table thing which seems to be what attracts companies to outsourcing, WYSIWYG systems. Granted in some cases they abuse it, which amounts to basically slavery but that's not a "given".

Re:Relax

[maxume]

Lately? It is still huge, but it actually shrank a bit the last two years (the graph cites this file as source data, but is 3 years out of date):

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gands.txt

And a little less than half of it is oil, which isn't exactly a threat to our ability to manufacture (it is just an expensive habit):

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/current_press_release/exh9.txt

There isn't really anything good about a huge trade deficit, but a ~trillion dollar trade deficit doesn't really prove that a 14 trillion dollar economy is rotten to the core (but I would agree that there are lots of problems).

Re:Relax

[againjj]

Ah, I didn't really get that at all from the post. I read, "Outsourcing is not bad because other places outsource to us." My response was to note that they don't, as much. In other words, I generally agree with you.

Re:Relax

[Fulcrum of Evil]

this ridiculously high standard of living

Oh poor me, I have the right to work here, but unlike most of europe, no health insurance.

Re:Relax

[phantomfive]

Minimal language requirements

I agree with your main point, but I'd like to add two of my own: communication is essential, when I've worked with offshore development teams, there had to be daily communication between both sides. If you can't get your point across to them, then the development is not going to happen.

The second point is that our goal shouldn't be to keep 'them' down, it should be to help them raise up to our level as quickly as reasonable. There is enough work to go around, and when they reach a high standard of living, their wages will be as much as ours, and outsourcing won't be a problem.

Re:Relax

[Roskolnikov]

....Outsourcing make the economy more fair. That screws everyone currently on the top. Ethically we should be OK with fair systems..

WTF?

Fair economically ?

By this definition supply and demand wouldn't be fair, there should be enough for everyone.

Atlas Shrugged seems more and more appropriate these days but if that doesn't hit the spot I recall a Dilbert where the company outsourced to India; who outsourced to Hungary, who outsourced to Brazil who then outsourced back to the folks who were being outsourced in the US..... This 'economic' fairness is already in play, prices in India have gone up (supply, demand) so they subcontract and subcontract and subcontract; I have one mid grade contractor working for me who literally has 5 temp agencies, his original followed by 4 more each getting a cut, after its said and done we are paying for him slightly less than we would pay locally for a junior grade worker....

This simply isn't as effective as some would think, he would be much happier if he had the pay we are paying for him rather than for him;

One of the things that made the US great was the idea that you could come here with nothing and make something of and for yourself; if we follow this to its logical end we will dilute this in such a manner that the brightest will want to move elsewhere, we will no longer be in the lead or on top and its then that your 'fair' economy will show its true nature.

Re:Relax

[morgan_greywolf]

this ridiculously high standard of living that makes companies outsource

Oh? And what are you willing to do without? Because let me tell you something: to be on par with the standards of living in India and China, you can say 'bye-bye' to having your own place to live. Instead, you and three generations of your clan will be living in a studio apartment. You won't be able to afford a car, you won't be able to afford decent clothes, and you won't be able to afford to eat anything not obtained from a frickin' soup kitchen.

If that's how you want to live, fine. But don't impose your ideals on the rest of us, thanks.

Re:Relax

[Jurily]

Honestly though in the global scheme out sourcing is probably a good thing, its just bad for the US.

It's good if you're an investor. Everyone else is fucked.

Re:Relax

[Anonymous Coward]

> Coding is VERY easy to export, shipping costs nothing
Whatever. Validating specifications and writing them with enough detail to where they can be given to someone in China or India to fulfill the final coding is much more work than collaborating with local people to get the whole job done.

Re:Relax

[Anonymous Coward]

Minimal language requirements.

Really now. The vast majority of the documentation is written in english as it is the common denominator in almost all cases. If you go on to freenode irc and just sit in ##C,#C++, or #python just wait at about 2am a bunch of foreigners will come in with retarded questions that they cannot answer simply because they are unable to read the documentation.

Re:Relax

[Vectronic]

I said ridiculously high, never said it would have to become exactly the same.

Besides, if you don't have a job, and refuse to be employed because you aren't making $25 an hour, you'll end up on the street anyways.

Everyone starts wanting more and more money, quiting their job at $12 an hour, going for the $16 an hour, then $20, $25... the companies that were giving you $16, go "fuck this shit" and look outside of the country, the more those numbers rise, the more companies look outside, why give someone $25 an hour to do the same as someone else is willing to take $4, what makes you special? cause you just leased a new car, therefore you are a more valuable employee?

Give them a (valid, profitable) reason why you deserve $25 instead of $4, and they'll gladly hire you.

Re:Relax

[dwarg]

Outsourcing makes the economy more fair. That screws everyone currently on the top. Ethically we should be OK with fair systems.

I get your point but I just wanted to point out that the people "on the top" are doing better than ever in the global economy. It's the upper-middle class that's taking it on the chin. Outsourcing drives down the cost of labor which increases profit margins and/or lowers prices. While prices have gone down some, most of those gains have gone into obscene executive pay and shareholder dividends.

The upper-middle class was an anomaly sitting between the two kinds of people in this world. Those people that work for their money, and those people that expect their money to work for them.

To be fair, the upper-middle class slit their own throats by using debt to offset the stagnation of wages, and grow their quality of life, leaving ourselves without a safety net. But as an upper-middle classman that avoided debt and thought he might be within spitting distance of that second kind of people someday--I can say it was a fun dream while it lasted.

As for the fairness of the system I can't really claim to know what is fair in a system this large, but I am suspicious of any system that widens the gap between rich and poor. Because when you look at the shanty towns in Mexico where the factory packed up and left for China when they found out they could pay $0.40/hour instead of $1.20/hour and you see what they did to the water, the birth defects, and the people left behind with work related injuries you wonder how much it really helped them.

Granted coding isn't the scorched earth business that auto making is, but you get my point.

Re:Relax

[Maxo-Texas]

Dude...
The standard is more like $80 a month.

In china they were having severe problems when manufacturing wages doubled and approached $1 a day.

But it works, because if everyone makes $1 a day, then basic things like vegetables are cheaper (because you are only paying $1 a day to the person raising food for another 100 people).

Re:Relax

[Maxo-Texas]

The problem is that I pay $300 for Windows while Microsoft sells it in india for $35.
I pay $5 for a pill and they pay $.10 to the same company for the same pill. ( And in many cases- the company is making a profit on that $.10 pill).
I pay $19.99 for a movie, and they pay $2.49 for the same movie.
I pay $1 for an mp3 and they pay $0.00 for the same song (legally!)
I pay $70 for a pair of shoes that goes there for $5.

The corporations have laws passed that make it illegal to buy those pills for $.10 and import them to the US for $1.00 and undercut the company's local prices. Likewise for "region" encoded movies. And I.P. restricted web sites for songs. And "trademark protected" shoes.

So the companies get to hire $5 an hour labor to compete with me at $35 an hour. But I don't get to buy the cheaper products at the cheaper price.

It's bullshit. Our government has been bought and paid for by these companies and is completely corrupt.

They sell the dream that you can get rich-- brainwashing us from birth. But in reality your shot is about 1:1,000,000- as compared to 1:5,000,000 everywhere else.

Insurance is rigged- you are required to take it- but the amounts you pay are grossly over the losses. When the payout exceeds the amounts they owe you, they stiff you or go bankrupt. And "insurance" drives up the prices of every procedure just as "credit" drives up the prices of housing, cars, and everything else.

It will collapse soon. Probably within 12 years. We can't go into debt any more.

Re:Relax

[Eli Gottlieb]

Everyone starts wanting more and more money, quiting their job at $12 an hour, going for the $16 an hour, then $20, $25... the companies that were giving you $16, go "fuck this shit" and look outside of the country, the more those numbers rise, the more companies look outside, why give someone $25 an hour to do the same as someone else is willing to take $4, what makes you special? cause you just leased a new car, therefore you are a more valuable employee?

Well, according to the scenario you've set up, $25/hour is the market price, so the company can pay it or do without.

Re:Relax

[Vectronic]

Hmm, more accurately, they can pay it, or pay less by outsourcing. It could be circumvented if all companies based in X country had to hire people within X country, but even then it would just become regional, the east might be $25, but the west might become more lax in it's regulations, allowing more people to work, drop it down to $20, people from the east who don't qualify there, move to the west, people in the east refuse to go lower than $25, so the east companies outsource to the west, people lose jobs, move to the west as well.

Re:Relax

[hairyfeet]

Except with the little problem that it is NOT fair. One of the reasons why our standard costs so much is because you can't build smokestacks that spew cancer for 25+ miles in any direction, or dump enough toxic waste into the rivers that anything that touches that shit dies. But instead, thanks to the glories of outsourcing, we can pay an "el presidente" to poison the fuck out of HIS peasants so we can breathe clean air. And that sounds fair to you? All outsourcing does is brings miseries on third world peoples. Just see the filthy air in China, the toxic waste being dumped on China and India, the e-waste being dumped on ALL the third world, etc.

The only way outsourcing equalizes anything is equalizing money into the hands of the rich and the corrupt, while poisoning the poor and insuring a nice premature death from cancer and lots of lovely birth defects. There is a good reason why we can't compete with China. It is because we don't let factories dump poison right out the back into the rivers. And I for one thank every Deity I don't believe in for that. I say while they are outsourcing maybe they should just outsource themselves and their products out of the country. But expecting us to compete with countries that have no rules against toxic waste is frankly fucking stupid and a lie cooked up by ruthless multinationals.The poisons our little outsourcing has wreaked upon the world will end up causing more deaths than the bombs we dropped on Japan. Not really something we should be cheering about.

Re:Relax

[digitalchinky]

Not only that, but like the OP said, (a little inaccurate, but smack on the money anyway) most of these people live in small compound dwellings spanning one or two generations, but also covering a few families from the current generation. Several of these family members will be filches, they bum around and leech of the others while watching the grandparents do their washing, but several others will work 14 hour days and bring in money for the whole family. Sure the landscaping is crap, and they use second hand everything for everything, and the same pot holes in the road have been there since grandma was a babe, but this is not entirely because of poverty.

Sometimes it's a cultural thing - what good is that 80 inch $3000 plasma HDTV when you can buy a crappy little 21 inch vacuum tube job for $100. Sure the expensive one looks better and does a whole load of things, but the logic here is that it's a waste of money that could be better spent on a crap load of crap instead of a handful of excellent things. If they just saved up and got good stuff, it'd probably last longer, so in the long run they very likely aren't saving money at all anyway. Most of them live in what we would consider squalor not because they particularly have to, but because they will cut corners at every opportunity during construction and maintenance. Want your doorway to be squared off? WTF? That's too much work when you can just cut the door up to fit the doorway instead. You want your footpath to be smooth? What about the 6 utility poles that we plan on putting in, then yanking out half so that they each leave a 6 foot hole that you can break your leg in by accident at some future point in time? You want a gutter too, and you want it to be able to drain away? That would mean straight lines are needed. (Scratch of the chin) It's going to be expensive!

At least this is how it is in the Philippines. Not sure about India. Near enough is truly good enough it would seem. I sometimes wonder if this is where the world is headed, but then when I speak with the aforementioned older generations, they say the same thing occurred during their times too - maybe it's a slope, turtles all the way down!

Re:Relax

[Aceticon]

Coding is VERY easy to export

I don't know how many times you've worked with outsourced software developers, but my experience with them is that:
- If the code done by the outsources needs to connect to code done locally you need to explain them all about the existing code
- Specifically for the teams I work for in India, about 1 in 4 is really good, the rest not really (India seems to be suffering from the same effect as the Internet bubble caused in 2000 - due to the size of the demand for IT professionals, large numbers of people that should never have gone into IT are working as Software developers)
- If you're just outsourcing your coding you need much more detailed requirements and design specs than otherwise. Unfortunately, in this industry good specs (of any kind) are few and far between.
- Any large enough project will have a lot more time spent in requirements gathering, analysis and design than in coding. Actually, with a proper design code is the trivial part.
- You often don't have that much influence in the hiring choices in the remote site. Often enough that means you get landed with completely inappropriate personnel.

My personal experience from working with remotely located developers is that, unless you can give them full, well-specified, self-contained projects, the local developers actually end up spending more time supporting the outsourced developers (due to all the documentation and explanations needed) and reviewing/fixing the code developed in the remote site than they would if they just did the project themselves.

Re:Relax

[Acer500]

Oh? And what are you willing to do without? Because let me tell you something: to be on par with the standards of living in India and China, you can say 'bye-bye' to having your own place to live. Instead, you and three generations of your clan will be living in a studio apartment. You won't be able to afford a car, you won't be able to afford decent clothes, and you won't be able to afford to eat anything not obtained from a frickin' soup kitchen.

(I live in Uruguay, South America, so my opinions might be biased).

My uncle just returned from China, and he brought a lot of videos of his time there. I was AMAZED at the differences between what I expected, and what I saw.

People in (urban) China don't live as bad as you make it seem... it's true 90% of the workers don't have a car, they all move with scooters/small motorbikes, but the buildings were all pretty nice (if small), clothes all seemed decent (they're made there, after all!), and cooking wasn't so bad (yes, meat is unaffordable, but it's unaffordable in Europe too!) and AFAIK it wasn't obtained from a soup kitchen for the average worker.

The biggest surprise for me was the factory my uncle went to visit... workers there had access to a ping-pong table, billiards and nice couches/beds for their half-hour break... sounded more like Google than an "exploitation" factory.

BTW I don't have a car or my own house (though I'm getting there) - but from what my family in Canada tells me, it's not that usual for people in NA to "own" their own houses either - they're all acquired through the famed huge mortgages. I'm sure that if the Chinese government allowed those kinds of mortgages, more people there would have their own houses too.

Re:Relax

[Capt James McCarthy]

"Right now we have a system in place that is unfair globally, the US and other rich countries are benefiting. Outsourcing makes the economy more fair. That screws everyone currently on the top. Ethically we should be OK with fair systems."

I'm sorry, but it's only 'fair' if your profits go up (be it a company or an individual pay). The only people who are going to get screwed are the workers. The ownership doesn't change; only their profit margins. And that is really what this is all about, not 'fairness.' If you think for a moment that outsourcing makes for a better economic structure of free market, you'd be wrong. This is all about who will take the least amount of money to do the most amount of work, but not in a good way. It's tough to 'be fair competitively' when there is someone in a market that costs a fraction to maintain an equal quality of life can take your job. Sorry, but the simple answer is "well move."

But what does it matter? Outsourcing has been going on since the days of the carpet weavers and will continue to do so. Didn't the Romans outsource their troops? I wonder if I can outsource my mortgage?

"Side note for coding. Coding is VERY easy to export, shipping costs nothing."

You are outsourcing more then that. You are ensuring that there is no reason for any student/person in the "rich countries" (your words) to learn any type of engineering at all at some point. There is no need at that point. Let's export all the schools as well. I mean if it's cheaper and better for the economy, let's do it right? You'll still have courses here for a while; consumer101 and 210. But then again, it will be tough to suckle at the tit of all of the new manufacturing countries without generating any income. There is always Vegas/Wall Street I guess.

Re:Relax

[PeeShootr]

Your attitude on coding is precisely the reason that most software is shitty and unusable. If you think that coding a good, user application requires minimal language requirements and no communication skills, than I pray to God that you are not a coder, nor do you manage coders, nor do you work for a company that produces software, nor do you have anything to do with the software industry.

Re:Relax

[Eli Gottlieb]

It could be circumvented if all companies based in X country had to hire people within X country, but even then it would just become regional, the east might be $25, but the west might become more lax in it's regulations, allowing more people to work, drop it down to $20, people from the east who don't qualify there, move to the west, people in the east refuse to go lower than $25, so the east companies outsource to the west, people lose jobs, move to the west as well.

Right, except that the difference between $20/hour and $25/hour is actually small enough that the corresponding regional economies can adjust without a massive drop in the standard of living, unlike the difference between $1/hour and $25/hour.

Re:Relax

[homer_s]

Do you also worry about the trade deficit Oklahoma has with Texas? How about NY and IL? I'm amazed at how otherwise economically literate people misunderstand the trade deficit.

If your country's trade deficit makes you nervous, do this: Instead of saying "America's trade deficit is $X", say "America has an investment surplus of $X" - that'll make you feel better.

Re:Relax

[maxume]

I don't see how it can be sustained, and I worry that the investment (much of which seems to be in U.S. treasuries, but I haven't looked closely at that) is simply being consumed (meaning that standard of living is going to see downward pressure from the deficit balancing back out).

So my concern isn't really about the trade deficit, it is about it going away suddenly, in a way that has a negative impact on my life (I usually ask people if they maintain a trade deficit with their grocery store; it would be hard to find someone who was happy about that trade deficit going away...).

Re:Relax

[ShatteredArm]

It will collapse soon. Probably within 12 years. We can't go into debt any more.

I was saying the same thing last year, but now that they've added trillions more to both the debt and the monetary base (which they'll have nearly tripled by the end of the year), I decided I'm moving up the timeframe a bit.

Re:Relax

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you. I agree completely! :-)

Re:Relax

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear, hear!

Re:Relax

[Idiomatick]

That doesn't make the economic system less fair. We could poison our people for a cut if we wanted. So the jobs should go to them rather than us. What you are afraid of isn't unfairness. It is the end result of unfettered capitalism. I do think that as people get enough money they will get more education. And they will be able to afford to not poison themselves. That and a combination of global deal making. No-one is a fan of poisoning themselves but they need to remain competitive. So we can make a deal to all not ruin the earth. *gasp* This means the UN is a good thing and so are deals like the kyoto protocol (in principle) so libertarians are wrong, lets all rejoice.

Re:Relax

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont forget the fat cat that sits between the worker from the poor country and the offshorer from the rich country. If the money saved goes to improve the lifestyle of the worker from poor countries and/or to the pockets of the consumers in the countries, I'm ok with this, but its the fat cats sitting in the middle thats screwing both the worker from the poor country and the consumers from the rich country.

Patent naming outsourced?

[jperl]

Seems that IBM outsourced the naming of the patent. "Resource sourcing" sounds quite funny.

Title way too sweeping

[againjj]

Actually, it is just yet another a method of choosing the most efficient way to outsource. They have a model of the cost/benefit for various outsource options, a computer program to evaluate it, and a computer system on which it runs. Nothing as sweeping as "IBM Tries To Patent Offshoring".

How many years has it been?

[QuantumG]

India is on the brink of a revolution. The creation of a middle class between the very rich and the very poor is imminent. The writing is on the wall and the corporations are already moving on to Africa. So I'll ask again, how many years has it been? The elevation of the poorest people in the world to a western standard of living is happening in our lifetime.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Tubal-Cain]

India is on the brink of a revolution.

India has been "on the brink of a revolution" for some time now.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly enough, there is good reason to blame American labor unions for not moving the bulk of their efforts to China, India, etc.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, that was based on using money fixed to ours and using it to destroy our own middle class. What will be more interesting is the possibility of NEW companies coming from India ONCE they untie their money AND drop their trade barriers. I am hopeful that this will lead to more companies that truly do expand the commercial world, as opposed to usurp one with another (like China is trying to do).

Re:How many years has it been?

[WindBourne]

Yeah, I have always been amazed that Unions are NOT pushing it everywhere. They take the attitude that 3rd world countries can not compete and are unimportant. Yet, it is EXACTLY where they SHOULD be. The west is overall OK (not great, but OK). But workers in China, India, Brazil, etc are treated horribly and subjected to horrible environmental conditions. If the unions would even push a LOW MINIMUM HOURLY WAGE, it would make a difference to the world.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Jane Q. Public]

"The elevation of the poorest people in the world to a western standard of living is happening in our lifetime."

Yes, we know. Who do you think has been paying for it?

Re:How many years has it been?

[clampolo]

Yeah, sure. Maybe YOU would like to go and organize a union in China.

Have fun when the commies start tearing your fingernails out and sell your kidneys.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who do you think was getting the short end of the stick when the western world was going around colonising the rest of the world and pillaging their resources?

Re:How many years has it been?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm... isn't that exactly the sort of treatment the unions had to face in the U.S. when they first started?

What's different now?

Now all unions want to fight for is a fifteen minute break every ten minutes. What happened to the spirit of "we shall overcome?"

If they actually cared about American jobs, they would be going to China and doing what needs to be done. Period.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Anonymous Coward]

The revolution is yet to come - India has a social problem that is it's achilles heel.

Countries with ever increasing populations cannot sustain economic growth to the exclusion of the many. India does not have a solid birth control program in place.

Unlike the US, India is a feudal culture, one that tends not to practice the meritocracy common in Western countries.

The American spirit is far superior to anything in the world. It is this spirit that continues to produce remarkable leaders (every so often) that make America better.

Over the next 100 years watch the US adjust to new realities. We will demand it of our politicians and get it.

All this huffing and puffing about H1Bs and outsourcing is a temporary phenomenon - until such time as Americans adjust to the new reality - and begin to compete head-to-head.

This reality check has been sorely needed, because Americans have forgotten they are better off working together to get what they want so their kids have a better life.

For now, watch IBM take the next step, sooner or later, and move it's headquarters to a jurisdiction with no taxes. The 'I' in IBM will finally mean what it says.

Re:How many years has it been?

[hrvatska]

Ummm... isn't that exactly the sort of treatment the unions had to face in the U.S. when they first started?

What's different now?

Now all unions want to fight for is a fifteen minute break every ten minutes. What happened to the spirit of "we shall overcome?"

If they actually cared about American jobs, they would be going to China and doing what needs to be done. Period.

Actually it's not the sort of conditions unions faced when they started organizing in the US. A far cry from it. The Chinese government is far more repressive than the US government ever was. The US had a long tradition of free speech by the time labor organizations started organizing. While government and business interests were hostile, sometimes violently so, it was possible to at least publish articles advocating the use of strikes as a means of gaining better working conditions. Try getting away with that in China today. Additionally, the most significant increase of unions' power came in the 1930's, when legislators friendly to organized labor were elected on a broad scale. Not sure you can even run for office in China in the same way you can in the US. Seems like anyone of any significance has to rise up through the communist party. Who don't seem very communist these days. There are labor organizations in China, but for the most part they're pretty pliable and don't push things too far.

Re:How many years has it been?

[BrokenHalo]

Africa? bullshit. Indians look like niggers but they're actually asian.

If you're going to drag race into this, you could at least get your facts right. Indians are customarily (and I use the word advisedly, since genomic evidence is inconclusive) regarded as caucasian.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try getting away with that in China today.

Exactly!

Re:How many years has it been?

[Anonymous Coward]

India is on the brink of a revolution.

If things keep up like this, America will be too.

Re:How many years has it been?

[rwiggers]

Maybe you should recheck your work conditions assumptions.
China is known for bad work conditions, some of us have seen it in place.
Brazil may have some spots of really bad work conditions, albeit illegal, but generally it seems that work conditions here are better or at least similar to US. Public heath care exists, although somewhat inefficient. Unpaid overtime is illegal. Maximum working hours allowed is 44h/week, typical is 40. 30 days of vacation and 13 salaries annually. Minimum (very minimum) work insurance and retirement plan is guaranteed by the State. Living standards are quite reasonable. You won't be able to buy as much (electronic/electrical) crap as in the US or EU, where the prices are similar internationally, but the basics are compatible with the earnings.
About India I don't know, but a quick web research revealed it somewhat worse than Brazil, but regulated and with minimal conditions, that aren't met only in small companies (much like Brazil).

Re:How many years has it been?

[WindBourne]

BOTH, Brazil and India have laws in place, but companies in both countries ignore those laws unless they are large or foreign companies. Then, and only then, does the gov. watch the company (esp. the foreign companies). For medium to small ones, it is anything goes. Apparently, there are few officials who give a crap. While I have never been to either country (yet), Yes, I have talked to ppl from both. My in-laws are Indian, and a number of old friends are from various parts of South America, including Brazil.

Re:How many years has it been?

[homer_s]

Who do you think has been paying for it?

I'm curious, who paid for it? It cannot be the western consumers who get products for a lower cost. It may be the western workers - but only if they didn't retrain and move to other fields (typists, clerks and autoworkers didn't sit around and complain about computers or robots).

So, again, who paid for it? You seem to have a zero-sum view of the world.

Re:How many years has it been?

[MrResistor]

Your amazement is the result of a fundamental error. You see, in general, unions don't care about making a difference in the world. All too often they don't even care much about their own members. They are for the most part political structures that mainly exist to sustain and promote themselves.

Re:How many years has it been?

[rwiggers]

I am from Brazil and work in a large local company. Have also worked for small ones, and while smaller ones don't follow exactly whats in the law, they are very far from the scenario you posted.

Re:How many years has it been?

[Jane Q. Public]

Not at all. First, my comment was meant as semi-humorous. And I do not believe it is zero-sum at all. But the reality is that we HAVE been paying... though did I not state or imply that we were paying for everything.

First, we have been paying for a decade -- closer to 2, really -- of outsourcing. Literally boatloads of lost jobs. Certainly a lot of people here retrained, but you seem to be under the impression that retraining comes for free. Very, very far from it: at the same time, the cost of higher education in the U.S. has skyrocketed, and while there were minor subsidies from the government due to outsourcing, in the long run most of those costs are paid by those who lost those jobs.

Second, let's not forget that the jobs that are left over in the fields that have been outsourced, were significantly devalued. Another cost.

Third, outsourcing is only a short-term profit strategy. In the long run, as the outsourced jobs bring profit to people in other nations, inevitably there is increased call for human rights and better working conditions in those other nations. As these progress, the "extra" profit from outsourcing gradually seeps away. We have seen this happen quite a bit in the last 10 years, and it is a significant inflationary force working against the American consumer that would not have occurred had those jobs not been outsourced. (NOTE: I am not arguing that human rights and better working conditions are bad things! Merely pointing out that yet again, there are real costs involved.)

Fourth, even more than living in a global economy, we live in a global ecology. Due to outsourcing of jobs to countries that have less stringent environmental controls on industry than we do (this is an understatement), this global ecology has been suffering to a great degree. No, we in the U.S. are not having to suffer the worst of this environmental degradation, but a good bit of it does come back to us in the long run. Yet another cost. If you subscribe to the idea that man-caused greenhouse global warming is a reality, it is atmospheric and global rather than local. We all participate, and we all bear costs.

I could go on, but I think I have made a point. Yes, we have been paying. A lot. Not for all of it by any means, but a lot. Probably more than any other nation.

The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

IBM is a typical blue chip company. They get things done, but tend to move slowly, relying mainly on their reputation to differentiate them from the competition. They tend to move slowly, in a systematic way. I think they are an example of where outsourcing could work, because since they are slow already, the normal problems of communicating across a globe aren't going to be as serious.

The main problem they will have is making sure their foreign teams are good. On the other hand, that isn't always an easy problem even with teams in the United States.

Sorry if this goes against the typical Slashdot ideology against outsourcing, but the truth is I feel more sorry for workers in developing countries who might not have running water or electricity 24 hours a day, than I do for an American programmer making $80k a year who might have to look a little harder for a job (that includes me). Spread the wealth. There's enough to go around.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Thing is though is it is entirely possible to gut the first world middle class through off shoring. I mean first the manufacturer jobs now the knowledge worker jobs?

I mean we can't all work at Wal Mart as plumbers or for the government can we? Funny thing is once these short sighted companies seeking to boost the bottom line for next quarterly earnings call with Wall St. succeed they will have destroyed our economy and thus themselves.

Because hiring Indian and Hungarians at low wages is great but selling to them on the same meager wages is not so profitable.

Perhaps their standards of living will rise fast enough to offset the decline of our standard of living but that is really a big unknown. So this just seems like more MBA asshats fucking all of us including themselves. And believe it or not I am not even a protectionist this is just getting to the point of. Hey are these people even thinking this through? I mean it is the consumption of the first world middle class that props this whole shared delusion we call an economy up. It's all a really big ponzi scheme in a way and if us schmucks at the bottom don't keep buying in the whole thing collapses.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Tokerat]

Sorry if this goes against the typical Slashdot ideology against outsourcing, but the truth is I feel more sorry for workers in developing countries who might not have running water or electricity 24 hours a day, than I do for an American programmer making $80k a year who might have to look a little harder for a job (that includes me). Spread the wealth. There's enough to go around.

I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I was too busy filing for unemployment because there are no jobs left in America at all. how sorry will you feel for American s when WE don't have running water and electricity anymore?

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would I want to CATCH SARS?

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

I was too busy filing for unemployment because there are no jobs left in America at all.

There are jobs left in America. And there will be for some time.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Amiga Trombone]

Some interesting info I picked up doing some research on who was hiring whom, and where. Here's a short list of companies in our industry, and the number of H1-B's they hired in 2008.

Microsoft: 4437
IBM: 1413
Hewlett-Packard: 520
Apple Computer: 291

You tell me - which of these companies has produced the most innovative products over the last decade? By the way - unlike the other three, Apple doesn't offshore their product development - it's all done in Cupertino, Ca. Also, when you call their tech support, you'll reliably get connected with someone who speaks English.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Thing is though is it is entirely possible to gut the first world middle class through off shoring. I mean first the manufacturer jobs now the knowledge worker jobs?

Probably not. The US still produces, in fact the exports alone from the United States are more than the entire GDP of India. The US manufacturing segment produces roughly $2.86 trillion a year, whereas China's industrial output was $1.6 trillion. The United States is not 'behind' in world production.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

You should list what those numbers are as percentages of their total workforce. It would be interesting.

Re:The thing about IBM

[blind biker]

They don't care. Most publicly traded companies are managed by corporate psychopaths ("Snakes in Suits", great book) and as such, they don't care for anyone's benefit but their own. If they can make $100.000 at the expense of the whole economy of their (or any) country, they'll do it. If it means hundreds of deaths, they'll do it. They just don't feel anything for anyone, and before their company tanks they'll have jumped ship already.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft: 4.9%
IBM: 0.3%
Hewlett-Packard: 0.2%
Apple Computer: 0.9%

Re:The thing about IBM

[Red Flayer]

Microsoft: 4437
IBM: 1413
Hewlett-Packard: 520
Apple Computer: 291

Never mind the fact that one of those companies is a service company (IBM). Maybe parent to your post chose to ignore the fact that IBM has entire LOBs that are headshops, more-or-less?

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Since other people seemed interested, I figured I might as well look it up, and here is what I have:

Company : H1B/Total Employees : Percentage

Microsoft: 4437/57,588 : 7%
IBM: 1413/130,000 : 1%
Hewlett-Packard: 520/65,000 : <1%
Apple Computer: 291/20,000 : <1%

I also found an interesting article talking about how many jobs the ipod creates. The result is 13,920 in the US, and 27,250 outside the US. This breaks down to $753 million in the US and $318 million outside the US. Something to think about.

Re:The thing about IBM

[pwizard2]

There are jobs left in America. And there will be for some time.

But there may not be enough jobs to go around in a few years in some industries. (that time may already have come) Competition is going to be terrible, and quite a few people are inevitably going to be cut out. If there are lots of people offering a service, then the value of that service must go down as a result, leading to lower wages. (It's like fighting for a sandwich that already has a big bite taken out of it) The problem may be delayed for awhile by having some people switch industries, but eventually those markets will become over-saturated with new people and the same problem will begin again.

Outsourcing should be a criminal offense in this economy, and I would also love to see a moratorium on new H1-B visas for a few years.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

But there may not be enough jobs to go around in a few years in some industries.

As they say, there is no reason to prop up the buggy whip makers. If there are not enough jobs to go around, find a different industry, it happens. You'll probably end up happier anyway.

Outsourcing should be a criminal offense in this economy, and I would also love to see a moratorium on new H1-B visas for a few years.

Protectionism has been shown over and over again to be a bad idea. The best thing to do is help these developing countries raise their standard of living, then there will be no point to outsource to them. They can have their own industry serving their own, and we can have our industry serving us.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Best I could quickly google (a couple sources varied, please post if you know better than these numbers)...

Microsoft 4437 : 39011 : 11.4%
IBM 1413 : 115,000 : 2.1%
HP 520 : 150,000 : 0.035%
Apple 291 : 17,787 : 0.51%

Re:The thing about IBM

[timeOday]

Supply Chain News: For First Time in More than 100 Years, US Set to Lose Place as World's Largest Manufacturer.

Most knowledgeable observers knew the day was coming soon, but now the researchers at Global Insight say that the US will lose its position as the world's largest manufacturer to China in 2009 - some four years earlier than the firm had predicted previously.

In research done for the Financial Times, Global Insight now says that the US will retain the position it has held for more than 100 years in 2008, but that the combination of China's continued growth and the slowing US economy will create a shift in rankings the following year.

For 2008, Global Insight says the US will produce 16.9% of global value-added factory output, with China at 15%. In 2009, however, China's global share should rise to 17%, with the US having a 16% share.

The numbers do not reflect absolute levels of manufacturing output, but rather relative ones. So, the US has been losing global manufacturing market share even as its own factory volumes rise, but not nearly as quickly as China's growth.

To show how fast the situation is changing, in 2007 the US had a 20% share of global manufacturing to just 13.2% for China. China will have closed that 7% gap in just two years.

Just last year, Global Insight economists had predicted that the US would retain the top position until 2013, but a large downward revision in likely output this year and next is expected to cause the US to slip more quickly than had been expected. A faster than expected economic recovery - or a slow down in the Chinese economy - could enable the US to keep the crown for another year or two.

But fundamentals, including population size differences, the continuing shift of the US to a more services-based economy, and continued migration generally of manufacturing to lower cost countries, means the change was inevitable at some point. Manufacturing represented 37.1% of Chinese Gross Domestic Product in 2007, for example, versus just 13.4% for the US.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

From parent's parent (number of H1-Bs hired in 2008):
Microsoft: 4437
IBM: 1413
Hewlett-Packard: 520
Apple Computer: 291

Extra data (total employees in 2008):
Microsoft: 89,809 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft)
IBM: 398,445 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibm)
Hewlett-Packard: 321,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewlett-Packard)
Apple Computer: 35,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_computer)

Percentage total employees made up of recent H1Bs:
Microsoft: 4.9%
IBM: 0.35%
Hewlett-Packard: 0.16%
Apple Computer: 0.83%

Conclusion:
Microsoft is definitely the biggest H1B player.
Apple is several times more H1B oriented than IBM.

Cheers,

Matt

Re:The thing about IBM

[pwizard2]

As they say, there is no reason to prop up the buggy whip makers. If there are not enough jobs to go around, find a different industry, it happens. You'll probably end up happier anyway.

Like I said, that can only happen so much, and the pie gets smaller and smaller each time. It's not like there is an infinite amount of jobs and they merely get shuffled around between industries. Besides, not everyone has the flexibility to jump into a new industry at any given time. (when you're young and single, it's not too difficult, but try doing it when you have a family to support)

Protectionism has been shown over and over again to be a bad idea. The best thing to do is help these developing countries raise their standard of living, then there will be no point to outsource to them. They can have their own industry serving their own, and we can have our industry serving us.

I'm not saying that protectionism is an ideal strategy, but it's better than giving away our standard of living while getting nothing in return. (unless you're a company exec) If jobs flow out of a country, it's a parasitic drain on that country's citizens. If a country wants to improve its situation, then it should have to build it from the bottom up, no matter how long it takes.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Like I said, that can only happen so much, and the pie gets smaller and smaller each time. It's not like there is an infinite amount of jobs and they merely get shuffled around between industries.

Now wait, it's this sort of misconception that makes people start to think protectionism is a good idea. Do you realize that there are more jobs in the US than there were 20 years ago? Despite advances like robots and computers making us more efficient, and things like outsourcing, there are still more jobs. This is the way humans are: when it appears we have nothing left to do, we find something new and more interesting to do. I sure don't lament the loss of all the farming jobs from the invention of the tractor. It was kind of lame for my grandpa, who had to get trained in a non-farming skill, but he got paid more working for the phone company than he ever would have farming.

I'm not saying that protectionism is an ideal strategy, but it's better than giving away our standard of living while getting nothing in return.

You will always lose from protectionism in the long term, and often in the short term. The best strategy is to help these countries improve their standard of living, until there is no point in outsourcing because it costs just as much there. Then they can take care of their own programming needs, and we can take care of our own programming needs.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Interesting article, but my point still stands: the US is not 'behind' the world, according to your article, the US still produces 17% of the worlds global value-added factory output. For a country that has less than 5% of the world's population, that's not bad, especially considering it is only a portion of our economy.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Possibly an important distinction there might be the difference between American employees and foreign employees. I believe nearly two thirds of IBM's employees are working outside the US.

Re:The thing about IBM

[pwizard2]

Now wait, it's this sort of misconception that makes people start to think protectionism is a good idea. Do you realize that there are more jobs in the US than there were 20 years ago? Despite advances like robots and computers making us more efficient, and things like outsourcing, there are still more jobs. This is the way humans are: when it appears we have nothing left to do, we find something new and more interesting to do. I sure don't lament the loss of all the farming jobs from the invention of the tractor. It was kind of lame for my grandpa, who had to get trained in a non-farming skill, but he got paid more working for the phone company than he ever would have farming.

But how does that work in a bad economy? I know lots of people who have lost jobs in the past six months, and only one who has been hired during that time. (and he was out of work for over a year) What you describe sounds like it could only work effectively in good times.

You will always lose from protectionism in the long term, and often in the short term. The best strategy is to help these countries improve their standard of living, until there is no point in outsourcing because it costs just as much there. Then they can take care of their own programming needs, and we can take care of our own programming needs.

How long will that take, and what are people supposed to do in the meantime? Conditions won't equalize like you suggest until there are no poor countries left. Even if India and China develop a standard of living equal to the US, there would still be plenty of poor countries left, including most of Africa. It will take decades (if not centuries) to spread everything around equally, and by then some formerly rich countries may have become poor. Where does it end?

Re:The thing about IBM

[hot soldering iron]

I've got Karma to burn, and you just hit a sore spot for me, MoFo. My wife and I are both degreed electronics techs, worked in aerospace, and TOGETHER brought in $70K for a few months, then 9/11 happened, her job got off-shored, I got laid-off and informed I was "over qualified". I was out of work for almost 2 years, lost our home and cars, my credit has been wrecked for years, I've had to change my career and start over, yada, yada, yada...

We've had to live in my parents basement, move into a rural area, and finally live in a 20 year-old single-wide trailer and raising 3 kids (one special-needs) on $24K.

If you were standing in front of me I'd stab you in the eye.

Re:The thing about IBM

[hot soldering iron]

That's for sure, 'cause those burgers won't flip themselves!

Re:The thing about IBM

[0ld_d0g]

The simple thing is this. H1-B's comming to the US buy a car, house, TV, etc, etc. Bottom line they have to spend a lot when the move here. Its cheaper from the governments point of view to let the US workers sit and collect unemployment while keeping a steady flow of H1-Bs comming in and then kicking them out once their 6 year term is up.

Purely from an economic point of view, H1-B's are a net positive.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, yeah, but the germane point is, what percentage of American workers are H1-B's? And what's the total percentage of American workers v. foreign workers? IBM may have 398,445 employees - but only about 120,000 in the US. HP has likewise ratios. Factoring in foreign workers outside of the US kind of misses the point.

Re:The thing about IBM

[BrokenHalo]

...If it means hundreds of deaths, they'll do it....

Well, that's because nobody has thought to stop them.

To all intents and purposes, corporations are able to act exactly as an individual might given sufficient influence and resources. The difference is that most existing legal systems do not hold corporations culpable in the same way as they do an individual. It would be a refreshing change if directors of companies guilty of flagrant abuses occasioning death or injury could be subjected to the same custodial penalties as an individual, but that is just not going to happen in a legal system that values property over human life or rights.

Re:The thing about IBM

[timeOday]

the US still produces 17% of the worlds global value-added factory output. For a country that has less than 5% of the world's population, that's not bad

But that share dropped by approx. 50% in only 10 years, and there's no end in sight.

What if foreign investors reduce their holdings of US dollars by 50% over the next 10 years? What if we have to cut oil consumption by 50% over the next 10 years? We have a diverse economy and not everything will drop by 50%, but those things could. I think our ability to afford imported stuff - and that includes everything at WalMart, not to mention gasoline - is about to go down, permanently.

Re:The thing about IBM

[BrokenHalo]

...and the pie gets smaller and smaller each time

Talking of pies, that reminds me of this morning's fortune cookie:

In "King Henry VI, Part II," Shakespeare has Dick Butcher suggest to his fellow anti-establishment rabble-rousers, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." That action may be extreme but a similar sentiment was expressed by Thomas K. Connellan, president of The Management Group, Inc. Speaking to business executives in Chicago and quoted in Automotive News, Connellan attributed a measure of America's falling productivity to an excess of attorneys and accountants, and a dearth of production experts. Lawyers and accountants "do not make the economic pie any bigger; they only figure out how the pie gets divided. Neither profession provides any added value to product."
According to Connellan, the highly productive Japanese society has 10 lawyers and 30 accountants per 100,000 population. The U.S. has 200 lawyers and 700 accountants. This suggests that "the U.S. proportion of pie-bakers and pie-dividers is way out of whack." Could Dick Butcher have been an efficiency expert?
-- Motor Trend, May 1983

Re:The thing about IBM

[Alpha830RulZ]

But how does that work in a bad economy?

I dunno, let's look at history. See this

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless the employee counts are wrong that should be:

Microsoft: 4437/57,588 : 7%
Apple Computer: 291/20,000 : 1.45%
IBM: 1413/130,000 : 1%
Hewlett-Packard: 520/65,000 : 0.8%

(ie. apple is 1.45% & HP 0.8% - 1% isn't meaningful, it could be 0.1 or 0.99%)

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Yeah, but I rounded in order to not give the impression that the numbers were more accurate than they are. There are issues like how many are actually in the US, how old they are compared to the other guy's numbers, and how many are actually employed, ie how accurate the company was when they reported them.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

You should list what those numbers are as percentages of their total workforce. It would be interesting.

And add in H1B and L1 contractors.
During the tech boom the numbers of these were much higher than H1B employees hired directly by the companies.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

China has been working for America essentially in exchange for.......paper. It's been kind of nice for us because we've gotten something for nothing. Eventually they will not want to work for so little money, and their money will gain value compared to ours, and cheap consumer goods will not be so cheap anymore. There is a high probability of some accelerated inflation in the next decade. That will be nice if you have debt (like the national government), but if you have cash, you will want to protect it by putting it in some kind of investment. Stocks and bonds typically perform relatively well against inflation, and for extra security (without the uncertainty of investing in gold, for example), you can buy treasury inflation protected securities.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Rounding is fine, however 1.45% for Apple should not round to 1% in my experience. My second point was that "1%" for HP could be interpreted as meaning "insignificant compared to the other figures" whereas 0.8% compared to 1% is actually quite significant.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

But how does that work in a bad economy? I know lots of people who have lost jobs in the past six months, and only one who has been hired during that time. (and he was out of work for over a year) What you describe sounds like it could only work effectively in good times.

I can't speak for your friends (are they enjoying their unemployment checks? I would be), but in the last year and a half one of my cousins lost his landscaping job and became a border patrol officer, and another lost his job as an architect and became a prison guard. My coworker and I lost our jobs two months ago and we've both started new careers as consultants (and I never want to go back: once you've tasted freedom, you never want to return to being a wage slave).

As for your other question, you can do your own economics research, but here is a sample: think about what makes the United States rich. The US is rich because we produce a lot, more per capita than any other country. As long as we keep producing, we will remain rich. A lot of things that separate us from developing countries are things like infrastructure: we have one of the most efficient transportation networks in the world. Or think of our water supply, it comes out of the tap clean and pure, and that is not something that will change unless we stop maintaining it. And we have electricity that runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's not true of many developing countries.

And that is what it all comes down to, as long as we are producing things worth buying, the economy will continue to grow, and there will be work. Of course, if you are not willing to figure out what other people need, and not willing to find a way to produce it (which is the essence of being an entrepreneur), then you will be at the mercy of someone else to figure it out for you. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, being an entrepreneur is hard.

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Rounded to the nearest percent, 1.45% will always round down to 1%. Unless I learned how to do rounding wrong in grade school.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

But not everyone has the physical stamina, the immune system, and tolerance for muck as Mike Rowe. Think of the office workers!

Re:The thing about IBM

[DNS-and-BIND]

Hey buddy - you've got a spot there, your racism is showing.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Another, completely]

It's an interesting point, but I would just add that people on H1-B aren't off-shored. They are spending their money in the United States, contributing to the domestic economy, and usually bringing in education that was subsidized by foreign governments.

You don't need any particular government approval to send work abroad; you only need to go through all the H1-B paperwork if you want to bring a skilled person into the United States. Just sending the money so that person can do the work elsewhere is far easier all around, and that contrast grows with every new effort to keep the foreigners out, making the decision to off-shore easier.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Company : H1B/Total Employees : Percentage

Microsoft: 4437/57,588 : 7%

IBM: 1413/130,000 : 1%

Hewlett-Packard: 520/65,000 : <1%

Apple Computer: 291/20,000 : <1%

Ummm those numbers aren't correct

Microsoft = 7.70%
IBM = 1.09%
HP = 0.80%
Apple = 1.46%

Sorry to be nit-picky but I just though that the less than 1% thing made Apple look significantly better than IBM when they aren't (well at least not in percentage of H1B terms).

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft 4437 : 39011 : 11.4%
IBM 1413 : 115,000 : 2.1%
HP 520 : 150,000 : 0.035%
Apple 291 : 17,787 : 0.51%

Grade: D, now go back to school.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, when you call their tech support, you'll reliably get connected with someone who speaks English.

You mean your English. There are a lot of native English speaking Indians and Pakis.

I'm not an native English speaker (because of my native Swedish dialect, my "English is closer to Old English (a really dumbed down pidgin consisting mostly of Old Norse and Old French, languages which also happens to have influenced Swedish) then any modern dialect), but one thing is certain, there are a lot of different languages that is called English. The core language that most native speakers (or even most native speakers within a specific profession) share is very small and almost useless.

In my part of the world we wouldn't dream of calling Swedish, Norse, Danish, Faeroeic or Icelandic one language. But "English speakers" call their different languages "English", despite the fact that their dialects have less in common then the previous mentioned Nordic languages.

Re:The thing about IBM

[blind biker]

Good point.

But in addition to such (remarkable albeit unprobable) change in the laws, it would be also important to increase awareness of the phenomenon of psychopathy - in my experience, most people just can't fathom the existence of unredeemable people without any conscience, capable of looking you straight in the eyes while lying.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Acer500]

when you call their tech support, you'll reliably get connected with someone who speaks English.

Just FYI: speaking fluent English != being a good programmer/designer/whatever (though in programming in particular, it's a good idea). In China, people over 30 don't speak English because it was BANNED, not because they're not intelligent.

And I'd expect most of those H1Bs to speak fluent English anyways.

Re:The thing about IBM

[drsquare]

How much do the workers get paid in Apple's Chinese ipod factories? Maybe Microsoft should be commended for hiring people based on ability rather than nationality.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct - but if you check your original post Apple is listed as "less than" 1% (it looks like I only wrote 1% because Slashdot ate my "less than" character :( ). I still think one decimal point is more useful for comparison (ie. 7.7, 1.5, 1.0, 0.8).

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

You hit the nail on the head. By moving these high paying jobs offshore one is systematicly killing off the customer base. In the end, the smart companies have destroyed themselves because the mcjobs that the laid-off workers took don't pay enough to support what used to be the middle class lifestyle. The US has too many examples of this process.

Re:The thing about IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, if it upsets you that much, post your address and we'll be glad to mail you a hankie. A nice pink one to go with your politics.

Re:The thing about IBM

[TheRaven64]

Depends on the protectionism. Banning imports is generally bad, but what about banning imports from factories that pay less than a minimum wage, or from areas with environmental laws that don't meet certain standards? Set them quite low now, with a fixed increment over the next 20 years.

Re:The thing about IBM

[BrokenHalo]

...most people just can't fathom the existence of unredeemable people without any conscience, capable of looking you straight in the eyes while lying.

Like politicians, you mean? :-}

Re:The thing about IBM

[phantomfive]

Yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have put less than. One decimal point isn't more useful because it isn't accurate, because the original numbers weren't accurate enough.

Re:The thing about IBM

[blind biker]

That's exactly what I mean. Check it out: most psychopaths are very charismatic people, and many if not most politicians are cery charismatic people. Also, they are very interested in their own wealth and power and don't give two shits about the well-being of others - but they pretend to, very aptly.

Still, politicians are very carefully monitored, and only the most intelligent psychopaths make it to the top (unlike in corporations, where corporate psychopaths do make it to the top very easily). And as for examples of top-politician psychopaths, I will mention Stalin, Hitler, Milosevic, Pol Pot, Gerhard Schröeder, Vladimir Putin. All these men have been or still are extremely popular with the masses. Stalin, for instance, is still widely loved among Russians, in spite of the fact that his policies caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of their connationals even before WW2, and then millions of them after WW2.

Jumped the gun?

[gollito]

I think somebody jumped the gun on this one. April fools anyone?

Re:Jumped the gun?

[sohp]

MOD PARENT UP. /. got rolled.

Re:Jumped the gun?

[Froboz23]

No, this is real. You can search for patent application 20090083107 directly from the US Patent and Trademark Office. The USPTO isn't known for their sense of humor.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html

Re:Jumped the gun?

[nervouscat]

IBM is now withdrawing the patent application.

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090331/BIZ/903310326

Maybe IBM got scolded by Lou Dobbs. :-)

Application #20090083107

[dattaway]

No wonder why they want to outsource That's a big number. In my day, patents were slowly incrementing in the 7 figure range. I can't wait until they hire monkeys to type up more applications. IBM made the best typewriters...

Re:Application #20090083107

[Tubal-Cain]

Looks to me like a five digit number with the year dropped in front.

Re:Application #20090083107

[sir_eccles]

Granted patent numbers still are in the 7 figure range, I think we're around 7,500,000 ish.

Patent applications have a different numbering system that has the application year as a prefix. This new system only started around 2001.

Re:Application #20090083107

[Dachannien]

Technically, the number is for a Patent Application Publication. The application itself has a different number, in this case, 11/860336.

If it issues, it'll get a third number - the patent number - which, as the parent poster mentioned, is currently somewhere just barely above 7,500,000.

Re:Application #20090083107

[Theaetetus]

No wonder why they want to outsource That's a big number. In my day, patents were slowly incrementing in the 7 figure range. I can't wait until they hire monkeys to type up more applications. IBM made the best typewriters...

That's an application publication number. Not the same thing by a long shot. Patents are still in the 7-figure range.

exterminate, exterminate... beep.

[girlintraining]

The patent is invalid. Everybody knows you need Crisco to do offshoring right. :\

Re:exterminate, exterminate... beep.

[maxume]

If you are courteous enough to use lubrication, you might as well do it right and use something water based.

Bullet dodging armor

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we know why IBM was working on this. Let's face it, you don't fuck over that many people without winding up with somebody gunning for you. Being an IBM executive in this country sure isn't going to get you much love for a long, long time to come.

Re:Bullet dodging armor

[HanzoSpam]

Now we know why IBM was working on this. Let's face it, you don't fuck over that many people without winding up with somebody gunning for you. Being an IBM executive in this country sure isn't going to get you much love for a long, long time to come.

I'm all for letting them leave. That's probably the first original idea they've had in over a decade. Seriously, when was the last time they introduced a product the invented themselves, rather than buying? Get 'em outta here. Give the newer companies a chance to succeed without getting swallowed up and dismantled by the IBM and Microsoft type companies.

Bad Timing

[Anonymous Coward]

Patenting offshoring just as globalization collapses and protectionism is gaining favour. Talk about closing the barn door after the horse has bolted...

What wasn't in the summary

[lastchance_000]

Project Match, an IBM offshoring initiative the Standard reported on last month, offers U.S. employees the chance to stay with IBM by relocating to another country, to work in an IBM regional division at local wage rates. IBM has roughly 400,000 employees in 170 countries. As of early February, fewer than ten employees had shown interest in the program.

Re:What wasn't in the summary

[HanzoSpam]

It's a good thing you can't patent being a jagoff. They'd have a natural monopoly.

Re:What wasn't in the summary

[Mr. Sanity]

Wow, who'd have thought that employees wouldn't want to accept a transfer that locks them into a one-way move to another country? A country where IBM, a company that lays off workers in every market condition, will not be beholden to WARN-style laws? A country where the prevailing pay rate for the position would make returning to America incredibly (or impossibly) costly without people here to put you up until you get back on your feet? Yeah, I can see why few people would take up such a "great" opportunity.

Re:What wasn't in the summary

[MosesJones]

Probably more likely that its people from abroad, especially the EU, who really don't want to move to the US with its much less protective legislation. A smart US based IBM employee should be signing up for the move to France, Germany or Scandanavia, better healthcare, that isn't linked to your employer, better food (in France anyway) and a chance to completely change your perspective on life.

Now it would be interesting what the odds are on IBM allowing a US to France transfer.

Re:What wasn't in the summary

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Probably more likely that its people from abroad, especially the EU, who really don't want to move to the US with its much less protective legislation. A smart US based IBM employee should be signing up for the move to France, Germany or Scandanavia, better healthcare, that isn't linked to your employer, better food (in France anyway) and a chance to completely change your perspective on life.

Now it would be interesting what the odds are on IBM allowing a US to France transfer.

The article in the main post has a link to another article that names the countries involved. They are:

India, China, Brazil, Mexico, the Czech Republic, Russia, South Africa, Nigeria, and the United Arab Emirates.

Not any of the desirable countries you listed. And I used to work for a large French company I probably should not name, but we had some American employees who thought it would be "fun" to accept jobs with the company in France. Every single one of them that I knew returned somewhat disillusioned about living in France. There are good things and bad things about living anywhere, but the French are not always friendly to outsiders and it can take quite a while to make friends with them.

However, this same French employer outsourced our jobs in my department to Brazil. One of my co-workers offered to move to Brazil and pay 100% of the relocation costs himself if they would let him work there and they refused. IBM doesn't want to necessarily move Americans to those countries, although they will do so. They are basically hoping that natives (ie. Indians) will want to return home and work for IBM there rather than expecting Americans to move overseas for a gigantic pay cut.

Re:What wasn't in the summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that, in your mysterious conceit that the EU is so superior to the US, you got the underlying facts all wrong:

offers U.S. employees the chance to stay with IBM by relocating to another country

So the US employees are decidedly uninterested in moving elsewhere.

Re:What wasn't in the summary

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm one of those RAd (Resource Actioned - IBMs euphemism for laid off). Given two months to find a job internally, or externally.

Checking the job listings board... the only places outside the US that are really hiring are BRIC (Brazil, Russian, India, and China). I would consider working in France (specifically Paris)... if there were jobs that that I was qualified for.

for the win

[Xenious]

Maybe if we let IBM patent it then everyone else will stop doing it?

Re:for the win

[simplexion]

Now that would be awesome!

Re:for the win

[Trojan35]

Offshoring is good when done right.

However, many companies that start embracing offshoring are doing it out of desperation... and that usually is just as much a failure as the strategies that got them into their mess in the first place.

Re:for the win

[Vitriol Angst]

Maybe if we let IBM patent it then everyone else will stop doing it?
That was my first thought.

This should be under the topic of "Examples of Capitalism Eating Its Own."

If they can patent it, it will do what all IP law seems to do for innovation -- discourage it and bottle it up in court.

"Sorry, Hewlett Packard, You are going to have to license with IBM to ship that job overseas."

As usual, there are people defending this practice. But finally, we have such people supporting a practice that will actually hurt multinational corporations raping of wages. So Kudos to IBM for stopping greed and evil with more greed and evil.

This provides for an entirely new strategy

[pugugly]

I'm patenting a "Method for doing business without regard to ethical or moral principles."

The cool thing is that patent trolls now have to come to me first - take that assholes!!!!

"Oh my how the money rolls in!"

Pug

Its a defensive patent...

[Snotman]

to be used against unscrupulous companies that use offshoring to lower operations costs that are incurred by over-paid US engineers, programmers, and HR(aren't they dirt cheap anyway?).

It is like patenting slavery

[linzeal]

Slavery, both ancient and modern has been only been successful in places where its implementation is predicated by state sanction and overwhelming force if threatened. China, India and SE Asia are developing the nascent foundations of worker's unions and it would not be surprising if this populist sentiment will rise to the point where they are at the throats of their governments with calls for better working conditions, human rights and a greater sharing in the financial rewards. Currently offshoring in manufacturing works on the premise that you have a person making 1/10th to 1/1000th of the wage of the people who ship, retail, and design the products. Does that sound sustainable to you?

    Just because an idea makes immediate quantitative financial sense for a select few be them landholders or shareholders, the long term economic value of a process is something quite different. It is very much like the difference between weather and climate where one can model accurately the weather systems and their effect on a specific locale for a few days but can't extrapolate that knowledge beyond a certain limit either geographically half-way around the world or temporally years or decades into the future.

  As these country's workers gain skills and begin automating the manufacturing processes and need less people in manufacturing both for local needs and export and begin to design and manufacture more for the local markets we are going to see less and less of a world populated with crap designed for Americans and built by others. To expect the rest of the world to serve America's aggrandized view of itself for much longer at the rates of slavery is foolish and for IBM to attempt to capitalize upon an idea with 1000's of years of prior art is just bad patent law and needs to be regulated against.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[Renraku]

Leave China out of this. They have the resources and know-how to put down any kind of revolution or protest. At best they'd ignore the protesters, and at worse they'd just mow them down with a few machine guns.

India, maybe I can see. India isn't itself wholly united yet, though, and they've been through some pretty rough times. It'd be a miracle if the people could unite enough to demand better wages. But look at what happens if they do. Will the companies stay in India, knowing that they might have to pay competing wages for the same terrible service? Nope. They'll be off to find another country to exploit. So the workers might be reluctant..after all, working 12 hours a day to stay fed and clothed is better than working 0 hours a day and starving.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[tchdab1]

You don't need nearly the leverage of 1/100th or 1/10th the wage difference.
IBM appears to make it work with as little as 2/3 (66%) of a wage difference.
In many cases I'm working with 20-year olds in that foreign country, with little experience, and I'm trying to help them learn and get by on that wage of theirs which is a fraction of mine with over 25 years experience.
And I guess it's pretty similar to if the new worker was a college grad here in the US, but they're not.
I look at the empty desks of the people who were here a few months or years ago, who are now replaced by the lower-wage person thousands of miles away.
There is something wrong.
Spreading the wealth around the world is not the wrong thing, just as helping a new worker, no matter where they are, is not the wrong thing.
The wrong thing is dumping the existing good person because of the wage difference (or labor law difference, or environmental law difference), and leaving any responsibility or accountability for them behind.
Is Capitalism another way of never having to say you're sorry?

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[phantomfive]

Just because an idea makes immediate quantitative financial sense for a select few be them landholders or shareholders, the long term economic value of a process is something quite different.

You're view only makes sense as long as the land or shares have value, and are limited. Where does the value from the shares come from? It comes from what is produced.

Fortunately, there is no lock-hold on production, especially in the software industry. What is happening to those people who've lost their jobs and money in the last year or so? A lot of them are starting their own companies. This is going to be competition for IBM. Hopefully IBM can keep up.

As long as Americans are capable of producing things of value, there will be no problem competing with China and India. So what if IBM wants to help India produce more things of value? The more people are producing, then the more valuable stuff there is for all of us to have.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[mabhatter654]

I certainly expect China to step up and take care of the workers unions pretty quickly.. after all the workers already have the Communist party to protect the brotherhood.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[linzeal]

The only reason this system works is because of immense and egregious human rights abuses in these countries, lack of pollution and resource depletion/renewal regulation.

India has one of the highest amount of child malnourishment in the world. This has actually increased since engineering offshoring began in earnest so the idea of wealth redistribution occurring between countries raising the standard of living in general is wrong.

China has half of its people living in poverty while allowing kleptocracies in Hong Kong and in mainland China to run rampant. Children in some factory towns are being born with 10x the amount of lead the World Health Organization says can lead to permanent brain damage because mothers in these factories making American crap are forced to work well into their 8th month of preganancy around dangerous chemicals inside the factory and breathe the air and drink the water that is polluted from them when at home.

IF the price of what it is going to cost to clean up these countries after we exploit them for labor and resources and a premium were put upon the human rights of those workers than the US and Europe would like a pretty good deal economically. Instead we have allowed the proponents of free-market capitalism to be treated as if their word was inviolate and any argument against them to be treated as an act of treason against the US way of life. Well maybe the US way of life should0 be held accountable for a lot of the mess we are in today and those whom some would of considered prophets when they made predictions about the way globalization would be hindered if we enforced 1st world environmental, human and worker's rights on 3rd world countries has brought us to this dire impasse where the rights of billions are being ransomed for the privileges of millions.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure where you pulled that out of. India has had very organized and very powerful labor unions for the last 60 years or more. And organized labor in India is required to offer retirement and other benefits through a goverment mandated and controlled "Provident Fund" for many years now.
The problem is the lack of jobs compared to the population. For the people that do have proper jobs, the conditions are not really worse off like you make it out to be!

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as Americans are capable of producing things of value, there will be no problem competing with China and India. So what if IBM wants to help India produce more things of value? The more people are producing, then the more valuable stuff there is for all of us to have.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

You sound just like the shit stain economists who have no idea what's next, despite their Ivy league Phds. Go fuck yourself.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[Qrlx]

So what if IBM wants to help India produce more things of value?

You're trying to tell us altruism, not cost-cutting, is the motivation for globalization?

I want some of what you're smoking.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[Anonymous Coward]

working 12 hours a day to stay fed and clothed is better than working 0 hours a day and starving

And being shot while protesting for better wages is better than starving

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[phantomfive]

So what if IBM wants to help India produce more things of value?

Yes they do, otherwise what would they get out of it?

You're trying to tell us altruism, not cost-cutting, is the motivation for globalization?

No, but do you have a better way? It sure beats protectionism.

Re:It is like patenting slavery

[linzeal]

How many "Proper Jobs" are there compared to rural workers, forced labor and even child labor in India? How many jobs that are being off-shored there have these benefits? My friend just returned from India after being laid off with only severance and a 401k to get him back to the states. Organized labor sounds like Union Shops in the US and depending on how you read the 2000 statistics less than 10% of India is unionized right now.

Bad summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The application only published on March 26. It was filed in 2007. Note to anyone posting a patent or application: scroll down, please.

Also, the link to the patent office in the summary doesn't work for me.

Solving US unemployement, one patent a time

[gmuslera]

Too bad someone will give some prior art example as soon IBM try to enforce it.

Journalistic integrity, FFS

[subreality]

They are trying to patent a *technique for evaluating* offshoring.

I love reading /. for the news, but the constant need to deliberately misinterpret the news to spin it into some kind of hysteria is tiresome... This place is Fox for Nerds, News You Can Read Somewhere Between the Lines.

Re:Journalistic integrity, FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

There is only one sentence with the words "Slashdot", "journalistic", and "integrity" in it that makes sense: "Slashdot has no journalistic integrity".

Alternatively:

Slashdot? Haha. Journalistic? Hahahaha. Integrity? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAOMGWTFLOLBBQROTFLMAOHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Re:Journalistic integrity, FFS

[subreality]

Who the heck modded this funny? I'm perfectly serious.

Re:Journalistic integrity, FFS

[guyminuslife]

There is only one sentence with the words "Slashdot", "journalistic", and "integrity" in it that makes sense

Crap, I thought it was, "Slashdot structure saved from invasive integrity-intensive jumping by journalistic jaguars."

Okay, really?

[coppro]

Next thing you know, they're going to patent patenting. Actually, even better: they'll patent patents. At least then maybe the American government will review the law.

Re:Okay, really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, maybe SCO can get in on this too!

Re:Okay, really?

[moofmonkey]

Well, once I get a patent awarded for a method of signaling, by "making a fist with the palm facing the signaler, then raising the middle finger toward the signalee", I will use it to signal to IBM what I think of their patent.

Tariffs

[Renraku]

Its about time that we taxed software and support from US companies that outsource.

You want to outsource your programmers or call center to India? That's just fine. Now show us how many hours your foreign staff has worked. Alright, now we're going to tax you so much that you end up paying 2/3rds of what you would have paid if you had stayed in the USA. We're putting this money towards unemployment benefits and other social programs, to offset the number of workers you dumped so you could hire someone to do it for five dollars a day.

Re:Tariffs

[Anonymous Coward]

Great idea. Then foreign software companies could charge much less for software since they wouldn't be liable for the tax and therefore be given a leg up on US software companies. Protectionism doesn't work.

Re:Tariffs

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you are trying to be funny here, because that was how most of the world used to work, till the US used it's muscle to tear down tarriffs and barriers. Countries like India did not have any means to compete with the capital intensive manufacturing like automobiles and other consumables that the US used to produce. Well, now, all that lobbying and bribing for reciprocal removal of tariffs in the belief that we could sell our goods has come back to haunt us.

The tide has changed and now we want tariffs on imports? That is truly a joke, if countries impose tariffs on us too, that will pretty much be the end of the American economy...

Re:Tariffs

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, then your foreign competitors sell products much cheaper, your faithless citizens buy them, and all your domestic businesses go toes up.

Sure would be terrible if that happ...oh wait, it already did. Sucks to be you, USians. LOL

Re:Tariffs

[DNS-and-BIND]

Nah, he's just another idiot who doesn't understand how the world works. My first thought on the comment was "he just reinvented the tariff. Probably thinks it a great innovation, as well!" Free trade has been of enormous benefit to the entire world, tariffs are such a pain in the ass to deal with in business.

Re:Tariffs

[drsquare]

That would just make companies hire the workers in India in the first place, without going to America at all. And it would open the floodgates to tit for tat protectionism.

Re:Tariffs

[Anonymous Coward]

About the only thing that the US exports to China and India now are some raw materials that they lack. Putting tariffs on them would hurt them more than us. Tariffs might be an old idea and anti-capitalist, but at a certain point it's not about supporting billionaires or being part of the global community, but about insuring that your country and your children survive.

transfer overseas

[roc97007]

> it reportedly plans to lay off thousands of employees and has even started a program to have IBM workers transfer to other countries at local wages.

I suspect that as a business practice this can be made to look really good on a spreadsheet, but is going to monumentally suck in real life, and not just for the employees relocated to Parakou.

Sad state of the world we now live in...

[Anonymous Coward]

"The US patent system is just broken!!"

Its only broken if we live in a true Democracy. Its totally fine (in the eyes of the ruling elite) if we live in a Plutocracy (ruled by the rich), as then, the people in power, the ones who make the rules, and their rich friends can then buy and control everything (and everyone) with patents and lawyers.

Worse still, as a Plutocracy becomes more extreme it becomes a Kleptocracy (ruled by thieves). After all, its not as if the people who write the laws and their friends in power are giving millions of tax payers money to their rich friends, so they and their friends can prop up their rich lifestyles, while millions suffer the consequences. (Plus few of the rich will be brought to justice for the suffering they cause (after all, their rich friends who write the laws, choose what is considered the law)).

The point is, its far worse than broken. The whole of society is distorted to serve the minority of rich and powerful at the expense (literally) of the majority of people. Therefore the patent system is broken as a symptom of a much larger problem, which is, we don't have a real Democracy (anywhere in the world) as everyone worldwide lives in Plutocracies. Worse still, since the economic problems started, its showing we are at times in a Kleptocracy. It means most of the time, we have been near the extremes of a Plutocracy, which in hindsight makes sense, as the ones in power push as far as they can get away with, until large numbers of people start to see huge problems. Then the ones in power change tactics and move into other areas people can't see, until they become extreme and so on. Currently the patent system is becoming extreme, but its nothing compared with the money now openly flowing around the world, from rich to rich, while millions of other people suffer. Thats new. They are now so openly helping themselves in a huge feeding frenzy they are saying is all for our good. Yeah right.

Re:Sad state of the world we now live in...

[thhamm]

of course everything is broken. but noone wants to admit it (especially you, you ac). it's safer to at least *try* to win the competition than to really challenge it in itself.

I hope it works

[JackieBrown]

and IBM charge a ridiculous fee for those buisness that want to "use" this patent.

Re:I hope it works

[hackingbear]

then we should wish they get this patent and actually charge other businesses ridiculously for outsourcing; most of us don't work for IBM anyway, so IBM will help you keep your job. go IBM!

The best patent on the planet!

well, they did perfect it

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll bet a paycheck that IBM are some of the original H1B lobbyers

Hope in Obama

[edivad]

I really hope Obama will keep up on what he promised during the campaign, and take proper action towards companies the privilege outsourcing their jobs.

Economic Terrorism

[Neanderthal Ninny]

IBM and other companies that are affiliated with Wall Street are nothing better than economic terrorist.

Dear IBM

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear IBM,

I have no idea what part of my business is most important to me. Please take my money and make recommendations as to what part of my business I'm going to outsource to you. Please understand that I really don't know where in the world gives the best value for performing the sort of tasks I'll be outsourcing. Kindly inform me as to whether I should be giving you money to outsource in a third world country, or whether I should be giving you more money to have you do this work for me in a first world country.

Please get back to me at the earliest, this money is burning a hole in my pocket.

Regards,
Management

this post has arrived

[postmortem]

..two days early.

Yest, it is that much ridiculous that I doubt we'll have something better for the Fool's day.

Not too suprising to me

[nitro77]

I worked for a large semiconductor company in the R&D group. We had top Phd's from around the world. Some of the Phds would sit in their office and only write patents. They would receive $10,000 bonus for each patent that was granted. This bonus applied to anyone in the company. I know of at least one case where a lowly tech support person received a bonus.

Companies make very much money on patents. My predecessor had to restore five year old tape backups to help win a case in court. The case was worth hundreds of millions plus license fees.

I am sure that IBM also have patent incentives. If the patents lawyers think they can get money, they will submit the patent.

I.B.M

[Jane Q. Public]

U.B.M

We all B.M. for I.B.M.

Don't freetards like working for free?

[Anonymous Coward]

So this has got to be a boost then!! Actually getting paid?? Whodathunk//

Won't get that far

[tuxgeek]

2 words: Prior Art

Re:Won't get that far

[morgan_greywolf]

I got three better words: In re Bilski.

didnt IBM get the note?

[scientus]

This is a post-Bilski world. This shit is invalid.

Re:didnt IBM get the note?

[morgan_greywolf]

Didn't you get the memo? IBM hires the Nazgul to be their lawyers. A little company in Utah found this out the hard way.

Implications

[kheldan]

So if they're granted the patent, does that mean we can openly and vigorously blame IBM for all the jobs lost to outsourcing? I smell lawsuit!

Filing date is not publication date

[Anonymous Coward]

The application is not "dated." The patent application was published on March 26, 2009.

The filing date of the application is September 24, 2007.

The filing date is the critical date for prior art purposes.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of history....

[morgan_greywolf]

They are now so openly helping themselves in a huge feeding frenzy they are saying is all for our good. Yeah right.

Yeah, but any idea what happened to Marie Antoinette after she adopted this very attitude?

Let's just say she may have lost her head ...

is it possible

[Anonymous Coward]

It must be a some sort of a Guinness record of public disgust with IBM CEOs...
I wonder just out of curiosity - is it theoretically possible to hate IBM even more?
I cannot imagine using any IBM product - zilch; I cannot imagine I would shake hands with any IBM CEOs. If I absolutely had to, I would most likely throw up.

Re:is it possible

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding. A tree, a rope, Sam Palmisano. Some assembly required.

Re:Those who fail to learn the lessons of history.

[BrokenHalo]

Hmmmm. I wonder if IBM are just getting this in 6 days early? ;-)

America turning to shit

[kaiwai]

With America turning to shit - you'd think that American citizens would dive at this opportunity:

"has even started a program to have IBM workers transfer to other countries at local wages."

The only downside, those of us living outside the US would have to put up with MORE americans and their whiny naisly voice.

How many IBMers drive Japanese cars..

[tjstork]

Yeah, all the IT people laugh at that overpriced, overfed GM autoworker. How dare they get paid $40 an hour to build cars! How ironic it is, that those programmers never realized that if a country could paid someone 1/8th US wages to build cars, that maybe they could pay someone to program computers at the same discount. The only way to protect your standard of living is to kick foreign competition out. The USA and EU should form an exclusive trading block, and just screw the rest of the world. That means you, India and China...

Re:How many IBMers drive Japanese cars..

[guruevi]

Except that that worker is a line worker doing very 'boring' jobs similar to a helpdesk line in the IT world which makes $12/hour tops. The actual wage of a GM line worker is around $25-30/hour but because you need so many of them that is very unsustainable in an economy where 'the other ones' do it at less than half the price. In what sane IT company does a first line helpdesk jockey earn $30/hour when you can hire 2 or 3 for that price?

Re:How many IBMers drive Japanese cars..

[tjstork]

Except that that worker is a line worker doing very 'boring' jobs similar to a helpdesk line in the IT world which makes $12/hour top?

I would argue that today's programming is almost as much assembly line taylorism as building a car is, and, programming is by far an easier job, because there's no physical labor, modern wizards make it pretty easy to put together basic data screens, you sit in an air conditioned building or even at home...

Bottom line is, if you think that you are somehow immune to international wage pressure because you are a programmer, you are pretty stupid. There's a billion people in all of NATO nations, and five billion in the rest of the world, and they all make less money than you.

It's only a matter of time.

Finally

[tthomas48]

A patent I can fully endorse. So IBM can corner the market on poorly developed spaghetti, while simultaneously removing the cost advantage to outsourcing by anyone else. The free market is better than regulation!

It has to be April 1st somewhere in the world.

[dweller_below]

I didn't know the patent office observed the April's Fool tradition. This explains EVERYTHING. Their calendars probably say "April Fools!" instead of "Wednesday".

It must be a joke. There is no way a business method patent on outsourcing can survive post Bilski.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Bilski

Miles

Protectionism fails.

[Anonymous Coward]

Protectionism fails... Besides, how many of those "Japanese" cars were made in North America?

B1H

[Tablizer]

plans to lay off thousands of employees and has even started a program to have IBM workers transfer to other countries at local wages

I have to at least give them kudos to provide such an option. But I'd really be pissed if the target country does not allow reverse visa workers (or something comparable). We should clamp down on such countries. They dump all their products and services on the US, but often have fits if things go the other way. A lot of 3rd-world countries are fair-weather "free" traders.
             

Conflicted

[Xylene2301]

I'm conflicted... How can I hope that IBM dries up & dies and succeeds at this simultaneously. If they succeed, even I might be able to get an IT job and on the other hand what a bunch of greedy corporate mofos.

Re:Ignorance is bliss

[Sadahari]

And might as well applicable to IBM, too. :-)

Protectionism WORKS.

[tjstork]

Protectionism fails.

Protectionism works. In fact, it works right now for Asian countries, worked quite well for the USA for over 100 years, and worked quite well for the UK before that. It works EVERYWHERE it has been used.

The fact is, the protectionism caused the Great Depression story is just that, a story, like Ghosts and Goblins. The cause of the Great Depression was monetary failure and if anything a run on the pound brought about by free trade precipitated that.

Time to kick the asian exporters out. They don't play fair to NATO, so screw them.

Re:Protectionism WORKS.

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT UP!

The first thing Alexander Hamilton did after the revolution was implement tariffs to protect America's fledgling industries. Hell, even Ronald Reagan implemented tariffs to protect American auto industries.

Cosmopolitans have never built any country. But I can think of quite a long list of them they've ruined.

Um... prior art.

[Max Littlemore]

Just sayin'

Slavery

[Joebert]

Would slavery count as prior art ?

Re:Slavery

[Ded Bob]

This feels more like indentured servitude. Unfortunately, both have prior art.

I hope they succeed and ...

[SL Baur]

and charge how every many trillions of US deficit in bad derivatives for every license.

APPLICATION ABANDONED

[AliasMarlowe]

Did anyone bother to look up application 11/860,336 on PAIR?
It was expressly abandoned by IBM on 30 March 2009 - before the USPTO had even assigned an examiner to the application.

Application was ABANDONED!

[AliasMarlowe]

I know this is Slashdot, but did anyone even bother to look up the application on the PAIR site?
It was expressly abandoned by IBM on 30 March 2009. The USPTO had not even assigned an examiner to the application.

Could be the best thing to ever happen to the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

If every company had to pay IBM a royalty to outsource, and it was costly enough, it might force the other companies to employ a USA workforce.

OMFG

[hesaigo999ca]

IBM is now 100% evil....no doubt about it, Google seems like the only other giant that hasn't followed in M$ footsteps. As if we can patent outsourcing, this will make every company that outsources seem like they are infringing on this patent.

Isn't there some sort of law that says if it is in general global use or being done already for many years by many people, you can not patent something....if not, I think I will patent wiping your ass after taking a dump and also wiping your nose after sneezing.

Employee's on the Moon

[cdpage]

I'm Patenting employee's on the moon, (in the name of my unborn child) so that should anyone want to pay anyone to work on the moon they have to pay my child first.

btw (sidenote for libertarians)

[Mateo_LeFou]

When I put this complaint forward about outsourcing/sweatshopping/etc., I generally get "Well, it's better than starving to death."

Maybe starving is worst, and sweatshops are bad. Microfinance is good, though. So don't make it a sweatshop-vs-starving argument.

See mpowr.org, and kiva.org if you want people around the world to do better than "not-starve"

Re:btw (sidenote for libertarians)

[hairyfeet]

Well I like to answer the "better than starving" argument with "we should be offering our poorer neighbors a friendly hand up, not paying an iron boot to keep them down". Because outsourcing is supporting some truly bad regimes by giving the "el presidente" types plenty of cash while the peasants get to enjoy lead, mercury, PCBs, dioxins,etc. And how is it "better than starving" if you poison their air and land so damned bad that it practically is unlivable?

It isn't like they can just clean this stuff up when the multinational goes somewhere else because they found they could save a nickel by going somewhere else. Just look at how many superfund sites there are in the US where some corp has stuck us with the bill for land that is no longer fit for human habitation. Do we really think the third world will EVER be able to recover all that poisoned land?

I think in the end we will look at the outsourcing to the third world for what it is: the exploitation of the weak by the rich and powerful. In the end this shit is just as evil as slave labor, child exploitation for sex and labor, and every other sick evil thing we have done to the helpless. Only unlike those others this will be killing long after the greedy bastards that dumped it have turned to dust. And folks wonder why so many hate the US?

Re:btw (sidenote for libertarians)

[Idiomatick]

When they go somewhere else that is a good sign for the country. Sure they paid with their health and land. But the fact that they are no longer cost effective means they are doing better on the global scheme than they originally were.

Does this not ... ?

[guysmilee]

Does this not simply outsource management decisions to a computer?

Not easier to get rich in America

[zstlaw]

There was a great NPR article a year or so ago that stated it was actually easier to become rich in Europe than in the US. For all we tout how one can get ahead in America there are very few people that have made their own fortunes. (I think you 1 in a million number is still right though)

I can not find that article (it was a radio program) But this article by J Mooneyham claims to become rich in the US you must be born rich, marry into money, or be a criminal. http://www.jmooneyham.com/your-true-chances-of-getting-rich.html and echoes what I remember hearing.

Basically self made millionaires are a statistical anomaly. America is a land where you can come and make your own moderate success, but becoming wildly rich is just not gonna happen.

I completely agree that the companies currently have more protection against competition than we consumers have guarantee of fair trade price. What are dvd-zones except a tool for creating artificial pricing structures.

Why can I not buy a zone free player and 2 dollar disks? Why can I not run an import/export company that imports cheap products to eliminate pricing imbalance? (See Lik-Sang being shut down over importing Sony products)

Problem is money is treated as free speech and a company can give more and can pursue a more targeted agenda than an individual.

Ugh!

[Belmont]

This is rediculous, offshoring is part of why are economy is doing so poor.

Bootstrapping your unemployment

[ClosedSource]

It's different for us. As a group we invented the technology that now allows our work to be outsourced.

Re:Those who fail to learn the lessons of history.

[Foobar of Borg]

Yeah, but any idea what happened to Marie Antoinette after she adopted this very attitude?

Unfortunately, this is the exception rather than the rule. Maybe we should try to patent a method of increasing democracy through the assassination of CEOs.

Check your calendars people

[deltics]

The trouble with living in the information age is that timing "news" stories to appear on a precise date, even with a 24 hour window, can be quite difficult.

I hope they charge outrageous royalties

[J.R. Random]

With any luck IBM will charge a $100,000,000 royalty for the use of its outsourcing patent. Then nobody else will be able to afford to do it.

you can blame yourselves

[Anonymous Coward]

what the code wants to be free model finally coming back to haunt?

    the collective utopiast drivel in regards to the communism for software, content, media aka open source, new biz model of free and bit torrent, found here on /. is taking its bite out of your future and if you dont believe, you have bought into the delusion and are just in denial.

    it was just a matter of time and in response to the new wonders of "free" corporations will do anything and i mean anything to offset the losses brought on by having to compete with the wonders of "free"

i watched my dad lose his manufacturing job in the 80's and then, before the advent of global telecom to the extent that makes this idiocy all possible today, you fools were immune

now they have come for you, too bad theres no one left to help

Atlas is Shrugging and too bad your face is stuck in his ass crack and I hate to say it, I told you so and its just the begining, the worst is yet to come

Re:you can blame yourselves

[justinlee37]

Because clearly, the world will only be right and pure if other people are unemployed while we are overpaid, as opposed to everyone earning a modest wage. Is global wage equalization too much for you? That means you're a spoiled, anti-competitive brat.

Re:you can blame yourselves

[Anonymous Coward]

Your a socialist communist ass and the reason, not everyone is worthy of the same and that should be left up to natural selection, the smart and the strong you fucking fool

if a culture, country, religion, philosophy etc etc. has not evolved to not only survive and prosper then it should die on the vine for the betterment of all, good riddance

but no, you utopiast redistributors are ushering your own demise and I am looking like nostrofuckingdamus by now, enjoy the downslide ass

Re:you can blame yourselves

[justinlee37]

So, encouraging competition in the labor market by reducing trade barriers and wage restrictions is now being a communist?

I don't want to redistribute anything. I just want everyone to be able to compete for work on equal terms. When that happens, wages in more developed countries will fall while wages in less developed countries will rise, until they equalize.

Wage restrictions and immigration controls have nothing to do with social darwinism. In fact, they impede it, by ensuring that you get overpaid for your work when someone else would gladly do it for less. You're the less efficient, wasteful being that needs to be stamped out of existence, not them.

I'm not a socialist, you're just a bad capitalist. You're such a bad capitalist that when I suggest relaxing labor restrictions, you call me a communist. Way to make yourself look like a total idiot.

Re:you can blame yourselves

[Anonymous Coward]

bahahahahahaha The pathetic anonymous coward can't actually sustain a real debate with me so he goes and wastes all of his mod points harassing me. You, sir, are a little bitch and a drooling idiot.

Re:Those who fail to learn the lessons of history.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think around now you'd make at least 10,000 friends if you assassinated Sam Palmisano.