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Tesla Roadster Runs For 241 Miles In E-Rally
N!NJA writes with the mention of a recent alternative energies rally where the Tesla Roadster managed to cover 241 miles on a single charge, with another 38 miles of juice still left in the battery. "That would give the Roadster a theoretical maximum touring range of nearly 280 miles — 36 miles more than Tesla itself reckons the car will cover on a charge. If the numbers stand up to official scrutiny, Tesla will hold the world record for the longest distance traveled by a production electric car on a single charge. Of course, it should be pointed out that the Tesla was driven by a company staffer doubtless practiced in eking out every last mile from a charge, and that the speeds averaged on the run were hardly blistering — 90kph (56mph) on the motorways, 60kph (37mph) on trunk roads and 30kph (19) in the mountain roads. Tesla reckon the average speed for the entire journey was 45kph (28mph)."
Now make it affordable.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Does anyone know how likely the batteries are to catch fire or explode? Imagine a gigantic cell phone or laptop battery blowing up. Yikes!
At an average of 28mph, I'll stick with a gas guzzler thank you very much.
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You can give just about *any* car dramatic improvements in fuel economy if you know how to drive them correctly. See HyperMilingA.
Just to see if it worked, I tried it with an ageing GMC Van (big, full sized, full of people) and measured an increase in fuel economy from about 20 MPG to over 30! Of course, there's something about driving on a freeway at 45 MPH and coasting to a stop from a half mile away that annoys the bajeezus out of other drivers.... I must have been flipped off half a dozen times!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
because as with any gas mileage ratings they measure them under ideal conditions which are hardly reflective of reality. I've yet to get any closer than 3mpg away from my car's highway MPG rating of 27MPG. I've used the majority of my tank traveling at 50-60 MPH which is the sweet spot for my car's gearing and also with minimal wind resistance compared to 70 or 80MPH. And with that type of driving I still could not get any closer than 24 MPG. I'm sure some people can get their car to meet the manufacturer's MPG ratings but many probably don't because they don't drive under the same conditions that the car was measured under. So with the Tesla Roadster traveling with an average speed of 28MPH and a maximum speed of less than 70, it is not surprising that a good fuel efficiency was the result. Drive with a more realistic speed and then get back to us so we have better numbers to compare with good ole ICE-based cars.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
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Please see: EV1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1 It's not that they're "unable" but rather they're unwilling.
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Have you been offworld the past year or so? The Tesla is probably a *lot* faster than what you drive now.
Caveat Utilitor
Oh, sorry, make that 100K if you want it today.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Tesla reckon the average speed for the entire journey was 45kph (28mph)
Assuming they tracked how long they drove, there's no need to reckon!
I'd also be concerned about the toxicity of these batteries. Are they 100% recyclable? Will they be safely disposed of, even if Tesla goes out of business? Will they leak?
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
Amen, brother.
The Big Three undoubtedly saw the potential of Tesla and smaller companies (who buy a chassis, fit it with their gear, and profit), shit themselves, and immediately made it a necessity that Diesel fuel double in price, Saturn (who would be the GM arm to make it happen) forget what they are about and sell rebadged Opels, and thrusting on the public a prolonged (boring?) four-year introduction of the new Camaro.
What. The. Hell, indeed..
Something is seriously fucking fishy, if you ask me.
There are mandated requirements for safety that eliminate the ability for anyone (but them) to feasibly introduce a new American automobile, unless it has three wheels, in which case it's not an Auto at all, but a Motorcycle.
Q: Why did the minimum hood (bonnet) height of a typical sedan go from the super-aerodynamic, low drag Cd noses of the 90's to something akin to 1980's pickup trucks?
A: "Pededstrian safety".
If I accelerate to 97 km/h in 3.7 seconds, I most likely will hit the car in front of me and/or get a ticket for reckless driving.
If I go at 201 km/h, I'll also get a ticket for speeding.
Even though I'd like my next car to be an electric one, acceleration and top speed aren't the reasons for it.
You are aware that this is a car that could easily blow away almost all other cars on the road in terms of performance, right? It took this long because it was going *through narrow mountain roads in the Alps*. Are you going to drive 80mph on roads like this?
I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
I am aware that I used the word "penetration." It's OK, I'm used to /. I know what's coming.
On average I somehow doubt you travel much faster during your day, especially if you're one of the millions of city dwellers who are stuck in traffic.
[J]
You say that now before you've ever driven one.
Every review I have read states that this is the one of the most enjoyable cars to drive ever made, electric or otherwise.
...and I can't get my Roomba to clean my living room without running out charge!
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/04/10/teslas-elon-musk-grows-a-pair-good-for-him/
Awesome.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Acceleration is a damn good reason to go electric. Electric motors produce consistent torque independent of RPM, and the torque is applied instantaneously. The result is instant acceleration regardless of current speed, and is also why the newer Tesla only need one gear. Such acceleration is useful in many day-to-day driving situations.
Troll indeed!
Your implication was that they were "unable to come up with electric cars faster than" Tesla. I'm not arguing the reasons behind jettisoning the EV1 project, but rather the fact that it *can be done* by any company willing to put their minds to it. GM proved it while using inferior battery technology than is available today in a comparable time frame. It's a damn shame they gave up on it, and I sure hope Tesla doesn't run out of money due to lack of purchases and/or one-too-many lawsuits.
That would give the Roadster a theoretical maximum touring range of nearly 280 miles
Somehow I don't think the author understands the meaning of the word used. Surely, the range with a long downhill road or strong (as in Katrina) tailwind would be quite a bit more.
If you calculate how much I get paid an hour and convert the lost hours to dollars, it's more cost efficient for me to take a gas powered car over 4 hours than an electric car for 10 hours.
"It will apparently also come with an on-board charge unit that when hooked up to a 480V supply should enable the battery back to be recharged in around 45 minutes." http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/03/27/tesla_unveils_model_s/
That seems reasonable. :)
When you look at the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gasoline compared to a ton of batteries you'll see why.
That's just silly, though. EVs are exactly the opposite paradigm as gasoline cars. In gasoline cars, the fuel is light while the engine is heavy. In electric cars, the motor is light while the batteries are heavy. The Roadster gets its performance with a motor the size of a small watermelon that weighs something like 40 pounds. In short, battery packs aren't competing with the gas tank for weight and space; they're competing with the gasoline car's engine for weight and space. If you crunch the numbers, you'll find that the two powertrains will be approximately the same when batteries hit 350Wh/kg or so. Commercial cells currently top out at about 200Wh/kg, but there are about two dozen different techs in the lab that can 50%-800% increase the energy density of their respective electrode (anode or cathode). The odds of every last one of them failing to make it to commercialization are vanishingly small. Li-ion still has a very long run ahead of it.
Don't you think if there was money to be made in this market someone would have tried when gas was over 4 bucks a gallon?
When do you think it was that several dozen different marques announced EV programs? Nowadays, it's easier to count the companies that *don't* have EVs they're planning to mass produce. For example, among the biggest sellers in the US, there's only one: Honda. And they've already announced plans to make an electric motorcycle, so even they may not count.
I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
You'd think for GM/Chry/Ford they'd be able to find a chassis that isn't based on a $50,000 auto, and then take it and have it custom made in small runs from carbon fiber composites. They might - just might - have the capacity to leverage some efficiency in purchasing motors and batteries, and incorporating (otherwise expensive) IP from their portfolio to provide a bit better price than $100k.
The Aptera is one of the goofiest looking cars in the world, and yet it's got a waiting list out the door at $30k. You mean to tell me that GM/Chrys can figure out how to sell a $40-50,000 SUV that gets 12MPG in the city to a soccer mom, but they can't take a 4 door sedan that retails for $18k, strip out the entire engine and drivetrain, and put in a competent electric power plant for under $40k?
Sure, that rules out a moderate segment of the public, but up until the economy went to absolute shit, GM only sold a total of 27,000 Hummers in 2008. And that was all three body styles. Surely that's a niche market - and it did quite well until gas prices went sky high. They can't justify putting a useful $40,000-$60,000 car on the road for a few tens of thousands who (a) have the money and (b) want an alternative?
Speaking of hummers...do you know the difference between a tire and 300 blow jobs?
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One is a Goodyear, the other is a GREAT year!
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
What are you talking about? Your average person is not traveling 4.3 hours every day. Indeed even you didn't travel 4.3 hours every day. and I severally doubt you averaged 80mph. Hook up a meter to your car. Stopping for gas and/or eating, pissing or whatever tanks your average. You probably averaged less than 50mph. Trust me.
The Tesla can easily keep up with your silly assed car. The only time wasters is if you have to recharge, which is generally done at night when you aren't billing any of those precious and expensive billable hours anyway!
Yes, with the key word here being "weighed". Comparing a long haul drive is not a fair comparison at all and it's not what you usually do. Most people drive 30 miles a day on average. You need to weigh for that heavily. Many people drive cars that are way underpowered compared to a Tesla. You sound like an idiot who doesn't know the first thing about what you are talking about!
And the Roadster and Model S are only limited to 45 minutes or so because of the type of cells they use (and they have to baby them to get what they do out of them). NiMHs can handle 30 minute charges, phosphates and spinels 15 minutes or so, and titanates 5-10. Assuming you have sufficient cooling in the packs and wire them appropriately, of course. Around a third to half of the announced mass-production EVs have a sub-30-minute charging option, and some (like Phoenix and LightningCar) have sub-10 minute charging options announced. And then there's Project Better Place, which is a whole different story....
Yeah, the chargers needed for delivering that power that fast are pretty impressive beasts (such as the 250kW Aerovironment PosiCharge or the 250kW Norvick MinitCharge), but that's really no more power than common industrial facilities use, except that they have to handle it nonstop, while the chargers only need to handle it in pulses. And no, it doesn't strain the grid when they use their own battery banks, and no, they're not unreasonably expensive (~$125k or so -- about the same as a gas station on a per-pump basis).
I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
"just maybe"? My ten year old four-cylinder Opel Omega has a higher top speed than that. As for acceleration... well:
The Lotus Exige S, based on a similar platform to the one Tesla is using, does 0-100km/h in about 4.1 seconds, and costs ~40k less. A Porsche 997 Turbo could be as fast as 3.2 seconds, while the GT2 and GT3 have comparable times. The Nissan GT-R and Viper ACR are at about 3.5-3.3. The Caterham R500 is even better at about 2.88.
Ok, so the Caterham is a ridiculous car, but the others don't sacrifice much for the speed, and cost a reasonable amount of money (that is, we're not talking Veyron money here).
You can buy off-the-shelf commercial cells that get well over 350Wh/kg, but they die after a few dozen recharge cycles. They are used in a fair few military applications, where replacing the cells completely after an operation is considered acceptable if it means a soldier / UAV can carry the load easily.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Everything you need to know about why automakers don't want us to have Full-EVs
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
4 hours is a far cry from 10 hours traveling.
I'll try not to be too rude, but what the fuck are you talking about. The car is not reaching it's maximum speed at 90kph. That's the way it was driven for the event that it was running. The car's top speed is just above 200kph which means it could handily beat your average speed if the effort was put into it. Now, at a faster speed it might not get to that 280 miles that you traveled, but then again, how often are you going 280 miles in a trip. It's not the perfect car but you should at least be able to grasp that its average speed is not indicative of its actual performance.
"Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
How many of those 0-60 full power starts can it do per charge?
"Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
Speaking as a bicycle rider this has me somewhat interested. Cars are slow to get off the mark partly because internal combustion engines take a lot of time to come up to speed. I don't have that problem with my bike so I have an advantage when accelerating from zero.
I doubt that this will be a serious issue for me in the long term because not every electric car out there will be a tesla. It is more likely that engines will be small to save on power and drivers will be too distracted by the blinkinlights to notice that they have a green signal.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
1. Americas love of gas-based vehicles
No, they(we) don't. We like the performance gasoline gives.
100mph top speed
0-60 in 12 seconds
300 mile range
here's the kicker....15 minute 'recharge' time, available anywhere.
Under $30,000
Give me those specs, and I don't care if it runs on pureed unicorn horn.
Urban speed limits in my city are typically 60 km/h. I once calculated my average speed for trips around the city. It was the same by car as by bicycle: 30 km/h.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Yes, it does feel like cheating. If it's driven at 65mph, the range drops to close to half that figure, which is also what one would expect for a battery of that size and a vehicle of that weight. There is no free lunch/you can't have a highway speed range of 280miles+ without losing half of the weight magically. Or having well over 100% efficient motors somehow.
Nice car. Too bad it'll get eviscerated in the press and market when it actually gets closer to 100-120miles per charge despite its ungodly high official rating. Because nobody's going to drive this thing at 28mph and accelerate like it has an egg for an accelerator pedal. They should have claimed a more realistic range and then if people got higher than the conservative figure, it would be seen as a bonus. But claiming 200+ miles range which no normal driver will get...
I drove 280 miles today (central NY to upstate) and it took me 3.5 hours, meaning I traveled an average speed of 80mph for the journey.
Yeah but this was in Europe. Many of their country roads are old horse tracks with a bit of asphalt pasted over the top.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
My Honda Civic refuels in about a minute and a half, and I can get well over 400 miles on a tank on the highway. Just sayin'.
Read the comment that the comment that I replied to is in reply to (har, the great grandparent). They are talking about a situation where a gas car has the advantage (endurance at 'highway' speeds), and the immediate reply is "The Tesla is teh whiz". You are responding to me as if the parent to my post was completely in context, except, it wasn't in context.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Life was much better in the old days. We didn't have to rely on these new fangled gasoline powered vehicles. Horses were the way to go. If it needed a rest you just stopped off at the side of the road and let it eat for a while.
Seriously, there are a lot more places where you can get electricity, than places where you can get gasoline.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Basically a rich mans toy.
Interesting. That's what computers were when they came out for public consumption too.
And if the steadily increasing estimated price of the "Volt" continues, it will also "Basically be a rich mans toy".
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Because it's dirt cheap, perhaps?
The Roadster uses about 200Wh/mi driving (about 250Wh/mi wall to wheels because of their pack cooling needs because of their unusual choice of cells; most wall to wheels numbers for li-ion EVs are much closer to the pack to wheels). US average household electricity rates are about a dime per kilowatt hour. 0.2kWh/mi * $0.10/kWh = $0.02/mi = 50mi/dollar. For an average running gas price of... oh, let's say $2.50/gal, that's the energy-cost-equivalent of 125mpg.
I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
What does warm weather have to do with it. Unless my physics knowledge is taking a vacation, cold weather will actually improve performance because there will be less resistance in the line (I'm not even going to try to figure out if this is anything beyond negligible). And I'm pretty sure batteries work better in colder temperatures (I'm less certain on this one).
"Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
0-60 in 3.0
http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevrolet-corvette-zr1.html
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What are you talking about? Your average person is not traveling 4.3 hours every day. Indeed even you didn't travel 4.3 hours every day. and I severally doubt you averaged 80mph. Hook up a meter to your car. Stopping for gas and/or eating, pissing or whatever tanks your average. You probably averaged less than 50mph. Trust me.
If it took him 3.5 hours to 280 miles, he pretty much had no choice but to average 80mph. Trust me. Or... erm, do the math: 280/3.5 = 80.
The Tesla can easily keep up with your silly assed car. The only time wasters is if you have to recharge, which is generally done at night when you aren't billing any of those precious and expensive billable hours anyway!
It's going to hold a charge for the same mileage doing 80mph? That seems unlikely - if he maintained that speed, he'd have to stop for an hour to recharge.
You sound like an idiot who doesn't know the first thing about what you are talking about!
Great way to wrap up an argument ;)
Erm, that should be 0.25Wh/mi * $0.10/kg = $0.025/mi = 40mi/dollar = 100mpg. Accidentally used pack-to-wheels instead of wall-to-wheels.
I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
Sorry for poking holes in what people are trying to do - considering I don't have a better idea myself.
I am.
Signed:
Bond, James Bond
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Where will people who live in apartments plug in their car?
Where they park it for the night. On the street or in a car park.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
From Tesla's site, the batteries weigh 992lbs. Earlier it was mentioned the batteries get 160Wh/kg = 72.6Wh/lbs. That gives you 72.3 kWh of energy on a full battery. At a high price of $0.17/kWh that gives you a cost per full charge of $12.291, or $0.043/mile. If you take the EPA ratings for a fuel efficient car, say a hybrid pulling 40mpg and $2/gal gas you get a cost of $0.05/mile. So yeah, the tesla is highly cost effective on cost/mile.
"Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
What does warm weather have to do with it.
I interpreted that to mean that the battery has to heat the interior of the car, or you freeze in a cold climate. Similarly in the tropics most cars run an aircon much of the time. Both of these things cost energy. Electric motors have waste heat which could be used to heat the cabin. Aircons will just cost energy I suppose.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Ask any Canadian if cold can kill batteries.
Hint: it does.
It's ahrd to evolve when your custmers are practically banging on your doors trying to throw money at you for a big gas guzzler.
The reason why they are hurting now has little to do with that, and more to do people not able to get loans.
All the American car manufactures make small efficient cars they sell over seas.
Demand didn't stop until gas shot up, followed by no on able to get loans. Now there is a strong enough demand for economy cars in the US, but no body is buying any cars.
What they hell a poly. sci.(snort) major is doing on /. I'll never know.
French Canadian, figures.
OTOH, your strong Canadian automobile companies can show us the way to making better cars.... oh wait.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Lithium-oon polymer will take over soon enough. Compared to the good old Lithium-ion (not polymer), it packs more energy per weight and volume, does not enforce specific cell proximity and shape (semi-fluid?) and has lower risk of exploding. The price is already about the same.
Things are always improving :-)
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BWAHAhahahhaa... nice one.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Ha - there is a small trailer available for the Tesla, which houses a gas-electric generator (think motorcycle trailer sized).
No, it will blow away most cars in terms of acceleration. Performance includes many other factors; top speed, handling, endurance, etc. The standard Lotus Exige beats the Tesla in all areas other than acceleration (for example, handling on the Tesla is crippled by tyres designed for low rolling resistance, rather than maximum grip which would reduce range further).
A One that isn't cold, is scarcely a One at all.
Electricity is everywhere. Once electric cars start reaching significant numbers, you'll start seeing charging stations in parking lots, on streets, everywhere. They'll work like modern parking meters. Slide your credit card or drop in a few bucks and charge away.
If you need to charge quickly (less than 30 minutes), there are battery chemistries which can do that, too.
For people who are able to park their cars and charge them over night - essentially eliminating the need to stop and "fill up your tank" periodically, is a huge gain in convenience.
Hydrogen is a decent energy carrier which many people like because switching to it wouldn't require a significant change in behaviour. It also has the drawback of either requiring a significant amount of electricity (if using electrolysis) or natural gas to produce. Not to mention that all hydrogen fuel tanks leak a significant amount of their fuel within weeks. It's more efficient to use that electricity to charge batteries for electric cars, or if using natural gas, simply use the natural gas in a regular combustion engine.
No, we can do away with them now.
Worst case, there is a battery 'swap out' station every 200 miles...kind of like gas stations where 60 years ago.
I remember when there was 2 gas stations from the time you left a city area in Orange county, and got to Vegas. You would ahve to stop at one of them, if not both. Now I can get in my car and drive all the way to Vegas before refueling.
So we would back up in the convenience area, but it is doable.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I assume you know that Top Gear *admitted* to faking the ep -- not that this is something new for them. They're an entertainment show. They never ran out of electricity and were never without a working car. The only thing that actually did go wrong was with the brakes -- but it was merely a blown fuse from the abusive track duty they put it through, and the replacement was a nothing task. Their charge time statements were horribly misleading, too.
Clarkson stated that even if the Roadster had performed flawlessly, he still would have been hard on it because he believes that hydrogen is the future.
I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
Well the Japanese and European car makers have good, profitable markets for their small cars. GM and Ford have narrower markets and are more exposed to changes in market conditions.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
What part of "driving through the Alps" are you having trouble with? The "Alps" part?
I believe Bird-Person can arrange that.
"just maybe"? My ten year old four-cylinder Opel Omega has a higher top speed than that. As for acceleration... well:
The Lotus Exige S, based on a similar platform to the one Tesla is using, does 0-100km/h in about 4.1 seconds, and costs ~40k less. A Porsche 997 Turbo could be as fast as 3.2 seconds, while the GT2 and GT3 have comparable times. The Nissan GT-R and Viper ACR are at about 3.5-3.3. The Caterham R500 is even better at about 2.88.
Ok, so the Caterham is a ridiculous car, but the others don't sacrifice much for the speed, and cost a reasonable amount of money (that is, we're not talking Veyron money here).
One huge difference here is that the Tesla is likely to give nearly the ideal acceleration for most of the ordinary consumers. There is no gear shift to enable and therefore no special skills for accelerating.... other than stomping on the gas pedal when the light turns green.
The times you are quoting above have usually been done by professional drivers who have spent a considerable amount of time with the engineers and have fine-tuned precisely when they should shift gears and are maximizing performance to get those times. I find it unlikely that even a good driver under more typical circumstances can obtain this sort of performance.
Still, your point is well taken, and there are other high performance automobiles that certainly can take on a Tesla Roadster at a similar if not slightly smaller price. It should also be noted that most of the other electric automobile manufacturers tend to make things that are glorified golf carts that would be lucky to get to 60 mph at all going downhill with hurricane force winds at the tail.... and you would be afraid of something breaking at that speed anyway.
A "reasonable price" is relative anyway... and besides, the resale value of a Tesla Roadster is currently higher than it costs to buy one direct from Tesla. My last car I purchased for $500 USD (admittedly not new, but it runs just fine).
Here is one example.
Oil is so nineties...
I'm sorry, did you come to slashdot expecting to find insightful commentary on an amazing piece of technology being developed? If so, you might want to go somewhere else, because this is the NEW slashdot, where if a new technology doesn't have the Apple logo on it and a friendly gui, noone gives a shit about it any more. "News for nerds, stuff that matters" has not been relevant here for about 10 years.
Hmmmm.... A vehicle that had it's R&D paid for several times over by Uncle Sam versus putting out a whole new model for the same price that has a totally different target buyer that, so far, hasn't produced zilch in the real world....
Is this an honest question or is this a cheap ploy to tell a poor blow job joke? Actually, any sophomore business student will even tell you that your joke was the better half of your post.
And I'd REALLY love to see you cite some numbers about the Aptera. I'm not saying they don't exist but I'd still love to see them.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
How about equipping parking garages with outlets?
Surprisingly, if you are talking about how far and quickly you can travel, somebody in good condition can outrun and outlast a horse simply by traveling on foot. The human body is "designed" by evolution to be a long distance runner and will beat horses.
Where a horse excels is that they can also haul a pile of goods and equipment.... or plow a field more efficiently than simply strapping a plow to your back and having your wife try to guide the thing going through the ground. Besides, in an agrarian society, finding a little extra food for the day to feed a horse isn't all that hard.
Seriously, there are a lot more places where you can get electricity, than places where you can get gasoline.
Just as important as finding sources of electric power, there are quite a few methods of storing electrical energy and ways to convert that back to electricity on demand than just using chemical batteries.
Considering that future energy sources are going to come from a wide variety of forms and places (wind, solar, nuclear, geothermal, hydro) it makes much more sense to tap into the common denominator of them all: electricity.
When you build tens of thousands of cars you have to sell what the market wants and clearly in the US that is large cars or SUVs. When you are a boutique manufacturer like tesla producing tens or hundreds of cars of year you sell to your niche which in this case is the upper income eco-fashionable. There is no point in mass producing cars that no one wants, can't afford, or cannot meet the needs of a broad section of the market.
At current production rates Telsa will product about 750 cars this year versus GM with over 150,000 cars delivered in March alone.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
It's already affordable to people who are in the market for cars that go 0-60 in 3.7 seconds. They can afford it so well that Tesla is back-ordered. That's proof of a market that you can take to the bank (literally).
Once those people pay the early adopter tax, they fund the transition to higher-volume, lower-price cars like the Model S.
The Tesla is a brilliant piece of product positioning.
Electric outlets might be in a lot of places, but wiring for high power is not as ubiquitous as you'd like to think. The US power grid is already stretched pretty thin and widespread adoption of plugin vehicles would necessitate major infrastructure upgrades. The average home or even parking lot is certainly not going to be wired to refill a vehicle in 30-minutes.
Lets throw in a little basic energy math to show exactly how bad the situation is, eh? A gallon of gas is about 125 MJ or about 35 kilowatts*hours of power. Charging at a rate of "1-gallon-gas/hour" equates to 35 kilowatts (about 30 hairdryers all running at once for the blonds out there). Thus to put in "2-gallons" worth of electricity in 30 minutes requires delivering 140 kilowatts, or 583 amps on a 240 volt circuit. For comparison, pumping 4 gallons/minute at the gas station is just over 8-megawatts.
Plug-in at home vehicles are pointless if there isn't enough power available at the homes and/or enough hours in the day to get a significant charge into the vehicle.
Do you realize what you are saying here in terms of power consumption? 250 kilowatts of power?
Assuming a 220 volt service, that is nearly 12,000 amps that will be needed in that circuit. A normal house connection to the grid only uses about 50 amps (if it is new construction... less for older homes).
Yeah, I've played with power on those levels before, but you are talking a major industrial power supply. If you are suggesting something that has banks of its own batteries and can deliver thousands of kilowatt-hours of energy in a short period of time and then taking on a trickle charge over the next several hours... perhaps I might believe it. That is still an incredible amount of energy... and it is energy that needs to be delivered in what ever form it might take.
At the very least, any such "filling station" for electric vehicles open to the general public would have to have their own private sub-station and/or power plant to handle the charge load that a typical 6 or 8 pump public gasoline station might handle.
Typically the "fast charge" batteries also don't have the raw energy that they claim... again in term of kilowatt-hours (or joules) that can be delivered. 10 gallons of gasoline packs a whole lot of energy in a small amount of volume and it is hard to get much more efficient than hydrocarbons for energy density.
Not totally independent of torque, but close. The problem is that efficiency is highly dependent on torque. Low rpm, high torque is very inefficient, approaching zero at zero rpms. Hence the reason that most electric vehicles do in fact still have a tranny or cv.
In fact, go look at the pictures at http://www.teslamotors.com/design/cockpit/gallery-cockpit.php and you'll see a stick shift with what looks like reverse, 1 and 2.
Does this mean that the battery will loose 50% charge capacity after 1 year of use? I have used many laptop batteries, and they all were like that. That battery replacement will not be neither cheap nor trivial I would assume?
They are using the high end market to drive the technology until it's cheap enough to work for everyday cars. This is a much better approach than the EV1 that started cheap.
I agree Tesla is taking a better approach than GM did with the EV1. However GM didn't sell the EV1, it was available only for lease and only in California, Arizona, and Georgia for employees of GM.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Average Tour de France winners speeds average around 25mph.
Which I can turn around and get better out of Honda for 14k...
The specs for the Fit verse anything GM makes under 25k is scary.
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
When driving the Tesla Roadster like a sports car you'll get much lower mileage. Jeremy Clarkson only got 55 miles around the Top Gear track, as you can see in this poor quality clip.
The remaining problem with viable full electric vehicles is energy storage. You need to solve the problems of capacity, charge time, and duty in all weather conditions. Perhaps a high density ultra-capacitor can solve these problems but no one has demonstrated a production unit yet. Maybe 2009 will be EEStor's year but who knows. It's also possible that hydrogen fueled vehicles will become the more practical option, despite the high cost of developing the refining and distribution infrastructure to support them.
And Tesla is near-unique in using laptop cells rather than the "automotive" li-ions which use different chemistries and don't have the fire risk.
Laptop batteries do catch on fire.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Probably two or three. Me? I'll stick with my 1979 911. Inexpensive, relatively efficient, non-computerized, and major fun to drive.
Self awareness - try it!
Yeah. I wait until it's safe to pass and not kill myself, rather than risk my life and that of oncoming traffic (not to mention my $100k sports car) hoping that my awesome acceleration will fix that problem for me.
This is the problem with performance vehicles - they put stupid ideas in people's heads. Just because you might be able to pull off some sort of reckless stunt that you certainly couldn't in a normal vehicle doesn't mean you should.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
Delivers 1/2 the requirements.
Price?
Refuel time?
Both lacking, so far.
Yes...it is a little hotrod. OK, now show me the other parts.
It's very rare that you'll need to quick charge. The only time you need to do this is if you need to travel farther than the range of your vehicle. The rest of the time, a slow, 8 hour charge is more than sufficient. So you don't need to quick charge at home or in parking lots.
If you do need to quick charge, you'll go to a quick charge station which will have high power running to them (which is not that hard to get). They'll reduce peak load on the grid by using a big bank of capacitors to store the charge. 250kW chargers are already available today (see AeroVironment). With your typical electric car using about 200wH/mile, that's enough to get you 200 miles of travel in 10 minutes.
Your argument of using the "stretched thin" grid is weak. No matter what alternative energy carrier or fuel is used in the future, new infrastructure will have to be built to replace the gasoline and diesel distribution networks.
Tesla decided to dump the multi-speed transmission, as the manufacturer of the tranny couldn't meet the torque and RPM specifications in the production vehicles. All sorts of finger pointing went with the issue, and it nearly took the whole company (Tesla) down with the lack of a quality transmission.
Oh, a two-speed transmission was built, but it only got a couple thousand miles on it before it had to be replaced. This blog entry goes into details on how the problem was finally "fixed", with what was a single-speed transmission.
Why not just make the battery pack a swappable component? Drive into the "recharge station" and swap battery packs? If they are standardized, that could be easily viable.
My Corolla has a 10-gallon tank, so at typical 28mpg I only get 250 safe miles out of a tank.
Perhaps there's something wrong with your Corolla, it needs a tuneup, or you mostly do slow, stop and go city driving. Someone once told me gas tanks are made to travel 300 miles on a full tank. I have a 2000 Saturn and 300 miles is the shortest I've gotten out of a full tank. And yes I keep the records.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
When you build tens of thousands of cars you have to sell what the market wants and clearly in the US that is large cars or SUVs.
The thing is is Detroit, that is Chrysler, Ford, and GM, have a record of NOT making what the market wants. This was amply demonstrated in the '70s. For years after the oil crisis people were demanding fuel efficient autos but the big 3 wouldn't offer them. So the Japanese auto makers ate their lunch by making more efficient cars. That was when Japanese cars had to be imported and weren't made in the US. Eventually Detroit started importing Japanese cars but rebranded them. I once bought a Chevy branded truck but when I opened it up to work on the engine it was a Japanese company that made it.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I just noticed I forgot to account for the maybe 30% efficiency of gas versus 85% electric engines. That makes the current numbers much lower but still borderline unreasonable.
There's no reason the existing liquid fuel distribution infrastructure can't transport biodiesel or butanol which is a drop in replacement for gas. Wholesale conversion to electric vehicles doesn't make sense if you have to pour a billions of dollars into the electrical energy infrastructure to support it. You end up using more oil in the longer run in that scenario.
I believe our primary goal should be energy independence, with the next goal as cleaner fuels and energy production methods. Just switching to a different energy carrier like batteries or hydrogen isn't making much progress towards either goal. Presently, plug-in vehicles just mean the burning coal or oil elsewhere. Hydrogen still has a huge number of problems like energy density, and the fact that we're making it by cracking nat gas and throwing away 20% of the energy - just burn the nat gas instead!
Well the Japanese and European car makers have good, profitable markets for their small cars. GM and Ford have narrower markets and are more exposed to changes in market conditions.
I don't know about GM but Ford makes more fuel efficient vehicles in Europe. Here's a "Business Week" article about "The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have". TFA says it's not available in the US because it runs on diesel and that the fuel has a bad rep. As biodiesel is getting more popular in the US I say this is BS as an excuse.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Yes, I definitely agree that a number of technologies should be pursued to achieve the goal of national energy independence as well as the environmental benefits of eliminating emissions from transportation fuels which will have a dramatic effect on air quality, especially in urban settings.
Biofuels are part of the answer, but as of now, they are too resource intensive to compete on a large scale. This doesn't appear to be changing any time soon - perhaps 15-20 years from now at best.
Hydrogen as a energy carrier is part of the answer, but it has to many drawbacks compared to pure EVs and again, is probably at least 15-20 years out before it starts becoming viable.
Electrification of the vehicle fleet is the most promising. It is already viable for many applications, and costs promise to drop significantly over the next 5 years as investments into battery technology and manufacturing has been ramping up significantly. Not to mention, it is far more efficient than burning fuel in an ICE or hydrogen fuel cells.
The big three all make economy cars, but they sell them overseas.
Ford makes and sells a 68 mpg diesel in Europe.
Normally they would do some financing deal to the customers that would help them changed there momentum to move with the market(this is a 5 year process) but the bottom fell out of the economy and no one was backing big loans.
Saying they're a bank, GMAC, GM tried to get some of that bank bailout money.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
What people fail to understand is that just like the Koreans in the 90s the Japanese where only selling small cars in the US in the 70s. The Japanese had a competitive advantage because unlike the Big 3 they would not have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to re-tool their manufacturing. The US auto makers could never have re-tooled their plants to provide the small cars needed during the timeframe of the oil crisis. When the oil crisis ended people wanted larger cars again and the Big 3 provided them while the Japanese was re-tooling.
Also, during this time the Big 3 where getting hammered but foreign competitors on quality. This is where the Big 3 really dropped the ball in the 70's. Their cost cutting due to limited sales in the 70s affected quality.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
It's more likely that we'll see some sort of Home Charging system, which stores the energy in supercapacitors so that it can be discharged at such a high current.
Of course, that would drive up the cost of the car...
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
I don't have that problem with my bike so I have an advantage when accelerating from zero.
Actually, that's only because they didn't know you were racing. Yeah, you're That Guy. Congrats.
Fast, flashy, exotic. But not for the masses. Yet. And the masses are where the real difference comes in.
It's research like this that will bring EVs to the masses. Tesla already is planning a lower price car, the Model S. At $49,900, after a $7,500 federal tax credit, it's high priced but there may be another in the wings.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
colder temperatures (I'm less certain on this one).
Actually batteries do worse in colder weather. See "Why Do Batteries Discharge More Quickly in Cold Weather?" When I go out to shoot photos during the winter I keep spare batteries in a pocket next to me to keep warm because the batteries in the camera die faster than in warm weather.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Sorry to sound like a cynic but a car that needs to be plugged-in will never be the one for the masses.
Where will people who live in apartments plug in their car?
Do those same people fuel their cars in their apartments? No, they go to a gas station. The same thing can happen with plugin EVs. Or do you thing those gas stations were there before cars with internal combustion engines?
Plug-ins are not the wave of the future. Hydrogen is.
Plug-ins can serve as a stepping stone to Hydrogen vehicles. The only thing different is the energy storage if the hydrogen feeds a fuel cell that produces electricity.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
The US power grid is already stretched pretty thin and widespread adoption of plugin vehicles would necessitate major infrastructure upgrades.
Obama included money in the stimulus package to upgrade the power grid and is "Pressing for a Power Grid Overhaul".
The average home or even parking lot is certainly not going to be wired to refill a vehicle in 30-minutes.
The average home or parking lot does not need to recharge batteries in 30 minutes. Batteries can be charged while working and sleeping for instance. The problem would come with long haul trucking, however trains are more fuel efficient. Semis could then use hybrid drive systems, a small petro engine recharges batteries which powers an electric engine, until hydrogen can be used.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
What does this have to do with what I said?
independence
Agreed!!!
with the next goal as cleaner fuels and energy production methods.
We have those now, though more research needs to be done to increase efficiency and storage.
Presently, plug-in vehicles just mean the burning coal or oil elsewhere.
It may be that way now but if the electricity is produced by renewable resources it doesn't have to remain that way. I'm not sure if it was in "Homepower" or "Solar Today" but someone had written how they recharge their EV with energy generated by a solar or hybrid system.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Hmm...are ALL your streets that crowded?
I easily find places that I could go that fast. My current car doesn't have that much speed and acceleration (as a Tesla), but, they're respectfully close, and I often find times and places to wind them up pretty good.
If I go at 201 km/h, I'll also get a ticket for speeding."
That's what radar detectors and CB radios are for....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
What might be a stupid maneuver in a low performance car, is often NOT a reckless one in a performance car with someone that knows the power and limitations of it.
If you're in a Yugo on a two lane highway, you have a lot of trouble passing people, and have to wait till there is a LONG stretch of clear road you can see. In a performance car, you can often easily pass multiple people in a shorter distance and get back over safely with a lot of room to spare.
If you are in a car that can move faster and stop quicker, you can safely do things other cars cannot do.
An unsafe idiot can drive stupidly in either car, but, a good driver knows his and the vehicles limitations...and can quite safely drive accordingly.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
It took this long because it was going *through narrow mountain roads in the Alps*. Are you going to drive 80mph on roads like this?
Ah, they remind me of one of my favorite movies, "To Catch a Thief", there's a scene where Grace Kelly (soon to become Princess Grace) is racing in the mountains of southern France.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You can't convert gas into kilowatts*hours directly, you forget the waste, gas engine waste 70% of the energy in heat!!! While electric engine waste under 10% of the energy. An other thing, at home the car will charge at night, when the electric demand is at its lowest. Also, future "electric station" will be able to accumulate energy in huge capacitor to be able to deliver that kind of power in short amount of time, the capacitor can be charged while no one is "filling" there car, which is most of the time.
I don't have that problem with my bike so I have an advantage when accelerating from zero.
Actually, that's only because they didn't know you were racing. Yeah, you're That Guy. Congrats.
No, actually I am just trying to move safely in traffic.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
They claimed 200+ miles on the standard EPA mileage test so it's standardized, even if missleading in the real world but YMMV.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
You know, some of us actually need horsepower and large SUV's.
Just because you don't and you're scared my bumper has more real metal than your entire vehicle just doesn't justify the environazis crusade against SUV's.
Yes, a large segment of population buys them for status symbols. Yes, they are idiots. Most could go buy an old musclecar and some wax for half the price of their SUV's if they want to make a statement.
The fact is that SUV's have a lot of real-world uses, even for families. They are large, relatively safe, powerful enough to tow fairly heavy loads and the more recent ones are fairly fuel-efficient. I replaced my old pickup with an SUV and was able to eliminate a minivan as well with the same sized engine and reduce my "carbon footprint". The old Chevy S10 Blazer can haul a trailer, my wife, 2 kids, AND some equipment in the back all while getting 20-25mpg. And that's with a relatively large 4.3L V6.
Do you know of an electric mid-sized SUV that has similar torque/horsepower specs, carrying capacity and range of my old 1994 Chevy Blazer?
Really, you don't? Then STFU.
Electric vehicles are either powerful with very limited range, or slugs barely fit to carry 2 people 250 miles. Electric motors are NOT a replacement for large gas engines in practical vehicles at this point.
Electric commuter cars would be great and I welcome them with open arms but some of us need to move a little more than a bag of groceries.
If I could get a cheap $5,000 electric car just to go back and forth to work I would. I'm seriously considering a Tata Nano. I'll still have my big vehicle and enjoy it thoroughly however and there's nothing you or any lefties can do about it except conspire to raise gas prices.
Some of us travel over 200 miles every Saturday with the whole family. Some of us live in a country bigger than the UK or Germany and have family spread over hundreds or thousands of miles we actually keep in touch with and visit regularly. Some of us travel and do more than go to work and come home.
I'm not going to give that up just so some brat great-great-grandkid of yours can breath in 1 less nanogram of CO2. Wah. Get a life.
I'm more for Biodiesel than electric vehicles at this point unless some major battery or engine breakthrough happens. I whole-heartedly believe Biodiesel is the way to go. Running on cooking waste and degraded biomass definitely beats the toxins batteries release into landfills over generations.
I thought that would put a whole different spin on the high price tag of the Tesla cars, but then I did the math and was disappointed.
I live in the Netherlands, which has about the highest gas prices in the world. A liter of gasoline currently costs about 1.30 euros (that's about 6.6 USD per US gallon). A not-very-efficient gasoline car might use about 8 liters per 100 km, so that works out to about 1.30 * 8 / 100 = 0.104 cents per km.
Taking one data point, I drive about 30000 km a year. If I drove the above not-so-efficient car, I could save up to 0.104 euros per km, or 3120 euros (about 4200 USD at current exchange rates) per year. Of course, I would only achieve that if charging the Roadster were free, so actual savings are going to be less. And it's not a lot of money, compared to the Roadster's price tag.
Not that this invalidates the fact that Tesla makes some really cool cars. I'm very curious how the Model S will turn out.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
what is so groundbreaking about a 750 mile range if your car has a 100 gallon tank in the back seat?
The 1.9L 2006 VW Golf TDI has a 12.5 gal tank. Here are the numbers. Please notice the EPA ratings barely break 40MPG for the 2006 (newest) and about the same with older models.
While I'm sure the mileage is great, I'm skeptical of the claim that fnj can 'go over 600 miles without coming close to empty' though. With a 'best fillup' of 781 miles, one would be breaking 60MPG. That's barely achievable even with VW's diesel hybrid. fnj must do a lot of modestly paced highway hypermiling down a 700 mile slope or something... heh. Just a quick search around shows anecdotal evidence that people typically get about 45 highway with their Gold TDIs... that's probably more like it.
But yeah, diesel engines are just more efficient than their gasoline counterparts.
How about a small car; If Telsa could make a car the size of the smart cars out there and get 300km off a single charge - I would be a very happy man. The most I travel is around 30km to work so its almost a whole weeks worth of electricity - and if I wanted to be a cheap bastard, I could top it up at work for free lol :P
It's ahrd to evolve when your custmers are practically banging on your doors trying to throw money at you for a big gas guzzler.
And why is that? Do they really want/need one, or did the big US auto manufacturers, spend SUBSTANTIALLY more on marketing than on R&D in the last decade? The statement that "people want an SUV" is not clear at all, and what they want is very difficult to differentiate from what they're told they want.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
Good plan. I'm sticking with my '85 944!
"Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
I've seen people converted their old cars into all electric using powerful electric motors. One of em was converted into a dragster!! The original design they used rubber belt to drive the wheels. When the guy floored it the main drive belt broke due to massive amount of torque!!
I was like awesome!!
Telsa is giving something the public wanted a real electric car people can buy today. Other people find an old car and convert it to electric themselves which isn't hard to do. Just rip out the gasoline engine and reuse the manual transmission with the electric motor attached. And finally add batteries. Pretty simple setup. I suppose by now they wouldn't need the manual transmission if the motor can provide all the torque they need at any speeds. The manual transmission makes it easier to use a smaller motor.
This is the problem with performance vehicles - they put stupid ideas in people's heads. Just because you might be able to pull off some sort of reckless stunt that you certainly couldn't in a normal vehicle doesn't mean you should.
No worries. Each to their own, and all that stuff. I do hope you leave a suitable gap between yourself and the SEMI (or whatever slow moving vehicle is in front) so that others may choose to "hop" past you safely and not have to try and overtake both you and the SEMI if, for whatever reason, they feel the need to "make like a towel", and press on.
That's certainly one of the things that annoys the hell out of me! I honestly have no issue with people who choose not to overtake, but please do consider those who do want to overtake and leave sufficient room to allow people to pull in.
Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
Where's the "-1: Figures pull out of my arse" moderation when you want one eh!
Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
handmadehands.co.uk
Another factor in costs savings (which still with the roadster does not make it cheap, but the model S should be different) is that maintenance costs are significantly cheaper with an electric car. There are fewer moving parts, the moving parts in the motor don't physically touch, there's no oil, no exhaust system. I don't know what the actual savings are through maintenance but it should be relatively significant.
"Educate the mind but never at the expense of the soul."~Blessed Basil Moreau
Yeah, I mentioned that I forgot to account for efficiencies after that post. Most of the folks here still keep ignoring the simple fact that the power requirements are still very substantial. I wish more folks would do some of the basic math instead of hand waiving with "oh they'll just make super capacitors!"
Everyone keeps talking about these "super capacitors" like its a given. Super caps do exist, but they are hideously expensive for the amount of energy storage and the energy density is less than 1/10 of a decent battery. If they were a viable option for a power station, they'd be putting them in cars. So you're looking at possible standard batteries to serve as an intermediate storage, which also entails another 10% energy loss in the charging and discharging cycle of those batteries.
Presently, plug-in vehicles just mean the burning coal or oil elsewhere.
- this is an extremely annoying problem in the US and many other parts of the world, presently, that really should be addressed in a correct way.
You can't handle the truth.
Amen, brother.
Self awareness - try it!