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UK To Train Pro-West Islamic Groups To Game Google

Hugh Pickens writes "The British government's Office of Security and Counter-Terrorism (OSCT), a 200-strong Home Office unit created 18 months ago, has said in meetings it wants to 'flood the internet' with 'positive' interpretations of Islam and plans to train government-approved groups in search engine optimization techniques, which it is hoped will boost their profile online and battle radicalization. A Home Office spokesman confirmed search engine optimization training is part of the government's anti-radicalization strategy. 'In order to support mainstream voices, we work with local partners to help develop their communication, representational and leadership skills. This support could include media training, which can help make their voices heard more widely, and support the development of skills which allow communities to be more effective in debate.' However the effectiveness of search engine optimization in reducing traffic to extremist websites has been dismissed by academics. A report produced by the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation (ICSR) said young Muslims were much more likely to be directed to extremist material online by web forums and offline associates than by Google or other search engines. 'Tweaking the results for supposedly extremist terms would be largely ineffectual, not least because it is unlikely that any but the most callow wannabe terrorist would use a mainstream search engine to find banned material.'"

469 comments

  1. ...Manipulating Google? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The overlords at Google will not be impressed.

    1. Re:...Manipulating Google? by jrothwell97 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Google UK likes to please governments.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
  2. Islam, eh? by Fanboy+Fantasies · · Score: 2, Informative

    Islam is the Middle East's response to the Mormon religion/cult. Islam was created by the Arab "prophet" Muhammad, yet another guy who heard voices in his head. These voices told him that his religion was a continuation of Judaism and Christianity and that those who followed these outdated religions should be converted or killed. Since he forgot about Zoroastrianism, he apparently thought that his religion was the third and final in the monotheistic trilogy. And being the third, it is inevitably the most shitty of the three (think Spiderman 3 or The Matrix Revolutions, not The Godfather, Part III).

    However, Islam may well be an honest continuation of God's word -- that is, if God is a giant asshat. Whether by suicide bomb or an heroic murder spree, through making threatening phone calls or through biological, chemical, and/or nuclear terrorism, Islam is well-situated to guide humanity to certain death.

    Those who follow Islam are termed Muslims, which probably makes sense in some non-English language. Muslims follow a magical book called The Koran, which is a slightly less lengthy version of the Holy Bible. The only difference is that it contains a somewhat more descriptive account of the Muslims' annihilation of those infidels who dared to practice peaceful religions and somewhat more child rape, primarily on the part of known pedophile Muhammad:
    Muhammad married a 6-year-old girl and had sex with her when she was nine.

    Seriously.

    It's in the fucking Koran.

    1. Re:Islam, eh? by palegray.net · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For once I'm going to have to encourage the mods to actually read an incendiary post (re: parent) in its entirety and do some fact-checking before modding the poster down. There's actually not anything I can find in this post with respect to actual citations and recent events at the hands of fanatics that isn't true. Thought some may find it deeply disturbing and distasteful, including peaceful adherents to the faith, the last paragraph is pretty much beyond factual dispute.

    2. Re:Islam, eh? by tg123 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Please mod parent up.

      Well it is an incendiary post and the author has obvious hate of islam it is thought provoking.

      I for one would hope the readers of slashdot are given a chance to read this and give there opinion.

      I'm all for open discussion.

    3. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really?

      >Islam is the Middle East's response to the Mormon religion/cult.

      False. Islam came first.

      And the rest of the statements go downhill from there. Considering that was the first line and proven false, I'd say yes, flamebait or troll. Anyone who wanted to actually create a thought-provoking post on it without using falsehood or inflammatory speech could do so with just a few seconds of logical though applied to the situation.

      So, mod down, try again.

    4. Re:Islam, eh? by TOGSolid · · Score: 1

      Figures that the day my mod points expire I finally find something I'd want to use them on. Anyhoo, while what the British are doing is not exactly the most well thought out plan ever, it's hardly a bad one. I think the more far reaching consequences of it though is not so much going to be in helping to prevent the creation of more radical, extremist Muslims, but instead to help educate the ignorant that not all Muslims are evil, nasty people and instead at least help a little in curbing anti-Muslim rhetoric if only by a little. Like I said, not a bad idea, just not exactly well thought through.

      But hey, at least it's news from England that doesn't involve them oppressing their citizens in new and inventive ways, and that's always a nice change of pace.

    5. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod down, mod up - most of it is still factually incorrect and just opinion.

    6. Re:Islam, eh? by burni · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well isn't something alike in the bible too ?

      Sorry but this child rape argument isn't really one, there where times were similar things were common even in europe like 500-600 years ago.

      This koran is about 800 years old, it cannot be adapted to todays social and cultural standards.

      As I might update your view in most muslim countries it will be not possible that a nine year old will marry and get deflorated,
      earliest age of marriage is between 14-16 or at least 12/13 (it is but it's mostly ignored! towards higher ages),

      neither there are exceptions, such as the yemen where this practice might not be as uncommon as it seems.

      You see even if muslims say those words are divine, they tend not to follow the koran in word, they adapt and interpret it.
      Like what christians have done with the bible, ok anytime there are extremist people.

      I think you should make yourself clear about how we came to todays moral and ethic standards.

      And you should not let yourself blind with worn out arguments, you can also find similar things in the bible I guess,
      but the more you will embrace those old argument against christianity or islam, you will be clueless about a solution.

      But yes I also think that there are muslims, which are a threat to western society but I also take extremist christianism into account to be such a threat.

      I am also a naturistic nudist for example, and I don't want to have my freedom cut, to be as I am, where I am.**

      **this is irony for those who may have thought else! But I am a confessing liberatarian.

    7. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there is a lot of bad stuff in the bible too.

      And don't start with the "Well, it is in the OLD testament...". Jesus quite clearly says that all the laws given in the old still hold true (Sermon on the mount, Matthew 5:17), regardless of which translation you use. Besides, Christians have decided to keep it as a holy book.

      And Muslims consider Jesus a prophet too, so if you don't mind Christianity, EVERYTHING in Koran isn't bad. So both books have good and bad parts.

      I am not saying that Christianity is just the same as Islam because people interpret the texts differently and the cultures end up being different. But what matters is not what the scripture says but how people act based on it.

      I am fine with you criticising Islamic countries if you don't like the culture there. However, saying that Islam is bad because there is so much filth in it's scriptures is childish, partially wrong and applies to Christianity just as much.

      -Your friendly neighbourhood atheist

    8. Re:Islam, eh? by Spazztastic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Stop using monospace for your posts.

      --
      Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
    9. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One of the biggest problems is that their prophet is held up to be the model of behaviour--the most perfect man, and is to be emulated in all things, (and there is no expiration date on this stuff). So, when an approximately 50 year old man (who happens to be the prophet of islam) "marries" a 6 year girl, and has sex with her when she is 9, those present day restrictions are pretty hard to enforce in an Islamic country because it is well documented that Mohammed did it. And if he did it, then it must be ok.

      Secondly, by saying "...there where times were similar things were common even in europe like 500-600 years ago", you are making weasel excuses. It does not excuse the behaviour, nor make it right. It does show an attempt to deflect accusations of wrong-doing.

      Pedophilia (even when practiced by that Islamic prophet Mohammed) is wrong.

    10. Re:Islam, eh? by WgT2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...you can also find similar things in the bible I guess..."

      Let me end your guessing: you will not find similar things, as in: pedophilia being committed by one of the authors of one of the books of the Bible.

    11. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      -- This koran is about 800 years old, it cannot be adapted to todays social and cultural standards.

      Unfortunatly, the koran is considered a "holy" book which speaks naught but the truth.

      -- You see even if muslims say those words are divine, they tend not to follow the koran in word, they adapt and interpret it.

      Interpretations abound as we can see in our modern world, from peaceful to extremely violent. The interpretation of all that is messed up in the koran (which is a lot), has led to incalculable stupidity and unexcusable behavior.

      -- Like what christians have done with the bible, ok anytime there are extremist people.

      Don't worry, I hate christians as much as I hate muslims, and just about any other nutcase that professes to "believe".

      -- But yes I also think that there are muslims, which are a threat to western society but I also take extremist christianism into account to be such a threat.

      There are no doubt extremist christians in this world that pose an actual threat to their environment, but in the west, this is minimal. The "extremists" that I have seen here, usually go about picketing for the entirely wrong cause etc, but don't usually end up killing and/or maiming people. They are merely even more annoying then the regular dickwads.

      In short, religion, much like assumption, is the mother of all evil, we would do well to rid ourselves of such fairytales so we can strive for a better future.

    12. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      factual dispute.. and where is the proof for this?

      the mo part is also not "fact" since this information comes from hadiths...and even those conflict each other! some say she was 6, some say 16. big fuckin' difference dont you think?

      all the "abrahamic" religions are primitive.

    13. Re:Islam, eh? by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Please re-read the post: he is saying that THE only author of the Koran was a pedophile AND that the Koran tells about it.

      He is NOT saying that the Koran tells stories about bad things. He's discrediting the Koran, and thus Islam, by pointing out that its founder was a pedophile.

    14. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the link between mormonism and islam is actually stronger than most think. Joseph Smith (mormon "prophet) even cited Muhammad as an example he would follow.

    15. Re:Islam, eh? by oh_bugger · · Score: 1

      Yes, Slashdot is my first choice when it comes to religious discussion. The mods are doing me a service by not burying this post and forcing me to go to another website which is actually about religion and where there's real discussion going on.

      --
      Go home and shave your giant head of smell with your bad self
    16. Re:Islam, eh? by trick.one · · Score: 1

      Try to educate yourself before you go spewing off at the mouth. You seem to enjoy giving yourself a big pat on the back appealing to Slashdot's penchant for snark, but the shit you wrote is just ignorant.

    17. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hehehe you guys make me laugh, cause apparently you understand nothing about religion you know nothing about Islam or the Koran.

      Seriously if this post was meant to offend Muslims then I'm laughing at how stupid and ignorant the poster of this topic is.

      As for palegray, "last paragraph is pretty much beyond factual dispute" cmon man where on earth have you even ready anything remotely related to what the poster is talking about?
      Anyways i would encourage you to learn a little more about Islam and the true guiding of Islam before making such accusations, all I can say is one day we will all Die and stand before GOD and trust me you will regret this deeply but it will to late ;) keep doing what ur doing your only hurting yourself ;) your ignorance and disrespect to other people's views really says alot about you ;)

    18. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Muhammad must have truly been a great prophet to craft his religion as a response to one that wouldn't exist for well over a millennium into the future.

    19. Re:Islam, eh? by themacks · · Score: 1

      You see even if muslims say those words are divine, they tend not to follow the koran in word, they adapt and interpret it. Like what christians have done with the bible, ok anytime there are extremist people.

      I think if you were to read the Bible, New Testament in particular, you would find that the extremist Christians are the ones who add, take away or distort what the bible actually says, rather than extremist Muslims who follow the Koran to the letter.

      But yes I also think that there are muslims, which are a threat to western society but I also take extremist christianism into account to be such a threat.

      Christians who follow the Bible should be no threat, except to one's pride. Christianity is based on a God who loves his creation, and sent His Son to die for their sins. The New Testament doesn't instruct the killing of enemies, but loving them, as exampled by Christ.

      --
      i read about it in a blog once
    20. Re:Islam, eh? by funkatron · · Score: 1

      Well isn't something alike in the bible too ?

      Haven't read much of the Bible (I stopped after the most boring murder I have ever read) but how would this make the Qur'an any better?

      --
      "Welcome to our world. We are the wasted youth. And we are the future too." Yes, I know these are stupid lyrics.
    21. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're going to shill your own posts with a sockpuppet account, try not to make it quite so bleedin' obvious.

    22. Re:Islam, eh? by h4rm0ny · · Score: 0, Redundant


      I think it's a pretty awful one on the part of the UK government. The Google manipulation might be new, but the New Labour government has been funding and supporting *approved* versions of Islam for quite a while. Why is this a bad thing? First and foremost, it is NOT the government's job to be promoting any particular religion to anyone. Ever. It is not where I want my tax money going and even if I did want to support a particular religion, the ethical thing to do would be for me to support it directly, not have a supposedly democratic government do it.

      Secondly, this is domestically counter-productive to their actual aims. A religion or culture needs to change from the inside. Quite frankly, the government's stamp of approval on a religious person does nothing to lend them credibility and a lot to undermine it. If someone is trying to persuade you that they can explain God's words to you, then the last thing that will help is our despised UK government, responsible for uncounted muslim deaths, overtly manipulating you in that direction.

      Thirdly, this sort of behaviour is pretty bad internationally across the muslim world. It's bad enough when a country invades a country and plunders its oil, but it might be even worse when you can see it actively trying to change the beliefs of your children to accord with a different version of your religion that suits it better.

      Bad, bad, bad.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    23. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pedophile

      Ah yes, judging people of the past using a 40 year old law/morality.
      You do realise that something that you do today will be considered immoral/illegal in some distant future? So you should figure out what it is now and stop it, perhaps even put yourself in jail for it.
      I really hope I hear a whoosh, I really do.

    24. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Christianity takes its name from Jesus, and is based on the idea that if Jesus is not god (trinity), then he is at least the son of god.

      Taking a look at the old books of christianity, we find that Jesus upholds the old testament. Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

      Armed with those words, the whole bible is open as a source for religious guidance, such as rape being punishable by a payment of 50 pieces of silver to the victims father and then taking your victim as your wife. Rape victims who are betrothed are to be stoned to death. If you see a female captive who you like, then take her. Selling your daughter as a sex slave is fine.

      That's just some of the parts dealing with rape. It's also O.K in the bible to kill gays, witches, adulterers, disobedient children, fortune tellers, non-believers, false prophets, anyone living in a town with non-christians, brides who are not virginal, blasphemers and anyone who works on the sabbath.

      Is it "weasel excuses" to say that christians don't generally behave like that anymore, or just double standards?

    25. Re:Islam, eh? by h4rm0ny · · Score: 5, Funny

      This Koran is about 800 years old, it cannot be adapted to todays social and cultural standards.

      A bit like monospace, then?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    26. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've read the Bible. Its plenty full of a hateful, vengeful, and sociopathic god.

      PS. There's no such thing as an atheist fundamentalist. Nearly all don't hold their worldview in stone and are open to changing it if evidence presented warrants it. We are much less of a threat to mankind than the warring religions. We have started none, you have been fighting for thousands of years.

    27. Re:Islam, eh? by EvilToiletPaper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's mostly the same, in some accounts even less ghastly than the old testament (human sacrifice, child abuse etc. etc.)

      The main problem with Islam comes from the fact that it has failed miserably to adapt to the twenty first century, where all other countries are moving towards increased secularism and freedom of choice, Islamic countries are still stuck in a medieval religious model circa 1200 a.d.

    28. Re:Islam, eh? by burni · · Score: 1

      It does not, nor I defend it, but a judgement should take various aspects into account, especially when it comes
      to a judgement about a multitude of various people.

    29. Re:Islam, eh? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Care to back that up with citations? "Thou shalt not kill" may look fairly clear-cut, but frankly, there are in fact quite a few codicils.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    30. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      He's discrediting the Koran, and thus Islam, by pointing out that its founder was a pedophile.

      Pedophilia is bad, I agree to that. But let's look at the bible.

      And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.

      Is pedophilia so much worse than that? Really? Bible has a lot worse stuff in it than pedophilia. And so has Koran.

    31. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I've read the Koran also, it is rather incendiary and frightening. I remember being horrified that people take it literally. One of the most violent books I've ever read. Sure, it had some good stuff in there, but a very substantial portion was about killing non-believers and Jews.

      Try reading it sometime, I think you'd be surprised that people call it a peaceful book. The Bible is tame in comparison.

    32. Re:Islam, eh? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately for such historical comparison, the Bible was assembled from numerous historical and apocryphal works by a committee: the literary arguments about what should and should not go in the King James bible are fascinating material, but the _authors_ of the material had been dead for hundreds of years, so there's not so much historical fact preserved about them.

      Rape, incest, slavery, murder, and genocide are all quite common in the Old Testament, though, especially including King David.

    33. Re:Islam, eh? by burni · · Score: 1

      You are right, but the bible is based of the old testament too, it was not decommissioned ?

      But you are right that I cannot judge christians by the old testament only, that's the point what I wanted to say, just exchange bible with koran and christians
      with muslims.

      I look at those christians with sorrow, whom for example love their (wo)man2(wo)man-loving fellow citizens so much that they are outcasting them, or violate their human rights - as you might expect I the human rights are my basis of judgement what's right and what's wrong.

      I tried to put the attention to the difference between written words, thoughts and real actions.

    34. Re:Islam, eh? by burni · · Score: 1

      To cite a commercial

      "Monospace makes the difference"

      But I missed the words, " .. without revision and interpretion on todays standards."

    35. Re:Islam, eh? by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Secondly, by saying "...there where times were similar things were common even in europe like 500-600 years ago", you are making weasel excuses. It does not excuse the behaviour, nor make it right. It does show an attempt to deflect accusations of wrong-doing.

      No, he's saying that the person who made that post and the people who modded it insightful are ignorant fools if they think that exactly the same examples of genocide and forced marriages of children can not be found in the Torah or the Bible. Really, slagging off Islam for these sort of stories in the holy book from a Christian or Jewish perspective is hipocritical.

      If you are astonished at this marriage to a young girl, you would clearly be astonished by any of the cultures of the time. The parent wasn't saying it was right, they were saying it was prevalent.

      Pedophilia (even when practiced by that Islamic prophet Mohammed) is wrong.

      I think what you meant was that paedophelia (what a cheap shot by the way, think of the children), is considered wrong nowadays, but that it was not always so, as evidenced by the child brides in the Talmud (I believe the age in question is 3) and Christian Bible. To point this out is not a 'weasel excuse' it's to not wallow in the ignorance of expecting every age to conform to the mores of our own.

    36. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Islam ? No, is Fish!

    37. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christianity is based on a God who loves his creation, and sent His Son to die for their sins. The New Testament doesn't instruct the killing of enemies, but loving them, as exampled by Christ.

      Tell that to the fig tree!

    38. Re:Islam, eh? by themacks · · Score: 1

      You are right, but the bible is based of the old testament too, it was not decommissioned ?

      The Bible includes the Old Testament, but they have two distinctly different messages.

      But you are right that I cannot judge christians by the old testament only, that's the point what I wanted to say, just exchange bible with koran and christians with muslims.

      But while Christians still have and use the Old Testament, the laws within it do not apply to Christians, and therefore the comparison the the laws within the Koran for Muslims does not apply to the laws within the Bible for Christians (There are laws in the Bible for Christians, but the majority of the Old Testament ones do not apply. As they were fulfilled by Christ)

      I look at those christians with sorrow, whom for example love their (wo)man2(wo)man-loving fellow citizens so much that they are outcasting them, or violate their human rights - as you might expect I the human rights are my basis of judgement what's right and what's wrong.

      Unfortunately that is an example of extremist Christians who are adding onto the Bible, the Bible does declare certain actions to be sin, but it doesn't call for the out casting of the people who do those things (in the New Testament). Instead, it calls for Christians to love them, just as Christ did.

      I tried to put the attention to the difference between written words, thoughts and real actions.

      Once again, unfortunately there are those who claim to be Christian but don't follow what is actually written. The world would be a much better place if Christians actually did what was is written for them to do in the Bible.

      --
      i read about it in a blog once
    39. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the question of Muhammad marrying a young girl - it is worth pointing out that the notion of the 'child' is in many ways a relatively recent invention in many cultures - before the Victorians started to develop the idea they were in many ways considered just small adults. It wasn't a distinct stage in the same way it is now. They didn't have toys, were expected to work etc.

      Don't you think it might be worth taking into account the fact that the situation with Aisha was 1500 years ago - if the girl had reached puberty (which may not have been uncommon at that age at that time, then in a different culture this might not have been seen as an act of pedophilia. If Muhammad was a pedophile then how come most of his wives were very much older than Aisha? How come he waited till she was 9 and had reached puberty.

      I would say that if you want to do something 'for the children' then you might turn your attention to the U.S., which is one of the only countries in the world to execute them (in the current legal definition of the word children BTW.)

      Have a look at http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1995/Us.htm & http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-67554306.html
      Now that's what i consider to be SICK, and it is is happening in a christian country, IN THE PRESENT DAY!!!!!!

      Important to point out that I'm not at all religious, - i find all religions almost equally ridiculous and poisonous. Its just I really don't like to hear complete ignorance fueling the (often racist) bonfires of outrage that build up around this kind of issue - just because the west is trying to create a bogey man to justify all the wars and the military spending, doesn't mean you have to buy into it!

      Not if you want to think clearly and see stuff as it really is.

    40. Re:Islam, eh? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Really, slagging off Islam for these sort of stories in the holy book from a Christian or Jewish perspective is hipocritical.

      Nope, because in neither religion are those practices endorsed today. Your problem is you think a religion is what is written in some book and not what is actually practiced by those people. Islam isn't dangerous because Mohammed ordered the slaughter of some Jewish tribe. Christianity isn't dangerous because one day some king from the old testament committed genocide. A religion is dangerous if *today's adherents* are doing crazy shit like suicide attacks and trying to expand the ummah.

      as evidenced by the child brides in the Talmud (I believe the age in question is 3) and Christian Bible

      Dude, the issue is that Muhammed specifically consummated the marriage (i.e. he fucked the girl, if you're not familiar with the term) while she was still playing with dolls.

      Child brides were very common, yes, but not the actual sex part! DUH!

    41. Re:Islam, eh? by Nazlfrag · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, if we're going by chemical, biological and nuclear weapons use the Christian west is far, far more bloodthirsty than the most fanatical Muslim has ever been.

    42. Re:Islam, eh? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately that is an example of extremist Christians who are adding onto the Bible, the Bible does declare certain actions to be sin, but it doesn't call for the out casting of the people who do those things (in the New Testament). Instead, it calls for Christians to love them, just as Christ did.

      The bible declares plenty of things to be sins, even in the new testament.

      What it doesn't do is prescribe earthly laws to deal with sins, which is the problem with islam (a "complete" system for life, rather than a personal religion).

      The world would be a much better place if Christians actually did what was is written for them to do in the Bible.

      If only everybody could agree on the One True interpretation of what is written that is so clear to you, right?

    43. Re:Islam, eh? by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Anyone who wanted to actually create a thought-provoking post on it without using falsehood or inflammatory

      Truth hurts, buddy. Religion is a moronic and outdated concept and Islam is the filthiest and most savage of the bunch. I too would be full of rage if I were a Muslim and I too would blame the Jews who are very convenient to blame. The Muzzies are filthy parasites who invade Europe and America and attempt to install their 14th-century ass-backwardsness disguised as "political correctness". They'll take advantage of western hospitality and kill and maim your daughter in some back alley because she refused to wear a hijab or burqa or whatever that damn rag is called.

      Waste those motherfuckers. They are obsolete in the new world order.

    44. Re:Islam, eh? by Cyberax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, sure.

      The whole Bible can be summarized as: "You are worthless bitch. Endlessly pray for forgiveness, you slave". The same for Koran (it's absolutely explicit there) and a bit less for Torah.

      This whole "religions of peace" is oxymoron like "slavery for freedom".

    45. Re:Islam, eh? by fireweaver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All three abrahamic religions are fucked up. Mo just took the most perverted aspects of judaism and christianity, added his own psychopathy, and voila! - islam was born.

      Religion must die and WE have to kill it.

    46. Re:Islam, eh? by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Y'all niggaz postin in a troll thread

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    47. Re:Islam, eh? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Thou shalt not kill, or is it thou shalt not murder? It's a big distinction and it's under debate. Don't you read slashdot?? I learned about that debate right here in the last few years :)

    48. Re:Islam, eh? by IICV · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you actually read the bible, the koran or the torah, you will read a lot more about love and forgivness than you do about killing people you don't like.

      I'm not sure what books you're reading, but as far as I know only the New Testament has much about "love" and "forgiveness". God of the Old Testament and the Torah is full of salt and vinegar, damning and cursing and calling upon his people to rape cities. I will admit that I don't know much about the Koran.

      "Thou shalt not kill" isn't really open to interpretation. It is absolutely clear what it means.

      Unfortunately, the Bible wasn't written in English. The Hebrew words used there do not necessarily mean "kill"; there is very good evidence that they might mean "murder". This makes perfect sense in the context of the rest of the Bible - after all, God calls on people to kill for Him all the time in the Old Testament.

    49. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is sleeping with a nine year old girl less deviant when human life expectancy is only 30 years.

    50. Re:Islam, eh? by mR.bRiGhTsId3 · · Score: 1

      The UK has a long glorious tradition of supporting a religion's offshoots. Or did you forget about the Anglican Church?

    51. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, but the bible is based of the old testament too, it was not decommissioned ?

      The Christianity, like the Muslim community today is so finely partitioned and diverse that you can't even state the Old Testament as being the "base" for modern Christianity. Some see the Old Testament as the "Old Union" and the Moses' law and Israel as the cornerstone of this union of god with the Jewish people, and the New Testament as the "New Union" with Jesus as the middle figure and no Moses' law.

    52. Re:Islam, eh? by hjrnunes · · Score: 1

      Oh come on... I can't fucking believe this post... Oh well, here we go again. So pal, perhaps you can tell us all what exactly makes Islam a worse religion than the rest of it's monotheistic counterparts?

      And don't yap about the x number of virgins. In Christianity they offer you a nice whole Paradise, which is probably full of whatever you want, since it's paradise. Fundamentalism or in other other words, radicalism? Might as well look in the US for that. All those nice little Christian sects claiming the apocalipse is coming and enacting the fucking Hell on stage with bloody abortions and crap like that to make sure little kids grow up fearing Hell, God and, of course, it's representatives on earth.

      But let's keep going, Islam inspires terrorism? Perhaps, but no more than Judaism or Hinduism. Of course, you probably never heard of this in your little bubble but one of the worst terrorist attacks of the 20th century was carried out by terrorist Jews who thought it was ok to bomb King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 91 victims because their book had written on it that that was and still is their promised land for which they have the right do to whatever they want to (and can still win Nobel Prizes for peace. What a good example). You can also check Sri Lanka for a little belligerent Hinduism.

      So now Islam is the scapegoat huh? So now every religion is nice and cool and respectable except Islam? Hum, nice. So you must think they use terrorism because their religion tells them so... It never occurred to you that they might just be pissed at the West, led by the US, for fucking around in their land ever since they found oil in it? Guess not. Well, they'll keep bombing the shit out of you until you get it. That's where their religion really excels. You see, christians get tired soon if not winning. Muslims, they don't get tired.

      Finally, let me ask you: exactly how much crap can you people take down the throat before you realize you're eating crap?

    53. Re:Islam, eh? by kno3 · · Score: 1

      that is complete bollocks! Matrix Reloaded was far worse than Revolutions!

    54. Re:Islam, eh? by themacks · · Score: 1

      The bible declares plenty of things to be sins, even in the new testament.

      What it doesn't do is prescribe earthly laws to deal with sins, which is the problem with islam (a "complete" system for life, rather than a personal religion).

      I wholeheartedly agree with you on that.

      If only everybody could agree on the One True interpretation of what is written that is so clear to you, right?

      The moral guidelines in the Bible are pretty simple to understand. The theological ideas are the tricky ones and I don't claim to have the "right" interpretation of the Bible.

      --
      i read about it in a blog once
    55. Re:Islam, eh? by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah man, I live right next to one of the biggest mosques in my country and you can't move for all the beheadings, child rape and intolerence.

      Which is, of course, nonsense. The mosque runs a very popular cafe serving cheap curry, it's enormously popular with every demographic in the area (excluding those who don't like curry), local Muslims drink (non-alcoholic) drinks in the same pubs and clubs as the rest of us, work in the same places as the rest of us etc etc. Just because I find religion in general a little fuzzy and misguided doesn't mean the Muslims are any worse than your average Sunday churchgoer or crystal-waving new-ager.

      Of course there are extremist elements all over the world, just like some evangelicals in the US marrying multiple teenage girls, or Jehova's Witnesses who will allow a child to die from a curable operation. Pick your religion, somebody does something weird and usually harmful, but it's also a minority.

      The point of the original idea is that the extremists, usually by definition, shout the loudest even though they're a minority. This aims to redress the balance a little. Us atheists could take a well-thought-out leaf from that book.

      --
      Please consider this account deleted, I just can't be bothered with the spam anymore.
    56. Re:Islam, eh? by SalaSSin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Islam is the filthiest and most savage of the bunch

      You have /got/ to be kidding, right?

      At this moment they *might* be savage, but the lovely christians killed off other peoples (yes, peoples) by the thousands, and some are still doing so today, under the banner of religion.
      The Hindu's despise a large chunk of their own people and use them as serfs for the sake of their religion.
      The "orthodox" jews in Israel make it a sport to starve out an entire people because their religion tells them it's their chunk of land.
      The animist people who listen to shamans in black Africa are hunting down and chopping apart albino blacks because they are thought to have magical properties.

      In conclusion, religion is just plain and simple evil disguised in a robe with a funny hat (why do they all need funny hats to make their statement??)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice - Grey's Law
    57. Re:Islam, eh? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Have a bit more damned respect. So far all you've done is declare Muslims infidels that we other people need to annihilate. How about you actually meet some Muslims (the construction makes perfect sense in Arabic or any other Semitic language, by the way*) and talk to them about their religion before you judge the whole thing!

      * Seriously, when you're using linguistics as a reason not to like someone, you've jumped into irrational hate. Stop it.

    58. Re:Islam, eh? by dov_0 · · Score: 0

      Those who follow Islam are termed Muslims, which probably makes sense in some non-English language.

      'Muslim' means 'submitted' - ie. to what they believe is God's will.

      Muslims follow a magical book called The Koran, which is a slightly less lengthy version of the Holy Bible.

      The Koran is actually quite at odds with the Bible, has a completely different format, layout etc. Unlike the Bible, the writings in the Koran only really fit into one genre. The Bible has many different genres of writing. Muslims teach that the Bible is wrong and only use it when it agrees with whatever it is they are saying.

      The main difference of the Koran however is that is removes from it's portrayal of God any great degree of Promise, Justice, Faithfulness, Sacrifice and Forgiveness and instead shows a whimsical being that we just have to kowtow to with the knowledge that no matter how great our love and obedience to Him is, He could just send us to Hell on a whim anyway.

      ...primarily on the part of known pedophile Muhammad: Muhammad married a 6-year-old girl and had sex with her when she was nine.

      Koran? I think you mean the Hadiths.

      --
      sudo mount --milk --sugar /cup/tea /mouth /etc/init.d/relax start
    59. Re:Islam, eh? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, I'll note that the Talmud prohibited sexual intercourse with its child brides. You had to wait until they hit 12, the religious Jewish age of majority.

    60. Re:Islam, eh? by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Um, I don't think you understand Christianity in the least. By "fulfilling the law" basically Jesus was claiming that he was the messiah that was referenced heavily in the law (which refers to the old testament).

      For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

      Shows that Christians are not bound by the Old Testament laws because Jesus fulfilled them. There are several references to where Jesus goes opposes society's norm such as Mark 2:23-28 where Jesus plucked grain on the Sabbath. And another instance where he saved a woman from stoning because of adultery*

      Jesus can easily be taken as a good role model, even if you do not believe he is God. Muhammad on the other hand can not. Find me one instance in Jesus' life that would be morally wrong today. And you can find several in the life of Muhammad (pedophilia, etc). It would be hard to argue that Muhammad was a perfect role model for a good life. *This instance was not documented in some of the earliest manuscripts and is a point of debate for theologians to this day

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    61. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's in the fucking Koran.

      Actually AFAIK the situation regarding Aisha is in some of the Hadith (which are less universality accepted as being accurate) not the Koran itself.

      And the bible also has rape in it: Judges 21, Numbers 31, Deuteronomy 20 and 21.

    62. Re:Islam, eh? by AnonymityCowardily · · Score: 1

      According to modern standards. Set by governments and followed by sheep everywhere. Wake up and smell the coffee. Lives in the past was brutally short. Marrying at a young age was not in the least out of the ordinary. Look it up.

    63. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aisha bint Abu Bakr is the name of Muhammad's youngest wife. Its in wikipedia.

    64. Re:Islam, eh? by Dzonatas · · Score: 1

      I'm less worried about what the Koran said back then because I'm more worried that the U.S. pledge of allegiance says 'under god'. The Koran is not a threat like those that try to get everybody to abide by the pledge of allegiance.

    65. Re:Islam, eh? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      How did this get modded Informative +5? I'm disgusted. I'm an Israeli Jew, probably the biggest enemy in the eyes of many Muslims, and yet even I find this post offensive.

      Not only is it inaccurate and slanderous, it contains outright lies (Islam is the Middle East's response to the Mormon religion/cult) and contrived name calling (pedophile Muhammad). Projecting 2009 Western culture on 1400 year old stories from the Middle East may make Muhammad seem like a child molester, until you realize that was standard practice for the day.

      You can take your anti-religion witch hunt somewhere else, thank you.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    66. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christianity takes its name from Jesus, and is based on the idea that if Jesus is not god (trinity), then he is at least the son of god.

      And Pontiacs take their name from a tribe of Native Americans.

      Irrelevant non-sequitor.

      Taking a look at the old books of christianity, we find that Jesus upholds the old testament. Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

      WTF does that have to do with the barbarity of modern Islam?

      Umm, nothing?

      Armed with those words, the whole bible is open as a source for religious guidance, such as rape being punishable by a payment of 50 pieces of silver to the victims father and then taking your victim as your wife. Rape victims who are betrothed are to be stoned to death. If you see a female captive who you like, then take her. Selling your daughter as a sex slave is fine.

      Except that Christianity today isn't practiced that way.

      ISLAM, on the other hand, most empatically IS practiced with that MEDEIVAL BARBARISM.

      Honor killings, anyone? Care to guess the religion that murders rape victims because they've been "dishonored"????

      Got the balls to answer NOW?

      That's just some of the parts dealing with rape. It's also O.K in the bible to kill gays, witches, adulterers, disobedient children, fortune tellers, non-believers, false prophets, anyone living in a town with non-christians, brides who are not virginal, blasphemers and anyone who works on the sabbath.

      That might be IN the Bible.

      It's ACTUALLY PRACTICED TODAY by ISLAM.

      Is it "weasel excuses" to say that christians don't generally behave like that anymore, or just double standards?

      What was that about "double standards"?

      Why the fuck are you DEFENDING a religion that summarily tries and often succeeds in executing critics? Such as Salmon Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh? Yet you'd probably say free speech is imporant - but you're defending the largest, vilest force for censoship on the entire planet Earth - literally.

      What are you, some sort -f blind, sheltered dumbass?

    67. Re:Islam, eh? by Roland+Deschene · · Score: 1

      Well, if we're going by chemical, biological and nuclear weapons use the Christian west is far, far more bloodthirsty than the most fanatical Muslim has ever been

      That's only because the culture of the "most fanatical Muslim" is just barely out of the stone age. If their culture was as advanced as European cultures, you can bet they would be just as, if not more, bloodthirsty.

    68. Re:Islam, eh? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      "Christianity takes its name from Jesus, and is based on the idea that if Jesus is not god (trinity), then he is at least the son of god."

      There is no "if Jesus is not God" in Christianity.

    69. Re:Islam, eh? by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      I think you read too much into the word "response".

      He probably should have said 'counterpoint' or 'analogy'.

      Is it relevant what came first?

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    70. Re:Islam, eh? by pwfffff · · Score: 1

      So who else laughed when they saw "all I can say is one day we will all Die and stand before GOD and trust me you will regret this deeply but it will to late" right next to "your ignorance and disrespect to other people's views really says alot about you ;)"

      Classic.

    71. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To cite a commercial "Monospace makes the difference" But I missed the words, " .. without revision and interpretion on todays standards."

      The purpose of monospace is to create even, uniform columns and rows for the purpose of precisely displaying things like source code. It's a trade-off where some legibility is sacrificed in order to guarantee that the text will be displayed in a uniform manner. It is not intended for most prose and it's not intended for casual conversation-type writings like every post you have made here. It is an inferior choice for those. That's not a matter of taste, for there are concrete, observable, objective reasons why it is an inferior choice.

      The reason why non-monospace fonts have variable-width characters is because this is a more natural expression of the English language. That is, the letters are originally this way and in fact they have to be modified to force them into a monospace format. Using a non-monospace font improves readibility, and while this is subtle, that means it improves your ability to communicate. What I'm saying is why not use the right tool for the right job, instead of doggedly insisting on monospace where it's not really appropriate? If you're trying to look "unique" or "special", my advice is to do that by having something unique to say, not by repeatedly using the wrong tool for the job.

    72. Re:Islam, eh? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Mainstream Christianity, as practices in most of the west, is not practised that way, but you don't have to look far to find offshoot churches (take a look at some of the Mormon offshoots, for example) to find places where it is even in the USA, and if you go to third-world countries you'll find even less enlightened interpretations. Similarly, Islam is not practised in that way by the majority of its followers.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    73. Re:Islam, eh? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Child brides were very common, yes, but not the actual sex part! DUH!

      In most societies of the time, puberty was regarded as the cut-off point, rather than a fixed age (largely because innumeracy was rife and it was not uncommon for poor people not to know their own age). 9 is quite young, but certainly not without precedent for a girl to enter puberty, although it is very unusual for a girl to survive childbirth if she conceives that young.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    74. Re:Islam, eh? by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      The point of the original idea is that the extremists, usually by definition, shout the loudest even though they're a minority. This aims to redress the balance a little. Us atheists could take a well-thought-out leaf from that book.

      you mean atheists should flood google somehow to point people at websites that discuss how completely absurd believing in the invisible sky man is?

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    75. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not all lies. This for instance is thrue: "Muhammad married a 6-year-old girl and had sex with her when she was nine."

      Get informed: http://www.faithfreedom.org/

    76. Re:Islam, eh? by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      it's a weasel excuse.

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    77. Re:Islam, eh? by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      False. Islam came first.

      I'm pretty sure that part of the OP wasn't intended to be taken literally, as "Budweiser - American's response to shitty low-grade European beers." If that's the only part of the post you can be bothered to try to build your foundation on, you're screwed, but you already knew that.

    78. Re:Islam, eh? by alexj33 · · Score: 1

      >>some evangelicals in the US marrying multiple teenage girls,

      What??

      Evangelicals don't do this. Are you referring to that Texas compound? That was a radical offshoot Mormon group, which is not Evangelical Christian in any way.

    79. Re:Islam, eh? by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      You're a joke. It's too bad you're not man enough to log in and reply. I love idiots who can't even be bothered to go through a user's post history.

    80. Re:Islam, eh? by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      In Acts 10, God commands Peter to eat animals that in the OT were considered unclean. Acts 15 also deals (in the negative) with the question of whether OT rules are binding in the NT.

    81. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm very sad no pedophile ass-fucked you when you were a child. I am sure with your superior logic and moral standards you would have excused him.

      Fortunately nowadays you can enjoy death in a terrorist attack because of a 800 "year old law/morality" - better later than never...

    82. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well ... that was in response to slavery. It's not like there wasn't a choice given or several nonlethal warnings prior to that. Plus its a story of what a pissed off god did. It was not a recording of what the writer themselves did which was then promoted as the standard all should follow.

      How I was raised it appeared that the major religions who follow the bible held it was only divinely inspired and it isn't perfect as god had to work through flawed humans. Islam, the major religion of its book, holds the book is perfect 1:1 dictation from god, unaltered, unalterable, no mistakes, no typos, perfect, and eternal. Thats a bit of an important difference there and yes I know some groups hold the bible is "the word of god" but I said major religions not the minor crazy offshoots.

      -- Recovering Ex-Catholic, walking the path between atheism and faith.

    83. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you opposed to young women who are capable of having children getting married?
      You are a feminist and an enemy of Man.

    84. Re:Islam, eh? by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      Christianity was once a barbaric and primitive religion, but then went through a renaissance.

      When will Islam move out of the stone age and have a Renaissance of its own?

    85. Re:Islam, eh? by Gizzmonic · · Score: 1

      Your entire post is a false equivalency. I am no fan of religion, but I can tell which one presents the biggest threat to Western civilization. It's like equating the murderous repression of the Stalinist regime to the US. Yes, both of them done great evil. However, one of them is clearly more evil. Comparing Christian lunacy (which is mostly limited to attempting to undermine evolution) vs. Islamist lunacy (suicide bombing, oppression of women) just doesn't add up.

      --
      (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    86. Re:Islam, eh? by maestroh · · Score: 2, Informative
      It sounds like you're one of the people the British government is targeting. Here's what you say:

      These voices told him that his religion was a continuation of Judaism and Christianity and that those who followed these outdated religions should be converted or killed.

      Yet here's a verse from the Koran that states God's view of Christains and Jews. It's verse 62 of the second chapter:

      Surely, those who believe, and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians, whoever have faith with true hearts in Allah and in the Last-day and do good deeds, their reward is with their Lord, and there shall he no fear for them nor any grief.

      The verse is pretty straight forward, but I'll sum up what it says. If you believe in God and try to do good deeds, you'll go to Heaven. It's pretty simple. The verse is from Surat Al-Baqara (one of the best chapters of the Koran) which outlines many concepts in Islam. http://www.ahadees.com/english-surah-2.html

      On a side note, I find it interesting that he community on Slashdot regard intelligence and knowledge in high regard, but ancient books with ancient knowledge are dismissed as some sort of fantasy. These books are the record of our ancestors. They passed down knowledge to us so that we as their children could improve ourselves. They learned these lessons through trial and error, yet we still make the same errors today because we don't read our own history.

    87. Re:Islam, eh? by XchristX · · Score: 1

      At this moment they *might* be savage, but the lovely christians killed off other peoples (yes, peoples) by the thousands, and some are still doing so today, under the banner of religion.

      Compared to the hundreds of millions that the Muslims have butchered over the centuries in Africa, Afghanistan, India, Indonesia?

      The Hindu's despise a large chunk of their own people and use them as serfs for the sake of their religion.

      Not as a matter of state law. One of those "serfs" was India's president.

      The "orthodox" jews in Israel make it a sport to starve out an entire people because their religion tells them it's their chunk of land.

      Most of Israel is not orthodox, or religious for that matter. Israel has open gay bars, and is the only middle eastern country with full LGBT rights. These guys sound "orthodox" to you? The primary conflicts there are nationalistic, with religion playing only a periphereal role.

      You Americans have some bizarre orientalist ideas that everything in Asia is motivated by religion. Simply not true.

      The animist people who listen to shamans in black Africa are hunting down and chopping apart albino blacks because they are thought to have magical properties.

      Sucks to be them, for sure. Still, the death toll is hardly in the millions there. Compare with the 1971 Bangladesh genocide by Muslims (3 million dead for that one alone).

      In conclusion, religion is just plain and simple evil disguised in a robe with a funny hat (why do they all need funny hats to make their statement??)

      Fair enough. However, you make the classic fallacy of moral equivalence here. All religions are indeed bad but they are not equally bad. Some are worse than others.

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    88. Re:Islam, eh? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      How about incest? Close enough?

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    89. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      O/S Religion?

      You must be Unitarian.

    90. Re:Islam, eh? by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      I think most of the negative attitude towards GP comes not from his attitude to Islam (even so ... flamboyant), but rather from his absurd arguments:

      And being the third, it is inevitably the most shitty of the three (think Spiderman 3 or The Matrix Revolutions, not The Godfather, Part III).

      /. is heavily biased against successful organized religions, especially against Islam. That fact alone explains why otherwise completely moronic comments are propelled to the five-dom.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    91. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      David Koresh and the Branch Davidians are Adventists, not Mormons.

    92. Re:Islam, eh? by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      From the historian point of view Ahadith are the most authenticated historic facts. The highest level of authentication (Sahih) comes from multiple chains of narrations.

      One fact illustrates profoundly the highest level of factuality of Ahadith:

      The greatest collector of Hadith, Imam al-Bukhari, rahimuhu Allah, was traveling a lot all across vast Islamic state for the sake of learning singular Ahadith.

      Once he traveled thousands of miles to a country to learn a new hadith. He came to an alleged possessor of precious information from Prophet Muhammad, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, and while waiting, he noticed that that guy is calling for his goat, holding up his apron as if it was full of food for the goat (while the apron was empty).

      Hardly a negative trait for a normal person, this incident raised doubts about authenticity of an alleged Hadith from Imam Bukhari, and he returned back and traveled thousand miles empty handed, without even asking that person for this Hadith.

      The tradition of intellectual honesty carries all the way from the founder of Islam, our Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam.

      Once he was talking to chieftains of polytheists, trying to convert them to Islam when a blind man came wondering and asking him a question.

      Our Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, "turned his head and frowned". Immediately, a Surah "He frowned" revealed to him, in which his act of turning away from a blind person (surely, acceptable to the most noble and pious of ordinary people, but unacceptable for the Prophet) was criticized.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    93. Re:Islam, eh? by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      I completely agree that the OP comes off sounding like a grade-A jerk. I don't know if he could compose a thoughtful, profanity-free reply on this topic if his life depended on it, but I guess I was hoping people could separate the message from the extreme lack of tact demonstrated by the messenger.

    94. Re:Islam, eh? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      What societies are you talking about? Looking up statistics on Rome, Greece, and Egypt it appears the average age of marriage was mid to late teens for girls and mid twenties for guys.

      A 15 year old girl has been in puberty for quite a while so I find it hard to believe that puberty was a common cutoff point.

      I've heard all sorts of ridiculous arguments about Aisha, including that desert environments cause rapid sexual maturity. It's a *little* too much of a coincidence that the founder of a religion just happens to pick the extremely rare case where a 9 year old has become fully developed and nobody knows how old she is because they all can't count. But granting that incredibly unlikely scenario, let's not forget he definitely fell in love with her at age 6, at least 3 years before this miraculous early puberty. He didn't marry her because of some political motive, he saw her and was instantly captivated. Aisha's father *didn't* want them to marry, and tried to weasel out of it, but Mohammed had a revelation from God on the spot and forced him to accept. (He does that a lot, if you read the koran and the hadith.)

      I've also heard that when they said she was 6 years old, that means it had been 6 years since puberty, putting her probably around 15-16 when they first met, the true average age of marriage (I really don't know where you're getting the idea that it was common for just-pubescent children to be married in *any* society.) She would have been 18-19 when they consummated the marriage.

      Obviously it's all open to interpretation. Because of the unknowns it probably wouldn't be a big deal, except you see plenty of Muslims saying that yes, she was really only 6, yes they had sex when she was 9, yes she was a child, no it's not a big deal because Mohammed was a good person so he would never harm her.

      It's just rather disturbing. If you're cool with the whole issue, more power to you.

    95. Re:Islam, eh? by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what slashdot's for?

    96. Re:Islam, eh? by SalaSSin · · Score: 1

      You Americans

      For the record: i'm not american, i'm european.
      And i wasn't talking about Sikhs, but about parias.
      Point taken about Israel though.

      Some are worse than others.

      That's right, up until the next turn of events, where the cards can be completely different.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice - Grey's Law
    97. Re:Islam, eh? by SalaSSin · · Score: 1

      Oh, forgot something, what the hell does religion in Asia have to do with anything i said, except maybe for the hindu's?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice - Grey's Law
    98. Re:Islam, eh? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Please excuse me while I drive you crazy...

      God's killing of the firstborn in Egypt is radically different from anything I am aware of being taught in the Q'uran. Most importantly:

      - God killed the firstborn in Egypt. Not the Hebrews. While you may disagree, in Christianity God is Creator and by this divine right has the moral and ethical basis to do as He wants with us. He could have killed Adam and Eve and taken a Mulligan, you know. But to the point, God did that in Egypt.

      - What I have read of the Q'uran tells me that Allah instructs His followers to take revenge in His name, to punish in His name, to convert by the sword if necessary in His name. While Mosaic law in the Bible instructed the Israelites to stone their brethren for certain offenses (similar to Islamic law, apprently the way things were done back then), where Israel went to war against their adversaries if they did so in obedience to God, He aided them and conquered their enemies - if they did not go with His blessing, He witheld His assistance and Israel failed. Jesus teaches love, in that He seeks not dominion over nations, but the willing acceptance of His way by Christians. Let the nations do as they will, as individuals Christians are held to account for their actions and faith.

      The difference I see between Islam and Christianity could not be more profound. Christ asks your freely given faith, and expects followers to preach His word - those hearing it will choose for themselves (avoiding much Calvinism here, bear with me). Islam expects followers to convert infidels by the sword, and in fact still considers them inadequate if they required force to be converted. An interesting dilemma...

      Me? My God doesn't need me to convert unbelievers at the point of a weapon.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    99. Re:Islam, eh? by mr100percent · · Score: 1

      Who modded the troll +5?

      There's nothing in the Quran that says convert or die. 2:255 says "Let there be no compulsion in religion" and it says to preserve churches and synagogues.

    100. Re:Islam, eh? by Aardpig · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If we're awarding points by the number of deaths, then Christianity must win by far -- just look at the numbers for the Taiping rebellion in China.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    101. Re:Islam, eh? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      I can't name any case where that was regarded as other than a Bad Thing.

    102. Re:Islam, eh? by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      One of the biggest problems is that their prophet is held up to be the model of behaviour--the most perfect man, and is to be emulated in all things, (and there is no expiration date on this stuff). So, when an approximately 50 year old man (who happens to be the prophet of islam) "marries" a 6 year girl, and has sex with her when she is 9, those present day restrictions are pretty hard to enforce in an Islamic country because it is well documented that Mohammed did it. And if he did it, then it must be ok.

      Yes, it is ok. Women age differently, some of them achieve maturity very early and are perfectly capable of sexual relations with full understanding of it at the age of nine. Hazrat 'Aisha, the mother of all believers, was a daughter of the closest friend of the Prophet and the first male follower, first Khilafa of Islamic state, Abu Bakr Siddiq.

      She later became a single greatest female collector of the Ahadith (number 4 among all collectors, male and female) - stories about the life of the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam. She was known for her bright sharp mind, education and independent scholarly opinion. That disproves the theory that her early relationship with the Prophet, sal Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam, carried some kind of physical/psychological trauma usually associated in the West with such relationship.

      Figure 6 in this peer-reviewed paper shows that "age of menarche" happens in 1% of Japanese athlete girls at the age of 9. If we extrapolate this data to the population of Arab girls in 7th century, we get around thousand of 9-years girls ready for marriage.

      Pedophiles are obcessed w/ young girls and boys. There is no indication of such obcession in this particular case.
      'Aisha, radhi Allahu anha, was an exception among his wives. He, sal Allahuu 'alaihi wa sallam, married mostly mature women, his first wife, Hadidja, radhi Allahu anha, was 40 at the age of their marriage (he was 25).

      The age of 9 is unusual for consummation of marriage, no doubt about that, but so was the life of the person we are discussing, the most influential man in history (Michael H. Hart).

      He was a Prophet, for crying out loud, don't you think that the Creator of all living and what not, could arrange ANYTHING for him without ANY harm to the people involved? (that argument won't work on atheists of course, but it will give you a gist of why 1.3 B people of the world have absolutely no problem with this overrated obsession of the Western media).

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    103. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Muhammad isn't the author of the Koran, at least he didn't write it himself.

    104. Re:Islam, eh? by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      In addition to my post above:

      here is another data (Nigeria):

      Table 1:

      Table 1: The Percentage Of Children From Middle
      Class Families Who Experienced Menarche At Specific
      Age Groups.
      % Of Girls Who Attained
      Menarche
      8 0.25
      9 0.98
      10 3.92
      11 10.54
      12 22.55
      13 22.55
      14 5.39
      15 0.98
      Percentage of girls without
      menarche
      32.35

      Again: 1%, same number

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    105. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Find me one instance in Jesus' life that would be morally wrong today.

      How about Mark 7:25-30 where Jesus is being racist towards a woman who comes to seek his help? Not as bad as pedophilia but still...

      For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

      Shows that Christians are not bound by the Old Testament laws because Jesus fulfilled them.

      Yes. Several passages in the Bible state clearly that the Old Testament laws are no longer binding. The funny thing is that several passages in the Bible (both Old and New Testament) state clearly that the laws are still fully in effect.

    106. Re:Islam, eh? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yes, and then we get to the real mass murderers: atheists (look up Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    107. Re:Islam, eh? by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      The "message" you are talking about is highly redundant and was comprehensively replied in the past.

      There is only one single standalone, ideological, reason, why this is being brought up again and again, and it leaves me in a utter bewilderment why the mods keep umpodding this highly off-topic subject again and again in the comments.

      What is the percentage of little green footballs at /. anyway?

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    108. Re:Islam, eh? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Christianity was once a barbaric and primitive religion, but then went through a renaissance.

      When will Islam move out of the stone age and have a Renaissance of its own?

      I am not sure I agree with your first sentence. But there is an important difference between Christianity and Islam: the barbarism and violence of Islam is based on their most authoritative scripture the Koran. Christianity's most authoritative scripture contains such admonitions to violence as "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn the other." If you think there is equivalence between the two, please cite the New Testament reference calling for the faithful to kill anyone.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    109. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://slashdot.org/~Fanboy+Fantasies/comments

      Looking at your post history, I find it very interesting that (almost) all your posts against other nations or groups were flaimbait or troll...except against islam when it becomes +5 informative.

    110. Re:Islam, eh? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Adventists aren't considered part of the "Evangelical Christian" movement either.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    111. Re:Islam, eh? by Pinckney · · Score: 1

      Waste those motherfuckers. They are obsolete in the new world order.

      You are entirely too eager to provoke conflict. It's as if you're looking for an excuse to kill somebody.

    112. Re:Islam, eh? by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      [..]Don't worry, I hate christians as much as I hate muslims, and just about any other nutcase that professes to "believe".

      Which is why you'll never "convert" anyone to your way of thinking. Rational argument requires respect on both sides. Don't be surprised if when talking to the "religious" they become irrational towards you. Its not them, its you. And before you say like most atheists you "don't force nothing down anyone's throat", then I must ask you if you really hate the "religious".

      You will certainly disagree with me, but thats your problem. I just call it as I see it.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    113. Re:Islam, eh? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Religion must die and WE have to kill it.

      If religion is real - that is, if it's backed by actual supernatural power - then you can't destroy it. And if it's not real, then one must assume that people have some kind of inherent drive to invent religions - as evidenced by the fact that all known cultures from Neanderthals up have had some kind of religion - and you again aren't going to be successful. Sure, in the latter case you might be able to destroy a particular religion, but people will simply invent a new one. And a nasty one at that, since "destroying" a religion in practice won't go bloodlessly.

      All you'll end up doing is exchanging an established lukewarm religion into one with fanatical fire-eyed followers, and that's assuming the best possible outcome. Not a good trade, IMHO.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    114. Re:Islam, eh? by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Yes, and then we get to the real mass murderers: atheists (look up Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.).

      They're all late-comers - religion always has been, and even today continues to be, the excuse for killing people who don't believe in the same god you do.

    115. Re:Islam, eh? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      They may be late comers, but compared to them every religious mass murderer was an amateur.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    116. Re:Islam, eh? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I've read the Bible. Its plenty full of a hateful, vengeful, and sociopathic god.

      PS. There's no such thing as an atheist fundamentalist. Nearly all don't hold their worldview in stone and are open to changing it if evidence presented warrants it. We are much less of a threat to mankind than the warring religions. We have started none, you have been fighting for thousands of years.

      Stalin, Mao. Sorry either one of these atheists overshadow all religious mass murderers put together.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    117. Re:Islam, eh? by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They may be late comers, but compared to them every religious mass murderer was an amateur.

      Then the obvious deduction is that they had good teachers ...

      And no, in terms of body count, even Stalin has nothing on christianity.

    118. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What crap! Islam has been around for nearly as long as Christianity. I as a practising Christian have no problem respecting Islam. Why on earth write such stupid stuff. Mormon is about 2 centuries old I believe. Islam predates it by hundreds if not thousands of years.

    119. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me...evangelicals do NOT marry multiple teenage girls. 'Evangelical' denotes a particular group of Christians who share certain beliefs and practises in common. By definition, the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints churches who practise polygamy are not evangelicals. You seem to be using the term as a blanket name for religious conservatives in the Christian tradition, which is quite inaccurate.

      (Unless you're aware of some wacky evangelical group I'm not?)

    120. Re:Islam, eh? by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Nice demonization attempt coward, but still just good old fashioned troll.

      This thread seems to have brought the trolls out bigtime.

    121. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did this get modded Informative +5? ...

      If you could ask Theo Van Gogh, you might get an answer.

      Of course, the fact that you can't ask him is really all the answer you need, isn't it?

    122. Re:Islam, eh? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Then how did Noah have great-grandchildren? Or was that why they brought pairs of animals, so Noah's grandchildren would have something to breed with besides their cousins?

    123. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Prophet Muhammed (Peace Be Upon Him) was a mercy upon mankind from God Almighty. Please don't use slashdot to spread your bigotry.

      In any case, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and if you ever took time to actually study Islam, then your opinion will be drastically changed.

    124. Re:Islam, eh? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      No. _Catholicism_ insists that Christ was God. Whether a christian group believe shit is a source of heretical arguments for many centuries.

    125. Re:Islam, eh? by WgT2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He could have killed Adam and Eve and taken a Mulligan, you know. But to the point, God did that in Egypt.

      Egypt was God's 'Mulligan'? THE definer of good and evil needs... a 'Mulligan'?

    126. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Or, you can interpret Jesus' statement about fulfilling the law and the prophets in the following manner:

      Beyond the establishment of a culturally-relevant written code, the law was established to demonstrate man's iniquity, and ultimate inability to be completely blameless before God. It also established religious practices providing for atonement in that regard, but nothing which was permanent.

      The prophets, by and large, wrote about a time when God would send a savior, who would offer a permanent redemption from the curse of the fall and from the judgment of the law.

      In this regard, Jesus didn't come to abolish the law (in that man's nature would still be fallen), but to fulfill the prophets in establishing redemptions from its judgments.

      Not that that's a theologically complete description of the law, but is at least a very different way of interpreting Jesus' words in this regard.

    127. Re:Islam, eh? by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Crude, at best.

      Yes, cousins. That would have been all they had... they would have also have had a LOT of cousins to choose from seeing as how long they are stated to have lived.

      What you seem to not bring into consideration is 'God', by definition, is, understatedly, much, much, much, much greater than you or I - in every imaginable way - and then some. Such a person is more than able to sufficiently explain himself in such stories and sufficient to not require that you understand all of what is written nor to explain it.

      The real bottom line is whether you're certain of where you came from or not there are two absolutes about yourself: there is a day you were born and there's a day you will die (never to be resuscitated again). What becomes of after that depends on what you believe. John 3:16 is what I'd hope you'd believe - but your will is your own... or whomever you give it to - for now.

    128. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry to say that if the mods can allow this kind of hatred to come onto slashdot, I can no longer come here. I've been a slashdot follower for many years, and actually thought that slashdotters were rather open minded. As a muslim, I find this post so hurtful and offensive that words don't come to mind. There are millions of muslim nerds in the USA. In some parts of the country, every muslim you meet works in software or IT. For slashdot to allow what is a considerable portion of their readership to be subjected to hateful intolerance is a huge disappointment to me after all these years. Goodbye.

    129. Re:Islam, eh? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Hee-hee-hee-hee. And then the magic fairies will come and give me a pony!!!

    130. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear OSCT, please read the news before designating a religion as peaceful.

    131. Re:Islam, eh? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1
      I guess this comes down to one's definition of 'incest'. The forbidden relations (for men) were:
      • Mother
      • Step-mother
      • Sister
      • Step-sister
      • Grandchildren
      • Aunt
      • Daughter-in-law
      • Sister-in-law
      • Any woman + woman's daughter/granddaughter pair
      • Wife's sister (while wife is still living)
      • Married women (to someone else)
      • Women on their period
      • Men
      • Animals
      • !Wife (They were polygynous at the time)

      Cousins don't fall under these rules. And in any case, these are the rules laid down at Moses' time. AFAIK, Noah and family didn't have any explicit rules on the matter.

    132. Re:Islam, eh? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      You've never examined the history of the Inquisition, have you? Or of most combined church-state religions?

    133. Re:Islam, eh? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Oh, my. You've a set of excellent points, especially considering that the much smaller communities of the time were more likely to have cousins marry. But there are exceptions to some of these rules. If your brother died without children, you were supposed to get his widow pregnant. (This was the story of Onan, where some religions get their prohibition against masturbation, and they should have gotten the prohibition against misleading women and failing to fulfill family obligations.)

    134. Re:Islam, eh? by Ghettosavant · · Score: 1

      would you please provide the surah in which this is mentioned? also I am curious if you are an Arabic speaker or otherwise which translation are you referencing? thanks in advance!

    135. Re:Islam, eh? by yahiatt · · Score: 1

      It's not all lies. This for instance is thrue: "Muhammad married a 6-year-old girl and had sex with her when she was nine."

      Get informed: http://www.faithfreedom.org/

      Few decades ago , and all over the world , it was legal and totally right to get married to a girl as soon as she got her menstruation because the menstruation is the last phase in puberty , consent age is different from a country to another and from a person to another , in england it was fine to get married at 2 and it happened in 1564 . Since the age of consent is variable from a person to another , its wrong to specify a constant age , instead we should make a rule that prohibits marriage unless both husbands reach puberty , whatever age that was . Farmers can specify how much time a fruit needs to ripe , but they will not harvest it until it the nature gives them the signs (color and size ).

    136. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two different points, the mulligan was if god whacked adam and eve. The egyptian thing was a separate point I'm thinking.

    137. Re:Islam, eh? by DigiShaman · · Score: 0, Troll

      *sigh*

      It's obvious the parent was modded a troll because FACTS are disturbing!!! Everyone needs to understand is that genuine evil permeates all of humanity regardless of your beliefs or lack there of.

      Human beings are animals. Some are simply more civilized than others depending on whome you associate yourself with. Deal with it.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    138. Re:Islam, eh? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      But there are exceptions to some of these rules. If your brother died without children, you were supposed to get his widow pregnant.

      True, though that exception (and rule) may still fall outside one's definition of incest. Know of any more direct incest examples? I confess I don't have much argument about Adam & Eve's children, but how else is a species of 2 supposed to multiply much more than that?

      This was the story of Onan, where some religions get their prohibition against masturbation.

      I only know that various denominations of Christianity use that passage. I am unaware of Judaism and Islam's interpretation.

      they should have gotten the prohibition against misleading women and failing to fulfill family obligations.

      I would think Onan's fate was warning enough, though a penalty was spelled out in Deuteronomy 25:5-10. Seems like a metaphorical slap on the wrist, though. I presume the potency of the social stigma is lost in translation.

    139. Re:Islam, eh? by yahiatt · · Score: 1

      WTF does that have to do with the barbarity of modern Islam?

      Umm, nothing?

      Barbarity of the modern Islam ? this is a hypocrite world , invading a country and killing MILLIONS of innocent people in the excuse of imaginary WMDs that where never found is what then ? stealing a whole country and terrorizing and mass murdering its owners claiming that God gave them the right is not barbarity ? muslims ARE the victims here , they are getting murdered stolen and labeled as insurgents .

      Except that Christianity today isn't practiced that way.

      Then whose teachings are you following if not your God's? who do you consider more wise than your God ?

      ISLAM, on the other hand, most empatically IS practiced with that MEDEIVAL BARBARISM .

      Honor killings, anyone? Care to guess the religion that murders rape victims because they've been "dishonored"????

      Got the balls to answer NOW?

      That actually happens because some ignorants got away from following the real Islam , give me ONE text from Quran or Hadith that allows muslims to kill the raped girl ?????

    140. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a Muslim by name. it means that I'm born in an Islamic country (IRAN), so they named me a Muslim (which means someone who believes in Islam). I started my post with this fact, to make it clear that I don't get angry, or sad when someone insults Islam or Mohammad. but I think when someone (or a group of people) really believe in something, it is good practice to respect their beliefs if it is intended to respect them.

      when I was a teenager I thought it is good to have a religion. I started to act as Islam says. as time went on I stopped doing some stuff Islam says to do, and started doing some stuff that Islam says not to do. for example I do drink alcoholic drinks occasionally. nowadays I do not call myself a religious man, because I'm not tied to the detailed instructions that Islam (or other religions) say. but there are some things I have learned in my life:

      1. it is good to believe in some steady, strong, Superior, existence who loves you and have good intentions for you. you name it GOD, or ALLAH, AHOORA, ... .

      2. there are many things that are in all religions, that CAN BE IGNORED, simply because of TIME. all great religions started many many years ago and their habits and instructions were designed at that time. not all of them apply to today's life. for example I (raised in an Islamic country) never heard, or saw anything encouraging to marry children. but I have seen in the news that in local, small, not so civilized villages there are LOCAL CULTURES to marry children. I have read in books that in the time of MOHAMMAD, it was very natural for under 12 year old girls to marry and boys used to marry when they were like 15. but remember, it was 1400 years ago. I'm not sure if the average age of a man was more than 50 years back then. there were no advanced medicine, and many men/women were killed in local wars. so it was not very awkward that they marry so soon. they had to keep their generation. but as I said, time has changed, and so cultures. nowadays average age of marriage in my country is 25-27. and all this stuff is just a matter of time/culture. not religion.

      3. there are many details carried on by stories and books written by different men (who could made mistakes at their time) that are now considered as PATCHES to religions and none of us actually can differ these from the body of the religion. trying to use these PATCHES, and judge a religion is not a good thing. because NOBODY is sure why it was said like this. for example about MOHAMMAD being married to a child, I should say I have never heard or read of it (surprised?). I have heard from my religion teachers in school that MOHAMMAD had many wives, if I'm not wrong he had 40 wives. we asked our teacher why he did this, and didn't those women have problems with this fact. our teacher (who could be wrong for sure) replied MOHAMMAD did not marry all those women to enjoy their partnership. he had his own wife (named KHADIJE, the first woman who believed in ISLAM). but it was ARAB culture back then (not ISLAM culture) to have multiple wives. and most of these women were widows whose husbands were killed in local wars, and needed a family. I'm not saying this is the best answer, and I'm not saying that this is not.

      4. in every field, there are misinterpretations. specially where things are not clear so much. say not well documented history, or religion. unfortunately there have always been radicalism in every religion/culture. people who wanted their lives to be extrema. I have read in books, seen in the movies that the church used to burn people who had illegal believes many years ago. this does not mean that church is bad. this means that at some point, there were misinterpretation of some instructions, and lead to some awful results. radical Muslims today do exist, and they do act awful things. but they are very rare (in contrast to number of all Muslims). and something important, please accept it from me as someone living in another country/region. unfortunately MEDIA is not as clean as people thin

    141. Re:Islam, eh? by jandersen · · Score: 1

      It is quite startling that your post is modded "informative" - just goes to show, eh?

      Islam is the Middle East's response to the Mormon religion/cult

      As far as I can see, you can say the same about more or less every major religion - Christianity was a protest-religion, founded as a "better" Judaism, which was in its turn a "better" Middle-East city-god religion etc. If you read the Bible closely, you can see that the history of the people of Israel was a long series of glorified atrocities, that Jesus allegedly was rather fond of children and "laid hands on them" - which could be interpreted in several ways, if your mind is dirty enough (mine is, apparently). And so on, and so on. It's all in the fucking Bible. Seriously.

      You see, just like Christianity is not what is in the Bible, but what is in the minds of the Christians, Islam is not what is in the Qur'an, but what is in the hearts of the Muslims. If one were to look at Jesus the way you look at Muhammad, as simply a person, what do we see? A middle-class sort of guy, who for reasons unknown run away into the desert, then comes back as a wild-eyed preacher and trouble-maker who upsets the establishment by beeing too much of a smart-ass and then is executed because he stupidly walk right into a wasps' nest and starts kicking influential people in the fork. As you are aware, this is not the way Christians normally read the story - as I said, it is what is in the hearts of the believers that matters; both Christianity and Islam have lent their names to the worst atrocities imaginable, and still do - on the other hand, some of the best and most beautiful things we humans are capable of have sprung from religious roots as well. In other words, it is not the religion that determines this, it is WHAT IS IN YOUR HEART.

    142. Re:Islam, eh? by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Projecting 2009 Western culture on 1400 year old stories from the Middle East may make Muhammad seem like a child molester, until you realize that was standard practice for the day.

      Even if you accept that that makes it more acceptable (I don't), this creates a huge problem in that Muslims are, by their religion, expected to emulate the ways of Mohammed today, in the 21st century. So, even if the behaviour was 'OK' back in the day, it shouldn't be considered now, so their religion creates a problem in telling them to emulate him.

    143. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I confess I don't have much argument about Adam & Eve's children, but how else is a species of 2 supposed to multiply much more than that?

      As I recall Adam and Eve only had two children and they were both sons, I'm not quite sure how a species is supposed to multiply at all from that situation, but they found wives from somewhere, perhaps they made them from their own ribs ;)

    144. Re:Islam, eh? by xaxa · · Score: 1

      you mean atheists should flood google somehow to point people at websites that discuss how completely absurd believing in the invisible sky man is?

      Atheists (well, humanists) in the UK recently paid for adverts to be put on the side of buses "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."
      http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/

      This was a response to some Christian bus adverts which directed people to a website telling them the invisible sky daddy didn't like them and would hurt them after they were dead.

      What do religious people search for, anyway?

    145. Re:Islam, eh? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Even if you accept that that makes it more acceptable (I don't), this creates a huge problem in that Muslims are, by their religion, expected to emulate the ways of Mohammed today, in the 21st century. So, even if the behaviour was 'OK' back in the day, it shouldn't be considered now, so their religion creates a problem in telling them to emulate him.

      This is a valid criticism of today's Muslims, not of Muhammad. Of course, one could ask if forcing Western value on the Middle Eastern peoples is a valid task, a debate into which I will not enter.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    146. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To make a point about the marriage to the 6 year old girl, etc.

      It is disingenuous to flame Islam only for what was going on around the world "in those days".

      I'm not for or against anything you have said, the facts can be debated ad nauseum. I do not know the real truth, and I bet neither do many in this thread (including you??? I'll let you answer that).

      In my opinion ... relax.

    147. Re:Islam, eh? by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      That actually sounds like an idea...

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    148. Re:Islam, eh? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      Seth
      ... and more

    149. Re:Islam, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "orthodox" jews in Israel make it a sport to starve out an entire people because their religion tells them it's their chunk of land.

      Whaaa?

  3. Imagine by Alarindris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dear Religion,

    You are a pain in the ass. Please go away soon.

    Imagine there's no countries.
    It isn't hard to do.
    Nothing to kill or die for,
    And no religion too.
    Imagine all the people,
    Living life in peace.

    Love,
    Sane People

    1. Re:Imagine by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      You jest, but your point is well taken. Gaming a search engine into delivering happy shiny results from a search on a major worldwide religion isn't going to stop fanatical adherents to said faith from blowing themselves and others up. This has got to be one of the worst cases of public sector idiocy I've ever seen.

    2. Re:Imagine by MrMr · · Score: 3, Funny

      This has got to be one of the worst cases of public sector idiocy I've ever seen
      Really?. The UK has an official state religion; Top that.

    3. Re:Imagine by Malenfrant · · Score: 1

      This has got to be one of the worst cases of public sector idiocy I've ever seen.

      You must not have been following the antics of the British government recently then

    4. Re:Imagine by Alarindris · · Score: 1

      Hell no, I'm serious. I'm sick of having voodoo and superstition shoved down my throat and being frowned upon for resisting it.

    5. Re:Imagine by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      If religion is a pain in the arse then you are doing it wrong.

    6. Re:Imagine by tg123 · · Score: 1

      ..................
      Imagine there's no countries.

      It isn't hard to do.

      Nothing to kill or die for,

      And no religion too.

      Imagine all the people,

      Living life in peace. .............

      Imagine there's no heaven
      It's easy if you try
      No hell below us
      Above us only sky

      Imagine all the people
      Living for today, aah haa

      Imagine there's no county
      It isn't hard to do
      Nothing to kill or die for
      And no religion too

      Imagine all the people
      Living life in peace, you ooh

      You may say I'm a dreamer
      But I'm not the only one
      I hope someday you'll join us
      And the world will be as one

      Imagine no possessions
      I wonder if you can
      No need for greed or hunger
      A brotherhood of man

      Imagine all the people
      Sharing all the world, you ooh

      You may say I'm a dreamer
      But I'm not the only one
      I hope someday you'll join us
      And the world will live as one

      Imagine 1971
      John Lennon

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw

      John Lennon sung such a beautiful song it was just such a let down when I found out he was worth approx. 40 million at the time.

    7. Re:Imagine by sy5t3m · · Score: 1

      Tell that to the Catholic priests :-P

    8. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear "Sane People,"

      Apparently sanity means living in some fantasy world. People will continue to find reasons to kill each other. Patriotism and religion are little banners to rally people behind, getting rid of them won't change the fundamental social issues which lead to conflict.
      People die because of disagreements about which plants you're allowed to smoke, how many cells does it take to make something human, and which sports team they like more. We have wars because two groups argue over what share of the pie each person gets, who has better skin, and even how best to be peaceful. Hell, we have an old great story where thousands of men die because some dude couldn't hold onto his hot wife.

      When you fix the problems of starvation, poverty, social equality, then find good answers to the "big" philosophical questions, you might be surprised when I just disappear. Until then, I'm gonna keep hanging out here on earth.

      Warmest Regards,
      Religion

    9. Re:Imagine by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the same thing works replacing "no religion" with "homogenised religion".

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    10. Re:Imagine by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Their biggest mistake is failing to understand the militant Islamic movement. It has far less to do with religion and far more to do with male chauvinist pigs, the misogynists. Their underlying hatred of the west has far more to do with the equality of women than it does with prophets and gods.

      No amount of propaganda or reason will change their attitudes, there is no middle ground by which they can be approached. They see the independence of women on western media and they feel threatened and they know that their abusive lifestyles are at risk, life styles based upon dominance and abuse and that is the way they react to that threat, with arrogance and violence.

      They simply use the masquerade of religious belief to hide behind, a mask to hide the violent lusts that drive actions. They have very reason to feel threatened, their immoral and unethical lifestyles are coming to an end and those that refuse to change will either spend the rest of their lives in prison or perish in their violent struggle.

      So the government needs to basically get down and dirty, and break that association and expose the underlying motivation of destructive militant religious movements (to be fair here, the same can be said for fundamentalist Christianity as for Islam).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    11. Re:Imagine by Alarindris · · Score: 1

      John Lennon sung such a beautiful song it was just such a let down when I found out he was worth approx. 40 million at the time.

      Yeah no shit, I hate it when artists I like get compensated by hundreds of millions of people who also like them.

      ???

    12. Re:Imagine by jmv · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've been told that in some places in the US, the song gets edited to say "And *one* religion too". Kind of changes the intent a bit, doesn't it.

    13. Re:Imagine by BigBadBus · · Score: 1

      Imagine I'm my father It isn't hard to do I look exactly like him And I sing just like him too Imagine all my records Selling by the ton Just for the simple reason I'm John Lennon's son - Imagine, Julian Lennon

    14. Re:Imagine by BigBadBus · · Score: 1

      Whoops no formatting. typo hic!

    15. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love it when people assume that the moment religion disappears everyone will start holding hands and singing songs together.

      It's not the cause of conflict, it's used as a scapegoat for conflict.

    16. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm going to invoke Godwin's Law in this comment, but I think it's worth mentioning:

      In the 20th century, both Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany imagined - and tried to create - societies where there was no religion. Consider the number of people who suffered and died under both regimes. I'm not sure where the view originated that the world's problems are caused by people of a religious belief, but there are two very striking counter-examples.

      Some people have used religion as a reason for committing atrocities. True. Others have used different philosophies and ideologies. Also true.

      People have done great good because of their religious convictions (e.g., Wilberforce and the anti-slavery movement, even today, many Christians are involved in projects like "Stop the Traffik" (http://www.stopthetraffik.org/)) because social justice is a part of their belief. People with no religious belief also do great charitable works.

      The world's a lot more complex than "Imagine" suggests.

    17. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dear Religion, You are a pain in the ass. Please go away soon.

      Although religious nutjobs are an easy target, please try to remember that the problem is with the "nutjob", not the "religious", and the atheists can field a fair number of nutjobs too. Militant atheist Sam Harris, according to "The End of Faith" apparently wants to see humanity exterminated, religious and atheist alike, rather than allow religion to continue to exist, which comes over as "nutjob" to me. And "The End of Faith" comes with an endorsement from Richard Dawkins (although I don't know whether Dawkins endorses that particular bit). Basically, if somebody wants to kill me because my beliefs differ from theirs, or as collateral damage getting to somebody whose beliefs differ from theirs, I don't care whether they're religious or atheist, I'm opposed to them.

      So how about: "Dear persecution in the name of ideology, you are a pain in the ass. Please go away soon."

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    18. Re:Imagine by Alarindris · · Score: 1

      Maybe more like "Dear wilful ignorance". It's not the persecution or ideology that bothers me, it's the blatant denial of reality.

    19. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In the 20th century, both Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany imagined - and tried to create - societies where there was no religion.

      Wrong. Nazi Germany did not. The storm troopers' belt buckles used to say, "Gott mit Uns."

      That's propaganda put about by the believers to try to persuade people that atheism leads to totalitarian fascism.

    20. Re:Imagine by BlueParrot · · Score: 1

      Really?. The UK has an official state religion; Top that.

      The US has a state religion but pretends not to; Top that.

    21. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Their biggest mistake is failing to understand the militant Islamic movement. It has far less to do with religion and far more to do with male chauvinist pigs, the misogynists. Their underlying hatred of the west has far more to do with the equality of women than it does with prophets and gods.

      You think it's genetic or something? That no matter how these people were raised, no matter what belief system they have, they would still be chauvinists?

      It's a minor distinction because I agree with you that Islam and chauvinism are intertwined. I just think it's pretty clear that the overarching belief system into which you are born has a big impact on your attitude towards women, not the other way around.

      So the government needs to basically get down and dirty, and break that association and expose the underlying motivation of destructive militant religious movements (to be fair here, the same can be said for fundamentalist Christianity as for Islam).

      There are LOTS of fundamentalist Christians in the US and how much terrorism are they responsible for? Compare that to the number of fundamentalist Muslims also in the US who were arrested for terrorism plots. It's nice and PC to add "oh and also Christianity" but it's not very realistic.

    22. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      To be honest, I don't care whether people live in their own fantasy worlds or not, as long as they leave me alone and in particular don't try to kill me. And the atheists are not above wilful ignorance -- in "The End of Faith", Sam Harris insists that his own ethical position is based on assumptions about human nature that are so obvious that it "need not be validated by a controlled study" (p192) -- this in a chapter on "The Science of Good and Evil" (my emphasis), so the "science" on which Harris calls for our extermination -- yours and mine -- is a "science" that needn't bother with study when Harris already "knows" the answer.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    23. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please remember to cite this as being taken from John Lennon's song "Imagine".

    24. Re:Imagine by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Fundamentalist Christians are violent? And they're violent because they hate women?

      Are you confused?

      To be fair, I think you make a very valid point about radical Islamist, but whatever their impetus, they are clearly emboldened by Koranic verses demanding death to infidels as well as the subjugation of women. But, you just don't find those parallels in the New Testament.

    25. Re:Imagine by dintech · · Score: 2, Informative

      Either your geography is bad or you didn't even look at that map. Notice it's just England, not the whole UK that has a state religion. Scotland, Wales and Northern Island, which are also constituent parts of the UK, don't have a state religion. Please stop calling the UK England and vice versa. They're NOT the same thing.

    26. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      You're right in theory but naming a handful of militant atheists is like blowing in the wind. There are thousands and thousands of Muslims who are actively engaging in floggings, stonings, beheadings, suicide bombings, and the like. You can watch videos of it online. Have you seen any atheist beheading videos lately? And then behind the thousands of active terrorists there are millions and millions of Muslims who support, rationalize, and defend their behavior. Millions out of 1.5 billion or whatever is a small percentage, sure, but it's a much, much, much larger threat than whatever you fear atheists are up to. Watering down a condemnation of that behavior just so you can include a handful of crazy atheists... it's not helping anybody.

    27. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has got to be one of the worst cases of public sector idiocy I've ever seen.

      It *is* the UK. Something more idiotic will be along in a fortnight at most. That's a promise.

    28. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Religions of all sorts get a lot of unwarranted blame for the flaws of human nature. Belief in the supernatural forms a necessary support for millions of people, whether you like it or not. According to you, if we get rid of religion, everybody would behave in a sane and rational manner and we would apparently live in Nirvana. Fact is a small minority of fanatics cause mayhem. If they didn't have religion, it would be Death To the Global Warmers, or maybe just simply war and slaughter for the traditional reasons of conquest, avarice or desire to enslave others. Sorry your species is a disappointment to to you, but as you are clearly a Darwinist, perhaps you should look at how human beings have naturally evolved to be destructive, rather than blame religion for our ills.

    29. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If religion is a pain in the arse then you are doing it wrong.

      Unless you're an altar boy.

    30. Re:Imagine by CodeArtisan · · Score: 1

      This has got to be one of the worst cases of public sector idiocy I've ever seen Really?. The UK has an official state religion; Top that.

      The "UK" does *not* have a state religion. England may have, but England != UK. In fact, if you had even bothered to read the article you linked, you would have seen that:

      "the Church of Scotland is the national church, but is not a "state church" and has complete independence from the state in spiritual matters, thus being both established and free"

    31. Re:Imagine by blackpaw · · Score: 1

      Love the way you espouse a theory pulled out of your ass as fact.

    32. Re:Imagine by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      AFAIR, Harris does not advocate nuking the Earth. He just says that fundamental religion is as bad as the depopulated Earth.

      I tend to agree with him.

    33. Re:Imagine by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      Stalin and Hitler created their own cults. They took it to an extreme is all, much like we do with our cult of Consumerism.

    34. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      You've got United Kingdom, Great Britain, Britain, the Commonwealth, some names about the Crown (I forget)... and they all seem to mean different things. You have to admit it's rather confusing. Getting upset about it is a bit silly though.

    35. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It has far less to do with religion and far more to do with male chauvinist pigs, the misogynists."

      You don't know how right you are. :-( A sad day. What a bunch of cowards for killing a 52-year-old women who was simply speaking her mind.

      But then, Islam is hardly unique in terms of misogyny, and some Islamic countries are genuinely more enlightened than others. Also, if you turned back the clock a mere 50 years in most western countries, women weren't exactly treated well either. We mostly got over it. Slowly. And both men and women are better off for it. But apparently men in some parts of the world are still frightened by the prospects of women having any political or social say in their lives -- frightened enough to kill a brave women who wasn't afraid to do what was right. And now the killers will hide behind their religion as an excuse for their abominable actions. What an insult.

    36. Re:Imagine by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1, Troll


      Dubious, dubious statistics. Firstly, atheists are a minority at the current time, world wide so even if the percentage of atheists that were "militant" were the same as amongst muslims, you'd still be able to point out that there were more of the religious type. It's a non-scientific argument. Secondly you have to control for other factors. How well does atheism correlate with rich populations enjoying periods of peace compared to poor populations under non-democratic rule and / or recent or ongoing periods of conflict? How are these correlations for Islam?

      Regarding the percentage of muslims that "support, rationalize, and defend their [terrorists] behavior", I'm going to have to ask for both citations and tight definitions of terrorism. The US government calls every act of violence against US troops in Iraq an act by "terrorist" forces. Do many Iraqi's support driving the invading US troops out of Iraq? Yes. Did those same people support the attack on the World Trade Centre by a group that had nothing to do with them? Predominantly not, I would make an educated guess at. So you really need to define what you're talking about when you say terrorism, because the USA and UK governments have used the word in all sorts of inventive ways over the last eight years.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    37. Re:Imagine by ikkonoishi · · Score: 1

      The only way that could happen is to wipe out all life on earth. Not just humans. All life. So long as life exists there will always be something to kill or die for. There will always be competition. There will always be cooperation. There will always be hate. There will always be love. There will always be someone just wanting it all to stop. A peaceful life is an oxymoron. The only thing that can truly be peaceful is death.

    38. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Different names meaning different things, how confusing.

    39. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      He says that a nuclear first strike on the Muslim world "may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe", despite the fact that he reckons there would probably be a Muslim retaliation "in which much of the world's population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas..." (note: he doesn't see it as being because of the nuclear first strike, which he sees as rational and scientific, but the fault of Muslims for not agreeing with him in the first place).

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    40. Re:Imagine by dargaud · · Score: 1

      Their underlying hatred of the west has far more to do with the equality of women than it does with prophets and gods.

      I was very neutral towards religion, which I'd never been exposed to, until at about 20 I met a moslem exchange student at a party. While doing small talk he said exactly about the West: "How do you want us to respect a country where women sing ?"

      This quote opened my eyes and ever since I've been very aware of all the damages that (all) religions bring.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    41. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Firstly, atheists are a minority at the current time, world wide so even if the percentage of atheists that were "militant" were the same as amongst muslims, you'd still be able to point out that there were more of the religious type. It's a non-scientific argument.

      I disagree. An argument based on hard numbers and evidence of present actions is much more sound than a nebulous hand-waving about potential threats that don't yet exist (as you admit here) and one which you haven't even accounted for external factors (as you admit in the next point).

      If anybody were making an argument that we should *encourage* atheist militancy as a counter to religious militancy, you'd have a point because then we'd have to take into account future consequences of that increased militancy, but I don't think anybody is doing that.

      Secondly you have to control for other factors. How well does atheism correlate with rich populations enjoying periods of peace compared to poor populations under non-democratic rule and / or recent or ongoing periods of conflict? How are these correlations for Islam?

      Okay go for it. I don't think you'll be able to. How do you put a hard number on violence or standard of living? Even among relatively similar societies it's very difficult to scientifically state that country A is "nicer" than country B.

      Regarding the percentage of muslims that "support, rationalize, and defend their [terrorists] behavior", I'm going to have to ask for both citations and tight definitions of terrorism.

      I can't give you a tight definition of terrorism. It's very subjective. Terrorism to Muslims is very different than terrorism to non-Muslims, for instance. Many would say that filming a beheading and showing it to others as a warning is terrorism, Muslims might say that it's a valid battle technique, and in fact many will argue that beheading is humane since you go into shock immediately and don't feel any pain or some crap. (I've heard it.)

      Here's a poll about the tube bombings in England: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

      99% of British Muslims condemn the tube bombings! Yay! 1% actually said they totally support them. 1% is larger than the "millions and millions" thing I stated... that would require less than 0.1%.

      But the important part is that 20% feel sympathetic to their motives. That's what I meant by rationalizing. Muslims have this peculiar way of being "against" specific terrorist acts, but sympathizing with the terrorists' motives. Then when they talk about the solution to terrorism, it has nothing to do with them or their community but simply to make the host country more compatible with Islam so that terrorists don't feel the need to do bad things.

      If you have been reading about the situation in Pakistan in the last few years, you can see what I was talking about ALL OVER. Nobody in Pakistan endorses the Taliban, yet a majority support making peace deals with the Taliban that gives them exclusive control over the border lands and tribal areas. You see, they'll say, these tribal cultures are very radical anyway, that style of Islam suits them. Completely ignoring the hundreds of thousands of refugees that have fled those regions as the Taliban takes over! They have no problem with the Taliban spreading the influence of Islam in other areas, as long as it's not their own. Note I'm not talking about attacks on US troops, I'm talking about the takeover of portions of their own country and civilian portions of Afghanistan. If you go online and check out the beheading videos, the bombings of girls' schools, the public beatings, the mutilation of dead bodies of policemen and "agents of the west" in these regions, I really don't see how you can argue that it's not terrorism, even without a "tight" definition.

    42. Re:Imagine by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Imagine there's no countries.
      It isn't hard to do.
      Nothing to kill or die for,
      And no religion too.
      Imagine all the people,
      Living life in peace.

      Every time I imagine that it turns out there's nothing to live for either. You're not sane for wanting to destroy every basis of human civilization.

    43. Re:Imagine by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      To be honest, I don't care whether people live in their own fantasy worlds or not, as long as they leave me alone and in particular don't try to kill me.

      That's a complete fallacy. In reality, we all live in the same world. These people are trying to make the world we all live in into their fantasy world -- this wouldn't be so bad if it weren't impossible because it's based on their ridiculous mythology.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    44. Re:Imagine by FudRucker · · Score: 1

      i agree wholeheartedly! the fucking christians that spew their poisonous brain-rot daily just makes me livid...

      there is no god, no satan, when someone dies they enter the second eternal non-existence, (= a person did not exist for an eternity before they are born and they will not exist for an eternity after they die) the life we have now is all you get so make the best of it, dont turn criminal because now you dont have to worry about a non-existent god sending you to hell, but because civilization & society will catch you and put you in prison, do what is right simply because it is the right thing to do.

      HappyTrails :D

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    45. Re:Imagine by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      While they are at it can they do something about the cop killing racist gun nuts in the US? Thanks.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    46. Re:Imagine by syousef · · Score: 1

      Imagine there's no countries.
      It isn't hard to do.
      Nothing to kill or die for,
      And no religion too.
      Imagine all the people,
      Living life in peace.

      Beautiful words.

      Pity they were written by a ill behaved drunken drugged up self indulgent rude prat who studied ancient religious texts with Indian guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Which makes him a fucking hypocrite. People don't want to speak ill of the dead but does that really mean we have to romanticise reality? Imagine if those lyrics were written by someone who lived them.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    47. Re:Imagine by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      No countries = 1984 = death of freedom.

      You must be very, very retarded, or totally delusional to seriously wish there were no countries.
      It would result in there being one government.
      Which would result in there being no escape from the fucked-up rules they create.
      Which would result in a total loss of freedom in the long run.

      Where would you go for asylum, if the world government happens to become a theater in the spotlight, and totalitarian behind the scenes? To the moon?
      There would be the same two-"party" play. The same fucked-up lobbies, only much much stronger, and no freedom for any differing points of view.
      It would become like Wikipedia. But without the language sub-domains.

      I can't imagine anyone wanting that, except for
      1. the totally uninformed and delusional, and
      2. those that would then have the power in their hands.

      Well, hmm... how about me being the one with the power then? ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    48. Re:Imagine by david.given · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The best description I've seen of how it all actually works is here:

      The Great British Venn Diagram

      Personally, I quite like the fact that I live in a country that needs a four-colour diagram to adequately describe. It neatly fits in with my concept of how the world actually works.

    49. Re:Imagine by david.given · · Score: 1

      Militant atheist Sam Harris, according to "The End of Faith" apparently wants to see humanity exterminated, religious and atheist alike, rather than allow religion to continue to exist, which comes over as "nutjob" to me.

      Well, yeah; atheism is a religion. It's a religion based around belief in the absence of a god, rather than belief in the existence of a god, but it's still just a belief like any other. And as such, it's going to attract its fair share of fanatics and nutjobs just like any other religion.

      "Dear persecution in the name of ideology, you are a pain in the ass. Please go away soon."

      Hear, hear.

    50. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I also like this diagram of field positions for cricket: http://usa.cricinfo.com/perl/picture.cgi/001513

      I first saw it on the travel channel. This guy was explaining how simple cricket is to an American tourist, and they did an animation that added the positions one by one.. it was hilarious.

    51. Re:Imagine by SBFCOblivion · · Score: 1

      There are LOTS of fundamentalist Christians in the US and how much terrorism are they responsible for? Compare that to the number of fundamentalist Muslims also in the US who were arrested for terrorism plots. It's nice and PC to add "oh and also Christianity" but it's not very realistic.

      Being that Christianity is much older it had a head start on all the violence. Just because it doesn't happen now doesn't mean it never did.

    52. Re:Imagine by dotancohen · · Score: 1
      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    53. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's this guy you might of heard of, being a christian revisionist and all. His name was Martin Luther, he sort of fathered protestantism.
      Anyways, a certain book of his is titled "On the Jews and Their Lies" and describes Jews as a "base, whoring people", "full of the devil's feces" and advocates burning synagogues, schools and homes, confiscation of money and property, forced labour, removal of any legal protections and tolerance for murder of Jews.

      I wonder if any of this sounds familiar?

    54. Re:Imagine by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Imagine there's no countries.
      It isn't hard to do.
      Nothing to kill or die for,
      And no religion too.
      Imagine all the people,
      Living life in peace.

      Religions don't kill people: people kill people.

    55. Re:Imagine by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ~10 Muslims were arrested for terrorist plots in the US. In the same time frame hundreds of doctors have been threatened, and some have been murdered, for providing women with abortions. Let's not forget the murder of Matthew Sheppard. There are 2 abortion providers in Mississippi, all the others have been forced out of Mississippi by harassment. In Mississippi many pharmacies do not carry oral contraceptives. Doctors who prescribe the morning after pill frequently find their patients cannot find the drug. The Christians in the United States do not resort to terrorism because they have already won.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    56. Re:Imagine by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      99% of British Muslims condemn the tube bombings! Yay! 1% actually said they totally support them. 1% is larger than the "millions and millions" thing I stated... that would require less than 0.1%.

      Why is it that bigotry and stupidity always seem to be correlated? Here's a little sum for you:

      1. Total population of the United Kingdom: 61 million.
      2. 1 percent of 61 million = 610000. In words: Sixhunderd-and-ten thousand.

      And now for the final question: is slightly more than half a million more or less than 'millions and millions'?

      Do you have to work at being so stupid, or does it come naturally?

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    57. Re:Imagine by sy5t3m · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Atheism can either be the belief that there is no god, or a lack of belief in the existence of a god. Even in the first case, it's no more a religion than the assertion that santa, the tooth fairy, humpty dumpty or the invisible pink unicorn don't exist.

      Asserting that santa exists and talks to you in your head would be considered eccentric at best, grounds for involuntary commitment at worst. It's considered sane and normal (and not at all religious) to hold that santa does not exist. Somehow it's entirely different when the same concept is applied to a 2000 year old jewish zombie who is his own father though.

    58. Re:Imagine by JDSalinger · · Score: 1

      "Militant atheist Sam Harris, according to "The End of Faith" apparently wants to see humanity exterminated, religious and atheist alike, rather than allow religion to continue to exist, which comes over as "nutjob" to me."

      This is a lie! Please cite. I have read the book twice and nowhere in it does this lunacy appear. Nothing close. Sam Harris poured succinct insight into American religious discourse with that book. Please actually read it.

      Some actual quotes (concepts he espouses) from Sam Harris are found here: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sam_Harris

      "It is difficult to imagine a set of beliefs more suggestive of mental illness than those that lie at the heart of many of our religious traditions."

      "Where we have reasons for what we believe, we have no need of faith; where we have no reasons, we have lost both our connection to the world and to one another."

      "We must find our way to a time when faith, without evidence, disgraces anyone who would claim it."

      "It is imperative that we begin speaking plainly about the absurdity of most of our religious beliefs."

      "We have Christians against Muslims against Jews. They're making incompatible claims on real estate in the Middle East as though God were some kind of omniscient real estate broker parsing out parcels of land to his chosen flock. People are literally dying over ancient literature."

      "Mormonism, it seems to me, is--objectively--just a little more idiotic than Christianity is. It has to be: because it is Christianity plus some very stupid ideas."

      "I've read the books. God is not a moderate. There's no place in the books where God says, 'You know, when you get to the New World and you develop your three branches of government and you have a civil society, you can just jettison all the barbarism I recommended in the first books.'"

      "Only 28 percent of Americans believe in evolution; 68 percent believe in Satan."

      "If Jesus does come down out of the clouds like a superhero, Christianity will stand revealed as a science. That will be the science of Christianity."

      DIGITIG, YOU HAVE DELIBERATELY LIED TO THE READERS.

    59. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >In the 20th century, both Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany imagined - and tried to create - societies where there was no religion.

      Only if you don't count cults of personality.

    60. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the US has secular terrorists.

    61. Re:Imagine by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Is the Church of Scotland not the state religion of Scotland? It's certainly referred to as the 'national religion'. The head of state of the UK is also the head of the Church of England and the upper house (the House of Lords) which governs the UK has several positions appointed by the Church of England, so I'm not sure how you can argue that it is the state religion of England but not of the UK. No one in the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Irish and Welsh assembly governments is appointed by the CoE, but they are subordinate to the Westminster Parliament. Unless you can point to specific religious laws that govern England but not the rest of the UK (or, specifically, not Wales, since the Scottish legal system is different and has different rules with respect to divorce, among other things) then your argument is somewhat weak.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    62. Re:Imagine by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      You fail. Atheism is just another religion. Parent is talking about the elimination of religious influence, which would be agnosticism.

    63. Re:Imagine by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      According to the 2001 census, there were around 1,600,000 British Muslims. 1% of this gives 16,000 people. An uncomfortably large number, but to put it in perspective the British National Party[1] won 192,746 votes; i.e. there is an order of magnitude more fascist voters in the UK than there are muslims who agree with terrorist actions. Fortunately, both of these numbers are very small as a percentage of the total population and a long way away from 'millions and millions'.

      [1] In Britain, we have the distinction of being the only country with fascists who couldn't make the trains run on time.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    64. Re:Imagine by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      We sane people need to invade the countries with religion, kill all the adults and enslave all the children. That will solve the problem once and for all.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    65. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, let me phrase it this way: The atrocities performed by the Nazi's were not done in the name of any religion. You could have removed the religious symbolism from some of the Nazi propaganda and the result would have been the same. And if you can see any parallel between the teachings of Christ and the behaviour of the Nazi party, I'd be interested in seeing it.

      The point remains that while terrible things have been done in the name of religion, there are plenty of examples that demonstrate that humanity can act in very inhumane ways without needing a God to guide them.

      In other words, atheism isn't a panacea.

    66. Re:Imagine by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      It has far less to do with religion and far more to do with male chauvinist pigs, the misogynists [citation needed].

      Their underlying hatred of the west has far more to do with the equality of women than it does with prophets and gods.

      So it has nothing to do with European Jewry invasion of Palestine starging end of XIX century? Nothing to do with the war against Islam since the day one?

      No amount of propaganda or reason will change their attitudes, there is no middle ground by which they can be approached.

      That is true, in sha'aa Allah. We were killed, we are killed and we will be killed, in shaa'a Allah, for our beliefs in our quest for Jannah. Thank you.

      They see the independence of women on western media and they feel threatened [citation needed] and they know that their abusive lifestyles are at risk [citation needed] , life styles based upon dominance and abuse and that is the way they react to that threat, with arrogance and violence.

      They simply use the masquerade of religious belief to hide behind, a mask to hide the violent lusts that drive actions.

      Hypocricy which you are accusing us is a state of mind and it usually reveals in action, when people neglect difficult aspects of the religion and accept only what suits them. As far as I know Mujahedeen, they follow the religion in its entirety, the do not neglect not only five pillars of Islam, which includes daily prayers, fasting in Ramadhan, charity and Hajj, but also follow non-obligatory recommendations, such as nightly prayers (last third of the night) and memorizing Qur'an (requires a 100% devotion for 1 or 2 years), for example.

      They have very reason to feel threatened, their immoral and unethical lifestyles are coming to an end and those that refuse to change will either spend the rest of their lives in prison or perish in their violent struggle.

      Surely people who are not afraid to die, are not afraid to lose whatever style you are accusing them. You seem to be particularly concern about "women and Islam" subject. Trust me, most of the noble warriors of our beautiful religion have no contact with women at all, most of them die as virgins, not unlike many Slashdot geeks (analogy ends here). That style of life that involves lengthy absence of any contact with women involves not only foot soldiers (for those of you who are quick to draw the line between soldiers and commanders), but also the top commanders.

      So the government needs to basically get down and dirty, and break that association and expose the underlying motivation of destructive militant religious movements

      Bring it on. The Victory will be ours, you will be defeated in the Mother of The Most Humiliated Defeats, in shaa'a Allah.

      Allahu akbar.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    67. Re:Imagine by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Very eloquent, sir. I could not summarize it in fewer words, even if I wanted that very much.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    68. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, atheism isn't a panacea.

      Nobody said it was.

      What we conclude is that people will perform evil acts whether in the name of religion or not. The same can be said of good acts.

      The problem is, there is a sizable proportion of the world's population brainwashed into Believing or forced to Believe and made to carry out actions, some of which are abominable, in the name of those Beliefs by their leaders.

      Critical and free thought unfortunately are only respected and tolerated in some parts of the world. I get the impression that brainwashing, ignorance and blind obedience is the norm for the majority of the human race. This saddens me greatly.

    69. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      You are hilarious. Ignoring your gross error on the target population of the poll, well, it's embarrassing to even say, but maybe you should look up the word "extrapolation." Then ask yourself, if a poll of relatively westernized British Muslims yields X, what is the likely result of "extrapolating" that result to the rest of the Muslim world? Maybe you should do the "sum" of that?

      I hope I explained my thoughts well enough for your highly tuned brain to interpret the way I intended. I'm so stupid I probably used all the wrong words and the whole thing is garbage.

    70. Re:Imagine by palegray.net · · Score: 1

      You can't change history, but the fact that it isn't happening now does mean you don't need to chase those people around nowadays, worrying that they're going to blow up a school. Your argument of "but they did it in the past!" is tired.

    71. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To be honest, I don't care whether people live in their own fantasy worlds or not, as long as they leave me alone and in particular don't try to kill me.

      That's a complete fallacy. In reality, we all live in the same world. These people are trying to make the world we all live in into their fantasy world -- this wouldn't be so bad if it weren't impossible because it's based on their ridiculous mythology.

      My wife is a psychiatric nurse. She deals with lots of people who live in fantasy worlds but aren't trying to kill anybody. There are lots more that don't come within the remit of psychiatric services who live in fantasy worlds but aren't trying to kill anybody. On the other hand, there are ultra-rationalists who do want to kill me or don't care whether I die as collateral in their political and ideological conflicts. I say again, and it's not a fallacy: the issue isn't whether or not they're living in a fantasy world, it's whether they're trying to kill people.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    72. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being Russian I oppose.

      So called "communists" just replaced old religion with a new one. Lenin was considered to be a God, temples were built to praise him, there were rituals and priests, zealots and heretics, missionaries and inquisition. His body was kept as a relic, he was considered to be "eternally alive" and among his titles were "the Father of all nations" and "Grandfather of all children" (do not try to apply logic here).

      I'm not joking (I wish I did).

    73. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a minor distinction because I agree with you that Islam and chauvinism are intertwined. I just think it's pretty clear that the overarching belief system into which you are born has a big impact on your attitude towards women, not the other way around.

      Not to detract from the issue of terrorism or "Eastern" treatment of women, I recently witnessed the dynamics of our most prevalent Western influence regarding attitudes towards (and esteem of) women: TV and the marketplace. As an experiment, my wife has refrained from watching ads or any shows on TV, magazines, and not subjecting herself to the barrage of subtle and not so subtle teachings of the *inequality* of women - the effect is very noticeable; she is less stressed, more confident, feels better about herself (empowered), and others feel better about her (ie, treat her better than they have been). Seems that even in the West it is still a man's world, just not as overt as a caveman dragging their woman by her hair. As far as any hatred of the West having to do with the quality of woman, I'd say there's still a little bit left to be desired even tho we're ahead of some others.

    74. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      I disagree. An argument based on hard numbers and evidence of present actions is much more sound than a nebulous hand-waving about potential threats that don't yet exist (as you admit here) and one which you haven't even accounted for external factors (as you admit in the next point).

      It's not so long ago the threat was from the communists, the slogan was "better dead than red" and the real perceived problem with the communists was that they were "godless". A lot of my inlaws were killed by the Chinese during the cultural revolution. This isn't a "potential threat" that doesn't yet exist, this is something real that people of my generation lived through and that hasn't gone away yet. The most cursory examination of 20th century history would tell you that the problem isn't religion, the problem is blind ideology whatever flavour it comes in, and I'm no happier to be killed by a right- or left-wing extremist atheist than I am being killed by a religious fundamentalist.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    75. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To a law-abiding Iraqi who gets his/her house blown up b/c a Christian US Armed Forces Member guided it there thinking there was an enemy there; could think that the "Christians" were the terrorists.

      Imagine another country coming to your country and killing defenders of your soil, and calling them terrorists.

      Red Dawn=Terrorists?

    76. Re:Imagine by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      the issue isn't whether or not they're living in a fantasy world, it's whether they're trying to kill people.

      There's a lot of room for religion to cause harm without actually causing death. Ask anyone tortured but not killed by the inquisition, or for that matter any of these kids taught only about abstinence. To my mind there are two bad kinds of religious people: Those who are fucking up the world by expecting everyone to be like them, and those who are letting the world go to hell while assuming that they aren't. There are certainly people whose religion suggests that they go out and do good works but don't try to shit on people, and those people are not bad people. The rest of them are, and I'm not going to apologize for that.

      I want to say also that these kinds of badness are not reserved for the religious. All of us who have become too complacent to go out and make the world a better place instead of watching it go to hell on TV are jackasses, too.

      With all this said, I do not believe you can stamp out religion by eliminating religious freedom, so I'm not advocating the forcible elimination of the stuff. However, I think that an educated populace (and by educated I mean taught how to use their brain, not what to think with it) will eventually reject religion. So far, statistics have borne this out, as well as the converse; religion impedes education. (I'm prepared to defend that statement, don't worry. But I'd prefer to skip it until the next time the subject of education is the focus of the religion-bashing.)

      If you (the global you) are a good person, and you believe in God, that's okay. This comment wasn't for you, except perhaps as validation.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    77. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      ~10 Muslims were arrested for terrorist plots in the US.

      Check this out: http://wcbstv.com/topstories/Terrorism.New.York.2.244858.html

      There are way more than 10 arrests.

      Now no offense, but the things you listed aren't major attacks. An event like Matthew Shepard's murder is tragic, but it's just one person. My list includes attacks that would affect many people at once, like blowing up planes, bridges, building dirty bombs, etc. That's what I had in mind. Timothy McVeigh is a terrorist, but someone who kills one abortion doctor... that's kind of a stretch to me.

      If you want to talk about lower-level stuff, there's plenty of incidents that aren't on that list. For instance, remember the DC sniper? Would you count each killing as a terrorist attack?

    78. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      This is a lie! Please cite.

      Elsewhere in the thread I have backed this up with direct quotes (page 129 of the edition that I have). Sorry, but it's not a lie; you weren't reading carefully enough.

      DIGITIG, YOU HAVE DELIBERATELY LIED TO THE READERS.

      Nope, I just read the book more carefully than you did.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    79. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      You fail. Atheism is just another religion.

      Care to define religion in a way all of /. can agree on? I think I see goalposts moving...

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    80. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop the presses!!! You've discovered the property of subjectivity!

      Next thing you know you'll be all growed up and you'll learn about the act of analyzing a subjective situation and coming to your own decision about what's right and what's wrong. We call this process "judging". Now fly little birdie!

    81. Re:Imagine by Quothz · · Score: 1

      There are LOTS of fundamentalist Christians in the US and how much terrorism are they responsible for?

      Oh, quite a lot, really, since you you ask. Yes, these groups are all currently active, although only some are in the US.

    82. Re:Imagine by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, And no religion too. Imagine all the people, Living life in peace. Love, Sane People

      You mean like in the Soviet Union under Stalin? Or China under Mao? or Cambodia under Pol Pot?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    83. Re:Imagine by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      I took a worst-case scenario. And it was you who was using the UK numbers in the first place to try and bolster your 'millions and millions' claim. If you meant to extrapolate them world-wide, you should have said so.

      In other words, you're even too stupid to write comprehensible English.

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    84. Re:Imagine by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      As pointed out to the original dummy, I was taking a worst case by using the whole population of the UK. I agree, 16.000 who agree with extremists is worrying, but not more worrying than any other extremists.

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    85. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I don't know why you're so angry. I think you should read the entire thread and you'll see that explicitly stating that the statistics need to be extrapolated would be redundant. I was talking about the worldwide absolute numbers of extremist Muslims versus extremist atheists.

      Now if you can move past your goof up and your strange hatred of me, do you agree with that original point or not? Do you really think radical atheists, today in the here and now, post a bigger threat than radical Muslims? Or do you agree with me?

    86. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. Hitler - and you can research this yourself, believed in a mix of old German folktales, Nordic mythology, Karl Marx, was an admirer of Lenin (Google it) and admired the Japanese Mikado worship over the, as he called it, 'weak' Christianity. Hitlers troops murdered millions of Catholics in Poland and other areas too, certainly Hitler's boys' pro religious slant (as you may suggest it) did not save Father Maximilian Kolbe from being executed by the SS (nor any of the other Catholic clergy and followers of Catholicism - 3 million in Poland alone).

      You should visit Aushwitz and maybe read a bit about the Second World War and the way it played itself out in the East, especially in Poland, because what you're saying is untrue.

    87. Re:Imagine by servognome · · Score: 1

      There are LOTS of fundamentalist Christians in the US and how much terrorism are they responsible for? Compare that to the number of fundamentalist Muslims also in the US who were arrested for terrorism plots. It's nice and PC to add "oh and also Christianity" but it's not very realistic.

      Maybe you should look at the statistics.

      terrorism from 2002 through 2005. In keeping with a longstand- ing trend, domestic extremists carried out the majority of terrorist incidents during this period. Twenty three of the 24 recorded terrorist incidents were perpetrated by domestic terrorists. With the exception of white supremacist Sean Michael Gillespieâ(TM)s firebombing of a synagogue in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, all of the domestic terrorist incidents were committed by special interest extremists active in the animal rights and environmental movements...
      The terrorist preventions for 2002 through 2005 paint a more diverse threat picture. Eight of the 14 recorded terrorist preventions stemmed from right-wing extremism


      Christian fundamentalism hasn't backed down - Anti-abortionists, KKK, Waco, Jonestown, Christian identity, etc.

      While religion is a threat, clearly Animal & Environmentalism have caused far more terrorist destruction in the US.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    88. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although religious nutjobs are an easy target, please try to remember that the problem is with the "nutjob", not the "religious", and the atheists can field a fair number of nutjobs too. Militant atheist Sam Harris, according to "The End of Faith" apparently wants to see humanity exterminated, religious and atheist alike, rather than allow religion to continue to exist,

      Can you quote the section of "The End of Faith" that states that Sam Harris wants to see humanity exterminated? I must have missed that part when I read the book...

    89. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody said it was.

      John Lennon implies that it is in his song, Imagine.

    90. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of room for religion to cause harm without actually causing death. Ask anyone tortured but not killed by the inquisition, or for that matter any of these kids taught only about abstinence.

      Or, indeed, ask my wife about her schooldays, when friendship was forbidden (and team sports banned because they fostered friendship) because friendship meant treating some citizens more favourably than others. That was an attempt to seriously screw up social relationships (it failed dismally, fortunately) but of course was done in the name of an atheistic ideology (Maoism) rather than religion. As you say, "these kinds of badness are not reserved for the religious."

      To my mind there are two bad kinds of religious people: Those who are fucking up the world by expecting everyone to be like them, and those who are letting the world go to hell while assuming that they aren't. There are certainly people whose religion suggests that they go out and do good works but don't try to shit on people, and those people are not bad people. The rest of them are, and I'm not going to apologize for that.

      I want to say also that these kinds of badness are not reserved for the religious

      Yes, that's why I've been careful not to talk about "tolerance" -- there are things we should not be tolerant of, and things we should. We can fall off the horse on either side, but it's infamously difficult to find a satisfactory point of balance.

      With all this said, I do not believe you can stamp out religion by eliminating religious freedom

      Albania probably tried the hardest of any of the communist states, ruthlessly killing anybody who was suspected of religious belief. Since the collapse of communism there it became very religious again very quickly.

      so I'm not advocating the forcible elimination of the stuff. However, I think that an educated populace (and by educated I mean taught how to use their brain, not what to think with it) will eventually reject religion. So far, statistics have borne this out, as well as the converse; religion impedes education.

      Agree completely, but be careful: in a lot of the anti-religious talk I hear -- here on /. and elsewhere -- I hear echoes that are so similar to the communist persecution of the religious that it's creepy, and one aspect of that was seeing any dissent as either a sign of lack of education or of mental illness, leading to the religious (along with anybody else who dissented from state dogma) at risk of being sent for "re-education" or of being committed to a mental hospital. So a wholehearted "yes" to an education that teaches "how to use their brain, not what to think with it" provided the educators accept that if a product of that system doesn't think what they're "supposed" to then the education has failed in some way and needs to be continued more forcefully.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    91. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      Rather than "wants" it's perhaps fairer to say that he reluctantly considers that we will have to risk it because that's better than allowing religion (Islam specifically) to continue to exist. It's not that he wants most of humanity to be wiped out, it's just that he wants it more than the continued existence of Islam. I've quoted the actual words and page number elsewhere in the thread.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    92. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's propaganda put about by the believers to try to persuade people that atheism leads to totalitarian fascism.

      Sorry, but that is not accurate.

      "Gott mit Uns" was not an endorsement of God but was rather an endorsement of the romantic view of the pure German society, starting with the Romanic empire. Which the article you reference notes!

      NoBeleif.com makes an ignorant statement when it says that Hitler's beliefs are revealed in his speeches. We call that lying, or politics. Hitler was a master at using people and the church for his own ends. But he was not otherwise interested in the idea of a Biblical God, obviously, unless he could rewrite it that idea too.

      Furthermore, check your history books. Stalin was definitely in the business of killing off religion/the church, in fact saw it as an enemy of his ideology/rule. Only after he realized that he could bring back the Russian Orthodox church as a shell under state control did he bring it back to promote his utopia.

    93. Re:Imagine by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Americans will never understand cricket. That requires patience and subtlety. never going to happen in the instant gratification society.

    94. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In all fairness, have you heard Barbra Streisand sing?

    95. Re:Imagine by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      I disagree. An argument based on hard numbers and evidence of present actions is much more sound than a nebulous hand-waving about potential threats that don't yet exist (as you admit here) and one which you haven't even accounted for external factors (as you admit in the next point).

      And yet you don't provide an argument based on hard numbers and respond to my point that you haven't by saying I haven't provided hard numbers. The counter to someone pointing out you haven't supported your case with any actual numbers is not to point out that someone else hasn't either (especially when they weren't trying to make a case at all), but to provide those hard numbers. Something which you have singularly failed to do. You gave your opinion and ignored factors which would undermine that opinion. You compensate by pretending that I am claiming some statistical validity and saying that it's flawed. I'm not claiming proof. I'm demonstrating that (a) your opinion isn't supported by any numbers you have provided us and (b) you ignored important factors that would likely undermine your opinion. Without addressing these, there is no reason people should accept your statements about militant islam's prevalence.

      Okay go for it. I don't think you'll be able to. How do you put a hard number on violence or standard of living? Even among relatively similar societies it's very difficult to scientifically state that country A is "nicer" than country B.

      Again - the strawman that I was arguing which countries were what. Your complete ignoring of these very major factors renders your conclusions useless. You need to address them to be convincing.

      I can't give you a tight definition of terrorism. It's very subjective.

      Which is what I just said you couldn't. I'm glad you concede this. Now given that you can't define terrorism, tell me how you are able to talk authoritatively about how many people support terrorism when none of us know whether you are talking about attacks on US soil by foreign agents, attacks in foreign countries by militant forces against military targets (which the US government calls terrorism), whether we're including Palestine, Iraq, Israeli operations in Lebanon when they targeted power stations and scattered unexploded cluster bombs across large agricultural areas of the country, anti-government actions in Pakistan, Hindu-extremist strikes on Mosques in India, club-bombings in Bali. Massively different situations in far apart countries that many who support or disapprove of one set might feel very differently about another set. For example, the previously mentioned many Iraqi's that might support driving US troops out of their homeland but not condone actions such as 9/11. If you admit you can't define your terms, then admit that you can't support your argument. Else go back and define your terms. I don't think you'll be able to and still support your opinion.

      Your 1% of British muslims (quoted from a very biased British paper, but anyway) being "larger than millions and millions" is even worse statistics than your previous post. If 1% of British muslims is more than 4 million (the smallest possible interpretation of your excited "millions and millions"), then that makes 400 million British muslims in total. You do realise that the population of the UK is only about 70 million (less than a quarter the number of muslims you think live here) and that the population is about 91% White (Whites are very predominantly not muslim). Do you see now why we shouldn't trust your opinions without your backing them up with actual statistics (which don't exist because it's so difficult to account for other factors).

      But the important part is that 20% feel sympathetic to their motives. That's what I meant by rationalizing. Muslims have this peculiar way of being "against" specific terrorist acts, but sympathizing with the terrorists' motives.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    96. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

      Scroll down the page for specific incidents.

    97. Re:Imagine by manoftin · · Score: 1

      There are LOTS of fundamentalist Christians in the US and how much terrorism are they responsible for? Compare that to the number of fundamentalist Muslims also in the US who were arrested for terrorism plots.

      if red-neck prejudiced, racist, chauvinistic fundamentalist Christian Americans were in the minority it would be the exact opposite.

    98. Re:Imagine by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      "That's what I had in mind. Timothy McVeigh is a terrorist, but someone who kills one abortion doctor... that's kind of a stretch to me."

      WTF?? Killing abortion doctors to scare others IS terrorism, pure and simple.

    99. Re:Imagine by biggles69 · · Score: 1

      DIGITIG:
      "Militant atheist Sam Harris, according to "The End of Faith" apparently wants to see humanity exterminated"

      www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/

      'Apparently' implies you haven't read the book for yourself. If you really have read the book then you have clearly, wilfully and disingenuously misinterpreted what Sam wrote.

      DIGITIG:
      "...in "The End of Faith", Sam Harris insists that his own ethical position is based on assumptions about human nature that are so obvious that it "need not be validated by a controlled study" (p192) -- this in a chapter on "The Science of Good and Evil" (my emphasis), so the "science" on which Harris calls for our extermination -- yours and mine -- is a "science" that needn't bother with study when Harris already "knows" the answer."

      Here is the text from the last paragraph of p191 and all of p192.

      p191 to 192
      "Given this situation, we can see that one could desire to become more loving and compassionate for purely selfish reasons. This is a paradox, of sorts, because these attitudes undermine selfishness, by definition. They also inspire behaviour that tends to contribute to the happiness of other human beings. These states of mind not only feel good; they ramify social relationships that lead one to feel good with others, leading others to feel good with oneself. Hate, envy, spite, disgust, shame. These are not sources of happiness, personally or socially. Love and compassion are. Like so much that we know about ourselves, claims of this sort need not be validated by a controlled study. We can easily imagine evolutionary reasons for why positive social emotions make us feel good, while negative ones do not, but they would be beside the point. The point is that the disposition to take the happiness of others into account to be ethical seems to be a rational way to augment ones own happiness. As we will see in the next chapter, the linkage here becomes increasingly relevant the more rarefied ones happiness becomes. The connection between spirituality, the cultivation of happiness directly through precise refinements of attention and ethics is well attested. Certain attitudes and behaviours seem to be conducive to contemplative insight, while others are not. This is not a proposition to be merely believed. It is, rather, a hypothesis to be tested in the laboratory of ones life.

      A Loophole for Torquemada?
      Casting questions about ethics in terms of happiness and suffering can quickly lead us into unfamiliar territory. Consider the case of judicial torture. It would seem, at first glance, to be unambiguously evil. And yet, for the first time in living memory, reasonable men and women in our country have begun to reconsider it publicly. Interest in the subject appears to have been provoked by an interview given by Alan Dershowitz, an erstwhile champion of the rights of the innocent until proven guilty, on CBS's 60 Minutes. There, before millions who would have thought the concept of torture impossible to rehabilitate, Dershowitz laid out the paradigmatic ticking bomb case."

      DIGITIG:
      "
      >This is a lie! Please cite.

      Elsewhere in the thread I have backed this up with direct quotes (page 129 of the edition that I have). Sorry, but it's not a lie; you weren't reading carefully enough.

      >DIGITIG, YOU HAVE DELIBERATELY LIED TO THE READERS.

      Nope, I just read the book more carefully than you did.
      "

      p128 (129 in the digitig's)
      "...States and the Soviet Union to pass half a century perched, more or less stably, on the brink of Armageddon. What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them.

    100. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      DIGITIG: "Militant atheist Sam Harris, according to "The End of Faith" apparently wants to see humanity exterminated"

      www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2

      Thanks for the link. As I said, I was basing my interpretation on the book alone. Having now read that link -- well, I'm not sure anything has changed. It confirms that others have independently read the same passage and come to the same interpretation as me. Harris doesn't deny the accusation but "leaves the reader to judge" -- well, I'd already done that; he's added nothing new. The passages he highlights show that he considers it as a last resort, the passages I highlighted show that he considers it to be better than the alternative. That's all consistent. If he doesn't hold the view that he's publically responding to, why the hell doesn't he just say that he doesn't hold that view?

      So, are you a troll or are you just reading the book through fundamentalist coloured glasses?

      No and no. I'm fiercly anti-idealogue (and that includes anti-fundamentalist) and I -- in common with others, it seems -- read his words at face value as meaning what I interpret them to mean. By showing me that others read the passage in the same way as I do you have confirmed that my reading is not a completely eccentric one, and by pointing to his refusal to deny it you have deepened my concerns.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    101. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations, you are brainwashed.

    102. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I specifically was talking about major attacks and also said if you DO want to talk about lower-level stuff like individual murders, there's plenty of examples. They're just much harder to find and quantify.

      So again... do you know of ANY *major* attacks by fundamentalist Christian groups in the US? Did a Christian group concoct a plan to hijack a bus of gay activists and stone them all like it says to do in the Bible, then go around buying weapons and preparing for it?

      It's certainly possible that there are some instances. The only things even close that I can think of are cults like that one in Waco, Texas, but I'm not aware that they actually had plans to go attack some other group.

      So again, unless you can come up with like 100 *major* attacks, the proportions are very heavily in favor of Islam being the more dangerous religion. Therefore when people add "Oh and Christianity too!" to their complaints about Islamic terrorism, it's just PC bullshit.

    103. Re:Imagine by biggles69 · · Score: 1

      I've been away from the computer for a few hours and have only just seen your reply. I have also done a bit of reading about this Chris Hedges and have fully re-read Sam's reply to him.

      It seems that Chris is the only one who is making a public fuss about what Sam said and then being quoted, mostly blindly. Being the cynic I am I have to doubt if Chris's selective quoting of Sam is for anything but profit. He does of course have a book to sell called "I Don't Believe in Atheists". He is also religious so this probably colours his interpretation of the book a little.

      The passage involving a nuclear first strike against an Islamic regime that has nuclear weapons is a hypothetical. It explores the possibility and as Sam says himself the whole situation is "perfectly insane".

      I think the most important part of the passage is this:

      "I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world's population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher's stone, and unicorns. That it would be a horrible absurdity for so many of us to die for the sake of myth does not mean, however, that it could not happen. Indeed, given the immunity to all reasonable intrusions that faith enjoys in our discourse, a catastrophe of this sort seems increasingly likely."

      Sam goes on to say:

      "We must come to terms with the possibility that men who are every bit as zealous to die as the nineteen hijackers may one day get their hands on long-range nuclear weaponry. The Muslim world in particular must anticipate this possibility and find some way to prevent it. Given the steady proliferation of technology, it is safe to say that time is not on our side."

      The whole point he is making is that if it comes to this absurd situation it will be caused by the fact that a group of supposedly mature adults insist upon holding on to a belief in an imaginary friend. Human civilisation could be brought, close if not fully, to an end because of fantasy and fairytale. Sam puts the responsibility for stopping it right where it belongs. With Muslims.

      Sam does not in any way endorse or call for a first strike against Islam and has only done what a group of military planners might do in proposing a possible threat, possible response to it and outlining the possible repercussions of the response. He's done it to prove his point that religious faith is dangerous. At least that is how I read it.

      The Islamists who blow themselves up or fly aeroplanes into buildings do so on *faith*. Faith in an afterlife. Faith in the reward for martyrdom. Faith in their one true god. Faith in their absolute certainty that they are right.

      Sam is correct when he says that faith is the cause of all the problems with religion because it is by far the most powerful component of the whole religious experience. As revolting and absurd as the idea is, a large part of the world population may one day face the threat of extermination in a fireball courtesy of a bunch of irrational Islamists.

      That is something that concerns me.

    104. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rather they tried to create a society where there was no religious tolerance.

    105. Re:Imagine by Aerospike · · Score: 1

      If I copy it into my sig, am I allowed to correct the grammar first?

    106. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      And yet you don't provide an argument based on hard numbers

      That's why I posted a poll with hard numbers rather than hand-waving like you. Do you concede that the poll I posted contained hard numbers?

      Of course you then proceed with some childish nonsense about more Muslims in Britain than white people. It's funny that you belabored that point so much when the whole thing points at your own lack of ability in reading!

      Again - the strawman that I was arguing which countries were what. Your complete ignoring of these very major factors renders your conclusions useless. You need to address them to be convincing.

      I don't think you know what a straw man is. I didn't say that you DID argue which countries were what, and then refute your argument based on that false position (that would be a straw man argument). I said that you COULD NOT argue which countries were what. And indeed you didn't.

      Which is what I just said you couldn't. I'm glad you concede this. Now given that you can't define terrorism, tell me how [...]

      Nope, I said I can't give a tight definition. Do you concede that?

      That's a horrendous shifting of argument on your part. You've gone from "supporting" terrorism to "sympathising with the motives of terrorists" without any apparent shame

      First, sympathizing is a method of support.

      Second, the 2nd sentence you quoted -- "That's what I meant by rationalizing" -- ties the statistic to the same argument. Which brings me to your hard-hitting conclusion:

      You said "support terrorism" so stick to that argument or concede that you're wrong.

      Do you concede that I said "support, rationalize, and defend" in my post? Do you concede that perhaps you don't even know what this argument is about because you apparently missed around 2/3 of the important words?

    107. Re:Imagine by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1

      A number of your counter-points stem from failing to understand what I wrote. For example:

      Of course you then proceed with some childish nonsense about more Muslims in Britain than white people. It's funny that you belabored that point so much when the whole thing points at your own lack of ability in reading!

      You posted a link to a poll in the Telegraph (the UK government's most obedient paper, by the way) which said 1% of muslims in the UK "had a sympathy for the feelings and motives of the July 7 bombers". You then said this accounted for your "millions and millions" of muslims that supported terrorism. Dealing with the numbers first, if your 1% accounts for millions and millions (which has to be at least four million), then 100% of muslims in Britain must equal 4m multiplied by 100 which gives 400million muslims in Britain. Do you see how your hyperbole results in absurdities? There are only about 70 million in the UK in total. I'm sorry that you feel mathematics is "childish nonsense" but most here on Slashdot don't. So either use numbers that make sense or admit that your opinion isn't backed up by actual statistics.

      That's why I posted a poll with hard numbers rather than hand-waving like you. Do you concede that the poll I posted contained hard numbers?

      Again with a strawman - proposing that I need hard numbers to make a case and then shouting that I don't have them. I'm not making any case that requires backing up with statistics. I'm proving that you don't have a statistical basis for your opinion. Do I concede that your Googled up poll contains hard numbers? Well the Telegraph is a dreadfully biased paper which is far from above distorting statistics, but in any case, these "hard numbers" don't actually solve the problems in your argument whether they are trustworthy or not. Aside from all the problems of you taking reported opinions from a small number of people in one country about one incident where you decide "sympathy for the feelings" of the perpetrators and then extrapolating it to what over 1.5 billion people from different countries feel about many, many incidents in different countries, circumstances against different targets (military, civilian) and deciding that "sympathy" translates to "supporting terrorism"... Aside from all the problems with that use of "hard numbers", problems that are obvious to everyone but you who need them not to be for your argument to work, aside from all that... the maths, as I demonstrated at the beginning, would mean that there were 400million muslims in Britain. Nearly a third of the World's muslim population live in the UK? Now there's a shock!

      If you want more flaws in your mathematics, let me take you back to your very first post which provoked me to call you on your "statistics". You said that "Millions out of 1.5 billion or whatever is a small percentage, sure..." So millions. What, the four million you seem to think counts? Four million out of 1.5 billion is 0.26%. Have you got that? Less than a third of a percent! That's about a fifth of the prevalence of Schizophrenia in humans. It makes more sense to stereotype White people as schizophrenic than muslims supporting terrorism by your numbers. Are you really sure this is what you want to be proving with your "hard numbers". :D

      Nope, I said I can't give a tight definition. Do you concede that?

      With pleasure - I asked if you could give a tight definition of terrorism and you agreed you could not. Furthermore, you completely failed to give any useful definition at all. So again I'll ask you, now that you admit you can't tightly define terrorism, how you can state what people do and don't support. If you can't or wont distinguish between Hindu extremists blowing up a mosque in India to Palestinians shooting Israeli soldiers in Gaza to the attacks of 9/11, then why do you expect anyone to be convinced of your arguments? Go to Iraq,

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    108. Re:Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      John Lennon implies that it is in his song, Imagine.

      No he doesn't, not on its own. Read the song again. There are several conditions stated in that song for his utopia to be achieved.

      It's only a pop song anyway.

    109. Re:Imagine by digitig · · Score: 1

      It seems that Chris is the only one who is making a public fuss about what Sam said and then being quoted, mostly blindly.

      Well, I suppose this is public too. I'd never heard of Chris, so I'm certainly not quoting him blindly -- I'm not quoting him at all.

      Being the cynic I am I have to doubt if Chris's selective quoting of Sam is for anything but profit.

      I think his -- and my -- reading remains valid in the light of the complete passage. After all, the complete passage is how I came to my understanding of what he was saying.

      He does of course have a book to sell called "I Don't Believe in Atheists". He is also religious so this probably colours his interpretation of the book a little.

      I don't have a book to sell, and am agnostic, albeit a religious agnostic (ie, my religion is more hope than belief). I've read a lot on both sides of the "is religion evil" debate, and am concerned that both sides are ramping up hostility. I don't believe that either side has as certain a case as it thinks it has, and I think that the escalation on both sides is what is most likely to lead to violence that gets out of control.

      The passage involving a nuclear first strike against an Islamic regime that has nuclear weapons is a hypothetical. It explores the possibility and as Sam says himself the whole situation is "perfectly insane".

      Yes, perfectly insane, but "we may have no choice" but be "perfectly insane"? No, actually, we would always have a choice (unless he's digressed into the free will debate). All "we have no choice" ever means is "I prefer this to the alternative".

      I think the most important part of the passage is this:

      "I have just described a plausible scenario in which much of the world's population could be annihilated on account of religious ideas that belong on the same shelf with Batman, the philosopher's stone, and unicorns. That it would be a horrible absurdity for so many of us to die for the sake of myth does not mean, however, that it could not happen.

      I agree that it's the most important passage, but apparently for a different reason to you. You see, Islamic states getting long-range nuclear capability doesn't make us nuke them, any more than North Korea getting long-range nuclear capability nuclear capability makes us nuke them. Launching a first strike and saying "It's therir fault for developing the same sort of capabilities as we have and for having different beliefs" is moral nonsense. It wouldn't be their fault at all, it would be the fault of the aggressor who launched the first strike. And incidentally, if policy makers started talking seriously about a first strike on any Islamic nation with long-range nuclear capability, what would the likely response of a state with such a capability be? "Better launch our attack before they find out". Nothing religious about that, just the standard cold-war thinking that Harris denies is possible.

      The whole point he is making is that if it comes to this absurd situation it will be caused by the fact that a group of supposedly mature adults insist upon holding on to a belief in an imaginary friend. Human civilisation could be brought, close if not fully, to an end because of fantasy and fairytale.

      Like a mugger who says that he had to kill his victim because the victim might have had a gun, so it's the victim's fault. Sure.

      Sam does not in any way endorse or call for a first strike against Islam

      He says we "may have no choice", which means that he says it may be preferable to the alternative. That's endorsement.

      He's done it to prove his point that religious faith is dangerous.

      Or his response to religious faith is dangerous. Do you not see that there are two sides to this?

      Sam is correct when he says that faith is the cause of

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    110. Re:Imagine by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      Sure. Belief in something that cannot be proven. This applies both to "There is a God" and "There is no God".

    111. Re:Imagine by nametaken · · Score: 1

      His point is the same, regardless of the belt buckle.

    112. Re:Imagine by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Dealing with the numbers first, if your 1% accounts for millions and millions

      Do you seriously still not understand? When I said "that 1% is for blah blah" I meant literally the 1%. 1% of Muslims is millions and millions of Muslims. I'm sorry this is so hard for you to grasp, after repeated efforts at explaining it.

      Again with a strawman - proposing that I need hard numbers to make a case and then shouting that I don't have them.

      No, again it's not a strawman. YOU said I didn't provide hard numbers, but I did. I never said YOU need hard numbers.

      What, the four million you seem to think counts? Four million out of 1.5 billion is 0.26%. Have you got that? Less than a third of a percent! That's about a fifth of the prevalence of Schizophrenia in humans. It makes more sense to stereotype White people as schizophrenic than muslims supporting terrorism by your numbers. Are you really sure this is what you want to be proving with your "hard numbers". :D

      Yes that's exactly what I want to prove. And yes, white people do tend to suffer from certain diseases more. Saying white people are prone to Alzheimer's, for instance, is exactly right, as is saying Muslims are prone to supporting terrorism -- because they do it significantly more than other groups. (I'm sure you're right about schizophrenia, I'm just more familiar with the Alzheimer's numbers.) Now I never said all Muslims are terrorists or anything like that, and saying that would be as dumb as saying all whites are schizophrenic.

      If 0.26% of Christians converged on a Muslim country and started committing acts of terrorism with the stated intention of forcing the population to adopt Christianity... would you honestly say "This isn't a Christian problem at all because it's less than 1/3 of a percent?"

      (I'm not saying that's what Muslims are doing but I'm illustrating that your arguing based on the percentage of the whole is stupid. The fact is 1/3 of a percent of a huge population is a huge problem because in absolute terms that's a large number. It's a *serious* problem when that group is actively interfering with other groups rather than having a self-contained problem like schizophrenia.)

      So again I'll ask you, now that you admit you can't tightly define terrorism, how you can state what people do and don't support.

      Oh, well it's very simple. I use a loose definition. I thought I mentioned that. Everybody has their own subjective view of what is and isn't terrorism, and I do too. My view mostly coincides with what most other Westerners think, and probably most non-Westerners as well.

      If you can't or wont distinguish between Hindu extremists blowing up a mosque in India

      Terrorism.

      to Palestinians shooting Israeli soldiers in Gaza

      Not terrorism.

      to the attacks of 9/11

      Terrorism.

      then why do you expect anyone to be convinced of your arguments?

      Because like I said most people have a loose definition that agrees with other people's loose definitions most of the time for most incidents. There are corner cases but they are rare. There are people who hold vastly different views but they're rare as well.

  4. How to get free government PR for your religion by XavierItzmann · · Score: 5, Insightful
    So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of Buddhism?

    After all, don't we want young Buddhists to be much less likely to be directed to extremist material online?

    Oh, sorry, forgot the UK government only sponsors your religion when you are violent. If you are peaceful, you are on your own. Do your own damn PR!

    "it wants to 'flood the internet' with 'positive' interpretations of Islam and plans to train government-approved groups in search engine optimization techniques"

    --
    The next pasture is always greener
    1. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by Thanshin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dear UK government.

      As has been proved over and over, we gamers are violent.

      Our Google-fu is mighty, but we don't have apropiate sites of reunion. The sensible action would be to pay for the construction of gaming churches where gamers can go to get involved in a friendly community and thus avoid further killing sprees.

      Yours dearly, F4T4L M4SS4KRE.

    2. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of NuLabour.
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of ID cards
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of more CCTV cameras
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of bonuses for rich crooks running banks
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of more taxes to improve things (their bank accounts)
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of 3 entire towns wiped out to build Heathrow's 3rd runway
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of Phorm style monitoring of all communications
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of Big Brother, for their gain and their rich friends gain, at our expense.
      etc... etc.. etc...

      The people in power are put there by us and work for us. They are not there to manipulate us, yet that is what they are doing relentlessly. Yet still, so many people fail to see the danger in not defending against these corrupt people in power gaining ever more power over us all. The people in power are building their own Plutocracy (ruled by the rich), which since the finacial collapse, is looking ever more like a Kleptocracy (ruled by thieves). These power seekers in power don't want a democracy, they want to be the people in power to dictate to us all for their own gain at our expense, literally.

    3. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The UK has turned into a bunch of cowards afraid to condemn bad behavior, because doing so to a person outside your own culture is considered racist. As a result, immigrants are taught they can get away with anything and that they can take their brutal tribal habits with them instead of growing up.

      Campaigns like these are insane attempts to hide from reality.

    4. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by sy5t3m · · Score: 1

      As a result, immigrants are taught they can get away with anything and that they can take their brutal tribal habits with them instead of growing up.

      Yep, locking them up (even children) in detention centers with worse conditions than prisons is too soft an option. Perhaps we should try killing them all instead...oh, wait, we already are. Link

    5. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      The UK has turned into a bunch of cowards afraid to condemn bad behavior, because doing so to a person outside your own culture is considered racist.

      Precisely! And let's all condemn the Germans because they're Nazis! Now that I got the insta-Godwin out of the way, some more examples: should we judge all Catholics or Anglican Protestants based on the war in Ireland? Should we judge all Basques based on ETA's activities? I'm sure I could find a few more examples of ideological terrorism if I wanted to. The "real" reality, as opposed to the one you seem to believe is being hidden from us, is that things aren't black and white, "us" versus "them". The US seems to thrive on polarizing the populace that way: West vs East, Capitalists vs Commies, White vs Black. Rallying against a common hyper-villainous enemy, and sod all rationality. Islam seems to be the last excuse to keep a state of conflict, and the UK at least seems to be trying to revert some of that damage.

      If you'd rather discuss in pragmatic terms, rather than an ideological approach, think of this: By taking a stance of "us versus them", you're making that choice for "them" as well, rather than leaving the option for peace open.

    6. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Why kill them or lock them up? What happened to deportation? If Muslims are patrolling their neighborhoods enforcing sharia so none of their children get too corrupted by the West, that's a cultural problem that can't be solved by prison OR execution.

    7. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say the goverment should be fair and balanced on this matter. They should translate all the extremist material in King George's English with the tax payers money. No, seriously they should enable the good people of the monarchy to see the obvious. Total control with total transparency, the great nu'fascist principle through which we, the loyal subjects of England, shall prevail! No, seriously translate the shit already, I'm now even more curious to read about the messages of Al Qaeda and make my own mind about the justifiability of the Caliphate and the war for Lebensraum.

    8. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Precisely! And let's all condemn the Germans because they're Nazis!

      This is rather insightful. I think a major problem with the English right now is that they're *terrified* of being seen as Nazis. If they deal with Islam too harshly, that'll be the very first whining from the so-called liberal moderate Muslims.

      should we judge all Catholics or Anglican Protestants based on the war in Ireland?

      If Christians aren't ashamed of their religion being used for that, and if they aren't taking their own steps to quash it, then they should be shamed, ridiculed, harassed, and so forth, until they do. What was your point?

      By taking a stance of "us versus them", you're making that choice for "them" as well, rather than leaving the option for peace open.

      Care to prove that Muslims haven't already made that distinction as well? Hmm, all those speeches about the ummah and sharia must be a hallucination. And by your own argument, it's therefore impossible NOT to respond with an "us versus them" view as well. Or, if you're suggesting that we can somehow transcend your maxim and respond peaceably, then why can't they do that as well?

    9. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      If Christians aren't ashamed of their religion being used for that, and if they aren't taking their own steps to quash it, then they should be shamed, ridiculed, harassed, and so forth, until they do. What was your point?

      I think it's pretty clear that neither catholics nor protestants approved of the irish wars. When such a feud lasts for as long as that one did, it eventually becomes routine enough that you can't be arsed to be vocally against it.

      On a more recent event, the Pope spoke out against condoms, saying they only made things worse. News on the subject piled up. Most catholics I know spoke out against that in friendly discussions on the matter, and most prominent bishops at least here in Portugal spoke out against it in public as well. Hell, when Benedict was elected, Desmond Tutu commented to the effect of "the church won't move forwards for years to come". Of course, my moderate catholic friends don't really get the same media attention as the Pope, and even the more moderate bishops that called bullshit on the Pope didn't really get much attention either, because moderate opinions don't sell all that well.

      Care to prove that Muslims haven't already made that distinction as well?

      Whoever made those speeches speaks for the whole of the muslims as much as the pope speaks for all catholics. I guess I passed my opinion in a bit too absolute a tone (heh, go figure), but, even if not impossible per se, it does make things a lot harder.

    10. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I think it's pretty clear that neither catholics nor protestants approved of the irish wars. When such a feud lasts for as long as that one did, it eventually becomes routine enough that you can't be arsed to be vocally against it.

      You're right, but the problem is Muslims have plenty of energy to get riled up about *other* old issues. Palestine anyone? Insults against the Great Prophet Muhammed, like, say, cartoons of him?

      If moderate Muslims were just quiet people who minded their own business and didn't get riled up about *anything*, there wouldn't be a problem. But when they make the effort to have hundreds of thousands of protesters around the world to burn flags and crap about some cartoons, then it's fair to expect some effort on other serious issues like terrorism. It's the disparity in effort that speaks volumes, not simply the lack of effort. I think that's the real issue here, and why it's fair to criticize them.

      Seriously, when those cartoons came out, you should have SEEN the crap in newspapers here (the US). I keep up with the student papers from my college and there were letters for WEEKS about "Oh this was sooo hurtful to Muslims! I broke down in tears when I heard about this! People just don't understand how much we love the prophet!" and all kinds of garbage.

      You know how many letters there were saying "I'm so ashamed, I feel so bad, I hope this never happens again" when a Muslim drove his SUV through the campus hitting people, then admitting in court he did it to avenge Muslim deaths in Iraq? Umm... none! (Story: http://www.dailytarheel.com/2.1383/pit-driver-held-on-5-5-million-bond-in-raleigh-1.172173) Note that the UNC Muslim Student Association's primary role was to educate others to ensure that there was no backlash against the Muslim community! How disgustingly self-serving can you get.

    11. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Oh, sorry, forgot the UK government only sponsors your religion when you are violent. If you are peaceful, you are on your own. Do your own damn PR!

      Alternatively: happy Buddhists are already quite adept at manipulating Google, causing there to be no violent Buddhism, so they don't need government help!

    12. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're part of the problem, dumbass. I posted a completely defensible opinion and you started ranting about "us versus them"-mentalities.

      Here's an accurate analogy based on your Nazis:

      -Those Nazis are pretty big assholes.
      -Hey, you can't say that. It's their culture.
      -Come on, they're treating the Jews like shit.
      -Not ALL Germans are doing that!
      -I know, but a lot of them are. We need to do som...
      -What are you, a racist? You're not German, you can't judge them!
      -I'm sorry, my bad. I'll be quiet now.

      I'm the one who wants to treat people as individuals. YOU seem to want to treat them as one big group that we either accept or destroy.

    13. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      Note that the UNC Muslim Student Association's primary role was to educate others to ensure that there was no backlash against the Muslim community! How disgustingly self-serving can you get.

      I don't get it. What should they have done? Say "yeah, right on! He should've done that sooner?" Why is distancing themselves from an act of violence "self serving"?

    14. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of NuLabour.
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of ID cards
      So, when will a 200-strong unit UK government office flood the internet with 'positive' interpretations of Phorm style monitoring of all communications

      I've snipped out a few of your rhetorical questions, to mention that these have essentially already happened.

      Labour (and the Tories as well) have been caught both editing their own wiki articles and vandalising those of other MPs.

      A forum was set up by the government specifically for 18-25s to discuss the benefits of ID cards. When every discussion came out vehemently opposed, some of the site moderators started adding favourable comments and editing other people's posts. When the "consultation" period came to an end, the site completely disappeared. No report published so far references this forum, but several have claimed support from the young public for ID cards.

      The 200-strong government department flooding the internet in favour of spying on our internet use is strangely enough the BBC. Take a look through their news website archives for references to Phorm, and you'll find nicely written pieces, all of which defend Phorm from people like slashdot readers. Phorm eyes launch after hard year

    15. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The self-serving part is to use the press release as publicity to say "Everybody should educate themselves about Islam to understand how peaceful we are and why this wasn't related to Islam."

      The distancing part isn't self-serving but it is even worse, in my opinion. It serves to obfuscate the real issues. You see, if every Muslim who commits terrorist acts is not actually a Muslim and has no connection to other Muslims, then there's no problem with Islam right? It's just a string of random incidents that nobody can do anything about. Except, you know, to educate yourself about Islam so that you don't piss off a non-Muslim-who-happens-to-call-himself-Muslim who might then attack you.

      Why didn't the MSA say something like, "We need to redouble our efforts to educate *Muslims* to properly integrate into a multicultural society so that we can live together in peace" or something like that? Is that really too much to ask for from the public representatives of Muslims on campus?

    16. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      The self-serving part is to use the press release as publicity to say "Everybody should educate themselves about Islam to understand how peaceful we are and why this wasn't related to Islam."

      Well, I couldn't find any quote to that effect in the article you linked, so forgive me if I didn't dig further than your own evidence looking for corroboration :).

      You see, if every Muslim who commits terrorist acts is not actually a Muslim and has no connection to other Muslims, then there's no problem with Islam right? It's just a string of random incidents that nobody can do anything about. Except, you know, to educate yourself about Islam so that you don't piss off a non-Muslim-who-happens-to-call-himself-Muslim who might then attack you.

      Except they didn't say "he's not actually Muslim", they said he's not part of the MSA (which might or might not be true, but it's still a different point altogether), and that the actions of one individual shouldn't be taken as a reflection of what the muslim community stands for -- which is especially true when that same individual supposedly didn't even integrate the community around the MSA.

      Why didn't the MSA say something like, "We need to redouble our efforts to educate *Muslims* to properly integrate into a multicultural society so that we can live together in peace" or something like that? Is that really too much to ask for from the public representatives of Muslims on campus?

      Considering this particular guy wasn't even part of their community, do you have a suggestion on how they should do that? Never mind the part where if they did try to "educate" people, this conversation would be about how they "brainwash their own" or some other bullcrap to that effect.

    17. Re:How to get free government PR for your religion by stdarg · · Score: 1

      My intent wasn't to start a thread researching the event. It was just an example I had. If you don't believe me, though, here are some things you can read. (It was really hard to dig these articles up because the UNC newspaper doesn't have a browseable archive.)

      http://www.dailytarheel.com/2.1383/muslim-students-forced-to-respond-1.164639

      This is an interview with the head of the UNC MSA.

      "MSA members decided that it was most important to take an educational route and discuss the difficult issues the incident raised, Khan said.
      Instead of straining relations between Muslims and non-Muslims on campus, the attack spurred a dialogue about Islam among the entire UNC community, Khan said.
      Numerous forums and vigils held after the attack allowed students to discuss the religion.
      "We got a chance to stand up and say, 'He's not a representation of Islam,'" Khan said. "It opened up avenues for us to kind of branch out and talk to other people."
      Khan and other Muslim students said the response of both the organization and non-Muslim students showed the maturity of the overall UNC community."

      (That article is from a year after the attacks and it's about his recollection of the events.)

      http://www.dailytarheel.com/2.1384/lone-wolf-attack-1.172135

      "Today there will be a "Rally for Freedom" in the Pit from 11 a.m. until 1 p.m. Several speakers will be addressing the assembled students at noon to denounce Taheri-azar's crimes.
      As of press time, groups still were signing on to co-sponsor the event.
      Students should be sure to remember to denounce only the surprise attacks on unsuspecting civilians. The perpetrators of such crimes are not the chosen representatives of any of their religions."

      Here's news about the same rally:

      http://www.dailytarheel.com/2.1384/simply-self-divided-1.172083

      "A rally that was held in the Pit on Monday denouncing Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar as a terrorist sparked tense discussion between flag-waving rally attendees and folks who were uncomfortable with labeling Taheri-azar's actions as terrorism."

      Yep, the MSA was very upset when some people suggested a link to Islam. They help hold a rally condemning the pit attacks, but their agenda the whole time was to get out front with the message that this has nothing to do with Islam.

      Anyway hopefully that's enough to convince you at least partially that I'm not pulling all of this out of my ass. I can't find the part where the MSA said they didn't think he's Muslim. Basically they interviewed all these people in the MSA and they were like, "No he wasn't very religious... he never prayed or came to meetings or anything..." and then later it turned out he was a member so they retracted that.

      If you still don't believe me then I'll give up now.

  5. Once again I apologise by Kupfernigk · · Score: 3, Informative

    For the British Government. I find myself again having to explain to non-UK readers that we do not elect the Prime Minister, and owing to our elective dictatorship system, the present Prime Minister has never, in fact, been voted for by anybody outside the Scottish province of Fife. The Home Office is run by someone, Jacqui Smith, who makes Condoleeza Rice look like the greatest liberal brain on the planet (and charges the taxpayer $3000 a month for her sleeping in her sister's spare bedroom). Unfortunately, just like you with GWB, we can do nothing about it until next year. Until late 2010 then, be ready for a stream of "how stupid can the British Government get?" stories.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Once again I apologise by kestasjk · · Score: 1

      This wouldn't have happened under Cameron's government.... right? The only thing that clown can find to complain about are "scandalous" e-mails and demand resignations and apologies

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    2. Re:Once again I apologise by jrothwell97 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All the more reason to vote Lib Dem at the next election, then.

      --
      Those using pirated Tinysoft signatures(TM) are a real threat to society and should all be thrown in jail.
    3. Re:Once again I apologise by mrphoton · · Score: 2, Informative

      This relay irritates me. Whenever somebody criticises Gordon and his dreadful Stalinist government, somebody always pipes up an says well the conservatives are no different and there is nothing we can do. Well for a start if you vote Conservative we will not get the dreadful ID cards: http://www.conservatives.com/Campaigns/ID_Cards_Labours_Bad_IDea.aspx

    4. Re:Once again I apologise by abigsmurf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think you grasp what a dictator is, nor how our electoral system works.

      Our country is run by the party, not by the prime minister. The Prime Minister is just the appointed representative/head of the party. Don't like the decisions a part makes? Don't vote for them. If the party doesn't like what the prime Minister does, they do a vote of no confidence or vote against his law changes. The PM only has as much power as the party allows.

    5. Re:Once again I apologise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    6. Re:Once again I apologise by blackest_k · · Score: 3, Informative

      I can't see how it will stop in 2010 regardless of who is in power, the only difference will be which asshat is in power. Obviously the political parties will offer us all something that we like the sound of and try to bury the unpopular policies. So a new government comes in or gets restored they then make some show of implementing or delaying implementing the popular policies that got them to power and at the same time doing things we distinctly dislike.

      While you can argue that perhaps that it seems reasonable for a general election to be called on change of prime minister, its not backed up in practice

      http://tutor2u.net/blog/index.php/politics/comments/unelected-prime-ministers-the-political-and-constitutional-importance/

      "'When a party in government replaces its leader, there is no need for the new prime minister to call an early general election. Macmillan waited 2¾ years, and Callaghan three years until he was forced to hold one by a Commons vote of no confidence. Douglas Home waited a year, and John Major 15 months, but they were near the five-year limit before an election has to be called. Eden called an election almost immediately after taking office, but the parliament was more than 3½ years old. After succeeding the dying Bonar Law in May 1923, Baldwin went to the polls within six months on the issue of tariff reform, only a year into the Parliament, but lost - an unhappy precedent.' "

      So its a bit of a mixed bag theres been a few unelected prime ministers from both sides. John Major was the last Conservative Prime minister to do so.
      If Gordon Brown wasn't Prime Minister, it would probably still be Tony Blair but definitely not David Cameron till at least 2010.

       

    7. Re:Once again I apologise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If you could GUARANTEE to me that the Tories would actually follow through on this and the 30 other Labour fuck-ups that they've promised to undo (databases, cctv etc.) then i might, just might consider voting for 4 years of Cameron.

      But you can't, can you? You can't promise that he won't be just the same as the previous Tory dogs and be a big business promoting dick who uses Scotland as a guinea pig for 'classist' taxes.

      Even worse, Cameron actually strikes me as being cut from the same cloth as Blair! A cheeky young upstart taking the party in a different direction to win the election, then turning round and biting our collective asses once he's in power.

      As it is, I'll be voting Lib Dems. Not because they stand for anything worth it, but because it'll be the last refuge for ex-labour voters with half a brain and they have a decent chance of getting enough votes to force the Tories into a coalition government. Followed by a vote to the dreaded SNP two years later so we can leave the fucked up British system behind (never used to support independence, but 12 years of Blair/Brown and the prospect of 4 years of Cameron is enough to persuade even the most resolute of us).

    8. Re:Once again I apologise by Wymsey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, so the use of the word 'dictator' is emotive and not quite appropriate in England - yet. But to say that we are run by the (Labour) party is just not true. On the whole the country is, if at all, run from Number Ten impeded or encouraged by the civil service. The elected MPs count for very little and the party count for naught - except at election time.

    9. Re:Once again I apologise by swarsron · · Score: 1

      Until late 2010 then, be ready for a stream of "how stupid can the British Government get?" stories.

      You mean something like getting out of a car while holing secret documents in plain view to be photographed?

    10. Re:Once again I apologise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except that's not quite how it works in practice.

      In practice when people disagree with the party and don't keep it a secret they are removed. The cabinet and other important positions are picked by the PM and are filled with Loyalists.

      I know its a crazy idea to have appropriately skilled, educated and experienced ministers in positions as opposed to the PM's best mates and biggest yes men - but if the party was really in charge, wouldn't it be dictating the positions? Oh wait, the party is in charge, and the PM is in charge of the party, ergo...

    11. Re:Once again I apologise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This wouldn't have happened under Cameron's government.... right? The only thing that clown can find to complain about are "scandalous" e-mails and demand resignations and apologies

      Here's a link about "scandalous" e-mails for Slashdot readers to peruse if they're so inclined.

      Apparently "scandalous" means "getting caught sending emails about using false allegations to damage the reputations of political opponents."

    12. Re:Once again I apologise by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      And you, apparently, have not read a politics textbook. Elective dictatorship is a term you will find on the first page about the UK political system in most textbooks. It refers to the lack of separation between the executive and the legislature, meaning that the party with the majority in the legislature has complete control of the government. This is in contrast with systems where the executive (for example, the office of the president in the USA) is elected independently, requiring agreement between both branches for policies to be put into effect. The wikipedia page is a bit light on details, but gives a reasonable introduction to the concept.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    13. Re:Once again I apologise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry. I apologize to the British people for the USA having a nigger in the White House.

    14. Re:Once again I apologise by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      Except we don't have that situation at the moment. Labour only have a very slim lead, it's very hard for them to get proposals passed, not to mention the elephant in the room at Westminster is that Labour will lose the next election badly with their current level of popularity.

      It's also not a form of government but a term that criticises a government with a strong majority. It's a term coined by a single person in a single paper that spread because people like being able to refer to governments as dictatorships.

      The term elective dictatorship could easily be considered an oxymoron anyway. How can you argue it's a dictatorship when it consists of hundreds of democratically elected MPs who could easily be voted out in a few years time?

    15. Re:Once again I apologise by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Don't like the decisions a part makes? Don't vote for them.

      That would work, if we had a decent electoral system. Unfortunately, we don't.

  6. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The headline seems to put a negative spin on this, but as government activities go it seems pretty benign. Better than beating people up or killing them. We need to find ways to encourage governments to channel more of their energies into non-destructive activities like this.

    1. Re:Good by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0, Troll

      Better than beating people up or killing them.

      Please note that the British government also consists of people, thus at least at times makes beating people up or killing them good sense.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still sneaky and patronizing.

      Why resort to "gaming", when truth, respect, food, education and such (and less bombing and torturing of innocent poor brown people) would work wonders?

    3. Re:Good by tg123 · · Score: 1

      It's still sneaky and patronizing.......................

      while Militant Islam is only fucking scary and all they want to do is kill infidels.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

      even scarier is we the West helped them so that they would take on the Soviets. What goes around comes around ....

    4. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      even scarier is we the West helped them so that they would take on the Soviets. What goes around comes around ....

      Not really. Islamic Terrorism has been around for quite a while and while we did help with the resistance against the Soviet Union, that help was directed to people acting towards an invading army not a civilian population.

      Terrorism sort of requires an act of terror. While there probably isn't and hard set definition that spans the globe, a military member serving in a country they recently invaded would be expecting the acts and it probably wouldn't be considered acts of terror.

      Now, I would admit that some fighting the good fight turned and became terrorist later in life, but considering our help at a different time the same as helping a terrorist is about as inane as claiming the University of Iowa trained and helped terrorist because some grad student learned enough about chemistry to construct a bomb and rocket fuel before going jihad in some terrorist group.

    5. Re:Good by stdarg · · Score: 1

      while we did help with the resistance against the Soviet Union, that help was directed to people acting towards an invading army not a civilian population.

      I used to think that, but from what I've read since then Afghanistan was inviting the Russians to come in and help them. They were already a communist leaning government and they were trying to suppress a (shock) Islamic uprising. We helped that uprising. Well at least people are seeing that communism is not necessarily the worst ideology out there. We can hope that in time that knowledge seeps into the defense department and the state department -- who STILL have a fucking love affair with Pakistan and ignore every betrayal they engage in. It's disgraceful.

    6. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Again, not really.

      The uprising was over the illegitimacy of Mohammed Daoud Khan who over took his cousin's reign of power in 1973 from a military coup. Mohammed Daoud Khan created Republic of Afghanistan and ran it supposedly democratically. In 1975 or so, the Jamiat Islami (a militant muslim group) attempted to take over the government but they were shot down quickly. After that, the communist group People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan ended up with power and started imposing a bunch of Soviet style reforms. This pissed the population off and they revolted again which is pretty much what got the Russians involved in 1979.

      Anyways, while the groups may have shared the muslim religion, they didn't revolt because of it. They revolted because the so called democratic government was imposing it's will on the people against the consent of the people. Why they didn't consent is meaningless at this point, the fact that government change was rejected is the important point. And the stuff the government did would have a lot of people looking to replace it if it happened anywhere else. It's not just about islam, that was ancillary to it. That is what got the Soviets involves, and it's what got the US involved.

    7. Re:Good by XchristX · · Score: 1

      Jamiat Islami

      BTW are these guys still around? I read somewhere that they split up. Is the larger Islamofascist Jamaat-e-Islami in Pakistan supporting them with expat funds? I haven't been following Afghanistan much these last few months (too busy with Pakistan, where the Taliban seem to have moved and set up shop), but I do remember that the Afghan-Tajik tailor in my old neighbourhood loved to diss the Jamiat-Islami some years back. They kidnapped his son and forcibly recruited him into their rural death squads (killing people they thought were Soviet Collaborators etc.).

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    8. Re:Good by stdarg · · Score: 1

      The uprising was over the illegitimacy of Mohammed Daoud Khan who over took his cousin's reign of power in 1973 from a military coup.

      First of all, the uprising was over the Marxist party that took control *from* Daoud, not over Daoud himself.

      Second, I don't know what you're trying to say here. The Soviets had good relationships with all of the Afghan leaders for like 50 years before that revolution, and not just the Marxist ones. The Soviets really didn't care, as long as whoever was in charge understood that the Soviets were the major power in the region. The reason the Soviets got involved in this uprising (and ignored previous uprisings) was that the mujahideen (the fighters actually engaged in the uprising) were heavily under the influence of Pakistan, and Pakistan was under the influence of the US.

      And the Taliban, who eventually took control after the Soviets left, were created *entirely* in Pakistan. The stuff the Taliban did was definitely directed at ordinary civilians and not an invading army. If you talk to Afghans today, you'll find that they generally loathe Pakistan for its role in the war and for the creation of the Taliban. They would have been much, much happier if the Soviets had successfully intervened and the resistance had died down without support from foreign powers.

      In general, let's not forget the order of events here. First Pakistan and the US funded radical Islamic fighters to destabilize the Marxist government. Only after that did the Soviets intervene. And the key point here is that there's plenty of evidence that if there hadn't been this interference from foreign powers, the Soviets wouldn't have interfered either -- they supported plenty of Islamic regimes before that revolution.

      Anyways, while the groups may have shared the muslim religion, they didn't revolt because of it. They revolted because the so called democratic government was imposing it's will on the people against the consent of the people.

      They revolted because the pro-communist government was implementing reforms against fundamentalist Islam, so the religion *definitely* had something to do with it. Islam was the entire reason for the revolt, so I don't know where you're going with this. Do you know what "mujahideen" means? It means "people engaged in jihad" according to wikipedia.

      I find it a bit naive to believe Islamist propaganda that they're doing it for the people and not for their own desire to enforce a specific type of Islam on everybody. Do you also believe that the Taliban's goal in Pakistan right now is to simply cleanse the government of corruption?

    9. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      First of all, the uprising was over the Marxist party that took control *from* Daoud, not over Daoud himself.

      That was what I was trying to represent about the so called democracy. Anyways, even if I didn't make it clear, the point is still the same. The country was politically unstable, passes a shit ton of laws that the populace didn't like, and once again, someone was trying to put in a new government. That's when the soviets kicked in.

      Second, I don't know what you're trying to say here. The Soviets had good relationships with all of the Afghan leaders for like 50 years before that revolution, and not just the Marxist ones. The Soviets really didn't care, as long as whoever was in charge understood that the Soviets were the major power in the region. The reason the Soviets got involved in this uprising (and ignored previous uprisings) was that the mujahideen (the fighters actually engaged in the uprising) were heavily under the influence of Pakistan, and Pakistan was under the influence of the US.

      The relations with Russia is sort of pointless at this point. Russia didn't go in attempting to take it over. The PDRA asked the soviet union for help in much the same ways south Vietnam asked the french then the Americans for help in staying in power. In fact, it was almost a reverse Vietnam where they wanted to stay communist despite the people rejecting their laws. The PDRA was fractured and I don't remember off the top of my head if they retained power until the Russians withdrew or not. They were gone when the Russians left though which is what created the warlord situation that allowed the Taliban to take over the country (from the northern aliance).

      Anyways, Russia's involvement originally was still "in good relations". They were attemping to help the government in power keep that power as the people were rejecting the soviet style communist reforms. That is what got America interested in it.

      And the Taliban, who eventually took control after the Soviets left, were created *entirely* in Pakistan. The stuff the Taliban did was definitely directed at ordinary civilians and not an invading army. If you talk to Afghans today, you'll find that they generally loathe Pakistan for its role in the war and for the creation of the Taliban. They would have been much, much happier if the Soviets had successfully intervened and the resistance had died down without support from foreign powers.

      Well, I don't entirely disagree with that. Except that it should be noted that the taliban wasn't even heard of until it came around almost a decade after the Russians left (1993 or 1996).

      The afghans may have been happier with soviet rule then with the Taliban but it was obvious from the resistance that they were happier with the old rules and self rule then the soviet communism. There are three segment groups we are dealing with here, A (their original customs and laws), B (the communist laws and soviet backing) and C (the end result of the Taliban rule). Just because B is larger then C doesn't mean either if greater then A. We got involved because Russia and the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan attempted to impose B over A to the objections of the citizens living in the region. To suggest that B is better because it was better then C ignores the entirety of A which doesn't truly represent the situation.

      In other words, bad outcome B being better then bad outcome C doesn't mean a better outcome wasn't availible and being pursued.

      In general, let's not forget the order of events here. First Pakistan and the US funded radical Islamic fighters to destabilize the Marxist government. Only after that did the Soviets intervene. And the key point here is that there's plenty of evidence that if there hadn't been this interference from foreign powers, the Soviets wouldn't have interfered either -- they supported plenty of Islamic r

    10. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I couldn't say for sure if they are still around or not. My understanding was that the group was outlawed back in 1975. A member of the Jamiat Islami (the political party when Afghanistan was pretending to be a democracy) formed the group mujahideen which broke off into several alliances. It was my understanding that the Jamiat Islami was gone at that time. The US mainly supported what became the northern alliance and I'm pretty sure that the Taliban got rid of them.

      The interesting thing is that the Taliban came into power basically because they were better at fighting in the area then the rest of the forces. After Russia pulled out, the region was dominated mostly by war lords with the northern alliance being in control of most of the country. Anyways, trade between the cities and even going from borders to inland destinations was constantly under attack and all of the war lords were pretty much powerless to do anything about it. One day around 1993 or 1996, a group came around which started protecting the trade shipments with almost perfect success and this group took the name "taliban". The problem with the Taliban was that if you weren't religious enough, you weren't good enough. If anything happened with the Jamiat Islami, I would say they were absorbed into the taliban or killed off as infidels when the Taliban took power. The Taliban "took care" of the alliances factions and anyone who would pose a risk to them before imposing strict (re)forms of their versions of Sharia law and Islamic ways on the general public.

      Something else that was/is interesting is that Iran, with their Islamic ties and all, had problems with the taliban and how it was operating to the point that they initially invaded with allied troops when the Afghanistan war started after 9/11. One of the reasons they are such a problem right now is because Iran wanted to conquer the territory and when the allied commanders figured that out, they made the Iranian soldiers more or less babysitters in the already cleared areas so they could exert any spoils of war claims. This was taken as an insult by Iranian leaders which is a big reason to why they singed out bush with insults in return. Now that Bush is out of office, Iran is contemplating joining our efforts in Afghanistan again.

      I guess Iran hated Bush more then the taliban but the dislikes the taliban more then the US.

    11. Re:Good by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Not really. Islamic Terrorism has been around for quite a while and while we did help with the resistance against the Soviet Union, that help was directed to people acting towards an invading army not a civilian population.

      Terrorism sort of requires an act of terror. While there probably isn't and hard set definition that spans the globe, a military member serving in a country they recently invaded would be expecting the acts and it probably wouldn't be considered acts of terror.

      If you mean the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, then you forget that it was not that one-sided (just Soviets on one side, just Afghanis on the other). In practice, it was a civil war, in which the USSR intervened on behalf of one side. And all sides in the war (both Afghani parties, and Soviet forces) used terror tactics against the enemy, including civilian population.

      Also, I wonder how to classify torture killings of POWs, such as the "red tulip" practiced by Mujahideen on captive Soviets and Afghani collaborators (which is basically flaying alive down to the waist so that strips of skin look like petals of the flower).

    12. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Sure there was a civil war going on but from my understanding, the rebels attacked the government and military, including the soviet military. I'm not aware of any indoctrinated or wide spread tactics used by the side the US supported that targeted civilians in efforts to sway the government.

      Some civilians may have ended up as casualties in these fights and attacks but that makes their role collateral and not intended as terrorism would imply.

      As for the torture killings of POWs, I would consider them exactly that- Torture killings. While just as heinous and reprehensible as terrorist attacks or even cold blooded murder or worse, I wouldn't give any more credit to them then what they were. And you already identified them as torture killings which I believe fits the bill.

    13. Re:Good by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Wow... okay it's hard to respond to so many things.

      About the details of the revolution, my point is simply that the Russians weren't an "invading army" in the sense that Russia said hey let's take over Afghanistan today. You seem to agree with that much. For the subjective part, yes, to the mujahideen the Russians were an invading army. To the urban Afghans who *wanted* all those reforms and did *not* want to be taken over by hardline Islamists, they were not an invading army. I guess I take the second viewpoint because I'm not at all sympathetic to hardline Islam. Maybe you are, great.

      Your original point was that we supported the mujahideen against an invading army and not a general populace. What I disagree with you on there is that the mujahideen terrorized PLENTY of Afghan civilians -- the ones who supported the reforms. Afghanistan, like Pakistan today, is deeply divided between city dwellers and the more tribal cultures in rural areas. The tribes and their warlords were against reform, the urbanites supported reforms.

      When we armed the mujahideen to fight the Soviets, we also armed them to terrorize that urban population. It wasn't just a few thousand hardcore party supporters, it was millions of people. Afghanistan was modernizing. They were getting educated. They were abandoning the strictest parts of Islam.

      Islam had nothing to do with it. The government was oppressing them and everyone in the country independent of Islam. For fucks sake, learn a little about the so called "reforms" they implemented.

      Okay let me learn a little bit about them real quick. No need to get so angry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Democratic_Party_of_Afghanistan

      Okay, done, and in conclusion:

      "These new reforms were not well-received by the majority of the Afghan population (particularly in rural areas). As many saw it was un-Islamic and was seen as a forced approach to western culture in Afghan society as many tribal societies in Afghanistan tend to be conservative.[17] The urban population in Afghanistan supported the modernization of the community and country but was against the Soviet occupation."

      Now... you keep saying that Islam had nothing to do with it... but the people who had a problem with the reforms were hardline Muslims who felt the reforms were un-Islamic! Why do you keep saying it has nothing to do with Islam??? It's like saying if a Muslim empire came and took over America tomorrow and forced us all to adopt Muslim customs, then the American resistance would have nothing to do with traditional American values, and nothing to do with Islam. Huh?

      Here's my understanding of it. The pro-communist government instituted programs that significantly altered the traditional practice of Islam in the country. This pissed off a lot of rural Muslims. The Muslims had a revolution because they did not like how un-Islamic the government's new laws were.

      Now please correct me if I'm wrong. Please mention all the factors of the revolution that have "nothing to do with Islam." I don't know them and I want to know.

      And you also wrong about the mujahideen definition. It means "someone who struggles". If you would have read the Wikipedia article, [wikipedia.org] further then what you thought was required to support your claim, you would see that associations to Islamic terrorist is only a recent thing and mainly a western thing.

      Okay. If you have paid attention to the Western media talking about Islam in the last decade, you know that jihad means "struggle". There is the greater jihad and the lesser jihad. It's all bullshit, ok? Jihad means religious war and this watered down interpretation is the one that is new and spiffy.

      If you ever bother reading the koran it is really easy to see what Mohammed was talking about when he talked about jihad. There's no "jihad for education" in any Muslim country. There's no "ji

    14. Re:Good by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'm not aware of any indoctrinated or wide spread tactics used by the side the US supported that targeted civilians in efforts to sway the government.

      There wasn't really a "single side" - the U.S. supported all groups that were anti-Soviet, and those often didn't properly coordinate. But you should remember that people who would form Taliban were the part of Mujahideen movement, as well as guys like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who, among other things, resorted to indiscriminate area shelling during the siege of Kabul (and you can argue of his earlier exploits, including those during the time when he was directly sponsored by CIA, in that Wikipedia article).

      Frankly, given the nature of the society in the region, and the long-running feuds between various factions, it would be extremely surprising if an armed conflict with their participation wouldn't involve any deliberate attacks against civilians - it is, quite plainly, the way of life in those lands. They're happily massacring each other even now; it is strange to think that those very same people (and most of them are the same!) didn't do the same back in 1980s, when Soviets were involved.

      I agree that this wasn't done to "sway the government", however, because there simply weren't a government to be swayed there. It was done to sway the people themselves, rather, and also as acts of retribution. However, I don't think that this is sufficient to not classify deliberate targeting of civilians as a non-terrorist act.

    15. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      There wasn't really a "single side" - the U.S. supported all groups that were anti-Soviet, and those often didn't properly coordinate. But you should remember that people who would form Taliban were the part of Mujahideen movement, as well as guys like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar [wikipedia.org], who, among other things, resorted to indiscriminate area shelling during the siege of Kabul (and you can argue of his earlier exploits, including those during the time when he was directly sponsored by CIA, in that Wikipedia article).

      I don't necessarily disagree with this statement. My point is that it's illegitimate to claim that because of a future action, the US supported what those people became. We supported people rebelling against an unpopular and illegitimate government that was supported by a country acting contrary to our own interest who imposed what most of the citizens considered oppressive laws onto the populous. The fact that they were Muslim is ancillary to the situation as much as most of the US was christian or Atheist. Anything they did in the future like some of them forming Islamic fascist groups (taliban) or extremist Islamic fundamental terrorist groups (Al Qeada) or their future participating in those groups cannot be considered at a time they didn't display those faults in character. It's like blaming the University of Iowa because a chemistry major ended up joining one of those groups and used his education to aid in the death and destruction. If the University of Iowa knew it was educating someone who had that intent, then sure the blame is justified. If they didn't, then it's not. Just as it's not justified to claim the US or any other group supported Islamofacist radical bent on imposing Islamic fundamentalism on the world.

      Frankly, given the nature of the society in the region, and the long-running feuds between various factions, it would be extremely surprising if an armed conflict with their participation wouldn't involve any deliberate attacks against civilians - it is, quite plainly, the way of life in those lands. They're happily massacring each other even now; it is strange to think that those very same people (and most of them are the same!) didn't do the same back in 1980s, when Soviets were involved.

      I think your confusing tribal warfare with terrorism. There are some unique things about the area that resemble the American Indian in which they resided within the same territories but waged war among themselves when it suited them but united when it was convenient. Their inter-tribal wars can be summed up more like wars or civil wars when the influence of one tribe outweighed it's usefulness but the point there was still a war and not terrorism as we would consider it today. It's sort of like calling the war tactics in WW2 terrorist actions because of the lack of accuracy of bombs knowing that guided missiles availible today are mostly accurate. The context would just be wrong.

      I agree that this wasn't done to "sway the government", however, because there simply weren't a government to be swayed there. It was done to sway the people themselves, rather, and also as acts of retribution. However, I don't think that this is sufficient to not classify deliberate targeting of civilians as a non-terrorist act.

      I strongly think that it you remove your enlightenment of today's interpretation, you will find that at the time, the actions were not terrorist in nature. The problem is that what was normal and acceptable when viewed with the magnifying glasses of a different time, you are able to label actions in ways they were never taking at the time they happened. Take slavery for instance, do you really think the majority of people thought it was bad or that slaves were equal to regular people _at_the_time_ it was legal in the US and Europe? Then you can't say that they were doing something they knew was wrong nor can you label it in the same w

    16. Re:Good by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Anything they did in the future like some of them forming Islamic fascist groups (taliban) or extremist Islamic fundamental terrorist groups (Al Qeada) or their future participating in those groups cannot be considered at a time they didn't display those faults in character.

      Afghani Mujahideen always tended to be extremely conservative Muslims as a whole, so it wasn't exactly unexpected...

      In any case, I think it's pretty obvious that U.S. didn't support them because of some innate desire to help the oppressed against the oppressors - not any more so than the USSR did when supporting anti-colonial wars, for example. Both were merely proxy wars, instances of fighting the Cold War enemy with others' hands. By chance, one side or the other may have perceived moral superiority in some cases by supporting the "right" guys, but this is rather accidental to the original intent.

      I strongly think that it you remove your enlightenment of today's interpretation, you will find that at the time, the actions were not terrorist in nature. The problem is that what was normal and acceptable when viewed with the magnifying glasses of a different time, you are able to label actions in ways they were never taking at the time they happened. Take slavery for instance, do you really think the majority of people thought it was bad or that slaves were equal to regular people _at_the_time_ it was legal in the US and Europe? Then you can't say that they were doing something they knew was wrong nor can you label it in the same ways as you would if you found people illegally holding and trading slaves today.

      I'm all for applying the morals and cultural norms of the particular time when looking back at our history; but I find it to be a very weak excuse when other societies have already, at a given time, demonstrated that a higher level is possible to achieve. In that respect, Europe in Middle Ages was positively barbaric compared to the Caliphate, for example, and early Imperial Russia was barbaric compared to contemporary Europe (because in both cases, they had a real world, non-theoretical example to follow, but they choose not to). From that follows that in our day and age - and even back into 1970s - deliberate mass murder of civilian population cannot be excused by being "customary" in any place that has any contact whatsoever with the global civilization (and it's not like the West isn't constantly trying to get the human rights message across with all possible means!).

      Of course, between the Balkans, Africa, and Middle East, we still have a long way to go. Yet, it's sad to see us (meaning "west" here - I'm not an American) make the same mistakes as before: now we're supporting one corrupt and effectively theocratic and oppressively clericalist Afghani regime against another - which, granted, is somewhat more oppresive, but from our perspective they should both be revolting - with the might of our guns, and the blood of our soldiers. Why?

    17. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I think maybe we are talking around each other.

      About the details of the revolution, my point is simply that the Russians weren't an "invading army" in the sense that Russia said hey let's take over Afghanistan today. You seem to agree with that much. For the subjective part, yes, to the mujahideen the Russians were an invading army. To the urban Afghans who *wanted* all those reforms and did *not* want to be taken over by hardline Islamists, they were not an invading army. I guess I take the second viewpoint because I'm not at all sympathetic to hardline Islam. Maybe you are, great.

      The Russians came in to support an imposed governemnt that was oppressing the people. I never said they were invaded, I said they were viewed as invaders by the afghan people. And that view was not limited to just the resistance fighters, it was the view of the majority of the population as admited by the Russian army commanders in the area.

      And in the beginning, they weren't looking to displace the government to be taken over by hard line extremist Muslims. That's nothing more then a concept you are imposing because of your after the fact knowledge of the Taliban who formed and took control well after the Russians pulled out. They were attempting to over throw the imposed government and undo what they considered oppression imposed by the communist government. The norther alliance which is the group that the US worked with the most who also ended up in control of most of the area did not attempt to impose Islamic sharia laws or religious convictions onto the people. They attempted to revert back to how a lot of things were before the communist took over. These things included to allowing farmers the freedom to grow what they wanted, to allow them to participate in commerce, to reinstitute mariages and customs that had been part of their customs and traditions for centuries, to return nationalize industry to their rightful owners, to allow citizens to borrow and better their lives and so on.

      Your original point was that we supported the mujahideen against an invading army and not a general populace. What I disagree with you on there is that the mujahideen terrorized PLENTY of Afghan civilians -- the ones who supported the reforms. Afghanistan, like Pakistan today, is deeply divided between city dwellers and the more tribal cultures in rural areas. The tribes and their warlords were against reform, the urbanites supported reforms.

      No, my original point was that after the Soviet Union came to support the communist government that many afghan people thought illegitimate and oppressive, we entered in support of the people who didn't want to be oppressed. You can equate those actions somewhat to those of France during our own revolutionary war. Well, with the exception that Afghanistan was actually a country that existed before the communist took control and started their "oppression". To the afghan people, this was probably worse then what we went through where we started seeing how fucked things were. They had traditions, customs, freedoms, and a history of things that was taken from them under the guise of progressive reforms which is code for "don't complain about your loss of freedoms, we are moving forward".

      When we armed the mujahideen to fight the Soviets, we also armed them to terrorize that urban population. It wasn't just a few thousand hardcore party supporters, it was millions of people. Afghanistan was modernizing. They were getting educated. They were abandoning the strictest parts of Islam.

      You see what I mean, your doing it right here. The people's losses of traditions, the freedoms they no longer had, the monetary values ripped from their hands without compesations, the being forced to do certain things against their will has no effect on you. You just look at them "modernizing" and moving to what you think is better. The communist are great, the anti-

    18. Re:Good by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Afghani Mujahideen always tended to be extremely conservative Muslims as a whole, so it wasn't exactly unexpected...

      In any case, I think it's pretty obvious that U.S. didn't support them because of some innate desire to help the oppressed against the oppressors - not any more so than the USSR did when supporting anti-colonial wars, for example. Both were merely proxy wars, instances of fighting the Cold War enemy with others' hands. By chance, one side or the other may have perceived moral superiority in some cases by supporting the "right" guys, but this is rather accidental to the original intent.

      Proxy wars or not, the same fundamentals were at stake as were in Vietnam and Korea. You may be right in the hidden intent however, the justification was not made up and did pass public muster. This sort of means that we would have/the public would have still supported the efforts without the hidden agenda.

      I just wish we could get some balls and done something about Rwanda and darfur where we really could have made a difference.

      I'm all for applying the morals and cultural norms of the particular time when looking back at our history; but I find it to be a very weak excuse when other societies have already, at a given time, demonstrated that a higher level is possible to achieve. In that respect, Europe in Middle Ages was positively barbaric compared to the Caliphate, for example, and early Imperial Russia was barbaric compared to contemporary Europe (because in both cases, they had a real world, non-theoretical example to follow, but they choose not to). From that follows that in our day and age - and even back into 1970s - deliberate mass murder of civilian population cannot be excused by being "customary" in any place that has any contact whatsoever with the global civilization (and it's not like the West isn't constantly trying to get the human rights message across with all possible means!).

      I'm not in opposition of the premise your speaking from. However, I'm not aware of deliberate mass murder of civilian populations in the Afghan war. As for tactics and real world examples, it takes time to see the enlightenment before a group of people can be expected to morally follow it. I agree with your impressions of the Middle Ages in Europe and as such, slavery with my example was outlaws in Europe long before in the US. But we needed a civil war and plenty of suffering before we could convince enough people of it.

      So it isn't a blanket dismissal as much as it's an understanding. I would say it's still not good/evil/reprehensible but it's simply not at the same level of that as it would be if it happened today. Especially when for the most part, policy makers and the people in charge are different people and in most cases an entirely different generation today.

      Of course, between the Balkans, Africa, and Middle East, we still have a long way to go. Yet, it's sad to see us (meaning "west" here - I'm not an American) make the same mistakes as before: now we're supporting one corrupt and effectively theocratic and oppressively clericalist Afghani regime against another - which, granted, is somewhat more oppresive, but from our perspective they should both be revolting - with the might of our guns, and the blood of our soldiers. Why?

      Sadly, the most I can say here is that I agree. However, as long as the government is openly democratic in it's selection of leaders, I think that it's up to the people to reject it. And eventually, one day they might reject it. But they may also welcome it, they may at sometime trade for what they think is the best of both worlds. That's the greatest thing about a government of the people, for the most part, the people get what they want and if they are free, they will learn about freedoms elsewhere and get something better.

      It seems like Freedom has taken a back seat in the west while pretending to be front and center standing at attention, I don't think Afghanistan will have that problem for a while. At least not just yet when people are pretending to be free.

  7. GoogleBomb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And soon someone will googlebomb OSCT to first place for keyword "terrorist organization".

  8. Sharia Courts? by Daemonax · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Hasn't the British government been allowing Sharia courts to operate in Britain for some time?

    If they want to battle "radical" Islam then how about getting rid of the Sharia Courts? How about really clamping down on female genital mutilation happening in Britain and to British citizens?

    Tweaking some search results, that's pathetic. Islam is a danger to civilized nations, so trying to weaken it is fine, but this pathetic, it will do next to nothing.

    1. Re:Sharia Courts? by 1u3hr · · Score: 5, Informative
      hasn't the British government been allowing Sharia courts to operate in Britain for some time?

      Only in civil cases if BOTH parties agree to accept its judgement:

      Sheikh Faiz-ul-Aqtab Siddiqi, whose Muslim Arbitration Tribunal runs the courts, said he had taken advantage of a clause in the Arbitration Act 1996. Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.

      Obviously this could not apply to normal criminal matters (theft, violent crime, etc). So no hands chopped off for theft, no adulterers stoned to death. It's just arbitration, where the arbitrator happens to be Muslim.

    2. Re:Sharia Courts? by Patch86 · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's worth highlighting that that legislation allows pretty much any body to be used as arbitrators in civil cases, as long as both parties agree to be bound by its outcome.

      It "allows Sharia courts" only insofar as it allows you to appoint anyone to solve your dispute for you.

    3. Re:Sharia Courts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and if a woman refuses to agree to the Sharia court, she will be see as a traitor and a scum by her friends and all her community.

    4. Re:Sharia Courts? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Genital mutilation is not Muslim. It's an ancient Egyptian tradition from the time of the Pharaohs. It's widespread across mid-Africa and it has been incorporated in the Muslim traditions of some communities. As far as I know, it's not used in the Arab world, except for Egypt.

    5. Re:Sharia Courts? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Informative
      It "allows Sharia courts" only insofar as it allows you to appoint anyone to solve your dispute for you.

      Of course, all these poor near illeterate immigrant women brought up in a strict male dominant hierarchy will know their rights and refuse to "appoint" these mullahs, imams, muftis as their arbitrator and seek the full protection from the agents of the crown. Yup, these groups have a sterling reputation for standing up to peer pressure & social pressure, defy ostracization. Their fiercely independent streak is known throughout the world. Yeah, sure. It is just arbitration and the mufti is freely chosen by both parties.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    6. Re:Sharia Courts? by h4rm0ny · · Score: 1


      In practice, the pressure in a community can force people to go along with sharia law even though it is far from in their best interests. This is principally for women in divorce cases, adultery cases, domestic abuse cases and basically anything where a woman is facing a man in the court. The UK government has washed its hands of this and made it much harder for women in Islamic communities in the UK.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
    7. Re:Sharia Courts? by stdarg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly! The noble-minded defenders of "mutual consent to arbitration" also ignore the gangs patrolling the ghettos where these immigrants live that enforce sharia themselves. What do you think happens to people who live there who DON'T agree to arbitration by a sharia court? They deal with the sharia gang.

    8. Re:Sharia Courts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, well in that case, carry on!

    9. Re:Sharia Courts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Damn straight - there should be no 'mutual agreement' in the law - it should just be one standard of court or arbritation for all... an ex-gf lived in East London and told me about scores of young girls who didn't go to school because of the same type of peer pressure. Not religious of course, I think Islam promotes education for all, but purely cultural ... I thought you went ot jail if you're kids didn't go to school - go figure...

    10. Re:Sharia Courts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh huh, and it's legal to "bet my life" or guarantee a contract with my life's blood.

      Wait, no it isn't.

    11. Re:Sharia Courts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hasn't the British government been allowing Sharia courts to operate in Britain for some time?

      Only in civil cases if BOTH parties agree to accept its judgement:

      which sounds very fair until you find out what happens to a member of that community who decides to refuse that kind of arbitration. With sharia, women just cannot win.

    12. Re:Sharia Courts? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Of course, all these poor near illeterate immigrant women brought up in a strict male dominant hierarchy will know their rights and refuse to "appoint" these mullahs, imams, muftis as their arbitrator and seek the full protection from the agents of the crown.

      May be true, I have no idea (do you, really?). The point is though that the British police will not hand then over to a sharia court to be judged, and that a shariah "arbitrator" does not have the power to send anyone to prison, let alone to be beaten or executed. If people don't exercise the rights they have, it's hard to force them to do so.

    13. Re:Sharia Courts? by Daemonax · · Score: 1

      It is still fueled by the same stupid lack of critical thinking that fuels religion. Many of the reasons that FGM has continued is due to superstitious beliefs. Things like if they don't remove the clitoris, it will grow around the girls neck and strangle her in her sleep, and other stupid things. FGM is also carried out mostly by Muslims, and I would argue it will continue while Muslims continue to believe that women are second rate humans.

    14. Re:Sharia Courts? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      It is still fueled by the same stupid lack of critical thinking that fuels religion.

      Couldn't agree more.

      FGM is also carried out mostly by Muslims

      Not sure about this one.

      it will continue while Muslims continue to believe that women are second rate humans.

      I live in a catholic country. In the time of my grandparents, women had to wear long skirts and their hair tied and covered. It was commonly accepted that men could have mistresses, get drunk and beat up their wives. A single mother would be cast out from society, so they had to resort to the "old hag" that made abortions. Women were not allowed to have jobs, drive a car, be alone with a man, smoke or drink, or simply leave the house in extreme cases.

      It has changed a lot, but some of these things still happen, mainly in the countryside. The Muslim societies will also evolve, just give them time. Hostility against Muslims as a whole will only make the fanatic nutjobs stronger.

    15. Re:Sharia Courts? by Daemonax · · Score: 1

      I hope you are right about just giving them more time. But I worry that the communities they have formed in western societies will protect them from progressing out of their backwards misogynistic ways.
      In the west, as you've point out, the situtation for women is now much better. I think this is in large part due to the weakening of religion in our modern lives, and so strong religious communities such as many Muslim ones, are a danger to our modern culture. It's not the people I have an issue with, but the barbaric parts of the culture that they bring with them and try to maintain.

    16. Re:Sharia Courts? by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      I think you mean fundamentalist Muslims, not the community as a whole. Anyway, replace Muslims by Evangelist Christians, Orthodox Jews, whatever. The same sentences are true.

    17. Re:Sharia Courts? by Daemonax · · Score: 1

      No, I mean the community as a whole, which while it may consist mostly of moderate people, forms a powerbase and fertile field for the growth of a small amount of extremists.
      And I would say the same about a Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Scientologist or any other religious community. That it provides a safe environment in which belief is incuabted, nutured and protected from criticism, which obviously allows even just a tiny amount of people to developed strong fundamentalist beliefs.
      A rational scientific community doesn't have this danger in general because science thrives on criticism and evidence. So I think we can be quite certain that we wouldn't see someone kill another because one believes that dinosaurs were killed by a meteor collison with earth and the other believes that mammals evolved and ate the eggs.

    18. Re:Sharia Courts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't believe how many angry narrow-minded ill-informed bigots there are leaving comments in this thread.

      Wake up!

  9. Wrong solution or wrong problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

    Kill them all. Let God sort them out.

    You can decide suitable definitions for "them all" and "God" yourself.

    1. Re:Wrong solution or wrong problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

      Kill them all. Let God sort them out.

      You can decide suitable definitions for "them all" and "God" yourself.

      Hey people at least the above poster has given a solution.

      We just have to forget of course the majority of people who follow Islam do not live in the middle east and of course there are the innocents to think of ..........

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

  10. And now for something completely different... by retech · · Score: 1

    A gov't that created the standards we know and love as ITIL.

    A group of paranoid Orwellian Facists.

    A religous group that's a political powder keg.

    And THE big brain.

    Starring Michael Palin, Eric Idle, Terry Jones and John Cleese, in a film written by Graham Chapman and directed by Terry Gilliam.

    Honestly, the UK just writes this stuff for the satirists.

  11. Only 3 words can describe my confusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WHAT THE FUCK!?

  12. Nice idea, but... by Omegamogo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Problem is, the mainstream Muslims aren't the ones that need to be targeted, but the high-risk volatile ones. The rest of us don't feel anything about the west more than either some admiration on the liberal-side of the political spectrum, or some casual antipathy on the religious/conservative side of politics.

    I live in Saudi Arabia. Which doesn't seem to have much of a global image as being progressive these days, and I can still tell you that most grad students these days want to study either in Canada or the US, followed by the UK and Australia (English in highschool is mandatory...hence the destinations of choice being all English-speaking countries).

    1. Re:Nice idea, but... by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They aren't really targeting the mainstream Muslims. The intent of this is to sweep the radicals under the rug or put them in the back or the room so noone can look at them.

      By flooding the search engines to bring up search results only pointing to the mainstream Muslim sites, they are attempting to stop little Johny from getting bored, finding an extremist site, becoming brainwashed, strapping a bomb to his balls in some ignorant belief of 72 virgins as a reward when he is too young to realize they will be permanent virgins so the effect would be more like living with 72 twelve year old sisters, and blowing himself and others up.

      They are looking for the "out of site, out of mind" approach. If they can't find it, they won't become it. But hey, Ignoring the problem has worked so well for so long, what could go wrong? And this plan has the added benefit of the public missing out on what is happening and not demanding the government provide as much protection from the fundamentalist extremist bent on their destruction. This way the government won't have to spend so much Time, money and effort on defending the people and foiling the extremist plots before they can harm innocent civilians that the government is charged with the protection of. More cameras and license plate sensors can be installed to watch the public and track their movements and make sure they pay the taxes.

    2. Re:Nice idea, but... by Omegamogo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, the virgins thing is a bit of a misconception of sorts. It's based on a very unreliable quotation of Muhammad (Hadith) passed around via a chain of narrators as long as your arm before it was written down.

      Back on topic, that DOES appear to be the goal of this venture I guess, in a social equivalent of the Security By Obscurity model, but it's kind of futile. Extremist sites may change the religious/political orientation of someone impressionable, but the actual "terrorist trigger" is usually a meme passed on IRL by friends or family. It's much harder to pass online, methinks.

      Hell, over here a localized War On Terror has been going on since 2003 after a rather large terrorist attack in Riyadh, and what did the government do? go for the watering holes. Summer camps, publications, clamped down on hardline clerics, and yes, a few websites. But they weren't the first point of connection.

    3. Re:Nice idea, but... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Now YOU are being misleading. The Koran does promise these rewards, it just doesn't make reference to the specific NUMBER.

      Another thing that is ignored by most people is that you get access to virgin boys, not just virgin women. It's pretty disgusting. It's a great insight into the culture though and helps explain why saudi men seem to love holding hands so much. (e.g. check out Bush in this article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0426/dailyUpdate.html)

    4. Re:Nice idea, but... by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      So gay sex is disgusting? Nice to see you agree with the islamists so much.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    5. Re:Nice idea, but... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Yes, gay sex with children is pretty disgusting. I thought "virgin boys" was pretty clear in meaning, but I guess not to everyone.

    6. Re:Nice idea, but... by Omegamogo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Homophobic much?

      And no, in fact, it doesn't. At least not for martyrs. Even the shaky Hadith I spoke of earlier specifically promised that those who will have 72 Houri in heaven are those who got the LEAST reward in the afterlife. In other words, those who have barely stopped themselves from being utter assholes in THIS life.

      The Houri? Often simplistically translated simply as virgins, usually, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. As far as anyone can gather, it refers to otherworldly creatures altogether, ones described as having ethereal beauty and purity. Possibly the form that humans are said to be reborn as. "Purity" possibly being the point of mistranslation, since in archaic contexts it's occasionally used interchangeably with virginity.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri

    7. Re:Nice idea, but... by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Homophobic much?

      Ad hominem much?

      And no, in fact, it doesn't. At least not for martyrs. Even the shaky Hadith I spoke of earlier specifically promised that those who will have 72 Houri in heaven are those who got the LEAST reward in the afterlife. In other words, those who have barely stopped themselves from being utter assholes in THIS life.

      What that means is that in this life you think in terms of sexual reward because sex is the highest physical pleasure, but once you get to heaven you will see that all the sexual pleasure in the world pales in comparison to the glory of being in Allah's light.

      Martyrs get the 72 houris as well as all the other stuff. It's an extra reward, not a punishment for being an asshole. Where did you even get that interpretation?

      The Houri? Often simplistically translated simply as virgins, usually, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. As far as anyone can gather, it refers to otherworldly creatures altogether, ones described as having ethereal beauty and purity.

      You're right, they are not human. They are eternal virgins though, as in you have sex with them, then they regrow their hymens and act like virgins all over again. That's what I read anyway.

    8. Re:Nice idea, but... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      You're right, they are not human. They are eternal virgins though, as in you have sex with them, then they regrow their hymens and act like virgins all over again. That's what I read anyway.

      So they'll act awkward, hesitant, and unlearned every single time? ;-)

    9. Re:Nice idea, but... by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      ... Saudi Arabia [w]hich doesn't seem to have much of a global image as being progressive these days ...

      And deservedly so. Has much changed in the last several years?

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    10. Re:Nice idea, but... by Omegamogo · · Score: 1

      I can proudly say that yes, things have changed a good deal since then. Since that particular incident the religious police have been getting a lot of heat from certain facets of the press, and from bloggers most of all. No one is ever going to let that incident die down.

      It's not quite a full about-face yet, but things are changing as time goes by. Slowly, but surely. The popularity of the religious police has been on the downturn ever since. Before that incident, smaller affronts made by them were swept under the rug. Now, anything negative they do is blown wide open. And they've become acutely aware of it.

      These folks are largely the backlash that resulted from a certain incident in the late 1970s...that's out of the scope of this post, but I can tell you that I don't see them around for another 30 years.

    11. Re:Nice idea, but... by Omegamogo · · Score: 1

      Pardon my coarseness, but where the HELL have you ever read about Zombie Hymens?! That's just freaky.

      And yes, sexual reward does indeed factor into the equation. It's not paramount, but it's a factor. Think about the early days of the spread of Islam; what do you think that half-illiterate pagan warrior tribes would have found more appealing in exchange for adopting a strict moral system that seriously cramped their hedonistic style; the promise of salvation, and the notion of the general benefit to mankind of them not being assholes, or the promise of poontang and luxury in the hereafter?

  13. Biased and unfair by Celc · · Score: 1

    Why can't I get money to spread the positive side of anti-religious zealotism. Like for instance how government doesn't waste tax money spreading the good points behind anti-religious zealotism.

  14. re-write TFA by Jalfro · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It looks to me as if the Register has got this one wrong. The original criticisms were of negative tweaks against extremist sites by the government, as the quote they use in their article illustrates. This is about positive tweaking to promote genuine Islamic sites - and it's only, apparently part of a wider strategy of supporting peaceful interpretations of Islam, exactly what the original report recommended.

    1. Re:re-write TFA by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No matter how you look at it, it's the government promoting one religion over another and attempting to bury their speech to make it happen.

      It seems that you agree with the end goal which I sort of do too. But what happens when this action is taken to squash all other religions or negative but rightly placed speech against the government or to create a state religion or lead the people to believe a certain thing in order to pass an otherwise unpopular law that the people wouldn't stand for? I mean could you imagine doing a search on the interweb for Iraq and finding only the "Saddam tried to get yellow cake" or "Iraq has WMDs that terrorists want or can get" sites and articles and being led to believe that Iraq posed a great enough threat to the world that an immediate war was required to limit the potential damage because the government decided to optimize the search engines to get a certain message across and hide others?

      Why, if that happened, we might see a couple of otherwise well mannered countries start a war.

    2. Re:re-write TFA by jork · · Score: 1

      The reporting in the Register has really went down hill lately. The Register == The Sun Newspaper for geeks.

    3. Re:re-write TFA by Jalfro · · Score: 1

      could you imagine doing a search on the interweb for Iraq and finding only the "Saddam tried to get yellow cake" or "Iraq has WMDs that terrorists want or can get"

      Well, yes I could - if I lived in China (though of course the messages would be different). But I don't think the UK government has the power to do anything like this. Surely, this is just what companies like Amazon do all the time to get to the top of the search list? Isn't that how Google makes its millions?.

    4. Re:re-write TFA by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm sure it is how they make their millions. However, I don't think they are going to cry over who gives it to them. I also was under the impressions that paid results was also covered under serch engine optimizations. So yes, I think the UK government or about any government going at it right, would be more then capable in doing it.

      They don't need to completely stop apposing views from surfacing, they just need them to be on page 15 or 20 of the search results with what they want in front. Most people stop searching after the first few pages of results (unless it's a image search for some porn).

    5. Re:re-write TFA by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Where's our sexy page 3 grrl geeks then?

  15. Re:Sharia Courts nothing to worry about. by auric_dude · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not as bad as it sounds http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm as you can see other religions can also pass judgements upon small non-criminal sectors of the law meanwhile all criminal matters are reserved for the UK's state courts.

  16. This isnt new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ahhh, the old nazi party technique
    Flood the media with nice, positive messages

  17. Have they now lost their minds completly ? by burni · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This would be a hillarious joke for april fools day, but if they want to counter radical muslims this way won't work.

    Muslims mostly tend to build local social groups mostly in favour of their origin-region(not country), these social groups are mostly not
    radical but, from our point of view their views onto the world differ hughly from ours(*).

    But in such communities radical thoughts and comments will occur as a common understanding of that the western society tries to supress the islam.

    And here is the catch, these "supported" people and groups will find themselves outcast as they are seen as a part of a western supression strategy.
    They will be recognized as traitors, and these former actions like "google-optimisation" will be seen as an evidence and so strengthen the common understanding of a western conspiracy.

    Thus can also push moderate muslims into a position, where their word becomes less weight than it had.

    Diplomacy will not convert muslims into liberal nude loving naturists, nor will war. We(wester people) should realize one thing
    you can only gain someones trust when you not try to betray him, and with trust you can start a discussion about certain things,
    like stoning of cheaters and heretics, as a start.

    The human rights are a philosophical construct with the intention to make lives better for everyone, I think we should remember
    those humanist philosophers, which brought us to a state of self-awareness, and start thinking about our selves and our actions.

    Diplomacy does not work from top to down, like a hierachie it works on trust.

    (*) This is my point of view as an observer.

    1. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by tjstork · · Score: 1

      these social groups are mostly not
      radical but, from our point of view their views onto the world differ hughly from ours(*)

      That would, uh, mean they are radical.

      --
      This is my sig.
    2. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd gladly agree to your sentiments, but I can't get past the first line of monospace font.

    3. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by burni · · Score: 1

      Yes you got me, but I used radical in the meaning of willing to harvest money for terrorists or propaganda or try to push people into a certain group.

      Would be the term "militant" more accurate.

    4. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by ActusReus · · Score: 1

      You've made two posts in this thread, and the replies you've gotten for your effort in both cases are mostly, "Stop using monospace font... it cases me to completely ignore the content of what you just posted".

      I don't think you understand how annoying and stupid this is. I don't know about other environments, but on Firefox under Ubuntu your font is too tiny to read even if I DID feel like it. The fact that you had to go out of your way in applying tags to get this result is insane. Just take the defaults.

    5. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You make the assumption that these muftis, mullahs and imams, whose power and pay check comes from these immigrant muslim population will stand on the side lines when you develop your trust without betraying them. These leaders of the community fear their flock melting and merging into the larger British (or American) society. You assume they will allow this trust to develop and not nip in the bud.

      Please sit down, it might come as a shock to you. Muslims who get educated and understand their rights and don't want to be under the thumb of these muftis, quietly leave. They usually marry non moslems, typically Hindu Indians, give their children neutral non muslim names, and allow them to grow up to be regular subjects of the crown. Who is left behind under the thumb of these muftis and mullahs are those who don't understand their rights, who cant/wont resist oppression. That is why the ocean is salty. Water evaporates and leaves salt behind. That is why the muslim immigrant groups in the West have higher concentration of radicals.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    6. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I'm posting to agree with the other people who have told you to stop posting in a monospace font. Why do you do it? For most people, it makes it harder to read. If you personally prefer reading in monospace, then set your browser to display in monospace. I read half of your other post before decided the monospace was too irritating, and I have not read any of this one.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and they move to other areas of the world and try to adjust the laws to mirror those which ruined their own countries. Winning system eh?

    8. Re:Have they now lost their minds completly ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You make the assumption that these muftis, mullahs and imams, whose power and pay check comes from these immigrant muslim population will stand on the side lines when you develop your trust without betraying them. These leaders of the community fear their flock melting and merging into the larger British (or American) society. You assume they will allow this trust to develop and not nip in the bud.

      Please sit down, it might come as a shock to you. Muslims who get educated and understand their rights and don't want to be under the thumb of these muftis, quietly leave. They usually marry non moslems, typically Hindu Indians, give their children neutral non muslim names, and allow them to grow up to be regular subjects of the crown. Who is left behind under the thumb of these muftis and mullahs are those who don't understand their rights, who cant/wont resist oppression. That is why the ocean is salty. Water evaporates and leaves salt behind. That is why the muslim immigrant groups in the West have higher concentration of radicals.

      You make the assumption that these muftis, mullahs and imams, whose power and pay check comes from these immigrant muslim population will stand on the side lines when you develop your trust without betraying them. These leaders of the community fear their flock melting and merging into the larger British (or American) society. You assume they will allow this trust to develop and not nip in the bud.

      Please sit down, it might come as a shock to you. Muslims who get educated and understand their rights and don't want to be under the thumb of these muftis, quietly leave. They usually marry non moslems, typically Hindu Indians, give their children neutral non muslim names, and allow them to grow up to be regular subjects of the crown. Who is left behind under the thumb of these muftis and mullahs are those who don't understand their rights, who cant/wont resist oppression. That is why the ocean is salty. Water evaporates and leaves salt behind. That is why the muslim immigrant groups in the West have higher concentration of radicals.

      Some pathetic replies here!

      It's always easier for you to dimiss than to try to try to understand.

      You seem to know it all about relegions and I am sure more tapping with your greasy fingers will make you feel like Darwin

      One billion Muslim worlwide must be all in the wrong side and you - you are the genuis!

  18. Home Office funded apostasy? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    If a faith is getting gamed, what else is been dropped or pushed up on google?
    Does google actively provide help with this faith based optimisation?
    So the USA has used assassins and the UK wants to try OSCT funded apostasy?
    From :
    http://www.google.com/corporate/tenthings.html
    "Placement in search results is never sold to anyone."
    Someone at google just recalls the scary start up days and that wonderful visit from the nice people in suits?
    " Instead of relying on a group of editors or solely on the frequency with which certain terms appear"
    Google now uses a 200-strong Home Office unit?
    "Google is able to determine which sites have been "voted" the best sources of information by those most interested in the information they offer"
    Is "voted" now "selected by tame academics"?
    http://www.russiatoday.com/Politics/2009-04-02/Bush_administration_accused_of_organizing_secret_assassin_cabal.html

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  19. Use another search engine. by auric_dude · · Score: 1

    Some may wish to use http://us.ixquick.com/eng/privacy-policy.html when searching for things those in power may well not like.

  20. OMG, more work for SEO professionals by AxeTheMax · · Score: 1

    Now they're being employed by the government to help further clutter up the web! I look forward to a stream of 'link to my official, government-approved website' emails.

  21. Just as likely to succeed... by jmv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...as pro-evolution content on the web is succeeding at making the creationists go away.

  22. Imagine there's no liberals... by tjstork · · Score: 0, Troll

    Dear liberals,

    you are as stupid as you are annoying,
    if people didn't have a god to kill for,
    they would invent one,
    like that stupid mother earth ]
    or bag of crystals you have been worshiping
    having some stupid thing that
    if everyone was exactly the same
    they wouldn't fight
    just stupid
    you people are stupid

    ps. paul was better than john, anyway.

    --
    This is my sig.
  23. technical solution to a social problem by gzipped_tar · · Score: 1

    n/t

    --
    Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
  24. biometric01 by biometric01 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Much has been discussed about Identity Theft, user ID's and Passwords stolen or hacked, credit cards being used without the owners knowledge and so on. Now there is a safe way of protecting your passwords and identity online from being copied, stolen and hacked by keyboard trojans, using your biometric fingerprint and face recognition, and even voice, to log on to web sites. By simply scanning your finger or face or voice you can log on to a web site, log on to your computer, and even encrypt files and folders. No more worrying about who might hack into your online accounts or even your email. No more remembering passwords or using the same passwords on many sites. This is an exciting new innovation from myBiodentity and they have about fourteen products that are enabled with biometrics including email encryption, password manager, virtual disk, and many more. You can read more at http://www.mybiodentity.com/

  25. Is terrorism such a big issue? by master_p · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Many more people die from heart attacks and car accidents each year. Why the big fuss over terrorism?

    1. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by tg123 · · Score: 1

      Many more people die from heart attacks and car accidents each year. Why the big fuss over terrorism?

      Heart Attacks I can understand - its natural, you have to die of something.

      Car accidents - I can understand - nasty, a product of our society, you have to die of something.

      Terrorism - I cannot understand, some nut job/s using violence for a political aim.

      see the difference ?

    2. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Many more people die from heart attacks and car accidents each year. Why the big fuss over terrorism?

      Because it only takes a handful of people to kill thousands of other people who were otherwise decades away from having a heart attack, and very unlikely to die in a car accident. And because our economy is already structurally built to handle random traffic deaths and the inevitable cardiac events in a certain percentage of the population - those things aren't disruptive in the large scheme of things. But an act that forces the shutdown of public transportation for a day or two, or which causes a blackout in a few large metropolitan areas for even a few days, or causes a large part of the population to have to stay home because of a smallpox outbreak... anything on that scale can do many billions of dollars of indirect damage, which can ruin businesses, eventually costing jobs, ruining families financially, and so on.

      If you had a crack house operating next door to you, with drug-addled idiots and pimps taking shots at each other every night, would you say, "Meh, it's always possible I'll have a heart attack soon, so why worry about the fact that getting rid of these clowns will reduce the odds I'll catch a bullet?" When people's deliberate actions threaten you our your family, or threaten the functioning of the society that allows that family to exist, that's very different than bad weather, accidents, or heart disease. And when charming folks like North Korea - always happy to sell weapons to third parties for a bit of cash - are busy making nukes, or places like Pakistan - also with nukes - are in a part of the world where people who publicly promise to eventually get and use such weapons against the west have a habit of being supported by local tribes and religious wackadoos, then it's really quite a bit different than a heart attack risk or bad brakes on a car. Of course, you know all of that, don't you.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    3. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I agree with the other posters. I would say it's a matter of justice. Heart attacks aren't unjust but publicly beating a young girl because she didn't consent to marriage with a taliban leader is disgusting and fills most people with rage (video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbrkTeVJlnQ)

    4. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!

    5. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ego my friend. With terrorism you have an distinct object (identified by a religion), complete with a face - you can hate it for killing, do everything in your power to kill it.

      With heart attacks on the other hand there is no "one object" you can hate - you just have to work on prevention and do what you can to cure. There is no additional pain of "fighting" it. There is no fighting that feeds the fight and keeps it going.

      That is why I have hope that some day we will over come the problem of heart attacks but we will have to live with terrorism for a long time to come.

    6. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      someone's been reading Schneier!

    7. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Just a suggestion: use the term "car wrecks" or "car crashes" rather than "accidents", as the former terms are less euphemistic.

    8. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a new source of tax revenue.

    9. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by Sibko · · Score: 1

      Many more people die from heart attacks and car accidents each year. Why the big fuss over the right to own a gun?

      It's pretty simple: People have an Agenda. Terrorism's the bogeyman that keeps us clinging to the government for help and protection, like a child; and part of that entails removing us of our responsibility to defend ourselves. Coincidentally, it also means we can't do anything when the Government gets abusive.

    10. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What people seem to be forgetting is that Britain is currently seeing fewer deaths and injuries from terrorism than we used to 20 years ago.

      Sure, the IRA never did anything quite as big as the tube bombings, but they were blowing things up every week for years. A lot more people died at their hands than to militant muslims, even if you cheat and include the US airline hijackings.

      Strangely though, our very own "dear leader" claims that we're more at risk than ever before, so they should spy on us for our own good.

    11. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by JimBowen · · Score: 1

      This is not about terrorism. This is about political power and controlling a populace.
      Terrorism is merely the spectre our governments wave over our heads to make us swallow their propaganda.

      Really, the idea is to give up our rights, freedoms, and equalities, and instead trust in the government.
      Surveillance will save us all from crime and terror. Give up your rights. If you don't want to, you must be a criminal or a terrorist.

      This search engine spam seems to me like an exercise in propaganda. The home office wants to see if it can force undesirable pages out of the public eye by means of google spam, and it has invented a legitimate way of doing it.
      It won't work, of course, as the article points out. Our governments are as incompetent as they are evil. :)

    12. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      I'd been meaning to watch that... is that it? Lol. The buildup it's had in the press, I was expecting to see her get virtually stoned to death or something. What she received was probably less punishment than the average Western child's backside gets in its lifetime.

    13. Re:Is terrorism such a big issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many more people die from heart attacks and car accidents each year. Why the big fuss over terrorism?

      I happen to agree with your underlying point, but what a STUPID way to express it.

      Heart attacks are personal health problems that we often bring on ourselves, and directly effect one person.

      Car accidents? We do already spend a lot more on preventing those every year. Promise.

  26. What the fuck? by u38cg · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    I can only presume that this is a troll with some well co-ordinated sock-puppetry. Seriously, if this is the kind of bullshit Slashdot finds insightful, I'm out of here.

    --
    [FUCK BETA]
  27. Coffee! I need coffee! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Monday mornings are brutal for me. I read the story title as:

    UK To Train Pro-Wrestler Islamic Groups To Game Google

    Seriously, that left me thinking, "Oh really? Wow. Islam must finally be mellowing out a little to be embracing pro-wrestling..."

  28. Was Imagine worth a dollar to you? by tjstork · · Score: 1

    John Lennon sung such a beautiful song it was just such a let down when I found out he was worth approx. 40 million at the time.

    Just think. John Lennon decided to become a US Citizen when Richard Nixon was President. Imagine THAT!

    Seriously, I think is a bunch of rubbish and no solo work of John's could ever come close to the bass line Paul put down in Silly Love Songs.

    But...

    if you think Imagine is such a great song that you can quote it and build a religion out of the guy, don't you think that's worth a dollar to you? I mean, if its worth a dollar to you, for the song, pony up. If 40 million other people agreed with you, what's the problem with it? Who cares if John Lennon got 40 million bucks! Did John Lennon do something that was worth a dollar to you? Pony up.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Was Imagine worth a dollar to you? by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      I have to agree, about the bassline in Silly love songs, it is brilliant!

      And I thought no one else had noticed!

  29. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GP post is accurate.

    Damningly accurate.

    Go educate yourself on the concepts of dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb, and you'll learn that Amanutjob was speaking LITERALLY when he said he wanted to "wipe Israel off the map".

    Because that's what the Koran tells Muslims to do to any part of dar al-Islam that reverts to dar al-Harb - wipe it off the map.

    Ever wonder why there were terrorist attacks in Spain? Hint: the "proper" Muslim name for Spain is al-Andulus.

    And they want it back.

    1. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Oh please. We don't score so well on the milk and flowers content of our own holy texts either. As for al-Andalus - I hate to tell you, but the etymolygy of the word predates the Islamic incursion, so I have no idea what you meant. Who is they? And do you have a citation or are you just talking out your ass?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    2. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Are you being purposely dense? Just look up al Andalus on Wikipedia. "the Arabic name given to the parts of the Iberian Peninsula governed by Muslims, at various times in the period between 711 and 1492"

      So it's not just a general term for the region, it's specifically related to rule by Muslims.

      And who are "they" ?? Did you seriously not understand the connection of "they" to "Muslims"? Perhaps not since you didn't know that al-Andulus referred to Muslim rule, so who knows.

    3. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by u38cg · · Score: 1

      A real citation, please. I am asking for the etymology of the word, since the OP seems to think it relevant. And yes, I do take issue. I seriously find it hard to believe that there are substantial numbers of Muslims out there foaming at the mouth about the issue of Spain's governance. So again, I ask, who is "they"?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    4. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Umm, the wikipedia page has a citation. "Andalus, al-" Oxford Dictionary of Islam. John L. Esposito, Ed. Oxford University Press. 2003. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. Accessed 12 June 2006.

      I don't have access to it but in my experience wikipedia is pretty accurate. On the other hand, I see you have provided ZERO evidence that al-Andalus predates the Muslim invasion of Spain, and further that even if it was used before that, that it is a simple geographical description with no connotation of *future* muslim rule. Citation please?

      I seriously find it hard to believe that there are substantial numbers of Muslims out there foaming at the mouth about the issue of Spain's governance. So again, I ask, who is "they"?

      I don't think anybody's foaming at the mouth over the issue, but I do think it was pretty obvious what "they" meant. Whether you think "they" really exist is immaterial. If I make a sentence that clearly uses "they" to refer to aliens, you wouldn't be arguing that "they" should only refer to a known, quantifiable group, right?

    5. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever wonder why there were terrorist attacks in Spain? Hint: the "proper" Muslim name for Spain is al-Andulus.

      And they want it back.

      You never heard of ETA?
      The traditional religion of Basques (ETA are basque seperatists) is Catholicism.

    6. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh please. We don't score so well on the milk and flowers content of our own holy texts either. As for al-Andalus - I hate to tell you, but the etymolygy of the word predates the Islamic incursion, so I have no idea what you meant. Who is they? And do you have a citation or are you just talking out your ass?

      Soooo, bright boy, what have you learned about dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb? And do you DARE to try and understand how those fundamental tenets of Islam relate to "wiping [countries] off the map"? In other words, GENOCIDE?

      What, are you AFRAID to actually gain some real understanding of what's deep in the tenets of Islam?

      Why would that be?

      Because it would puncture your sheltered world view that "all religions are equal"?

    7. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by u38cg · · Score: 1
      Exodus 34, 11-14. Leviticus 26, 7-9. Deuteronomy 2, 21-24. Deuteronomy 2, 26-25. Deuteronomy 7, 1-2. Joshua 6, 21. Joshua 10, 40-41. Most of Joshua, in fact. 1 Samuel 27, 8-9.

      Let's turn now to the pillars of Islam. The Sunni define five pillars of Islam: faith, prayer, alms-giving, fasting, and the pilgrimage to Mecca. I notice very little in the way of genocide in there. Also, in light of any controlling authority over Islam as a whole, I would point out that interpretations of both the meaning of Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam vary widely - but I will note that generally speaking most Muslims are of the opinion that anywhere a Muslim can live freely and follow his faith is part of Dar al-Islam.

      Lastly, once again, can you provide a citation from any vaguely organised group of Muslims who wish to reconquer Spain, please? Or would that puncture your rather one-sided view?

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    8. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spain was "owned" by the Vandals when the Berbers rolled in. "Al Andalus" is the Muslim version of "Vandalicia", a Latin name for the region.

    9. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exodus 34, 11-14. Leviticus 26, 7-9. Deuteronomy 2, 21-24. Deuteronomy 2, 26-25. Deuteronomy 7, 1-2. Joshua 6, 21. Joshua 10, 40-41. Most of Joshua, in fact. 1 Samuel 27, 8-9.

      Hmm, seems all to be Old Testament to me.

      Tell me, how many self-style Christians have you seen over the years beheading captives on TV?

      You know, "striking at the neck":

      8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

      and

      47.4: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them

      So tell me, Einstein, which behavoirs do we see paraded around TODAY?

      Is it the Old Testament ones you called attention to, or the KORANIC ones I've quoted above?

      Got the balls to post a one-word answer to that question?

      Why am I guessing the answer is a resounding chicken-shit "NO!"?

      Got the guts to explain what happened to Theo Van Gogh?

      Care to research the threat that Abdul Rahman lives under in Afghanistan?

      Ummm, is that another chickenshit "No"?

      Let's turn now to the pillars of Islam. The Sunni define five pillars of Islam: faith, prayer, alms-giving, fasting, and the pilgrimage to Mecca. I notice very little in the way of genocide in there. Also, in light of any controlling authority over Islam as a whole, I would point out that interpretations of both the meaning of Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam vary widely - but I will note that generally speaking most Muslims are of the opinion that anywhere a Muslim can live freely and follow his faith is part of Dar al-Islam.

      Maybe so, but even if "most" Muslims agree with that characterization, there could still be literally hundreds of millions that adhere to a genocidal view of kaffirs daring to live in what was once dar al-Islam deserve to be, ummm, "wiped off the map".

      Yeah, I know. It's hard to believe that's possible: someone openly stating that it's a goal to actually "wipe" an entire country, consisting of millions of people, entirely "off the map". Can you imagine how dangerous such a fundamentalist-Islamic-motivated person could be if he were to come to significant power to the point of actually being able to "wipe" an entire country "off the map"?

      And considering that some polls reveal vast number of Muslims openly admit to supporting suicide attacks, I think it's safe to say that there's a good chance that a significant majority of Muslims at least tacitly support suicide attacks.

      Scary, isn't it?

      Lastly, once again, can you provide a citation from any vaguely organised group of Muslims who wish to reconquer Spain, please? Or would that puncture your rather one-sided view?

      You didn't even bother looking for yourself, did you?

      Good grief, the fact that you could be so damn ignorant about a belief that's utterly common in Islam is quite an indictment of your sheltered existence, isn't it?

      Because calls for the retaking of al-Andulus have been going on for, ohhhh, about 500 years or so.

      Is Al Qaeda loosely organized enough for you?

      How about HAMAS?

      How about all these "mainstream" Muslim clerics?

      You sure seem to have an ignorant image of what goes on inside the world of Islam. Ever see

    10. Re:Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Yes we can see how much courage you have in your convictions when you post an AC.

  30. Home Office in Internet propaganda war by David+Gerard · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Home Office counter-terrorism experts intend to exploit nu meeja websites to "channel messages through volunteers in Internet forums" as part of a campaign to "taint the al-Qaeda(tm) brand," according to a document accidentally posted to Wikipedia this morning.

    "We understand that people on Internet forums have no experience whatsoever of participants paid to advocate a position or product," says the report. "A single image macro exchange of 'U R TERRIST' 'NO U' 'O RLY?' 'SRSLY' could save countless lost souls."

    The unit is also targeting the BBC and other online news outlets. The main obstacle appears to lie in writing messages stupid enough to pass for genuine reader comments. "Some of our top fake news writers have burnt out their brains on the task and now sit shaking and gibbering about real life being worse than any parody. And house prices."

    Other work includes faked reports of al-Quaeda branded Zunes on Gizmodo, suitably on-message mouseover popups on XKCD and photomanipulations of Osama bin Laden as Pedobear on 4chan.

    The initiative was spearheaded by a Home Office civil servant asked to account for the number of work hours he seemed to be spending on Internet message boards. His latest proposal is to fight al-Qaeda on MP3, BitTorrent and pornographic websites. "I've bought a new 500 gigabyte USB portable disk drive on expenses to store this important confidential data," he said.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  31. Integration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe if the UK, and Europe in general, had better integration policies towards Muslims, they wouldn't feel threatened by them.

    American Muslims are not disenfranchised from their society, and they are well integrated. American Muslims are overwhelmingly professionals--doctors, lawyers, engineers--and have even entered mainstream American culture, like the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour that was broadcasted on Comedy Central or the Daily Show correspondant Aasif Mandvi. This type of thing simply doesn't occur in Europe.

    1. Re:Integration by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      OK, first off there's two kids of Muslims in the USA, the Nation of Islam/5 percenters which are to Islam as the Mormons are to Christianity (really, their Allah was born in the early 1900s in Detroit) and immigrant Muslims, you can't mix the two.

      How are the latter well integrated? The USA are the one place where most people think of them the strongest as linked to terrorism, whereas in Europe they're more like our own Mexicans.

      Here, have a reality check

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    2. Re:Integration by EvilToiletPaper · · Score: 1

      Asif Mandvi was born in India, far more liberal and secular than the middle eastern societies. Plus he's not a fundamentalist muslim.
      I've seen many episodes of the daily show where he's making fun of Islamic jihadists.

      Nobody disenfranchises muslims in any country I know of. This is simply a myth invented by fundamentalist muslims who simply cannot stand people who think and act differently from them. There are a lot of immigrants of other religions in Europe e.g. hindus, buddhists, confuscianists or even atheists and they are doing pretty well in that society. Heck, some of them are even amongst the richest people in Europe : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshmi_Mittal

      The whole 'muslim opression' is an invention by their paedophilic clergy to keep their own positions intact. Take a look at the headlines and you'll see that this religions is at loggerheads with almost every other religion : Fighting christianity in the west, judaism in the middle-east, hinduism in the east, even buddhists in afghanistan and atheists in china.

      If you're at war with the rest of the world, I think it's time to re-evaluate your religion .

  32. No it wouldn't by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
    They are conservative in the context of their own cultures. You (presumably American) may well not realise, this, but as a country of 300 million out of 7 billion, worldwide your cultural views are a small minority. I like many things about the US, have worked there, and have worked for years for US companies in the UK, but I am very English, and the cultural differences between me and most North Americans are huge. This does not make me a radical. It makes me a moderate, centre left Englishman who wants to preserve the traditional culture of his country.

    Which, btw, includes allowing in immigrant groups and letting them gradually assimilate. We did it with the European Jews, the Chinese, the West Indians, the Indians, the Pakistanis, and now others from other Muslim countries.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:No it wouldn't by tjstork · · Score: 1

      You (presumably American) may well not realise, this, but as a country of 300 million out of 7 billion, worldwide your cultural views are a small minority.

      Yeah, but, when one of those other 7 billion people come to the USA, then, they are radicals if they do not act like Americans.

      Which, btw, includes allowing in immigrant groups and letting them gradually assimilate. We did it with the European Jews, the Chinese, the West Indians, the Indians, the Pakistanis, and now others from other Muslim countries.

      I think the European model of immigration and assimilation stinks and I prefer the American melting pot model. It makes for a cohesive society. The American model might be harsher in the short term but in the end everyone winds up being happier because they are actually fully engaged in society.

      nd the cultural differences between me and most North Americans are huge. This does not make me a radical. It makes me a moderate, centre left Englishman who wants to preserve the traditional culture of his country.

      And that, in America would make you a radical. In America you are expected to participate fully in American culture first, and show that you can live by its rules. Then, after that, you can start moving the whole thing your way. But you have to be a good member of the team first, before you can start calling other people's plays.

      --
      This is my sig.
  33. As long as they don't break Google.... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    We've seen religious manipulation of Google before. Years back, the scientologists created the world's largest website to flood the search engine's results and prevent people from seeing all the references to the god "Xenu" and the cult's historically criminal behavior at the top of websearches on Scientology. Technologically, it was a fascinating effort: Google apparently had to stop scanning it and retool in order to handle sites that large.

    1. Re:As long as they don't break Google.... by Teun · · Score: 1
      However much wrongdoing can be attributed to followers of various faiths, using the description of 'religion' in the same sentence as Scientology is an insult to the various religions.

      As this site can testify the evil of Scientology is in a class of it's own.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    2. Re:As long as they don't break Google.... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Oh, my goodness. You don't remember the Jonestown massacre, Charlie Manson, or the Moonies, do you? Or Peter Popov, the faith healer fraud exposed by James Randi? Or the Balkan war?

      If we reach back a bit before liviing memory, we have the Crusades and the Inquisition merely in Christianity's history. The Scientologists have done _nothing_ new compared to these incidents.

  34. Nyah, you're just jealous... by denzacar · · Score: 1

    That UK government isn't sponsoring a friendlier image of Cthulhu.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  35. Manipulating? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, now I get it. It's just another propaganda office, like back at the time of commies.
    Somebody once said: 'The only difference between our propaganda and your propaganda is that you believe your propaganda."

  36. Vote /against/ Labour by Morosoph · · Score: 1

    Where I live (Cambridge), voting Tory could easily let the Labour candidate back in. Furthermore, our MP is very strong on civil liberties. Imperfect, to be sure (I disagree with the utilitarian strain of liberalism that leads to such things as the smoking ban), but unlikely to be easily improved upon, even if the Tory did get in, since it would be difficult to beat a law scholar who care about civil liberties in efficacy.

    Apart from the special case of Cambridge, that Lib Dems are typically strong on civil liberties must mean that if this is an issue of importance for you, you should be willing to hold your nose to vote for them if it's appropriate in your constituency. Of course, the same reasoning applies in reverse to those places where the Lib Dems are weaker than the Tories.

    There is, however an upper limit on the vote available to the Tories: some people feel that they simply cannot vote for them. Accordingly where the support for Lib Dems and Tories are similar, a vote for the Lib Dems will be more likely to succeed. Realistically speaking, intent to vote Conservative is felt by borderline LD/Labour voters, so that they shrink from voting Lib Dem in order to 'keep the Tories out'.

    1. Re:Vote /against/ Labour by mrphoton · · Score: 1

      Yep all correct stuff, I can see no holes in your logic. And as you say there are some labour MPs who do back civil liberties. Diane Abbott is one, although I do not like a lot of what she says. The speech she gave in parliament when they were discussing detaining people for 90-days with out charge was fantastic. (can not find youtube link) If I lived in Henley I would consider voting for _her_. (i.e. not her party)

    2. Re:Vote /against/ Labour by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      There is no party in the UK which both stands a good chance of winning the next election and would make a good government. Fortunately, it's looking increasingly like there is no party that stands a good chance of winning the next election at all, so we may end up with a coalition in 2010. I'm certainly hoping for this outcome; it seems the only way of injecting a little sanity back into the political system.

      I'll probably vote for Plaid Cymru. My Labour MP is a waste of space, while my Plaid MEP is an active member of the FFII and in the last assembly elections they were proposing radical ideas like putting a doctor in charge of the NHS. When the Welsh nationalists seem like the best choice, there's something deeply wrong with the other options.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:Vote /against/ Labour by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Hope you're up on your Welsh, because those arrogant pricks are too stupid to speak a perfectly good language that's spoken by orders of magnitude more people, forcing British taxpayers to subsidize ludicrous translations of roadsigns, government documents, and translators in the Welsh assembly for their benefit.

  37. Islam is for mindless faggots; Mohammed is a bitch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck Islam.

    Islam: because beating women and mutilating their genitals in the name of purity is fun!

  38. Sounds like a plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sounds like a great idea.
    I expect 4chan to deliver appropriate backlash?

  39. I imagine I'll pass, thanks. by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    Imagine there's no countries.
    It isn't hard to do.
    Nothing to kill or die for,
    And no religion too.
    Imagine all the people,
    Living life in peace.

    I can't be the only who has heard that entire song and thought....

    How utterly boring.

    Some folks may be fine being cows nonchalantly grazing in the meadows, but as for me, I prefer the challenges and conflicts in life, in overcoming them, and advancing.

    A neutered, tepid world is all Lennon offers us in that song. It's a secular version of some cloudy heaven with lame harps and all those dead relatives you didn't like in life. I don't have to love war to think the vision sucks.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    1. Re:I imagine I'll pass, thanks. by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      I can't be the only who has heard that entire song and thought....

      No, you're not the only one. Every time they play that song on the radio I wonder if the people humming and singing along have actually thought out what it means. But for some people conflict and violence are apparently such supreme evil, such Great Shaitans, that we must rid ourselves of them at all costs.

      Onwards into Leto's (nee Lennon) Peace!

    2. Re:I imagine I'll pass, thanks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I sympathize with verses 1 and 2 of that song; as far as I can tell, religion and nationalism do more harm than good, and aren't interesting enough in themselves to merit preservation in spite of their destructive natures. On the other hand, property rights DO demonstrably lead to societal advancement, most likely in excess of their costs, so I can't go the whole way with ol' Lennon.

      To wit, I'd much rather spend my time digging into science, raising my kids, and building things than squabbling over 95% of the stupid labels we humans have *invented* to fight over.

  40. To reiterate an old joke about Khomeni by russotto · · Score: 1

    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would like to thank the British for their support on behalf of the "Pro-Western Islamic groups".

  41. Of course.. by TrebleJunkie · · Score: 1

    ... because what the Internet needs, above all, is more religion.

    Idiots.

    --

    Ed R.Zahurak

    You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.

  42. Can the rest of us have our planet back? by turgid · · Score: 1

    Marcus Brigstock said it best.

    The Now Show rules!

    1. Re:Can the rest of us have our planet back? by Huff · · Score: 1

      I have this recording on mp3 on my phone. Gotten quite a few laughs when I have played it from people who otherwise would not have come across it and even got some Now Show listeners in the process. :-D
      N

  43. Want to boost your rankings!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We can increase your rankings in all the most used search engines, including ones you've never heard of before! We'll analyze your keywords and wave magic wands for the low price of $795! We can even push religious extremists down in rankings below yours. Please go to www.anotherrankingbiz.com

  44. Do radical muslim org recruit from the internet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do radical muslim org recruit from the internet? even if yes, how much percentage?
    Is it worth spending time on changing things on the internet whereas the actual battle against these radical org has to be fought on ground to prevent corruption of muslim youth's mind?

  45. Nice by apaskov · · Score: 1

    Nice post. Can I use it in my bog? http://www.go-to-canada.com/gen_joboffers.htm

  46. Pro-West Islamic Groups To Game Google ? by Igarden2 · · Score: 1

    Pro-West Islamic Groups To Game Google
    I wonder who will be gaming whom...

    --
    Normally I ascribe all life to intelligent design, but in your case I'll make an exception.
  47. Perception is reality? by Xiver · · Score: 1

    So, to combat radical Islamic practices they are going to flood google, so that searches don't return as much radical content? It looks more like a shell game than actually trying to combat radical Islamic elements.

    --
    10: PRINT "Everything old is new again."
    20: GOTO 10
  48. Training Islamic groups... by MoxFulder · · Score: 1

    ... to use the Internet for propaganda purposes?

    Well, there's no way THAT could every backfire :-)

    Just like we learned in the 1980s, arming Islamist against the Soviet invaders of Afghanistan turned out so well in the long term, as did promoting the Islamist Hamas against the nationalist PLO. That worked out great for Israel, huh?

    1. Re:Training Islamic groups... by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      Not every Islamic group is violent and repressive. If you even read the summary, you'd know it refers to "pro-west" Islamic groups.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
    2. Re:Training Islamic groups... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not every Islamic group is violent and repressive.

      Are you reffering to those islamic groups who wish for islamization through peaceful "outnumbering" of other communities in the long term? (rather than "converting" them on the spot)

      Just to be honest I have to say that the results will not be different. When Islamics get majority in a democracy the radicals will take over anyway and byebye democracy, tolerance and peace - Look at libanon now and get a idea of what I mean.

    3. Re:Training Islamic groups... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you reffering to those islamic groups who wish for islamization through peaceful "outnumbering" of other communities in the long term? (rather than "converting" them on the spot)

      They can try. In a free country, they are free to do so, as long as they don't use violence. They just won't be successful, and seeing how they are non-violent, won't be violent.

    4. Re:Training Islamic groups... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A short list of places where they were succesful recently in outnumbering and started pushing out other confessions by violence:
      Lebanon - Bosnia - Kossovo - FYROM - IRAQ - Egypt - Somalia - Congo

      Coming soon:
      Belgium (south + Brussels) - France - UK

      Frankly if you consider the loss of your freedom of speech as a possible outcome of "democracy" it means you don't really deserve it.

    5. Re:Training Islamic groups... by spazdor · · Score: 1

      Remember when other Islamic groups were pro-West, right up until they weren't?

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    6. Re:Training Islamic groups... by wealthychef · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying I think the plan will work, just that not all Islamic groups are violent and hateful.

      --
      Currently hooked on AMP
  49. Re:Sharia Courts nothing to worry about. by XchristX · · Score: 1

    Not as bad as it sounds http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm as you can see other religions can also pass judgements upon small non-criminal sectors of the law meanwhile all criminal matters are reserved for the UK's state courts.

    Not the same thing. While Jewish law and Islamic law may have some nominal similarities, the main difference is that Jewish law only applies to Jews, not gentiles, whereas Islamic Sharia Law is a strategy created specifically to oppress non-Muslims in Islamic land quite brutally.

    Issues with Jewish courts are best left within the Jewish community for the orthodox and reformist Jews to hash out. It doesn't affect any of the rest of us per se.

    --
    l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
  50. This will come back to haunt us. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You mean like when we trained the "Good Muslims" to take on the Soviets in Afghanistan? When we gave the "Good Iraqis" chemical weapons to used against Iran? When we prop up the "Good Saudis" in the hopes the oil will keep flowing? If there is something the Middle East and Muslim World has taught us over and over again, is that these alliances of convenience will come back to bite us in the ass, usually in a massively magnified manner. We teach them to "Game the Google" now, it is only a matter of time before this technology is used to ensure radical points of view are the first things that Muslims see, or that adwords and other financial benefits go right into terrorist pockets. You think that one of these "good" muslims isn't going to turn over all he learns when some radical agent offers him more money than he has ever seen in his lifetime, or threatens to kill his family back in Durkastan?

  51. Why are there any Muslims in Britain anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have no idea why we have any Muslims in Britain, let alone enough to cause a problem. I read the other day that after 9/11, the Labour government actually DOUBLED the number of Muslims in Britain through immigration.

    The British people have always rejected second and third world immigration, but after Blair was elected they basically took anyone in, regardless of their story.

    They didn't mention this in their manifesto. So the question is, why are they trying to destroy Britain? Well, one possible answer is that they are importing voters, because sure as hell nobody else will vote for them.

    I for one am sick of seeing Islamic headscarves on the streets of my town, when ten years ago I saw none. I will be voting for any party offering to repatriate them.

  52. The real issue at hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the real interesting part of this article is how Western powers actually attempt to control content on the Internet. The fact that an office of the British government is "teaching" others demonstrates that they themselves have knowledge of this and are likely doing it already.

    Sure, it is supposedly just search engine optimization, but who knows what other techniques they employ.

    I'd bet that the disproportionate amount of pro-Western propaganda on the Internet is part of the reason why governments like China, etc. also filter their content.

  53. when nobody has religion by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    everybody has religion

    asking for the end of ideological conflict is basically asking for mastery by one ideology. in a way, tha tsong is the ultimate fascist paean

    no, i'd rather prefer the constant ideological warfare, then the enforced view of one ideology

    and no, there's no such thing as no ideology. as long as human beings have:

    1. free rights
    2. a thinking mind

    there will be ideology, and there will be conflict, and it will get violent at times

    this is the status quo of being in human society. get used to it

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  54. Re:Sharia Courts nothing to worry about. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

    You are missing the point. The Arbitration Act only allows Sharia courts, Jewish courts, or some form of secular arbitration, to apply if both parties agree to it. If you are a non-muslim and you consent to have your case judged according to Sharia law then you get what you deserve for crass stupidity.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  55. UK freedoms.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a short introduction to Koran and the first lines are about the UK

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/025558.php

  56. Re:Sharia Courts nothing to worry about. by XchristX · · Score: 1

    You are missing the point. The Arbitration Act only allows Sharia courts, Jewish courts, or some form of secular arbitration, to apply if both parties agree to it. If you are a non-muslim and you consent to have your case judged according to Sharia law then you get what you deserve for crass stupidity.

    You're not seeing the bigger picture. This whole voluntary Sharia Law thing is just a wedge to be used to muscle in more Sharia law, eventually culminating in an ever-expanding Islamic ghetto in the UK where Islamic law abrogates British law. It has happened countless times in other countries and at other times.

    People who immigrate to other countries should conform to the laws of that country, not bring their backward cultural and religious baggage with them. It's just the rank arrogance of the Islamic leadership and aggressive collectivist ethnocentrism of the Muslim world that makes them do this.

    Try being an immigrant in the UAE and claiming that you want to follow secular laws instead of their Islamic Sharia+Feudal monarchy and your hand will be cut off.

    --
    l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
  57. 1933 version: by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    "Is fascism such a big issue?

    Many more people die from heart attacks and railroad accidents each year. Why the big fuss over fascism?"

    you are dealing with ideology, with human beings, not nameless faceless statistics or uncontrollable events like lightning strikes or shark attacks

    as such, you pay attention to people who clearly state their goals and then clearly go about executing their goals

    and if you are paying attention to what a group like al qaeda wants, you better believe its a big issue

    because when it comes to human intent and human action, we are talking about self-fulfilling prophecy: the more they succeed, the more they try, and the more followers they get. its emergent phenomena, not natural phenomena

    if you understood exactly what you are dealing with here, you would understand exaclty how dangerous and potent the ideology behind terrorism really is

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  58. Opening a rational dialog? by fugue · · Score: 1

    Interesting idea. Forget the Islamic extremists--we in the USA (and probably GB as well?) have a culture of fear and a knee-jerk reaction to any mention of Islam, and reducing that might be a good thing. It is rare that anything good comes out of a name that inspires terror, whether or not the terror is justified.

    Of course, making it illegal to criticise religion is just braindead. My ideal would be to have only negative messages about all faith--if you can't prove it, be skeptical! But opening a coherent, rational dialog is the first step. Killing off kneejerk reactions is the zeroth step, I guess?

    --
    "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."
  59. Factual by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are pretty much spot on. This is pretty much true of any religion. When you think of Christians you think of the fundamentalists too. These people will tell you of their plans right to your face.
     

  60. Re:Sharia Courts nothing to worry about. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Uh, what? The Arbitration Act was passed in 1996 and has not been the used as a wedge 'to muscle in more Sharia law', nor to muscle in more Jewish law, nor any other kind of law. It allows people to bypass the judicial system and go to less-expensive legally-binding arbitration with the arbiter decided by both parties. There is nothing specific to the Sharia law in the act, nor to any other kind of arbitration. It applies only to civil suits, not to criminal law, and applies only if both parties are willing. It is used far more by non-muslims than by muslims, since it saves a great deal of expense.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  61. +5 imformative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod up

  62. Definition of God by rml1997 · · Score: 1

    I'm writing a book on social provocation amongst other things. I personally use the word god a lot like UFO. By definition if I cannot identify a flying object, it is a UFO. Once it is identified, it is not a UFO any more. Using the definition of god as a system beyond our scientific grasp of reality, then I believe in god. A discussion of god providing further clarity and definition can then begin and change with the advancement of science. As a scientist and engineer, a common basic understanding between parties is necessary to prevent non-constructive argument. I believe this has led to a lot of the difficulties in the past, creating contradictory views. Stop it please.

  63. Futile Effort by anonymousNR · · Score: 1

    Without dealing with what fundamentally enables a human being to act, these kind of efforts are really futile.
    My example may be bad, but this is slashdot so here it goes:

    Alcohol and Health drinks are equally available and information about both is equally available, however what enables a human being to choose is something that gets ignored all the time.

    Giving only one view of anything will not guarantee that other view will not be searched for, asked about or worse imagined.

    --
    -- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle
  64. Organised religion has it all wrong anyway ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hallowed are the Ori.

  65. !Racist by cybernanga · · Score: 1

    How about Mark 7:25-30 where Jesus is being racist towards a woman who comes to seek his help? Not as bad as pedophilia but still...

    He wasn't being racist!

    She wanted Him to cast out a demon from her daughter. The text then mentions that she was Greek.

    His response was basically, "Let the kids eat first, it's not right to take their food and throw it to the dogs."

    She replied that even dogs eat the crumbs under the kids table.

    He said "Touche! and for that, your daughter is well, off you go"

    How on earth is that racist?

    --
    www.Buy-Proxy.com - A "buyer-driven" global marketplace.
  66. whatcouldpossiblygowrong by codeButcher · · Score: 1

    I'm quite SURE they'll remain "pro-west" evermore. </sarcasm>

    I mean, I am a westerner since birth, and not even I am pro-west.

    --
    Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
  67. Jesus as Role Model by superyooser · · Score: 2, Insightful

    By "fulfilling the law" basically Jesus was claiming that he was the messiah that was referenced heavily in the law (which refers to the old testament).

    You are right, but Jesus fulfilled Scripture in other ways too. I'm going to take a "rabbi trail" here... In Judaism, to "fulfill" something means to interpret it correctly. This is what Jesus did through the way He lived His life. He full-filled it not only by keeping the commands of the law, but by filling it full of its true meaning.

    Moreover, that He fulfilled the law does not mean that we, His followers , are to ignore the law's commandments, which are "holy, just, and good" (Romans 7:12).

    For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

    Shows that Christians are not bound by the Old Testament laws because Jesus fulfilled them.

    Look at what Paul is saying. It's not that keeping the law makes sin your master; rather, legalistic observance of G-d's commands without having understood and received His grace is what makes sin your master.

    It should be noted that the ancient Greek language did not have a word for "legalism." There was only this word (in Rom. 6:14, nomon), which is always simplistically rendered as "law" in English.

    Look at the context, using another version (CJB):

    14 For sin will not have authority over you; because you are not under legalism but under grace. 15 Therefore, what conclusion should we reach? "Let's go on sinning, because we're not under legalism but under grace"? Heaven forbid! 16 Don't you know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, then, of the one whom you are obeying, you are slaves - whether of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to being made righteous? 17 By G-d's grace, you, who were once slaves to sin, obeyed from your heart the pattern of teaching to which you were exposed; 18 and after you had been set free from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness. 19 (I am using popular language because your human nature is so weak.) For just as you used to offer your various parts as slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led to more lawlessness; so now offer your various parts as slaves to righteousness, which leads to being made holy, set apart for G-d.

    Is Paul saying that lawlessness is bad, but keeping the law is also bad? Sounds like a lose/lose situation for humanity. But no; Paul professes, "we confirm/uphold/establish (KJV) the law" (Rom. 3:31) But only a keeping of the law that is grounded in a relationship of trusting faithfulness in G-d and His grace for us. Christians nearly always miss this distinction.

    There are several references to where Jesus goes opposes society's norm such as Mark 2:23-28 where Jesus plucked grain on the Sabbath.

    He did what was "unlawful" regarding the Sabbath only according to the Pharisaic rabbinical laws. He did not violate G-d's law concerning the Sabbath. He simply held to a less burdensome practice of keeping of Shabbat.

    And another instance where he saved a woman from stoning because of adultery*

    Here, Jesus was, in fact, going strictly by the Book (Deuteronomy 17):

    2 "If there is found among you, within any of your gates [in any city] that the L-RD your G-d gives you, a man or woman who does what the L-RD your G-d sees as wicked, ... 4 and it is told to you, or you hear about it; then you are to investigate the matter diligently. If it is true, if it is confirmed that such detestable things are being done in Isra'el; 5 then you are to bring the man or woman who has done this wicked thing t

  68. This is crazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is like the government paying for a company's advertising. It's a waste of tax-payers money.

  69. Bog, Can, or Tati? by aoheno · · Score: 1

    Heh - a British 'bog' is an American 'can' is an Indian 'tati'.

    --
    Her lips were softer than a duck's bill, but her quacks ...
  70. craziness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its amazing how much money the uk government wastes.

    and appeasement of this religion is ridiculous. white washing the awfulness of an ideology should not be a government function. luckily google is set up perfectly to combat such gaming of the system