Microsoft Extends Xbox 360 Warranty To E74 Errors

Last month we discussed reports that Xbox 360 consoles were experiencing an increased number of "E74" errors. Now, Microsoft has announced that they're extending the three-year warranty originally designated for "general hardware failures" (read: Red Ring of Death) to include E74 repairs as well. From the support page post: "... we are aware that a very small percentage of our customers have reported receiving an error that displays 'E74' on their screen. After investigating the issue, we have determined that the E74 error message can indicate the general hardware failure that is associated with three flashing red lights error on the console. ... Microsoft will refund to customers the amount paid for an out of warranty repair due to a general hardware failure associated with the E74 error message."

Comments

Pinto of console

[rarel]

This has got to be the Ford Pinto of consoles. I can't believe people are still spending their hard-earned cash on such a badly designed piece of go-se.

It's one thing to understand your console may be bricked at some point during its lifetime, but when you know it will, and it could very much be when you open the box...

Warranty or not, I don't get it. The whole 360 mess is a shame of epic proportions.

Re:Pinto of console

[Renraku]

Most of my friends are 360 owners. 10, maybe 15 people, in person.

I'm pretty sure that every single one of them, with the exception of one of of them, have had to send their 360's back for repairs.

Multiple times.

The people I know that have PS3s (about 7) have never had to send their system in for repair. Nor have the people that own Wii's (about 5).

Microsoft may have the most market penetration, but I have to wonder how much its costing them to replace 80% of the original 360's with new hardware.

Re:Pinto of console

[RogueyWon]

The reason why people are still buying 360s is because it has the games. Of the three consoles, the 360 has, for the moment, the best all round coverage of genres and styles to satisfy most people who consider themselves to be gamers. The PS3 is slowly making up lost ground here, with a few genuinely excellent exclusives like Valkyria Chronicles, but right now, it has no racing game to match Forza 2, no Western RPGs to match Mass Effect and no Japanese RPGs to match Lost Odyssey. Gran Turismo 5 and Final Fantasy XIII will probably go some way to closing those gaps, but neither is due for imminent release.

But yes, the hardware situation is pretty dire. My 360 red-ringed on me the other week, just outside of the 3 year warrenty. I didn't make a big fuss out of this, as I'd been considering buying an Elite anyway. But what really did frustrate me is how, for a console known for catastrophic rates of hardware failure, the process of transferring all of your content to a new console is still an absolute pain in the backside. You either send off... via *snail mail* to Microsoft for a transfer kit, or you transfer your Xbox Live account manually, redownload your XBLA games via the most hideous, user-unfriendly interface imaginable and then try to transfer your saves by swapping back and forward between hard disks and using a memory card. Except that some games have restrictions on their saves that don't let them be moved to a memory card (presumably to prevent people from cheating in *single player games* by downloading saves off the net).

A couple of changes are badly needed here - first, a simple, one-button "redownload all of my previously purchased content" option on the Xbox Live interface. Second, a complete lifting on any restrictions regarding the copying and transfer of save games. Oh, and while you're at it MS, add an online form for requesting the free transfer kits. Because they way you do it at the moment, one might almost get the impression that you were actively trying to discourage people from sending off for them.

Re:Pinto of console

[BikeHelmet]

Replacing ~8 million consoles? I have no idea how much that cost! =P Can anyone here do the math?

Re:Pinto of console

[Bert64]

You get screwed by buying a flakey console that has died on you outside of warranty, and you punish the company that screwed you over by... buying another console?

Get a third party RROD fix kit and see if that works, chip the box at the same time so you can make backups of your games in case the machine decides to shred them (as some have)... And complain, no company who sells you sub standard products should be rewarded with another purchase to replace the original failed product.

Re:Pinto of console

[noundi]

I think we're missing a pretty important factor: production cost.

Re:Pinto of console

[RogueyWon]

Meh, the original had seen a lot of use and, as I say, I'd been pretty close to deciding to go for an Elite anyway. The 3 years warrenty on the new one should comfortably carry me over into the next console generation.

Back in the last generation, I had 2 Gamecubes die on me (one just suddenly refused to go past the initial splash screen, the other had that little flippy-lid-thingy torn off by an overenthusiastic 8 year old who was visiting over Christmas). Having to replace dead consoles isn't actually a new or uncommon experience.

The console I live in dread of any failure on is my PS3. This is a US 60 gig model which I imported to the UK pretty soon after they launched. As an early model, this has full PS2 back compatibility, which I make extensive use of to play my imported US PS2 games. As far as I'm aware, these are now pretty much irreplacable.

Re:Pinto of console

[DrScotsman]

Microsoft may have the most market penetration...

Under what definition of 'market penetration' possibly puts the Xbox 360 above the Wii? I mean I think more sales, the faster rate of sales, and just about every other statistic (your gran has one) is a bit more real evidence than the sample size that is your friends.

Re:Pinto of console

[V50]

I own all three consoles, and, interestingly, only my Wii has had to be sent in for repair. My PS3 had a small issue with filesystem corruption, but that was easily fixed with the recovery menu (with no data loss, I may add.)

Oddly enough, my 360 (green Halo 3 edition) has been the only system of mine to never have had a problem. Certainly, my experience is an exception though, I know far more people who have had their 360s RROD than anything else.

Actually, I'm the only person I know who has ever had a problem with their Wii. The laser got stuck and wouldn't go up all the way. It could only read Gamecube discs, and Wii games up until the laser had to move.

To be fair, Microsoft has been reasonably good about fixing 360s, and it's cost them quite a bit. I do wonder if MS partially anticipated this, and accepted it in order to get the 360 out a year early.

Re:Pinto of console

[Xest]

I know there's probably not much point saying this to you seeing as you've decided to troll about the console without seeming to have actually ever owned one, but when it comes to I find it's still the better console for the games I like (I have a Wii and also a PS3 as well now - I finally caved despite the lack of price drop).

When repairs are free and fast I don't see the big deal, yeah we shouldn't have to be without our consoles for a couple of days, but it's still the console I find that I keep going back to regardless and I figured I'd rather be without a console I enjoy for a few days now and then but keep playing it a ton when I do have it than it is to have something like the Wii sat gathering dust because you can only play so many party games, and a lot of the other games simply aren't as good on the Wii (FPS games, arcade games for example).

The PS3 is a more solid piece of hardware for sure, but I've only had it a few months now and have long completed all the games I wanted to play on it (MGS4 etc.). The PS3 would have more longevity for me if I didn't also have a 360 because of the cross-platform games, but I'd rather buy them on the 360 due to often getting the option of better DLC, getting Live integration and achievements etc.

Bitch all you want about the fact the console fails, the fact it inconveniences you for maybe a few days in 2 to 3 years is really not a big deal when it keeps you coming back the rest of the time.

It's for this reason that Microsoft will continue to keep increasing it's lead on the PS3 at least.

FWIW, I've had my 360 since 2006, prior to the v2 consoles I had to get mine replaced due to the RROD issue 3 times, but here in the UK it was in statutory warranty each time so I could just return it to the shop, get it replaced there and then and come home with a brand new console with fresh new controllers. I've not had to get a replacement since the v2 consoles and I've not even heard of this E74 error so I'd wage a bet the majority of problems are resolved now judging from personal experience and that of friends with 360s. It was a pain having to get the licenses for my DLC transferred back then but that's a process you can do now automatically (meaning you can move content to a different console now if you wish). When I did have to phone up though I was given 3200 MS points each time which was nice. Effectively the failure left me with a net gain when the only inconvenience was a 10 minute journey to the retailer for a swap over and a quick phone call to an MS free phone number in the worst case. In all honesty, personally, and I mean personally, due to the experience I've had I'm not even sure I'd have been happier if my consoles hadn't failed - I'd have worn controllers and would be down about £80 worth of Microsoft points.

I'm not totally defending the failures and I realise in other countries where consumer laws are less helpful meaning you actually have to send the console away it must be more of a pain but I really find the hardware failures a relatively minor fault when you look at it objectively. I've not found having downtime with the console any worse than say paying for an MMO subscription and having the servers bugger up for a few days (or weeks in the case of the old European Dark Age of Camelot servers), I've also not found it any worse than having to deal with crippling DRM on PC games which has prevented me playing some of them despite being legitimately purchased when I've wanted to.

The thing is, despite the failures, the 360 is still the best console for many. It doesn't have the following of the Wii but it still has a hefty userbase and is increasing it's lead week on week on the PS3 quite well right now. For me, right now, the 360 and the DS are definitely my two favourite gaming systems.

Re:Pinto of console

[Spazztastic]

I have no friends:

:(

Re:Pinto of console

[larry bagina]

at this point, they may be making a slight profit on the 360, but they originally sold it at a loss. So you could estimate it costs them the retail price (which varies due 10 or so different configurations).

Re:Pinto of console

[BenBenBen]

The plural of anecdote isn't data, despite this thread setting out to prove otherwise - but between myself and 2 friends I'm aware of 6 or 7 xboxen that haven't failed once, the oldest of which dates back to about 2 months after launch. I've also been gaming since I were a nipper and other than vaguely missing Gran Turismo I've never felt the need to run out and buy a PS3 or wii. Keeping GTA PS-exclusive would probably have got me buying one though.

Re:Pinto of console

[MemoryDragon]

Me neither, but at least I can play with my Wii...

Re:Pinto of console

[arkhan_jg]

And write off the investment in games he's already made? In many cases, that investment is significantly higher than the cost of the console itself.

And yes, the 360 is pretty shoddy hardware, especially the cooling design, but at least it's cheap. I could buy a new 360 every single year, and it would still work out cheaper than the money I used to spend on my gaming PC keeping it up to date.

A friend of mine had graphical glitches on his original gen before it finally red ringed out of warranty - he's tried the 3rd party xclamp kits, plus reheating to remelt the solder, but it's only a partial repair - he's had to resort to running the DVD drive outside the case and ziptying a 120mm fan directly on the GPU heatsink to stop it falling over.

Re:Pinto of console

[wisnoskij]

When my friend bought his the first 12 he got did not work out of the box.

Re:Pinto of console

[Threni]

What, it costs them hundreds of dollars to make each one? Why? What's the expensive bit? The power supply? CPU? Perhaps you're adding up the amount it cost to design and test the code and divvy that up amongst the number of units sold? (It would certainly make the first box sold very expensive).

Re:Pinto of console

[Xest]

"You're right I don't own one. And it's not because I don't want to. I'd love to get an Elite, honestly. I just won't buy one, because I refuse to pay for bad hardware."

That's fair enough if that argument is cited in a balanced context of not wanting other consoles. The problem is a lot of people cite bad hardware as a bigger issue than say a lack of games, which is silly. Bad hardware, when there's a proper replacement process in existence I feel is less of an issue than problems that plague the other gaming platforms (i.e. DRM on PCs, lack of longevity with the Wii, lack of games with the PS3). All systems have issues and I think this is probably one of the most minor due to the infrequency of it affecting the user when the rest of the time (which is by far the vast majority of the time) it's a good system.

I'd argue if you're going to ignore the 360 because of the infrequent (really, they are in the grand scheme of things) hardware issues then there's probably not a suitable gaming system out there for you at all because the others have equally large issues albeit in other areas.

The only other reason I suppose is if you have some kind of moral belief that bad hardware is a problem worth boycotting over because of the waste or so on that it causes which is in itself a fair point that I don't totally even disagree with.

Re:Pinto of console

[Theoboley]

This is correct. I bought my 60GB model just as the 80 came out, and it went tits up (Im one of the very few) It wouldnt read anything. The little bubble would look like it was trying, but nothing would load.

Long and short, i brought it back to walmart and wanted a replacement 60GB model, well... i had apparently bought the last one, with no new shipments of them in.

I settled for an 80GB model with Motorstorm at no extra cost. WINNAR!!!!

Re:Pinto of console

[RogueyWon]

Under other circumstances, I might have. But with the Elite now temptingly cheap (and the 20 gig HD size of the old one starting to feel painful) I honestly just decided that the cost of buying a new one was easily outweighed by the time and effort required to get a replacement. Back in my student days, when I had more free time and far less cash, I may have felt differently.

Re:Pinto of console

[Gizzmonic]

I'd argue if you're going to ignore the 360 because of the infrequent (really, they are in the grand scheme of things) hardware issues then there's probably not a suitable gaming system out there for you at all because the others have equally large issues albeit in other areas.

Like what other areas? The PS3 gets nearly every game that the 360 does, and it has a built-in Bluray player and a fine crop of exclusives. Yes, the graphics are marginally better on the 360 version most of the time. If you can tell without pathologically examining screenshots online, then get a 360. 360 does have better DLC for some titles, like Fallout 3 and GTA IV, but that's not enough for me.

I just can't bring myself to spend $300 on a system that I know will fail someday. I've owned everything from Atari 2600 to Playstation 3, including most of the SEGA, Nintendo, and Sony consoles, and I have NEVER had a console fail on me, besides the original Game Boy. I don't believe in rewarding poor design with my money, no matter how generous the warranty. One of my friends knows the thermal engineer for Xbox360. As soon as he got the mandate that the system had to be in stores by Christmas 2005, he quit and said "don't put my name on this." He didn't want his career ruined by the poor design.

Re:Pinto of console

[neomunk]

I had a problem with my Wii too (sounds like something I should be saying to my doctor, but I digress), the laser got dirty or something and stopped playing Super Smash Bros Brawl (because it's 2 layer, I think). After searching on the internet for likely causes I discovered that it's a fairly common problem. Well, it's what USED to be called a "fairly common" problem before the XBox360 redefined "fairly common" to mean "almost everyone".

Nintendo is good about fixing it though.

Re:Pinto of console

[EmperorKagato]

Do you have any idea how refurbishing works?

Re:Pinto of console

[Dr. Manhattan]

Bitch all you want about the fact the console fails, the fact it inconveniences you for maybe a few days in 2 to 3 years is really not a big deal when it keeps you coming back the rest of the time.

Well, Microsoft's never really competed on quality before. They just work on being the lowest-cost provider, and it's worked out pretty well. You might be right. For me, $200 is a bit more than I want to pay for something 'disposable', but there's no denying they've sold a bunch of 360s.

the 360 is... increasing it's lead week on week on the PS3 quite well right now

When you look at the actual sales slopes, and count the fact that a significant number of 360 sales are people buying a new console 'cause their old one died out of warranty or for issues that aren't covered by the warranty extension, that doesn't seem to be the case. The 360 has a significant head start, but it seems to basically be maintaining its lead rather than pulling further ahead.

Those replacement sales are good for MS, of course. Not so good for 360 users, though. But the business model seems to be working; we'll see if that's good for consumers down the road.

Re:Pinto of console

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know that heavy use == abuse (at least it shouldn't), but you do have a point.
I had my 360 for two years, in a cabinet (with spacers underneath so it could breathe, but no real air flow). Casual use, maybe 2-3 hour sessions 2-3 times a week.
Then I went & got Fallout 3 and COD4. Fried it in a month.

Re:Pinto of console

[TrekkieGod]

The 3 years warrenty on the new one should comfortably carry me over into the next console generation.

Personally, carrying me over into the next console generation isn't good enough. I want my systems to last until, at the very least, emulators are good enough to replace it. It's not like I'm going to stop playing the current games just because new ones come out.

Back in the last generation, I had 2 Gamecubes die on me...Having to replace dead console isn't actually a new or uncommon experience.

I've never had to replace a console. I still have my genesis in working condition. I have an old friend that still has the same Atari 2600 I used to play at his house when we were kids, and it's in perfect working condition. I do know multiple people who got the RROD with their xbox 360's, but the 360 really is the exception, not the rule.

That's not to say I think other consoles never break. I'm not even saying you shouldn't buy another one. If you have fun playing your 360 games, then the cost you'd pay for not playing those games anymore is greater than the cost you pay for replacing the console. I'm just saying failing consoles should be an extremely rare occurrence, and we really shouldn't just start accepting that as normal in the same way we used to accept that computers crashing 5 times a day was normal behavior back in the Windows 9x days.

Re:Pinto of console

[petermgreen]

This has got to be the Ford Pinto of consoles. I can't believe people are still spending their hard-earned cash on such a badly designed piece of go-se.
The thing is that the alternatives have thier problems too, the wii doesn't do HD and is generally targetting at kids/casual gamers. The PS3 is nice (I have one) but it's FAR more expensive than the xbox 360 (looking at game.co.uk one of the major retailers over here the base model 360 is less than half the price of the base model PS3)

So for the gamer who wants up to date 3D games like GTA4 and doesn't care about media center type features or any of the PS3 exclusive games the 360 looks pretty attractive.

Re:Pinto of console

[Cinder6]

I call troll.

I've had a 360 console since launch, and it runs perfectly to this day - never repaired.

Somehow, your anecdotal evidence is better than his? How about mine? Of the people I know, I'm the only one who hasn't had to send in their 360--and mine doesn't work perfectly, either, as the eject button is really flaky (I have a remote that I use to eject).

I bet that your friends neglect or abuse their consoles. If you look in the manual, it says that you aren't supposed to use the console for extended periods of time (which is something like 3 or 4 hours), set them on carpet, enclose them inside cabinets etc etc. Everyone knows these units heat up...mitigate it.

You call him troll, then accuse all his friends of being console abusers. And, I'm sorry, if playing a console for more than 4 hours at a time is overuse, then the 360 is a really embarrassing console. Especially when you consider the PS3 survived a sauna.

Re:Pinto of console

[teko_teko]

I have no friends:

:(

Perhaps you should join Twitter...

Re:Pinto of console

[scot4875]

Hmm, yeah, your one data point means that everyone reporting 360 issues must be trolling. Thanks for pointing that out to us.

You should have gotten that message to Microsoft sooner though -- before they allocated $3 billion in extended warranty repairs to resolve this fabricated non-issue.

--Jeremy

Re:Pinto of console

[Justtaint]

MS isn't sending new hardware, they send you back a refurbished machine. Its a lot cheaper to send out someone else's crappy machine than it is to send brand new hardware. Some people have reported getting back their exact same broken hardware, still broken (multiple times).

Re:Pinto of console

[WhiteWolf666]

My 360 RROD'd.

A good friend of mine's 360 RROD'd.

I don't live in a very crowded area, but the UPS store I dropped the 360 off recognized the shipping label at a glance. "Xbox 360, huh? I get 3-4 of those a day."

Neither me, nor my friend, play on our 360 very much. Mine got used perhaps 2 hours a month. Some months it went with no use whatsoever. I had it sitting on the top shelf of a nearly empty stereo rack, on metal perforated shelves, with no walls. Virtual no heat from other equipment, and kept in a cool, air conditioned environment.

Quite clearly, there was a manufacturing error, as I cannot imagine *anyone* using a 360 less than myself.

That being said, MS has been quite reasonable with the warranty extension; they did the right thing, didn't try and charge me, and got the console back to me on time.

Given what I have experienced with the 360, and the failure rates reported in the media, I'd say it is pretty difficult to argue that most users "neglect or abuse" their consoles. The only environment I could imagine that would be more suitable for my console would be to put it in an equipment rack through which I pumped cold air, but clearly thats an unreasonable expectation, and its not like I'm a heavy user of the console anyway.

*shrug* Just my 2 cents.

Re:Pinto of console

[enderjsv]

Don't forget, you can probably pick up a few extra bucks selling your 20G harddrive on ebay or craigslist. They don't go for much, but it's something.

Re:Pinto of console

[KDR_11k]

From what I can see the 360 has deeper coverage of the genres it has but many genres are missing completely. Or at least the games fail to point out that they are in a different genre because when I look at the store shelves it looks like they're all sports, racing, xPS and western RPGs with a few minor outliers that don't even make a dent, mostly due to a lack of quality (like the RTS genre which for some godforsaken reason pops up more and more frequently on consoles that only have analog sticks and NEVER works yet some idiot keeps signing off on these messes) and what is there can be had for cheaper on the PC (and cheaper here means <50€ compared to 70€ for the same damn game). Maybe I'm just approaching the system wrong but I'm still trying to find games worth buying, so far I've spent more on the hardware than the software.

Re:Pinto of console

[KDR_11k]

Did it make sense to go from the PC to the 360? From what I see the 360 offers almost exclusively PC games except at a higher price.

Re:Pinto of console

[inject_hotmail.com]

I agree with you. Any electronic device should be able to handle indefinite use without fear of borkage. Operating anything that generates heat inside a cabinet does cause premature death, though. A 360 is just a tiny PC...imagine stuffing a computer into a tiny box (the 360 skin), and closing off all the vents (the cabinet in which it resides)...eventually heat dissipation isn't sufficient to cool the components...and the RoHS lead-free solder points give out, and it's all over but the cryin'...unfortunately. MS knows this, so they write it in the manual that it can only be used for a few hours at a time.

Check out projectors. They have it in the warranty -- use it continuously for more than 8hrs, and the warranty is voided.

Welcome to yesterday's future.

Re:Pinto of console

[Darby]

I can't believe people are still spending their hard-earned cash on such a badly designed piece of go-se.

I have a friend at work who is even ostensibly anti-microsoft who sent his back twice. When it broke the third time he bought himself a brand new one and gave the busted one to a friend (once it returns from repair). The rest of our jaws dropped when he said that. He's usually pretty smart, so when he did something that fucking dumb we were stunned.

Re:Pinto of console

[inject_hotmail.com]

I don't disagree with you that MS skimped on the h/w quality. I was shocked when mine red ringed. Really, the unit should have a thermal sensor on sensitive parts so that it doesn't allow itself to overheat to the point of self-destruction. God, all CPUs in the last 5 years (or more) have had this feature, why not mobos and video cards?

You may have had some other problem besides overheating, perhaps an over-voltage? The power brick should smooth that out, but what if its power-smoothing abilities failed? It could have been bad caps too, which can die at any time.

Anyway, I agree 100% that MS did the right thing by extending the default warranty. My respect for them went up a bit...from around -100 to maybe -98.

Re:Pinto of console

[inject_hotmail.com]

Heh...funny remark, but I am pulling from a few more systems than just my own. I am aware of quite a few people that have 360s, and it seems the only people that have problems are the addicts that neglect their systems.

I'm not saying that this is the case every time. As I said, mine red ringed once. I know that MS made these things a cheaply as possible, so something has to give...I'm just saying that if people respected their consoles a little bit more, it would be less of a problem. There's no way MS can tell if you had your system in an enclosed area, or on a carpet when it overheated -- they can only tell that it did. They want to, surprisingly, make people happy, so they'll fix the borked units.

I think it's actually more of a case that MS makes such a killing off of game licensing, that if people stopped buying consoles (or more specifically, didn't replace broken ones), they would lose market share, and thus a large profit...it's just conjecture, but it makes sense to me.

Re:Pinto of console

[chuchmo]

I also own all three consoles. I've had a different experience with them, though.

I'm on my second Wii. The first (purchased on launch day) died after a month; apparently with WiiConnect24 on, the system overheated and damaged the video card. I was told I was the first in Canada to have this problem; it became more widespread a bit later. No problems since (though it hasn't seen much use lately).

The first 360 I purchased scratched disks. I returned this to the store immediately. The second eventually red-ringed (after owning it for about 8 or 9 months). I bought an elite while waiting for the second to be repaired; I haven't had a problem with it yet (after over a year and a half of owning it).

My PS3 (60GB, original hardware) hasn't had any problems, but I've only had it for less than a year. It also hasn't seen too much use.

The return process was interesting for both cases. My 360 died early enough in its lifespan that Microsoft was still providing the package to ship the console and paying for shipping. I heard that's no longer the case. It was returned to me just about on time with estimates (~3 weeks), along with 1 month of Xbox Live, which was a nice thought.
I really have to commend Nintendo on their replacement process, though. They gave me an option - ship it to them myself, and it'd be returned quicker, or they'd send a box + shipping label to get it replaced at no cost, but this would obviously take longer. I opted to ship it myself. They received it on Friday, Dec. 22, I received the new one, with all saved games and Virtual Console titles transferred to it, on Sunday, Dec. 24. Kudos to them for getting it back to me on a Sunday, on Christmas eve :)

Re:Pinto of console

[Xest]

"When you look at the actual sales slopes, and count the fact that a significant number of 360 sales are people buying a new console 'cause their old one died out of warranty or for issues that aren't covered by the warranty extension, that doesn't seem to be the case."

I'm not sure that's true. Microsoft gave a 3 year warranty for the original consoles and the new generation ones seem to be as stable as either the Wii or PS3. Most failures would've been replaced in warranty with the new gen stable consoles - mine certainly was. I had my 3 failures in the first 18 months and my new console has lasted me since then, my sister's boyfriend has had a similar experience whilst my other friends with 360s all only got them in the last 6 months to a year or so and so had the new versions from the outset and haven't seen any failures. It's only anecdotal personal experience but it does seem to be the case that if it was going to fail, it would've failed in it's 3 years and you'd have got a more stable system that wouldn't need replacing for free. If you look at the software sales figures the 360 is selling over twice as many retail games as the PS3 or Wii per console. That's a pretty high attach rate anyway, if a significant number of those console sales were indeed replacement systems people wouldn't be rebuying games as well meaning the actual retail game sales per owner (rather than per console) would go up drastically which seems unlikely when it's already so far ahead of the Wii and PS3 in retail software sales anyway.

"The 360 has a significant head start, but it seems to basically be maintaining its lead rather than pulling further ahead."

If you follow the NPD sales stats (or the ones presented from that at vgchartz.com you'll see the 360 is week after week outselling the PS3 worldwide by tens of thousands of units so it certainly is increasing it's lead. It's not gaining on the Wii though, the only time it outsold the Wii was at Halo 3 release week I believe, but that was a one off, the Wii has successfully outsold the 360 every other week since it's release. The PS3 was outselling the 360 about 6 months after it's release for a period of about 6 months but has since lost it's period of gain. This can be attributed mostly to the 360 price drop, as soon as that happened the 360 started increasing it's lead on the PS3 again rather than losing it's lead and has not faltered since. I believe this will only last until the PS3 also has a drastic price drop too however. The Wii seems to be staying ahead regardless of price - it's currently more expensive than the low and mid range XBox 360s although is of course cheaper than the PS3.

Re:Pinto of console

[badboy_tw2002]

How would they know their PS3s are broken if they don't turn them on?

Re:Pinto of console

[badboy_tw2002]

Yeah, I never ever ever ever had to blow on the cartridge of my NES to get it to work. Blow on it, put it under your tshirt and blow on it, put it back in the console, move it around a bit.

Perfection in consular format! Those were the freaking days man!

Re:Pinto of console

[inject_hotmail.com]

Anecdotal evidence is exactly my point. There's no way to know what is really going on without being the engineer of the system, or reverse-engineering the failure.

I didn't call dude a troll, I called what he said was a troll...very different things. And yeah, if his buddies continually have to return their systems for repair, something isn't right. Yes, I believe the engineering of the 360 isn't 100% to my standard of electronic devices, but knowing this, I act accordingly. I have run my 360 longer than the prescribed 'non-abusive' time limit...and if it breaks, I won't complain. I'll request repair, but won't expect it.

I see that the PS3 may be able to survive extreme conditions well, the only problem with their tests is that they didn't cycle it. Hot --> cold --> hot --> cold...that's way harder on electronics than constant temperature.

Anyway...point is the 360 is delicate, and should be treated as such. MS is standing behind them, cool. We all bought one, we all have to live with the quirks...I've always thought the 360 games were better, controls more refined/mature...I'll buy another if this one dies.

I'm sorry to hear about your flaky eject button, that's just annoying to work around.

Re:Pinto of console

[brkello]

Then your probably shouldn't buy any consoles. Consoles that use discs are going to fail a lot quicker than the old ones that used cartridges.

Re:Pinto of console

[crossmr]

I am called troll.

Thanks for labeling your post ahead of time, next time though make sure you get it right. The red ring issue is a serious enough problem that stories on it are pretty much everywhere. Your anecdotal "evidence" doesn't trump that.

Re:Pinto of console

[techess]

I didn't remember seeing a warning "only use for 3-4 hours" in the manual so I checked out the manual at the support.xbox.com http://download.microsoft.com/download/f/3/e/f3ebacb4-146e-431e-8c36-9407667f1213/Console_Ins_Manual.pdf

There are some guidelines to prevent Musculoskeletal Disorders in the Healthy Gaming Guide that suggest taking breaks, but I didn't see any recommendation to only play your console for 3-4 hours. It's possible I missed it. If I did please let me know the page #.

Re:Pinto of console

[TrekkieGod]

Then your probably shouldn't buy any consoles. Consoles that use discs are going to fail a lot quicker than the old ones that used cartridges.

Heh...I didn't feel the need to mention that the SegaCD plugged to my genesis is also still in working condition, but if you're going to argue that point, I guess I should. My Saturn and Dreamcast are also fine. I gave away my PS2 when I got a PS3, and as far as I know, that's also still working.

Not to mention, of course, that the Red Ring of Death isn't being caused by optical drive failures.

Seriously, the failure rate of consoles other than the 360 are pretty low. They do fail, and the optical drive can be one of the first things to go, but those failures are pretty bad. The 360 failure rate is an outlier, it's not a trend of disc-based consoles.

Re:Pinto of console

[AbRASiON]

Microsoft rushed the Xbox 360 to market for a plethora of reasons I've covered before.

The long story short is the Xbox 1 was costing them money, due to intel and nvidia being assholes about the licensing of the chips used in the system.
They also wanted to beat the PS3 and Nintendo offering AND they wanted to reach the Xmas audience (06 iirc?)

It was a smart move to an extent, that full year got quite the jump on Sony and of course let them 'flush out' the Xbox 1 which was a huge cost to them (at the expense of some bitterness of Xbox 1 owners, sadly a console ended before its time)

Personally, I am quite the fussy consumer, I try to research before buying consumer goods so I skipped initially on the 360 and seemed I made the right decision.
I ended up getting the falcon revision about 14 months ago but I sold it 8 months ago due to excessive noise and fear it would break anyhow.

I've stuck with my PS3 in the long run, as people CONTINUE to forget is the vast majority of good games on 360!!! just so happen to be bloody cross platform, like COD4, Bioshock, Oblivion, Rockband, Guitar Hero, DMC4, GTA4, Burnout Paradise, Fallout 3 (do I need to keep going?)
None the less, 360 supporters on the web continue to claim the PS3 has 'no games'
In their mind, these games don't exist on the PS3 because they have them on 360 anyhow.

Well if you only want to own a single console this might shock them but they work on the PS3 also
Furthermore, the PS3 exclusive games are not ported to PC, unlike the 360
Gears, Fable, Halo have all been ported to PC and I wouldn't be surprised if F2, Gears2 and Halo 3 do eventually make it to PC.

What about Uncharted, God of War, MGS3 / 4, Little Big planet, Pixel Junk Monsters, Resistence, Killzone, Motorstorm...... these do not make it to PC.
So in my not so humble opinion, the smart buy is actually a high end gaming PC and a PS3, NOT a high end gaming PC and a 360.

Furthermore, I don't need to buy a wireless adaptor, I don't need to purchase a 'special dongle' do to HDMI and optical audio out, I have a 320gb drive in my PS3 for 70$ US, I have Ubuntu on my PS3, I have PS3 media server on my PC making HD MKV's look lovely, I can charge my controllers with a 2$ USB cable not a 20$ play and charge kit, my console is quieter, I can play back blu ray movies, I can play online for free (and no, PSN isn't garbage or TERRIBLE, it's lacking one or two XBL features)
I could probably go on and on but ultimately, I paid my money and now I just buy games, I don't pay 70$ AUD a year for online or anything, I feel I got the better deal.

Before people come back with the fanboy response, oddly enough I prefer my Xbox 1 to my PS2, so no I'm not some long time Sony fanboy, maybe I just naturally lean towards the underdog, who knows but the PS3 IS going to pick up steam and I am damned happy the PS2 is still here, it gives me confidence my 688$ PS3 will still have games released for it in 2,3 4 and maybe even 5 years from now - unlike my 500$ Xbox which was 'dumped' by Microsoft after 4 years.

Playstion! Please consider.
(nah I don't work for Sony)

Re:Pinto of console

[Daniel Phillips]

The people I know that have PS3s (about 7) have never had to send their system in for repair.

Well, let me fix that for you. First and second generation PS3 blu-ray drive failure rate (90 nm generation) is high. Nobody knows how high because Sony has not admitted the problem. Sony charges $150 to fix it, and pretends they do not know exactly what what failed and why. It is just amazing to me that somebody at Sony thinks it makes business sense to burn its early adopters this way.

Re:Pinto of console

[Cinder6]

Alright, guess I misunderstood you, then. I still don't think he was trolling. The 360 does have an atrocious failure rate. Fun console, but that doesn't excuse it.

Re:Pinto of console

[iocat]

Most of the ones they send out to replace broken ones are refurbs, not new systems. I'm surprised I haven't gotten one of my own back yet, to be honest, given that I'm on my SEVENTH. As for why people keep buying and playing them... absent the hardware issues, it's an awesome system with great third party suport and the best "friends list" capability.

Re:Pinto of console

[MikeBabcock]

You buy a [Ford|etc.] vehicle and it dies on you and they won't fix it. You buy another and it does the same. You don't buy [Ford|etc.] vehicles anymore, do you?

Lots of people I know won't buy a Ford/GM/Toyota/whatever because of a bad experience in the past. You never get a second chance to make a first impression, and that counts in any type of retail as well.

They Forgot To Add....

[BJ_Covert_Action]

"The repair procedure will deprive you of your overpriced gaming console for more than two weeks which, though you legally paid for and own, you are not allowed to unscrew and open in order to clean out the excessive amount of obfuscated legal BS that came with the interior of your purchase. Have a nice day...."

Re:They Forgot To Add....

[Imagix]

Two weeks? My RRoD took them 2 months. First their online system lost my repair request. Then I called them and got the email that says my repair's been registered, but never got the shipping label to send them my unit. Then we arranged to have them ship me a box, which didn't arrive. Then a second box which finally did arrive.

Legendary MS reliability

[spankyofoz]

5+ years old, and they still haven't ironed out the bugs, erm I mean features.

Another 2 Billion?

[assemblerex]

It cost 2 Billion to cover the RROD, how much to cover E74??
As a SHAREHOLDER I am very angry. What are we, a piggy bank?

Re:Another 2 Billion?

[assemblerex]

I am doubly angry!
I own the declining stock
I own the defective console (on number 4)
Each time I send out a RROD I see my dividend going up in smoke.

Re:Another 2 Billion?

[tb3]

You know what they say, a billion here, a billion there, and soon you're talking about real money.

It was never more true than for Microsoft.

Re:Another 2 Billion?

[KDR_11k]

The fuckup may be irrecoverable now but that doesn't mean it couldn't have been avoided in first place.

Re:Another 2 Billion?

[MikeBabcock]

Angry that they got into a business they didn't understand (hardware manufacturing) and did a piss-poor job of it, losing lots of money for their shareholders.

The E74 error was kb article

[SpazmodeusG]

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/941377
Only cause listed: "This problem occurs when the Xbox 360 console experiences a general hardware failure."
So the original warranty covers general hardware failures and Microsofts kb article acknowledges E74 as a general hardware failure.

So aren't they simply covering this under warranty because they have to?

Re:The E74 error was kb article

[assemblerex]

This was always covered in consoles under one year warranty.
After that you were SOL
By increasing it to 3 years, they triple their liability
and costs.
Please think before you type.

Re:The E74 error was kb article

[Bert64]

By releasing a console with such a high instance of problems compared to all the closest competitors they have already increased their repair burden, increasing the warranty period to 3 years just made it even worse.
Does anyone have figures for the relative failure rates of consoles from Sony/Nintendo and their associated repair costs?

Re:The E74 error was kb article

[donaldm]

So aren't they simply covering this under warranty because they have to?

All companies normally carry out testing and quality assurance on all products they manufacture. By using fairly simple and some not so simple statistical analysis a company can determine the reliability and thus possible failure rate of a product over time. Once an acceptable failure rate is determined then the potential failure and subsequent replacement or repair of a product is actually factored into the total cost of that product to the customer over the so called warranty period, which can be anything from 12 months (most of the world) to lifetime which could be something that is very difficult to destroy.

When you look at electronic components a 1% or less failure rate over the life of that product's warranty period is normally acceptable and can result in a profitable product for the company. Once failure rates go up within a warranty period the company can loose credibility and even make losses.

It is possible for the consumer to get what is called an extended warranty however you have to pay for this. It must be realised that no insurance company would offer an extended warranty if the product had more than 5% failure rate although this does depend on what the insurance company deems an acceptable failure rate over the extension period since the longer the extended period the greater the chance of failure. Over time all products will suffer 100% failure rate however all manufacturers try to make that time as long as possible since it makes for good business sense.

I have read that Microsoft considers 10% failure over a one year period is the industry standard. This is totally wrong, less than 1% (depends on the product and country) is acceptable and less than 0.1% is preferable since that will result in less returns and more profits for the company. Basically Microsoft has adopted their so called software standard of ship early and we will fix it later, however software is radically different to hardware and customers do notice this. What is amazing is that people put up with this in the US but if Microsoft doesn't get a handle on this quickly they are going to loose credibility if they have not already and this will hurt them badly.

Re:The E74 error was kb article

[Spatial]

From googling: less than 1% for the PS3 and Wii. The older 360 models had a failure rate of 30% and the newer ones 16%. I assume the figures are after one year, it wasn't generally stated.

Re:The E74 error was kb article

[Achromatic1978]

Or take certain other hardware manufacturers route and deny, deny, deny, delete forum posts, deny some more, and then verrrrrry belatedly acknowledge it for a subset of users...

Re:The E74 error was kb article

[KDR_11k]

They previously offered an extended warranty for a certain set of hardware failures and E74 was not in that set.

Sale of Goods act

[DrScotsman]

At least for us Brits, it's time we stopped relying on these warranties and go back to the good ol' Sale of Goods act, where goods must last "a reasonable length of time" and the liability is with the retailer. My brother keeps bringing his consoles back to GAME, and they just give him a new one except the hard drive (annoyingly meaning he has to be signed in to live to use content downloaded on a previous Xbox, but IIRC MS don't always give you your exact console back). Quick and easy. If enough people do this, it will eventually become infeasible for many retailers to actually stock the Xbox, and THEN Microsoft may actually do something.

Okay that's wishful thinking and isn't going to happen, but considering it's usually a lot easier and quicker to take it back to the retailer than send it to MS, you should do it anyway.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[pimpimpim]

I guess that retailers tend to have a different opinion on that one.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[Crizp]

We have something like that in Norway. An item is generally under one year warranty from the manufacturer (some items like washing machines come with a three-year warranty) but in cases where the product is "supposed to last longer" than the warranty you can demand to have it fixed for free -- mention the consumer ombudsman when talking to the company. Like a TV - if it fritzes after a year and two months, you CAN get it fixed for nothing still.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[DoofusOfDeath]

If enough people do this, it will eventually become infeasible for many retailers to actually stock the Xbox, and THEN Microsoft may actually do something.

Perhaps they'll follow our American model of paying to have the law changed in their favor.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[Sockatume]

You may want to tell him to use this site to transfer his licences, so he no longer has to be signed in.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[Xest]

This is exactly what I did and as you say they just give you a new one.

Regarding your brother having to sign in, that can be fixed. You can either phone up MS and get them to shift the licenses and complain so that they give you some MS points as an apology or you can do it yourself without the complaint on xbox.com

The retailers don't lose out when you return it to them, they just return it to Microsoft and claim back off of them. As such there's no real loss for the retailer in accepting returns and offering replacements.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[DrScotsman]

The retailers don't lose out when you return it to them, they just return it to Microsoft and claim back off of them. As such there's no real loss for the retailer in accepting returns and offering replacements.

While Microsoft would reimburse the retailer for the actual console, I imagine that just like when you're taking the faulty 360 back to the retailer you don't get reimbursed for travel costs (except very rarely), there will be some kind of overhead cost for the retailer that Microsoft is not reimbursing them for. On an individual basis that loss might be small, or as you said not a "real loss", but it might become massive when you consider how many defective consoles there are.

No good examples are coming to my mind...how about that a big store would have so many returns that they'd need someone to spend 30 minutes each day filling out all the paperwork required to return it.

Also the Sales of Goods act may give the consumers more protection from the retailer over a faulty console than whatever company law gives the retailer protection from Microsoft, hence some percentage of consoles may not be claimable for the retailer.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[Xest]

I think the reason we get ripped off in Britain is partly to cover these costs. I think they make enough profit to be able to factor the costs you mention in and then some on top compared to other countries who get everything cheaper so although you're right it may take a cut out of what they could potentially make, they still make more off UK consumers per console than almost anywhere else in the world even in such a scenario.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[KDR_11k]

Not terribly hard to prove that an issue like the RROD is caused by a faulty product considering all the admissions from Microsoft about that.

Re:Sale of Goods act

[Crizp]

Nope, but legislation like this is usually also introduced through EFTA as well, which Norway is a part of.

Like the recent maximum prices for cell phone roaming in EU countries -- we'll have to comply with that as well.

Opponents of the EU say our EU membership-by-proxy is a good thing; we get the advantages without paying for it.

Proponents say we get all the bad legislation as well but don't have a say since we're not true members.

Can't win 'em all, right?

Biggest thing that bugs me

[rikkards]

Is the fact that it is so damn noisy. The fan is bad enough but the fact I will be watching a video from my computer and the drive is spinning. WTF is that for?

Re:Biggest thing that bugs me

[Ash-Fox]

Is the fact that it is so damn noisy. The fan is bad enough but the fact I will be watching a video from my computer and the drive is spinning. WTF is that for?

It's to give you the xbox experience.

I just got this error on Friday

[Laser_iCE]

Sucks that I have to wait for the box to come in over the long weekend. Funny, mine was a month within its year warranty anyway, so I was lucky either way, but I think it's funny that it clunked out so close to the warranty expiration date.

Ummm....I thought they stopped sending coffin's?

[wernox1987]

I thought I read somewhere MS stopped sending coffins in the US? FWIW, I own all three, the Wii died once and took about 6 weeks to get replaced. It was kind of a suprise because we never really use the thing. The 360 died twice, once was a 2 week replacement and the other was due to a power supply failure. The people at the call center weren't much help in troubleshooting that. The PS3 has never been repaired, but it's really just a blue-ray player for us. The 360 gets by far the most use. Best online community and best games hands down.

Missed the boat

[ThinkWeak]

I've officially missed the warranty boat. I picked up my 360 on 1/1/2006 and have not had a problem with it. It is the only console I own and it acts as my main DVD player as well. It is consistenly used and has not faltered. I'm not sure what the difference is, because everyone I know is either on their 3rd or 4th replacement.

They think it has something to do with the woodgrain faceplate.

I would be interested to know how many people HAVE NOT had a problem with this console? They're usually the least likely to speak up.

Re:Missed the boat

[MooseMuffin]

Mine made it 2 years and 5 months before the RROD last month. I was actually pretty happy about it, since the timing of my purchase made it seem like I had one of the more problematic batches, so I was hoping it would crap out before the warranty expired. Factor in that the console they returned to me was far far quieter than the one I sent in, and that this isn't really the time of year for blockbuster game releases and I'd say it actually worked out pretty well for me.

Too much spit in eyes... I'm... a.. consumer..

[Cathoderoytube]

Does this mean I get my $100 back from when my 360 broke two weeks after the warranty expired and I had to get it replaced?

It is the owners fault...

[Daravon]

The sticker on the side clearly said to only use E85.

Re:Microsoft gets new tasteful "brown ring of deat

[petermgreen]

umm over here in the uk right now (prices from game.co.uk and rounded to the nearest pound) the xbox 360 ranges from £130-£210 depending on model, the PS3 is £300 and the wii is £179

The base model xbox 360 has been cheaper than the wii over here for some time afaict.

Re:What you wanted to know about Xbox designing.

[Gizzmonic]

You really made a mess with the your post for a number of reasons: - Sentence fragments - No formatting - Poor choice of worsd / - Lack of experience at posting legible text to a website - and a lot of others. If you have a literate background you would understand.

Fixed!

[Tokolosh]

Got mine back last week from repair, which was less than two weeks total. Came with a one-month Xbox Live card. No charges at all. Much quieter, too.

My system was out of warranty, had three red lights, and had been opened on an attempted repair by me.

Having been very dissillusioned, Microsoft has now somewhat redeemed itself.

Re:Fixed!

[Kumiorava]

Obviously they are getting good at fixing those machines, I guess practice makes one perfect. Often good care of failed product can lead to a great word of mouth advertisement.

Re:What you wanted to know about Xbox designing.

[petermgreen]

Why they chose to use a lead-free solder process is beyond me.
They don't have a choice for consoles sold in europe, for those sold in the US they could use lead based solder but it's probablly easier logistically to use lead free everywhere.

Yes lead free solder is inferior but the whole computer industry is using it and most of the stuff is a hell of a lot more reliable than the xbox 360.

Re:Microsoft gets new tasteful "brown ring of deat

[Theoboley]

"Trying to make wiis fast enough to keep them in shops"

I can go to any one of the big box stores here and find one no problem... Your post is a year and a half too late

Re:Microsoft gets new tasteful "brown ring of deat

[thetoadwarrior]

VGChartz numbers:
Wii:48.95M
360:29.68M
PS3:21.60M

Wikipedia numbers:
Wii:Worldwide: 50 million (as of March 25, 2009)
360:Worldwide: 27.93 million (as of January 14, 2009)
PS3:21.3 million (as of December 31, 2008)

The 360, for having a year lead, is by no way thrashing the PS3. In fact it's arguable that the PS3 could very well catch up by the end of the year if MS doesn't have any decent exclusives and Sony does. MS should point out that the "unpopular" PSP is out selling the 360.

Sony is clearly selling more units than MS which is why they're catching up. It helps that the PS3 is popular all over the world where as no one outside of the US or UK really care about the 360. Especially in poor countries where they can't afford a system that breaks after a month's use.

Once you add the DS' 100,000,000 units and the PSP's 46 million units then you realise MS is still the nobody in gaming and it's because they don't have enough good titles to completely blow away the PS3 and their hardware is shit.