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Anonymous Network I2P 0.7.2 Released

Mathiasdm writes "The Invisible Internet Project, also known as I2P, has seen its 0.7.2 release (download). I2P uses multiple encryption layers, and routing through several other computers to hide both sender and receiver of messages. On top of the network, regular services such as mail, browsing, file sharing and chatting are supported. This release (and all of the releases since 0.7) is at the start of a new development period, in which the I2P developers wish to spread the word about the secure network. This new release includes performance improvements, a first edition of an experimental new desktop interface and security improvements (by limiting the number of tunnels a single peer can participate in)."

231 comments

  1. Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    By abbreviating I2P instead of IIP they save a whole zero characters.

    1. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Here I was thinking that it was RP, damn me and my 1337 h4x0r sk1llz

    2. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... because everyone knows posting on slashdot as AC is the way to conserve characters.

    3. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      Great compression algorithm they are using there. Hope they got something more efficient in their project.

    4. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Mage+Powers · · Score: 1

      I2P sounds better than Aye Aye Pee

      then theres the eeeeeeepc...

    5. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by CarpetShark · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find "I2P" quite recognisable as a "trademark", and more importantly, quite googleable, since it doesn't share namespace with myriad corporate TLAs. Works for me.

    6. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by trust_jmh · · Score: 5, Informative

      By abbreviating I2P instead of IIP they save a whole zero characters.

      It is to distinguish it from another anonymous network;
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_IRC_Project

    7. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by grodzix · · Score: 5, Funny

      I2P sounds better than Aye Aye Pee

      Especially if you put 'need' between 'I' & '2' [:

      --
      My Windows is NOT slow, it's special!
    8. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Can anyone compare this I2P, Invisible IRC, and Tor, etc?

      I'm just curious as to how they all differ.. and if any have any REAL usable performance.

    9. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't know IIP, but I2p has a darknet, like freenet, but also allows routing to the internet like tor. It's just as slow as any of the other onion routers, but combines good bits from freenet and tor.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    10. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always wondered about that with I2C or I squared C as it's read out. EYE SQUARED SEE, is that quicker than IIC. I dunno, and to be fair, beyond wondering about it's efficacy, I really don't care.

      Oh well.

    11. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I2P creates an entire seperate (though visible) network that allows tcp transport where it is impossible to connect an I2P address to an IP address. It is easy to tell who is using I2P but not what they're doing on the network. I2P also (or at least used to) includes a proxy out to the full internet. I2P is usable but often times fairly slow (mostly because alot of sites are hosted on people's cable/dsl systems).

      Invisible IRC only works for IRC, and nothing else.

      Tor is more of an anonymizing proxy than an entire seperate network. It's anonymity isn't quite as good as I2P, but in general, you'll get much better transfer rates to the regular internet through tor than I2P.

      Freenet is another approach to anonymous network, but is implemented closer to a searchable, distributed, highly redundant, encrypted filesystem. It is anonymous, but only really allows publishing and reading of content, and it is pretty much impossible to have real time (or even close) communication with it.

    12. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by TheUser0x58 · · Score: 1

      There is a bit of precedent in the technology world for this (IMO, annoying) kind of acronym construction: W3C (World Wide Web Consortium), I2C (Inter-Integrated Circuit), L2CAP (Logical Link Control and Adaptation Protocol), to name a few from memory.

      --
      -- listen to interesting music, support independent radio... WPRB
    13. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by fractoid · · Score: 1

      I2P looks a lot like l2p to me. As in 'ifl2p', or "It's fine, learn to play".

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    14. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but it's easier to remember.
      I too pee.

    15. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Comparing I2P, Tor, and Gnunet/Freenet (so not exactly what you're asking), in order of most to least specialized:

      Gnunet and Freenet are high-latency networks set up to share files redundantly and anonymously.

      Tor is a low-latency network, which works by creating encrypted tunnels through a series of servers to proxy your internet connection anonymously. Also, there exist "hidden servers" on Tor which can only be accessed from the Tor network. They allow servers to be anonymous too. Tor can't run BitTorrent efficiently, as all connections are proxied to the normal internet, don't allow incoming connections from the normal internet, and using Tor's circuit-switched network for the many connections needed to file-share is horribly inefficient. Tor is really built for the client/server model of traditional internet browsing/hosting.

      I2P is a more generic low-latency anonymous network. Its nodes can talk to each other anonymously, and it allows other specialized applications to run over it. There is a set of applications for it to make it function similar to Tor and proxy your internet. BitTorrent can also be run on it efficiently to share between I2P users.

      Closer comparisons between I2P and Tor:
      Tor builds circuits between servers which hold whole connections. I2P packet-switches allowing each packet to find an efficient path (its own circuit in Tor-speak). So I'd guess that I2P would be quicker than Tor in many cases, by utilizing more paths efficiently.

      Personally, I'm more confident in Tor's anonymity and network, and would use where anonymity was the #1 priority. Tor is tried-and-true, was originally researched by the US Navy, and has ties with the EFF, while I2P is "still a work in progress, and should only be used for testing or development purposes prior to the 1.0 release".

    16. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was thinking it means Learn To Play... Damn, I should play less online games :

    17. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by Poltras · · Score: 1

      If you mean character as in "personality", then yes, yes it is ;-)

    18. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a headline for a Weekly World News article about ocular urination.

    19. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by devitto · · Score: 1

      Duuuur.

      I2P is obviously short for IIP, and is therefore I-squared-P. As the 2 would be superscripted, that's 50 smaller than a full I, as well as using a character that's much earlier in the ASCII table - presumably to save power and reduce the related carbon footprint.

      Bysides I-I-Peee sounds like the authors are jabbering incontinents, never the best first impression.

    20. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by dword · · Score: 1

      You smoke too much pot.

    21. Re:Wow, way to abbreviate there by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Actually I've smoked it twice (once in Amsterdam, once on a ferry in Thailand) and it's never really done anything for me. I'm lucky enough to get most of my kicks out of alcohol and caffeine. :) 'l2p' or 'ifl2p' were recurring memes on the WoW forums a year or two back, I assumed I was only the

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  2. First post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this mean I can live without fearing the RIAA?

    1. Re:First post? by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      No, this means you can live in another, RIAA-free dimension, where the Intarwebs have never reached more than 2Kbps ;)

    2. Re:First post? by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've been using I2P on-and-off for quite a while, and it is way faster than 2Kbps. BitTorrent over I2P can reach speeds of 50KBps and it could probably go faster if there was a mature BitTorrent client for I2P. Latency is low as well. Overall, I2P is much more usable than TOR.

      --
      It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
    3. Re:First post? by CarpetShark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Doesn't sound half bad when you put it like that :)

    4. Re:First post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Is I2P meant for using with torrents? I know with TOR, the majority of users hate people using it for torrents because it bogs down the network. Is this not the case with I2P?

    5. Re:First post? by Mathiasdm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unlike with Tor, each user is a router (especially true for high-bandwidth users). Obviously people are not a router to the regular net (as that could get people in trouble), but all users route data through the I2P network itself.
      In other words, if you want high-bandwidth bittorrenting, it helps a lot to contribute bandwidth yourself (makes you well-integrated). This keeps leechers to a slightly lower level.
      Secondly, as torrents consume a lot of bandwidth, they also provide cover traffic for other people who might not more anonymity.

      --
      Join the anonymous, help develop the network: http://www.i2p2.de
    6. Re:First post? by suffe · · Score: 1

      Yes, speeds are survivable. Now try to actually find some torrents... What is needed is not a better client (though it wouldn't hurt) but they need to reach a 'critical mass' of users.

      --

      Karma: 2.71828182846 (Mostly due to small, fun pills)
    7. Re:First post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't the reason services like this suck because people are using bit torrent over it?

    8. Re:First post? by MindKata · · Score: 1

      "Now try to actually find some torrent" and "critical mass' of users."

      Getting it to a critical mass of users is going to be a very important goal, but ironically I think help will come from companies like Phorm. As a lot of people are going to want to seek ways to avoid being so mercilessly exploited by companies like Phorm. Its ironically a very good rallying cry to effectively market I2P as a means to avoid Phorm. (I2P isn't perfect (yet) at avoiding Phorm, but its a lot better than not having it).

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
    9. Re:First post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I2P is designed for high bandwidth protocols such as BitTorrent.

    10. Re:First post? by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      No, the reason services like this suck is that real anonymity is costly, especially when you're one of the few who believe in it. A good analogy would be how you would send a private message through snail mail, if the norm was to send only publicly readable postcards, and anything else was immediately considered suspicious enough to examine in detail. What you'd probably end up doing is (slowly) sending the normal amount of postcards, but spreading a hidden message out between them all, with some sort of embedded code that's difficult to detect.

    11. Re:First post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BitTorrenting through Tor would be quite unfair.
      not many people run relay nodes, so Tor is not a p2p based network. It is based on the kindness of the node operators. bt just bring too much traffic, with that much traffic, other users can do alot more important things when browsing the web.
      I2P is not bad, try bit torrent/imule with it.
      After the first few painful slow hours(building local peer database during first run), it will pick up speed.

  3. Did anyone else misread that? by _Hellfire_ · · Score: 5, Funny

    I initially read that as "Anonymous Network 127.0.0.1 Released" and thought "did I miss April Fools this year?"

    --
    "And then I visited Wikipedia ...and the next 8 hours are a blur..."
    1. Re:Did anyone else misread that? by SalaSSin · · Score: 1

      I was having a similar problem, yeah... (it being midnight here on a sunday evening...)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice - Grey's Law
    2. Re:Did anyone else misread that? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Haha, same here; my first glance at the headline left me thinking it was some joke "uber secret 127.0.0.1 network". The I2P looks like 127...

    3. Re:Did anyone else misread that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you! It's nice to know I'm not alone :D

    4. Re:Did anyone else misread that? by mmaniaci · · Score: 1

      I thought it said "Autonomous Network" and promptly put on my tinfoil hat.

  4. I2P vs TOR by areusche · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm in a bit of a rush but how is this any different then say TOR? I read over the about I2P page and it sounds like a similar setup. If I'm wrong (which I most likely am) please correct me.

    1. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm in a bit of a rush but how is this any different then say TOR?

      http://www.i2p2.de/techintro.html#similar.tor

    2. Re:I2P vs TOR by areusche · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Someone mod this coward up! Thanks for finding that.

    3. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I suspect I2P is also more tolerant of P2P. Tor has been suffering massive speed hits due to arseholes using P2P over it.

    4. Re:I2P vs TOR by x78 · · Score: 4, Informative

      When last I used it seemed that I2P has a whole network of ".i2p" domain things that you could only access if you were a part of the I2P network.
      Tor is just a proxying service is it not?
      I think it's something like if Tor was a private network that only Tor users could access.

      --
      Don't panic
    5. Re:I2P vs TOR by cdgeorge · · Score: 4, Funny

      i just googled for the above text by mistake, and google already found the entry comment. Is this fast or what?

    6. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://eqt5g4fuenphqinx.onion/

    7. Re:I2P vs TOR by rafa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I believe .onion services can be created using tor as well, providing a similar service - but it's been a while since I last read about them.

      --
      [Science] is one of the very few things that raises human life a little above farce and gives it the grace of tragedy.
    8. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the primary differences is Tor says "don't do large downloads through our system" whereas I2P says "go ahead, do torrents, whatever".

      At least that's what it was years ago. I tried I2P a few times but there was basically nothing on it. There was/is more stuff on Freenet which is similar. Though one of I2P's goals was to be faster than Freenet. Tor has the most stuff because it's just a connector to the regular 'ol Internet.

    9. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tor: http://eqt5g4fuenphqinx.onion/

    10. Re:I2P vs TOR by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 5, Funny

      No dammit, this is encouraging people to read things. Sure it's just a simple link this time, then sooner or later its TFA, then god forbid, TFM. We can't have that, please stop.

    11. Re:I2P vs TOR by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't worry. He did not link the URL. And we're not copying and pasting URL to the address bar anytime soon. (God, that was painful to even write. ^^)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    12. Re:I2P vs TOR by chromas · · Score: 4, Funny

      You think that's fast? I just tried googling it and I got your comment with my reply!

    13. Re:I2P vs TOR by moortak · · Score: 1
      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    14. Re:I2P vs TOR by fractoid · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, well *I* googled and I found the post of the guy who's about to reply to me!

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    15. Re:I2P vs TOR by Miseph · · Score: 5, Funny

      And boy were you disappointed.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    16. Re:I2P vs TOR by chromas · · Score: 1

      Now we know that some Google-bot has (or will have) indexed a flux capacitor at 88MPH.

    17. Re:I2P vs TOR by zubumufu · · Score: 1

      Tor's primary focus is to provide lots of out proxies allowing people to anonymously browse the Internet. On the side it just happens to have the basics of an anonymous network.

      I2P's primary focus is to provide an robust anonymous network. On the side it just happens to have an out proxy allowing people to browse the Internet anonymously.

    18. Re:I2P vs TOR by zubumufu · · Score: 1

      Yes, P2P of all kinds are very much welcome on I2P. :-)

    19. Re:I2P vs TOR by zubumufu · · Score: 1

      The two BitTorrent trackers/indexers have quite a bit of content now. Not as much as TPB of course, but you can find some really great items. And modest requests are usually are filled quite quickly.

    20. Re:I2P vs TOR by paganizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Both TOR and I2P have hidden networks only accessible if you are using the client. Interestingly, they both also have Freenet 0.5 gateways.
      When it looked like Freenet 0.5 was going to die (which it's not, people are going back to it from 0.7 in droves), I did quite a bit of testing on both TOR & I2P; I2P is MUCH more anonymous than TOR, in default configuration.

      --
      Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
    21. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but... which one?

      DUN DUN DUNNNNNN

    22. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So with I2P carrying multiple slashdot readers, whats to stop us from making the I2P Wallmart of Google grade servers and just build a giant ass Doom cluster? Anyone? Doom? Anyone?

    23. Re:I2P vs TOR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure while I'm in there I can take a piss.

      Then you can shit like a chicken.

    24. Re:I2P vs TOR by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      How does that help? Sure I can paste something with it. But I still have to copy and pas...snore....

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    25. Re:I2P vs TOR by decavolt · · Score: 1

      This is correct. Tor has the ability to "anonymously" host tor-network-only sites and services.

      And yes, Tor is pretty much just a multi-layered proxy (and is thus an "onion router"). Tor doesn't encrypt traffic on it's own at the source or destination, and you generally need to use Tor along with something like Privoxy (http://www.privoxy.org/) in order for it to be useful for surfing.

    26. Re:I2P vs TOR by DigitAl56K · · Score: 1

      Cool,

      Now we just need to wait for ICANN to allow anyone to buy any TLD, then the government can capture people trying to use .i2p sites with misconfigured clients.

    27. Re:I2P vs TOR by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      has (or will have)

      You mean: wioll haven (Future Semiconditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional)
      Source: Dr D. Streetmentioner

    28. Re:I2P vs TOR by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 1

      You think that's fast? I just googled it and I got your reply, my reply, and a reply to this comment saying "Wow, I can't believe google invented time travel!"

      --
      I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
    29. Re:I2P vs TOR by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 1

      Wow, I can't believe google invented time travel!

      --
      I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
    30. Re:I2P vs TOR by chromas · · Score: 1

      You could've gotten bonus points if you'd replied to yourself before posting.

  5. Slow as usual... by blahbooboo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is far from the first P2P to attempt hiding IP etc. I have not used this system, but all the others that have done (and do) the same thing end up with the same problem -- the system ends up being painfully slow to use.

    Oh well, maybe THIS one will not be?

    1. Re:Slow as usual... by c0d3g33k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The question should be how slow is it compared to the speed experienced after the ISP shuts you off (or the authorities confiscate computing equipment) due to an accusation of illegal activity by the *IAA. The performance hit may seem painfully slow until compared to the slowness of 0 bps. In fact, such a system IMHO should have an easy to use toggle (desktop widget, browser plugin) so that "normal browsing" goes through the usual channels and only the limited periods of "private browsing" are experienced with full protection on. Blend in with the crowd by default and leave the security for when you really need it.

    2. Re:Slow as usual... by tpwch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe it is slow, but currently that is the price for anonymity. If you don't think waiting a few seconds here and there is worth it for being anonymous then don't use services like this. There are plenty of people who think anonymity is worth a lot more than that. If you only want to be anonymous if its convenient and without negative side effects then you are probably not one of the ones who need to be anonymous.

      --
      Posted by a Debian GNU/Linux user
    3. Re:Slow as usual... by blahbooboo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The question should be how slow is it compared to the speed experienced after the ISP shuts you off (or the authorities confiscate computing equipment) due to an accusation of illegal activity by the *IAA. The performance hit may seem painfully slow until compared to the slowness of 0 bps. In fact, such a system IMHO should have an easy to use toggle (desktop widget, browser plugin) so that "normal browsing" goes through the usual channels and only the limited periods of "private browsing" are experienced with full protection on. Blend in with the crowd by default and leave the security for when you really need it.

      How about anonymous by using an open wireless network? Or use the coffee shop wireless network down the street? Or go to a library? There are many better options for being anonymous if you choose...

    4. Re:Slow as usual... by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Do better than that. Leech off of others wifi, or use public free wifi to do "high risk downloading".

      Frankly, nobody cares about crap group or god_awful_teevee show. It's the Wolverines, Cams and leaks the biggies care about. If you rapidshare a book once in a while, or download unlicensed anime/foreign tv shows, nobody cares. It's when you hit the dangerous stuff, or are blatantly peaking usage caps (if you ARE the top user in the city, or near it).

      Now, if you hit high usage, throw ubuntu package rsyncing in there as a big data-sink so you have plausible deniability. An open wifi would help too.

      --
    5. Re:Slow as usual... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By that logic, any encrypted traffic instantly becomes "interesting".

      Instead I'd recommend encrypting as much as possible. The more noise, the better.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Slow as usual... by c0d3g33k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Indeed. All viable options. Until you want to connect to a personal service (email, webserver, bank, TPB etc.) on an open and untrusted network. Then your anonymity can be compromised by any enterprising kiddie monitoring the network. It's not about being anonymous via connecting from a network other than the home account, it's about being anonymous by going into stealth-mode so it's hard to determine who you are and what you are up to regardless of where you are connecting from.

    7. Re:Slow as usual... by physicsphairy · · Score: 1

      If you only want to be anonymous if its convenient and without negative side effects then you are probably not one of the ones who need to be anonymous.

      Having more anonymous people increases the anonymity of everyone. The reason being that if you can identify non-anonymous people, you who is a member of the "anonymous" sub-demographic by the simple principle of exclusion. Details about timing of certain data requests may even narrow it down to a specific individual. The more anonymous data that traffics the internet, the more difficult it is to isolate any of it in particular.

      It is also important to have widespread anonymity because this is the only way for anonymity to be socially excepted. If the only people who use anonymity are those who "need" it, it's going to be dominated by people doing illegal things, and the chance of anonymity itself remaining legal diminishes significantly.

    8. Re:Slow as usual... by Kotoku · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Speed Cost Privacy Pick two. Currently privacy requires a bandwidth overheads to hide the traffic. You can pay companies for private VPN's in other countries that won't give you up, and avoid some speed hits. For most of us though we're stuck with masking our traffic on the cheap end.

    9. Re:Slow as usual... by gringofrijolero · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any attempt at obfuscation will draw the attention of interested parties. A change from "normal" to "private" will be noticeable. Blending in means acting normal, not suddenly pulling a ski mask over your face when you're about to pull a heist.

      --
      Todos mis movimientos están friamente calculados
    10. Re:Slow as usual... by linzeal · · Score: 2, Informative

      That will not hide your geographical location though.

    11. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of which can be pinpointed to your city... Not so anonymous.

    12. Re:Slow as usual... by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But assuming you are transmitting all needed information over HTTPS, there really isn't that much that can be detected from the script kiddy with a packet sniffer.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    13. Re:Slow as usual... by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Or your ISP shuts you off due to bandwidth use... No 'suspicion/accusation' needed.

      Somedays you cant win.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    14. Re:Slow as usual... by Tony+Stark · · Score: 1

      I whole-heartedly agree with this. Especially when it comes to email; as we all know this is like sending a postcard. The more encrypted email out there, the less suspicious they become, seeing as how most people probably don't want their business out there anyway.

    15. Re:Slow as usual... by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      When contemplating this, it is important to realize that participating in projects like I2P and (especially) TOR increases the chances of being cut of from the Internet or worse. After all, your IP address will be involved in criminal activities, and you will have no way to pass the buck to those who are really behind said activities.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    16. Re:Slow as usual... by FreenetFan · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you have your facts wrong. :D

      It's true, if you are a Tor "exit node" that proxies to the regular internet, you will be at risk of having your IP address associated with illegal websites. But most people don't do this.

      Standard use of I2P or Tor will put you at virtually no risk whatsoever. You are just routing encrypted traffic of which you have no idea of the content.

    17. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I always wear a ski mask, nobody will think anything is about to happen when I walk into a bank.

    18. Re:Slow as usual... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Well, my little home server could certainly have the normal network and that thing as a VPN, and allow one to toggle the routing with a little web-, ssh-, or desktop applet interface.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    19. Re:Slow as usual... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      It has been some years since I last submitted or received an unencrypted e-mail. Unfortunately only the part to my provider or my own server are encrypted (IMAPS/SSMTP), but hey, It certainly adds to the noise. :)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    20. Re:Slow as usual... by gringofrijolero · · Score: 1

      Heh, more likely they won't let you in. Some places make you remove ball caps and sunglasses. ISPs can make the same types of requirements

      --
      Todos mis movimientos están friamente calculados
    21. Re:Slow as usual... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      You think physically moving to another geographical location does not hide his geographical location?

      When was the last time you went out.
      No, I mean really leave your chair. And your room. And your house. No. Not the one in your online game. The real one! ^^

      (I know what you meant, but I think driving to another city does a pretty well job. :) Just be sure to not leave any genetic / fingerprint / etc. traces on that computer desk.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    22. Re:Slow as usual... by Vectronic · · Score: 1

      Provided you only do it once (or a couple times), or never use the same network twice for the same activity.

      1. Use anonymous network for "illegal" activities
      2. Get spotted in XYZ location on ZYX network
      3. "They" show up, find nothing suspicious by then
      4. They sit there and watch the network
      5. You show up again, they see your (same) network activity, do a triangulation or whatever
      6. ???
      7. Loss of profit.

    23. Re:Slow as usual... by Agent+ME · · Score: 1

      Whenever you're connecting to something needing authentication, like a bank, you should be using encryption (HTTPS), no matter which method.

      Without it, at the coffee shop, someone monitoring it can sniff your password. On Tor or a similar network, someone can sniff your password if they're running an exit node.

    24. Re:Slow as usual... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Toggle is easy. Just use two different browsers. Maybe your favorite browser is Firefox, and your second favorite is Chrome. Configure Firefox to use normal ports, configure Chrome to use the ports provided by the anonymity service. You can do normal browsing, and carry on anonymous business SIMULTANEOUSLY!!

      Slow? Yeah. But, I'm willing to spend the time waiting for pages to load, to read the sekrit stuff people have to say about life under this or that repressive regime.

      TOR is dominated by child porn, so I have pretty much given up on it. Freenet has child porn, but isn't dominated by it, so I'm still using it. I2P is relatively new to me. It's somewhat faster, but I haven't found much on it yet.

      All of them will remain installed on my virtual machines, so that I can go exploring outside officially approved channels.

      It should be noted that ALL OF THEM seem to have halted development. It's almost like NSA stopped funding them or something. Check the history and update logs of any of them, you'll see pretty regular updates up through mid-2007, then WHAM! development stops.

      Odd, huh? Oh, someone's knocking at the door..... OH NO!!!! IT'S THE THOUGHT POLICE!!!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    25. Re:Slow as usual... by Panzor · · Score: 1

      You must get zero spam and have either no family or the most technically savvy family I've ever heard of. Crypto-granny is it? :P

    26. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're wearing a football helmet all the time (running an I2P router all the time), then people who see you regularly (your ISP) will think you're weird, but won't give a fuck. ISP's usually only care that you don't go over your cap. Except that it's inconvenient for them forward MAFIAA letters. But with I2P, you can configure how much bandwidth you share and the MAFIA can never tell what the fuck anyone is sharing because IP addresses are not shared when two computers connect to each other.

    27. Re:Slow as usual... by zubumufu · · Score: 1

      It should be noted that ALL OF THEM seem to have halted development.

      Didn't you hear? Anonymous Network I2P 0.7.2 Released. I2P is actively being developed.

    28. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you log in, and see how extensive the network is? It's less developed than freenet, and freenet is certainly nothing to brag about. The application may be developing, but the network doesn't seem to be.

    29. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found I2P to be very capable of delivering of delivering nice bandwith. Sure streaming might not not work very well yet, but most .i2p sites load relatively quickly.

      The main reason it's slow is that only few people are using it right now so connecting to these people might take some time, and most of then use their local consumer connections, with slow upload speed.

      Of course you will always have significantly more latency due to encryption, but does that really matter for services like http and bittorrent?

    30. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are referring to TorButton.

    31. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Active I2P user here. It may be less developed than freenet, but it works a hell of a lot better.

    32. Re:Slow as usual... by Znork · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even better, don't only encrypt things you want encrypted. Add encrypted true random data to any mails you send, to web pages, etc. As the encrypted random data will be largely indistinguishable from actual content but impossible to decrypt it'll clog any listeners decryption capabilities, forcing them to either white list you or be stuck with a huge pile of largely undecipherable junk which may or may not contain something they might want to attempt to decrypt.

      The desire of our dear leaders to expand surveillance to everyone everywhere and take the authoritarian road is, perhaps, unstoppable, but fortunately it also creates a huge funnel collecting sand for the machinery.

    33. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...said Registrant Coward.

    34. Re:Slow as usual... by base3 · · Score: 1

      TOR is dominated by child porn, so I have pretty much given up on it.

      What do you mean by this? TOR is a gateway that provides access to the Internat at large, so do you mean that the Internet at self is dominated by child porn? There are several possibilities here:

      • I'm missing something about TOR (entirely possible).
      • You're associating TOR with anecdotes you've read or heard about.
      • Your post is part of a sinister campaign to smear TOR (seems unlikely).
      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    35. Re:Slow as usual... by base3 · · Score: 1

      Using free public WiFi to do "high risk downloading," unless the person so doing is savvy enough to change his/her MAC address, leaves the MAC address in the provider's logs. So when the Secret Service/FBI/MAFIAA come knocking, there's an identifier traceable to the particular machine used to conduct said download, unless the person happened to pay cash for his/her laptop while providing no personal information, and (depending on how "high risk" we're talking about here) wore clothing obscuring the face while purchasing his/her machine while using public transportation to avoid having his/her license plate recorded by the surveillance cameras in the store parking lot.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    36. Re:Slow as usual... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I agree that everything should just be encrypted by default, but I'm not sure that encrypted traffic looks suspicious any more.

      Thanks to protocol encryption in BitTorrent, widespread use of VPN connections and SSL encrypted packets are hardly rare these days. In fact, I remember there was a story a few years ago when BitTorrent protocol encryption first came in, where MI5 and other spying agencies were complaining that it made their jobs a lot harder.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    37. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am afraid that there is more to TOR than you are aware of. Take a look at this page http://www.torproject.org/docs/tor-hidden-service.html.en Key words are "hidden" and "service". People can, and do, set up websites featuring - welllll - whatever appeals to them, that might be illegal in their country. A good deal of those hidden services are illegal in MY country. TOR has it's redeeming values, but to make use of them, you have to avoid looking where you will be offended.

      You are right, though, in that TOR can be used only for it's anonymous proxy capability. But, the hidden network is overwhelmed with child porn, and the more legitimate users are unable to root out and ban the perpetrators. (That is, after all, the nature of the routing system - to protect everyone's anonymity.)

    38. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Forget using a different browser if you are in Firefox. Just use the Profile Manager to set up a second profile for using I2P. The only thing using I2P requires is changing your proxy settings to point to localhost:4444.

      However, you might want to use a different theme for the I2P browser, so you can easily identify it; and configure more paranoid privacy settings, and add-ons for your I2P browser.

    39. Re:Slow as usual... by decavolt · · Score: 1

      Those are hardly anonymous, as they still reveal your location, MAC address and a whole lot more.

      Further, the aim here isn't just source anonymity (where you are), but also destination anonymity (the site/location you are sending data TO).

    40. Re:Slow as usual... by decavolt · · Score: 1

      https isn't bullet-proof, and doesn't do a thing on its own to mask the source and destination of traffic. It only encrypts the traffic itself.

    41. Re:Slow as usual... by egcagrac0 · · Score: 1

      By the same standard, if everyone carried a shotgun over their shoulder, then nobody would think that I'm weird when I go to the mall.

      If everyone spoke English (or French, or Spanish, or Klingon), then nobody would think that odd.

      But seriously, parent & grandparent are right. It's slow because many of the people who need it have little bandwidth to contribute to speed it up. I'd love to pay $150/yr to a VPS company to help out, but most of the VPS's I find explicitly say "No Proxies!" in their AUP or ToS.

    42. Re:Slow as usual... by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      Well, most SSL certificates are meaningless crap, so your encryption is also crap, and easily faked. In other words, you can think you're connecting securely to the site, when in fact you're connecting securely to the exact person you don't want a connection to. Far from ideal.

      Besides that, anyone with access to the network traffic (aforesaid kiddie) can easily see what sites you connect to, and for how long. Taking a sequence of sites, even if the sites themselves contained content of all kinds, would let the kiddie piece together what pages you were on on each site. By estimating your stay on each page, a profile could be built up.

      But even just knowing the sites is enough to know which organisation to issue a warrant for records from, and then read the server logs for matching timestamps.

      SSL, as implemented, really only works within securely admin'd organisations, for providing the level of security those admins choose to create.

    43. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China has taught the world well.
      They must learn from China.
      They must expand surveillance.
      Everybody must follow socialism.
      No privacy but share with us!
      Or be punished and die.

    44. Re:Slow as usual... by base3 · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, I forgot about the .onion sites. Wonder how many of those are actually run by law enforcement as traps. (A trojan downloaded via TOR runs just as well as one downloaded any other way. "To see this XXX video, Microsoft Media Player will need a new codec."

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    45. Re:Slow as usual... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, our adversaries will not permit a high speed anonymous network. There are no "technical reasons" why secure anonymous protocols can not be nearly as fast as insecure ones - but there is also no way around the fact that you need a LOT of routers and users to make it so. A plurality of Corporate and State actors with de facto controlling interest in the software and network services industries don't want it to happen. So, Joe Six Pack will not find anonymity as a default or e-z selection on his PC.

      Freedom Network by Zero Knowledge Systems came close to a commercial implementation of remixed and reasonably secure anonymous web services. The Canadian government leaned on them and they weakened the protocol, which caused the CPunk community to abandon them just when they needed a "private army" to promote their product. Curses, foiled again!

      When anonymity is sold in a shiny box for $85.00 USD, or is as easy to download and install as a silly game or toy, speed and reliability will follow.

    46. Re:Slow as usual... by linzeal · · Score: 1

      I am actually agoraphobic so about 50 days last count. Running out of wine, bread and olive oil so will have to go out this weekend at 3 am to do my shopping for the next 2-3 months.

  6. Re:Still exclusively for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Still exclusively for
    Chinese dissidents*

    *who like little boys

    There, fixed that for you.

  7. well clearly . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly nicolas.kassis, _Hellfire_, SalaSSin, areusche, and blahbooboo haven't gotten the message.

  8. Pedophiles and Terrorists by MrMista_B · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, I know how this is gonna be received:

    "Shit, the people of our country might be able to share free and uncensored speech and information among themselves.

    Wait, I know how to fix this! Headlines! "OMG Secret Pedophile and Terrorist Network" - anyone who wants to be anonymous on the internet /must/ be a pedohile or a terrorist. If you have no pedophilia or terrorism plots to hide, you have nothing to hide!"

    1. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Really?

      With data retention becoming reality in Europe, it's only a small step until employers become interested in the data. Why did my employees gather information about certain diseases? Why are they looking at job pages? Why are they looking at my competitor's page or even exchange information with him?

      As soon as data is gathered, its abuse is not far behind.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have no pedophilia or terrorism plots to hide, you have nothing to hide!"

      I have nothing to hide? Oh, well then, I guess I can reveal the locations of the bodies after all!

    3. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Nursie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is, unfortunately, a nugget of truth in there somewhere.

      None of these sorts of things, AFAICT, let you monitor what's going through your node. And that's important to me. Whilst I support free speech and the rights of people to communicate without government interference, I'm damned if my resources are going to be used to propagate child pr0n.

    4. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Whooosh!

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    5. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed the grand parent's sarcasm/humor completely.

    6. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Brian+Stretch · · Score: 1

      So to discourage the development of NSA-proof networks the Obama administration should announce that the RIAA and MPAA have been told that they will no longer be able to sue free P2P sites and users? Or that the definition of "fair use" has been redefined into something more agreeable?

      It's so crazy it just might work!

      (j/k, I think...)

    7. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yay, free speech as long as it's not too free.

    8. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you aren't supporting free speech, are you?

    9. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by jerAzevedo · · Score: 1

      This is a real problem if you think about it. My experience with TOR .onion, or I should say what my friend has told me about TOR, is that there's a lot of child porn. Freenet is a lot better in that regard (significantly less child porn), but I don't know anything about I2P.

      I think there could be a case brought up against services like TOR on the grounds of child porn. It wouldn't be justified, but seeing as how things are developing I could see it happening. If my friend remembers correctly, basically the "main" .onion page and .onion chat is full of links to child porn. The "main" freenet page however only has links to legal porn. These services should probably make sure that all the child porn and other illegal stuff is more hidden.

      Even though I believe in neutrality (regular porn shouldn't take forced precedence over child porn) it might be a smart move that would help keep these services legal.

    10. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by EdIII · · Score: 1

      As soon as data is gathered, its abuse is not far behind.

      That implies it was only *after* the data was gathered that the *idea* of abusing the people involved occurred.

      I, cynically to be sure, believe the *idea* of abusing the people occurred well before the *idea* of collecting the data on them.

    11. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You have to admit it's pretty hard these days where the shortsighted "got nothing to hide" dimwits end and the witty sarcasm starts. When sarcastic comments become all too realistic, be afraid!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by EdIII · · Score: 1

      None of these sorts of things, AFAICT, let you monitor what's going through your node.

      Of course NOT. That defeats the whole purpose of these communication methods in the first place.

      1) Anonymous. As far as the destination network/server/device is concerned your identity was obfuscated and protected by a system of uncertainty. Since all participants in the anonymous network are routing traffic for each other, it is impossible to tell for certain if the traffic originated from the operator of the exit node, or a user of the exit node.

      2) Privacy. The connections themselves are encrypted so that during transit on the network no single entity can monitor/analyze/disrupt the communications based on content. That's not the only reason, but it's a very good one.

      You have a real problem. Only a problem of course if you actually support anonymous and private communications as a fundamental human right and wish to participate. Which I do.

      It is a "your with us" or "your against us" answer here. You CANNOT EVER apply your content filtering to data flowing through your node. It violates the very principles by which these networks were created.

      Now I know this sucks, but you have to accept child pron as an unfortunate fact of life. Which is it you want more? 1) Freedom from tyranny and governments that monitor all communications everywhere which can easily create environments in which the abuse of the citizens escalates well out of hand.... OR.... 2) Dealing with the fact that Child Pron is a price we have to pay for freedom?

      Like I said... I KNOW IT SUCKS. But if I want to have freedom and to place some serious checks and balances against government going down a dark path... I MUST, simply MUST, participate in creating seriously strong tools for anonymity and privacy that will certainly be abused by a small portion of the people. Not just Child Pron either. All sorts of crimes and harassment will occur using these networks and I am not so naive as to be ignorant of that fact.

      Freedom also affords you your sensibilities and I completely and totally respect your wish to not participate in these networks due the possibility (even likelihood) of them being used to transmit Child Pron.

      However, you will never get your wish to participate in transmitting AND control the content at the same time.

      P.S - With TOR at least, you can control where the traffic is going if you operate an exit node. A block list would be impractical and inefficient for your purposes. An allow list would restrict all traffic to the destinations on your list. Now, that is not the same as content filtering, but you would at least know that only certain destinations could receive your traffic and they would be unlikely recipients for such undesirable content. Your exit node could not be used for personal communications, but could at least be used to check Google mail, Slashdot, Yahoo, etc.

      You can do this for any similar network too (not Freenet, or a similar content distribution network) by restricting the communication of that service with your router. There really are not very many home level routers capable of that easily, but you could make your own with Linux, or a high-end high-priced router.

    13. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by EdIII · · Score: 1

      This is a real problem if you think about it. My experience with TOR .onion, or I should say what my friend has told me about TOR, is that there's a lot of child porn. Freenet is a lot better in that regard (significantly less child porn), but I don't know anything about I2P.

      I am not surprised. The person interested in child pron is perfectly aware that their desires are not accepted by society and will result in being ostracized by the other members of society and imprisonment by the authorities. As a result, there are several areas of technology that are in high demand by this portion of our population. Anonymity, and Privacy enabling technologies being chief among them. Also, interesting to note is the algorithms being used to obscure their identities in the videos and photographs. I remember several articles about how the German authorities (99% certain) had developed the ability to remove the blurring on several photographs and this was instrumental in capturing some school teacher that made regular visits to Thailand to molest young boys.

      However, right now, these networks are just beginning. Some are still in beta testing (for years) and they have by no means gained wide public awareness of their existence and possible uses. Due to the low levels of public awareness, there are only a few different demographics being represented on these networks. Including, but not limited to, The Paranoid, The Libertarians, The Tin-Foil-Hats (a specific subset of The Paranoids), The Criminals, The Political Activists, and last but not least, The Kiddie Fuckers (a.k.a The M.ichael J.ackson F.an C.lub).

      Once these networks get more popular, which will easily happen if the RIAA/MPAA/MAFIAA push too much harder, the usability will increase with the addition of bandwidth and the child pron/legitimate content ratio will plummet.

      Until then, I do agree that these technologies are at some risk. However, you really cannot classify them as a service. It's not like Napster, Limewire, Kazaa, etc. where you can go after some developers. Mostly this is open source projects where it would be very difficult to prosecute these people and would ultimately be ineffective as all the code of the project can just move to another country/project with a whole new set of developers.

      What I worry about more is that the very idea of anonymous and private networks like TOR .onion and Freenet become illegal as a concept. That to participate in any development and/or use of networks/technologies that ultimately desire to provide anonymity and privacy becomes illegal itself.

      I predict that before long this "war" will force the governments to consider doing just that with considerable backlash from the populations and corporations. That's my real fear.

      Child Pron is just the "lions, tigers, and bears OH MY!" argument to provide a vehicle for such anti-freedom movements. Just like think-of-the-children motifs in legislation and politics are usually never the true motives, and those motives tend to be far less altruistic then the proponents make it out to be.

      P.S - At least some the links in TOR for child pron, are in fact, run by the different governments. They are sites where the government can lure such people in, and in some cases, deliver trojans directly into the offenders systems and the further used to gain information and that offender and any other people he may be in contact with. So, not all of those links are actually from child pronagraphers. In a way, the government depends on such networks to gain information to identify and ultimately prosecute large groups of offenders at once. Just about every year or so I hear about some Operation X that nabs 50-200 child molesters at one time.

    14. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by sam0vi · · Score: 1

      Actually Tor exit nodes can monitor traffic going through their proxy (loophole interface or whatever), so make sure you use your SSLs and such. I tend to think of it as having sex with a girl who is on the pill, while wearing a condom (better than car analogies)

      --
      When my Karma level reaches 0 I feel in piece with the Universe
    15. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please, read this: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/My_life_in_child_porn

      Although I do not advocate child abuse in any way (quite the opposite, actually), you should have in mind that "the pedophiles" are yet another strawman that will be used to crack on the free internet.

    16. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      So don't use the network.
       
      I would never, ever condone the creation or propagation of CP, but one downside of such an anonymous network is that it can be abused like this.
       
      If it wasn't so difficult (potentially life-altering) to report abuses to the authorities, I don't think we'd have many of the issues we have now. Part of my job is to monitor internet usage, and as such I have to expect that I could be exposed to something truly horrific, but I'm also protected from prosecution by having that as part of my job role. Joe Public in the UK has no such protection; S/He can be thrown in jail and put on the pervert register just for seeing an indecent image of a minor, doing the decent thing, and reporting it to the Police.
       
      The network isn't the problem, it's the stigma attached to even admitting you've seen something objectionable which is the issue. In the UK at least, it's not worth the hassle to report it for most folks. "Out of sight, out of mind" as they say.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    17. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by genner · · Score: 1

      You have to admit it's pretty hard these days where the shortsighted "got nothing to hide" dimwits end and the witty sarcasm starts. When sarcastic comments become all too realistic, be afraid!

      Right..."Be Afriad"....."I'm so scared"......(to be read while making "air quotes").

    18. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by slydder · · Score: 1

      just like the legalization and taxation of marijuana would work.

    19. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see you haven't really visited *.onion or *.i2p sites. There's a sad irony in your post.

    20. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "It is a "your with us" or "your against us" answer here. You CANNOT EVER apply your content filtering to data flowing through your node. It violates the very principles by which these networks were created."

      Which is why I don't feel I can participate.

      There *is* a middle ground in which to operate. It is possible to create a network in which you only connect to known third parties and (unless others have added extra encryption) see what's going across your node without knowing where it originated or what its destination is. That way you keep governments out of your data but don't provide resources for things you find morally abhorrent.

      The fact that I believe in free speech is not contradicted by my refusal to propagate arbitrary information. I support your right to say what you want without harassment but I'm sure as hell not going to hold your megaphone whilst you advocate a child abuse/the return of slavery etc.

    21. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by MartinSchou · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm damned if my resources are going to be used to propagate child pr0n.

      You do realise that your taxes are being used to build and maintain roads? How do you think these people manage to get children, rapists and recording equipment together in the same location? At some point a car is very very likely to be involved.

    22. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      I agree. Those are the two rallying cries that seem to induce most of the population to just say "Okay" and hand over their right to privacy to their government overlords who are "protecting" them (or the children of course!). I'm sure these networks are used by some who have something to hide, but making them suspect or illegal because of that is ridiculous. Not that it will stop the government from trying.

    23. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Nursie · · Score: 1

      False analogy. I am not directly, as a private citizen, taking any action there.

    24. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Nursie · · Score: 1

      So what?

      I'm not advocating stopping the "free internet", I'm just saying I'm not going to use my resources to help you do something I find abhorrent.

      As I said in another post - I'll certainly argue for your right to free speech, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hold your megaphone whilst you go on a violent, racist rant.

      Similarly, I'll support the creation and defend the right to use programs such as these, but I'm damned if you'll use my computer to propagate CP.

    25. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by MartinSchou · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what you're saying is that the people who do road works are taking an active role in child pornography because they helped build the roads? Or that Al Gore is responsible for the child pornography being spread via the internet? He had an active role in having the thing built (by varying degrees of 'built').

      Just because something can be abused for bad things, doesn't mean everyone involved in its creation are responsible for those bad things.

    26. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "Just because something can be abused for bad things, doesn't mean everyone involved in its creation are responsible for those bad things."

      Hi, sorry if I gave the impression that I think either the product or the developers are in and of themselves evil. I think it's fantastic that this tech exists from a freedom point of view and from a crypto-geek point of view. I support people's rights to create and use software such as this, if they want to.

      I'm just saying that I couldn't take part in good conscience.

    27. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is, unfortunately, a nugget of truth in there somewhere.

      None of these sorts of things, AFAICT, let you monitor what's going through your node. And that's important to me. Whilst I support free speech and the rights of people to communicate without government interference, I'm damned if my resources are going to be used to propagate child pr0n.

      They already are. pedophiles use public facilities such as roads and postal service just as much as everybody else. QUICK! ban road networks! Think of the children.

    28. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "They already are. pedophiles use public facilities such as roads and postal service just as much as everybody else. QUICK! ban road networks! Think of the children."

      Think before you post, please.

      I didn't say ban anything, I said I can't take part in good conscience. It's up to you to decide if you think you can.

    29. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, interesting to note is the algorithms being used to obscure their identities in the videos and photographs. I remember several articles about how the German authorities (99% certain) had developed the ability to remove the blurring on several photographs

      Yes, they had developed the amazing ability to apply Photohop's "swirl" effect in opposite direction.

    30. Re:Pedophiles and Terrorists by EdIII · · Score: 1

      There *is* a middle ground in which to operate. It is possible to create a network in which you only connect to known third parties and (unless others have added extra encryption) see what's going across your node without knowing where it originated or what its destination is. That way you keep governments out of your data but don't provide resources for things you find morally abhorrent.

      That is *NOT* a middle ground. I understand you *want* a middle ground since you it seems you want a check and balance against government, but clearly have not given proper thought on just how to do it. You say that your network has known 3rd parties and yet a single person does know the source or destination? That accomplishes nothing. You only possess identification of the nodes communicating with you, but none of the nodes communicating with the source and destination. So who do you report? Who do you punish? You admit that you know the identity of neither the source or destination, but will report your "3rd party" participants and place the onus upon them to identify the offending parties?

      That is an entirely unworkable solution and I sincerely doubt you will get participation.

      In any case, it is a quasi-anonymous service while having ZERO PRIVACY. That fact is it does not provide you the full protections against the government that you think it does. Analysis can still be performed on the plain-text data going across it and plenty of information can be gathered by doing just that. I assume, that encrypted connections would be disallowed since you would not be able to verify the morality of the content going across it.

      A service that is private, but non-anonymous has as much value as an anonymous, but non-private service .... which is no value. It simply does not provide the protections against government that we *need*.

      The fact that I believe in free speech is not contradicted by my refusal to propagate arbitrary information. I support your right to say what you want without harassment but I'm sure as hell not going to hold your megaphone whilst you advocate a child abuse/the return of slavery etc.

      Of course not. I never said, or would say, that you are against free speech. Free Speech is not the same as Forced Listening, or Forced Participation. Something that a good many people get confused about it, and I am not one them. If you thought I stated that you were against the rights to Free Speech, you misunderstood me and I never intended such an insult on your character.

      However, for whatever reasons, you clearly don't support *private* communications. You want some sort of anonymous communications, but ones in which the anonymity can be pierced on demand. Your idea is that the citizens would control that, but nothing stops the government from operating enough nodes to effectively have the same level of control and possess an unacceptable level of information on the thought-to-be-anonymous participants.

      Anonymity and Privacy are fundamental human rights, a fact I am willing to fight and die for. That is not hyperbole either. I feel strongly enough about those being fundamental human rights and essential to Freedom, that they need to be defended at all costs, including open and armed revolution against the governments that would seek to remove it.

      As long as you agree that *WE* have rights to Anonymity and Privacy, but don't wish to participate in providing it to each other as a group due to your perfectly valid moral concerns, *WE* don't have a problem.

  9. A few more features they could add by presidenteloco · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I designed one of these about a decade ago and did some prototyping. Since I don't seem to have the time to realize it, here are a few extra features that could be added (if i2p does not already include these).

    Encrypted-file-fragmenting, auto-globally-migrating, auto-redundant replicating "virtual" data store layer. Stored files automatically seek to be replicated enough times to be guaranteed perpetually persistent, and also seek to move to newer and better physical storage sites, and to globally distribute themselves, and auto-cache near user when needed.

    With this addition, we may have the basis for, for example, a Facebook-like on-line identity avatar which is not owned by a single company like Facebook but just floats around all over the P2P network, and is truly owned by the person who it is about.

    With that freeing up of the online identity from external control, we could extend it to include important identity information needed for the citizen to function in society. Medical records, different identity numbers for different government agencies, your real-world address, etc. All of these properties about you could be placed online by you following standard protocols and placed only onto a secure virtual site in the i2. Permission model would of course be default no permission, opened incrementally to authorized and authenticated other parties.

    If we had this, the onus could now be placed on governments, medical systems, post offices, etc. to come to your avatar and request permission to know your address, or your medical number etc. No more change of address rigamerole. No more problems in your paperwork or medical history maintenance because you happen to move to another state or country.
    etc.

    It all relies on the open standards for the info and privacy protocols, and on the confidence of the person to put their info into a secure, encrypted, and non-owned virtual internet location.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:A few more features they could add by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Greg Egan had a similar idea for his books.

      He called it either a Mediator or a Cypherclerk. Its job was to authenticate, verify, encrypt, decrypt, submit to the network, retrieve from the network, and other general security functions based upon a civilization of sentient software. Although Egan leaves much to be desired about the details, he seems to indicate that it is also semi-sentient, as it learns. Nothing can be "run" on it, as we can do with our computers these days.

      In one book, an outsider reads the mind of one citizen and duplicates the "tag" that identifies a citizen who is not present. After citizens request crypto tags proving who or what he is, the tags fail and they immediately know that the "outsider" is not as he claims.

      --
    2. Re:A few more features they could add by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greg Egan had a similar idea for his books.

      Wow, this is quite a departure from My Two Dads and B.J. & the Bear.

    3. Re:A few more features they could add by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 1

      I thought you were talking about Eureka Seven, then I realized that it just used the name of Greg Egan...

    4. Re:A few more features they could add by FreenetFan · · Score: 1

      What you describe sounds very similar to Freenet.

      Freenet is pretty much the only anonymous P2P system that includes an integrated, encrypted, and distributed data storage layer. The others like Tor and I2P all require that you host your data on a specific machine and it is just access to this data that is anonymised.

      A weakness of this approach is downtime of your secret site can be correlated with downtime of your server e.g. during power cuts, etc. A benefit is that dynamic sites are possible using server-side languages.

    5. Re:A few more features they could add by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Nope. I'm talking about This Guy.

      Eureka Seven? Some anime? Nope. Im talking about an Australian computer scientist and author.

      --
    6. Re:A few more features they could add by whatevah · · Score: 0

      Damn! I just got used to the term cloud. Now,
      are we talking about... "floating clouds"? My head will explode!!

    7. Re:A few more features they could add by cryptoluddite · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I designed one of these about a decade ago and did some prototyping. Since I don't seem to have the time to realize it, here are a few extra features that could be added (if i2p does not already include these).

      Here's a tip for anybody thinking of implementing something like i2p, tor, freenet, etc: if the user has to do anything and if it impacts performance it's not worth doing.

      What's needed is something simple and pervasive:

      1) compatible with regular TCP
      2) optional so it is only in effect when both the source and destination support it
      3) 'weak' so that there is not much performance impact, so there is no reason to disable it

      For sake of example, half of an xtea key can be sent by the SYN using the TCP options field and the other half provided by the server in the ACK. If the server doesn't return its half then no encryption takes place. The key is permuted by the data sent/received.

      This simple scheme provides that anybody examining the TCP steam must have seen the first packets and must have followed the entire conversation, decrypting it along the way. There is no extra step involved that could introduce delays, and the state and CPU time is small enough to be not important to the end user or server. However, for anybody to wholesale monitor traffic, for whatever reason, it means they need a lot of expensive hardware. What ends up as 1% of your CPU time to decrypt a torrent requires a warehouse of servers to decrypt everybody's torrents.

      A system like this has a huge advantage over tor, freenet, etc, in that everyday normal people can have it enabled by default, especially for open-source linux, *bsd distros. The actual anonymizing networks are worthless because only those with something to hide use them, or people who are hard-core idealists (which probably also gets you on some kind of 'watch list'). Ironically, this kind of system will raise the overall cost of monitoring to a point where tor, freenet, i2p, etc become viable.

    8. Re:A few more features they could add by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most of the names in Eureka Seven were mash-ups of famous musical artists or scientists, so I assumed that when they used Greg Egan it was another mashup. Apparently the real Greg Egan had some input into the storyline of the anime when it came to theories of the end of the world.

      And while I'm not a lunatic when it comes to watching anime, currently there are quite a few shows that have higher quality storylines and characters than the normal slop they throw on TV in the US. The mainstream stuff is usually bad, and it gives the genre in general a bad stereotype, so it always pays to find something good.

    9. Re:A few more features they could add by EdIII · · Score: 1

      TCP steam

      But that does not occur in a properly air conditioned environment........

      Be gentle, it's my first day as a Spelling Nazi...

    10. Re:A few more features they could add by EdIII · · Score: 1

      I predict your death in 5....4.....3.....2.....1

      Seriously though, those are some AWESOME ideas. However, I think the idea that the government would not be granted automatically "full" permissions on the data, and they would have no ability to identify the people using it, or basically have any level of control over it.... would be extremely undesirable. That is, of course, an understatement.

      I could just be cynical and paranoid (truthfully it is not could) but your ideas will probably never see the light of day or actually be embraced by appropriate legislation.

      At least with the medical systems. I mean seriously... who the FUCK gets PAID? With your system there are not billion dollar contracts to private corporations to create unwieldy proprietary systems that can be easily abused by anyone. When you look at it that way, your idea only appeals to the PATIENTS. We know how far that will go. Like a fart in church....

      President Obama is trying to revamp the whole medical data $*%$storm that exists right now in the U.S. Your idea is truly worthy for consideration in an ideal world.

      It all relies on the open standards for the info and privacy protocols, and on the confidence of the person to put their info into a secure, encrypted, and non-owned virtual internet location.

      That is easier than you think. If everyone had a device in their house hooked up to the Internet and it was understood that it was their "Data Vault" it would make it a lot easier to get a mental grasp of what it is doing for them. The truth is, that part of their data really *could* be on that device, or on any number of others. In fact, I don't see any reason that continued use, or preferential caching, of the data could not ensure that it would not be present on their local device at all times. In such cases, the device itself might be unhooked from the Internet, but still respond to your requests for data that happens to be cached locally.

      P.S - I don't like FaceBook (hate actually) because I am a privacy nut. The idea that my name can be attached to a photo and be used by someone is very concerning to me. So I would never even dream of using MySpace/FaceBook in a million years. However, I am really attracted to your idea since the photograph itself can be affected by permissions and require my consent to anybody wishing to view it. It's a nice feature.

    11. Re:A few more features they could add by Threni · · Score: 1

      As someone with an open mind, but who thinks that every single instance of what's been described as anime I've seen so far sucks, I'd be very interested in a few recommendations of stuff that's not going to waste my time cementing this belief.

    12. Re:A few more features they could add by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 1

      I'd first recommend using MPC-HC (http://mpc-hc.sourceforge.net/) for viewing the .mkv files that most anime torrents use. Also boxtorrents is a good source of finding quality releases.

      I can't give something that I know would definitely please you, as I don't know what type of person that you are or what you like, however I can try.

      I've personally enjoyed every anime that had the english dub's main actor to be Steve Blum. He's done voice acting for hundreds of video games and anime,and a few cartoons, like Megas XLR. Look him up on IMDB sometime.

      Out of those anime, I can definitively recommend Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop.

      He was also in Ghost in the Shell, FLCL, GTO, S-Cry-ed, and Trigun....which I liked alot, but I wouldn't recommend any of them for a first-timer. Akira is also a famous movie he was in, but most newcomers don't enjoy it (read up on the blu-ray restoration process of it to learn that it actually pushes the blu-ray spec to its limits).

      I also seem to enjoy William Knight's voice, and they were in alot of the same anime.

      In addition to those two actors, some other anime that I've watched and would give an 8/10 or better include Eureka Seven (after the first 13 episodes), YuYu Hakusho (28 episodes for each season for 25$ at Best Buy, for a total of 4 seasons), Full Metal Panic, Gundam Wing (old skool), Gundam 00 (1080i, and subtitles are better imho), and Bokurano (only subtitles available, but a damn interesting plot). But I would still start out with Samurai Champloo or Cowboy Bebop. I should also recommend Deathnote, as it seems to have grabbed a huge following in the US and made alot of fans of anime.

      I probably pick half subtitled and half dubbed, but I figure that you would probably enjoy a dubbed series more as a first-timer. I used to run the anime section of tv-links.co.uk back in the day, so if you need any further advice or assistance you know where to find me now.

    13. Re:A few more features they could add by Vu1turEMaN · · Score: 1

      I should have added this before, but this is how I look at an anime: If you believe that the voice actor's voice fits the character good enough to make them a believeable character, then there's no difference between this person and a real actor. After that, its how much of the story and overall plot you enjoy, much like going to the movies to see one of your favorite actors.

      You could also compare it to shopping for a netbook. While almost all of them have identical features, the one thing that is completely different on every one of them is the keyboard. Once you find a keyboard you like, you can then decide if the computer it is attached to is also enjoyable.

  10. Terror is WHAT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Terror is many one"? What is THAT supposed to mean?

    Sheesh, Slashdot tags are getting more and more obscure every day...

  11. Is speed really your concern? by girlintraining · · Score: 1

    Okay, you want a faster network that doesn't have multiple layers, encryption, etc.? Fine -- use the NSA, CIA, FBI, DHS, ABC, NBC, LMNOP supported and approved network. Sorry to break it to you guys, but a global, multinational, digital, and public communications network is going to have interests on it you aren't going to like or want to see what you're sending. This is true no matter who you are. That's the nature of a PUBLIC communications network. Suck it up. Our governments inability to protect our rights, combined with the corporate and multinational interests killed so-called freedom. Now we have to pay a premium to have it back.

    Be glad speed is the only thing you're losing in this deal. Historically, you stood to lose a whole lot more for these kinds of innovations. Like your life.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Is speed really your concern? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry to break it to you guys, but a global, multinational, digital, and public communications network is going to have interests on it you aren't going to like or want to see what you're sending.

      You mean, like the phone network does?

    2. Re:Is speed really your concern? by flameproof · · Score: 1

      Suck it up.

      Agreed. With the stipulation that we (the public), after having sucked at that bitter teat, aught to move on to something better or at least different, ie, a network which is totally uninvolved with or connected to the "internet" as it is now known. It's not like now that the majors have a hold on this one that they'll be letting go of it any time soon, ehy?

      What that would be, look like or how it would act or be implemented I have no idea of (which is kinda' why I hang out here); just the basic concept of, "Well, we colonized the hell out of this island, let's move on, shall we?"

      --
      ~Just as a thing fails if it lacks a kernel, so too it fails if it lacks a skin. ~ Rumi, Discourses
  12. ISPs will cut you off anyway by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

    The question should be how slow is it compared to the speed experienced after the ISP shuts you off

    Since most ISPs are now metering (and arguably DRMing) by GB transferred rather than just going by bandwidth, the same thing will happen anyway.

  13. If I was in charge of the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would make sure to create (covertly of course) a whole bunch of these I2P, Tor like projects. And of course infiltrate all the existing ones. Finally I would make sure we had our own botnet based high speed Tor. (Whoops! I forgot to post this via Tor! Black and silent helicopters approaching...)

  14. Related to Freenet? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Sounds like its similar, does it also encrypt its local store?

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Related to Freenet? by FreenetFan · · Score: 5, Informative

      I2P doesn't do data storage like Freenet.

      I2P only encrypts and anonymises the transport. It's up to you to host the services on your machine. I2P just means people can use those services (e.g. a webserver) without knowing who is hosting them, and without you knowing who is accessing them. IF you go off-line, your service goes offline too.

      Freenet, on the other hand, does have an encrypted and distributed data storage layer. You can go off-line and your website will remain available.

    2. Re:Related to Freenet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      distributed data storage is cool for articles and news and such, but for the forseeable future, you will always need webservices like irc servers and bittorrent trackers. In that end, freenet is severely lacking.

    3. Re:Related to Freenet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lower latency one-to-one streams, via tunnels, are tentatively planned for freenet but not anytime in the immediate future.

    4. Re:Related to Freenet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As former freenet user (0.5) which dislikes the politics of the current version (0.7 I think) I can compare both networks. Torrent downloads seem to have the same slowness at i2p like file offers do at freenet but communication is reasonable faster at i2p, there is even a messenger available but I don't use it because I don't need it and yes i2p lacks a permanent storage like freenet has which was a big advantage to have it at i2p, too. On the other hand I don't really miss it. When things go well, I can get all I wish and they do go well.

      Both networks, i2p and freenet hide my actions with strong encryption, invisible to others, invisible to my isp, hidden from luas. Not hidden is the fact that I am using it but "they" can't tell, what the hell I am currently on. Both i2p and freenet serve an internal network which is only visible to their users, both networks anonymize their users, so you stay being anonymous unless you cowardly expose your identity yourself.

      People who like a small community which lives, which is being developed, populated with people who join work the one or other way will love i2p. It is an amazing experience I love to share.

      Those people who need to hide should take a look, too. Scam people are welcome but encounter the same problems as everywhere else, so take a look and behave.

  15. My Vision by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    My vision is to create, first of all, a network where any node can connect to any other node (unlike the current Internet, which has been infested by NAT).

    Then, on top of that network, various interesting services can be built, including one that provides anonimity.

    In interface, it could all be compatible with current IP networks, so that existing software can be used for it.

    Does such a network exist already?

    I've made some baby steps in implemeting one myself, but without much progress. One difficulty I've run into is that I can't seem to get tap devices to work (i.e. create something that looks like a network interface and then process the packets that go over that interface in my software). I get the device created and set up, but I'm not seeing any traffic on it.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:My Vision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like IPv6.

    2. Re:My Vision by sopssa · · Score: 1

      http://anonet.org/

      Over all the other implementations of anonymizing networks that I've tried I like anonet the most. Basic idea is that you turn VPN on and the tap device does routing around the network. Everyone on the net is currently from 1.0.*.* or something like that range, and you can connect with them with those ip's. The traffic gets routed on the network. This implementation is also compatible with all existing programs (http, mirc, ftp, torrents work all great) and you can host websites too ( theres some listed on the site, like irc net on 1.1.1.1 , http://wiki.ano/ google variant for anonet http://search.ano/ etc )

      You might like to try that, unlike with the other weird interfaces and not-too-comfy usage of anonymizing networks, anonet feels nice and interesting to use. It was like another internet over the real one, but anonymous. You can just normally set up apache httpd or ftpserver and bind it to the anonet ip, you dont need specialized software. They also give you *.ano domain if you just ask.

    3. Re:My Vision by swilver · · Score: 1

      I see NAT as a very workable solution and definitely donot see any major downsides to it at all. I donot want more than one machine addressable directly. I know that with IPv6 everything that NAT can do is possible with IPv6 as well. I just donot see NAT as being such a bad solution that it can be used as an argument to push for IPv6.

      In the end, it will still be the same -- even if all my machines did have their own IP addresses, I'd be damned stupid to not set up one as a firewall/proxy for all the others. The end result is the same, you can only access one machine directly, and all the machines on the network go through the firewall/proxy with no client setup needed at all, just like it is now. Does it make initiating a connection from outside my network to one of the firewalled machines harder? Yes... exactly as I want it.

  16. No HTTPS support by thasmudyan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From their FAQ:

    Within I2P, there is no need for HTTPS, as all traffic is encrypted end-to-end.

    Sorry, I had to laugh a bit there. That's VERY naive. In anonymizing networks, HTTPS is the only thing that protects you from possibly corrupt exit nodes by encrypting the traffic between your browser and the destination webserver. To claim I2P doesn't need HTTPS support is misleading or at least ill-phrased.

    1. Re:No HTTPS support by vlm · · Score: 0

      Within I2P

      possibly corrupt exit nodes

      Those two things don't work together...

      What you did miss, is https also authenticates the site owner, assuming real signed certs, which admittedly seems kind of pointless for an anonymous network. As if citibank.i2p is really "the real citibank" aka citibank.com.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:No HTTPS support by GodKingAmit · · Score: 1
      I think you fail reading comprehension

      Within I2P, there

      Obviously they just mean when communicating to other I2P servers, not entering into the public internet (which would use an "exit node")

    3. Re:No HTTPS support by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      It's not pointless to route HTTPS through an anonymizer, because by doing that you still

      • circumvent censoring firewalls
      • hide the visited domain from your ISP's logs
      • hide your point of origin from the webserver's operator

      Besides, not having HTTPS integration breaks 2-protocol authentication schemes like Google's signon (believe me, I just tried).

      Also, I wasn't even talking about .i2p domains.

    4. Re:No HTTPS support by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      Sadly, no, I didn't fail. In fact, they failed at grammar when they chose to say "within". I just tried, they really don't support HTTPS through I2P, try it for yourself if you don't believe me. to make it absolutely clear: you can't connect to an HTTPS server with I2P. Period. The fail is not on my end.

    5. Re:No HTTPS support by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      This is I2P, not Tor. There are no exit nodes. The destination server is inside the I2P network. As stated in your own quote, the encryption truly is end-to-end, and HTTPS would consequently be redundant.

      It wouldn't even help for authentication, since these sites don't exist on the public Internet (they use a private .i2p TLD), and no certification authorities exist for such domains. What benefit you could get from a self-signed key is inherent in the I2P network itself, as endpoints are identified by their encryption keys.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    6. Re:No HTTPS support by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      I know that I2P nodes don't exist on the public internet, do I really sound that stupid? On second thought, don't answer that.

      Anyway, you're wrong, the destination server is not necessarily inside the I2P network and there are exit nodes (whatever they are called in I2P lingo, I don't care).

      Just install the thing and try it out. Please. You'll see that I'm right.

    7. Re:No HTTPS support by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      Or, to make it even clearer:

      Just like Tor, I2P has two modes of operation:

      • transfer data strictly within the I2P network (the .i2p TLP routing thing)
      • act as a proxy that makes connections to public webservers on your behalf and routes your data through the anonymizing network

      And, no, the second "mode" is not meaningless or unnecessary. In fact, it's the primary usage for this stuff. And as such, HTTPS support is pretty important for all the reasons I laid out in the other comments.

    8. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Within I2P, there is no need for HTTPS, as all traffic is encrypted end-to-end.

      Sorry, I had to laugh a bit there. That's VERY naive. In anonymizing networks, HTTPS is the only thing that protects you from possibly corrupt exit nodes by encrypting the traffic between your browser and the destination webserver. To claim I2P doesn't need HTTPS support is misleading or at least ill-phrased.

      Methinks you are a bit confused, unfortunately. As sibling posters have said, I2P has no exit nodes as Tor does.

      But beyond that, and more imporantaly HTTPS/SSL also fails with Tor's exit nodes, and would not be secure even if I2P had exit nodes:

      As Tor does not, and by design cannot, encrypt the traffic between an exit node and the target server, any exit node is in a position to capture any traffic passing through it which does not use end-to-end encryption, e.g. SSL. While this does not inherently violate the anonymity of the source, it affords added opportunities for data interception by self-selected third parties, greatly increasing the risk of exposure of sensitive data by users who are careless or who mistake Tor's anonymity for security.

    9. Re:No HTTPS support by thasmudyan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Methinks you are a bit confused, unfortunately. As sibling posters have said, I2P has no exit nodes as Tor does.

      It's not me who's confused, and sometimes it doesn't matter how many people keep insisting on wrong things, they are still wrong. Reality is not democratic.

      As sibling posters have said, I2P has no exit nodes as Tor does.

      Yes, it does. Do me a favor. Install I2P, change the proxy settings of your browser to localhost:4444 or whatever is configured after you start the service. You'll notice that you can, via randomly chosen exit nodes, access any HTTP URL. Now do a remote host lookup to confirm where your exit node is. This will be the moment you realize that you're wrong.

      HTTPS/SSL also fails with Tor's exit nodes

      No, it does not. In fact, the text you quoted proves you wrong right here: "any exit node is in a position to capture any traffic passing through it which does not use end-to-end encryption, e.g. SSL."

      See, Tor can (and does) route SSL traffic transparently between your target webserver and your browser. There is no technical reason I2P cannot do the same and I'm guessing that they simply haven't gotten around to coding that feature yet.

    10. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact, proxying out to the vanilla Internet may be your primary usage for "this stuff", but that doesn't mean it is considered the primary usage by the devs, or the rest of us who use it.

    11. Re:No HTTPS support by thasmudyan · · Score: 1

      In fact, proxying out to the vanilla Internet may be your primary usage for "this stuff", but that doesn't mean it is considered the primary usage by the devs, or the rest of us who use it.

      So that's what's left of your argument? In the light of your wrongness on technical grounds you are now essentially saying that my original concern doesn't matter anyway because "who would ever want to contact public servers"?

      *sigh* OK, I admit I'm talking about "normal" users here. If the original intent was to just create a P2P darknet, they wouldn't have bothered to build the exit node functionality into I2P in the first place (whose existence people in this thread so vehemently denied before it became clear that they were tragically mistaken).

      Come on, what's the deal? Just admit that HTTPS relay would be a meaningful addition to the protocol and leave it at that. Why the teeth mashing and hair pulling and why bother with all the techno-trolling in the face of obvious facts?

    12. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The parent is correct. I2P has randomized exit nodes for proxied HTTP. You can verify this at http://whatismyip.com. Also, your google & wikipedia searches will redirect to the french and german localized versions.

      As for https, my preliminary observation is that gmail is still working for me, but it might be bypassing the proxy setting in firefox. Don't know.

      It would be nice if the big torrent sites would include i2p torrents. i2p doesn't work with normal torrent clients, and i2p users can't access normal torrent files over i2p.

      It's a cool system. I don't care if it's not as fast as typical torrent stuff. I'll keep my client running to help others out.

      emotional friend

    13. Re:No HTTPS support by Mathiasdm · · Score: 1

      The fail is in fact on nobodies end. The reason https is 'not supported' is simply because nobody has set up an outproxy for it. If somebody does set up one, you will be able to use https.

      --
      Join the anonymous, help develop the network: http://www.i2p2.de
    14. Re:No HTTPS support by Mathiasdm · · Score: 1

      Yes, it would make a useful addition (lots of things would :P). We just need someone to set it up and it'll be there.

      --
      Join the anonymous, help develop the network: http://www.i2p2.de
    15. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > You'll notice that you can, via randomly chosen
      > exit nodes, access any HTTP URL.

      Not quite.

      You can, via a single "for demonstration purposes only" exit node, access any HTTP URL.

      For the purposes of a few people testing things out, one exit node counts as an exit node.

      For the purposes of everyone using it, one exit node counts as zero.

      (But yes, the capability is there.)

    16. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cannot be. Just reinstalled my copy of I2P, and checked the "i2ptunnel.config" file. The first entry controls HTTP outproxying and is like follows:

      # eepproxy
      tunnel.0.name=eepProxy
      tunnel.0.description=HTTP proxy for browsing eepsites and the web
      tunnel.0.type=httpclient
      tunnel.0.sharedClient=true
      tunnel.0.interface=127.0.0.1
      tunnel.0.listenPort=4444
      tunnel.0.proxyList=false.i2p
      tunnel.0.i2cpHost=127.0.0.1
      tunnel.0.i2cpPort=7654
      tunnel.0.option.inbound.nickname=shared clients
      tunnel.0.option.outbound.nickname=shared clients
      tunnel.0.option.i2p.streaming.connectDelay=1000
      tunnel.0.startOnLoad=true

      My conclusion: there is only one outproxy, and its name is "false.i2p".

      Its destination key, looked up from "hosts.txt", starts with "V5EeX" and ends with "DhfmYEGmSiAAAA". I'll refrain from quoting the whole 516-character key since the Slashdot site seems to think it's not polite. :)

      If you know of a second one, please let me know.

    17. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps this resolves the confusion?

      http://www.i2p2.de/faq.html#outproxy

      There are very few HTTP "outproxies", they are not an inherent part of the network, and they may not be up. In addition, the old outproxies squid.i2p, true.i2p, and krabs.i2p have vanished. The only outproxy at the moment is false.i2p. To use it, edit your i2ptunnel setting for eepProxy and set your outproxy list to 'false.2p' (only).

      But inside I2P, the destkey of an eepsite is stored locally after first use, and stored "forever". Destination keys of sites which matter (primarily name resolution sites) come with the installer.

      Now, since a destination key contains a full copy of a site's public encryption and signing keys, HTTPS is really not needed, and is the less secure option.

      With HTTPS, a malicious but widely trusted certificate authority can instantly engage in (or facilitate) grand forgery.

      In I2P, a name resolution server gone wild cannot affect names already resolved in the past: for these names, I2P nodes which used them already store the full destination keys, and won't even ask the name resolution server.

      A scenario to be addressed is how to protect new users from a malicious name server. Off the top of my head, I can only propose: automatically query many of them, and proceed with storing the key only if they agree.

      This is something which will hopefully be addressed in I2P.

    18. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The FAQ states that:

      Within I2P, there is no need for HTTPS, as all traffic is encrypted end-to-end. FTP is not supported for technical reasons.

      For HTTPS or FTP access to the regular internet, there are no HTTPS or FTP "outproxies". HTTPS is possible if somebody would like to set one up. FTP is probably not. Actually, just about any other sort of outproxy might work, try setting it up with a standard tunnel and see. As explained several times above, outproxies of any type are not a core part of the network, they are services run by individuals and they may or may not be operational at any given time. If you would like to set up some type of outproxy, carefully research the potential risks. The I2P community may or may not be able to help with the technical aspects, feel free to ask.

      Did you read the second paragraph?

      Next time you have to stop reading to laugh a bit, you should continue reading the rest of the answer before posting an inflammatory comment. Just a helpful suggestion.

    19. Re:No HTTPS support by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 1

      As for https, my preliminary observation is that gmail is still working for me, but it might be bypassing the proxy setting in firefox. Don't know.

      Indeed it is a shame, but HTTPS proxying seems not to be supported. This from Opera configured with localhost:4444 proxy for HTTP and HTTPS:

      I2P ERROR: NON-HTTP PROTOCOL
      The request uses a bad protocol. The I2P HTTP Proxy supports http:/// requests ONLY. Other protocols such as https:/// and ftp:// are not allowed.

      Generated on: Mon Apr 20 11:39:26 GMT 2009

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    20. Re:No HTTPS support by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      They didn't build exit node functionality into I2P; the outproxies (actually, the one outproxy currently active, false.i2p) are ordinary servers which you can access via the I2P network, the same as any internal webserver or e-mail host. If anyone wanted to run an HTTPS outproxy they could set one up; the I2P network supports that already without modification.

      For those who primarily want to access sites on the public Internet, the I2P developers explicitly recommend Tor over I2P.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    21. Re:No HTTPS support by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      So far as I2P itself is concerned, there are no exit nodes. Everything you can contact via the I2P protocol is internal to I2P (similar to Tor's .onion domains). Contrary to Tor, the I2P client software does not provide any outproxy service, by default or otherwise. Some people choose to run ordinary proxy servers which accept connections from I2P hosts and forward them to the public Internet. There are a very small number of these at the moment; I only know of one (false.i2p). They could just as easily proxy HTTPS if someone wanted to set up an HTTPS outproxy. There's nothing in the protocol that prevents it.

      Anyway, the original comment you were replying to was specifically conditioned on the destination site being within I2P. In that context HTTPS would, in fact, be redundant. If you connect to a public Internet site via an outproxy then you are no longer operating within I2P, and a different set of trust issues arise, issues which may justify the use of HTTPS.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    22. Re:No HTTPS support by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      Install I2P, change the proxy settings of your browser to localhost:4444 or whatever is configured after you start the service. You'll notice that you can, via randomly chosen exit nodes, access any HTTP URL. Now do a remote host lookup to confirm where your exit node is.

      Port 4444 is nothing more than a basic I2C tunnel to the sole I2P outproxy, false.i2p, as you can see for yourself if you take a look at the I2C configuration files. This proxy may route through multiple public IPs, but the proxy itself, in terms of ownership and I2P address, is not randomly chosen as it is in Tor.

      See, Tor can (and does) route SSL traffic transparently between your target webserver and your browser. There is no technical reason I2P cannot do the same and I'm guessing that they simply haven't gotten around to coding that feature yet.

      Indeed, there is no technical reason why you can't do the same over I2P as it exists right now. It's not that they haven't coded the feature; it's simply that no one has chosen to host an HTTPS proxy as of yet.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    23. Re:No HTTPS support by wa1king_ · · Score: 1

      From their FAQ:

      Within I2P, there is no need for HTTPS, as all traffic is encrypted end-to-end.

      Sorry, I had to laugh a bit there. That's VERY naive. In anonymizing networks, HTTPS is the only thing that protects you from possibly corrupt exit nodes by encrypting the traffic between your browser and the destination webserver. To claim I2P doesn't need HTTPS support is misleading or at least ill-phrased.

      As far as I know, I2P supports HTTPS tunneling. It's just that the guy kind enough to run a https-enabled outproxy in I2P hasn't present yet.

    24. Re:No HTTPS support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, no.
      I2P doesnt really deal that much wit outproxying. 'exit nodes' are run by 2 people on the i2p-net, and is a service they choose to provide.

      I2P is focused on the internal network and not really on outproxying ot the regular net. And therefor is a bit faster than tor internally. And a this moment a bit faster at outproxying.

  17. Sniffers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What are their countermeasures against sniffing exit nodes?

    1. Re:Sniffers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you *can* use i2p as a proxy to view the Internet at large via a few exit proxies, the real intent is to create and use sites and services within the i2p darknet, as all traffic therein will benefit from i2p's encrypted transport.

      Within i2p there is no exit node that sees your traffic in clear text.

      From the threat model document at i2p2.de (http://www.i2p2.de/how_threatmodel.html):

      "I2P has no entry and exit points - all peers fully participate in the mix, and there are no network layer in- or out-proxies (however, at the application layer, a few outbound HTTP proxies exist at the moment)"

  18. Secure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are they suggesting this is secure at all? The only thing this secures according to the information is the information in transit between proxies and between the user and the end proxy. After that it's all going to be regular plain text transmission.

    It would be trivial to setup one of these proxies and use something like wireshark to intercept the requests. If you are the last proxy stop (it sounded like they use multiple proxies) it's going to send the data to the server in plain text so you can record everything.

    I laughed at their reply to no HTTPS support as well. "Within I2P, there is no need for HTTPS, as all traffic is encrypted end-to-end."

    These guys seem absolutely clueless about security.

    1. Re:Secure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to think the point of i2p is to proxy to the Internet at large. This is not so.

      Since addresses within i2p are cryptographic keys themselves, traffic from you to your destination server is encrypted with that key, so there is no exit proxy that sees plaintext.

      Even the last machine in your tunnel between you and the server you're connecting to (assuming it is within the i2p darknet) will just be passing encrypted traffic that only the destination host can decrypt.

    2. Re:Secure? by Malcolm+Chan · · Score: 1

      Indeed. It seems that i2p is mainly a darknet. Access to the normal Internet seems not really to be encouraged.

      --

      /MC

    3. Re:Secure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not what darknet means. In a darknet, people connect only to people they trust. In I2P, you may connect to anyone, and potentially even everyone.

  19. Shut down paedophiles, not the distribution nets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will make much more sense to the (to be) victims.

    Also talking about anime and such non-documentary porno, I believe this is waste of time and tax resources to prosecute the distribution and consumption.

  20. Obligatory by Ghubi · · Score: 1
  21. BitTorrent on I2P by zubumufu · · Score: 1

    Yes, it is designed to handle high bandwidth protocols including, but not limited to, BitTorrent.

  22. Re:Still exclusively for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1 out of 3 of the BitTorrent trackers only allows legal porn, specifically no child porn. 1 out of 3 of the trackers does not allow porn at all. 1 out of the three is an open tracker, but there is currently no other indexing site. That means 3 out of 3 are not for paedophiles. Go away troll.

  23. Mmm... I choose... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Speed and Privacy. Thank you! :P

  24. Privacy tools needed for private communication by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's face it: Either tools are developed to enable private communication, or we're stuck with the panopticon state forever. In my view there's two types of tools that would be very useful:

    1. "One-Time Pad Chat" (OTPChat). Party A plugs in a USB key to load it with encryption codes. His chat program registers this. Party A gives this plug to party B, and a later date publicly tells party B his IP address. Party B transmits a start request using the first key on the list. Every message in the chat is then encrypted by a different key. These keys are wiped from party A and party B's USB keys as they are used, to make the messages unrecoverable. You should be able to get a whole lot of encryption keys on a 1gb disk.

    The way I envision this setup would be that you always see which of the "keys you have distributed" is being used by whom, you are able to see how much of each USB key has been consumed, you are able to erase keys in case they get lost, you are able to run the service invisibly on any port and only acknowledge connection requests when they are accompanied by the next key in the list.

    2. The second is more a concept: At the moment, governments must be assumed to have full oversight of all internet traffic. Even TOR is highly unlikely to be reliable - the number of servers on there are actually quite small, and considering that Germany can have 150 police officers involved in infiltrating a single political party, what would be the cost of some government simply funding 2/3 of all the servers? A few thousand dollars a month. Correlating transmissions would be extremely easy and it would surprise me if this is NOT the case already.

    At the same time, we must acknowledge that the primary need for secrecy is in communication. The need to anonymously burn DVDs, anonymously run game servers, anonymously run a BitTorrent tracker, is really secondary. Communication should ideally also include the ability to surf the internet, or to access 'information catalogues' (e.g. web pages and search engines) rather than only accessing secure storages directly.

    The problem we face however is that getting this level of secrecy is difficult and takes a good deal of IT skill. I'm not saying that it's impossible or even very hard, just that you need to know quite a bit about Linux and networking, or have someone you trust very well who does. This is a problem because many people who would appreciate being able to communicate securely may be good at different things than IT.

    I therefore propose something like a cut-down version of Linux on a DVD, ready to install. This should include full disk encryption and only open source software. Key is also software to monitor the file system and file accesses, effectively a "hypervisor", possibly in a hardware card. For example, easily track any changes to the file system, have a secure file storage area where attempts to read from are logged. Files should be one of three types: Either read-only (system files, and any software modules installed), temporary files (internet files etc, which are wiped on reboot) or document storage. It should be possible to wipe the system and reinstall without wiping document storage.

    I am not saying that this is currently not possible, just that anyone who wants to be able to have a secure PC and to communicate securely must be quite knowledgeable about IT. It should be possible to make this accessible to all.

  25. I have a dream... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I dream of a society where people (at least, the ones who have not been found guilt of serious crimes like mafia, terrorism, pedophylia) can walk down the streets with back masks over their faces, and this wouldn't be seen as a suspicious act, because anonymity would be seen as a fundamental right of the human being... I dream of TV channels where hosts and guests wear black masks, and do not try to appeal their audiences just with their fisical aspect, make-up, ecc..., but only with their arguments. Also, this would make shy people more willing to appear on TV (As an interesting psicological experiment, try to watch TV with the volume to 0, and tell me if it's not interesting to analyse human facial expressions and gestures, decontextualized from the content of their speeches. Human beings pay too much attention on how they look like, than what they say...). As a side question, do you know which is the most "anonymity-friendly" contry in the world? Maybe Austria? I recently read that in Austria you can put an advertisement on a newspaper, even a controversial one (like "no rent to black or muslim people"), and still there's no way for other people to know from the newspaper who put that ad... Despite all the dangers that it poses for misusage, anonymity should be regarded as a fundamental right of the human being...

    1. Re:I have a dream... by wa1king_ · · Score: 1

      There are limits.Its no good, when A punched B in the face, and quickly become anonymous. Racial discrimination can be tolerated when its personal, but not when its being advocated. the advocator should not evade its responsibility. I2P should be a balance and the absolute anonymity should not and will not ever exist.

  26. Bittorrent by HavocXphere · · Score: 1

    Now we just need some fools running bittorrent through this and then we can DDOS the entire internet. Yaaaa....

    1. Re:Bittorrent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is designed for protocols such as BitTorrent. In fact the default install includes a BitTorrent client.

  27. I am responsible for my node. by ACMENEWSLLC · · Score: 1

    Regardless that it is anonymous, in the end I am the one responsible for what my node does.

    What we really need to move towards is a disconnected Mesh network, where I am not providing Internet Access. My AP connects up with X other AP's in the area and we create a mesh. That's the network. Starts out small, like the Internet did. Eventually everyone ends up on the mesh network, too. I can access CNN because it's got a mesh address. My traffic flows from my AP through perhaps hundreds others to get to CNN wirelessly.

    True, today's speeds would impair this. Caching needs to be worked out. But this is where, IMO, the future is. No ISP fees. I pay for my AP and I'm online. I have a 1TB HDD cache. Content I get is SHA1'd and cached for others making the same request.

    This would allow anonymous access. We just need to build it. Seems something that could be built into DDWRT to me.

  28. I have a dream... by giuffsalvo · · Score: 1

    I dream of a society where people (at least the ones who have not been found guilty of serious crimes, like Mafia, Terrorism or Pedophylia) can walk around with black masks on their faces, and this wouldn't be seen as a bad thing, because anonymity would be seen as a fundamental right of human beings.... On a side question, which is the most "anonymity-friendly" country in the world? Maybe Austria? I recently read that there people can put ads on newspapers, even controversial ones (like "no rent to black or muslim people"), and the laws protect your right to not have your identity spoiled by the newspaper to third parties...

  29. Not true. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, I2P has no darknet feature at all. And is not really related to freenet.

    It's more like tor, but not focused on outproxying to the regular internet. So performance inside i2p is higher than performance inside tor.

  30. Not a datastore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These are interesting idea, but i2p has no datastore. It is _just_ an overlay network ontop of the internet coupled with some basic services like dns and irc.