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Stardock Declares Victory Over Demigod Piracy
We recently got a look at some hard numbers related to the piracy of Demigod , a new game from Stardock and Gas Powered Games. Now, two weeks later, Stardock CEO Brad Wardell has essentially declared the game a success in spite of the piracy, and reaffirmed the company's stance that intrusive DRM is a bad thing. The game's sales figures seem to bear him out. Quoting:
"Yep. Demigod is heavily pirated. And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off. If you're playing a pirated copy right now, if you're one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you're a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way. The reality that most PC game publishers ignore is that there are people who buy games and people who don't buy games. The focus of a business is to increase its sales. My job, as CEO of Stardock, is not to fight worldwide piracy no matter how much it aggravates me personally. My job is to maximize the sales of my product and service and I do that by focusing on the people who pay my salary — our customers."
He isn't gloating. He isn't saying they've beaten the pirates. He's saying the game is selling well despite them, and it is. There's a big difference.
Hey, come on now - he's a visionary standing up for our rights!
I don't care about the personality of the CEO, as long as he's providing me with DRM-free games I can play on any computer any time, without fighting with SecuCrap, ShitForce, or requiring a DVD.
The only thing I care about (as a gamer) is whether the game plays (excluding obvious stuff like the game should be fun :P ), and lately a lot of games just don't run. :/ I can't tell you how aggravating it is to buy a game, install it, and find out it crashes instantly with some error code related to the DRM.
Damn you EA. You suck.
Is it now possible to play a round without one guy with bad networking destroying the whole game?
Check out the huevos on Wardell!
lick the cancle button (at least thats what our Chinese QA says)
Won't something like Metcalfe's law also apply to games. The more people that play the game the higher the worth of the game. So while losing customers to pirated versions is bad (but I'd argue not too common and entirely unstoppable by DRM), gaining non-customers to pirated versions is actually good (not very good as you don't get any money) as it adds value to your game. In the case of multiplayer games this value is obvious (even if they can't play against legit version, they will help augment the community) and for single player games they may tell friends and eventually somebody they know who likes the game may pay for it.
It would be interesting if somebody could put a monetary value on pirated version (other than stupidly assuming every pirated copy is a lost sale)
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
He wasn't referring to you personally now, was he? There was an 'if' at the beginning of the sentence, and the man simply put his cards on the table...in straight English. Shouldn't be a problem for the rest of the crowd.
What should we be focusing on? Maximizing profit or maximizing game development? or in other words - producing games to live, or living to produce games? I know which future i want ... and i want it now!
Step 1. Make good games people like.
And that's it. Fuckin amazing how many companys worry so much about piracy. And they can't do step 1.
So software piracy makes him mad? His anger is misplaced and irrational. Might as well be angry that the sun rises in the east, water flows downhill, and bears do their business in the woods. Copying is a fact of nature, and we will never get everyone to agree not to do it, nor would we want to. Seek out another business model, or suck it up and live with the current awful one.
But he's so mad that he blunders and calls pirates thieves. Isn't there a single advocate of so-called intellectual property rights who doesn't make the "copying = theft" mistake? Speeding does not a thief make, and neither does copying. He should instead be ecstatic that there are enough people willing to donate to keep his business in the black.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
I dunno, I'm still annoyed. I bought GalCiv and all the expansion packs because 1) they are great games and 2) because they were not copyprotected.
Later on they snuck online-hardware authentication into the game. So if they go out of business, and I upgrade to a new computer, I lose the games I bought.
That pisses me off to no end since this exactly the reason why I've still not played games like BioShock (due to the DRM).
So StarDock is in no way the champion that they were in earlier days.
Games are easy to make. Gpogle for 'flash games' and you'll find 100,000 crappy little card games and Tetris clones. Good games are HARD to make. It costs real time from people with real talent who need to be paid in real money. The problem is that the costs of developing a game are not connected to the cost of replicating the game. The first copy of the game costs 5 million dollars. the second copy costs 4 cents.
Piracy isn't an issue until it's so rampant that those with the money choose to pirate anyway.
Would you pay 4 dollars to see a matinee? Would you buy a scifi novel for 6 bucks? Try comparing the time you spend enjoying each of these to the time you spend on a video game, and you'll find that the 40-50 dollars spent on a good game is surprisingly cheap!
I bought GTA San Andreas a long time ago. (years?) I picked it up again this last weekend and got another afternoon of fun out of it!
Don't be at all hesitant to buy a good game, even if you have a playable pirate copy - it's insurance for more fun in the future!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
If you like what he's done, you ought to contact the company and let them know how you feel. We complain enough here on slashdot, sometime it's nice to be positive for a bit as well. We ought to encourage those who do cool things.
Qxe4
I'm not sure how this company can say they sell plenty of copys despite DRM, and that they don't use DRM. I personally bought demigod and they use Impulse (Steam basically) which I was forced to install on my pc and authenticate by phoning home to play online not to mention I have to keep this 3rd party app open if I wish to ever play. Demigod is really only a multiplayer game. your options for single player are playing against bots. The pirates playing on hamachi are probably minimal for the same reason few people play dota on hamachi to get around a wc3 cd key. Also I should add that when I bought this game I couldnt even logon for 3 days, because the cdkey in my package was in use (This seemed to be an issue for MANY people) and I had to send about 7 emails to tech support and take pictures of my friggen case and cd to prove I wasn't a "Pirate"
Especially when it comes to one's own product. It usually just encourages people to find ways to prove you wrong...........
Or corporations. Gamestop in this case. Although they were probably more motivated from a hissy fit at stardock daring to release it online, cutting out them as a middleman, when gamestop has faithfully treated PC games like garbage.
His argument for a long time has been that copyright infringement sucks, but it happens protections or not. However protections piss off your legit customers. Thus, since they don't stop copying and do piss off the people that pay, don't do them.
I think this is quite a good attitude. I mean yes, people copied the shit out of Demigod. People copy the shit out of most anticipated new releases so that shows nothing other than people are interested in the game. The interesting title to compare it to would be Spore. Spore was much more highly anticipated, however it had real whiz bang copyprotection: SecuROM 7 including online activation. To hear the talk on it, you'd think this was your 100% anti-copying solution. All sorts of nifty encryption and obfuscation and you have to connect to an online server! Ha, beat that shit pirates!
The result? A torrent with 5 digits worth of peers active on it on the Piratebay when it came out. Ya THAT was real effective.
So Demigod got copied all over, but still sells well and they spent $0 on copyprotection and didn't piss off legit customers with it. Spore got copied all over, and they spent a non-trivial amount on protection and pissed off customers.
I don't know how it'll all play out in the end. What I know is that I do own Demigod, and I do not own Spore. SecuROM 7 games can get fucked IMO. I don't play the limited activations thing. I like to be able to upgrade and reinstall my system, and I like to be able to play my games 10, 15, 20 years later (I still play Xcom).
> The reality that most PC game publishers ignore is that there are people who buy games
> and people who don't buy games.
Thats what always puzzled my about filesharing haters: Why _do_ some of them bother at all, if they make enough money, that somwhere on the other side of the world, maybe also on some other planet, two people he never knew and will never know shared their stuff?
> accept that you're a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way.
And promptly, he delivers the answer himself. Just another delusionist trying to shoehorn the planet into his business model. Copying a piece of information from your neighbor is not a theft. Yes, you do get something for nothing, but thats the whole freaking point of a copying machine. Endless supply for everybody. It does not automatically imply (although he would undoubtely like the thought) that you suddendly owe the creator of the original "as if" the piece was a physical product which cost money to produce. You first have to bend your mind heavily, internalize this "as if" concept almost religiously (which happens automatically if "as if" would make you money) in order to overlook the difference. The copying machine works only one way. Yet, the delusionists still think that the money (i.e. the wealth) they should get in exchange for providing input pieces to the copying machine has either to be multiplied at the same rate (i.e. an astronomical one, no less), or else the copying machine has to be smashed in order to _not_ bring wealth to everybody.
"after 20 years of experiment, practically all arguments are now against the internet."
The quote (that didnt fit into the subject line) is a conclusion from a recent article by one of germanys largest newspapers (Frankfurter Allgemeine), which is usually known for lobbying heavily for tougher IP laws. I always knew our grandgrandgrandfathers were right back then! General Ludd was the man! Lets finally get breaking some damn copying machines again!
As I see it, pirating a game is only excusable if you're doing it to try it, after which you either buy it or stop playing.
Just recently I did this with Galactic Civilizations II - I downloaded it, played it for a while, liked it, went out and purposefully bought the game: Stardock got another sale when, had I not had a chance to check the game, they would have gotten nothing (I don't trust the industry - been burned once too many by some of the over-hyped turds they put out)
Way too many games out there come out not working well or not at all. The game reviews press is no help at all - they'll give glaring reviews to games which are pretty enormous turds, and conveniently forget about the bugs and lack of long term playability.
In my view, it's not at all morally reprehensible to pirate a game for testing - as long as you buy it if you keep playing it.
EA are actually one of the lesser offenders since recent months. They seem to have got the hint and are dropping the level of DRM (iirc there's a couple of games they're trying with no DRM) and have released DRM removal tools for other existing games.
Other publishers like Activision are still just as bad, and the king of DRM right now is probably Valve with Steam, that said, EA look like they're going to release their DRM free games on Steam anyway which means they'll inherently have Steam's DRM so I suppose they're not doing away with DRM altogether.
The problem for consumers, and the benefit for games publishers of Steam is that it kills the second hand market and forces the requirement of internet access, of course the latter isn't much of an issue for most people nowadays.
Bears don't do 'business' in the woods.
Bears do, however, shit in the woods.
Just, y'know, when people start cringing from /language/, then we truly are doomed.
I agree.
Neverwinter Nights 2 was the biggest disappointment I've had in a game during the last few years. Since NWN 1 was such a blast; an old group of friends who played D&D together years before got it near the release date but since the game paused for everyone as soon as one player talked to an NPC. It made the experience hard to enjoy.
Some feats in the manual weren't included in the game it shipped with (volley).
Demigod? This game rocks so far from what I've played - 3 days straight.
The game is well-balanced and the style of rpg/strategy is very refreshing. They have an amazing start to a game that I hope they continue to support so a strong community develops.
They just need to add a few more features;
-Replays
-Multi-player Game Filtering (like TF2)
-Tutorial / Single-Player Campaign that introduces each Demigod
-Ability to click on the minimap to zoom the screen to that location
Did I miss any features that should be included? (perhaps in a patch)
He used the term thief:
thief, noun,
a criminal who takes property belonging to someone else with the intention of keeping it or selling it.
which by it's definition doesn't apply in this situation.
I'll accept the use of the word piracy as it has widespread use as relating to copyright infringement but I do think it's rather ridiculous to compare copying data to theft and murder on the high seas.
...and that is all I have to say about that.
http://jessta.id.au
This is absolutely correct.
Maybe this is flamebait because Brad Wardell has been posting a lot of information about the networking problems they had, how they didn't found them during beta and what they are doing about it.
In the first week, there was an update at least once a day, and even now he's still keeping the players updated about how far along they are, answering questions on the forum and helping players with connection problems.
You are so right on that the on-line for demigod is worthless. I have tried multiple times, during and pre prime time, and have never been able to get into a game.
For a game that is almost all on-line, single player gets really boring after a few plays, that the on-line setup are so bad is something that should of been fixed before they shipped.
So Demigod got copied all over, but still sells well and they spent $0 on copyprotection
Impulse?
I like to be able to upgrade and reinstall my system, and I like to be able to play my games 10, 15, 20 years later (I still play Xcom).
Better hope Impulse is around that long.
Stardock WAS the beacon of DRM-free games until Impulse came along.
Now they're just another STEAM. But for some reason everybody thinks they're still DRM-free.
Seriously, this stance on DRM is like the RMS stance on openness "Unless everything is 100% my way, no compromise it is WRONG!"
No, Demigod isn't DRM'd. The DVD is a standards compliant DVD with no trickey shit. The game installs and runs with no checks of any kind.
Online play requires authentication and use of an online server? Oh well stop the presses I mean that hasn't happened with except, well, maybe every online game ever. As to if something like that is DRM is rather a semantic argument. Sure it does require a legit copy, but then the anti-DRM stance was never supposed to be about being allowed to illegally copy things, now was it? Needing to log in to a central server to play is a feature many games have simply for player convenience. Heck I remember when Gamespy first got started it was because the whole decentralized server thing with games like Quake was a problem. How did you find people to play with? So there was a 3rd party "central server" created that all the distributed servers talked to. Newer games are just having their own central service.
Finally no, you needn't run Impulse to run the game. Impulse has it's little "Impulse now" thing that it likes to run, but all that does is check for patches. Shut it down if you like (there's an option to tell it not to load on startup). You can run the game without Impulse, or without a net connection for that matter.
The point here is that if you are going to cast things like having a CD key and using a central matching service in the same category as SecuROM and such, then you are effectively making you definition of DRM meaningless and running off in to zealot territory. The reason you should, as a gamer, be anti-DRM is because it makes games not work. Like you take these recent games with SecuROM that you can only install 3 times, ever. After that, you are done. THAT is DRM and that is a problem. Wanting you to have an account on their online play service to play online is not DRM.
Gamers need to be a little reasonable here because remember, as with all things, there is a balance of rights. Yes, you should have the right to buy a game and play that game for as long as you want in the way you want. You shouldn't have some DRM program getting mad because you installed it too many times or because it doesn't like your CD drive. However the developers have rights too. They have a right to try and make sure people aren't illegally copying their game, and they certianly have a right 0ot make sure those people who do illegally copy it can't make use of the services the company provides for it. It shouldn't be an all or nothing situation on either side.
I'd liken it to freedom of speech. Yes, you have the right to freedom of speech, however your right to freedom of speech can't interfere with my right to freedom of association. What that means if you are free to speak your mind, but not in my living room if I don't want you to. I am free to ignore what you say. Yes, that does limit your rights in a small way. You don't have the right to force me to listen to your views, however that is a necessary limit on your rights to preserve mine and one I think we can all agree is reasonable.
So you need a balance in games rights too. Demanding no DRM is fine when DRM means "Shit that interferes with rights I should have." Demanding no DRM is not fine when DRM means "Anything you do that I don't approve of."
I submit that the whining about initial piracy drove traffic to their site and got a lot of peple who had never heard of the game to download and buy it.
It worked for World of Goo and that guy who did the shitty management games, so Stardock just wanted to get some of that.
This sort of PR coup is not a sustainable business model.
Is it now possible to play a round without one guy with bad networking destroying the whole game?
Using GameRanger to play Demigod online made this possible from the start. The problems only occurred when you used their matchmaking infrastructure, Impulse.
GameRanger - multiplayer gaming service for PC and Mac games
Because a feature of a game is broken justifies pirating it?
You did exactly what he stated, you used whatever inane reason you could find to justify being a thief.
In other words, you declared yourself a victim and decided upon restitution you deemed appropriate, which apparently is that stealing other people's property is ok if it has a bug. What's next ? Unacceptable box art?
Game companies, actually any software company, do not have to attain a defensible position in regards to not wanting to have their products pirated.
What it really comes down to is that thieves will always find some justification. As soon as the their condition is met they will invent a new offense and thereby justify their continued thievery.
sorry, but your post sucks and that it was rated insightful is a disgrace to those of us who do programming for a living. I can't meet your high standards because they don't exist in any form that can be quantified thereby meaning anything I produce you want you will just take.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
No, Demigod isn't DRM'd.
And in the very next paragraph:
Online play requires authentication
You're full of it.
If the game requires any form of authentication to unlock any significant functionality then it's DRM'ed. End of story.
It has nothing to with RMS. Nothing to do with zealotry. It's DRM. That's "Digital Rights Management".
You can try rationalizing the DRM all you like whilst pretending that somebody can still "buy" the game but you know full well that when somebody doesn't have control of their own keys it's just another form of rental.
Some people are happy to rent. Many aren't, no matter how hard the marketers and assorted astroturfers try to dissemble.
---
Adopt an astroturfer. Make their life hell.
Huh? What?
You (or someone) thinks a game has a horribly broken feature A and therefore thinks it's ok to pirate the shit?
Excuse me but just as the quote says, you're trying to rationalize your thiefing.
If you think game is broken piece of crap, don't buy it. It doesn't give magically give you right to ignore copyrights and pirate it.
...the horribly broken multiplayer in Demigod is an example of exactly why many people choose to pirate games rather than pay upwards of $90 (in Australia, equivalent in your local currency) for broken software.
Stardock recommended GameRanger precisely because of the major multiplayer problems with Demigod's built-in matchmaking. The game's multiplayer itself played just fine through GameRanger. It's safe to say there would have been a lot more refund requests otherwise, and it took some of the heat off Stardock while they tried to address the problems.
They even added a download button for GameRanger on their Demigod page right next to the Impulse one.
GameRanger - multiplayer gaming service for PC and Mac games
1. Good games always sell good. It's a no-brainer conclusion that just seems to evade some game developers. There are numerous cases of games with no or little protection selling quite well despite being easy to pirate.
2. I would even consider buying Demigod if it wasn't a paying bad imitation of DotA. DotA as a map is free. Looking at the amount of content available in a free map (I've had Warcraft 3 and Frozen Throne for years now), Demigod is piss-poor copy with no rational reason to give money for less content.
You've taken a good concept, and tried to make money on it (despite not being able to copy the quality). So, be happy that your game sells at all.
because it's likely to attract flames?
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
(IMHO) Is that this game didnt have (or hasnt yet) a global release.
I cant buy this game legally until the 15th May!
I didnt even know it existed until the first Slashdot story about its initial piracy. (ok, so thats possibly my fault).
I do wonder if the fact that it cant be bought in the UK has had any effect on the number of 'pirates' in this region.
So unless you have full control over THEIR servers, it's DRM? Anti cheating measures? DRM! unique usernames? DRM! not allowing incompatible out of date versions on the server? DRM!
It is exactly about RMS Zealotry. When you're connecting to an eternal server, it's no longer about your software, it's now their server and their software and the user doesn't have any automatic rights to it.
DRM is about your software and your PC. Not about services provided on someone else's systems.
1. "I bought GalCiv ... they were not copyprotected."
okay, got it, what you bought was not copyprotected... you can install it, play it, and nothing gets in your way.
2. "Later on they snuck online-hardware authentication into the game."
I suppose that's by means of an update or something of the sort... okay, with you so far...
3. "So if they go out of business, and I upgrade to a new computer, I lose the games I bought."
and here you lost me, at least on technical grounds.
If at point 3 you can no longer play the game from point 2, could you still play the game from point 1? I presume that you can.
You'd have to argue that the game at point 2 is still the game from point 1 - and I'd argue that it isn't ; what if the developer went bust immediately after launch? you wouldn't have gotten any updates for point 2 to exist.. but you could still play the game from point 1.
So if point 3 should happen, nothing happened to the game you bought - you've still got it from point 1. You can't play it with the updates from point 2, but presumably you didn't buy those updates*.
Doesn't make what you mention any less troublesome - but in terms of what would happen to the games you purchased, in this case? Presumably not a whole lot.
=====
* Though more and more it seems that an implied part of the cost of purchasing a game is the 'privilege' to download major bugfix patches, often through some major gaming portal that will ditch that patch after a year or so and you have to hunt around to find the patch elsewhere.
It is not good business of IP publishers to turn their customers into casualties of the battle against copyright infringement. Furthermore, it is not the fault or failure of the customers that copyright infringement occurs and they are the absolutely LAST people who should be inconvenienced or penalized in any way for the actions of others.
By imposing unreasonable controls and limits on those who pay legitimately, they are only harming those who pay legitimately.
To do anything less than honor and respect your customers is the wrong approach to the problem of copyright infringement since they are the furthest people from the problem.
So unless you have full control over THEIR servers, it's DRM?
I didn't say that. Stop dishonestly pretending I did.
Anti cheating measures? DRM! unique usernames? DRM! not allowing incompatible out of date versions on the server? DRM!
That's it, dishonestly try to muddy the waters.
DRM is about your software and your PC. Not about services provided on someone else's systems.
When your software is deliberately locked to a system you don't control for the purpose of controlling your use and significant functionality in the game can only be accessed with that system's approval then it's DRM.
If the user can run their own server (as many early games did), thus allowing them to access that significant program functionality without being controlled, then you might have a point.
---
Adopt an astroturfer. Make their life hell.
You're full of it.
If the game requires any form of authentication to unlock any significant functionality then it's DRM'ed. End of story.
HE'S FULL OF IT?
Anyways, Demigod requires online servers to unlock functionality. Are those online servers DRM?
Because if they aren't, then anyone who sets up their own server (they're out there), has unlocked that functionality.
At the end of the day, you just seem like you don't want to participate in a capitalist society, and I have to wonder, what are you doing in the US?
You're right that if copyright infringement is wrong, something like bugs at launch don't suddenly override this. However, if one doesn't believe copyright should even exist, then nitpicks like this have more force.
And yes, it's perfectly possible to make a decent living as a programmer without the existence of copyright. I don't feel personally aggrieved by copyright infringement. I try to stay out of businesses where a company depends on copyright for its existence.
I'm a notorious pirate. I even pirated my way into the Demigod beta! But I always buy games I like, and thanks to GameStop breaking the streetdate, I was able to buy Demigod before it was supposed to come out.
But now, I wish I hadn't bought it at all. The game is great; my friend and I would be addicted to it if the 30-40 minute games we play justified the hour it takes us to get in a game together.
We get numerous errors trying to connect to game lobbies (Demigod uses p2p, not server host/client). Even connections that work can take up to five minutes. Sometimes the game crashes (a new patch caused this chaos), and 75% of the time the game won't let you log in until you uninstall and reinstall Impulse, Stardock's "we wish we were Steam" software. Best part is, we don't even run Impulse with the game!
Many of our friends want to buy the game, but their systems won't run it without intense video lag, even though the system meets or exceeds the recommended settings. Even with all the graphics turned down.
Those of you wanting to try Demigod, I suggest you pirate it, since the game has no demo. But while you're playing it, sit as uncomfortable as you can, and make sure you sit at your desk doing nothing but slamming your head on your desk for at least thirty minutes before playing the game. That should recreate the experience for you.
Games are easy to make. Gpogle for 'flash games' and you'll find 100,000 crappy little card games and Tetris clones. Good games are HARD to make. It costs real time from people with real talent who need to be paid in real money. The problem is that the costs of developing a game are not connected to the cost of replicating the game. The first copy of the game costs 5 million dollars. the second copy costs 4 cents.
I would put that differently. I rather disliked Quake I and thought it was a crappy game after the awe over the (at the time) cool graphics wore off. It was just way to monotonous for my taste. Constant slogging through endless rows of monsters down endless hallways and every time you ran into a monster, the moment you shot at it two more would drop down behind your back and attack rip into your back. Now Duke Nukem on the other hand had lousy graphics but it was really fun to play because it had a funny plot with lots of silly things to do like getting health points by taking a piss. It had lots of open outdoor levels, all the cops were wild boars, you could bribe the strippers and at the end you actually got to crap down the über boss' neck while reading a newspaper. I don't think that either of these games was easy to make from a programmer's point of view.
The truly hard thing with games is coming up with a good concept and making a fun game, i.e. the toughest part of game production is artistic input that makes it fun to pay, not the programming or the eye-candy. Even the best game programmers and graphics artists on the planet can come up with a really cool 1st person shooter that is a technological and eye-candy masterpiece but so boring to play you retire the game after the first few of hours of game play which is what happened with me and Quake I, and Spore for that matter which was IMHO a steaming pile of crap. Now Half-Life, that's a good example of somebody that made a really good game with the Quake engine. Mind you Half-Life still looked crappy compared to the first installment of the Unreal series where the water effects in particular were (at the time) very cool but Half-Life was still a much better game than Unreal because of the artistic input, not because of the eye-candy.
They develop the games for a living so I suppose they want to get the money to live from it. They could have done all that work for free but they didn't (presumably because spending that much time on developing makes it hard to get money from other sources and at some point any human will want to have a decent life for himself).
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
3. "So if they go out of business, and I upgrade to a new computer, I lose the games I bought."
and here you lost me, at least on technical grounds.
If at point 3 you can no longer play the game from point 2, could you still play the game from point 1?
I bought the game as an electronic download. I also bought the expansion packs via electronic download. This all goes through the Stardock package manager.
At some point the protection was added (I don't know at exactly what date). Since it wasn't announced and no permission was asked, I have lost the version without copyright protection.
I also believe the expansions require a certain patch-level of the main game, so if I had a backup of the main game somewhere, I still be locked out of playing my expansions.
The point is, part of the reason why I _bought_ the games was the lack of any DRM. In their current FAQ about this issue it's stated somewhere along the lines "Aw c'mon.. it's not like we're asking a bloodsample or something. Our DRM is non-intrusive and easy. C'mon guy!". But my point in losing my games in care of bankruptcy is still valid as long as they keep using DRM.
Though more and more it seems that an implied part of the cost of purchasing a game is the 'privilege' to download major bugfix patches, often through some major gaming portal that will ditch that patch after a year or so and you have to hunt around to find the patch elsewhere.
This is an interesting point. However, most games only release bug fixes. Usually any substantial real content is released as a pay-for expansion.
Combine this with the attitude of most software companies that the user is now a glorified beta-tester, ("Aw, we'll fix it in a patch, lets release now and start raking in the cash."), and suddenly the argument of expecting free bug-fixes seems very reasonable indeed.
As a sidepoint. I also bought "King's Bounty: The Legend" because I loved the old "Might and Magic Heroes" games..
The damn disc won't even read in my computer! My laptop's drive reads it ok but lacks the hardware to run it. The disc it not scrathed or anything but it's the damn DRM they're using that locks me out. I had to wait for a crack to be release to play it because on the official forums the advice was "Your DVD drive is broken, go buy a new one", which is bullshit because all other discs I own read just fine. It's not even an obscure brand drive.
In short DRM is evil incarnate. I don't buy any games with DRM that is too restrictive. The fact that Stardock snuck it in later sucks balls.
Take Unreal Tournament as an example. After a reasonable time, they release unprotected executables via the regular patches.
Can't we just be happy they're still not going to use DRM? It seems good enough to me, whatever the reaoning.
i buy games i can pirate from stardock. i appreciate the lack of drm and besides, they make it easy. if i lose my cd case, who cares? i just downloaded galactic civilizations after like a year or two of not playing. i just log in and download it to any computer. i have copies of other games i threw away and never bought again because i lost the case and they made it too hard to get a new code.
I am in college. I don't have that much money. Maybe when I do have money I will pay for it. Regardless of why I steal I still think theft can be seen as a positive. If I like a game (did not pay for it) my friends who have some crazy notion of "morality" who I might tell about the game might buy it. I am one of those crazy people who believe that if you make something good someone will pay you for it (or you can make money off it). Oh I didn't steal this particular game (and am to lazy to login especially since I forgot my password).
F
Cheers to Demigod's developers for their decision to go with no DRM. I've not even played the game, but I'm glad to hear that one of the things that pushed me to console gaming is seeing a sunset. DRM has, in the past, forced me to go to a piracy site to find a cracked .exe file that will remove the necessity of having the dvd in the drive. Even this light form of DRM pushes me towards piracy instead of just letting me enjoy my purchase without having to haul a small stack of "play disc"s around in my laptop bag. In the several years I've been separated from PC gaming, it sounds as if the problem has only gotten worse.
Much of this leads me to believe that services like quakelive.com are getting a leg up on how games will be delivered in the future.
The correct term is theft.
I supply a product. You use it or take it without compensating me. You're a thief. Steal an apple, steal an idea, steal a game. Thief, thief, thief. You're hungry, I don't deserve to it, you want to play it for free. Still a thief, thief thief.
Why do people have such a hard time accepting this? Are we so coddled that we can't look ourselves in the mirror after we do something "bad". I wish people would stop using all these defense mechanisms so they can pretend they are good people, and just openly say it: I'm a cheapskate thief.
I think the approach Microsoft have taken in the past in China, if I remember correctly by offering to exchange an illegal copy of Windows for a cheaply licensed one if not free is the sort of strategy that the industry needs to look at. However the games and software market are a bit different so we can't treat this solution as universal - operating systems cost a lot more money to develop than a game, despite their rocketing costs. The Ultimate Steal promotion that Microsoft run for students to buy Office 2007 Ultimate for a reasonable price ~£40 is the way forwards, this enables one to actually think about the value they're getting instead of merely dismissing it as out of their price range. The normal version retails closer to £700. Likewise this last weekend gone by Valve have continued their great promotional pricing with the Orange Box at just under £6 on Steam - you cannot fail to pick that up. Valve are one of these companies however that add tremendous value to their games and the multiplayer element generally precludes pirates from being able to enjoy the experience as well. I remember about 6 months ago they also did a deal for the original Half Life on Steam for $1, I snapped that up too even though I've already got a legitimately bought copy of Half Life, albeit not on Steam. I think when faced with tremendous piracy that you're not going to get rid of you might as well attempt to reasonably convert those into actual sales. I do pirate a lot of things, but I also own many more things. I find that I will never generally buy a game on release for £30 - it just doesn't make sense when it's going to go down to the >= £15 mark a few months later. Games that are less than £10 I will consider buying as an impulse purchase. In short, the games market sadly need to look at their pricing. If we look at efforts like Wii Ware this is where we're going. Simpler more focussed games that cost less to produce and accordingly cheaper prices.
Wasn't part of the reason that the multiplayer component online suck was the load. They were equipped enough to handle the purchased users but the purchase users and the cheap people flooded the system.
All the hype surrounding the large number of pirated copies actually lead me to notice the game then buy it. So not all piracy leads to lost sales. I'm living proof.
I was one of those who hadn't heard about Demigod and when it came out I pulled down a copy, played it, bought it. Spore? I did want to buy it but ignored it as I ignore any DRM filled crap that's going to crap on my computer and my rights. You publishers can take those games and shove them where the DRM don't shine. If they're games I'd like to play perhaps I'll buy them for the Xbox360 after a year or so when the price is down - after all, you guys taught me how to be patient and not impulse buy something cause it looks good so thank you for that DRM asses. I'm also loving the ObjectDocks from Stardock - the free version does exactly what it says it's going to do and isn't a memory hog. Wow, who knew they could make products like that anymore? As for the Demigod game, I'm one that doesn't like to play online but this game can give me a nice game I can finish in a half hour like a casual game does. Perfect.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
The reason it was broken is because too many pirated copies were hitting the servers too early. Gamestop released the game early, then pirated copies were made and circulated. So before release, Stardock had production numbers hitting the servers that were set up for the beta. The production servers weren't scheduled to go online until the following week, but because of GameStop releasing early they had to push them out in rush fashion.
Funny, he's not suing anyone and deliberately left DRM out of the game. Oh, but to even MENTION that people pirating the game are assholes makes him a thug? No, saying that makes you a stupid asshole. Do you think it's a right to be able to pirate goods? Far be it from me to berate people for doing it (who hasn't?), but I'm not going to act like it's a right and how DARE someone say otherwise!
> Do you think it's a right to be able to pirate goods? Far be it from me to berate people for doing it (who hasn't?), but I'm not going to act like it's a right and how DARE someone say otherwise! Steering clear of your biased terms such as 'piracy', I would say that there is absolutely nothing wrong in making a digital copy of something. Nothing is being stolen. Try to think beyond the outdated copyright system you have been led to believe is 'correct'.
I have not played this game at all.
I might have tried it, but it didn't even look interesting.
Good to hear this piracy media threadmill worked out for you guys tho.
Piracy isn't thivery.
You can argue it's illegal and copyright infringement.
That person who downloaded it, but never would ahve bought it didn't cause you to loose a friggin' penny. In fact, if it's a good game they will talk it up.
Have you bothered to read the studies?
For the record, I buy my games becasue I can afford to; However I only do so after two things have happened:
1) After I ahve downloaded it ad tryed it. As a consumer I have had all my consunmer rights stripped awaty becasue of ass hats like you. As such I can't return a bad game. So I ahd better enjoy the first 5 hours or so or I jsut delete it and move on.
I am not alone in this, and I can argue that not being able to return bad games has hurt the industry a lot. I know I would probably blow off returning the occasional game; thus it stays a sale and doesn't become a return. Now there is no upfront purchase.
2) a "No-CD" fix has been released.
When I can buy a game, take it home deciede it sucks and take it back, then I'll stop torrenting games.
There is a market opportunity here for steam, btw.
let me download and play for 8 hours. and I mean 8 hours of play time, not sitting on my hard drive for 8 hours.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
But sometimes you're confident enough that people looking for ways to prove you wrong, still isn't a threat.
What could a "pirate" actually do, should one resent Stardock's sales? Write a persuasive "Open Letter to Stardock Customers" telling everyone that they should ask Stardock for a refund?
Pirates are totally powerless to have any impact on sales. They have never been an issue for any music, movie, book, or software vendor to date (and these business models have been around for several hundred years now). Somehow I really doubt that Stardock's "gloating" is going to make them the first counter-example in history, especially now that they already have the sales in the bank.
For all practical purposes, the only thing a pirate can do to harm Stardock, is engage in actual piracy, i.e. mug them at gunpoint to get the money out of their wallets.
Please, that is not the context they use the word and you know it.
They use the word to equate pirace with direct and immediate loss of money.
You want to get selective and ignore context? fine:
People who pirate give acknowledgment to that people who make the game. Clearly any one but a moron can see that number two is about taking credit and appropriate(ideas, credit, words, etc.).
SO it doesn't apply.
Also, you will always be number two to me.
Number three:
Could deleberitly butchered it in your quote and change what they were saying. Shame on you.
"or win insidiously"
i.e. cheat.
So it is not stealing, it's copyright infringement. There is even special laws regarding it for that very fucking reason.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I wish there was a "-1, Idiot" mod.
I was hoping this was about the Finnish death metal band, but I guess I'm in the wrong aisle.
Futurist Traditionalism
The problem isn't piracy.
The problem IS lazyness.
Not in the users of the game, but the people that sell the game.
If we had advertising space in games, I'm fairly certain big bosses like google would bite.
Yes, I'm a pirate. Yes I'm a theif. So was Robin Hood and his Merry men. Guys like Mr. CEO of Stardock are morons. Times change - get on the bandwagon. Offer more, or don't whine.
Many companies realize this, what do they do? Offer their games for free and rely on MICRO TRANSACTIONS to improve gameplay for the user.
Time to stop whining. It's time to realize that you can't fight the masses. You strike us down (piratebay) we will come back, and more powerful. Change of method is required here. Stop fighting you will never win.
I still don't like the idea of copying. But the analogies discussed here made me realize something. This issue has been with us **always**. But, in a way, we seem to be redefining theft. Let's take an example: Throughout history men and women have spent a lot of effort designing furniture. They would then sell this furniture. Someone else, upon seeing this new design, would go and copy it and make their own, sometimes even selling it. We have entire periods and styles of furniture throughout history based on this. **no-one ever thought a thing about it***. Thoughout history men and women have created products from their own materials that were exactly like others they saw or owned. In some cases it might have been considered tacky (imitating art), but in others it was just thought of as making do. Why are we now making the reproduction of things so restrictive after an entire history of humanity freely reproduced works of which were instrumental in making progress? Imagine if the "copying" of books had been (successfully) banned a thousand years ago? We might not have a Bible, or Shakespears works, or a guitar? Thanks to slashdot I am beginning to see this issue as a fundamental issue of a civilized society and now believe we should have very strict limits on copywrite.
Way to gain sympathy from them by calling them thieves?
You know... they will not buy stuff from people they don't like.
Especially if 1. they would/could not buy it anyway, and 2. you still have that game, so it was not stolen, and they are no thieves. (Stealing = Original owner does not have it anymore.)
I agree that it's unfortunate and stupid of those users, to come knocking on your servers, so they can use them without actually paying for anything. And this part really would be something close to stealing. (I don't know how it's called in US law, when you obtain something by fraud.)
But this way, you just pissed them off in addition. Good luck selling future games to them.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Um, bullshit. Complete bullshit. Someone worked on that so they could make some money. They don't make this stuff for free. You see, there is something wrong with making a digital copy under certain circumstances, ie, copying music from a CD to an iPod is fine, but downloading commercial software for free is not. It's not the same thing as stealing a physical item from a store as nobody loses a piece of inventory, but you're still taking something that belongs to someone else, essentially. Yeah, I pirate software from time to time, but I also purchase software when I can. Saying there's nothing wrong is idiotic. If there's nothing wrong, then we should all do it! Byebye to the vast majority of the software industry. Believe it or not, most people want to make money off of their work so they can eat. Sure, some folks make free software, and that's fine if they want to, but saying that all software should be free whether the creators like it or not only makes you look like an utter prick who is trying to justify what he's doing.
The type of DRM limits his play, and the update basically made it impossible to play the game,e ven with a new install of the original media.
Either it was download electronically(steam?) or there is online play you must ahve the DRM for.
The company added a limitation AFTER the purchase. At the very least people who don't like it should get there money back if they so choose.
It isn't a fix, it's adding a limitation to being able to play the game.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Perhaps. Perhaps you would not judge me so harshly if you knew of my desperate youth, wasted, wasted on the streets of Zimballia.
Heracles called. He wants his glory back.
Same with Starcraft and Diablo II. I still play those games under Wine, and now I don't even need my CD with the official patches. Good times.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Damn. I was seriously on the side of buying a Stardock game if I found it even slightly interesting, just to promote a DRM-free publisher... but if they pull this sort of stunt with putting it on in a later update, that's put me right off.
And you say you can't install it on another machine through their download service? I think I'll stick with Steam, thanks.
I read the article and the first thing that came to my mind was "you know, you're right." I like his solution (more or less.) A nice way to look at it.
-- Jason
"then you should either buy it or accept that you're a thief"
I don't think you mean what you think you mean.
So does that mean if you can't host your own server, someone else requiring you to register to use *their* is DRM? Stop going point by point and saying "that is not what I meant." And start telling us what you did mean.
I've pirated a lot of games, but out of respect for Stardock's principled stand, I haven't done this with Demigod or any of their other games. Pirates in general who rationalize by complaining about the price of games or draconian copy protection should go out of their way to accommodate the few (or one) publisher who acts reasonably. Presumably they're saving a ton of money by getting their games for free, so some of that money should go to Stardock. That is, if you like the game. Which suggests another problem of "how can I know that" so I'm waiting for a demo. Does a demo exist yet?
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
I hadn't heard of this (never saw Braveheart) so I looked it up.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1139/did-medieval-lords-have-right-of-the-first-night-with-the-local-brides
P.S. I basically agree with your points. I just thing this ius primae noctis thing is on shaky ground as history.
There are a lot of open source game projects that would love to have people donate their time helping to improve the product.
Really? Damn, I need to go reinstall Diablo II now that i won't have to search for the disk every time i want to play it.
Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
If I don't get what I want, they don't get what they want (My money)
I don't want a game that phones home
I don't want to keep a CD in the drive (resorting to using daemon tools or no CD cracks)
I don't want DRM crapware installed
They want my money, but they seam to get that people want no strings attached game. And as I haven't heard of this game before, I will try it, if I like it I will buy it. Lets see if they actually made a fun game that I am looking for. If it meets my requirements, and is fun, I may get more than on copy, and my friends too for lan play.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
Then we'd all have to change our viewing preferences to -5.
Don 't go there.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
In my years of driving up and down logging roads dodging their "landmines," I've come to one conclusion. Bears don't shit in the woods. They walk out onto the nearest road and shit there.
As a sidepoint. I also bought "King's Bounty: The Legend" because I loved the old "Might and Magic Heroes" games..
The damn disc won't even read in my computer! My laptop's drive reads it ok but lacks the hardware to run it. The disc it not scrathed or anything but it's the damn DRM they're using that locks me out. I had to wait for a crack to be release to play it because on the official forums the advice was "Your DVD drive is broken, go buy a new one", which is bullshit because all other discs I own read just fine. It's not even an obscure brand drive.
In short DRM is evil incarnate. I don't buy any games with DRM that is too restrictive.
Yeah, I really liked the demo of that game, but when I heard about the DRM, I wasn't about to drop $40 on it ($30 now). If I have to risk my security to a hack to run the program, I may as well risk the security to run the program without paying the $40 for it at all.
Instead I went out and bought HoMMV (only played v3 on Linux (Thanks Loki!). At least their DRM was cleaned up enough to run it and it was half the price. There's something to be said about economic substitutes :)
After the release, They made you update to play online... without an Impulse account and a registered copy, you cannot get the updates or any balancing they've made.
So, in other words. A pirated copy is a POS copy. It'll get boring really fast if you cannot patch / upgrade it.
You CANNOT get the expansion pack to Sins of a Solar Empire Unless you have a registered copy of the game.
Sorry Pirates, but StarDock has the best option VS piracy... registering your GAMES!!!!
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
Just wanted to let you know, I believe that with Impulse you can "Archive" any game you have downloaded / installed (or update for a game), to be installed in the future. From what I understand, Impulse may still need to connect to their servers to verify you own the game, however they are working on "Impulse Anywhere" (see http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com/ which sounds like it will allow you download an offline installer for the games you've purchased.
HE'S FULL OF IT?
Look up the words "digital", "rights" and "management".
Anyways, Demigod requires online servers to unlock functionality. Are those online servers DRM?
Depends. Are those servers controlled by the owner of the software or the vendor?
Because if they aren't, then anyone who sets up their own server (they're out there), has unlocked that functionality.
If those servers are not hacks, are legal and the average purchaser can create and access those servers then the game is not DRM'ed.
At the end of the day, you just seem like you don't want to participate in a capitalist society, and I have to wonder, what are you doing in the US?
Irrelevant to the question of whether a piece of software has DRM or not. I'm more than happy to participate in a capitalist society however you seem to have a very narrow view of what a capitalist society is.
---
For the copyright bargain to be valid all DRM'ed works should lose copyright.
If the game requires any form of authentication to unlock any significant functionality then it's DRM'ed.
Finally, a co-conspirator! I too demand an end to Slashdot's and gmail's reign of DRM tyranny.
I've been lobbying for years for random people to be allowed to log onto my account to post and read my emails. However, the fatcats in Dexter and the Googleplex want to keep swimming in their moneybins and refuse to acknowledge my request.
Please communicate with me via email at nitpicker999@gmail.com.
The only thing I care about (as a gamer) is whether the game plays (excluding obvious stuff like the game should be fun :P ), and lately a lot of games just don't run. :/ I can't tell you how aggravating it is to buy a game, install it, and find out it crashes instantly with some error code related to the DRM.
Funny you should mention that because I'm one of the many people that are having serious issues using Demigod. The single player works mostly as advertised. But the multiplayer uses a new P2P system, and for some unknown reason I can't connect to 90% of people. And if you can't connect to someone, then you can't play in their game. A patch they pushed out a week ago changed it so that about 75% of the time if you can't connect, the game locks up (this affects everyone). Yes, it locks up, and they've done nothing about it for the past week.
Granted, these issues appear to be the result of absolutely terrible network code instead of DRM, but it still pisses me off. I've lost hours fiddling with settings to no avail. Today I went from my Windows XP install to a fresh install of Windows 7 x64 RC1. I literally installed the OS and then Demigod, and I'm having the exact same issues. I hate them.
I'm sorry? How about the update that they pushed out a week ago that gives you a high probability of the game locking up if a match connection fails? They pushed it out on a Friday night, and then told people to wait until Monday because the developers were at home for the weekend. Now it's the following Saturday and there is still no patch to fix the patch.
Saying I am not happy with their support is an understatement.
people who would otherwise never buy the game should be hung for playing a pirated copy ? i find myself more and more paying only for online play , most games no more than a month ... but when i want to play i can continue.
Are these companies blind to reality or do they think they have the power to shift it maybe. Their ideas elude me, i must be stupid or something
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
He's been perfectly obvious as to what he's talking about, and perfectly correct.
You can argue that Stardock uses permissive DRM. You can't argue that they don't use DRM if there's any product activation or authentication.
There was a study done recently that showed music pirates actually buy more music online than those that don't pirate any at all. Granted this probably does not apply as well to games, but I think stardock having some faith in the consumer base has paid of for them in more ways than one. Not having to deal with pain in the ass DRM has made me appreciate them even more.
Just backup you puchaces using the achive thing in impulse application and a copy of your cd keys and your pretty much sorted if anything bad happens to stardock god forbid