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NASA Running Low On Fuel For Space Exploration
smooth wombat writes "With the end of the Cold War came warmer relations with old adversaries, increased trade and a world less worried about nuclear war. It also brought with it an unexpected downside: lack of nuclear fuel to power deep space probes. Without this fuel, probes beyond Jupiter won't work because there isn't enough sunlight to use solar panels, which probes closer to the sun use. The fuel NASA relies on to power deep space probes is plutonium-238. This isotope is the result of nuclear weaponry, and since the United States has not made a nuclear device in 20 years, the supply has run out. For now, NASA is using Soviet supplies, but they too are almost exhausted. It is estimated it will cost at least $150 million to resume making the 11 pounds per year that is needed for space probes."
Or if that wont work it looks like there is a decent chance we'll be able to buy some from the Taliban soon.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
I'm not a nuclear scientist by any means, but would it be possible to harvest the heat and radiation from spent fuel and convert that to electricity?
(I'm assuming this wouldn't be possible for gamma radiation, but alpha/beta radiation should be doable, as well as with simple residual heat)
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
That's the exact amount of money a mad scientist would want to disarm a nuclear bomb he built himself and placed in a heavily populated area. A byproduct of his mad-genius nuke is the same plutonium-238 isotope, and he doesn't know what to do with it!!! We need to get these people together.
I just hope this lack of fuel won't cause problems, and doesn't href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/technology/technologynews/5105
In news unrelated to their shortage of plutonium, NASA is also looking for a buyer for a shiny bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts...
Michael Coyne
http://turthalion.blogspot.com
We allowed breeder reactors or nuclear reprocessing at civilian reactors.
Can't wind farms and solar energy suffice?
No. Wind farms work on the relative velocity between the ground and the atmosphere, but in space, there's no ground and almost no atmosphere. And the summary states: "there isn't enough sunlight to use solar panels".
Just make the probes with wind-up springs. It works in the cartoons.
Table-ized A.I.
I know Sr-90 is often also used in similar devices (mainly Russian ones), any reason why we can't switch to that?
Necessity is the mother of all invention. Lets take this opportunity to find a new method of powering probes for such long distance missions.
Just bring Uranus closer to the sun.
Table-ized A.I.
problem is they will most likely want to deliver it themselves.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
You're right. About the first part.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
The US still has plenty of nuclear warheads that could be retired and their plutonium used for this purpose, unless for some reason the fuel has degraded.
President Obama has suggested additional reductions in nuclear arms held by the US and Russia, so perhaps the plutonium from those could be used.
Or perhaps NASA could adapt their generators to use plutonium 239, which they could get from a Fast Breeder reactor, if we ever build one.
The French have made bombs, too, and they are big on breeder reactors that produce (and consume) lots of plutonium.
nuf sed
Table-ized A.I.
But Iran seems to be itching for quick delivery to Israel, so they might not be the best option.
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/05/20/1320256 (i've been reading /. way too long.)
I thought the big fuel expense was breaking atmo. What happened to coasting in space?
Nothing. Coasting in space works great. But how do you plan to power the cameras and radios on it?
Out past jupiter the sun is too far away for us to get enough energy from solar. What else is there?
I wish it was only $150 million a week.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
you need to keep your electronics powered and not-frozen. you also have to transmit your data.
It's about time we found something more expensive than the refills for my inkjet.
(If you are going to tell me to wait to post about mentioning how long....)
Weapons-grade plutonium is made by refining nuclear waste in a reactor. This process reduces nuclear waste by 95%, but is frowned upon by the major nuclear powers because it produces weapons-grade plutonium, and no one wants to be manufacturing bomb-making material. They've been doing it since the 1940's so its not new or anything. The problem is also that such manufacture is illegal on an international scale.
The article says that P-238 is used as a power source because of the heat is causes during decay. Surely someone could come up with a better power source for these probes than a rare isotope. I'm not even sure than this plutonium could be manufactured by refining nuclear waste, since that process produces P-239.
And over there we have the labyrinth guards. One always lies, one always tells the truth, and one stabs people who ask t
How is inertia going to power sensors, communications gear, and attitude gyros? They're not talking about fuel for propulsion, they're talking about fuel to keep the onboard equipment working.
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that, in addition to the electricity needed to run cameras, sensors, the main CPU of the probes, and radio, etc, that part of the reason to use radioactive materials to power these deep space probes was to keep them warm enough that they could actually still operate? Doesn't the probe have to heat itself somehow?
Except that they don't actually travel in a straight line away from the sun. They use the slingshot effect to travel a couple orbits around the sun and build up lots of speed. It would probably be very hard to aim the laser the correctly on a moving target millions of miles away.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
oops accidentally modded you troll instead of funny... posting to retract bad moderation
There is a source available. Just decommission a few nuclear warheads each year. Since the US has enough nuclear weapons to basically end civilization, I suspect some could be spared without meaningfully degrading national security.
War! Huh! What is it good for?
Space exploration, apparently.
Are there people in this country naive enough to believe the United States hasn't made a nuclear device in 20 years??
I don't understand why people had such a hissy fit over this. That *is* the correct pronunciation in half the country.
Learn about Photography Basics.
Uhh.. No your wrong.
Really RTGs are actually simple, cheap, and effective. Solar will not work well past the orbit of Mars, Reactors are more expensive, complex, and weigh more.
So sparky you tell me what can produce power for years without much light, heat, or air, and has a mass of less then 60 kgs?
Oh and "I am sure they can think of something" is not an answer.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
To all the smart alecks, no they can't use weapons grade plutonium, which is 239, they need 238, which has a much shorter half-life (88 y compared to 24100 y) and therefore gives off much more energy. They don't need an isoptope that is fissile, they need one with a short half-life.
"'I am sure they can think of something' is not an answer"
It isn't? What, do they expect slashdot users to come up with something? Aren't they paid to do this? Didn't they see this coming 20 or 30 years ago? Do NASA scientists wait until the last minute to solve something like this? Of course they have to think of something, that's what their job entails. If they ran out of Pu 238 they can either 1) make or get more, or 2) figure something else out. If you have another alternative, "Sparky," please clue us in.
[wavy lines, as we look into the crystal ball ...]
North Korea has threatened to carry out nuclear missile tests unless the UN Security Council apologises for its "unseemly snickering" at their recent rocket launch falling into the sea.
"The communications satellite was successfully launched and is fulfilling its mission, sending transmissions from Pacific Ocean life in deep space," a Pyongyang communique said today. "If the UN does not take back its grievous slanders, we will be forced to retaliate with the full force of our mighty nuclear arsenal. Our dad will beat up your dad too."
North Korea conducted its first and only nuclear test in 2006, described as "completely successful" and "revealing new dimensions in gunpowder science."
North Korea's foreign ministry also said "the UN should apologise for infringing our sovereignty, retract all its resolutions and decisions against us and stop being big meanies. It's so unfair!"
It also announced plans to build a light-water nuclear reactor, a domestic robot, a flying car and a "really cool thing we haven't finished drawing yet, but expect to have ready soon as our great nation continues to make tremendous advances in crayon science."
Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il announced a glorious 30% increase in industrial output and a 35% increase in food production as the cardboard ran out and the factories started shaping raw contaminated mud into loaves. South Korea sighed at the news and looked forward to a peace dividend similar to that reaped by Germany in 1990 when the North finally collapses and they have to clean up the mess.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
After the US won the Cold War, we agreed to buy their huge nuke stockpile that they agreed to give up. Then Bush Sr didn't buy it with the money (the Democratic) Congress put out. Then the Republican Congress that took over deleted the money so Clinton couldn't buy it.
Now the Russians have a nuke stockpile, and we don't even have enough plutonium to run a space program.
Nice work. Notice who prevented the proper processing of the most essential peace dividend.
--
make install -not war
Pu-238 is hard to beat for this application
Pu-238 is used because it is relatively short-lived and is not easily fissile (low multiplication factor), and instead experiences relatively rapid Alpha decay.
Like most alpha decay, it generates heat as a decay byproduct. Unlike Pu-239, which has a half life of a little over 24,000 years, the Pu-238 half-life is a little under 90 years, which makes it a better thermal source for use in power generation (Pu-239 decays way to slowly to be used as an Alpha decay based heat source).
Trying to convert to something like Pu-239 from decommissioned nuclear weapons (for example) would require converting to using fission by-products instead, which would require shielding against the Beta decay and fast neutrons (Alpha particles can be shielded with nothing more than paraffin). This would add a lot of mass to the probe itself - both for shielding the sensitive components, and for carrying a large enough sub-critical mass of Pu-239 to induce spontaneous subcritical fission.
In fact, all in all, Pu-238 is one of only a few materials that could be used for this application.
-- Terry
Actually they have been trying to get funding to get PU 238 production started again for about 5 years. This isn't a last minute thing. Also NASA has no control over Pu 238 that is under the AEC and NASA has been asking them for more for several years. The buying it from Russia was their solution.
The thing is that there is NOTHING really better than an RTG powered by Pu 238.
As far as snide the original post was made with both a massive influx of arrogance and ignorance.
Pu238 is as close to a perfect fuel for an RTG as you can get.
1. It is an Alpha emitter. That means it is easy to shield and the shielding actually converts the alpha emissions to heat.
2. It has a very high energy density.
Nothing else comes close.
The solution is to start making more Pu 238 the problem is NASA can't.
Yes finding a solution is part of their job but the current answer will be fewer space probes. There isn't some super cool new tech that can work as well or better than an RTG and to spout off about how they should find on is the height of arrogance.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Yes.
Start producing Pu 238.
That is the answer. There is nothing better than an RTG for this problem and probably never will be.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
We may be past nuclear holocaust, but we still face viral holocaust. The bacon-lung will get ye.
The only known protection from this flu is to put a plastic bag over your head, poke a hole in it, then use a snorkel to breathe. You will then be known as a baconaut. You will roam the world like a god as all those around you die of the disease.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That's about 13.5M per pound. That price sounds kinda high. Heck I just lost 3 lbs last week, too bad is was mainly McDonald's weight (though I hear that stuff is kind of toxic... I digress). I'm sure the price will come down with ramped up production.
It is estimated it will cost at least $150 million to resume making the 11 pounds per year that is needed for space probes
And people moan about gas prices!
"I'm sure that in 1985 plutonium is available in every corner drug store, but in 1955 it's a little hard to come by."
This about Pu-238 for use in thermoelectric generators. Pu-239 does not produce enough heat.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
If we can send 35 billion to these banks every couple of weeks, we should damn well be able to afford $150 mill for some needed space probes. It's only the long term future of the continuing human instinct to explore our world and universe!
Keep passing the open windows...
Weapons do not contain Pu-238 which is what NASA needs for their thermoelectric generators. Pu-239, which is what is used in weapons, won't do.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
It'll take only one car accident bad enough to breach containment, it'll cook a lot of folks.
First rule of holes; When in one, stop digging.
I expected a cheap shot like this, so here's my answer:
The 'Propaganda' you refer to is generally about far-away places and events, and therefor any contrast with reality would not be apparent.
These people are being fed bullshit about the workings of their daily lives, and are required to participate in the lies or be hauled off to the gulag. There is a big difference between 'stoopid americans falling for propaganda about WMD/Iraq Lollerskates!!11Lol!' and Koreans believing or not believing the nonsense they're told, or participate in, each day, about matters that directly affect every waking moment.
Clear enough?
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
probes beyond Jupiter won't work because there isn't enough sunlight to use solar panels
Then just have the probes bring the sun with them...
My webcomic
Weapons contain Pu-239. NASA needs Pu-238.
> Or perhaps NASA could adapt their generators to use plutonium 239
Pu-239 won't work. It has much too long a half-life.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Wrong.
Wrong wrong wrong.
Pu-238 â Pu 239.
Pu-239 is what is used in warheads. It's rather stable (half life of ~24,000 years) but is a fissile substance which you can assemble into a supercritical form.
Pu-238 is relatively unstable (half life of ~88 years), so it gives off quite a bit of heat as it breaks down. Thus, it is used for RTGs (Radioisotope Thermal Generators).
Different isotopes are different.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
http://futureplanets.blogspot.com/2009/01/solution-to-plutonium-problem.html
While it still uses Pu 238, it uses much less, and the current supply could last for another 20 years. No doubt you already knew about this when you claimed "There is nothing better than an RTG for this problem and probably never will be."
Thank you for offering yourself up as a perfect example of an American who has bought into US propaganda hook line and sinker.
Simply put, you were misinformed.
Any manned spacecraft needs to be protected from ionizing radiation, as do sensitive computer parts on unmanned ones. They are not, however, exposed to radioactive material.
Radioactive contamination, which is what you're thinking of, either results from neutron bombardment, or alternatively from radioactive material "rubbing off" on the now contaminated object. It's not an issue in space. It may or may not be an issue with nuclear bombs and reactors here on earth, depending on the material(s) in question.
Exposure to most forms of ionizing radiation does not cause the exposed object to become radioactive. Exposure to neutron radiation is another matter, but that particular variety doesn't occur in space.
Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
I thought everything shot into space had to be protected from radio activity.
The only things that need protection from radiation on a space probe are semiconductor-based devices (e.g. CPUs and other electronics).
I also thought everything that comes into contact with radio active material becomes radio active.
That is only true if the radioactive source emits neutron radiation or high energy alpha radiation.
Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
Technically that is still a RTG, just a more efficient one.
Other pointed out that you are misunderstanding the nature of the plutonium being used, but it is also worth pointing out that reactors produce many tons of plutonium each year, while NASA is consuming a few pounds. The NASA activity isn't even a rounding error on the plutonium coming out of reactors.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
It'll take only one car accident bad enough to breach containment, it'll cook a lot of folks.
Well, SOMETHING has got to cause the population reduction!
It looks like their stocks are literally decaying away!
Bwahahahahahaha...ahaha...ha...ha..h
Yeah, I'll get my coat.
FGD 135
Still uses Pu 238, it is still an RTG, it is more complex since it uses a sterling engine with moving parts.
It is a slightly more efficient RTG but still would use Pu238. So nope not a new energy source and has the same problem as the current RTGs which is a shortage of fuel.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Solar will not work well past the orbit of Mars
Actually, NASA is building a Jupiter space probe now called Juno that uses solar panels. Quoting the article:
Advancement in solar cell technology and efficiency over the past several decades now makes it economically feasible to use solar panels of practical size to provide power so far from the Sun.
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
I clicked into this thinking that "low on fuel" was gonna be a clever euphemism for "lack of funding", but I was sorely disappointed!
Need plutonium you say?
Go to Moscow and find a strip joint named 'Glasnost'. Ask for Valentin. I got a nice warhead from him, 1960's vintage in the original crate. Only cost me a couple of cartons of smokes and a washing machine.
I wanted to get a surface-to-air missile as a graduation present for my little cousin (finally finished high school!), but the customs agent downed my bottle of Kentucky Bourbon before I could leave the terminal.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
He probably has a dilithium crystal or two and some antimatter lying around.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Tony Stark could probably build it in a cave. With a box of scraps!
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
That the Guinness Book of World Records stated that Plutonium 238 was the most expensive stuff in the world.
I guess that's been superseded by Antimatter by now, but $150,000,000 for 11 pounds of the stuff? That works out to be $30,000 per gram! EEK.
How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
Preferably of the colder variety, but those warmer ones work just as well too.
Wernher von Braun was building rockets for Hitler long before the USA-USSR space race.
Both sides went to space with the help on the back of his research - which was originally done in order to bomb London.
Hell... We might still be shaving ourselves with straight razors had not Gillette made that contract to supply US Army with safety razors during the WWI.
And we might still be using soap and a shaving brush to lather - had not the aerosol can been invented for army use during the WWII.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
This, like the 2005 announcement that the US would resume Pu production at a cost of XXX millions or billions, is an attempt to pack the pork barrel by begging for money under false pretense. Pu production is unnecessary. Per the 2002 SORT treaty the US is reducing its stock of strategic warheads by over 2000 devices between 2004 and 2012, about half being dismantled. The weapons grade Pu in them is a different ratio of isotopes than reactor grade. Still, 1000 warheads worth would yield a large stockpile of Pu for space probe power production. The dismantling is already planned and funded, so no additional start-up funds are needed.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Topping RTGs for weight to power ratio in an unattended system is probably unfeasible anytime soon. Saying we can't use something else though is a total failure to look at the big picture. The real problem is launch costs. There are any number of already existing systems to get a heavier fuel source launched into orbit for much cheaper than we do it currently.
..our future spacecraft are going to be powered by dilithium crystals, so why don't we just get on with mining the stuff?
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
They have large nuclear programs. Perhaps they might want to get rid of some of this stuff if they have it.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
NASA needs Pu-238. Weapons contain only Pu-239.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.