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Lenovo On the Future of the Netbook
thefickler touts an interview in tech.blorge with Lenovo's Worldwide Competitive Analyst, Matt Kohut, who spoke about his vision of the future of netbooks, which involves Windows 7, bigger screens, built-in 3G, touch integration, and lower prices. Linux fans will be disappointed to hear that Kohut thinks Windows 7 will dominate future generations of netbooks because it offers a better, more familiar solution, with the benefits of touch. Quoting Kohut: "The other challenge has been, in order to keep the price points down, a lot of people thought that Linux would be the savior of all of these netbooks. You know, there were a lot of netbooks loaded with Linux, which saves $50 or $100 or whatever it happens to be, based on Microsoft's pricing and, again, from an industry standpoint, there were a lot of returns because people didn't know what to do with it. Linux, even if you've got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows. So, we've seen overwhelmingly people wanting to stay with Windows because it just makes more sense: you just take it out of the box and it's ready to go."
Everything you see today, only larger, faster and cheaper.
Nice "vision". Where can I get a job like that?
You know, I thought the whole point of a netbook was to be cheap and portable. Why would you throw a bigger screen on it? I've got a 17" laptop. It's great for long-term use, since it has a full-sized keyboard. Great use in class, when I was taking notes. And yet I'm *still* considering grabbing a netbook and an aircard so that I'd have something tiny to carry around for if I need to look up something quickly (bus schedules, addresses, etc). Something with a larger screen would just be relegated to laptop uses, especially with an increased battery drain from the larger screen. Seriously, what's the point?
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
What with their ridiculous SL series and their lack of Linux support (and flagrant linux dismissal) since IBM spun them off, I say goodbye to you. I shall miss the trackpoint, but as you are trying to phase it out anyways, c'est la vie.
Why is there no major Linux vendor, anyways? Aside from repackaging Windows machines with Linux? Why can't somebody do for Linux what Apple does for OSX?
Linux, even if you've got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows. So, we've seen overwhelmingly people wanting to stay with Windows because it just makes more sense: you just take it out of the box and it's ready to go."
If Linux netbooks aren't ready to go out of the box, the vendors are doing a poor job.
If people are trying to install non-bundled apps, they might run into trouble. Otherwise, everything should just work. If it doesn't, something's wrong.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
the year of Linux on the Netbook. I've had more than a few people complain that Dell didn't tell them they weren't getting Windows, but that darn Winux thing!
Most Linux Distros would work on a netbook well enough to surf the web and check email. Besides they are not made for High end gaming.
People are choosing Windows because they don't know any better. Xandros which came on one of my netbooks was quite intuitive and anyone who can figure out XP can figure out that particular distro. If being limited to 3 apps and no external display is was drives the masses (windows 7) then so be it. I had the opportunity to demo gnome for a customer who has had significant problems with other setups. In few minutes, firefox was up, open office was up and they were using the computer. Only time and anti-competitive practices will tell.
Linux *is* awesome, but not ready for the masses who don't have an IT staff to tweak their image. Linux is vexing to those who support the idea of open source, but don't have the time or skill to navigate the endless FAQs needed to complete simple tasks (play DVD's, etc..). The key points of a netbook is ease, portability and its "appliance: nature. If there were a way to develop an instant on environment and purpose optimize the device a la kindle, then that's great. However, windows will rule until an easy GUI is developed that does not require a background in technology to use. The first poster is right, there is definitely some intellectual laziness out there, but I'd also argue that there are people without time to learn an OS during late night camel lights/sierra nevada fueled geek sessions. The iLife suite is a POS, but it's easy to learn and use, and that's one reason why apple has been so successful. If pcs were marketed solely to technology-inclined people, it would be a different story. Do you really think Joe the Plumber would be able to burn ubuntu isos and learn to use linux without getting frustrated?
There are several varieties of "wild boar" (at least in N. America). Some are viscous.
Jesus....really?
=Smidge=
Is it just my observation, or is eldavojohn an idiot?
This is the brick wall that OSS keeps running into
The OSS community probably has a larger more passionate base of developers documentation writers and advocates and so on but it is also torn in 17,000 different directions the fiasco with glib is a perfect example not to mention the thousands of failed distro "pet projects"
Another downfall is the poor naming convention OSS uses I can imagine what a window is i dont know what-the-fsck a debian or a ubuntu is
stop it with the nonfuctional hippy-hippy names scrolling through a fresh installs applications menu is like taking the helm of a romulan cargoship
mod me as flamebait
First of all, this guy looks like a goof. Alright, that's a cheap thing to say, but he's unfairly insulting my OS!
All the reviews of the Linux netbooks I've read so far say that the distro they use is garbage. Let someone put a good distro, say Ubuntu, on a netbook and see how people like it. Linux IS as usable as Windows (not because it doesn't have problems, but because Windows has just as many problems).
Looking into the future, PCs are getting cheaper and cheaper. Right now the cheapest is around $250. Already, being able to save $50-$100 off that price by not using Windows is going to make a huge difference. As they get cheaper, that discount is going to be bigger and bigger. Either Linux will become more popular, or Microsoft is going to start taking revenue cuts.
Qxe4
Note that millions of Americans are still using dialup.
I will keep an eye on Thinkpad hardware to run Linux as I have for years, but I will have to remain paranoid and assume the worst until some testing and validation has occurred, whether by me or others in the Linux world.
It is sad to see people like Kohut gaining prominence. He has blogged more than once indicating his belief that the Thinkpad value is in that gimmicky crap software they add on top of Windows (whether the wireless manager, or power manager, or hybrid graphics driver), which truly shows that he has no respect for the robust hardware platform they used to provide. If they had any remaining pride in their hardware, they wouldn't need gimmicky software to differentiate.
What is just so wrong about windows being the future is it breaks the the very first claim about the future of netbooks, 'cheap'. The M$ solution represents licence fees for the OS, licence fees for the office suits, licence fees for the servers to connect them, licence fees for communications both email and web server. In fact a whole range of licence fees that far exceed the value of a netbook and, not just by a bit, but in total by a factor of at least 10.
So the very first claim is an out and out marketing lie, windows 7 and it's accomplices is a hugely expensive solution. This really egregious especially coming from a company out of China, where the majority of people can barely afford a $100 netbook and greater than $1000 dollars worth of licence fees is beyond their annual income.
The future of the netbook is cheap and semi-disposable, as it it's loss or destruction is not to financially painful. Having a netbook with bound software licences that disappear with the netbbook and require r-ebuying is just nuts and, just as pointless is having to reinstall all those, what a really basic applications, again and again.
The reality is that the netbook running FOSS will become the default education device and all the lies coming out of M$ or it's cronies are doomed to failure.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I am sure that for most average users if you shipped Ubuntu and just branded it as Windows 7 most people would just accept it. Sure some people would be pissed off that their XP apps wouldn't work but they would just accept it as a fact of computers just like how Windows had given them belief that computers just break often. It's only because it doesn't say Windows that people feel scared and the issue of their favorite desktop malware.
Windows 7, bigger screens, built-in 3G, touch integration
So his vision for the Netbook is that they get bigger, heavier, clunkier but more capable yet somehow cheaper. I think he's a couple of decades late in inventing the full blown Notebook/Laptop. The reason Netbooks have become so popular is that they're small, light, cheap and good enough for the tasks that people want to buy them for - mostly word processing, email and web browsing.
Personally, because I like the flexibility of being able to do more, I've always preferred a full featured laptop with a decent GPU and a 17" screen. I'm not about to start calling it a Netbook, though.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
there were a lot of returns because people didn't know what to do with it.
As opposed to "Windows" which they can open ?
I honestly can't blame consumers from returning netbooks loaded with Linux, and exchanging them for the Windows versions. I don't think it's a fault of Linux, though, but rather with OEMs who haven't even *tried* to polish it up before sticking it in their low-cost machines.
Here, now, how many of you have bought a Linux-equipped netbook? and how many of you *weren't* tempted to replace it with Ubuntu as soon as you first booted it up? fact is, most OEMs are treating Linux as they used to treat FreeDOS: something to stick in the machine until the user goes home and installs their pirated version of Windows in it.
Missing drivers, non-working features, ugly non-standard interfaces and practically no apps out-of-the-box, it's a pity OEMs are giving Linux such a bad image just to save themselves the effort of giving their users a quality, distinctive experience.
Guess Linux' world domination will have to come from business after all, pity...
No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
http://lunduke.com/?p=429
A friend of mine works part time at BestBuy. He more or less has told me the same thing. All brands of Netbooks (Asus, MSI, HP, and Dell) have had a very high return rate on models that were preloaded with Linux. It's not that people don't like Linux, it's that they want it to work the "Windows" way. So far, only Microsoft and provide that for obvious reasons.
If people really wanted something to work other than Windows, I'm sure they would have chosen Mac instead.
Life is not for the lazy.
I think the printer driver issue alone is a problem for most people. My grandmother could not deal with getting going the printer I just had to deal with setting up on Linux. So fine, Linux for me, Windows for grandma.
What the TFA mentions that "Linux, even if you've got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows" is blatantly false. I unpacked my Linux eeePC, plugged it in, turned it on, and started working, something I never managed to do with any Microsoft computer.
In windows you always need to get and install all the software you need to actually do something with the computer.
In my case, I do a lot of Python programming, and that was there. I also found Kate, my favorite editor for programming. Plus OpenOffice, a media player for music and video, a bunch of icons for starting Firefox in several different modes, which means 99% of what I need for work and play was already there. Let me see a windows netbook that comes with all that pre-installed.
The only complaint I have about the eeePC is that the keyboard should be just a little bit bigger, other than that it's an excellent machine. But, of course, one can always have a thinner, lighter netbook, with longer lasting batteries. That would be my choice of directions for evolution.
While I would like to see Linux do well on these devices it isn't all bad news if they don't. At the end of the day Microsoft still gets deprived of the mountains of money they would be making on a full blown OS. That is money they won't have to perform sleazy and questionably legal things with.
I still think Linux will come out as the hot OS on these devices eventually as better support is generated in the open source world. We just need the platforms to stabilize a little more first.
The Microsoft solution represents license fees for the office suits
Coming to a clothing store near you: Tuxedo 2009, with more bling; where does your inner Gentleman want to go today?
But with Microsoft's stance on DRM, does this mean that when I bring home a girl and we're both hot and bothered by each other, helped by our champagne buzz, I have to pay extortion money to the IFPI* before we can get naked?
(*International Federation of the Pornographic Industry)
Lenovo won't be in my future! We bought a T500 less than a year ago and they keyboard is failing already. They also far too much crap on their laptops - Vista is unusable from boot for several minutes.
I already gave up on netbooks when I heard about the Beagleboard and the Pandora.
So as netbooks evolve into small notebooks and stick with Windows for the sake of tradition, I'll be over on ARM / Linux enjoying literal 8-hour battery life [which is 15 hours in marketing terms] with full Firefox 3, on a pocket-sized computer.
If Linux netbooks aren't ready to go out of the box, the vendors are doing a poor job.
And this is exactly what we saw.
Acer said they got lots of Linux returns, but ASUS says the opposite
It looks like all he means is the same form factor as today's laptops but much flatter. Maybe no more than the thickness of a legal pad.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I want someone from Lenovo to tell me honestly that they believe that a Lenovo computer I buy from them will be ready for me to use in the way most people expect to use their computers when it comes out of the box. I want them to tell me that it will be secure, that it will be free of garbage-ware, and that it will have the most commonly used programs pre-installed. They can't do that. When Dell sells me a computer preloaded with Ubuntu, they can.
It really isn't the fault of Linux, rather the expectations of customers changed the nature of the netbook from the start. The netbook could have been a small appliance to surf the web, do email and such. Instead, the netbook just became a small PC, with all the expectations of a PC. The general layman knows that he/she isn't going to install Office on a Palm or iphone. Those are whole different machines, after all. But the netbook simply became a small laptop PC. From a Linux standpoint, THAT became the problem. Nothing wrong with Linux, just the expectations of the customer changed to expect Windows.
I'd rather not go through the hassle of Lenovo technical support again.
http://interface.org.nz/ExchangeSaga
Then again, I don't seem to have a good track record with Acer support either (bulk orders of replacement parts taking >1 month, "courier" pick-ups taking >3 weeks).
Ask me about repetitive DNA
From the article: "You can just take it (Windows 7) out of the box, and its ready to go."
I'm getting really sick of these stupid people saying how their manufacturer configured, tweaked and driver loaded version of Windows 7 works with their laptop 'out-of-the-box'.
Surely, I'm not the only one who finds this stupid. OF COURSE your manufacturer configured OS is going to work out of the box!!!!!!!!111one1
From the article: "Linux, even if you've got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows."
Error, should be: "Linux, even if you've got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is used to only using Windows."
I'm going to sit down - my hands are shaking with.......wage.
Yeah, thats right, I got so indignant I typed this reply standing up and pounding on my keyboard.
Eee PC900, it was ready to go, too. Getting it to connect to my wireless LAN was less work than getting XP computers on my LAN running. However, it's moderately stupid for Asus not to have provided my computer with a real Linux distro instead of a Xandros deliberately dumbed down to provide a net appliance.
A netbook looks enough like a conventional computer that people expect to see a conventional desktop, with menus and icons. And any halfway workable arrangement of these will work for experienced computer non-geek end users whether it's from M$, Apple, Linux, or OpenSolaris.
A net appliance UI is a bad idea that never worked out for anyone who tried selling one. And a computer that the user can't install applications from anyone with is a non-starter. People who bought the Linux version of netbooks to get a Linux experience have replaced the OEM OS en masse.
People don't have the same kind of fixed expectation of smartphone UIs, so OEMs can experiment here and pepple can generally live with anything workable.
I doubt the author of the original article has ever seen a "Linux" netbook in operation, basing his comments on Linux stereotypes based on the Linux of days gone by. Otherwise his comment about Linux netbooks would have been about net appliances.
I doubt anyone would buy XP Home repackaged as a net appliance UI, either.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Windows is a huge hassle out of the box. It takes ages to set up and get your programs installed and if something goes wrong it takes ages to diagnose and fix - else the solution is a re-install. With Linux - drivers are in the OS and software is in the repositories ready to roll. Problems are solved by looking at the useful errors that occur when things go wrong. Simple.
Yep. And they are doing a piss poor job.
I was in a shop the other day and had a good look at whatever the latest Linux EeePC thing is. I use Linux exclusively for my personal computing and I found the desktop really confusing. And it looks so bland - as if they have spent several years and multiple design cycles iteratively increasing it's blandness until it makes a plain brown paper bag look absolutely fascinating in comparison. "Hey, that browser icon looks a little interesting, I'd better file a bug report."
What do Windows users do with one of these? They stuff around, find they can't figure out how to use it (I could barely figure it out) and take it back. What do Linux users do? Most put Ubuntu on it rather than the crap it comes with.
I wonder how long it will be before a manufacturer to realise that if they stop sabotaging Linux user interfaces and start using distros that everyone is using, e.g. Ubuntu for the EeePC, then they will actually have a market. I reckon they are deliberately screwing with the user experience to make windows look more favourable, and I think they are being stupid in doing that.
I don't therefore I'm not.
You're going to get returns on Linux-based netbooks as long as you market them as general-purpose computing devices. The true purpose of a netbook is as a portable Internet-access appliance, like a large smart-phone with a keyboard. If manufacturers position them that way then they'll have a lot more satisfied customers.
How many people do you think returned their iPhone or iPod because it didn't run Windows? Not a lot, I'd say.
Put your netbook out there with Ubuntu on it and a unique, professionally designed theme. Build your own apt repository, add screenshot capabilities to Synaptic, and put "Free App Store" on the icon. Then you win.
Be careful. People in masks cannot be trusted.
The version for netbooks only runs three programs at a time. So the price point difference will be even higher if you account for a version of Windows 7 that actually works right. Early reports are that Windows 7 isn't that much faster than Vista on low end hardware. The only win I see here is in Steve Ballmer's mind.
And, isn't oddly ironic, that just when MSFT is losing market share and needs a win, suddenly there are articles future tripping on Windows 7. What a coincidence! Trying to make Windows 7 look inevitable just weeks before Android netbooks roll out on to the market. Wow, is that bizarre, or what? Almost like it was...planned.
Not sure how much of an advantage touch is on 9 in screen. A 17 in screen on a netbook makes it a laptop and wipes out all the advantages of a netbook. What's it say about MSFT when they're in such a desperate race to the bottom?
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Dell gives Ubuntu as an option on all their netbooks
Dell offers Ubuntu on the Mini 9 in the United States, but reportedly not in the Netherlands. I'd post a link to the previous discussion, but I can't figure out how to search comment titles in Slashdot's new interface.
I already gave up on netbooks when I heard about the Beagleboard and the Pandora.
That is, if the Pandora ever gets mass produced. It's already over a year late.
As far as I'm concerned there's three classifications of users, and this can be measured by the users' tech-savviness level.
1) User - this includes most people. Including self-proclaimed "gamers". Yes, your grandma. And the janitor. And probably everyone in sales and accounting.
2) SysAdmin - These guys run the show. Usually power users. Sometimes they game too, but they know how things work and how to get things done and keep them running. I fall in this category for example.
3) Developers - Top of the ladder. Some piss poor devs are probably #1s or #2s, but these coders are the real problem solvers who probably know a bit of everything. Linus falls here, as well as every other kernel dev, or anyone who's done more than simple web development (ok, they're probably 2.5's).
This article was strictly geared towards the #1's of the world...
FLR
This guy has been blogigng his anti-Linux views since at least 2007. Most amusing from the blog is that a Lenovo VP comments on his blog that he is full of sh*t.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
"Now, people are asking for more functions, so as we move into the next generation, we are starting to see things like integrated 3G and bigger screens.
Current 1st and 2nd generation netbooks are too small and 'underpowered' for the 'average user'. 'Average user'(AU) wants an inexpensive laptop/portable with a big screen and decent computing power -and AU wants it to run something familiar, like MS Windows. Unfortunately, AU doesn't realize that it can only choose two of the three, bigger and faster, cheap, comes with Windows. Personally, -for the work I do- I would prefer small and cheap that runs anything that gives me a shell prompt over big, fast, and runs MS Windows.
Sig this!
How long will it take for someone to combine a netbook with a digital ink screen (ala e-book readers)?
there is no god but truth, and reality is its prophet
Linux, even if you've got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows.
AFAIK, only Dell has a netbook with a decent Linux distribution pre-installed, and it isn't even available in large parts of the world.
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
[Linux] still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows
It's "allows". "Linux allows a lot more hands-on".That is Linux's biggest (and some would say only) advantage, isn't it. And you want to take it away, in the ever-going and global pursuit of a bigger market share ...for absolutely no reason??
Let me ask you this: Why does everything always have to grow? Why do we have to bring Linux to everyone? Why would we even want to please Joe Sixpack and Jane Hockeymom, or Frank Businessdrone and Michelle Barbiemodel? What do we gain from it?
Or more importantly: What do we lose with it?
Guys... I do not want to make any suggestions here. I just ask you to think this last two questions trough. And see what development of Linux would make you the most happy. What do you really want?
Maybe we should just learn from history. And in great /. tradition, I am going to make the best car analogy ever here: ;)
So what I am saying is, that Linux is not meant for the average desktop. And it shouldn't.
But: We can create a new OS, and copy well-tested, standardized parts, out of it, to make a generic customer OS.
Funnily, this is exactly what Microsoft and especially Apple are doing with Windows (with the BSD parts, and with copying from everybody else) and MacOS X (with being a NextStep/BSD with a beautiful UI on top).
So if you want to do that in a free manner, look at them. But do not try to standardize the prototype itself.
Or you might, one day, notice that you are left without any advantages, like flexibility, freedom and innovation. Or in other words: Without our greatest strengths.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
What exactly is there not to understand about the Linux distributions on netbooks? I have an Aspire One and I've played around with a eeePC...things are just so easy to do! I think pretty much anything the average non-techy would do on a netbook is sooo easy on the the eeePC and Aspire One Linux distributions. So easy in fact, that I switched to #!Linux to have a bit more fun with it. Ok, they don't play your top of the range Computer games, but thats out of the scope of what a netbook should manage.
I really do believe that this is not the end of Linux on netbooks, because the pricing issue will persist. I'd rather pay 100â less and learn my way into a new OS to be honest.
Man, you linux people are as disillusioned as the Apple fanatics. Fix the damn UI problems and Linux one day might enjoy double digit occupacy on PCs.
Yeah.. it's quite amazing how we all get bent out of shape based on the opinions of "experts" that have less than a 50% accuracy record. We're continuously doing this, and not just in computer technology either. The phrase "leading economists say" comes to mind....
"....stay with Windows because it just makes more sense: you just take it out of the box and it's ready to go."
If that's what 'they' want why bother with Windows? Use MacOS instead, it's so much better!
And that's my cue to exit.
Maybe the Lenovo-customized startup is scanning your files for "interesting" militarily useful info to send home to (Red) China?
Just a thought the Pentagon had at least at one point after Lenovo bought IBM's PC business...
They just don't seem to get the point of netbooks.
Bigger screens, bigger disks, faster processors, more memory, Windows7.
That's not a netbook anymore (small, light and mobile) but an ordinary laptop without an optical drive.
Iv been reading some other posts about/by him and iv come to the following conclusion:
Hes probably a douche bag that doesn't know anything about anything except windows+lenovo.
The other explanation is that MS is paying him to bash linux in any way possible.
Both equally possible.
I mean the guy said Linux was too hard because it requires users to upload data.
He also quoted TurboMax as being a linux distro.
Also Matt believes that main Linux distros are: * Eudora * SUSE, and * Turbo Max In Matt's world Linux distro is called preloader though... ps.: It is a classic case of room temperature IQ person talking about something he has no clue about. link
Also some manufactureres such as Canon refuse to publish the specs for their printers, provide drivers for other systems or put restrictive terms on the information. Hence making it almost impossible to write effective drivers for 'unauthorised' systems.
And there is no technical reason for the above restrictions. In fact it was trouble with obtaining printer information without having to sign an NDA that contributed to the formulation of the GPL.
Wow. That's either impressive or insane :-)
I can't even stand to carry around my 15" laptop on a daily basis. It's not so much the weight as the annoying "bulk" of it. It's awkward thick and wide. The power brick is big and needed far too often. The laptop is too big to fit on most lecture hall desks, and it's not at all unobtrusive... whenever I have it I'm instantly "that jerk with the giant laptop."
So 17"... way too big :-p
My bicyles
Both Microsoft and the media who reports this assign some kind of real economic value to windows, and have always treated the issue in terms of some kind of premium that Netbook manufacturers had to pay to ship Windows.
We all know the reality has to be quite different. Microsoft had to aggressively discount XP and try to stop at all costs the encroachment of Linux on netbooks. I assign an economic value of $5.00 to Windows on a Netbook. My full size laptop came with Vista and I never even saw the logo screen, I had formatted the harddisk with ext3 and installed Ubuntu on the first boot. I did the same with my MSI Wind Netbook.
I personally found the Ubuntu Netbook Remix interface to be intuitive and easy to navigate, and find that it makes efficient use of the 10" screen. Everything on the computer worked flawlessly with Ubuntu including Wireless, Webcam, USB ports, Ethernet Port, Sound, Touchpad.
The game has changed. If the economic value of Windows is close to zero, and the usefulness of Linux out of the box far exceeds the limited platform Windows can provide, more people will see the light. I am always explaining to people at public WiFi hotspots that I'm running Ubuntu, and that it's NOT Windows! That it doesn't need virus protection, that it's developed by dedicated people all over the world and that my computer never crashes. Sometimes I find a convert. Sometimes I enlighten somebody. Sometimes I'm just a guy with a really light, small, cool looking Netbook.
Go to dells refurb/returned system site http://www.dell.com/outlet/ and look at the dell mini9 systems. Currently I see 40 windows based netbooks and 1 linux based system. Sounds like windows systems get returned much more often to me. Typically the ubuntu based systems stay on the refurb site for a very short time, a month ago I spent a week trying to get one (I finally did get one after hitting F5 I don't even know how many times) during that time 3 showed up on dells site 2 of which I didn't get because someone else was faster then me at buying it.
Let me see, more expensive, big, fast, windows... Sounds like a... laptop?
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
"Hello, I'm having a problem with my Linux computer. The SuperSpoodle application says it won't work because it has the wrong version of something called ffmpeg"
"I see. Ok, I'll talk you through updating that package. Do you usually use yum, yast, apt-get, or portage?"
"What are those?"
"They are package updaters. Ok, do you use Debian, Ubuntu, Suse, Gentoo, Fedora, or Linspire?"
"What are those?"
"Ok, maybe it would be easier if you just brought up a terminal window and I'll tell you letter by letter what to type"
"Ok, how do I bring up a terminal window?"
"Well, if there's not an icon on your desktop, then it depends. Does your Linux computer use Gnome, KDE, XFCE, or Enlightenment?"
"Um, what are those?"
"Those are different windowing environments you might have. Depending on which you have, the menus and interface could be very different."
(pregnant pause).
"I see ... would it be possible to install Windows on this machine?"
"Bring it in and we can do it overnight."
"Thanks."
Spoken like one of those OSS trolls that keep saying: "It's OSS, if you don't like it, fix it yourself"
If a restaurant serves something not up to standards, most people won't go in to the restaurant kitchen and tell the chef how to fix it, nor do they start a new restaurant.
They just go some place better (it may not be that great, but they don't care).
The other thing - with all the Linux people "fixing it themselves" at a drop of a hat (which has many plus points), it's hard to have any standards on anything.
Standardization is needed, so there can be helpdesk support scripts. Without standardization they'll spend 5 minutes just figuring out where a button is. That's one of the reasons why corporations are pushing back on Vista - Vista is so different from XP.
Competitive Analyst, Matt Kohut, who spoke about his vision of the future of netbooks, which involves Windows 7, bigger screens, built-in 3G, touch integration, and lower prices.
I love this quote, "bigger screen" when talking about a netbook. My idea of a netbook is a small device that has most of the capability of a PC without the bloat and slowness of a PC. Linux makes a great embedded and netbook OS. I really don't see people processing a 100 page document or presentation on one of these. I guess you need full windows 7 to check e-mail, surf the web and IM.
Personally, I use a 13" notebook which is a good mix between a netbook and a laptop. Most laptops are too big for me and netbooks are too small.
While many Netbooks are selling with XP installed the users are not being given a choice of 'Windows vs Linux' and choosing Windows. They are given a choice of 'Netbook with XP vs Laptop with Vista' and choosing XP because _that_ is what they know.
When the choice is 'Netbook with crippled 7' vs 'Laptop with 7' we may find they buy neither.
The problem with Netbook + Linux is that retailers offer what makes the most profit. With Windows they will be able to draw in the customers with a 'cheap netbook' then sell up to a laptop + office + anti-virus + games. With Linux the netbook is all there is and everything is there, not much profit in that, so retailers won't stock it (or only as a limited availability draw to sell up to really profitable stuff).
I guess the reason why I'd never switched to Linux is because of shit like this? It's too tiring to have to fight against the lack of commercial and vendor support - very few businesses have any faith in it for the desktop. This means I continually hesitate if I'm going to be buying a car navigation unit, phone, web cam or any other peripheral because I will be expecting it NOT to work in Linux. If it somehow does, it generally is only after a lot of work googling and running weird scripts in a terminal.
eg. Eever tried synching a Blackberry in Linux? In Windows it's easy - install the BlackBerry Desktop Software and away you go. In Linux, or Ubuntu at least, you have to follow all this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=190938 . Yeah, really gonna happen for the non-geek end user. It's true that this is entirely the vendor's fault for not supporting Linux, but the problem is that for the hardware people WANT to use, very few do. So what would most people do, go without? Shit no, they'll run Windows and alieviate the stress and hardship.
THAT'S why even on a netbook, Linux will always come second-best.
Wow. Lin pus. What a name.
Kohut: Notebooks aren't going to go away, because again, one of the things that is helping us as an industry is that Intel is trying very hard to limit what netbooks can do.
Hmmm... intentionally crippling their low-end stuff, eh? That explains why we've got no 64-bit or VT on the mobile Atom processors, I guess, among other things...
This sounds like a loophole big enough for VIA to drive through with the Nano.
I hope they succeed. And I hope AMD wakes up and makes netbook processors. You wouldn't even know it from their terrible marketing and sales, but the Turion 64 X2 is quite a nice dual-core mobile processor from AMD. And dirt cheap too.
Bottom line, more competition is good and right now, desperately needed for netbook CPUs. We need a serious Nano vs. Atom vs. AMD slugfest. Bring it.
My bicyles
I don't know what claims Lenovo can realistically make regarding Linux -- previously, I looked for Thinkpads (knowing that IBM sold some with Linux).... the Lenovos were ALMOST impossible to find listed, and the ones they did have were funky models shipped with SLED (Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop), which, in common with many Enterprise desktops, updates infrequently and so's a bit behind.
Contrary to what he claims/implies, Dell (and apparently Asus as well) both have had similar return rates with Windows versus Linux models.
Lenovo can do what they want, but i WILL NOT buy a system with bundles Microsoft software. I simply refuse to pay the Microsoft Tax, and be counted as a Microsoft customer when I have no intention to use the software. Lenovo, you've lost a sale.
You sir are a flaming broiled turd and I mean that in the nicest way possible
If you can't get linux you can't get anything
It is that simple
I don't trust manufacturers that have "Fn" button in place of "Ctrl".
Q: Are netbook only for mail and web browsing?
A: No. On mine, I run MySQL, Postgres, Apache, Gimp, ImageMagick, PDF generation, g++, php, Dojo, Ooffice, SVN, XMPP while browsing and reading mail.
Q: Then why are netbooks promoted for just email and web browsing?
A: Because vendors like the higher margins on the more expensive machines.
Linux has printer drivers for most printers built in. Adding a printer is simpler than in Windows, where it searches for drivers, asks for CDs, and then often still doesn't work. Printing itself just works. Incidentally, Ubuntu and other Linux distributions use the same print spooling software that Macintosh uses.
The same is true for a lot of other hardware. Hardware and driver support in Linux alone is a reason why it is such a great choice. Standards-conforming hardware (printers, modems, 3G, cell phones, drives, etc.) just plug in and work.
My parents have had big problems with both Windows and OS X; despite the advertising claims, those systems are not easy to use and don't "just work". Since I switched them to Ubuntu, everything just works, and they can even safely use new software and hardware when they want to. They aren't going back.
He wants to have faster hardware, more RAM, more CPU power and hopefully more runtime. This is understandable, because otherwise W7 won run on it. And he wants to have bigger screens. And even with more expensive hardware and W7, he wants to be cheaper than other brands.
The is very ambitious. However, he will fail.
1. Netbooks are not about bigger screens (unless he is copying OLPC-2, which would mean through out the keyboard for a second screen) Netbooks are about mobility.
2. 50-100$ price cut for a Linux machine compared to W7 makes almost 25-30% of the overall price for a Netbook. So this is a significant part of the pricing. People will go for 25-30% less. Especially in a not so friendly economic environment.
3. W7 is so different compared to Win XP, so that people have to relearn a lot. So there is no difference to a good Linux distribution. And in addition. People are useing different user interfaces on their different gadgets. So Linux on a Netbook is no difference to Linux on a smartphone. Oh look some of these "Analysts" already claimed that Google Android will be on Netbooks.
So when Linux has no future on Netbooks, then Android has no future too. Or are they really thinking that are two different things.
The most interesting part is, that Lenovo is obviously for searching ways to drop Linux support for their Notbooks. Or that not all parts of the company want to pursue Linux business.
I think I finally understand what is wrong with Linux - the lack of a truly ruthless, calculating, and multi-talented leader, someone like Jobs for Apple and Gates for MSFT. Linux has geeks, super geeks, ultra geeks, genius geeks, but no geek with brains for business savvy that can create a complete compelling product. None of the FOSS community leaders wants or knows how to lead a company, and the business minded people who started out selling Linux hoping to cashing in a cheap price quickly abandon their principles for a bigger market share with Windows. Windows more user-friendly than Linux? I think it's more like people are trained and conditioned for it. Human nature rather suffers through known abuse than risk the unknown. Most smokers know cigarettes will kill them, but still they cannot quit.
I don't think it means what you think it means.
Much as I would love to tout Ubuntu, the nearest thing to "desktop Linux", as an alternative to Windows my recent experience with 9.04 left me in doubt that it would ever happen. Although it's getting better I'm a Linux/OS X geek and still found I had to spend a long time futzing with the OS to get it working properly. I came to the conclusion that it hadn't been fully tested considering the appalling state of video playback. When I put a DVD in the drive the default video player couldn't parse the dvd:// URL for some reason and I had to create a custom desktop launcher complete with command-line foo from a geek internet source before I could get it to work. Finding codecs was also a pain. I can't imagine how an inexperienced Linux user would cope with this so, no, Linux is not ready for the desktop/netbook and we shouldn't be surprised if Windows users find it too hard to get to grips with. Destop Linux is a viable option in organisations where you have experienced sysadmins but a Windows user left on his own with a new Linux installation is going to have problems.
I wouldn't bother correcting him. If you want to run Linux, you have a clear warning not to buy Lenovo. From my family's personal experience, I'm not sure I'd buy Lenovo either if I wanted to run Windows, with the amount of non-functioning vendor-specific software supplied.
Andrew Yeomans
x86 netbook, short battery life and big.
:-)
ARM netbook, long battery life and small.
x86 netbook is Windows, looks like Linux lost on that battle field, not wholey fairly either....
ARM netbook is Linux, far more functional then a WinCE netbook could ever be. What's the point of Windows where you can't run your normal apps?
MS one the x86 battle, but will they win the netbook war? It depends what exactly a netbook is for. If it's to be a mini general purpose PC where people run the apps they know, ARM and Linux loose. If it's to be a travel mini PC for web surfing and the odd jobs (and for Linux people, anything) ARM and Linux are in with a chance. Linux nearly succeed with x86, so maybe longer battery life will swing it.....
Personally, I want x86/Windows monopoly to be broken, I want competition on the OS and chip fronts, but I think they have such critical mass the market alone won't do it. People learn only Windows and don't realize how limiting that is, thus no real competition, and no real competition, means slow and fat.....oh wait that's been happening for years. Windows main competition is old versions of Windows and that sucks. It's just kept good enough that most people don't look desperately for something else. There is at least some competition on the chip front, as long as it's x86....
I would love to see ARM/Linux win, but I'm not feeling hopeful. Still I'll get myself a ARM netbook as a full pocket linux and a powerful media player in one.
Gnome is supposedly simple to use for beginners, but it is too different for a Windows-user with some experience. It would probably be much better if the notebooks were loaded with KDE instead. At least it looks somewhat like Windows to start with, even though it is far better...
Many traditional laptop manufacturers have seen netbooks cannibalizing the normal laptop market or eroding the value of the market.
A great way to get those price points back up to where they "need" to be would be to find a "reason" to need a bigger more expensive machine.
Perhaps the magic reason is "Windows".
A company like Lenovo has a great deal to lose in a market dominated by netbooks unless there was a way to beef them up .. a lot.
I have a Linpus Acer Aspire One with 8GB SSD. Ubuntu UNR 9.04 is running great on it. It is the perfect machine for me. For me it is a secondary machine that is extremely portable and rugged and inexpensive enough for me not to worry too much about it.
I look forward to ARM based netbooks, fast SSD storage and longer battery life.
'Spoken like one of those OSS trolls that keep saying: "It's OSS, if you don't like it, fix it yourself"
'If a restaurant serves something not up to standards, most people won't go in to the restaurant kitchen and tell the chef how to fix it, nor do they start a new restaurant.'
And you've spoken line one of those proprietary trolls who doesn't grok the *actual benefit of open source. Based on the rest of your post, you're not one; but this touches a nerve with me because I feel that cooking/restaurants are a *great way to introduce the free software paradigm to people.
If I get and don't like a ham sandwich, my options are not (only) to open my own ham sandwich restaurant or fix the one I went to. There are *other restaurants. There are in fact about 150 different kinds of ham sandwich that have emerged from the various cultures and time period in human history.
If food worked the way proprietary software does, you would agree not to reverse engineer your ham sandwich, work around any limitations thereof, and so on and so forth. There would be a patent on the slicing of pork for arrangement on bread or breadlike products; as a consequence, there would be no other restaurants offering them. Furthermore, your sandwich would stop functioning if you choose iced tea and potato chips instead of Coke and french fries to go with it. It's quite ridiculous to contemplate.
The importance of free technology is not that every Dom, Hick, and Tarry can go compile a kernel or assemble a distro. It's that an *actual competitive market can emerge from the world at large being allowed to do these things. Dom, Hick, and Tarry benefit from that market.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Great with a USB modem!
Do any USB modems have a penguin on the box? Otherwise, how likely is it that a user of a low-cost subnotebook running Linux will check the hardware compatibility list so as not to buy one of these?
What I said was that the issue of printer drivers contributed to the GNU license. Not that it was the sole reason. And regarding the issue of Linux an printing it's worth noting the long history of printer driver problems.
Now regarding Stallman and printer drivers note the following wikepedia entry about Stallman's time at MIT which I have heard from the horses mouth many times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
In 1980, Stallman and some other hackers at the AI Lab were refused access to the source code for the software of the first laser printer, the Xerox 9700. Stallman had modified the software on an older printer (the XGP, Xerographic Printer), so it electronically messaged a user when the person's job was printed, and would message all logged-in users when a printer was jammed. Not being able to add this feature to the Dover printer was a major inconvenience, as the printer was on a different floor from most of the users. This one experience convinced Stallman of people's need to be free to modify the software they use.
The Lenovo rep is discussing the fact that Windows XP now has about 94% marketshare on the Netbook market, up from about 90% a year ago.
Why is this? Is it because people are suspicious of things they don't know (most people don't know what an operating system is, but they've heard of windows)? Or is it because manufacturers are actively supported by Microsoft in putting WinXP in place of Linux and that most manufacturers are under heavy pressure from Microsoft to get Windows on Netbooks?
Or is it because people ask for certain software and then are disappointed when they discover it won't run on Linux?
Or is it the fabled "printer driver" issue?
I seriously doubt the last two points have much to with WinXP on Netbooks (with one exception). People very rarely run any special software on Netwbooks (it's almost always email, browsing, chatting, some typing), and people use external hardware even more rarely on netbooks.
But, the one piece of missing software is Apple's iTunes. I am willing to bet, given the ubiquity of the iPod, that an awful amount of people run iTunes on their Netbooks to listen to music while they browse, mail, chat, type etc.
iTunes doesn't run flawlessly or easily under Linux. (I personally hate iTunes on Windows, but that's just me)
So, in my opinion, it's the software.
The interview guy from Lenovo is just trying to push laptops as the future of netbooks so that Windows 7 won't be a total loss on those systems, (since it's not much, if at all, faster than Vista)
for speaking in a loud voice against the Lords of the Linux (GPG?) rings.
Been there.
Done that.
Got fired.
Don't even think of touching their Sacred Linux Religion.
Even if you are on their side.
They own it and they will pwn you.
Actually, I don't think most geeks prefer customisation per se. Many clearly do, but I for one find it a sometimes-necessary evil rather than a benefit.
Personally, what I want is something that works right. That does what I need, and then gets out of my way. The best way is for the software to work right to start with. Being able to customise it is a workaround for it not working properly in the first place. Sure, it's a lot better than nothing. But it's only a workaround.
I've seen both sides of this. For a decade, I was an Atari user. Yes, yes, I know, stop sniggering at the back. I spent a lot of time getting it set up, installing lots of utilities and gubbins. And the end result was worth it: a modern GUI desktop, task bar, Start button, great integration with my command shell, good use of the available sound and graphics, TrueType fonts, web browser, pre-emptive multitasking, email, printer, scanner, and lots more I've forgotten about, all nicely integrated. Nothing exciting today, but in the 1990s it was quite comfortable and standard. But it took an awful lot of time keeping up with the latest developments, downloading, installing, setting up, tweaking, reading docs, rebooting, etc.
Fast-forward a few years, and I'm now a Mac user. Oi, I said STOP sniggering at the back! And now I spend hardly any time customising it. Why? Because I don't need to. It's already comfortable, powerful, standard, integrated, etc.** All the things I used to spend time and effort setting up are there already. So instead, I spend most of my time actually doing things with it. Do I miss that time spend hacking around trying to get things to work decently? No, of course not. I spend most of it reading Slashdot...
So for me, the question is "How do I get a decent environment to work in?" And while customisation (like skinning) is an answer, it's the wrong answer. The right answer is to provide decent software to start with.
(* 'we geeks prefer customisation', not 'us geeks'. You wouldn't say 'us prefer', would you? Addition of the extra qualifier doesn't alter the noun case. And yes, I am a member of the Campaign for Real Pedantry. CaRP, for short.)
(** I am of course talking about Mac OS X. I did use Mac OS 9 for six months, and hated every minute. There was a system that did half of everything wrong, and provided absolutely no way to escape, either. For an old-school Unix hacker like me, it was purgatory.)
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
Can someone kindly explain to me the difference between a netbook and a laptop? Granted I haven't been computer shopping in a while, but suddenly everyone is talking about 'netbooks' like they are some great new thing? Is it just a smaller laptop?
Or maybe, Linux is crap and hes just telling the truth?
Seriously, How the fuck is he anti-Linux when he concedes that Linux is a good choice for a webserver and probably for a Desktop.
How interesting that the moment somebody tells you the truth about Linux some linux fanatic like you has to discredit the person by using some stupid logic instead of adressing the argument.
Congratulations on reaching 1%. Took you guys what? 20 years? Clap Clap...
Dell has done a very good job in this area. I recently purchased my Mini 9 a couple of weeks back with Ubuntu and am extremely satisfied. Worked right out of the box, Dell has a nice quick launch bar interface by default that lets you quickly try out some of the capability like browsing the web or playing with the webcam. Wireless works without a hitch - almost - I'm having trouble with statically assigned addresses, but for your normal DHCP roaming operations it finds and connects to hotspots easily.
Couple of surprises: It has a recovery CD, which includes a USB boot image (the Mini 9 does not come with a CD - purchased separately). Also, I bought this to use while out stargazing. I thought I would need to install KStars, but it already came with a stargazing utility preinstalled (a gnome app - fairly nice, forgot the name). I ended up installing KStars anyway - again no problem using the package management system built in.
"We've been looking into the battery options for netbooks as well - we think three cells ought to be enough for anybody."*
*(not an actual quote)
Bow-ties are cool.
Oh really? If that's so, someone should ask "Lenovo's Worldwide Competitive Analyst" why they're gutting support for Windows on the Thinkpad line. For years, one of the biggest competitive advantages for the Thinkpad line has been the Thinkvantage software that checks the hardware and downloads+installs the latest drivers and updates. This is a tremendous boon for mid-size enterprises and soho market.
About a month ago, and with less than 24 hrs notice, Lenovo announced the discontinuation the whole Windows update system and archive, instead recommending that Windows users should look up their systems using the PN/FRU, check the date and release of each update and driver against the product matricies (about 30-40 distinct drivers and updates per machine) and download what they need and manually install it. (I feel bad for those with custom-built Thinkpads which have different configs using the same PN/FRU.) Sounds like Lenovo is hell-bent on trying to make the Windows experience like Linux 10 years ago.
This is a far cry from "[Windows] just makes more sense: you just take it out of the box and it's ready to go. No. Really, not. Not even close.
But this may be academic in the near term, with Windows 7 spitting on customers with things like an auto-shutdown feature on one side, and reviews on the other saying that the Linux experience is trumping even OS X at this point. (CNet says Ubuntu 9.04 as slick as Windows 7, Mac OS X .) Lenovo's right hand not knowing that its left is chopping down support for Windows to the bare minimums is... curious.
I think not...(*poof*)
Playing commercial DVDs is a particular licensing issue -- and the sole hassle for non-tech users on Ubuntu -- but still, it's a 3-line installation affair, and not hard to find. Installing DVD playback support is fully documented on a single Ubuntu page. Finding and installing those wierd Windows codecs is hard? Codec installation is on the same page, and it's a one command line. Sure, I wish there was a big red button on the middle of the screen to help the helpless, but four command lines to gobble up and recreate the media experience of an entirely separate operating system and dozens of media formats ain't bad, especially given the legal prohibitions surrounding it.
Not sure what your URL issues was -- dvd:// is about as standard as donutandcoffee:// (IANA says the proper URI for what you want is file://)-- if you want a particular shortcut or alias to have an os-specific or personal name, then you need to take care of that yourself. While you're at it, why not rename "Trash" to "Recycle Bin"? Makes about as much sense.
Look, I know I'm teetering on the edge of becoming an Ubuntu evangelist, but not without good reason. Someone already commented above that the Lenovo wonk saying "Linux, even if you've got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows" is dope-smoking nonsense. Many (5+) years ago that was so, but now you run into this only if you're using particularly weird hardware, and even then, chances of long-tail support are better with Linux. I recently picked up a top-end Lenovo Thinkpad, a laptop with the latest high-end graphics, and oddities like a built-in card reader, and it all worked *flawlessly* in the default installation. Nothing on Windows even comes close to the Linux experience using Sane for my high-speed scanner: I plugged in the USB cable, and the app figured it out and gave me a read-to-scan interface without a single keystroke or mouse click. With the same installation, I walked into my brother's house, plugged in his scanner to continue working... and I didn't have to download a 260MB driver package from HP as all Windows users must. This is the kind of Windows hassle that literally makes novice users cry, and in Linux.. it just works.
That said, XP ain't bad, and I don't recommend people change things that ain't too broken. But I'm not seeing any compelling reason to use newer versions of Windows, other than an overarching phobia of minor changes and nonexistent problems.
I think not...(*poof*)
Could it be that people such as you describe do exist, but discovered there's no money to be made on the home desktop, and specialized on selling to the enterprise?
Netbooks address a niche-segment in the pc market space, which I believe is a good chunk. A case in focus is me, I have a heavy duty machine at office, another one at home. I wanted a laptop for my adhoc travel needs. Like when I am on a trip, a trek or just spending a couple of days with my bachelor friends. A full sized laptop is very inconvenient, I cant even imagine taking it along for a trek. A netbook fits into this space very snugly. I can carry it wherever I may go without feeling the weight or attracting attention. Linux has come of age even when it comes to desktops/laptops. people who think otherwise haven't still opened their eyes. I knew Linux has arrived when my 5 year old niece asked my sis to switch to Ubuntu.
Live Life Raw
My girlfriend who barely knows what a mouse is, knows how to operate Ubuntu 9, my childeren daughters 4,7,11 years old know how to operate linpus lite, ..
Linux is so fucking easy these days it doesn't take a genius to figur out how to operate it, .. and my girlfriend is used to using windows XP however she had no trouble using my laptop with ubuntu loaded, .. she didn't even realize that she was using linux until I told her, she doesn't even know what linux is. She noticed that the interface was a bit different but aside from that she could figur out what to do and trust me when i tell you that she isn't the smartest person around especially not when it comes to computers.
With laptops becoming lighter and more powerful, and cell phones getting more powerful, it seems that the netbook is filling a very small niche. I for one can't see any use for a netbook, now. Just having a portable web-browser with a few productivity apps is served very well by my iPhone. As for incredible all-around computing power with good portability -- I have a 13" Macbook running Mac OS-X and Ubuntu (I'll probably put XP or Vista on it, too). The comments about Linux are puzzling -- I haven't run into anyone who has had as much trouble with Linux as with Vista. I think that most of those who purchase netbooks may be computer novices who don't know what Linux is, and may have returned their netbooks without even trying it. I've seen a netbook with an 8Gb flashdrive, no CD drive and 2 usbports selling for over $300.00, and then I saw a really small laptop (Acer I think) with a 120Gb harddrive and CD drive and many usb drives for almost the same price. What gives? It makes be think that the whole netbook thing is a scam.