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US To Require That New Cars Get 42 MPG By 2016

Hugh Pickens writes "New cars and trucks will have to get 30 percent better mileage starting in 2016 under an Obama administration move to curb emissions tied to smog and global warming. While the 30 percent increase would be an average for both cars and light trucks, the percentage increase in cars would be much greater, rising from the current 27.5 mpg standard to 42 mpg. Environmentalists praised the move. Carl Pope, executive director of the Sierra Club, called it 'one of the most significant efforts undertaken by any president, ever, to end our addiction to oil and seriously slash our global warming emissions.' Obama's plan also would effectively end litigation between states and automakers that had opposed state-specific rules, arguing that having to meet several state standards would be much more expensive for them than just one federal rule. The Detroit News reported that automakers were on board with the new rule and had worked with the administration on creating a timeline for the transition." There's a case to be made that raising the CAFE won't save oil or reduce greenhouse gases.

156 of 1,186 comments (clear)

  1. Automakers by XanC · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course automakers are "on board"! They're now pawns of the government, just like the banks. Do you think they could really go against anything the administration wants?

    Basically now Obama can do whatever he wants. He's playing all the hands himself.

    1. Re:Automakers by tcopeland · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > They're now pawns of the government, just like the banks.

      No way man! Their CEOs will fight back to keep the company viable! Oh wait... to quote Pete Hoekstra:

      The Obama administration fired (GM CEO) Wagoner. Is (new CEO) Henderson going to resist? I don't think so.

      Some numbers and more analysis are on Planet Gore.

    2. Re:Automakers by frieko · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We're probably boned either way, but at the moment I'm less distressed with the president buying corporations than I was with corporations buying the president.

    3. Re:Automakers by hardburn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Clarkson is for entertainment. He's not to be cited as an authority on anything besides what Clarkson's opinion is.

      --
      Not a typewriter
    4. Re:Automakers by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I say, it's about time, really. 42 mpg sounds rather high - but only because we haven't even TRIED. Remember the oil embargo of the '70's? Congress mandated some radical new goals for fuel mileage way back then, to help break our dependence on foreign oil. They even set the national speed limit at 55mph to save fuel. All sorts of drastic measures were taken.

      Joe Sixpack and Detroit, in their infinite wisdom (selfishness) decided to create new "cars" built on truck frames, which would be exempt from fuel mileage requirements.

      Ingenuity, huh? Well, that ingenuity has finally come back to bite Joe and Detroit in the ass. Today, we finally start seriously saving fuel, or else.

      I like it.

      (note - I'm not a demoncrat, I'm not an Obama cultist, I'm not even some tree hugging activist. It just makes sense to stop WASTING everything we can, just because we can.)

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    5. Re:Automakers by ndixon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a European (British, but I consider it a region of Europe), I find it strange that 42mpg seems so draconian.

      For the last decade at least, the UK and the rest of Europe has had diesel cars the size of an Accord / Aura / Fusion which could average 42mpg (50mpg Imp.) in mixed driving - at least it was never a problem for me - urban driving reduces the mileage of course.

      My Octavia (basically a Jetta liftback with a cheaper badge) averages 45-50mpg (55-60 Imp.) on my 30-mile runs to work; and there's enough room for a 6-footer to be comfortable (more head- and leg-room than a Freelander or a RAV4).

      My wife's Renault Clio averages 60mpg (72mpg Imp.) when I drive it, and the driving position doesn't feel cramped.

      These are not hybrids, by the way. Even the Freelander and RAV4 can achieve 35mpg with a diesel engine.

      Since we're paying the equivalent of $8/gallon for fuel over here, cars like this make a lot of sense.

      --
      Oh, how convenient: a theory about God that doesn't involve looking through a telescope.
    6. Re:Automakers by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ingenuity, huh? Well, that ingenuity has finally come back to bite Joe and Detroit in the ass. Today, we finally start seriously saving fuel, or else.

      Or else what? There's no laws, rules, or even social norms to discourage me from driving a 10 liter 3 ton pickup truck everywhere I go, in point of fact, we own a 5.9 liter 1/2 ton truck that could be used as our daily driver if we wanted, we choose to leave it parked unless needed, but my wife likes to drive it when the weather is foul because it makes her feel safer.

      The real waste in our two driver household is actually the third vehicle - we probably emitted more carbon footprint in the purchase of our "lightweight" around town car than we will save in fuel consumption difference over its lifetime. I didn't do a carbon analysis, but dollar-wise, assuming the (purchased at 1 year old) $13K commuter lasts 8 years and resells for $1K, that's $1500 per year in capital costs, plus about $500/yr in additional insurance / maintenance, so we'd have to save 800 gallons a year (at $2.50/gallon) to make the choice truly economical. Say the truck gets 12mpg and the car gets 36 (to be really generous, our car gets more like 27 around town)... we'd need to transfer about 14,400 miles per year from the truck to the car to "break even" on fuel consumption dollars. Considering that the car has only been driven about 12,000 miles a year, it's not really saving us money. What it is doing is giving us a small, easy to park "right sized" vehicle to serve our around town driving. It looks more economical than going everywhere in the truck, but it isn't.

      We have legitimate reasons for using the truck, about 10 times a year. Renting might be slightly more economical, but it completely destroys the convenience and power of owning your own vehicle, ready at a moment's notice. There's also the convenience of the redundant backup, the "third" vehicle is 19 years old - well maintained, but about once a year it needs some repairs and it's nice to be able to park it and do the repairs at leisure rather than having the pressure of "needing" the vehicle. The truck is 10 years old, so it's going to start falling into that periodic repair category soon too.

      Legislating increased fuel economy in new vehicles isn't biting anyone in the ass. It's about time, just like in the late '60s / early '70s, our engine technology is producing more power than is really useful for getting from A to B. It's about time to turn that technology away from making overpowered vehicles into making them more efficient, just like they did with the initial CAFE standards. The free market clearly values "fun" over efficiency, and why not? Life is short. It won't seriously hurt anyone's happiness for CAFE to rise by 30%, electronic engine management systems can pull off that and more, but not without additional incentives outside the free market.

    7. Re:Automakers by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We're probably boned either way, but at the moment I'm less distressed with the president buying corporations than I was with corporations buying the president.

      This is a vast centralization of power with greater opportunities for abuse of power and future corruption than merely renting the presidency would provide. For example, who will defend the interests of the car industry in this gas mileage proposal from the US government now that the US government owns two of the three big companies? It's real convenient for Obama that he took out a considerable portion of the opposition to the proposal.

      In comparison, a business can bribe the president, but as an A.C. replier noted, they're one among many. Their influence is diluted. They also run various risks from getting caught to being punished for supporting a group that fell from power. Sure a business can get tremendous wealth by playing the political game, but they risk much in the process.

    8. Re:Automakers by ndixon · · Score: 3, Informative

      I know. The ratio is about 5:6.

      If you read my post again, carefully, you will notice that I've included both figures (US and UK).

      The numbers in bold are the US figures.

      --
      Oh, how convenient: a theory about God that doesn't involve looking through a telescope.
    9. Re:Automakers by ndixon · · Score: 2, Informative

      For the third time:

      Read my post again!

      You'll see that I wrote:

      42mpg (50mpg Imp.)

      and

      45-50mpg (55-60 Imp.)

      and

      60mpg (72mpg Imp.)

      So you see, I know about the 20% difference, and I even displayed both figures, so dumb folk don't have to calculate it.

      When I write: 45-50mpg, that's in your smaller US 3.785 liter gallons. Okay? (Look, I even spelt litre your way)

      I will concede that the official combined MPG figure for an Octavia 2.0 TDI is only 51.4mpg (UK), and that's only just above 42mpg (US).

      But that only proves my point: the proposed mileage is achievable now, from normal, big-enough, fast-enough cars available now, and it's been possible for many years already.

      The only problem is that the US hasn't caught up with Europe.

      --
      Oh, how convenient: a theory about God that doesn't involve looking through a telescope.
    10. Re:Automakers by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sigh. If you weren't so busy creaming yourself in your rush to "correct" the GP, you might have noticed that he was very careful to distinguish between US gallons and British ("Imperial") gallons.

      42mpg (US gallons) does seem like a reasonable average for the standard mileage in the UK already, with compact and subcompact turbodiesels returning higher values. Gasoline engines now tend to only feature as small (sub 1.4 litre, including some 3 cylinder) units in subcompacts, as 1.6 - 2.0 litre units in the cheapo consumer base models of compacts and above, and as V6 units in 'performance' or luxury cars. Everything else uses highly efficient low pressure turbodiesel engines, that pull - literally - like trains. Big gasoline engines are nearly extinct now, since a modern turbodiesel can wipe the floor with a gasoline engine while returning much better economy with only slightly less refinement.

      That's why this mileage target isn't a stretch at all; the big 3 can just start selling the cars they already make. What'll be an issue is getting enough diesel into the pumps and (seriously) what to do with all the gasoline that won't be wanted any more.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    11. Re:Automakers by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Replace "President" with "People of the United States"

      Replace "President" with "Chancellor" and you might start to get an idea what has people worried.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    12. Re:Automakers by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What you really mean is, "I am one of those arrogant pricks written about in "The Ugly American", and I have a RIGHT to be wasteful. Because I am an American, I have the right to burn thousands of gallons of fuel every year for no better purpose than to poison the planet."

      Wake up and smell the coffee. Life is changing. Adapt, or go the way of the neanderthal. Your ancestors who lived through the depression would be ashamed of you.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    13. Re:Automakers by artemis67 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with the CAFE standard is that it fails to address the most fundamental problem with oil prices -- the fact that the oil industry is run by a cartel, and they control the output.

      Overall, cars have become significantly more efficient over the last 30 years -- so why are we paying so much more per gallon than we did in the 70's and 80's? (Inflation, sure, but oil prices have well outpaced inflation.)

      Obama can raise the CAFE standard to 42 MPG, and the oil industry will scale back production to increase the price.

    14. Re:Automakers by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not a fan of this legislation, but not because I care about a couple of out-dated car manufacturers aren't around to whine about it.

      That's nice. I understand the sentiment. Not relevant to the discussion though. The problem is that Obama just eliminated considerable opposition to this gas mileage proposal by bailing out two of the auto makers. This is a small sample of why government ownership of business is far worse than business bribing government.

  2. Mostly just for cars by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The average for light trucks would rise from 24 mpg to 26.2 mpg.

    It appears SUVs will continue to have pretty horrible gas mileage.

    1. Re:Mostly just for cars by RoFLKOPTr · · Score: 4, Informative

      If manufacturers can get a 3/4 ton pickup or similar to get 26 mpg, I'd be impressed.

      Did you really mean 3 or 4 tons rather than three quarters of a ton?

      No. "3/4-ton pickup" used to signify a pickup that could haul 1500 lbs without too much strain. Same goes for half-ton and full-ton... 1000lbs and 2000lbs, respectively. I say "used to", though, because trucks can typically haul much more than that, though they still use those same phrases as an easy way to compare the capacity of different trucks.

    2. Re:Mostly just for cars by Cimexus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Honestly? I'm slightly over 6 ft and drive a standard Toyota Camry. With the drivers seat in the furthest back position, I find the leg room adequate? Admittedly I'm not American but I'm pretty sure the Camry is sold in the US market and I doubt the size is any different?

      I'm not doubting you, but I'm just a bit confused since I always thought American cars were huge (bigger than anything you can buy in my country).

      Of course, if you are ~substantially~ over 6 ft, and not just slightly over, like me, then yeah, I can understand the problem ;)

    3. Re:Mostly just for cars by Martin+Blank · · Score: 4, Funny

      The new Slashcode includes a feature that randomly changes punctuation marks on clicking Submit.

      OK, maybe not, but with all the other weird things happening around here lately, can you really rule it out?

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    4. Re:Mostly just for cars by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Then you would be impressed with Toyota's Hilux. (PDF).

      32 highway, 23 city, 28 combined. Not sure what the '3/4 ton' refers to but, it can both tow and carry that. 1500 lbs = 680. kg, all of which it can handle without a problem.

    5. Re:Mostly just for cars by Bored+Grammar+Nazi · · Score: 5, Funny

      Before you say "well drive a car", well if I could find a car for someone my size I would easily drive a car. I cannot find a car that fits someone of my height and girth, thus I HAVE to drive an SUV.

      Or you could also, like, exercise a bit from time to time and eat healthier.

    6. Re:Mostly just for cars by Cimexus · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ah the Hilux. Utterly ubiquitous in my home country of Australia. Seriously, they outnumber every other light utility vehicle on the road put together.

      And as Top Gear showed us, virtually indestructible ;)

    7. Re:Mostly just for cars by XDirtypunkX · · Score: 5, Interesting

      A friend of mine who is 6'8" and well over 300 pounds has no trouble in my 3 door Audi S3. That's a hatchback.

      Sure, he has to adjust the seat a lot, but he fits no problems, passenger or driver.

    8. Re:Mostly just for cars by mspohr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you have articulated the solution to the problem. It's a folly to mandate fuel efficiency since people will try to find a way around the regulations. Your post shows that when you increase the price of fuel, there is a powerful incentive to get better mileage. Here in Switzerland we don't have CAFE but almost everyone drives small fuel efficient cars. Fuel is the equivalent of about $6.00 a gallon. Problem solved. All we need is a carbon tax or fuel tax and people will reduce CO2 emissions.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    9. Re:Mostly just for cars by Anaerin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Easy. Here in Canada we use Diesel at -40 (C or F, they're the same at that point), with no problems. It's a matter of additives, block heaters, and glow plugs. But as that's standard for most automobiles here (gas or diesel), it's pretty much moot point.

    10. Re:Mostly just for cars by RubberDogBone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are other passive or near passive things.

      Take the extra crap out of the trunk. Take the food wrappers out of the back seat.

      When approaching a traffic signal that is yellow or red, lay the hell off the gas and coast toward it. Too many people floor it toward red lights, for what? You can't GO anywhere.

      Drive with no more than half a tank of fuel. Extra fuel is extra weight. If you know you won't be able to get more fuel, ok, fine. But if you are in a typical area with plenty of places to refuel, then don't haul around more than you need. For me, a half a tank is about four days worth of driving so plenty of time to get more when it gets low.

      Drive 5mph slower than you usually do. This means you're probably still over the speed limit but what the heck. Unless you are driving really long distances, slowing down by 5 or 10 won't actually take that much longer to get where you are going, but it will save gas and maybe avoid tickets if your town is like mine these days.

      --
      Sig for hire.
    11. Re:Mostly just for cars by 10Ghz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, well, just try and deal with diesel fuel at 10 below zero (F).

      -10f is about -23c. Sounds pretty typical winter in Finland, and we are managing just fine with diesel. Well, people up in north started having some problems with diesel-cars when temperature dropped to about -35c (that's.... -31f) few years ago.

      --
      Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
    12. Re:Mostly just for cars by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's God's car, he sprinkled them all over the outback so nobody ever runs out of spare parts.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    13. Re:Mostly just for cars by epine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm 6'5" with most of my height in my back. My brother at 6'2" has the same leg length. My chiro thinks I'm 6'7" because of the length of my back. I don't get this leg length thing.

      In almost *every* vehicle I've driven, I crank the seat almost as far forward as it will go, then tip the seat back until my head doesn't hit the roof. If I stretch out my legs at the same time, my shoulders end up in the back seat, and I can barely reach the wheel. People who complain about leg room have never suffered insufficient head room. On an aircraft with my knees jammed into the seat in front of me, if I tip my head back, it's a 90 degree bend before my head rests on the seat top. I'm nose to the air vents.

      Long ago on trans Atlantic flights I learned to rip the seat cushion off the aluminum air frame (usually velcro) if I wanted to sleep for a couple of hours. Talk about hard and cold, but it beats sleeping in the chin on sternum position.

      One time sitting in the aisle seat I managed to corkscrew myself sideways far enough to sleep with my ear on the headrest. The flight attendant rammed the beer cart of Lilliputian portions into my kneecap as hard as she could three times before I managed to regain consciousness, determine the source of the red flashes (oh, that's my pain system), and complete the origami move to remove my knee from the battering path. I've never slept well on a plane since.

      Trucks, SUVs, whatever, they all lack headroom. Thirty years ago I had an Austin America where I could sit up straight. This is because the top of the seat cushion was about 4" off the floor boards. Loved it. If they add comfort, I'm screwed, no matter how much hulking metal they mold around it.

      These days I'm getting 8.8 liters/100km (27 U.S. MPG according to Google calc.) in a 1991 Toyota pickup with a heavy, indestructible, yet somewhat underpowered engine (50% city, 50% highway, by minutes operated). If you goose it a bit on the flat, it'll happily do 140kph up an 8 percent grade in the BC interior (two occupants, no load). However, if you fall below 110kph, you're unlikely to recover without taking 3rd gear into jet engine territory. The engine is plenty adequate if you plan ahead, not so adequate for whims and impulses.

      The real problem here is people purchasing enough engine displacement to carry a Bigfoot camper while towing a 30 foot boat across the Rockies, and then using it half the time to drive down the street to fetch a six pack.

      There's no way to idle a huge displacement engine efficiently. I've long suspected that the trick of turning off two cylinders only gets you half the benefit of not having those two extra cylinders in the first place.

      The other thing is that I'm moderately heavy on the gas pedal, light on the brake pedal. (I've read that peak fuel conversion efficiency typically corresponds 2/3rds of max. engine output.) Light on the brake pedal requires more traffic anticipation than the average person can muster while talking on a cell phone. I can usually detect these people pretty quickly. They're the ones riding up my ass while I coast up to a red light (or one that is about to become red long before I get there), make an abrupt lane change to pass me, then come to an abrupt halt when the light actually turns red.

      MPG figures are pretty much useless if they aren't evaluated in terms of the actual driver and typical trip conditions (e.g. three mile round trip of road range while talking on a cell phone to fetch a six pack).

    14. Re:Mostly just for cars by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But then their manhood will be threatened, for no-one will buy the truck that does that, rather than "V8 TITAN 5.5L SUPERDUTY". You know what's really fucking horrible, seeing that on a pickup, with a four wheel rear axle, no tow hook, internal or external to be seen, and half the time a hood... what exactly do you need that engine for, again?

    15. Re:Mostly just for cars by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative

      3/4 ton refers to the cargo capacity within the bed box, not the towing capacity.

    16. Re:Mostly just for cars by qc_dk · · Score: 4, Informative

      Or you could actually try different cars instead of going directly for the SUV. I'm 6'5'' and 275 pounds. My lower legs are long so they tend to get in trouble with the steering wheel. I can't drive a corvette because my knee gets stuck between the door and the steering wheel. A Hummer is also out of the question there's no room. I've also tried driving an Escalade with hilarious result. However, i fit fine in a smart car(1) or my parents' toyota yaris verso(2).

      1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Fortwo
      2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Vitz

    17. Re:Mostly just for cars by gmarsh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here's how I fish:

      (1) Grab fishing rod and tackle box.
      (2) Dig up a few worms from the garden
      (3) Walk to a nearby lake, 15-30 minute walk depending on where I go.
      (4) Fish.
      (5) Walk home.

      If you need to burn 300 gallons of gas to go fishing, you're doing something seriously wrong.

    18. Re:Mostly just for cars by FatAlb3rt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know what's really fucking horrible, seeing that on a computer, with a quad-core CPU, just for a browser and email, and half the time idle... what exactly do you need that CPU for, again?

      Fixed that for ya. Just because his toys don't appeal to you doesn't make it wrong.

    19. Re:Mostly just for cars by default+luser · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that most community slips start at (high) hundreds of dollars per-year, and popular locations can run you thousands of dollars per-year. The fact is, there is limited marina space keeping in-water storage prices high, so if your boat is of the portable size, it's likely cheaper to keep it at home. This goes double if you already have reasons for owning a pickup truck.

      When you can purchase a used 15-20' sailboat for under $2000, it's outrageous to think you'd spend that much yearly just to store it. Most people don't have that kind of money for a hobby.

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

  3. i have a chill... by saiha · · Score: 5, Funny

    42 you say?

    1. Re:i have a chill... by WSOGMM · · Score: 2, Funny

      After some complex math in our local bistro.

  4. Well played, Mr. President by adf92343414 · · Score: 2, Funny

    As a Prius owner, I look forward to the day when I look at the cars on the road around me and say, "man, I wish I was driving one of those - they get serious mileage."

    1. Re:Well played, Mr. President by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a fellow inhabitant of the planet, I wish you had bought a Golf TDI, which has practically the same dimensions and performance, gets superior mileage in average driving, and which doesn't have all those batteries in it. They also have better visibility.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Well played, Mr. President by DittoBox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I see your Golf TDI and raise you a Bluemotion Polo.

      --
      Good. Cheap. Fast. Pick Two.
    3. Re:Well played, Mr. President by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 4, Informative

      I bought a Civic Hybrid (we need a back seat for the baby's car seat). It gets pretty good mileage - 37 city, 42 highway, in my experience (not quite what the EPA estimates were, at 40 city, 45 highway, but who expects that?).

      Unfortunately, Washington State will not let me register the car (which I purchased in Utah last month before I moved) as a Hybrid. Why? Because, according to the representative I spoke with on the phone, they only consider cars that get 50 mpg city to be hybrids, regardless of whether said car is actually a hybrid.

      According to the Toyota website, not even the Prius qualifies under that requirement (getting 48 city, 51 highway), but Washington's DMV lists the Prius and the Honda Insight as eligible hybrids. (Note that the Honda Insight doesn't meet that requirement either, getting 40 city, 43 highway.)

      I look forward to when most cars on the road get better gas mileage than me, too; but in the meantime, I would appreciate it if states got their act together.

    4. Re:Well played, Mr. President by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a past owner of both makes, I'll pick Toyota's quality and reliability over that of Volkswagen every time, thanks.

      My last Toyota saw me through more than twice as many miles as the Volkswagen it replaced; and then went off to college for four more years with my son. Both were bought new, by me, so no possibility of neglect by previous owners or such.

      The Prius isn't my first choice either. But I'll certianly not by a car again whose VIN doesn't start with a 'J'.

  5. Equilibrium dynamics by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's a case to be made that raising the CAFE won't save oil or reduce greenhouse gases.

    The link is really light on the math. In most systems that obey similar behavior, demand does increase, but the increase in demand does not completely erase the benefit of the increase in efficiency. In this case it can't completely erase the benefit, because if it did the end result would be a net increase in the price - and that was the original basis for the argument, that the drop in price would spur consumption. So the increase in demand has to fall short of that point.

    So in the end, demand will be somewhere higher than it is now, and the price somewhat lower, all else being equal. Where on the supply/demand curve things ultimately lie will depend on the relative elasticity of supply vs. elasticity of demand.

    1. Re:Equilibrium dynamics by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Besides, the historical data they're looking at was from an era of cheap gas. They world has changed. Now we need increased efficiency just to maintain the mileage we're all driving already - that is, just to occupy the suburbs we already built. Yeah, I know, gas is only $2.25 at the moment - but that's in the middle of a deep global recession! As the global economy recovers, you can bet your butt gas prices will soar again.

  6. Mod for existing vehicles by kkrajewski · · Score: 2, Funny

    Place a brick underneath the gas pedal.

    1. Re:Mod for existing vehicles by inasity_rules · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Use a plastic coke bottle. Its lighter, and in an emergency, you can crush it and get most of your acceleration back, so it is safer. Just remember to drink the coke first! :)

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
  7. Why always so far into the future? by line-bundle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why do administrations always set timetables beyond their terms? Remember Bush's "man on Mars"?

    1. Re:Why always so far into the future? by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Why do administrations always set timetables beyond their terms?"

      Is this a trick question?

      By setting timetables beyond their terms they get the brownie points for passing some retarded law, but they know they won't be around for the shit-storm of public backlash when the law actually goes into practice.

      Consider Kyoto, for example, which allowed the governments who ratified it to make a lot of fuss about how wonderfully 'green' they were, even though there was little to no possibility of most of them ever meeting the quota requirements which would be imposed many years later; by that time they'd probably be fat and happy on the lecture circuit while other politicos would be responsible for destroying their economy for no good reason to meet those quotas or the bad press if they failed to do so.

    2. Re:Why always so far into the future? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know how long it takes to bring a new car design to production? 2016 sounds pretty damned aggressive to me. Now, Bush I and II talking about men on Mars decades in the future...that's a different story.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  8. Smaller cars by Fleeced · · Score: 2, Insightful
    More well-intentioned, but IMO, misguided interference. It will have minimal effect on total emissions, but will probably mean smaller cars as a result.

    If people wanted smaller cars they'd be buying them... depriving them of this liberty under the guise of helping the environment (which this won't do) is a mistake.

    For the record, I am somewhat skeptical about the climate change hype - which I think is over-exaggerated. But even if I accept CO2 as a negative externality (which I don't), then the correct response is a carbon tax. Cost the stuff appropriately and let the market decide - don't legislate inefficient results. Don't let the government "pick winners" and definitely not a cap and trade, which is too open to corruption.

  9. Collusion by XanC · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's called "collusion", when the government isn't involved.

    1. Re:Collusion by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only if the goal is to set prices, not to improve quality. Is it collusion when computer manufacturers meet to make hardware standards, or software companies to standardize APIs and protocols?

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:Collusion by XanC · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's nothing to do with interoperability here.

      And the goal here isn't to improve quality, it's to lower it. People don't want these cars. They only way they can get away with making them is if they're the only cars people can buy.

    3. Re:Collusion by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If people don't want fuel-efficient cars, why do I see so many Minis and Smart FourTwos on the road?

    4. Re:Collusion by FooAtWFU · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because the people where you live have too much money, and like showing off how virtuously eco-huggy they are.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    5. Re:Collusion by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Too much money? Smart FourTwo MSRP: $11,990 - $16,990 That's hardly a luxury car price.

    6. Re:Collusion by Capsaicin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And the goal here isn't to improve quality, it's to lower it.

      Yes damnit! I want my car to be seriously fuel inefficient. Imagine, I'll be spending less on gas, and I'll be polluting less too! HOW DARE THEY!!!!!!

      Is it only me, or is party politcal tribalism a possible new DSM classification?

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    7. Re:Collusion by The+Grim+Reefer2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Imagine, I'll be spending less on gas, and I'll be polluting less too! HOW DARE THEY!!!!!!

      Why is it that everyone thinks that the most fuel efficient is also the least polluting? There are basically three ways to tune a car.
      1. For the most power
      2. For the best fuel efficiency
      3. For the lowest emissions

      If 1 is done correctly, the emissions shouldn't be much worse than in the case of 2, just different. That is unless you are running a pair of big ass carburetors on top of a tunnel ram.

      In the case of 2, you get the most mileage out of the fuel, however it's harder on the engine and doesn't burn the fuel as well causing more pollution Than 3.

      3 releases the least amount of bad stuff from the tailpipe, however at the cost of both 1 and 2.

      It all has to do with choosing the air-to-fuel ratio that is the best compromise for what you want. If you favor one over the others, in this case fuel economy, then you will sacrifice power and increase pollution.

      Personally I think it's past due for someone to start regulating commercial diesel trucks. Have you seen the amount of crap that comes out of some of the dump trucks and 18-wheelers? I bet one commercial diesel vehicle dumps more crap into the air than 100 cars/SUVs. Unfortunately that industry seems to have paid off the right people to keep it quiet while in plain view.

    8. Re:Collusion by frieko · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're both right. For every conscientious person, there's an asshole that follows his animal instinct to perpetually consume as much as he possibly can.

    9. Re:Collusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what you are saying is that people were already inclined to buy these cars and there was a well supported industry, and the government had no business comeing in and [messing] with it? Good, then we all agree. The most pollution is produced in the design and manufacturing of cars. Hybrid cars are the LEAST "green" friendly. So if people are going to be spouting this "green" crap, calling CO2 a pollutant, I wish these people would at least hold to a consistent story. You want to offset pollution in your city, cool. If you want to do "what's best for the planet", likely the best thing we could do is to renounce corrupt members of congress hell-bent on destroying it. http://www.globalwarmingheartland.org/

    10. Re:Collusion by Capsaicin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why is it that everyone thinks that the most fuel efficient is also the least polluting?

      All humour aside, bear in mind that 'pollution' in the present context means CO2.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    11. Re:Collusion by jeric23 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Trees breath CO2 all the time and during their photosynthesis process release O2 into the air. If you think CO2 is a pollutant, go plant more trees.

    12. Re:Collusion by stuff+and+such · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By that definition Nitrogen is a pollutant too, along with, well, any gas but Oxygen.

      --
      my UID occurs in pi starting at the 384,199 digit after the decimal point.
    13. Re:Collusion by confused+one · · Score: 3, Informative

      You realize that with every breath you take, you exhale CO2, right? The biological processes in your body generate CO2 as you burn sugar. CO2 blood concentration is used as the signal to control breathing rate. You are aware of this, no?

    14. Re:Collusion by Capsaicin · · Score: 4, Informative

      I just find this notion that CO2 is a pollutant quite absurd.

      I assure you, that is a problem just a little honest self-education will fix. You could start here: Fourth Assessment Report. It is difficult to find any other area of science where so much authoritative information has been so conveniently assembled. You can read just the executive summary or conveniently delve into the specifics of any area you choose. Really, on this issue ignorance is unforgivable. As is reliance on non-credible sources of pseudo-scientific disinformation.

      Because it's not so much as science as it is indoctrination by statist regimes usurping power and control.

      Or you can wallow in ignorance, self-delusion based on your particular ideological predilcctions. That's a choice you alone can make. Look, I'm no enemy of freedom or proponent of over-governance, far from it, but the Science here really does speak for itself.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    15. Re:Collusion by bzipitidoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're speaking of combustion engine tuning. There are many ways to improve all 3 of more power and more efficiency and less emissions. We have a ton of low hanging fruit we're ignoring. Here are 3 of them:

      Dump the "slushbox" (the conventional automatic transmission with torque converter). There are so many ways to get the efficiency of the manual with the convenience of the automatic that it's criminal that we aren't doing it. Next, manufacturers choose gear ratios that are good for jack rabbit starts and passing while going uphill and using the air conditioning, but which are terrible for fuel economy. High gear isn't nearly high enough.

      Another big one is weight reduction. We use steel because it's cheap, not because it's all that great. We can replace many steel parts with lighter ones that are just as strong or stronger. We could also revamp the safety regulations to keep things just as safe without having to weigh down the car with super strong B pillars and such. Why is it we can ride motorcycles, which are far more dangerous, but we can't bring a car from Mexico to the US because it isn't "safe" enough? We dumped the 5 mph bumper of the 1970s. We need to trim the regulations again.

      Then there's aerodynamics. Most vehicles are miserable on that point. Observe that the front grill openings of a typical car are much wider than necessary, extending well beyond the radiator. Why? Because people think it looks better that way. They've thought so for at least 50 years, and the limp noodles in marketing haven't bothered with any reeducation on that point. This purely cosmetic feature unnecessarily scoops a lot of air into the engine compartment, which acts a bit like a drag chute. It takes lots of energy to make air swirl violently around the engine compartment. That air has to go somewhere and it does. Most of it goes under the car, which has the worst aerodynamics of the whole body. But nobody pays attention to the underside of a car, and smoothing that out would cost a little more money, so it isn't done. But shrinking the grill openings would cost nothing. That's right, we waste gas over trivial appearances.

      Anyway, I disagree with this sort of ham handed management of fuel economy. Push the gas tax through the roof, and we customers will roast manufacturers who don't give us good fuel economy. We ought to bump the gas tax in the US up by 10 cents per gallon every month until we've added at least $1, then index it to inflation so it doesn't erode away like it has. No need for government fuel economy mandates. Make fuel economy worth having, and let the market figure out the details.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    16. Re:Collusion by DigiShaman · · Score: 2, Informative

      You could start here: Fourth Assessment Report [www.ipcc.ch]. It is difficult to find any other area of science where so much authoritative information has been so conveniently assembled. You can read just the executive summary or conveniently delve into the specifics of any area you choose. Really, on this issue ignorance is unforgivable.

      I just visited that website and reviewed all PDFs in their Glossary. Not once does it explicitly define CO2 as a pollutant.

      Please point me to a portion of their site that does, because I cannot find it.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    17. Re:Collusion by drsmithy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Electric motors make a lot of sense with trains, but not for hauling cargo on the road.

      It's the long hauling of cargo on roads, itself, that doesn't make sense.

    18. Re:Collusion by RsG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I just visited that website and reviewed all PDFs in their Glossary. Not once does it explicitly define CO2 as a pollutant.

      No, it wouldn't. Technically, I'm not sure I would either.

      The issue with CO2 is not pollution per se, it's one of imbalance. We do not generally define exhaled breath as "pollution", nor would we call CO2 from the decay of biomass such.

      Where CO2 from fossil fuels becomes an issue is carbon sink depletion. Carbon that was previously sequestered from the atmosphere for millenia as oil or coal is released predominantly be human activities. This throws the existing system out of whack. We don't know by how much - most estimates are pretty pessimistic, though even the optimistic ones aren't exactly reassuring.

      The CO2 coming out a vehicles tailpipe doesn't matter. The hydrocarbons going into the fuel tank do. If they're fossil fuel derived, burning them adds to the problem; otherwise, it's carbon-neutral. So, to give a hypothetical example, a heat engine that uses hydrocarbon fuel does not cause any problem if the carbon involved comes from inside the carbon cycle; think a bio-diesel IC engine.

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
    19. Re:Collusion by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you look up crash tests of the Smart ForTwo on youtube you might be surprised: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz-s1sIoLhU

      The Smart ForTwo's main advertising point (apart from it's small size and fuel efficiency) is the visible "Tridion" frame around the passenger compartment, showing that you're going to be safe.

      Now look up your BMW (I can't, as you didn't give the model).

    20. Re:Collusion by wagnerrp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Reading straight off the tech specs on the SmartUSA website, the lowest power fourtwo gets a whopping 33/41 estimated mpg. Add in a 0-60 speed of 12.8s, and its downright unsafe to try to enter the highway uphill or on a short ramp.

    21. Re:Collusion by Hognoxious · · Score: 5, Funny

      it turns out we detect lack of Oxygen by an excess of CO2, not by an actual lack of oxygen

      I will get round to changing that part sometime. It was meant as a quick workaround to get us through unit testing.

      Regards,
            God.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Collusion by inviolet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're both right. For every conscientious person, there's an asshole that follows his animal instinct to perpetually consume as much as he possibly can.

      It's not an asshole instinct, it's a mating instinct.

      Women control the womb-space, which means they set the terms of behavior that will be rewarded with mating opportunities. Western women presently pass out such rewards based in large part upon status -- or more precisely: upon status displays. Big ridiculous cars are an approved status display, which means they increase their owners' mating opportunities, which means people buy them.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    23. Re:Collusion by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't fool yourself. If the Earth had a chance, it would kill you in a minute. Don't give it that chance. Consume or be consumed.

      Hmmm, War on Earth. No wait, wrong administration. I meant Earth Based Contingency Operation.

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
    24. Re:Collusion by radtea · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or you can wallow in ignorance, self-delusion based on your particular ideological predilcctions.

      As do the people who believe the science on global climate change is certain, but who don't understand what it means that GCMs don't conserve energy in their basic equations.

      This drives me nuts: smug ignoramuses who couldn't integrate a first order PDE accurately to save their life telling me that scepticism toward anthropogenic climate change is self-delusion. It isn't self-delusion to note that GCMs are unphysical, crudely parameterized models that would take a miracle to get the SIGN of the response to a given climate forcing right much less magnitude or detailed geographic distribution.

      Ocean heat content appears to be a quite significant signal that the globe is warming (and has the added virtue of being thermodynamically meaningful) and it is unquestionably plausible based on modelling that CO2 and other anthropogenic contributions to greenhouse gases are very significant contributors to that phenomenon. But treating anyone who is a sceptic as delusional is as unscientific as the nutjobs who dismiss it all as a left-wing conspiracy.

      The science behind anthropogenic climate change is nothing like as solid as the advocates of particular political platforms would like it to be, and honest politicians (but I contradict myself) should be advocating minimal interventions based on the precautionary principle (that is, any government intervention carries huge risk, so we should be extremely cautious about intervening, in the same way any major climate change carries huge risk, so we should be extremely cautious about doing nothing.) Market-based solutions like cap and trade have been effective in other areas, and are probably the most reasonable precautionary measure with regard to CO2.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    25. Re:Collusion by FatAlb3rt · · Score: 3, Funny

      Probably for the same reason you see chihuahuas in purses.

    26. Re:Collusion by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm breathing Co2 right now, so are you.

      I'm not sure what your attempting to claim here but a lack of breathing Co2 us just as dangerous to humans and animals as too much Co2. If you look at the requirements for the OSHA confined space entry, there is a minimum and a maximum Co2 level required before you can enter without self contained or supplied breathing equipment.

      Don't confuse the overdose of something for the regular effects. Acetaminophen can cause liver failure but not in the normal dosages. Alcohol poisoning can kill a person but no one things one or two glasses of wine a week is a bad thing, in fact, some studies show it is beneficial. So lets put our critical thinking hats on and remain without reason when discussing crap like this.

    27. Re:Collusion by Alsee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yet, I don't think in this politically charged atmosphere we are going to find anything but politically patronized studies.

      How about basic physics?

      Visible solar energy - sunlight - comes down through the atmosphere, strikes and warms the surface of the earth, and then is released as infrared thermal radiation. The atmosphere is like a transparent window to visible light, but it is a partially-dark window in the infrared. The solar energy comes down and warms the earth, but the heat is partially blocked and has trouble escaping to cool the earth back down. The "greenhouse effect".

      The normal greenhouse effect is already about 50 degrees F. Before pollution, before cars, before the industrial revolution, before anything, the normal earth greenhouse effect and the normal CO2 levels and other atmospheric greenhouse gases already keeping the earth about 50 degrees F warmer than it would be without the greenhouse effect. The non-greenhouse-effect state of the planet would be sub-freezing-point almost from pole to pole.

      Venus is a bit closer to the sun and it gets a fair percentage stronger sunlight than the earth, but that's not why Venus is so hot. The surface of Venus is hot enough to melt soft metal, because the planet has a thick atmosphere of mostly CO2. The atmosphere is a completely black closed window to infrared light.

      The thicker the greenhouse blanket is, the more heat it traps. It is trivial provable directly testable fact that CO2 and methane and other greenhouse gases factually *do* let sunlight come in and then act to block infrared heat from escaping. The thicker the blanket, the warmer you get under that blanket.

      As far as I am aware, no one disputes the fact that earth's CO2 levels were about 260ppm before the industrial revolution.

      As far as I am aware, no one disputes the fact that earth's CO2 levels have now risen to over 380ppm.

      As far as I am aware, no one disputes the fact that we are currently emitting about 27 GIGAtons of CO2 per year. (Note: All volcanoes combined release somewhere in the ballpark of 200 megatons of CO2 per year.)

      As far as I am aware, no one disputes the fact that the CO2 increase in the atmosphere is due almost exclusively to man made causes, primarily the burning of fossil fuels.

      As far as I am aware, no one disputes that methane levels (an even more powerful greenhouse gas) have also shot up due to man-made causes.

      As far as I am aware, no one disputes that Chlorofluorocarbons and other artificial compounds are of exclusively man-made origins, and that they have a vastly more powerful greenhouse effect than CO2.

      The simple physics that certain atmospheric gases *do* let in warming sunlight energy and then block the escape of heat, the simple physics that a thicker blanket of those gases traps more heat, and the undisputed fact that humans have increased the levels of those gases in the atmosphere and even introduced new more powerful ones, that leads to the absolute result that yes, the effect real, it is a warming effect, and that human activities are causing this effect.

      The size of the effect is a complex issue. There are other effects operating in parallel with this effect, making things even more complex. Predicting the future impact this will have on the global climate is extremely difficult and extremely complex. Predicting the secondary impacts this effect will have on the planet and upon us is insanely difficult. Deciding what, if anything, we should do about it is an economic and political question, not a scientific issue.

      However what is simple is that this effect is real. It exists. It is an indisputable scientific fact.

      There can be rational discussion of the size of the effect, there absolutely is substantial uncertainty in trying to predicting the future growth of the effect and trying to model what impact it will have on the overall climate, there absolutely is substantial uncertainty in the secondary impacts it will cause, there absolutely is substa

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  10. Saving the planet one Hummer at a time. by burnin1965 · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's a case to be made that raising the CAFE won't save oil or reduce greenhouse gases.

    <sarcasm>
    I think it was established as a well known fact that driving a Hummer is many times more environmentally friendly than a little Prius. If Obama was truly interested in saving the planet he would mandate that every commuter drives a Hummer and we scrap these pointless high MPG cars.
    </sarcasm>

    1. Re:Saving the planet one Hummer at a time. by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, what that study showed is that if you get 200,000 miles out of a Prius and a Hummer, they'll have similar energy costs. How likely is a Prius to run more than 200,000 miles? It has a teensy tiny little high-performance (for what it is) engine in it. Granted, only Diesel Hummers are likely to make more than 200k, and they are in the minority. Either way, if you're buying a new car to save the planet you're a dipshit :D

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Saving the planet one Hummer at a time. by winwar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Actually, what that study showed is that if you get 200,000 miles out of a Prius and a Hummer, they'll have similar energy costs."

      Huh? Considering that the Prius gets over twice the mileage of a Hummer, I find that hard to believe. Having said that I certainly wouldn't trade my used car for a Prius-doesn't make enconomic sense.

      And the Prius will certainly use LESS energy. Most of the energy associated with vehicles comes from driving.

      "Either way, if you're buying a new car to save the planet you're a dipshit :D"

      True. About as useful as calling a large house in the suburbs "green". :)

    3. Re:Saving the planet one Hummer at a time. by winwar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This of course doesn't really apply to cars. Most energy use occurs due to driving the car, not its manufacture.

      It may not apply to large energy sucking appliances either....

    4. Re:Saving the planet one Hummer at a time. by mosb1000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is more of an environmental cost to producing a new car than the just the energy used to produce it. . .

    5. Re:Saving the planet one Hummer at a time. by burnin1965 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, what that study showed is that if you get 200,000 miles out of a Prius and a Hummer, they'll have similar energy costs.

      Actually, what the study showed was that if you wrote a report with complete bullshit absurdities you could convince some people that a gigantic vehicle that gets 14 MPG average would have better or equivalent energy consumption to a small vehicle that gets 46 MPG.

      Some people tried to analyse what little information was available about the report and found absurdities such as the Hummer H3 rated at 207,000 miles in its lifetime and the Prius at only 109,000 miles. While still others ran known models that are used to measure life cycle energy consumption and even when using the absurdities from the Dust to Dust report they still could not produce the ridiculous energy consumption numbers from the report.

      The fact is that more than 80% of an automobiles life cycle energy is consumed in the operation of the vehicle. That bit of information makes it virtually impossible for a vehicle that consumes more than 3x the operating energy of a smaller car to some how use less or the same amount of energy as the small car over their life cycles.

      As far as new versus old, just as its a no brainer that a small fuel efficient car will consume less total energy than a monster SUV its also obvious that buying a new car will not magically reduce total energy consumption. However, since we know autos have a life cycle there will be a need for many new vehicles so it may not be a bad idea to use some of our no brainer knowledge to have a positive impact on our energy consumption.

    6. Re:Saving the planet one Hummer at a time. by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, what that study showed is that if you get 200,000 miles out of a Prius and a Hummer, they'll have similar energy costs.

      Wrong. The study made a number of flawed assumptions, as highlighted in the link, such as that the lifetime mileage of a Prius is 109,000 miles, while the Hummer H3 gets 207,000 and the H1 379,000 miles. So yes, if your Prius craps out in 1/3 the time of the H1, you're going to get a worse overall energy cost. On the other hand, Vancouver cab companies have already clocked over 200,000 miles on Priuses without even replacing the batteries, so they don't seem particularly fragile. And there's no particular evidence that any brand of Hummer is going to last that long either. So yes, if you start with biased assumptions, you will find the Prius has similar energy costs.

      --
      $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
  11. Good luck! by mister_playboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Vehicles have simply gotten too heavy of late for this to be feasible without a big change in the way vehicles are powered... if we could join the efficiency of modern engines with the weight of vehicles from the early to mid 1980's, we would could meet this goal using existing technology.

    This will be the death knell for trucks and SUVs based upon them... the laws of physics mean there just not going to reach these goals cheaply (or perhaps at all), and they will die for all non-necessary purposes.

    Good riddance... maybe I'll be able to see traffic lights again without being buried amongst an oversized mob of excessively tall vehicles, or blinded by headlights that are at the same elevation at the roof of my car.

    I will miss multi-cylinder engines, though... every manufacturer is focusing on smaller engines now, implying the death knell for the V8. Americans seems to think that a V8 has to have at least 4 liters capacity... why not just decrease the engine volume? Sure, it's got more internal friction, but the sound and smoothness more than make up for that.

    It's an uncertain time for car enthusiasts.

    --
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    1. Re:Good luck! by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Using a 4500 lb. box to carry a 180 lb. person was always a stupid idea. Like you said, good riddance.

    2. Re:Good luck! by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because of the cube square ratio small cylinders lose too much heat into the engine block. You are better off reducing the number of cylinders.

    3. Re:Good luck! by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you do that every day...get a van.

      If you do it once a year...hire a van.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    4. Re:Good luck! by lkeagle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Excellent point!

      Now you and the other 0.1% of people that actually use their industrial vehicles for their intended purpose can feel free to keep buying them.

      In the meantime, freedom isn't free, and if grandma wants an H2 to go grocery shopping, it should cost her proportionally more to do so.

      Welcome to 'modern' capitalism.

      I for one have no problems with the federal or state governments regulating our markets to educate the populace of the true costs of consumption. People, as a whole, are irrational idiots, and need to be hit upside with a financial brick every once in a while.

    5. Re:Good luck! by ari_j · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Those who don't study history...

      I know of no time in American history when a new or increased tax has been used to reduce our national deficit. There are two basic fiscal camps active in American politics. One camp is the "tax and spend" group. The other just spends.

  12. 2016? by Jethro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My car gets 42mpg average right now. That's the EPA estimate and is actually what I seem to be getting in the real world.

    Honda Civic Hybrid. I love it. But frankly I'd like them to be WELL up into 100 seven years from now.

    --


    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
  13. Re:States rights by XanC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because the states created the federal government to handle particular tasks.

    The goal of our federalist system is not efficiency, it is freedom. A country where the government's primary goal is to ensure the efficiency of its subjects is certainly NOT one where I'd like to live.

  14. why not just tax gas? by panthroman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we want people to use less gas, why not just raise the darn price?

    There are times and places for government regulation, but requiring a minimum fuel efficiency? If the goal is to reduce greenhouse gases, then fuel efficiency is just a half-assed proxy for fuel consumption.

    42 mpg x 20 mile commute each day is a lot more fuel consumptive than 20 mpg x occasional grocery trip.

    And what qualifies as a "car" and what as a "light truck" and "SUV," all of which have their separate regulations? What a mess.

    People respond to their pocketbooks. In this case, it's easy to align people's incentives with the goals we want to achieve: Make gas expensive.

    1. Re:why not just tax gas? by Atriqus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, fuck everyone who can't afford to live closer to where they work. That'll show 'em!

      --
      Hey, look! It's Bono's brother.
    2. Re:why not just tax gas? by QuasiEvil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If we want people to use less gas, why not just raise the darn price?

      Or possibly because some of us think punitive taxes are an inappropriate use of government power, and only serve to distort the market?

      Despite being a hardcore fiscal conservative, I have no problem with taxing something that has a real, direct, tangible, accountable cost to cover. What I do have a problem with is setting up taxes to cover the "environmental damage" of doing things, such as releasing a ton of CO2. Exactly what is that cost? Is Mother Nature going to send me a bill at the end of the month? Not only that, but is the government going to use those tax revenues to somehow pay that cost so that there's no net impact of me polluting? It's all a sham pyramid scheme.

      I'm actually all for raising the gas tax to actually cover the cost needed to keep the highway system in excellent repair. Our infrastructure is going to hell and our politicians don't have the balls to do what needs to be done. The problem is that politicians as a group are a lying, sleazy bag of weasels, and the minute they see tax dollars coming in for roads, they'll try to either call everything a road or start cleverly siphoning off part of the cash.

    3. Re:why not just tax gas? by drago177 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, what made last summer's gas prices so painful was that they were sudden. Make the gas tax very small, incremental, and steady over many years, and at least people (& companies) will know what to expect. Maybe even have a summer gas tax holiday if it gets bad again, or other methods of evening out prices.

    4. Re:why not just tax gas? by selven · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with this. We have gotten quite good at measuring the short-term impact of pollution (google "external cost"), so it would be quite reasonable to charge people for the environmental damage caused by their cars and let people pollute to their hearts' content... if they're willing to suffer all the evironmental and health damage caused by themselves.

      Hopefully this will open up an incentive for governments and businesses alike to actually set up a half-decent public transportation system.

    5. Re:why not just tax gas? by goldspider · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you'd prefer we have more people languishing in poverty because we made gasoline so expensive they cannot afford to drive to work. How humanitarian of you.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
  15. Gas tax by Charles+Dodgeson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Milage standards haven't worked before and they will continue to fail. Forcing car companies to make vehicles that people don't want to buy isn't going to do anybody any good.

    Pretty much every economist knows that the way to achieve the stated goals is to dramatically increase gasoline taxes. After that, the market will work its magic. People will buy more efficient cars, or seek alternative transportation. When looking at where to live, the cost of commuting will play a bigger role in families' decisions. And we get to make a little dent in the whopping federal deficit.

    Of course no politician will even hint at endorsing what is clearly the economically rational thing to do. So instead, we'll spend money on subsidizing bio-fuels and other not-all-that-bright ideas.

    --
    Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
    1. Re:Gas tax by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Funny

      That God-damned representative government! People doing what they want, instead of what's best for them! I tell you, if I was in charge, we wouldn't have any of this inefficient "voting" or "town hall meetings" or any of that crap. I'd just say what was right, and anyone who didn't agree would be beaten. Let's increase taxes and ensure that no poor people can ever drive again! They don't deserve it, the cretins.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:Gas tax by DerekLyons · · Score: 5, Informative

      Pretty much every economist knows that the way to achieve the stated goals is to dramatically increase gasoline taxes. After that, the market will work its magic. People will buy more efficient cars, or seek alternative transportation.

      Yeah, and all those people who can't afford to buy new cars or who don't have access to alternate transportation will just have to suck it up and choose between gas and food or rent/mortgage payments.
       
       

      When looking at where to live, the cost of commuting will play a bigger role in families' decisions.

      Yeah, and all those people who can't afford to move will just have to suck it up and choose between gas and food or rent/mortgage payments. And who'll buy all those properties now too expensive for people live in? (And after selling your house at a loss, if you can sell, you'll be in a wonderful position to compete for houses closer in - houses whose prices are now rising because of demand.)
       
      It sucks to be a real person instead of a mathematical abstraction I guess.
       
       

      Of course no politician will even hint at endorsing what is clearly the economically rational thing to do.

      I find it much more likely that politicians and their advisers are much smarter than you are and understand that real world economics aren't abstractions and that what seems 'rational' in the extremely oversimplified and over abstracted world you live in is in fact a recipe for significant economic disruption in the real world.

    3. Re:Gas tax by Charles+Dodgeson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That God-damned representative government! People doing what they want, instead of what's best for them! I tell you, if I was in charge, we wouldn't have any of this inefficient "voting" or "town hall meetings" or any of that crap.

      I'm not proposing an alternative to democracy. There really isn't anything better. I'm merely pointing out that there are cases (and this is one of them) where democracies fail. Another failing that we are seeing is that representative democracies prefer public debt above either increased taxes or cuts in subsidies.

      The fact that substantially higher gas taxes isn't a politicly viable solution in American democracy doesn't take away from my claim that it is the most economically rational one.

      And just because something is economically rational, doesn't mean that the restructuring it entails wouldn't be extremely painful. People in distant suburbs would be doubly hurt. Their commuting costs would go up painfully and their house prices would drop exactly because commutes from those locations are expensive. I don't see a fix for that which wouldn't undermine the point of such a gas tax.

      But once we are fully out of the recession, gas prices will rise on their own, and they will stay high next time. Still, I would prefer for some of the money to be going into the US treasury than into the hands of the big oil producing countries.

      --
      Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
    4. Re:Gas tax by QuasiEvil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm merely pointing out that there are cases (and this is one of them) where democracies fail.

      Depends on what you mean by fail. In one sense, sure, it didn't go for the academically optimal solution for the assumed problem (burn less oil, presumably with an ideal solution of smaller, hyper-efficient cars driven less, possibly powered by non oil-based fuel).

      I'd argue that this was a shining example of democracy working. The populous did not want this solution, therefore it did not come about. What they got has other problems, but it's what the majority of people wanted. I'd much rather have that than an autocratic government forcing their idea of optimal solutions on me.

       

  16. Hopefully, it is modified by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Instead of seeing it jump directly to it, I would rather that the fleet be required to increase to that on a straight line yearly. IOW, it is better to require that the fleet average increases ~2mpg each year. If we wait until 2016 to increase it, then the incoming admin will destroy it as being bad for the economy. In addition, over the next 8 years, America will buy the OLD standard cars and they will remain for 10-20 years.

    Hopefully, the dems will grow a pair and do what is right.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  17. Re:States rights by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Oh yeah, ask southern blacks all about the wondrous freedoms of states' rights.

  18. About damned time. by rnturn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It'd be interesting to see what the average and top mileage cars have been getting over the past 20-30 years or so. Up until 1990, I had a car with a small displacement 6-cylinder (instead of a 4-cyl, cuz I wanted air conditioning), manual 5-speed transmission, and cruise control that routinely got me above 40 mpg on the highway. If the weather cooperated and I wasn't driving into a headwind the entire way, more often than not I was able to make a trip from S. Ohio home to Chicago on a single tank of gas. Then, for some reason, it was almost impossible to find a car that got better than the low 30s. Once SUVs became popular, availability of high mileage cars dropped even further. If one were to plot mileage over the years, I'd bet that we'll finally be getting back to what should have been commonplace in the mid/late '90s. Fifteen years or more of progress totally wasted. Pity. And the managers of American auto makers wonder why their companies are in the toilet.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  19. Re:Wish in one hand, crap in the other... by Cimexus · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Smaller, lighter cars are fine in a crash with other smaller, lighter cars. But in the US the average vehicle is so heavy that the minority of people in the small cars would get squished like a pancake. Plus US drivers seem to spend proportionately more time going at higher (highway) speeds (commutes in most other countries generally involve less highway).

    In Europe and Japan and other places where smaller cars are the norm, I don't think they are perceived as unsafe at all. Particularly when they are generally used for city driving at speeds = 60 km/h anyway, you simply aren't likely to have any massively high energy impacts. As the parent said, they are also a lot more agile on the road and stop a lot quicker so can avoid accidents in more cases.

    A lot of families I know have two cars. A city car (e.g. a Mazda 121 or other ultra-small vehicle), and a normal sedan. The city car gets used every day. The larger car is used for the weekend roadtrip (since it's undeniable that large vehicles are nicer for long trips, and larger engines are better for highway cruising ... and not that bad efficiency-wise if you put the cruise control on 110 km/h and leave it there).

  20. Re:Illegal Hummers coming? by RoboRay · · Score: 3, Funny

    Are you nuts? That would require a 100 gallon gas tank!

  21. reduce the weight! by ProfBooty · · Score: 2, Informative

    On the otherhand a early 1980's civic got 41mpg city and mid 50's highway, but it weighed roughly 1000lbs less.

    I am curious how the fuel economy would be if we put a modern powertrain into an older much lighter body.

    --
    Bring back the old version of slashdot.
  22. Re:Amusing story by pmarini · · Score: 5, Informative

    Allow me to translate that:
    US gallon = 3.78 liters
    UK gallon = 4.54 litres
    Therefore it would be 50 mpg in UK... good luck with that!

    --
    Can I put a spell on those who can't spell?
    Your wheels are loose and they're losing their grip, good you're there.
  23. 2016? Why not 2010? by incognito84 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not an expert, but haven't cars that get better than 42MPG been on the road for years? I'd like to see a law prohibiting the use of gasoline powered cars by 2016. The industry will adjust.

    1. Re:2016? Why not 2010? by QuasiEvil · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd like to see a law prohibiting the use of gasoline powered cars by 2016.

      Oh brilliant. Throw away an entire working infrastructure with a fuel that makes a great deal of sense. That's not to mention the chaos you'd cause with the economy (a hundred million people or more being forced to buy a new car or stop driving, combined with the retooling of the fueling infrastructure and turning the petrochemical refining industry on its head)

      It takes time to meet the engineering and regulatory hurdles needed to bring a new model to market. What you buy today has probably been in development for at least 3-5 years, based on what I know from my friends in auto industry. Plus, they all borrow parts that have been in development or production much longer. There's no way you can slap some miracle car together by 2010, let alone an entire line of them meeting everyone's differing needs while still having the high reliability, safety, and now fuel economy required.

      Plus, as a classic car nut, I'd personally devote my life to getting any asshat politician who proposed such a thing thrown out of office and replaced with someone smarter. The government should keep its grubby mitts off my cars and my guns.

  24. Re:Wish in one hand, crap in the other... by slashqwerty · · Score: 4, Informative

    To require this will result in extremely UNSAFE cars that no one wants to buy.

    The 2006 Honda Civic almost reaches this level. It has the top rating in every IIHS crash test. The manufacturer is routinely rated at or near the top of the industry in reliability. The Civic's price is comparable to a typical American car. The 2009 Civic Hybrid already tops these standards under recently tightened milage measurements. There is no reason a 42mpg car has to be unsafe, unreliable, or overly expensive.

  25. Re:States rights by anagama · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There should be a Godwin corollary for comments like yours.

    As for the substance of your comment, just because some states did bad stuff means we should scrap the principles on which America was founded? Where are we going to be when the Feds control everything and do bad stuff? With 50 different styles, at least some are going to be better, but with a homogeneous government, the chance that it is bad everywhere is much greater. Oh wait ... seems we already have such a monstrosity.

    --
    What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
  26. Re:Wish in one hand, crap in the other... by goofballs · · Score: 3, Funny

    I drive a small car... I hear the whole 'squished like a pancake' thing all the time, but despite hearing it and seeing lots of even major car accidents on the Los Angeles freeways, I see a lot of people take hits in small cars and not only survive, but their cars are still working well enough to drive them away from the scene.

    maybe that's because the average commute speeds in LA are so low (5-11 mph average in the sepulveda pass). :P

  27. Don't bother by beej · · Score: 3, Informative

    There's a case to be made that raising the CAFE won't save oil or reduce greenhouse gases.

    So true. If my car got 8 million miles per gallon, I'd totally drive 8 million times as much.

  28. Until we have a Republican president... by cyn1c77 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obama better get himself reelected then. Because, you can bet if he loses to the Republicans the deadline for compliance to the 42 mpg average will be pushed back to the year 2167 lickity split.

    And I don't mean that to sound partisan, because I hate both major political parties. But in my opinion, history has shown that the Republicans are definitely in bed with the oil companies. The Democrats might be too, but they keep it on the DL.

  29. End Comment is wrong. by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 2, Interesting
    At the end of the post, it is written:

    There's a case to be made that raising the CAFE won't save oil or reduce greenhouse gases.

    Which references the following passage:

    Why? Because improvements in fuel economy effectively make fuel less expensive, and when costs fall, demand tends to rise. As driving has grown cheaper in recent decades, people have done more of it - choosing to drive to work instead of taking the bus, for example, or buying a second car, or moving to a house with a longer commute, or sending the kids to college with cars of their own. Between 1983 and 2001, data from the Energy Information Administration show, the annual amount of driving by the average American household rose from 16,800 vehicle-miles to more than 23,000.

    This is known as a variant of Jevon's Paradox.

    Jevons is ONLY correct if the supply of energy resource is A: available and B: steady or increasing in availability. This is true because with steady or increasing availability, price remains stable or decreases. However, if the availability is not steady and/or decreasing, then conservation is the only possible route for economic growth, as one must reduce one's consumption *below* the depletion curve in order for "extra" resource to be put into expanded production.

    This also eventually fails. Energetic resources (oil, coal, gas, uranium, the gallium in solar cells, etc.) eventually give out, and are never uniformly distributed. What happens is you run up against asymmetries and granularities. The asymmetries result in cartels, and testing the granularities results in Very Bad Things like revolutions.

    So, basically, the article is essentially correct, if we were living in the 1990s. But we are not. We are either at or very near peak oil production, and from here (or the very near future) it is a constant down slope in energy availability. Unfortunately Solar/Wind/Nuclear etc. is not ramping up fast enough and is ill suited to many basic applications and materials (such as carbon fibre, plastics, and fertiliser) and it seems very likely that we will get "caught out" in the mid 20teens, making the 2020s a rather dire time.

    According to the ,a href="http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf">Hirsh Report it takes 20 years of expensive conversion efforts to shift society to a new energy paradigm. 10 years is a bare minimum and likely to be difficult. We're still talking about trying to save the Happy Motoring Culture, which is another way of saying, we're caught with our pants down.

    Make plans or have them made for you.

    And remember, Mother Nature's plans do not include your survival, much less comfort.

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  30. twnety year old civic gets 57mpg by cowlum1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/17/autos/honda_civic_hf/index.htm

    I understand that safety is now a major concern and safety drags down mileage. But the numbers are not far fetched.

    from the article

    "The CRX HF got an Environmental Protection Agency-estimated 57 mpg gallon in highway driving. Today, the most fuel-efficient non-hybrid Civic you can buy gets an EPA-estimated 34 mpg on the highway. Even today's Honda Civic Hybrid can't match it, achieving EPA-estimated highway mileage of just 45 mpg. The Toyota Prius, today's fuel mileage champ, gets 46 mpg on the highway."

    --


    some peoples moderation does not include weed
    1. Re:twnety year old civic gets 57mpg by ShadowRangerRIT · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not just safety. 20 year old Civics aren't even comparable with the modern Civic on size. The old Civics basically ran on go-kart engines and had half the cabin size (yes, hyperbole. The actual engine was 58 HP). This particular model was only a two seater, and small one at that. And as your own link notes, the old 57 MPG was under the old ratings system. Under the new system (which you are using for the new model cars) it would only get 51 MPG. And of course, AC was optional and the top MPG would only be obtained without it.

      --
      $_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
    2. Re:twnety year old civic gets 57mpg by teh+kurisu · · Score: 4, Informative

      IIRC they compared driving with the AC on to driving with the windows open.

      Driving at in-town speeds, the AC affected MPG to a greater degree than having the windows open, but at out-of-town speeds the AC was more efficient. This makes sense to me, as the energy required by the AC is constant, whereas the additional drag due to the open windows would increase with speed.

    3. Re:twnety year old civic gets 57mpg by radtea · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IIRC they compared driving with the AC on to driving with the windows open.

      A few years ago I was doing a 700 km commute every couple of weeks. I have a ten year old Chrysler mini-van (3 litre) which gets 10 litres/100 km (dunno what that is in mpg, US or imperial.) As a test I tried windows open vs AC on different trips, and found my fuel efficiency at highway speeds was undetectably different.

      This is the same result Mythbusters got, and while neither test is exactly high science, my real-world experience tends to back up their on-track testing.

      There is a third alternative that no one has tried lately: some more efficient way of circulating air in the passenger cabin other than having the windows open. I imagine an air intake just below the windshield that was used to ventilate the cabin would have the potential to keep the passengers cool without the aerodynamic losses open windows produce.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  31. Re:Cool. Diesels at last. by rally2xs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Diesels? Dream on. You've got a cartel of 5 envirowacko states with pollution standards in excess of Europe's, which are essentially keeping most diesels out of the country now. The unreasonably-stringent anti-sulphur emissions standards are only capable of being met with some advanced anti-pollution equipment involving a reservoir of urea to process the exhaust to meet the emission standards of these 5 states. Most manufacturers deem this too great a burden to bring their (62 mpg) cars into the USA, so only VW and Merceedes do so, and forgo sales in those 5 states. 42 mpg average by 2016? Guffaw! It isn't going to happen. Between the safety Nazis making cars weigh more, and more, and more so they can crash at Star Trek's Warp 9 and have everybody walk away without a scratch, and the envirowackos trying to get the exhaust to be cleaner than the air that is ingested by the engine, we're soon going to have _no_ cars bigger than a breadbox that can be purchased in this country.

  32. Re:Don't be stupid by greetings+programs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am not taking about small crossover suvs, but the real ones, the ones with a truck underneath, say a Tahoe, Escalade or Durango. One of these can crush my normal sized car in a pinch. They make the road unsafe for me and others, and most of them don't have a real reason to exist save for the big egos of their drivers. They also consume stupid amounts of gas needlessly. Most of the people driving these behemots do it because the perceived 'safety' the give to them. Too bad the things are too prone to rollovers. Also, I am not supporting anybody's agenda, least of all the liberal agenda. I just expressed my opinion that driving cars so big is a stupid waste of resources and unsafe to everyone.

    --
    Greetings, programs!
  33. Re:Plastic Cars? by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...those crumple zones worked to save him...

    That, my friend, is the whole point... It may cost a lot of money to fix or replace a car that has been so crushed, but ultimately cars are expendable, people are not.

  34. Re:Wish in one hand, crap in the other... by MartinSchou · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I realise that people in the US are a bit strange, but on what highways are you liable to encounter a car going the other way in your lane of traffic?

    That only leaves you getting rear ended, and from what I've heard about US highways, that'll involve a 6 mph fender bender.

    As for what happens to your car - if you are involved in a high energy crash, you're much better off if your car is the one that absorbs as much of the energy as possible. Personally I'd rather be able to walk away from a car that can't drive away, than be driven away in a car that I can't walk away from.

    Besides - if you are THAT keen on being in the biggest vehicle in a crash, may I introduce you to Mr. Big Rig? Plenty of space for the kids in the cab. No worries about hooking up a trailer if you need it. Best view over traffic you can possibly get. And you can probably crash into an H1 Hummer and tell your friends "I crashed into one of those tiny suburban soccer mom trolleys ... I'm still picking bits out of my grill."

  35. Revenue-neutral tax shift by Ichijo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You make a good case for making the gas tax revenue-neutral. If the average person uses 400 gallons of gas per year and the tax is $1.00 per gallon, then with a revenue-neutral gas tax, the government would mail everyone a $100 check every 3 months. If you're poor, that $100 could go a long way paying for groceries.

    --
    Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
  36. The Law of Unintended Consequences by the+Dragonweaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This sounds like a great idea, but I fear it. You know why? Because something always happens that nobody properly predicts.

    Here's an example. Remember station wagons? Not the things they have now, but those great big monstrosities that used to carry something like eight people or a garage band + equipment. You don't see those around any more. Why? Because they raised the fuel standards and there was no way that station wagons could reach that. Bye bye, big loader.

    But just because they disappeared, it does not mean the need for large cars disappeared. Enter the minivan-- which has lighter standards, but still stringent. And most earlier examples of minivans were crap for anything but moving people. (Current models sometimes switch pretty well, but may not have engine capacity.) So then what? Enter the SUV. It falls under the "truck" standards, so it doesn't need to meet as stringent requirements. It seats more than four people, which is important for some people, and it can do things like move furniture. It also doesn't drive like a beached whale.

    A lot of the posters at Slashdot don't seem to have considered the family angle. Carseats are freaking HUGE and it's sometimes hard to fit them in a sedan. And of course, you can't do more than two since the front seat is off-limits. So no friends. (Remember field trips where the parents used to drive? Yeah, they can't do that any more either. But that's another rant.) Once again, minivan or SUV. And quite honestly, after being in a hit-and-run accident, I wanted five-star safety rating AND a slightly higher profile. So our vehicle is what's called a crossover-- six seats, so when we have a couple of kids we'll still be able to put some adults in. And incidentally, it gets 24-26 miles to the gallon IN city.

    The upshot is that yeah, this sounds great. I'm all for better mileage and I shop for it. BUT there's something else that's going to happen that we haven't predicted. It could be safety issues; it could be price. I don't know. But I'm always afraid of well-intentioned things like this coming back to bite us in the butt.

    --
    Actually I am a lab rat in an elaborate plot to take over the world.
    1. Re:The Law of Unintended Consequences by fprintf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We have a station wagon, a Volvo XC70 Cross Country, and we love it. Yes, it doesn't have bench seats so you can't put a third person in the front, but it does have a foldup seat in the trunk area. I won't say it entirely replaces the capacity concerns for fitting 6+ people, but it solves a lot of the issues of needing to haul stuff. Plus the kids absolutely love riding in the trunk facing backwards on the once or twice per year occasions when we need to move 7 people in one vehicle.

      To be honest, though, the backwards facing seat scares me from a safety point of view, and so I have been thinking it would be easier to rent a van on those occasions. Given that, when it is time to replace the vehicle in a few years I will downgrade to a smaller car for the 99% of trips when it is just the four of us and take that rental otherwise - the money I save in fuel will more than offset the rental cost.

      --
      This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
    2. Re:The Law of Unintended Consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Station Wagons didn't disappear. They became minivans and SUVs. It was an attempt to bring new life into a vehicle format that was the butt of a lot of jokes. I'd say it worked pretty well too, just look around you.

    3. Re:The Law of Unintended Consequences by Chirs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The limiting factor is not the size of the child, but the width of the carseat and the availability of anchor points.

      Most compact to midsize sedans only have room (and anchor points) for two carseats, even though there may be three seatbelts.

      There *are* midsize sedans with three sets of anchor points...you have to shop around a bit though.

  37. Re:First post!!!!! by compro01 · · Score: 4, Informative

    For the first, depends on which emissions. For CO2, it beats gasoline hands down, but it loses in terms of NOx emissions.

    As for the latter, that's not completely relevant. Gasoline and diesel come from the same barrel of oil. The main part of the refining process is separating the mix of hydrocarbons that make up crude.

    Though to answer the question, 1 barrel (42 US gallons) of oil yields about 19 gallons of gasoline, 10 gallons of diesel, and another 13 gallons of other stuff, such as fuel oil, petroleum feedstocks (for plastic and chemical production), propane, coke (the fuel, not the drink), asphalt, lube oil, and other things.

    --
    upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  38. Re:Paging James Madison... by copponex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sure, buddy. Just provide a single quote, footnote, or anything supporting your claim that the founding fathers would be against this particular regulation. Seems rather ridiculous, doesn't it?

    There's no direct constitutional support for the CIA, NSA, Air Force, CDC, FDA, FEMA... the list is pretty long. The founding fathers could not conceive of of much of our modern world. So, did they in particular have a propensity to deny states certain rights that threatened the prosperity and security of the nation? I would say yes.

    Does dependence on a finite fuel which has been bankrupting our country for decades count as a danger? Is the freedom to produce an inefficient car that important in comparison? Again, I would say that the "freedom" to have a Hummer matters far less than the freedom to be free of entangling alliances and dependence on foreign nations for basic transportation.

    But you can stick to your petty little remarks, if you like. Or say something meaningful, if you disagree. It's up to you.

  39. Re:Amusing story by The+Wooden+Badger · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yup, the Brits dropped that useless system a long time ago. They just film two versions of Top Gear, one for the domestic market using the kilometers and liters and another for BBC America with miles and gallons. Makes sense to me.

    And while we are at it, when did stone become an SI unit?

    --
    Heroscape, it's like legos combined with anachronistic wargames.
  40. Re:Plastic Cars? by AdamInParadise · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Actually, the crumple zones saved both of them: they dissipated the kinetic energy of the whole impact. This guy was able to walk away from the accident BECAUSE the other guy was driving a car with crumple zones. This is also the reason why the car was demolished instead of simply taking a hit.

    If the other guy had been driving a steel car too, he wouldn't be posting on /. today.

    --
    Nobox: Only simple products.
  41. Re:Amusing story by node+3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Allow me to translate that:

    US gallon = 3.78 liters

    UK gallon = 4.54 litres

    Therefore it would be 50 mpg in UK... good luck with that!

    It would seem they don't need luck.

  42. "every _________ knows" ~Al Gore by thtrgremlin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Every economist? You can take your social metaphysics and control by fear and shove it wherever you like, but lets just be clear you are talking about ideal high school Keynesian Economics and not real world, grown up Austrian Economics. I am glad you had the capacity to drool over colorful supply and demand graphs, but if you have any additional brain power, try a real book like "The Theory of Money and Credit" or "Keynes the Man" which is contemporary to "The General Theory". And as much as I might like to simply agree with Mesis and Rothbard, I think if Keynes were alive today he would say we were taking all this WAY to far. Keynes advocated for community level collaborative interventionalism, not the head of the Federal government appointing himself CEO and engineer of the next generation of high speed coffins that fart strawberries. Holy Shit!

    Strong language is for effect. So long as everyone with the slightest critique is getting modded to hell, I might as well go down all the way.

    Oh yeah, and fuck using taxes as moral regulatory tool. What, you run out of Bibles to choke people to death with?

    --
    Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    1. Re:"every _________ knows" ~Al Gore by Charles+Dodgeson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Every economist? You can take your social metaphysics and control by fear and shove it wherever you like, but lets just be clear you are talking about ideal high school Keynesian Economics and not real world, grown up Austrian Economics.

      Please tell me how what I propose is in any way Keynesian?Seriously, there is nothing Keynesian about this proposal

      Gasoline usage has substantial externalities, roads, noise, pollution, congestion and diplomatic (including wars to in regions we would otherwise ignore). Internalizing those externalities places this proposal well within a neo-liberal framework.

      Or are you just one of those people who shout "socialist" every time you hear the word "taxes"? These sorts of people hide behind economic rationality when it suits them (for lower taxes) and ignore economic rationality when it doesn't suit them (higher taxes).

      And I still dare you to explain how this proposal is Keynesian. Or do you not know what Keynesianism really was?

      --
      Prime numbers are exactly what Alan Greenspan says they are -S. Minsky
  43. Re:Amusing story by Tazor · · Score: 2, Informative

    42 miles per gallon = 17.8560357 kilometers per liter. According to Google. Sounds very doable. Your average Jap city car these days, already gets that, and more.

    My 20 year old VW Golf Diesel goes 22 km/liter (and the motor is pretty worn out), so i really think that new cars should be able to top that. The Mini Cooper Diesel goes 25.6 km/liter in EU mix (thats both urban driving and freeway driving) and it is not slow either.

    --
    "I find your lack of faith disturbing"
  44. Re:Plastic Cars? by BlueParrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The other guys car was DEMOLISHED because his car was fiberglass and plastic. Yeah, those crumple zones worked to save him.. but they also meant that his car sustained severe very clostly damage.

    You sir are a moron. Those crumble zones saved not only his life but yours as well. A frontal collision at that speed can easily be lethal. The reason you are alive to make your post is that the other car had crumble zones that absorb some of the energy in the impact thereby making it softer for both of you. You should probably have offered him half the cost of a new car because by sacrificing his vehicle both of you coudl walk away from the accident.

    If you doubt my word try the following. Drop one egg onto a pillow and put another egg into a metal strongbox that you drop on the floor. I give you one guess which egg is more likely to crack.

  45. Re:Amusing story by Timmmm · · Score: 2, Informative

    But those are all diesel cars. They always get better mileage than petrol cars.

    Still if you look at this page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_May_2008_UK_fuel_economy_ratings

    There are several petrol cars that get over 50 mpg.

  46. Re:Amusing story by 3247 · · Score: 2, Informative

    It would make more sense to translate that into sane, metric units:

    1/27.5 mpg = 8.6 L/100 km
    1/42 mpg = 5.6 L/100 km

    However, to compare it with EU goals you'll also need to calculate the CO2 emissions:

    8.6 L/100 km: 206 g/km (petrol)
    5.6 L/100 km: 134 g/km (petrol)

    8.6 L/100 km: 232 g/km (diesel)
    5.6 L/100 km: 151 g/km (diesel)

    --
    Claus
  47. Re:Amusing story by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

    0,056 liters per 100 km, doable.

    On a moped, if you pedal and it's downhill. With a following wind.

    Typical subcompacts are around 8l/100km.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  48. Don't attribute what you see in your area by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Insightful

    as an indication of what is anywhere else.

    For every mini/smart I can show you a dozen of practically any other car, if not more. Hell in many areas I can show you more than a dozen times that in SUVs about anyhwere.

    The people who want fuel efficient cars are buying them (fwiw I own a miata (30 avg which I track on fueleconomy.gov) and a R1200RT (49 avg). People vilify SUVs but go look at any luxury car lineup and tell me what you see. I don't see how companies like Infiniti or Lexus can meet the goals unless they roll up under their parents mileage figures. Granted Lexus will have a hybrid sedan soon even it will barely average 34.

    Now what would be impressive if Obama and Corp can get small diesels all around. California has been the problem there so are they going to prevent us from getting the high mileage diesels Europe has or did Obama and Corp make a deal with California?

    Ford is going to have an issue because their "Eco Boost" is a joke. Instead of truly down sizing the engines offered with this direct injection turbo setup they are offering even higher horsepower and torque. In other words, they have an opportunity to make nice small engines for their midsize cars but chose to just pump up a six while claiming it still beats the other guys eights.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  49. "slushboxes" are generally better than manuals now by Shivetya · · Score: 4, Insightful

    because the majority cannot get more efficiency from a manual than what a computer controlled automatic can. I don't know why your bellyaching about something that already has happened. It takes some stupid hyper miler tricks to get many manuals past the best of the automatics. Really, what century are you in? The trick for the last decade in improving highway mileage has been very tall gearing in the last one or two gears of the transmission. The key is that new autos will downshift to pass and resume the tall gear as soon as possible. Throw in cylinder deactivation and you can improve many big vehicles.

    Safety regulations, well your out of the loop again. The Feds are implementing even stiffer roll over requirements so that roofs will not collapse if someone has a roll over. Just how are you going to relax safety standards in a nanny state? Comparing car safety to motorcycles is like comparing apples to dogs.

    We bring cars made in Mexico here everyday, they are sold under the GM and Chrysler name. Now have you seen crash test of home grown cars from Mexico or China? If your asking us why we don't allow them go ask Europe why they rejected them!

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  50. Re:42mpg - that is rubbish fuel consumption by mutu310 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Only problem is that the US gallon is about 83% of the Imperial gallon. 42 US mpg is equivalent to 50.4 mpg in the UK.

  51. Re:First post!!!!! by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Informative

    The numbers you quote are for current distillation settings that mirror current demand fractions. The refineries can produce more diesel and less gasoline, for instance, if there were demand for it. They have processes to make heavy hydrocarbons into lighter ones, and vice versa.

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  52. Re:Amusing story by flitty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My 91 Honda Civic gets 45 consistantly, and up to 50 mpg. I always laugh when the new car commercials claim "Amazing 32 mpg!" for a economy sedan.

    --
    Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
  53. Re:Amusing story by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Funny
    "On a moped, if you pedal and it's downhill. With a following wind."

    Yeah, but you know what they say about mopeds.

    Mopeds are like fat chicks, sure, they're both fun to 'ride', but, you don't want your friends to see you on either one of them.

    :)

    Thank you, I'll be here all week.....try the veal.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  54. Let the market figure out the details. by maillemaker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the market can figure out the details, why have the government artificially raise the price of fuel?

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
    1. Re:Let the market figure out the details. by Daetrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the market can figure out the details, why have the government artificially raise the price of fuel?

      Because the market doesn't care about externalities. There are multiple externalities involved with using gasoline, even if you choose not to believe in global climate change, and the auto industry isn't going to care about any of them until it is far too late. By attaching a price to the commodity in the form of taxes it forces the market to respond to the total cost including the externalities (assuming we come up with a reasonably close approximation for the tax,) not just the immediate cost.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  55. Re:Amusing story by jo_ham · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Polo is not a supermini.

    It's a "compact" or whatever your marketing term is, but it's no smaller than a Prius or the actual revamped Mini.

  56. Weighing the evidence by Kaseijin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The principles on which America was founded were the ability to run a slave farm without having to pay taxes to Britain, and only allowing rich white men to vote.

    Slavery was a source of contention between Northern and Southern states from the beginning. Every state north of Delaware abolished it by 1804. It remained legal in Britain until 1840.

    Taxes in the colonies were relatively low.

    Neither country guaranteed all women the right to vote until the 1920s. A large minority of British men were disenfranchised by property requirements until after World War I, and a significant number of landowners could vote in multiple districts until 1948.

  57. Re:Amusing story by OrangeTide · · Score: 2, Funny

    You won't really get that, due to air resistance from your tinfoil hat.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire