Dungeons & Dragons Online Goes Free-To-Play

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Dungeons & Dragons Online Goes Free-To-Play

Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday June 9, 2009 @11:06PM from the level-up-for-3d20-cents dept.

Dungeons & Dragons Online developer Turbine has announced that they'll be launching a new version of the game, called Eberron Unlimited, which makes it free to play, with the option of using micro-transactions to buy certain items and customize characters. Players will also be able to earn points through normal play that they can spend in the DDO Store. There's an additional option to pay a normal subscription fee for priority access to servers, a monthly allotment of points for the store, and extra character slots. Further details and a sign-up for the beta are available at the game's website.

178 comments

They let anyone on these days... by Blue23 · 2009-06-09 23:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

When people can play for free, there's little incentive not to be a griefer or otherwise annoying if that's what you like. Create a new anonymous account and spam Chuck Norris jokes, steal kills, etc.
Having just pay-for-play sets a threshold. You'll still have annoying players, but not as many. I'd want a "Play at +1, ignore Anonymous Cowards" option for the "VIP" (for-pay) accounts.

--
LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? C. MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.
1. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-09 23:28 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Having just pay-for-play sets a threshold. You'll still have annoying players, but not as many. I'd want a "Play at +1, ignore Anonymous Cowards" option for the "VIP" (for-pay) accounts.
  I'm a dick to people in WoW only because it's the last fun thing to do. Raiding? PVP? I'd rather just grief. Even with pay-to-play, you spend your $15 a month to play how you want, I spend mine to camp people, troll the realm forums, and do old content with friends.
  I, of course, do not ninja loot like some people or interfere with a guilds progression. That's where I draw the line.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
2. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-09 23:39 · Score: 0
  
  There's also no reason for the admins not to ban your ass for griefing. In WOW, Blizzard could really care less if people are griefing as long as they pay that $15 (or more, for multi accounts) every month.
3. Re:They let anyone on these days... by PolarBearFire · 2009-06-10 00:00 · Score: 1
  
  What are you talking about? I've been playing Runes of Magic, which seems to me the same free-to-play but pay-for-extras model, for a month and none of the things you say happens, happens. All of my interactions with other players have been civil and mature. I've never played WoW so griefing may be common there but since it doesn't happen in Runes of Magic, a free game, your theory goes out the window.
4. Re:They let anyone on these days... by TaoPhoenix · 2009-06-10 00:01 · Score: 1
  
  I think you're being honest, which means this isn't a troll *comment*. /Dot really needs a lateral 0-point Scary mod.
  
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  My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
5. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 00:02 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  I'm a dick to people in WoW only because it's the last fun thing to do. ... I'd rather just grief. ... camp people, troll the realm forums
  Your mom must be very proud.
6. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Blue23 · 2009-06-10 00:30 · Score: 1
  
  How big is Runes of Magic? Sure, it's completely possible to have a civil player-base, but it's easier (and more likely) when it's a small devoted base as opposed to a large sprawling population of players.
  
  --
  LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? C. MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.
7. Re:They let anyone on these days... by hedwards · 2009-06-10 00:38 · Score: 1
  
  Who do you think posts all those goatse links?
8. Re:They let anyone on these days... by poetmatt · 2009-06-10 00:47 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Why? There's absolutely nothing wrong with what he does. Death in wow has zero penalties, and it's absolutely within the game mechanics to grief people like he does. Maybe you need a -1 reality check (aka overrated) mod?
  Eve allows tons of griefing, as does darkfall, as does any game with PVP, especially if you're on a PVP server. The victims that are bad players always cry out like no other, which feeds and entertains those who choose to grief. If you choose to carebear all day then do so, that's your $15.
9. Re:They let anyone on these days... by ShieldW0lf · 2009-06-10 01:03 · Score: 1
  
  Why? There's absolutely nothing wrong with what he does. Death in wow has zero penalties, and it's absolutely within the game mechanics to grief people like he does.
  
  Wedgies in high school had zero penalties. Why don't you pay me $15 a month and I'll come over and give you one for old times sake.
  
  --
  -1 Uncomfortable Truth
10. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 01:04 · Score: 1
  
  Who do you think posts all those goatse links?
  No, you see, that's how you get banned. The trick is to just troll and to slowly get close to the line of being suspended from the game or forums without crossing it.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
11. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 01:08 · Score: 1
  
  Wedgies in high school had zero penalties. Why don't you pay me $15 a month and I'll come over and give you one for old times sake.
  It actually did. The person doing it would get in trouble with the school. You're comparing apples to oranges, sir.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
12. Re:They let anyone on these days... by elrous0 · 2009-06-10 01:11 · Score: 1
  
  Ha, I met way more griefers on WoW than I ever did on Guild Wars. And if you ever want to visit griefer central, try out EVE sometime (also with a monthly charge).
  It all comes down to the maturity of the crowd, and immature teenagers and assholes don't have any problem affording $15 a month.
  
  --
  SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
13. Re:They let anyone on these days... by castironpigeon · 2009-06-10 01:27 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Death in wow has zero penalties...
  There's no penalty only if your time is worthless. Say you were on your way somewhere and then BAM you're a ghost 10 minutes from your corpse. Run back to your corpse and BAM you're a ghost for 10 more minutes. You get the idea.
  
  --
  mmmm...forbidden donut
14. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 01:32 · Score: 0
  
  You think being a dick is fun? Wow, good luck with life son.
15. Re:They let anyone on these days... by MBGMorden · 2009-06-10 01:34 · Score: 1
  
  If a another player can attack you in the wild then you have either engaged yourself in PvP recently, or willingly rolled on a PvP server. In either event it was a choice on gameplay style that you made. Personally, I LOATHE corpse runs like you mention because I have limited time and don't want to spend time in the ghost world due to griefers. And that's why I rolled on a *PvE* server and don't throw pot shots and flagged players. Problem solved.
  
  --
  "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
16. Re:They let anyone on these days... by castironpigeon · 2009-06-10 01:37 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  And if you ever want to visit griefer central, try out EVE sometime (also with a monthly charge).
  EVE is a game that revolves around griefing. Griefers camp strategic points in space. Anti-griefers hunt the griefers. Industrialists supply both sides with new ships and supplies. Occasionally there are large scale lagfests where groups of people destroy lots and lots of each other's ships to compete for griefing rights in a certain area of space.
  
  The reason why this is so successful is because, as a post a few up from here notes, what is there left to do? It's just not worthwhile for a company to write that much content for people paying only $15 a month. And in a virtual world like that of EVE, PvP tends to evolve into griefing instead of even matchups or other formal PvP.
  
  --
  mmmm...forbidden donut
17. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Apatharch · 2009-06-10 01:37 · Score: 1
  
  Say you were on your way somewhere and then BAM you're a ghost 10 minutes from your corpse. Run back to your corpse and BAM you're a ghost for 10 more minutes. You get the idea.
  All PVP in WoW is consensual. If this sort of thing bothers you, keep your flag turned off and don't roll a toon on a PVP server.
18. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Jim_Maryland · 2009-06-10 01:57 · Score: 1
  
  Personally, I LOATHE corpse runs like you mention
  
  If the one being camped (for more than a few kills), this is the time that you contact your fellow guild mates and reverse the camping situation.
  
  If the one camping, this is the time you think "have they called in reinforcements yet?" or "can I kill them one more time?"
  
  As you said further on in your comment, a PvE server offers a place to play where you don't have to participate in PvP activities. Blizzard offers an environment for different play styles. Now if I could only get some of my guild mates to stop whining about how is so over powered compared to .
19. Re:They let anyone on these days... by castironpigeon · 2009-06-10 02:02 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Not picking on your post specifically, but it's interesting that within 10 minutes of my original post I got two responses telling me that if I don't enjoy WoW PvP I shouldn't roll on a PvP server. What's interesting is that I wasn't expressing an opinion on PvP, I was just stating that there is a penalty to it.
  
  It's also an interesting response because it's the same knee-jerk defense of WoW PvP I've read in many other forums. If you don't like it, go away. If that's become such a quick response to anything that seems even remotely to be an attack on PvP, maybe that says something about how PvP is broken in WoW. Can you play on a PvP server without griefing or being griefed? What if all your friends are griefers and refuse to roll on anything but a PvP server? Is there any point to playing on a PvP server besides being able to one day grief others? Do people even distinguish between griefing and PvP anymore or is it basically, "You're on a PvP server. Expect PvP all day, every day. Oh and by the way PvP means that as you're out questing you'll encounter random groups of PvP equipped max level players who will kill you and camp your corpse."
  
  And no, I don't play WoW so I don't need advice on what server to roll on. I'm just a bit disappointed in what PvP has come to be defined as. I tell my WoW playing friends that when I want to PvP I'll load up DoD:S or TF2. That's consensual PvP.
  
  --
  mmmm...forbidden donut
20. Re:They let anyone on these days... by harryandthehenderson · 2009-06-10 02:15 · Score: 1
  
  "You're on a PvP server. Expect PvP all day, every day. Oh and by the way PvP means that as you're out questing you'll encounter random groups of PvP equipped max level players who will kill you and camp your corpse."
  Yes that is exactly how it is. If you didn't want to play where you were always in constant danger of being killed you shouldn't play on the server that is set up with exactly those dynamics.
21. Re:They let anyone on these days... by MrMista_B · 2009-06-10 02:18 · Score: 1, Flamebait
  
  I dunno, as an admitted griefer, you're still someone I'd hope that Blizzard bans from the game entirely.
22. Re:They let anyone on these days... by harryandthehenderson · 2009-06-10 02:18 · Score: 1
  
  or other formal PvP.
  You mean instanced, carebear PvP like the WoW battlegrounds?
23. Re:They let anyone on these days... by elrous0 · 2009-06-10 02:27 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  It's sad that we live in a MMO gaming world where everyone who isn't a rude, ruthless prick of a griefer is derided as a "carebear." Some of us play games to actually have fun, you know. Not all of us are anti-social outcasts looking to take our anger out on the world.
  
  --
  SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
24. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 02:29 · Score: 1
  
  Personally, I LOATHE corpse runs like you mention
  If the one being camped (for more than a few kills), this is the time that you contact your fellow guild mates and reverse the camping situation.
  Or you just turn off the game and go do something else. That usually is what I do.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
25. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 02:30 · Score: 1
  
  I dunno, as an admitted griefer, you're still someone I'd hope that Blizzard bans from the game entirely.
  And you're an example of why I keep doing it. Thanks for fueling my ambition.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
26. Re:They let anyone on these days... by harryandthehenderson · 2009-06-10 02:31 · Score: 1
  
  It's sad that we live in a MMO gaming world where everyone who isn't a rude, ruthless prick of a griefer is derided as a "carebear."
  No, a carebear is someone who willingly goes on a server where everyone is free to kill you at any time and then complains about it.
  
  Some of us play games to actually have fun, you know. Not all of us are anti-social outcasts looking to take our anger out on the world.
  Then play on the PvE server. That's what they are there for.
27. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 02:42 · Score: 0
  
  Thats a pretty one sided statement. EVE isnt a game that is friendly to people who dont like risk. In fact it is downright hostile.
  You can play the game in empire, not worry about the massive wars going on outside of the bubble of secure space and play the game. Yea there is some people who will try to mess with you but overall you can play, and do what you want with relative safety.
  You can choose empire or you can join a Corperation in 0.0 space and see how the other half plays. Of course if you choose 0.0 you will die, alot. You will lose ships in "unfair" situations. You could just be going one jump and then you are stuck in a interdictor bubble and killed. A pack of ships will warp scramble you and blow you up. Enemy ships will harrass your mining/ratting operations. The key is you have to be aware of it, fly what you can afford to lose, be smart about what you do, use the intel you get from your corp to avoid being a target.
  The ones that are in 0.0 that bitch about fights being unfair have no reason to be there in the first place, get back to empire and have your little space bushido 1 vs 1 fights, cause there is a war going and we dont need your cryin.
28. Re:They let anyone on these days... by ShieldW0lf · 2009-06-10 02:49 · Score: 1
  
  Wedgies in high school had zero penalties. Why don't you pay me $15 a month and I'll come over and give you one for old times sake. It actually did. The person doing it would get in trouble with the school. You're comparing apples to oranges, sir.
  
  Way to miss the bloody point... Deliverer of Wedgie is to WoW Killer as Recipient of Wedgie is to WoW Victim.
  
  You didn't do very well on the standardized tests, did you?
  
  --
  -1 Uncomfortable Truth
29. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Xsydon · 2009-06-10 02:50 · Score: 1
  
  Most of the WoW population plays on PVE servers and enjoys instanced PVP on a regular basis. I fail to see the problem with someone enjoying the game the way they see fit.
30. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 02:51 · Score: 1
  
  Way to miss the bloody point... Deliverer of Wedgie is to WoW Killer as Recipient of Wedgie is to WoW Victim.
  You didn't do very well on the standardized tests, did you?
  I think you're missing my point. You can't escape a wedgie, but you can turn off the game and do something productive if someone is ganking on in WoW.
  How were your reading comprehension scores?
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
31. Re:They let anyone on these days... by geekoid · 2009-06-10 03:00 · Score: 1
  
  Too bad history proves you wrong.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
32. Re:They let anyone on these days... by nschubach · 2009-06-10 03:04 · Score: 1
  
  It's just not worthwhile for a company to write that much content for people paying only $15 a month.
  While $15 doesn't sound like a lot per person, when you multiply that by the 100,000+ people that play, it quickly becomes a valid reason why these companies SHOULD be concentrating on content.
  
  --
  Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
33. Re:They let anyone on these days... by geekoid · 2009-06-10 03:04 · Score: 1
  
  "Death in wow has zero penalties, "
  False. It cost time and money and frustrates the user.
  Camping people is rude and bad form in every game.
  Trolling forums is also bad form.
  That person is a rude SOB and should be kick in the nuts.
  Twice.
  There is a difference between PVP and camping, and saying 'the game allows is' it very disingenuous. Especially when the creators of the game would like it stopped.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
34. Re:They let anyone on these days... by geekoid · 2009-06-10 03:05 · Score: 1
  
  "You get the idea."
  No, I dont think he does. I don't even think he is capable of understanding that idea.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
35. Re:They let anyone on these days... by geekoid · 2009-06-10 03:07 · Score: 1
  
  Being on a PVP server does not excuse camping. Sure he is fair game, but campier should be banned because the remove others from being able to play at all.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
36. Re:They let anyone on these days... by geekoid · 2009-06-10 03:08 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  "What if all your friends are griefers "
  get new friends.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
37. Re:They let anyone on these days... by cthulu_mt · 2009-06-10 03:12 · Score: 1
  
  Come play EVE Online.
  
  Griefing is a game feature!
  
  --
  Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
38. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Artifakt · 2009-06-10 03:12 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  There's no penalty to the character inside the game. There's a penalty to the person controlling that character in the real world (You've made them waste time waiting to respawn if nothing else, haven't you? You've made them devote time to a fight they consider pointless, rather than getting on with a mission that they don't feel is a waste of time. You've made them play your game, instead of the one they came to play. Often they lose any progress developing their character for the session, which I for one would find frustrating, especially if someone I didn't know seemed to have just singled me out personally for repeat treatments). So you're the one talking like the little pixel guy in the box is more important than the real person, and saying somebody else needs a reality check. That's a trifle scary all right. Some people take that attitude really far, and it's called being a sociopath. I'm NOT saying you're clinical just because you seem to be having a little trouble seeing beyond the WoW character to the person controlling it. You may really feel the game is a special situation. But, it looks to me like you are having some trouble imagining what the persons on the other ends of those characters may be feeling.
  Look, it's absolutely within the 'game mechanics' of Slashdot for me to really give you a hard time. I could have played amateur shrink and simply claimed you were seriously mental, and if I put that claim somewhere after the first few sentences I wrote, some people would have bought the logic. I could probably blow your remarks up into a huge deal, imply that you are one of those 'terrible' people Dr. Phil goes after for low empathy and maybe end up getting modded up by enough people to call it a win. But, the truth would suffer. You sound like a bit of a jerk, but that doesn't make you mentally ill, and the fact that local 'game mechanics' might let me get away with picking on you doesn't justify me doing it. Sometimes the right thing to do is to live up to a personal standard, whether the external rules enforce that standard or not.
  The language you use is part of the problem - you can call it 'griefing', and claim that it's the 'bad players' who complain about it, and use a term such as 'carebear' to describe the people who don't do it your way, but having a bunch of special slang to justify your position is common when putting it into normal English makes you look bad. It looks to me like you are deliberately trying to avoid thinking about your behavior in ways that might make you maybe regret it and maybe change.
  
  --
  Who is John Cabal?
39. Re:They let anyone on these days... by SCPRedMage · 2009-06-10 03:17 · Score: 1
  
  If the one being camped (for more than a few kills), this is the time that you contact your fellow guild mates and reverse the camping situation.
  Not all WoW players join guilds.
  
  --
  My sig can beat up your sig.
40. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Dan667 · 2009-06-10 03:21 · Score: 1
  
  In Eve griefing is actually encouraged.
41. Re:They let anyone on these days... by brkello · 2009-06-10 03:28 · Score: 1
  
  maybe that says something about how PvP is broken in WoW.
  
  Umm, maybe you shouldn't form an opinion on WoW's PvP based on a couple of posts on an online forum. If you don't like non-consensual PvP, then there are servers designed just for you in WoW.
  
  Yeah, you will get killed leveling on a PvP server. Is it a big deal? Never has been for me. I can see how it bothers some, but like I said, there are other options.
  
  If all your friends are griefers, then I suggest you get better friends.
  
  And it is kind of stupid for you to criticize a game you don't play. Also, it generally takes less than a minute to run back to your corpse so you are exaggerating in your example. It really isn't that big of a deal.
  
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42. Re:They let anyone on these days... by brkello · 2009-06-10 03:36 · Score: 1
  
  So your definition of carebear are people who PvP against people with a similar level that has specific objectives? Ahh, you fit the stereotype Eve player. A jerk that thinks that they are intellectually and skillfully superior to other because they are able to put up with the worst user interface to an MMO ever. The game is simple except for the layers of menus that have been created by people banned from working at Apple. It's sad, there are certainly nice people in Eve. But the vocal majority of Eve players are like this. Anti-social little pricks that will ask for your stuff if you criticize anything about the game.
  
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  Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
43. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 03:36 · Score: 1
  
  Also, it generally takes less than a minute to run back to your corpse so you are exaggerating in your example. It really isn't that big of a deal.
  Blizzard added new graveyards recently. It's under a minute in most cases.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
44. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 03:39 · Score: 1
  
  "Death in wow has zero penalties, "
  False. It cost time and money and frustrates the user.
  False. No repairs are required from being ganked by another player.
  And you're costing yourself time playing a game in the first place. Maybe you'd be better off playing Oblivion where nobody can hurt you.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
45. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Endo13 · 2009-06-10 03:40 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, because having someone inflict physical pain and/or discomfort on you is exactly the same thing as not being able to do what you want in a video game this very second.
  
  --
  There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
46. Re:They let anyone on these days... by brkello · 2009-06-10 03:45 · Score: 2
  
  I guess I don't understand why this would be fun for you. You are like a stalker. You follow around some poor girl who doesn't want you around her all for what? All you are doing is wasting your own time and making other people unhappy. It is fun for you. But what does that say about you? Were you abused as a child? Do you not have social skills and lack friends? I both think you are pathetic and feel sorry for you. You must have some real mental problems.
  
  --
  Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
47. Re:They let anyone on these days... by imbaczek · 2009-06-10 03:47 · Score: 1
  
  I prefer to not turn the game on in the first place.
48. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Jim_Maryland · 2009-06-10 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  Not all WoW players join guilds
  
  True. Hadn't thought about that option. I have seen plenty of "general" chat though from people requesting help with some <faction> players camping them. As long as I'm not too busy, I tend to lend a hand
49. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Spazztastic · 2009-06-10 03:56 · Score: 1
  
  I guess I don't understand why this would be fun for you. You are like a stalker. You follow around some poor girl who doesn't want you around her all for what? All you are doing is wasting your own time and making other people unhappy. It is fun for you. But what does that say about you? Were you abused as a child? Do you not have social skills and lack friends? I both think you are pathetic and feel sorry for you. You must have some real mental problems.
  I do it for fun because I'm a generally miserable person.
  
  --
  Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
50. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Jaysyn · 2009-06-10 04:04 · Score: 1
  
  Blizzard doesn't care, they already have your money.
  
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  There is a war going on for your mind.
51. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Gorm+the+DBA · 2009-06-10 04:12 · Score: 1
  
  You mean instanced, evenly matched fights where the better team has a chance to win like the WoW battlegrounds?
  
  Fixed your post.
52. Re:They let anyone on these days... by harryandthehenderson · 2009-06-10 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  Most of the WoW population plays on PVE servers and enjoys instanced PVP on a regular basis.
  That's great. I've played on the PvE servers as well.
  
  I fail to see the problem with someone enjoying the game the way they see fit.
  I don't have a problem with someone enjoying the game as they see fit. I do have a problem with the people who go onto PvP servers and then whine about the rules of the server and try to get things gimped so it's more like a PvE server. If you want to play on the PvE play on the PvE server and leave those of us on the PvP servers alone instead of trying to gimp the gameplay on our server.
53. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Jim_Maryland · 2009-06-10 04:28 · Score: 1
  
  World of Warcraft is a game. Part of the game (at least on some realms) includes player versus player combat. While I personally don't get into "camping" players more than 2-3 kills (mainly as revenge for a previous kill on me), I don't see anything wrong with people doing it. On a PvP server (my character is horde on Shattered Halls), I'm actually surprised that it doesn't happen more often.
  
  I guess I don't understand why this would be fun for you.
  
  Maybe the play style isn't what draws you to the game. For some, raiding is what they play for. Others enjoy the story line, some questing, and some enjoy the PvP aspect. PvP is not limited to battlegrounds and arenas on a PvP server.
  
  You are like a stalker.
  
  Maybe more like a hunter. Sometimes you go for a weak player, other times you look for a challenge (i.e. 1 vs. 2).
  
  You follow around some poor girl who doesn't want you around her all for what?
  
  Did you know that Blizzard created PvE servers to solve this?
  
  All you are doing is wasting your own time and making other people unhappy.
  
  Can you honestly say anything about the game is "productive" other than getting enjoyment from playing it? People will play the game differently to get their enjoyment. As for making another player unhappy, pick a PvE server. You can transfer your character to a PvE from a PvP server.
  
  Do you not have social skills and lack friends? I both think you are pathetic and feel sorry for you. You must have some real mental problems.
  
  Can't answer the social/friend question for others, but "in-game" != "real life" behavior. You are of course entitled to your opinions as am I. I find your dislike of PvP game play pathetic and feel sorry that you didn't play on a Pve server. As for mental problems, who knows. What is "normal" for a World of Warcraft player? How does this person deviate from the "norm"?
54. Re:They let anyone on these days... by cml4524 · 2009-06-10 04:38 · Score: 1
  
  you can turn off the game
  If we're going to start arguing ridiculous technicalities...
  Then maybe the people you grief should sue you for theft of services. Your sole intent in your actions is, by your own admission, to inflict mental anguish on other people who are paying to play a game that you're interfering with. As a result, they could show that they were financially harmed by your actions. Sue you for a buck and tack on fifty grand for the pain and suffering caused by your harassment....
  Or you could just grow up and stop acting like a spoiled child when you're on the internet. Whichever.
55. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 04:39 · Score: 1
  
  "get in trouble with the school"
  please. everyone knows how easy it is to avoid the rules in school. bullying is just as easy as griefing online; there is no punishment for wedgies on the walk home
56. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 04:49 · Score: 0
  
  you're right. a wedgie was better. it went away. griefing lasts for months.
57. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Tofino · 2009-06-10 04:57 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  If you are playing an MMORPG, your time is worthless. They are all insane time-sinks. Even a casual-friendly game like WoW where you can "just log in and out for short sessions" realistically takes close to an hour or so just to log in, check and relist auctions, do a couple of daily quests, mail off new loot to your mule, and say hi to friends. And that's just the daily-chore part of playing.
58. Re:They let anyone on these days... by CorporateSuit · 2009-06-10 05:09 · Score: 1
  
  That's consensual PvP.
  That's so lame. Duels are only fun for so long in an open world. It's the guerilla ambush tactics -- hit and run... People don't sit down for a nice, romantic picnic with their pretend girlfriend in TF2 in the middle of the woods, unwary that you and a small warparty are stealthed nearby, waiting to jump out and tear their heads off. Before the expansions, when I still played, I would go into the enemy's single auction house and clear out the auctioneers. It was hilarious watching 50 people, in shock, struggling to find out why their auction windows all closed down. That's what makes griefing so fun. It's not the combat, but the surprise, delayed reaction, and eventual attempt at combat before faltering. It's not about playing fair and waiting until the other guy is "ready" -- but waiting until the other guy goes for a sandwich (or thinks YOU just went for a sandwich)
  
  It's the psychological battle that makes griefing so fun. Anyone can kill lower-level characters. It's the obsessive compulsive that camps a body until the person gives up (or calls in their level 60's-80's from the city to clear you out and camp Your body until You give up) -- in which case you may as well be camping their entire warband's corpses, because it's not like they're going anywhere! It's the black heart it takes to tell someone in the forums you'll meet them at Blackrock spire for a fair fight, after you've killed them 3 to 1 all night, and then never showing up -- knowing they missed their raids for the night. It's about roleplaying a poorly-spoken Shakespearean-Englische Trolle who seeketh the elve that hathe killed his forsootheth father when thou art on a non-RP PVP serverre. (If anything, trolls should RP with Jamaican accents)
  
  I suppose you could do that last one on TF2...
  
  --
  I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
59. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 05:12 · Score: 0
  
  I really like hunting down trolls, come to cenarius pls :) There is nothing more fun in an MMORPG than sticking it to someone who really deserves it, AND KNOWS IT :)
60. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Veggiesama · 2009-06-10 05:14 · Score: 1
  
  It's also an interesting response because it's the same knee-jerk defense of WoW PvP I've read in many other forums. If you don't like it, go away. If that's become such a quick response to anything that seems even remotely to be an attack on PvP, maybe that says something about how PvP is broken in WoW. Can you play on a PvP server without griefing or being griefed? What if all your friends are griefers and refuse to roll on anything but a PvP server? Is there any point to playing on a PvP server besides being able to one day grief others? Do people even distinguish between griefing and PvP anymore or is it basically, "You're on a PvP server. Expect PvP all day, every day. Oh and by the way PvP means that as you're out questing you'll encounter random groups of PvP equipped max level players who will kill you and camp your corpse."
  I started my characters on a PVP server when the game first came out, and it was a lot of fun. Running into someone and not knowing whether they'd be friendly or hostile, the constant paranoia, the fight for control of quest resources--it made the game a little more interesting.
  (Disclaimer: I played a night elf rogue, so my character usually had the jump on people, and he had good escape abilities if things went sour. Other classes didn't have such an easy time.)
  Even with all those perks, as soon as people hit the max level, everything changed. Maxed-out griefers replaced world PvP between characters and groups of similar levels. Bored high-level characters (who didn't have access to Battlegrounds yet) ran around and slaughtered low-levels who didn't have a chance.
  Nowadays it's almost impossible to level up characters on old PVP servers during prime-time hours. You need to bring your high-level wherever your alts go, so if you get corpse-camped, you login with a high level character and fight the griefer. If that doesn't work, you whine over the general chat until someone helps you.
  It was really a lesson in frustration, so I gave up playing WoW. If I ever return, I'm going to a PvE server, where PvP is consensual and optional.
61. Re:They let anyone on these days... by vertinox · 2009-06-10 05:19 · Score: 1
  
  There's no penalty only if your time is worthless. Say you were on your way somewhere and then BAM you're a ghost 10 minutes from your corpse. Run back to your corpse and BAM you're a ghost for 10 more minutes. You get the idea.
  Ghost? Who plays Ultima Online anymore? ;)
  (I mean all other games don't have the ghost system as far as I know but instant respawn at your bind point)
  
  --
  "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
  -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
62. Re:They let anyone on these days... by MBGMorden · 2009-06-10 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  No - you could get in other people to help you out. That's what world PvP is about. Personally I hate that gamestyle, so I don't participate, but signing up and then complaining about reality is stupid.
  Example - I shoot IPSC matches (pistol competition) occasionally. I shoot in the production division (factory configuration guns) because I can't afford a $2k+ gun to really stand a chance in the open division (more or less sky is the limit custom guns). That's fine by me - but very often at a match I'll hear guys in open complaining that it's not fair that they're shooting against rich guys with equipment that outstripes their own.
  The simple fact is if you don't want to play within a set of rules, don't, but don't choose one set and then complain that others are putting you at a disadvantage by actually doing what's allowed in the rule set that you chose.
  
  --
  "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
63. Re:They let anyone on these days... by harryandthehenderson · 2009-06-10 05:46 · Score: 1
  
  Since when were the battlegrounds ever evenly matched fights? They were and still are almost always lopsided. I'm doubting you've ever been in a battlegrounds match before.
64. Re:They let anyone on these days... by harryandthehenderson · 2009-06-10 05:48 · Score: 1
  
  So your definition of carebear are people who PvP against people with a similar level that has specific objectives?
  
  No, my definition of a carebear is someone who goes on to a PvP server (where they have chances to be killed all the time) and then whine about it as if someone broke the rules.
  
  Ahh, you fit the stereotype Eve player. A jerk that thinks that they are intellectually and skillfully superior to other because they are able to put up with the worst user interface to an MMO ever.
  Nope, I hated EVE. Played it for about a month and got bored.
  
  Anti-social little pricks that will ask for your stuff if you criticize anything about the game.
  I don't. I criticize people who go onto PvP servers or games and then whine about the fact that *gasp* they actually got killed by other people. If you don't want to be in constant danger of being killed roll on a PvE server or play a game that isn't PvP-oriented and stop trying to gimp the rules of the PvP server or game.
65. Re:They let anyone on these days... by ground.zero.612 · 2009-06-10 05:51 · Score: 0
  
  You've obviously never played an instance based MMO. Kinda hard to steal kills and loot in DDO, and with the voice chat and friends system it's easy to mark a griefer and avoid them.
  
  --
  "Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
66. Re:They let anyone on these days... by drinkypoo · 2009-06-10 05:54 · Score: 1
  
  There's no penalty only if your time is worthless.
  Obviously it is, if you're paying to play a video game. I mean, if you're griefing gold farmers then you're some kind of thug, but other than that...
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
67. Re:They let anyone on these days... by zenasprime · 2009-06-10 05:55 · Score: 1
  
  I've been playing eve off an on since it was released and have yet to have been griefed in any way. Sometimes it seems that reputations out shine reality.
68. Re:They let anyone on these days... by cayenne8 · 2009-06-10 06:01 · Score: 1
  
  Ok..I'm a little lost. What is PVP or PVE? What is 'camping'?
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
69. Re:They let anyone on these days... by johnbr · 2009-06-10 06:26 · Score: 1
  
  Because of its instanced nature, DDO is not as vulnerable to griefing as other games that are open-world.
  It's just one of the things that I prefer about DDO, compared to other MMOs.
70. Re:They let anyone on these days... by poetmatt · 2009-06-10 06:32 · Score: 1
  
  Time is not a true penalty for the sense of this argument. I recognize the respawn delay if you die too much, running to your body, etc. However, 10 minutes of your time isn't a real cost: you don't lose any resources. No gold or gear is lost from being ganked. Just your pride, which people get butthurt over. As the guy said, he isn't griefing people mid-quest, he's just griefing randoms.
71. Re:They let anyone on these days... by thesandtiger · 2009-06-10 06:36 · Score: 1
  
  He's not scamming people and isn't violating the rules to do his stuff. If people don't want to risk being camped they can play on a PvE server.
  If he were doing things like running instances and rolling need on everything or running instances and intentionally getting people in his party killed over and over and over, or scamming people in some way, that would be one thing. But camping someone is perhaps a bit unsportsmanlike, but perfectly within the rules.
  
  --
  Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
72. Re:They let anyone on these days... by MBGMorden · 2009-06-10 07:04 · Score: 1
  
  PvP is "Player vs Player". As it pertains to WoW, when you play on this type of server venturing outside of the most basic starting zones "flags" you, which means that other players from the opposing faction (the two factions in WoW being "Horde" and "Alliance") can attack you. Dying at the hand of the other player entails no penalty to experience or in money, but does require that you run (as a ghost) back to your body to resurrect, which can take a few minutes.
  PvE is "Player vs Environment". This playstyle refers to players who prefer to play against computer controlled opponents rather than other players. Often the focus here is on "raiding" where large groups of players (10 or 25 - in earlier content up to 40) take on computer controlled bosses in complex scenarios. On a server dedicated to PvE, you will generally not be attackable by the opposing faction (flagged) unless you either willfully flag yourself, or engage in PvP activites, either by attacking a previously flagged player, entering a battleground or opposing faction capital city, or entering a dedicated PvP zone such as Lake Wintergrasp (actually having dedicated PvP zones on PvE servers is a bit of a hot button issue, but that's for another time). If you were flagged due to an actual (rather than purposefully flagging) then you unflag after 5 minutes of no PvP activity.
  "Camping" or "Corpse Camping" is where a player attacks another player and kills them. They then wait at the body for the player to run back, and then when the other player resurrects they kill them again. Rinse and repeat until the camper or campee gets tired of it and one leaves and does something else. "Ganking" also often occurs in this scenario. "Ganking" is where a higher level character will travel to zones frequented by lower level characters specifically to attack other characters that have no possible chance of winning the engagement.
  If you play on a PvP server, then you're open to camping all the time. If you're on a PvE server though, unless you have activated your flag, then the other play can't attack you and so can't camp you. Even if you were flagged and get killed, you can always unflag and then wait 5 minutes as a ghost for the flag to go away, and then res without fear of being attacked.
  
  --
  "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
73. Re:They let anyone on these days... by hesaigo999ca · 2009-06-10 07:04 · Score: 1
  
  what do u mean, she's his next victim....it's not a waste of time...!
74. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Omestes · 2009-06-10 07:06 · Score: 1
  
  (I mean all other games don't have the ghost system as far as I know but instant respawn at your bind point)
  When you die in WoW you respawn as a ghost at the nearest graveyard. You either have to run back to your corpse (which rarely, if ever takes 10 min, more like 1-2min), or get an instant rez from a "spirit healer" which hurts your items durability, and gives you a long debuff subtracting something like 75% from all stats.
  Other than that there is no penalty to dying in WoW, especially from PKs.
  That said, I personally can't stand griefers. There is something about people who get their jollies just from annoying other people that irks me (and probably most adults).
  
  --
  A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
75. Re:They let anyone on these days... by thesandtiger · 2009-06-10 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  Why worry about what they call you? Anyone who feels the need to insult people just because they don't feel the urge to be dicks to people or to put up with being treated like shit is not what I'd call a healthy person, and their opinions are pretty much irrelevant. There's a schizophrenic guy who lives in a box in my alley, and when I see him he never fails to scream abuse at me - but he's a schizophrenic guy who lives in a box, so I don't really care what he thinks, you know? These people who are insisting that anyone who doesn't behave like a dick online are just the electronic version of that, and I certainly wouldn't want to spend time in the Forest of Feelings with them.
  
  --
  Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
76. Re:They let anyone on these days... by ethorad · 2009-06-10 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  PvP = Player versus Player - ie combat against other players
  PvE = Player versus Environment - ie fighting against in game monsters
  In some games such as World of Warcraft a player has to turn on PvP mode before they can be attacked by players (or choose to play on a PvP server where it's always on). Other games such as Eve have PvP mode always on.
  Camping is sitting on a certain point so that you can control some aspect of the game. Often either a weapon/ammo spawn point, or a player respawn point.
  In this instance by waiting next to someone's corpse, they'll resurrect right next to you on low health. The effect is an easy kill and the victim having to spend more time travelling back from the graveyard to the corpse and hoping that either you'll have gotten bored and left, or their friends have turned up and chased them away.
77. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Omestes · 2009-06-10 07:18 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I thinks its more the case that he was one of the fat nerdy kids bullied at school, and now he decided to bully other people to build up his self-image, but lacks the cojones to do it in person. Its his shining moment to attempt to be an alpha male, and grab some sense of power in a world that he generally perceives himself to be completely powerless in.
  Its like all the moronic trolls of the internet, basically. I doubt even 1% of them were abused as children, or such. Their just social rejects who were picked on by the cool kids, and the internet allows them to act in a way they perceive as cool, meaning being a dick to others.
  Also the dynamics of the internet helps. Your semi-anonymous, so your actions have no consequences whatsoever, and its easier to dehumanize the other people sitting behind their computers at home. I find it kind of funny that these people probably are meek, timid, dorks in real life, completely lacking the gumption to act like they do online. It makes them even more sad an pathetic, I'd have more respect for them if they acted like they do in real life, and faced the consequences for it.
  Sometimes I wish there was actual consequences for online behavior, or we'd get rid of online anonymity all together. But then I realize that it exists for a reason, so we have to accept the good along with the bad.
  
  --
  A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
78. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Omestes · 2009-06-10 07:22 · Score: 1
  
  Not true. If that one person paying their $15/mo causes too people to quit, they lose money. So they have some motivation to keep griefing down.
  And yes, I've know a couple people who actually quit over people being asshats. And no, just moving to a PVE server doesn't help, since your experience is already tainted, and PVE servers are also full of morons (though to a lesser extent than PVP, obviously).
  
  --
  A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
79. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Reapy · 2009-06-10 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  I think the rabid defending of pvp and terms like carebear has to do with people meta gaming within a game, living by some 'code of honor'. I've seen that kind of stuff in multiplayer games over the year just destroy game after game.
  It is odd, it is like a segment of the community who can't handle the mechanics of the game as intended by the developer decided to invent their own variation of rules to make it easier for them.
  When I played warcraft 2, people complained about rushing. OMG it is so lame to get attacked by grunts. Most experienced players would deal with this, and what would be a 5 min game vs an inexperienced player turns into a 45 min epic fight. But wait, people don't like getting knocked out in 5 minutes, so, rather then getting better and dealing with rushing, they invent ogre rules. ONLY ATTACK WHEN YOU HAVE OGRES!! Meta gaming within the game you are playing.
  When I played jedi outcast I would join FFA servers. This gamestyle is a competition for the most kills. It resulted in what I like to call 'frag pits' of people swinging all the f over the place. Kill as fast as possible by any means to top the frag chart. Then one day, people started running around with their saber turned off. Natrually you jump and kill these people asap to boost your frag count.
  Suddenly you see "OMG YOU HAVE NO HONOR WHATS WRONG WITH YOU!!! REAPY IS ATTACKIGN ME WITH MY SABER DOWN!!!!!"
  At first it was just complainers. Shrug, what is wrong with him? No honor, he wants to just duel. There is a duel server time, this is an ffa! Pretty soon though, it was next to impossible to find a ffa server, that was ffa! Meta rules. My saber is down don't attack me! I just want to play this one aspect of the game!
  When I was in elementary school we used to play a game called 4 square. The game was a grid of 4 squares. The point was to let a kickball bounce in your square, then hit it to another square, who would let it bounce once then hit it to another. You get out if it hits your square and you dont hit it back, you hit it out, or a ball hit at you strikes you before bouncing. As someone gets knocked out everyone moves up a square, with 4 square being in charge.
  I played it well enough in elementary school, and despite not having many friends and basically having most kids gang up to try to get me out, I figured out the tactics they used and were able to stay alive despite the odds. Well I moved to another school and they played here, but, all of a sudden the game changed.
  First it was 'backstops', I could let the ball bounce once, then set myself up by hitting it gently into my square then slamming it into another square. Then later on people created rules that basically allowed players to pick the ball up and throw it into someone elses square to get them out.
  Granted this is all kid stuff, but it destroyed the fun of the game. People couldn't contend with not winning in the ruleset, so they changed the rules to their advantage.
  Most of these outcries, especially about PVP rpg games, just non stop call people griefers who beat them. That is what it ultimately comes down to, I just got beat by another person, let me think of some xyz "cheap" tactic he used but I refuse to learn to defend against it in the game. Posts like this pop up all over the place.
  A long time ago someone coined this game phenomenon and called these people 'scrubs'. Look up the articles by 'sirlin' about competitive street fighter. He said it so long ago but it applies to almost all forms of gaming.
  So when people yell GRIEFER!! and say there is something wrong with a person for utterly defeating them over and over again, it is a sad sad reminder of this 'everyone is a winner' philosophy that seems to be getting more and more prevalent in our society.
  Everything in wow can be dealt with. Firstly, you either flagged yourself for pvp or joined a special ruleset server. So complaining about any form of world pvp is stupid in itself. It is like joining an ice hockey league and being pis
80. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Chris+Burke · 2009-06-10 07:49 · Score: 1
  
  I'd rather just grief. Even with pay-to-play, you spend your $15 a month to play how you want, I spend mine to camp people
  In other words, you playing how you want is in preventing other people from playing how they want.
  Kinda makes it obvious how much bullshit the "you play how you want, i play how i want" line is coming from you.
  I'm a dick to people in WoW only because it's the last fun thing to do.
  Here's an idea: Find a game where you can have fun doing something other than trying to rob other people their fun.
  
  --
  
  The enemies of Democracy are
81. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 08:09 · Score: 0
  
  I suppose you think that the arenas are carebear too?
  If instanced PvP is out, then the only form left is World PvP and that is almost entirely griefing. For every case of players coming across someone their level while questing and killing each other, there are scores of people killing and camping those who clearly stood no chance -- the victim being a much lower level, a *v1 situation, etc. The only real exception to this is Wintergrasp, but I doubt anyone would consider that hardcore.
  Face it, your only idea of "valid" PvP is griefing, and that says a lot about the kind of person you are.
82. Re:They let anyone on these days... by moorewr · 2009-06-10 08:23 · Score: 1
  
  DDO is instanced; the only un-instanced areas are public areas and PVP pits. The most a griefer can do is try to trick into letting them in your party or annoy in public places. Either way they can't kill you, and they can't get your stuff.
  That said I suspect F2P will make my ignore list much bigger.
  As to why you would play DDO.. for one thing it has the best combat of any MMO. Fast, real-time, twitch driven. It has no competitors there except for late unlamented Hellgate. And many of the rules still resemble D&D v3.5.
  It's the only MMO I have stuck with, and I have tried many. WoW? No way.
83. Re:They let anyone on these days... by pregister · 2009-06-10 09:49 · Score: 1
  
  Thats the annoying thing for me. I DO want to be on a server where I have to be cautious, know who is nearby, and am ready to defend myself at any time. I love that. It makes the game for me.
  I don't want to spend a half an hour rezzing at my corpse at low health/mana/energy/whatever and be attacked again and again and again by the same asshat.
  I have no problems with being killed. Hell, I don't even have a problem with being ganked. If you got the drop on me and killed me, great. If you're just a better player than me and killed me, also great. If you're 30 levels higher than me and killed me, great. If you then sit around waiting for me to come back so you can do it again, you're just being an asshole. Do the rules allow it? Sure. Do I hope you get a power surge and receive a painful but non-lethal shock that causes your hair to fall out and your penis to shrink to half its size. Yep.
  Just because the rules allow something doesn't mean you're not a prick for doing it.
84. Re:They let anyone on these days... by maglor_83 · 2009-06-10 11:08 · Score: 1
  
  No, a carebear is someone who willingly goes on a server where everyone is free to kill you at any time and then complains about it.
  So that relates to battlegrounds on PvE servers how exactly?
85. Re:They let anyone on these days... by skreeech · 2009-06-10 13:50 · Score: 1
  
  The player should learn to avoid it. They should not need their handheld for this especially in a game as forgiving as wow.
  
  --
  [20:36] wwwdot/.dotorg
86. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 23:20 · Score: 0
  
  DDO is almost exclusivly instanced contnet, There is no ganking, kill stealing, or greifing. About the only thing you can do to someone is send anoying tells, and that would just get you ignored and reported.
87. Re:They let anyone on these days... by Jaeph · 2009-06-11 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  We could say the same in reverse - people playing a game with the rules as written, following the design intent of the game and in no way exploiting, should not be subject to the word "griefer". It's a shame that maladjusted people who simply can not handle losing feel a need to badmouth others.
  -Jeff
  
  --
  Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
Last-ditch effort by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-09 23:18 · Score: 1, Interesting

DDO has never had the subscriber base to really support the game. This is a last-ditch effort to make the game profitable. Expect the whole thing go down the crapper if it doesn't fly.
If Turbine would only understand that people reject their otherwise fairly competent MMOs because both DDO and LOTRO suffer from terrible animation quality, clunky animation system and poor client-side prediction (leading to stutering and warping of characters). Their current MMO engine just doesn't cut it. Doesn't matter how good content you have on top of the unsound foundation.
1. Re:Last-ditch effort by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 02:24 · Score: 0
  
  I was immediately reminded of this.
2. Re:Last-ditch effort by nametaken · 2009-06-10 03:12 · Score: 1
  
  Three Rings did this with Puzzle Pirates, and maintained a pay service.
  To the best of my knowledge they're still moving along.
3. Re:Last-ditch effort by johnbr · 2009-06-10 06:40 · Score: 1
  
  Normal people don't reject MMOs because of stuttering and warping (neither of which happens in DDO, btw).
  Normal people reject MMOs because they aren't fun. DDO has had problems getting content out the door on a timely basis, and in some of the bells-and-whistles of housing and customization. That is where it has struggled.
Stop asking for the other kind of free by selven · 2009-06-09 23:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

If you open source an online game with a client you're going to get aimbots, programs that triple the onscreen size of all your enemies, speedhacks, and a whole host of other forms of cheating. That's just what happens when you let people modify whatever they want in the client.
1. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-09 23:39 · Score: 1
  
  So closed source games are free of said hacks? No? Well, I be damned!
  There's this thing - the "server". It can do things like "hack prevention" and "sanity checks". Who's to say that the only contribution to open source would be client-side hacks and not server-side anti-hack improvements?
  I'm not argueing for open source games, but saying there will be hacks because of open source is just as dumb as saying an open source encryption tool is less secure than closed source security-by-obscurity implementation.
2. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by RiotingPacifist · 2009-06-09 23:40 · Score: 1
  
  Not if you do it right, require a signed stack and other DRM-like tricks and your at least as safe as a closed source game. Open source means you can't hide your server side deficiencies (trusting the client) behind client side code, but at the end of the day between decompiers are reverse engineers the bulk of your code will be out there anyway. TBH whatever you do your going to get cheats and hackers (although speed hacks are down to poor server-side code), I'm an FPS guy and whether your paying HL(w/ VAC and a) or assaultcube the only thing that protects you from cheats are good server admins and id wager a large amount that the same can be said of MMOs
  
  --
  IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
3. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by QuantumG · 2009-06-09 23:41 · Score: 1
  
  require a signed stack and other DRM-like tricks
  Which is simply impossible to do with open source.
  
  --
  How we know is more important than what we know.
4. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by RiotingPacifist · 2009-06-09 23:59 · Score: 1
  
  It's tricky but i fail to see how getting major distros to sign their openGL/audio stacks, then requiring the clients to verify they are using a valid stack, is impossible? And you can also verify the client is valid by using a small 3rd party executable, like closed source games do. yeah its not perfect as you either need to close some of the source (the verifying software) or just accept that no protection is perfect and hopefully raise the bar above that of HL/whatever game cheats love playing at the moment.
  .
  Additionally many cheats can be caught out, and subsequently banned by using secure servers, with dumb clients (speedhack,aimbot,etc are easy to see server side) and a lot of other stuff is virtually undetectable (ESP,wallhacks,etc) by anything other than a human admin, with a feel for the game and experience in catching cheats.
  
  --
  IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
5. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Hubbell · 2009-06-10 00:08 · Score: 1
  
  Everything but aimbots/radar/wall hacks can be easily stopped via server side sanity checks. The client is in the hands of the enemy, therefore you nothing but the bare minimum to run the game into it. That's like MMO 101 from 1996.
6. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by TheRaven64 · 2009-06-10 00:11 · Score: 1
  
  Only if you are an idiot. The first rule of client-server programming is don't trust the client. Don't give the client any more data than it needs, validate all messages from the client. Things like wall hacks only work because the server is providing the client with too much information. Speed hacks only work because the server is allowing the client to move more than the correct amount (i.e. not validating the input). As for tripling the size of on-screen enemies and aimbots; if your game depends so much on your ability to click accurately on small things to be fun, the odds are that it isn't.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
7. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 00:17 · Score: 0
  
  Isn't the whole point of open source to make software better and more effective? And isn't the point to kill as many enemies as possible?
8. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by jfim · 2009-06-10 00:26 · Score: 1
  
  So closed source games are free of said hacks? No? Well, I be damned!
  There's this thing - the "server". It can do things like "hack prevention" and "sanity checks". Who's to say that the only contribution to open source would be client-side hacks and not server-side anti-hack improvements?
  I'm not argueing for open source games, but saying there will be hacks because of open source is just as dumb as saying an open source encryption tool is less secure than closed source security-by-obscurity implementation.
  There are limits to what server-side checking can do. When your MMO starts getting overrun by people with autoclickers, bots and other annoyances that can be done client-side, no amount of server-side checking can help you.
  
  --
  Jean-Francois Im's blog
9. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by jfim · 2009-06-10 00:34 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Only if you are an idiot. The first rule of client-server programming is don't trust the client. Don't give the client any more data than it needs, validate all messages from the client. Things like wall hacks only work because the server is providing the client with too much information. Speed hacks only work because the server is allowing the client to move more than the correct amount (i.e. not validating the input). As for tripling the size of on-screen enemies and aimbots; if your game depends so much on your ability to click accurately on small things to be fun, the odds are that it isn't.
  No, wallhacks work because it is very expensive to perform thorough visibility checks on every single frame of the game(See Potentially visible set on Wikipedia). The idea is that a precalculated set of areas have information as to which other areas are potentially visible from that particular area. This means that an area spanning a corridor would have visibility into adjacent corridors, and thus, you could 'see' around corners with translucent walls.
  Pushing more information towards the client is an optimization, in the same way that database denormalization is. In an ideal world, you wouldn't need either of those, but we're still bound by performance constraints.
  
  --
  Jean-Francois Im's blog
10. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 00:41 · Score: 0
  
  But those sorts of problems can't be solved by closed-sourcing the program, either. Every MMO out there has custom auto-click macros built to make AFK-leveling/looting/training/ possible.
  Even besides that, something simple like a keyboard with programmable keys shifts the balance in favor of those with more software on that side. It's inherent to the medium.
11. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by dyingtolive · 2009-06-10 00:54 · Score: 1
  
  Yup, Open Source in insecure. Because people can see the code, you can't validate who is on the other side or secure a connection. Looks like someone is going to have to break the news to md5 and ssh.
  
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  Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
12. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by geminidomino · 2009-06-10 01:01 · Score: 1
  
  It's tricky but i fail to see how getting major distros to sign their openGL/audio stacks, then requiring the clients to verify they are using a valid stack, is impossible?
  
  Because if the client is open source, you just dyke out those checks.
13. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Rockoon · 2009-06-10 01:08 · Score: 1
  
  As the other poster had touched upon, there is a limit to the amount of input validation that can be accomplished because of simple economic/performance constraints.
  
  MMO's are in-general spartan as far as information passed back-and-forth because if it was any different, the servers would need a lot more bandwidth. This is also true for multi-player FPS's.
  
  Because of this, it is imperative that they DO hide the weaknesses behind a veil of secracy. A good example of this is Diablo II, where the entire level instance is transmitted once to the client. The server cannot afford the bandwidth to be constantly updating the map as the player explores, nor can it afford the memory required to keep a sanity copy in order to detect when the client is displaying things it shouldn't.
  
  At its height in popularity, there were easily times with a hundreds of thousands of Diablo II players playing simultaneously worldwide. Each server had to handle thousands of players, so the servers were responsible for very little that wasn't absolutely essential as a result.
  
  --
  "His name was James Damore."
14. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by somersault · 2009-06-10 01:20 · Score: 1
  
  Things like wall hacks only work because the server is providing the client with too much information
  Games might suck a little without sound - and it would be a bit much having to render all the sound on the server.
  
  if your game depends so much on your ability to click accurately on small things to be fun, the odds are that it isn't.
  I don't know, I've had a lot of fun playing games like Counter-Strike where if you're good you can take someone out with one shot to the head (you can also do spray and pray and it's still fun and feasible with the right tactics, but you're more likely to die than if you take people out with razor-like precision). Games where you repeatedly have to pummel hundreds of shots into anywhere on a player's body are generally quite tedious in comparison IMO.
  
  --
  which is totally what she said
15. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by RalphSleigh · 2009-06-10 01:36 · Score: 1
  
  You can validate who is on the other end just fine (accounts, encryption keys, etc), what you can't check is what they are doing (cheating, displaying information sent to then in unintended ways or using scripts to generate input faster than a human could).
  
  --
  Come as you are, do what you must, be who you will.
16. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Rogerborg · 2009-06-10 01:40 · Score: 1
  
  aimbots, programs that triple the onscreen size of all your enemies, speedhacks, and a whole host of other forms of cheating
  Y'all ever play a MMORPG? They're Heroism By Spreadsheet; "aimbot" is a non sequitur.
  Speedhacks, gosh, since WOW is plagued by them, I guess it must be because the client is open source, rather than because some spazz dev decided that it was a good idea to have the server trust the client, right?
  Any popular game is going to have its client, or client protocol, compromised. There's no defence that doesn't turn into an asymmetrical arms race. Make it as tight as you like, I still own the operating system, and I'm the Man in the Middle.
  The solution is a robust and paranoid server design, not to try to secure the client. Make it a requirement that your server assume and act as though the thing connecting to it is a robot, not a player, and design your game so that said robot can't do anything that a player couldn't do better. If you can't meet that requirement, and your game is successful, then it will be compromised, and you need to accept that. Fortunately, with an MMORPG, you can design around this problem, if you put the work in up front.
  Trusting the security of the client seems quicker, easier, much like the Dark Side, but it will destroy you just as thoroughly in the end.
  
  --
  If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
17. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by dyingtolive · 2009-06-10 01:49 · Score: 1
  
  Okay, so you do enough server side checking to make sure users aren't doing anything stupid, you might have an issue worst case where people are using some sort of bot to automate their processes, like Glider. (I think that was the name of it...)
  
  Why are you letting non trusted clients dictate their own behavior anyway? You don't let someone who is VNC'ed into a remote box get root because they compiled their own client, right? Same thing. Assume cheating is going to be the norm and treat every client as hostile. Implement something like punkbuster that periodically will send updates to the server. What you could do is open source the client/server engines, but in the server application specific to the MMO running, have some sort of module they compile and release. The person running the client then takes this module and compiles it into their client. It can send back its checksum and sit running as a watchdog against the client application. This can handle all of the client side anti-cheating stuff since its unmodified and can be trusted. There are probably holes in this, but that's what I come up with after about four minutes of thinking about it.
  
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  Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
18. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Delwin · 2009-06-10 02:10 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  "The client is in the hands of the enemy" -- any MMO developer who's working on security.
19. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Delwin · 2009-06-10 02:12 · Score: 1
  
  Don't bother with trying to secure the client - it won't work. Just verify everything server side that you actually care about and let them do whatever they want with the client.
20. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by dyingtolive · 2009-06-10 02:22 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Apologies for replying to myself, but something else I thought of that would be awesome is a network game where some hacks are allowed. It could have a relatively complex goal that is hard to obtain doing it by hand, but the "real" purpose of the game is to write a hacked client that tries to fool the server into thinking its legit that performs this task. Sort of a honeypot MMO.
  
  Obviously, this idea is incompatible with the goals of the above idea. Just something that popped into my head.
  
  --
  Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
21. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by JSBiff · 2009-06-10 05:27 · Score: 1
  
  "Additionally many cheats can be caught out, and subsequently banned by using secure servers, with dumb clients (speedhack,aimbot,etc are easy to see server side)"
  On that note - I've wondered before - this wouldn't work for all types of possible cheats, but it seems to me like it should be possible to do some sort of server-side automatic analysis of client behavior, to see if people are using something like a speedhack, or certain other types of cheats, and auto-ban those types of accounts? Or, for gold-farming bots, do something like checking to see if a client has been connected and actively playing for more than like 24 or 36 hours at a time or something like that. Is anyone doing anything like that? Maybe this wouldn't even be done real-time (maybe real-time checks might slow down the servers too much), but maybe detailed logs of player activity could be kept, and analyzed on a seperate server, or during server downtime.
22. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 12:40 · Score: 0
  
  Diablo II games are hosted on the private PCs of the people playing the games. Blizzard has no need of servers for anything beyond battle.net, which is essentially a glorified chat room that allows you connect to other people's PCs and join the games. Diablo II doesn't compare to any MMO.
23. Re:Stop asking for the other kind of free by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-15 13:07 · Score: 0
  
  Not if the server asks for the 'hash' of a salt and a key that you only get at compile time by trusted distributors. Perhaps they can get the key from memdumps but you can do that to a closed game anyway (a bit of compile-time obfuscation might help stop automated analysis of code vs binary to get the key and make getting it from closed/open games just as tricky).
Microtransactions suck by KneelBeforeZod · 2009-06-09 23:30 · Score: 3, Funny

I don't pay items and gear. I win and earn them. .... Or I use a stolen credit card number
1. Re:Microtransactions suck by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-09 23:39 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  You sound like a real winner in life. Do you have a manifesto?
Whos going to play it? by RiotingPacifist · 2009-06-09 23:41 · Score: 1

I thought they just burned all their fans using copyright law, aren't we supposed to hate these guys ATM?

--
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
Will give it a try by Luc1fel · 2009-06-10 00:04 · Score: 0

I haven't played an MMO since Guild Wars went stale. I'll hold my opinion until I try and see it for myself, but I'm craving for a good fantasy RPG, so anything decent will keep me satisfied for awhile at least.
I'd love to see the IP free up.... by Durrok · 2009-06-10 00:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

... and to see someone make a niche game that actually caters DnD players VS whatever the heck Turbine tried to do with it. The screwed up on a lot of things. No randomized dungeons. No turn based combat (yes, it has it's issues but DnD is turn based - figure out how to do it right or GTFO). Absolutely terrible grinding with almost no content at launch. How do you take a niche market like MMOs, pick a setting that drills down your niche market even further, and then try to make it for anyone but these people?

--
I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
1. Re:I'd love to see the IP free up.... by evilkasper · 2009-06-10 01:12 · Score: 1
  
  I'll have to agree, but they were shooting for a larger audience. I'll have to say the first month was fun. I'm sorta casual when I play an MMO, but after the first month I'd done damn near everything in the game at that point. They also kept changing spell effects and effects of other abilities, never knew what you were going to be able to do when you logged on. A couple things that I did like though; tactical use of the environment. If I was on the 2nd floor and I could see enemies on the first, I could kill them and the game encouraged that, unlike so many that call it an exploit. I enjoyed how charm monster worked. Other than that it lacked anything significant to hold me.
2. Re:I'd love to see the IP free up.... by moorewr · 2009-06-10 08:26 · Score: 1
  
  Wizards may have chosen the setting, but Turbine did some things very well. From my perspective you couldn't be more wrong about the combat - that is THE way to take a turn based table-top game and make it a real time FPS.
  Did you play it? How far did you get?
3. Re:I'd love to see the IP free up.... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 12:50 · Score: 0
  
  It would also be nice to see a spell slot/memorization system implemented. I was disappointed when I learned DDO would be using the spell point system. That's not real D&D. We're not playing FF here.
4. Re:I'd love to see the IP free up.... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 12:58 · Score: 0
  
  Shame of this is Turbine had developed an amazing game that followed the DnD concept better.
  WOTC (Hasbro) walked in, looked at it, handed them a copy of WoW and said "No, make it like this".
  The early early testings of the game showed a much different concept that could have been amazing.
  Oh and while your trashing the entire concept, we still want the same release date.
  Oh and we are gonna stuff out 3.5 and a whole slew of other things that will diverge the tabletop from the online concept even more.
  I'm definitely not a Turbine or Hasbro fanboi, each of them is doing their own amazing job of killing off their games with stupid decisions.
  The problem is they see what WoW has become and how "popular" it is, ignoring all of the people who tried WoW and hated it, or only log into keep track of old friends. Hasbro had "dumbed down" DnD to attract the video game mentality. Seriously, power cards?
  One thing to ponder, if WoW is the be all end all high point of MMOs... wtf are there still people playing Everquest?
5. Re:I'd love to see the IP free up.... by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-15 05:56 · Score: 0
  
  "I'm definitely not a Turbine or Hasbro fanboi, each of them is doing their own amazing job of killing off their games with stupid decisions." I can't say I know what Turbine is doing. I stopped playing DDO a couple of years ago. As far as Hasbro/WTC though, 4th edition D&D is a complete farce of power-gaming ludicrous. Everything is so over powered. And what's with the healing surges? And the whole "bloodied" concept? Everyone I know ho plays D&D is sticking with 3.5 and earlier versions. I hope 4th edition flops. Unfortunately, it probably won't.
They Made D&D Online? by kenp2002 · 2009-06-10 00:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

Wow, it must have really sucked to fly under my radar...
Anyway, I should contribute something to the discussion.
The whole point why successful dating services (yeah who would have throught MMOs and Dating Services had something in common) charge is to create a cost-of-entry that separates serious participants from the rest of the population.
By making a game free-to-play you are inviting disaster as many /.'ers have pointed out.
In fact game studios would do far better to charge MORE for certain options.
I know at least 400 VN board members that pleaded with Mythic for a 21+ and over server for DAOC. We were so damn sick of the 10 year olds playing...
Same with the hard core role players. They were willing to shell out $20 a month for a hard core, RPG server.
I'd wager you would also get some people to kick in $5 extra a month for say 40 and older servers also for people that still remember how to spell OKAY.
Seriously free-to-play means every idiot and their cousin can get on. Remember how pissed the techie crowd was with AOL and COMPUSERV for bring ever no-nothing to the Internet?
Seriously look what happened to WoW when they started their free trial program. First week alone on Tichndrius there where 200+ people spamming Gold ads in Ironforge forever renaming it LAGFORGE and SPAMFORGE.
Even after the tweaks to shut up folks on trial accounts you still had to contend with starting an alt and have 100 level 1 bots camping every spawn with some level 40 (at the time) telling you that if you want to kill stuff you had to play him 10 gold. (We had a big problem with Cross Realm extortionists back then...)
Seriously D&D Online must have sucked pretty bad for flying this low under the radar and making a free-to-play version sounds like a really really bad idea...
But hey I love being proven wrong. It happens once in a while and I find it refreshing.

--
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
1. Re:They Made D&D Online? by Tridus · 2009-06-10 00:56 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I know at least 400 VN board members that pleaded with Mythic for a 21+ and over server for DAOC. We were so damn sick of the 10 year olds playing...
  The problem is that half the "10 year olds" are actually 30 and just act 10. Age restricted servers don't block stupid.
  
  --
  -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
2. Re:They Made D&D Online? by gardyloo · 2009-06-10 01:01 · Score: 1
  
  I'd wager you would also get some people to kick in $5 extra a month for, say, 40-and-older servers, and for people who still remember how to spell O.K..
3. Re:They Made D&D Online? by _Shad0w_ · 2009-06-10 01:10 · Score: 1
  
  O.K., as far as I know, is the older form, dating for 1839; whereas "okay" dates from the 1890s. The initialism "O.K." seems to have been replaced by the "OK" form in the 1970s, even though it's still pronounced as an initialism, rather than an acronym.
  Also, "know-nothing", "every" and "bringing".
  
  --
  Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
4. Re:They Made D&D Online? by kenp2002 · 2009-06-10 01:33 · Score: 1
  
  True but as a barrier of entry a 10 year old will have a hard time justifying the extra cost to mom and dad.
  
  --
  -=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
5. Re:They Made D&D Online? by kenp2002 · 2009-06-10 01:38 · Score: 0, Redundant
  
  How crap kiddo it's not even 9 am where I am at. If I was writing a paper I'd at least get a cup of coffee first. You grammar nazis need to relax.
  As far as Okay goes, that was the requried spelling in schools till about... 2004. At least in real schools rather then those public daycares they run now...
  Me go now to the blew house and ates some nummies for break fast and den write j00 back k? ;)
  
  --
  -=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
6. Re:They Made D&D Online? by Vohar · 2009-06-10 01:43 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Yeah...Age of Conan supposedly had an older player base, but people still seemed to think "mature" meant "Be a dick all the time. Also, and nipples and blood."
  The most disconcerting reality checks came in groups where based on the player's chat and performance I'm -positive- they're a kid...Then they say they need to go afk "cuz my kid's crying."
7. Re:They Made D&D Online? by psychicninja · 2009-06-10 03:12 · Score: 1
  
  Seriously D&D Online must have sucked pretty bad for flying this low under the radar and making a free-to-play version sounds like a really really bad idea...
  Yes, your ignorance is clearly the standard by which all MMOs should be judged.
8. Re:They Made D&D Online? by geekoid · 2009-06-10 03:14 · Score: 1
  
  "the 10 year olds playing..."
  I am a father, my children are 8 and 11. trust me, those people are over 21.
  No 10 year old would act that way. You either have to be doing it on purpose for a kick, or really not belong in socitety to behave that way.
  If there was a 8-12 year old server, I would lie to play on it. There would be almost no griefing, and people would be relatively polite.
  Hmmm. That sounded far creepier then it should.
  The only approach I can think of that might work is to ahve a server that is heavily moderated and people are banned reasonably often.
  Actually this is DND, just threaten to take a level a stat point and there best magic item.
  That would shut them up right quick.
  
  --
  The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
9. Re:They Made D&D Online? by jjohnson · 2009-06-10 03:57 · Score: 1
  
  Your point about dating services and costs of entry is undercut by various scandals at places like match.com, where it was demonstrated that female employees were creating profiles and going on dates as part of their job, in order to balance the male/female ratio and keep men paying the monthly fee.
  
  --
  Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
10. Re:They Made D&D Online? by Chris+Burke · 2009-06-10 04:05 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Also, and nipples and blood.
  O_o Eeeeewww!
  The most disconcerting reality checks came in groups where based on the player's chat and performance I'm -positive- they're a kid...Then they say they need to go afk "cuz my kid's crying."
  The tragedy of teenage pregnancy strikes reaches even into the online world!
  But seriously, it's funny how some of my best WoW-only friends have been actually kids in the 10-15 range. Sure they think Chuck Norris jokes are hilarious no matter how many times you spam chat with them, but otherwise were reasonably intelligent, polite, and generally not a demonstration of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory like so many "adults" prove to be.
  BTW, in my experience, the best way to get rid of stupid isn't with age-restricted servers/services, but by simply putting the initials "RP" after the server name. It's exactly the kind of 30-year-old man-child-idiot who thinks they're too cool for an RP server who you want to exclude, and they do it all by themselves!
  
  --
  
  The enemies of Democracy are
11. Re:They Made D&D Online? by kalirion · 2009-06-10 04:13 · Score: 1
  
  I'd wager you would also get some people to kick in $5 extra a month for say 40 and older servers also for people that still remember how to spell OKAY.
  I think you'd be hard pressed to find a 40 year old who still writes/types "Okay."
12. Re:They Made D&D Online? by Vohar · 2009-06-10 04:16 · Score: 1
  
  Also, and nipples and blood.
  O_o Eeeeewww!
  I was going to reply to this with, "Not at the same time!"
  But in Age of Conan...yeah.
13. Re:They Made D&D Online? by CFBMoo1 · 2009-06-10 04:45 · Score: 1
  
  BTW, in my experience, the best way to get rid of stupid isn't with age-restricted servers/services, but by simply putting the initials "RP" after the server name. It's exactly the kind of 30-year-old man-child-idiot who thinks they're too cool for an RP server who you want to exclude, and they do it all by themselves!
  It's not fool proof, but it does throw them off for a while. The RP server I'm on in WoW is a really great place but over time those kinds of people you describe seem to show up more often then they used to.
  
  --
  ~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
14. Re:They Made D&D Online? by castironpigeon · 2009-06-10 04:57 · Score: 1
  
  The only approach I can think of that might work is to ahve a server that is heavily moderated and people are banned reasonably often.
  I agree and think this works well in a small group environment. It's obvious who is there to have a good time and who is there to be an asshat. Admins know the regulars and take the time to know newbies. When somebody logs on to cause trouble they can whip out the ban stick very quickly.
  
  I used to help admin a small MUX. No formal rules or penalties, just have a good time and be a decent human being. I had no trouble banning obvious troublemakers on a first offense. Everyone was very happy with this common sense system. However, we had maybe 40 regulars and 10 on at a time. I can't imagine doing something like this on a server with a population in the thousands or even in the hundreds.
  
  --
  mmmm...forbidden donut
15. Re:They Made D&D Online? by anomnomnomymous · 2009-06-10 05:17 · Score: 1
  
  The whole point why successful dating services (yeah who would have throught MMOs and Dating Services had something in common) charge is to create a cost-of-entry that separates serious participants from the rest of the population.
  
  I would like to point out that one of the most succesful datingsites at the moment is Plenty of Fish... which is free.
  I've used it for quite some time now (not necesarily looking for a relationship, but also for some extra friends), and I got to say that the amount of fake profiles, or rude behaviour is few and far between.
  
  --
  When you shoot a mime, do you use a silencer?
16. Re:They Made D&D Online? by Chris+Burke · 2009-06-10 07:39 · Score: 1
  
  It's not fool proof, but it does throw them off for a while. The RP server I'm on in WoW is a really great place but over time those kinds of people you describe seem to show up more often then they used to.
  I worried that this was exactly what was happening, I started to think there was no difference. So i logged on to the non-rp server I'd first rolled on when I first started playing WoW. It took about ten seconds to realize that the difference was still night-and-day.
  Kinda like that super-hot day where I'd shut myself in my room with my window unit AC. I turned it off, and in a while it was very hot and I was sweaty, so I figured the temperatures were equalized and i should go to the kitchen to get a drink. The second I opened the bedroom door I was blasted by hot air way beyond what was in the room. I'd just gotten used to the cold, so the kinda-hot seemed a lot hotter than it really was. Same deal with Internet Fuckwads. :)
  
  --
  
  The enemies of Democracy are
17. Re:They Made D&D Online? by westlake · 2009-06-10 08:30 · Score: 1
  
  Remember how pissed the techie crowd was with AOL and COMPUSERV for bring ever no-nothing to the Internet?
  I also remember how games like Neverwinter Nights took the online RPG beyond its narrow techie base.
18. Re:They Made D&D Online? by EvilIdler · 2009-06-10 10:30 · Score: 1
  
  Putting "RP" after the name of a server is not enough. You must also make sure the servername isn't at the top or bottom of the list. See WoW and the hordes of stupid fuckers souring up Argent Dawn.
19. Re:They Made D&D Online? by kenp2002 · 2009-06-11 02:18 · Score: 1
  
  You say that like it was a good thing? There were a lot of people that left because there were a lot of people playing that "didn't get it". It's like those poor souls on RPG servers for WoW. They want to role play but there are just too many people that "Don't get it."
  It depends on which crowd you were in. The early adopters and insiders really didn't like it when every day joe started playing.
  
  --
  -=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
20. Re:They Made D&D Online? by justinlee37 · 2009-06-13 01:14 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  The whole point why successful dating services (yeah who would have throught MMOs and Dating Services had something in common) charge is to create a cost-of-entry that separates serious participants from the rest of the population.
  Okcupid.com is a successful dating service without a "cost-of-entry."
  Your rationale is suspect. It seems to me that the cost-of-entry makes the paid dating services less desirable, since you're putting a limit on the number of possible contacts which dampens the value of the product. Do you think that very many people would use AOL Instant Messenger if they had to pay for it? Do you think that very many people would keep using the old AOL service if they couldn't give AIM to their non-AOL using friends?
  Personally I think that dating services which charge a fee are crap and not worth the time or the money. I also feel sorry for you if you think that an important prerequisite for a mate is that they should be desperate enough for a date to pay $20+ up front for the chance to meet someone and have enough free money to do so. You might be missing out on some things in life.
21. Re:They Made D&D Online? by kenp2002 · 2009-06-14 03:26 · Score: 1
  
  First off free dating sight have very very POOR success at long term relationships. Even match.com which charges has terrible success. Getting laid isn't the measure of success of a dating service. Nor is finding a match. Long term relationships are the measure of success and few free internet dating sites can show success at a 5 year mark.
  A lawyer making $215,00 a year can go to a dating service that charges $100 a month for a membership.
  What it does is blocks out ever broke scrub out there that can't afford $100 a month.
  Somone willing to pay $200 a month is far more serious about finding a long term match thne hottie0091 is on yahoo personals.
  You seem bitter and angry. Calling people who use dating services desparate is insulting and just plain arrogant. Some people are just too busy to to hang out in places to meet people.
  You are a disgrace; although the character you have show, tells me you care little of the example you set.
  
  --
  -=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
22. Re:They Made D&D Online? by justinlee37 · 2009-06-14 03:34 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  Calling people who use dating services desparate is insulting and just plain arrogant
  I use dating services all of the time, I'm just not stupid enough to pay for communication over the internet beyond paying my internet bill. I'd rather meet people smart enough not to pay for something that ought to be free instead of meeting a bunch of dumbasses with more money than sense.
  free dating sight have very very POOR success at long term relationships
  Really? Do you have some sort of citation to back that up, or are you just making things up to minimize your own cognitive dissonance?
Signed stack? by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 00:56 · Score: 0

"Not if you do it right, require a signed stack and other DRM-like tricks"
How does that work? A long time ago, I thought about this idea, but then I couldn't figure out a way around a fundamental problem - how do you verify the signature that the other end of the connection reports is *really* the signature of the executable in use?
That is, in order to 'verify' the signature of the client, don't you have to trust the client to report its signature? What's to keep a hacked version of the client from reporting itself identically to the 'official' client, spitting back the same signature that you expect, instead of the real signature of the hacked executable? The first, immediate solution that comes to my mind to that problem would seem to be having the client do some sort of encryption every time it connects to the server, of a randomly generated value that the server sends to the client, but the problem with that, is that you then have to embed the encryption key into the client executable (or one of its libraries), which a hacker could then extract?
1. Re:Signed stack? by RiotingPacifist · 2009-06-15 12:51 · Score: 1
  
  but the problem with that, is that you then have to embed the encryption key into the client executable (or one of its libraries), which a hacker could then extract?
  that's why drm is fundamentally flawed, however the same can be said for closed source programs. While I'm not an expert on licensing and GPL3 may forbid keeping keys secret there are many licenses that would allow you to hide your keys and require memory dumps and the same tricks that are used for getting keys from closed products, while still having a fundamentally open engine.
  The signed stack is just so that you only have to trust 1 executable, instead of trusting that openGL isn't hacked to not render wall, I think most programs simply trust that your openGL/driecctX/audio/network/etc will do what they are told.
  Weather a game is open/closed is secondary to the security measures they take, IMO closed games have been getting away (sometimes well, othertimes not so much) with a very poor security model by hiding it entirely. And because no game can ever be perfect (they have to trust they are talking the correct executable), it will always be down to server admins to protect gamers from cheats anyway.
  
  --
  IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
Mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 00:58 · Score: 0

Informative.
1. Re:Mod parent up by TheThiefMaster · 2009-06-18 07:34 · Score: 1
  
  There's no point in an AC posting "mod up" messages, because mods are less likely to see them than the original post. The whole point of a "mod parent up" message is to draw attention to it, which is best done by users with a +1 starting score from high karma.
  That said, if I hadn't just used my last points in an earlier article I would have modded that post informative anyway.
Free only makes it suck marginally less... by theghost · 2009-06-10 01:29 · Score: 1

After the beta i said i wouldn't play that piece of crap if they paid me. This changes nothing.

--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Better than the beta? by antdude · 2009-06-10 01:38 · Score: 1

Has the game improved since the beta tests? I didn't like it much during beta compared to WoW.

--
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Turbine should use purchased content packs. by stratman4300 · 2009-06-10 01:51 · Score: 1

In my opinion if your going to go with Free-to-play, it's usually pretty smart to release frequent content packs that players have to pay for. I know, I know, It kind of defeats the whole Free-to-play idea but it does give the developer incentive to release more quality content than say a game like Runescape. I can see this game easily going the way of Runescape(but with better graphics and mechanics obviously) unless they're really careful with it. One major MMO that has followed that business model and it has worked beautifully for them: Guild Wars. Guild wars is still my favorite MMO and they run a free to play service. Just, when they release new content they do it in the form of an Expansion pack, that you can purchase from their online site or in stores. I think this still helps with the "Free-to-play-alot of 10 year olds" problem. I've played Guild wars for about 3 years and can only think of about 3 instances where i was seriously annoyed at someone being immature. Time will tell i suppose.
1. Re:Turbine should use purchased content packs. by johnbr · 2009-06-10 06:33 · Score: 1
  
  This is what they're doing - subscribers get free access to all new content. F2P players either have to earn points or pay for new content modules.
Pay2play by Luc1fel · 2009-06-10 02:01 · Score: 0

I see a lot of people saying that free = bad, and paying = good because it raises the player quality. How so?

I'm 23 years old, with very little free time to spend on gaming. When I was younger, I had the time and the money to spend on games. Right now, I'm not ready to dish out any kind of monthly or similar subscription because I won't be getting my money's worth back. As I see it, most of the gaming population willing to pay subscriptions are the ones with the free time to spare and mostly pre-college/work pupils.

Also, as already pointed out, paying for the game does not prevent stupid players from accessing the game, but I agree that making a bad game free won't make it better.
1. Re:Pay2play by Artifakt · 2009-06-10 03:38 · Score: 1
  
  I'm sure they don't all mean it this way, but some people have this whole idea that poorer people are more often messed up, stupid, or crooked. Somehow, getting to the point where you have a little more disposable income makes you a better person. It's a really silly version of a Marxist class struggle argument - especially when we are not talking rich vs. poor but 'lower middle class' vs. 'upper lower class', or something like that. For games, we're talking abut the difference between people who can afford a high speed connection but little more and people who have just a bit more disposable income each month.
  Money is a modest barrier to entry. It's like an age limit, say having to be at least 16 to drive. Money is only a very indirect check of reliability, much less reliable than actually having proof of prior trustworthyness, knowledge or skill. The point seems to be that a person wouldn't invest monthly fees and then commit acts that would risk losing that investment.
  1. If their income is low enough the monthly fees make a real difference to them, maybe, but what about people who see 19 more bucks a month as trivial?
  2. If the prior investment argument is true, then persons wouldn't invest a lot of time leveling a character and then commit acts that would risk losing that investment in time either.
  
  --
  Who is John Cabal?
"Unlimited" eh? by tomzyk · 2009-06-10 02:32 · Score: 1

Maybe it's just too early in the morning, but am I really reading this correctly off of that one hyperlink in the /. article summary?

Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited
Guts: use them or lose them in DDO Unlimited. Get unlimited combat, unlimited adventure, and unlimited fun without a credit card or a subscription when DDO Unlimited launches later this summer.
- Level cap raised to the natural limit of 20
- ...
Unlimited... with a HIGHER limit!!!

--
Karma: NaN
1. Re:"Unlimited" eh? by moorewr · 2009-06-10 08:34 · Score: 1
  
  Go drink some more coffee.
I would add: by aepervius · 2009-06-10 02:45 · Score: 1

you cannot be really griefed on most WOW server, as you have to MAKE yourself pvp enabled to be griefed. The rest of the idiot you can just add to your ignore list. You cannot be ganked as a player if you have not made yourself pvp in wow and the server setting are normal.

--
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
PvPer's are quick to defend by Phrogman · 2009-06-10 02:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

being an asshole to other players. Something about playing PvP seems to bring out the desire to be an anonymous fuckwad towards other people. Probably because there are no consequences, and partially because it grants the illusion of power to the PvPer, even if it is only the power to annoy.
Its a shame too, because I have enjoyed PvP in the past in games where at least some people had a sense of sportsmanship (early DAOC for instance), but that sort of player seems to have disappeared, buried in the mass of total asshats that the hobby throws up like so much putrid trash.
I no longer PvP in any game because I just don't want to be bothered spending my time associating with people whom if I met them in real life and they talked and acted the way they do to me in game, I most likely would kick them in the nuts repeatedly.
It is possible to PvP and not grief, it is possible to PvP and if you win, not Tbag or asshat your enemy, it is possible to lose without whining. If you join a PvP server you know you are facing the worst of online humanity, you can expect conduct that wouldn't be tolerated in grade school by people who don't seem to have passed grade school. At best they are a loathesome pile of shit, obscuring the few decent players I have met and in a lot of cases they aren't even very good.
I think the answer is to stop PvPing. Fuck those guys, if they can't play nice, don't play. Its a waste of time. I enjoy other aspects of games quite happily and always have. I just gave up on PvPing because the quality of people I had to associate with wasn't worth the bother. Plus the gameplay gets kind of stagnant eventually as well.
Queue the PvPers responding to diss me and call me a carebear etc.

--
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
1. Re:PvPer's are quick to defend by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 05:25 · Score: 0
  
  Amusingly, I play Atlantica Online and on the server my Main is on (Mycenae) The Closest I see to 'griefing' is when someone goes "Hey, wanna PK some bots?"
  This is especially interesting when one considers that on the Cross-server tournaments, Mycenae typically has some of the top players.
2. Re:PvPer's are quick to defend by zenasprime · 2009-06-10 05:54 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know where all you folks get this crazy idea that all PvP servers are some chaotic mess of asshattery.... really, that kind of stuff happens so rarely that it's a joke that it's even mentioned anymore. I've been playing on a PvP server since release and "griefing" really is a pass time that hasn't lived up to it's reputation for years for anyone with any experience living on a PvP server.
3. Re:PvPer's are quick to defend by poetmatt · 2009-06-10 06:39 · Score: 1
  
  Okay, lets try this:
  your issue is a moral issue. There is no logic behind it. That is why your entire argument fails.
4. Re:PvPer's are quick to defend by Anonymous Coward · 2009-06-10 06:53 · Score: 0
  
  Stop being a carebear, etc.!
5. Re:PvPer's are quick to defend by thesandtiger · 2009-06-10 07:00 · Score: 1
  
  I PvP on occasion, and it's to have fun, not to make other people miserable. What's fun for me is the need to be vigilant when going somewhere that could have an ambusher. What's fun for me is finding the perfect spot to hang out and wait for unwitting prey to come past to be taken out by a well-aimed shot. What's fun for me is seeing a big battle happening and just wading into the mayhem. What's fun for me is working with a small team to go and take out an objective that is being guarded by the other team. What's fun for me is trying to find a good way to defend something from the enemy I know is about to come in any minute - preparing for a frontal assault, but also keeping an eye out for more sneaky tactics. It's fun to do those things.
  Unfortunately, as you point out, it's pretty hard to find other people who feel the same way - for every one of me, there's a dozen people who just see PvP as a tool with which to annoy other people rather than a fun thing in and of itself. So what I do is I just avoid being a jerk to other people when I'm on the winning side, won't hang out with people who seem to just want to annoy other people rather than have fun with it.
  I've been camped in WoW and I handled it in a way that was fun for me - I went back to my corpse and found a spot that I thought would give me 5 seconds to rez and recover before my camper could reasonably get to me and I either bugged out or tried to learn a new tactic for defeating him. When it has been someone much higher level, I've organized a posse to go after him, which was fun in it's own way and learned from the whole encounter. In fact, I daresay, getting ganked repeatedly by people higher level than me was a great way to get actually *good* at PvP because I had to use every trick in the book to either delay my death or get away (or, rarely, actually beat someone 10+ levels higher than me).
  Maybe it's just my mindset, but I just don't get upset - it always just seems like an opportunity to learn how to handle a difficult situation.
  
  --
  Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
I'm reading about WoW PvP... by emanem · 2009-06-10 04:00 · Score: 1

And I must say, after 4 years of playing WoW, mainly pvping (got 2 chars at rank 11 and in TBC always rates ~2000 in arena) I just played at SF4 on PS3 and acutally I found a proper PvP game.
When you can only blame yourself (or the pad - but I'm getting a proper pad) if you lose and not the luck or the FOTM combo (Flavor Of The Month), and the game is actually balanced, plus it does not require grinding, well... I think my experience with WoW and mainly all MMORPGS is definitely suspended, not to say over...
Cheers
Ps. I 've read so many comments about WoW PvP, so I urged to post one...
1. Re:I'm reading about WoW PvP... by Prien715 · 2009-06-10 04:31 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I'm right there with you. I love PvP for the most part. I play everything from Chess to Magic the Gathering to Warcraft 3 to Left 4 Dead to Super Smash Bros.
  I played a couple months a friend told me PvP in WoW was amazing, so I started a character, leveled 'em to 80. Then I found out the PvP is terrible.
  The game is laggy, especially in large matches, and you need addons just for the most basic of functionality (e.g. list of raid member with health) are provided by addons. Instanced PvP is slightly better though, but even there, the gameplay just seems to lack the sophistication of other PvP games.
  Another real problem is scale. A game with numbers flying around the screen just doesn't scale well to 25 player raids (TF2 is quite playable with 32 people, WoW (IMHO) is just not). But WoW does it anyway. Wintergrasp is by far the worst offender.
  Glad to hear I'm not the only one;)
  
  --
  -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
2. Re:I'm reading about WoW PvP... by emanem · 2009-06-10 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  Imho the big issue relies to 3 factors:
  
  1) The luck factor. If you strike 4 crit in a row excellent, 4 white hit in a row, suck
  2) The Flavor Of The Month factor
  3) The you must organize to have -maybe- fun in arena
  4) The you have to grind to get anything, otherwise BGs would be dead
  But most of all:
  *5 pts combo*) The imbalance factor... PvP is not balanced at all...
  SF4:
  a) Balanced
  b) You are responsible for the char you play
  c) No random factor
  d) Win or lose is up to you only.
  Sorry Blizzard but WoW has definitely bombed now...(again I've played PvP for 4 yrs basically)...
  Cheers,
I'm actually excited... by n00btastic · 2009-06-10 04:50 · Score: 1

They will let me earn points to spend in the store? I won't actually be penalized for not having any money? I understand that all of you 'hard core' gamers are upset that you will have to deal with all the kids, but as a college student I really only play video games every once in awhile anyway. I have tried and hated most of those 'free' MMO's, and am not willing to sell my soul to the gods of Blizzard. I hope this game is everything it says it is, and if so, I will click on whatever ads they ask. -n00b
Need Mac client by chrish · 2009-06-10 05:12 · Score: 1

I'd try it again (played a bit during beta) if there was a Mac client.

--
- chrish
If you are 23 and worried about 15 bucks then you by SmallFurryCreature · 2009-06-10 05:48 · Score: 1

So, you are 23 and making an issu about 15 dollars, worried that you might not get your moneys worth.
Some of us have jobs. 15 bucks is nothing, barely a movie and that lasts what 2 hours?
By all means, keep up the argument that a monthly fee is to expensive, but accept the label "cheapo" that comes with it.
Personally, I would have preffered is some games had special servers with say a 50 euro monthly fee and 200 euro deposit. The extra money could go to extra support and the deposit is lost if you are banned. Would clean the servers up, get rid of any gold farmers and make small games a lot more viable with a core userbase. Why does every MMO out there have to chase the lowest common denominator.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
worthless time by whistlingtony · 2009-06-10 07:03 · Score: 1

:D As an ex WoW player who's down 40 pounds and can now speak a little spanish and play the guitar, I'd say that ANY time spent on WoW is worthless..... :D
Re:If you are 23 and worried about 15 bucks then y by Luc1fel · 2009-06-10 09:35 · Score: 0

Some of us are in college with jobs every now and then. I see that you have the free time to play as much as you want, but I've got about 3-4 hours a week (during midterms and finals no free time at all) for gaming. Paying 15 bucks a month to play 15-20 hours on average per month is stupid.

Excuse me for being a student to busy to have a steady income and for treading under the shadow of hard-working folk such as you. May my "cheapo" insolence be excused.
Great move :) by Michael101 · 2009-06-19 14:54 · Score: 1

This would be big for them, It would make them more popular, since every body is looking for something free. Its a no brainer really. Free games = more traffic which in turns = more advertising dollars :)