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G.M. Opens Its Own Battery Research Laboratory
Al writes "Bankrupt automaker G.M. has taken a significant step towards reinventing itself by opening a battery laboratory in Michigan on a site that once churned out internal combustion engines. The new facility lets G.M. engineers simulate all kinds of conditions to determine how long batteries will last once they're inside its vehicles. Battery packs are charged and discharged while being subjected to high and low temperatures as well as extremes of humidity. Engineers can also simulate different altitudes by placing the packs in barometric chambers. The facility has also been designed so that engineers located in New York and Germany and at the University of Michigan can perform experiments remotely. Despite its financial troubles, G.M. has committed to producing the Volt and is already working on second- and third-generation battery technology at the new lab."
Yeah, they're back on the bleeding edge!
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Bankrupt automaker G.M. has taken a significant step towards reinventing itself by opening a battery laboratory in Michigan
I've never been a fan of smilies or sarcasm symbols but for the first time I feel I see the need for them. This was joke, right?
...I'd own part of a battery research laboratory!
I'd like to make a safe bet that this research lab is going to be used exclusively to butter up Congress with tours for more bailout money.
Cobasys
GM was so far ahead of everyone else with the EV1. Sure it was a money loser, but had they kept that line of cars around in limited production they could have worked out all sorts of problems with mass producing electric cars and they would have owned all the patents and know how in the area for 20 years. Instead, they killed the program, dumped all the IP they gained from it and went back to building SUV's and pickup trucks.
Insane.
flying cars that fold up into suit-cases. Seriously though it's good to see this happening, even if it took a bankrupcy to wake them up.
China makes lithium batteries that can release large amounts of energy all at once...the fireballs are spectacular.
This lab has been there for some time.
I saw it on PBS comparing the old EV1 battery to the new Volt pack.
Apparently it was recorded in 2005.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1046766/
Obama will Eruo Jr. into the ground.
How can GM afford such an expensive, long-term research facility? Oh, that's right: the money they saved by stiffing workers, pensioners, and their families in bankruptcy.
Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
This is what they came up with! http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2009/05/31/Obama-GM-plan-is-viable/UPI-17921243823450/
Another waste of resources for the inept fools at GM.
Electric cars are not viable. If we start to charge vehicles off the national grid, electricity will almost certainly loose its tax exempt status.
Prices would definitely rise to the point where electricity would become more expensive than hydrocarbon alternatives are projected to be in the future.
Also, generating capacity is already under pressure, batteries can not hold sufficient charge to travel useful distances (and there is little hope of significantly improving power density of current battery technologies).
Additionally, many new types of battery use scarce, expensive, and polluting to produce heavy metals, have massive total lifecycle production and disposal costs, and add massively to vehicle weight - particularly when combined with an auxiliary engine (eg. in a hybrid). They also pose thermal management problems, vehicle weight distribution problems, packaging problems, add substantial weight, and suffer from shorter than vehicle lifespan (ie. will need replaced within course of the life of the vehicle).
Anyone with no vested interests in electric cars can mock this foolish folly.
Ever wonder why GM is bankrupt? The inability to comprehend technical facts. American cars have always been terrible. Even Eastern Bloc countries produced better quality vehicles, albeit with considerably less character, and interior refinement.
Batteries are a dirty, nasty hard to recycle oldschool technology that dies after a few 100 charges, or maybe a few thousand if you're lucky. More research into ultracaps is needed - using better nano-tech to increase the surface area, testing of ultracapacitor-based systems and that sort of thing.
So is this a GM project or a US Government project? Will other auto manufacturers such as Ford be able to use the results of this research without paying an exorbitant licensing fee?
The blend of government and private business is going to cause problems.
Who cares.. until they are no longer owned by the Federal Government and the UAW - I won't be buying anything from them.
The same goes for GE as it tries to use it's MSNBC network to convince the world to put in public policies that will benefit GEs bottom line.
E.g Cap and Trade, Single Payer Nationalized Healthcare, etc.
GM's new battery technology could be quite shocking.
I can't remember the last time I forgot anything.
I'm not seeing how this story or any other story about GM and their "Volt" is noteworthy. The Volt is not a marvel of engineering. It's not innovative. It's the same crappy "hybrid" concept that every other auto maker has tried to push. The Volt only goes 40 miles on a charge before rolling over to the gas engine. And at the nearly $40,000 price point, why bother buying it? If you spent a bit more money, you can buy a Tesla Model S, priced at about $50,000 (assuming you can get the rebate). The Model S doesn't even have a gasoline engine, goes over 7 times farther than the Volt on a single charge, can go from 0 to 60 in under 6 seconds, and looks a hell of a lot better than the Volt IMO.
If GM uses this new laboratory to produce cars with no gasoline engine (all electric), I'm on board. But if they use it to push this ridiculous Volt and other similar hybrids onto the market, it'll be just another waste of our taxpayer dollars.
Read up on the Toyota RAV4EV electric vehicle first sold in the US in 1997. It was based on the RAV4 body and could travel 120 miles per charge.
The RAV4EV was sold direct to consumers in 2002 in California and cost $33,000 after rebates.
The car was discontinued when Chevron gained rights to NiMH battery patents and forced Toyota to stop producing them for their cars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rav4ev
I would think that any company that is or headed toward bankruptcy would scale back on some of its R&D. I understand you need some to stay competitive, but I would think that GM would use its time and money better by initially refocusing itself,its product line, cutting costs, etc. Once they have all that under control, then they could research newer technologies.
I think that GM would do themselves a favor by focusing on only two main goals. Improve reliability and make more efficient combustion engines. I know that I personally will not buy a GM because of my own experience with a GM product[1]. They have the right idea here with reducing fuel costs by having the battery lab, but that is not their expertise. Combustion engines are their expertise, so why go into a divergent field? It is too risky for a company that is already on the edge of going out of business. In particular, I mention these two topics since it seems that is the main reason people buy Hondas for example.
[1] The one year that I owned it (used with 44k miles when purchased) I had to take it to the shop 3 times to be fixed, each for different reasons (once an oxygen sensor, the next because of strange interlock between the gear shifter and pulling the key out of the ignition, and finally the transmission). This was only in 2004, btw.
Government Motors is investing in itself
I wonder if they are eligible for any tax credits.
The Toyota RAV4 EV was an electric vehicle with about an 80 to 120 mile range.
Toyota stopped producing them after a combination of these two things happened:
1) Selling the EV's no longer helped Toyota meet it's U.S. CARB averages
and
2) Chevron aquired the patent for the NiMH battery technology and sued Toyata and Panasonic winning $30 million.
Toyota sold less than 1600 of them, so it was not profitable, but damn, they had a 120 mile range vehicle that did hwy speeds in 1997.
Very true... Our last $800 billion only bought us a bunch of dead Arabs.
before the current melt down happens. These things can take a few year to get going.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yes, IF. On the other hand, maybe GM will produce mediocre batteries, but will use its government subsidy to undercut and crush a great battery-producing startup. Or maybe batteries are a dead end, and fuel cells are the answer, but GM/Congress are not astute enough to figure it out.
Why are we betting on a proven loser? Why not just create an X-Prize for energy storage and let the best company win?
Fixed that for you...
"Sure is nice that you spent your money on SUVs for the last eight years, that they didn't have any short term financial incentive to do research like this."
Maybe if they thought a little longer term and remembered "the energy crisis" from 1973 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis as they were designing their vehicles, people would want to buy them now.
Or maybe if GM hadn't discontinued the EV1 in 199 and then taken all the EV1's and crushed them in 2003 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1, they'd have something to sell that people want to buy.
Or maybe if instead of discontinuing them in 2001, they still sold Suzuki G10 XFi engine based Chevy Sprints / Geo Metros which got 51MPG highway, 43 MPg city, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Cultus, they'd have non-hybrid cars that exceeded the new CAFE standards already.
GM had the products and manufacturing capability for success in the current economy, but they squandered it all on short term thinking, like investments in GMAC (which got about 7% of last Novembers TARP bailout money after declaring itself a bank, or $5 billion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMAC).
-- Terry
Now actually take it in a positive direction for once.
Many companies have these testing facilities for green sources of energy. How about you do something novel for once.
Make the battery discharging a lot more real world and practicle. Have them discharge to the power grid.
Have it help the plant at least by powering some lights or machines when you discharge the energy instead of creating waste heat in simple electrically resistive or mechanical resistance dummy loads.
Rant/ /Rant
Show us that you can actually think on your own in front of the others and you'll get some respect. Or keep following the pack in the back and get left behind for dead. It's the little decisions that got you here, the ones that unnervingly followed the most greedy and predictable paths that lead to the american people finally being forced to give your company money. Not for a product that was better or a service that they chose over others. You got the money because we hate seeing our symbols fail. The ones that are supposed to prove that America can produce the best because of our market and our freedoms. So instead of seeing it fail, we nail the coffin closed ourselves by proving that if a business can't earn the market share, the government will buy 60% and keep it alive rather than admit that it has failed.
) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
The Volt is a pure electric vehicle. The only means of propulsion is via the electric motor. The gasoline engine is actually an electric generator, that runs at a single, highly-efficient RPM, and only runs when the battery runs low. With a hybrid, you WILL use the gasoline engine once you reach a certain speed (which varies by model). With the Volt, you may never use the gasoline engine at all, if you drive 40 miles or less, and you will recharge that battery at home from the grid.
The big attraction of the 40 miles is that 80% or more of the population of the U.S. commute that far or less for their workday. Most of those folks will not use the gasoline engine during normal use. BUT, the generator is there to extend the range of the vehicle whenever necessary.
They are going to try to reinvent the wheel. Why not just got after best of breed? Thats what Fisker is doing when he partnered with Quantum Technologies on the Fisker Karma. Quantum Technologies is already partnered with GM on other projects. GM already owns a small stake in the company. If they dont act fast Fisker will take off and so will their chances of getting QTWW at bargain basement prices. But even the new GM is to big and will move way to slowly and will miss the boat again. In the meantime QTWW should skyrocket in the next few months as the Karma debut gets closer and new picks up on it.
I have bought GM cars since my first. I will not buy a car from the new CGM ( Communist Government Motors ).
Point of the X-prize is not in the money given out to the winner. Money is a nice bonus, and a short term incentive but...
Actual prize is in the credentials and the publicity that the winner would receive.
Credentials from a body of experts certifying that your invention works and is a solid investment, and the publicity surrounding the prize makes certain that your future investors hear about you.
Both of those work in any case. Batteries, space, cupcakes...
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
And they sold it to Exxon Mobil, who buried it and laughed all the way back to their oilfields.
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
I have a right wing web site and find that Republican condemnation of the GM bailout is self serving and utterly hypocritical.
1) Northern manufacturing states are being hammered by the effects of free trade. Red states, primarily agricultural, are utterly protectionist. Farmers have gotten at least 300 billion dollars in bailouts during the course of the Bush administration alone, and perhaps near a trillion dollars in bailouts over the last few years, through direct federal subsidies, and on top of that the USA is famously good at using "food safety and plant safety" as excuses to keep our foreign produce.
2) Red state Republicans constantly complain about Amtrak in the Northeast, but when do we hear so much as a peep about ending the various regulations that in effect, demand that the post office deliver, highways are paved to, phone and electric service to low population density areas. All of that infrastructure, is, in essence, an enormous subsidy on living in the middle of nowhere.
3) Layoff some of the bankrupt blue states. We have too many right wingers complaining about California, New Jersey and other blue states with severe budget problems... but keep in mind that those states are paying far more out in Federal taxes than they receive in federal aid. California and New Jersey can't pay their bills because they support the likes of Mississippi, South Carolina, Iowa and more.
4) I'm researching SSI disability claims per capita by state. I think everyone knows that SSI disability is just rampant with fraud and so I think we could use it as a barometer as to who the laziest workers really are. Whose going to come out as lazier, blue or red state? By the way, if anyone's got a good link on this, let me know...
Bottom line is, red states are first in the welfare trough and are heavily subsidized. If you are going to talk about fleecing the taxpayers, you'd better not be doing it yourself! Free trade of the sort red states never have bothered to practice for themselves did GM in far more than any union conspiracy did, and bad management only made the problems worse. Red states bitching about GM is like bitching about someone stealing too many pennies from the give a penny take a penny after you've shot the clerk in the head and looted the register.
Maybe I'm just a RhINO Republican, a Nationalist Yankee in a liberal court, but it seems like my redneck party comrades down south need to get their own shit together and quit dragging the rest of the country down with it.
This is my sig.
When you buy your EV car, you don't OWN the battery, you lease it for a small periodic fee. GM would have to make it so these batteries can easily be removed and new ones replaced. Not unlike a simple docking system. You pull into a participating "gas" station, now eventually could be called a "Battery Replacement" station. A motorist pulls into station, pays a small and reasonable "battery replacement" fee, a new one is popped in, and away they go. The dead battery is then placed on a charger, powered by wind, Sun, or even the Grid.
Station owners would have to arrange for even distribution of batteries throughout the network of Charging stations. Look at http://betterplace.com for details on an outfit already doing this, who already has a head start, and lots of money to work with.
Car makers and Battery pack makers have to come up with a STANDARD docking system so ALL car makers can use the same configuration.
GM now leases these batteries to the car owner, and also to the charging stations. GM would also have to setup a battery reclamation service to take back used batteries, renovate them (if possible) or dispose of them in a clean environmental way.
Not only that, but enterprising individuals can also build coin operated charging stations, place them in rest areas, street parking, company parking lots, or anyplace where people need to park their cars. They park their car, go to a credit card or coin machine, pick the space (or charge station number), pay and plug in.
We need to start building up our infrastructure, and phat cat investors should start investing in small enterprising individuals to start building them. Engineering wise, they are simple to build. Power enters in through a metal conduit, a coin or credit operated switch is then used to power an outlet. Parker comes in, plops in about $3 for 3 hours of charging time, does their shopping, and comes back to a fully charged "Volt" or whatever they plan to drive.
Someone needs to tell GM about this idea, and get them to start thinking of helping build our renewable energy economy.
John
The EV1 was basically a limited production prototype. Nobody makes a profit on prototypes. Since they sold their patents to Texaco/Chevron who won't allow anyone to produce a NIMH battery large enough to power a car, we'll never know if they could have been profitable.
But keep in mind that there are cars running around powered by lead-acid batteries, and HIMH batteries are much lighter and efficient, while being much much cheaper than lithium-ion and other tech being pursued today. And Texaco was concerned enough to buy the patent. I'd guess that GM could have made a cost effective vehicle eventually, and it sure looks like Texaco thought so, since they won't let anyone even try.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Dear God if they make batteries like they made cars you'll get a nice looking battery with lousy battery life and replacing a screw on the battery will run you $40 buck but you'll have to take it to the dealer to reset the Op Codes indicating you replaced the screw...
I can see it now, swap a batttery? Sorry $50 buck to plug in the Bear unit to reset the battery ID. No you can't take it to your local garage, battery codes are dealer only....
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
There are ppl who know/remember that GM back in the 90' teamed up with the oil companies (which paid GM a lotta money) and eagerly downplayed the value and possibilities of the electric cars, lobbied to kill them and they succeeded. It turns out in the long run GM was playing against its own interests - the oil companies it teamed up with are doing fine and GM is bankrupt. So eat what you deserve GM, short term profit and greed cost ya! Maybe it's time to put customers first.
All they need to do is go to all the warehouses that have the battery/capacitor prototypes from the companies and individuals that they boughtout and shut down in an effort to keep all the $$'s rolling in from big oil. They can dust off all that research and already be ahead by 5 or 10 years.
There are too many "companies" involved in the infrastructure associated with all the potential fuel issues.
There won't be mass produced inexpensive fast/easy/cheap to charge cars for 20 years or more.
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