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Middle-School Strip Search Ruled Unconstitutional

yuna49 writes "The US Supreme Court today ruled 8-1 that the strip search of a 13-year-old girl by officials in an Arizona middle school was unconstitutional. However, by a vote of 7-2, the Court also ruled that the individual school officials could not be held personally liable. A suit for damages against the school district itself is still going forward. We discussed this case at length back in March when the Court decided to hear the case on appeal."

101 of 528 comments (clear)

  1. This is America by MrMista_B · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is America, where children are the Enemy.

    1. Re:This is America by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is America, where children are the Enemy.

      Which is odd, because last week I thought we were destroying civil liberties to save them. I do wish the government would make up its mind. Should we be building more private prisons to hold them cheaply, or should we be cherishing them and making sure they don't see Janet Jackson's nipple?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:This is America by SoupGuru · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No no, this is America where we have to ruin a child's life in order to prevent them from ruining their life. I suggest 5-10 years of jail for sexting!

      --
      What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    3. Re:This is America by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

      or should we be cherishing them and making sure they don't see Janet Jackson's nipple?

      Well at least we now have a Supreme Court decision that stops overzealous administrators and staff from seeing children's nipples in search of non-existent over-the-count drugs. Now, if only the administrators were actually held liable for their stupid decisions.

    4. Re:This is America by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is America, where children are the Enemy.

      If you've ever had to be responsible for a bunch of kids, you would understand.

      Now, I don't agree with strip searching kids, especially for something stupid like Advil or something. However, the second you state that school officials are not allowed to check your underwear, that's where everything starts getting hidden. Unfortunately, the only way to keep this from being abused and still having some effectiveness would be to publicly allow this type of search, but ban it privately.

      It seems that the judge agrees with me. From TFA:

      Had Savana been suspected of having illegal drugs that could have posed a far greater danger to herself and other students, the strip search, too, might have been justified, the majority said, in an opinion by Justice David H. Souter.

      I also hope that the student that gave the "tip" that this poor girl had pills in her underwear gets an ass-whoopin severe enough to make her grandkids wince when sitting down!

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    5. Re:This is America by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now, I don't agree with strip searching kids, especially for something stupid like Advil or something. However, the second you state that school officials are not allowed to check your underwear, that's where everything starts getting hidden. Unfortunately, the only way to keep this from being abused and still having some effectiveness would be to publicly allow this type of search, but ban it privately.

      That's when you call the cops and have it done by professionals who know how to do it properly. Even if my kid was carrying drugs in his or her underwear, I would not want a school administrator doing the search. You think you've got that much evidence, then you pick up the goddamned phone and phone the goddamned cops. If you're a school employee, your job is not to do strip searches, and I hope the kid's lawyers bankrupt the goddamned school. They overstepped their bounds so badly that it's difficult to imagine how they're judgement could have been any worse.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:This is America by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Funny

      The kids can ram it. Join me and my fellow Middle School Deans from across this land as we tell these ungrateful bastards to fuck off. We are applying en masse to the peace corp so we can assist more grateful African children.

      Yes, I guess it will be easier to get a look at girls' chests in countries with flimsy constitutional protections.

      Besides, has anyone ever considered that with a little government money to train my brothers and I in basic medical screening techniques we could be years more advanced in the level of health care delivered to our young people. Decades of pre-teen co-ed athletes have marched through the shower room of my Middle School - that is *DECADES* of young women I could have helped with *MY OWN HANDS* !!

      Yeah, I want you around my kids.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:This is America by KCWaldo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Uhh, Outside of a immediate threat to others what is wrong with calling the parents in to oversee a search of a minor? Personally if I was the girls father the vice principal and nurses would not have heard the end of it.

    8. Re:This is America by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now, I don't agree with strip searching kids, especially for something stupid like Advil or something. However, the second you state that school officials are not allowed to check your underwear, that's where everything starts getting hidden. Unfortunately, the only way to keep this from being abused and still having some effectiveness would be to publicly allow this type of search, but ban it privately.

      That's when you call the cops and have it done by professionals who know how to do it properly. Even if my kid was carrying drugs in his or her underwear, I would not want a school administrator doing the search. You think you've got that much evidence, then you pick up the goddamned phone and phone the goddamned cops. If you're a school employee, your job is not to do strip searches, and I hope the kid's lawyers bankrupt the goddamned school. They overstepped their bounds so badly that it's difficult to imagine how they're judgement could have been any worse.

      Agreed. However, for the sake of argument, consider the following hypothetical:
      You received a credible tip from multiple sources that a girl has... I don't know... cyanide or something stuffed in her panties. So, you place this girl under "observation" to make sure she doesn't ditch anything while you call her parents and the police. The police say they will be there as soon as they can, but it may be two hours or longer. Her parents are at work and won't be coming at all.

      About 20 minutes into the waiting, she claims she has to go to the bathroom. What do you do? Do you forbid her from going to the bathroom or do you send someone in there with her to watch her so she doesn't flush the evidence?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    9. Re:This is America by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uhh, Outside of a immediate threat to others what is wrong with calling the parents in to oversee a search of a minor?

      Personally if I was the girls father the vice principal and nurses would not have heard the end of it.

      I agree, but I don't know what would be worse, getting strip searched by the vice principal or getting strip searched by my vice principal while my mother looks on. (Although, I think having the parent in the next room would be sufficient if that's OK with the accused and the parent.)

      And if I were the parent and nothing was found, there would be hell to pay whether I was called or not!

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    10. Re:This is America by gnick · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, I want you around my kids.

      You're responding to Anonymous Coward.

      Rule #1 of parenting is never leave your kids alone with someone until after they agree to tell you their name.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    11. Re:This is America by ushering05401 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wasn't there some third reich psychologist who came to America during Paperclip and was known for espousing that the only way to govern a nation was to make the majority of the citizens your enemy? Or prevent them from being able to get through life without breaking the law at some point or something?

      I can't find a link - but your comment reminded me of this.

    12. Re:This is America by iamhigh · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, unlike your argument/hypothetical situation, a 13 year old can hold (their) water.

      --
      No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
    13. Re:This is America by BlackSabbath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > However, the second you state that school officials are not allowed to check your underwear, that's where everything starts getting hidden

      In case you didn't realise just how bad that sounds I've taken the liberty of rephrasing it for you:

      "However, the second you state that school officials are not allowed to check your vagina or anus, that's where everything starts getting hidden."

      You see how people might have a problem with that? "School-issue speculums" just doesn't have a comforting ring about it.

    14. Re:This is America by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Neither. You watch her surreptitiously until the police or the parents get there. You do not do anything to tip her off to the fact that she is being watched..

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    15. Re:This is America by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

      KIng James Vible?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    16. Re:This is America by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Hey, at least that time they were actually looking for drugs.

      Awhile back in a suburb of San Diego, an overzealous administrator had the good idea to round up all of the girls at the dance and check their panties so that the filthy whores wearing thongs(or less) could be sent home to change.

      And about that, from the link:

      Garvik's sophomore daughter was forced to go home and change before she could enter the dance, although thongs are not barred in the school dress code. The code states that undergarments, including "boxers, tank-top undershirts or underwear" should not be exposed.

      Some people with authority(especially those in certain government agencies, but I digress) seem to make up the rules as they go along. That's what makes them dangerous.

    17. Re:This is America by fyrewulff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is school districts think they are god and above the law. They get even more power hungry than the most power hungry cop, and much less accountable.

      For instance, a year or two back, a girl claimed she was sexually assaulted in the stairway of a school.

      What did the school do?

      Call the cops?

      No.

      Call the parents?

      No.

      They sent a teacher to go 'investigate' the stairway. Instead of you know, calling the cops, who are trained in questioning and scene investigation, they send a portly tenured person down to go contaminate the scene because they didn't know what the hell they were doing.

      This is just a lighter one of their instances of pulling that shit. They always like to try and bury things before they get outside the school or to the press, and often tried to intimidate kids into not talking about something.

      --
      "We need to get over this notion, that, for Apple to win... Microsoft must lose." - Steve Jobs, 1997
    18. Re:This is America by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Strange, isn't it? The people I've met there are reasonable.

      Maybe...but don't forget about the broomstick incident, noose incident, and hacking incident aside from the aforementioned underwear check.

      But maybe I'm just biased, my spoiled bitchy ex also attended Rancho Bernardo High school. To clarify, the school is in a very well-off part of San diego, not in some Santee or Barrio Logan ghetto!

    19. Re:This is America by bretticus · · Score: 2, Informative

      King James Version

    20. Re:This is America by supernova_hq · · Score: 3, Informative

      1) adult goes in the bathroom and flushes ALL the toilets
      2) 2 adults (never put a single adult with a child or you get accusations) go in the bathroom with the child
      3) child goes in the stall ALONE, adults wait outside the stall
      4) child is NOT allowed to flush
      5) adult checks toilet after child has used it

      It's not that hard people. As long as they don't flush (which is EASY to hear) and you watch them wash their hands (no problem there), you are good. If anyone suspects something was left in the bathroom it is easy to check.

    21. Re:This is America by BZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did you read the supreme court decision on the liability thing? It basically comes down to "precedent and legislation here was so confused, that even the Federal appeals court decided incorrectly; there was no way the administrators could have been expected to know whether their actions were constitutional."

      Which is sad, but true. I'd have a much easier time claiming the administrators should be liable if every single court in the chain had found against them. But if as it is, I agree the decision was stupid, but non-obviously so. At least to a lot of people. Which once again is very said.

    22. Re:This is America by supernova_hq · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You would seriously allow a school official (or anyone below a police officer) to strip search your child in the same room or even the next room?!? What the hell is wrong with you?

      99 percent of parents I know would physically stop any such action from occurring, and I don't blame them at all!

    23. Re:This is America by networkBoy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm a parent of a little girl.
      I must say that if my child came home and reported either of these incidents I would likely be in police custody as a result.

      Now, I personally don't think girls of that age should be wearing g-strings and thongs, but that simply means I police *my* kid. Not other people's kids. Especially if it's not against the rules to begin with. I agree with the "no showing underwear" rule, much like I agree with the "no drugs, and we can search your personal possessions while you are on campus" rules. What I can't fathom is the thought of we'll lift your skirt and strip off you clothes even if we don't have *damn good* evidence or suspicion.

      Take this case:
      Girl accused of having motrin-400's and they want to find out if she has any more. Search locker, pockets, backpack, purse, STOP! You're done. Seriously, it's Motrin, not crank. And the "informant" is another student who was just busted and wants to shift the blame.

      Vs.

      Teacher sees dope deal go down, pulls both students in. Weed/speed/whatever is "missing" and no sign it was dropped...
      now you get in the territory of _maybe_ getting to a more intimate search.

      as it is now as a parent I would press sex offense charges in both cases, sue the pants off the school district, picket the school with the names of the offenders and what they did, and blanket the district with fliers about what happened...

      Each incident like this makes me realize that things have only gone downhill since I was in school.

      [/rant]
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    24. Re:This is America by networkBoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      should qualify the sex offense comment:
      referring to the (now) GP post and main thread topic, not the drug deal got caught. That I would push for a letter of reprimand from the district...

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    25. Re:This is America by idontgno · · Score: 2, Funny

      "School-issue speculums" just doesn't have a comforting ring about it.

      But does sound AWESOME for the name of a punk rock band.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    26. Re:This is America by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Something to consider also is that if it's THAT FREAKIN SERIOUS then you don't let a teacher deal with it, you call the police and let THEM deal with it. That's why we HAVE police to begin with, they know how to handle issues with that kind of gravity.

      Teachers deal with school related issues, anything that's threatening life or limb gets sent to the police. The police deal with it, and then it goes to the JUVENILE justice system.

      Then again not all cops are as awesome as the one's that have saved my ass from abusive and sometimes outright psychotic school administrators, but if a cop does something this absolutely fuck-dumb then there's already established means of dealing with it.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    27. Re:This is America by bretticus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sure, if you can read Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and probably some other languages. Those who can't have to have an English translation, of which there are several versions. (It's not my holy book btw)

    28. Re:This is America by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As long as they don't flush (which is EASY to hear)

      .. but not very easy to reverse.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    29. Re:This is America by easyTree · · Score: 2, Informative

      Some people with authority(especially those in certain government agencies, but I digress) seem to make up the rules as they go along. That's what makes them dangerous.

      I'd argue that it's the fact that people give too much attention to authority and blindly do whatever they're told to do. How difficult is it to scream 'get out of my pants you paedophile!' ?

      It's everyone's duty to ensure that a correct balance of power is maintained. Those in 'authority' need to be challenged whenever they overstep the bounds of that authority.

      This applies to you too Mr 65lb weakling with a 350lb wife. The phrase "I need to eat too!" can be useful on occasion. (I'm prolly gonna get modded into oblivion for this but what the heck? - excellent karma is getting old :)

    30. Re:This is America by sexconker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wait, what?

      The supreme court fucking said that they can't be held liable because they didn't know the law?

      WHEN THE FUCK WAS IGNORANCE OF THE LAW EVER AN EXCUSE FOR BREAKING IT?

    31. Re:This is America by BZ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not quite. The supreme court said they can't be held liable because _no_one_ knew the law. As in, it was impossible to know it, given what was actually written down.

      Similarly, a prosecutor who filed suit against someone based on a law the legislature passed would presumably not be held liable if the law is then challenged and found unconstitutional. Of course if he then continues to bring such suits, things would be different, just as here things would be different for future behavior akin to that of these school administrators.

      Shouting cliches doesn't change the fact that this situation (which I, again, think was highly unfortunate behavior on the part of the school administration in the ethical, not just legal, sense) is not the same as "ignorance of the law".

    32. Re:This is America by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Teacher sees dope deal go down, pulls both students in. Weed/speed/whatever is "missing" and no sign it was dropped... now you get in the territory of _maybe_ getting to a more intimate search.

      At which point the cops are called. School adminstrators never have the right to strip search kids. Jesus christ...

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    33. Re:This is America by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      there was no way the administrators could have been expected to know whether their actions were constitutional.

      The problem with this though is that the Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure specifically states:
      "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

      If admin in a US public school does not understand that then they should never have graduated.

      Falcon

    34. Re:This is America by hawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be a civil rights violation, the official doesn't have to have been wrong, but the act must have been clearly illegal. This is because off the difference between simply being wrong, and *willfully* using the power of the state to take away people's rights.

      When an issue is legally "up in the air," officials would otherwise be in "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations.

      hawk, esq.

    35. Re:This is America by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Funny

      Rule #1 of parenting is never leave your kids alone with someone until after they agree to tell you their name.

      The police department has the same rule about giving recruits guns.

      Fucking fascists.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    36. Re:This is America by lgw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bah, we threw that old thing out for drunk driving checkpoints. We violate it every single time anyone flys commercially. We violate it every time anyone enters a public government building. We especially violate it when you show up for legally required jury duty, and are unconstitutionally searched before being allowed to comply with the summons.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    37. Re:This is America by Buelldozer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There may have been some question of Constitutionality but there was NEVER any question about appropriateness, common sense, good taste, or forward thinking.

    38. Re:This is America by morari · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd argue that it's the fact that people give too much attention to authority and blindly do whatever they're told to do. How difficult is it to scream 'get out of my pants you paedophile!' ?

      It's everyone's duty to ensure that a correct balance of power is maintained. Those in 'authority' need to be challenged whenever they overstep the bounds of that authority.

      That was my thought exactly. Why did this girl let herself be put in that position? It's because schools, much like society as a whole, is simply in place to turn people into sheep. That doesn't by any means make it the victim's "fault" that this happened, but it sure made the occurrence a lot easier and likely.

      --
      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
    39. Re:This is America by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 2, Funny

      We should ban gum. You never know what stuff they're mixing in before they bring it on campus! ~

    40. Re:This is America by aaandre · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's very simple, parent should be present at the search.

    41. Re:This is America by Toonol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      She was 13 years old. Her principle, her nurse, were all telling her to do something. She was nervous, accused of a wrongdoing she didn't commit. Just because she went along doesn't mean she was a SHEEP, it means she is HUMAN.

      The fact that the authorities naturally have that sort of psychological power over children is one of the reasons abusing that authority is so wrong, and should be punished severely.

    42. Re:This is America by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Funny

      as it is now as a parent I would press sex offense charges in both cases, sue the pants off the school district...

      Then you're no better than they are! Two wrongs don't make a right; just because they saw your daughter's unmentionables doesn't mean you get to see theirs...

    43. Re:This is America by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      school teachers aren't police, and shouldn't even imagine they have the authority to perform a strip search. if they think the kid has shoved it up his ass - call the cops and get them to do it. that should be the end of this story. it makes me fearful for when i have children, because if i have a child and they are subjected to anything like this i'd probably do something drastic.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    44. Re:This is America by mhajicek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "now you get in the territory of _maybe_ getting to a more intimate search." Absolutely not. At this point you have exceeded the realm of school discipline and should call the REAL authorities to handle the situation. What's next, school staff conducting criminal investigations? I don't care who you think you are, but you're not getting into my kids underpants unless you're an officer of the law with a warrant in hand.

    45. Re:This is America by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Adults. Not children. At 13 she is not capable of reliably determining where the authority of those running the school stops. That's one of the many definitions of being a child.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    46. Re:This is America by BZ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can be convicted of doing something so obviously and totally morally wrong that any reasonable person would have thought it wrong even though a duly constituted authority orderered you to do it.

      Even if you accept the Nuremberg principles (and let's face it; they're somewhat specious from a strict legal point of view), that leaves a lot of weasel room. In particular the words "obviously" and "reasonable"....

      I do agree with the main part of what you're saying: that if you take the Nuremberg principles to their obvious limit then anyone is liable for anything anytime as soon as someone decides (post facto, note!) that something you did was "wrong", even though legal at the time when you did it. That's what makes the Nuremberg principles pretty questionable to me.

      I do think the supremes got it wrong by not prohibiting this sort of behavior on a more blanket way, for what it's worth, and especially for saying it would be ok if the circumstances were just a bit different. But given the progress of this case so far, and the number of "reasonable" people who seemed to think that all was OK with the school official's behavior, I think their liability decision was the right one, sadly. It doesn't make me _happy_, but neither would the decision the other way, honestly.

      Of course IANAL, etc. If you are and if there are relevant legal principles I'm missing here I'd like to know.

    47. Re:This is America by ushering05401 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mods, skip this post as it has nothing to do with the story, I just want to help easyTree out ;)

      I was actually posting about this here because I was hoping that someone more current in conspiracy research could remind me of some missing parts of my recollection.

      It has been years, but I remember more as I think about this. I can tell you where to look, but I am no longer interested enough to dig through all the FOIA paperwork - which is where I saw just enough substantiating evidence to pique my interest in some otherwise totally unsupported assertions that a guy I knew made.

      Some search terms for further research are 'artichoke' 'bluebird' and 'mkultra' - the last of which I would expect most people to recognize. These were all American 'human factor' experiments which were fascinating to my adolescent mind back when I heard about them in the late eighties/early nineties.

      My 'source' - if we can call him that - told me that the 'psychological nature' (his words, not mine) of the war on drugs made him suspect a nazi psychologist's students were taking control of America.

      Unfortunately, my source was a blow-hard conspiracy theorist, and I couldn't find out anything about the psychologist he cited beyond what was published in an amateur conspiracy rag.

      I should note here that I suspected my source of being the author of the amateur piece simply due to the scarcity of any corroborating evidence for his outlandish claims about the expansion of mkultra to the general populace through the war on drugs.

      Then, a number of years later I saw a documentary that was on French Canadian tv that made reference to some newly released documents that connected human factor experiments performed in a Montreal(?) sanitarium to the American human factor experiments.

      Furthermore, and I don't recall the original source for this - it may have been the documentary - former third reich scientists who could not work in the US because of relations to Nuremburg figures were running the Canadian project directly or advising on site in some manner.

      IIRC the experiments were later acknowledged both by Canada and by Bill Clinton and some sort of reparation was either made or being publicly sought by survivors of the experiments.

      At some point during all of this I saw this nazi referenced definitively with relation to the design of post-war Allied human factor research. Unfortunately, I used to read a lot of FOIA stuff and I think that is where you are going to have to go for more.

      Anyhow, I now had some substantiation that my source had somehow gotten hold of at least a thread of truth about the presence of a nazi scientist who had maintained a very low profile.

      That is flimsy support for the detailed charges that had been made, though, and you can search other scientists from that period in America to find plenty of amateur conspiracy fluff supported by equally flimsy evidence.

      J.W.Parsons is one example. He supposedly was paying an insider to put aborted fetuses around the Los Alamos testing grounds to see if they would reanimate.. and he founded JPL. If you are not American I would remind you that this is the time period of Roswell/the birth of American UFO mania and is ripe for exploitation by amateur conspiracy theorists - so it is not unusual to find this type of conspiracy from this time period.

      Finally, this is where everything verifiable ends and we are left only with the word of a nut about the way in which mkultra was being applied to the American populace. ... AND HERE IT IS! :

      Our anonymous nazi scientist had developed a new take on the results of the human factor experiments and redefined the fight-flight continuum which was defined at the time by the three observable states of a sentient being during a self-preservation reflex response: Fight/Camouflage/Flight.

      Our nazi concluded that both 'flight' and 'camouflage' reflex reactions belonged in the same meta-category because after exhibiting a camo re

    48. Re:This is America by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Rule #1 of parenting is never leave your kids alone with someone until after they agree to tell you their name.

      Say; What are the names of all your children's teachers?

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    49. Re:This is America by Toonol · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Usefully? What about truthfully? I don't think any reasonable definition of 'pedophile' includes all viewing of a naked child under all circumstances. I've given my naked child a bath, after all...

      Accusing people of something that is groundless, simply because the charge may be effective, is very wrong.

    50. Re:This is America by metaforest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Last time I checked.... minors are not afforded full protection under the constitution. Only adults beyond the age of consent are afforded full constitutional protection.

      I seem to recall a case in Alaska where a student was denied the right to free speech because they unwittingly were participating in a school sanctioned function on public property, and so the school was allowed to discipline the acts of the accused even though this person was NOT a Ward of the State at the time of their expression.

      The line between school and private life, for minors has become seriously blurred.

    51. Re:This is America by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2, Insightful

      THAT FREAKIN SERIOUS then you don't let a teacher deal with it, you call the police and let THEM deal with it

      No you don't; You call the parents in. At least the first few times until it's clear that they won't or can't deal with it in which case calling the cops can easily be justified and is at least partly about dealing with the problems of the parents. Schools should rightly be very careful about bringing the police in since the consequences can be extremely serious and it basically represents a failure of the school if it has to happen. They should normally have reacted earlier.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  2. Unless... by Misanthrope · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unless the district had a policy that made this a requirement of the officials, they should be held personally accountable for these horrid actions.

    1. Re:Unless... by afidel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly, making it unconstitutional but shielding the bad actors means NOTHING. As long as these people can do such incredibly stupid stuff and just have the taxpayers pick up the tab there is no real disincentive for them to act badly and they won't be forced to stop and think of the ramification of their actions.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  3. And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... by nebaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Clarence Thomas, who 'asserted that the majority's finding second-guesses the measures that educators take to maintain discipline "and ensure the health and safety of the students in their charge."'

    I can't imagine how forcing a 13-year old girl to strip ensures anyone's health and safety, especially since they were looking for IBUPROFIN, for heaven's sake.

    --
    Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    1. Re:And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Clarence Thomas, who 'asserted that the majority's finding second-guesses the measures that educators take to maintain discipline "and ensure the health and safety of the students in their charge."'

      I can't imagine how forcing a 13-year old girl to strip ensures anyone's health and safety, especially since they were looking for IBUPROFIN, for heaven's sake.

      The majority agrees with that part. From TFA:

      Had Savana been suspected of having illegal drugs that could have posed a far greater danger to herself and other students, the strip search, too, might have been justified, the majority said, in an opinion by Justice David H. Souter.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    2. Re:And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... by qbzzt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't imagine how forcing a 13-year old girl to strip ensures anyone's health and safety,

      If they were looking for something really dangerous, on the basis of credible evidence, I'd be the first to applaud them. It sucks, but kids have been used for fighting before.

      However, in this case they were just enforcing a "zero common sense" policy.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    3. Re:And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... by hansamurai · · Score: 4, Informative

      Thomas has had a lot of history with the 4th amendment, usually siding with the enforcement side, so maybe his decision isn't too surprising.

      See: Samson v. California, or Board of Education v. Earls. However, in Kyllo v. United States he agreed with the defendant that thermal imaging without a warrant violates the 4th.

    4. Re:And the "!" in the 8 to 1 is... by Allicorn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The majority agrees with that part. From TFA:

      Had Savana been suspected of having illegal drugs that could have posed a far greater danger to herself and other students, the strip search, too, might have been justified, the majority said, in an opinion by Justice David H. Souter.

      Holy forking schnitt.

      We like to have a good ol' joke and whinge about government and judiciary living in la-la-land and, true enough, they can often look fairly freakin' "out there" but from exactly how high do you need to have been dropped on your head as a baby to think that strip-searching school children is ever appropriate behaviour?!

      --
      OMG!!! Ponies!!!
  4. Make them pay! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Those sons-of-bitches should be fired and prosecuted for child abuse, at the very least. They humiliated and terrified a good child, who had done no wrong previously, over fucking MOTRIN.

    Just because it was "clearly established law" doesn't make it right to ignore that abusive treatment. At risk of godwin-ing this early, this stinks of "just following orders."

  5. Re:My Rights Online? by calmofthestorm · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good point, it's interstate commerce!

    --
    93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
  6. For once, read TFA. by powerlord · · Score: 4, Informative

    Okay, I'll admit that, like most Slashdotters, I skip the occasional article and jump straight into the comments, but people should really take the time to read this one!

    For instance:

    Had Savana been suspected of having illegal drugs that could have posed a far greater danger to herself and other students, the strip search, too, might have been justified, the majority said, in an opinion by Justice David H. Souter.

    and

    Justice Clarence Thomas was the only member of the court to conclude that the strip search of Savana Redding did not violate the Fourth Amendment. He asserted that the majority's finding second-guesses the measures that educators take to maintain discipline "and ensure the health and safety of the students in their charge."

    The discussion about wether the School Administrator should be held responsible is similarly contentious.

    Its nice to know that they chose well on upholding her rights, but its sad how close a thing it seems from the article.

    --
    This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
  7. Re:Well... by cervo · · Score: 2, Funny

    You'll get used to it by the time you hit 20 :)

  8. Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by scruffy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does he have the same copy as the rest of us?

    1. Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by Bigby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In his interpretation, "unreasonable searches" do not exist. Every search has a reason and the 4th amendment is therefore null and void.

    2. Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny, because as a "strict constructionist" he is usually credited as one that applies the Constitution exactly as written, i.e. more towards a limited, libertarian view. In this opinion, though, it was the liberal wing that most closely sided with the child being strip-searched in violation of her (or her parents') constitutional rights.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    3. Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by djseomun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, he simply interprets it correctly.

    4. Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by djseomun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Justice Thomas does not believe that the Fourth Amendment is "null and void." Rather, he does not believe that there is a Constitutional right to privacy. It's fact that the word 'privacy' doesn't once appear in the U.S. Constitution. Justice Douglas created it in Griswold v. Connecticut, and a majority of his colleagues voted in favor of it.

      As Justice Thomas doesn't believe in stare decisis, period, it's not surprising that he is still fighting against the "right to privacy."

    5. Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by slashqwerty · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      This is an issue of the government conducting an unreasonable search without a warrant. If Justice Thomas did not believe in stare decisis he would have not only ruled the search unconstitutional but he would have held the school personnel liable since confusing precedent is irrelevant.

      This is an excellent example of what the strict constructionist crowd fails to understand. When the constitution was written it did not apply to schools at all. It wasn't until the 14th amendment that the fourth amendment applied outside the federal government. The constitution clearly applies to public schools but at the time the 14th amendment was ratified most voters had never attended a public school. I think the notion that schools would function as law enforcement at that time would have been considered absurd.

    6. Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by djseomun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, you think it's an issue of the government conducting an unreasonable search without a warrant. If you read Justice Thomas's dissent, he explains why he believes the search was reasonable.

      ...the Court in T. L. O. held that a school search is "reasonable" if it is " 'justified at its inception' " and " 'reasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified the interference in the first place.' " Id., at 341-342 (quoting Terry v. Ohio, 392 U. S. 1, 20 (1968) ). The search under review easily meets this standard.

      With regard to "strict construction[ism]," first, it is a meaningless phrase. No one on the Supreme Court self-identifies as a "strict constructionist." Justice Scalia, the one most associated with the term, dismisses it as a "degraded form of textualism..." and wishes that no one be a strict constructionist.

      Now, the more important point: there is no misunderstanding here. The Constitution is not a living document; it is a dead one. So, that the Constitution "did not [originally] apply to schools" is not a problem whatsoever. An amendment changed that, and that's the way change ought to be effected. The judiciary is not in the business of creating anything; they are merely interpreters. The legislature is in the business of creating laws.

    7. Re:Clarence Thomas's Copy of the Constitution by XnavxeMiyyep · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, his copy has the Bill of Obligations and Bill of Responsibilities, and he's tired of everyone focusing on civil liberties!

      --
      I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
  9. Re:My Rights Online? by interkin3tic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They posted pics of the whole thing online. I would have sued about that too, but then again, they were suprisingly tasteful. I mean, she did use one of them as her yearbook photo.

  10. Qualified Immunity by Bryan+Gividen · · Score: 4, Informative

    The reason the officials were not held responsible is because of an idea called qualified immunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity) which essentially states that public officials cannot be held personally responsible for actions they undertake as part of their public duty and which, if illegal or unconstitutional, must clearly be illegal or unconstitutional.

    It is interesting to note that the two Justices that dissented regarding whether or not the school officials were covered by qualified immunity were Justice John Paul Stevens and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and that Justice Souter was a part of the majority. If Sotomayor is placed on the bench, it is feasible she would rule much closer to Justice Ginsburg and Stevens then to Souter on these types of matters.

    1. Re:Qualified Immunity by cockpitcomp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The qualified immunity defense did not work for the cop that violated Rodney King's rights and it should not work here either.

    2. Re:Qualified Immunity by u38cg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Pardon the pontificating from a bystanding Brit who is by no means as knowledgeable on your Constitution as he should be, but reading TFWA, I note the test is the usual one of a hypothetical "reasonable person". I might not be reasonable all the time, but I'm pretty sure if I was asked to strip-search a 13 year old girl, loco parentis or not, I would be reasonably sure it would be a bad idea.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    3. Re:Qualified Immunity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude we live in the cocaine capital of Europe where the government can't make up his mind if possession of a small amount of cannabis should get you an official telling off or just condescending lecture from a uniformed plod. Of course we can't understand why a bunch mad Yanks would think strip searching a 13 year old girl over some Ibuprofen is a good idea. Probably has something to do with socialism or something.

    4. Re:Qualified Immunity by LackThereof · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here in the US, public schools are typically surrounded by barbed wire, and not a small number have metal detectors at the doors. There's typically even a local police officer patrolling the halls in addition to the hired security.

      The general perception of a school in the US as a locked-down secure facility really blurs the line. "Reasonable" persons have a completely different frame of reference over here than they do over there..

      Or are your schools just as fucked up as ours? If they are, my hypothesis is totally wrong.

      --
      Legalize recreational marijuana. Seriously.
  11. Re:sue the school? by Phroggy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I hope this moves right into airline security. If the school can't search a student without a warrant, why can the TSA (government agency) search our bags and persons without a warrant?

    The theory is that although attending school is required by law, you don't have to fly. By choosing to fly, you voluntarily agree to be searched. Of course the reality is that other forms of long-distance travel are prohibitively inconvenient, but they're right that everyone who chooses to fly understands the rules beforehand.

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  12. All I know is one thing... by Jaysyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... if I was her brother or father I'd probably *still* be in jail for assault.

    --
    There is a war going on for your mind.
    1. Re:All I know is one thing... by webdragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ... if I was her brother or father I'd probably *still* be in jail for assault.

      Depends on how deep you bury the body afterwards Jaysyn.

  13. Re:News For Nerds How Exactly?!!! by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Funny

    A lot of nerds really like perscription Ibuprofen and are hope they'll be strip searched by hot blonde vixens in uniforms if they use it.

    There, fixed that for ya.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  14. Whys hould a policy help them? by The+Creator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unless the district had a policy that made this a requirement of the officials

    Do you really think that "We were just following orders" would be a legitimate exuse?

    --

    FRA: STFU GTFO
  15. All bark, no bite by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    However, by a vote of 7-2, the Court also ruled that the individual school officials could not be held personally liable

    What good is the ruling if there's no consequence? It seems to me that the biggest problem with government is that there's almost no accountability, and that leads to corruption & abuse of power.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:All bark, no bite by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I want a return to an old principle: "A government official cannot, by definition, act outside the law or their authority, because when they do they are not acting in an official capacity and shall not be treated as if they were.".

    2. Re:All bark, no bite by Nukenbar · · Score: 3, Informative

      The point is that these searches are now against the law and future officials can be held liable. It this search had already been a violation of clearly established law, the case would have never made it to the Supreme Court. See Qualified immunity.

    3. Re:All bark, no bite by Ailill · · Score: 2, Informative

      As a note, in the opinion the SCOTUS remanded part of the case in order for a lower court (9th Circuit) to determine if the school district is liable. P. 13 of the opinion; 17 of the pdf. http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/08-479.pdf So there is a very distinct possibility there will be at least faceless accountability, if that provides any comfort.

    4. Re:All bark, no bite by Kirijini · · Score: 2, Informative

      From Section IV of the majority opinion, edited to remove the citations (which, clearly, you weren't going to read anyway)(and with * marking the space between paragraphs, because slashdot is afraid of longish texts):

      *
      A school official searching a student is "entitled to qualified immunity where clearly established law does not show that the search violated the Fourth Amendment." Pearson v. Callahan. To be established clearly, however, there is no need that "the very action in question [have] previously been held unlawful." Wilson v. Layne. The unconstitutionality of outrageous conduct obviously will be unconstitutional, this being the reason, as Judge Posner has said, that "[t]he easiest cases don't even arise." K.H. v. Morgan. But even as to action less than an outrage, "officials can still be on notice that their conduct violates established law ... in novel factual circumstances." Hope v. Pelzer.
      *
      [New Jersey v. T.L. O.] directed school officials to limit the intrusiveness of a search, "in light of the age and sex of the student and the nature of the infraction," and as we have just said at some length, the intrusiveness of the strip search here cannot be seen as justifiably related to the circumstances. But we realize that the lower courts have reached divergent conclusions regarding how the T.L.O. standard applies to such searches.
      *
      A number of judges have read T.L.O. as the en banc minority of the Ninth Circuit did here. The Sixth Circuit upheld a strip search of a high school student for a drug, without any suspicion that drugs were hidden next to her body. Williams v. Ellington. And other courts considering qualified immunity for strip searches have read T.L.O. as "a series of abstractions, on the one hand, and a declaration of seeming deference to the judgments of school officials, on the other," Jenkins v. Talladega City Bd. of Ed., which made it impossible "to establish clearly the contours of a Fourth Amendment right ... [in] the wide variety of possible school settings different from those involved in T.L.O." itself. See also Thomas v. Roberts (granting qualified immunity to a teacher and police officer who conducted a group strip search of a fifth grade class when looking for a missing $26).
      *
      We think these differences of opinion from our own are substantial enough to require immunity for the school officials in this case. We would not suggest that entitlement to qualified immunity is the guaranteed product of disuniform views of the law in the other federal, or state, courts, and the fact that a single judge, or even a group of judges, disagrees about the contours of a right does not automatically render the law unclear if we have been clear. That said, however, the cases viewing school strip searches differently from the way we see them are numerous enough, with well-reasoned majority and dissenting opinions, to counsel doubt that we were sufficiently clear in the prior statement of law. We conclude that qualified immunity is warranted.

  16. Re:My Rights Online? by CorporateSuit · · Score: 4, Funny

    Because now we know that we can store torrents and pirated files in children's underpants (aka UnderWarez) that cannot, constitutionally, be searched by their school administrations.

    --
    I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
  17. Public Servants -- !!! by Pewpdaddy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Two things, there has to be a happy medium as to what is expected from school officials(these were obviously wrong). 1.) Administrators need to be able to search(strip searching is off the table IMO). 2.) If you think the kid has something(dangerous) hidden there should be a trained police officer on site aka School Resource Officer(SRO) who can make the call as to get the proper authorities involved. Also I concur any administrator who thinks they have the right to strip search a 13yr old student should be pinned to the wall. The extent of their all powerful positions is to expel pupils not strip search them.

  18. This is time to act. by delirium+of+disorder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Court also ruled that the individual school officials could not be held personally liable
    If the courts won't hold them liable, than the people must! If the administrators responsible don't quit, than the students need to go on strike. How can anyone consent to their peers being abused in this manner?!?!? It's time parents, teachers, and students stand up for each other and demand that the administration step down. These pigs are either power hungry megalomaniacs or contributor to sexual assault (or both).

    --
    ------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
    1. Re:This is time to act. by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Court also ruled that the individual school officials could not be held personally liable

      If the courts won't hold them liable, than the people must!

      That was my first thought. My grandfather told a story one time of his teacher doing something humiliating to him at school. When he told his mother, she went to school with a hatchet in hand. She didn't use it, but the problem was resolved.

      I don't recommend doing something that extreme, but it's obvious that people are too much of sheep nowadays to fix these problems. Honestly, this shouldn't have involved a court to begin with. Those responsible should have been publicly humiliated and forced to resign.

  19. War on Drugs... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Drugs Drugs Drugs. This is still coming down as a casualty of the war on drugs. What 'worse' could the 12 year old have had? MJ? Heroin? Maybe she's the large portion of 12 year old meth heads.

    Imagine a world where nothing was illegal, even for a 12 year old. They could follow the home style justice that some parents used to do with cigarettes they found: Make the kid smoke them ALL. One sitting. I know more people who have been stopped from smoking with this tactic than "Hey kids, don't smoke. It's a adult thing"

  20. Re:Never has the suddenoutbreakofcommonsense tag f by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

    Even in the USSR - which most slashdotters associate with complete absence of civil rights - a strip search of a teen girl by a school official never could have happened.

    I totally agree. Given the transparency and openness of the Soviet system, it's 20 gaziliion trillion percent sure that if it had happened, we'd all know about it.

    And Russia still pwnz everyone at libert[eh|ai|é] and all that shite. I mean, nosy journalists would never be assassinated by agents of the state. And even if they did, there'd never be a rigged trial to let the culprits walk away Scot-free.

    Now some might say that you communidiots are as bad as the libertards, and that it would be a most excellent idea to drop you all in some irrelevant and expendable place like Somalia, Belgium or Detroit and let you slug it out, all on prime time TV. Ignore them; they're capitalist running pig-dogs, all of them, and they'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  21. Re:sue the school? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm assuming the school district is still libel for the actions of it's employees

    Wrong. Iit is not written (or stored in a permanent form) defamation of it is employees.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  22. Re:sue the school? by camperdave · · Score: 3, Insightful
    While the TSA probably can set up shop at bus and train stations that service multiple states, setting up at a subway station would probably be WAY beyond their mandate.

    Ahem!

    The TSA is a component of the Department of Homeland Security. With state, local and regional partners, the TSA oversees security for highways, railroads, buses, mass transit systems, pipelines, ports, and 450 U.S. airports.

    Emphasis mine

    Also, See Here

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  23. Re:Stop blaming the government and schools... by Twanfox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hey, here's a thought. The child Did Not have the suspected drugs on her person, and was searched on suspicion of such. The parents, in your argument, did the correct thing and ensured that their child did not carry the inappropriate item to school, but they administrators did the search anyways.

    Would you like to review your argument and get back to us a little later?

  24. Re:This is AmeriKa by ichbineinneuben · · Score: 4, Funny

    As Justice Stevens said, "it does not require a constitutional scholar to conclude that a nude search of a 13-year-old child is an invasion of constitutional rights of some magnitude." But it took Justice Thomas to get to the heart of it, when he said, "Whadda ya mean, no one took pictures?"

  25. So let me get this straight... by CompassIIDX · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's cool if I forcibly strip-search a 13 year-old girl as long as I'm a school official working on "official business." I can't be held accountable.

    But if that same girl willingly texts me a cellphone pic of herself in a bikini, I'm looking at time in hard prison and branded a sex offender for life.

    Seems perfectly logical to me.

  26. Stevens rips into Thomas by snsh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Did Stevens have Thomas in mind when he wrote "it does not require a constitutional scholar to conclude that a nude search of a 13-year-old child is an invasion of constitutional rights of some magnitude.â

    When Thomas was nominated to Brennan's seat, the biggest complaint I remember was not Anita Hill or his ideology, but his skills. To be on the Supreme Court ou're supposed to be a scholar.

  27. interesting by CopterHawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So a minor with a naked picture of another minor on their phone is a sex offender, but an adult in a position of power who forces a minor to strip is not.

  28. Re:Whos the oddball by wickerprints · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Remember, Clarence Thomas was the one who was accused by Anita Hill of sexual harassment during his confirmation hearings, and got away with it. So why should it surprise anyone that he would find it perfectly acceptable for a government employee to strip search a 13 year-old girl? His dissent was the closest he could get to saying "Hot damn, I wish I'd been there to do it myself!" The man is a misogynist and a perv and the only reason why he was confirmed was because of his race.

    Seriously, Justice Thomas, Scalia, and Alito are the three Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Roberts is the understudy. The problem is that they have such a narrow, literal understanding of constitutional law that they utterly fail to appreciate how laws only have meaning when they are understood in the larger context of the needs of a diverse and ever-changing society. The Founding Fathers understood the Constitution to be a living document. No one so capable of drafting such words could possibly be so stupid or arrogant as to believe that the laws they created are forever perfectly formed. They knew they could not anticipate how American society would change over the centuries. The conservatives' insistence on the immutability of the Constitution is merely an excuse set forth in order to justify their attempts to holding onto power, even if it means denying entire classes of citizens their human rights.