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Social Security Numbers Can Be Guessed

BotScout writes "The nation's Social Security numbering scheme has left millions of citizens vulnerable to privacy breaches, according to researchers at Carnegie Mellon University, who for the first time have used statistical techniques to predict Social Security numbers solely from an individual's date and location of birth. The researchers used the information they gleaned to predict, in one try, the first five digits of a person's Social Security number 44 percent of the time for 160,000 people born between 1989 and 2003. A Social Security Administration spokesman said the government has long cautioned the private sector against using a social security number as a personal identifier, even as it insists 'there is no fool-proof method for predicting a person's Social Security Number.'" Update: 07/07 00:01 GMT by T : Reader angrytuna links to Wired's coverage of the SSN deduction system, and links to the researchers' FAQ at Carnegie Mellon, which says that the research paper will be presented at BlackHat Las Vegas later this month.

268 comments

  1. good thing by _ivy_ivy_ · · Score: 5, Funny

    they only put the last 4 digits on my paycheck!

    1. Re:good thing by SomeJoel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even though your post was quite amusing, I think the whole "last 4 digit" thing is overused as well. Since pretty much everyone only needs the "last 4 digits" to verify identity, if one of your conversations is compromised (ever overhear a co-worker's phone call?) then pretty much all of your accounts will be easy to break into. Coupled with the fact that it is next to impossible to actually change a SSN, you are pretty much screwed for life. Why SSNs were used as security devices is beyond me, though I am guessing the fact that "everyone already has one!" was a big part of it.

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    2. Re:good thing by tverbeek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      SSNs started being used because A) "every one has one", B) they can't be changed, C) they're unique nation-wide, and D) they're all the same format nation-wide. If driver licences, phone numbers, checking accounts, or some other ID had met those criteria, we'd be using that instead.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    3. Re:good thing by davester666 · · Score: 1

      "there is no fool-proof method for predicting a person's Social Security Number"

      We have MUCH bigger fools now, so it's no big deal to predict SSN's...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    4. Re:good thing by sexconker · · Score: 1

      The last 4 digits, or your account pin.

      I haven't encountered a company that won't let you change you pin from the default (the last 4 digits of your SSN) to one of your choosing.

      No, if you forget your account pin, they'll probably just have you verify your identity with the last four digits of your SSN...

      But it at least keeps yous SSN off of your statements, away from the ears of eavesdroppers, etc.

    5. Re:good thing by RomulusNR · · Score: 1

      Consider that simply knowing what credit card you have (and from what bank, etc.) can often nail anywhere from the first 1 to 6 digits (depending on details), plus one receipt holding the last 4 digits, covers more than half the number leaving 6 unknown. The final digit reduces the possibilities by roughly 90%.

      --
      Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
    6. Re:good thing by Mycroft_VIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually C) is not entirely true, and NOT guaranteed.
      The combination of name and number is supposed to be unique(by being so incredibly unlikely), but the generating process makes no attempt to see if a number is already in use by anyone else.

      Mycroft

      --
      https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
    7. Re:good thing by aztektum · · Score: 1

      Why SSNs were used as security devices is beyond me, though I am guessing the fact that "everyone already has one!" was a big part of it.

      Having once worked in the sales realm of the cellular phone industry, I've encountered people with several!

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      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    8. Re:good thing by loners · · Score: 1

      Conditional on C. SSNs are only unique when in combination with other information. The SSN itself is not unique.

    9. Re:good thing by zippthorne · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Incredibly unlikely?? It's one in freaking three. 999999999 means only 1,000 million possible numbers, if the geographic coding didn't exist and the group coding didn't remove many numbers from the available number space, making things much, much worse. For a population of 300 million...

      By my count, if there is no checking, the probability of collisions is incredibly high.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    10. Re:good thing by dbialac · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well the thing is the article itself is a bit misleading. It didn't take a study to find that you can predict the first 5 digits with 44% accuracy -- it was already a known factor. In fact, the less populous a state, the more likely they are to get it right. In smaller states (population-wise) such as the Dakotas, there may only be one prefix assigned to the state and with the second set of numbers being sequential, that 44% accuracy goes up very close to 100%. This is why the government has always told the private sector it was a bad idea.

    11. Re:good thing by pearl298 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me see, the FIRST 5 can be guessed by knowing place and date of birht and the LAST 4 can be overheard or read form paychecks etc.

      Gee I think that gives out the whole err 5+4 = 9(!) digits doesn't it?

    12. Re:good thing by cinderblock · · Score: 1

      The final digit reduces the possibilities by roughly 90%.

      By definition, each digit reduces the possibilities by exactly 90%.

    13. Re:good thing by muridae · · Score: 1

      And since the last 4 digits of the credit card number are a check sum for the first 12, you can narrow it down a bit further. If you have the first 6 and last 4, finding the middle 6 could be pretty easy.

    14. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are (roughly) 3x as many SSNs as living US citizens. Add in some dead folks, account for holes in the numbering system, and let's call it 2x.

      If the numbers were assigned at random, I think there would be roughly a 60% (intuition, pardon my laziness) chance that someone else shared your SSN. The claim is that it is "incredibly unlikely" that that person (or one of those people, in the increasingly unlikely situations of multiple collisions) who shares your SSN *ALSO* shares your name.

      For a randomly selected person, I agree. However, I expect there are specific counterexamples (remember, 1-in-a-billion things happen to 6 people on Earth every day). There are 50k John Smith in the USA, out of 300M people. 30k of them have SSN collisions with a random other person. There is a ~1/1000 chance that two of them collide with each other. I don't think that 1/1000 is "incredibly unlikely"... I also think you probably aren't named John Smith :)

    15. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and now, some of us will have two!

    16. Re:good thing by daath93 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I work for social security, its not impossible to change your number, you just have to actually SHOW that you tried to clear up your problem. This is required for many reasons, not the least of which is some freaky people actually rent their social security number out to illegal immigrants, then expect us to replace their number when their identity is compromised.

    17. Re:good thing by erroneus · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem is that it is illegal/unlawful to use the SSN for anything but Social Security. It is NOT supposed to be used as an identity source for everything else. This is just one of those citizen protection laws that have been casually ignored by everyone. I always get strange looks and confusion when I cite the law and even show it to people.

      http://www.faqs.org/faqs/privacy/ssn-faq/ http://www.glr.com/govt/privacy/ssnuse2.html -- this exposes some of the problems in that many common uses are not required by federal law and that there are few prohibitions on the commercial use and exploitation of it.

      However. You can request a federal tax payer ID number and use that when paying taxes. It is the same format as the SSN and can often be effectively used as a replacement for an SSN in many situations.

    18. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best first post. Ever.

    19. Re:good thing by Joren · · Score: 2, Informative

      Incredibly unlikely?? It's one in freaking three. 999999999 means only 1,000 million possible numbers, if the geographic coding didn't exist and the group coding didn't remove many numbers from the available number space, making things much, much worse. For a population of 300 million...

      By my count, if there is no checking, the probability of collisions is incredibly high.

      Mycroft was referring to "the combination of name and number", not the number by itself. It would be rather unlikely to have the same name b>and the same number. Additionally, they do check for collisions (or at least try to). They don't just throw the dice and give it to you, come what may; they give out numbers with the expectation it that it has never been used before. It is intended to be a unique key, not only a hash to be used in conjunction with one's name... however, it is fast becoming that way because despite best intentions, the numbers are not entirely unique. Due to various causes, such as simple incompetence, identity theft, mistakes by the SSA or by people themselves when they fill out applications, and unavoidable collisions when the same number is assigned at the same time, it is possible for people to be given the same SSN. And you are right that there aren't nearly enough of them to be useful even if this weren't true.

      --
      -- Joren
    20. Re:good thing by Joren · · Score: 1

      Oh dear...bad formatting. Sorry!

      --
      -- Joren
    21. Re:good thing by Joren · · Score: 1

      So it is or is not illegal? You seem to be saying it's illegal to use it as an ID, but then you're also saying that commercially, it's not illegal ("few prohibitions"). Can you explain what you mean?

      --
      -- Joren
    22. Re:good thing by jra · · Score: 1

      And in any event, those are mediocre reasons not to use it as an *identifier*, but air-tight reasons not to use it for what is actually the problem.... read on down the comments. ;-)

    23. Re:good thing by fooslacker · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Mycroft is correct in that they aren't guaranteed unique. In fact I once met a corporate trainer who was issued the SSN of a dead guy by the government. The guy had been dead only two or three years and it was a complete mess for credit etc. The big problem was that there isn't really a way to deal with this and the government tells you it is your responsibility to resolve any issues it causes and that they are not responsible for helping you.

    24. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course they're unique. Different regions are given different ranges, and the numbers within those ranges are handed out sequentially. Unless two different regions somehow got overlapping ranges of numbers, there's no way that the same number could be handed out to multiple people.

    25. Re:good thing by shiftless · · Score: 1

      No shit? It was a joke, dumb ass

    26. Re:good thing by erroneus · · Score: 2, Informative

      I should have been more clear. It is unlawful in the sense that the intent of the social security act of 1975 was to work against or otherwise discourage the use (mostly by government) of the SSN for purposes other than Social Security. Commercial activities are getting a big exemption on this because it is considered voluntary. (It's not really voluntary any longer as to lead a "normal" life, one needs to maintain that damned number and so there have been recent attempts to reign in the use of the SSN through bills in congress but clearly they haven't gone through.)

    27. Re:good thing by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are they actually used as a security device by people? Why do Americans think that SSNs should be somehow secret? What difference does it make if someone knows your SSN without knowing your other details?

      The equivalent of SSN in other countries (e.g. the National Insurance number in the UK, DNI in Spain, etc) are not secret in any way, and it causes no problems whatsoever.

      Really, if a company is stupid enough to just use your SSN to identify you, with no further checks, they deserve to be defrauded, and certainly couldn't use that as a reason to hold you liable for the fraud. They're not even unique.

    28. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OLD information in their "study." This came into print during the 80's, again in the 90's, on the web in the late 90's, and again in the mid 2000's. Why does this keep coming up as "NEW" and "dangerous" when it's just as OLD and DANGEROUS as it always was?

      The last four digits is always enough information for a determined perp. Even without 4 ending digits there are enough ways to request "verification" to brute force the last 9,999 variations.

      SSN's are not to be used for identification purposes, but they are. Just stop giving them (any digits) to ANYONE that asks unless it is the Social Security Administration, OR the IRS. Not even a drivers license application REQUIRES the information, that is a REQUEST which the states must *attempt* to collect the information per Federal code. Funny how that federal code put into effect during the Cliton administration is found in section 6 6 6 isn't it? Refuse the mark! Live free!

    29. Re:good thing by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      B) they can't be changed

      Actually, what I found is "A new Social Security number may be issued if you can prove that someone has stolen your number and is using it illegally." which sounds a bit weird to me. That is, they expect you to keep checking whether your number is used by only one person, which is - in a fortunate case - is yourself. I even heard rumors (that is, gossip, urban legend, etc) that even the case can happen when the SS office itself gives out a number that is already in use - can that really happen? If some illegal worker-wannabe takes a lucky guess - known to happen - and picks an existing number, how will you find that out?

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    30. Re:good thing by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      I also think you probably aren't named John Smith :)

      Actually, this a perfect example for why is "good" for the U.S. that so many immigrants settle there. It keeps a high variation in names associated with SSNs, which makes the risk of overlapping numbers and overlapping names occuring at the same time.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    31. Re:good thing by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      [...]which makes the risk of overlapping[...] should've been "which lowers the risk..." (sorry)

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    32. Re:good thing by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      rent their social security number out to illegal immigrants

      Geez, now that really sounds stupid.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    33. Re:good thing by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      But if you share an SSN with a person with a different name then its possible for you to pretend to be that person, so maybe the scenario with the name and SSN collision isn't the one you should worry about. Additionally the existence of dupes creates plausible denyability for people who just make up a new SSN.

    34. Re:good thing by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      Given that the SSN should never have been used in the way that it is, that's a perfectly acceptable response from the Government. However, a Federal law banning the use of SSN for non-tax, non-SSA related business is way overdue.

    35. Re:good thing by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      The equivalent of SSN in other countries (e.g. the National Insurance number in the UK, DNI in Spain, etc) are not secret in any way, and it causes no problems whatsoever.

      That's because in every other country, it identifies you within the social security database (that is the public health system). Therefore at the most, someone could possibly collect your social security reimbursements by impersonating you.Very little potential for problems. Works as designed.

      In the US, it identifies you in each and every database under the sun (and probably most underground ones). Major potential for problems. Design has been completely broken by the corporations.

      --

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      Made from the freshest electrons.
    36. Re:good thing by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      This is where the government has to be brought into court and held accountable, unfortunately this type of case, is one of those pro-bono, because no real cash will be exchanged, but a
      precedent will be set, if the government is made to be held accountable...and must redesign a faulty system. why not just add a digit at the end, all of a sudden you have now ended the whole problem and can add that many more numbers to the deck.

    37. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would double check that. I know for a fact that the Social Security Office has a central database with all that information, and I also know someone who works for them and they only use name to VALIDATE a person's number. You give them a number, they type it in a get a single record.

      To my understanding, each office is given a block of numbers and those are then given out as people apply for cards. I don't know how a duplicate could come out of that, given a single point of assignment.

    38. Re:good thing by Timex · · Score: 1

      The first five digits aren't guaranteed to have anything to do with the person's place of birth, and the date of birth doesn't really have any say in the matter anyway.

      Information on the derivation of a person's SSN can be found on the SSA's website.

      Before 1972, the first three digits came from blocks assigned to the state from which the SSN was issued. After 1972, the first three digits came from the ZIP code of the applicant's mailing address (which, as you may expect, is not guaranteed to be the same as the actual place of residence).

      Myself, I was born in one state, raised in another, but my SSN reflects the state I was living in at the time my mother applied for it. (I'm old enough where I was not issued a number at birth, like my children were.) I have fun with people who try to show their intelligence with comments like "Oh, you're from [State], huh?" :)

      --
      When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
    39. Re:good thing by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I believe that's true. IIRC when I went to get one the lady at the office pulled a stack of cards out of the desk and gave the top one to me. Still have it, somewhere, even though I deimmigrated some years ago.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    40. Re:good thing by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Maybe not.

      1) Rent out SSN to immigrants
      2) They contribute onto your account
      3) ...
      4) Big pension!!!!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    41. Re:good thing by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      Therefore at the most, someone could possibly collect your social security reimbursements by impersonating you.

      Well, no, they couldn't, because you can't collection social security without proof of ID, you can't just go in and give them a number and no ID and expect to collect money. Surely they have similar checks in the US?

      In the US, it identifies you in each and every database under the sun (and probably most underground ones). Major potential for problems. Design has been completely broken by the corporations.

      That's really not your problem though is it - if some company uses your SSN and is subject to fraud, it has no comeback to you because you didn't somehow keep your SSN secret (how would you even do that when you have to hand it out to employers, government agencies, and companies like that one?). Companies like Experian use NI nos in the UK as well, as one factor in a process of identifying someone, not as the sole key - it's not uniquely used on government business.

      If a company uses an external key like this, which isn't even guaranteed unique, and may change by government fiat, as their internal identifier, they've made a foolish mistake. Quite apart from the fact it can be guessed, it's also unreliable, and subject to change which they can't control.

      However because some companies use a govt. supplied SSN as a unique ID for you, that doesn't make your SSN suddenly secure and secret; it has never been proof of identity, or a secret code, nor should it be treated as such by anyone. Do people accept your name as your proof of ID? Why should they then accept your SSN, with no further checks?

    42. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      999999999 means only 1,000 million

      Or as those of us with degrees in Mathematics like to say, one billion...

    43. Re:good thing by fooslacker · · Score: 1

      Given that the SSN should never have been used in the way that it is, that's a perfectly acceptable response from the Government. However, a Federal law banning the use of SSN for non-tax, non-SSA related business is way overdue.

      I disagree. The government regulates many of the industries that use it, especially in the financial sector. If they regulate them and allow this type of identification to be required for participation and it's an id provided by them they have an obligation to make it a legit ID.

      IMO you can't say here is an ID don't use it but the businesses I regulate do use it and I don't stop them oh and by the way if you want to participate then you must use it but if there is a problem it's your mess. That would never fly in the a private unregulated sector. They'd be screaming bloody murder about consumer rights and calling in folks to testify before congress. We shouldn't accept it from our government either. They need to fix the issue one way or another.

    44. Re:good thing by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      If you have a degree in Mathematics, then I'd think you'd be familiar with long and short scales. The US has always used short scale, but in long scale, which was used in the UK until 1974, the term billion means 10^12 (a trillion in short scale), and the the term milliard meant 10^9 (a billion in short scale).

      Because of this, it is rather common for older Brits or people raised in non-English speaking cultures to say "one thousand million" instead of "billion".

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    45. Re:good thing by Ironica · · Score: 1

      Ok, my SSN was issued in Year X, and has as its first three digits ABC.

      My husband's SSN was issued in the same city, state, and county in Year X-9, and its first three digits are ABC-64.

      My first son's SSN was issued in Year X+18 with the same geographic location, and has as its first three digits ABC-14.

      His brother's SSN was issued in Year X+22 with the same geographic location, and the first three digits are ABC+4.

      So, if they were issuing numbers sequentially from series ABC 22 years earlier, and they managed to wrap back around and then blast PAST series ABC in the previous four years, how confident are you that they would have caught any collisions? Especially if in nine years a few decades ago they went through 64 series?

      --
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    46. Re:good thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stupidity is not fixed by applying more stupidity.

    47. Re:good thing by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      Did you not read parent before responding? He said what is highly unlikely is that name and SSN combination is a collision.

    48. Re:good thing by daath93 · · Score: 1

      except when they get legal residency they bring their w2s into social security and put all their illegal earnings on their new legal number.

      its one of the most painfully annoying duties i have, transferring 30 years of work from one number to another.

    49. Re:good thing by ug333 · · Score: 1

      OK, i have contacted my friend ho WORKS for Social Security. This is bogus. Each office is given a block of numbers, and all numbers in that area come from that office. They have yet to recycle any numbers for deceased individuals, and living individuals aren't assigned random numbers. Once a number is taken it is out of the pool. Mistakes CAN happen, but it would be an error of the Social Security office and they would correct it (this has happened at my friends office, but only once in 5 years). The most common problem is that someone else is USING your number (or you their's) due to a mistake by you or them. That is from the mouth of someone who actually assigns these numbers.

    50. Re:good thing by ug333 · · Score: 1

      I should add that these blocks of numbers are not permanent. A small block is assigned, it is used up, and they are assigned another block.

    51. Re:good thing by Ironica · · Score: 1

      Therefore at the most, someone could possibly collect your social security reimbursements by impersonating you.

      Well, no, they couldn't, because you can't collection social security without proof of ID, you can't just go in and give them a number and no ID and expect to collect money. Surely they have similar checks in the US?

      The problem is that many entities use the SSN *as* a check of identity. If I call my bank to conduct a transaction, I give them my name and account number. Then they ask me for either my SSN (possibly just the last four digits) or my mother's maiden name to verify that I'm me. Fortunately, I started giving a different name many years ago, but since EVERYONE uses the same pieces of information, someone who gets your authentication from one institution could use it to impersonate you at another one.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    52. Re:good thing by Ironica · · Score: 1

      If some illegal worker-wannabe takes a lucky guess - known to happen - and picks an existing number, how will you find that out?

      These days, the SSA randomly sends out summaries of your current account status on a rolling basis. I've gotten three or four of them in the last 10 years. They detail the earnings reported to SSA under my number each year, and how much has been deducted, and make some projections about what will be available to me when I'm 65. There's also useful info about what SS is and how it works... but the main reason they do this, I gather, is so that people may say "What! I didn't make THAT much money last year!" and they'll detect someone else using their SSN for employment.

      But then... why should they report it? It's like someone else depositing money into your bank account for you. What's the motivation to blow the whistle?

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    53. Re:good thing by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's what he meant was a good thing.

    54. Re:good thing by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      The problem is that many entities use the SSN *as* a check of identity. If I call my bank to conduct a transaction, I give them my name and account number. Then they ask me for either my SSN (possibly just the last four digits) or my mother's maiden name to verify that I'm me.

      You should change bank, seriously.

      The best security I've seen is the digital equivalent of a one-time pad that the bank gives you - that's what I have on one of my accounts (they sent me the gadget free, because it saves them money on fraud). The other uses a bank id, password and question/answer pair chosen by me, which is reasonably secure, or, for telephone contact, a telephone PIN which goes through an automated system the operator doesn't hear. So far as I know that's the norm here in the UK for banks.

      I'm sure you'll agree that asking for something like an SSN is almost as bad as asking a predictable question like your mother's maiden name. That's not proof of ID at all. They should at least establish a password or PIN with you when you first open the account and require that as verification.

      The method you outline means anyone who has seen your payment details and SSN (at an employer, or recruitment agency say), could withdraw money from your bank account. Ouch. It's so scarily insecure I'd consider changing banks for that alone.

    55. Re:good thing by Joren · · Score: 1

      So when a government asks, it's considered involuntary because they are legally obligating its use for a non-SS purpose. But when commercial corporations do it, it's considered "voluntary" because you can always take your business elsewhere. But now that ALL businesses ask for it, there really isn't anywhere else to go. I guess I would not call that illegal, then, but requiring it as a condition of doing business does seem rather contrary to the idea of "voluntary".

      I used to work for Safeway, and whenever someone wrote a check, we always had to ask for their SSN to help us verify. "But what", I asked, "happens if they don't want to provide it?" Answer? "Nothing." So we were asking for something even though it wasn't required, and getting away with it, because the natural response when asked is to assume it IS required. I'm not even clear how the SSN is supposed to help Safeway verify anything about the check itself, and even if it does, is that more valuable to the customer than their own privacy?

      So, I just took to asking for it and saying "you don't' have to" :D

      --
      -- Joren
    56. Re:good thing by Ironica · · Score: 1

      You should change bank, seriously.

      Most of them do that here. The ones that think they're clever and don't still use very easily hacked systems, like

      The other uses a bank id, password and question/answer pair chosen by me,

      ...which is only as good as the person choosing the password and challenge/response pair. Most people will pick stuff like My First Pet's Name, and since their computer desktop at work is "My Beloved Fido," everyone they know knows the answer already. There was even a story here about it recently.

      which is reasonably secure, or, for telephone contact, a telephone PIN which goes through an automated system the operator doesn't hear.

      Which keeps the operator from hearing your PIN, but doesn't prevent someone who actually tries from recording it.

      I'm sure you'll agree that asking for something like an SSN is almost as bad as asking a predictable question like your mother's maiden name. That's not proof of ID at all. They should at least establish a password or PIN with you when you first open the account and require that as verification.

      Oh, they do establish that PIN. You use it at the ATM, and when you walk into the bank to deposit checks. BUT, it's soooooo important to keep secure, they will NOT allow you to use it for online transactions; you have to set up a *different* PIN there. And of course, you can't use it for telephone transactions either, for the same reason.

      Yeah, our banks know just enough about information security to be dangerous.

      The method you outline means anyone who has seen your payment details and SSN (at an employer, or recruitment agency say), could withdraw money from your bank account. Ouch. It's so scarily insecure I'd consider changing banks for that alone.

      Unfortunately, Lloyd's closed my account when my UK residency expired. I had a heck of a time even getting them to give me an account, since I was just there on a temporary work permit. They wouldn't let me have a checking account at all, just savings.

      Here, all banks are pretty similar. The ones who are more "secure" just ADD things like security questions to the pile, without really thinking hard about security.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    57. Re:good thing by RomulusNR · · Score: 1

      The possibilities of the unknown middle 6, I meant.

      --
      Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
  2. Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It was pretty obvious when my sister and I received sequential numbers.

    1. Re:Duh by JWSmythe · · Score: 5, Interesting

          If they were filed sequentially, and no other filing happened between your two records, they should.

          Read up on SSN's.

          The first 3 digits is the area (state) which it was issued, which does not necessarily match the state where the person was born.
          The second 2 are a group number. These groups are given out in an odd order. Check the SSA site or wikipedia for the details on that.
          The last 4 digits are a serial number.

          If you know the state where it was issued (either their birth or residence state), and the group number assigned in the likely period when they received a number, then you pretty much have the first two parts of the SSN. I'm curious to how they calculated the last 4 digits.

          I would suspect in 1989, they started automatically issuing SSN's at birth, which made the target much easier, if they had the birth month and year available. And yes, this does bring the number pool way down to 9,999 potential SSNs.

          Someone like me, I was born in one state, but I was not issued a card until I lived in another state, and was a few years older. You can't base it on my birth date nor location. The best guess would be where I lived, but you can't narrow it down to month or year, because you don't know when it happened. Was I 2 months old, or 5 years old? Maybe I simply never got one until I was 16 and wanted a job. I knew people in school who didn't have one, which threw off some of the school's paperwork. :) Someone I knew didn't have one until he was 21, because he didn't have a birth certificate (born at home, no surviving witnesses other than his parents). He finally did get one, and then got his drivers license. :) They wouldn't issue his drivers license until he has a SSN.

          They really should have never gone with SSN's as an identification. It's bad to have a serial number issued by the government. Really, any American isn't an American, we are our SSN, and the name associated with it is an arbitrary value.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    2. Re:Duh by gznork26 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The cards have changed over the years, but mine specifically states:
      "For social security and tax purposes -- not for identification"

      What were the steps that led down the slippery slope of using them for identification?

    3. Re:Duh by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes... in fact, when they were first suggest, people had many objections (including religious reasons) to not want to be "numbered."

      The federal government swore that the only use would be for social security, and nothing else.

      So, anything else they promise, GET IT WRITING. When they pass a law, and you say "yeah, but it's so loosely worded that you can use it for [i]this other thing[/i]," and they say "but we won't," get it in writing.

      For example, when they say they want to use GPS only to track your miles, get it in writing.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    4. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people were allergic to the tattoo ink.

    5. Re:Duh by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would suspect in 1989, they started automatically issuing SSN's at birth, which made the target much easier, if they had the birth month and year available.

      IIRC, around then the IRS started requiring you to submit the SSN's of minor dependents you were claiming as exemptions.

    6. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...because he didn't have a birth certificate

      There's no shame in that, it won't even disqualify you from being President of the United States.

    7. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Twins? We have fraternal twins,. and they have sequential numbers as well.

    8. Re:Duh by turbidostato · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "What were the steps that led down the slippery slope of using them for identification?"

      The problem is not that the SSN is used for identification, with very few corner cases is guaranteed to be unique, so it's a good candidate. The problem is when it's used for *qualified* identification, and not the number but just knowing it. That's the mad part. Proper nouns have been used for ages as an identificative token: "Hi, Joe, this is my friend Mike" and there's no problem with that (given a much limited scope, of course). But you really know that me calling myself "John Doe" doesn't give to that token too much authority.

      The problem is not identifying somebody as being 1243839845B, which is not a bad idea provided there's only one 1243839845B and there's an interest on univocally identifying people (which is a different problem). The problem comes when all the comprobation you do is the like to "Hey, he must certainly be 1243839845B. How do you know? Because so he says".

      This is in fact an acknowledged problem almost everywhere but USA: that's why you are identified as 1243839845B, not because you say so but because you say so *and* can produce an ID card with that number, your photograph and your fingerprints on it.

      Disregarding the question of nationwide identification being good or bad (and in fact, USA has already disregarded this problem too or else the SSN wouldn't be used for identification purpouses) this news seems to be absourd out of USA: well, my ID number is 34980233, there you have... so what?

    9. Re:Duh by Planesdragon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For example, when they say they want to use GPS only to track your miles, get it in writing.

      Screw that. Get SOMETHING BETTER.

      I'm all for automatic tracking of speeding -- IF we get 100% enforcement, no exceptions. If you're not an emergency vehicle WITH LIGHTS ON, you (personally) get a fine.

      I'm all for the Feds having a national ID -- so long as I can query a list of everyone who looks up my info. Forever.

    10. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no shame in that, it won't even disqualify you from being President of the United States.

      Why should it? There's no requirement for a birth certificate in the Constitution. I looked.

    11. Re:Duh by russotto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, anything else they promise, GET IT WRITING. When they pass a law, and you say "yeah, but it's so loosely worded that you can use it for [i]this other thing[/i]," and they say "but we won't," get it in writing.

      It was in writing; that's why "NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" was on the cards. As with other well-known governmental entitites, they chose to change the agreement and inform complainers that they should be hopeful there would be no further changes. Whenever a law has potential for abuse, even if language is specifically written to preclude that abuse, instead
      1) Assume they're lying.
      and
      2) Assume that even if they aren't, some future opportunist will break the promises made by the earlier legislation.

    12. Re:Duh by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1, Funny

      Heh, personally, I think Obama is like a submarine patent.

      The Republicans knew they couldn't win, so they got together with "them" to put "him" in office.

      The understanding is, that if anything really objectionable gets signed into law, it can later be nullified on the grounds that Obama wasn't really qualified to start with.

      Come on, we all know this is leading up to an Illuminati like climax in a few decades, where someone, with the proper papers and legal claim, becomes the "legitimate" ruler of All Man Kind.

      The joke is on them, however, because, with luck, there will be genetically modified "people" who no longer feel unity with "Man Kind".

      (Well, I made a stab at it... I don't know how real conspiracy theorists can persist, they might be genuinely mentally ill. It's exhausting!

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    13. Re:Duh by daath93 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Social Security administration now has a policy that if you have a sequential number with a sibling or other close family member you can get a new number. Nowadays we would clear your sister's SSN one day, then clear yours the next (or vice-versa) to prevent this from happening. You may also aquire a new social security number if you have rampant ID theft, or a religious aversion to your number (I.E. 666 appears in it).

    14. Re:Duh by daath93 · · Score: 1

      The statement has been removed from newer cards and the ruling is retroactive all the way back regardless of what your card states.

    15. Re:Duh by daath93 · · Score: 1

      Social Security "chose" nothing, its an elected congress that passes these rules.

    16. Re:Duh by daath93 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Tax Reform Act of 1976 (P.L. 94-455) included the following amendments to the Social Security Act:

      * To allow use by the States of the SSN in the administration of any tax, general public assistance, driver's license or motor vehicle registration law within their jurisdiction and to authorize the States to require individuals affected by such laws to furnish their SSNs to the States;
      * To make misuse of the SSN for any purpose a violation of the Social Security Act;
      * To make, under federal law, unlawful disclosure or compelling disclosure of the SSN of any person a felony, punishable by fine and/or imprisonment.
      * To amend section 6109 of the Internal Revenue Code to provide that the SSN be used as the tax identification number (TIN) for all tax purposes. While the Treasury Department had been using the SSN as the TIN by regulation since 1962, this law codified that requirement.

      Social Security Number Chronology

    17. Re:Duh by daath93 · · Score: 1

      1987: SSA initiated a demonstration project on August 17 in the State of New Mexico enabling parents to obtain Social Security numbers for their newborn infants automatically when the infant's birth was registered by the State. The program was expanded nationwide in 1989. Currently, all 50 States participate in the program, as well as New York City, Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico.

    18. Re:Duh by El_Oscuro · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "I am altering our agreement. Pray I do not alter it further."

      --
      "Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
    19. Re:Duh by jackbird · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Currently, all 50 States participate in the program, as well as New York City, Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico.

      Does New York City have a unique political status of which I am unaware? I imagine that if the state of New York does something, it's reasonable to expect the city does, too. Except, perhaps, vote for republicans.

    20. Re:Duh by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      Conspiracy theories are effective because of the notion that a select few people can and do fuck things up for everybody else.

      It's not necessarily an illuminati-style thing started by the knights templar and involving freemasons and Catholics, it's just a bunch of animalistic greed. Hunger for money, lust for power. Coveting control. Abuse of a national registry is an inevitable part of that agenda.

    21. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New York City is a part of New York State, it doesn't follow the program on its own.

    22. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed. I was completely blown away when I moved to IL a couple of years ago and was told that my previous driver's license was insufficient identification to get a new license, but my little paper SSN card _was_. Insane.

    23. Re:Duh by daath93 · · Score: 1

      When you see oddities like this in government text its generally due to legal issues at some point. For example if new york city at one time filed suit against the law, perhaps.

    24. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm all for automatic tracking of speeding -- IF we get 100% enforcement, no exceptions. If you're not an emergency vehicle WITH LIGHTS ON, you (personally) get a fine.

      Haha. Where I live, a number of government vehicles have been caught by red-light cameras & photo radar. And the employees' union has the balls to complain when they get reprimanded by their employer.

    25. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example, when they say they want to use GPS only to track your miles, get it in writing.

      How about just not give them such power in the first place?

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

      Sounds pretty clear to me, but FISA 2008 disagrees.

      Never leave a wolf to guard the hen-house, even if you have it in writing.

    26. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i was thinking the serial number from the gov is an ok idea if they would change it to 32 bit notation and make it rout-able....

      instead of 123-45-6789 I could have 172.31.20.12 or whatever. (Yes I know that is private space.)

    27. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      1987: SSA initiated a demonstration project on August 17 in the State of New Mexico enabling parents to obtain Social Security numbers for their newborn infants automatically when the infant's birth was registered by the State. The program was expanded nationwide in 1989. Currently, all 50 States participate in the program, as well as New York City, Washington, D.C., and Puerto Rico.

      I'm posting this anonymously because I'm about to reveal information about my self that might enable the theft of either my identity or members of my immediate family.

      My mother got SSNs for all of her kids at the same time, so my siblings and I have consecutive numbers. This was before computer networks, so the numbers were pre-printed on the forms. Since the clerk counted out the forms one at a time, the eldest child got the largest number and the youngest, the smallest.

      My oldest kids were born before 1989, and I deliberately delayed getting them registered; when they did get registered, it was in a city where we'd never lived. By then, the Social Security Administration didn't assign your number until the form was entered into the computer. As a result, their numbers aren't consecutive, but they are pretty close to each other. My youngest kids were born overseas and didn't get SSNs until the April after we were back in the US. That leaves the kids who were born in a US hospital and had an SSN before going home. They are at risk for this attack and will have to be warned to conceal their date and location of birth.

    28. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes - when the number of American children roughly halved in one year...

    29. Re:Duh by Teancum · · Score: 2, Informative

      Social Security "chose" nothing, its an elected congress that passes these rules.

      That isn't entirely true. The Social Security Administration (as political appointees on the top tier, but this includes career civil employees as well) often does involve itself in legislative matters that involve that agency. This is true of all governmental bodies... just watch how crowded city hall gets when pay schedules for police or fire fighters is being discussed.

      The point is that many of the changes to expand the scope and range of SSNs happened with not just the consultation of SSA employees, but that many of those suggestions came from that organization as well. Not all of them, and yes some congressmen were involved with these decisions, but they can't be completely absolved from this discussion either.

    30. Re:Duh by clarkcox3 · · Score: 1

      A friend of my mother's had been claiming that she had a kid, and was claiming him as a dependent. Luckily, this imaginary kid turned 18 in 1988.

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    31. Re:Duh by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Of course 1+1=1. SchrÃfdinger only had one cat in the box. 1 living cat + 1 dead cat = 1 cat.

      Off topic, but in case nobody's told you before, Schrodinger has 1/sqrt(2) living cats and 1/sqrt(2) dead cats. (Not really, but whatever...)

    32. Re:Duh by vlm · · Score: 1

      Does New York City have a unique political status of which I am unaware?

      Probably not unique, but they certainly have an extremely rare status for the USA ... NYC has a CITY income tax. Yes you heard right, you live in NYC you pay federal, state, and CITY income tax. No, I didn't miswrite property tax or sales tax or misinterpret something, they have a genuine CITY income tax, as in the CITY siphons out a fraction of your income. Ick. Ick. Ick.

      I have thankfully never lived in NYC, but I'd guess, like every other income tax I'm aware of, you get a tiny joke of a credit or deduction on your taxes for each child with a SS number that you list on the form, and NYC probably does the "trust but verify" thing with those SS #s, along with the 50 states, D.C., P.R., etc.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    33. Re:Duh by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

      Special exemptions for New York City are all over state law, usually written as "...except in a city with a population above such-and-such", which obviously means New York City. Really, the New York government views the entire state as the New York City megapolis with some unimportant country hinterland up north. It's frustrating.

    34. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>Someone I knew didn't have one until he was 21, because he didn't have a birth certificate (born at home, no surviving witnesses other than his parents).
      Why didn't you just mention your friend, B. Hussein Obama, by name?

    35. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't you need to toss alien in there also?

    36. Re:Duh by BigGar' · · Score: 1

      That's the summary of the first chapter of DARTH VADER's new book: "LORD VADER'S - The Art of Negotiation: Tips & tactics for getting everything you desire"

      --


      Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
    37. Re:Duh by molo · · Score: 1

      NYC does not have special political status with the feds. But I think perhaps it might have an independent department of records which might predate the state's department.

      -molo

      --
      Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    38. Re:Duh by Zakabog · · Score: 1

      I'm all for automatic tracking of speeding -- IF we get 100% enforcement, no exceptions. If you're not an emergency vehicle WITH LIGHTS ON, you (personally) get a fine.

      May I ask, WHY? Perhaps you live somewhere very residential where the speed limits make sense and the only people speeding are doing it dangerously (swerving in and out of traffic with no signal, following way too closely, etc.) but when I was living in NYC there were roads where the speed limit varied from 35-45 and very few people did under 50. Even on the FDR drive, I think the speed limit is 45, while most traffic is moving at 60. Some speed limits are just not high enough for the road their on, and as long as everyone is speeding together it's quite safe.

      The biggest problem is when one person is moving at a drastically different speed than everyone else, or when people don't stay back far enough from the person in front of them. If everyone on a highway is doing 60, and one person is trying to be "good" by following the speed limit of 45, that person is creating a hazard. Same thing if everyone is doing 60 and one person is doing 75.

      Plus there is no way to really determine what speed every car and driver can safely do on a road. Some roads might be perfectly safe for 65MPH on a clear summers day while in the winter the road might be iced over and dangerous at speeds over 35MPH (like some roads I know in NYC.) Some people might be able to drive safely at a higher speed than others, only speeding in good conditions when there are little to no other drivers on the road, while others can't even drive safely on a road at the posted speed limit.

      So, again, I must ask WHY? Why do you think an automatic ticketing system for speeding would be good?

      Oh, and just so you know, police cars driving at high speeds with their lights on through small windy roads cause all sorts of accidents. Which are ALWAYS determined to be the fault of the person who was hit because the emergency vehicle had it's lights on. Even if they were doing 65 around a blind corner in a residential neighborhood and hit your car that was stopped at a traffic light because they didn't have enough time to slow down or maneuver around you, and you couldn't see their lights to move because they were coming around a corner on a bright sunny day with no siren on.

    39. Re:Duh by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

      If Mr. Obama and I were friends, I probably won't be hanging out on Slashdot very much.

        "Hey B', mind if I borrow a VC-25A, and head down to the Nellis bombing range? General Hoog called, and said they have something "neat" that you may like to see. Something about a hypersonic something. There was a lot of noise in the background, I was having a hard time hearing him. I'll preview it for you, and let you know if it's worth the trip. You know how last time they couldn't even get the thing started. I wouldn't want you to waste a trip." :)

          Ya, no, it wasn't the POTUS. :)

         

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    40. Re:Duh by Ironica · · Score: 1

      It was in writing; that's why "NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" was on the cards. As with other well-known governmental entitites, they chose to change the agreement and inform complainers that they should be hopeful there would be no further changes.

      Uhhh... the problem isn't the government using SSNs for identification (they don't; that's what passports and DLs are for). It's private companies using the SSN to (a) key your information to a (hopefully) unique ID for the purposes of tracking your transactions and records (i.e. credit card bureaus) and (b) verify your identity as though the SSN was a confidential password. They have done these things DESPITE the government asking that the SSN not be used this way, and it's causing all sorts of problems.

      So, apparently, the government has to explicitly prohibit the request of SSNs except in certain whitelisted cases, because if they don't, private entities will ask for it, and mainstream people will provide it.

      --
      Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
    41. Re:Duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is basically the argument made by David Brin's *excellent* "The Transparent Society".

      As long as there is *publicly visible* auditing of the surveillance systems, you don't have to worry as much about people misusing them.

      As long as agency employees are *not* permitted to hide behind their agencies when the misuse their authority.

      See also 42 USC 1983 on this issue; it's *very* interesting reading. Just ask a cop: the MetroDade Florida statutes book many Florida cops carry around has an entire *chapter* on how to not get sued under 1983.

  3. In other words by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Most of the useful "security" characteristics of the SSN are in the last 4 digits.

    If you know the last 4 digits of a SSN, and you get 2 or 3 guesses, then using their model: you can expect to guess the entire SSN correctly.

    1. Re:In other words by Goobermunch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's even better than that. Consider that the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure call for the redaction of all but the last four digits of an individual's social security number if it must be part of a court record (for example a discovery response).

      Much of the discovery I have seen asks for the party's date of birth, place of birth, and social security number. While the rule "protects" the SSN from release by redacting the first five numbers, with a typical set of interrogatory responses, and the techniques pioneered by these researchers, I can get the holy trinity of identity theft information: SSN, DOB, and location of birth.

      Even worse, most of the country now uses PACER for electronic filing in Federal Courts. For $.08/page, anyone can access filings in a Federal case. This seems ripe for abuse.

      --AC

    2. Re:In other words by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Funny, then, that employers put the least common numbers of your SSN on your pay check (as if it were 'randomized' in the same fashion as a credit card, which until fairly recently was pretty damn easy to fake/guess as well).

      I wouldn't be surprised that, in states with lower populations/birth rates, the ease of guessing a person's SSN increases. I remember comparing/talking about SSN with friends in high school; the numbers of the (admittedly small) sample of local-born friends were sequentially matched to their order of birth.

      I'd not be surprised that if you were to get a hold of birth records somewhere for such local areas, with a single SSN/name as a base point, you'd be able to figure out (to fairly high certainty) the specific SSN for quite a few people.

      Likewise, you could probably figure out people's SSN in a deterministic fashion through process of limitation: guess a dozen people's SSNs, and after the 3 that came back positive, you'd have narrowed a smaller set to work with.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    3. Re:In other words by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even worse, most of the country now uses PACER for electronic filing in Federal Courts. For $.08/page, anyone can access filings in a Federal case. This seems ripe for abuse.

      Actually the majority of modern PACER filings redact the SSN. I looked up my bankruptcy case once upon a time and it was redacted in full on the various documents that were available. Some of the older filings leave them exposed though. Remember Mike Tyson? Looked up his Chapter 11 case awhile ago. His SSN is 089-56-9372. Thank you public record!

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      shakrai, meet felony

      felony, meet shakrai

    5. Re:In other words by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      It's a felony to post something from the public record? Interesting. Could you provide the statute number and/or a link?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:In other words by Goobermunch · · Score: 1

      Technically, FRCP 5.2(a) only requires redaction of the first 5 digits. Since these digits are the ones that can easily be guessed, the redaction rules are ineffective at achieving their primary purpose, which is the prevention of the dissemination of an individuals SSN.

      --G

  4. I'm safe! by g1zmo · · Score: 0, Redundant

    It's a good thing they only use the last four digits for identification at my school.

    --
    I have found there are just two ways to go.
    It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow.
    -REK, Jr.
    1. Re:I'm safe! by mysidia · · Score: 2, Informative

      If they are a publicly funded school and utilize parts of your SSN on your student ID, or display it on class rosters, and other places, then they may be in violation of the law. Specifically the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act restrictions:

      One of FERPA's provisions requires written consent for the release of âoeeducational recordsâ or personally identifiable information, with some exceptions. The courts have stated that SSNs fall within this provision. (See Krebs v. Rutgers, 797 F. Supp. 1246 (D.N.J. 1992)).

      Also

      Many states now have laws banning public universities and colleges from using SSNs as student IDs.

    2. Re:I'm safe! by socsoc · · Score: 1

      True, I remember my university having a sudden and mandatory reissue of ID cards because the SSN was encoded on the mag strip (back in 2005).

    3. Re:I'm safe! by bytethese · · Score: 1

      Wow, enacted in 1974 yet SUNY schools used at least the last 4 digits of your SSN in the mid-late 90's. Sheesh!

    4. Re:I'm safe! by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Yes, some of the schools concocted a warped view of the law that allowed them to keep using SSNs to identify students, rather than change their rules and systems after the law came to be (if their view was valid).

      That is, until some were smacked down by the courts in the '90s, at least, asserting for sure that SSNs are PII, and not to be released routinely.

      Large organizations, even non-profit ones, sometimes seem to get the idea that they can ignore the law, or should avoid changing their behavior to follow the spirit of new laws, if the changes required are inconvenient.

      But since 2000, they've had approximately 30 years to adapt to new rules, and the risks of identity theft are very real and well-known, there is simply no bonafide excuse for lack of respect of student privacy, or use of SSNs as IDs....

  5. Naught by sexconker · · Score: 4, Funny

    Naught Naught Naught Naught Naught Naught Naught Naught Two.

    Damn Roosevelt!

  6. Why guess? by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who needs to guess when it's so easy to get someone to just give you their social security number if you just present a vaguely legitimate reason? For instance, I could pretend to be hiring people for a new business I am opening. Pretty much every application I've ever filled out has asked for a social security number.

    I could also see this technique being combined for some nasty phishing methods. Set up a fake credit check website, ask for their date of birth, the security question is their place of birth, and the last four digits of their social security number is their pin number. Using the technique of these researchers, you can guess a significant portion of people's SS numbers. 40% is probably a huge number for phishing, where most people avoid them, but by shear volume enough get caught to make money off it.

    1. Re:Why guess? by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There was a scam going on here in Ontario with the same premise a few years ago. They would advertise a job in a local paper. Get you to send in a resume. Then call you up and give you a fake interview. A few days later, they'd call and say they were considering you for a position and ask you to send all the information to them (DOB, Name, SIN (Social Insurance Number, same as SSN)) plus a bunch of other personally identifying information. People who were pretty desperate for a job would send give them all the info, and then they would have their identity a couple days later. Really ingenious scam when you think about it. When everybody else is watching out for phishing sites, these guys were just using old technology to collect all the information. Problem is, is that once the police figured it out, it was very easy to trace back to the scammers.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Why guess? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      It's already common practice for ID thieves to troll Monster and Craigslist posing as potential employers. In most cases, the fake employers are easy to spot, but I imagine the technique will become more sophisticated in the future, if it hasn't already.

    3. Re:Why guess? by nmb3000 · · Score: 1

      Pretty much every application I've ever filled out has asked for a social security number.

      This is why I've adopted the practice of simply writing "N/A", "-----", or just nothing when asked for a SSN. It's incredibly uncommon that they actually need that information, usually it's just stuck on there because the person making the form figures it should be on it. Go to a doctor of any kind? Don't need it unless you're processing your payment through insurance (and not even always then). I'll bet that in all the forms you fill out, maybe 10% have a legitimate need to know your SSN, and those are almost always employment applications.

      They can always ask again or press the issue if it's really needed. Why just hand out sensitive information because some random piece of paper asks you to? I wonder how many people would fill in credit card numbers, bank account passwords, and mother's maiden name when asked to sign up for a grocery store "savings" card?

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    4. Re:Why guess? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Another problem - you end up with the information of people who are desperate for jobs instead of people who have steady jobs and good credit.

    5. Re:Why guess? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hav lots of monies in bank waiting for me,
      Give your number and I get rich for us
      Then the womans loves us!!!!!
      Clikc here :::)))!

    6. Re:Why guess? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Credit is credit, and almost anyone can qualify for new accounts.

      A good way to do this would be to advertise summer jobs right after college terms are over. College students are well known for being offered new credit constantly, and not keeping track of their credit rating at all.

    7. Re:Why guess? by daath93 · · Score: 1

      Legally no employer has the right to request your social security number until they hire you. Social security wont even verify any information you provide to them until they have already hired you. So them asking for it prior to hire is simply for their convenience.

    8. Re:Why guess? by afabbro · · Score: 2, Informative

      Pretty much every application I've ever filled out has asked for a social security number.

      This is why I've adopted the practice of simply writing "N/A", "-----", or just nothing when asked for a SSN. It's incredibly uncommon that they actually need that information

      Ahem...your employer definitely has a legitimate need for that information since they're taking money out of your paycheck to pay your Social Security. You won't get a job without an SSN, so write "N/A" all you like - makes the job market larger for the rest of us.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    9. Re:Why guess? by jra · · Score: 1

      No, you write "supplied on hire", and then you write it on the W-4.

    10. Re:Why guess? by Teancum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ahem...your employer definitely has a legitimate need for that information since they're taking money out of your paycheck to pay your Social Security. You won't get a job without an SSN, so write "N/A" all you like - makes the job market larger for the rest of us.

      The SSN should not be on the employment application.... which was the point. Once you have been hired and are filling things out like I-9 documention and the W-4 forms that are explicitly for taxation purposes would the information have to actually be disclosed to an employer. Until then, the only legitimate purpose of asking for the SSN would be to use it for identification purposes... or to do things like performing a credit check on a future employee without their consent.

      Still, it is something that would make you stick out as a potential troublemaker when applying for a job, and something that may be used as rationale for not hiring a potential candidate... even if demanding the information is illegal and could land the potential employer in legal trouble if a consistent pattern of turning down applications was based on this criteria.

    11. Re:Why guess? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm actually not sure how many employers require an SSN, but every employer that I've encountered had options which included allowing you to receive a check each month and thus handle taxes yourself.

    12. Re:Why guess? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your EMPLOYER needs that information, but until you are hired they are not your employer and have no need for it. A job application and a resume should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER include a Social Security Number.

      The only time a potential employer would need that information is for positions that involve contact with large sums of money, positions that require a security clearance, positions dealing with sevsitive information, etc., as they would need to run background checks, credit reports and things like that. However, even those positions don't need that information for the application process, by the time they are asking for it you should be well into the hiring process and a serious candidate for the position.

      If someone is demanding a SSN on an application just tell them you are no longer interested, and get up and walk away. It's either a scam, or the person has absolutely no clue what they ar doing, in either case you don't want to work for them.

    13. Re:Why guess? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could also see this technique being combined for some nasty phishing methods. Set up a fake credit check website, ask for their date of birth, the security question is their place of birth, and the last four digits of their social security number is their pin number. Using the technique of these researchers, you can guess a significant portion of people's SS numbers..

      If its a "credit check website", I'm asking for the SSN outright....how else would I check their credit?

    14. Re:Why guess? by maxume · · Score: 1

      An ingenious way to scrape the bottom of the financial barrel. I can see it now, the fraud artists goes to a bank to get a credit card and... "Well Mr. Troy, we can give you a card with a credit limit of $1,000, or a secured card with a limit of $2,000".

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  7. Hardly news by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    Not news to anyone who knows how SSN assignment works. The first three digits (region code) have always been assigned based on state (with a few exceptions for things like Railroad Retirement and military uses), and since a new region code's only assigned to a state when the old one's nearly exhausted there's usually only a short period when there's 2 regions in use for a state. The middle 2 digits (group code) have always been assigned in a strict order as groups are exhausted. And SSNs are generally only assigned at 2 times: birth, or the first time someone gets a job and has to pay taxes (usually in high school). So if you know the state and date of someone's birth and where they went to high school, it's long been known that you can narrow it down to only a small handful of possible region and group codes. The only thing this research does is extend that into the last 4 digits, and I'm not surprised they found those assigned in some order over time. If I had to guess, frankly I'd've guessed that the last 4 digits were just assigned in order starting from 0000 with a new group code being assigned around 9900.

    1. Re:Hardly news by value_added · · Score: 0

      And SSNs are generally only assigned at 2 times: birth, or the first time someone gets a job and has to pay taxes (usually in high school).

      Or when becoming a naturalised citizen.

      I received my SS card 15 years before my green card was (finally) approved. Translated, that means I was able to pay taxes, but lacked the legal right to work.

    2. Re:Hardly news by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not news to anyone who knows how SSN assignment works.

      Yes it is. Knowing it's theoretically possible to figure it out is one thing. Someone actually demonstrating it can be done with high success rate is another. And it's news that matters because maybe this will force some change on the issue, dispels the illusion that it's a super secret identifying code that only you and X large organization knows. ...and maybe there will be a pony waiting for me at home...

    3. Re:Hardly news by bertoelcon · · Score: 1
      Is that Government at its finest? "You can pay us for the things we do for you, but you are not allowed to work here."

      Just wondering do you have to fill out tax forms in the US since you have a SSN so they can not come back later and say you evaded paying taxes for those 15 years?

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
  8. This isn't really new by Ark42 · · Score: 1

    This isn't really new as the first 3 digits of your SSN already tell you which state you were born in more or less - http://www.google.com/search?q=ssn+by+state and the numbers are issued pretty sequentially from there, so just the year you were born and the state you were born in narrows it down pretty far already.

    1. Re:This isn't really new by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      Not quite - I was born in 1976 in Utah, but the first part of my SSN is Oregon range. You'd have to be born in 1989 or 1990 or later for this to work as SSN's weren't issued automagically until then (I got my SSN when I was like 15 or 16 as an example).

  9. Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by StormReaver · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I was young, the back of my social security card has a notice: "Not to be used for identification purposes" (or something similar). When I lost my original card and had to get a replacement, the notice was missing. Our government is solely to blame for allowing the private sector to use social security numbers as identifiers. Congress has had an overabundance of time to pass laws criminalizing the use of social security numbers by the private sector. In my opinion, Congress has been criminally negligent in allowing this to continue for this long.

    Social security numbers should be used for one, and only one, purpose: to link an individual to social security benefits. Any other use should be a criminal offense.

    1. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Formica · · Score: 5, Informative
    2. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Short+Circuit · · Score: 0, Troll

      In my opinion, Congress has been criminally negligent in allowing this to continue for this long.

      Because Congress must pass laws to protect us from ourselves?

    3. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by The+Grim+Reefer2 · · Score: 1

      When I was young, the back of my social security card has a notice: "Not to be used for identification purposes" (or something similar). When I lost my original card and had to get a replacement, the notice was missing.

      I still have my original, and it does state it. I always assumed that it was still the case, I guess spammers have a better lobby than we thought. ;-)

       

      Our government is solely to blame for allowing the private sector to use social security numbers as identifiers. Congress has had an overabundance of time to pass laws criminalizing the use of social security numbers by the private sector. In my opinion, Congress has been criminally negligent in allowing this to continue for this long.

      I agree, but I'd like to know how you plan to punish them. Obviously voting them out of office hasn't worked out so well. Besides, there are probably many more injustices that are far worse that they should be held accountable for.

       

      Social security numbers should be used for one, and only one, purpose: to link an individual to social security benefits. Any other use should be a criminal offense.

      I've always refused to give out my social security number other than after I've been hired by an employer. I've lived in several states over the years and many used to use your social security number as your drivers license number. I never understood why people would choose to use it when the option to not do so was offered. Usually the reason was an excuse of pure laziness, "I don't want to have to remember another number". I also remember when businesses would try to claim that you were required to write you social on a check for them to accept it as payment.

    4. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by frosty_tsm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because Congress must pass laws to protect us from ourselves?

      You can hardly call this protecting us from ourselves when everything from employment to apartment rental to cell phone plans to education require SSNs.

    5. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      The US government is responsible for Social Security Numbers, yes. If the security of that system is vulnerable to social engineering, then it should take reasonable steps to eliminate that security hole.

    6. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can hardly call this protecting us from ourselves when everything from employment to apartment rental to cell phone plans to education require SSNs.

      Actually you are welcome to refuse to give out your SSN for any of those purposes. Of course the person on the other end of the business arrangement is also welcome to refuse to do business with you.....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    7. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      Employment requires it because the large chunk of your taxes are targeted at funding the Social Security program, and your employer is required to contribute before you even get your check. Granted, it goes to someone else's benefits right now, but the program is naively designed under the assumption that someone else's taxes will be paying your benefits in the future.

      As for apartment rental, cell phone plans and education, are there legal requirements for them to demand your SSNs? If not, then it's the fault of that particular institution. If so, then those laws are in conflict, sure, and need to be fixed. If not, then find arrangements that don't require your SSN. That can be anything from using a Wifi phone with a WISP to getting a prepay phone to getting a roommate who's willing to put his SSN on the paper.

      Millions of illegal immigrants get by without legitimate SSNs. Try finding and talking to a few to find out what approaches are available that don't involve falsifying one.

      I don't have a good alternative for education, though I've heard there are a few institutions that cater to people without legitimate SSNs, and don't get shut down; It must be possible for them to do it without one.

    8. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      I agree, but I'd like to know how you plan to punish them.

      That is certainly the problem. It's a "who watches the watchers" conundrum. Congress needs to be punished for many misdeeds, but it's Congress that determines what's punishable. It's no secret how they're going to view this.

    9. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Actually you are welcome to refuse to give out your SSN for any of those purposes. Of course the person on the other end of the business arrangement is also welcome to refuse to do business with you.....

      And the current story proves that even that is pretty useless.

    10. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "The US government is responsible for Social Security Numbers, yes. If the security of that system is vulnerable to social engineering, then it should take reasonable steps to eliminate that security hole."

      And what exactly the security problem is?

      Let's accept that SSNs are in fact unique. Then, what's the problem with using them in order to qualify you as "you"? And provided that SSNs are a good and acepted way to stablish you as "you" what's the problem with letting know your SSN to whichever you want to know you as "you"? There should be no problem to tell your SSN to whichever you would say your name since they are the same thing.

      And then here comes the problem: you can't get into a bank and retire the founds of John Smith just by saying "Hi, I'm John Smith and I want all my money" still you can do quite a lot of things by the equivalent of "Hi, I'm 12355564899 and I want all my money". That's the stupid part, giving more authority to someone saying -and I mean plain saying, "I'm 12355564899" than "I'm John Smith" when they both are basically the same thing.

    11. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by CoffeePlease · · Score: 1

      Beautifully said. I can't understand why there isn't more public outcry about the use off SSN's, and the generally shoddy security systems of bank, credit, etc.

    12. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      And the current story proves that even that is pretty useless.

      Yeah, it's useless. So you take steps to protect yourself. In many states (NYS included) you can freeze your credit files for free and require a password and/or pin number before someone can apply for credit in your name. In other states you can do it for a small (usually

      Maybe I should start a business teaching people common sense like this. Or I could start another business charging them money for doing what they can do for free themselves. Maybe I'll get some crazy jackass willing to have his own SSN posted on billboards to sell it for me. Yeah, that could work..... ??? Profit!

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    13. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Rocketship+Underpant · · Score: 1

      The federal government *wants* you to rely on your social security card and number for identification. Know why? So you become dependent on it. So you cannot open a bank account or rent a video or buy gum without it. So that if you ever opt out of their little social "security" system, you'll face greater consequences than merely being free of a pyramid scheme.

      --
      He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
    14. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Using it for identity isn't that big a deal. Using it for authentication of identity is the problem.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    15. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure I had to use my SS card for ID- needed to get a minor's work permit in New York state, I think. Pain in the ass, but they did require my actual social security card, not just the number, for ID.

    16. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by Biswalt · · Score: 1

      I disagree because they are basically interchangeable with other known data about a person like when and where they were born, so the trend is going to be toward more and more known SSN's, once you know one area-group-serial number the odds of guessing the other numbers in that same area-group combo (or zipcode) rise slightly, meaning that inevitably all social security numbers will be known. So trying to make them secretive just won't work. The problem is that the private sector wants to use them as a way of authenticating who people are; say we have Maribel Barnes of 123 Main St. Boise Id. 83702 or we could call her 518-83-0001. The problem is the private sector wants to use the number as a check to see that you're really you when making a change. But as I've pointed out as you know more and more SSNs the chance of knowing other SSNs by default rises such that eventually as long as birth records remain intact and some known SSN database was kept you'd be able to eventually know everybody's SSN. So asking Maribel to authenticate who she is with her SSN is kind of pointless because someone who has bothered to learn her place of birth and birth date already knows the first 5 digits of the SSN.

    17. Re:Social Security Numbers As Identifiers by sorak · · Score: 1

      You can hardly call this protecting us from ourselves when everything from employment to apartment rental to cell phone plans to education require SSNs.

      Actually you are welcome to refuse to give out your SSN for any of those purposes. Of course the person on the other end of the business arrangement is also welcome to refuse to do business with you.....

      So, you're in the clear as long as you don't mind being homeless, unemployed, and uneducated?

  10. Old news... by The+Pirou · · Score: 1

    With a simple social engineering question of 'where are you from, where where you born?,' that most people think nothing of, you are able to easily acquire the first 3/8 digits of someone's SSN (and the answer to 15% of the standard security questions out there). The rest is just a matter of time and patience.

    Honestly, this topic was covered for the umpteenth time when 2600 magazine did it over 10 years ago in a quarterly format available at most Barnes & Nobles stores (if you didn't have a home subscription). I can't lay my hand on the issue without doing a bothersome search of my closet, but really, this is old hat.

    I don't know which is worse, the fact that this is making news now, or the fact that I pretty much outed myself as being from the era of AOL script kiddies. I'm sure Phrack or somewhere else probably covered this way before 2600 did. Nothing changes...

  11. Common knowledge by DigitalCrackPipe · · Score: 0, Redundant

    who for the first time

    For the first time? Is this a joke? The pattern of assignment has been well known for years, whereby everybody born in an area at a particular time had the same prefix.

    Any scheme that uses the first 5 digits for authentication is utter crap. It's almost as dumb as using telephone area codes.

    1. Re:Common knowledge by Jimmy+King · · Score: 1

      That was my first thought when I read this, too. I immediately went and double checked to make sure I was remembering right. I need to become a researcher. That job sounds way easier than mine.

  12. Damned if you do, damned if you don't by Palestrina · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If we all have unique id numbers to identify us, then someone can impersonate us by knowing that number.

    But of course, if we did not have unique id numbers to identify us it would be even easier for someone to impersonate us.

    And however many digits the number is, and even if it is randomly-generated (as the article proposes) your id number is only as strong as the weakest link among those who have stored your id, meaning the used car dealer, the credit card company, the student loan office, etc.

    It is guaranteed to fail since they all involve transmitting and storing the secret.

    What we need is a national public key infrastructure, with keys stored on smart cards, or similar, along the lines of what they have in Belgium. Of course, even PKI fails in the face of social engineering, so we need citizens to be more aware of the risks as well.

    1. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Identification != authentication. Failure to understand that is the problem.

      Take your e-mail account. Your username identifies you. Your password authenticates you. Your provider (and everyone else in the world) use your username or e-mail address to identify you or to identify who they're sending their mail to. But when you go to log on to read your mail your provider doesn't just assume that if you know who you are that you're authorized to read your e-mail. They ask for your password (which you don't give out to anybody else) to authenticate that you're really who you're claiming to be.

      The basic problem is that a lot of businesses want to verify your identity, but they want to do it fast and not waste time or resources actually authenticating you. So they've taken shortcuts. And now it's biting them, and they want someone to make the problem go away. Note: they do not want to fix the problem. To quote someone, "When the users say "When I drop this bowling ball on my foot it hurts. Make it stop hurting.", they mean just that. They don't want to stop dropping the bowling ball on their foot. They want you to make it not hurt when they do.".

    2. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by Bovius · · Score: 1

      there is no fool-proof method for protecting a person's Social Security Number

      Fixed that for you, article summary.

    3. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      If we all have unique id numbers to identify us, then someone can impersonate us by knowing that number. But of course, if we did not have unique id numbers to identify us it would be even easier for someone to impersonate us.

      Without ID: "I am Napoleon!" "Here's a white coat, sire. Long Sleeves, befitting Imperial majesty."
      With ID: "I am Napoleon! Release me!" *displays falsified ID* "At once! Please forgive us you majesty!"
      In other words, once people get used to using ID numbers, they stop getting used to thinking and using webs of trust. "I called Jim over in the hospital, Mr. Napoleon. It seems he knows you. He's coming by to visit you in a few minutes. Juice?"

    4. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But of course, if we did not have unique id numbers to identify us it would be even easier for someone to impersonate us.

      Not really. If I'm John Doe, and somebody else claims to be John Doe, you can't assume they're the same person. It requires some actual investigation to do.

      However, if I'm John Doe SSN 123-45-6789 and somebody else claims to be John Doe SSN 123-45-6789, it's too easy to assume they're the same person.

      Personally I always thought nobody should have to have a public identity. Somehow the concept seemed antithetical to freedom to me. Now that I've seen how our identities are abused, I'm sure of it. Identity is never for our benefit. It's only used so corporations can abuse us.

    5. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "If we all have unique id numbers to identify us, then someone can impersonate us by knowing that number."

      That's plain stupid.

      Here, on Slashdot you are identified as Palestrina. If you were right I could impersonate you on Slashdot by knowing that you are identified here as Palestrina which I already know. See the stupidness? One thing is your identification which, by definition must be public, and a completly different thing is how to stablish the link between you, the real person, and your identifying tag. Obviously doing it by the fact that you know a public identity seems to be not quite an intelligent movement.

    6. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by Toonol · · Score: 1

      If we're GOING to have a single unique index for each citizen, sure, encrypt it and make it difficult to pull. But still, it'll leak. I think I'd rather have a simple card with a nine digit number, but make it DIFFERENT for every purpose. I want one number for taxes, a different number for credit, a different number for each and every business that I transact with. If somebody can crack my number for a single credit card, fine. It won't ruin my entire life. The problem with the SS# is not that it's so easy to crack or obtain; it's that it's a single point of failure for nearly every financial aspect of your life.

    7. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Without ID: "I am Napoleon!" "Here's a white coat, sire. Long Sleeves, befitting Imperial majesty."
        With ID: "I am Napoleon! Release me!" *displays falsified ID* "At once! Please forgive us you majesty!""

      And then you are basically talking about a no-problem.

      Without money, at the restaurant: I'm hungry, give me a roast-beef. Sorry sir, no money, no menu.
      With falsified money, at the restaurant: I'm hungry, give me a roast-beff. Well, in theory the restaurant owner has now a problem, in fact, falsified money is not such a big deal: we know how to make good enough bank notes.

      A falsified ID is a theoretical problem too, that any citizen on countries with ID cards will confirm you to be "not such a big deal" either (even less than falsified money: since there are much, much less ID cards than bank notes, they are quite harder to falsify too).

    8. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      This is the reason why identification by numbers sucks. A photo ID is a much better method of identification - it doesn't need to be stored and it is (yet) difficult to steal a face.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    9. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have identified the key point about this whole SSN business. Why do so many people not see this? The SSN is basically like a name. Knowing someone's name does not mean that they are that person.

    10. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by vlm · · Score: 1

      A photo ID is a much better method of identification - it doesn't need to be stored and it is (yet) difficult to steal a face.

      Yer not trying very hard then... "Uh sir, I lost my I.D., could you issue me another". Works especially well if you look kind of like the person. Flickr and the other web 2.0 sites are quite helpful in finding people whom "look kind of like you" along with enough personal info to get past any questions, unless you look like a total space alien or something.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    11. Re:Damned if you do, damned if you don't by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      In the reality, things don't work that way. If you have lost your ID you will have to prove your identity in some other way (for example a birth certificate) to get a new one. So you'll have to forge the face, the birth certificate and the signature and when the new ID is printed, the owner of the ID will be informed by mail to his home (so you'll have to have access to their letterbox as well).

      That is a lot of work compared to guessing someone's SSN, isn't it?

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  13. Its pretty sad by scorp1us · · Score: 1

    When we put more consideration into TCP ISNs than we do an identifier someone has for life. We even worked hard to randomize this so that the connection is not easy to hijack if SSNs are being sent.

    --
    Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
  14. Time to start using UUID/GUIDs by stickrnan · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think 8e019226-9a00-41f4-b094-6f1545fd84a9 should be fairly easy to remember.

    1. Re:Time to start using UUID/GUIDs by JaneTheIgnorantSlut · · Score: 1

      Hey! That's my ID, you insensitive clod!

    2. Re:Time to start using UUID/GUIDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      That's the same as the combination to my luggage.

    3. Re:Time to start using UUID/GUIDs by PsychoSlashDot · · Score: 1

      I think 8e019226-9a00-41f4-b094-6f1545fd84a9 should be fairly easy to remember.

      Throw a couple colons in there somewhere and I'd have guessed that was an IPv6 address. Probably something simple like the default address for a Linksys residential router. "Simply type http://8e01::9226:9a00:41f4:b094::6f1545fd84a9 into your web browser to launch our easy setup wizard (which requires Java 1.6.0.23.0.5b, no more, no less). When asked for a username, use admin and when asked for a password, type the first 42 digits of pi in reversed order. Thank you for your purchase."

      --
      "Oh no... he found the .sig setting."
    4. Re:Time to start using UUID/GUIDs by grcumb · · Score: 1

      I think 8e019226-9a00-41f4-b094-6f1545fd84a9 should be fairly easy to remember.

      It's even easier when you remember that it's pronounced 'Basil'...

      ...In Vogon.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  15. The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by raddan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because SSNs are supposed to be unique identifiers. Identifiers only. The problem is that they're also being used as the shared secret! There's nothing secret about an SSN, people, and there shouldn't be. I think at this point, the government needs to simply legislate the correct behavior, because companies like Comcast (who asked me for my SSN for 'security reasons' just the other day) just don't get it. Of course, getting the government to know the 'correct behavior' is yet another battle...

    1. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by Ron+Bennett · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're spot on about SSN being an identifier only, and was not intended to be a secret.

      However, SSNs were never designed to be unique; they are not!

      SSNs can be recycled. And it's also possible, though difficult, for one to obtain a new SSN.

      In addition, many SSNs are assigned to more than one person - so common that the IRS, as well as many other government agencies, as well as the major credit bureaus, utilize software that allows for SSN duplicates and doesn't rely on SSNs alone to separate people.

      Ron

    2. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by thisissilly · · Score: 1

      What the parent said. SSN should only be used as a uniquifier, to distinguish John Smith 123-45-6789 from John Smith 123-99-4321. The government should pick a date, say 5 years from now, and state that on that date they will publish the full list of Name & SSN data. Everyone using SSN as a shared secret must fix their databases.

    3. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by izomiac · · Score: 1

      Or they could just remind people that they aren't secret, and post a public database of everyone's name/SSN online. No legislation necessary, and businesses don't have to switch their software that (foolishly?) uses SSNs as ID numbers.
       
      Actually, come to think of it, the government isn't the only one who could do this. A cracker or disgruntled employee of a large company could effectively make this happen. I'm half surprised that it hasn't already...

    4. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

      5 years would be long enough for them to cancel the system publishing after it would be announced.

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    5. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by drfreak · · Score: 1

      It is interesting that HIPAA abolished all references to SSNs in medical data. Member IDs used to be commonly be based on socials pre-2004 or so, when they were promptly changed to different identifiers; all with their own scheme per-healthplan. Based on the speed of health care innovation, it seems like for once every one else must catch up.

    6. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by Biswalt · · Score: 1

      Yeah, b/c basically all you are doing is breaking down when and where some specific person was born so that government computers can take "John Smith of 123 Main St Idaho City, ID 83631" and Turn him into 518-83-1234 for organizational purposes.

    7. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      The government should pick a date, say 5 years from now, and state that on that date they will publish the full list of Name & SSN data. Everyone using SSN as a shared secret must fix their databases.

      Even if they only published a list of names, and omitted the SSNs, that would be an act of immense evil.

    8. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by thisissilly · · Score: 1

      Even if they only published a list of names, and omitted the SSNs, that would be an act of immense evil.

      Oh yes, because a publishing a list of names of people in this country would be so evil. You know what would be even eviler than that? A list of names, with phone numbers! And maybe even addresses! They could call it a "phone book".

    9. Re:The problem is not that SSNs are easy to guess by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The publishing of phone books without permission of those whose personal information is listed therein is evil.

  16. CMU + SSN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hehehe... about 10 years ago CMU was using SSN's as Student ID's.... and CMU researchers were using university data including student ID's in research they were publishing on the web(without notifying students)... oops.

    why it pays to google for your SSN every once in a while. ;)

    1. Re:CMU + SSN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They still used SSNs as Student IDs for the class of 2009.

    2. Re:CMU + SSN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol... I wonder if the international kids are still 999*

    3. Re:CMU + SSN by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 1

      Heh. At Virginia Tech in the early '80's, they used SSN's as student ID's, too. Test results and grades would be posted on the doors of classrooms, identified by SSN with names omitted, for "privacy". Of course, the lists were still sorted alphabetically by name.

  17. That is the problem when using SSN as ID by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you use just a number for identification, it will be grossly misused. It is crazy to oppose a real ID card but use a much weaker (in terms of security) SSN as identification means and suddenly a baseless fear of certain forms of identification opens the way to very bad forms of identity theft.

    --
    "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    1. Re:That is the problem when using SSN as ID by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The problem with a real ID card is that it would just be another number if we did it right now. Although the technology exists to do far better, the mindshare of cryptography is appallingly low.

      We really need a "cryptology spokesman" with charisma to go out there and extol the virtues of not blabbing your freakin' financial information to everyone who asks. Or having a stupid number somewhere that does the same crap for you.

      Not being careful with your personal data is like not being careful with your personal genitals. The more people you allow to access either, the more likely something very bad will happen.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:That is the problem when using SSN as ID by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not if the number of the real ID would be just its serial number and meaningless otherwise. Since the ID card itself is a proof of your identity, the number of it wouldn't be saved anywhere.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    3. Re:That is the problem when using SSN as ID by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      We really need a "cryptology spokesman" with charisma to go out there and extol the virtues of not blabbing your freakin' financial information to everyone who asks. Or having a stupid number somewhere that does the same crap for you.

      A cryptology spokesman would know that telling people your identifier would be no different to telling them your email address. It is an identifier used by the government for various purposes, not a secret passcode known only to you, or the equivalent of a private encryption key.

      It is not the equivalent to blabbing your financial information, and if some company thinks it is, they have a problem, not you.

    4. Re:That is the problem when using SSN as ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You both have a problem. Your problem is, at the moment, bigger, for the simple reason that at the moment, someone with the right information and no secrets (like a password or even a public key) can convince the company to release money from your accounts.

      For instance, if you copy down the numbers at the bottom of someone's personal check, you have all the information you need to do pretty much whatever you want.

      Such a person can bankrupt you without really affecting the company's bottom line, and the laws don't seem to punish the companies much for their complacency, making your problem much bigger, relatively speaking, and giving the companies no reason to rectify the situation.

      Two things should be the case as we move toward virtual currency:

      1. An identifier should be required for any transaction. An identifier is not a secret however.
      2. A secret should be required for every transaction. What form this secret takes may depend upon the purpose.

      Also, your combination of identifier and secret for any given transaction should have a limited duration and amount, so no one has the keys to completely drain your account.

      And probably even that is way oversimplified. A bona fide cryptography expert could probably make recommendations that are relatively secure, and a cryptography booster would, hopefully, be able to convince people of both the fact and the need.

    5. Re:That is the problem when using SSN as ID by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      For instance, if you copy down the numbers at the bottom of someone's personal check, you have all the information you need to do pretty much whatever you want.

      In the country I live in, banks are not insane enough to allow access to an account, let alone drawing on that account, without proof of ID. Is that not the case in the US? If someone did manage to forge a cheque, the money would be restored as soon as the fraud was noticed - the bank is liable, not the customer.

      If your bank does allow this, and doesn't offer fraud protection, I'd switch bank pronto, and quit worrying about SSNs, as those are the least of your problems.

      It doesn't take a cryptography expert to recognise that an identifier is not a secret, and I'm mystified as to why the SSN is treated as some kind of special secret code.

  18. Tell me something I didn't already know. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is old news, especially to me. I used this method to invent a plausible SSN for Michael J. Volpe, my legal-drinking-age alter ago when I was in college. I figured that as long as I had a fake ID, I'd see if I could use it to leverage myself into a false identity too. The number I used had the right digits for his supposed data and place of birth; the rest was just random. I never got any real documentation or credit accounts issued for Michael, but that was only because I ran into bootstrapping issues using a SSN with no history, not because the SSN was recognized by anyone as invalid.

  19. good thing I was born in 1987 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'll never be able to figure out my SSN. 754-6523. No pattern to that one.

  20. fool-proof method -- who cares? by whoever57 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    'there is no fool-proof method for predicting a person's Social Security Number.'"

    Who cares that there is no fool-proof method? All that matters is that there is a significant probablilty of success.

    Probably the only people who are safe from this are immigrants!

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  21. I call bullshit. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

    A Social Security Administration spokesman said the government has long cautioned the private sector against using a social security number as a personal identifier, even as it insists 'there is no fool-proof method for predicting a person's Social Security Number.'

    Yeah, maybe with a wink and a nod. Social Security cards used to say "Not to be used for Identification" or words to that effect written on them in bright red ink. If the Federal Government was serious about not having the private sector use the number for identification purposes, they'd ban the practice.

    LK

    --
    "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    1. Re:I call bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most annoying expression ever!

    2. Re:I call bullshit. by afidel · · Score: 1

      Uh, it WAS banned and after industry cried that the government had gone and made a standard identifier and was keeping it to themselves they went and unbanned it! In fact from my reading the social security act might never have passed if an amendment hadn't been added to require that the SS number be used only for the administration of SS benefits. It was another case of wise men seeing the future coming and almost heading it off, but failing by assuming that the men that would follow them would be as wise.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  22. Sorry: Not News by WheelDweller · · Score: 0

    I saw a guy on one of those shows...might have been Donahue, do that knowing only the guy's age and state....verifying whether it was the right number.

    The whole SSN thing is such a misnomer. There's only so many digits; people think every number has one person....it doesn't work that way. Instead, it's intended to weed out the (possibly) 10,000,000 "Joe Smiths" out there.

    --
    --- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
    1. Re:Sorry: Not News by tverbeek · · Score: 0

      "There's only so many digits; people think every number has one person....it doesn't work that way."

      Um, yes, it does. To be more precise, there are nine digits, which allows them to specify one billion different people without assigning two of them the same number. The population of the U.S. is less than a third of that, with dead people whose SSNs are used up we're still at less than half. Granted, in a few generations there will be allocation problems with the current algorithm, and they'll have to start reallocating numbers, then assigning the remaining ones randomly, and eventually we'll have a big "SSN1G" crisis when we switch to 10-digit SSNs. But for now, it really and truly is 1 SSN to 1 person.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    2. Re:Sorry: Not News by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      absolutely false, since I've worked with this issue: duplicate issuing of numbers is detected in over 4,000 tax returns per year in the USA - other means are used to help identify unique people. So problem is probably on the order of 10,000 duplicate numbers in existence.

  23. This problem will go away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once we make the switch to SSNv6.

    1. Re:This problem will go away by $pace6host · · Score: 1

      I've managed to avoid the problem with SSNv4 using private SSN domains, and SSNT (SSN Translation).

  24. Ran into this a few years ago... by moniker · · Score: 1

    Having worked in IT for 9 years at a college, this kind of thing is a nightmare.

    One application we used for tracking students allowed a student to enter their SSN, which would then be replaced by their benign student ID and display their name. Even something like this is pretty dangerous.

    If I know that most students at the college are going to be residents of a certain, I can limit myself to searching just for SSNs assigned to that state by looking at the first three numbers. The next two numbers are the assignment group, which will vary based on when the SSN was assigned.

    But, being from the same area, it was even easier than that. I could assume that there is a good chance that someone might be born in my state and assigned an SSN in the same group as me, which means I only have to guess the last four numbers, starting with the same five numbers that I have. (As a DBA, I had access to all of this information anyways.)

    Starting with my SSN, I began incrementing by one. It only took six increments to reach another persons SSN. By using this application, I could type in my variations of a known SSN and find new SSNs, along with the name of the person who belongs to that SSN.

    Out of curiosity, I did a 'group by' query on the first five numbers of all the SSNs in the database (roughly 60k SSNs) and found that in the most populous grouping, you would have a 1 in 20 chance of getting an SSN just by guessing the last four numbers of this group.

    1. Re:Ran into this a few years ago... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Did you get fired for this?

      Also, how bout you tell us the college so we know to tell people to run away screaming?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  25. I always use my State Driver License ID number by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    which I selected to not be my social security number.

    The State ID number is a random series of letters and numbers and it is harder to guess.

    The usual jokes like Ronald Reagan's social security number was 000-00-0002 because he was the second person to file behind FDR, are funny but historically inaccurate.

    Illegal Immigrants or Undocumented Workers or whatever you want to call them easily generate fake SSNs, and a bulk of them use the same SSN for the same employer and it is usually a SSN of someone who died, and they got it off a death certificate. The current system of checking SSNs is broken.

    What we need is a different system that is harder to guess, one that uses letters and numbers like license plates or software serial numbers. One that Social Security keeps on a secure system that can verify the numbers and tell if the new SSN is stolen or the owner of the SSN is dead and someone else may be using it for fraud.

    I just hope the new system isn't abused to take away rights and freedoms, that would be bad.

    I remember the colleges I went to use to use our SSN as our student number and it was on grade lists. I requested that I be issued a student number not based on my SSN for privacy reasons and they did issue me a student number different from my SSN. The grade lists would be student name, student number, and then grade issued in class and everyone could see them. The professors listed them by the door for the classroom after finals and midterm grades were calculated. Many other systems used to base employee number etc on SSNs.

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:I always use my State Driver License ID number by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      No, what we need is some kind of pairing device. Your name ought to be a sufficient identifier, or your name plus a number if you couldn't think of an original name....

      But if you want two groups to be able to share information on your behalf (say, a bank and a utility), there ought to be some kind of pairing process like with bluetooth, or SSL, or wireless networking...

      Ideally, there would be some kind of smart device, possibly about the size of a library card so it would be convenient that could store and compute the "keys" to establish links.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:I always use my State Driver License ID number by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 1

      The State ID number is a random series of letters and numbers and it is harder to guess

      In New Hampshire, if you know somebody's name, DOB and a couple of other things you can extrapolate someone's driver's license number. (I can't remember what else was in there and they confiscated it when I got my PA one. Eye color, maybe.)

      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
    3. Re:I always use my State Driver License ID number by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Name is not always enough, suppose you have two people named John Smith etc you have to include student number or employee number etc to show the difference.

      The federal government wanted to do a Real ID program, but privacy activists were against it claiming it would take away the freedom of privacy. Others claim it is the mark of the beast or something. It would be the size of a library card with an RFID chip that contains the "key" code to identify a person, etc.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    4. Re:I always use my State Driver License ID number by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in '93 I took a grad school class at the University of Maryland at College Park. Their paperwork asked for a SSN and I appended a statement declining to provide one, because admission to college is NOT one of the enumerated uses for which a government agency can require one. So they issued me a student ID that LOOKED like an SSN but the middle two digits were 00, which is not a series used in SSNs.

    5. Re:I always use my State Driver License ID number by rnelsonee · · Score: 1

      Many states still use Soundex for the first part, which is basically the first letter of your last name, along with a 3-digit number code that represents the pronunciation of your last name. It doesn't work with the spelling of your last name, because it was used at Ellis Island to give numbers to immigrants, who didn't always write English, so they'd say their name, and get a cool 4-digit alphanumeric.

      I don't know how the rest of the DL's number is set - I'd bet part of it is serial.

  26. Why Not Use Body Parts? Or higher tech? by PleaseFearMe · · Score: 1

    Fingerprints are used already for identification, but they are not foolproof because you leave them everywhere, and people can try to make a mold of it. There are other body parts that are not touched as much... such as toe prints! They are always inside a shoe so they are secret, and if they do not change much over the years, make an excellent identification card.

    Social Security Numbers have been around since 1963 (says Wiki). Technology has extended us so much. We can count to numbers we could not have dreamed of in 1963. Why don't we give each person a public and private key, like in Gmail? You'll have to hurt me to get my password! Or we can get those cool chips inserted into our fingers that are individual to us. If the scammer in Nigera wants to know my information, what better way of protecting me than not letting me know my own information. The chip knows it, and it's inside me! If you want to identify me, you'll must have one of those devices that are only available in places like banks and jails. Yay for technology! Yay for toe prints!

  27. Same other places too.... by MortenMW · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Its the same problem in Norway. The person-numbers (Norwegian SSN's) are built this way:
    DD MM YY III CC

    The three first groups are your date of birth (which is found in all public records).

    The next group (III) are individual numbers ranging from 000 to 999. If you are born before 2000 it is under 500, if your born after it is over. If you are male it is a odd number and even for girls. So if you know the date of birth and a persons gender there are 250~ possible numbers.

    The last group are control digits used to calculate a valid person-number.

    Most (if not all) banks and other important thing use the numbers as both identification and authentication...

  28. the real paper by cinnamon+colbert · · Score: 1

    you can get a pdf of the actual report by the researchers - no 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand stuff, for free from this url
    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/07/02/0904891106.full.pdf+html?sid=5e51e1ab-8945-420c-8013-29182641090e
    which raises an interesting question: why do /.ers, who obviously consider themselves above average, make do with 2nd hand reports when they can so easily get the real thing.

    actually bothering to take, say, 5 min to find and read the original report would have zeroed out a lot of the nonsense on /. for instance: the report, in its intro, says that the SS administratin openly discloses that the first 3 digits are area number, AN....

  29. SSN's have no error control by grandpa-geek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Change a digit or transpose digits in an SSN and you most likely will transform it into another valid SSN.

    The SSN numbering system was developed in the mid 1930's. The modern mathematics of error control were published by Shannon after World War II. (His work or error control was related to work on cryptography.) By "modern" mathematics, I refer to the fact that there was some understanding of error control in old telegraph systems, but it wasn't developed systematically.

    Credit cards have check digits that will catch some common errors in data entry. Computer and communications technology use error control in many ways. SSN's are still back in the 1930's.

    Perhaps it is time to modernize them by at least adding check digits. Also, the prohibition against using them as personal identifiers should be strengthened and enforced.

    1. Re:SSN's have no error control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, the prohibition against using them as personal identifiers should be strengthened and enforced.

      There's nothing wrong with thinking of them as personal identifiers. The problem is the assumption that they are somehow secret when in reality they are no more secret than your name.

    2. Re:SSN's have no error control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, the prohibition against using them as personal identifiers should be strengthened and enforced.

      Ironically, the US Government itself seems to be the biggest culprit. I have a handful of student loans from when I was in school:

      1. A small loan from Edfinancial Services. My account number is seemingly random. (I'm sure it's not random to them, but if it's at all dervived from my SSN it's not clear how.)
      2. Several large loans from Citibank (eew!). The account number is also seemingly random and significantly longer than an SSN.
      3. A loan from the federal government. The account number is my SSN. Recently--as of a few months ago--they started to only show the last four digits on the paper they mailed you. They still request that you write your account number (SSN) on the check if you pay that way, though.

      Go figure.

  30. No... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    The nation's Social Security numbering scheme has left millions of citizens vulnerable to privacy breaches

    No, Ubiquitous use of SSNs as a "secret" for anything beyond Social Security has left millions of citizens vulnerable to privacy breaches.

  31. Universal Identifier != universal authentication by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The SSN is a perfectly fine choice as a universal identifier. However, it is a lousy choice as a universal password. That is what most institutions have used it as. A universal identifier and password at the same time. Identification, Authentication, and Authorization are in fact separate activities and require distinctly separate systems.

    (Why are people so stupid about this stuff? it's so simple.)

  32. Tax ID number by itomato · · Score: 1

    When I was unfortunately and temporarily employed by AT&T Wireless, some people activated phones using Tax ID or EIN numbers.

    "Sorry, that one's no good."

    "OK, well, try this one.."

    "Nope."

    "OK, then try..."

    "Hey! It liked that one! Enjoy your new, shadily acquired telecommunications device"

    Same digits, different format. Multiple lookups on the backend?

  33. funded by the National Science Foundation by call+-151 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here is their grant and proposal abstract from the NSF. It sounds like they did exactly what they'd proposed to do- not every grant meets that metric! Theirs is a 3-year grant for a total of $386927.

    There was a cute line in their FAQs:

    Q. Were the tests IRB approved?

    Yes, they were approved. No SSNs were harmed during the writing of this paper.

    --
    It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw.
  34. Military service by the_macman · · Score: 1

    Fuck....Nevermind the fact that if you've ever been in the military your SSN has been passed around more than a two dollar whore. Such much for security through obscurity :\

    1. Re:Military service by morsmortis · · Score: 1

      True. I always found it sad that my SSN and other personal information (Mothers Maiden, Home Address, to name to name a few) was at the hands PVTs and PFCs in admin.

    2. Re:Military service by backbyter · · Score: 1

      I remember having to have the ssn placed on the address block in order to receive mail while I was in.

  35. drivers license (Re:Duh) by blindseer · · Score: 1

    They wouldn't issue his drivers license until he has a SSN.

    Was that so the SSN could be used as the driver license number?

    Around here they stopped putting SSNs on the drivers license some time ago. It must have been fairly routine to do so since I recall that about five years ago one of the staff at the license station started to ask if I wanted my SSN removed from my drivers license only to stop herself once she looked at my license. I don't think I ever had my SSN on my driver license since, even at a young age, I realized the danger in linking those two databases.

    What really boggled my mind was that co-workers of mine were perplexed at my distaste for RealID even after pointing out the dangers of one's SSN getting into the wrong hands. If you think Social Security Numbers are scary you need to look at how RealID can really mess with your life.

    --
    I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    1. Re:drivers license (Re:Duh) by Planesdragon · · Score: 0, Troll

      What really boggled my mind was that co-workers of mine were perplexed at my distaste for RealID even after pointing out the dangers of one's SSN getting into the wrong hands. If you think Social Security Numbers are scary you need to look at how RealID can really mess with your life.

      Let me rebut every single one of your points with one phrase.

      -> If we don't do the system right, we're going to live with a system done wrong -

      Protesting RealID doesn't do anything but extend the period where your SSN is identification -- and it's a TERRIBLE form of identificaion. I want a 128-bit number, AT LEAST, not this 30-bit nonsense.

    2. Re:drivers license (Re:Duh) by daath93 · · Score: 1

      In order to obtain a Drivers license you must provide a Individual Tax Identification Number. Non-Resident aliens obtain an ITIN from the IRS, Resident aliens and citizens ITIN is the SSN.

    3. Re:drivers license (Re:Duh) by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I was loosely in favor of RealID until states began to protest and revolt. At that point, I became an opponent of it purely for the purpose of seeing the states get some sense of federalism back into the system. I value that far more than I value any of the suggested benefits of RealID.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    4. Re:drivers license (Re:Duh) by blindseer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In order to obtain a Drivers license you must provide a Individual Tax Identification Number. Non-Resident aliens obtain an ITIN from the IRS, Resident aliens and citizens ITIN is the SSN.

      No, you are not required to provide your SSN to obtain a non-commercial drivers license. You did not need to provide an ITIN either. My drivers license contains neither of these numbers and, IIRC, I never provided it to the DMV. I took a look at the Social Security Administration website and it states that one is not required to provide a SSN for a non-commercial driver license. To obtain a commercial driver license one is required to provide their SSN, but not non-commercial.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    5. Re:drivers license (Re:Duh) by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Protesting RealID doesn't do anything but extend the period where your SSN is identification -- and it's a TERRIBLE form of identificaion. I want a 128-bit number, AT LEAST, not this 30-bit nonsense.

      The SSN was not intended to be used for identification beyond that of Social Security Insurance. It's a terrible form of identification because we are using it for more than what it was intended. That number was not to be seen or used except in very specific correspondence with the federal government. Any identification number used widely is a bad idea, regardless of how many bits or digits in it.

      When I got my driver license I got a license number, used for identification with the state government. When I got a bank account I got an account number. Same with my cable TV, phone service, cellular service, etc. Each company uses a different identifier for me. That is a good idea since if any one number is compromised I potentially lose only that account/service. If all those companies used my SSN or RealID to identify me then, having placed all my eggs in one basket, if that number is compromised then my whole life is screwed up. RealID would have REQUIRED the used of that single number for a wide number of purposes, and therefore the chances of a RealID number being compromised is very high.

      If we don't do the system right, we're going to live with a system done wrong

      RealID is the system done wrong. The right way to do it is to have each entity that requires an ID number should be required to generate that number. Keep it decentralized. That is the problem with SSNs, they are used all over the place and for the wrong reasons. Having 15 different ID numbers is inconvenient but then so is having your stuff stolen by identity fraud.

      Side note: There is no such thing as "identity theft" since people cannot steal who you are. They can pretend to be you and that is fraud. By using the SSN for identification or authentication is a bad idea since it makes fraud that much easier, the crooks only have to find one number to really mess with your life.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    6. Re:drivers license (Re:Duh) by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By using the SSN for identification or authentication is a bad idea since it makes fraud that much easier, the crooks only have to find one number to really mess with your life.

      What's worse is, companies usually use the SSN for identification AND authentication. It would be like me using "Cro Magnon" as my ID and password everywhere!

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    7. Re:drivers license (Re:Duh) by JWSmythe · · Score: 1

          In my state, your drivers license number is calculated based on your name (first letter of first name, first letter of middle name, first letter of last name, and soundex of last name), date of birth, and sex. Pretty cool, huh? Well, it's all fun and games until it turns out that there were two J W Smythe's born on Dec 31, 1969. The last name doesn't even have to exactly match, it would only need to be close enough for a soundex match.

          Twins Jim and Jon, both with a middle name W and a last name Smythe, would have the same drivers license number.

          It's their paperwork that requires a SSN. As far as I know, it's never been printed the number on the cards here.

          Ya, I really don't like the "privacy" crap. I was at Wachovia bank (now Wells Fargo) to close my account. They didn't even ask to see my photo id. They had me swipe my debit card. I typed in my PIN. I told them my name, SSN, and birth date. That's all they wanted. Hell, I could have beat down someone outside and gathered that information, and closed their account for them. Well, I could have swiped their wallet and done the same thing without as much of the physical violence.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  36. Re:Why Not Use Body Parts? Or higher tech? by Bored+Grammar+Nazi · · Score: 1

    Ok, let's say that you have one of those ID chips inserted in your fingers, and that I'm mugging you. You don't have any cash on you, but you have your ATM card in your wallet. If the ATM is using biometrics as you propose then it would make sense for me to take your ATM card, then just cut your finger and use it to authenticate.

  37. Impressive, not *too* surprised by rnelsonee · · Score: 1

    Okay, guessing all 9 digits is good, so I'm not downplaying the success of this research. My sister and I were born 3 minutes apart and our SSNs are 20 values apart.

    But the first 5 have always been not too difficult for some areas as it's based on date and location of birth (or date of issue, but there's obviously a correlation between the two). This makes it invaluable as a social hacking tool.

    Just like the easy-to-guess Soundex numbers found on many state licenses, as well as the fact that credit cards use a system for numbering, simply correctly identifying the first few digits of a number can sometimes gain someone's trust ("Okay, I'm going to verify the first 4 digits of your Driver's License, but I won't disclose the whole thing over the phone. After I've verified this information, I will need...")

  38. You're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The point that I haven't seen anyone hit on yet is the fact that they designed it for THEIR use, not ours and not the private sector. They've even gone so far as to require that it's redacted to some degree (even though as proven a bazillion times) it's trivial to guess what's been redacted. The fact is that everyone else has adopted it because if any legal matters came up, that's the only way the law was going to identify you. The problem is that the lazy private sector doesn't have anything else that's "consistent" (and I use that term extremely loosely) across all entities to manage your identity. Hell FINGERPRINTS would be a better way of managing the authentication - the level of security required can be increased by simply requiring more fingers be scanned. Signing into a basic forum where you don't care? Swipe a digit. Logging into your bank? Swipe more, PLUS use an SSN. I'd certainly be happy to go spend the few bucks on a USB fingerprint reader for my desktop - laptop's already got it.

    Let's face it - the US Government isn't known for developing numbering systems with security in mind - take a look at IPv4. What the world needs is a commercial solution for a commercial problem. What good is my SSN when doing business outside the US?

  39. I Thought Of This 20 Years Ago! by tunapez · · Score: 1

    When I learned my father's # was eerily similar to mine. We were born in the same hospital some 25 years apart, that was about the time I wondered how hard it would be to do what these guys did.

    Obviously, I didn't think too hard about it.

    --
    Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
    1. Re:I Thought Of This 20 Years Ago! by eldapo · · Score: 1

      Lawyer I worked for in the early 90's demonstrated this to me. He'd been a detective with the NYPD and had this formula to validate SSN's. With a little work he'd figured out how to predict as well. No, I wasn't able to follow his math. This guy was one of those proverbial self taught geniuses who was able to do that kind of stuff in his head.

      --
      eldapo
  40. Aren't we going to run out of SSNs? by afabbro · · Score: 1

    Off-topic, but...

    Aren't we going to run out of SSNs? They are never reused (according to the Social Security Administration).

    They're nine digits, so theoretically they're good for a billion people, but in reality they're broken up by state. Most states have three or four sets of starting three-digit numbers (with bigger states having more), and there are prefixes reserved for immigrants, etc. So the nine-digit space is actually smaller.

    There are ~300 million Americans, so how many more generations can the current system support? Particularly as today, people get SSNs much earlier than they did in the past. You can't open a college savings account for a kid without one, for example.

    Yes, it would be easy to just add another digit, but I strongly suspect that is going to be another Y2K-style programming effort. Gov't will mandate that by Jan 1, 20XX, everyone must support 12-digit SSNs, industry will spend hundreds of millions of dollars, COBOL programmers will be in demand again, congressmen will introduce legislation repeatedly to delay introduction, etc...bleh.

    --
    Advice: on VPS providers
  41. Well duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You could also go backward and pick random 7 numbers (more or less) and use their very simple numbering method to trace back to who owns that number, too. SSNs are simply a joke. How can you use something determined by public records for privacy and security?

  42. 123-456-7890 by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

    Yes, it's the came as the combination on my luggage. No, the government won't issue a new one.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    1. Re:123-456-7890 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's no SSN...
      that's a phone number.

    2. Re:123-456-7890 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to my luggage!

  43. SSN is an IDENTIFIER, not AUTHENTICATOR by mwilliamson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Anybody or organization using an SSN as both an identifier and a form of authentication is stupid, irresponsible and should be held accountable 100% for breach of whatever resource they control. The problem is in the "shared secret" type use of a damn 9-digit number, with a few of the digits already known based on state of birth.

    Want a list of ssn's for every state? Here's all of them. Have fun.

    -Michael

    1. Re:SSN is an IDENTIFIER, not AUTHENTICATOR by nixish · · Score: 0

      My old private liberal arts college did this until a few years ago and stopped it only AFTER student concerns. Oh the grands spent!

  44. The problem isn't that you can't keep SSNs secret. by jra · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem is that you're trying.

    To extend, the problem the SSA mentions: using them as identifiers?

    That's not what's causing all the trouble. You can do that all you like, and the only people you'll piss off are privacy advocates, worried about unwanted cross-correlation.

    The *real* problem, as I note in a piece I wrote for RISKS DIgest last month, is people using knowledge of an SSN (or a mother's maiden name, or any other answer not *made up by the customer*) as an authenticator.

    If it is discoverable, and you force a customer to use it, *you* ought to be responsible when someone does, and defrauds the customer, cause you were an accessory before, and now you're on notice; it's been posted here.

    Have fun, retail authentication system designers. ;-)

  45. Interesting, but inapplicable to me by grolaw · · Score: 1

    I signed up for my SSN 2000 miles from where I was born, in the 1960s, where the facility that issued me the card (I still have) had the man pull the card off of a stack - I just picked a day and time to apply and was handed that card as a 14 year-old. I suspect I'm damn random.

  46. Who needs to guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Working for a department store (silly store cards), you'd be surprised how many people are just ready and willing to tell me.

  47. Nothing new by thesandbender · · Score: 1

    I've been doing a lot of federal contract work over the bast 6-7 years and I can guess the first 4-5 digits of most people's SSN's off the top of my head. The first three digits are a easy.

  48. Look... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called a Social Security Number for a reason. Clearly if we use it, things will be secure.

  49. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The government says not to use your SSN for indentification...but you can't get a bank account, car loan, mortgage, student loan, go to school even, etc. For fooksake, your SSN is everywhere out there. The moronic government is just covering their collective arses by making that statement.

    Two words..."Life Lock"....it sucks to have to pay for it but protecting your SSN and identity is super important.

  50. Simple enough by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No encryption/digital signature = fail

    --
    My first program:

    Hell Segmentation fault

  51. OOhh the horror! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone from Sweden I fail to see the severety of this...

    let me reveal the secret algorithm for Swedish SSNs:

    Date of birth 6 digits: next 2 digits used to be place of birth, but not any more. Then there is a digit that is odd for males and even for females and then a checksum digit

    YYMMDD-XXGC

  52. Non-random numbers aren't random by vxvxvxvx · · Score: 1

    The fact this made news at all is not a sign of how broken the SSN is, but rather how stupid the target audience is. The methodology of social security number assignment is not a secret. The "research" paper is simply repeating known information that anyone could do.

    Step 1: Get zip code of origin (city of birth works well for anyone born after 88.) - you got the first 3 numbers.
    Step 2: Get date of issuance (usually date of birth) - you got the 4th and 5th number almost guaranteed. The final 4, you can narrow down to a range by looking at the publicly available SSN of the deceased. If the date was May 15 and you have on record a SSN ending in 3485 issued May 14th and 3809 on May 16th for the same first 5 digits you know the last 4 are between 3485-3808.

    They took 3 years to do this?

  53. only 1 digit for check-sum by superposed · · Score: 1

    Actually, only one digit is used for the checksum on most credit cards.

    For a 16-digit number, there is a 6-digit issuer identification number (including 1-digit major-industry identifier), followed by 9 unique digits for the customer, followed by one check-digit. Some Visa numbers used to be 13 digits, which would have been much less unique, but those seem to have been converted to 16-digit numbers now (all this from Wikipedia).

    1. Re:only 1 digit for check-sum by muridae · · Score: 1

      Ahh, it's been forever since my days spent trolling bbs and forums learning all of this. I blame age and forgetfulness.

  54. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This about SSN's is: bad thing.

    Background: military medic where EVERYTHING in the military goes by your SSN, to include Healthcare.

    I'm a numbers geek and can memorize strings almost instantaneously. At first it helped for the frequent fliers in the ER as I'd see them at the door, and start the paperwork, already knowing thier chief complaint AND their SSN. Then as I learned more and more numbers I started putting them together. Researched a bit, and found a little matrix I kept running in my head--> where they were from.

    Initial Use: I would use where they were from. I used it once in a rape with great success. "So where are you from in Colorado", putting them in a mental "safe place" for a moment, enabling me to start treatment. Used it thereafter on emotionally straining occurrences.

    Second: Profit. While deployed I would bet people coming into the clinic $5 I could guess where they were from stateside by their heartbeat. Of course they'd take the bait as I warmed my stethoscope. Glancing at their dog tags would be all I'd need to get state, and in several instances ->Cities. "Hrm your from... grr (feigned mental anxiety on my part) TEXAS! actually --> (455-xx-xxx) San Antonio! *Showmanship wins* $5 please or a pack of Marlboro's

    My PROBLEM with our set up is if I'm captured I'm required to give the Enemy my NAME, RANK, SSN. Give me anyone's SSN and I can find out way too much information on you, to include where your FAMILY LIVES! Useful to an enemy combatant? I think so. I'd prefer the use of a Military issued ID number that wasn't associated with any other number that identifies you, except to our military; such was used in my grandfathers time in service.

    My experiences with SSN's, please do not try this at home, never shower with power tools.

  55. Magical Thinking by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

    In many less developed societies, it's common for people to believe that knowing someone's "true name" allows you to perform magic on that person. That cognitive process is still active today, however: we just consider social security numbers our "true names" and treat them accordingly.

    Frankly, it's ridiculous either way. Social security numbers are just identifiers, and we need to stop treating mere identifiers as tokens imbued with power.

  56. Not surprised by Biswalt · · Score: 1

    I've always wondered why people have to use the last four numbers as an identifier so often, but it makes sense from the perspective of it being the most unique part of the number. I can't say I'm surprised by this given that I'd already figured out the 005 start means you were born in Maine for example. So because I knew that everyone in my family had a double zero start, and none of my friends or their family did, I correctly surmised that the first three digits related to where you were born. A little research later and I realized all other numbers are a function in some way shape or form of time. This was all before I'd seen an explanation about how the numbers are assigned. So I'd already known for the last decade it wasn't a random number at all, and I'd also assumed it makes the most logical sense for the last four numbers to be assigned in some sort of serial fashion. I would think that with computing becoming as powerful as it is that we'd be looking at a situation where the whole number is guessable if you know the time of birth. If someone got access to say a hospital log of when new babies were born, and it was the only hospital in the zipcode as long as you could verify the SSN of any one of the babies in the log you'd then have the SSN of all babies in the log. I knew this some nine or ten years ago when I was in college.

  57. Well no duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    9 digits = 1 billion total possible combinations.

    The population of the US = what, 400 million?

    So, we're almost to the point where you can just hit 9 random numbers and have about a 50/50 chance of getting SOMEBODY's number.

    Seems like we just had this problem with 7 digit phone numbers... and 4 part IP addresses...

  58. Re:Why Not Use Body Parts? Or higher tech? by Timex · · Score: 1

    Social Security Numbers have been around since 1963 (says Wiki).

    I think you've got an accidental transposition here... According to the SSA, the first card was issued in 1936, not 1963.

    --
    When politicians are involved, everyone loses.
  59. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  60. three additive solutions by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    1. make ssn's alphanumeric. this keeps it down to 9 letters/ numbers that you can remember. it also makes it backwards compatible so you don't have to issue everyone new SSNs. make it so there is no relationship whatsoever between birth place/ date/ name and SSN. (10 numbers + 26 letters)^9 = 101,559,956,668,416. 101.5 trillion is a nice enough space, and certainly better than the current 1 billion. you may even have idiots requesting vanity SSNs like vanity license plates. i reserve FUK-YU-IRS1

    2. issue a password along with the SSN. now you have security at least as robust as something like gmail. not ironclad security, but you're never going to get that level with SSNs, and you are not introducing a system too cumbersome for you average joe, since he is already used to this security model. websites that "require" SSN can have authentication done a la openID: SSN+password goes to the government's server, and the government's server gives a thumbs up/ thumbs down before the requesting website proceeds with processing. limit, of course, the websites that can request such authentication to a white list (state dmvs, medicaid, student loan sites, etc.). all legacy application processes that require you to write down your SSN on a piece of paper: do away with it. we are at the point where the government can require all use of SSNs to be done via HTTPS only. you can get that on celphones nowadays. the government can set the standard, and the standard is not difficult to meet, even in the municipal office of red lodge montana or on the crabbing boat in alaska when you apply for that fishing boat job

    3. make it a lot easier to get a new SSN/ password. compromise will happen, or at least suspected compromise. for peace of mind, make it so individuals can generate a new SSN/ password easily and quickly and without red tape, as easy as getting a new email account

    none of this is very difficult or groundbreaking

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  61. They're just discovering this now? by ggendel · · Score: 1

    I've known a "mentalist" that part of his act was to reveal a person's SSN, which he did with amazing accuracy. He's been doing this trick for over 25 years.

    He uses a formula from a person's birthplace and age to get most of the digits. He used other cues for the remaining digits, but I'm fuzzy about this process.

  62. No need to guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mine is 078-05-1120.

    Knock yourself out.

  63. Re:Why Not Use Body Parts? Or higher tech? by PleaseFearMe · · Score: 1

    Yup, you're right. I read the number wrong haha. 1936 makes sense because it was around Great Depression time when Social Security was a good idea.

  64. Re:The problem isn't that you can't keep SSNs secr by Ichijo · · Score: 1

    The solution is for the Federal Government to start fresh with a new numbering system and then post, online, each number along with the name of its owner, in order to preclude any chance of using them for authentication.

    I would also add in check digits and a version number.

    --
    Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.