US Agency Blocked Cellphone / Driving Safety Study

By now you've probably seen the NY Times's long piece on distracted driving — about how most drivers and most legislators willfully ignore the evidence of the dangers of talking on a cellphone, texting, and other electronic distractions while behind the wheel. According to this article, cellphone use while driving causes over 1,000 fatalities a year in the US. Another shoe has now dropped: it seems that the US National Highway Safety Administration blocked a proposed definitive study of the risks. The NHSA now cites concerns about angering Congress. Two consumer safety groups had filed a FOIA request for documents about the aborted study, and the Times has now made the documents public — including the research behind the request for a study of 10,000 drivers.

Comments

First Po

[Anonymous Coward]

*SCREEEECH* *KABOOM*

scary thing

[gEvil (beta)]

The highway safety researchers estimated that cellphone use by drivers caused around 955 fatalities and 240,000 accidents over all in 2002.

The scary thing about this is that those numbers were from 2002. Think about how many more cellphones there are out there today than there were in 2002.

Re:scary thing

[ImNotAtWork]

now think about how many touch screen phones that are out now. You can easily fumble your way through a phone number on a pad... but a flat touch screen requires a bit more focus.. that should be on the road anyways.

Re:scary thing

[AndrewNeo]

I've noticed that with my new touchscreen phone, even with text prediction it's a lot harder to do it because I have to look at the screen to make sure I'm hitting the right buttons, or at all. With my previous phone, I could just feel the buttons, and I knew what the text prediction would come up with, so I could write entire texts without looking at the phnoe until it was done. Not that it's still entirely safe, but if you're going to do it anyway..

Re:scary thing

[icebike]

And the interesting part is that having a bluetooth headset provides no significant improvement.

Its not holding the phone to your ear that causes accidents, its the cognitive distraction of being on the phone with someone who can not see the dangers in front of the vehicle.

Passengers in the vehicle (at least those over 12) STFU where the driver is busy or when a situation develops, and their silence or their warnings actually calls attention to some dangers.

But this verifies other studies that state that bluetooth or earbuds add nothing to safety.

One can only hope that over time people learn to deal with and shut out the distraction, because I don't see cell phones getting restricted for drivers anytime soon.

Re:scary thing

[acrobg]

Out here in California, there is a law about not talking on the phone while driving without a handsfree device. The problem is that now people all the time are just using their phone as before, but spending three times the effort hiding their phone so the cop on the side of the road doesn't pull them over. So now, rather than them just talking on the phone, they're talking, trying to hide it, and driving with whatever level of brain power they have left.

Re:scary thing

[davester666]

I don't know why handfree is considered significantly better than holding the cell phone up to your ear, any more than holding a coffee/pop/hamburger.

Unless you are having a totally trivial, meaningless conversation, it's the attention your brain has to give to listening to what the person is saying and how you will respond that screws up driving.

I've personally noticed that for non-trivial calls that last more than maybe a minute, I'll have gone miles without knowing exactly how (basically, driven on autopilot).

Re:scary thing

[michaelhood]

Closed captioning sponsored by Apple.

Re:scary thing

[hedwards]

It's not any better, I think subsequent research demonstrated that it's a questionable assertion. Really at this point, the prudent thing is to turn off all audio devices and anything that isn't really necessary so that one can more easily concentrate.

These sorts of laws aren't terribly useful until they ban it for all drivers and make it a primary offense.

Re:scary thing

[thrawn_aj]

Passengers in the vehicle (at least those over 12) STFU where the driver is busy or when a situation develops, and their silence or their warnings actually calls attention to some dangers.

You know, I'm totally on board (and have been since I learned to drive) with the 'no cellphones while driving', to the extent that I don't even answer the phone unless I can safely pull over (usually at a street parking spot). But please, PUHLEEEEZ spare me the bromide about the distinction between cell phone conversations vs. those with passengers. That is simply a disingenuous argument - you're relying on the sensibility of people on the passenger side of the argument (to mind the road hazards) while casually dismissing the sensibility of the cellphone using driver (who clearly cannot be trusted and must be protected from himself). As you said yourself, if you wish to be consistent with the policy of no distractions, you would HAVE to ban all kids, especially infants from cars unless there is someone besides the driver to take care of them. This would inconvenience 99% of the members of say, a rabid organization like MADD now wouldn't it? :P

My point here simple - cellphones are no more or less dangerous than ANY kind of distraction encountered by the driver - be it hot coffee, chatty passengers or crying infants in the back seat. The reason cellphones are banned is ONLY (I repeat, ONLY) because it is the only thing you CAN ban without causing mass riots. I actually sympathize with that but again, please don't try to justify this inconsistency - it can't be justified in any logical way.

Not trying to flamebait here but the whole cellphone-hate from so-called sophisticated people is getting increasingly inconsistent. To give another example of this inconsistency - I've read opinions by Bill Bryson, the renowned travel author, someone I admire greatly (obviously not for this) where he repeatedly (and entirely without humor) rags on people who talk on cellphones in public. Now, as much as that practice bothers me too (and which I again, personally refrain from doing), it is the PUREST form of horseshit to distinguish cellphone conversations from those with fellow passengers. But I've seen several "sophisticates" having heated discussions with no regard for the people around them. Personally, I couldn't give a shit either way (the inventor of earphones deserves a Nobel IMHO :P). But someone please tell me exactly how (for all practical purposes, not because someone APPROVES of one kind of conversation over the other for anachronistic/reactionary reasons) cellphones are any less annoying than ... well ... most people in public :P.

/end rant (well, just one more thing - next time I see a bunch of high school kids play crap on their designer phone/music player/vibrator/whatever on the bus WITHOUT earphones, I'm gonna shove it up their whatsits :P)
//27 and already senile
///get off my lawn *sigh*

Re:scary thing

[multisync]

how is this flamebait?

Mod lives in parents' basement

Re:scary thing

[Al Dimond]

There are differences between cell phones and other distractions; although I'm sure there's a distraction factor from both radios and conversations with passengers, the cell phone conversation demands more from the driver than either of these for the following reasons:

1. The driver can very easily tune out the radio. He knows that the radio doesn't care. Often when I'm driving and listening to a CD I'll realize that my favorite song played two tracks ago and I didn't even notice it go by. That might be less true of radio, especially if you're listening to a stimulating discussion, but at least you're not in the conversation and expected to reply. In long, boring stretches of freeway driving music can help keep a driver alert, while it's easy to just ignore when the situation requires it.

2. Passengers in the car with the driver can pick up non-verbal communication from the driver that requires less effort than speaking. A passenger knows when a difficult merge is coming up, or can look at the driver's eyes to see when he needs to really concentrate. In my experience, also, people on the phone expect answers quicker than people talking in-person. A lot of the ways we stall for time when responding to people aren't verbal -- one of the big ones is just being present. Phone calls tend to be a very demanding way to have a conversation. Often passengers help drivers navigate and operate the radio and heat or AC.

Re:scary thing

[Anonymous Coward]

o kmiw jidt wjst u mesn

This message was sent from my iPhone.

Re:scary thing

[noidentity]

I've noticed that with my new touchscreen phone, even with text prediction it's a lot harder to do it because I have to look at the screen to make sure I'm hitting the right buttons, or at all. With my previous phone, I could just feel the buttons, and I knew what the text prediction would come up with, so I could write entire texts without looking at the phnoe until it was done.

And this is why "smart" (AKA unpredictable) computer interfaces are worse than dumb ones: you have to constantly find out what it did in response to your last input before you continue. It's essentially like a TCP connection with a very small window, preventing the sender from sending a lot at a time. Even though the "smart" interface might reduce the amount of input needed, it introduces lots of delays while you verify each step. Give me an interface I can simulate in my mind and therefore fire a lot of input at without constantly verifying that it's accepted as I expected.

Re:scary thing

[SpaceCadets]

Here in Australia (Victoria specifically), myself as a "P" (probationary) plater can loose my license for driving while being on the phone, handsfree or not. The initial demerit point loss was 3, and that has been doubled to six points. Given that a P plater only has 5 demerit points, they bust you once for talking on your phone, you're gone. Personally I take the view that I have voicemail for a reason, but I will glance at the caller and if it's important I'll pull over and call them back. -My 2 cents worth.

Re:scary thing

[icebike]

Sorry if it offends your sensibilities.

Its not a bromide, its been studied quite extensive in Sweden and the US.

Read this study before you start your rant:
http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/xap144-drews.pdf

Passenger conversation is no where near cell conversation in degree of disruption resulting in missed tasks.

Your assertion, sir, is indefensible.

Re:scary thing

[icebike]

Not hard, says you.

But the studies show otherwise.

Re:scary thing

[QuoteMstr]

Laws only apply to little people like us.

Re:scary thing

[Kuroji]

Yeah, and your caller cheerfully keeps blathering on despite telling them three times to hold on, god damn it, I'm in the middle of rush hour traffic trying to merge. This was the point that I decided that just about anyone on the other end of the phone while I'm driving is probably not going to listen to me anyway. If it's important they can leave a damn message and I'll get back to them at my convenience.

Re:scary thing

[Anonymous Coward]

He has a point though... not all passengers are equal.

I cringe whenever I see a "super mom" driving around obviously more engaged in Quality Time with the baby in the rear seat than in her driving responsibilities. It is proof that the survival and "maternal protection" instincts do not imbue rational behavior in many cases. I have seen this both with women focusing intensely with tunnel vision on their rear-view mirror (which is of course aimed incorrectly to show them the back seat instead of the view out the back of the car) and with women who actually twist and look over their shoulder for long periods of time.

I am not trying to pick on moms, as I see plenty of other scenarios just as bad, ranging from couples apparently conducting divorce court in their car to couples trying to make babies while driving. Meanwhile, my own wife took months to be able to handle my "quiet now!" bark when I was focused in intense traffic and she was in the passenger seat. I find it easier to say "hold on" and drop my earphone during a phone call than to say "hold on" and have some passenger keep talking or start arguing. People who claim passengers do not cause interference have apparently never had an argumentative passenger.

This issue is actually the one time that I can see the value of intrusive "black box" systems, but it would be a "cockpit voice recorder" and video camera to show the actual environment and actions of the occupants in the moments leading to a crash. I don't care what you are doing, if it causes a distraction and leads to a crash, liability should be assigned accordingly. That could be answering a phone, changing the music, scratching your ass, spilling coffee on your lap, getting a blow job, falling asleep, picking your nose, being whacked out on cold medicine, having a speed-racer moment, getting bit by your unrestrained dog, having objects thrown at you by your unruly child, etc. I don't care the reason. You accept responsibility for operating a deadly machine when you drive it, and you should accept the consequences when you fail to live up to the task.

Re:scary thing

[Anonymous Psychopath]

There were 43,005 auto accident fatalities in 2002 (source: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx). So we're talking about 2.2% of these being related to cell phone usage.

Also note that both these stats are not the number of accidents, but the number of fatalities. Looking at the number of accidents, which I think is probably a better measurement anyway, we have an estimated total of 6,316,000 and an estimated 240,000 where cell phones contributed. That gives us a higher percentage but still only 3.8%.

Sorry, but while cell phone usage while driving does contribute, it's nowhere near being the boogie-man everyone makes it out to be. And yeah, I've been rear-ended by someone screwing with their phone.

There is no doubt in my mind that outlawing cell phone usage while driving will save lives. Just not a lot of them.

Re:scary thing

[dkf]

While cellphone use is definitely a potential distraction and reduces focus on driving, I claim that most people who can drive properly can actually learn to talk over the phone while driving safely.

I really doubt your claim. There have been studies done, and apparently talking on the phone makes your reaction times slow more than having drunk quite a lot of alcohol. It's not exactly rocket science to go from "slower reactions" to "more accidents", especially when you consider that one person's inattention can cause a lot of damage to others.

Illegality or not, get off the phone while driving. If not for your own sake, then for mine and everyone elses. OK?

Re:scary thing

[hattig]

And the UK has just had the lowest road casualty rates in a very very long time, if not ever. I would say that these laws are beginning to work (that, and more modern cars can brake better).

Of course, careless/dangerous driving is scummy, and people have a very low opinion of those that do it, and that's quite a new thing. It used to only be drunk drivers (and that was after a lot of anti-drink-driving campaigning in the 80s and 90s). Fines and points, bah who cares. Being looked at like you're a paedophile or worse - big issue.

Re:scary thing

[hattig]

hot coffee, chatty passengers or crying infants in the back seat

First: Drink it in the car park, not whilst driving. Canned or bottled drinks (sports cap) are best for driving.

Second: They shut up when the driver has to do something complex.

Third: They can be safely ignored.

Also: Passenger talk is high fidelity. Mobile phone talk is often grainier and harder to understand. It takes up far more cognitive time. Also a passenger can wait for an answer (it's one of those things about being there with the person you are talking to), whereas there's an expectation of fast answers on the phone.

I'm in favour of mobile phones having a driving mode when they're plugged into a car handsfree:

1) Auto-answer calls in the "driving profile".

2) "The person you are calling is currently driving. If your call is important, press 1 to be connected or 2 to send a voice message immediately."

3a) Option 1: The phone will notify the driver that a call is incoming, who it is, and require the driver to answer "Take call" or "Drop call" or whatever.

3b) Option 1: AND/OR: Any accidents that happen when on the phone are blamed equally on both halves of the conversation. This might stop pushy work bosses being so pushy and requiring people driving to answer under threat of losing their jobs. Why would anyone willingly answer their phone whilst driving if it was their boss on the line! I can understand the wife or kids.

4) Option 2: The phone will repeat the voice message automatically to the driver. No requirement to go to voice mail and faff. "You received a message from X: blah blah". Driver can say "Repeat". Wife can leave messages "Pick up some milk and eggs darlin'" and the like.

Re:scary thing

[Chris Mattern]

There are lots of professional drivers who have to talk (pit crew, engineers, etc) while driving and they still can drive _competitively_ while doing so.

So all we need to do is replace all the drivers out there with professional racecar drivers! Brilliant!

Re:scary thing

[commodore64_love]

Even if never look at your phone and just say "call home", a study by the AAA Car Club has shown that merely *talking* on the phone distracts the driver.

I've seen this myself in real life, where a woman almost clipped my front end when she drove straight through a redlight. Her eyes were on the road, they saw the redlight, but her brain never processed the information, because she was animatedly talking to her somebody on her phone (held in her right hand against her head). The mere act of talking means you are not giving your full attention to the world outside your car.

Remember our brains are poor multitaskers - like an old IBM 8088 PC but much worse. Studies have found that a multitasking brain given two separate tasks does not split them 50-50. It's more like 30-30 with 20% wasted on overhead as the brain struggles to taskswitch.

Talking on a phone while driving should be banned. ALL the driver's attention should be on the road.

Re:scary thing

[commodore64_love]

Your discussion reminds me of the registers at JCPenney. The old machines were from the 1980s and they were slow as heck, but predictable so you could type 1 - scan - TOTAL - 1 - 1 - $100.00 - ENTER and just wait for the machine to catch-up (the cash drawer would pop open about 60 seconds later).

The new 2005-era registers are "smart" and try to predict what you desire, and most of the time they guess wrong. So instead of a fast automatic interface, everything operates more slowly as the clerk has to type one key at a time, and then doublecheck to make sure the machine did the right thing.

Instead of a fast 1-2 minute transaction, now it drags-on for 10 minutes.

Re:scary thing

[mcgrew]

It's not just the dialing, although I miss my Razr and its voice-activated dialing. The actual talking is a bigger distraction; it's almost impossible to pay attention to both the conversation and the road. It's not like talking to a passenger.

As to distracted driving, they need to outlaw letting pretty girls walk down a roadway. I almost killed myself on my motorcycle when I was 19, because I was paying attention to two females walking down the highway when I should have been making sure the car ahed didn't stop. Sliding under a stopped car isn't a pleasant experience; I limped for months.

Re:scary thing

[greed]

Thing about passengers....

They can at least look at what's going on outside the car. (Though passengers who _do not drive_ tend to not know when to shut up.)

But you're right: there's plenty of people driving distracted by conversations in their own car. Kids yammering in the back seat, "domestic dispute" in the front, lots of things taking their mind off the task at hand.

Too bad we can't ban the lot. And mandate, "Only drive when neutral or happy, never in anger."

Re:scary thing

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

Not that it's still entirely safe, but if you're going to do it anyway..

This is the mentality that causes accidents in the first place isn't it? Why would you be doingit anyway? I hate to break it to you, but there's very little in life that's so urgent that you simply must deal with it NOW, damn the consequences. And in the rare event where something /is/ that urgent, why wouldn't you pull over to deal with it - and give it the attention it deserves?

Understand - I'm a crackberry addict. Can't go a day without having it attached to me - access to all of my remote servers and shells, web sites, email, etc. Nonetheless -- you won't ever see me driving down the road and typing on it. (Traffic lights are another story ;) And that's with a full qwerty that can be navigated by touch.

Please don't contrive ridiculous corner cases to justify this -- in everyday usage, what justification is there for placing your own sense of urgency above the lives and safety of the people you share the road with?

Stop being such pussies.

[Anonymous Coward]

How can we expect to remain the most powerful country in the world if we turn into a bunch of big pussies, trying to stop anyone from taking any type of risk? I am much more productive if I can talk on my cellphone and respond to e-mails during my commute. Sometimes there is an accident; such is life. Eggs must be broken to make omelets. What happened to the can-do, damn-the-torpedoes attitude that got us to the moon?

Re:Stop being such pussies.

[soundguy]

What happened to the can-do, damn-the-torpedoes attitude that got us to the moon?

Lawsuits and juries of idiots happened

Re:Stop being such pussies.

[Hunter0000]

Eggs must be broken to make omelets. What happened to the can-do, damn-the-torpedoes attitude that got us to the moon?

Everyone in the space program that got us to the moon knew the risks and accepted them. By your logic drunk driving should be legal because its a known risk on the roadway. I'm sure that logic will be comforting if one day you "break an egg" (or are broken yourself) because you were distracted responding to an email. This isn't about your right to do whatever the hell you want, its about the right for some degree of safety on a public transit network.

Re:Stop being such pussies.

[Clockwork Apple]

"What happened to the can-do, damn-the-torpedoes attitude that got us to the moon?"

It got outsourced to China?
C.

Re:Stop being such pussies.

[Hunter0000]

There is no difference between having a cell phone conversation while driving and having a conversation with the guy/gal in the seat next to you, unless you somehow drop the handset...

Bullshit. Since you obviously lack the common sense to figure this out from experience, here is was 30 seconds with Google will tell you. http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/xap144-drews.pdf http://www.ergoweb.com/news/detail.cfm?id=2293 http://www.psych.utah.edu/AppliedCognitionLab/HFES2004-000597-1.pdf

Re:Stop being such pussies.

[MightyMartian]

I have no problem with you taking risks that effect just you. But as far as I'm concerned, if you make my next drive unsafe, then you're behavior must be modified, either willingly or be force.

Re:Stop being such pussies.

[dunkelfalke]

The difference is, driving is neither a right nor a liberty. It is a privilege. This privilege comes with some conditions. One of the condition is that you may not use your car on a public road when either your car is not fit for it or yourself aren't. It actually makes your argument about not being at your peak alertness a moot point - yes, it is already illegal, it is just too difficult to prove and no one cares. There also clear rules about turn signals. For example from the German traffic law: "whoever wishes to turn must make their intention clearly and in a timely manner, using the vehicle indicators".

Re:Stop being such pussies.

[thetroll123]

30 seconds? Acrobat Reader takes longer than that to fire up!

how does it compare to lightening?

[SethJohnson]

Meanwhile, every public pool has a policy of emptying everyone if thunder is heard. "Oh, you might get struck by lightening!" Yeah, well, you know what the chances of that are? A hell of a lot less than the risk that one of these brats is going to run out into the street and get run over by a car (perhaps while the driver is calling to see if the pool is open).

It's like people take all these precautions against the least likely dangers, while the more likely risks are ignored.

Seth

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[Hadlock]

I think the main problem is that while it's unlikely you'll be struck by, much less killed by lightning, if you're in the pool and lightning strikes within 200 ft or so (ballpark figure), well, you've got a bunch of people in the pool. Stick a fork in the toaster to get the bagel out, you're in for a shock, drop the toaster into the bathtub and you're done. The current for the lightning comes from the ground and goes to the sky, so if the pool is in the vicinity, there's a good chance of shocking/electrocuting a lot of people, particularly children, which is bad PR. The shock might be enough to trigger an epileptic seizure, or knock out someone's pacemaker, or give an elderly fatty a heart attack, any of those causing the person to drown. The kids who get run over in the street leaving the pool, well that's probably for the best, they won't pass on the bad parenting skills they learned from their parents. The rest of us survive to adulthood playing in the street, keeping an eye out for traffic with zero problems.

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[ColdWetDog]

From an economic standpoint, 1000 deaths a year is a small price to pay for the productivity gains had by communicating while in transit.

You are making the assumption that most cell phone conversations in cars are 'productive' in some sense of the word. From what I have seen, I seriously doubt that is true. Most of conversations are just mindless babble that could just as well never happen.

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[dhaines]

In my lifeguardin' days, the policy for when and how to clear the pool in anticipation of lightning wasn't based on concern for anyone being shocked, it was based on preventing a panicked stampede.

Electrocuting the cattle was a very minor consideration, but herding them was a huge one.

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[Anonymous Coward]

90% of human activity is just mindless babble that could just as well never happen.
its the 10% that counts.

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[noidentity]

Meanwhile, every public pool has a policy of emptying everyone if thunder is heard. "Oh, you might get struck by lightening!" Yeah, well, you know what the chances of that are? A hell of a lot less than the risk that one of these brats is going to run out into the street and get run over by a car (perhaps while the driver is calling to see if the pool is open).

It's like people take all these precautions against the least likely dangers, while the more likely risks are ignored.

The pool situation is different because the person staying in the pool bears the risk, not others (unless they are required to pay for hospitalization, which wouldn't surprise me). With cellphone use, the driver is exposing everyone to any increased risk it causes. Big difference.

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[fractoid]

+1, Sad But True. It's like people being far more afraid of sharks or tigers than of killer bees, which are actually more likely to kill them. Or like the way that when you're crossing the street, you'd never step out in front of a semi but at the same distance and speed you'd quite happily step out in front of a mini, completely forgetting that half a ton of mini will kill you just as dead as fifty tons of semi.

I don't get the 'get out of the pool' thing, though. Doesn't this pool have floodlights and other assorted metal objects projecting far above the surface of the water? And even if lightning does strike nearby, the pool water is far from pure and will probably conduct much better than the people in it. Unless you have a part of you sticking further above the water than the floodlights and shade cloth frames and so forth, you won't be in the path of the current.

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[1u3hr]

From an economic standpoint, 1000 deaths a year is a small price to pay for the productivity gains had by communicating while in transit.

What "productivity gains"? You speak as if you have quantified it. What economic value do mobile phone calls have? The great majority are just socialising.

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[sFurbo]

Ahh, but you can quantify how much the people value using the phone in the car, by looking at how much people are willing to pay for talking on a cellphone, compared to a normal phone (which they would presumably have at their destination). Hmm, I can't find the article, but it turns out that the rational reaction is to allow people talking, as they value that more than they value the (small) decrease in the risk of getting killed. I don't like that conclusion, but I have a hard time finding reasons to reject it...

Re:how does it compare to lightening?

[1u3hr]

I can't find the article, but it turns out that the rational reaction is to allow people talking, as they value that more than they value the (small) decrease in the risk of getting killed.

Not rational at all. People are very poor at assessing risk. More importantly, the risks are not only to the person using the phone. They KILL OTHER PEOPLE. They run over pedestrians. They go through red lights. For the same reason (and this is a very close analogy) we don't allow people to drive drunk, even though drunk drivers are quite willing to accept the risk to themselves.

Angering Congress?

[carp3_noct3m]

Two words for most of congress. "FUCK YOU"
Just cause that's what they do to America everyday.
Who cares if we "anger congress" , we should have more things that anger congress. A government should be afraid of it's people and not the other way around. Fuck why can't I live like a normal free person in antarctica.... less booze for me...out

stunned

[bloodhawk]

I am honestly completely stunned by this article. I had thought the majority of countries had passed laws about the use of cell phones while driving, I did not know the US was so far behind. Many studies in other countries have shown use of cell phone (even hands free) is the equivalent to driving with a mid range blood alcohol level or worse and has been banned in most western countries with hefty fines for using your cell phone while driving.

Re:stunned

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess what. If there's a chance that the US could be behind in something, we'll likely do our damnedest to make sure we're behind. It reminds me of this guy I work with. Whenever something like this (or poor health care, or poor education) comes up, he always responds with "But we're America. It shouldn't be like that here." And then he turns around and consistently votes against the people that try to improve public safety, education, health care. Go figure.

Re:stunned

[elrous0]

IIRC, the Mythbusters tested this very thing about as objectively as they could (with multiple passes by various drivers on a set obstacle course) and did indeed find that cellphone usage had more of a negative effect on driving than moderate intoxication. For what it's worth.

Dangers of blocking

[syousef]

Lets say you block cell phone usage. Does your technology exclude calls to emergency services? If not that's going to lead to deaths. Does your technology differentiate between the driver and a passenger? (I don't know how you'd even try to do that).

For starters we could enforce the existing laws. Caught talking on your cellphone twice, hand over your license.

Better would be to teach drivers to better cope with distractions including cell phone usage. If a pilot be required to be communicating on a radio while they land and take off - in a fast moving vehicle that falls out of the sky if not kept within parameters, at the edge of those parameters - I think drivers can be taught to drive safely on a cell phone. Not just left to their own devices to work out how, but taught. Where are the studies on how effective it is to teach drivers to drive while distracted by cell phones and other modern devices?

Re:Dangers of blocking

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

For starters we could enforce the existing laws. Caught talking on your cellphone twice, hand over your license.

All the existing laws are "feel good" laws for sanctimonious pricks. All the studies that have been published show that it isn't the act of holding a phone up to your ear that causes a driver to be distracted, it is simply talking on the phone that matters. But all of the laws give free passes to anyone with a handsfree phone. That's arguably worse than holding the phone to your ear - if you do that, at least the other drivers have a chance of noticing that you are on the phone and giving you a wide berth, handsfree makes you look like all the other drivers even though you are not as engaged with the road as they are.

If a pilot be required to be communicating on a radio while they land and take off - in a fast moving vehicle that falls out of the sky if not kept within parameters, at the edge of those parameters - I think drivers can be taught to drive safely on a cell phone.

One difference is that he is talking on the radio ABOUT what he is doing. His brain isn't focused on flirting with the ATC.
Another difference is that the ATC knows when to shut the hell up and let the pilot do his job if something goes wrong, just like someone in the passenger seat would. But someone on the other end of the phone may not even know he is talking to a driver.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[bigdavex]

If a pilot be required to be communicating on a radio while they land and take off - in a fast moving vehicle that falls out of the sky if not kept within parameters, at the edge of those parameters - I think drivers can be taught to drive safely on a cell phone.

I think a key difference here is that the people on the radio are communicating with the pilot about flying the plane, not, say, where to eat or how to fix the toilet.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[blueg3]

For commercial passenger aircraft, there's also a copilot. Both of them have substantially more training requirements than a person who wants to drive a car, and they're ostensibly focusing on the task. (Certainly they're communicating on the radio about the task.) They also have substantial electronic assistance in doing their jobs.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[TheGratefulNet]

But all of the laws give free passes to anyone with a handsfree phone. That's arguably worse than holding the phone to your ear - if you do that, at least the other drivers have a chance of noticing that you are on the phone and giving you a wide berth

why can't *this* kind of thinking (ie, actual thinking) be present in those who are making our laws?

you have a really good point. at least when you're holding the phone, others can take that into account and 'work around you'. give you more room or just stay out of your way and assume you need more 'buffer' space around you. just in case.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[seifried]

We can't even teach people to signal turns and lane changes reliably. Teaching cell phone safety to the public is about as likely to happen as someone winning the lottery jackpot 37 times in a row by finding discarded tickets in the street.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[Falconhell]

Avaiators have a little saying that goes;

Aviate, navigate, communicate.

Meaning, the last priority is to communicate.

It is extrememly doubtful any pilot worth his salt
(I certainly would not)would make radio calls whilst taking off or when about to land. Such calls are made well before critical periods of a flight-as they may be a distraction.

What you advocate is to say the least dumb.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[Man Eating Duck]

It's not about the conversation - which, unless you're unable to talk to somebody in your car and drive at the same time, in which case I would advise you to avoid chewing gum if you plan on walking - it's about holding the phone uncomfortably.

You're wrong. Anyone but a completely inexperienced driver can keep the car on the road without hitting anything even while chatting on the phone - if nothing unexpected happens. I've never had a problem myself, still I avoid using my phone while driving nowadays. At rare occasions you'll need all the attention you can muster, if for instance a kid or another bad driver does something you didn't expect. Talking on a cell phone takes away a bit of that attention, and I've read studies like this one where the conclusion is that talking on your cellphone makes you as accident-prone as a drunk driver.
Google yields plenty more, here's an abstract from another one.

Summary: This research assessed the effects of cell phone conversations on driving.
Our first study found that subjects engaged in cell phone conversations using either
a hand-held or hands-free device, were more than twice as likely to miss simulated
traffic signals than when they were not distracted by the cell phone conversation. By
contrast, performance was not disrupted by listening to radio broadcasts or listening
to a book on tape. Our second study, using a high-fidelity driving simulator, found
that subjects conversing on a hands-free cell phone were more likely to get into
traffic accidents. Analysis of driving profiles revealed that cell phone users exhibited
a sluggish response to changing traffic patterns and attempted to compensate by
increasing their following distance. We suggest that active participation in a cell
phone conversation disrupts performance by diverting attention to an engaging
cognitive context other than the one immediately associated with driving.

You shouldn't ignore the facts on this one, if nothing else to err on the side of caution. How many drivers do you know that will admit they're less than averagely skilled? Still, half of all drivers must be, and I don't want them to rear-end me while planning their dinner.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[fractoid]

Also, while the consequences for mishap in a plane are generally more severe, flying a plane generally takes a helluva lot less attention than driving a car. If you're sitting at 100km/h on the freeway, the wrong control input for 1/10th of a second could easily kill you. If you're in the cockpit of an airliner, you have an exclusive packet of airspace that's literally kilometers wide, and unless you're in final approach you're probably at least a kilometer off the ground. Take your eyes off the controls for a few seconds and there's not going to be any huge consequence since there's nothing to hit.

Re:Dangers of blocking

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

What I don't understand is why this isn't drilled into people's heads, much the same as my flight instructor did for me.

Well, for one thing, driver licensing is a joke in the USA. Its more about paying the fees and submitting yourself to their database than it is about road safety. If driver licensing were as strict as aviation licensing requirements, there would be all kinds of improvements. There would also be a lot more people driving without licenses, kinda negating much of the benefit.

What R Ya Gonna Do About It?

[rally2xs]

Ban cell phone conversations in cars? That'd be the only way - the "hands free" laws are as good as no laws at all, its the division of attention that causes the accidents, not the holding of the phone. The only thing the hands free law is good for is for keeping the other drivers from knowing that the reason that a person is driving like a drunk is that they're blabbing on the phone. And banning phones in cars will cause some people to turn in their phones and cancel the service, because the car is about the only place they use and need them (like me.) So, I want to see the study that pits the consequences of fewer cell phones in society vs. the death rate, since it may take longer to get an accident called in to 911, or for help for a lot of other things to be summoned, etc. It's always a 2-edged sword if you ban something, since you have to consider the effects of its absence as well as the effects of its presence.

Re:What about...

[Falconhell]

Heh, I can drink an iced coffee, roll a cigarette,
and smoke pot at the same time whilst driving. Would that count as multi tasking?

The Details that Matter

[rueger]

The NYT article is pretty specific that the study of 10,000 drivers was needed because all of the current estimates of the impact of cel use on driver accidents are based on unproven assumptions and (one might suggest) speculation.

The problem as always is that so much traffic safety "data" is founded on police reports of the "speed was a factor" variety. These are subjective guesswork, not scientific evidence

Certainly any distraction raises the likelihood of driver error, but that includes a multitude of things including loud music, scantily clad women on street corners, animated electronic billboards, and kids fighting in the backseat

You can't eliminate all distractions, so how can we teach drivers to filter out non-essential stimulation, or create auto technology that will protect drivers in moments of distraction?

Re:What about...

[Sponge Bath]

"I can drink an iced coffee, roll a cigarette, and smoke pot at the same time whilst driving."

Tobacco is bad for you.

Are cell phones really a big deal?

[dirk]

Driving while distracted is (and always has been) dangerous, there's no questioning that. But my question is if cell phone usage is as huge a deal as everyone makes it out to be. There hasn't been a huge increase in car crashes since cell phone came into common usage. In fact, the number of deaths from auto accidents has actually gone down as a percentage of the population according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year). So the number of deaths from car accidents hasn't increased with the introduction of this huge danger.

I think the issue is that cell phones are something easy and visible for people to blame. Where before an accident was caused by someone playing with the radio, or changing the CD, or eating or whatever, that was easily ignored or missed, now everyone sees that the person was on their cell phone and they KNOW that was the cause. Even when someone cuts them off in traffic, it must be the cell phone, when it is probably the person is either just an asshole or a bad driver. But because they were on the phone, it must be the phone.

If they want to do studies, why not do them on cell phones as well as other common things people do while driving? What effect does playing the radio, changing the CD, programming and following your GPS, eating and drinking, or anything else have on your driving?

Re:Are cell phones really a big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should also research the change in DUI laws, automobile safety and total number of auto accidents, not just fatalities.

Anytime 50 fucktards would be jumping up and down screaming that correlation != causation. This time, since the evidence suits their needs, they keep their mouths shut.

As for the rest of the causes, yes, they are causes of accidents. No one said they should be exempt.

Re:Are cell phones really a big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

he hardly introduced facts. merely stated a number of deaths on roads without taking into account the reduction in deaths from improved roads, improved vehicle safety (airbags etc) and improved vehicle control mechanisms and as such his fact is completely meaningless and does not help either side of the argument. For all we know when put in context cell phones could be causing 40,000 deaths a year 300% a year since 2000 or they could be causing zero. Simply throwing a statistics into the argument without any context is idiotic. In effect he has used facts and yet provided absolutely ZERO substance and relevence to the debate.

Re:Are cell phones really a big deal?

[TubeSteak]

has actually gone down as a percentage of the population

Sometimes you have to deal with real numbers and not percentages.
In this case, the conclusion is correct, but does not tell the whole story:
Deaths have remained essentially flat.

Despite vast increases in vehicle safety, the difference between the highest and lowest deaths is ~12,000.
Even though that is a significant fraction of the total deaths, 12,000 is almost a rounding error for a population >225 million.

If they want to do studies, why not do them on cell phones as well as other common things people do while driving? What effect does playing the radio, changing the CD, programming and following your GPS, eating and drinking, or anything else have on your driving?

The real question that should be asked is:
How come >40,000 people are still dying yearly in car accidents after 34 years of technological advancement?

Re:Are cell phones really a big deal?

[sarkeizen]

Driving while distracted is (and always has been) dangerous, there's no questioning that. But my question is if cell phone usage is as huge a deal as everyone makes it out to be. There hasn't been a huge increase in car crashes since cell phone came into common usage. In fact, the number of deaths from auto accidents has actually gone down as a percentage of the population according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year). So the number of deaths from car accidents hasn't increased with the introduction of this huge danger.

Perhaps it's because your statistics degree was revoked.
I don't know who "everyone" is but for example cell phone usage can be a "huge deal" in it's contribution to someone's ability to drive successfully but still equate to a small number of deaths. I don't really see how you can't see that. Now what you are likely doing is using a special definition for "huge danger" but that's par for the course here.

If they want to do studies, why not do them on cell phones as well as other common things people do while driving? What effect does playing the radio, changing the CD, programming and following your GPS, eating and drinking, or anything else have on your driving?

At least one study appeared to do a comparison to other distractions: Research also shows that drivers conversing with fellow passengers do not present the same danger, because adult riders help keep drivers alert and point out dangerous conditions and tend to talk less in heavy traffic or hazardous weather.

Re:Are cell phones really a big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go spend a few days riding around on a motorcycle and see how many stupid things happen when people are on cellphones. Most people barely have enough brain capacity to drive. Put a cellphone in their hands and their brain capacity quickly becomes zero.

Re:Are cell phones really a big deal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wah, wah, wah, the nanny state won't let me use my heavily-subsidized three-ton piece of heavy machinery without basic safety precautions, and just because it's a leading cause of early death and injuries. WHERE IS MY FREEDOM?

And so it was...

[msimm]

in the year 2009 the majority of earths then human population began the struggle to implement true multithreading.

Shocked and dismayed...

[ghostis]

I was shocked and dismayed as I read this article on my iPhone while headed into work on the turnpike this morning.

Ban Ban Ban, I wanna be sedated

[Tablizer]

Driving while arguing with a woman is also dangerous. I ran 2 stop-signs because of such. Are they going to ban that too?

There is already a perfectly adequate law

[Savior_on_a_Stick]

It called Maintaining Control of Your Vehicle.

Good drivers don't really need any other law in order to comply with the above.

They observe what's going on around them, and adapt accordingly - whether it's slowing down, stopping for a nap, adding following distance, or refraining from phone use.

What we actually need is enforcement of the above.

Involved in an accident?

The burden is on you to prove you did everything a reasonable person would to prevent it.

Currently, I can pull out from an intersection and deliberately t-bone someone and suffer no serious repercussions, unless I'm proven impaired, or some other gross act.

"Oops - I didn't seem him" gets people out of what should have been criminal charges all the time.

I blame mandatory insurance for some of this.

Everyone looks at accidents like "you were insured? no harm - no foul.

I see people every day who should be locked up for the lack of common care they put into their driving.

Re:What about...

[Runaway1956]

"Maybe some people can handle it. Maybe they can't."

It isn't terribly different from drinking and driving - both affect judgement. Drinking is outlawed for drivers, so cellphones should be too. Saying that "I can handle it" is one of the macho things men said 40 years ago, before they ran a kid over on the way home from the bar.

Anyone who claims that the cell phone doesn't impair their driving is being dishonest with himself, not to mention being dishonest with the rest of us.

Re:News report

[fractoid]

Troll? It's obvious that f**king around with your mobile phone while driving is going to take your attention off the road and probably cause you to crash. If NHSA is too scared of upsetting congressmen who dick around with their phones while driving, then I think the attitude towards mobile phone use in cars is pretty clear: they'll never give their phones up, and they'd never let them down.

This is easy to fix.

[Therefore I am]

The insurance companies have the whip hand here. If they refused road accident claims for drivers on the phone/texting at the moment of an accident the problem would instantly go away. . . . . . . . If you also added large fines for bosses who demand that their employees answer when driving, then that would also go a long way to help reduce accidents.

Read the Fing Paper - Its BS

[fluffy99]

The general conclusion on page 3 says it all. No difference between hands-free and non-hands-free from a "cognitive distraction" standpoint. It says nothing about visual distraction of having to look at the phone. It just points out the obvious conclusion that talking on a phone is a "cognitive distraction". Well duh! Read a little further "it is not possible to make a direct connection to crash risk". Okay, so we have the same old problem of correlation doesn't equal causation.

This paper only cites old, semi-questionable, existing research. No quality new data was collected or presented. This was supposed to be a fresh study. Instead this thing looks like a grade-C high-school student spent a few hours on the internet digging up some previous papers, and then summarizing the conflicting data.

Another very valid reason for trashing this crappy study (aside from shoddy research) is that the "independent research paper" was written as though it were intended to put forth suggested policies and laws. Really, go read the freaking thing. The bit about pissing off Congress, is because Congress knows full well that the Fed Govt (much less the lowly NHSTA) can not dictate how the States or Corporations write their laws. Of course nothing saying they can't bribe the states with highway funds like they did with the 55mph thing.

Re:Read the Fing Paper - Its BS

[chrb]

It just points out the obvious conclusion that talking on a phone is a "cognitive distraction". Well duh! Read a little further "it is not possible to make a direct connection to crash risk". Okay, so we have the same old problem of correlation doesn't equal causation.

It says "The nature of those degradations and changes are symptomatic of potential safety-related problems"... Sounds very much like the old argument pushed by the tobacco lobby "the nature of degradations and changes are symptomatic of potential health-related problems, but it is not possible to make a direct connection between smoking and cancer"

Re:News report

[EsbenMoseHansen]

But that is exactly the trouble. I know people who can and do text blind, with one hand. They could text while being only very slightly distracted. Then there are people who drive into stuff while looking at the landscape, or talking to someone on the other seat. And I know a lot of people who would not be distracted by your cute girl :) I see no other reasonable legislative route than "though shall not engage in overly distracting behavior while driving.", and letting the police & judges handle the rest.

Re:News report

[TheCarp]

Actually, like many things, it depends entirely on the individual.... and honestly.... 1000 fatalities a year in a country of 300 million people is barely statistically significant. I recently went to look up the number of murders by serial killers in the US in a year, and some numbers put that in the same range.

Given the numbers of people who drive... I think we can call those relatively similar risks.

I have texted while driving. I have seen people do it well, I have seen people do it poorly (I rate myself as somewhere in the middle, but I do try to compensate by trading off taking a lot longer to type in the text by taking my eyes off the screen and back onto the road with every letter.

I hear some people can txt without looking at all... I am not that good.

The same is true for driving while talking... some people are nearly as good at is as they drive normally, others are total retards and will sit for 5 minutes on the inside of a rotary letting traffic entering pass while they yap away (yes, I have seen this)

Frankly, I think that our government has far better things to worry about. This is such a non-issue.

They would help more people if they directed their attention elsewhere.

-Steve

Re:News report

[EsbenMoseHansen]

I'm sort of with that, except it means that you don't know what you can and can't do.

Actually, I would be amazed if there isn't such a clause in your laws in whatever country you live in already.

The police and judges can't actually determine how much attention you were paying to what, and the person who is actually the safety driver on the road could end up in court because the authorities can't tell. I think there's a lot to be said for the sharp steel spike from the steering wheel to the driver's chest...

That is the price we pay for "innocent until found guilty--- lots of people gets off the hook until they actually cause some damage. Or learns how to drive with whatever distraction the world offers.

As for the spike--- I doubt it would have much effect after a short while. I know what terrifies me into driving 30km/h in my neighborhood (the limit is 40): The thought of a kid jumping out behind a car or bush or something.

To the best of my knowledge, the legislation is fine. Perhaps parts needs to be enforced better, and maybe some adjustments are necessary, but overall, I think it is about as good as it gets until we get fully automated cars.

Re:News report

[digitig]

I'm sort of with that, except it means that you don't know what you can and can't do.

Actually, I would be amazed if there isn't such a clause in your laws in whatever country you live in already.

The offence here (UK) seems to be based on something going wrong with the actual driving -- an example given is "someone missing a traffic light turning green because they are singing along to their favourite tune a little too excitedly"; just "singing along to their favourite tune a little too excitedly" doesn't look as if it will do it.

The police and judges can't actually determine how much attention you were paying to what, and the person who is actually the safety driver on the road could end up in court because the authorities can't tell. I think there's a lot to be said for the sharp steel spike from the steering wheel to the driver's chest...

That is the price we pay for "innocent until found guilty--- lots of people gets off the hook until they actually cause some damage. Or learns how to drive with whatever distraction the world offers.

I'm more concerned with people failing to get off the hook when there was really nothing wrong with their driving.