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Navigating a Geek Marriage?
JoeLinux writes "I am soon to marry my true love (a girl! yes! they do exist!). She is a literary geek, whereas I am a gaming/Linux geek. Being the RTFM-style geeks that we are, we have been reading up on marriage, making things work, etc. Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife. A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.).
Sports is an example, not the only cause of neglect. If your girl is a literary geek, she can probably explain this concept to you. Ask her about it when you've finished a gaming or Linux debugging session which prevented you from installing the bookshelf that you promised her 2 weeks ago.
Being in a similar situation, I'd also be interested in hearing suggestions from married geeks with more XP
It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
Neglect due to interest in World of Warcraft.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
Don't read books to make your marriage work. Don't ask strangers on slashdot like geeks were some sort of alien race. Get advice from people you know who are already married, parents, relatives -- people you know and trust. And then, relax, ignore it all, as the biggest thing is "different strokes for different folks"/"everyone has to learn for themselves".
Small piece of advice.
We geeks find it hard to "get in touch with our emotional side" sometimes...
Concentrate on enjoying each other's company. Enjoy being with each other. Stop trying to analyse the hell out of it and just ENJOY it :)
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
Replace every passage in all the marriage books you've read where it says "Sports" - with "gaming/Linux geek" and you'll have exactly the same result.
However, don't believe everything you read! :-)
IAAMG (I'm a married geek), so take my simple advice - Patience, forgiveness, always count to 10.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
Learn how to talk, how to fight, and how to consider the other person, and you'll be fine. Don't try to own your partner and let him/her do things with other people that you can't reasonably do together. Don't be afraid to show your feelings, and talk about little issues before they become big issues. Compromises are inevitable, so don't think of these are a failure on either part.
The single biggest thing that is needed to make a marriage work is simply work. You can't expect a relationship to last without maintenance. Make sure to have time for each other when times are rough, and you'll be fine.
And ultimately, if things eventually stop working, divorce is not really a failure. It's simply an option to be considered if the relationship is hurting either or both parties.
.: Max Romantschuk
That spells the end for this one.
But you'll learn, augment your common sense (It's a super power!), and apply it to marriage 2.0
I am an engineer (ME), my wife is an engineer (EE).
We have been married for 15 years now and things are good.
1) I dated non engineers and let me tell you those relationships were more "active" in every sense of the word. But you actually tire of it quite quickly because you are constantly trying to figure things out.
2) The relationship becomes pretty constant since both you are pretty constant people. That is a good thing, but as my wife says NEVER take it for granted. Appreciate each and every day.
3) Be there for each other. I seriously mean this one. Be there for the other person through it all. EVEN if your logic says that the other person is wrong.
4) Support the other person. My wife is a director level manager and I have worked for her. Here in Europe some look at that as being a "wuss". After meeting me people quickly realize I am not a wuss, but there is a stigma associated with it. Though times are changing...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
How can a literary geek not realize that "(neglect due to interest in sports, etc.)." has an etc. in it?
Neglect due to over fixating on any one thing for a length of time, be it sports, books, linux, gaming, work, hanging out with friends and whatever else might come between you is what they're talking about.
When reading those kinds of books and articles, don't think "This doesn't apply to me because $reason" think "what would make this apply to me"
Geez ... and you guys call yourselves geeks?
You don't need books to read about how a marriage works.
Believe me, all you need is love for your spouse and respect for each other. If you both have that, any problems (yep, don't believe anyone telling you that a marriage doesnt have its rainy days!), can and will be solved.
Don't look into books, look into yourself, and your partner as the most cherished person in the world. That's all.
Hey, worked for my 20 years of marriage, lol!
http://www.automatiq.se
The first rule of seeking relationship advice on Slashdot:
1. Do not seek relationship advice on Slashdot.
Throw the books into the next garbage bin...
There is all to it, only a minority of marriages/relationships work in that scheme, the rest has been
posted by others alreasy.
One thing I cannot figure out is why all those books are written in those stereotype ways while
most relationships do not work that way anyway.
I'm a gamer / geek who is married to a wife with a university degree in german studies and
/.-comments. For our marriage, permanent :-). This takes the
literature.
There is no recipe that could be quoted in books or
communication is the most important key. We talk (even when both are travelling due to our
jobs) at leat an hour per day. Beyond that it is helpful, that we both don't loose our humor in
difficult situations: e.g. we agreed beforehand, that everything that ever happens will be my fault.
So by now if something happens, i even claim my privilege to be the guilty party
sting out of any discussion, whos fault it may be.
CU & good luck!
My experience: 1. Find out what's important to HER. For instance, birthdays never seemed a big deal to me, but she likes a little bit of a celebration -- nothing fancy, mind, but a few ribbons here & there. 2. Listen beyond the words. Something that doesn't usually bother her might get to her sometimes; find out why she was unhappy to start with. Work, relationship, family, ...
3. Do something unexpected and nice once in a while.
4. Trust her. I know it sounds obvious, but I was hesitant to tell her about some things first. I did, anyway, and eventually found that it's much less a big deal when you're in it together.
Good luck!
I think you're already a leg-up on many other marriages. Obviously, you've talked about your union in detail. That's it -- communication. Just like kids, there are no guides or books to follow.
That said, my only piece of advice to you (which I would give to any married couple) is to make sure you have some "me" time. You can't possible enjoy everything together, all the time, 24/7. If your wife likes absolutely everything you do/eat/say, you didn't marry a woman --- you married a fembot. Take some time to explore an interest on your own, and encourage her to do the same.
I'd guess that you being a Linux geek and she being a literary geek won't have much effect on your marriage. Other things, such as what you each expect from marriage, how you communicate (or whether you communicate at all!), how considerate each is of the other's needs, and so on, are more important. Forget the marriage/relationship books. They're pretty useless, and for the most part sell well because lots of people think that there can be manual for everything. It's not true; some things you just have to learn by doing. I've been happily married for 15 years. It takes patience and work to get through rough spots, but the good times make all that more than worth it.
Don't live by books, live by your brain. Books can help provide inspiration but you're not stupid... your brain knows if/when there's something wrong and how to fix it. People normally run off and cry to their friends in order to be told what they already knew. You know this. You know if the marriage is working or not. You know if you want to / need to work at it or not. To be honest, a marriage you need to "work at" in any way probably wasn't started on the best footing ("I don't really love you any more, darling, but let's work at it"? It's almost like saying "I don't find you sexually attractive any more but let's keep trying and see if I can keep it up" - Oh, and marriages based on sex aren't really marriages).
Ignore therapists, books, courses, "relationship counselling" (Yeurk!), all the other nonsense... live your lives together and be happy for as long as you both can and, if you can't, see what can be done to fix it. Sometimes that means divorce is actually the best way to find happiness for you both... so be it.
"I'm doing this because I read it in a book" comes nowhere near "I'm doing this because I want to make you happy".
Now run off and enjoy married life with your geek girl, you lucky sod.
wow, asking for relationship/advice about girls on slashdot? talk about going to the wrong place... seriously though, the best thing you can do to ensure a happy marraige is to at least make an attempt to work out some of the difficult issues before you actually get married... Do you or your GF have any annoying/disgusting habits: (weird laugh, make noises, leave toenail clippings around, etc..) those sorts of things tend to be ignored in the beginning when things are going well but once your married they can get very irritating very quickly. Secondly, work out basic stuff like finances: how is the money going to be spent and on what, how are you going to pay bills.. and so on... get that sort of stuff worked out before. Finally, I hope you are getting a decent amount of sex now because however much that is, its going to be *less* once you are married. if you arent getting much or any now then you might want to rethink things...
There is no stock "off the shelf" marriage; every marriage is self-built, like Linux kernel 0.01.
You must learn to modify the source to fix problems that come up. There is no manual, and although there is a large user community, all of them have different systems, and consequently may give you bad advice. At least you have a co-author to help you.
Here is one piece of advice. Neither of you should play timesink online games, such as MMOs, unless you do it together or set clear boundaries about the times when you will play. Otherwise you or your wife will use those games to escape the marriage when it becomes difficult, and avoiding problems will make them worse.
The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
Just read the normal books, but when it says "watching sport", read "playing Warcraft".
If you want to know what marriage will be like, just go live with the girl for a year or two. If you get on, if you don't argue, if don't annoy each other, if you can see a future together then go get married. If you can't do this then split up. I really don't understand why any further hyper-analysis is required. Books will dish up all sorts of blanket aphorisms and pat advice but at the end of the day it's up to you and her to make it work, not some stupid book.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
The other underlying principle I'd add is: take the attitude that you're a team, and its you against the world--not necessarily in a combative sense, but in a "we stick together" and an economic (perhaps competative) sense. If you do these two things, you'll do well, and weather just about any storm.
There are other obvious guidelines, like not tearing each other down to your friends (even joking about the ball-and-chain will propogate memes that undermine what you have, so don't do it), not engaging in activity that can result in relationship-destroying behavior that you'll regret--like drunken "boy's nights out" in nightclubs or pick-up joints, or my personal favorite: these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ... but these are all common sense things that are directly derived from the two basic principles above: be absolutely honest with each other even when (or more precisely, especially when) it is difficult, and stick together as a team against the inevitable external pressures that the rest of the world will exert (in whatever form it takes, be it economic, cultural, external tempation, vicious inlaws, jealous exes, or whatever).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Geek lesson number one - establish your communication protocols.
Er. That's about it really. Anyone who thinks 'true love' can make everything right is wrong. What it really takes is open and honest communication - even about stuff that you might feel uncomfortable bringing up.
How you accomplish this is different for different couples and 'geeky' couples might well handle it differently.
...it could all end in a Geek Tragedy! I'm sorry...
Don't be a fool like I was
Don't go into a coma and hope that problems will fix themselves (they don't).
Tell her that she is special (she is).
Get your ass off the computer chair do stuff with her (she wants you to take part in her activities)
Get out of bed when the alarm goes off, shave and make her breakfast, buy her flowers ones in a while.
If you think that marrying a geek is extremely different than a non geek you are dead wrong. I married a geek girl, and I nearly lost her because I thought she was 90% logic and 10% emotions. I was wrong and now 10 years after our marriage I have just gone through the worst summer ever, and have finally realized that she deserves much more than I have been offering her.
I fell into a vegetable state where I was waiting for things (we were fighting a lot) to get better. Some guys watch sports, other play computer games and some do other shit. No matter what one chooses, all these activities boils down to a low activity veggie state where one resigns and hopes things, in some magical way will get better.
After some serious TLR (Total Life re-engineering) I'm back on track and we are rebuilding our relationship now. All it took was for me to realize that my special little geek girl are as all other girls, they need more than pure logic and reasoning, they need complements and they need to feel that they are special in the way only you can make her feel. A male geek and a female geek has as much in common as a male and a female, while a female geek and a "ordinary" female has almost everything in common.
Someone asking marriage advice on Slashdot (of all places) -> who else can we ask something important? Mmm, probably asking George Bush about achieving world peace!
A picture is worth exactly 1024 words.
In the U.S. 58% of marriages end in divorce. And of the remaining 42%, my guess is that at least half of them become loveless marriages, with the two people being miserable and staying together for various reasons (e.g. financial considerations, "we have to think of the kids", "what will my family say?", "what will I do if I'm alone?", "divorce is against my religion").
So you're entering an arrangement with an over 75% chance of failure, one way or another. Why would a sensible person do that? "Geeks" are supposedly smart people. Marriage is an outdated institution (its origins are in property relations, it was a way for families to merge their property and wealth). If two people love each other, they'll be together, regardless of whether it's officially sanctioned by the state.
But be careful. It's perhaps even easier to fall out of love than it is to fall in love. And when it happens (as it most likely will), it's easier to get out of when you don't have all the legal crap to go through.
As a geek couple, I can say after 12 + years there are certain real pitfalls.
This may vary for you, but here's a few key items:
Your intellect can be very clever at making up lies, hiding what you really feel, and it basically just gets in the way. This hiding and dissociation from your feelings can take different forms. If you're the kind of guy who tries to be nice and tries to be a good partner, then you may find that you hide your natural anger and hide your resentments. Eventually these will bite you hard. If on the other hand you or your partner are basically quite selfish, lack empathy, and lack a basic goodness, then she or you can do the most outrageously selfish things but rationalize them away using your clever intellect. (I know one woman who would cry "sexist" if you said she was behaving badly, on the basis that had she been a man, you'd have complemented him for being "strong" (some people are educated beyond their intelligence)).
So feeling is very important. But what's also important, and this is beyond therapy now... what is also becoming more important for modern couples is that, once you both accept each other as equals (you're not stereotypical gender roles from the 50s), once you accept each other as equals, doesn't mean you are the same. You still have to be a man and she still has to be a woman, otherwise there is no difference between you, and there is no polarity of attraction, and sex and romance will disappear completely. See David Deida's books for a challenging and difficult slap in the face on this subject. Your woman may often act crazy--she is testing you and she wants to feel your masculine ability to be a solidly dependable rock who can stand there and still love her. Once she knows she can trust you to be a rock, she can relax into her feminine side and blossom and be sexy. And this little drama will repeat itself over and over. If you don't want that, get a best friend and forget about romantic partners.
Dear OP,
clearly you are not the target audience of those books, throw them out. You two are the only ones who know enough about your relationship to suggest anything, but if your mindset is having fun walking through life together, you'll be better off than thinking about all the things that go wrong. You mostly find what you're looking for, you know.
And if you let it get boring, it will be boring, and probably short, too.
Geek marriage is not that different to any other marriage. Three pointers:
Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
My wife and I are both geeks (she's an SEO and I'm a DBA) and we just picked something we wanted. We wrote our own non-denominational vows and organised a marriage officer who was happy to perform the ceremony. We found a venue we both liked and did the whole ceremony so that we both enjoyed ourselves. We didn't do a first dance since neither of us are into slow dancing and we skipped stuff like having a wedding cake. In the end after the meal we all sat around outside by the bar chatting with all our friends and drinking and everyone had a great relaxed time celebrating together. Why try conform to an ideal thats not your own?
Get a copy of The Sixty Minute Marriage by Rob Parsons. Although aimed at Christians (you don't say if that applies), the large majority of the advice applies to anyone. Highly recommended: Parsons' line of thinking is very clear and logical.
Ydco co
Really? Which books were these? You know, the jock has been out as a male stereotype for over 20 years now, and likewise the cheerleader. Hint: marriage is not about anyone's hobbies or interests, it's about being able to tolerate another person hanging around for the next 40 years. Yup, I just checked and sure as sugar it's a kdawson story. PS stop pretending you're special.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
1) You are equals in the relationship. ...
Balance the things you want to do with the things she wants to do.
2) Have discussions, not arguments.
Going to sleep on an argument is not a good plan, try to make peace - doesn't matter if you won or lost the argument...
3) The odd's of an argument decrease dramatically the more you talk to each other
4)
5) Profit
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Marriage is like a static group in any RPG. The same basic facts apply.
1. You need goals to achieve anything. You need to achieve things to be happy. If one or more of your group is unhappy, the result will inevitably be dissolution of the group. Set goals early, set them often.
2. Whenever undertaking any task it is important to understand each group member's role. Though not strictly necessary, it is good to have a leadership position to orchestrate any support roles. This position may be shifted around the group based on whatever the scenario requires.
3. Eventually you will reach conflict, it's inevitable. Practice care in participating in conflicts. Attempt to understand all party's grievances and complaints and effect a useful resolution. Submit the proposed resolution to the group and hope for a diplomatic reception.
4. Keep the channels of communication open. Be sure all group members understand and approve of any actions prior to taking them. Nobody wants a Leeroy Jenkins in their group!
5. When you wish for your group to grow, the most important prerequisite is always preparation.
6. As your group grows in numbers, avoid favoritism. All members should be treated with respect and given the assistance they need to become fully useful participants.
7. Members of your group are unlikely to be so exclusively! They may still have close ties to the group or groups that nurtured them. Be sure to respect those ties and even assist in maintaining them.
8. That said, members of the group must understand their priorities. Most successful groups have prioritized with their own goals in mind.
9. Finally, you are not the group. And the group is not you. Sometimes you must focus on your own goals. Always take time to solo and be understanding of the need of others to do the same.
Those are just a few tips on successful grouping in World of Wedcraft. Good luck!
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
My fiance and I -- epidemiology and engineering PhD students, respectively -- found this classic text helpful:
Kiersy and Bates
Please Understand Me: Character and Temperament Types
http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Me-Character-Temperament/dp/0960695400
Asking for marriage advice on Slashdot... it doesn't get much geekier than that! Congratulations, you've brightened my day! Oh, my $0.02: ask people who have seen many marriages up close, but always from outside: find a priest. A good one. There are plenty.
1. Go geocaching. http://www.geocaching.com/ (be geeky outdoors) .. Outdoors, in nature, no books, no pc just you, your spouse and a gps. This will force you to interact, solve problems together which will teach you to solve YOUR problems together..
2. Do "the mariage course" http://relationshipcentral.org/ It almost ended my marriage but made it stronger in the long run. It is very practical because it is adapted to your needs. there are common theme nights where a subject is explained and then you discuss it together. every couple in our course enjoyed and had benefits from different subjects.
As with the other posts I've seen, Communication is very very important. But, there will be power struggles in a non-dominant marriage, and more than you like to think (especially after you've been together for several years). How to deal with that is non-trivial and non-self-help-book-solvable. But if you're both emotionally stable and adaptable people, you'll find your path through the problem. Just don't let it blindside you.
And then there's kids. Be totally sure you're on the same page about kids from the start. Not just yes/no or how many, but under what set of rules will you raise them, feed them, reprimand/punish them, what privileges will you allow (TV use, bedtimes, outside time requirement/allowances), etc, etc, etc... The subtleties in raising kids (no sugar-coated cereals, must learn a stick-shift before getting a license, etc) are the biggest source of power struggles in our household.
To the "football watching" comments, bah. The problem with going to watch football with the guys (or WoW, whatever) is not a cause, but an effect. It's the result of an unhealthy relationship. How do you cope with losing power struggles that you deeply care about? Because you will lose -- the sooner you accept it, the better. Just admit defeat and go have a beer with the guys and let it go.
Get digital copies of those books, open them with your favorite text editor and do a :
:)
ReplaceAll("sport", "WoW");
ReplaceAll("beer", "Mountain Dew");
ReplaceAll("talking about woman", "techtalk");
ReplaceAll("cars", "computers");
ReplaceAll("espn", "Discovery Channel");
ReplaceAll("Playboy", "torrents");
ReplaceAll("Hustler", "torrents");
There you go. The books will make a lot more sense to you now.
I would read "I Will Never Leave You", by Hugh and Gayle Prather (married something like 45 years now), which they wrote after, during their years as marriage counselors, they noticed a dramatic shift toward increased broken relationships that the participants originally intended to be permanent. One issue it addresses in detail that seems like it could potentially be relevant to you in the future is, What do you do when you seem very compatible but then one or both of you change so you seem not to have much in common anymore? Does it mean you're not "meant to be together" anymore? (Hint: no.)
Can I mod something +1 Scary if it's true but I wish it weren't?
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
I completely agree.
I find that the great thing about communication is that the more you do it the less often you will fight. Fights are normally just misunderstandings, caused by a lack of communication.
You will fight of course, any couple who tells you they don't is either a lier or in trouble.
Dude, how about a marriage-oriented marriage instead? You're not entering some club, you know.
Honesty is the key. A lot of people will disagree with me there, but if you can't be honest to your effing partner, with whom can you ever be honest then?
When I asked my first girl out, who happens to be my wife now, I told her my views on life and how I wanted and needed a relationship to be (both sexually and not) from the beginning. She happened to agree with what I said. I was honest and she was honest. That's why we've been married for almost four and a half years now and have been together for over seven.
No matter if one of the people involved tends toward submissive or dominant, the important part is that the relationship is built on being equal partners. Equal at least in the right to be happy and get from the relationship what they need. But to make each other happy, one must know what the other needs and what they have trouble dealing with.
I don't know how people can expect to live together for the rest of their lives, ideally, when they don't dare bring up wishes and dreams, fears and basic needs for fear of losing the other. How can people believe that someone whom you're afraid to tell your most important secrets, the things that are such a big part of you, would make a good partner?
The geekyness... what the heck does it matter? Whether you like being called a geek or not, the fact remains that we all have hobbies and interests. Being a geek is merely a label for how widely spread your hobby is (gaming retains its geeky status only through nostalgic means). Can you accept her hobbies? Can she accept yours? If not, you're going to have trouble that has nothing to do with geekyness anyway.
Yep, and if nothing else, trying to understand the other one and talk about stuff, without getting mad, is important. And yeah it takes a lot work sometimes.
Also dont let it get boring, even if it easily goes into that. Do stuff together, even if it doesn't interest you. My gf likes it when I do stuff I dont really like with her (those damn freaking clothing stores argh), and I love it when she tries stuff I like. For example she sometimes play games I like and I drink beer and watch her. She didn't like GTA IV, but Vice City was fun. From FPS games she tried left4dead and liked being infected in versus mode, cos you hided and then suddenly attacked the other team. And for me it was nice watching her play and drink a few beers while on it.
I'm not married but in an years long relationship with her, and I've kinda noticed I've let stuff like that slip and more starting to take it for granted. Pretty much forgot lots of presents and happenings too, or was too busy with other stuff and the relationship has gone a bit down. Luckily not too much tho. But its good to keep things like that around. Stuff you did when you had just met and fell in love, and not just take it granted and start being boring :)
You know, some of us are actually married (with a woman, shock, horror!) and we passed though lots of those pitfalls.
But back on subject. I suggest some NLP training - it's a good stuff if you want to understand other people. I know, lots of you will not agree, but I still believe that the basic parts of it are very useful, relationship wise. Best is that those not only apply to marriage but all kind of relationships.
Then I'd get into some books/audiobooks about negotiations. Only Win-Win stuff. Surprisingly helpful ;)
You can also try to get stuff like "Laugh your way to better marriage". It floats somewhere on intertubes.
Go to elbitz.net and search there. They have lots of cool material. Just stop your urge when you get there and build the ratio as it's quite hard later ;)
Have fun - marriage is to make your life better. If it is not going to make it better - why bother?
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
Give her looks a rating out of 10. Then post that on the fridge. Encourage her to lose some weight to increase her rating. If she objects compare it to levelling up on WoW.
Name her breasts Han and Chewie.
Tell her that everytime you put on your Wedding Ring you hear the voice of Sauron calling you to do evil.
Inform her that her feet are as cute as a hobbits.
When times are rough tell her that you wish you took the blue pill.
Remind her that you are a true geek by not having sex with her unless she accepts money first.
Tell her you hope you both have a kid like Jake Lloyd one day.
I'd disagree with you on those bachelor parties, but then again, only very few people have such a relentless grip on their jealousy as me and my wife do.
I will agree with the honesty, though. You made a good point: Demand it of your partner. In fact, you might have to TEACH it to her in the first place. I married a geek girl, not the cheerleader-type and she still had to be taught that yes, it is okay to tell me the truth, no it will not result in a fight and yes, I do want to hear her opinion.
My wife has had to deal with a mother who thought she had to be like her in order to be an acceptable child. You can imagine how puberty impacted on that relationship, though, so this situation might not necessarily apply to other women. Do not forget, though, that the stereotypes of a beer drinking, football addicted husband and the constantly frustrated and nagging wife come from somewhere. They are so prevalent in our media that, it seems, a lot of girls think that's the way it's supposed to work. Some of them have to literally be retaught.
Just like she will be once a month, so get used to that.
I can't wait for the sandwich making tutorial
...it's never, never, NEVER compromise!!! :-)
"What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
Overanalyzing
I've had (... still have ... in a way such relationships never die) a 16 year relationship with a woman. We have one daughter, 11 years old. My advice on marrige is quite simple: Don't marry. Or marry with a 2-inch thick marriage contract. The simple fact that either of the SOs can walk away, with (nearly) no legal commitments holding them back contributes greatly to respecting each other and acknowledging each others sacrafices that where done for a relationship. And on this aspect of issues i'd like to quote this:
"People who are intensly in Love often forget that for it to last you need to actively maintain it. Emotionally and in your attitude towards your significant other."
Every single day. Don't get me wrong: You can marry, if it is for outside reasons. Maybe you have to marry for tax reasons or because you live in a society where only married couples are accepted. Maybe you or your SO is a federal employee and will have to move to a different state whenever superiors say so and there only are exemptions for married couples. However, what you should do - both of you, at the same time and in the same intensity - is treat each other as if you weren't married. Every day. That's easiest to ensure if you simply don't marry or do so with a thick contract that seals details.
Me and her, we've each had our share of affairs on the side lately and we actually console each other when things get rough or someone of us is lovesick about it. However, we have never lost our respect for one another. I went through a solid stretch of of near flat-out neglegt by her for years, and simply the fact that I knew I could walk out of the door at any time had me stick with her and my responsibilies towards our daughter. If you marry, it should be under circumstances under which you both feel comfortable with your self and are sure that you can give what the other expects of you and what is required to make the others life better than if they were alone.
And if you, after all this advice, *do* marry, *don't* spend huge amounts of money on the wedding. Marry, maybe invite your best friends and families to a dinner or party or something, but don't go into huge dept just for a wedding. The positive effect (bragging rights, etc.) wears of quickly and if that's all your doing it for it's pointless to do anyway. And you get the best marriage effect ('My wife' / 'my husband') anyways.
Congratulations on finding the love of your life and my best wishes to both of you!
My 2 Euros.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Wow......Nice
The best advice I have to give is to find other married people or people in long term relationships that are heading towards marriage. Single people are alright but they have completely different priorities and if you hang out with them all the time you are pretty much saying to your significant other that you want to be single too. Find other geek couples and do things with them that do not involve sex. Swinging does not work, polyamarous relationships do not work and cheating only works if you are way more clever/intelligent than your significant other. A marriage of equals is a lot more work than a normal relationship, good luck.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
What kind of analysis is that, is that really how your girlfriend feels? Of course it's important to see the best sides of your mate and being able to appreciate those. But that doesn't mean women, or men, need someone to lookup to.
Please give some reference. I have a very hard time believing in your facts, making it even harder to believe in the conclusion.
Recommended reading for you: Voltairine.
Make her rewrite the Linux Documentation !
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
a) Try to be interested in what she likes, and try to convince her that what you do is interesting (so you increase the overlap), there is a big movement on "using literary content for new games" so you should at least have something to discuss.
b) do you tend to nag ? is she nagging you for this or that... ? it will get worse, deal with it (by running away fast if necessary....)
c) make sure that you both have a geographical zone in your place of living where the other is totally forbidden to comment (if you can't do not marry)
d) try to be nice to each other, which often means : NOT doing anything (if she likes to cook, in most cases cooking yourself is a way to make her wash the dishes, or criticize her meals this is "not nice") (works both way obviously)..
e) speak about "it"...
Good Luck
you'll need it.... (just teasing, we all need it)
So called "geeks" are no different to anyone else. So like anyone else your marriage will be a success if:
1) Your wife has no other man but yourself
2) Your wife should not encourage any other man to make love to her, or kiss or caress her
3) Your wife should remember to kiss and caress you, to honour and obey you and obey your every whim and fancy seven days a week and twice on sundays
4) Your wife should honour your name so that all other women will honour it also
5) Your wife should no provoke you to anger
6) Your wife should not search your pockets or night or annoy you with her hearsays
7) If you are walking in the street with another woman your wife should not shout at you in the street but wait intelligently until you get home where the matter can be dealt with decently.
8) Your wife should neither drink nor smoke
9) Your wife should not commit adultery since if she does she risks forcing you to murder her
10) Your wife should not covet her neighbours dress, nor her shoes, nor her bureau, nor her bed nor her hat nor anything which is hers. Your wife should not call your attention to anything which may be for sale in any stores since you will provide her with everything she needs for her daily purpose.
One thing that I learnt very quickly is that it is worth the effort to set reminders for Birthdays, Wedding-anniversaries, Engagement-anniversaries, Valentines Day et cetera. NOT only on the day itself: 1 month AND 1 week in advance: the month for reservation options for restaurants or gifts that take longer to get, and the 1 week option just in case you somehow did not get to finish the 1-month-idea. And you can just explain that you NEVER would forget $eventfulDay, but somehow are not really good in keeping track of the current date. That she will understand. But you are both German, of is it just you being German, is the wedding taking place in Germany? We Europeans _could_ do with a bit more facts.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Don't get a backup wife!
It will hurt you in the long run, both financial and physically (besides it is illegal in some countries). Backup is only a good idea for data.
Carbon based humanoid in training.
Clearly you don't understand sandwiches at all otherwise you would not have said that. Come back when you can demonstrate that you know what a sandwich actually is.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books.
Wow, coming from the slashdot crowd, I find this really amazing.
One of the things that kick off problems in a marriage is the "better-than you" attitude.
I find it funny how the guys that tell you "do not read books about good marriage!" proceed to WRITE a whole page of how they think you should proceed, and expect you to follow it.
My "meta"-advice? do both. Check for books, get recommendations on books (a female cousin of mine recommended me three books when I married, I can't remember them unfortunately).
Do however also consult people that seem to have a successful marriage. Or what *you* consider one. (A successful marriage for a CEO may be to leave his wife at home while going on "work" trip to bang other woman). I specially recommend to ask these people after inviting them some alcohol, it helps them loose their tongue.
Last but not least, you should get all the "advice" and "information" you got, lay it on the table along with your beloved one, and talk about what do you (both of you) like and what you don't.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
I was married a year ago, and my experience has confirmed what I already had believed: communication is paramount. Honesty and openness is where it is at. My fiancee and I read many books during our engagement, and we found that (for the most part) they were only useful for finding discussion topics.
It sounds like the OP does not currently need specific advice. What might be helpful would be a list of topics that marrying couples should consider, along with something to facilitate discussion. Neglect (parameterized over interests of both groom and bride) is one important issue, but others might include life goals (Are these goals compatible? Do you want to be going in the same direction?) and values of many varieties (financial, religious, child-rearing, etc.). It might serve him well to search himself to see what things he does not want to talk about, or is afraid to discuss. As time passes, these things do not really get easier to bring up.
What I found helps is having two joint checking accounts. Have one with your name first and one with your wife's name first. Use the same bank so you can transfer funds between the accounts easily. Money is one of the most common issues, this gives you each control.
Always take the time to say sorry. Find the a common talking forum to discuss problems. The main failure of a relationship is communication, so find out a way that will allow you to do it amply.
(but I will anyway.)
No crying.
No getting in touch with your feminine side.
The man's job (geek or otherwise) is the three F's.
Fixing
Freighting
Frickin
The man makes the complex political decisions about whether or not the nation should deploy cruise missiles, bomb anything from orbit, or bail out the banks.
The woman gets to decide what you spend the money on, where you live, how many children to have, where they will be educated, where to go on holiday and anything else not included in the previous sentence.
The hard part:
When the woman makes a remark about something that upsets her you must always resist the temptation to offer a solution. Sympathise.
But most important of all
Be excellent to each other.
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
Small lies, it's what holds relationships together.
Depends. Is it by Arthur Dent?
If you two don't fit the traditional gender stereotypes, try reading books for gay/lesbian couples.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I suggest some NLP training[...]
What's NLP?
"but in reality a woman with a penis isn't any more attractive to women than it is to men"
You should visit bangkok sometime! :o)
Neural Linguistic Programming.
Meta will eat itself
For my wedding I wrote my own wedding march song with a MOD tracker which composes free open source music. Nobody cared but me, but it was a big deal for me.
I married my favorite geek 19 years ago, and here are a few of the things I've learned:
Be considerate.
Shut up and listen when she wants to talk.
Respect her opinion.
She's smarter than you are, get over it.
It's more important to be friends than lovers (sex is fun, but no foundation for a marriage).
Give her the remote before you fall asleep.
If she prefers Windows (or a Mac or a different Linux distro), let it go.
Very few things are important enough to argue with your spouse about.
Money is the biggest marital stressor, to avoid this, live well within your means.
Settle disagreements quickly.
Even geeky girls like tasteful jewelry.
Make time to take her out on a date at least once a week.
Don't be an insensitive clod.
This isn't the sig you're looking for... Move along.
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
Excellent post. One point I would like to add is - Don't let your ego rule you especially when you are with her. Moreover, when she is angry simply listen to her, accept all accusations without fighting back, as fighting back wont help at all. This seems to work quite well for me. Watch the movie "Revolver" by Guy Ritchie. This movie will teach you everything you need to know about how to control your ego.
...trying to understand the other one and talk about stuff, without getting mad...
That is great advice. Also, learning what it is that you can do to show her you love her is important. Note that what you THINK shows her, may not actually be the magic thing(s) she expects. The great part is, at least in my experience, 90% of the women out there won't tell you what these things are; they expect you to somehow just now what they are, because dammit if you really LOVED her you would just know. Asking might work, but usually be the time you ask you are already screwed.
Next up: random subtle hints she drops about things she likes (great for gift giving at various times of the year) that men have absolutely no clue about.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
(those damn freaking clothing stores argh)
Fashion show! As long as I go to clothing stores with pretty girls who come out of the damn booth to show me what they look like, I enjoy it.
The traditional way to do this is to get bored out of your skull while the girl stays in the booth. No fun. Ask, nay, tell her to show you what she tries on so you can interact, and you'll enjoy it too.
You can't take the sky from me...
The secret is sooo simple ... love , communication, and common life goals. You don't need a manual - and if you think you do - then there is already a problem!
My wife and I recently celebrated our 12th wedding anniversary (July 20th - anniversary of the first moon landing :-D ). She's a math and space geek and I'm a computer, ham radio and space geek. We did no special planning, read no manuals, just did it.
Sometimes you have to stop over-analyzing things and just do them!
No matter where you go... there you are.
The traditional way to do this is to get bored out of your skull while the girl stays in the booth. No fun. Ask, nay, tell her to show you what she tries on so you can interact, and you'll enjoy it too.
Yeah, I do this and go with her to the booth aswell (which admittedly felt a bit weird at the first times specially if someone looked what they're doing, but ohwell). High heels and shoes and such is hard to comment, other clothing easier tho. But seeing some boobies in the booth helps make the time more enjoyable :)
NLP?? I certainly disagree.
I had this stuff inflicted on me during a management course recently. Being the nerdy little science geek I am I went out to investigate it and discovered the same thing that you will discover if you go out and spend some serious time looking through its underlying claims - that is, that it's mostly pulled directly out of someone's plump rectum. I didn't just take my own word for it - I went to the psychology dept at my local university and checked my findings with senior research staff.
That's not to say that learning to listen isn't incredibly important to keeping a marriage going, and it probably is true that approaching that via NLP, bullshit as the specifics are, is still better than not bothering to get the skillset at all. However, it would probably be more healthy to avoid the obfuscatory layer of mumbo-jumbo. NLP selling organisations can be virtually cult-like, and the 'science' has been recognised as more or less valueless since about the 80s.
Posting anonymously because I have a day-job.
I think the easiest way to make friction is, if just-works thinks aren't working:
Very, very good advice.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the last paragraph, provided the first paragraph is properly observed: if you have a history of open honesty (and mutual respect) then there are no hard barriers on behaviour in public - you will both know intuitively what is unacceptable/hurtful/undermining behaviour. Saying that, it's vital to have that well-established foundation of trust and respect before relaxing the rules.
I would add one important piece of advice though: Remember That You Will Both Screw Up. In any close relationship, you will inevitably end up hurting one another from time to time; sometimes in everyday little ways, sometimes in almighty one-off fuck-ups. Patience and forgiveness from both parties are the only medicine for such ills, and when applied liberally and sincerely, the relationship will often be stronger after the fuck-up than before.
Meta will eat itself
Obviously how you approach it depends on the country you live in and the rules, laws and expectations that come from the culture and families you are both marrying into.
The problem with geeky types is that they ofter think there are/should-be rules or tried and tested techniques for doing things. When dealing with other people (apart from the obivousl ones to do with respect and consideration - both ways) there aren't.
For a start, what are your plans for having children? - have you discussed it. How much are your / her family going to be involved? Who's going to give up or continue working? What will you / she do if the partner has an affair - are either of you the jealous type. Don't forget, that people change after marriage (though some, who should: don't). Is the motivation to be married, or to be with the other person (if the latter, why marry at all?). Maybe when you have both sat down and had a full and frank discussion about these, and other topics you will be ready to decide whether ot not to marry.
Finally, remember that when women say "commitment", it frequently means "sacrifice". What are you prepared to give up?
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
You should have some things you both enjoy together, and some things that are just "your thing."
But actually the biggest problems early on arise not from power issues (you are reading the wrong books), but from money issues and in-laws. Be sure you both have the same attitudes about spending and saving.
I piss off bigots.
At my grandparents' 65th wedding anniversary, my grandfather was asked for the secret to his long marriage. He said, "In any domestic dispute, if it turns out you are right, apologize at once."
I suggest some NLP training
And while you're at it, an astrology course. Knowing someone's zodiac sign really helps in understanding them. /sarcasm
Then "NLP training" must be Neural Linguistic Programming training?
Dude. You're doomed.
If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
Everyone's going to have their own bit of advice, and you have to take it all in aggregate and boil it down. Here are my additions to the pot:
1. The most useful thing in all those self-help books, especially for geeks, is the chapters on communication, and specifically active listening. Not only is this useful in marriage but in the workforce too. I suggest the habit called "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" from David Covey's "The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People".
2. The biggest arguments any couple has will be about money, eventually. Even though you make more money as life goes on, life will cost more, so you'll have more disposable income at the beginning. This is a recipe for an explosion a few years in when you have to reign each others' spending in. Fingers get pointed, etc. Learn to track your finances together. Also, each person should have a set amount of money per week to allocate *as they wish* and the other partner can make no comments on its use. As long as everything fits in the budget, no complaints.
3. The biggest realization for me was that if something is bothering you, then *you* have to take action to fix it, or learn to ignore it. For instance, some people complain about stupid things like their partner leaving the toothpaste cap off. You can't change the other person. That bears repeating: YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON. Either invent a toothpaste tube with a cap that closes itself, or get his and hers tubes, or just forget about it. Same thing goes with cleaning the house. Typically the female is the one complaining that the male doesn't care about {dirty floors, windows, whatever} and she thinks she can change him if she just keeps nagging him. This is a myth that it's always the female though - it can go the other way. Either way, nagging doesn't work, so you just have to take action and do it. Once *both* people realize that, things go a lot smoother. My saying for this is, "expect little, appreciate much".
Good luck!
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
I suspect that 90% of what you want to figure out has nothing to do with your geek aspects. Having a good marriage take a lot of effort either way.
I've gotten a lot out of these two books:
What Wives Wish their Husbands Knew about Woman
The Five Love Languages (best if both of you read this one).
Also, a few random tips:
1) As a geek, you might enjoy Robert Heinlein's suggestions in Time Enough for Love ("the Notebooks of Lazarus Long") for their practicality (plus, he trained as an engineer). Things like "budget the luxuries first"; "rub her feet".
2) Some years ago, I was at a conference with my wife -- we had just recently married, and we thought one session looked particularly interesting. It was called "Making long term relationships work" or something similar. The course began with the leader asking who in the room was in a long term relationship. Nearly every hand went up. He then asked us to go round the room and each say who we were and how long we'd been in our relationship. We were par for the course in saying we'd been together for five years and had just got married. The final person in the room answered by saying she wasn't sure if she could really claim to be in a long-term relationship... her husband had died last year after 54 years of marriage. At which point, the course leader turned to the rest of us and said "*That* is a long-term relationship. *That* is the timescale on which you should be looking to make things work. It requires a completely different perspective from how you would normally tend to think about things. How will you survive tragedy? How will you be a parent to your thirty-year old child? What will tie you together with your partner on a permanent basis, no matter the insults flung at it?" It goes beyond learning how to get along, or manage money, or put the lid on the toothpaste -- it's about finding a way to get to 80 together. It's tough, but one of the most worthwhile things you could ever do. Good luck!
Consult experts, those who have been married several times. You know how repetition sets the learning experience.
Oh Yeah. Have lots of sex. And explore sexual frontiers together. It is not what you do today. It is about what you look forward to tomorrow.
There's a good book by comedian Ian Coburn called "God is a Woman". It's more about dating (it's kind of like the "PUA" stuff, for people who aren't assholes), but there's one good bit of advice in there relating to marriage, which Coburn got from talking to other comedians who were married (he says you get to know people pretty well on the road).
The advice was: before you get married, make sure you've talked about 3 things: money, sex and kids.
Money is probably fairly obvious, as is sex (according to the book, a lot of woman intend to change things in the bedroom once they're married). Talking about kids is not just talking about whether you'll have them, and how many, but how you'll raise them. These all kind of seem like obvious (and important) things to discuss, but you can bet a lot of people never bring them up.
I agree with most of what's been posted. You seem to already have a leg up on "non-geeks" by being who you are. I learned the following two things after I turned 30. (1) "Validate her:" basically in the middle of an argument, paraphrase back to her what you think she is saying (not what you think of what she is saying). This has an awesome disarming effect on her, and it will give you her perspective. (2) Pick your battles. There are some arguments that you will never win. It's not always about who makes more sense.
And, specifically don't do the following costly mistakes:
1- Don't cite statistics about divorce or break up rate, no matter how useful or reasonable such a citation might seem TO YOU. Two months into my relationship with my current fiance I told her that the statistical probability of people who have been dating for two months (like us) to end up together on the long run is slim. Nevermind that I was using that statistic as an example why people SHOULDN'T be complacent and that men should not take women for granted. All SHE HEARD was me saying that I don't think that we stand a chance together. This was the first occasion where I realized the awesome power of tips (1) and (2) above.
2- If she flirtingly asks you to say something nice to her, never ever EVER tell her that she is the SECOND prettiest girl you know especially if you really believe that. It turns out that truth does not add force to a compliment (#1 girl was an older married chick that was realistically never in my reach). As a guy, I'd be very happy if a girl - especially the one I'm asking to marry me - would say that to me. Being number two after an unattainable guy like Brad Pitt type is pretty good to me. Well, no... they don't see it that way.
It's too bad there is no single replacement for Slashdot. This place is toast.
If you miss the old Slashdot so much and there's no replacements for it, why don't you make your own? Seems like a good way to make money doing something you like.
...
Otherwise, stop bitching, because the point of reading tech blogs like Slashdot is to see how things are changing because of technology. If you don't like that everything under us is changing with technology, then why are you reading Slashdot and not an old book that will never change?
Just my opinion
The traditional way to do this is to get bored out of your skull while the girl stays in the booth. No fun. Ask, nay, tell her to show you what she tries on so you can interact, and you'll enjoy it too.
Yeah, I do this and go with her to the booth aswell (which admittedly felt a bit weird at the first times specially if someone looked what they're doing, but ohwell). High heels and shoes and such is hard to comment, other clothing easier tho. But seeing some boobies in the booth helps make the time more enjoyable :)
Weeeell, I meant staying outside the booth and have her come out when she's decent, but your way is fun too, though against store policy :)
For the shoes: Comments on how it shapes her leg and affects her posture are considered constructive.
You can't take the sky from me...
Ahh, this reminds me of George's marriage counselling days. The dude really saved our relationship. Nothing keeps a wife satisfied like shock and awe in the bedroom.
There are certain things that are okay to hide, some things that aren't. An example I heard in my Marriage & Family class of the former was during a honeymoon between a man that almost married someone else and a woman that really didn't almost marry anyone else. She snuggled up to him on the beach and asked what he was thinking about, and he answered that he was thinking about what his life would've been like had he married the other woman. Things got cool for a few days that week. A better answer? "I am so glad I married you," the conclusion of his thought. Not a lie, but also a better answer.
I think honesty about little things is incredibly important. Dishonesty about little things ("How have you been?" "What've you been up to?") is cancerous.
What's this? Another weblog? On transit?
I suggest some NLP training
I have to disagree with this. Non-linear programming is not appropriate for a marriage. If you can't express your needs as a set of linear constraints, then you're not trying hard enough. If you can't use the simplex algorithm to resolve resource allocation conflicts, then you're not ready to get married.
----------
I am an expert in electricity. My father held the chair of applied electricity at the state prision.
Forget the books. Concentrate on being best friends. All of the advice about "communication" and "compatibility" and "caring" will fall right in line ... if you're best friends.
It has worked for us for 15 years. :)
Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
But that doesn't make it easier.
The most important lesson I learned was that when male geeks talk, it's to accomplish something, but when my female geek talks, she does not want to accomplish something or have me fix something. She just wants to talk. Just listening without trying to offer solutions is a challenge when you spend your days in task-oriented pursuits...
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Do you have infinite patience?
Just do the things that made you happen when you were dating. Add to that doing things for each other not because you want to, but because it makes them happy. Never take your spouse, or yourself seriously.
And never go to bed angry, unless it's for sweet sweet angry sex.
I've been married for almost 6 years. We still haven't had our first big fight like everyone says we should.
Two simple words:
"Yes, Dear."
I've been happily married 27 years, thanks to those two little words.
Supposedly there was a study run by a bunch of marriage counselors some years back, looking to prove that couples that actively communicate have the happiest marriages. To their dismay, it turned out that the happiest marriages were the ones where the husband did pretty much whatever the wife told him to do. (One has to assume that the wife doesn't overly abuse her position here.) I don't know if the story is true or not, but it certainly matches my experience, and the experience of most of my happily married friends.
Get dibs on the remote...
Use your head, can't you, use your head,
You're on earth, there's no cure for that - S. Beckett
Weeeell, I meant staying outside the booth and have her come out when she's decent, but your way is fun too, though against store policy :)
For the shoes: Comments on how it shapes her leg and affects her posture are considered constructive.
Oh thats a good comment for shoes. Just need to learn to see which ones of them look good - I notice when its absolutely great looking, but anything in between looks quite same heh.
I wonder if that is actually against store policy here, I mean the saleswomen have been walking past when going in the booth and even bringing other clothes to try while I'm in too and commenting etc. Maybe culture differences a bit too.
I have been an Anesthesiologist for 20 years. I have been fascinated when I see 80 year olds who have been married for 50+ years and they still care about each other. Whenever I have a couple like that, who tearfully kiss goodbye before surgery, I ask what the secret is to being married >50 years. The consistant pattern of advice I find is two things: 1) Be easygoing, compromise. 2) Make each other laugh. I don't know how many times I've heard "He makes me laugh" with people who are married >50 years. So do you make her laugh? Does she make you laugh? Is she willing to compromise a little if you want to do something she isn't in to?
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
I've always said marriage is where decisions become discussions. It is two different people trying to share the same life. It takes work. I think as long as both parties accept this, and mutually work at it, the marriage will go fine. I don't believe a book will help.
I'm a BBS orphan in a blogging world.
I married my high school sweetheart (dated through high school, college, got married after we both graduated.) We're both 37 now, still very happy!
We're like you: I graduated with a BA in physics but am now an IT geek, she studied literature then went on to get a Master's in theology.
I didn't realize they had books on marriage. We didn't even consider them. But over the years we realized some important things:
DON'T DO IT
What?
I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
While I agree there can be a time and a place for the honesty. Nothing has improved my sex life with my wife more than being honest when it's boring, bad, or good. It's how you learn what the other person likes. If you're not honest when it's crap, you keep getting the same crap sex over and over. (At least until you get no sex)
Personally, I think that small lies are what slowly tear a relationship apart. They're all the small things that you quietly resent about your partner, and it's there, under the surface, just waiting for a release. So when the bad things happen, all the small lies come to the surface too. Then it's not just one bad argument, it's all the problems that you've been keeping secret all coming out at the same time.
That kind of mindset is likely to annoy the hell out of your wife after a while. Talk to her, ask her what she thinks, tell her when you are feeling a bit confused.
Second. Start listening to her and her signals. Pay attention and try to interpret them, but don't put too much weight on your interpretation until you know what you are doing. Women (and non-geeks) communicate far more with body language than what you might expect, so be prepared for this. This is extremely important, because after a while she WILL expect you to interpret most of her ambiguous communication in the correct way. What she is saying will give you part of what she means, her body language will give you the rest. Understanding her body language will be a signal to her that you care about her enough to pay attention.
Third, don't assume that talking is simply to solve problems or accomplishing something. Your wife will want to talk simply for the joy of talking. Unless you reciprocate and communicate simply for the joy of communicating, you might start drifting apart. And even if she comes to you with a problem, she may only want a bit of sympathy or a friendly ear. You may not be able to solve it, and she doesn't always want you to try.
"What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans. Small lies, it's what holds relationships together" - especially when both sides appreciate the thought that goes into the lies.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Love and Respect.
My wife and I went to a group that discussed successful marriages and the main theme was the difference between men and women. Women love, men respect; so when the woman wants love it can be hard for the man to provide that and vice versa.
It boils down to that when an argument happens the man feels disrectped by the woman's tone or actions and the man reciprocates by being colder and more distant; which further feeds the cycle. One of the example that was given was to take a diet book for example. If the woman gives a man a diet book he doesn't really care, because he doesn't see that as a slight. But that might not be the case if the man gave it to the woman; should could see that as an attack on her appearance, or a rejection of her for who she is right now. But if the woman were to keep pushing the book as opposed to leting the man do what he wanted with it, then that starts to come across as demanding and disrespectful of the man's decisions.
The solution was presented as being the bigger person and realizing whats happening. Saying "I'm sorry. Was what I said unloving/disrepectful?" and then trying to work on those issues. Trying to untie yourself from the cycle and try to discuss it in a calm and loving/respectful way.
The course also talked about the needs of men and women. I found that to be accurate as well. Women need face to face time. If you aren't looking at her, she thinks you aren't paying attention. Men need sholder to sholder time, he may not be talking but he appreciates the company.
The group was a church affiliated group, and the class was based off of http://www.loveandrespect.com/ There are Christian overtones but the basic message was men and women are different, here are ways they are different, and how to handle those differences.
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
Here's the deal. It doesn't matter if you're alpha-male-jock or whatever other type. What matters is how well you accept one another and how you deal with problems together. Most of the time, it is the woman that finds the man intolerable and not the other way around. (Yeah, there are exceptions of course) Usually, it's something that a guy does or doesn't do that leads to things becoming rocky and unstable at home and it's largely the weakness of the woman who quite literally chooses to not accept it as part of who you are. (There are also exceptions to this as well... should she accept sex, drug or gambling addiction? hell no! should she accept gaming addiction? hell no! should she accept failing to pay the bills because you spent money on geek crap? hell no!)
So putting aside serious detrimental behaviors, if she can't accept that you're a slob or a neat freak, then you shouldn't get married. And let's be clear on what the whole idea of marriage means in the first place. Don't consult a religious leader. Consult a divorce lawyer! If anyone knows what a marriage is REALLY all about, it's an experienced divorce attorney who has assisted in disassembling a marriage and all the things connecting the two people together in a tight relationship. You may find that in this day and age, that marriage is completely obsolete! A limited power of attorney, as it turns out, is all anyone needs unless one of you is from a foreign country. (I firmly believe that marriage is a legally binding agreement that can and will be used against you in a court of law.)
I have also found that some of the most serious sources of troubled marriages stem from the misconceptions of what marriage is or what function it serves. You'd both better be on the same page when it comes to the preconceptions about marriage religiously, socially and legally because they will lead to stupid friction moving forward. Personally, I have no religion and neither does my wife. That takes out 1/3rd of that problem from the start. Socially, we are on the same page. Legally, I'm fully aware since I have been divorced before (and came out on top).
Some people need to not be married at all. Both of you need to do some hard personality analyses on the matter. How do you balance "self vs relationship"? How do you balance "self vs family"? How do you balance "self vs child/ren"? If you favor yourself too much and are mature enough to admit it to yourself, then you probably shouldn't get married at all.
People too often think of marriage in terms of 30 minute situation comedies or two hour romantic comedies. They also too often think of it as a religious and/or social mandate. Get those misconceptions cleared up before you sign those legal documents. I'd say "read the fine print" but there is no fine print!!! Marriage is a bizarre legal construct that is not defined in any one single law anywhere. It's all over the place and frankly most written law is about divorcing if that tells you anything at all.
And even if you have all of the above completely covered, be prepared for changes that occur down the road. Dynamics and roles shift and change... sometimes abruptly and sometimes so gradually, you don't notice. Be flexible and know your limits so that you don't break when things go too far.
I'll tell you what works for me -- I'm ridiculously easy to get along with. I know myself well and have little trouble explaining myself to others while at the same time, I am very accepting of others. It also helps that it is accepted by my wife that I TRULY suck at remembering dates and what day it is. Having forgotten my own birthday on several occasions was all the proof she needed that I am an honestly a forgetful person when it comes to things like that. (And it's not like my birthday would be hard to remember. It's the first of a month! I'm just not that guy.)
Oh yeah, and don't make "the marriage" the thing... not EVER. If "the marriage" was the thing, then you're both chasing something that doesn'
This doesn't necessarily be heeded to as an advice, as every marriage is different and self-help is the best help! This instead can be read as FYI so that you be informed! Good Luck! here you go! You might have lived a world of your own until now, without thinking of anything else other than your avocations. That will get a sea-change when you get married. You will have the need to recognize the other person in every literal sense. * Time is the # 1 himalayan factor in making your marriage work. Ensure you can spend as much time as possible in your early stages so that both get the confidence. Coming out of your current routines will be a big ask, which one will have to manage. * Trust is the # 2 factor that makes your marriage work. Build trust and be trust-able. This goes a long way in making things smoother
Nononononononono.
Natural Language Processing is the cornerstone of any relationship.
But can the guy who suggested Neuro Linguistic Programming recommend some introductory books on the subject? I'd rather not spend $$$ on a Bandler seminar only to find out that it is bunk. (I'm guessing that NLP is Ericksonian hypnosis + overblown hype, but that some of it might prove useful.)
My experience tells me otherwise. You normally both end up going to bed feeling really shitty, and things get left unsaid. You have a bad night sleep, because you're worried, and wake up the next day feeling crap, thoughts stewing in your head, often blaming the other person. Very often, it's easy to just sweep it under the carpet and things get left unsaid. Overall, things get worse.
Actually, it should be, "Never go to sleep angry." Normally we end up going to bed, and after a few minutes, we're feeling crap, and start discussing rationally.
I'm not saying it's not important to know when to walk away for tempers to cool (that's definitely good advice) but leaving things hanging in the air for any length of time, even for sleep, is not good.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
I've been married for 25 years now. Repeat the following until you can say them with utmost sincerity.
* I'm sorry.
* It's all my fault.
* You're right dear.
* I love you.
Remember: You're happy when she's happy. So, make her happy. And don't ever forget her birthday. That's why God invented PDAs.
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
Add to this:
It's worked for me and my wife for almost 30 years now.
Good luck!
So when you are reading a book and it doesn't apply to you because it says something like "lack of attention due to sports", keep in mind the root of the problem is "lack of attention", it could be due to sports, or due to raiding the new lvl 80 heroic content in the 3.2 patch, or spending every night trying to get that last ham station of the Islands on the Air award. You are a geek, she is a geek, but you are still both human, and relationships all work pretty much the same thing, and suffer from the same things just some more than others. Finally, this is a relationship, not a new car, instead of reading the books and using your heads, just talk with each other and use your hearts.
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
Mod parent up. As a married man myself, I can attest that trying to keep the "don't go to bed angry" myth as a practice can serve to make small, petty disagreements into large scale fights due to the lack of sleep. This gets compounded even further when/if kids are involved and your sleep becomes even more precious.
I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
While I agree there can be a time and a place for the honesty. Nothing has improved my sex life with my wife more than being honest when it's boring, bad, or good. It's how you learn what the other person likes. If you're not honest when it's crap, you keep getting the same crap sex over and over. (At least until you get no sex)
I concur, but I sure don't like such a slap in the face as having an orgasm and then hearing "You know honey, that really sucked. I hope you do better next time"
I don't forget to say those three special words: "I am sorry." I'm amazed at how many people in this world have trouble saying they are sorry even when they know they are clearly wrong. (This applies in all relationships, not just marriage.)
Based on nothing, eh? Interesting. It does, indeed, work for me, so I gather "personal experience" is not the sort of experience you're looking for.
Well, all I can say is that every single married couple I know (I know quite a few) has said to me that their number one rule for success has been communication. Every single couple I know who has gotten divorced (including my own mother and father) has told me that lack of communication was a big issue in their break up.
Hey, not terribly scientific, sure, but let's just say that in the 9+ years of our relationship together, not once have we ever felt that it's been in danger.
As for "Yes, dear." It's not about grovelling. It's not about being a door-mat. It's not about actually saying, "Yes, dear." It's about compromise, and accepting that there are other things that the other person wants, or believes, no matter how irrational, stupid or obvious it is to you. Oh, and it does actually work both ways, not just a man agreeing with a woman.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
person a: I feel/believe that (insert simple one topic statement here)
person b: So you feel that (repeat statement as you understand it), is that correct?
person a: Yes/no ( if no, repeat/rephrase statement)
Person b: OK I understand, is there anything else?
repeat with both parties until the issue(s) are all stated. THEN work on resolution. It sounds stupid, but it works. This stuff is covered in any pre-cana course if one is going to be married in a church.
I suggest some NLP training
I have to disagree with this. Non-linear programming is not appropriate for a marriage. If you can't express your needs as a set of linear constraints, then you're not trying hard enough. If you can't use the simplex algorithm to resolve resource allocation conflicts, then you're not ready to get married.
Personally, I often find that Monte-Carlo methods provide a number of advantages.
Pirate Party UK
Learn to say, "Yes, dear."
Don't overuse the "Yes, dear." It's very useful in many cases, but she will notice the pattern if you use it too often, even if you try to obfuscate it.
At your job, when you disagree with others, you might actually be right a large percentage of the time, based on your geeky knowledge of the area.
In marriage, if you marry someone as smart as you (and you should), when you disagree, you'll find you're only right 50% of the time.
Get used to it.
This isn't a hard and fast rule. Just a general guideline.
For a man dating a woman:
If she starts complaining about work/school/friends/family. She is not looking for a solution, but empathy. Don't try and fix the problems, just understand how they make her feel.
For a woman dating a man:
If a man starts complaining about work/school/friends/family then don't try and empathise, he's looking for solutions to problems.
Respect each other and you'll do fine! Have a grand time!
Wherever you go, there you are.
Watch the episode "My Big Fat Geek Wedding"
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Mrs. Caudle's Curtain Lectures by Douglas William Jerrold
Douglas William Jerrold was the son of an actor manager. After some time in the Navy and as an apprentice printer he became a playwright and later a journalist. He was a contemporary and friend of Charles Dickens. As a journalist he worked for Punch magazine in which Mrs Caudle's Curtain Lectures were serialised, to be published in book form in 1846.
Job Caudle, the 'hero' of the book is a Victorian shopkeeper whose wife finds she can only talk to him without interruption in bed. Caudle, who outlives his wife, finds he can no longer sleep easily because of his memory of these 'lectures' and resolves to exorcise his wife's memory by recording the lectures, it seems with a view to future publication for the edification of others. Jerrold's humour shines through this insight into Victorian middle class culture.
http://www.audiopod.ca/audiopod/servlet/AudioPod?ra=RA10&P_5=869
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
All good pointers. I'd also point out as a more specific to communication, is to let her share her interests. Ideally both of you will get to. I know my wife and I had some rocky starts where she would shut me down when I was trying to talk economics or physics and I would do the same to her when she started trying to talk about the latest romance novel she read. (I don't know why she likes them. She's such an otherwise intelligent person.) Once we talked about it though we both realized that if we were just a touch more tolerant and let the other get our rambling in about our subjects, we were happier. Great tip for this: While she's talking about that thing you don't care enough about, split your attention. Listen to what she's saying so you can respond appropriately, and then start listing the things you love about her in your head. Later you can use this list to do something romantic for her. I know my wife loves hearing these lists of why I love her. Also, it helps when you get those random questions where she asks, "Sweetie, Why do you love me?" from out of nowhere to have already composed a list. Note: When naming things on this list try and do so only a few at a time, if she hears the whole list at once she might start thinking about what wasn't on it.
And that book should be "Why Marriages Succeed or Fail" by John Gottman. Its not a geek book, but it was written by a psychologist who has studied marriage and married couples for over 20 years. My wife and I read it and our marriage is stronger for it. I wholly recommend it.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
* this can be either the best or the worst thing you'll do in your lifetime. THINK ABOUT IT CAREFULLY. If there are troubling bits then don't.
* don't assume that because you're married you can stop being nice 'because you've caught her'. She can divorce you, or worse.
* common law marriage. community property. alimony. Look up the laws in your state.
* learn what she likes and do it. don't try to make her like what you do.
* goto amazon.com and get a copy of this book. It explains the expectational differences between the sexes. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Dont-Enough-Women-Love/dp/0671689789/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249474597&sr=8-1
* figure out how you're going to raise the kids. If you're strict and she's permissive and neither of you will give in then you're headed toward disaster.
* treat her as well as you'd like to be treated. Most people will respond with love if you love them, even if you do it badly.
Good luck!
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
The trick is to continue to work at being in love. Don't take each other for granted, respect each other's opinions, and do small things for each other every day that say "I love you" in both words and deeds. I hope you both have a wonderful future!
Remember to 'sudo'
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
Watch Battlestar Galactica together instead American Idol. Socializing at Mensa and the Sci Fi club instead of church. Take a weekend trip to the Native American petroglyphs site instead of going to the Indian casino. Fly to a whale-watching cruise instead of a trip to Vegas.
Same but different. Doing "stuff" together. I suspect considerably more "alone time" must be allocated for reading in particular but, otherwise, the underlying relationship dynamics are the same.
Spoken like a true singleton! :P
Definitely learn to say 'yes dear'. You don't always have to give in to her will, but letting go of your ego and doing things her way some of the time is only fair - after all, she'll be doing the same for you. It's called compromise and shows you value your other half's opinion. If they value your opinion they'll not expect you always to go along with them, but if you never do you'll end up without a spouse, as many chauvinists tend to find themselves.
May be he is trying to show off to her about how adventurous he is by asking on slashdot about marriage.
With all of our electronic communication these days, I wonder if we've lost the ability to just talk to each other, face to face and with real emotion, not some goofy emoticon.
First thing - get rid of the books about marriage. Most are useless, authored by people who have had real problems and think they can now solve the world's problems. Spend a lot of time with each other and talk - honestly and openly. Your lady may be a literary geek, but she's still a woman, and women respond to verbal communication far better than us knuckle-draggin' males.
It may seem uncomfortable to be that open, but if both of you practice this, you'll not only gain a good marriage partner, you have a new best friend.
== First cross river, then insult alligator.
I would like to amplify on this post. There are some time when there is no middle ground, no compromise. Just suck it up and don't keep score because it all works out. For example, my wife really wanted to see "Chocolat" I decided to grin and bear it, but next week we watched "We Were Soldiers" That is a small example, but there will be bigger issues. I wish you two a long and happy marriage.
agreed.
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
i heard a comedian say it, on tv.
my wife hits me when i say it.
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
Driving Like a Geek, The Geek Guide to Not Sucking In Bed, A Geek and His/Her Dog, The Geek's Kitchen Friend, The Geek's Guide to Overcoming Superficial Label Addiction
I dunno if you're a geek or not when you can't figure out how to switch "(neglect due to interest in sports, etc.)" to "(neglect due to interest in Linux/gaming, etc.") Sorry to break your "Geek" heart but you don't need special books because you're a geek.
I hope your marriage works out. Really, I do. I've just had my fill of people that need "Tags" and live their lives around them.
1. Throw out and stop reading the stupid marriage/relationship guides. That alone will put you miles ahead.
2. Instead, pick up a solid conflict resolution book.
The greatest single piece of knowledge I ever learned was in a conflict resolution class in college. It is the Three Argument Rule (I named it that), if you have the exact same argument with resolution three times or more over any period of time, then the argument is NOT actually about what you are arguing about and you need to stop and dig deeper into it. Most relationships (business, love, family, etc.) will have these ongoing arguments that will chip away and wear on things. People continue to fight them out time and time again just to have them rear their ugly heads later. The real argument is ALWAYS something else but coming out as this familiar argument. Both parties knowing this and stopping to figure it out finally and being honest with the REAL issue instantly ends them completely, but they can be difficult or deep-seeded issues so it requires effort. It will change your life though, not just in love but in every aspect.
You're welcome.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
Marriage is something that will have to grow between you two. You two have to figure out what feels right and what doesn't.
This is not something that can be read from a book. So stop trying to find wisdom in books and enjoy!
Don't worry, it's all just 1's and 0's anyway...
it is a sure recipe for disaster.
be honest
you need to be able to talk with your girlfriend/wife on nearly all matters
you need to be able to laugh together, and to laugh about each other
As for fun parties before marriage, that is all up to the comfort level of the people. Such as my wife and I could go to the strip club together man or woman. We are both 100% sure that neither of us want anyone else. Other people aren't that sure, or even comfortable with a naked body, especially in the US.
Mbr> But as far as a great marriage, communication open and honest and all the time. Hold nothing back, and hold no ill feelings when you hear something you didn't want to. Love each other more than you did the day before. as has been said, you are a team and should function like a single unit made up of two parts. Alone time, that is important to everyone. You need your time alone and so does she.
We have a rule not to let the sun go down on an unresolved issue. If it's not worth fixing right then and there, it wasn't worth arguing over in the first place. And if you have an argument, ending it happy. Our last argument ended in a prime rib dinner in a candle lit dining room and the argument was about communication not being as open as it should have been. So, we opened the doors over dinner and had a wonderful night.
Have fun. We play video games, go to museums, watch movies, ride our motorbikes or just relax together. But we have fun together.
Gifts are not only for special occasions. If you see something that you know would make your wife glow, get it. My wife loves See's candy, so out of nowhere I got her a 4lbs box and she loved it. Or a movie she's wanted for a long time. Perhaps a great book that's been on her list for far too long. You don't need a reason to show your wife you love her.
Sex, everyone has different levels and understanding the needs of the other is important. She can't keep up with me so she lets me have my porn collection, and I don't smother her with my man bits. When she's ready, it's business time. When she's not, it's porn time.
My geek wife is strong and has no filter. She'll say it like it is. I have a filter but still tell her how it is. So, be yourself, don't try and change the other person. After all you didn't want to marry the changed person, you wanted to marry the person she is today, and the same for you, don't change. If either one says I love everything about her but this, now if I can change that, they'd be perfect. Wrong. Either you love them for who they are, or you don't.
Be supportive. My wife is pregnant with our first and I didn't realize how much she has done around the house since I've gone back to school. The dishes, laundry, cleaning the house. When she's not feeling well or can't handle the smells of the kitchen, I take up with no ill feelings. I'm there to support her through this great time in our lives. When she can't lift the laundry basket, I carry it for her. When she's sick and feeling down, I'll rub her feet and make her feel better. It comes down to love. If you love her like you should, those things wont be a problem.
I also think every geek is smart enough to know how to handle the situation at hand. You know what you want, and if you're both open you know what the other wants and can make a great marriage from it.
My $0.02
Ben
Furthermore, the only standards you should be judging your relationship by are:
1. Is she happy with it and fulfilled by it?
2. Are you happy with it and fulfilled by it?
3. If you have kids, are they getting the care and attention they need?
Everything other than that is simply noise. Don't try to hold your relationship to anything your parents tell you, your friends tell you, and especially what some author who doesn't know either of you told you.
Also, when were these books written? They sound like manuals for marriages back in 1947 or so. Thanks to beatniks, boomers, hippies, and feminists, we've moved away from the "husband is dominant and pays the bills, wife is submissive and cleans the house" mentality. And I'm sure Betty Friedan in particular would have been happy to explain to you exactly why this is an improvement for everybody.
I am officially gone from
The answer to this is really simple: Never stop dating. Don't stop doing the things that made her fall for you, don't take her for granted, don't get complacent. As long as she does the same, you're golden.
You're entering a marriage, not a "geek" marriage. You might classify yourself as geeks, but you're still human beings with emotions, and share more in common with that alpha male and submissive wife than you realize. There are times when your wife will think you are ignoring her in favor of your interests. There will times when you will discover incompatibilities. All of these times will require open and respectful communication and most importantly, compromise.
Your marriage will work, so long as both of you remember this one, simple fact:
Your spouse's happiness is more important than your own.
If you both work hard to make the other happy, then both of you will have a wonderful marriage. Seriously--it is that simple. It doesn't matter if you are a jock, or not; or if she is a submissive cheerleader, or not. What matters is that you are happy. Period.
Good luck in the future with your marriage!
$> man woman $> Segmentation fault. (Core dumped)
It's been challenging for us, but definitely worthwhile. We've jumped on anything that can be mutually enjoyed, but we also give each other space for the things one enjoys that the other does not. I take one night off a week and disappear into the local coffee shop to do 'deep geekery' (i.e. programming for fun), which helps a lot. Also, being correct in an argument does not necessarily create a win-win situation; sometimes it's a lose:lose. Learning what really needs to be communicated is one of the eternal learning curves, but over time you begin to realize when your spouse wants a breakdown of topic x and when the topic is simply the foil for a deeper issue that needs to be communicated. Depending on what you two are like, 100% may not always be possible. Get as close to that line as possible (hint: if you're comfortable, it's probably not honest enough), but there are some things (history of ex's, for example; knowing that you've known other women and have moved on is often enough, unless there is a compelling, specific reason to go into the lurid details of the past) that usually aren't necessary and weaken the bridges you're building. Don't get too caught up in roles. I never drive the car, and we alternate with child-care when I'm home. We have always made decision making (esp. big decisions) require a unanimous vote. No coercion, no unilateral votes; it requires one to learn to communicate right away, and if a decision can't be settled on we try and find a third option or simply drop it. hope that helps
6) Let her do things her way, even if suboptimal. When I heat a can of soup, I pour the can into the soup bowl and microwave for a few minutes. My wife insists on heating the soup in a saucepan, then ladling it into a bowl, thereby using more energy to cook and clean (and serve less soup). I've tried explaining the physics involved but it doesn't take. Live with it.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it."
- H. L. Mencken
100% correct, would definitely mod you up if I could.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
s/sport/Wow/g
s/beauty salon/library/g
etc...
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
Congrats!
If you want to build a solid foundation with this wonderful person, one way to do it would be by acknowledging that she's a woman, not a "girl". (Unless she's 12, that is.)
Using "girl" instead of "woman" is extremely common but there's a world of difference between the two. Why not use the right word?
Good luck
Start by going to a few marriage councilors. I'm serious. Good marriage counseling is cheaper than a divorce by an order of magnitude and infinitely more helpful. Quite simply, it's a bargain. We went to two difference councilors. One taught us skills and the other ran us through a battery of tests, and then reviewed our weaknesses. Both were informative.
I am a married geek and my sister was married to a geek. Being a geek or a jock or a car salesman are all orthogonal to a challenging marriage. All marriages are challenging to all types of people. You say "spousal sports neglect" has no bearing on your situation, but sports neglect is no different from "lan party neglect." We all do things that segregate us from our spouses in some way because we are different people. A key (there are many keys to making it work) is finding a way to relate to each other across those differences.
Lan party neglect (along with losing job-itis) were contributors to my sister's marriage dissolving. They could never broach that gap in their personalities as he just came to expect her support and understanding for parties lasting till 4:00 AM and pizza boxes and soda cans everywhere the next day. She felt neglected and taken advantage of.
I am not a crafty person, but my wife likes making soaps, etching glassware and such. We went to AFO this past weekend and I opened her eyes to an entirely new realm of crafting. Can she, as an artisan of a certain fashion, replicate trinkets and props from anime? Suddenly one of our differences became another point of connection.
There is no silver bullet to making a marriage work, but there is something that is close. You must manage your marriage expectations. Marriage is not some magical thing that will transform your relationship. All the good and all the bad that existed in your relationship before are still there after getting married. The mind tarnishes the good by thinking a wedding will make the good into spectacular. The mind burnishes the bad by thinking a wedding will make the bad vanish. The tragedy, only the perception of the good and bad in the relationship has changed and a great relationship suddenly seems lackluster in the face of marriage. (Women who have a fairytale view are more susceptible to this than others.) If your relationship is strong enough to get married (and survive the wedding "festivities") it will be as strong afterward, but not magically stronger. Both of you must realize that a wedding will not change the other person.
My wife and I got married at a courthouse. We did not fly to Vegas, we did not have 500 hundred guests and we did not honeymoon in the Mediterranean. I told my wife we could have a wedding or we could have a housewarming party. $30k will buy you a nice wedding, but it also goes a long way towards a prime mortgage down payment or pays the lease on an apartment for a few months. We both want a house, but we will have our wedding at the house warming party. We both think that is fairytale enough.
The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
Baked beans always taste better when heated in a saucepan.
Squirrel!
If you're not already... (it helped us)
50 things she thinks:
1. Saying "I love you" immediately before, during, or following sex doesn't count.
2. Real men drive stick shift.
3. I will leave if you lie.
4. You are cute in raglan-sleeved T-shirts (two-toned baseball undershirts).
5. I'm convinced I'm pregnant and obsess about it for a minimum of 24 to 48 hours before my period, even when I have no rational reason to think so.
6.I love it when you hug me from behind and whisper in my ear.
7. "Fine" is never an appropriate response when I ask you how I look.
8. Most of the time when I fantasize, it's about you.
9. I'm terrified of becoming my mother, even though I admire her.
10. I get turned on simply seeing that I have an e-mail from you.
11. I expect you to call me.
12. Only rock stars are allowed to wear leather pants.
13. I'm scared of losing my independence.
14. I'm more forgiving of you than I really should be.
15. Oral sex is your get-out-of-the-doghouse-free card. Manolo Blahnik shoes also do the trick.
16. You did something bad. I seem cool with it. I'm not. (See directly above.)
17. If I'm not having sex with you, I'm: a). having a fat day. b). not feeling "connected" to you. c). blackmailing you to get something I want.
18. Shoes determine whether you're fashionable or not.
19. I own a Debbie Gibson CD, and I'm not afraid to use it.
20. When I compare my flabby tummy to a kangaroo pouch, say nothing.
21. A man I love plans the occasional fancy-schmancy dress-up date and impromptu weekend getaways, and he buys my favorite candy in advance when we're just going to the movies.
22. You look hot in hooded clothing items.
23. You should never tell me what to do.
24. If I slept over, you owe me breakfast.
25. My breasts love much licking and sucking.
26. If you ask me out directly, I will say yes.
27. I'm very impressed when you ask for my advice.
28. I'm unimpressed with a man who doesn't take the lead.
29. When in doubt, go with the shirt that matches your eye color.
30. I want to be Madonna.
31. Women get urinary-tract infections easily, so watch (and wash) your fingers.
32. I'm in heaven when you hold my hand.
33. You're sexy when you're shaving, fixing things, wearing a white T-shirt and jeans, driving, eating a peach, holding a baby.
34. I need to hear how you feel about me. Often. Tell me now.
35. Surprises, especially gifts for moi = more loving.
36. I want to be the best thing that ever happened to you--and for you to recognize this.
37. If I'm not feeling loved, I will start looking....
38. Discussion of ex-gf's and ex-bf's should be avoided at all times.
39. I like it when you tell me what you're thinking, even if you don't know yourself.
40. Celebrating our anniversary, even if it's only been a few months, earns major bonus points.
41. I love it when you're sweaty.
42. It's best to consult your gal pals for gift ideas.
43. A lady should always be greeted with kisses.
44. I like porn.
45. I love holding your bum in the palms of my hands.
46. Even nice girls like hushed dirty talk in public.
47. It's cheating as soon as you're doing something with her that you wouldn't want me to see, hear, read...
48. For the record: I'd rather you break up with me than cheat.
49. I remember everything about our relationship.
50. You should know all this and more with-out my telling you.
I think if geeks approach the frustrations of marriage as any other geek problem, a lot of the anger evaporates in the desire to tinker and tweak, and solve the problem. The dark side of this is that geeks try to solve problems where there are none, and social tinkering and tweaking on a system that's otherwise running smoothly can quickly devolve into "nagging".
I think that's the trickiest part, but one geeks can cope with best: accepting change, and treating the relationship as permanent beta. We are better equipped to deal with problems than non-geeks: it's maintaining the sense of wonder and openness to new stuff that is important.
(And before the wag chime in: no, polyamory is not "being open to new stuff". It's old hat. Nyah. )
Very, very, very important. Final one. You need to educate her. As much as you can. On one very, very important topic. You need to spend time explaining this to her thoroughly so she really understands this. Spinal understanding.
You need to teach her that guys don't get hints. Never. Ever. Not even close. Won't even begin to fathom.
Banal example. You are in your common room, playing some game. She walks into the room and the following conversation (as you see it) takes place:
Her: Your underwear is on the floor
You (looking around and seeing she is right): You are correct, indeed it is (turning to continue game).
In her mind what took place was her going "I told you to clean this room two days ago, remember [she used the same words 'underwear on the floor']? Please get going on this now please, and stop playing your silly game". All girls communicate like this, and none of them have yet to understand (my wife is 30% there) that we simply do not get it. Making an observation is making an observation. There is no automatic directive that follows by an observation. If there is a directive in there somewhere, it must be spelled out clearly and directly. We are simple creatures. What you say is what we hear.
It will take you years to get this across, and you will never completely get there. She will continue to drop hints. When you say "Where do you want to eat" and she replies "I don't mind, we can go anywhere", there is an additional "but you know I hate that waitress at Papa Joe's, and you better remember that I am allergic to that fish stuff, and you know we need to go see Kate and Roger afterwards, so we can't go to the west side of town" etc... Women communicate without words and at least half of what they say has serious hidden meaning. Try to make her stop that. Every day remind her that "men don't get hints". Use the underwear as an example, it is funny. Make a funny story out of it and tell it regularly to your friends when she is there. "We guys don't get hints. If you (pointing at your friends new girlfriend, who hasn't heard this before) walk into a room where he is watching TV, and you say 'your underwear is all over the floor'", he'll raise his head, confirm that you are indeed correct, and continue to watch TV. If you tell him 'get your blasted underwear off my floor', he'll comply instantly". Something like that.
Seriously. I've never understood the difference between living together and marriage from a practical perspective.
Marriage strikes me as a somewhat anachronistic ownership-contract that is rooted in organized religion, so I don't really understand how two self-proclaimed geeks end up choosing the format unless they'd be forced to.
Can someone comment on this earnestly?
While I agree that the rule "Never go to bed angry" is a bad one I wouldn't bet on the problem(s) that caused the anger to evaporate over night.
Communication is the biggest problem. If there is something wrong or that the two partners disagree on then you need to discuss it. It doesn't have to be immediately but the partners do need to set a day and time to discuss it. And when you talk about the issue it's important to only say what you think and feel personally, do not under any circumstances put words in your partners mouth. Whenever one of you finishes a statement the other needs to ensure that you accurately understand what they said by restating it without adding judgement. Sometimes hearing what you've said restated will help you see where you aren't being clear about something.
And when your partner is upset about something do not ever try and laugh it off, laughing about something they consider serious is dismissive of the problem and their concerns. No one appreciates not being taken seriously by their partner. Personally I am too likely myself to laugh about something that upsets my wife. I tend to see humour in most everything and end up laughing about some aspect of the issue before I think about it.
And lastly do not hint at something unless you really really don't care if you get the desired result. Expecting someone else to understand if they really loved you is just plain idiotic. When you hint around at something you are setting your partner up for failure. It'll frustrate you and them when it doesn't work out so just politely ask for what you want and say what you feel and think when it's appropriate to do so, but do not hint.
http://xkcd.com/613/
Someone asking marriage advice on Slashdot (of all places)
As the submitter says, we aren't exactly "normal". I know I'm not. In fact, I don't think there really is any such thing as "normal", unless by "normal" you mean "at the top of the bell curve". Slashdot is exactly the place he should be asking.
Throw the marriage books away, and listen to a divorced geezer; one can learn form mistakes.
First off, the submitter seems to have started off on the right foot, far better than "normal" people. Most folks start out with physical attraction, but your body and face are going to change in time. That supermodel is going to look like my eighty year old mother some day. What's important is that you like each other. Your spouse should be your best friend. There's an old song that starts out "I don't like you, but I love you", and it contains some hidden wisdom - if you're in a relationship like that, someone's going to get their heart broken.
More important than what you love about them is what you hate about them. If each of you can put up with the other's undesirable characteristics, you're in good shape.
Finally, have lots of sex. If you're not horney you're not likely to stray. It's a lot easier to resist the temptation of a filet mignon if you've just had a big mac and large fries than it is if you haven't eaten in two days. I don't know of a single marriage where one or both partners have strayed that didn't end in divorce.
Free Martian Whores!
My wife and i have enjoyed 10 years in almost exactly the kind of marriage you are about to enter and it just keeps getting better. We have two rules.
1) You are a team now. Always back up your teammate. It's you and your partner vs. the rest of the world. Nothing should come between you. Not work, not money, not games, not extended family. It's ok for you to disagree, but when you're dealing with the rest of the world it's important to present a united front. You need to know that your partner is there for you and your partner needs to know the same about you. Of course, part of being a good teammate is not forcing your partner into Kobayashi Maru situations. Conversations, not ultimatums.
2) Life is a battlefield. Marriage is your foxhole. Stay in your foxhole. Another foxhole might look tempting, but there's a pretty good chance you're going to get hit if you leave yours.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Be careful what you wish for on this one though. My lovely geek wife of 12 years didn't play videogames. We led a happy existance (pocketbook wise) by me buying all the latest and greatest, and her getting the hand me down parts making a faster machine for her every once in a while.
Then I got her started on MMO's....
Now everytime *I* get an upgrade, *She* gets the upgrade too.
Ouch.
But it is a blast playing online with her. The one thing we've discovered is she like pretty much the same all the time. She's a dedicated raider on wow. Me, it took me 3 years of off and on play to get my day 1 priest to get to lvl 60. I reup for a month or two every 4-5 months then get bored again and go play something different... Thank goodness there's not many games I have to buy two of right away!
Marriage is something unique to the people involved. There is no amount of reading that will prepare you for dealing with each other's personal quirks and problems. It's an adventure, on par with learning a new raid boss in WoW when you haven't read any strategies. It's just something you have to work out for yourself and do what you are comfortable with. Don't let social expectations force you or keep you from doing what you want.
Other people here have said some good things. Here's one thing to remember: You have chosen to be in a marriage of equals. Make sure you both remember it, and behave accordingly. Make sure you're not finding that one or the other of you is really the boss. In particular areas of expertise you can have someone dominant. In total, you can't.
One more thing: Marriage councilors are evil, deadly, and incompetent. Or rather, there are definitely such ones out there. You won't know what you've got, and they can screw you. Be very careful before entering into such a situation.
Eating your soup cold out of the can is even more efficient. Cooking != physics.
Well first, marriage is nothing more than some legal protections for your relationship and some discounts on insurance/etc... It is basically just like the relationship before except that is is harder and more expensive to leave. In the end a wife/husband is nothing more than a friend who you have sex with. If the sex sucks or you find yourself much more friendly with other woman, then there is a serious problem.
On sexual compatibility, there is a lot. Some people just like you to sink the hole, but other people like other actions. If you don't match there, one partner will either cheat or be very depressed.
On the whole friendship thing. If she likes to read and discuss Geoffrey Chaucer all the time and you like to discuss the tty subsystem of the linux kernel, it's going to be hard to be friends. If you have no middle ground so you enjoy talking to that girl who works next to you at work hacking away new device drivers for her crazy devices more than you enjoy talking to your girlfriend/wife then there is a problem. Presumably the two of you must meet on some middle ground to feel connected...
Neglecting with sports can be anything. If you are working 100 hours a week, then the office is your football. If you are going after extra courses, playing games all night and not spending time with her, pursuing advanced degrees, watching movies, etc. then they are your sports.
The other question is do you live together yet? Married or not stuff changes when you live together. Then all the habits come out. If she likes the house spotless and creates a rule about everything and you are lackadaisical about things that will cause friction. If one of you is OCD and the other isn't then that will cause friction too. For some people even what time to go to bed causes friction. Maybe one is a nigh owl and the other one is a morning lark or however they say. Sometimes a partner gets all crazy when the other doesn't go to bed at the same time. It's little things like that which can add up over time.
And of course there is the obvious stuff. You both want kids, if you aren't the same religion you are tolerant of each other's, you have similar dreams and goals in life for the future, etc... If you don't agree on the big stuff it will end up being a disaster.
[QUOTE]Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the books will work if you try cosplaying the scenario. Just saying...
After reading the wiki, I think it sounds at least as plausible as Scientology. Which is to say, not at all.
Murder-suicide.
The problem is, the "Yes, dear" strategy is most often used as the path of least resistance. In other words, it is used to short circuit true communication and end a discussion with the least trouble possible. This produces a semblance of peace, but there are long term consequences to someone thinking they are right when they are not, and thinking your spouse is not giving you honest feedback, not to mention damage done in other relationships when your spouse supports you in being irrational or stupid. How does that engender respect? A better solution is to keep talking until you come to a consensus. Much more difficult and much more contentious short term, but long term much less so. You do intend on being married a long time, right?
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i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate
You sound like a very sad man.
I gotta agree with your wife. For me, it has nothing to do with efficiency, but with texture and taste. Things taste better when reheated on the stove or oven, and taste differently to some degree when reheated or cooked in the microwave.
The core of your marriage is the same regardless of whether you're a geek, jock, cheerleader, doctor, unemployed, or whatever. Every person has some core emotional needs; if you meet at least the top three to five of these consistently over the years, you'll be happily married for many years to come. If you don't fill them, someone else will. And it's left to chance whether that person has your marriage's interests at heart or not.
Recommended reading: Anything by Dr. Willard Harley. The keys to affair-proofing your marriage are also the keys to having a happy marriage. Identify your spouse's key emotional needs, fill them consistently, and you're on your way to living a long and happy life together.
It's possible that you may have needs that don't fit into the standard template (Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, Recreational Companionship, Honesty & Openness, Physical Attractiveness, Financial Support, Domestic Support, Family Commitment, Admiration). If you do, identify what those are. Dr. Harley publishes an "Emotional Needs Questionnaire" that's really helpful when doing an inventory of what your principal needs are. You need to have your own met, and meet those of your spouse, to make it successfully.
Qualifications: I'm a geek-guy married to jock-girl, 15 years and counting so far.
--Matt B.
Matthew P. Barnson
I learn what I think when I read what I write
Never Love Pants?
Free Martian Whores!
THAT is the geek attitude: read whatever strategy guides, "missing manuals" and other docs that will let you get the most out of the system, look at what works for others, and most of all don't be afraid to experiment!
The both of you already are taking this very seriously, which you should be. I will tell you, that I have been married twice. Once to a geek and once to a non-geek. The non-geek marriage lasted seven years and fizzled out. Part of the reasoning was that we could not find common grounds any longer.
Currently, I have been married two years to a geek and it has been great.
Some advice:
First and foremost, communicate. Open and honest communication. You don't like the way she does something? Fine, just suggest to her that you would do something different. You don't like what she cooks? Tell her. But don't be an ass. I guess I should rephrase this all to be open and honest communication without anger.
Second, make time for each other. Try and do stuff together. Not ALL the time, but on a regular basis. Have a "date" night. If you have kids, get a babysitter. Go see a movie or a concert or have a nice dinner or have a walk in the park or something.
Third, you have your friends, she has hers. Don't forget that. When you get married, sometimes people cut off a lot of contact with nonmarried friends. This can lead to resentments later. Let her go out with the girls sometimes and you can go out with the guys. This philosophy also applies to your time/her time.
Let's see, there's also agree to disagree on things. You each have a right to an opinion. I have heard the "don't go to bed angry" one before, but honestly, it's not relevant. Sometimes, if you have a fight, you both need the night to calm down. Another thing is, know how to tell if one another is mad and how to approach each other. Does she want to talk when she is angry or does she want to be left alone and will let you know when she has calmed down and is ready to talk and vice versa? This falls back to communication. Share in triumphs and share in tradegies, once you are married, you are one and the same. If she has a bad day, be sympathetic. Surprise her once in a while: if she isn't allergic, send her flowers or chocolates at work, if for no other reason than just to say you love her.
There are many things you will learn, some may be pearls of wisdom from books, others may be common sense. The best teachers will be experience and patience. Remember to have plenty of patience. Always.
Congratulations on your impending nuptials.
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
I get the joke, but can't let this pass. Communication and Commitment. Way too many people go into marriage thinking it's love that will keep us together. HAH! Wait till you can't pay the bills. Suddenly cuddling doesn't quite cut it.
Like any geek the poster is probably looking for, but not directly, some kind of acid test. Here's a suggestion; Borrow a kid for a week. Preferably two or more. Preferably tweens. Two smart people can go very badly wrong if they don't have some kind of Confidence in each other when it comes to decisions about their children. I don't mean that one would do something wrong - that's the easy one to solve. I mean regarding rational choices; Is bedtime 8 or 9 pm? Should a 10 year old have a cell phone? Johnny wants to go to church with his friends, but we're of a different (or no) faith.
Communication, Commitment, Confidence.
My Advice...don't get married. It's a trap.
What happens when you get married:
1. Sex stops
2. She get's fat (probably you too)
3. All your money starts disappearing for no apparent reason.
4. You will be surrounded by strange and insufferable relatives from some place you have never heard of.
5. You will get to drive the old car.
6. Gaming did you say? That won't last long. "I can't believe you are going to play on the computer AGAIN. You just played last week!"
7. She will start asking you if she looks fat, despite the fact she is perfectly aware of #2
8. She won't cook (See #1) and she won't be able to make a decent dinner.
9. You will have to leave the house when her literary friends come over to discuss the life analogies in some gay French author's book.
10. LAN parties? No Fucking Way in her house!
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
the other side of honesty is that people who love each other and have a good relationship still do have fights. It's just that they know how to resolve the disagreements. conflict avoidance will doom a marriage. Learning how to resolve a conflict into a mutually beneficial arrangement is the real sauce to a lasting relationship
The fact that you can even ask such a question on /., makes me wonder!
ok, you have to get to the basics, take the brainless standards used in the manuals... and extrapolate for your relationship....
is your weekly M:TG night going to annoy her?
are you going to spend more time painting miniatures than with her?
is she a trekkie while you're a member of the rebel alliance?
my wife can't stand star trek, and loves harry potter.... i can look passed these faults, because i love her....
if you love her, whatever failings she has, shouldn't matter....
If you want your marriage to last, then you should both find mentors who have long-lasting, healthy, happy marriages.
A couple with similar personalities and family backgrounds, 20 or so years down the road from you would be the best fit. You might have to search at work, professional, social, or religious organizations that one or both of you belong to to find these people. These should not be close family members who see things through a lens of "your side" of any issue, but more likely people you've met after you were already in a serious relationship or married.
Also, if many of friends get divorced down the road, I'd suggest you disassociate with most of them (not necessarily all - I'm not telling you to ditch your best friend). Many of them will give you bad advice tainted by their own bad experiences. Find friends who have healthy, committed, long-lasting marriages to hang out with. I'd also look for mentors who have kids that have turned out the same way as you'd like to see yours.
As with most serious endeavors in your life, supporting mentors and peers will be a huge key to success. Somehow in our culture people get this idea that romance is a deal that you are going to go the distance alone, the truth is that it often requires a lot of support and advice.
In your professional life, you'd try to do the same thing - find other people who have achieved or are working toward similar goals and "network" - to use the modern day term. Of course this works much the same way in every part of your life.
I've heard a quote - "You are the same today as youâ(TM)ll be in five years except for two things, the books you read and the people you meet." from a guy named Charlie T Jones. I know that I am tempted at times to just read the book and then try to do it alone. Whether it be something as simple as building a tree-house for my kids, or as complex as heading up a big project at work, or as daunting as raising a kid with ADD - I've found that finding mentors who've been there and peers who are there can make all the difference in the world.
It's a stupid little thing, but if your schedules allow it, I highly recommend showering together every morning or evening. It's some time with just the two of you, no other real distractions, and some nice physical closeness. Even if you end up being busy and running your own direction the whole rest of the day, at least you have some time together when you aren't too tired and grumpy to appreciate each other.
My biggest advice on relationships is the "You can be right or happy" line. Don't give up all the time, and don't stop communicating your point, but choose your battles. The vast majority of the time, whoever actually cares most about what the current issue should get their way. The moment you realize you've said or even *thought* anything that is generalized or hurtful toward your partner is the moment you need to stop the argument and come back to it later.
As a minor example - if "can you get the dishes done tonight?" turns into "you never do the dishes because you're a slacker, and you make me do all the work in the house," EVEN JUST IN YOUR HEAD, stop the encounter immediately, say you'll work this out later, and come back when you're more emotionally rational. This argument cannot end well if either of you start getting defensive. You can bring up balance of workload in a separate conversation if it *is* actually an issue, at another time when neither of you are actually upset.
This advice comes from someone who has been living very happily with a programmer girl for five years now. Five years that included graduating college, a long distance relationship over a summer, living with grandparents while looking for a house to buy, refinishing an old house, and my losing my job. All classic relationship stressing events. It all comes down to wanting the other person to be happy more than anything, communication, and respecting each other. Honestly if you're learning anything in those marriage guidance books you're probably in pretty rough shape to begin with.
Come on, geek-loving ladies. Give some input.
www.gaiageek.com
The separate bank accounts is important.
I balance my check book. Every month. The day the statement comes out. Everything is in Quicken. I can tell you what I spent on groceries in 2002.
My wife checks the bank web site to see if she still has money.
So I pay almost all our "joint" bills, and (because we make roughly the same amount of money) she writes me a check for half of them each month after deducting my half of the few she pays.
We had a joint bank account for a while but it wasn't worth the cost and work.
She has a few of my credit cards but they never get used. In general, all our finances are separate except for that monthly check.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Hmm, you made me curious what countries wont allow a wife to take control of your bank account regardless of what an american judge says that she owns 50% of your assets or whatever. Just thinking ahead for the day that will inevitably come where I'll fall into the idea that marriage is a good thing ... I'd like to know a safe place to put part of my assets that no one else can get ahold of, even if I'm dead.
The Goal: A long simple life filled with many complex toys.
From my experience (having lost a 12 year relationship) and I'm now in a 2 year old one...the big three issues that keep cropping up are money, chores, and sex.
Do you have similar ideas about the value of money and to what degree to save it, to what degree to take risk with it/invest it? Does one person spend almost every penny of their disposable income while the other saves...and thus the burden of buying big items like home repair etc. fall proportionally more on one person than the other? (assuming you proportion expenses relative to individual incomes)
Does one person value a tidy house more than the other? Trust me, if this is the case, you *will* eventually have issues over completely silly things like dishes sitting in the sink. But if you handle the differences early and can see that each person is keeping up with their end of the bargain/compromise, then living with the compromises isn't hard at all. Let the messy person have some space to themselves out of "public" view so the neat person doesn't have to rant that you can't have company over.
The last issue that I can almost guarantee will crop up is the frequency of sex. I one person is always in the mood while the other prefers several weeks between lovemaking....not fun. The person always in the mood feels like they're constantly begging and can get bummed out by all of the rejections. The person who's not in the mood will feel like they're always under assault. Why can't they be left alone for a little while? They're tired of being the fall guy or the one considered not normal.
;i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate
You sound like a very sad man.
Well duh. He already said he was married.
Or a frequently wrong man.
90% of the time when she has a problem she wants to talk about, SHE DOES NOT WANT YOU TO SOLVE IT, she wants to TALK about it! They have to vent and discuss and analyze and most of all gossip about the problems they have. Men just want to get things done and if it dose not work fix it. Spending time talking about a problem without the intent to resolve it goes against everything we are made up of, however that is just the way they work.
Still trying to get this right after 17 years marriage (to the same girl) so good luck! Ooh and if you ask them which they want, they will tell you they want it solved, just don't try and offer them advice on how to accomplish that!
Yes I too am a computer geek with a literary geek wife. We've been married for a few years now. In fact we celebrated our 8th anniversary just yesterday. There are basically three rules to keeping a successful marriage of equals. 1. Communication - I know it's a cliche, but it's true. Make sure you're open, honest, and most of all empathic with your wife. You can't just go headlong into a decision without consulting her. She needs to make half the decision. If you both do not come to a consensus then do not take the actions that the decision dictates. 2. Share the duties - This really is a non-issue if this is a marriage of equals, but this is quite important to remember. I'm not saying schedule who cooks dinner on which day, but if chores need to be done at home, take the initiative, write a list and tackle them together. If you see a sink full of dishes, wash them. If you see the garbage overflowing, take it out. I Usually take my kids to school in the morning, while my wife comes home earlier to help take care of them at the end of the day. Don't make her feel like she is the domesticator of your home. Make it both your home by sharing in the responsibility. 3. Keep the fun alive - Know her interests and support her in them. Allow her to do the same with you. Don't take things to seriously, otherwise life itself will be a chore. My wife recently has taken up golf, though I've never hit a round of golf in my life, and never had any interest in it, going out with her to practice driving was actually quite fun. Be spontaneously loving. bring her some flowers once in a while for no apparent reason. Give her a surprise vacation (though this may be a little hard to do, 'cause if she may need to schedule some time off of work). Make her feel like she is the only person in your life who really means anything to you. She'll definitely respond in kind. This really is true for most marriages, but I find that in marriages of equals, this is especially true. Not only does your life run smoother, but you're both a lot happier.
"Small lies, it's what holds relationships together."
Empathy holds a relationship together. It sometimes directs you towards small lies, but that's probably the least important benefit in being empathetic toward your partner.
Wait... that WAS supposed to be funny, right? Like, a math joke or something?
Yeah that showering thing sounds like a good idea, and it is fun... right up until someone slips while switching positions and you put an ass-sized hole in the tile... :P
So, uh, we stopped showering together so frequently about two years ago.
If there's one thing i've learned in this relationship, it's that if you're fooling around anywhere there's a hard object (table, floor, tub, etc) someone will eventually get hurt. Soft things work much better for a reason.
I know a bunch of marriages where both partners have "strayed" repeatedly, yet are still happy. That's because I know lots of polyamorous people.
Which brings me to the only useful piece of advice I have: it's up to you and you partner(s) to define the boundaries and style of your relationship. You've already figured out that the "jock/cheerleader" model presented to you is wrong for you: be vigorous in questioning everything else that you're told about how you "should" be.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
It sounds lame but..
My Girlfriend and I ( we are getting married in September) both come from non-divorced parents. We have both seen our parents go through rough patches and even though as a kid, you don't see the complete show (since they keep a lot behind the curtains to protect you), it did give as both the idea that marriage is not something you take for granted or should consider lightly. I took us almost 5 years to take the step but we are both confident AND determined that we can and will make this work.
As to many of our friends who's parents didn't make it, we notice they see marriage differently. They have more the "it should go automatically, if not , you should split".. They make fun of use because we see it all "too romantic" while in fact, they just seem to keep the "bail out" handle in their hands at all times. Having this emergency exit in mind, AND the insane idea that in a marriage, everything should come natural, They don't bother to work on their relationship and/or are ready to make a compromise. This has lead to several longer going relationships/marriages (3, 4, 8 years) ending...
So in short: know you want to do this, know it does not come natural. The key is not to find out what you should do to make it work, cause you can't. No book in the world can tell you how you will be thinking about things in , let's say 5 years from now.. your complete view on things can change by any sort of event (meet other pretty girl, have car crash, get sick or even reading a book).. The only thing you need to keep in mind is that as you grow individualy, try to grow together too and never ever forget that it still is something you need to work on..
In my particular case, we do projects together, even tough i'm a boring IT Geek and she is a flashy commercial chick in the banking industry, we find our common ground and play there together once in a while (concerts, books, movies/series).. For the rest, we each keep having our own thing: shopping for her, kernel recompiling for me...
Oh.. and a personal tip: if you want to do geeky projects, 3 things:
A) make sure it works ( they don't like to be locked out cause your domotics system won't open the doors anymore)
B) check with her first ( don't install a "surprise present" carputer in her brand new car. they say the like surprises but they actually don't)
C) let her have her own pc.. wanting to check your e-mails just when you killed your computer system....again.. is just asking for trouble
13+ Years of geek marriage (and still going) brought about these lessons the hard way:
1) For chores around the house: write down a list of what you like to do, what you are neutral with, and what you don't like. That way you don't end up doing chores you don't like just because you should.
2) Views change. Even if you "know" what the other person thinks, verify.
3) Assume that the person's worst characteristics will get worse, and learn how to cope with them. Trying to change someone will only lead to pain and misery.
4) For any life changing events. Don't do it until both parties agree that it is the best choice. Battle it out, knock it out. Spend weeks working it out, but don't "just let it happen". Neither one of you should give up a life and then later say "I did _____ for you and it ruined my life." Both of you agreed it was the best choice. (This one I learned from observation).
Ok, I give up, why you?
I was reading through this comment list and despairing that someone was going to come up with exactly what you said. If I had mod points, I wouldn't have replied :)
I've been married. Twice, now... and I've been divorced twice. The first time around, I married a fellow computer geek. We were far better friends than we were "a couple", and marrying her was a mistake. The simple fact is that there's a certain amount of social weight that gets piled upon you when you get married, and that does wear on a relationship. I don't regret that marriage, but do regret that finally the pressure piled upon us by those around us (family, friends, general social expectations and so forth) tore us apart and even destroyed the friendship we had once shared. In the last few years we tried to rekindle that friendship but found things too hard. My second marriage was to a non-geek and suffered from many of the same problems. I got a son out of the deal, but also ended up split asunder again by social pressures and the fact that her and I just never had enough in common. It wasn't helped by the non-geek in the relationship constantly hounding me for technical support on her laptop... exasperating after dealing with users at work all day... I felt like I never left.
Now, I have a girlfriend. She's also divorced and both of us agree we are NEVER going to marry one another for the simple reason that we'd like to remain as we are; together because we choose to be together, not because some social expectation and contract say we should be together. We both agree that it puts a lot less pressure on a relationship. OK, her mother still encourages us to marry because she's a good Christian woman... but that's the limit of the pressure we get piled upon us. No, I don't get to take advantage of the tax breaks you get for being married... but I earn enough that I was able to soak up the drop in take-home pay after the divorce with minimal lifestyle changes (mostly just doing things like wiping out my credit cards, driving a car that's paid off... things like that).
My girlfriend is also a nice balance; she's an accountant by profession but is still enough of a geek that she flashes a new ROM on her phone periodically because she can... she's looking quite jealously at my AT&T Fuze running Windows Mobile 6.5 right now... ;)
Female geeks tend to be more intelligent and more independent. Their relationships frequently go sideways because their independence causes to refuse to compromise.
There are only three important things to consider.
First. Think of this like programming with ramming with rules. Together you create rules. Dont break them.
Second. Compromise. Successful relationships with independent women fail unless you can compromise. Always establish that you are compromising when it happens. It should never be assumed.
Third. Sex. Never compromise on sex. Humans are hardwired the associate sex and partnering up. When you stop having sex either you are your partner start looking for a new partner. Especially if she is independent. This is Hardwired. If you have friends that are new parents. You can observe this bug in the wild. Offspring tend to end ones sexlife for a while for various medical reasons. If both partners are extremely faithful the only perceived result is some sub-conscience guilt about considering sex from other sources; when they are less faithful its a little crazy how fast they start looking.
There was a female author who wrote a book about how having sex every day for a year had a near miraculous resurrection effect of her almost completely failed marriage. Sex = Not just important to men. Women tend to assume that after you are hitched that sex isnt that important. Maybe that was true in 1920 or 1950 but in 2009? Not even close to true. Any woman who believes that has a divorce to look forward to.
That covers nearly everything I was going to post.
There are a lot of little things that look like total bullshit that really make a difference. I can say that, I've been married for almost 15 years now. So I have a little cred here. Always, every single night, ask her how her day went, and ask questions as she goes through it. You know you're doing this right when you can name her boss and at least two co-workers she interacts with daily and describe their personalities to some degree. Once again, sounds like bullshit, but it's a big impact.
There are two styles of conflict resolution. Some couples use direct confrontation, and some negotiation. We negotiate. They key is to find consensus, something you can both agree on completely. If you reach a decision and realize that you didn't win, she didn't win, but you won as a couple, then you're doing it right.
I think it was Heinlein who said "If you're wrong, apologize immediately. If you're right, apologize even faster." A bit harsh, but what he means is don't celebrate when you're right, and downplay it quickly. The problem is, that if you look victorious, she feels like she's lost. And that's not going to end well.
Every day, try to sit down to one meal a day together. Even if it's at McDonalds or something. This is where the "how'd your day go" conversation should happen.
A lot of people will tell you to do everything together. They're wrong. Do what you both enjoy doing together. Do what you don't both enjoy doing apart. I play video games. She knits. I ride my bike. She watches tv. We do cook together, go on road trips together, and a bunch of other stuff. But don't do stuff together just for the sake of doing stuff together. One of you will look bored, and the other will try to rush through things and not enjoy it. And that'll end badly. So just decide to do stuff apart sometimes.
my wife is working on her doctorate in ancient greek history, and I'm posting on /. so you can guess what my proclivities are.
While I don't claim to be the world's leading expert on marriage, my geeky wife and my geeky self have managed to stay together 13 years now and we're still going strong. With that in mind, here are a few things that have saved ME a lot of grief over the years. (And trust me, I learned all of this the hard way.)
1. make time for each other. this sounds obvious, both when my wife and I are both in full-on geek mode (her in her library surrounded by old manuscripts, me in my office surrounded by computers) it can be easy to ignore each other. we schedule time to spend with one another, as terrible as it sounds that we have to schedule it, it really is necessary and that's the only way we remember to do it because we both get sucked into our work to the exclusion of all else.
2. try and find at least one common hobby. I definitely understand how difficult this can be, but make sure you have at least one activity you both like that you can do together. my wife and I play golf together a few times a month, and we go to the gym together a few times a week. sometimes it's a strain on our schedules to do so, but it has to be a priority.
3. this is going to sound exceedingly childish, but it's important: don't forget to make time for intimacy. (that's the grown-up word for fucking). when you have two stressy, busy, career-driven people, it can be really hard to a) make time and b) get in the mood. it can be really easy to laugh this off as silly and then have it edged right out of your schedule, but it only leads to unhappiness on the part of both parties.
4. there will be fighting. prepare for it. no matter how well you get along, you will eventually get pissed off at eachother. this is a fact of life and there's no avoiding it. marriages don't end because people fight, they end because people fight and say things they regret, get too emotional, take out job related frustration on each other, etc. try and see things from her perspective and remember that being right is not always more important than being nice. as a left-brained, type A control freak, I had a very bad time wrapping my head around this one. you don't always have to correct people when they are wrong, no matter how tempting, and your wife is no exception.
5. as awful and stereotypical as this sounds, it's generally true that girls tend to be more sensitive, so watch your mouth. it took me a while to realize that my constant joking around (e.g. calling your coworker a retarded douche when he screws up some code, or telling your friend that he's a monstrous blubbery whale when he eats a lot of nachos) was not always received in the lighthearted way in which it was intended. girls tend to take these kinds of things overly seriously, I have no idea why, so tread carefully.
6. money problems plague most marriages. my wife and I keep our money separate to avoid this. we divide up the bills each month and each pay our share, and we take turns buying groceries. while it might seem ridiculous for husband and wife to have totally separate bank accounts, it has saved me and my wife a lot of arguing. we each spend money as we please (none of this "I need to ask my wife first" bullshit) and we each take responsibility for our share of the shared utilities. ALL of the marriages I have personally seen fail failed because of money trouble and the arguing and backstabbing that goes with it.
7. try to have fun with it and don't take anything too seriously, this advice included. good luck!
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
Some times you have to say yes dear, and then do what you wanted anyway; */ducks the flying pan...
Good advice (especially putting the spouse first)! Yep, girl here in a geek marriage going on 20 years. Something my husband and I have done a couple of times is sort of have an "amnesty" for a few days for complaining about annoying little things: "You leave the sponge in the sink and I hate that enough that it's sort of irrational and I admit that, but if you would rinse it and squeeze it out and put it on the back of the sink it would just make that annoyance go away." And we promise to be extra-rational geeks so we can work those out. Neither one of us has a temper, but I can see "just walk away"... as long as it doesn't last too long. I'd say admitting up-front that you have a temper, and then during an argument saying "I'm getting irrational, it's not *you*, but I need to walk away so I can calm down my thinking" could be something that saves you from real problems. And "don't go to bed angry" doesn't mean you have some sort of deadline for solving every problem, it just means to not be *angry*. If necessary, acknowledge it fully and promise to work it out (and do). Again, the geek rationality can serve here. Never speak of divorce (shudder). If you do, it'll *always* be an elephant in the room. And last but far from least, #2 is so important. Every day, at some point, *notice* her. Is she tired? Happy? Pretty? New hairdo? Aging (yes, it will happen, if you're lucky!)? Worried? Thoughtful? Laughing? In time, things happen: kids, jobs, travel, unemployment, friends, moves, bosses, medical problems, money, relatives... and you'll forget to really pay attention to *her*, you're so used to her being there. But make sure you always "come back" and acknowledge her and tell her you love her. Re-read item 2 in parent!
Do not be a door-mat, while it may keep a certain amount of peace at times, do it too much and your women will lose interest.
Rephrase: Learn to say "Yes, dear" and do what you want anyway.
You are a wise person. I found myself nodding as I read every one of your points.
Watch that temper though. A time may come when the wife just won't agree to disagree and you *will* go to bed angry. At that point your marriage probably needs some outside help.
(I liked #6 by another poster)
7. take time out. Choose something invigorating that gets you both away from the job, the kids, the in-laws, the computer and the budget. Do this regularly. If you have divergent interests, you pick one time, the wife picks the next time and so on. Optimally these "excursions" should be something completely out of both of your comfort zones. Neither of you know Matisse from Manet? Go to an art gallery or even a local showing. Volunteer at an archaeological dig.
8. Be aware of each others' stress indicators and help each other in recognizing the buildup. We're not always very aware of our own stress buildup. Do #7 proportionally ;)
Since your into reading the relationship books, the only ones I've found in my 14 years with my wife is "The 5 Love Languages" and it's sister book "The 5 Languages of Apology" by Gary Chapman. Most books read like compilations of Cosmo articles. If you want to hear the superficial, keep reading those. The 2 books I mentioned discuss the essential levels of love and apology. Each personality processes meanings differently. It's real easy for 2 people who speak identical love languages to get along. For those who have different love languages, it is essential to understand how each other interpret love and you will have to work at showing it in a meaningful way for her, and her to you. For instance, my love language is service. When she does something for me, even something small, I'm happy. In return, I am inclined to show love through service. Unfortunately, her language is words of affirmation. It annoys her when I spend a lot of time doing things for her. She flies high when I simply take the time and tell her meaningful compliments and expressions of thanks. As simple as it sounds, in the ranking of things, words of affirmation rank the lowest of the 5 for me so it is really a difficult task for me to do. Now that you see the flow of this, the languages of apology are the same. All I require is an expression of apology. Acknowledge you done me wrong and express that your sorry and I'm good to go. My wife is a restitution personality. If I am going to drink her tea while she is in the bathroom, I better be ready to make her a new cup. These books are written by a Christian author, but there is little theology. Even atheists look to glean wisdom from religious philosophy. Believe what you like, but don't discount these 2 books. Understand them and your on solid ground with your marriage. Check the website and take the quiz to determine which is your language at http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/
I recommend an evening of asking each other questions like these: http://www.bbc.co.uk/relationships/couples/life_questions.shtml it's actually a lot of fun and you learn a bit more about each other!
http://www.loveandrespect.com/
This was an excellent foundation to our marriage. Built on foundations described in the Bible, following the tenents in this series has helped us stay out of trouble.
I've noticed that most of the advice on here pertains to guys alone. The woman has a part in the marriage too. She's supposed to respect her husband unconditionally. The man is supposed to love her unconditionally, a sacrificial love, "as Christ so loved the church."
It's worked out wonderfully for my wife and I, and you don't really need to be a Christian to take the advice to heart.
find ~your -name '*base* | xargs chown
I have to agree. I always used to apply logical operations on sematic operands (and don't tell me you've never done it: Do you want to wear pants or shorts? Yes!)
This only gets more annoying as other people listen to you over time! Natural Language Processing lets you still answer the question correctly while not pissing of your spouse.
--Edward Dassmesser
Wow, I'm a linux geek and my wife is a literary/gaming geek. We just got married last year.
From experience:
-- Change "sports" in those books to "games and linux"
-- Do *NOT* install the latest Alpha release of your distro because "it's stable enough"
----- If you *STILL* do the above, be sure you do it on a computer that she doesn't use
-------- If you *STILL* do it on *HER* computer, be sure to show her any and all of the differences.
----------- If you *STILL* don't show her what's new and let her know what's going on, be prepared for no sex / a divorce.
I agree that that phrase is less often said than it needs to be said.
But by itself it accomplishes little. It can even be counter-productive. How often do *you* want to hear your loved one tell you "I'm sorry!" for exactly the same thing. Without some commitment to change (and progress thereof) it's really pretty meaningless.
"The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage" by Dr Laura is a great help in developing a lasting marriage.
One of the rabbis my geeky wife and I discussed our then-pending marriage with handed me a sheet entitled The Rules. I remember exactly two of them:
. . .
In the ensuing 18 years, I have found these two rules to be the most accurate advice anyone has ever given me.
But seriously, the main thing to do with your wife is to talk to her and share your feelings, and listen to her when she talks. A very good book on communications between the genders is You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation, by Deborah Tannen. The executive summary: When your female partner tells you about a problem, most of the time she wants you to shut up and listen, and not to try and tell her how to fix it. Besides helping me get along with women, the book has also helped me get along better with other men.
In any case, felicitations to you and your geeky honey. Live long and prosper, and be fruitful and multiply.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
The success to a marriage is simple.
1 - your partner HAS TO be your best friend. The lust and desire you feel will go away at times, only the strong friendship will carry you through those days.
2 - Drop the adversary or competitive crap. It's not a race, it's not a competition, she is not your enemy. Stop that crap that most people do. IF you want to buy a new $1100 motherboard that supports 6 quad core processors and she says no. Ask why. discuss.
3 - drop the "my money" and "your money" bull. it's all your familys money. Every dollar you make is hers, and every dollar she makes is yours. You both have a 100% say in what get's spent where start hiding crap or lying and you are destroying your relationship. you both make decisions about it's use.
4 - Trust, if you cant trust each other 100% right now then stop. Stop the wedding, stop it all. you MUST HAVE complete trust, stronger trust than you ever had in your life. and any damage to that trust will damage your relationship.
5 - You are a complete and utter jerk if you say anything intentionally hurtful to the other person. EPIC FAIL you lose, turn in all your achievements. If you get mean, she will not forget it. The human design does not let go of incredibly hurtful things easily. It's easier to forget physical abuse than verbal or emotional abuse. If you verbally or emotionally abuse each other, you fail.
6 - Trust, Honesty, respect. You are required to do all three at 100%. Dont you fricking dare social engineer the other. That is simply being a Asshat if you cant honestly say , "sweetie I am going downtown to hire 3 hookers and have a 4 way is that ok or do you have somethign else planned?" if you know the answer will be "HELL NO" dont bullshit your way around it to hide your real agenda.
If you cant do all of the above, or try liek hell to do all the above.... then DONT GET MARRIED.
Ir's all about getting rid of every ounce of selfish you have. Selfish is a destructive behavior in a marriage.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
First of all, be aware that it is always your fault, and you are wrong. 100%. For whatever reason.
Secondly, if you have kids, kiss your geek hobbies good bye. All I do now is house repair, kid herding, and wife appeasement. I wouldn't trade it for anything, but my home computer is old and neglected. I have games that are years old and still in shrink wrap because I've got more important things to do.
I've been married for about a year, and was in very much the same boat as the OP. I'm a programmer/sysadmin for a small business (I'm co-owner, and we're REALLY small - so I do a bit of everything). My interests are the usual heady mix of RPGs, computer games, painting miniatures, plus guitar playing, cooking and the obligatory taking things apart to see what makes them tick. My wife is an IT trainer at the local university, has an MA in English Lit, and is a semi-pro photographer. We just had our first anniversary, and so far - so good.
The first thing to realize is that marriage advice books are worth reading, but won't apply beyond the general case in most cases (even the jock/submissive cheerleader marriages they seem to target!). We've been through quite a few (as well as a "pre-marital class" - which was actually worth it mostly for the practical advice from people who've already tied the knot), and the commonalities are where the best gems hide; communication, division of responsibility, how to handle disagreements (you WILL have them - it is inevitable unless you are secretly robots), and a lot of the less enjoyable aspects in general.
Before you even get married, make sure the two of you really know one another. I can't stress that enough (and it's a lot easier to walk away crying before you tie the knot, and better for both of you if it wasn't a good idea in the long term). That means being completely honest about your past (and receiving the same); there's usually skeletons in the closet from the past that upset you, patterns of behaviour you need to avoid, things that (not entirely rationally) bother you, key-words that hurt (e.g. "stupid" is an insult I hear a lot in geek circles around here, but it's one of the most upsetting words you can say to my wife due to some bad associations from the past). It's unlikely that you've both managed to never be emotionally scarred, and those scars WILL come back and haunt you both if they aren't dealt with. This is a lot harder than it sounds - you make yourself really vulnerable when you share everything like that. On the other hand, you and your future wife are planning on spending the rest of your lives together, so if you can't be vulnerable to your fiancee now - you may need to wait/rethink (and vice versa).
There's a lot of practical advice that can help with living together, most of it documented. Love isn't enough, you actually have to be able to tolerate each other's lifestyle preferences - and be able to keep up with chores to keep the family home running as well. It really is hard work! Chore distribution (yes, just like in a college flop) is important; in my case, I love cooking, electrical work, keeping the various electronics working - so those were easy. My wife volunteered for laundry (finds it relaxing, oddly enough). We both hate washing up, but I picked that one up in return for not weeding the garden. And so on. We also loosely agreed who the final boss is on various issues. That is to say, just like when running a business, you decide who "owns" various issues. The owner is expected to take reasonable consultations, and try to find a mutually acceptable solution - but ultimately, if there's a disagreement, the "owner" makes a decision - and the team goes with it (even if they don't think it's the right choice!).
Make sure you know how to have an argument without killing one another, or brooding for weeks. That'll kill any marriage FAST. Make sure you both know that it's ok to retreat from an argument when it gets too hot - and discuss it more rationally later (but do NOT let it fester - you do have to have the discussion if you do that!). Try to at least kiss and make up before bed, it sucks sleeping next to someone while you ruminate on how wrong they are - and it's a nice idea to keep your associations with the bedroom positive! Avoid the "key words" that hurt above, don't even joke about divorce (that one's pretty much impossible to take back).
Schedule time together - at least 5 minutes every day, even if you just each
Lead developer, http://wisptools.net
I think what you are looking for is the equal of Peter Norton's "Inside the IBM PC" which gave us a look inside the new-at-the-time computer which is still with us to this day.
Well the best book on the subject is "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.
The author was a marriage counselor who was distressed this his clients usually divorced anyway. He felt he was doing something wrong and started going to conferences and discussing methods with others in his field. He discovered the field's dirty secret - marriage counseling usually doesn't save the marriage.
This led him to begin his own research on what people need from a marriage for it to work. He discovered that generally men need 5 things and women need 5 things. This sounds really simple, but these things tend to be the driving force behind our actions. When she does something, rather than react to her actions, you will realize what the core problem is and be able to deal with it instead.
For me, it was also a book of self-discovery. I didn't really realize what drove me and this book helped me realize why my past relationships failed. I've been pretty happy since.
I have two copies of this book. One copy to loan to friends and another on my non-loan shelf to review from time-to-time.
This book is the best $12 I ever spent and I'd put on my top 10 must-read list.
Place nail here >+
The dude at the Love Lab disagrees. In his research - which is more serious and rigorous than I'm making it out to be - he's found three marriage styles that last, and in which the partners are satisfied. One of the lasting marriage styles involves two partners who desire low communication levels. They have to respect each other for the marriage to last, but they don't have to communicate, communicate, communicate.
Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.
Well, on the one hand, you want to be in a relationship with someone who you can tell bad news to without fearing that they'll turn on you. If you lose your job, for example, and won't be able to afford a house you both want to buy, a good wife/husband will feel sympathy for you over the loss of employment before they feel angry about not getting the house they want when they want it. If you'd lie about something like that to avoid a blowout, there are several problems that you need to fix before you lay down cash for a ring, the solutions to which might involve breaking things off all together. And from personal experience, the problem could be that you don't have enough faith in the person rather than that they would react badly. Honesty and integrity in this sort of a situation is always the best choice. It's tired but true; honesty is the bedrock of a healthy relationship.
On the other hand, "white lies" are a necessary requirement of a successful relationship. Do you mind skipping happy hour with your boys to paint the mother-in-law's living room? Of course you do! BUT, you say it's no problem and do it anyway because it's the right thing to do. Does your fiancee actually give a shit about football, westerns or Street Fighter IV? Mine sure as hell doesn't! BUT, she pretends to listen because she knows I like talking about those things. (Actually, she's pretty conversant in football, and she likes some westerns, but she's from Texas so she throws the sample off a little. Doesn't like video games other than Super Mario Bros., however.)
At the end of the day it's less about honesty, strictly speaking, than it is about intimacy, and putting each other first, or advocating for each other as a previous poster more succinctly put it. You don't need to tell the big lies to someone who you really trust, and you shouldn't marry someone who you don't feel comfortable with seeing your dirty underwear, metaphorically speaking.
And literally, for that matter.
This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
My wife and I (IT geek + Engineering Geek) have been married for just over 20 years. Here are the pearls of wisdom from my Grandfather which will always work: Marriage is NOT a 50/50 deal. If everyone puts in 100%, you will succeed.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
First, before marrying, discuss and make sure you can agree how to handle the following things:
1. Money
2. Religion
3. Children
4. In-laws
Second, make sure that both of you view marriage as a final, irrevocable decision. If either of you keep divorce in your back pocket as an option, then you have two strikes against you.
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
What I have learned after ten years and three children is that when my wife vents/talks about a problem she just wants me to listen and commiserate. I hear problem and I want to solve it, that is dead wrong. She hears my advice, and instead of help she hears me telling her that she is wrong or she is left feeling belittled.
Trust that she can figure it out for herself, and only offer advice if it is specifically asked for. Other than that just listen and offer an encouraging word/hug/shoulder.
You don't need a manual - and if you think you do - then there is already a problem!
I disagree, I can understand perfectly well the anxiety of having the chance of a life time and not wanting to screw it up. The natural geek response to this is to read the instructions! I do agree with the first part however, keep it simple, Love, Communicate, Interact every chance you get, never pass up a chance to hold hands, etc...
I was just married in June and we had a science fiction theme for our wedding. Everyone was encouraged to dress up in their favorite sci-fi costumes - our 'minister' was a vulcan, our parents were characters from Star Wars, Star Trek, and BSG, and our ring bearer was Dark Helmet. We even had a Jedi battle during the reception.
My wife did most of the planning, and got a lot of ideas from Offbeat Brides. I think the pitfalls are mostly the same as with any other wedding - be sure you book your space early, find a reputable caterer, make sure that everyone's outfit is in order, etc. The worst thing you might come across is friction from your own families about having such a non-traditional wedding. Some people have a real problem with anything but the standard church and white dress. Luckily, both of our immediate families were cool with everything and didn't complain. In the end, everyone had a great time that nobody is likely to forget anytime soon.
Here is a picture of our wedding party.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
That should be obvious. Whatever the book says, it applies to someone else's situation. Even if you can relate to it, it wasn't written with you in mind. It's terribly inefficient to read a 300 page book for the 10-word nugget of wisdom that might somehow be applicable some day.
Making it work is simple: it's you (the two of you) versus them (the other 8 billion people on the planet). It sounds stupid, but once you get past the warm-fuzzy aspect, marriage is about knowing that you've got someone covering your back. From that standpoint, it's all about making sure that you a.) actually cover the person's back, and b.) make sure that they know that they know you've got their back. In practice, it's not like a military unit, you aren't being shot at (I hope). Covering someone's back might be providing comfort when everything else provides stress, or helping share the risk of a new venture, you get the idea.
Common advice like "never go to bed angry", love one another, etc. are all good, don't get me wrong. But, fundamentally, they boil down to the golden rule (do unto others as you'd have them do unto you and respect each other as you respect yourself), and watching each other's back.
When you have a conflict -- and you will -- don't lose sight of the fact that it's you versus the world, and you versus each other is simply the other team winning at your expense.
Incidentally, there's this thing called sex. Enjoy that part.
Let's take alpart your list.
1 happens only if you married a liar. If she stops sex after you get married then she was faking liking it when you were dating.
2 happens If you have kids, yes she will get fat, but if you will get fat as well you lazy bastard.
3 happens only when you marry a liar that is hiding things from you see #1
4 she feels the same way, your parents are not a treat to her either.
5 Only because you let her.
6 Again, you married a control freak liar. your fault.
7 say yes, be honest.
8 again did she say she could?
9 OMFG shoot me now.
10 I host a MTG event monthly, Lan partys now consist of 4 42" plasmas in the living room with xbox360's or ps3's networked. she usually ends up the top of the heap and pisses off most of my friends.
If you marry someone that is incompatible with you and you lied most of your dating, yes you get what you listed. if you are honest to each other when you date, and you actually date people compatible with you you avoid most of the above.
the one I cant stand.... WTF is it with all the fricking pillows on the bed? we need 2... TWO!!!! not 60 of them!!!!!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
As a real live girl I have to tell you that if you ever "let me win" at anything you're history, you patronizing remnant of the jock-cheerleader era! Which I guess is another way of saying, "every relationship is different because it's made up of different people." Trust yourself, your partner and God more than anyone else when it comes to what's right. On the other hand, if you happen to see/hear a piece of advice that seems relevant to you, don't dismiss it just because the social conventions behind it are outdated.
-Yeah, I know it's misspelled. Makes me stand out though, right?
You're stating opinions. That in itself I have no problem with. What does somewhat concern me is that your perspective seems to be that your own way of looking at some of these things is the only possible way...and with all due respect, it isn't.
No - they taste best when cooked IN the can over a trashcan fire.
Proximity to railroad tracks or bridge underpasses seem to add to the taste.
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
How hard is your ass? or are you a toothpick that fits easily between the 16" centers of the drywall studs behind the tile?
Honestly, ass sized hole in the tile? I usually end up bruised or with a concussion, that tub spout up your rectum is not fun either.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
write down all holidays such as your anniversary and her birthday so that you can have an online remembrance service email you a week ahead of time. send her flowers, or some small gift like one of those build a bear things at spaced but seemly completely random intervals. about a month/ month and a half apart.remember to act like you did when you first got together and you will never ever run into a problem with your marriage becoming stagnant. which is the first step towards affairs or divorce.
Learn to say, "Yes, dear."
YMMV as always - my gf HATES that even more than she hates "yes ma'am". But the sentiment apples, though.
Free Martian Whores!
Or Barrack Obama about the capitalist system.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Well, speaking as the female half of a two-geek marriage (13+ years so far), I'd suggest that the answer is twofold.
You have been together long enough that you're getting married. I'm assuming that you spent a reasonable proportion of that time living together. (if not, then disregard this post!)
First of all, allow one other space to follow your interests. That also means that, if/when you have kids, you take some responsibility for amusing them so your other half can have some sanity time. Nothe that while they are under 12 months old you can't schedule this time more than a few hours in advance.
Second, talk. This may (and in my case has) meant PMs mid-raid to arrange who was dropping the kids off at school or making the packed lunches. Yell if you need to, but don't hide in a corner. Be honest. Count to ten before making an angry response to anything.
Oh, and ignore the books - and love each other!
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
True True! NEVER go to bed angry! EVER!
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
Take it even further. Every time you walk by her, just touch her ass, or brush up against her gently. Something, anything to keep the physical connection going also.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
Not even as a threat! NOT EVER!
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
Truer words have never been spoken! If you feel it's getting that bad, walk away! Things will be said that you can never take back and that will sit and ferment until it turns rancid and there is no fixing it! There will ALWAYS be fights. If you never fight, then there is something wrong!
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Here Here! The mo
The parent poster has a lot of good advice. He has said a lot of the same things I would say, only better.
One thing I'd like to point out is that the books you're looking at might not be as useless as you might think. The specific examples in them might not apply to you, but the general principles probably do. What I mean is that the sports jockey who neglects his wife to follow his favorite sports/teams is not all that different than the gamer who neglects his wife to make it to that raid in WoW (just an example, if you don't play WoW, then apply it to whatever games you do play).
I'll use myself as an example: my wife thinks I play too much WoW. I don't play as much as I would like to, but I've reached a compromise with her: she allows me to raid 2 nights a week. I choose the nights, but I have to let her know in advance (at least 24 hours if possible). I've found a good guild that works with me on that, not the best but far from the worst, and it's allowed me to see most of Ulduar (up until yesterday the final raid instance in the game). If she sincerely asks me to, I would drop WoW in a heartbeat, but I don't think she ever will as long as I keep it in moderation. She knows that WoW is something that I enjoy, so she lets me play.
I have to second what the parent poster said about putting your wife first. The best, most happy and fulfilling marriages are those in which both partners do this. You can't control whether your wife does, but you certainly can control whether you do! And when you do, your wife will most likely reciprocate. Don't try to keep tabs, though - the geek side of you might be tempted to try "keeping score", but that is not healthy. Just serve your wife and let her (but don't force her) serve you.
Definately do things together. My wife and I are similiar in some ways to the relationship described in the article - she likes to read and I am a gamer. So sometimes we read together (we're working through Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time together, I've read it before but she hasn't), and I've actually gotten her to play some WoW (she's nowhere near as interested in it as I am, but she enjoys playing it together with me).
Don't listen to those who are telling you not to get married. Marriage to the right person is a wonderful thing, and you will have many years of happiness if you do it right. Yes, some marriages end in bitterness, but the best way to avoid that is to marry the right person in the first place, and then continue to treat her in the marriage the way you did while you were dating. The time to figure out if it's not going to work is before you tie the knot - if there are any significant issues make sure they are dealt with as getting married won't make them magically disappear. But also keep in mind that there will be issues - no two people get along perfectly. There's a saying that you should date with both eyes wide open, but keep one eye closed when you are married. What that means is that once you are married, don't dwell on your wife's faults. She isn't perfect, even if she might seem that way now. You will find faults in her, and her in you (possibly even some that you may not yet be aware of or even think of as "faults"). But don't use those faults against her, especially as leverage when you argue. That is bad. When the stress of daily life is getting you down and all you can think about is what is wrong, take a step back and remember the good things about her that drew you to her in the first place. In truth, part of the joy in marriage is working through disagreements because in the end, having a happy wife is worth all the trouble.
As a final thought, in case you're wondering, I am happily married for coming up on two years (my second anniversary [don't forget your anniversary date, she won't] is in less than a week). I look forward to many more years of marriage. Good luck in yours, and may you two find happiness together.
Intelligent responses welcome, flames will be met with marshmallows.
...or you could have a relationship based upon mutual respect and either not have or care about Nos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 10. #9 would probably still bother me, but I'm more inclined to share interests with my wife so we would both host the literary guests and enjoy the experience together. yes, I realize this was a joke, but since this is a serious thread i'd still like to make the counterpoint.
It's probably been said above already, but it bears repeating.
Remember that you're sharing your life with someone. Keep them involved (or at least aware) of what's going on, and visa-versa.
Be open and honest...don't hide or shade the truth.
Talk. Communication is by far the most important aspect as it enables the first two components. Depending upon the type of people you are, this might be easy or hard...and it can get harder as the years progress, and you fall into your patterns. Always try to understand...even if at first, what your partner says may seem nonsensical...just take the time to work through it so you know what's going on.
Give a hand, not a hand-out.
That might work in the 'ideal' world, but, in the real world, you do that, and she will walk ALL over you for the rest of your lives together, and a chick that can do that, won't respect you, and often, will grow tired of you and leave you.
I'm not saying be a tyrant, but, you gotta have some balls, and call the shot more often than not. Give in on the things you really don't care about, but, don't cave on things you really do care about.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I was lucky enough to marry a geek, and have been married for 5 years now. Considering the fact that most geeks are intellectual to some extent, the most important thing I have learned is that communication is key. Never, and I mean NEVER hold something back because you think that your partner won't understand. I also recommend talking about the taboos that most couples do not (i.e. cheating, death, etc.). These are topics that are not always pleasant but they build trust. Another thing is to talk things out instead of arguing. While I have had many heated discussions, we have never actually fought. Be flexible and admit when you are wrong. So many people can't admit when they are wrong due to pride or being just plain pig headed. HTH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
I only say Euros if it is advice that is worth more. Things I have solid real life experience with. Others get the '2 Cents' or 'two Eurocents'. That advice is actually worth more than 2 Euros, I'd say.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Since you are different varieties of geek, find ways to geek out together, and make it a priority. If a common interest fizzles as one or both of you loses interest, find something else to take its place.
With regards to point no. 4
I realize you may have a temper.. but in all honesty.. what could occur to send you into such a rage. I suspect at that point, unless you get angry for no reason, that if you are getting that angry, it may be time to discuss parting ways. I am not trying to be funny here, I mean my wife and I have had are fair share of heated fights, but never to the point where I or she was about to explode and where something physical may occur and by that I do not mean make up sex, but that requires me, or her to just walk away,
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Wait!!
You mean you actually really listen to her while she babbles on endlessly??
Interesting concept.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
DOCUMENT HINTS!
Really, make a txt file or scribble it on your hand or something. You will be a mega hero when you pull out the set of Red Dwarf on Valentines Day that she mentioned in September. Gifts with an inside joke or personal meaning mean a lot more to everyone but especially women in particular so while a lot of people might think you're a fool for getting her Death with Big Pointy Teeth, she'll remember that she mentioned that she loved Monty Python on your first date six months ago.
It might sound a bit cold or mechanical but I think that it's simply a difference of the male mind that we don't put emotional events like that into long term memory and need to augment it a bit.
END OF LINE.
A nice rear is a plus. The waist on the other hand...
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
You should know without asking. You don't need advices or literature on that matter. Listen to your feelings, and be nice. It's a simple recipe that usually works.
Signed by: Another anonymous Computing Geek married to a Literature Geek.
Not many women are capable of saying those words. The ones that can are precious. Any man who can't say those words is stupid.
Free Martian Whores!
I have a few short pieces of advice. I'm not sure that "literary geek" is a good term to use and I wouldn't recommend that you call her by that. Note that women are really really bad at being direct and they will often show displaced anger. As a guy, you will be completely unaware of this so you need to know that it happens. For example, in guy land if your roommate doesn't take out the trash even though he is supposed to, you will yell at him to take out the trash or you will inflict bodily harm on him. That doesn't happen in women land. In women land, the woman may say "You don't love me!" and after much talking and time spent you will finally figure out that she is really upset about the trash. Or perhaps she will give you some serious grief about not taking the trash out but her real problem is that she is angry that you never offer to help out in the kitchen. The other advice I have is that I found that reading the "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" book helped me to understand how men and women see the world differently. I've asked women and they tell me that they think the book's insights are correct. However, note that like any relationship book, this one has its detractors. The most interesting thing I learned in the book was its discussion of how men and women give out points very very differently in relationships and you'd do well to understand that.
Al: "Points A, B, C, and D."
Bob: "D is wrong, it's really E!"
What is implied is that Bob agrees with points A, B, and C, but it never gets spoken. In a relationship, this can sometimes end up leaving a feeling that you're constantly disagreeing with the other person, when really, you're only disagreeing about a small point in the overall issue.
So, if an argument occurs, start by figuring out what you agree on. Then you're working together.
I disagree with a few of these points. Never go to bed angry, YES, go to bed angry, sleep on it and start with a cool head in the morning. Learn to say, "Yes, dear.", NO, communicate and just admit when you are wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
1. Love one another. That's #1 and it always will be. If there is no mutual love, nothing else matters. Your definition and feelings about love (yes, it's about feelings, not just logic or chemical reactions) might be different from hers, but it's not definable anyway. You'll both know it when you have it. Keep it.
2. Stop reading the books. Books are bullshit. The relationship you create with one another is far beyond what can be defined within the squared-off parameters of some outsider's perspective or opinions. All you're doing is making the people who write those useless things a little more wealthy. In fact, you probably should not be listening to anyone on this site about this, including me, but I'm not charging you. Just remember what I say may be worth what you're paying for it. When all the books talk about "compatibility" and the like, they're ignoring the incredible relationships of polar opposites...I think of Mary Matalin and James Carville as a public example. In my own family, I see a couple who are as politically opposite as you can get, but they worship one another. Sometimes, it's not about being compatible, but loving and accepting someone, even if they're different.
3. Here's some man advice: listen. Trust me on this one...don't ever shut her off, no matter how boring the subject matter is, and especially if she wants to vent (yes, even about you). You can have your say when the time comes, but you have to learn to listen to her, showing interest in what she has to say. Always. Even if you don't agree. If you can do this, it will go a long way to your marriage lasting forever. This doesn't mean caving in or compromising. She needs to do the same thing. But men seem to have an issue with this...believe me, I do at times...but this is something that most women wish their men did better. Doing it isn't difficult. The effort you make will be appreciated in spades.
4. Remember that things work both ways. It's a marriage, not a game. You don't push the stick and expect her to move the way you want when you want. Same thing for her. If you like something, tell her. Then find out what she likes and do it. In all things, from movies to leisure to TV to sex. Everything. You cannot get the things you want from a relationship if you're not willing to share that responsibility. Neither can she.
5. If you value your relationship and you truly love her, be ready for fight for her, hard. I hope that you never have a reason to do this, but you have to be willing to give it all up for her if that moment comes. I'm not speaking just of "fighting" in the physical sense, but emotionally, romantically, spiritually, whatever. In the end, the fight may be futile, but you have to be willing to go as far as necessary if you value the relationship and want to preserve it, even save it. Some people stay together a long, long time, both knowing that love and devotion are there. But sometimes, one party doesn't realize the depths of love and devotion the other has, because words and physical gestures are not often enough to express it. The day may come when you really have to reach down for this, so be prepared for it.
Now, the cynics here might read this and laugh and call it bullshit, but I'm just trying to offer some words based on my personal experiences. Just for disclosure's sake, I'm the geek (professionally) and she's a school administrator. She's not a "geek" in the usual definitions of the term, but she's smart, beautiful, and a superb human being. I am as devoted to her now as I was when I first saw her, 36 years ago, when we were seniors in high school. Next month will be our 30th wedding anniversary. Hope that's evidence of experience.
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
Another thing to look out for is the power level in the relationship. There is only room for one full time captain on the ship. If you want to be the boss all the time and she wants to be the boss all the time it is hard. If one of you wants to be the boss and the other wants to be a follower then that is good. If you want to switch that is good too.
The other thing is some advice is "put your partner first" and "always do what she wants". That won't work all the time. On some level you have wants, things that you absolutely need. Failure to get those things will yield to you being miserable. The same goes for her. In the end you can put your partner first but you have to make sure you aren't neglecting your own needs. Ie if every time you go out to the movies you see what she wants to see and not what you want, you may feel resentful and bottle it up, then that resentment will explode in some other unrelated argument. Not that you should only go to movies you want or the reverse happens. You can even go to mostly movies that she wants. But occasionally you have to slip in your needs. In the end if she is incompatible with your needs, the relationship won't work. Just as you have to bow and help her with her needs she also has to do it for you to an extent.
Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife.
Unfortunately, the reproductive process of these to variants are successful. I suggest getting in touch with your inner dumbass (her as well) and make kids that are competent enough to turn the idiocrocy tide, instead of reading up on it. Sometimes it is good to put down the book.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
Throw an exception if you don't reinitialize the toilet seat.
All good advice, but the most important thing is communication. When I'm mad at my wife, I let her know why. When I'm upset about something she does, I tell her. When we do things together that I enjoy, I make sure she knows how I feel. When Fallout 3 shipped, and I disappeared for a week, she knew it was coming. It's all about communication.
My Advice...don't get married. It's a trap.
What happens when you get married:
Are you actually married, or are you just saying what sounds like might happen?
If you have a good relationship, the opposite can also be true.
1. Sex stops 2. She get's fat (probably you too)
Let me rephrase that for ya: Sex stops because you both got fat and can't be bothered.
My wife is in better shape than when I first met her because we've worked together to get her out of jobs that have excessive hours so that she can go to Yoga and other things to take care of herself more.
Sex is a two way street, if you are appealing to her, she will be just as interested as before. It takes work, you have to keep things fresh, everyone gets tired of eating the same thing all the time (puns intended).
3. All your money starts disappearing for no apparent reason.
Money should be clear and open, otherwise there will be doubts or disputes or just unspoken stress. However, yes, there are a lot of expenses that you might not have had when you were living in your mom's basement. Take some time to help with budgeting and understand where the money is going.
4. You will be surrounded by strange and insufferable relatives from some place you have never heard of.
I rarely see her relatives, even though we are in the same city as her parents. But, I get along just great with her family, either way, and I see just enough of them to keep it that way. If you are a good sport about this, it will generally help to keep her happy (if she likes to see family frequently). Just have a reasonable discussion if it becomes too much.
5. You will get to drive the old car.
If driving the old car makes any difference to you, then find an old car that you like.
6. Gaming did you say? That won't last long. "I can't believe you are going to play on the computer AGAIN. You just played last week!"
Just be clear about your priorities and make compromises that are acceptable to both people. Living together before getting married can help a lot in this area.
7. She will start asking you if she looks fat, despite the fact she is perfectly aware of #2
If she is fat, then figure out how to inspire her to get back into shape. It may involve you needing to get into shape, changing your diet, or doing things that she should be doing. Moobs may be par for course, but loosing them would be healthy for you in the long run.
8. She won't cook (See #1) and she won't be able to make a decent dinner.
If you know how to cook, then teach her. If neither of you know how to cook (because your mom did it for you each day), then learn together. It is OK to grow together and do things together when you are married. My wife barely knew how to burn eggs when I first met her, now she can generally make most anything and not burn, over-salt, or generally bung it up. It was an opportunity for us to spend time together and I was able to teach her something I enjoy.
9. You will have to leave the house when her literary friends come over to discuss the life analogies in some gay French author's book.
Tit for tat, boys night out, no problem.
10. LAN parties? No Fucking Way in her house!
This gets back to establishing priorities, a relationship is a two-way give and take. You should still be able to do what is important to you. Again, I would highly recommend living together before hand to really get this sort of thing established.
The good things about marriage are that it gives you a partner in life. Someone that you can rely on to get your back. When things don't work out, you know that there is someone that will understand.
If you don't feel like getting married will actually benefit both of you, then think twice about doing it.
Don't be a jerk. When my fiance and I bought our house, I REQUESTED we set up a LAN party room in the basement. He was obviously happy with that. And I cook for him. And we have plenty of sex. I assume you don't.
First, I ask why do you want to get married? Make sure you have solid, concrete answers for that question. Many people get married because "its the thing to do". Terrible. One of you will end up owing the other half of everything, this includes your RAID NAS. Second, do your 5/10/20 year plans align? Is she your dream killer? Are you ready to have your dreams killed? Are you sure you want your dreams killed? Do you both want the same out of life? Finally, if you don't have common interests, it will put a strain on the relationship. What happens if some of those common interests dwindle? Do you still have a concrete relationship?
There are lots of good ideas above (honesty and communication are good things), but I find it interesting that nobody has talked about values.
My wife and I have been married for almost 15 years. She is a bit of a book geek, while I am a math/tech geek. We are opposites in many ways, but we share core values that keep us in sync. Neither of us is particularly religious, but we still have shared values help us keep things in perspective.
Some of our friends are divorced. For years, they seemed to be great play mates, but ultimately inconsistent values sank their relationships. Beware: if your values are out of sync, then having kids can shine a light on your core differences. For my wife and I, having kids has been great because they help to shine a light on the ways we are consistent. For several of our friends, having kids has shined a harsh light on their differences.
Anyway, good luck. Focus on values. Communicate. Be honest.
--p
"Nothing is impossible. Some things are just less likely than others." - Jonathan Winters
First off, being "in love" with someone is a pretty messed up mental state which often blinds people to the faults and realities of the other person. This state of being "in love" can last a couple of years - though it does last far longer for some folks. The biology of this emotional state is to get two people who would otherwise not hook up, to have kids. Essentially, love blinds you to the faults (large and small) of the other person so that you are willing to make an eternal commitment to the other person.
1. Sex in relationships often diminishes regardless of the honesty of the people involved mostly because the female does not have the same sex drive as the male. Other factors contribute to the decrease in sex: medications (such as the birth control pill, anxiety medications, etc.), time stresses (got married and now you are both focuses on earning money to pay for the mortagage), and the negative emotional baggage that builds up over time. Sure, you love her now, and the fact that she won't do the dishes until the last dish is dirty doesn't bother you, but it will bother you a lot three years from now when you come home from an exhausting day of work related hell to find that all of the fucking cups are dirty. You won't get confrontational about it then because you are TIRED and it's a small thing. But sand is a small thing, and it can irritate the hell out of you. And after you have kids. . . sex is a challenge because nothing on earth kills the moment like the sound of your offspring opening the door for . . . a drink of water.
2. Weight gain happens because your metabolism changes and as you get older the work you do becomes less and less physical.
3. You money stops going where you wanted it to go when you were single. That causes resentment because no matter what, marriage does not change WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU LIKE. Don't expect her to change either. The only thing that changes people of either sex is trauma - emotional, physical trauma.
4. Relatives . . . mine are strange and insufferable. I like my in laws better.
5. My spouse drives the vehicle I don't want to drive. Right now, I drive the new truck and she drives the old civic. When we bought the SUV, she drove it, because I liked driving the protege better, of course she wanted to drive it.
6. Neglecting your spouse because you play HALO, or WOW 80 hours per week will cause just as much trouble as if you spent 90 hours per week working came home and watched football. It's the not being fair to the other person and forgetting that they need you to participate in their emotional well being part that cause the trouble.
7. Yes, she will ask. You will lie about it.
8. Learn to cook well.
9 & 10. Love is blinding so you'd better be sure she's being honest. If she likes to do the same things you like to do then you're doing pretty well. Otherwise, you'll need some win-win negotiations.
Honesty is the most important factor. If a person is brave enough to be honest with you, and very much wants to be a part of your life and vice versa, great. Beware though, the deceiver, because like a cheater, a liar keeps on lying.
Been there, done that, have the tee-shirt.
Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
I agree completely here. However, I find that simply stating "I hear only what you say, not what you are thinking or meant to say" results in "But you should try to understand me, I shouldn't have to spell everything out". People need much more visceral instruction, generally. What you need to realize is that she is actually telling you "Don't listen to what I say, I expect you to interpret my words in order to understand my meaning". A couple of times of "interpreting" something she says completely wrong ("I know you said you didn't want to throw a dinner party this weekend, but I figured you just meant you wanted it to be a surprise. Should I tell all of our friends to go home now?") and she'll start communicating more directly.
WARNING - you MUST appear completely well-meaning, loving and supportive. Any hint that you are attempting to "teach her" something will result in pure Hell reigning down upon you for the rest of your life together with this woman. She will begin communicating MUCH more directly and you will regret it.
...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
1. have fun 2. stay best friends 3. get it on at least twice a week and keep it freaky. physical intimacy leads to closeness the rest of the time, too. Keeping it interesting, uh, keeps it interesting 4. pick your battles. Is this *thing* worth arguing about? Is it *really* worth arguing about? 5. be able to be wrong and be able to verbalize and appologize 6. compliment her every day.
Some good stuff in here.
I'm the geek (and /. reader). She's more the nerd (intelligent and socially awkward but not really into any one thing). I kiss her every morning before I go to work (even though she's still sleeping and even if I'm mad at her). We have "together things" and "individual things". I encourage her to have her girl's nights and she lets me have my guy nights. We both deal with the kids and chores as needed.
It takes more effort to argue and complain about doing the dishes (and still eventually do them) than it does to just do them; don't fight over things that don't matter.
Look her in the eyes when you tell her you love her.
Oh....and one more thing to make a happy marriage.....get kinky. Not every time. Not beyond her comfort level. But mix it up in the bedroom. Seduce her one night. Tie her up and spank her the next. Take her to a sleazy motel or an adult bookstore. Buy her a vibrator (I recommend a Rabbit) and learn how to "help" her with it. Just don't make it a routine. Routine sex gets old and that's when she stops bothering with it. Focus on her orgasm first (your's happens much easier).
ROFLMAF!
Shhhhhh....You are the only one who seems to realize it. Who knew Slashdot was populated by so many metrosexuals?
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
While whatever you've read may focus on Sports, common roles, etc, I recommend you take the advice to heart. Recognize that basically, you are still the male, and your wife is still the female. Regardless of how much you try to downplay those roles, I have no doubt that at some point you will see them. My wife is very independent, but occasionally she falls into the stereotypical roles that we eschew so much. Likewise, I sometimes fall into the stereotypical male roles that I generally try to avoid. That's because we're human beings and we have natural instincts.
At any rate, while you may not be interested in sports, it doesn't mean that you're immune to neglecting your companion, and that's the important part. Likewise, there are some ways she might neglect you. Make efforts to talk to each other, understand the needs of each other, and make sure you're doing what you can to care for her.
I wish you the best of luck and success in your marriage. Congratulations!
Forgive my prying, but might I know what social expectations destroyed your marriages? Its just that I do know some married couples, and I cant really think of any pressures I mightve put on them due to their marriage.
If you can honestly contemplate living with (not just fucking) someone for years on end and NOT listening to them, you don't want a wife, you want a RealDoll.
Marriage is for people who get lonely by themselves. Relating to another human being is the whole goddamned point.
"This American Life" had an interesting episode a year or two back involving research on couples where they were asked to discuss some contentious point in their relationship. They played segments of the various arguments. At first blush, some of the arguments seemed pretty bad but what the research had discovered was the little clues in the discussions. At one point in a heated discussion the guy paused and commented "Are those new shoes? They are nice." The researcher commented that traditional wisdom would call that avoiding the discussion but in fact the monitors showed that blood pressure, breathing and such dropped and they continued the discussion. A different example didn't sound as bad at first but the couple ended up throwing in put-downs of the other person. This was a relationship in trouble.
I am a Linux geek who married a literary bookworm and after nine years I can say that it's good. We have a 5-year-old who thinks all computer programs involve Penguins and who hides under her covers with a flashlight so she can read. There are amusing moments that highlight our different backgrounds. Friends of ours named their boat "Prufrock". I googled it. She just started reciting the poem from memory.
Best wishes for a long and happy life together.
~~~~~~~
"You are not remembered for doing what is expected of you." - Atul Chitnis
Everyone says communication is key, but what I'm not hearing is communication about expectations. You really need to know what your SO's and your own expectations are and make any compromises in advance that you can. Know that your expectations & compromises WILL change.
1. Who is expected to do chores? Which chores? Cooking, cleaning, mowing, shopping, oil changes, etc. Is one of you expecting to be able to give "HoneyDo" lists to the other? Who cleans the bathroom & to whose standards?
2. Finances. Who budgets? who pays bills? What money is common and what money is not? Does one, or both of you get an allowance of personal money? Who decides how to spend discretionary money? Do you budget vacations in advance? if ONE of you controls the budget, be careful not to allow this to become a dominance thing.
3. Asthestics. Who picks cars, couches, pictures, carpet, etc? Whose decor is it and why?
4. Physical. Do you expect your partner to stay the same shape/fitness? What happens if time/work/children make this not allowable?
5. Children. Yes, No, NEVER, Maybe. When? Who decides? Oopsy, I know we decided "Yes in 2 years but ..". Upbringing. Good cop/bad cop? So very unfair to the "bad cop".
6. Private time? Friend Time? Date time? Private/personal space?
Expectations and the managing thereof are some of the most crucial ingredients in making a marriage viable. And I guarantee you both have some expectations that you don't even realize you have so you to start discussing the ones you know about, especially the ones you think are a "given".
-- More Smoke! The mirrors aren't working!!!
I also think parts of Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages book and ideas are useful, in that you end up with a profile of your and your mate's needs and how they match/mismatch. Mismatched needs can result in huge problems. The key is attitude, and that is worth a long, hard look. Do you feel that your mate deserves to have their needs met in the ways they need them? Does (s)he feel that way about you? How strongly? How high a priority is that to each of you? If it isn't a very high priority and the two of you are poor matches, then you might need to rethink your plans. If you're good matches, then unless one of you is too self-centered, you'll instinctively be able to fill each other's needs. If not, then think about how much trouble it'll be to fill your mate's. Don't write off your own needs, either. You never know when you might become more needy than you are presently and become resentful that your mate won't give you what you need. It's really not about what either of you wants, it's about what you'll each need throughout your lives. Consider areas where you mismatch (at least visit the website, fivelovelanguages.com, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater; there's good stuff there, even if you find a lot that turns you off) and explore whether one is willing to expend effort to give the other what they need and try to learn to enjoy doing it when it's NOT presently something they like doing. No, not "willing to", but WANTING to. "Willing" is not enough. It connotes "yeah, yeah, I'll do all that stuff." What you really need is "yes, I want to do those things." Beat that dead horse, because it's going to be central to some problems down the road. One other thing... some people do OK by getting a need filled externally. As long as it works for the needer and is definitely OK with the mate, this seems reasonable. But be careful: you might start wondering why you're married if you're getting too many of your needs filled elsewhere. I'm not a counselor, this is stuff I've learned during 24 years of marriage, often the hard way. Do some other comparisons, too. Take the Myers-Briggs and compare your types. Take the Enneagram and compare results. Best of luck.
"Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Love-You-Want-Couples/dp/0805068953 29 years and counting
but if they never tell you the sex sucked, it will continue to suck until they get sick of it and cheat on you. It's a lot better to give and take constructive criticism.
Likewise you can acknowledge weight gain. Hopefully you can also acknowledge that it doesn't matter to you because you love your wife, right?
Small lies only mask problems. But you also have to understand your partner to be honest and open. For instance, when someone asks if something makes them look fat, they might really be asking "do you still find me attractive"? answering a question not asked is sometimes a good idea too when the truth is less than great.
Honestly, sex in a shower completely sucks compared to sex almost anywhere else in the house. You're cramped, the water makes really weird sounds when you thrust, it's hard to get a good position (although for a while in college I started weightlifting just so we could try more lift-type positions in the cramped shower stall). And the water usually gets cold before you're done.
In a long term relationship, there are myriad advantages to intimacy that doesn't involve sex at all. Just hanging out, cuddling, and maybe a few quick massages help keep your relationship balanced and centered.
Then everything seems to make a lot more sense.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Ok, all these guys who are telling you self help books are useless are mostly right. There's one book that will help you both. It's cheesy, and stupid, and totally right about girls. It's called "Women are from Mars, men are from Venus". You don't even need to read the whole thing, just the chapters about how to *listen* during an argument, and what women expect in those situations.
It'll save your ass over, and over, and over again!
Congrats, and good luck making it work in your marriage!
Marriage is da bomb with the person you love. You'll never know a high that's greater in your life, imho. But you can also have the lowest lows too. I married the man that was my equal in hundreds of ways, and I still love him even now. But communication was never really there, and I missed the signs. From the day we met we were attracted to one another, but he was showing signes of running from the moment we met. I didn't see that communciation. I wish I had. For he has run away from me, as fast as his selfish legs will take him. He didn't know how to communicate when things didn't fit in his mind. I kept things bottled up, he hid his feelings, and in the end he destroyed them, dropped a feeling bomb and ran.
Marriage is hard work, don't let anyone tell you different, you've receive a lot of good advice from lots of /.'ers, and they have provided some great wisdom. The books you've read also provided you lots to consider. But don't let all of this cloud your life with your spouse. Honesty is easy when you have good things to say, but it's not when the info is less than pleasant. Find your communication niche with your spouse. Make it work for you two, try different methods, and if you two truely are committed to each other, you will be able to work through almost anything and find an acceptable accord.
Key words to remember... Honesty, communication, trust, compassion, faithful, LOVE.
Hope you have a adventurous and wonderful life together.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
Another geek marriage here, my wife and I are both CS IT professionals.
Good stuff:
- You have someone to talk to about similar subjects
- You don't fight over what TV and movies to watch (SCI-FI)
- A LOT less drama and fighting over stupid stuff
Not awesome stuff:
- You have to take turns on the computer or game system since your wife knows how to use it too
- After work if your spouse has the same job, he/she can ask you for help
- She doesn't read cosmo so she's not constantly trying to figure out what kind of sex you want
There really hasn't been any really "BAD" stuff, and funny how life works we have started to fall into more macho and girly roles over the years, especially after having kids.
Hmm...lots of people giving advice...
First off, congratulations - may your marriage be long and happy.
Second, I'm not married, but I got to the point of proposing once. She said no...and the reason amounted to one thing. So, I'm just going to tell you what our mistake was, and advise that you don't repeat it.
She had one vision for what the relationship would be, and I had another. Neither one of us just left it alone to be what it was. And that's what ensured it died a slow death. We loved each other a great deal, but that didn't save us from our own manhandling of it.
So, as I said, congratulations, and don't make my mistake.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
Oh, and there are only two difficult years in marriage -- the first and the current.
Of course they should tell you the sex should be improved, just you know ... timing is everything.
Then again, telling your partner the sex is bad because their penis is too small is probably less than productive in creating a better sexual experience for anyone.
Prepare for the likelihood of Autism Spectrum Disorder children. If I knew that was in the offing I wouldn't've married a geek.
Victoria's Secret seems to endorse couples checking the clothing together. I can't count how many times the sales women will ask if I wanted to join my (now) ex-fiance in the dressing room to see the fit, color, shape, etc of the articles she was trying on. Even if it was just a bra. Definitely good stuff, but just try to keep the hormones in check...
I don't mean to sound cold and cynical - but I am, so that's the way it comes out.
The secret is playing ONLY cooperative games with her. Never, and I mean NEVER play deathmatch with your girl. Women often think frags in games carry a "secret" message, as if you'd really wanted to kill her... Specially if you happen to use a chainsaw and scream "DIE B1TCH!!"
A mate will totally understand that it's a game, your fiance will never do it.
You need to take up a sport.
She needs to get a cheerleading uniform.
Really, it will make you both happier.
I agree with you. Basic NLP is quite ok, but all more advanced stuff is crap. I wouldn't pay for seminars either, waste of cash. I'd like to go to see Bandler, as he's like a stand-up comedian, but that's another story. But some introductory books will not make things worse for sure. Some parts of NLP are actually useful - ways of categorising people, Milton model, presuppositions. Not to be used to force your will on somebody, but to understand the dynamics of discussions.
I cannot agree with you that all NLP is equal to horse shit. I had something like Milton model and presuppositions during Language Logic classes (vocabulary logic, not IT one). It used to be called differently, but the idea was exactly the same. Yes, at some point of time Bandler & Co went way over the top with some stuff, but some is actually based on science (to variable degree of word "science"). Also important thing is to understand is that it is not 100% infallible. We're talking humans here. That's where I strongly disagree with NLP practitioners, as they claim it's THE TRUTH.
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
Your wife should know better than to ask questions she doesn't want answered. That's just not fair.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I would also add that when you're wrong, admit it. When she's wrong, just keep your mouth shut.
Do you mind skipping happy hour with your boys to paint the mother-in-law's living room? Of course you do! BUT, you say it's no problem and do it anyway because it's the right thing to do.
No, you tell her you had plans that are important to you. You still paint the room of course. This does two things, it lets her know that her priorities are important to you too, and it gets you some good will for next time your plans conflict.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I've been married 19 years and learned a few lessons about making a successful marriage, none of which take "geekness" into account (it's not relevant). In no particular order, they are: 1) Say "I love you" out loud and in ways that your spouse will interpret as being loving (it is OK, nay, recommended, to ask "what do I do that makes you feel loved?). An author named John Lund writes about what he calls love languages to get this point across. Categories include: Doing things, saying things, spending time together, etc... 2) Be honest. The minute you start hiding things from your spouse, you are creating a problem. Don't rationalize yourself out of this, you're all smart enough to understand when you do this and why. Yes, marriage means love. It also means sacrifice of what you want, to make someone else (spouse, kids) happy. 3) Be united. This takes many forms, but boils down to: "talk with each other to make sure you're working on the same goals for the same reasons." What little I understand about women tells me that they (generally) need to feel like you understand them. All the problems you hear about with the stereotypical "bad husband" stories have this in common: the husband is ignoring the wife and being selfish about something. Husbands are men, not boys. So, be a mature, responsible man and go build a family together. Any problems you have along the way (and you -will- have some, either external or self-inflicted) can be survived if you will both stick with the core ideas I mention above. [YMMV]
Carbon_Tet
Don't sweat it. Marriage & relationship guides are just another kind of porn. They present someone's idea of perfection for you to aspire to and fail at. Every single person and every single couple is a unique combination, you just need to feel your way through it. What worked for me is: respect your differences, make space for each other and make time for each other too. Be friends. Make sure you communicate your feelings, If you really are both geeks, don't over-analyse your problems, relationships don't do logic and you will go crazy trying to work out the maths :)
Have fun - marriage is to make your life better. If it is not going to make it better - why bother?
alimony
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
Aren't we special? But truthfully, the wisdom in this oh-so-human realm of experience is millenia old, maybe even aeons old, and I doubt you and yours will find anything radically new to brag (or moan) about. Are you good people? Are you friends? Do you like kids? Can your little family unit support itself? Take it from an anti-social geek who's been there and done that — your theories evaporate like the morning dew when your first kid arrives. Suddenly, one man plus one woman fuses in a synergy with the strength of ten and all your personal boundaries and sophomoric bull about identity jump five lightyears in radius. Be honest with each other, and you will quite soon discovery mysteries and joys, pangs and regrets, you can't imagine exist.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
Foci of Earth's Elliptical Orbit
Please be gentle, mods. I'm just trying to help someone out. :)
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
Don't worry about books that you feel don't apply to you, just use common sense. Treat her with the love and respect you want her to treat you with. Love and take care of each other. Don't ever forget all the reasons you love her so much now, and don't let her forget how awesome she is. Show your appreciation for even the little things. Always back each other up, especially if/when you have kids. Be dependable for one another, but don't take one another for granted.
Ahh, this reminds me of George's marriage counselling days. The dude really saved our relationship. Nothing keeps a wife satisfied like shock and awe in the bedroom.
It really was a marked improvement over Reagan's "trickle down" strategy.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
See #1. You're not using them right ;)
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Get beyond the examples in the books. They may make references to watching football or other such sports references because a majority of readers will be able to relate to such topics. Try to figure out the underlying issues. My wife was and is thrilled that I don't get caught up in all of the sports mania that goes around, but boy can she get frustrated by my game-playing habits. Many of the examples try to get at basic, innate needs that are common to the vast majority of people of each gender. For him, it boils down to being respected. For her, it boils down to feeling loved. If he sits and watches TV all the time to the exclusion of activities she needs to feel loved (e.g., conversation, questions about her friends or her day, non-solicitive hugs), she feels unloved. If she nags him about housework or derides his interest in sports (or cars, cycles, games, his D&D group), he feels a lack of respect. When he does not feel respected, he respond to her in ways she perceives as unloving. When she perceives she is not loved, she responds less respectfully to him.
While your relationship may not fit the details of any given illustration, you can learn many lessons from some books, but you'll learn more lessons (and, imo, more significant ones) through your own experiences and through the experiences of others. Find a long-married couple and get to know them. Find out how they dealt with difficult situations. As them about what kept them together. Most will tell you that the warm fuzzy feelings can (and do) go away. They can come back, and some maintain them a long, long time, but they are not the feelings that preserve a marriage. What preserves it is the I'll-love-you-by-doing-what's-best-for-you-without-regard-for-myself kind of love that is most often viewed as commitment. It's the kind of love that says "I'll stick with you no matter what"--not because of what I get from the other person, but I'm committed to giving myself over to another.
When you have and practice that kind of love (and, yes, it takes much practice), it's hard to keep the other from loving you back. My wife and I have been married 16 years--a drop in the bucket by some standards--but that's what keeps us going. We're looking forward to the rest of our lives together, to the exclusion of all others. It's an adventure we've barely begun. Best regards as you set out on your journey!
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
ain't that the truth. in my case, it was 18 years of resentment. and then I had to pay to send resentment to college.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
I agree with you, and I'm not suggesting it's a panacea for replacing communication. Communication and compromise are both elements I've stressed.
However, there are simply times when discussion becomes irrelevant. A recent (trivial) example: working on a DIY project, we had to place stick-on vinyl tiles onto the floor in our pantry. The floor was old concrete, badly laid, and very uneven. I told my wife that we would have to level if off first for the tiles to stick properly, otherwise they'll just peel off. My wife can be impatient with such things, and she kept insisting, no, it's fine, it'll work, don't be so negative.
I was starting to get annoyed, and so was she. I kept explaining, but it just didn't matter. So, realising it wasn't worth getting worked up over, I did as she asked ("Yes, dear") ... and the tiles didn't stick properly. She admitted it, and apologised, and we then proceeded to fix the situation.
The point is, no matter how rational and logical you are, no matter how much you discuss, and work towards consensus, there will always be situations where one of you is completely irrational. Humans are like that :) And it's at times like that, that you have to swallow your pride, and do it.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
"5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other."
That might work in the 'ideal' world, but, in the real world, you do that, and she will walk ALL over you for the rest of your lives together, and a chick that can do that, won't respect you, and often, will grow tired of you and leave you.
I'm not saying be a tyrant, but, you gotta have some balls, and call the shot more often than not. Give in on the things you really don't care about, but, don't cave on things you really do care about.
I've actually tried to follow this principle, and I must agree that for the first few years I did get walked all over. I knew it, even if my wife didn't. What has been amazing to see is her turn around. We now work on putting each other first in our marriage. We work together because of this, and it strengthens every aspect of our marriage. For those nay-say individuals out there, our sex life has increased over the years and is more frequent now than it ever has been.
And if we are still in our honeymoon phase, then I hope the next 13 years are as good as the last 13 years have been.
That said, it isn't easy. Anyone telling you something different is lying to you. There are difficult times; there are times when you may feel helpless, but these are fleeting, and if you can endure those well, your marriage and your love for one another will certainly grow and mature. Work through the difficult times together, focus on each other, and have a clear goal, a long term goal, that you both want to achieve. This will give you both a sense of purpose as you walk down the path of your marital experience together.
As a FEMALE geek who met her husband via Slashdot, there are a few things which have been said over and over, but they're important.
-- You're not that good of a liar. Therefore, if something is bothering you, you can try to hide it in order to spare your partner's feelings, but bottom line, just as you're not that good of a liar, your partner isn't stupid. So just get it out, it's easier and quicker and will result in fewer hurt feelings.
-- Realize that no matter how geeky you both are, you are different. Different things cause us to be stressed, and one of the important components of a relationship is realizing what things won't cause panic in yourself but will in your spouse and proactively helping your spouse through that.
-- Most importantly, remember why you're marrying her. Not only do you have lust for her, and love for her, you LIKE her as a person. You find her beautiful, brilliant, funny. So when she's left her dirty dishes in the sink for the millionth time in favour of reading a book, shake your head and smile, because that's part of who she is. Just like how she's going to tolerate how stinky you get during your WoW binges. Yes, these things are minor annoyances, and over time, she'll realize she can do the dishes and THEN read, and you'll make sure to shower prior to that huge raid, but don't let the little things get in the way of that most important thing. There's a reason you're marrying her, because you like her, love her, feel lust for her. Don't ever forget that.
Far too many marriages fail, and while people cite many things, it often boils down to one or both partners in the marriage just plain not being NICE to the person they claim to love.
Unlike parent I am not being funny but I thought NLP was "Neuro-Linguistic Programming" not Natural Language Processing. This link gives a bunch of other options. Would studying a trip to some place in South Africa help? I doubt it.
Having been married for 21.5 years, but not to a geek, my #1 recommendation is to follow the "Platinum Rule":
"Do unto [your spouse] as you would have them do to you -- if you were them."
Without adding that last clause, the Golden Rule can become a little thin. It's arguable that the extra clause is implied in the rest of the Golden Rule but it's better to put it bluntly, out there. If you don't realize that your spouse does not have exactly the same set of thoughts, dreams, desires, wishes etc., your attempts to apply the Golden Rule will be clumsy and probably do more harm than good.
All the best to you! This is the second toughest job you'll ever love (parenting is the toughest one -- sorry military; your job is tough, too, but your deployment comes to an end, parenting doesn't).
cheers...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
LOL
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
What "social weight" are you talking about? Being expected to treat your spouse well? Being expected to be honest with your spouse? Being expected to not ignore them? I'm being dead serious, I have no clue what "social weight" you could be talking about beyond the mere things that are expected of any healthy relationship (whether it's between a parent and child, friends, people who are dating, or people who are married).
My best guess at what you're really trying to say is that one of you (or both) put the opinions / desires of other people over the opinion / needs / desires of your spouse. I used to date a girl that was everything I could ever want in a girl and then some -- and she looked at me the same. However, there was one flaw - due to the way she was raised (large family living out in the middle of nowhere in the country so they pretty much only had each other to talk to), she would always put her parents and siblings first. I was actually relieved a bit after we broke up because I knew that if we had gotten married, she would still continue to put them before me, and you can't have that in a good relationship. The same thing ended up causing issues with her older sister who recently got divorced because she allowed her family to influence her as well.
So, to sum up: If you read this and respond, I'd really like to know what "social weight" you're talking about and one of the biggest screw ups people make in a relationship is putting hobbies / work / other people before their SO.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
This book is about the life cycle of failed relationships. The path to divorce may start earlier than the wedding. Learn if some patterns apply to you. Some concepts revolve around distribution of information about the relationship among the couple. The book is not written by a psychologist who may be tempted to offer explanations, but by a sociologist who - in a curious unity of neutral, objective, indifferent yet compassionate discussion - analyzes a high number of uncouplings and highlight patterns of events and information flow. The book is thus compatible with analytical thinking, while its narration style might be interesting for the literary. Spirituality, commonplaces, broilerplate folksy advice or upbeat can-do encouragement are not found here. Considering the wealth of information, conclusions and advice are kept to precious short phrases, which is a merit of the book considering its stance and how little we know about ourselves.
http://www.amazon.com/Uncoupling-Turning-Points-Intimate-Relationships/dp/0679730028
Start talking about finances now. Get on a budget so you know exactly where you stand, with relation to expenses. Get some money saved up to take the pressure off in case something happens and its going to happen. Avoid accumulating debt as much as possible or completely if you can, its just more stress that can be avoided. If the two of you can talk frankly about money and get on the same page you can talk about anything which in turn will help with working through any trials that come along immensely.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
For most people (women or men), considerate surprises are a "good thing" [tm]
a) Random acts of kindness never hurt (flowers, etc)
b) However, too much of [a] makes it less meaningful/appreciated in the long term
c) Random acts in [a] are NOT a substitute for important events (missing an anniversary/birthday/etc)
d) Surprises for special events are often fun for both parties
e) Don't buy gifts for yourself in the guise of getting them for your SO (oddly, a lot of people do this)
Showing up from work with flowers sometimes works out nicely. Buying gold+diamond jewelry, on the other hand, will sometimes lead to a "spoiled spouse" if it's not on a special occasion :-)
Pay attention to your wife's likes and dislikes. Don't always beg off those trips to the mall as boring, but rather go sometimes and pay attention to those "what she likes but can't bring herself to buy" items. Spending time together is important. If you're going to drag her to a comic-con sometime, then at least you can go with her to Central City and hit the mall on occasion (of course if you both like comic-cons and malls then it's win-win anyhow), but paying attention to her likes/dislikes and shopping habits is often a real win because she knows you actually give a damn enough to do so...
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one.
I'm in a 7 year relationship and I'm going to refute this one. I NEVER let her win. Yes, I am a competitive person, but I also think that "letting" someone win is very insulting. I always try my best and she always tries her best. If she beats me, it's because she was better then me, not because I "gave" her that one (and vice versa). If one of us is genuinely better to the point the game is not fun, then you can usually introduce some sort of handicap (that you both acknowledge) to even things out. This goes for anything; from Street Fighter to Cranium to Golf. I don't understand people's aversion to competition.
Add to this:
It's worked for me and my wife for almost 30 years now. Good luck!
whenever I see marital advice that is equally relevant to solving the Israel/Palestine crisis, it makes me think twice about the whole idea of matrimony.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
Can't argue too much with your post, except this:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
I was once in a relationship where "never go to bed angry" translated to "let's keep talking about an issue until it's resolved, even if that means staying up all night and ruining the next two days. And oh yeah since I can totally stay up later than you and still be effective that means I get my way most times."
I think it's perfectly OK to go to bed angry and deal with a conflict later when you're both well-rested. You're married, you're not going to split over something smaller than a nuclear issue (e.g. adultery), you've got time to deal with it at a less stressful moment than 11pm.
Don't assume the fault is hers =) Usually it's because I'm being an asshat and I know it, I just can't admit it, and it pisses me off that I've argued myself into a corner. My wife and I rarely argue even on fairly small issues, literally 1 to 2 times a year. When we do it can be pretty energetic though, probably because we don't have that much practice at it.
The thing that trips my temper more than anything else is anger at myself. I'll trip it when I can't get some chunk of code to work which really ought to work. I'll trip it when I feel like I've screwed up really bad, etc. When I feel that coming on in an argument with my wife, it's not usually at her (maybe not ever, though I can't say I remember the topic of our arguments even as soon as a week later), it's at myself.
The problem is that when I cross my threshold of being able to keep it under control, I'm not going to be especially logical until the anger dissipates. So my rage will easily shift to whatever thing has caused me annoyance most recently. That is to say, I might be angry over broken code, but if my wife says, "You need to calm down," in any but the most caring sensitive and positive way, my anger will shift directly to her and the code will be forgotten. Like I said, at these times I'm not being logical. Her best course of action is to let my rage run its course and just stay out of my way until it passes.
This isn't a characteristic of myself that I'm proud of in the least. In fact it's through the above sort of logical analysis that I'm able to control it as well as I am. If there were two things that I could change about myself, it's this and my ridiculous competitive need to succeed and to win at everything (I think the two are closely related). I'm working hard on correcting both, but so far I haven't completely mastered either as eventually I have a breaking point.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
She wants to sit on your lap.
If your laptop is on your lap, she cannot sit on your lap.
Keep your geeky hobbies and interests in check - leave a significant amount of time for social interaction with each other. Oh yes, and interact with each other.
If she's reading, and looks like she will be for some time, go ahead and compute. If she puts book away, put computer away.
Also, the hardest cues to pick up on for geekboys are the "-blink- -blink- it's time to go to bed" cues. It doesn't matter that you're not tired or sleepy yet. That's the point, dolt.
Wow, bitter much? I've been happily married for 5 years now and disagree with every one of Sycodon's points.
Sex does not stop just because you get married; if you had a strong sex life while you were dating, you will have a strong sex life whilst married. You'll still have time to game and to pursue your interests, just as she will still pursue hers. Marriage, when it comes right down to it, changes nothing. It's merely a symbol that two people, who already know that they love each other and want to spend their lives together, use to let the rest of us know those facts. Marriage changes nothing.
Kids, on the other hand, change everything...
It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.
-Voltaire
Communication can not be understated. It's important to note that communication does not simply involve you talking to her, but also you listening to her. Some times we as men want to listen and fix, but sometimes she will just need a listening ear so she can unload her worries before she goes insane. Put up and shut up, because she does this for you more often then you realize.
John Gottman. He does actual research on what works: http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=17294
Well said, and this same principle transverses simply putting your wife's interests first. Never keep score.
To put it in appropriately nerdy terms, your marriage is "Co-op Life," not "Deathmatch Life." Winning = getting to the end with your partner, not beating the other person.
FWIW: My own marriage is ~8.2 years old at this point.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Weeeell, I meant staying outside the booth and have her come out when she's decent, but your way is fun too, though against store policy :)
I've never had any problems at stores. My general "policy" is that if a women's clothes store cannot be bothered to provide seating outside the change rooms for the men to sit at (and a lot don't), then I am absolutely going to be going into the booth. I'm not going to stand/walk around a store for 20 minutes looking like a twit.
The only thing you need to know for a successful marriage, regardless of personality types, is one simple phrase: "Yes, dear."
Yeah, I think that translation you describe is not an accurate representation of the intent of the axiom. It's not "always solve the argument before you go to bed," it's "always make sure your wife knows you love her, and that you're committed to working this out."
You can stop being angry over something without closing the issue. Your spouse might have a hard time with that, and that can be a problem (as it seems to have been in your case). But most of these principles only work if adherence is reciprocal. When they are one-sided, then it's an abusive relationship instead of a healthy one.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
"you patronizing remnant of the jock-cheerleader era"
You couldn't be more wrong, hated sports, hated jocks, hated cheerleaders.
Shit, she lets me win sometimes, too.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
A quick illustrative test:
If your significant other gets a promotion do you /cheer, /hug, /dance and tell your love how awesome they are and how much they deserve it
a) feel inadequate or jealous
b) sulk, blow off, belittle or otherwise diminish the accomplishment
c)
If you select a or b, your relationship is likely doomed. C is where it's at.
Yep -
Rule 1: She is always right, you are always wrong.
Just simply say "Yes dear" and move on.
Rule 2: See Rule 1
Rule 3: How did you get here??? Go back to Rule 1 NOW!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Also, she doesn't want to hear a simple "I'm sorry." That could mean "I'm sorry that you're mad, but I have no idea why you're mad." You need to add a verbal proof to your conclusion. "I'm sorry. I know you feel taken for granted when I don't call to say that I'm going to be late. I know that you worry when I don't arrive when I say I will." Don't feel compelled to add, "But I feel the same when you don't call, and you don't see me having a fit." That's not helpful.
I told my wife that if she wants something done, to leave me a note when she goes to work by the coffee machine.
... What about if you have been drinking?
I'll expand a little.
I work nights, she days. I make the coffee when I go to bed, she gets up to a nice smell, hot java and kisses me before she leaves.
When I get up (I know this is heresy, but it's the breaks) I microwave the coffee and if there is a note it will be the first thing I see.
If she drops hints about things I will have forgotten about them completely by the time my standby cycle is over, and she will be pissed that I didn't do them.
I read the note these days and intersperse the work that needs to be done with my afternoon's rest/games/chores before going to work later.
Another point about the "never go to bed on an argument" idea
I know a lot of readers are American and several may be from California. It is highly unfashionable to get drunk in certain circles, but we're English, we get VERY drunk sometimes.
In some circumstances you have to remember that if you're in no fit state to communicate your muddled thoughts, you should choose discretion over valour and go the hell to bed with a "yes, you're right, good night" and then approach the subject obliquely the next day.
My two pence.
Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
I really don't think the fact that both of you are geeks has anything to do with it. As many others have pointed out you are simply replacing one set of potential issues with another (ie. watching football all sunday vs playing games all sunday -- the underlying problem is the same).
What I haven't seen anyone mention is that just because you are married doesn't mean you get to stop trying. You *MUST* continuously "date" your wife. Whatever it is that you did to get her to agree to marry you in the first place... keep on doing... if that means flowers and chocolate and nice dinners out, do it. If it means setting aside time to read books she likes, do it. If it means joint sessions of WoW, do it. Marriage doesn't give you a free pass to your relationship.
The other thing I would say is that you two can make a choice right now. Are you going to work through your issues (you *WILL* have them) and be open with each other? Or are you going to keep the divorce card in your pocket just in case. My advice... toss the divorce card out the window and be willing to work through your issues no matter what. And before everyone jumps on me, I do realize that divorce is sometimes necessary -- but getting a divorce because he plays too much WoW isn't one of them. The bigger problem there is that you won't have learned anything. Why did I play WoW so much? Why did I let him play WoW so much? What is the underlying issues? Co-dependence, passive agressive, depression? You've got to solve those or you'll be back in the same boat the next time around.
I read an article about a study that took unhappy couples. Some broke up. Some got counseling and worked through it. Five years later 75% of those that stayed together were "more happy". Only 25% that broke up were "more happy". (my numbers are off, but you get my point).
I've been married 12 years..
I have to agree with all your points except for the money thing.
You never want to lose your own identity in a relationship and combining the money starts to do that. When I make big purchases I still confirm it with her, but the reply is usually "do what you want. It's your money" or "Are you sure you really need to be getting that" So it's more of a sanity check from my best friend rather than asking for permission, but keeping the money separate helps us to keep our identities.
This is the second comment I've seen that has said this. There is a "submit article" link on the left of the screen. If you don't like the articles, don't read them. If you can't submit your own, don't bitch about the ones thet ARE submitted.
Free Martian Whores!
My husband and I met in Unix class. Since then he has remained a true geek, and I have admitted that I was just a poser. Geek couples have a big advantage: they can tap into that "troubleshooting" vibe when things get intense... ignore your emotions ask questions, and leave them open talk in hypotheticals just keep exploring use your geek intuition
Yes, yes yes! Girls talk about problems because they want to talk about them. Guys talk about problems when they are looking for a solution.
For me, it's difficult to know when she's looking for advice or just talking. I try to engage her in these situations and find out if she has a plan for dealing with it. It means I'm being interested in what she has to say, which shows her that she's not just talking to a blank wall. It also means that when she has a solution in mind, I can just let her get it off her chest, and when she's looking for a solution, I can try to help.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
This is a decent first year marriage list, but as with all things, there are shades of gray that develop the longer you are with someone.
1: Never go to bed angry. Actually, never go to bed angry at your spouse -- you can be pissed off at the dog all you want; just make sure they know you aren't pissed at them.
2: Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. This is a good statement followed by mushy crap. Instead of saying variations of, "I love you," actually try doing something with her. Go for a walk, catch a movie, cook dinner together, etc.
3: Never say the word divorce. Unless you guys are discussing ways to get tax breaks... (this goes back to the whole, "Laugh Your Way to a Good Marriage" thing someone mentioned above)
4: Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Let me sum this up: "Agree that you can walk away from an argument."
5: Always put your wife first. This is true up until they stop putting you first. This is a point of mutual respect and once that respect is lost for whatever reason, you need to sit down together and get it back. For example, you're a gamer, she isn't. Invariably she *will* get you to stop playing games and do something like watch TV instead. This is a breakdown of this rule on both sides -- if you're a gamer, there is nothing wrong with that, but there needs to be compromise from both parties. It can't be all one-sided.
And two of my own additions:
6: It's almost more important that you *LIKE* each other than love each other. The moment you stop liking your spouse is the moment you start going downhill.
7: Compromise. You have to if you want to stay together. This dove-tails nicely with #6 here.
I just don't get... eh, ugh... never mind. This post wasn't worth the research I put into it.
Not only that, but someone who thinks that there are differences between his impending marriage and "jock marriages" suggests to me that he's not even mature enough for marriage yet. I mean, I realized jocks and nerds aren't so different when I was about 18. I know that's heresy on /., but surely there must be other people who have risen beyond such divisions. I hear the Independent movement has grown in prominence. ;)
What does the submitter expect, that a nerd's wife disagreeing about who gets to use the gaming rig is going to be any more or less heated than a jock's wife disagreeing about whether he should get to go clubbin'? Yeesh. I mean, what is a jock marriage anyway?
There are two types of (for love) marriages in this world: those that should happen and those that shouldn't. Jock and nerd qualifiers don't help anything. Additionally, is the submitter implying that nerds are betas? That's stereotypical and offensive. Intelligence does not make you submissive.
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
The reason that is insightful is because in a relationship most arguments are not about facts - they are about feelings. If you "win" an argument over feelings, you are basically saying 'your feelings are worth less than mine'. It's ok to stand your ground when it is truly important but for $diety's sake, pick your battles. Do NOT let your ego get in the way of what's really important to you, which *should* be each other. You are going to fight from time to time but why fight over anything you don't really care about? It is ok to point out to your wife that her behavior has hurt your feelings and, believe it or not, most women respond very well to such an admission. If you know you aren't being rational but you feel strongly about some non-critical thing anyway, acknowledge that and *ask* for your spouse to cut you some slack. Usually they will unless you are really being ridiculous.
Some other stuff:
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
I've known my wife for 20 years. Yeah, there's more than a little truth in it - but not for the reason people think. Argue the facts but take great care when arguing feelings. Most guys seem to have trouble separating the two.
1) Money. The largest contributor to failed marriages. How are you going to deal with it? One bank account? One each? Three (two personal accounts and a shared account for shared expenses)? Remember that it's important for each of you to be able to spend some discretionary money on things like coffee, lunch and a more substantial amount on gifts. No one likes to have to ask for money each week. And do you really want to have to ask for $200? "What do you need it for?" "Oh, I wanted to get you those earrings you wanted as a surprise birthday gift." Discuss how you are going to deal with major expenses. If you buy a house, are you going to spend every last bit of your discretionary income to get the fancier house? Or are you going to not exceed 30% of your income so that you still have some breathing room? How much will you save every month? What if someone wants to go to school or quit work to take care of a baby? These are the things that kill a marriage later. E.g. Couple buys expensive house. Can't afford to save any money. Husband continues to charge expensive toys for himself because he feels "poor" if he doesn't. Wife is exasperated. Husband must work overtime every chance he gets, so he feels exasperated too. Both wonder if they married the right person.
2) Kids. Don't say you want them if you don't. Be honest now or miserable later. How do you want to raise them? Do you want a parent to be able to stay home and raise them? Are you willing and able to make those sacrifices? When do you want to have them? Are you willing to spend thousands of dollars for fertility treatments if necessary? How will you discipline them? What kind of schooling? Will you raise them in a religion? Discuss this issue thoroughly and honestly.
3) Communication. Others have already said this one, but it is huge even if cliched. If you can't talk about things opening and honestly with each other, one or both of you are doomed to misery. Hopefully you already have this down if you're affianced, but lots don't. You've got to be able to bring up difficult topics with your spouse and have to know that your partner will be able to listen objectively and discuss rationally with you. If you're afraid to bring up a topic because of you're partner's reaction, that's bad and a potential trouble spot waiting to erupt. Likewise, if there are any topics that you have an unshakeable position on, you'd better be sure that your partner really agrees with you and isn't just afraid to disagree. At some point something (like a child) may make her stick up for her own beliefs which end up diametrically opposed to yours. This usually ends badly.
Wait, did you drop bombs on Herraq?
I said this above and I'll say it again:
"Don't go to bed angry at your spouse."
By all means, go to bed angry at the fucking dog...
I just don't get... eh, ugh... never mind. This post wasn't worth the research I put into it.
They all sound like little things but figuring them out ahead of time heads off potential conflict.
I can say [REDACTED] anytime I want!
And lastly do not hint at something unless you really really don't care if you get the desired result. Expecting someone else to understand if they really loved you is just plain idiotic. When you hint around at something you are setting your partner up for failure. It'll frustrate you and them when it doesn't work out so just politely ask for what you want and say what you feel and think when it's appropriate to do so, but do not hint.
I'd like a blowjob, is all I'm saying...
I just don't get... eh, ugh... never mind. This post wasn't worth the research I put into it.
I've always said that a couple should appear as an indivisible unit in public. They should strive never to disagree in public, but only ever in private. But that's just old fashioned me. It's hard to do, but it sure is useful.
Things taste better when reheated on the stove or oven, and taste differently to some degree when reheated or cooked in the microwave.
The most common reason for that is the Maillard reaction. Microwave cooking has its uses but it rarely improves the taste of anything you cook.
Act like an adult. Both of you. All the time. Everything else is a variation of that. Don't be an asshole. Don't ignore your spouse. Don't put your wants ahead of their needs. Communicate. Don't spend money you both need for something that matters. Whatever.
Act like an adult. All the time. That's it.
Why the hell anyone would ever need a class to teach them this is beyond me.
bullshit. If this has been your experience, you're doing it wrong. Nahdudes post was dead on -- relationships are about putting more into it then you might get back, and if both people approach it with that attitude, more people would have happier marriages. I've been married for 15 years, and my home life is terrific.
While it might be more efficient, I imagine that like many things, something non-nuked will taste much better (at least to my tastebuds, and I imagine quite a few others') than something slow cooked.
I don't know why that is, exactly, especially for things that you wouldn't think it matters for, but it seems to be pretty consistent. So, that could be what she's on about, there.
In my experiences, you're absolutely right that many guys feel a need to "be looked up to" - but that's sort of irrelevant, when it comes to figuring out some sort of formula for "relationship success". (EG. I think it's perfectly possible to have a relationship where both partners are essentially "equals", yet both look up to each other -- perhaps for very different reasons.)
Whether you're a guy who has a strong need to feel like your partner "admires some aspect of your personality" or not, you simply need to be paired up with a woman who has similar goals to yours, so you can work as a "team" getting through the "business of life". It's a difference in basic priorities that seems to destroy most marriages. (If the guy, for example, is putting in a lot of hours at work, with a "goal" of ensuring financial security for the family -- problems will develop if the woman doesn't value that goal. Maybe she'd prefer the guy be home more often to "share in household chores" or to "spend more time with the kids"? Or by the same token, if the woman is the primary wage-earner, the guy has to share in the idea that her working those hours adds more "value" to the relationship than having things a different way. Sometimes, I think it's not REALLY even as simple an issue as the man being upset because she "out earns" him and that's non-traditional.... It may be a "power and control" issue, where the primary wage-earner gets to "call the shots" about whether or not a new car is purchased, how much will be spent on going out to dinner or where/how a summer vacation is going to work, etc. etc. "He (she) who has the gold makes the rules." in other words.
Talk about money, in detail
Talk about sex, in detail
Live together first, if you haven't already.
And neither of you will change all that much, so little things you choose to ignore will become issues later.
I have been in a geek marriage for nearly 20 years.
I can kill my wife's character in a game and have she will have no hard feelings, and visa-versa.
Live together for a while if you aren't yet.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done
Yes they do... then you have to do it again. See? Sometimes being honest is good!
You bet your ass I do... of course, this means I'm the "Best Friend" who goes on clothes shopping trips now, though...
I just don't get... eh, ugh... never mind. This post wasn't worth the research I put into it.
I'll also take this apart:
:-}
:-}
:-)
:-}
1. Sex stops
It was the Pill that did that with my wife. Now she's taken herself off it, I'm the one who has trouble keeping up.
2. She get's[sic] fat (probably you too)
So what? Fat fun...
3. All your money starts disappearing for no apparent reason.
"Your" money? In my experience, couples who refuse to share finances tend to be running towards trouble. In any case, there's an easy way around that. Just be a spendthrift, and don't discourage her from doing likewise. After all, shrouds don't have pockets.
4. You will be surrounded by strange and insufferable relatives from some place you have never heard of.
Easy. Just move to some place they have never heard of.
5. You will get to drive the old car.
Well, then get a really old car that's fun to drive.
6. Gaming did you say? That won't last long.
Well, you should get out more anyway. And there are always more good books to read than you have time for...
7. She will start asking you if she looks fat
Just say "Yes dear".
8. She won't cook
That's something you set yourself up for. If you spontaneously take on the cooking roughly 50% of the time without being prodded, or voluntarily share the cooking, it should "Just Work(TM)".
9. You will have to leave the house when her literary friends come over...
You could always learn to read.
10. LAN parties? No Fucking Way in her house!
You've never seen my wife and her friends with their laptops at breakfast-time gas-bagging on Facebook...
Don't worrry about the "geek" part. Worry about the marriage part. When I first got married, we were so happy with each other that we tried to accomodate each other in all kinds of ways. However, the willingness (and perhaps ability) to maintain a change contrary to your nature is hard. You (plural) may find yourself slipping out of agreed-upon changes back into old habbits - or compromise habbits - with the result that "settled issues" become unsettled. I'm not sure I can offer anything more than that. I was married for 14 years when my wife decided that her latent lesbianism meant that she couldn't live with me anymore. While I was married, I'd been struggling to maintain personal changes so much that I delegated much of my judgement about social and family things to her, and prioritized those above all else. The divorce was a terrible shock. Since then, by depending solely on my own judgement - no longer delegating it - I've been much happier. So, I'm not sure I can offer much more advice than what I've given directly and by example.
Not sure a pre-nup is a good "must have" unless there was already a severe imbalance in finances when you got married. Otherwise, if you don't trust this person to pull half their weight in the relationship (and thus deserve half the "stuff" at the end), why are you marrying them?
Separate bank accounts *are* a good thing, although for a different reason - it's important for each of you to have your own credit rating and history. Not just in case of divorce, but accidental death and other nasties.
I am in a happy geek marriage at the moment so here's the best advice I can give (which is based on the best practices of my field).
Always make sure you have your design done before you begin implementation.
Meaning, make sure you guys discuss how you want your marriage to work before you actually get married. This includes, but is not limited, division of money (joint or separate bank accounts? what purchases are family and what are personal), division of chores (who cooks, who cleans, who calls for Chinese take out), where you both want to be in five years (in terms of career, locations and living space) and what future additions you want to make (pets, children, etc).
There's a lot of excitement in the impending union but if you're not looking a few years down the road, then when you get there, you're going to have problems. My husband is Catholic so we had to go through pre-cana which was mostly about how to live as a unit of two rather then living solo. Most of what we learned, I mentioned above. It's not just about far reaching goals (like I want a house or I want 2.5 cats/dogs/kids), it also is the day to day stuff that you do that now gets done with someone else by your side.
Money is usually the biggie (we have a joint account and separate personal accounts and divide our direct deposits from work among them) but it'll make your future together a lot easier if you actually think about it now.
Where are we going? AND WHY AM I IN THIS HANDBASKET!?!!
I've got a problem with lists like this - they do point you in the right direction, but they don't tell you *why* you want to go that way.
First, my credentials. Me, a PhD in chemistry, but I write scientific software for a living. Her, dual BS in Computer Science and Applied Math and a masters in Electrical and Computer Engineering, and a job in the aerospace industry. We lived together for nine years and we've been married for 3. We're about as geeky a couple as you are likely to find -- and that has almost nothing to do with our relationship. It does influence our favorite topics for conversations, but not much else.
Your relationship isn't going to be like any other. Not because you are geeks, but because it involves two unique individuals. There will be 'rules' that you learn to play by, but they won't be my rules, or the parents rules, or the rules that people who have been together for 50 years play by.
Think of a relationship like a box - an empty container to start. You can fill it by giving of yourself, or you can take from it what your partner has contributed. You'll do both at various times, but remember this - too much take and not enough give from either party will empty it back out, leaving one or both of you very unhappy and wondering where you went wrong.
How you fill it is up to you - find out what is important to your partner, and make an effort for her. If she cares about you, she'll do the same. Lists like the parent made are good places to start, but don't stop with other people's advice - figure out what really matters to your wife.
You won't get everything exactly right all the time, but if you've built a trusting, loving relationship, and kept the box full, you'll get past the rocky patches without major injury to either party. For example, early in my relationship, my wife was sometimes too subtle about what she really wanted. I wouldn't catch the hints, and she'd end up very upset and I'd end up clueless and hurt. After it happened a couple of times, I finally just asked her to do a very simple thing for me. If it was a really important topic, I asked her to say 'This is really important'. She doesn't play that card very often, but when she does, I swallow my arguments and do my best to accommodate her request. I wasn't meeting her needs because I didn't know what they were. We are both much happier since we started doing that, and those requests are becoming more infrequent, because we are learning to recognize each others needs better.
That's what works for us, but find your own way. If you are both willing to work at getting it right, your marriage can be the best thing that ever happened to either of you.
-V-
Who can decide a priori? Nobody.
-Sartre
This is not cynical... really.
As someone currently going through a divorce (mostly amicable), I have come to the conclusion that starting at the end can be very instructional. Sit down and write your separation agreement. Who gets what part of the pension/401k/RRSPs etc. Who gets the house, does the house get sold? Who gets spousal support and with whom will the children live. Set aside $20,000 for lawyers if you have a small agreement and set aside $50,000 and 4 years for big disagreements. And yes, this is money that you will never see again, and gains you very little.
Write down moving restrictions around children, this means that you probably can't easily leave the city you separate in because it is unlikely that your children will want your near, and you will want to be near your children.
Set aside an extra $20,000 dollars for extra transportation since you won't be sharing a vehicle any longer.
If you make more than your spouse, how much will you pay in spousal support. Look forward to a dramatically reduced lifestyle, since about 1/2 of your pay will no longer be yours for at least the first year of separation and couple of years of spousal support.
Set aside money for your mid-life crisis. It really doesn't matter how much, but make sure it is a percentage of your current gross, and expect you both to spend it between your 34th and 44th years.. say 10% of gross for four years. This is valid for those getting a divorce or not.
Set aside now, $4000/year for couples/your counseling to help you deal with the grief of the failed relationship/ job/ life you will experience.
And finally, write up a prenuptial agreement with a lawyer now. Both of you. Pay a lawyer to help you both write it. Marriages are expenses, divorces are an endless expense, know the risks.
Oh.. and Congratulations!! *throws rice*
p.s. If you read this and say "oh.. this doesn't apply to us" think again.
Q. What is Calvin's monster snowman called? A. The Torment Of Existence Weighed Against The Horror of Non Being
Gottman does actual, scientific research on marriages. He provides "evidence-based" advice, and it's vastly different than your average self-help book. I learned about him from my father, a marriage and family therapist... my wife and I haven't had any really serious trouble in the 14 years we've been married, and I credit Gottman's books with a big part of that.
One of the counter-intuitive things Gottman says is that contrary to most advice books, "good communication" isn't necessary for a happy marriage. If a husband and wife don't respect each other, "good communication" will just enable them to communicate their disdain more effectively. And he found plenty of happy couples who had terrible communication by regular self-help standards. It's fascinating stuff.
Two bits of advice:
My wife has a master's degree in counseling and insisted we go to couples counseling, even before we were engaged. She assumed we had problems even though we were both happy. In hindsight it was the smartest thing we could have possibly done, and I recommend it to everyone because we learned how to fight. You're going to "fight", but it doesn't have to turn into a fight. Learn to recognize when emotions are overriding logical thought. If she "just doesn't get it", perhaps you're saying it wrong, and vice-versa.
And learn to recognize when "it" matters more to her. She has to do the same, otherwise you never get what you want, and that's more important than you think. It might be a decision about what you want to eat for dinner or it could be that you want to spend your tax return on a vacation but she wants a new kitchen. And most importantly, if she wants to order a pizza for dinner but you're not wild about the idea, and you end up ordering pizza, she doesn't "owe" you for that unless you establish it when the decision is made. For instance, "Sure we can order pizza. Mind if we go out for beer and wings tomorrow?" It scales up.
As for finances, there may not be a universal answer. What works for us is a "joint" account and personal accounts. After the household budget is deposited into the joint account each month (plus extra for vacation and emergencies) the rest goes into our individual accounts. Believe it or not, we came up with that system after I wanted to buy her a surprise. I knew she would think it was too expensive and it's not much of a surprise when it shows up on your bank statement. We both get to shop without constantly feeling like we have to get it approved first.
Here you go,
http://miscellanea.wellingtongrey.net/2007/08/27/wellington-grey-gets-married/
Seems exactly the sort of thing you are looking for.
we *never* know whey they're angry. That's half the battle; getting them to clarify. ;)
Did I mention communication? I can't stress how important it is to talk.
Well, First thing I'd say to you is to stop stereotyping. What you have is two people. Whatever flaws these books have, if they stereotype, then that's not really worth your time.
One of the most useful books about family communication models, is "PeopleMaking" by Virginia Satir. Yes: she has kind of a whacko hippie mentality, with utopian fantasies about how proper communication between people can save the world. But, that's just one of the chapters, and most of the rest of the book is solid, research-backed information on communication structures, and modes, and how to avoid pitfalls.
One strong caution: if one or both spouse's is an abuse victim, or has codependency or other personality issues, fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment, then no book will help you. A lot of what goes wrong in communications is caused by unhealthy coping mechanisms for insecurity, fear, and guilt, and these coping mechanisms are often habits that are very difficult to overcome. The troubled person needs to see a licensed therapist - and learn how to share vulnerable feelings and trust their partner, and themselves.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I have a pretty high tolerance for clothes shopping, but it's starting to get annoying sometimes as my girlfriend promises boobies and I keep getting kicked out of her booth before the door is even closed. The employees who do this are always rude, too, firing me a dirty look as though I'm walking off the street trying to get a quickie fuck and not just trying to get a little boobage happiness to make a loooooong annoying walk through the store looking for clothes worth it. Victoria's Secret just flat out told me that men are not allowed near the fitting room sections at all. *sigh*..
Scorta futuere amo!
People don't come with instruction manuals. You might actually have to listen to one another. :)
I personally don't see a reason to ever get married. I mean, unless you're gonna have kids, why strap yourself down to just one girl for the rest of your life, with the "get out of jail" penalty of losing half of what you own.
Now, as I get a bit older...I'm not getting new girls as often as I used to. I actually have a few that I consider my steady relationships. Some out of state even...but, I'm never with just one for any long length of time...that way, it never gets boring. While I love them to death, I do find that my favorite thing with this set up is...they leave to go home eventually. I can't stand being cooped up with any one person for too long a period of time. As much as I love their company to run around, go out, fsck, etc...I enjoy my alone time too when they leave.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I've been married 16 years.
My Advice...don't get married. It's a trap.
What happens when you get married:
1. Sex stops
For us it's better than ever. Sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. These days she wants it more than me.
2. She get's fat (probably you too)
She wasn't exactly thin to start. But I gained almost 100lbs over the first 10 years, then I lost 60 of that. It's a fact of life though. You both get older. She has children. Many people gain weight... even if they're not married. If fitness matters to you, then make it continue to matter and be with someone who cares about it also.
3. All your money starts disappearing for no apparent reason.
I'm the bad one here. She's brutally practical and laughs at women with 100 pairs of shoes and $500 hand bags. It's not uncommon for my wife to give the cashier a 1" thick stack of coupons and save 50% on the groceries.
4. You will be surrounded by strange and insufferable relatives from some place you have never heard of.
Her family is nuts, but mine is worse.
5. You will get to drive the old car.
For my wife, a car is a toaster. As long as it's reliable, she doesn't care. I drive a 1 year old 350Z.
6. Gaming did you say? That won't last long. "I can't believe you are going to play on the computer AGAIN. You just played last week!"
I just started playing Oblivion for the second time through (This time as a mage). My wife likes the game consoles because it gets me out of the computer room and the kids like to watch. She does get jealous of the computer. But i told her to come in and interrupt me any time she feels that way.
7. She will start asking you if she looks fat, despite the fact she is perfectly aware of #2
My wife never asks me this. I think she's very aware of what she looks like.
8. She won't cook (See #1) and she won't be able to make a decent dinner.
ok, you got me there. up until the last couple years, my wife couldn't cook to save her life. But recently she's gotten a lot better. I talked up the idea of how cooking is all about heat transfer vs time and how it's bad to be distracted, then she quit burning things. I have three teenage daughters though and they all cook better than my wife. So it's a non-issue now.
9. You will have to leave the house when her literary friends come over to discuss the life analogies in some gay French author's book.
We have common friends and interests.
10. LAN parties? No Fucking Way in her house!
I haven't had a lan party in years (since doom and quake time) but she didn't seem to mind back then.
Marriage: you're doing it wrong.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
. . . or, How to be a codependent in 5 easy steps.
Your theory assumes that a woman (gasp!) would NEVER do anything so crass as to lie or manipulate, or take advantage of a guy who is so "nice".
NEVER take the word "Divorce" off the table. (and NEVER marry without a prenup! - this is not a reflection of you, this is a necessity of today's legal climate. Period) Unilateral disarmament is a guarantee of slavery. Divorce should ALWAYS be an option, should ALWAYS be on the table. Respect yourself, respect your own boundaries. It's not selfishness.
Even the flight attendants tell you: put your own oxygen mask on first, then assist others.
Last bit of advice: Nobody can love another person if they do not love themselves.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Do not taunt happy fun wife.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Have you ever read Stranger in a Strange Land, perchance? I figure you'd like it.
Having been a SlashDot addict for many years, I expect that many of us here have various forms of ADHD or ADD. You may find that ADHD has interesting impacts on the dynamics of a marriage, most of which are not good. One of the prime challenges arises when the ADHD partner "hyperfocuses" on the non-ADHD spouse during courtship. This is similar to the "hyperfocus" we all have for the "new" game we just bought. In ADHD relationships, that "hyperfocus" usually disappears, right at the start of the actual marriage. The non-ADHD spouse then feels abandoned and betrayed, while the ADHD spouse remains clueless to the challenges faced by his/her partner, and the communications breakdown is exacerbated by some of the other ADHD symptoms. If you want examples of some of the horror stories (and the surprising similarities in many of these challenging relationships), and some great tips for avoiding or recovering from a disastrous relationship, go see the forum section of the adhdmarriage.com http://www.adhdmarriage.com/ website. This affect is so significant and real, that it made it to the Dr. Phil show not too long ago http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1292/?preview=&versionID=).
(Based on my nine-year marriage to a wonderful anime geek, and observation of other couples)
Forget the books, just watch a couple of seasons of The Red Green Show.
Marriage is for people who get lonely by themselves. Relating to another human being is the whole goddamned point."
LOl...I hear ya. Just a difference in outlook on life I guess. I couldn't personally fathom having to live with one chick for years on end. In my early years...I had some decently long term relationships...5-7 years each. As I got older, (dodged marriage at least twice)...I figured what is the need for marriage? As I mentioned in another post, unless you're gonna have kids, why put yourself through it, and at the very least risk losing half your stuff?
I like having multiple girls in my life at all times. That way, I never get bored, no real arguments over anything, and the best part is, they go home at some point. Don't get me wrong, I love women to death, they are fun (and often strange thinking creatures), different insights to life, and of course sex, but, after about a good 2 weeks of close confinement with any one of them, and I'm getting claustrophobic almost.
I like my alone time too.
I find it odd how many men I've met, that are summed up by your last statement about being alone. I've never understood people that are just almost petrified of being alone at times. I've seen men get out of one bad marriage, and right back into another bad one, just because they for some reason couldn't handle living alone for a bit.
Me? I like to be able to choose when I'm around people, and when I'm not. I've got lots of friends...I easily meet people when I go out places. Like I said, I like to be in control of when I'm around people and when I can have my alone time...
I can't imagine getting into a legally binding situation just to have a friend around 'forever'. I've not often lost a friend. But I see people who marry, split and never want to speak to each other and spew nothing but vitriol. Why risk that when you can have true friends forever?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
You must be meeting the wrong people.
First of all, as natural is it is for us geeks to repel women, due mostly to intelligence and disinterest in their meterial needs, and their disinterest in ours, there are actually INTELLIGENT women out there who have been equally rejected by males, and many of them are actually quite attractive if not downright hot.
Alpha males have extreme difficulty dealing with intelligent women, as their authority is oftem trumped by logic or knowledge, and they're not fond of that.
The woman I've been with for 8 years (and married 4 ago) was generally considdered one of the hottest girls on campus. She's an education nut, and fantasy geekette. Somewhat reserved, blatantly against sorority life, and not into sports (though she enjoys watching both hockey and Football), she became attracted to our gaming group as there were few other places where groups of friendly people got together to do anything other then the above.
It took about 5 minutes of sitting her in front of a PC with Diablo II running before she was hooked, and we had her regularly playing in network games, and absorbed her into our collective. Her fantasy and reading interests melded well with the group. We started dating soon after (not my first girlfriend by any stretch btw), and eventually married.
Of the rest of the guys in the group, each had a similar experience (though not all while still in college). There's 9 core members of our original fellowship, and all of us are currently happily maried to inteligent independent women who we have great sex with, who have at least some interests in common, and who also are completely accepting to allow us our space to game (some of them game with us). They're each just as happy to involve themselves in crafts, a good book, or just socializing amung themselves when we're doing something that does disinterest them, and welcome to join when we're doing something they're into.
My wife at least was a starter cook when i met her. Some helping from my italian heritage, and her personal addiction to the food network, and now a few years later she's a competent cook who experiments a lot and regularly has something new to bring to the table. I cook about as often as she does as well.
I maintain the house, electronics, the cars, do the heavy labor in the yard, and do the basic housecleaning chores, and most of the shopping; she does the laundry, the detail cleaning (dusting, windows, etc), plans our dinner menus, and handles a bit more of the kid-related chores than i do (though I'm not far off doing half of that too). It's a nice balance and we each feel we have control over certain things. It's never "your turn" to do this or that...
Lessons learned: 1) intelligent women require being involved in decisions constantly, and must get their way at least as often as we do if not more to even feel equal on any level. However, take note that in most cases a "compromise" in no way counts as "she got her way" or "she made that decision." She must be given complete control over a process or thing on a regular basis, being responsible for all planning and decisions related to that thing. At best you might be able to suggest what color you really would hate to have something, and that might slide, but suggesting what color it should BE instantly makes that your decision, even if she agrees and makes no alternate suggestion... Mostly for us this revolves around choosing furniture, a new car, decorating, where to go on vacation, etc. In a nutshell, she now has to make all the decisions or there's an argument that we'll have about it 6 monts or more from now, and on about half those decisions, i get my way by "suggesting an alternative" or compromising to get some small part of a win for me.
In our last house, we coordiated and both selected the same floorplan we liked after looking at about 150 options. It was the only one we both had on a list of our top 3, and for both of us it was the number 1 choice. We selected curtains togethe
There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
If you get angry often, maybe there is a bigger problem.
I can't remember the last time I was angry at my wife.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Amazing how many posts mention all the same stuff and yet neglect a crucial part of any functional and fulfilling marriage. f*ck like rabbits and keep doing it no matter what. All the other advice is helpful and useful but if there is no sex, there will not be any happiness regardless of how courteous, considerate and caring you pretend to be.
"Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. "
WTF? How about marry someone who is good at things? how about don't be condescending?
Let her win, my ass.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
> 6) Let her do things her way, even if suboptimal.
I've never understood why people feel that marriage (or even just cohabitation) is a license to "fix" the habits of the other person...
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
that's never the reason for bad sex. good sex doesn't even need a penis.
I'm out of a serious relationship, and looking back I agree with the above.
I had made the mistake of literally using the ball-n-chain excuse to get out of something I myself didn't want to do. My girl was standing there when I said it. She didn't appreciate it at all. NEVER make her an excuse.
On the other side. She stopped telling me things that she knew would make me mad because she didn't want to upset me. TRANSLATION - She didn't care about me enough to deal with me being upset with her.
Relationships fail. It happens. The reason above is why we're not still friends.
I guess this really depends on how stubborn one person is. How much they believe that their partner should just "know without my telling them" what it is, they're upset about. No amount of trying to "communicate" with such a person is going to help, because they will never allow the conversation to get to THE POINT. They will dance around it, change the subject, etc. because they're maybe ashamed about asking, and assume that the partner should just KNOW.
In such situations, it does not matter if you go to sleep angry. You're basically screwed.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
If an article could be modded a 10 this would be it.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
I believe Slartibartfast in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy said 'I'd much rather be happy than right any day.'
Burn Bright or Fade Away
I'm a computer programmer married to an artist/librarian. When we got married (okay, eloped) about 14 years ago, what we did is, we looked around us and identified people who we considered to have successful marriages. And then we went to them and asked them how they did it.
Were there certain common themes? Sure there were. I'm not going to post them here, because what you really need to do is go identify people you know that you folks consider to be successful at this, and go talk to them.
"Of course they should tell you the sex should be improved,just you know ... timing is everything."
No, delivery is everything. (No pun intended.) Tell her what you liked, followed with "We should do more of that." As time goes on you can do more of the good things and drop the less enjoyable activities. With that said, a marriage is about far more than sex. A few things to remember are:
Always remember that you can hack on your Linux box anytime.
If you ignore your hobby/passion for two years it will still be there.
If you ignore your partner for two years they will not still be there.
Sometimes it is OK to go do your own thing, but plan it. (IE: Tuesday is do your own thing day.)
Always stop what you are doing when your partner speaks to you.
Sometimes you will have to do what your partner wants to do, and sometimes they have to do what you want to do.
Lastly go out and buy a copy of "How to Win Friends and Influence People." read it at least three times. Then at least once a year for the rest of your life.
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
My Advice...don't get married. It's a trap.
What happens when you get married:
1. Sex stops
2. She get's fat (probably you too)
3. All your money starts disappearing for no apparent reason.
4. You will be surrounded by strange and insufferable relatives from some place you have never heard of.
5. You will get to drive the old car.
6. Gaming did you say? That won't last long. "I can't believe you are going to play on the computer AGAIN. You just played last week!"
7. She will start asking you if she looks fat, despite the fact she is perfectly aware of #2
8. She won't cook (See #1) and she won't be able to make a decent dinner.
9. You will have to leave the house when her literary friends come over to discuss the life analogies in some gay French author's book.
10. LAN parties? No Fucking Way in her house!
If this is a serious post, based on personal experience, you married the wrong woman.
You're going to get a whole lot of "modern" advice to your question on this forum I am sure. I am a Software Engineer with a BA (and a genius IQ) and my wife is a Research Scientist with an Earned PhD. The key to your wonderful and happy marriage is the same as it would be for the jock/cheerleader stereotypes that you mention. Beyond a selfless dedication to one another you will find that your wife's highest need is security. She needs to know that you're love is unconditional and you devotion to her will be demonstrated by your finding ways to show that you cherish her. Do that and you will find out that she will put up with an awful lot of your geek-driven activities. OTOH, what you need most is respect and admiration from her. If she will be extra thoughtful to show that admiration by listening to your struggles with work, tech, etc. and mention that you are handsome and smart, etc. you will find yourself having nearly unbounded energy to find ways to do things that mean something special to her. My wife likes flowers, but never when she is mad at me (which is pretty rare). BTW, learn to be the one who apologizes first. Also the answer is ALWAYS "no that doesn't make you look fat" period. Tell her often you love her and if she ever asks you whether you still do, that is never the time for diliberation. The right answer is "yes, with all my heart". You'd be surprised how that will make her truly beautiful in your sight. Also, never fall for the "oh don't get me anything for my birthday, anniversary, etc.". They always want you to do things because you love them, not because they compelled you to do it. Start there and you'll be just fine, Geek or not.
Be More, Be Manly, The Manly Geek Ubergeek Extraordinaire Blogger: www.manlygeek.com/blog Podcaster: podcast.man
She admitted it, and apologised, and we then proceeded to fix the situation.
Should have made her do the work and you should have told her how to do it, instead of willingly participating in fixing her fuck-up. She'll think twice about being irrational next time :D
Remember to 'sudo'
Reference: http://xkcd.com/149/
I will second your disagreemnt on the bachelor party. As someone who has been married only 2 months now, I have lived through the fall-out from my bachelor party. I got in big trouble after my bachelor party. I was not unfaithful, I behaved myself. I had strippers at my party, but my fiance said she was ok with it (she had stippers at her party). The reality is, women are insecure. She says she's ok with it, but she's really not. She even thinks she's ok with it (i.e. this is not one of those tests, she really does want you to go out and have a good time), but when the reality of it all hits, she can't deal with it. But as I learned in talking to friends and colleagues who were already married, it's not just about whether you saw strippers or not. If there is one take-away to remember it is simply that no matter what happens, no matter what you do, you are going to be in the dog house the next day. You could be on your best behavior. Your bachelor party could consist of going to church. You are still going to get in trouble. You didn't do anything wrong, but you're in trouble. A colleague of mine had a fairly tame bachelor party that just consisted of going to dinner and some bars. Someone took a picture of him with another girl. His wife saw the picture and was pissed. Make no mistake, nothing happened with that girl. She was a random girl that posed for a picture, no hook-ups or anything, but he still got in trouble. The only sure fire way to not get in trouble is to not have a bachelor party at all. But what's the fun in that. This is really your last opportunity to go out and have a ridiculous night out with the boys. Mine was incredible and I know my buddies and I will be laughing our asses off about that night when we're in our eighties. But now that I'm married, I won't be striving for a repeat performance. That is a sure fire way to get yourself divorced, or at the very least a firm kick in the groin.
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
I would say that the "secret" to our marriage is having Christ at the center of it. During year seven, we almost split up and got a divorce. It was that year that we decided to get right with God and go to church. It is my firm belief that saved our marriage. Why? Because the teachings of Christ very much apply to marriage but one in particular: Selfless service.
If you want your marriage to work, you have to think of it not as a dominating man vs a submissive woman. No no no! It's more like a partnership where the both of you are back-to-back, each looking out for the other's back. You don't worry about your needs...she does that for you. She doesn't worry about her needs...you do that for her. You find ways to serve her and she finds ways to serve you! THIS is what a long-lasting and fulfilling marriage is all about!
To do this, you have to completely trust each other and communicate what you like. As the years go by, you'll KNOW what she likes and she will of you as well. The minute you start worrying about your own needs, you're on the path to divorce!
I would also counsel you to wipe the thought of other women out of your mind! You can't serve her and mess around on her at the same time! It's simply not possible. If you see a sexy woman, just don't say anything. Why? Because it's not of service to her...you'll only make her feel insecure and unloved. That's not serving her needs.
I don't know if you're a church-going person or even a Christian. However, this principle will definitely help you keep your marriage strong throughout the years. I would also advise you to consider reading some Christian literature on marriage so you get a better idea of the principles that make marriage work, even if you're not a Christian. Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of where it comes from!
I wish you and your new bride a long and prosperous life together!
Women have a duality about them, a wave (sex object) and particle (higher intelligence) duality. You must learn to see them as both. And always remember that physics solves everything.
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
Add to this:
It's worked for me and my wife for almost 30 years now.
Good luck!
Further additions...
* http://www.violentacres.com/archives/88/a-peaceful-marriage-is-not-always-5050
Agreed, and the morning makeup is always fantastic.
OK, there is a difference between lies, brutal honesty, and honesty with tact you know... As in (keeping the bad sex example):
Lie: That was mindblowing! Best sex evar!!! Nothing could be improved, you're perfect in bed, honey!
Brutal honesty: That farking sucked, I hated it, I'd rather go screw a badger than have sex like that again! Get the hell off me so I can get to my porn and I hope it's better next time!
Honesty with tact: That could have been better honey, what'd you think? Maybe if you'd moved just so... Maybe if I moved just so... Let's try this again, and figure out what works...
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
after all, she'll be doing the same for you
You sound very confident about something that is not at all assured.
As a geek husband to a nerd wife - I can personally say that traditional marriage advice isn't as much help as some might suggest. However, I've also found that it's really quite easy and very rewarding if you can quickly work out the following details...
:-)
1) Fight well. I can't stress this enough, while arguing well with normal people is certainly important - arguing well with a fellow geek is imperative. Whether you are arguing about who the better Star Trek captain is, or who should do the dishes that night - geeks have strong opinions on all things that are generally based on well thought out logic. Chances are, in most situations you are both right according to your viewpoints. Learning to fight in a way that acknowledges that the fight is about a difference in opinion rather than a right/wrong dichotomy is the best way to maintain a good relationship. Keeping your cool and fighting on a logical basis will enable both of you to demonstrate respect for the other person's knowledge and experience. Of course, many fights are based on emotions that you don't fully understand but need to express - and understanding when this is occurring and to not take offense to these moments is also important. On the occasions that I yell at my wife - she almost immediately closes up and stops talking. She has confided to me that during these moments she simply thinks "wow, that is one angry monkey" and stops talking to give the "monkey brain" time to express itself.
2) Work together. Not necessarily at a job, but working together really builds a collective "us vs. them" attitude - even when "them" is the grass or laundry. Traditional sex roles don't really apply in a geek marriage (except of course, where they do) - so division of labor either doesn't exist or is negotiated explicitly. While division of labor is important the times that you work together are the moments that you really appreciate the contributions of the other (and geeks love to feel appreciated).
3) Unless otherwise stated, the ideas you read in books about how to make your wife feel special are full of crap (for a geek marriage). Yes, my wife likes flowers - but she'd return jewelry or any of the other varied objects of affection. The bad thing about this is that the traditional gifts are pretty worthless to her, so books don't help you. The good news is, she recognizes that time spent together is the best gift - since we both have hobbies that we might be doing otherwise. Stepping aside from a match of L4D and having a nice home cooked dinner together carries the same weight as other less practical gift giving might carry for other people.
4) You may find that some of the things that "normal" (boring?) wives do, simply don't happen. My wife hates to shop. I hate to shop. We rarely actually have new things like clothes because of it. While it's occasionally annoying to shop for my own underwear, it also means we never have to have a discussion about wasting money. It doesn't happen - except maybe for Transformers.
5) I asked my wife this question over lunch to see if she had any particular advice. He answer was rather poignant I think. "Two geeks getting married? They won't have any problems at all" I have to thank her for such unbridled optimism. She then followed it up with "He does know that actual emotion being expressed by either side is rare though, right? I hate emotional people." Quite right honey, quite right
6) Almost forgot! give them time alone when they want/need it. They have their own projects they want to do - give them the independence to accomplish them and she'll give your yours.
*chortle* You're my new hero for the day.
1. No it doesn't, or at least it shouldn't. I ahve been married for just about 20 years, and we still ahve sex several times a week.
2. So what? if this is an issue, change yoyur diet, but if they are happy, why care?
3. Only if you are an idiot and don't discuss finances every payday. In this regard I was an idiot, but now that we discuss money every payday are finince issue have evaporated.
4. Maybe, OTOH I like my inlaws and we always have a great time. So what? SO yuo deal with some epopel you don't know for a week or two a year. Grow up.
5. Says you.
6. Been married almost 20 years, still gaming on the computer, table top, and the occasional arcade.
7. My wife has never asked me if she looks fat. I wouldn't marry an woman that insecure.
8. My wife cooks, and so do I. haha, her first roast was horrible. You could literally hear the knife saw through it. She asked me "How is it?" I look at her and said "I won't build are relationship on lies. This isn't that good. It is your first roast, and I want you to keep trying."
Now her roast is AESOME. lots of flavotrs and you can nearly cut it with a fork. Yum.
9. Maybe you should get a place with more then one room? You know a room you can game in.
10. LAN parties are awesome. My wife doesn't mind.
Are you are in idiot that bases there relationships on lies?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What? of course it is, it's also chemistry. Tasty chemistry.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Try putting it this way. She might agree with it, then.
"You can be proven right, or you can be happy. You can self-justify, or you can be happy."
You should be willing to not be proven right for two reasons: (1) Even if you are right, how important is it that other people realize it? (2) Sometimes you'll turn out to be wrong.
Yeah while you are at it maybe you can get harmonically tuned.
NLP, sheesh.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yeah, I used to play the bullshit game of responding to loaded questions like, "Do you mind...," and, "Would you like to...," but then my wife would get pissed if I agreed and then didn't seem happy while doing it even though I wouldn't bitch. So now I just say, "fuck no," when she asks me something like that or does that weird thing that people do where they ask twelve questions in some bizarre chain of logic that is supposed to somehow end up getting the actual question answered. Although she still slips on occasion, she's gotten much better about using useful questions, like, "Will you do something for me...," and accepting that there are just some tasks that I won't do while shitting rainbows and singing showtunes.
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
Read this guy's comment. He explained it well.
The problem is that you're misunderstanding "don't go to bed angry." The point isn't, "Keep talking about it till you resolve the problem." The point is, stop, take stock, let go of the angry feeling, and commit to working it out together later.
Of course, it'll help resolve the argument if you don't wait for bedtime to do this. Make it part of your approach to every argument, as soon as you realize that you're letting anger get the best of you.
Disclaimer: I've never been married. My apologies if I'm oversimplifying because of that. But this seems like a pretty wise general principle, at least.
I think that is pretty much my idea of an ideal marriage, and is how my wife and i exist as well. Like anything, open communication and giving each other space are keys to co existing. That is really the only trick, being respectful to one another, not making your partner cease activities they previously enjoyed before the marriage, and being honest about things. I find that every few years my wife and I have had to re evaluate our relationship and talk it out.
We have had some tough issues to work through, but the times we have suffered for it are when we both internalize and step well clear of our trouble area and stick to the easy, fun places. Every time we pick at the sore, sometimes we get into heated words, but at the end of those nights are usually when we are closest, and have taken huge strides to eliminating the sores, all of which would have grown worse if we had let them sit and fester.
But that's pretty much life. In my opinion marriage is a pretty unrealistic promise. I got married at 24, and here I am, telling someone how things are going to be between us for another 50+ years (hopefully). That was twice as long as I've exist, and even less years that I was 'aware' of the world. A lot can happen to change a person in a year, or even a month, how can you realistically predict that you will still love each other in 50 years? You can't, you can only be optimistic about it and commit to trying.
And lets be realistic... how interesting is one person for years and years down the line? I think over time they become a rock that you need/use to weather the storm together, but you've been clinging it to it for so long you know every nook and cranny. It has the comfort of home and familiarity, but everybody likes to travel for a few weeks at a time. Marriage is in a sense battling against our nature. I know some couples have worked that out, but still... it's a losing battle.
I think many people don't take the time to at least establish a solid, realistic foundation for their marriage, and instead get caught up in the fact that our society sort of pushes out this idea that there is something wrong if you are 30+ and not married. I think people get wrapped up in the idea that they need to be married and have this happily ever after ending, they don't stop and take a real hard look at how each person treats each other in the relationship.
Long term relationships are HARD. Look at your family, its great and sad all at the same time, right? Not easy, but all you can do is keep talking to each other, let each other have a little bit of space, and keep interested in one another, and hopefully, it'll stretch out over the years.
It kinda does for guys.
Solid gold advice.
"Reality continues to ruin my life" - Calvin and Hobbes
I've been married for eleven years and we've got two kids. My wife (and kids) are geeks.
My advice is simple:
1. It isn't all wedding cake. Your relationship will have low points. Anyone can steer a relationship through an endless series of awesome. You'll fight. Fights will end. You'll see her at her worst, after bad days at work when she's been forced to smile at the jerks; when she has the flu; during childbirth and in the wee hours while nursing; cleaning the filth out of the drains (I don't know why this always seems to be the man's job, considering it's not my hair clogging the drain.).
2. Marriage is, more than anything else, a business relationship. You require a set of plans for short, medium, and long-term goals. You'd better agree on things like kids, housing, and retirement plans. (Yes, retirement plans. You two are going to be in your 60s and 70s at some point, aren't you?) Be honest about what you want, whether that's dinner plans or your favorite position.
3. Don't confuse / conflate contentment and boredom. A lot of couples break up after about 6-7 years when they "get bored" or think they could have "done better". This is especially true when you see her at her worst and you only see others at their best.
4. Let it go. If it won't matter in a few years, then just let it go.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
...and here's my best advice:
Be prepared for her to not get the reference on your jokes, and vice versa. And don't write her love poems in perl.. She won't get it.
Try to read a book she likes and discuss it with her. If she wants to reciprocate this, recommend a book she might actually like (i.e. probably not Cryptonomicon, despite its awesomeness)
Figure the rest out for yourself! You're geeks, that's what you do!
Your posts are like a moderate Muslim claiming its ok to study Wahhabbi Islam, by advising you not to get taken in by the lunatic portions of it (nearly all of it).
Why not just study non-psychotic Islam (i.e. linguistics/linguistic anthropology)?
Well, you're sort of right... but there is this expectation which is maybe endemic to the Midwest USA rather than a more general comment about marriage in general... but there is an opinion that once married, children are the next logical step and a step that cannot be missed. Thus the social weight that I refer to in the first instance was primarily the pressure we were then under to have children after we had married even though we intended no such thing.
There's also an opinion that a married couple should both lead lives that are totally intertwined... that one partner cannot have friends who do not know the other partner... or perhaps do not like the other partner for whatever reason. This was a big problem in my second marriage as my ex then took it upon herself (with her parents support) to excise those people from my life who she either didn't know, didn't care to know or who didn't care for her... even if those friends pre-dated her being a part of my life.
Perhaps I'm tarring the entire experience of marriage with an overly broad brush, but out of all the relationships I've had that lasted more than a month or two, every one of them with few notable exceptions have stood outside of the opinion that I have of marriage.
It's not helped by the fact that if you're unhappy in a marriage, you're forced into a position where you must work things out or go through an expensive and deeply unsettling legal process. It also leads to unrealistic expectations on the part of one or both partners in the event that things go bad. I can't say more without being specific about my circumstances (which I don't want to be in this open forum) but those expectations made working things out impossible because those expectations could never be met.
Another social weight that is particularly a problem in the part of the world I live (Midwest USA) is that this is still a very sexist society I live in. As such, my ex wife went from being identified as an individual person, to being identified by all around as "xxx's Wife"... and she was effectively forced into my shadow by people around us who felt that since I was the man in the relationship, I was in charge... a situation I neither desired nor appreciated. The alternative... if a woman speaks up and becomes independently identified by those around... the husband is automatically an "uninvolved deadbeat". It's a no-win situation.
Generally, I have to say that my relationship with my girlfriend now is far healthier than any married relationship I ever had. Part of that is the fact that she's an independent woman, I'm an independent man, and if we ever decide that the relationship's not working for us, either of us can take the door at any time with no fear of violating a social contract of any kind. Sure, it may not be for everyone and may not even be "acceptable" to everyone... but it works for me.
And, sorry, but I have to disagree with your disagreement. My wife goes to strip clubs with me. We've been married 4 great years now.
The simple fact is, no two people are the same. We can give all the advice you want, but when it comes down to it, you have to live within each others boundaries. For me, that means paying more attention to her than I do other things. For you, it means making sure she isn't jealous.
Some of them have to literally be retaught.
Go on, slip her a red pill.
Karma fed to this user will be promptly burnt. Be warned; be wary.
This is all my opinion of course... but I do not think marriage should be a surrender of things that existed before marriage in the relationship. I know it seems crazy now, but in 2 years, 4 more years, 8, 16.. do you really think you will never, ever, want to go out drinking with your friends again? That has to end? I would assume before you got married, you still went out with the boys, but of coarse being in a relationship you aren't going to get all crazy with another woman... this should be the same before and after the relationship. I mean, think about it, by your words, for longer then you have been alive, all those things you enjoyed doing are now closed to you forever? Is that what marriage is supposed to be?
I think your partner having suspicions and beingupset with you is a product of your partners psychology. It could be something you did in the past, or something an EX of hers did in the past, or hell a friend's ex did to the friend, and you have to pay for it. Trust me, not all women are suspicious and jealous of their husbands.
My wife and I get odd looks sometimes. I have a bunch of female friends. We cuddle and lay on top of each other, we joke around and slap asses, we have a good time being friends. When my wife is around, I tone it down, and spend just as much time flirting with her as I do with my other female friends. Sometimes I go out with just my female friends for dinner. My wife's best friend is a guy, they go out every week for food, then come back and we all play rock band together.
I tell this to people they think there's some problem in our relationship because of it. "I would NEVER let my husband do that." "You LET your wife go out with a dude by herself?!?". Odd looks if we go do separate things on weekends, she goes to hang with her friends and I go hang with mine.
Thing is, we have this crazy thing called trust and honesty. It is a pattern that's worked for 8 years and still works very well. At the end of the day between the two of us we are the people we want to spend the most time with, and I think a big reason for that not changing is allowing each other to trust one another.
Each person is different, and each person reacts differently to marriage and their partners in a relationship, and unfortunately, the older we get the more jaded I think we all become. Either that should tell us something about ourselves, or society as a whole.
As someone who is looking to get himself into a similar situation (I'm a linux/programming geek, my girlfriend is a language geek), I find it very strange to not only find such topics being openly discussed on /., but finding information that's helpful? Honest? About something other than boobs? I'm shocked. Let me know when the real /. is back. Until then, I'll bookmark this, and download it after a couple days in case it "disappears" to save face.
As for my (significantly insignificant, IANAMP) two cents, I must agree with several people above - your significant other has to be someone that you are completely honest with, and someone that can be completely honest with you, no matter what. That's the only way it's going to work. It's not going to be all happy all the time, but neither is life.
You all have Oo.o and Firefox, so get World Wind.
I am a computer geek, my wife was a literary geek. We were married for 20 years. Here are the things that I would recommend that you may want to look out for:
1.She will always, deep down, believe that she is smarter than you, and that your pursuits are pseudo-intellectual.
2.In time she will become convinced that she is being repressed, as all women are repressed by all men.
3.She will resent the fact that your technical expertise will mean that you will always make more money than she will.
5.She will come to hate the fact that she has to come to you for help with technical problems (see #1 above).
6. Over time, the above problems will fester until she becomes bitter, verbally abusive, and impossible to live with.
7. When you do finally decide that you cannot live with her any longer (and you will -- yes, you will) she will become angrier and more paranoid than you can imagine. She will become firmly convinced that she is a victim, that you lied to her and repressed her throughout the marriage, and that she is now entitled to her pound of flesh. This will be costly. Very costly.
My advice is to steer her towards the idea that marriage is an anachronism that has outlived its usefulness.
Oh, and read my sig...
Proverbs 21:19
You've tried explaining the physics involved...but you don't understand how dielectric heating with 2.45 GHz microwaves cooks very differently than the way a hot metal surface does (and why the latter is preferable)?
Hell you don't even have to say it was bad, just suggest something that might be more fun. "Oh, you know what would be cool, is next time could you bend your ankle around your head from the RIGHT and put the monkey over on the LEFT of the bed, that would be sweet I think, what do you think?"
I read about this questionnaire that helps decide how ready you are, what spots to work on; the 2nd link is another reference to it:
http://www.relate-institute.org/
http://griggs.byu.edu:8232/Article.aspx?a=148
A Free, fast personal organizer for touch typists: onemodel
Rules that that work for us... 1. My wife always gets the new computer -- one every year to year and a half -- so buy based on what you want on your desk in that time frame. 2. My wife always gets the new iPod -- same rules as above, except I buy new headphones when I inherit her old one. 3. Any new toy I get, she gets something, when we went to a high def TV, I just factored in the cost of the PS3 (my wife is a system gamer, I game on PC's). 4. We always have at least a couple no tech nights a week -- use your imagination. 5. When in doubt, realize that it is far easier to justify a new toy for her rather than for yourself, then you replace them more often. Overall mantra - would you rather be happy with the hand me down toy or sleeping on the couch?
Along these lines, I recommend Gary Chapman's study: The Five Love Languages. I didn't expect any benefit going into it, but my wife and I both learned how to better identify what the other needs.
coffee | nose > keyboard
Number one indicator of divorce - insistence on coed combined bachelor/bachelorette parties. My theorem has never failed on me (at least for my circle of acquaintances). If a couple is not secure enough for one night apart, well...
If..em...entertainment is desired and your mate's approval is needed - just buy one for each other. That way, you're speaking with your wallet and gives the buyer a moment to reflect on their decision and will hopefully decrease some of the "reneging" that you're speaking of.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Tony Robbin's was pretty big into NLP, and still uses a lot of the same techniques/concepts.
What part of the midwest are you from? I'm from Ohio and have never come across any of the things you talked about. Sure, you get the mom / grandma going "when are you going to have kids" but everyone I've ever known never had a problem when they'd just say "We're not planning on it" or "We're not planning on it any time soon".
I have known people who got involved with girls like your second wife - but seeing as these were people who came from all over the country, it's more a matter of some people (guy or girl) being a controlling fsck than anything about marriage or regional culture.
It seems to me that all of your problems you had didn't stem from marriage or local culture, but from being with girls with unrealistic expectations, girls who were control freaks, or family / friends who just don't know how to mind their own business. I'm sorry that things went so badly for you (as a fellow nerd and man, I can say I've had plenty of girls screw me over), and I hope things go better for you in the future.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The only valid advice is that there is no valid advice.
People are not machines, you can't open a book, like if it was a manual, and find all the pearls of wisdom there.
Marriage is like any other human relationship (really) and for that reason no amount of advice will prepare you about how to progress that relationship.
Stop reading, start thinking and feeling.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
There are plenty of otherwise intelligent people who don't communicate well or manage conflict well. A book on those topics would definitely be beneficial.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
The point is to cool down and not be angry.
Not to stay angry and keep awake.
these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ..
Totally depends on the situation. For me, I had a bachelor party, and have been to several since being married, and it has not posed any problem (my wife had a bachelorette party and has been to her share as well).
The reason this didn't cause problems is that we both know what the other is comfortable with. My wife has never asked me what I did at any of these parties, but if she did, I would answer openly and honestly, because I know that I did not do anything that she would object to.
It's all a matter of trusting and being trustworthy. My wife and I also remain friends with some of our respective exes. Does this pose a problem? No, because we are totally transparent about it. If one of us started sneaking around, that would cause problems!
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Not sure a pre-nup is a good "must have" unless there was already a severe imbalance in finances when you got married. Otherwise, if you don't trust this person to pull half their weight in the relationship (and thus deserve half the "stuff" at the end), why are you marrying them?
Because shit happens, and it prevents you (and the other partner) from getting screwed. Marriage is a legal arrangement, not an emotional one.
Treat your wife like a human being who is your intellectual equal. Communicate your needs and desires, don't sweat the small stuff, and don't go to bed angry.
My wife gets pissed if I watch porn.
Well, if I watch it without her, anyway. As long as I invite her, she's cool with it.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Not sure why you got modded down. You have some valid points in your post.
the one I cant stand.... WTF is it with all the fricking pillows on the bed? we need 2... TWO!!!! not 60 of them!!!!!
How can you build a proper fort with just two pillows?
I used up all my mod points earlier, but this is definitely insightful. You can't rely on what anybody else wrote, and you have to be willing to adapt things more or less on the fly. It's more like the old days of computing, when no two boards would work quite the same. Figure out what works for the two of you and do it.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
This has nothing to do with gender, I find it's perfectly true for most people who talk about their problems, male or female, regardless of their relationship to you. A lot of people don't seem to be interested in solutions. They seem to get irritated if you solve their problems or suggest solutons. The more solutions you suggest, the more they'll invent some bullshit reason for rejecting your solutions - this thereby extends the conversation to such a point that you're reduced to just nodding and expressing fake sympathy, hoping they'll go away. More, by then you'll have lost your respect for them, since they obviously want to create a problem out of nothing, which can't be solved by anyone, and just want to whine about it for the sake of whining about it.
Now, when someone says this is the "secret" to a happy marriage, namely nodding and pretending to empathize rather than suggesting solutions, I say no, it's not. If you have to come up with a rule such as this, there is no underlying foundation of respect in the marriage. In fact, I think you just obliquely called your wife some kind of idiot...
I've never had to "just talk, not problem solve" with my girlfriend of 20 years.
I think that this video says it all then... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-m6JDYRFvk
Lookup the book "A fortress for Well-being". There's also "Pure gold - Enhancing character qualities in marriage". Designed for a certain community, but solid ideas regarding commitment.
The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriage.
So things got cooler for a few days, he reached the conclusion of his thought, and she eventually learned that he was glad he made the decision he did. I'm guessing she was reminded of something she didn't like, but that laid the foundation for their growing closer together.
Sounds positive to me. A few days coolness, in exchange for that lovely feeling that you know you're partner will talk to you about their thoughts and let you in on their dreams and meanderings, even things they're not sure if you'll like. Then you have something to really talk about.
If I were in a position like that woman's I'd much rather hear what he was thinking than just hear the "conclusion".
But then again I'm not him or her.
It's not nice to get a slap like that, but it will improve the sex life if it's honest and you're actually compatible.
Consider it a starting point - "oh, I thought you were enjoying that.... let's try something else next time... tell me how you'd really like it..."
The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work doesn't make too many assumptions about you (it looks like there is another edition out which is probably identical except for the cover). And as a nice bonus, it's based on actual research, not useless psychobabble dreamed up by somebody based on theories that were based on theories by Freud. Freud's a bad foundation, almost anything built upon his work comes down in under three decades. Anyway, this book doesn't assume that you are stupid, willfully ignorant, a neanderthal, or any of that. Most of the stuff by John Gottman is good, it's all based from his love lab, an actual scientific setup where they study couples. Just as an example of how amazing they are, they have figured out how to predict the permanence of a marriage after watching one argument and interviewing the couple for about 15 minutes (!).
I think this is right, plus I'd add one more: ask HER. And, ask *yourself*. Making a relationship work is a collaboration between two people, and those two people know how they work better than anyone else does. Books - particularly self-help books - are sold to fearful people who hope that a simple recipe will make everything work for them.
In any case, OP is asking the wrong question. You're in a relationship NOW. What makes that relationship work? The same things that make it work - and that would continue to keep it working - are the things that will make a marriage work. Getting married doesn't change the people, all it does is add a paper contract to a pre-existing relationship.
People who expect marriage to change themselves and/or their partner are destined for grief.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
Mod parent up!
Bring back Sirius Punk!
I like it when i am told that it wasn't that good, because usually I get pointers which makes it better the next time. You can't improve something if you don't know whats wrong with it.
"Infecting minds with my own memetic virus, one post at a time." Ultimape
I have a feeling that, by "man" you mean "you", and by "woman" you also have someone specific in mind. I'm not sure why you'd make such an unfounded generalization otherwise.
Athletic alpha male and submissive cheerleader-- lol. You are talking about sexual role play-- not marriage. Maybe check your sources? If the cover of the books portray an image of a lewd nature on the front then you are probably looking at the wrong material.
Zap: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised."
No, NO, NO!
I've tried this more than my fair share, and I end up going to bed, waking up fine, and she's up half the night stewing about what was said, and the other half of the night thinking of ways to ensure that the punishment she's about to inflict upon me will have me suffering in exquisite ways as I try to figure out what's wrong (as I've completely forgot about the night before).
999 times out of 1,000 it's over something very minor, and an "I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking" will solve the situation, and that one time in a thousand, then you need to stay up and hash it out and not childishly take your ball and go home to bed.
This is not to say that I don't still do it (I'm a male, therefore, axiomatically, stupid), but I _know_ what the right thing is to do...and my wife is a saint for having to put up with me. Really.
my god man.. have you seen how geeks can fight over big things, like linux distros, coding styles and typefaces? now crank that up to two peopel forced to cohabitate and then any little pedantic thing can be the source of legendary flame wars.
I mean, lets face it, we don't fight fair, now can you imagine getting your arm twisted by a literary geek "Admit Caslon Pro pwns Helvetica or no sex!"
yeah, that's the stuff of nightmares.
You've got the number one key right there....never go to bed angry. Or something like that. Geek or non-geek pairing, you're obviously friends already. Remember that. Always. The last argument my wife and I had where we didn't talk to each other afterward was September 9th, 2001. We argued that afternoon and I decided to go sleep at work (firefighter) before an overtime shift the next day. Didn't even say a word...just went to work. Didn't even call her the next day. The next phone call was the morning of 9-11-01 when I told her my FEMA USAR team was being deployed to New York and I was being sent with them. 11 days later, we knew there was NOTHING worth arguing over enough not to remind each other why we were together. We're both paramedics, I'm a firefighter. She's technologically incompetent. I fix things. There is NO WAY to fix a woman. The warranty was up on her birthday.
In the Philippines, there is no divorce, so one marries for life. How does one stay married for life? 1. Everyday, remember your vows: to have and to hold, from this day forward, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death parts you, and thereto you promise each other your faithfulness. 2. Have many children. If you have many children, you'll be too busy raising them to want to fight. Besides, geeks can afford them. 3. Teach each other your interests: literature and programming? Teach your children and learn with them, literature and programming. You can't go wrong with these two. 4. Always look at the good side of people, specially your husband/wife. Forgive their mistakes. Talk to each other. Make love often, in order to get many children. 5. Share in the household chores. Who says that the wife must do the cooking and the laundry? The husband can do that too. 6. Every so often, go out on a date with wife/husband. If you want, bring your children. 7. If you are religious, teach your children about God and your religion. Pray together with your children.
I concur, but I sure don't like such a slap in the face as having an orgasm and then hearing "You know honey, that really sucked. I hope you do better next time"
What hurts the feelings, in my opinion, is when you've been doing something they don't like for a whole month, THEN they tell you. You gotta be honest and open enough to address issues as they come up. It's also important to tell the person what they do that you DO like, or you run the risk of paralyzing them with insecurity.
But the way to approach it is say, "I don't like it much when you do X, could you spend more time doing Y? I really like that."
Please stop stalking me, bro.
If she does this, it means you married the wrong woman.
Pitfall #1: Trying to learn everything from books. Pitfall #2: If it fails, asking Slashdot.
You're doing it wrong.
The idea is to let her know that you love her, and you two will work it out in the morning. Not stay up all night until the fight is settled.
Ignore the parent although it is logical, human relationships are not.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Lots of good advice floating around... obviously adjust to your own reality is the thing to keep in mind. Some things work great for some ppl but not others.
I'd like to make a point in that light about the don't lose your temper thing. Some people have a breaking point for temper, as I do. Somebody mentioned they go from seeming totally fine (controlling your anger) to white hot rage when you reach that point. I'm one of those people. But even though I'd much rather not get angry most of the time, on a couple of occasions I think I was justified in getting really really angry at my wife. I love her to death and always will, I respect her a huge amount, but sometimes she makes mistakes that are too big to be glossed over. Sometimes what she wants is more important, but sometimes what I want (or what the kid needs) is more important... and once in a blue moon losing your temper over something that you know is critical is OK.
Now if your wife and you are perfect this won't happen.
If it's not assured, you're with the wrong woman.
It was actually tongue in cheek. But it's been fun watching everyone be so damned serious. I didn't think Slashdot could be so humor impaired.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
The argument doesn't have to be finished in order to go to bed. "I'm sorry, but I'm just too exhausted/drunk to finish this right now. I love you, and we'll work it out in the morning.".
And of course the "I disagree with you" mods are having a go it the original post. It had been up to 5 at one point.
But it's well worth the entertainment.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Have you ever considered... You know... Talking to her?
Well done.
1 - Your partner HAS TO be your best friend. Also your accomplice during the good times. When you plan a night out together for dinner or drinks, fuck before you go, you'll both be amazed how much more pleasant a night out is, since you're both relaxed, and you can make a game at how tense everyone else seems. You'll both feel like the smartest, wisest couple in the room.
2 - Drop the adversary or competitive crap.. Honestly, this one baffles me. What's the point? With my wife, I often make mocking allusions to some imaginary, generic cartoon adult that would resort to the "it's complicated" non-explanation to his/her children. I speculate that competitiveness is one of the easiest ways to arrive at that point. Always keeping things as simple as you can is a solid platform for long term happiness.
3 - Drop the "my money" and "your money" bull, it's all your family's money. Sure, I agree, I just wish my wife would see it that way. She doesn't overspend, but often she neglects to inform me about it, so when I need the money and I'm counting on it, to my surprise it's gone. So my side of many an argument tends to be of the "What am I, the goddamn janitor around here?" variety. And that leads to the Communication aspect of a relationship.
4 and 6 - Trust, if you cant trust each other 100% right now then stop (includes Honesty and Respect). May be the single most important factor towards a long term relationship, it's usually sex (past relationships, pr0n) that gets in the way, and some people just can't cope with this one. My wife and I pass the "test of fire" on this one, once she narrated to me in detail about a past sexual encounter of hers (in a train from Paris to Cologne, BTW), and we ended up doing it in the kitchen. I do openly let my eye wander towards asses in front of my wife, and she's cool with it, even participates with me, she knows I regard hidden guilt and lying as such huge energy expenditures that I'm too thrifty (lazy?) to even contemplate it with any seriousness. We also sometimes share my pr0n to add a little extra spice to, sometimes even kick start, intimate proceedings.
5 - You are a complete and utter jerk if you say anything intentionally hurtful to the other person. I just asked my wife if I've ever done this to her, she can't come up with a single instance. She reciprocated the question, and I can't dig up anything from the memory banks. So thankfully this is outside our realm of experience.
Also incalculably helpful, my wife was a latent geek when we met, she's now viewed my Monty Python box sets more times than I have, ends up quoting different stuff than I would, "Scott Of The Sahara" for example, Miss Vanilla Hoare (Carol Cleveland) - "I'm a star! Star, star, star!" We also have the full series of SCTV, Kids In The Hall and Mr Show. She made me very proud recently, finally overcoming her apprehension to watch the Star Wars OT, then a couple of weeks later she did it again! To my utter astonishment, she's also getting hooked into Star Trek, a friend loaned us the first, 1966 season. We're also currently in the middle of Battlestar Galactica.
A word of advice I once received from an older, wiser friend - when a relationship goes bust, it's usually never over one large issue or conflict, but instead an accumulation of small, stupid details, such as leaving one's underwear in the bathroom floor, not leaving the egg-encrusted frying pan soaking in water, etc. The background radiation that can make this toxic is Lack Of Communication, allowing irritation to become resentment, then suddenly you're looking at everything through a magnifying glass, and when things explode, there's no coherent explanation, just a jumbled mess of emotions and an impossibly long list of grievances that seem stupid when looking at them on an individual basis. You have to keep this potential situation constantly defused, every day is Day One.
I could go on and on, so I'll just stop right here.
Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
1. Determine what you each like and do at least some of that each week.
2. Determine what you like doing together and do at least some of that each week.
3. Make sure finances don't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
4. Make sure housework doesn't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
5. If something changes, find an equitable solution together and stick to it.
There. That's it. This has served me and my wife for 9 years and counting.
I don't forget to say those three special words: "I am sorry." I'm amazed at how many people in this world have trouble saying they are sorry even when they know they are clearly wrong. (This applies in all relationships, not just marriage.)
In marriage you have to be prepared to say sorry when you are clearly right too.
I did. It was painful and unproductive. "What would you do if you found out you could not have kids?" What would you do if you had not thought about this before deciding to get married? Almost everyone in the class I took was already living together, most were married, almost none were clued in. It was a complete, complete waste of time.
I suppose that if you get through the course it is a sign your relationship is strong and that you are on the same wavelength.
I guess the only positive impact was that it was a significant step on my SO's way out of the catholic church. I used to feel bad (20 years ago, or so) about not going to church with her, especially as she would often end up not going, and there are seriously positive aspects (meeting people when you move to new areas, shared context with said people) to church attendance (that do not balance the negative for me of actually having to sit through it, or at least did not when I was much younger). Now she has no interest in going either.
The priest who married us said the relationship would not last due to my lack of faith. The marriage is still fine after 15 years.
YMMV. I have heard of better and worse churches and priests. Ours were pretty bad.
You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
Speak for yourself, earthling.
Stop Global Warming!
Just say no to irreversible processes!
There are four basic things that are universal regardless of the interests and personalities you two bring to the relationship:
1. Love is a choice not an emotion. You might not like or be happy with the other person from one moment to the next but you must chose to love them anyway.
2. She WILL be a pain in your ass. You need to accept that.
3. You WILL be a pain in her ass. She needs to accept that.
4. The two of you must communicate readily, openly and with understanding 2 & 3. Never assume the other realizes they're being a pain in the ass. Never let passions overrule the fact that you love them and want an enjoyable life together.
Failure on any part by either of you WILL cause strife and division.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
That may be the case, but it is, nonetheless, not assured.
Bzzzt, wrong. small lies are what keeps you in your miserable routine. I'm sorry your sex life sucks but if you took the five to ten minute to talk to the woman about why sex wasn't that great you'd probably come up together with ways to improve it. You didn't like the way she moved maybe? Yeah well, keep pretending you liked it and she'll happily repeat the same move over and over again for the next 30 years believing it makes you happy. If there is something you can't talk about in your relationship you're screwed. period.
See the thing is, I do want to talk about such things. Just you know, at an appropriate time ;)
White lies are what stupid people tell because they can't figure out how to tell truth gently.
Do you love that (really ugly fucking sweater) I gave you? Not really, grandmother, but I love you!
What do you think of (outfit that accentuates every single flaw of a person's figure)? You know I love the way you look, but this outfit doesn't really seem to suit your look.
At work they made me so mad I (did something really childish in response to a stupid coworker) - what do you think? It's great that you stand up for yourself - you always have a plan. What is your plan for handling the blowback if any of those idiots get upset?
All of those are honest but they are said in a way that is kind and speaks to the core issue. Allowing someone to look like a fool when they were counting on you for honesty is incredibly cruel.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
She'll dump you the minute she finds someone who is more successful and better looking than you. Oh, and you can forget about having sex once the ink on the license is dry. Seriously, you may think you know her but trust me, you don't. The moment you think you have her figured out, she changes the rules. Watch her like a hawk and be damn sure you remember everything you say and everything she says because she will conveniently forget stuff that doesn't support her beef at that moment and remember stuff that to you is insignificant. Oh, and watch your money, especially nowadays. Ask yourself if she's marrying you for the safety factor.
Ah yes, but the question "Does this make me look fat" is in a whole other ballpark than "What do you think of this outfit"
The point of the former is to corner you and force a compliment out of you because the lass is feeling a bit unsure of herself. Whereas the latter is an honest request for an opinion and honesty is expected.
Just let her have what she wants when it doesn't matter so you can have what you want when it does. Of course you should always pretend that the nonsense she thinks is interesting and important actually is and that you are listening as she rambles on and on and on and on about it.
She should do the same in turn.
Aside from that, put the toilet seat down and always put your dishes in the dishwasher.
Oh yeah, and always remember that what she says she wants, particularly when it comes to sex, is rarely what she wants. Generally they want to be treated like a dirty whore piece of meat in practice. They want it hard and nasty. Even though they claim to want it soft, gentle, long in duration, and touchy feely. Fuck em hard and often to the point that they complain their various crevices are swollen and swore, then tap it again.
Again, they won't admit it. In fact, there will probably be a woman or two chiming in saying something to the contrary and no doubt there will be a 90's metro-sexual mumbling something about caring and sharing. Trust me, ignore them all and listen to me and she'll have multiple orgasms within 5-15 minutes of intercourse and that in simple missionary and doggy style. It's all mental for them so as long as you handle things properly the physical part CAN be the way we want it and still be very satisfying to both.
Hmm...must be an epidemic then. I see this WAY too often in many married men. They lost their spine somewhere, and their wives call the shots.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Ah yes, the truth behind that story... The condo we used to rent had a renovated bathroom from an accident years ago where someone's tub upstairs overflowed and damaged the walls of the bathrooms beneath it. When it was repaired it wasn't fully completed... someone forgot to properly caulk a few small gaps around the ring of the tub. Long story short, years of moisture worked their way back into the drywall and weakened it to the point where my *ahem* girlfriends tight little butt put an ass-sized dent in the tiles where the drywall was damp. ;)
Needless to say we left that place pretty quickly and bought our own condo.
In any case, the moral of the story is that sex in the shower isn't nearly as fun as it sounds. Foreplay in the shower is fine though!
3 - drop the "my money" and "your money" bull.
You're geeks right, so budget for every little thing you can think of (haircuts, petrol, emergencies... everything and I mean everything), put an estimate of the weekly / fortnightly total in a database / spreadsheet. Also include say $50 per week each to do what ever you want with.
If you can't agree to purchase something and budget for it together, you can still save some of your own allowance.
09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
I'm about to get married and my fiancee and I have really enjoyed the books by John Gottman http://www.gottman.com/ From the website: "John Gottman, Ph.D. is world-renowned for his work on marital stability and divorce prediction, including the study of emotions, physiology, and communication. He was recently voted as one of the Top 10 Most Influential Therapists of the past quarter-century by the Psychotherapy Networker magazine. He is the author of 190 published academic articles and author or co-author of 40 books, including his NY Times best seller, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He is the Executive Director of the Relationship Research Institute, which creates programs for new parents and treatments for domestic violence"
As first, a band/music geek then switching to computers in middle age who is married to an accountant and has been for 35 years I have a little advice.
When you fight, and you will, fight fair. Don't ever go for those things that a spouse knows about that can really hurt the feelings of your partner.
Remember even when you are angry that you love this person and you really don't want to hurt their feelings.
Also don't ever bring a lawyer, or even worse two, into your marriage. It is my experience that any mention of lawyers in a marriage totally destroys the trust in the relationship.
AG
Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Yes! i agree ... it doesnt accomplish anything if the other person isnt willing to commit to change. I m sorry is fscking meaningless.
Why marry someone so petty and manipulative that they're the kind of person who would put someone they ostensibly love into a no-win situation such as that? My reply was based on the assumption that people weren't marrying emotional cripples or people who are developmentally stuck at approximately age 10.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Actually I did take an interest in it, and have a very good idea about what it is, which is basically like alternative medicine in scientific validity.
Small lies are what ultimately result in failed marriages. This is because small lies have a way of snowballing. Let's take your sex example. If you don't communicate your dissatisfaction about the sex you get, then over time you begin to lose interest in your unsatisfying partner, This generally leads to wandering eye and worse. Now take the couple that is smart enough to communicate like "I don't like that. Do this instead, Oooh ahhh OOOO!". This is how you communicate and wind up with a partner who out of affection for you WANTS you to be happy and is willing to learn how to do that, and vice versa.
/. for marriage advice, my advice is DO NOT GET MARRIED!
So my advice to this pair of Geeks is PUT DOWN TFM AND COMMUNICATE!
If you are honest and communicative, you can survive marriage. There is no FM for marriage and I'm not talking about "Friendly" here. Ok.
If you have to ask
Holy C!
She admitted it, and apologised, and we then proceeded to fix the situation.
Should have made her do the work and you should have told her how to do it, instead of willingly participating in fixing her fuck-up. She'll think twice about being irrational next time :D
You're not married are you? She won't think twice at all, and will be just as irrational next time. And you won't mind, 'cos she's your wife and you love her.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
I heartily agree with "Honestly: be honest, and stick together as a team" as good advice on Navigating a Geek Marriage -- and any marriage. I affirm those comments through these of my own:
Put-downs. I can also say that you need to work out how to detect even the slightest tendency in yourself to "put down" your wife, because that would not have you being a true team player. Just DO NOT allow yourself to talk down that person you love, even in the darkest recesses of your mind's "self-talk" where those thoughts might never make it to your larynx or the keyboard. And, yes, talking your partner down can become insidious within yourself, let alone if expressed in words. Someone I respected and looked up to in many things was a constant "talker-down" of his wife, who constantly 'agreed' so that he would shut up; but, it was not pretty to see.
Love. You have said that you love her. Very good. I urge you, from now on, to never say it lightly, or as a joke. To her, the saying by you of the "three magic words" ( I love you ) are imbued with a mystic, therapeutic, comforting, wonderful, relaxing, joyous meaning.
The words must be felt by you and said with your full conviction on every occasion. Preferably, when ever you feel it (and, aren't email and SMS wonderful innovations for this.) That's team play!
There may be times when you think that just by saying them (e.g. without truly meaning it, just for fun, to stop a fight, because you think she will be happier if you do, etc) will have the 'magic' effect; but this is not true. And, never qualify these words; no adding "... if you do/be/like/have this/that/other", etc.
Sun-set. The sun never sets on a marriage, except in one respect. Never "let the sun set" on an issue between you; spend the time and discuss it (fix it) so that it does not become a multi-day catastrophe. You might not be concerned, sleep on it and probably forget it, but she will worry over it through the night and until it IS fixed. You do not need her concerned! You need her "right", and the two of you as a team.
Together-ness. Others are telling you how to do things together. That's team play. What you share will change as you both grow. That's still team play. And, there's always one really fun way to have together-ness :) and that's really "team play".
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
Asian women also avoid key white women characteristics such as having a mid life crisis, divorce, and hobbies that donâ(TM)t involve taking care of the children or cooking for their husband. See for more info http://tinyurl.com/3r8x6o
"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains..."
think that's the way it's supposed to work. Some of them have to literally be retaught.
You know, I don't necessarily disagree with you ... but goddamn do you come across as an arrogant condescending cock when you say things like that. If I were you, I'd re-evaluate some of your own personality traits. I'm going to take a wild guess here that you spend a lot of time "teaching" your wife the "right" way of doing things and feeling.
If I'm mistaken, please accept my apologies for making assumptions. Just realize that this is the impression you make.
Wow, There goes the myth of single weirdo geeks who can't even spell the word "girlfriend"
Because women fish for compliments. It's their thing and I have yet to find a woman who wouldn't do it. Usually it's best to just pay them the compliment and be done with it.
Couldn't agree more, the best thing you can do is to just listen and ask a leading question here and there.
Martin
I think there is value for the clueless. A lot of the people in our class loved it and were amazed by the questions. I could not believe that people were getting married (and, in several cases (though it WAS catholic) re-married) without thinking about basic living together stuff (and 28 out of 30 couples were living together, including us). I know people who had more enjoyable courses but I don't know anyone who said they really got much out of the class.
You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
Don't forget that RTFM only works when a definitive (or at least high-quality) M exists, and it's hard for that to happen when dealing with humans. If we had the M, we would have a much better idea of how to model human thought processing in AI systems. While I'm also a strong RTFM supporter especially because it helps one be thorough in many cases, there are definitely limitations.
If she does this, it means you married the wrong woman.
No, it might just mean you are so determined to "win" the argument by losing it that you're not being reasonable. I don't want a guy I can walk all over, but at some point, I'm going to stop trying to compromise and just win. That's the point at which I will dump you.
I know keeping money separate works for some people, but honestly, I make 33% more than he does. Why does that mean I get 33% more fun? Does that mean I get to retire earlier while he still works, since he doesn't have enough money to retire? I just don't understand how it works.
No generalization is 100%. By woman I mean "most women"; there are always exceptions, but I've never seen the exception. By "man" I do mean all men. Actually, the inability to say it is stupid for anyone.
Maybe I attract the wrong sort of women.
Free Martian Whores!
So give the compliment that *she* looks beautiful to you, even if sometimes her clothing might not. And, to be honest, if you're dating people who do that, as I said, you're dating emotional cripples who use children's tactics to get their needs met. Male or female, people who use such tactics in their relationships for such things as compliments will also likely have a similar level of emotional maturity in other areas.
You're also being a bit wide with your comments when you say "women fish or compliments. It's their thing" even though you qualify it with your own experience (which I'm sure encompasses a representative sample of woman-kind, so that your global statements aren't just misogyny, right?)
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Actually it's what women themselves have told me about their kind. Who am I to question?
In my experience they don't fish for compliments a lot because I have a rule to always reply with an uncompliment when someone is being silly like that.
Ah, you must have met an Ur-Mother then; they speak for all of womankind.
It's so much easier to treat people as interchangeable objects rather than to bother with that whole "individuality" thing, isn't it?
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
In short, yes, yes it is. But really, stereotypes exist for a reason and are a good heuristic to start with. It's only when people don't recognise it's just a heuristic and not a full-proof personality profile that problems arise.
In short, every person inherist from the base class Person.
Just watch out for the ones that are public and allow unrestricted access to their methods. Some of them have some really nasty bugs that may cause an unrecoverable system error.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
ouch, sorry couldn't resist. I can only imagine you dressed up as Spock and her dressed up as an Elf from LOTR
Number 5 is a must. If you genuinely care for the other person, this should happen automatically. It can still be a struggle to keep it in mind, though.
Don't expect that you will know her once you make the committment and tie the knot. I've talked to people who have lived together for 5 eyars who still say that you marry a stranger. Go Figure.
You cannot change someone else. Learn to accept what is, instead of trying to make what isn't.
You can change yourself. But don't do it to please someone, do it only if you want the change.
Give her her own space.
Talk to her.
Listen to her.
Share the chores -- do them together.
Try to leave work at work.
Spend an hour a day out of the bedroom doing something together. Otherwise you can find that you are living with a total stranger that you used to know. If your life is hectic, it may be only chores. It may only be using the dining room table as a study hall, and both of you helping teh kids with your homework. It can even be one person on the mower with one with the weedwhacker, although it should be something with a few more opportunities for shared comments.
Don't have kids until you are sure this will last for 20 years. It's not fair to them. In my days as a teacher I've seen the damage that parents at war or separated can do. I've also seen the positive results from parents where they live in harmony and teach this relationship skill to their kids.
Third Career: Tree Farmer Second Career: Computer Geek First Career: Teacher, Outdoor Instructor, Photographer.
The point is you know you've found the right woman when she's not interested in walking all over you.
If either party walks all over the other, the marriage will not last.
In a good marriage, both partners communicate and make sure they aren't walking all over the other.
More than half of all marriages end in divorce. So if you try to judge the behavior of a married couple, you have very good odds that you are looking at a doomed relationship.
If either partner in a marriage walks all over the other, it's doomed.
In a good marriage, both partners make sure they don't walk over the other.
Finally, statements such as yours tend to include a significant degree of bias. It's likely that you notice the guys getting walked over more than the women. Or you are attributing "she's calling the shots" to something that's actually mutual.
For example, if I always ask my wife where she wants to go out to dinner. That doesn't mean she's always deciding where we go to dinner. I'm getting her opinion. If we agree, great. If not, then we figure it out together.
Weeeell, I meant staying outside the booth and have her come out when she's decent, but your way is fun too, though against store policy :)
For the shoes: Comments on how it shapes her leg and affects her posture are considered constructive.
Oh thats a good comment for shoes. Just need to learn to see which ones of them look good - I notice when its absolutely great looking, but anything in between looks quite same heh.
I wonder if that is actually against store policy here, I mean the saleswomen have been walking past when going in the booth and even bringing other clothes to try while I'm in too and commenting etc. Maybe culture differences a bit too.
I guess it depends on the setup, if you have a separate area with women's changing room and one with men's, they keep you separated, if it's just a series of cells on the side of the store, then they don't really care.
You can't take the sky from me...
This really isn't targeted towards geeks, but it may help you (and her) in the planning. Think of it as "The Knot" for Guys. Trust me: it's working looking in to. My wedding is planned for 2012, and this has gotten me way ahead of the game. http://theplunge.com/ Here's a sample article talking about the reception venue: http://theplunge.com/weddingplanning/how-to-pick-a-venue-for-the-wedding-reception
-- kp
My guess is that your biggest concern will be overanalyzing everything.
Of course she'll be just as irrational next time. Doesn't mean you shouldn't make her do it.
I don't mind people having quirks. I do, however, mind them making more work for me on a regular basis, simply because they refuse to learn from their mistakes.
I made an effort not to walk all over my husband when we were first dating. It didn't work until he realized he had to put forth some effort too. I can only argue "You're right" "No, you're right" for so long until finally I give in. "Ok, I'm right."
Part of communicating is making sure you aren't being walked over either. What exactly am I supposed to do if you insist I am right on every occasion? How do I avoid walking all over you if you won't let yourself be right occasionally? That's all I'm saying.
1. Sex in relationships often diminishes regardless of the honesty of the people involved mostly because the female does not have the same sex drive as the male. Other factors contribute to the decrease in sex...
I hate this. Yes, that's the stereotype: Men want sex all the time, women don't (and they want it less and less as time goes on! Middle-aged women, I've heard... they could totally live without sex!) Puh-lease.
There are two things I have to say to this.
1. Women and men (actually, partners in any relationship!) often want sex in different ways. Different things turn them on; different things turn them off. Often complaints about the other not wanting to have sex turn out to be complaints about the other not wanting to have sex YOUR WAY. Want her to have sex with you? Find out what makes her want to have sex with you, and do it! Ask her to do the same. It's called filling each other's needs. And yes, it changes over time and with stress, etc.-- keep revisiting the issue.
2. Don't generalize. Women have just as much variety in their libidos as men do-- there are men who are less sexual, and women who are incredibly sexual. There are sexual relationships in which a woman wants sex more often or in more varied ways than a man does (I've been in some of those) and there are sexual relationships in which a man wants sex more often or in more varied ways than a woman does (I've been in some of those, too.) It's about the individual, and more than that it's about the couple. If you are in a relationship where you are sexually frustrated and your spouse isn't interested in you sexually-- that doesn't mean you're a man and she's a woman, it means that you have problems in your relationship, and I suggest talking about your frustrations and needs, and maybe enacting some fantasies. Hers AND yours.
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Eh. Not having separate bank accounts is important. And you mention "the cost and work" of having a joint bank account? Are you serious? Two people, one account to maintain. Obviously higher costs and more work than maintaining a single account. Why should each spouse bear the whole costs of maintaining a bank account (or any resource) when the costs and burdens can be shared? Isn't that a major part of marriage, anyway?
Ignore parent's advice. In fact, if you think you need separate finances and a prenuptial agreement, cancel the wedding. Either you're not ready for marriage or she's (or he's, in other cases) not the right one and you don't trust her.
I am soon to marry my true love ... Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife.
Cheerleading has nothing to do with submission in a wife. In fact, the stereotypical cheerleader would not be a submissive wife at all. Maybe it's worth considering that the idea of a submissive wife also has nothing to do with the wife's individual personality traits, but rather more generally with what makes a woman a good wife. Nevertheless, it is good that you are careful what you read; what is this "alpha-male jock" nonsense? A good husband loves his wife -- and treats her that way -- and you should consider the implications of that before marrying.
A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?
Eh, what about neglect due to gaming or other computer work? Or reading? Obviously you've got to generalize from examples like that. The issue isn't really the sports, it's the relationship.
The "not worth the cost and work" was the cost and work of a third bank account. I was willing at the start of our marriage to have a single joint account, and indeed expected it - my dear wife was not, due to various things in her past.
Now that I'm a number of years in, I can tell you there's no way I'm having a joint account with her. We manage money very differently and don't need the stress of it.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Ever seen how long my freaks list is? I'm not exactly well loved, around here. ;)
Thanks, though. :)
A common characteristic of geeks is that they tend to be rather close-minded or even insular about their hobbies with those that don't share them. My GF sometimes gets annoyed when I get into a long gaming session, and the same applied to me when she was involved in various things that left me feeling neglected.
Try and mold your interests to include your SO if possible, but don't try too hard to mold your SO to fit your interests. Also, make sure that you aren't ignoring each other. DON'T miss important events by being too involved in your hobbies/work/whatever (these include scheduled events or things like not noticing when your SO is experiencing a personal/professional issue and needs your support).
Up here (Canada), the words I keep getting from others is that after living together for an extended length of time, you're pretty much tied as if you were married anyhow. As common-law you can still claim shared medical benefits, taxes, etc. You can also get burned in a breakup.
I've often wondered about this. I'm currently the primary income-earner as my SO is from out-of-country and is having trouble finding a decent job despite massive qualifications (Degree in Account, Master's in Business). On the other hand she has a lot of banked money etc, mostly out of the country. People keep telling me to "be careful" as we've been living together for over a year, and the potential a nasty breakup. Personally I was less worried about it until a whole whack of people brought it up. It almost seems that a marriage would be safer in that regard as you could at least have a marriage contract. On the other hand, I'm not about to break up based on the forebodings of others, life's too short to live in fear.
I see. Even at best, your situation is a very specific one and the advice you gave is not at all generally wise and beneficial for everyone in general, even though your original post suggested that you thought it was.
Assuming both parties to the marriage have a decent income of their own, I do think separate finances are a good way to go.
There are enough other ways to annoy each other without having ones you can avoid easily.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Don't get hung up about it - geek is not a dirty word, and all organisms will have their intersections regardless of different interests. FFS, you are both l337, go with instinct. It is a point of honour never to RTFM.
My congratulations to you.