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Navigating a Geek Marriage?
JoeLinux writes "I am soon to marry my true love (a girl! yes! they do exist!). She is a literary geek, whereas I am a gaming/Linux geek. Being the RTFM-style geeks that we are, we have been reading up on marriage, making things work, etc. Unfortunately, all of the references seem to be based around an alpha-male jock and a submissive cheerleader-style wife. A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.). What are some of the pitfalls and successes learned in the course of a more geek-oriented marriage?"
A lot of the references to incompatibility in the books don't apply to us (neglect due to interest in sports, etc.).
Sports is an example, not the only cause of neglect. If your girl is a literary geek, she can probably explain this concept to you. Ask her about it when you've finished a gaming or Linux debugging session which prevented you from installing the bookshelf that you promised her 2 weeks ago.
Being in a similar situation, I'd also be interested in hearing suggestions from married geeks with more XP
It is the universe that makes fun of us all.
Neglect due to interest in World of Warcraft.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
Don't read books to make your marriage work. Don't ask strangers on slashdot like geeks were some sort of alien race. Get advice from people you know who are already married, parents, relatives -- people you know and trust. And then, relax, ignore it all, as the biggest thing is "different strokes for different folks"/"everyone has to learn for themselves".
Small piece of advice.
We geeks find it hard to "get in touch with our emotional side" sometimes...
Concentrate on enjoying each other's company. Enjoy being with each other. Stop trying to analyse the hell out of it and just ENJOY it :)
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
Replace every passage in all the marriage books you've read where it says "Sports" - with "gaming/Linux geek" and you'll have exactly the same result.
However, don't believe everything you read! :-)
Making a marriage work requires three things:
Communication, communication and communication.
Learn how to talk, how to fight, and how to consider the other person, and you'll be fine. Don't try to own your partner and let him/her do things with other people that you can't reasonably do together. Don't be afraid to show your feelings, and talk about little issues before they become big issues. Compromises are inevitable, so don't think of these are a failure on either part.
The single biggest thing that is needed to make a marriage work is simply work. You can't expect a relationship to last without maintenance. Make sure to have time for each other when times are rough, and you'll be fine.
And ultimately, if things eventually stop working, divorce is not really a failure. It's simply an option to be considered if the relationship is hurting either or both parties.
.: Max Romantschuk
I am an engineer (ME), my wife is an engineer (EE).
We have been married for 15 years now and things are good.
1) I dated non engineers and let me tell you those relationships were more "active" in every sense of the word. But you actually tire of it quite quickly because you are constantly trying to figure things out.
2) The relationship becomes pretty constant since both you are pretty constant people. That is a good thing, but as my wife says NEVER take it for granted. Appreciate each and every day.
3) Be there for each other. I seriously mean this one. Be there for the other person through it all. EVEN if your logic says that the other person is wrong.
4) Support the other person. My wife is a director level manager and I have worked for her. Here in Europe some look at that as being a "wuss". After meeting me people quickly realize I am not a wuss, but there is a stigma associated with it. Though times are changing...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
The first rule of seeking relationship advice on Slashdot:
1. Do not seek relationship advice on Slashdot.
What good will that do?
0, 1, 10 ...
My experience: 1. Find out what's important to HER. For instance, birthdays never seemed a big deal to me, but she likes a little bit of a celebration -- nothing fancy, mind, but a few ribbons here & there. 2. Listen beyond the words. Something that doesn't usually bother her might get to her sometimes; find out why she was unhappy to start with. Work, relationship, family, ...
3. Do something unexpected and nice once in a while.
4. Trust her. I know it sounds obvious, but I was hesitant to tell her about some things first. I did, anyway, and eventually found that it's much less a big deal when you're in it together.
Good luck!
I'd guess that you being a Linux geek and she being a literary geek won't have much effect on your marriage. Other things, such as what you each expect from marriage, how you communicate (or whether you communicate at all!), how considerate each is of the other's needs, and so on, are more important. Forget the marriage/relationship books. They're pretty useless, and for the most part sell well because lots of people think that there can be manual for everything. It's not true; some things you just have to learn by doing. I've been happily married for 15 years. It takes patience and work to get through rough spots, but the good times make all that more than worth it.
Don't live by books, live by your brain. Books can help provide inspiration but you're not stupid... your brain knows if/when there's something wrong and how to fix it. People normally run off and cry to their friends in order to be told what they already knew. You know this. You know if the marriage is working or not. You know if you want to / need to work at it or not. To be honest, a marriage you need to "work at" in any way probably wasn't started on the best footing ("I don't really love you any more, darling, but let's work at it"? It's almost like saying "I don't find you sexually attractive any more but let's keep trying and see if I can keep it up" - Oh, and marriages based on sex aren't really marriages).
Ignore therapists, books, courses, "relationship counselling" (Yeurk!), all the other nonsense... live your lives together and be happy for as long as you both can and, if you can't, see what can be done to fix it. Sometimes that means divorce is actually the best way to find happiness for you both... so be it.
"I'm doing this because I read it in a book" comes nowhere near "I'm doing this because I want to make you happy".
Now run off and enjoy married life with your geek girl, you lucky sod.
There is no stock "off the shelf" marriage; every marriage is self-built, like Linux kernel 0.01.
You must learn to modify the source to fix problems that come up. There is no manual, and although there is a large user community, all of them have different systems, and consequently may give you bad advice. At least you have a co-author to help you.
Here is one piece of advice. Neither of you should play timesink online games, such as MMOs, unless you do it together or set clear boundaries about the times when you will play. Otherwise you or your wife will use those games to escape the marriage when it becomes difficult, and avoiding problems will make them worse.
The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
The other underlying principle I'd add is: take the attitude that you're a team, and its you against the world--not necessarily in a combative sense, but in a "we stick together" and an economic (perhaps competative) sense. If you do these two things, you'll do well, and weather just about any storm.
There are other obvious guidelines, like not tearing each other down to your friends (even joking about the ball-and-chain will propogate memes that undermine what you have, so don't do it), not engaging in activity that can result in relationship-destroying behavior that you'll regret--like drunken "boy's nights out" in nightclubs or pick-up joints, or my personal favorite: these idiotic bachelor parties/stag dos that people go on right before they tie the knot (talk about laying the groundwork for a divorce before you're even married) ... but these are all common sense things that are directly derived from the two basic principles above: be absolutely honest with each other even when (or more precisely, especially when) it is difficult, and stick together as a team against the inevitable external pressures that the rest of the world will exert (in whatever form it takes, be it economic, cultural, external tempation, vicious inlaws, jealous exes, or whatever).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
...it could all end in a Geek Tragedy! I'm sorry...
Don't be a fool like I was
Don't go into a coma and hope that problems will fix themselves (they don't).
Tell her that she is special (she is).
Get your ass off the computer chair do stuff with her (she wants you to take part in her activities)
Get out of bed when the alarm goes off, shave and make her breakfast, buy her flowers ones in a while.
If you think that marrying a geek is extremely different than a non geek you are dead wrong. I married a geek girl, and I nearly lost her because I thought she was 90% logic and 10% emotions. I was wrong and now 10 years after our marriage I have just gone through the worst summer ever, and have finally realized that she deserves much more than I have been offering her.
I fell into a vegetable state where I was waiting for things (we were fighting a lot) to get better. Some guys watch sports, other play computer games and some do other shit. No matter what one chooses, all these activities boils down to a low activity veggie state where one resigns and hopes things, in some magical way will get better.
After some serious TLR (Total Life re-engineering) I'm back on track and we are rebuilding our relationship now. All it took was for me to realize that my special little geek girl are as all other girls, they need more than pure logic and reasoning, they need complements and they need to feel that they are special in the way only you can make her feel. A male geek and a female geek has as much in common as a male and a female, while a female geek and a "ordinary" female has almost everything in common.
Someone asking marriage advice on Slashdot (of all places) -> who else can we ask something important? Mmm, probably asking George Bush about achieving world peace!
A picture is worth exactly 1024 words.
I agree completely, throw the books away!
I think people like stereotypes and consequently try to change themselves so they can fit into them - not the other way around. For example, if most successful relationship books deal with caveman-style guys and submissive girls, that's because many people draw comfort from these role models, it's something that they can "aspire" to and those stereotypes can be used to explain away anything and everything that comes up in regard to social issues (no actual insight required).
That's the reason why most people always try to become more jock-like or cheerleader-like as the case may be. If you have typical jock/cheerleader problems, your relationship is perceived as normal, you can then go out and buy books that tell you "it's normal because guys are always that way and girls are always that way", most of them purporting (without a real scientific basis of course) that's how it's always been and evolution forces us to be jocks and cheerleaders anyway. On the other hand, if you have real and deeply special problems, you're perceived as a freak and your issues are quickly attributed to failure to be a real jock or cheerleader.
So you basically have to decide if you want to be a conformist who is striving to be a stereotype or whether you want to be yourself. Either way you'll be paying dearly for the path you choose.
As a geek couple, I can say after 12 + years there are certain real pitfalls.
This may vary for you, but here's a few key items:
Your intellect can be very clever at making up lies, hiding what you really feel, and it basically just gets in the way. This hiding and dissociation from your feelings can take different forms. If you're the kind of guy who tries to be nice and tries to be a good partner, then you may find that you hide your natural anger and hide your resentments. Eventually these will bite you hard. If on the other hand you or your partner are basically quite selfish, lack empathy, and lack a basic goodness, then she or you can do the most outrageously selfish things but rationalize them away using your clever intellect. (I know one woman who would cry "sexist" if you said she was behaving badly, on the basis that had she been a man, you'd have complemented him for being "strong" (some people are educated beyond their intelligence)).
So feeling is very important. But what's also important, and this is beyond therapy now... what is also becoming more important for modern couples is that, once you both accept each other as equals (you're not stereotypical gender roles from the 50s), once you accept each other as equals, doesn't mean you are the same. You still have to be a man and she still has to be a woman, otherwise there is no difference between you, and there is no polarity of attraction, and sex and romance will disappear completely. See David Deida's books for a challenging and difficult slap in the face on this subject. Your woman may often act crazy--she is testing you and she wants to feel your masculine ability to be a solidly dependable rock who can stand there and still love her. Once she knows she can trust you to be a rock, she can relax into her feminine side and blossom and be sexy. And this little drama will repeat itself over and over. If you don't want that, get a best friend and forget about romantic partners.
Dear OP,
clearly you are not the target audience of those books, throw them out. You two are the only ones who know enough about your relationship to suggest anything, but if your mindset is having fun walking through life together, you'll be better off than thinking about all the things that go wrong. You mostly find what you're looking for, you know.
And if you let it get boring, it will be boring, and probably short, too.
Geek marriage is not that different to any other marriage. Three pointers:
Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
Marriage is like a static group in any RPG. The same basic facts apply.
1. You need goals to achieve anything. You need to achieve things to be happy. If one or more of your group is unhappy, the result will inevitably be dissolution of the group. Set goals early, set them often.
2. Whenever undertaking any task it is important to understand each group member's role. Though not strictly necessary, it is good to have a leadership position to orchestrate any support roles. This position may be shifted around the group based on whatever the scenario requires.
3. Eventually you will reach conflict, it's inevitable. Practice care in participating in conflicts. Attempt to understand all party's grievances and complaints and effect a useful resolution. Submit the proposed resolution to the group and hope for a diplomatic reception.
4. Keep the channels of communication open. Be sure all group members understand and approve of any actions prior to taking them. Nobody wants a Leeroy Jenkins in their group!
5. When you wish for your group to grow, the most important prerequisite is always preparation.
6. As your group grows in numbers, avoid favoritism. All members should be treated with respect and given the assistance they need to become fully useful participants.
7. Members of your group are unlikely to be so exclusively! They may still have close ties to the group or groups that nurtured them. Be sure to respect those ties and even assist in maintaining them.
8. That said, members of the group must understand their priorities. Most successful groups have prioritized with their own goals in mind.
9. Finally, you are not the group. And the group is not you. Sometimes you must focus on your own goals. Always take time to solo and be understanding of the need of others to do the same.
Those are just a few tips on successful grouping in World of Wedcraft. Good luck!
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
My fiance and I -- epidemiology and engineering PhD students, respectively -- found this classic text helpful:
Kiersy and Bates
Please Understand Me: Character and Temperament Types
http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Me-Character-Temperament/dp/0960695400
1. Go geocaching. http://www.geocaching.com/ (be geeky outdoors) .. Outdoors, in nature, no books, no pc just you, your spouse and a gps. This will force you to interact, solve problems together which will teach you to solve YOUR problems together..
2. Do "the mariage course" http://relationshipcentral.org/ It almost ended my marriage but made it stronger in the long run. It is very practical because it is adapted to your needs. there are common theme nights where a subject is explained and then you discuss it together. every couple in our course enjoyed and had benefits from different subjects.
Dude, how about a marriage-oriented marriage instead? You're not entering some club, you know.
Honesty is the key. A lot of people will disagree with me there, but if you can't be honest to your effing partner, with whom can you ever be honest then?
When I asked my first girl out, who happens to be my wife now, I told her my views on life and how I wanted and needed a relationship to be (both sexually and not) from the beginning. She happened to agree with what I said. I was honest and she was honest. That's why we've been married for almost four and a half years now and have been together for over seven.
No matter if one of the people involved tends toward submissive or dominant, the important part is that the relationship is built on being equal partners. Equal at least in the right to be happy and get from the relationship what they need. But to make each other happy, one must know what the other needs and what they have trouble dealing with.
I don't know how people can expect to live together for the rest of their lives, ideally, when they don't dare bring up wishes and dreams, fears and basic needs for fear of losing the other. How can people believe that someone whom you're afraid to tell your most important secrets, the things that are such a big part of you, would make a good partner?
The geekyness... what the heck does it matter? Whether you like being called a geek or not, the fact remains that we all have hobbies and interests. Being a geek is merely a label for how widely spread your hobby is (gaming retains its geeky status only through nostalgic means). Can you accept her hobbies? Can she accept yours? If not, you're going to have trouble that has nothing to do with geekyness anyway.
Yep, and if nothing else, trying to understand the other one and talk about stuff, without getting mad, is important. And yeah it takes a lot work sometimes.
Also dont let it get boring, even if it easily goes into that. Do stuff together, even if it doesn't interest you. My gf likes it when I do stuff I dont really like with her (those damn freaking clothing stores argh), and I love it when she tries stuff I like. For example she sometimes play games I like and I drink beer and watch her. She didn't like GTA IV, but Vice City was fun. From FPS games she tried left4dead and liked being infected in versus mode, cos you hided and then suddenly attacked the other team. And for me it was nice watching her play and drink a few beers while on it.
I'm not married but in an years long relationship with her, and I've kinda noticed I've let stuff like that slip and more starting to take it for granted. Pretty much forgot lots of presents and happenings too, or was too busy with other stuff and the relationship has gone a bit down. Luckily not too much tho. But its good to keep things like that around. Stuff you did when you had just met and fell in love, and not just take it granted and start being boring :)
You know, some of us are actually married (with a woman, shock, horror!) and we passed though lots of those pitfalls.
But back on subject. I suggest some NLP training - it's a good stuff if you want to understand other people. I know, lots of you will not agree, but I still believe that the basic parts of it are very useful, relationship wise. Best is that those not only apply to marriage but all kind of relationships.
Then I'd get into some books/audiobooks about negotiations. Only Win-Win stuff. Surprisingly helpful ;)
You can also try to get stuff like "Laugh your way to better marriage". It floats somewhere on intertubes.
Go to elbitz.net and search there. They have lots of cool material. Just stop your urge when you get there and build the ratio as it's quite hard later ;)
Have fun - marriage is to make your life better. If it is not going to make it better - why bother?
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
Give her looks a rating out of 10. Then post that on the fridge. Encourage her to lose some weight to increase her rating. If she objects compare it to levelling up on WoW.
Name her breasts Han and Chewie.
Tell her that everytime you put on your Wedding Ring you hear the voice of Sauron calling you to do evil.
Inform her that her feet are as cute as a hobbits.
When times are rough tell her that you wish you took the blue pill.
Remind her that you are a true geek by not having sex with her unless she accepts money first.
Tell her you hope you both have a kid like Jake Lloyd one day.
I'd disagree with you on those bachelor parties, but then again, only very few people have such a relentless grip on their jealousy as me and my wife do.
I will agree with the honesty, though. You made a good point: Demand it of your partner. In fact, you might have to TEACH it to her in the first place. I married a geek girl, not the cheerleader-type and she still had to be taught that yes, it is okay to tell me the truth, no it will not result in a fight and yes, I do want to hear her opinion.
My wife has had to deal with a mother who thought she had to be like her in order to be an acceptable child. You can imagine how puberty impacted on that relationship, though, so this situation might not necessarily apply to other women. Do not forget, though, that the stereotypes of a beer drinking, football addicted husband and the constantly frustrated and nagging wife come from somewhere. They are so prevalent in our media that, it seems, a lot of girls think that's the way it's supposed to work. Some of them have to literally be retaught.
I've had (... still have ... in a way such relationships never die) a 16 year relationship with a woman. We have one daughter, 11 years old. My advice on marrige is quite simple: Don't marry. Or marry with a 2-inch thick marriage contract. The simple fact that either of the SOs can walk away, with (nearly) no legal commitments holding them back contributes greatly to respecting each other and acknowledging each others sacrafices that where done for a relationship. And on this aspect of issues i'd like to quote this:
"People who are intensly in Love often forget that for it to last you need to actively maintain it. Emotionally and in your attitude towards your significant other."
Every single day. Don't get me wrong: You can marry, if it is for outside reasons. Maybe you have to marry for tax reasons or because you live in a society where only married couples are accepted. Maybe you or your SO is a federal employee and will have to move to a different state whenever superiors say so and there only are exemptions for married couples. However, what you should do - both of you, at the same time and in the same intensity - is treat each other as if you weren't married. Every day. That's easiest to ensure if you simply don't marry or do so with a thick contract that seals details.
Me and her, we've each had our share of affairs on the side lately and we actually console each other when things get rough or someone of us is lovesick about it. However, we have never lost our respect for one another. I went through a solid stretch of of near flat-out neglegt by her for years, and simply the fact that I knew I could walk out of the door at any time had me stick with her and my responsibilies towards our daughter. If you marry, it should be under circumstances under which you both feel comfortable with your self and are sure that you can give what the other expects of you and what is required to make the others life better than if they were alone.
And if you, after all this advice, *do* marry, *don't* spend huge amounts of money on the wedding. Marry, maybe invite your best friends and families to a dinner or party or something, but don't go into huge dept just for a wedding. The positive effect (bragging rights, etc.) wears of quickly and if that's all your doing it for it's pointless to do anyway. And you get the best marriage effect ('My wife' / 'my husband') anyways.
Congratulations on finding the love of your life and my best wishes to both of you!
My 2 Euros.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Make her rewrite the Linux Documentation !
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
So called "geeks" are no different to anyone else. So like anyone else your marriage will be a success if:
1) Your wife has no other man but yourself
2) Your wife should not encourage any other man to make love to her, or kiss or caress her
3) Your wife should remember to kiss and caress you, to honour and obey you and obey your every whim and fancy seven days a week and twice on sundays
4) Your wife should honour your name so that all other women will honour it also
5) Your wife should no provoke you to anger
6) Your wife should not search your pockets or night or annoy you with her hearsays
7) If you are walking in the street with another woman your wife should not shout at you in the street but wait intelligently until you get home where the matter can be dealt with decently.
8) Your wife should neither drink nor smoke
9) Your wife should not commit adultery since if she does she risks forcing you to murder her
10) Your wife should not covet her neighbours dress, nor her shoes, nor her bureau, nor her bed nor her hat nor anything which is hers. Your wife should not call your attention to anything which may be for sale in any stores since you will provide her with everything she needs for her daily purpose.
One thing that I learnt very quickly is that it is worth the effort to set reminders for Birthdays, Wedding-anniversaries, Engagement-anniversaries, Valentines Day et cetera. NOT only on the day itself: 1 month AND 1 week in advance: the month for reservation options for restaurants or gifts that take longer to get, and the 1 week option just in case you somehow did not get to finish the 1-month-idea. And you can just explain that you NEVER would forget $eventfulDay, but somehow are not really good in keeping track of the current date. That she will understand. But you are both German, of is it just you being German, is the wedding taking place in Germany? We Europeans _could_ do with a bit more facts.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
Clearly you don't understand sandwiches at all otherwise you would not have said that. Come back when you can demonstrate that you know what a sandwich actually is.
(but I will anyway.)
No crying.
No getting in touch with your feminine side.
The man's job (geek or otherwise) is the three F's.
Fixing
Freighting
Frickin
The man makes the complex political decisions about whether or not the nation should deploy cruise missiles, bomb anything from orbit, or bail out the banks.
The woman gets to decide what you spend the money on, where you live, how many children to have, where they will be educated, where to go on holiday and anything else not included in the previous sentence.
The hard part:
When the woman makes a remark about something that upsets her you must always resist the temptation to offer a solution. Sympathise.
But most important of all
Be excellent to each other.
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
Intelligent people do not need the kind of rubberstamp advice you find in self-help books. As long you remain honest, open and calm, you are very well off. Not doing stupid thing like playing WoW (ATTN! compare to watching football with you buddies and sipping beer) through your anniversary helps, too.
I can't second this enough. In the 4.5 years I've been married, the ONLY time we ever ran into any real trouble was when I tried to "manage" information. The excuse you'll typically tell yourself if tempted to do this is that it's to "spare her feelings", "you couldn't cope with it then", or "spare us an unnecessary fight". Those are excuses...the real reason is you don't want to deal with her reaction and the fallout. Don't give in to that temptation. Be honest, and demand honesty from your partner. That, and a good dose of compatabiltiy and love, will take you through just about anything).
What's so bad about not wanting to deal with someone's reaction? I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
Small lies, it's what holds relationships together.
If you two don't fit the traditional gender stereotypes, try reading books for gay/lesbian couples.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I suggest some NLP training[...]
What's NLP?
"but in reality a woman with a penis isn't any more attractive to women than it is to men"
You should visit bangkok sometime! :o)
I married my favorite geek 19 years ago, and here are a few of the things I've learned:
Be considerate.
Shut up and listen when she wants to talk.
Respect her opinion.
She's smarter than you are, get over it.
It's more important to be friends than lovers (sex is fun, but no foundation for a marriage).
Give her the remote before you fall asleep.
If she prefers Windows (or a Mac or a different Linux distro), let it go.
Very few things are important enough to argue with your spouse about.
Money is the biggest marital stressor, to avoid this, live well within your means.
Settle disagreements quickly.
Even geeky girls like tasteful jewelry.
Make time to take her out on a date at least once a week.
Don't be an insensitive clod.
This isn't the sig you're looking for... Move along.
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
...trying to understand the other one and talk about stuff, without getting mad...
That is great advice. Also, learning what it is that you can do to show her you love her is important. Note that what you THINK shows her, may not actually be the magic thing(s) she expects. The great part is, at least in my experience, 90% of the women out there won't tell you what these things are; they expect you to somehow just now what they are, because dammit if you really LOVED her you would just know. Asking might work, but usually be the time you ask you are already screwed.
Next up: random subtle hints she drops about things she likes (great for gift giving at various times of the year) that men have absolutely no clue about.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
I hope not. "The Plain Man's Pathway to Heaven" contained very little in the way of gastronomic goodness.
(those damn freaking clothing stores argh)
Fashion show! As long as I go to clothing stores with pretty girls who come out of the damn booth to show me what they look like, I enjoy it.
The traditional way to do this is to get bored out of your skull while the girl stays in the booth. No fun. Ask, nay, tell her to show you what she tries on so you can interact, and you'll enjoy it too.
You can't take the sky from me...
And for $dietys' sake, stay the hell away from journaling filesystems!
The secret is sooo simple ... love , communication, and common life goals. You don't need a manual - and if you think you do - then there is already a problem!
The traditional way to do this is to get bored out of your skull while the girl stays in the booth. No fun. Ask, nay, tell her to show you what she tries on so you can interact, and you'll enjoy it too.
Yeah, I do this and go with her to the booth aswell (which admittedly felt a bit weird at the first times specially if someone looked what they're doing, but ohwell). High heels and shoes and such is hard to comment, other clothing easier tho. But seeing some boobies in the booth helps make the time more enjoyable :)
NLP?? I certainly disagree.
I had this stuff inflicted on me during a management course recently. Being the nerdy little science geek I am I went out to investigate it and discovered the same thing that you will discover if you go out and spend some serious time looking through its underlying claims - that is, that it's mostly pulled directly out of someone's plump rectum. I didn't just take my own word for it - I went to the psychology dept at my local university and checked my findings with senior research staff.
That's not to say that learning to listen isn't incredibly important to keeping a marriage going, and it probably is true that approaching that via NLP, bullshit as the specifics are, is still better than not bothering to get the skillset at all. However, it would probably be more healthy to avoid the obfuscatory layer of mumbo-jumbo. NLP selling organisations can be virtually cult-like, and the 'science' has been recognised as more or less valueless since about the 80s.
Posting anonymously because I have a day-job.
Very, very good advice.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with the last paragraph, provided the first paragraph is properly observed: if you have a history of open honesty (and mutual respect) then there are no hard barriers on behaviour in public - you will both know intuitively what is unacceptable/hurtful/undermining behaviour. Saying that, it's vital to have that well-established foundation of trust and respect before relaxing the rules.
I would add one important piece of advice though: Remember That You Will Both Screw Up. In any close relationship, you will inevitably end up hurting one another from time to time; sometimes in everyday little ways, sometimes in almighty one-off fuck-ups. Patience and forgiveness from both parties are the only medicine for such ills, and when applied liberally and sincerely, the relationship will often be stronger after the fuck-up than before.
Meta will eat itself
Obviously how you approach it depends on the country you live in and the rules, laws and expectations that come from the culture and families you are both marrying into.
The problem with geeky types is that they ofter think there are/should-be rules or tried and tested techniques for doing things. When dealing with other people (apart from the obivousl ones to do with respect and consideration - both ways) there aren't.
For a start, what are your plans for having children? - have you discussed it. How much are your / her family going to be involved? Who's going to give up or continue working? What will you / she do if the partner has an affair - are either of you the jealous type. Don't forget, that people change after marriage (though some, who should: don't). Is the motivation to be married, or to be with the other person (if the latter, why marry at all?). Maybe when you have both sat down and had a full and frank discussion about these, and other topics you will be ready to decide whether ot not to marry.
Finally, remember that when women say "commitment", it frequently means "sacrifice". What are you prepared to give up?
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
At my grandparents' 65th wedding anniversary, my grandfather was asked for the secret to his long marriage. He said, "In any domestic dispute, if it turns out you are right, apologize at once."
you are obviously a divorce lawyer, trying to drum up business
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
I suggest some NLP training
And while you're at it, an astrology course. Knowing someone's zodiac sign really helps in understanding them. /sarcasm
Dude. You're doomed.
If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
Everyone's going to have their own bit of advice, and you have to take it all in aggregate and boil it down. Here are my additions to the pot:
1. The most useful thing in all those self-help books, especially for geeks, is the chapters on communication, and specifically active listening. Not only is this useful in marriage but in the workforce too. I suggest the habit called "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" from David Covey's "The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People".
2. The biggest arguments any couple has will be about money, eventually. Even though you make more money as life goes on, life will cost more, so you'll have more disposable income at the beginning. This is a recipe for an explosion a few years in when you have to reign each others' spending in. Fingers get pointed, etc. Learn to track your finances together. Also, each person should have a set amount of money per week to allocate *as they wish* and the other partner can make no comments on its use. As long as everything fits in the budget, no complaints.
3. The biggest realization for me was that if something is bothering you, then *you* have to take action to fix it, or learn to ignore it. For instance, some people complain about stupid things like their partner leaving the toothpaste cap off. You can't change the other person. That bears repeating: YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON. Either invent a toothpaste tube with a cap that closes itself, or get his and hers tubes, or just forget about it. Same thing goes with cleaning the house. Typically the female is the one complaining that the male doesn't care about {dirty floors, windows, whatever} and she thinks she can change him if she just keeps nagging him. This is a myth that it's always the female though - it can go the other way. Either way, nagging doesn't work, so you just have to take action and do it. Once *both* people realize that, things go a lot smoother. My saying for this is, "expect little, appreciate much".
Good luck!
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
1) As a geek, you might enjoy Robert Heinlein's suggestions in Time Enough for Love ("the Notebooks of Lazarus Long") for their practicality (plus, he trained as an engineer). Things like "budget the luxuries first"; "rub her feet".
2) Some years ago, I was at a conference with my wife -- we had just recently married, and we thought one session looked particularly interesting. It was called "Making long term relationships work" or something similar. The course began with the leader asking who in the room was in a long term relationship. Nearly every hand went up. He then asked us to go round the room and each say who we were and how long we'd been in our relationship. We were par for the course in saying we'd been together for five years and had just got married. The final person in the room answered by saying she wasn't sure if she could really claim to be in a long-term relationship... her husband had died last year after 54 years of marriage. At which point, the course leader turned to the rest of us and said "*That* is a long-term relationship. *That* is the timescale on which you should be looking to make things work. It requires a completely different perspective from how you would normally tend to think about things. How will you survive tragedy? How will you be a parent to your thirty-year old child? What will tie you together with your partner on a permanent basis, no matter the insults flung at it?" It goes beyond learning how to get along, or manage money, or put the lid on the toothpaste -- it's about finding a way to get to 80 together. It's tough, but one of the most worthwhile things you could ever do. Good luck!
Ahh, this reminds me of George's marriage counselling days. The dude really saved our relationship. Nothing keeps a wife satisfied like shock and awe in the bedroom.
There are certain things that are okay to hide, some things that aren't. An example I heard in my Marriage & Family class of the former was during a honeymoon between a man that almost married someone else and a woman that really didn't almost marry anyone else. She snuggled up to him on the beach and asked what he was thinking about, and he answered that he was thinking about what his life would've been like had he married the other woman. Things got cool for a few days that week. A better answer? "I am so glad I married you," the conclusion of his thought. Not a lie, but also a better answer.
I think honesty about little things is incredibly important. Dishonesty about little things ("How have you been?" "What've you been up to?") is cancerous.
What's this? Another weblog? On transit?
I suggest some NLP training
I have to disagree with this. Non-linear programming is not appropriate for a marriage. If you can't express your needs as a set of linear constraints, then you're not trying hard enough. If you can't use the simplex algorithm to resolve resource allocation conflicts, then you're not ready to get married.
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I am an expert in electricity. My father held the chair of applied electricity at the state prision.
Forget the books. Concentrate on being best friends. All of the advice about "communication" and "compatibility" and "caring" will fall right in line ... if you're best friends.
It has worked for us for 15 years. :)
Cogito, igitur comedam pizza.
Get dibs on the remote...
Use your head, can't you, use your head,
You're on earth, there's no cure for that - S. Beckett
I have been an Anesthesiologist for 20 years. I have been fascinated when I see 80 year olds who have been married for 50+ years and they still care about each other. Whenever I have a couple like that, who tearfully kiss goodbye before surgery, I ask what the secret is to being married >50 years. The consistant pattern of advice I find is two things: 1) Be easygoing, compromise. 2) Make each other laugh. I don't know how many times I've heard "He makes me laugh" with people who are married >50 years. So do you make her laugh? Does she make you laugh? Is she willing to compromise a little if you want to do something she isn't in to?
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
I married my high school sweetheart (dated through high school, college, got married after we both graduated.) We're both 37 now, still very happy!
We're like you: I graduated with a BA in physics but am now an IT geek, she studied literature then went on to get a Master's in theology.
I didn't realize they had books on marriage. We didn't even consider them. But over the years we realized some important things:
DON'T DO IT
What?
I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
While I agree there can be a time and a place for the honesty. Nothing has improved my sex life with my wife more than being honest when it's boring, bad, or good. It's how you learn what the other person likes. If you're not honest when it's crap, you keep getting the same crap sex over and over. (At least until you get no sex)
Personally, I think that small lies are what slowly tear a relationship apart. They're all the small things that you quietly resent about your partner, and it's there, under the surface, just waiting for a release. So when the bad things happen, all the small lies come to the surface too. Then it's not just one bad argument, it's all the problems that you've been keeping secret all coming out at the same time.
Here's the deal. It doesn't matter if you're alpha-male-jock or whatever other type. What matters is how well you accept one another and how you deal with problems together. Most of the time, it is the woman that finds the man intolerable and not the other way around. (Yeah, there are exceptions of course) Usually, it's something that a guy does or doesn't do that leads to things becoming rocky and unstable at home and it's largely the weakness of the woman who quite literally chooses to not accept it as part of who you are. (There are also exceptions to this as well... should she accept sex, drug or gambling addiction? hell no! should she accept gaming addiction? hell no! should she accept failing to pay the bills because you spent money on geek crap? hell no!)
So putting aside serious detrimental behaviors, if she can't accept that you're a slob or a neat freak, then you shouldn't get married. And let's be clear on what the whole idea of marriage means in the first place. Don't consult a religious leader. Consult a divorce lawyer! If anyone knows what a marriage is REALLY all about, it's an experienced divorce attorney who has assisted in disassembling a marriage and all the things connecting the two people together in a tight relationship. You may find that in this day and age, that marriage is completely obsolete! A limited power of attorney, as it turns out, is all anyone needs unless one of you is from a foreign country. (I firmly believe that marriage is a legally binding agreement that can and will be used against you in a court of law.)
I have also found that some of the most serious sources of troubled marriages stem from the misconceptions of what marriage is or what function it serves. You'd both better be on the same page when it comes to the preconceptions about marriage religiously, socially and legally because they will lead to stupid friction moving forward. Personally, I have no religion and neither does my wife. That takes out 1/3rd of that problem from the start. Socially, we are on the same page. Legally, I'm fully aware since I have been divorced before (and came out on top).
Some people need to not be married at all. Both of you need to do some hard personality analyses on the matter. How do you balance "self vs relationship"? How do you balance "self vs family"? How do you balance "self vs child/ren"? If you favor yourself too much and are mature enough to admit it to yourself, then you probably shouldn't get married at all.
People too often think of marriage in terms of 30 minute situation comedies or two hour romantic comedies. They also too often think of it as a religious and/or social mandate. Get those misconceptions cleared up before you sign those legal documents. I'd say "read the fine print" but there is no fine print!!! Marriage is a bizarre legal construct that is not defined in any one single law anywhere. It's all over the place and frankly most written law is about divorcing if that tells you anything at all.
And even if you have all of the above completely covered, be prepared for changes that occur down the road. Dynamics and roles shift and change... sometimes abruptly and sometimes so gradually, you don't notice. Be flexible and know your limits so that you don't break when things go too far.
I'll tell you what works for me -- I'm ridiculously easy to get along with. I know myself well and have little trouble explaining myself to others while at the same time, I am very accepting of others. It also helps that it is accepted by my wife that I TRULY suck at remembering dates and what day it is. Having forgotten my own birthday on several occasions was all the proof she needed that I am an honestly a forgetful person when it comes to things like that. (And it's not like my birthday would be hard to remember. It's the first of a month! I'm just not that guy.)
Oh yeah, and don't make "the marriage" the thing... not EVER. If "the marriage" was the thing, then you're both chasing something that doesn'
My experience tells me otherwise. You normally both end up going to bed feeling really shitty, and things get left unsaid. You have a bad night sleep, because you're worried, and wake up the next day feeling crap, thoughts stewing in your head, often blaming the other person. Very often, it's easy to just sweep it under the carpet and things get left unsaid. Overall, things get worse.
Actually, it should be, "Never go to sleep angry." Normally we end up going to bed, and after a few minutes, we're feeling crap, and start discussing rationally.
I'm not saying it's not important to know when to walk away for tempers to cool (that's definitely good advice) but leaving things hanging in the air for any length of time, even for sleep, is not good.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
Add to this:
It's worked for me and my wife for almost 30 years now.
Good luck!
Mod parent up. As a married man myself, I can attest that trying to keep the "don't go to bed angry" myth as a practice can serve to make small, petty disagreements into large scale fights due to the lack of sleep. This gets compounded even further when/if kids are involved and your sleep becomes even more precious.
I'm sure they don't tell you the sex sucked right after you're done ... just as you probably don't tell them it's the arse that makes them look fat not the jeans.
While I agree there can be a time and a place for the honesty. Nothing has improved my sex life with my wife more than being honest when it's boring, bad, or good. It's how you learn what the other person likes. If you're not honest when it's crap, you keep getting the same crap sex over and over. (At least until you get no sex)
I concur, but I sure don't like such a slap in the face as having an orgasm and then hearing "You know honey, that really sucked. I hope you do better next time"
I don't forget to say those three special words: "I am sorry." I'm amazed at how many people in this world have trouble saying they are sorry even when they know they are clearly wrong. (This applies in all relationships, not just marriage.)
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Yeah, some good advice. I'm married, and while my wife isn't geeky, the same "rules" apply in all marriages, IMO:
Best of luck for your future together! I don't regret getting married for a second.
PS. Also, let her win at things, no matter how good you are. Trust me on this one. Oh, and when you ask her if she's okay and she says, "Nothing's wrong.", give her a hug, because something is definitely wrong!
All good pointers. I'd also point out as a more specific to communication, is to let her share her interests. Ideally both of you will get to. I know my wife and I had some rocky starts where she would shut me down when I was trying to talk economics or physics and I would do the same to her when she started trying to talk about the latest romance novel she read. (I don't know why she likes them. She's such an otherwise intelligent person.) Once we talked about it though we both realized that if we were just a touch more tolerant and let the other get our rambling in about our subjects, we were happier. Great tip for this: While she's talking about that thing you don't care enough about, split your attention. Listen to what she's saying so you can respond appropriately, and then start listing the things you love about her in your head. Later you can use this list to do something romantic for her. I know my wife loves hearing these lists of why I love her. Also, it helps when you get those random questions where she asks, "Sweetie, Why do you love me?" from out of nowhere to have already composed a list. Note: When naming things on this list try and do so only a few at a time, if she hears the whole list at once she might start thinking about what wasn't on it.
Remember to 'sudo'
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
agreed.
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
i heard a comedian say it, on tv.
my wife hits me when i say it.
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
it is a sure recipe for disaster.
be honest
you need to be able to talk with your girlfriend/wife on nearly all matters
you need to be able to laugh together, and to laugh about each other
6) Let her do things her way, even if suboptimal. When I heat a can of soup, I pour the can into the soup bowl and microwave for a few minutes. My wife insists on heating the soup in a saucepan, then ladling it into a bowl, thereby using more energy to cook and clean (and serve less soup). I've tried explaining the physics involved but it doesn't take. Live with it.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it."
- H. L. Mencken
Eating your soup cold out of the can is even more efficient. Cooking != physics.
The problem is, the "Yes, dear" strategy is most often used as the path of least resistance. In other words, it is used to short circuit true communication and end a discussion with the least trouble possible. This produces a semblance of peace, but there are long term consequences to someone thinking they are right when they are not, and thinking your spouse is not giving you honest feedback, not to mention damage done in other relationships when your spouse supports you in being irrational or stupid. How does that engender respect? A better solution is to keep talking until you come to a consensus. Much more difficult and much more contentious short term, but long term much less so. You do intend on being married a long time, right?
This space intentionally left blank.
My Advice...don't get married. It's a trap.
What happens when you get married:
1. Sex stops
2. She get's fat (probably you too)
3. All your money starts disappearing for no apparent reason.
4. You will be surrounded by strange and insufferable relatives from some place you have never heard of.
5. You will get to drive the old car.
6. Gaming did you say? That won't last long. "I can't believe you are going to play on the computer AGAIN. You just played last week!"
7. She will start asking you if she looks fat, despite the fact she is perfectly aware of #2
8. She won't cook (See #1) and she won't be able to make a decent dinner.
9. You will have to leave the house when her literary friends come over to discuss the life analogies in some gay French author's book.
10. LAN parties? No Fucking Way in her house!
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
;i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate
You sound like a very sad man.
Well duh. He already said he was married.
90% of the time when she has a problem she wants to talk about, SHE DOES NOT WANT YOU TO SOLVE IT, she wants to TALK about it! They have to vent and discuss and analyze and most of all gossip about the problems they have. Men just want to get things done and if it dose not work fix it. Spending time talking about a problem without the intent to resolve it goes against everything we are made up of, however that is just the way they work.
Still trying to get this right after 17 years marriage (to the same girl) so good luck! Ooh and if you ask them which they want, they will tell you they want it solved, just don't try and offer them advice on how to accomplish that!
That covers nearly everything I was going to post.
There are a lot of little things that look like total bullshit that really make a difference. I can say that, I've been married for almost 15 years now. So I have a little cred here. Always, every single night, ask her how her day went, and ask questions as she goes through it. You know you're doing this right when you can name her boss and at least two co-workers she interacts with daily and describe their personalities to some degree. Once again, sounds like bullshit, but it's a big impact.
There are two styles of conflict resolution. Some couples use direct confrontation, and some negotiation. We negotiate. They key is to find consensus, something you can both agree on completely. If you reach a decision and realize that you didn't win, she didn't win, but you won as a couple, then you're doing it right.
I think it was Heinlein who said "If you're wrong, apologize immediately. If you're right, apologize even faster." A bit harsh, but what he means is don't celebrate when you're right, and downplay it quickly. The problem is, that if you look victorious, she feels like she's lost. And that's not going to end well.
Every day, try to sit down to one meal a day together. Even if it's at McDonalds or something. This is where the "how'd your day go" conversation should happen.
A lot of people will tell you to do everything together. They're wrong. Do what you both enjoy doing together. Do what you don't both enjoy doing apart. I play video games. She knits. I ride my bike. She watches tv. We do cook together, go on road trips together, and a bunch of other stuff. But don't do stuff together just for the sake of doing stuff together. One of you will look bored, and the other will try to rush through things and not enjoy it. And that'll end badly. So just decide to do stuff apart sometimes.
my wife is working on her doctorate in ancient greek history, and I'm posting on /. so you can guess what my proclivities are.
While I don't claim to be the world's leading expert on marriage, my geeky wife and my geeky self have managed to stay together 13 years now and we're still going strong. With that in mind, here are a few things that have saved ME a lot of grief over the years. (And trust me, I learned all of this the hard way.)
1. make time for each other. this sounds obvious, both when my wife and I are both in full-on geek mode (her in her library surrounded by old manuscripts, me in my office surrounded by computers) it can be easy to ignore each other. we schedule time to spend with one another, as terrible as it sounds that we have to schedule it, it really is necessary and that's the only way we remember to do it because we both get sucked into our work to the exclusion of all else.
2. try and find at least one common hobby. I definitely understand how difficult this can be, but make sure you have at least one activity you both like that you can do together. my wife and I play golf together a few times a month, and we go to the gym together a few times a week. sometimes it's a strain on our schedules to do so, but it has to be a priority.
3. this is going to sound exceedingly childish, but it's important: don't forget to make time for intimacy. (that's the grown-up word for fucking). when you have two stressy, busy, career-driven people, it can be really hard to a) make time and b) get in the mood. it can be really easy to laugh this off as silly and then have it edged right out of your schedule, but it only leads to unhappiness on the part of both parties.
4. there will be fighting. prepare for it. no matter how well you get along, you will eventually get pissed off at eachother. this is a fact of life and there's no avoiding it. marriages don't end because people fight, they end because people fight and say things they regret, get too emotional, take out job related frustration on each other, etc. try and see things from her perspective and remember that being right is not always more important than being nice. as a left-brained, type A control freak, I had a very bad time wrapping my head around this one. you don't always have to correct people when they are wrong, no matter how tempting, and your wife is no exception.
5. as awful and stereotypical as this sounds, it's generally true that girls tend to be more sensitive, so watch your mouth. it took me a while to realize that my constant joking around (e.g. calling your coworker a retarded douche when he screws up some code, or telling your friend that he's a monstrous blubbery whale when he eats a lot of nachos) was not always received in the lighthearted way in which it was intended. girls tend to take these kinds of things overly seriously, I have no idea why, so tread carefully.
6. money problems plague most marriages. my wife and I keep our money separate to avoid this. we divide up the bills each month and each pay our share, and we take turns buying groceries. while it might seem ridiculous for husband and wife to have totally separate bank accounts, it has saved me and my wife a lot of arguing. we each spend money as we please (none of this "I need to ask my wife first" bullshit) and we each take responsibility for our share of the shared utilities. ALL of the marriages I have personally seen fail failed because of money trouble and the arguing and backstabbing that goes with it.
7. try to have fun with it and don't take anything too seriously, this advice included. good luck!
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
I have to agree. I always used to apply logical operations on sematic operands (and don't tell me you've never done it: Do you want to wear pants or shorts? Yes!)
This only gets more annoying as other people listen to you over time! Natural Language Processing lets you still answer the question correctly while not pissing of your spouse.
--Edward Dassmesser
I agree that that phrase is less often said than it needs to be said.
But by itself it accomplishes little. It can even be counter-productive. How often do *you* want to hear your loved one tell you "I'm sorry!" for exactly the same thing. Without some commitment to change (and progress thereof) it's really pretty meaningless.
The success to a marriage is simple.
1 - your partner HAS TO be your best friend. The lust and desire you feel will go away at times, only the strong friendship will carry you through those days.
2 - Drop the adversary or competitive crap. It's not a race, it's not a competition, she is not your enemy. Stop that crap that most people do. IF you want to buy a new $1100 motherboard that supports 6 quad core processors and she says no. Ask why. discuss.
3 - drop the "my money" and "your money" bull. it's all your familys money. Every dollar you make is hers, and every dollar she makes is yours. You both have a 100% say in what get's spent where start hiding crap or lying and you are destroying your relationship. you both make decisions about it's use.
4 - Trust, if you cant trust each other 100% right now then stop. Stop the wedding, stop it all. you MUST HAVE complete trust, stronger trust than you ever had in your life. and any damage to that trust will damage your relationship.
5 - You are a complete and utter jerk if you say anything intentionally hurtful to the other person. EPIC FAIL you lose, turn in all your achievements. If you get mean, she will not forget it. The human design does not let go of incredibly hurtful things easily. It's easier to forget physical abuse than verbal or emotional abuse. If you verbally or emotionally abuse each other, you fail.
6 - Trust, Honesty, respect. You are required to do all three at 100%. Dont you fricking dare social engineer the other. That is simply being a Asshat if you cant honestly say , "sweetie I am going downtown to hire 3 hookers and have a 4 way is that ok or do you have somethign else planned?" if you know the answer will be "HELL NO" dont bullshit your way around it to hide your real agenda.
If you cant do all of the above, or try liek hell to do all the above.... then DONT GET MARRIED.
Ir's all about getting rid of every ounce of selfish you have. Selfish is a destructive behavior in a marriage.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Let's take alpart your list.
1 happens only if you married a liar. If she stops sex after you get married then she was faking liking it when you were dating.
2 happens If you have kids, yes she will get fat, but if you will get fat as well you lazy bastard.
3 happens only when you marry a liar that is hiding things from you see #1
4 she feels the same way, your parents are not a treat to her either.
5 Only because you let her.
6 Again, you married a control freak liar. your fault.
7 say yes, be honest.
8 again did she say she could?
9 OMFG shoot me now.
10 I host a MTG event monthly, Lan partys now consist of 4 42" plasmas in the living room with xbox360's or ps3's networked. she usually ends up the top of the heap and pisses off most of my friends.
If you marry someone that is incompatible with you and you lied most of your dating, yes you get what you listed. if you are honest to each other when you date, and you actually date people compatible with you you avoid most of the above.
the one I cant stand.... WTF is it with all the fricking pillows on the bed? we need 2... TWO!!!! not 60 of them!!!!!
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
No - they taste best when cooked IN the can over a trashcan fire.
Proximity to railroad tracks or bridge underpasses seem to add to the taste.
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
A lot of traditional wisdom is honestly some of the best wisdom. When reading books and whatnot, sure it may often be presented in ways that are dated, but there's still a core of truth to much of it. For example:
1) Never go to bed angry. You might go to bed before you solve the problem, but no matter what it is, no matter how bad it is, you can always find a way to hug your wife, kiss her, and tell her that the two of you will be able to work it out. Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
True True! NEVER go to bed angry! EVER!
2) Find a few minutes to connect with your wife every day. Tell her that you love her in a way that's not just a repeat utterance of the phrase (like some people say "Have a good day," at the end of every transaction at the store). Change the word order, change the inflection, make eye contact, and hold her hand - something to indicate that you mean it and that you're not just saying it because it's supposed to be said.
Take it even further. Every time you walk by her, just touch her ass, or brush up against her gently. Something, anything to keep the physical connection going also.
3) Never say the word divorce. Not even once. It doesn't matter how mad you are, that is a word that once spoken you cannot take it back. It represents a fracture that will never heal.
Not even as a threat! NOT EVER!
4) Agree with each other that when you're having an argument which gets particularly heated, it is ok for either person to walk out of the room, and the argument can just wait until tempers have cooled down a bit. Personally I've always had a really bad temper, and it's only through substantial effort that I have learned to not allow it to control me. But I have a breaking point, and because I'm working so hard at controlling my temper by this point already, I go from seemingly relatively calm to white hot don't-later-remember-what-happened rage within a few seconds. When I fear I'm approaching that point, I walk away, and my wife lets me go. This is much harder than it seems, because both people are probably very angry, hurt, and frustrated at this point, and it's hard to set that aside for the moment. When you resume the discussion later (usually not very long, just long enough to cool off some), cooler heads almost always make it much smoother. DO NOT use this as a way to avoid an argument - this is meant to protect your marriage; abusing it is a form of dishonesty, and will cripple its ability to act as a safety valve. When you get to that point, the things you say can be so hurtful that they remain long after the original trifle that the argument was about is forgotten. When you walk out on the argument, you must always return to it, and it really should be the person who walked out who initiates the return.
Truer words have never been spoken! If you feel it's getting that bad, walk away! Things will be said that you can never take back and that will sit and ferment until it turns rancid and there is no fixing it! There will ALWAYS be fights. If you never fight, then there is something wrong!
5) Always put your wife first. Her interests always trump yours, just as they would when you're dating. That might sound like an unbalanced relationship, but when it's reciprocal the decision process is each person advocating for the other. It tends to cause much more level-headed discussions, and it reinforces the strength of your bond because you feel as if your spouse genuinely cares about what's best for you (and you're right about that). Women are much more likely than men to do this naturally, so you may have to work at it. Sometimes you don't get to do what you wanted to do, but if it's actually important to you, then she'll see and understand that and will advocate it for you. Often you'll later discover that it wasn't nearly as important to you as you thought it was at the time.
Here Here! The mo
1. Love one another. That's #1 and it always will be. If there is no mutual love, nothing else matters. Your definition and feelings about love (yes, it's about feelings, not just logic or chemical reactions) might be different from hers, but it's not definable anyway. You'll both know it when you have it. Keep it.
2. Stop reading the books. Books are bullshit. The relationship you create with one another is far beyond what can be defined within the squared-off parameters of some outsider's perspective or opinions. All you're doing is making the people who write those useless things a little more wealthy. In fact, you probably should not be listening to anyone on this site about this, including me, but I'm not charging you. Just remember what I say may be worth what you're paying for it. When all the books talk about "compatibility" and the like, they're ignoring the incredible relationships of polar opposites...I think of Mary Matalin and James Carville as a public example. In my own family, I see a couple who are as politically opposite as you can get, but they worship one another. Sometimes, it's not about being compatible, but loving and accepting someone, even if they're different.
3. Here's some man advice: listen. Trust me on this one...don't ever shut her off, no matter how boring the subject matter is, and especially if she wants to vent (yes, even about you). You can have your say when the time comes, but you have to learn to listen to her, showing interest in what she has to say. Always. Even if you don't agree. If you can do this, it will go a long way to your marriage lasting forever. This doesn't mean caving in or compromising. She needs to do the same thing. But men seem to have an issue with this...believe me, I do at times...but this is something that most women wish their men did better. Doing it isn't difficult. The effort you make will be appreciated in spades.
4. Remember that things work both ways. It's a marriage, not a game. You don't push the stick and expect her to move the way you want when you want. Same thing for her. If you like something, tell her. Then find out what she likes and do it. In all things, from movies to leisure to TV to sex. Everything. You cannot get the things you want from a relationship if you're not willing to share that responsibility. Neither can she.
5. If you value your relationship and you truly love her, be ready for fight for her, hard. I hope that you never have a reason to do this, but you have to be willing to give it all up for her if that moment comes. I'm not speaking just of "fighting" in the physical sense, but emotionally, romantically, spiritually, whatever. In the end, the fight may be futile, but you have to be willing to go as far as necessary if you value the relationship and want to preserve it, even save it. Some people stay together a long, long time, both knowing that love and devotion are there. But sometimes, one party doesn't realize the depths of love and devotion the other has, because words and physical gestures are not often enough to express it. The day may come when you really have to reach down for this, so be prepared for it.
Now, the cynics here might read this and laugh and call it bullshit, but I'm just trying to offer some words based on my personal experiences. Just for disclosure's sake, I'm the geek (professionally) and she's a school administrator. She's not a "geek" in the usual definitions of the term, but she's smart, beautiful, and a superb human being. I am as devoted to her now as I was when I first saw her, 36 years ago, when we were seniors in high school. Next month will be our 30th wedding anniversary. Hope that's evidence of experience.
Joe Dougherty, Florida, USA
The words I thought I brought, I left behind. So, never mind.
Don't be a jerk. When my fiance and I bought our house, I REQUESTED we set up a LAN party room in the basement. He was obviously happy with that. And I cook for him. And we have plenty of sex. I assume you don't.
First off, being "in love" with someone is a pretty messed up mental state which often blinds people to the faults and realities of the other person. This state of being "in love" can last a couple of years - though it does last far longer for some folks. The biology of this emotional state is to get two people who would otherwise not hook up, to have kids. Essentially, love blinds you to the faults (large and small) of the other person so that you are willing to make an eternal commitment to the other person.
1. Sex in relationships often diminishes regardless of the honesty of the people involved mostly because the female does not have the same sex drive as the male. Other factors contribute to the decrease in sex: medications (such as the birth control pill, anxiety medications, etc.), time stresses (got married and now you are both focuses on earning money to pay for the mortagage), and the negative emotional baggage that builds up over time. Sure, you love her now, and the fact that she won't do the dishes until the last dish is dirty doesn't bother you, but it will bother you a lot three years from now when you come home from an exhausting day of work related hell to find that all of the fucking cups are dirty. You won't get confrontational about it then because you are TIRED and it's a small thing. But sand is a small thing, and it can irritate the hell out of you. And after you have kids. . . sex is a challenge because nothing on earth kills the moment like the sound of your offspring opening the door for . . . a drink of water.
2. Weight gain happens because your metabolism changes and as you get older the work you do becomes less and less physical.
3. You money stops going where you wanted it to go when you were single. That causes resentment because no matter what, marriage does not change WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU LIKE. Don't expect her to change either. The only thing that changes people of either sex is trauma - emotional, physical trauma.
4. Relatives . . . mine are strange and insufferable. I like my in laws better.
5. My spouse drives the vehicle I don't want to drive. Right now, I drive the new truck and she drives the old civic. When we bought the SUV, she drove it, because I liked driving the protege better, of course she wanted to drive it.
6. Neglecting your spouse because you play HALO, or WOW 80 hours per week will cause just as much trouble as if you spent 90 hours per week working came home and watched football. It's the not being fair to the other person and forgetting that they need you to participate in their emotional well being part that cause the trouble.
7. Yes, she will ask. You will lie about it.
8. Learn to cook well.
9 & 10. Love is blinding so you'd better be sure she's being honest. If she likes to do the same things you like to do then you're doing pretty well. Otherwise, you'll need some win-win negotiations.
Honesty is the most important factor. If a person is brave enough to be honest with you, and very much wants to be a part of your life and vice versa, great. Beware though, the deceiver, because like a cheater, a liar keeps on lying.
Been there, done that, have the tee-shirt.
Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
Have fun - marriage is to make your life better. If it is not going to make it better - why bother?
alimony
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
See #1. You're not using them right ;)
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Going to bed angry breeds resentment.
ain't that the truth. in my case, it was 18 years of resentment. and then I had to pay to send resentment to college.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
As a FEMALE geek who met her husband via Slashdot, there are a few things which have been said over and over, but they're important.
-- You're not that good of a liar. Therefore, if something is bothering you, you can try to hide it in order to spare your partner's feelings, but bottom line, just as you're not that good of a liar, your partner isn't stupid. So just get it out, it's easier and quicker and will result in fewer hurt feelings.
-- Realize that no matter how geeky you both are, you are different. Different things cause us to be stressed, and one of the important components of a relationship is realizing what things won't cause panic in yourself but will in your spouse and proactively helping your spouse through that.
-- Most importantly, remember why you're marrying her. Not only do you have lust for her, and love for her, you LIKE her as a person. You find her beautiful, brilliant, funny. So when she's left her dirty dishes in the sink for the millionth time in favour of reading a book, shake your head and smile, because that's part of who she is. Just like how she's going to tolerate how stinky you get during your WoW binges. Yes, these things are minor annoyances, and over time, she'll realize she can do the dishes and THEN read, and you'll make sure to shower prior to that huge raid, but don't let the little things get in the way of that most important thing. There's a reason you're marrying her, because you like her, love her, feel lust for her. Don't ever forget that.
Far too many marriages fail, and while people cite many things, it often boils down to one or both partners in the marriage just plain not being NICE to the person they claim to love.
Wow, bitter much? I've been happily married for 5 years now and disagree with every one of Sycodon's points.
Sex does not stop just because you get married; if you had a strong sex life while you were dating, you will have a strong sex life whilst married. You'll still have time to game and to pursue your interests, just as she will still pursue hers. Marriage, when it comes right down to it, changes nothing. It's merely a symbol that two people, who already know that they love each other and want to spend their lives together, use to let the rest of us know those facts. Marriage changes nothing.
Kids, on the other hand, change everything...
It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.
-Voltaire
Yep -
Rule 1: She is always right, you are always wrong.
Just simply say "Yes dear" and move on.
Rule 2: See Rule 1
Rule 3: How did you get here??? Go back to Rule 1 NOW!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Also, she doesn't want to hear a simple "I'm sorry." That could mean "I'm sorry that you're mad, but I have no idea why you're mad." You need to add a verbal proof to your conclusion. "I'm sorry. I know you feel taken for granted when I don't call to say that I'm going to be late. I know that you worry when I don't arrive when I say I will." Don't feel compelled to add, "But I feel the same when you don't call, and you don't see me having a fit." That's not helpful.
but you can boil it all down to "you can be right, or you can be happy."
The reason that is insightful is because in a relationship most arguments are not about facts - they are about feelings. If you "win" an argument over feelings, you are basically saying 'your feelings are worth less than mine'. It's ok to stand your ground when it is truly important but for $diety's sake, pick your battles. Do NOT let your ego get in the way of what's really important to you, which *should* be each other. You are going to fight from time to time but why fight over anything you don't really care about? It is ok to point out to your wife that her behavior has hurt your feelings and, believe it or not, most women respond very well to such an admission. If you know you aren't being rational but you feel strongly about some non-critical thing anyway, acknowledge that and *ask* for your spouse to cut you some slack. Usually they will unless you are really being ridiculous.
Some other stuff:
i'm nearly 100% certain that it's accurate.
I've known my wife for 20 years. Yeah, there's more than a little truth in it - but not for the reason people think. Argue the facts but take great care when arguing feelings. Most guys seem to have trouble separating the two.
1) Money. The largest contributor to failed marriages. How are you going to deal with it? One bank account? One each? Three (two personal accounts and a shared account for shared expenses)? Remember that it's important for each of you to be able to spend some discretionary money on things like coffee, lunch and a more substantial amount on gifts. No one likes to have to ask for money each week. And do you really want to have to ask for $200? "What do you need it for?" "Oh, I wanted to get you those earrings you wanted as a surprise birthday gift." Discuss how you are going to deal with major expenses. If you buy a house, are you going to spend every last bit of your discretionary income to get the fancier house? Or are you going to not exceed 30% of your income so that you still have some breathing room? How much will you save every month? What if someone wants to go to school or quit work to take care of a baby? These are the things that kill a marriage later. E.g. Couple buys expensive house. Can't afford to save any money. Husband continues to charge expensive toys for himself because he feels "poor" if he doesn't. Wife is exasperated. Husband must work overtime every chance he gets, so he feels exasperated too. Both wonder if they married the right person.
2) Kids. Don't say you want them if you don't. Be honest now or miserable later. How do you want to raise them? Do you want a parent to be able to stay home and raise them? Are you willing and able to make those sacrifices? When do you want to have them? Are you willing to spend thousands of dollars for fertility treatments if necessary? How will you discipline them? What kind of schooling? Will you raise them in a religion? Discuss this issue thoroughly and honestly.
3) Communication. Others have already said this one, but it is huge even if cliched. If you can't talk about things opening and honestly with each other, one or both of you are doomed to misery. Hopefully you already have this down if you're affianced, but lots don't. You've got to be able to bring up difficult topics with your spouse and have to know that your partner will be able to listen objectively and discuss rationally with you. If you're afraid to bring up a topic because of you're partner's reaction, that's bad and a potential trouble spot waiting to erupt. Likewise, if there are any topics that you have an unshakeable position on, you'd better be sure that your partner really agrees with you and isn't just afraid to disagree. At some point something (like a child) may make her stick up for her own beliefs which end up diametrically opposed to yours. This usually ends badly.
Why the hell anyone would ever need a class to teach them this is beyond me.
I would add some more -- the big relationship breakers:
#1: Don't cheat. This sounds obvious, but...
#2: Don't think that you could never cheat. Cheating in marriage is incredibly common, and most people who ended up cheating were people who thought that they could never cheat on their spouse. Recognizing that humans are hardwired to be at risk for cheating, that humans are still capable of falling deeply in love with someone other than their spouse during marriage, is the first step toward prevention. The second step is if you develop feelings toward someone else or someone else develops feelings toward you, end contact with that person immediately. The absolute worst thing you can do is to discuss your feelings with them; that will only amplify the feelings, especially if they reciprocate.
#3: Avoid spouse-approved sexual experimentation involving others (X-somes, etc) and so-called "open relationships". They impose too great of a risk for devolving into emotional attachments with the others that can strain the original relationship or unintentionally causing resent by your partner, even when both parties begin by insisting that they're okay with it. Follow the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
#4: Stay in tune with your spouse's needs. Absolutely do NOT expect that this will just happen on its own. Talk with your spouse at least once a month about their feelings, whether they're happy with their life, etc. It's an awkward topic to bring up, so most people just avoid it -- but that just leads to people suppressing the things that they're unhappy with. And when they're not having a need met by the relationship, they're at risk for turning elsewhere to get that need met. Don't let these conversations lapse as the relationship goes on; they become more important with time, not less!
#5: Help your spouse stay in touch with your needs. Don't pester, and be very gentle about it, but if you have a long-running issue, bring it up. If it's a sensitive subject, use extra caution when talking about it. However, don't let resentment on some issue fester inside of you.
#6: Money is the root of all evil. In most divorces, money is at least a partial cause. In particular, the issue is debt. Buy a smaller home, fewer cars, take fewer vacations, etc than you think you can afford, keep off of ebay, etc, and you'll relieve a lot of that potential monetary strain by keeping your debt levels low to begin with. The most stressful situation is when you're already deep in debt and you find that you need something expensive, be it replacing an air conditioner, medical bills, or whatnot.
Best of luck!
Aeris Died For Your Sins.
This is not cynical... really.
As someone currently going through a divorce (mostly amicable), I have come to the conclusion that starting at the end can be very instructional. Sit down and write your separation agreement. Who gets what part of the pension/401k/RRSPs etc. Who gets the house, does the house get sold? Who gets spousal support and with whom will the children live. Set aside $20,000 for lawyers if you have a small agreement and set aside $50,000 and 4 years for big disagreements. And yes, this is money that you will never see again, and gains you very little.
Write down moving restrictions around children, this means that you probably can't easily leave the city you separate in because it is unlikely that your children will want your near, and you will want to be near your children.
Set aside an extra $20,000 dollars for extra transportation since you won't be sharing a vehicle any longer.
If you make more than your spouse, how much will you pay in spousal support. Look forward to a dramatically reduced lifestyle, since about 1/2 of your pay will no longer be yours for at least the first year of separation and couple of years of spousal support.
Set aside money for your mid-life crisis. It really doesn't matter how much, but make sure it is a percentage of your current gross, and expect you both to spend it between your 34th and 44th years.. say 10% of gross for four years. This is valid for those getting a divorce or not.
Set aside now, $4000/year for couples/your counseling to help you deal with the grief of the failed relationship/ job/ life you will experience.
And finally, write up a prenuptial agreement with a lawyer now. Both of you. Pay a lawyer to help you both write it. Marriages are expenses, divorces are an endless expense, know the risks.
Oh.. and Congratulations!! *throws rice*
p.s. If you read this and say "oh.. this doesn't apply to us" think again.
Q. What is Calvin's monster snowman called? A. The Torment Of Existence Weighed Against The Horror of Non Being
Gottman does actual, scientific research on marriages. He provides "evidence-based" advice, and it's vastly different than your average self-help book. I learned about him from my father, a marriage and family therapist... my wife and I haven't had any really serious trouble in the 14 years we've been married, and I credit Gottman's books with a big part of that.
One of the counter-intuitive things Gottman says is that contrary to most advice books, "good communication" isn't necessary for a happy marriage. If a husband and wife don't respect each other, "good communication" will just enable them to communicate their disdain more effectively. And he found plenty of happy couples who had terrible communication by regular self-help standards. It's fascinating stuff.
Did I mention communication? I can't stress how important it is to talk.
(Based on my nine-year marriage to a wonderful anime geek, and observation of other couples)
As a geek husband to a nerd wife - I can personally say that traditional marriage advice isn't as much help as some might suggest. However, I've also found that it's really quite easy and very rewarding if you can quickly work out the following details...
:-)
1) Fight well. I can't stress this enough, while arguing well with normal people is certainly important - arguing well with a fellow geek is imperative. Whether you are arguing about who the better Star Trek captain is, or who should do the dishes that night - geeks have strong opinions on all things that are generally based on well thought out logic. Chances are, in most situations you are both right according to your viewpoints. Learning to fight in a way that acknowledges that the fight is about a difference in opinion rather than a right/wrong dichotomy is the best way to maintain a good relationship. Keeping your cool and fighting on a logical basis will enable both of you to demonstrate respect for the other person's knowledge and experience. Of course, many fights are based on emotions that you don't fully understand but need to express - and understanding when this is occurring and to not take offense to these moments is also important. On the occasions that I yell at my wife - she almost immediately closes up and stops talking. She has confided to me that during these moments she simply thinks "wow, that is one angry monkey" and stops talking to give the "monkey brain" time to express itself.
2) Work together. Not necessarily at a job, but working together really builds a collective "us vs. them" attitude - even when "them" is the grass or laundry. Traditional sex roles don't really apply in a geek marriage (except of course, where they do) - so division of labor either doesn't exist or is negotiated explicitly. While division of labor is important the times that you work together are the moments that you really appreciate the contributions of the other (and geeks love to feel appreciated).
3) Unless otherwise stated, the ideas you read in books about how to make your wife feel special are full of crap (for a geek marriage). Yes, my wife likes flowers - but she'd return jewelry or any of the other varied objects of affection. The bad thing about this is that the traditional gifts are pretty worthless to her, so books don't help you. The good news is, she recognizes that time spent together is the best gift - since we both have hobbies that we might be doing otherwise. Stepping aside from a match of L4D and having a nice home cooked dinner together carries the same weight as other less practical gift giving might carry for other people.
4) You may find that some of the things that "normal" (boring?) wives do, simply don't happen. My wife hates to shop. I hate to shop. We rarely actually have new things like clothes because of it. While it's occasionally annoying to shop for my own underwear, it also means we never have to have a discussion about wasting money. It doesn't happen - except maybe for Transformers.
5) I asked my wife this question over lunch to see if she had any particular advice. He answer was rather poignant I think. "Two geeks getting married? They won't have any problems at all" I have to thank her for such unbridled optimism. She then followed it up with "He does know that actual emotion being expressed by either side is rare though, right? I hate emotional people." Quite right honey, quite right
6) Almost forgot! give them time alone when they want/need it. They have their own projects they want to do - give them the independence to accomplish them and she'll give your yours.
Bollocks. If it is bed time and you are angry, your tiredness is making you even more angry and irrational. If you just go to bed, half the time you will not even remember that you were angry once morning comes. Just go to bed.
Read this guy's comment. He explained it well.
The problem is that you're misunderstanding "don't go to bed angry." The point isn't, "Keep talking about it till you resolve the problem." The point is, stop, take stock, let go of the angry feeling, and commit to working it out together later.
Of course, it'll help resolve the argument if you don't wait for bedtime to do this. Make it part of your approach to every argument, as soon as you realize that you're letting anger get the best of you.
Disclaimer: I've never been married. My apologies if I'm oversimplifying because of that. But this seems like a pretty wise general principle, at least.
...and here's my best advice:
Be prepared for her to not get the reference on your jokes, and vice versa. And don't write her love poems in perl.. She won't get it.
Try to read a book she likes and discuss it with her. If she wants to reciprocate this, recommend a book she might actually like (i.e. probably not Cryptonomicon, despite its awesomeness)
Figure the rest out for yourself! You're geeks, that's what you do!
The only valid advice is that there is no valid advice.
People are not machines, you can't open a book, like if it was a manual, and find all the pearls of wisdom there.
Marriage is like any other human relationship (really) and for that reason no amount of advice will prepare you about how to progress that relationship.
Stop reading, start thinking and feeling.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
my god man.. have you seen how geeks can fight over big things, like linux distros, coding styles and typefaces? now crank that up to two peopel forced to cohabitate and then any little pedantic thing can be the source of legendary flame wars.
I mean, lets face it, we don't fight fair, now can you imagine getting your arm twisted by a literary geek "Admit Caslon Pro pwns Helvetica or no sex!"
yeah, that's the stuff of nightmares.
Have you ever considered... You know... Talking to her?
1. Determine what you each like and do at least some of that each week.
2. Determine what you like doing together and do at least some of that each week.
3. Make sure finances don't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
4. Make sure housework doesn't get in the way of both of you having a good time.
5. If something changes, find an equitable solution together and stick to it.
There. That's it. This has served me and my wife for 9 years and counting.
White lies are what stupid people tell because they can't figure out how to tell truth gently.
Do you love that (really ugly fucking sweater) I gave you? Not really, grandmother, but I love you!
What do you think of (outfit that accentuates every single flaw of a person's figure)? You know I love the way you look, but this outfit doesn't really seem to suit your look.
At work they made me so mad I (did something really childish in response to a stupid coworker) - what do you think? It's great that you stand up for yourself - you always have a plan. What is your plan for handling the blowback if any of those idiots get upset?
All of those are honest but they are said in a way that is kind and speaks to the core issue. Allowing someone to look like a fool when they were counting on you for honesty is incredibly cruel.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.