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In the UK, a Plan To Criminalize Illegal Downloaders

krou writes "It looks like the launch of the UK Pirate Party came not a moment too soon. The Independent reports that Business Secretary Lord Mandelson is going to take a hard-line stance to preserve copyright after intense lobbying by the music and film industry. 'Under the proposed laws, Ofcom, the industry regulator, would be given powers to require Internet service providers to collect information on those who downloaded pirate material. The data would be anonymous, but serious repeat infringers would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers.' Prospective punishments included restricting internet access, either slowing down an offender's broadband or disconnecting them altogether, and fines up to £50,000. The Pirate Party came out against the scheme, calling it a gross invasion of civil liberties, while Tom Watson, the former minister for digital engagement, spoke out against the move, saying that the government should stop trying criminalize downloaders just so as to 'restore 20th-century incumbents to their position of power,' but should instead be 'coming up with interventions that will nurture 21st-century creative talent.'"

382 comments

  1. Mandelson by Canazza · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lord Mandelson. It *is* a villainous name. He's a slimy horrible member of the undead. He just keeps coming back...

    --
    It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    1. Re:Mandelson by krou · · Score: 5, Funny

      As Frankie Boyle said recently on Mock the Week, "Who made this guy a Lord, the Sith?"

      My other favourite was, "Mandelson's back from his summer vacation - what they don't tell you is he stopped on his way back to visit his parents ... in Mordor."

      --
      'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
    2. Re:Mandelson by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Informative

      It does sound like a villain name out of a cheesy crossover between James Bond and DC comics, doesn't it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Mandelson by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe he was a Grand Vizier in a previous incarnation.

      p.s. somehow Grand Viziers tend to be portrayed rather "unsympathetically" in books and films, wonder why :).

      --
    4. Re:Mandelson by damburger · · Score: 1

      It isn't helped by the fact he really looks like Hitler. Honestly, draw a toothbrush mustache on any picture of him. Its freaky.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    5. Re:Mandelson by bs7rphb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What constantly astounds me about Mandelson is the lack of furore about the fact that he's unelected. We didn't vote for this man. How the hell did he get to be running the country?

    6. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Put slimebag Mandelson into perspective...

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/471585.stm
      "Mr Mandelson resigned from the Cabinet in December last year after it was revealed he took a secret £373,000 home loan from his ministerial colleague, Geoffrey Robinson, who also resigned over the affair."

      Pulled in a few favors and got away with mortgage fraud on the mortgage application form by not declaring the secret loan. Anyone else would be in prison for that fraud.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1210506.stm
      "Peter Mandelson and Europe Minister Keith Vaz have been cleared of wrongdoing by the Hammond inquiry into the Hinduja passport affair. The inquiry into the circumstances that led to Mr Mandelson's resignation in January accepted that he had not deliberately lied about making a call to a Home Office minister. Secondly it found there was no connection between the Hindujas' donation to the Dome and their successful applications for citizenship."

      Pulled in a few favors, got away with arranging a passport for a Labour donor, whitewashes inquiry into affair.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1205049/Lapping-sun-super-rich-friends--Mandy-man-whos-supposed-running-country.html
      Story seems to have been strangely deleted and not in anyone's cache about Mandelson living it up on a rich benefactors behalf.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1207060/Mandelson-met-Gaddafis-son-Corfu-ahead-Lockerbie-bomber-release-talks.html
      "Lord Mandelson faces the prospect of a sleaze investigation after he met Colonel Gaddafi's son days before it emerged that the Lockerbie bomber was to be freed."

      Now reports that the alleged bomber may be freed on compassionate grounds.

    7. Re:Mandelson by Wowsers · · Score: 1
      --
      Take Nobody's Word For It.
    8. Re:Mandelson by MindKata · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "It isn't helped by the fact he really looks like Hitler."

      Its funny but also somewhat scary you say that, because for years I've thought he not only looked like but also behaved very much like Heinrich Himmler. At times I find Mandelson a truly scary character because he seems to have immense political power behind the scenes. Time and time again he has been linked with corruption. He has even been thrown out of Government twice, yet he is back for a 3rd time and within months of being back, somehow he has one of the most powerful jobs in New Labour. He must have some very powerful friends and considering the speed he has got back to such a powerful position, I wonder if he has also enough dirt on other MPs to blackmail and force himself back into such power. In some ways he is just as manipulative and controlling as Heinrich Himmler was. I think if Mandelson ever got anymore political power, He would create a nightmare country with him at the center of power.

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
    9. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Fuck me but some people need a sense of perspective. Yes, Mandelson is corrupt scum, but comparing him with Himmler? You're the kind of wanker who'd compare Tory Bliar with Hitler.

      Tosser. Read some fucking history books and get a grip.

    10. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is part of the executive, we don't elect the executive.

    11. Re:Mandelson by Canazza · · Score: 1

      He's running the country because everyone else has swine flu

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    12. Re:Mandelson by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      and controlling as Heinrich Himmler was. I think if Mandelson ever got anymore political power, He would create a nightmare country with him at the center of power.

      Welcome to Mendelsonia.

      Population: *Your security code isn't high enough to access that information*

    13. Re:Mandelson by metageek · · Score: 0

      the other one that is supposed to be in charge was also not elected... The guy who was actually elected has retired somewhere between Rome and Jerusalem

      --
      metageek
    14. Re:Mandelson by FourthAge · · Score: 5, Informative

      Himmler is close, but both I and Mandelson himself think that Stalin's henchman Lavrentiy Beria is a closer fit:

      "You're a kind of Trotsky figure," said a fellow guest.

      "Oh no," said Lord Mandelson. "I'm far more of a Beria."

      Beria is the nasty version of Himmler, as you will find if you read about his activities as Stalin's secret police chief. What sort of man would find a comparison with mass murderers like Trotsky and Beria flattering and amusing? A former member of the Young Communist League, perhaps? But I'm sure he abandoned the Marxist ideology years ago, just like the rest of New Labour. You know, when they became "right wing" like the BBC says. <Hollow Laughter>.

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
    15. Re:Mandelson by FourthAge · · Score: 1

      Interesting that you should mention a vanished newspaper article that criticised Mandelson.

      A while back I tried to find a quotation from Mandelson in which he said that "we now live in the post-democratic age". It was reported in a newspaper. He said it while working as a European Commissioner.

      Weirdly, the original quotation is nowhere to be found. It turns up on blogs and so on, but there's no source.

      I guess I must have been mistaken in ever believing that it existed. The Commissar vanishes. The lie becomes truth and the erasure is forgotten.

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
    16. Re:Mandelson by damburger · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Your word is all we have to go on, and reading the paranoid, strawman-bashing, slogan-ridden rant in your sig really diminishes the value of that. If you think everyone who doesn't kneel at the alter of the Invisible Hand is a dirty evil Socialist and will crush your freedom. Please.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    17. Re:Mandelson by __aaygcu1291 · · Score: 1

      Godwin proved correct early today!

    18. Re:Mandelson by d3ac0n · · Score: 4, Funny

      Actually, his name reminds me of THIS.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    19. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never liked this slimey cretinous old toad, but what makes my blood boil the most is that this guy wields so much power over the country and ISN'T EVEN F**KING ELECTED. I mean, he's even stood in for the PM! Of course, Gordie wasn't elected to the post of PM either (not that us Brits are officially given the privilege of choosing)

      So much for British democracy!

    20. Re:Mandelson by Tenebrarum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Who made this guy a Lord, the Sith?"

      Quite. The "man" is a disgrace to the Lords. I wish there were a way to have him kicked out....

    21. Re:Mandelson by d3ac0n · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your word is all we have to go on, and reading the paranoid, strawman-bashing, slogan-ridden rant in your sig really diminishes the value of that. If you think everyone who doesn't kneel at the alter of the Invisible Hand is a dirty evil Socialist and will crush your freedom. Please.

      Actually, I just read through the essay linked at his sig and found it to be measured, intelligent, and well researched with multiple links to sources and extensive explanation and footnoting.

      Indeed, I wish that more people would put as much thought and care into their opinions as FourthAge has.

      Of course, if you are a proponent of some of the ideologies that he opposes, which, based on your statement it would seem you are, you do yourself no favors by indulging in ad-hominem attacks. It merely shows that you have no substantive argument to make in support of your own ideology and must resort to attacking the messenger to try and silence him. Sad, really.

      At any rate, I have "Friended" FourthAge as he is a Slashdot contributor well worth following. I would recommend him to any reader here.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    22. Re:Mandelson by damburger · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Of course, if you are a proponent of some of the ideologies that he opposes...

      Here is the core of your post, and the problem you seem to have missed.

      FourthAge, and you as someone who approves of his writing, use a massively broad label of 'soclialism' which includes everything that doesn't fit into the narrow ideology of the market, from environmentalism to Stalinism. With this handy little ideological stick, he can accuse anybody who doesn't think capitalism is the ultimate form of human organisation (which is an absurd suggestion, by the way) of wanting to murder Ukrainians.

      This kind of us/them division is not measured, intelligent, and the level of links are research are irrelevant (cherry picking data and linking to other nutters is not at all hard). The linking together of the 'other' under a single name and then associating that name with evil is one of the techniques used by cults to enforce obedience.

      Incidentally, I made no attempt to silence him. I simply responded to him. Try to make the distinction before you shoot your mouth off.

      Have fun in your cult, asshole.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    23. Re:Mandelson by FourthAge · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The funny thing is that I probably used to be exactly like you. I probably would have agreed with everything you said, and posted a similar flame of someone who disagreed.

      Everybody in Britain is a socialist by default, because that faith is preached by the television and the schools. It has been for decades. That is why it is so hard to convince anyone to reassess their faith. And yet, apostates do exist. I am one of them. If I can convince just one British person to start thinking about why people like Mandelson behave as they do, why the media lets them get away with it, and why the country is in such a mess, then I will have succeeded.

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
    24. Re:Mandelson by damburger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The funny thing is that I probably used to be exactly like you. I probably would have agreed with everything you said, and posted a similar flame of someone who disagreed.

      You know nothing about me you patronising cocksucker. The old chestnut of 'when you get older you will understand' is just an excuse to avoid addressing somebodies arguments on their own merit.

      Everybody in Britain is a socialist by default, because that faith is preached by the television and the schools. It has been for decades. That is why it is so hard to convince anyone to reassess their faith. And yet, apostates do exist. I am one of them.

      Socialism (by which you mean, anything not pure capitalism) is a faith? But I suppose YOUR views are founded on pure logic and reason? Logic and reason that will, regardless of the evidence your are presented with, always vindicate capitalism? You really haven't taken a hard look at yourself have you?

      If I can convince just one British person to start thinking about why people like Mandelson behave as they do, why the media lets them get away with it, and why the country is in such a mess, then I will have succeeded.

      The fact you classify Mandelson as a socialist shows just how far gone your 'thinking' is. After 30 years of Thatcherism, your idiotic prescription is more Thatcherism, based on the premise that every bad politician must be a 'socialist'.

      You clearly consider yourself an intellectual, privy to a great truth that the other 'sheep' just cannot see. There are some people who believe this, and is true. There are many more people who believe this, and are medicore minds wearing tinfoil helmets. Make an honest appraisal of the stats and work out which you are.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    25. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Odd, because I haven't seen any serious advocacy of socialism in mainstream Britain outside the occasional opinion piece in the Guardian. There are no noticeable socialist politicians, or if there are they have bugger all influence.

      I certainly can't see what Mandleson has to do with socialism.

    26. Re:Mandelson by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      He is corrupt, that's a given...
      However, he has nowhere near the level of power and influence that Hitler did in his day... Who's to say what he would do if given the power to do so?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    27. Re:Mandelson by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the name of a Harry Potter villain.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    28. Re:Mandelson by alex67500 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's a Terry Pratchett quote. Interesting times if my memory doesn't fail me...

    29. Re:Mandelson by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      He sounds like the UK equivalent of Dick Cheney.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    30. Re:Mandelson by David+Gerard · · Score: 4, Funny

      Baron Mandelson, 679, of Transylvania, smiled for the cameras, only having to reconstitute himself twice when the flashes dissolved him into dust. "I only enter where I am invited," he said in sepulchral Eurocratic tones. "When I am called upon, I shall return."

      Labour MPs rushed to greet the chief architect of New Labour, many carrying wooden stakes, garlic and crosses.

      Mr Mandelson has had a chequered career in office. Previous Cabinet terms have ended with unfortunate resignations due to being beheaded by angry villagers, burnt at the stake, wrapped in chains and thrown to the bottom of the Volga and, in one case, nuked from orbit.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    31. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      try this: http://www.smeggys.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13062

    32. Re:Mandelson by MindKata · · Score: 4, Insightful

      @AC: Wow, judging from your totally over the top frankly arrogant comments its you who needs "a sense of perspective" rather than flying off the deep end. If you AC, bothered to learn some "history", you would see there was a lot more to Heinrich Himmler than his high profile horrific acts during WW2.

      Heinrich Himmler spent years scheming and manipulating to finally work himself into a position of immense power. It is that scheming and manipulation that allowed him to consolidate his position of power leading up to WW2. His behavior showed someone extremely driven (at almost any cost) to seek any way to gain power over others. Psychologically that's very interesting, as it strongly points to a personality disorder that I strongly suspect Mandelson shares many aspects with. A good example is their extreme self interest, with such a total lack of empathy for opponents. Knowledge and lies are a weapon to people like this. Mandelson is exactly like this. (People like them so often learn from a young age that lying gets them what they want and as they have no empathy to others they don't care they are lying. Worst still, they sadly see most people as overly trusting pawns their lies easily manipulate. Even worse, they consider themselves smarter for winning over trusting people).

      We have seen atrocities throughout human history, so sadly there's nothing special about our time. Given the right circumstances (or more to the point, wrong circumstances) seemingly innocent people today would sadly be capable of similar levels of horrific contempt and lack of empathy to opponents and people they just see as their pawns, in their own rampant driven for self advancement at the expense of others. For example, the act of treating 1 person with contempt or 10 million people with contempt is simply the difference between the amount of power the person in power has. But if someone with a huge amount of power treats the lives of 10 million people with contempt, then you will find hundreds of thousands of people out of the 10 million are likely to end up dying if the contempt lasts months and years. We have seen that repeated throughout history and around the world. The people in power at the time, often don't want the 10 million to die. The point is, they don't care if they live or die. Their only concern if the 10 million died is what effect would that have on their own position of power. Its a totally self interested mindset. They don't even think about the victims they are only interested in how that affects them. Thankfully most people don't think like this sick minority of people, but sadly this minority so often seeks to gain extreme power over others, ultimately for their own gain from having such power over others.

      If the world is to ever progress, we *all* need to learn to recognize this kind of person and then together we would have the power to stop them holding such positions of power over us all.

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
    33. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh? Trotsky wasn't a mass murderer, whether you agree with his ideology or not.

    34. Re:Mandelson by FourthAge · · Score: 1

      You know nothing about me you patronising cocksucker. The old chestnut of 'when you get older you will understand' is just an excuse to avoid addressing somebodies arguments on their own merit.

      See, this is why I said "probably". You're very touchy about having your beliefs challenged, aren't you?

      You seem to hate conspiracy theorists, "tinfoil helmets" and so on. That's something we have in common because I always prefer the simplest explanation. So what's with all this "New Labour = Thatcherite" business? Pretty weird conspiracy theory that, especially about a party run by former Marxists, but since it's such a common belief in Britain, I guess the stats prove that it must be true. Only a "mediocre mind" would disagree with the crowd.

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
    35. Re:Mandelson by FourthAge · · Score: 1

      There's no need for advocacy. It is official policy, enshrined in law. Mandelson has everything to do with this, because he's one of the people who made it happen.

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
    36. Re:Mandelson by sbeckstead · · Score: 1

      No no no, wrong mustache. My god the kids have forgotten what Hitler looks like...

    37. Re:Mandelson by sbeckstead · · Score: 1

      Who pray tell is Tory Bliar?

    38. Re:Mandelson by sbeckstead · · Score: 1

      My god I've forgotten what Himmler looked like!

    39. Re:Mandelson by sbeckstead · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah sort of like a less nasty Karl Rove!

    40. Re:Mandelson by sbeckstead · · Score: 1

      Ignorance is thinking you know everything. Wisdom is knowing you don't... but I may be wrong.
      I know this is a faux pas but I couldn't resist:
      So that means the "Suspecting you may be wrong means the you are a wise ass"
      There had to say it, sorry off topic but hell this thing has been Godwinned anyway so what the heck!.

    41. Re:Mandelson by drsquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What constantly astounds me about Mandelson is the lack of furore about the fact that he's unelected. We didn't vote for this man. How the hell did he get to be running the country?

      This is Britain, not a democracy, why does he need anyone to vote for him? No-one voted for Brown, and two-thirds of the country voted against the ruling party in the last election yet they were returned with a large majority.

      You've never needed an electoral mandate to rule this country, what are you so surprised about?

    42. Re:Mandelson by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Nah, just a bias against Grand Viziers after Aladdin, which I believe came before Terry Pratchett's "Interesting Times".

      Now that I've bothered to look, it seems there are accounts of good Grand Vizier's in the Arabian Nights, so my bias is unfair I guess.

      Still, "The Evil Grand Vizier" does tend to have a that something "extra" compared to stuff like say - "The Evil Prime Minister".

      --
    43. Re:Mandelson by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      I wonder if he has also enough dirt on other MPs to blackmail and force himself back into such power

      it's the only sane explanation... I strongly suspect he's got real dirt on things senior labour members got up to in their student days... I very much suspect there's some real dirt on Tony Blair...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    44. Re:Mandelson by Golddess · · Score: 1

      Judging by all the Hitler Miis, not really...

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    45. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet Talleyrand kept coming back, and back, and back ;)

    46. Re:Mandelson by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I still can't believe 1 guy ruined a perfectly good style of mustache for everybody else.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    47. Re:Mandelson by jDeepbeep · · Score: 1

      His behavior showed someone extremely driven (at almost any cost) to seek any way to gain power over others. Psychologically that's very interesting, as it strongly points to a personality disorder that I strongly suspect Mandelson shares many aspects with. A good example is their extreme self interest, with such a total lack of empathy for opponents.

      I cast my vote for NPD, or some related form of sociopathy.

      --
      Reply to That ||
    48. Re:Mandelson by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      As modern history of Russia has shown, there's nothing precluding former high-ranking Marxists from running a country as a corporatist state with a semi-official slogan of "screw the people".

      The reasoning is simple, too: those people don't care about ideology at all - they only care about power and money (or, as it was in the USSR, benefits, such as a personal car with a driver, that no prole could ever have). In a state which declares adherence to Marxist ideology, on paper at least, such people will be avowed Marxists. As soon as this becomes unfashionable, they turn into people lambasting communism with a volume of Solzhenitsyn in hand overnignt, preaching liberty and free market. These days, the very same guys tell us about degenerate morality of rotten Western liberalism, and about how spirituality is more important than some abstract "freedom".

      Don't seek ideological underpinnings where there are none. Their only ideology is money.

    49. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *sigh*

    50. Re:Mandelson by Zencyde · · Score: 1

      Give it a few centuries. No one will care at that point.

      --
      What day is it? Could you please tell me?
    51. Re:Mandelson by FourthAge · · Score: 1

      Google "Kronstadt rebellion".

      --
      The tao of democracy: the government you can vote for is not the real government.
    52. Re:Mandelson by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Indeed, having read about half of FourthAge's long long rant I have to agree.

      He starts by emphasizing the difference between a socialist democracy and a socialist dictatorship, stating that Orwell considered himself a socialist democrat, which is true, and that "1984" is a warning against socialist dictatorships, not right wing ones, which is also true and the title of his sig.

      Then he proceeds to equate democratic socialism with dictatorial socialism anyway, wtf?

      I stopped reading when he accused leftists of starting the illegitimate war in Iraq, he lost any respect I could had for his opinion.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    53. Re:Mandelson by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Again I agree.

      Here we have an article about Mandelson pushing for corporate interests against the rights of society at large, the very essence of right-wing politics, yet FourthAge accuses him of being an evil socialist. *face palm*

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    54. Re:Mandelson by bs7rphb · · Score: 1

      No-one voted for Brown, and two-thirds of the country voted against the ruling party in the last election yet they were returned with a large majority.

      Whilst I understand your wider point, the fact is that Gordon Brown was elected by the people of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath to be their MP. He is an elected politician. Mandelson was appointed as a Lord by Gordon Brown, and given the Minister position by him. Nobody at all voted for Mandelson, except perhaps Brown.

      To my mind, this is a gross violation of democracy; much more so than the lack of proportional representation in our country.

    55. Re:Mandelson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, yet more crimes for which to imprison your citizens. First you're the nanny state, and now in addition to the western world's parental stance toward it's people in regards to drugs, you have this. Pretty soon, you'll have a greater percentage of people in jail than the US. That'll be something to be proud of, won't it?
      Lord Mandelson, you, my friend, are an idiot.

    56. Re:Mandelson by sonicmerlin · · Score: 0

      Personally I think people are too irrational for democracy to ever be "good" or truly "effective". Who was it that said it's simply the lesser or two evils? Socialism is an *economic* theory, not a political one. It doesn't emphasize the concentration of power- that would be communism, which is (at least in modern times) a mostly *political* concept. Thus we have communist China with the most capitalistic market in the world.

    57. Re:Mandelson by twoHats · · Score: 1

      May be one of the Gray Ones ... they tend to be background creeps with power. No one in the states knows this guy. He is like Wolfowicz (sp?) and Cheny in the US - Perhaps the actual power, since it doesn't seem to matter who is elected, these guts are always there (...creepy music ...)

    58. Re:Mandelson by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      With no respect to Mandelson, foul little organism that it is, I believe that the openly-Conservative Lord Archer has tried to achieve this several times. You know, there's something almost nice about the image I get of those two buggering each other in a cell - the looks on each one's face might almost be worth the process of catching them and prosecuting them.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    59. Re:Mandelson by shnull · · Score: 1

      but i think i like this Watson character, elementary my dear

      --
      beware he who denies you access to information for in his mind, he already deems himself to be your master (SMAC-ish)
    60. Re:Mandelson by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I wonder if he has also enough dirt on other MPs to blackmail and force himself back into such power

      it's the only sane explanation... I strongly suspect he's got real dirt on things senior labour members got up to in their student days... I very much suspect there's some real dirt on Tony Blair...

      It's scary that I read this after posting my earlier comment concerning Lords Archer and Mandelson, in the cell, using the soap and the slop bucket ...
      Mind you, while it would explain how B.Liar could bear poking Cherie, it doesn't really explain where all the kiddies came from. Oh yes it does - him being a Catholic, and the old Bedouin proverb about sleeping with "a boy for pleasure, a woman for children, and a goat for warmth". You could get all 3 from Cherie. There's multi-tasking for you. Something women are notoriously good at.

      But that's veering from legitimate political comment - on what blackmail hold Mandelson has over the higher echelons of the "New Labour" Party - and towards praise for the woman's flexibility.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    61. Re:Mandelson by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      I'd ask Rothschild's successors themselves. Which unfortunately only works when you're one of them. But hey, others got there too, and so can you.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  2. anonymous? by The+Bubble · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The data would be anonymous, but serious repeat infringers would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers.

    This must be some definition of the word 'anonymous' that I was not previously aware of.

    1. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's the British definition.

    2. Re:anonymous? by PeterBrett · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The data would be anonymous, but serious repeat infringers would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers.

      This must be some definition of the word 'anonymous' that I was not previously aware of.

      Yes, quite. The whole thing is pure fascistic lunacy, that appears to have been drawn up by corporate lobbyists and Whitehall bureaucrats with no awareness of either the technical or legal ramifications of what they are doing.

      Also, since the rate of progress of technology nowadays is so much faster than big business and government can respond to it, this scheme will be obsolescent by the time that it gets implemented.

      I recently wrote to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in response to the pre-legislative consultation documents, and I would encourage other technically-literate Brits to do the same.

    3. Re:anonymous? by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      The data would be anonymous, but serious repeat infringers would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers.

      This must be some definition of the word 'anonymous' that I was not previously aware of.

      It's a typo. They meant the data would be an oni mouse; i.e.: A mouse that travels through an optical network interface.

      It's a faunization of the truck analogy.

    4. Re:anonymous? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      You wrote to the UK authorities and expect anything other than a response to say "We're right, shut up" ?

      I've given up after many times having had to wait for months for a reply and then have it made quite, quite clear to me that not only have they not taken on board my concerns, they haven't even bothered to read them.

    5. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to know where these "computer ID numbers" all of a sudden appeared from because if they are MAC or IP addresses, either can be spoofed easily.

    6. Re:anonymous? by joaobranco · · Score: 1

      The data would be anonymous, but serious repeat infringers would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers.

      This must be some definition of the word 'anonymous' that I was not previously aware of.

      The correct term would be pseudonymous, I guess. It is not directly personably identifiable information, but stands for it. Idealy it would not be reversible by itself, but could allow for identification upon further downloads. Think of a one-way hash.

    7. Re:anonymous? by joaobranco · · Score: 1

      I want to know where these "computer ID numbers" all of a sudden appeared from because if they are MAC or IP addresses, either can be spoofed easily.

      Well, most computers have a CPUID nowadays. You remember, the ones that were supposed not to be used for identification against the user but to help e-commerce more secure. Yep. Of course, also not incredibaly hard to disable, at least on current motherboards.

    8. Re:anonymous? by metageek · · Score: 0

      The id is on the side of the ISP who knows very well what customer is connected to which line. You can change your MAC or IP as much as you like, yet the ISP can still identify you.

      Unless, of course you use anonymized services or are in some internet cafe :)

      --
      metageek
    9. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, what fucking computer ID numbers?!

      Oh, the ones that can be disabled in the BIOS settings...

      I'm so scared now.

    10. Re:anonymous? by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      It's the sort of anonymous that is used when they tell you "please fill out this form with your opinions, and make sure you get the answers right."

    11. Re:anonymous? by damburger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The ruling class is utterly insulated. Politicians in this country can live their entire lives without meeting anybody outside their social class. All the MPs have been railroaded from private school through to Oxford, and thence into safe seats arranged by their mentors and parents. Their entire reality is defined for them by their lobbyists.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    12. Re:anonymous? by mike260 · · Score: 1

      They are an opaque identifier assigned to you by the ISP.

      When DIsney tells your ISP that you downloaded High School Musical 2, the ISP will not give Disney any of your personal info but instead will give them a persistent ID number for you. This lets Disney connect different infringements together and determine they were done by the same person, but without requiring ISPs to give out names or addresses.

      Think of them as cookies, but not deletable.

    13. Re:anonymous? by g34rs · · Score: 1

      Computer ID numbers...pfffft.
      MADmacs anyone?

    14. Re:anonymous? by mcgrew · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's the data itself that is anonymous -- not the data collected about downloaders, but the data (music and films) being downloaded. There may be more "pirate" material seeded, and I'm not so sure much of that is uploaded intentionally. There was a story on slashdot last week about using a file sharing app to collect peoples' private data, as most non-slashdotters just don't know how computers work. If you can accidentally put your bank details out there, you can also put thay Metallica song you "bought" from iTunes or ripped from your purchased CD out there quite innocently.

      And when I download, how can I possibly know if the material is public domain, CC, copyrighted but with permission to upload, or pirate material?

      My mother had a scratchy old record from the 1940 with a song I wanted a better copy of, called "Scatterbrain". When a sample is converted to MP3, all the defects are magnified. Do you have any idea how many songs with that name there are?

      As Cory Doctorow pointed out in the forward to Little Brother, "piracy" only does good for an author. He was much more succinct in his explanation, but it boils down to the fact that no author ever went broke from piracy, but many an author went broke from obscurity. That's why all his books have CC licenses and are freely available at his web site in many formats, as well as free at the public library, or for sale at book stores. The fact that he gives the stuff away and still makes the NYT best seller list is proof that "competing with free" is stupid -- use "free" to your advantage, like he does.

      Studies show that "pirates" spend more money on music than non-pirates.

      This is the real reason the MAFIAA is at war with "piracy". The major label music industry fears its competetion, the indies, who use "free" to their advantage while the RIAA labels have the radio. The film industry is terrified of Star Wreck: In The Perkinning, a hilarious spoof of Star Trek and Babylon Five that was incredibly well made for a few thousand dollars and given away freely.

      The real pirates are the established music and film industries.

    15. Re:anonymous? by tcr · · Score: 1

      And also there's no law to stop me running open wifi.

      And some WEP schemes can be casually cracked.
       
      Where does the burden of proof lie?

      --


      Information wants to be beer.
    16. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Thanks for the link. I think I will submit a response. I submitted one to Gowers as well, not that that did us much good as the government quietly reversed their position on things like copyright term extension later despite a very, very clear view from the public submissions that this was not appropriate. Still, at least it is a matter of public record that pretty much everyone except the media did oppose that change.

      In this case, I don't have a problem with penalising those who blatantly break the law using P2P. It is, after all, against the law, and the law is not unreasonable in most cases that would be affected. However, when penalising those who break the law, there should be due process and judicial oversight. The idea of giving Big Media direct access to legal resources without such oversight is... well, take a look at what happened in the US, and it's pretty clear that it's a bad idea. Unless, of course, there are statutory provisions entitling me to compensation of £100 per hour plus all other legal fees and consequential losses in the event that I am wrongly accused and have to defend myself.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    17. Re:anonymous? by cliffski · · Score: 1, Troll

      I'm a technically literate brit, but amazingly, its my opinion that people who are serial downloaders of copyrighted material are
      a) breaking the law
      b) free loading off honest people who pay for stuff and thus enable it to get made in the first place.

      I frankly don't give a fuck if people who are caught illegally downloading copyrighted material are caught, identified and prosecuted, just as I don't give a fuck if people who break the speed limit or get caught driving without insurance get prosecuted for that.

      What next? having speed cameras or letting the police check your insurance details at random is 'an invasion of privacy!!!'

      Nothing is more insulting that equating being technically literate with 'defending the anonymity of internet pirates'.
      What is this? digg? torrentfreak? or 'newsforpirates'?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    18. Re:anonymous? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      I've had that too. They usually copy and paste replies that only vaguely correspond to what you said, but don't actually address the points you made.

      Then there are "consultations" which seem to be "Here's a biased explanation of the situation, and here are some leading questions, inviting you to agree with the option we want to do".

      Followed up with "consultation response" which is "Here's a hand-picked biased summary of responses, together with an explanation of why we're going to ignore anyone who disagreed with us".

    19. Re:anonymous? by john83 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nothing is more insulting that equating being technically literate with 'defending the anonymity of internet pirates'.

      Welcome to slashdot.

      I tend to agree with you regarding downloading (though I'm fully supportive of significant copyright reform), but what this amounts to is government monitoring in your home. As the internet grows in significance in people's lives, the information broadband providers can collect on them has too - what your read, what you say, what you buy. That data should not be collected by the government. You mention traffic cameras, but that's another balancing act - illegal driving leads to deaths, illegal filesharing may slightly undermine some commerce. I'll mention your mail. Should the government read your post to check for illegal activities? (Sure, it'll x-ray a package to make sure there are no guns, or run it past a sniffer dog for drugs, but these don't intrude to the same extent.) Should it monitor your book purchases and library use for inappropriate materials? Alternatively, we could put microphones in your house to ensure you have appropriate licenses for all of your music use. The crowd on here does tend to take an extreme libertarian perspective, but it's not as simple as saying they're wrong. Ultimately, their argument is not even that the crime shouldn't be detected and prosecuted for (though many will say just that), but rather that the tools being proposed are not suitable for a government.

      --
      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
    20. Re:anonymous? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I just can't see any way it could ever work, because IP addresses do not identify an individual.

      They could make the person paying the bill on the connection responsible, but even paedophiles get off when their computer has a virus that they claim did it. Besides, even speeding offences require the car owner to identify the person driving if they can, and if they can't they are not held responsible.

      If less proof is required, simply send Mandleson an email with a "bug" image to get his IP address and then make a claim against it.

      There are already very effective and anonymous/untraceable P2P apps (Share, Perfect Dark etc) and VPN services (Relakks etc) so presumably they are hoping that people will simply be put off by the threat of this law being levied against them.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I take it you'll consent to having your house searched daily by the police, then? After all, the only ones with anything to hide are those who're breaking the law.

    22. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, then can they tell me the details of everyone "borrowing" my WiFi?

    23. Re:anonymous? by PeterBrett · · Score: 5, Informative

      Nothing is more insulting that equating being technically literate with 'defending the anonymity of internet pirates'. What is this? digg? torrentfreak? or 'newsforpirates'?

      If you think that's what my objection to this is about, you're a fool suffering under the influence of the well-known fallacy, "The innocent have nothing to fear."

      I am not a pirate, yet I oppose this. My main objections to this are:

      • Very little if any consideration of how false accusations might occur. At the moment, you might end up getting hauled into court:
        • Because the clock on the ISP's DHCP box was incorrect;
        • Because you were uploading something entirely legitimate which happened to have a filename which looked like it might be unauthorised.
        • Other ways I haven't thought of yet.

        In the legislation as currently proposed, there is no discussion whatsoever of what recourse ISP account holders would have against false accusations.

      • No requirement that an ISP account holder is notified promptly of accusations made against them, so that they can preserve evidence of non-infringement. Indeed, there is not even a requirement that an account holder is told what work they are alleged to have illicitly copied or who is asserting the copyright on the work.
      • No requirement that civil court-grade evidence is gathered at the time that an accusation of infringement is made. Essentially, any lawsuit brought based on the proposed legislation would be a case of, "He said, she said," without the defendant receiving the benefit of good quality evidence to use in their defence.
      • There are several other similar issues.

      Support this legislation if you like; I will have no sympathy whatsoever for you if and when you find yourself in court accused of something you didn't do and with no way to mount an effective defence.

    24. Re:anonymous? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      And it's my opinion that current copyright laws are too far reaching and that bankrupting people for downloading a few films is cruel and disproportionate.

      If you support fining people up to 50 grand for downloading a movie then you're an asshole. Pure and simple.

    25. Re:anonymous? by cliffski · · Score: 0

      And its my opinion that someone who people who repeatedly, knowingly, constantly take other peoples hard work for free, again and again and again,with zero intention of ever paying for it, or giving a shit about the effects of what they do, deserve what they get.
      pure and simple.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    26. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, while what you're saying might be true for music and books, it's not the case for movies. Movies are extremely expensive to produce and hard to get a return on.

      While I personally think Hollywood can only blame themselves for letting the cost of producing a movie skyrocket so much (by paying whatever the stars or CGI studios ask to be paid); that doesn't change the fact that the situation is much more complicated than with music. Frankly I don't see how the movie industry is going to survive the internet age.

    27. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      That's exactly it. Computer ID = IP address.

      It's in Human nature to be scared of that which you do not understand. The kids and others who are pir8ting music and video can freak out if they think there's something new that will nail them. What about the rest that know what's going on?

      Your comment is accurate, but I'd like to throw in an extra for chuckles: Didn't something called the... oh, what was that...?.. Oh yeah! RIAA in America try something similar, if not the same?

      LOLs to all involved in this plan. Thank you for a good daily laugh.

      The only way to stop (IMHO) pir8ting and copying is literal door-to-door extraordinary evidence search and execution of any involved. I'm thinking for some strange reason that it's not going to happen. ;)

    28. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Good analysis, now let me throw in the statement that there's no way to get CPUID/MBID info from a machine through the internet without it being done through an application.

      I don't think that the gov't is going to release a virus/trojan to monitor all machines.. or will they? Time to start writing my movie on this idea now! AWESOME!

      Oh, wait. People will pirate it and I won't make any money. Screw it. ;)

    29. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Errr what? Are you implying that all MPs are in safe seats? What about marginal constituencies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_constituencies_in_the_United_Kingdom

    30. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Don't wanna waste comment space, but I will. Heh.

      If all goes to hell in a hand-basket and some day the internet is taken down, there will always be underground ways, wireless and wired, to share information. Welcome to real life! Idjits.

      Not to give away too much information, but look at it this way... what do you think will happen to people who dig fence posts, build buildings, make food, etc etc etc, will do when automation systems similar (or same) to robots are developed? Those jobs will disappear and those people will do something else to live life.

      Wake up, morons. Technological and software growth creates new facets that weren't available to everyone before. The old ways of selling entertainment aren't valid anymore in majority. Sure, people still go to movie theaters on release date because it's fun and interpersonal. That said, there are other ways to get people to rush rush RUSH and buy buy BUY!

    31. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Anonymous, but I'll throw this one in...

      How about creating movie theaters with more awesome effects? Something that will make almost everyone interested in the movie want to go and see it there...? Something other than media that's able to be pir8ted. Sure, you can video record the theatrical release, but you can't include the seat movements, vibrations, smells, or other sensory excitements.

      I'm just saying. I don't rely on anything as law or guarantee anymore after living many years of life. Sometimes you can't count on something that used to be your main source of income or whatever.

    32. Re:anonymous? by Xebikr · · Score: 2, Funny

      And its my opinion that someone who people who repeatedly, knowingly, constantly take other peoples hard work for free, again and again and again,with zero intention of ever paying for it, or giving a shit about the effects of what they do, deserve what they get.
      pure and simple.

      I knowingly, contantly, take other peoples hard work for free, again and again and again! I listened to the radio and when a commercial came on, I CHANGED THE CHANNEL! Wha ha ha ha ha! Whenever I watch tv, I intentionally avoid commercials, EVERY DAMN TIME! I borrow books from the library, watch movies at friends houses, borrow thier games and use open source software and none of those guys ever see a single dime from me! I am EVIL! I am a dirty rotten stinky theif and I deserve what I get!

    33. Re:anonymous? by kz45 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "If you support fining people up to 50 grand for downloading a movie then you're an asshole. Pure and simple."

      My problem is that people sharing and downloading movies are bankrupting the film industry (and the music, software, (anything that can be digital).

      It's not a 1-1 ratio (IE: 1 download does not equal one lost sale). However, over time, if enough people think it's alright (and access to it becomes very easy for anyone), people won't pay for DVDs anymore. This is why it needs to be stopped, and fear of huge fines seems to be the only thing that works.

    34. Re:anonymous? by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "The old ways of selling entertainment aren't valid anymore in majority. Sure, people still go to movie theaters on release date because it's fun and interpersonal. That said, there are other ways to get people to rush rush RUSH and buy buy BUY!"

      The problem is that it's not a competing technology that is winning. People are taking the same work (the film industry is still making all of the advances) and giving it out for free (which is the easy, lazy, not new work part). This is the difference.

      People still want entertainment. This is why it is downloaded so frequently. The entertainment industry just needs to find another way to lock out the pirates.

    35. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      The entertainment industry just needs to find another way to lock out the pirates.

      Oh, indeed! They do. History stated: once they do, people will find new ways around it. It's settled. Heck, some hackers/pirates probably just find ways around new copy prevention methods because they refuse to allow the entertainment industry to win.

      That said, the remainder is "what do we do now?"

      Knowing this will last forever, I figure a better way is not just blocking the attackers again, but coming up with something that can't be electronically copied in a useful format. Oh, wait, that's been done. Now we have high-def media and technology. So what's next?

      I think, on my own, that the next idea to consider is something that can't be copied digitally. Something physical. Something that can never be experienced again (a theater with smells, physical vibrations or other movements, etc). Then, give the copied versions away for free. They lack the extras, but that keeps the buyer wanting more and the freebies developing desire ;) They'll be back out again to experience the next one and draw others in. Hell, I would ;)

    36. Re:anonymous? by agnosticnixie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, they're not. In the case of music, the money lost is lost by the majors - the money for artists is not and has never been in recordings, with a very very few exceptions. Same for post-theater movies, the money doesn't go to pay the people whose hard work went into it, but to make a fat cheque to an already overpaid mpaa exec.

    37. Re:anonymous? by Deanalator · · Score: 1

      "Don't worry, you're going to be anonymous, but we just want to burn this number into your arm to keep track of you."

      That's right, Mandelson is Hitler*, and eats puppies for lunch.

      * Hitler died a long time ago and is never coming back.

    38. Re:anonymous? by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

      Our new anonymity is doubleplus good.

    39. Re:anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      deserve what they get

      So, you think they deserve their free music, movies, TV, games, pr0n, Microsoft operating systems... since that's what they get. Or so I'm told.

    40. Re:anonymous? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nothing is more insulting that equating being technically literate with 'defending the anonymity of internet pirates'.

      It's not about defending anonymity of pirates, it's defending of anonymity on the Net in general. Unless you have some magical way of determining which users are pirates and which aren't without getting rid of anonymity for everyone...

    41. Re:anonymous? by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Oh, indeed! They do. History stated: once they do, people will find new ways around it. It's settled. Heck, some hackers/pirates probably just find ways around new copy prevention methods because they refuse to allow the entertainment industry to win."

      As long as they can keep the masses from downloading their material, they will still stay in business. A few pirates here and there won't really matter.

      "Knowing this will last forever, I figure a better way is not just blocking the attackers again, but coming up with something that can't be electronically copied in a useful format. Oh, wait, that's been done. Now we have high-def media and technology. So what's next?"

      Software as a service comes to mind. Eventually, most people will have high-speed Internet (If not already) and you will be required to use all software on a remote server. Turbo tax already does this, and it works very well.

      "I think, on my own, that the next idea to consider is something that can't be copied digitally. Something physical. Something that can never be experienced again (a theater with smells, physical vibrations or other movements, etc). Then, give the copied versions away for free. They lack the extras, but that keeps the buyer wanting more and the freebies developing desire ;) They'll be back out again to experience the next one and draw others in. Hell, I would ;)"

      Why should they have to? When people stopped buying the horse-and-buggy, there was a good reason: better technology. However, the pirates are not in this position. They are just taking what's already out there..and giving it out for free. There is no innovation. This is why companies will not come out with something better. They know that people still like what they are selling, they just need a way to stop freeloaders from illegally giving it out for free on the Internet.

      I might respect the community a little more if they were actually competing with these industries by releasing something new, different, and creative. But, they would much rather steal existing content and claim it as a right.

      I still remember when napster came out in '99. The excuse was that music was too expensive. Now, you can use iTunes and many other online services (like pandora) and get free or very cheap, legal, music. Has piracy dropped? no. It's continued and even gotten worse. There is no excuse. The industries have complied and given you very easy ways to get legal content.

    42. Re:anonymous? by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I won't respond to the ACGP, but Star Wrek: In The Pirkinning was produced for a few thousand dollars. Only twenty years ago it cost a fortune to produce an album, now it's within everyone's reach. It won't be long before MPAA vs indies is where RIAA vs indies is now.

      The MPAA's situation is more dire than the RIAA's, because the RIAA has radio. The MPAA has theaters that suck. Your idea is one the MPAA should look into. Rather than surround sound they should keep the sound on or behind the screen, with a separate channel driving a separate speaker at each corner.

      They should lower their rediculous prices, too. And serve alcohol. I'm sure there are a lot of other ways they could make the theater experience far better than it is now.

    43. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      As long as they can keep the masses from downloading their material, they will still stay in business. A few pirates here and there won't really matter

      I agree with you.

      Unfortunately, in this context, it's not possible to keep the few from sharing/distributing their methods to many.

      The whole thing looks and feels like a virus. One comes and is overcome, followed by another one, followed by another, followed ad nauseum.

      I might respect the community a little more if they were actually competing with these industries by releasing something new, different, and creative. But, they would much rather steal existing content and claim it as a right.

      Lots of public music is shared on the internet and in other ways. Indies don't mind and are hoping for a nice contract some day. If they don't get it, they're still playing.

      In the end it looks to me like it's a buyer's choice.

      Why should they have to? When people stopped buying the horse-and-buggy, there was a good reason: better technology. However, the pirates are not in this position. They are just taking what's already out there..and giving it out for free. There is no innovation. This is why companies will not come out with something better. They know that people still like what they are selling, they just need a way to stop freeloaders from illegally giving it out for free on the Internet.

      They're not trying to innovate. The only innovation that looks to be in place is higher quality ripping or distribution. That having been said, let's look back at horse and buggy. Someone developed a new innovative device that was more efficient than the carriage but still performed the same type of duty. Are we supposed to have a categorical system like the music industry and all of its suppliers and artists set up with the same media and methods available to the consumer? Were those with the horse and buggy angered by the automobile introduction? Sure they were. Did that stop it?

      I still remember when napster came out in '99. The excuse was that music was too expensive. Now, you can use iTunes and many other online services (like pandora) and get free or very cheap, legal, music. Has piracy dropped? no. It's continued and even gotten worse. There is no excuse. The industries have complied and given you very easy ways to get legal content.

      No offense intended at all, but usually when I hear these types of statements, they come from someone who is either involved with someone in the music industry, are a musician themselves and hope to make it some day, or are trying to pick a statement that they consider the truth and fight for it, regardless of information that sits right in front of them.

      I'm discussing fact and possibility, *TAKING INTO ACCOUNT HISTORICAL OUTCOMES*. Please note that. The discussion is not a war; it's the brains talking about details of the war that's already going on. If you're a member of said war, most discussion is biased.

      You in, or you out (as I believe the colloquialism would ask)?

      I'm the type that has ideas. I ask for counterpoints and respond with corrections -or- acceptance, moving on to another solution. In the end, there's a basic solution or give-up.

      Think of me as Data from STTNG ;)

    44. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Rather than surround sound they should keep the sound on or behind the screen, with a separate channel driving a separate speaker at each corner.

      They should lower their rediculous prices, too. And serve alcohol. I'm sure there are a lot of other ways they could make the theater experience far better than it is now.

      I like your effective communication rather than the common effect of those who have created opinions back when all of this started (or from a point after), deciding that they have a solution or answer and backing it up regardless of information presented or gathered over time. They feel they would look stupid if they faced the admission of being wrong or incomplete on any of their data.

      Having said that, I am not understanding your response. To make sure we're on the same wavelength, I'll throw what I'm talking about out there and see if you're misunderstanding my horrid human communication skills or if you're openly expanding on it. *deep breath*

      I'm thinking of this theater that has a nice set of seats (only ONE in Cincinnati has the type being referred to) where there are arms that can be raised or lowered for bench/personal seating. Also can recline, but that's irrelevant on topic here because I'm talking about ones that don't commonly recline but are controlled as part of the film experience. Vibrations through them, movement back and forth, slight angular movement, etc..
      Sound system is still surround but perhaps might include more row-based or even seat-by-seat based additions. Overhead sound is required.
      There need to be some additions, IMHO, like some sort of device which hasn't yet been developed that can release scent for certain scenes (forest, oceanic, desert, etc, for instance).
      Maybe rapid humidity build/decline if there is enough air movement power to control it, as well as scent introduction and removal, in a timely fashion.
      Internal background lighting addition; supports sky and office conditions, etc.

      You get the gist. The downside is (and why I wouldn't like to be part of the development) lawsuits or general complaints from 1/10,000 that has an allergic or other health-related reaction to any of the above. None fatal or harmful, but annoying. If signatures by viewers could be clear that there is no danger, you might lose a customer here and there. Think of the number of happy people, though.

      I think it's an idea worth talking about, but that isn't going to get me any listeners. I digress.

      So, we talking about the same thing or were you telling me you think I'm crazy? ;)

    45. Re:anonymous? by cliffski · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Do you really think that people pirating music give a flying fuck whether or not the artist loses out?
      You think they check the wording of the recording contract to ensure its an unfair deal before they click download?

      people pirate music to get free stuff because they think they wont get caught and they dont give a fuck how it affects anyone else.
      Any other justification is just after-the fact rationalisation bollocks.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    46. Re:anonymous? by agnosticnixie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The people who complain are the majors for the most part - and the money they grab even in some cases over cases of infringement of copyright of small indie bands or of in-the-end legal downloads that just happened to be distributed through p2p (jamendo uses bt, there's some private tracker exclusive releases as well, or at least they start as such) doesn't exactly go to the profit of these indies whose visibility is increased, not reduced this way.
      As for after the fact rationalization, it was prior the fact, tyvm, except anyway our copyrights lobby managed to levy a tax on blank media instead: again, it doesn't go in the pocket of who makes the art, but the copyright trolls.
      But you'd rather be a sanctimonious ass, I figure.

    47. Re:anonymous? by sonicmerlin · · Score: 0

      What the frick? Why were you labeled troll? Wow, just wow. Slashdot mods are seriously idiots. Let's just ignore the reality of scientific studies demonstrating the prolific buying habits of "cheap pirates" and the effectiveness of advertising through "free" distribution of material. Let's instead just label a logical, well-thought out argument illuminating the fallacies in the RIAA's arguments as a "troll". BRILLIANT!

    48. Re:anonymous? by scamper_22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you say the word lobbyist as if it is a bad word.
      What do you think democracy is? The interested parties lobby to get their way.

      What you have a problem with is not lobbying.... but the fact that lobbies you do not like are successful.
      Corporations are a lobby.
      Public sector unions are a lobby.
      Lawyers are a lobby. ...

      You could easily form your own lobby with whatever you wish. Get some names. Get people out there to care about the issue, and you too can influence government.

      In any case. I do not believe in democracy for this very reason. I believe in a republic. Rule of law above the rule of men.

    49. Re:anonymous? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      illegal driving leads to deaths

      [citation needed]

    50. Re:anonymous? by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      Man Cliffski, you are right. Why don't slashdotter's simply own up to the fact that whenever someone watches a movie or listens to music without first emptying their wallets and submitting to cavity searches, God kills a recording artist?

      Anyway, man, speaking of which, it sure is brave of your to man up and volunteer yourself to have your home tossed, loved ones detained and subcutaneous recording devices installed this way. You know, to show us all that it's ok, and worth it to keep the Black Eyed Peas and Beyonce out of the poor house.

      I'm pouring out a 40 for you man, you are an inspiration to us all.

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
    51. Re:anonymous? by jesset77 · · Score: 1

      Look, uh... Speaking as sysadmin for a US based ISP, I have never heard of any such "identifier" before, or any kind of a standard for one.

      Even if there was such a thing, would that not be a "Customer ID" instead of a "Computer ID"?

      If I didn't know any better, I would say this legislation exists for no reason other than to troll slashdotters for the lulz. :P

      --
      People willing to trade their freedom of expression for temporary entertainment deserve neither and will lose both.
    52. Re:anonymous? by Landak · · Score: 1

      Whilst it is true that the politicians currently probably did find Oxford a university for the upper-classes, this is no longer the case; I am currently an undergraduate there, and I come from what you would call a single-parent-family 'lower class' background. Likewise, I have friends there - scholars indeed - who have mums who were heroin addicts and whatnot. Please don't perpetuate the myth that Oxford is purely for the toffs of Eton and Harrow. Oxford is for the bright, the able, and honestly doesn't care wherever the hell you come from.

      --
      My UID is prime. Is yours?
    53. Re:anonymous? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      No, I like your ideas and think they are sound. I just added a couple of things.

      The sound thing, as it is even surround sound is still two dimentional; you have forward and backward, and left and right, but not up and down. I've never liked the idea of "surround sound" in music or video. In music, if you are at a live venue, none of the instruments are behind you. The back channels are only good for reproducing the reflected sound, but that can only work if you are listening to your surround sound in an anechoic chamber. The ambience of the room you're listening in mixes with the artificial ambience of the rear speakers.

      In a theater, There were two movies that made me hate surround sound. One of them was one of the Star Wars movies, where some sort of noisy craft comes up from behind the audience. I actually turned around and looked, and it completely distroyed the immersion. Gran Torino was another, a telephone rang offscreen, and it likewise destroyed the immersion.

      Stereo provides depth, but only behind the speakers. Your movie only has two dimentional sound; forward and back (which you can have even with monophonic sound), and right and left. There is no up and down. If someone in the movie walks from the left to the right, the sound of his footesteps follow him. If he falls screaming from a tall building, the sound doesn't follow him as that dimention is missing.

      In my living room, it wouldn't add much if anything; it's only a 42 inch screen.

      Again, your ideas are sound. TVs have gotten to the point where the only reason for going to the theater is the size of the screen, but the rest of the experience is abysmal. You have a comfortable seat at home, not in the theater. I can drink a beer while watching a movie at home, but not in the theater.

      Disney has actually incorporated your ideas in some of the attractions in Florida, and a long time ago as well. The "trip to mars" ride isn't really a ride, but is a movie on a circular screen with seats that move and vibrate to make one feel as if he's actually in a spaceship. The Epcot ride with the dinasaurs (and a few oithers iirc; it's been 20 years since I was there) incorporates smell, although that one is animatronics rather than a movie.

      I think the trouble is that business people have no sense of imagination.

    54. Re:anonymous? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      What the frick? Why were you labeled troll?

      My guess is that one of these guys somehow got mod points.

    55. Re:anonymous? by damburger · · Score: 1

      From what I understand it, like Cambridge, varies from college to college. There are understood internally some that are OK for riff-raff, and some that are not.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    56. Re:anonymous? by kz45 · · Score: 1

      "Lots of public music is shared on the internet and in other ways. Indies don't mind and are hoping for a nice contract some day. If they don't get it, they're still playing.

      In the end it looks to me like it's a buyer's choice."

      Buyer's choice would be choosing indy music over major labels. This is not the case. People are outright taking major label's music, without their permission.

      "They're not trying to innovate. The only innovation that looks to be in place is higher quality ripping or distribution."

      Higher quality ripping and distribution? As i said before, iTunes is out, which is legal (and is just as high quality). The only difference is that it costs money. Most rips online are lower quality (movies are cams..software is cracked..and songs are at a lower bitrate than the original)

      "Are we supposed to have a categorical system like the music industry and all of its suppliers and artists set up with the same media and methods available to the consumer? Were those with the horse and buggy angered by the automobile introduction? Sure they were. Did that stop it?"

      You can always create your own music and give it out for free on youtube or your blog. You are advocating taking someone else's work (which took many people, creativity, and lots of money) and counterfeiting it (it's not stealing, but the value of the original work is devalued over time, almost like counterfeiting currency)...which is completely different.

      "No offense intended at all, but usually when I hear these types of statements, they come from someone who is either involved with someone in the music industry, are a musician themselves and hope to make it some day, or are trying to pick a statement that they consider the truth and fight for it, regardless of information that sits right in front of them"

      It's funny when someone says "no offense", they really intend on offending. I gave you the facts. Sorry if you don't want to believe them. You sound like someone who copies and shares music, movies, and software and gives excuses as to why it's "right".

      "I'm the type that has ideas. I ask for counterpoints and respond with corrections -or- acceptance, moving on to another solution. In the end, there's a basic solution or give-up.

      Think of me as Data from STTNG ;)"

      Spoken like someone who doesn't really want to discuss truth and facts, but only wants to get his point across. I told you why you were wrong, but you don't seem to want to listen.

      It's funny how these discussions always end up as thinly veiled attempts to justify not paying. I haven't really seen any good arguments to prove otherwise (You can find comments from 10 years ago with the same arguments).

      Funny, when the GNU is violated, people start to equate it to "stealing" (just look at the articles here on slashdot from the past month), when it's essentially the exact same thing as copyright infringement the RIAA and many other companies are against.

    57. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      I think your last line,

      I think the trouble is that business people have no sense of imagination.

      has the best statement of all time ;)

      Also giggled a little when I read that "my ideas are sound," given the topic of conversation. Hehe.

      I guess you're totally right in that I would need to see how people react to something that I consider perfect, and possess the ability to distinguish. Perchance others don't. Oh, well. Not like my idea was going to be taken by any entity other than imagination, anyhow :)

      Thanks!

    58. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      t's funny when someone says "no offense", they really intend on offending. I gave you the facts. Sorry if you don't want to believe them. You sound like someone who copies and shares music, movies, and software and gives excuses as to why it's "right".

      ...and you're one who says you have facts when you have nothing but what you BELIEVE to be fact. I don't have facts, and you don't have facts. Since you're a head-butter that won't discuss, only try to prove yourself as the master, the conversation has ended.

      You lose. You get nothing. Good day, sir.

      Wait, I just stole that. Sue me.

    59. Re:anonymous? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      Let's say that talking about possible outcomes due to possible solutions, regarding something that we personally don't like, is the element of idiocy and a call for argumentative discussion.

      We aren't able to discuss things with our opinions and do the "normal" give-and-take that a reasonable person would involve themselves in anymore, oh, no no no. We must come up with elements of idiocy ourselves and say that those are fact and the-end because we, ourselves, came up with it.

      Gotta love people who go back and forth just to make sure they're always the last one making a statement. Find those everywhere.

      Good call on your part making this post!

    60. Re:anonymous? by RivieraKid · · Score: 1

      And also there's no law to stop me running open wifi.

      Don't worry, I'm sure they'll fix that little loophole soon enough, just as soon as the first "criminal" relies on it as a defense.
       

      Where does the burden of proof lie?

      Well, that lies with you of course. We haven't had a right to remain silent for a long time, and the government doesn't even bother pretending that we're innocent until proven guilty anymore. Of course, the inconvenient fact that it's impossible to prove a negative doesn't get in their way either.

      --
      "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves
    61. Re:anonymous? by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Some cocksucuking corporate shills have modded the parent troll. Someone fix that, and fast.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    62. Re:anonymous? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Wow, your username sure matches your comment! But don't worry about my karma, it remains excellent. Like I said to sonicmerlin in reply to this comment, My guess is that one of these guys had mod points. And the comment wasn't buried, at least too deep to see, as it got responses.

      I wish they'd bring back meaningful metamoderation.

      Modding myself down with the "no karma bonus" checkbox on this one, as it's kind of offtopic...

    63. Re:anonymous? by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Actually the name was supposed to be a throw away account, since buggy slashcode took 10 min to register my comment, and I posted it again, promptly getting modded redundant. And the other one Offtopic, apparently for shits and giggles. My previous user name was rootooftheworld. BTW, how the hell did you get excellent karma? Mine's been merely Positive for as long as I remember. And I post religiously. I don't get it.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    64. Re:anonymous? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      People like my comments I guess; I get +5s nearly every day, and very few downmods. The mcgrew account was dormant for years, and I posted under sm62704 for a year or so before I got the old account I'd lost the password to back. It didn't take long at all for the sm62704 account to get excellent karma, maybe a couple of months. When I got the mcgrew account back it started at "neutral" and was up to "excellent" within a week.

      Maybe my over 200 fans (Hi bkda!) as opposed to 17 freaks has something to do with it, too. Somebody actually bought a subscription for me!

      beats me why that is, though.

    65. Re:anonymous? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      PS- I think posting stories helps, too, especially if they get accepted.

  3. Keep It Simple, Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This seems unbalanced to me. Why would it be a criminal offence to 'download' copyrighted material but not to infringe on copyrights? The former only applies to citizens but the latter would cover corporations too (eg GPL violations) I'm all for laws that are simple in nature and easy to understand so if it must be a criminal offense to infringe on copyrights then I'm all for a simple and easy to understand law that applies equally all around. Don't take me as any kind of GPL zealot (I prefer BSD myself) but I understand that the GPL is a mechanism where the rules that they are forcing on us to benefit themselves are used to force them to act in our benefit. This kind of imbalance is the next attack on the citizenry by the corporations seeking power, make no mistake.

    1. Re:Keep It Simple, Stupid by digitig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "The law is made by the rich and powerful in order to make sure they stay that way". Piers Paul Reed, (but he may have been quoting somebody else, and from memory so may not be exact).

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  4. Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by AlterRNow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they are downloading something illegally, aren't they already criminals?

    I thought criminalising something was where you took something that wasn't illegal ( but a significant amount of people do ) and making it illegal?

    --
    The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
    1. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by slysithesuperspy · · Score: 1

      Countries like Portugal have decriminalised drugs but I think they are still illegal. I am guessing it is something to do with the enforcement. Though, I don't really know so perhaps I shouldn't have replied :)

    2. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Walterk · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Infringement of copyright doesn't fall under criminal law. It falls under database law, which is a civil.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright,_Designs_and_Patents_Act_1988

    3. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Depends on the law.

      It could be illegal to throw sweet wrappers on the street, but still not a crime.

      Breaches of contract are not normally considered criminal - the aggrieved party might file a civil suit. The cops might start looking for you if you keep not showing up in court and ignoring the court's requests.

      Now to wait for someone to say [citation needed] ;).

      --
    4. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Copyright infringments are not in the criminal code, at least not in civilized countries where the criminal code is reserved for laws "against the general population". Things like murder, rape and arson are in there, where you may assume that someone doing it is posing a threat to anyone and everyone, not just to a selected group of people, or that someone is posing a threat to life and wellbeing of a person, a group or everyone.

      In general, these things are prosecuted by the state without you requiring to sue (it's one of those things where the cases are called "the people against "+$name.

      The alternative is the civil code. Here, you have to sue if you care about someone doing something. Here you have things like slander or trespassing. I could maybe not care if someone told everyone I have a romantic inclination towards fish, or I could probably not care that my neighbor constantly walks through my yard. I have the right to make them stop, if necessary by legal force, sue them and I will get my right, but the state and attorney couldn't care less until I make the first move.

      What's been done by the RIAA (and its local counterparts) is to push copyright towards the criminal code. The idea is simple: Save money, and have you, the taxpayer, pay to protect their rights.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by impaledsunset · · Score: 1

      No, illegal and criminal are not the same things. Not everything illegal is criminal. Sometimes when you violate a law it's not a crime, just a civil offense.

      But yet, like you, I'm confused about the word "criminalize" in the title. Adding ludicrous measures against somebody doesn't equate criminalization, and when I read that something is criminalized I expect that either the police would get involved in chasing the offenders, or that it can result in jail time. There isn't anything like this mentioned in the summary. I couldn't find it in the article, either.

      Now, whether the law would actually make it criminal or no, I don't know -- I'm not good at the semantics, and when an offense becomes a crime, but the title is misleading.

    6. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by AlterRNow · · Score: 1

      Replying to myself.. but I wanted to thank those that cleared up that misconception that I had where anything violating a law was criminal.
      Cheers

      --
      The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
    7. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by pjt33 · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you read the page you linked to carefully you will find:

      The making, dealing in or use of infringing copies is a criminal offence (s. 107).

      This is an example of /. needing a "-1 Factually incorrect" to cancel "+1 Informative" mods.

    8. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by damburger · · Score: 1

      Actually no. Current British law, iirc, makes provisions for private study. Its like that in most European countries at the moment in fact; TPB was only nailed because they were making (shitloads) of money off copying.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    9. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by the_womble · · Score: 1

      Copyright infringments are not in the criminal code, at least not in civilized countries

      By that definition, the world is rapidly running out of civilized countries.

      Not that I disagree with you.

    10. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      This is an example of /. needing a "-1 Factually incorrect" to cancel "+1 Informative" mods.

      Offtopic but, how do you interpret "-1 Overrated" on a "+1 Informative"?

    11. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      A post which starts at 2 and is rated "+1 Informative", "-1 Overrated" ends up as "2, Informative". If it was overrated precisely because it isn't informative, that's not the desired result.

    12. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      But theft (physical theft) is considered a crime in civilised countries. Theft bears no damage to the general population, yet we still use public servants like policemen to chase down offenders, public servants like judges to prosecute them, and public facilities like prisons to punish them.

      I believe the reasoning behind theft being a crime is that it serves as a deterrent, and allows people to receive justice without having to dedicate an infeasible amount of time and resources into finding the prosecutor and serving them with a suit. Kinda like what copyright holders have to do now.

      And yes, making copyright infringement will make less cost for them, yes you will be protecting their rights, and yes it will cost the taxpayer to do so in the short term, but in the long term, it will result in much fairer and transparent copyright infringement prosecution system, and it will help keep prices down. So the 95+% of people who actually use copyrighted media will actually see some benefits. As to how much, it's hard to say.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    13. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Countries like Portugal have decriminalised drugs but I think they are still illegal. I am guessing it is something to do with the enforcement.

      I can't speak for Portugal but here in the states when they do that it's usually accomplished in one of two different ways:

      1) Change in enforcement. I.e: We won't arrest you for possession unless you are doing something really stupid (smoking weed in public) and even if we do arrest you we are going to give you a slap on the wrist (stay out trouble for six months and the charges go away) without a criminal record.
      2) Change in the laws. This is what my home state of New York has done. If you are caught with 25 grams or less of pot it's considered a "violation", not a misdemeanor or felony. You receive the same summons as you would for a traffic ticket and pay a $100 fine if convicted.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    14. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Theft bears no damage to the general population

      It does when the general population has to pay higher prices for merchandise because some of it keeps walking out of the store. Or when they have to pay a higher rate for homeowners/renters coverage because of the number of break-ins in their neighborhood.

      And yes, making copyright infringement will make less cost for them, yes you will be protecting their rights, and yes it will cost the taxpayer to do so in the short term, but in the long term, it will result in much fairer and transparent copyright infringement prosecution system, and it will help keep prices down.

      In the long term I don't understand why the industry is focusing so much of it's lobbying clout on going after teenagers who use Kazaa when there are whole countries out there (China, I'm looking at you) wherein the Governments all but condone copyright infringement on an industrial scale. Interestingly enough these countries are also the ones that we run a massive trade deficit with. It would seem to be in our collective interest to address this problem before we start worrying about the acne covered teenager down the street.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    15. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by ammorais · · Score: 1

      We have a very similar laws in Portugal. Consume and possession is not criminalized. We also have a limit that you can justify for consume. Everything above that limit you can be considered a drug dealer.
      We still have a very stupid understanding about copyright. There were this small music band that had everything apprehended after a police inspection on the establishment were they were playing because they had home recorded CD's with their music on it. To the police home recorded Cd's == pirate music.

    16. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      It does when the general population has to pay higher prices for merchandise because some of it keeps walking out of the store. Or when they have to pay a higher rate for homeowners/renters coverage because of the number of break-ins in their neighborhood.

      Well, yeah, but keep it down! The resident pirates don't like to consider such implied costs; it contradicts their world view (i.e. they are causing no damage).

      In the long term I don't understand why the industry is focusing so much of it's lobbying clout on going after teenagers who use Kazaa when there are whole countries out there (China, I'm looking at you) wherein the Governments all but condone copyright infringement on an industrial scale. Interestingly enough these countries are also the ones that we run a massive trade deficit with. It would seem to be in our collective interest to address this problem before we start worrying about the acne covered teenager down the street.

      It's more efficient to go after teenagers (or at least, it appears that way). They can try to reverse the situation in China, but they won't see benefits for many, many years, and the potential drain on finances would be enormous. Teenagers are simply the lowest-lying fruit.

      You honestly can't expect anything different when for-profit entities are asked to regulate their own copyrights. Perhaps if we hand enforcement over to government, we may get our priorities a little more straight.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    17. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Theft is something that could affect everyone, because everyone has something (if nothing but a wallet) that can be stolen by a thief. And while you could infringe my copyright (I do have a few programs that I sell licenses of), it's hardly something that could affect a sizable portion of the population. I mean, how many people do you know that created any content?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      They can try to reverse the situation in China, but they won't see benefits for many, many years, and the potential drain on finances would be enormous.

      I don't think "they" as in RIAA can do much about China. I do think that "they" as in the Federal Government could have some influence though. It seems absurd that we are running a trade deficit with China in the hundreds of billions of dollars while they condone the theft of billions of dollars worth of American intellectual property. The Chinese Government should do something about this or we should hit their goods with tariffs.

      It's not free trade when we pay for their crap and they steal ours.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    19. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Look, I absolutely agree with you. It would be a good move to encourage china, one way or another, to clean up their act. And it is in the government's power to do so, or at least make a decent attempt.

      However, while the copyright ball is in the corporate sector's court, and while people don't immediately connect IP enforcement with economic benefits, it's difficult to bring such schemes to the public eye.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    20. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      It's more than that. "Stealing" IP drives up prices of IP for legitimate customers. And yes, just about everyone I know buys some copyable commercial media at some time. So, yeah, as much as a single thief has the minute, damaging potential (that accumulates) to steal from almost anyone, a copyright infringer has the damaging potential to cause minute unnecessary price rises (that also accumulate).

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    21. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      Actually Commercial Copyright Infringement is in some criminal codes. Until now though those sorts of charges require you to be dealt with by law enforcement and not some minimum wage prick that sits around watching people connecting to torrents and their IP addresses. These are usually prosecuted under something like fraud and/or forgery from what I imagine.

      I agree though turning personal copyright infringement into a criminal offense would be a crime in and of itself.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    22. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Physical theft is considered a crime, because it deprives someone of a good...
      Copyright infringement on the other hand, does not deprive anyone, and it is impossible to prove that something would have been purchased had it not been available for free.
      Infact, it has been shown that copyright infringement has actually increased sales of various things, as it increases the product exposure, at least assuming the product is any good... If the product is really lousy, then people might tell their friends how crap it was and discourage them from purchasing it.. They would do this anyway, but you lose out on ripping off the original people with crap.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    23. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't directly. Someone who pirates something that they genuinely wouldn't have paid the asking price for hasn't increased the price for anyone else. By contrast, stealing a physical item that they wouldn't have paid the asking price for does impose costs on those that it is stolen from.

    24. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by drseuk · · Score: 1

      and it will help keep prices down

      So, you're saying that because the media companies won't "be losing so much to pirates" should this law pass they can then "afford" to sell CDs for less in the shops? Of course, if CDs were cheaper in the shops, people would likely be much less inclined to pirate them in the first place ... Pigs might also fly.

    25. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      It's more than that. "Stealing" IP drives up prices of IP for legitimate customers.

      Rubbish. In Hong Kong, for example, video piracy was rife several years ago. While a legit release might cost HK$100, the bootleg was about HK$30. To compete, the retail prices came down. Some even to $30 or so. Pirate versions went down a bit, but it wasn't so lucrative and now while they're still around there are much fewer bootlegs on sale. But the legit customers DID see a reduced prices because of piracy.

      And how about the very cheap version of Windpws Microsoft offers in Asia? Partly to forestall government schemes to promote Linux, but also certainly a response to the effectively free bootleg versions PCs came with as matter of course.

    26. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Bufferine · · Score: 1

      Below is the link to the relevant section of the current act

      Where did the words 'use of infringing copies' come from?

      To save clicking, here's the main section:

      107.

      Criminal liability for making or dealing with infringing articles, &c.

      â" (1) A person commits an offence who, without the licence of the copyright ownerâ"

      (a) makes for sale or hire, or

      (b) imports into the United Kingdom otherwise than for his private and domestic use, or

      (c) possesses in the course of a business with a view to committing any act infringing the copyright, or

      (d) in the course of a business â"

      (i) sells or lets for hire, or

      (ii) offers or exposes for sale or hire, or

      (iii) exhibits in public, or

      (iv) distributes, or

      (e) distributes otherwise than in the course of a business to such an extent as to affect prejudicially the owner of the copyright,

      IANAL, but that reads that the only time I, as a private citizen, for private use infringe is if I sell/hire (a) or distribute to an extent which affects the owner (e). Possessing is only bad if it is in the course of business.

      I can't find the line from the wikipedia in other articles on the web, and notably it's missing a reference to the relevant section of the act. http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Legislation&searchEnacted=0&extentMatchOnly=0&confersPower=0&blanketAmendment=0&sortAlpha=0&PageNumber=0&NavFrom=0&parentActiveTextDocId=0&activetextdocid=2250425&versionNumber=3

    27. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      I've always loved that. [Note sarcasm]

      Citation points to an article or other site stating the information you just did is close-to or completely correct. So that's different from you doing you research and saying what you've found, uh, why? Oh, because you didn't post all of the gathered information behind your point. And the site listed as the citation did. All of it.

      NOTE SARCASM.

      Trust is one of those taboo words.

    28. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by kz45 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "It doesn't directly. Someone who pirates something that they genuinely wouldn't have paid the asking price for hasn't increased the price for anyone else. By contrast, stealing a physical item that they wouldn't have paid the asking price for does impose costs on those that it is stolen from."

      Yes it does. For starters, once person may not be a direct loss in sales, but as it's shared more and more and easily accessible by the masses, the owner of the copyrighted material will see less sales over time. Also, if companies know it's easy to pirate their stuff, they will start investing more money in protection, which will drive the price up for the consumer.

    29. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    30. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      When forced to compete against their own products, and having no recourse to make the situation any more fair, naturally the prices will drop. However, with that drop in price comes a drop in something else, be it quality, quantity, risky business such as inventive/innovative works and/or security for the company.

      There's no such thing as a free lunch. The free access to valuable works comes at a price. Where that price comes from depends on how deeply fucked up your situation is.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    31. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      Or b) if you import into the UK for distribution. If you're using a stock p2p client I assume that you don't have geoip restrictions and you're automatically seeding anything you download.

    32. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Grcie · · Score: 1

      (b) imports into the United Kingdom otherwise than for his private and domestic use *otherwise than for his private and domestic use* I can import into the UK, so long as it's only for my private and domestic use - that's exactly what it says.

    33. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      Precisely, but if you're using a p2p client which then seeds it to other people you are also importing it for public, non-domestic use.

    34. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by Grcie · · Score: 1

      OK, but the parent was just talking about usage - sure, usage for distribution is bad, but usage on its own is not illegal, and the wiki article, and pretty much all the inflated news reports are extremely misleading!

    35. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      However, with that drop in price comes a drop in something else, be it quality, quantity, risky business such as inventive/innovative works and/or security for the company.

      In this case, I think it's a drop in the fat profit margins of the media companies, where they were charging more for a product that cost less to make every year (by which I meant the marginal copst: of physical duplication and distribution).

      In any case, that's a diferent issue to that I was addressing. The prices to conusmers certainly HAS come down in many cases due to "piracy" changing the marketplace. Whether the producers (not simply the distributors) are harmed is a much larger question.

    36. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      In this case, I think it's a drop in the fat profit margins of the media companies

      Media companies are typically the last to fall; it's the independent artists who really suffer. They don't have fat profit margins to bear that kind of strain.

      where they were charging more for a product that cost less to make every year (by which I meant the marginal cost: of physical duplication and distribution)

      Wait, if you're talking about a single product, where duplication costs do rapidly drop, then they charge less (generally) each year. If you're talking about the cost of producing new artists, in which case they would be charging more each year, then it doesn't cost less every year. In fact, the risk in making such an investment is growing larger and larger, thanks to piracy.

      The prices to conusmers certainly HAS come down in many cases due to "piracy" changing the marketplace. Whether the producers (not simply the distributors) are harmed is a much larger question.

      Put it this way: with copyright holders (companies or independent artists) having to compete against free copies of their own work, it's amazing to see that any of them have survived as long as they have.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    37. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Media companies are typically the last to fall; it's the independent artists who really suffer. They don't have fat profit margins to bear that kind of strain.

      What strain? You've just assumed all that: cause, effect, the lot is all just your unsupported claim.

      . If you're talking about the cost of producing new artists,

      Of course not. I SAID "by which I meant the marginal cost: of physical duplication and distribution" which you actually quoted, so I don't know how you could have missed it.

      Put it this way: with copyright holders (companies or independent artists) having to compete against free copies of their own work, it's amazing to see that any of them have survived as long as they have.

      You're just trying to pull on heartstrings without producing any actual facts. I'm sure you're sincere but you're not actually answering any of my points, just attaching your own statements to mine. Please just make an independent post rather than replying.

    38. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      What strain?

      Financial strain. If you're a commercial artist, and people are less inclined to buy your product, then that will cause strain. It ain't rocket science.

      You've just assumed all that: cause, effect, the lot is all just your unsupported claim.

      Wait, what? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

      Of course not. I SAID "by which I meant the marginal cost: of physical duplication and distribution" which you actually quoted, so I don't know how you could have missed it.

      I didn't miss it. There was just a little confusion, because you also mentioned "charging more" for the product. The "charging more" doesn't actually apply to marginal costs; it applies to new works. Prices for new works have been (largely) going up, but prices for existing prices have been (largely) dropping.

      I just wanted to clear the confusion. So you were talking about the decreasing costs and decreasing prices of existing media. If that's the case, then what's the problem?

      You're just trying to pull on heartstrings without producing any actual facts. I'm sure you're sincere but you're not actually answering any of my points, just attaching your own statements to mine. Please just make an independent post rather than replying.

      That's rubbish. You first posted about how prices have dropped in Hong Kong, and I responded with an explanation as to why that is. In your next post, you claimed that this was hurting the fat profit margins of media companies, and I answered that too. You also said that whether it hurts "producers" is a "larger question". I answered that too. The fact that it pulls at your heartstrings at the same time is a fortunate side-effect, and is simply proof that you're still human.

      As for actual facts, I have referenced plenty. It's a fact that people pirate instead of buying. Not in all cases, but sometimes. It's a fact therefore that piracy drains demand. It's a fact that low demand impact negatively on all involved on production end. And typically, low demand isn't regarded a problem because, by definition of low demand, it doesn't affect many consumers negatively. However, in this case, this low demand affects a lot people. That's another fact.

      It's also a fact that, since copyright, we've had an unprecedented explosion in the number of artists distributing the population in general. It's a fact that everything to do with our culture has been profoundly affected by copyright. It's a fact that, after years and years of success, it's now up to copyright's opponents to demonstrate that copyright is not only no longer necessary, but is making our situation significantly worse.

      It's 100% speculation to say that this is not going to happen, because most people who oppose copyright don't understand how or why copyright really works, and how much impact it has had over the past years.

      Your turn. Present some facts.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    39. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1

      Again, you're just loudly stating your opinions. I'm out of this thread.

    40. Re:Criminalise Illegal Downloaders? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      See ya.

      Out of curiosity, is it me stating my opinions that you object to, or just this perception of volume? Or is it that you can't connect my opinions with your concerns?

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  5. Ciminalise illegal downloaders? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IANAL, but if it's illegal, right, isn't it already, ok kind of illegal?

    Just a thought.

  6. Copying is stealing by wild_quinine · · Score: 5, Interesting
    It's starting to look like the war is over, and the lobbyists won. I doubt they even have to work that hard any more. The perception of the population has been changed.

    Copying is stealing.

    The very fact that we're willing to accept that sentence for discussion shows how far things have come. Stop and think about it, taken out of context. How Orwellian it sounds!

    Now that every uninformed member of society believes that copying is a criminal act, well of course it should be criminalised. That only makes sense.

    I do believe that artists and creators need to be rewarded. But more and more I'm coming around to the notion that we should scrap the whole bloody slab of law that covers IP, and start again with something sensible.

    That won't happen of course. It seems that preserving industry and building capital is the single only motivation for existence in this brave new Labour world.

    What ever happened to the notion that money is not valuable in and of itself, but only as a means to the ends we choose?

    1. Re:Copying is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      re: Whatever happened?? That was Old Labour. New Labour loves the rich, especially the hyper-rich. I prefer to call the party "New Labour" "New Tory" .

      The nail in the coffin for any semblance of being to the left is when Maggie Thatcher was feted at number 10. Of all the people.

      Thank fuck I don't live in the UK.

      New Labour, they always make me think of consultants from a company such as Mc Kinsey.

      And as for their love of private financing of everything - WHAT THE FUCK is that all about?

      They rent government office space from companies who hide their profits offshore. They allow consultancies such as Accenture who base themselves in tax-exiles to work on government projects.

      As for the ID card, let's not go down that fucking stupid waste of cash road.

      Tony Blair: What a fucking wanker.

    2. Re:Copying is stealing by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      It's starting to look like the war is over, and the lobbyists won. I doubt they even have to work that hard any more. The perception of the population has been changed.

      Copying is stealing.

      Pfff, that's a minor victory.

      They won't be happy till they reach:

      Copying is GENOCIDE!

      They're already preparing the scripts for the movies about the rise and fall of the pirate nazis; how killing jews opened the door to more heinous crimes like downloading songs or installing their games in multiple pcs.

      P.S.: Yes, I am very proud of my best Goodwin yet.

    3. Re:Copying is stealing by damburger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bullshit. Its acceptance by the mainstream media shows the irrelevance of the mainstream media. The fact that a behaviour casually classed as 'criminal' by newspapers is engaged in by such a large portion of the population shows they haven't won anything. Furthermore, the proportion of the population that does engage in this 'criminal' behaviour is disproportionately young.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    4. Re:Copying is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Copying is stealing.

      It's probably just me, but I read that sentence as saying copyright is stealing and I had to read it a couple of times to make it come out the other way...

    5. Re:Copying is stealing by griffinfinity · · Score: 1

      No it isn't. Millions have made a career from copying. Your parents and grandparents PAID to see people copy. Every rock 'n' roll band in the world copied structure, chords and vocal styling from delta blues musicians. Most died penniless . Keith Richards smirks and crows "Aw, everyone steals from each other, that's music". His reps over at Polydor have a different take on that. Jagger copied Tina Turners moves, gestures and strut. Rich Little copied every famous personality of the past millennium. I copied my friends albums, they copied mine, ad infinitum.

      Most of this would be a mute point save for the fact that music lovers around the globe have been accused, prosecuted, jailed, and had their parents jailed and fined in the name of 'justice'. Lives have been altered because a kid was doing what his friends do. As all this occurred, fraud and theft on the largest scale ever seen bankrupted everything from your kids college fund to your grandparents retirement funds. Consider that facts and figures were provided to the SEC and NOTHING was done. Perhaps, the feds were preoccupied over at your local ISP, serving warrants.

      So where does it all end? Thank god we have progressed to the point (almost) that will finally see the physical ownership/storage of music come to an end. Technology will dictate that every bit of data be ubiquitous.

      BTW, they won't confiscate your old vinyl. You'll get to keep it. After all, they have bigger fish to fry, right?

    6. Re:Copying is stealing by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Its acceptance by the mainstream media shows the irrelevance of the mainstream media. The fact that a behaviour casually classed as 'criminal' by newspapers is engaged in by such a large portion of the population shows they haven't won anything. Furthermore, the proportion of the population that does engage in this 'criminal' behaviour is disproportionately young.

      But the mainstream media aren't irrelevant.

      Those of us reading /. constitute the tiniest minority, and we are precisely those educated in this field. The majority absolutely do believe what the mainstream media tell them.

      Sure that doesn't stop people copying, any more than a notice in the Times about casual theft in the workplace would stop Joe Bloggs from taking home a few ballpoints or a ream of paper.

      But the damage is done. Yes, even those kids who download anyway believe that it is stealing. They just don't care.

      They'll care when it lands them a criminal sentence. And the laws criminalising it will be much easier to pass because, trust me, every teenager I know, and I'll warrant every teenager they know as well, fully believes that copying is stealing.

    7. Re:Copying is stealing by Znork · · Score: 1

      The perception of the population has been changed.

      I doubt it, most (online) polls I've seen show very little acceptance for the ip lobbyist view.

      Further, vpns and f2f networks are already getting wider deployments all the time. VPNs bypasses the snooping, and once the move to f2f becomes prevalent it'll all just be encrypted friend-copies-to-friend which is basically untracable and unmonitorable.

      start again with something sensible.

      Without a doubt. It's not very hard to construct sensible systems of reward for creativity, as long as one starts out with clearly defined goals of getting appropriate rewards to the creators. The IP system was always intended as a means of having the middle men support the crown by handing them indirect taxation right, so it's no wonder it tends to be inequitable and draconian.

    8. Re:Copying is stealing by damburger · · Score: 1

      7 million filesharers in the UK. Hardly a 'tiny' minority. Most of those people don't go around nicking cars, and thus they do differentiate between sharing data and stealing.

      The whole 'copying is stealing' is so obviously wrong it can't possibly last. Cognitive dissonance will stop it becoming an accepted part of law.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    9. Re:Copying is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's starting to look like the war is over, and the lobbyists won.

      No not really. The lobbyist cannot win. A few people cannot win over the rest of the world. They might score a short term victory but in the end, they cannot win.

      The more restricting these laws get, the closer we get to a state where too many people are upset and act against it.

      Even IF they got to a point where everybody adhered to their corrupt laws, they cannot win. People have only this much money to spare and it's getting less and less. Media isn't necessary to live and if things get too expensive, free music and indies will become more popular. If they try to abolish free music/indies, things will get even more tense. Eventually the shit will hit the fan.

      Every system dies at one point. No matter how good or bad it is. Good systems tend to whither slowly while bad systems tend to end violently.

    10. Re:Copying is stealing by cliffski · · Score: 1

      "What ever happened to the notion that money is not valuable in and of itself, but only as a means to the ends we choose?"

      explain to my landlord why money isn't important, and ill be happy to reverse my position on copyright.
      People who make a living from creating digitally encodable products actually have the same bills to pay as everyone else.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    11. Re:Copying is stealing by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      explain to my landlord why money isn't important, and ill be happy to reverse my position on copyright. People who make a living from creating digitally encodable products actually have the same bills to pay as everyone else.

      He doesn't want the money for its own sake - he's got plans for it. You're missing the point. Money is what we use as a standard for trade. The things we are trading are the only things of value. People who want money simply because it is money are sick, or stupid, or both. It is useful only as a potential.

      What I'm worried about is that our current government worships money for its own sake. They're like the new rich - greedy, and endlessly corruptible. They'll defend industry at the cost of the arts - and I think this is probably where we'll agree - the arts need a chance to grow!

    12. Re:Copying is stealing by cliffski · · Score: 1

      so next time you get made redundant because your employer couldn't sell any products due to people helping themselves to them, I'm sure you will just smile and say

      "its fair enough, money isn't important"

      if you really believe that, North Korea will welcome you with open arms. Funny how communism never really took off as an economic success isn't it?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    13. Re:Copying is stealing by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      so next time you get made redundant because your employer couldn't sell any products due to people helping themselves to them, I'm sure you will just smile and say "its fair enough, money isn't important" if you really believe that, North Korea will welcome you with open arms. Funny how communism never really took off as an economic success isn't it?

      You're a zealot, Cliff. Listen to what I'm saying.

      All I'm putting forwards is the idea that if pursuit of money gets in the way of the REASON for money, then this is a bad thing, and a shortsighted act.

      I'm not saying rob the artists. I'm not saying down with copyright. I'm not saying abolish money.

      The only thing I'm even suggesting is that our current government has its priorities wrong. We're talking about an industry that EXISTS TO SUPPORT creative endeavor having a negative effect on that creative endeavor through pure, blind greed - and our government going along with it because pure, blind greed is their calling card.

    14. Re:Copying is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I have been COPYING music for 30 years, when cassette tapes came out the same cry went up. It will ruin the industry, people will stop making music, think of the poor starving artists you are stealing from. But they had no way of finding out how many tapes I was giving out, or tracking which records I borrowed. One of the best things about having a library card back then was taking out records and recording them.

      They are desperate but most of us who are over 40 remember the crap from back then, and now we are starting to get into postions where we can tell these guys to shove it up their arse

    15. Re:Copying is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mandy's not doing this to better the arts, the consumer or anything like that. He's been bribed - I mean, intensely lobbied - into taking this stance. Why, I don't know, since he's not short of money and can walk in and out of government as he pleases. He's doing all this for the corporations who have been ripping US, THE CONSUMER, off for years. So let's do it back to them. If a few jobs are lost, so what? Imagine how many artists are in debt now because they were led to believe they'd be well off by signing a contract with one of his bedpals. Down with the system, the dinosaurs need to die out!

      And Mandy needs to leave the UK and go hop into bed with one of his Russian billionaire lovers and never return. This country would be so much better without him.

  7. *sigh* by tygerstripes · · Score: 5, Informative

    Illegal != Criminal. There are whole swathes of law which are not "criminal law".

    --
    Meta will eat itself
    1. Re:*sigh* by tygerstripes · · Score: 1

      PS. Sorry, I was rather rude. It's a reasonable question if you don't already know the answer.

      --
      Meta will eat itself
    2. Re:*sigh* by AlterRNow · · Score: 1

      No worries, to me it wasn't rude at all, just "matter-of-factly". It's all good :)

      --
      The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
    3. Re:*sigh* by FreakyGreenLeaky · · Score: 1

      No worries, I forgive you too. However, let's not be rude again, shall we?

    4. Re:*sigh* by drseuk · · Score: 1

      /. Love in at six. See you there /puppies xxx

    5. Re:*sigh* by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      That's true, but is this really being added to criminal law, or are they just increasing the allowed awards/punishments in civil suits?

  8. Computer ID numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The data would be anonymous, but serious repeat infringers would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers.

    Computer ID numbers? You can track those on the interweb?

    1. Re:Computer ID numbers by mad_minstrel · · Score: 1

      Wait, what number is that? I haven't IDd my computers. Maybe they mean MACs or something. But that only identifies a network interface and not a computer, let alone a user.

      --
      May the source be with you.
    2. Re:Computer ID numbers by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Wait, what number is that? I haven't IDd my computers. Maybe they mean MACs or something. But that only identifies a network interface and not a computer, let alone a user.

      You're probably under the impression that you'll actually have a real chance to fight this in front of a jury. This will probably be handled by the ISP up till the point that they're fed up and ready to either bankrupt or jail you.

      At that point you may get a trial, but what limitations on evidence will there be? If all the jury is allowed to hear is that you've already been caught red-handed by the ISP and sanctioned on multiple occasions, and you're prevented from bringing in more "evidence" to the contrary than what was presented to your ISP, (which made their decision in private with little or no notice as stated in most ISP TOS's so you actually didn't know you were in legal jeopardy to even think about *needing* any evidence or presenting it anywhere) then you're chances for a jury to find in your favor are slim.

      If you think that couldn't happen just look at most versions of the infamous "three strikes laws" that have been pushed lately, thank goodness with limited success so far. Most of these have been proposed with no real recourse for the accused to fight them.

      I swear, every day the West is getting more police-state and the East is becoming more free. Pity for those of us who may have to live through the time in the middle where there's no place to be relatively left alone by government either in the East OR the West.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    3. Re:Computer ID numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woooosh.

  9. Lord Mandelson should read by stewski · · Score: 1

    http://www.featuredartistscoalition.com/showscreen.php?site_id=161&screentype=folder&screenid=2984 and think about what these high profile artists want, not what the pressure groups from the record labels want!

  10. So we're still shouting 'Thief! Thief' then.... by Tomsk70 · · Score: 1

    ...for games and music that we *wouldn't have bought anyway*.

    Remember folks, home taping is killing music.

    1. Re:So we're still shouting 'Thief! Thief' then.... by agentgonzo · · Score: 1

      And "VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone". I've met Jack Valenti and he seriously does believe that everyone who copies everything is a criminal.

    2. Re:So we're still shouting 'Thief! Thief' then.... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Next we'll outlaw instruments, after all YouTube is full of people playing contemporary songs without paying the RIAA! Making music is killing music!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:So we're still shouting 'Thief! Thief' then.... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Youtube pays the PRS a royalty.

    4. Re:So we're still shouting 'Thief! Thief' then.... by Tomsk70 · · Score: 1

      Heheheh he's absolutely correct.

      However, considering that selling anything for more than it's actually worth (company costs included) is perfectly legal (even though it's basically a form of fraud), I'm not sure why they continually act so surprised that no-one else sees things the way they do :-)

      But regardless, I will treat this as a UK MP would - if caught, I will then buy the product, not pay any fines, and insist that I have 'done nothing wrong' :-)

    5. Re:So we're still shouting 'Thief! Thief' then.... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      And don't forget "The VCR is to the film industry what Jack the Ripper was to women".

    6. Re:So we're still shouting 'Thief! Thief' then.... by Tomsk70 · · Score: 1

      And there you have it.

      I put up a humourous comment, and get a score of 1: at least two others put up similarly humourous comments, and they all get 2.

      Slashdot = desperatley pretending Linux/ FF aren't 10 years too late :-)

  11. This news is from the 16th by bheer · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Reg covered it yesterday and noted that Mandelson denied this report -- given they're due for an election in less than a year I can't believe they'd go out of their way to alienate voters.

    Offtopic, British lords are so hilarious. There's a secretary of transport called Lord Adonis. Had to chuckle at that.

    1. Re:This news is from the 16th by krou · · Score: 3, Funny

      Mandelson denied this report

      Well, that's that settled then.

      --
      'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
    2. Re:This news is from the 16th by leonstr · · Score: 1

      Offtopic, British lords are so hilarious. There's a secretary of transport called Lord Adonis. Had to chuckle at that.

      Adonis is his real name (formerly Andrew Adonis, he's of Greek descent) and has the ironic nickname "Muscles". In fairness however he's doing a great job (unlike Mandy aka The Sinister Minister). The really rubbish thing is that both Adonis and Mandleson are key government ministers and neither are elected. The pretense of democracy is looking pretty thin now...

    3. Re:This news is from the 16th by Xest · · Score: 1

      "given they're due for an election in less than a year I can't believe they'd go out of their way to alienate voters."

      I guess you don't know much about British politics. The ruling Labour party has spent the last few years doing just that, this is why they've lost every local council election and took a severe blow in the European parliamentary elections in the last year or two.

      They've been in power 12 years and lost sight of what the public care about, that doesn't matter to them anymore, they believe they're in power for good regardless and push their own agenda no matter the fact it's an absolute minority view.

      Mandelson has also been caught lying on multiple occasions, in fact, he was kicked out the Labour party twice in the last 12 years for lying over something that was outright criminal. This is Mandelson, if he says he didn't do it, he's lying.

    4. Re:This news is from the 16th by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      The Reg covered it yesterday and noted that Mandelson denied this report -- given they're due for an election in less than a year I can't believe they'd go out of their way to alienate voters.

      New Labour are effectively a lame duck government at this point: they have no realistic chance of retaining power after the next election. Indeed, IIRC there have been low points in their popularity recently where according to the polls and given how our electoral system works, they might even have been pushed into third place if the election had been held at that time.

      Unfortunately, this puts them rather in the position of a trapped animal that has no choice but to fight: they have nothing left to lose, so they can institute as many poor policies as they like in the next year and no-one can do anything to stop them or punish them. Thus we see the continued madness with things like ID cards and databases (which pretty much all of the other big parties oppose), and we also see lobbyist-friendly measures in fields like copyright that aren't important enough to swing lots of votes but do gather favour for when electoral funding time comes around.

      Oh, and Mandelson is the textbook example of why our political system is broken: he couldn't hold on to legitimate, elected office, and for years he's been doing the rounds in unelected but powerful positions thanks to friends in high places. Then again, I suppose it's no less damning that he should head the government in Brown's absence than that Brown himself should head the government when his party were elected after giving explicit guarantees that people weren't voting for this scenario. The sooner we get move to genuinely representative democracy in this country, the better.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  12. This is interesting by ProfYaff · · Score: 2, Informative

    Despite what Darth Mandelson says, it is a little odd that these plans have come out just after he attended a dinner with David Geffen, who is a massive critic of file sharing: http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article6797844.ece

    1. Re:This is interesting by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

      Indeed, this nice meal with Mr Geffen was surely nothing short of the best. I very much doubt it was a fact finding mission, a discussion over pizza and a couple of cans of pop.

      This sort of thing needs to be made illegal, not downloading media. Politicians are supposed to represent all of the people, not just the rich and famous.

  13. media types by EasyTarget · · Score: 3, Informative

    So, lord Mandy, a total media wonk (and highly manipulative individual) has gotten together with other wonks in the media to agree to 'crack down' on piracy. How nice.

    This is easy to beat folks; deprive them of money and mandy will slime away, like most modern politicians he's totally besotted with influence and power. Take away the music industries money and they loose that influence, and Mandy will sleeze away from them looking for the next big thing.

    Media types need to understand Economics 101, you used to be able to charge 20 euros for an album and I'd pay because it was the only way I could get the music in hi-quality for listening wto whenever I wanted. Ok.

    But now it is worth a 10 cents or less to me. This is an economic problem and trying to use the law to distort the market is anti-capitalistic.

    Do what I do, and totally stop paying for media. Not by piracy, but just by sticking only to free stuff. Plenty of original music gets delivered straight to my ears, completely legally, without the 'music industry' profiteering at all.

    I pay for my internet connection because that is a physical service, and I'll accept a moderate amount of advertising with my media, but that is all..

    I choose to get it direct from the artists (and through portals like magnatunes etc..); and if I am not allowed to download music from a site created or controlled directly by the artists, full quality, free in both senses of the word, then I simply move along. I support artists directly with concert attendance and buying merchandise. But again, I check to see how deeply the 'music industry' is involved in the process and avoid venues/merchandising that they control.

    Basically, I am using capitalism to solve the problem. Any objections from the 'industry' to that?

    Video is more of a problem, I still go to cinemas, and there is a lot of entertaining free video out there, but I still watch TV for my sci-fi, and pay for that because I have decided it is worth it.

    --
    "Oops, I always forget the purpose of competition is to divide people into winners and losers." - Hobbes
    1. Re:media types by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      Basically, I am using capitalism to solve the problem. Any objections from the 'industry' to that?

      How dare you not give away all your money to the music industry? Don't you know they're the ones who gave you Britney Spears and Nicole Simpson?!? The black vans are on their way, we hope your stay in our, ahem, re-edutainment camp will make you see the light.

    2. Re:media types by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plenty of original music gets delivered straight to my ears, completely legally, without the 'music industry' profiteering at all.

      Are you sure? Depending on your country, there are mandatory fees on blank CDs, DVDs, printers, scanners, copiers, pinting paper, USB sticks, hard drives, computers, music streamed via the internet, public performances and so on and so forth. You'd be suprised in how many ways they cash in multiple times.

      Some are already discussing further fees on internet connections. You may not have realised how far their lobbyism goes.

    3. Re:media types by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Basically, I am using capitalism to solve the problem. Any objections from the 'industry' to that?

      Yes, they object mightily; they just don't get it. You can't compete with free, but you can use free to make money with. If I've never heard your music I'm not likely to buy any of it.

    4. Re:media types by damburger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Capitalism is socialism for the rich

      Mining had to die, because 'the market' said so. Manufacturing, shipbuilding, all the other things had to go to. But when industries that the ruling classes have deep interests in, such as media or banking, start losing money - they must be saved to 'safeguard jobs' and 'protect creativity'.

      Twas ever thus. The market promotes self-interest, and self-interest distorts the market for its own benefit. Capitalism always does this.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    5. Re:media types by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      The problem is that no matter what you or I do there will always be people out there sharing files in large quantities. The data on how many will always be ambiguous and pretty easy to manipulate. If the record or music industry take a big blow, they will pretty much always be able to spin it as losses caused by pirating as they're doing now.

  14. Punishment to fit the Crime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not that I really want to help groups like the RIAA But what if they treated it like a speeding fine! Everyone speeds sometimes, if you get caught you pay $100. Most people won't be bothered to argue against it. http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/04/462.asp The can make billions from it! I think going after 1 person for millions of dollars is a stupid approach, why not go after 100,000 people for $100

    1. Re:Punishment to fit the Crime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      In Britain if you're caught speeding, you pay 60 pounds and get 3 points on your license. Get 12 points within 3 years (or something like that) and you lose your license.

    2. Re:Punishment to fit the Crime by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Sure you do, except for all the little get-outs they keep trying to introduce, like making it only two points for slight speeding, or letting you take a "speed awareness" course to get out of some of the penalty.

      These measures conveniently mean that they can fine incidental speeders more often before taking them off the road.

      Now, either slightly speeding is inherently dangerous, or it is not. If it is, then those dangerous drivers should be taken off the road quickly, to keep everyone else safe. If it is not, then there is no excuse for penalising people who accidentally exceed the limit at the wrong moment and get caught. But saying that it's serious enough to merit significant financial penalties, yet safe enough to leave the offenders on the road (and paying all the associated taxes, of course) is just hypocrisy.

      The real solution, of course, is to do away with the artificial limits, look at each case on its merits, and if someone was actually driving dangerously or inconsiderately, punish them accordingly. But that requires actual police officers, court time, and due process. It's much easier to create a technical offence and automate enforcement without troubling over those other little details.

      Oh, sorry, we were talking about copyright law not speeding, weren't we? I wonder how I mixed up the two areas, they're not at all alike.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  15. What about other 'copyright criminals' by stiggle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Like those companies which abuse the GPL and release media STB but not the source code for them? Oh, like Humax for their Foxsat-HDR box as (and I directly quote them) "the consumer can't update the firmware so there is no need to release the source code we use".

    Thats just as much a breach of copyright as someone downloading a TV show off a torrent site.
    So will Mandelson remove their net connection

    1. Re:What about other 'copyright criminals' by chrb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Has this appeared on gpl-violations.org yet? Given that Humax is a German company I'd have thought that Harald Welte would be interested.

    2. Re:What about other 'copyright criminals' by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Violating one of those freedom licenses is about re-establishing proper restrictions and lockdowns on the user. Why whould good-guy companies who do this be treated as criminals? They are keeping society functioning, since with liberty it would go to hell very quickly.

  16. Copyright is stealing by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It deprives us from works becoming public property long after they cease to be economically feasible, being held hostage by the 'rights owners' who refuse to let them go into PD and be renewed, to serve as a foundation for new work, new art, as it has been so many times before. We are deprived from the same rights that authors and musicians during the times enjoyed, to look at what was, rethink it, rephrase it and wrap it in new clothes. Think of all the plays and movies that are based on the basic idea of Romeo and Juliet (and I'm not talking about cheezy works like the one movie with Leonardo), something that could not be done if Shakespeare lived and worked today.

    How many songs have been written that used classic tunes and parts thereof as their base, rearranged and reworked to fit the tastes of today? Have you ever heard Vanessa Mae play Toccata and Fuge? If Bach lived today he could demand that his work is to be played with organs only and we would never hear this goosebump-creating work of violin again. Ever.

    You see how easily that argument is turned around? Why shouldn't we spin "copyright is stealing" in return?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Copyright is stealing by stupid_is · · Score: 1

      Have you ever heard Vanessa Mae play Toccata and Fuge?

      I have now, thanks :-)

      --
      -- Intelligence is soluble in alcohol
    2. Re:Copyright is stealing by migla · · Score: 1

      How is the parent a troll? Did someone just look at the subject and assume the post says the opposite of what the post actually says?

      --
      Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
    3. Re:Copyright is stealing by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 0, Troll

      The problem then is that your argument is much weaker for this exact reason:

      It deprives us from works becoming public property long after they cease to be economically feasible

      It's not depriving you a helluva lot more than the alternative, i.e. the works not being created in the first place. For any commercial work created under copyright, there is a very good chance that it would never have been created without copyright.

      In fact, that statement is yet another example of the deep sense of entitlement that has permeated our hearts and minds over culture since piracy became popular.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    4. Re:Copyright is stealing by damburger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, the old 'Big Lie' method of propaganda. Just keep repeating it!

      You assert that without copyright there is no content.

      Therefore Linux does not exist, I have a computer at home that displays nothing but a blank screen, and I only imagine it has an operating system in my diseased CyberCommie mind.

      Also, music came into existence with copyright. Prior to the 18th century music was a concept unknown to the human race. The 10,000 year old wind instrument recently dug up was clearly as fraudulent as all the dinosaur skulls that ruin nice peoples bedtime stories.

      Furthermore, there is a perfect correlation between how much revenue a film generates and its artistic merit. Expensive movies are critically acclaimed and popular, movies made on a shoestring budget are critically panned and never attract an audience.

      It must be nice to live in a complete fantasy world :)

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    5. Re:Copyright is stealing by svtdragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the GP's not arguing against copyright per se, so much as against this neverending copyright scheme we seem to have had thrust upon us.

      When over half a century has passed, something like Disney's perpetual ownership of Mickey Mouse--long after the figure himself has become, in effect, a part of the public domain (to use the term in the sense in which it was intended, and not the legal one), so much so that passing allusions are sufficient to invoke collective association with the character--said perpetual ownership is impeding progress. Walt Disney is dead, and I don't think that it's in anyone's best interest (nor was it the intent of copyright laws) to subsidize the existence of the creator's children long after he's dead. People want to get paid for what they do, and that's understandable and perfectly legitimate. But I think any reasonable artist/musician/etc. is not so blind as to expect their work to support their children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren and so on for a hundred years after they die, or even to desire that to happen. (IMHO, nothing stifles creativity and sense of self like having everything handed to you--but that's only MHO.)

      It's an inherently arbitrary and subjective assessment to give any kind of fixed-length term to a copyright, but I think we all agree that there should be some protection for those who have created these works. The question is how much is sufficient to inspire continued creativity and invention. And that is what we should be debating.

    6. Re:Copyright is stealing by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You assert that without copyright there is no content.

      Did I? I don't recall doing that. I do, however, remember saying that any given commercial, copyrighted work, there's a good chance that that work would not have been created without copyright.

      Unfortunately "argument by strawman" is not generally considered a logically valid argument.

      Therefore Linux does not exist

      Even though your conclusion is based on fallacious premises, you could also have picked a better example, i.e. one that doesn't use copyright, i.e. one that was always in the public domain since creation.

      It must be nice to live in a complete fantasy world :)

      I hear it's also nice to live in a world where every argument against you can be shoehorned in a nice, easily-refutable mould. It, too, is a fantasy world, but I've never managed to let go and roll with it. Those pesky people with intelligence and moderation in their views keep getting in the way.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    7. Re:Copyright is stealing by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Don't take the subject line literally, it's as much an emotionalized tool as the "copying is theft" tagline. I do actually support a limited copyright that offers a time limited monopoly on content. My key complaint is that copyright has become limitless. "Create once, cash in forever" is the creed of the content industry. And that, I do strongly belive, is wrong.

      You talk about entitlement. So do I. And I do think the content industry feels entitled to milk forever the customer of work they did once, a long time ago. Disney has been milking the Mickey franchize for over 70 years now. 70 years. Three generations. Or the average lifetime of a human being. The person that originally created Mickey has been dead for a long time now. For almost as long as I live. And it's tempting. Who wouldn't want to collect money for something they did once in their life?

      The idea behind copyright was to give you, the artist, the ability to recover your investment. And, bluntly, if you can't do that in 10 years, you won't in 100 either. If you can in 10, why do you need 100?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Copyright is stealing by damburger · · Score: 1

      You first stated that 'the alternative' to works becoming public property is that works wouldn't be created at all. This is what I responded to, and as such your application of what my response to your second statement is an example of the very thing you accuse me of: a strawman.

      As for Linux using copyright; very technically true, but missing the point and you damn well know it. Linux uses copyright to keep itself safe from commercial exploitation, which could not occur in an environment where it wasn't possible to make money distributing data.

      After this display of straw-manning and dissembling, you then astonishingly claim to be more intelligent than me, clearly under the impression you've won the argument. A classic example of the Dunning-Kruger theory in action I think!

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    9. Re:Copyright is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is a very good chance that it would never have been created without copyright

      I'm a bit amused... GP's post cited several examples refuting your reply. Very prescient of him.

    10. Re:Copyright is stealing by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      You first stated that 'the alternative' to works becoming public property is that works wouldn't be created at all. This is what I responded to

      It was clear from the context that I was referring to copyrighted works, specifically economically-motivated works. The OP was referring to works being "stolen" from the public domain (although they really weren't in the public domain in the first place), that is works locked down with copyright, and even made reference to them being "economically feasible". I'm pretty sure it's clear.

      Not that I'm saying you're a liar, or what you did wasn't understandable, but I think you didn't really read my comment, or its context, properly, and take the due care necessary to truly counter an argument.

      I however, as I'm expected to do, assumed that you are fully informed about what we are discussing, and that you've read my post, and given that assumption, calling your argument a strawman is completely justified. All I can do is respond to what you wrote, and you wrote a strawman.

      Also, even if I were incorrect in categorising your argument as a strawman, I wasn't actually changing your argument in order to make it easier to counter, thus it wouldn't have been a strawman anyway; it would have been just plain wrong.

      Like you are now.

      As for Linux using copyright; very technically true, but missing the point and you damn well know it.

      No. And in fact, this is another (most probably accidental) strawman. You are changing the meaning of my argument from a valid point to being something deliberately created to be obtuse. But, I'm not reading too much into it, since your reaction is reasonable for someone unaware of the workings behind my argument.

      Secondly, you also didn't have a point in the first place, since my post wasn't referring to non-commercial copyrighted material.

      Thirdly, Linux benefits in a very real way from copyright. It has accelerated its own growth by roping in corporate supporters, who are willing to share the benefits of paid work for the benefit of everyone. That was my point. It makes a real difference.

      While it's possible that Linux, or something similar, would have existed without copyright, it would have less supporters and would take longer to grow and evolve. This effect feeds back into itself, because it results in potentially less users (due to potentially less quality), which would result in less users.

      After this display of straw-manning and dissembling, you then astonishingly claim to be more intelligent than me

      Hey, I can only work with what you give me.

      And remember that is was a very indirect claim, and it was buried behind absurd hypotheses, like you confusing arguments that superficially sound like the cookie-cutter arguments with the cookie-cutter arguments themselves. It's an absurd claim because most people out there can identify that the two arguments are not necessarily equal, and I'm sure you're among them, since you clearly have the intelligence to string some arguments together.

      clearly under the impression you've won the argument

      It's become increasingly evident, yes.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    11. Re:Copyright is stealing by houghi · · Score: 1

      Where do you start this? On one side you have that nothing ever becomes public property. On the other side you have that everything is public property.
      It is easy to explain that nothing ever becoming public property is bad does not need any explanation here.
      Everything becoming public property is a bit harder. If I publish it, should it then become public property or (for the sake of argument) one step further when I think about it? One _could_ defend that if I think about it and not publish it, I deprive the public of their property and thus steal from them. That also is a very bad way to go.

      The ideal situation is to have it somewhere in between. The big question is where in the middle? 1 year? 5 years? 25 years? 75 years? Depending on what it is, like code or a book or a movie? Till the maker is dead?

      And if talking about the maker, what if it is something made by a collection of people, like the Linux code or a movie? Not having copyright might be a solution, but remember that without copyright you will not have a GPL or any other of that type of licenses.

      Whether that is good or bad I do not know.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    12. Re:Copyright is stealing by damburger · · Score: 1

      Basically, tldr because I'm at work and don't want to waste too much time on the likes of you. But I get the jist.

      You are backtracking on your original statement (which I suppose started with the statement immediately after it, oh well...). You now admit Linux would exist without copyrights. You have gone from outright stating that the alternative to indefinite copyright was not having anything produced at all, to admitting that a vast OS would have been produced anyway in the absence of copyright. You are just made of fail.

      Furthermore, you have quietly backed away from my comments about movies and music, presumably because you've nothing to say. Your initial statement is clearly ridiculous in light of thousands of years of human music predating copyright.

      Yet you still act superior. You truly are too fucking dumb to understand how fucking dumb you are.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    13. Re:Copyright is stealing by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      I think our views are not so far from each other. I support copyright reform, so long as it's well thought out and tested (if possible). Shortening terms clearly fall under both categories, since they worked similarly well previously.

      You talk about entitlement. So do I. And I do think the content industry feels entitled to milk forever the customer of work they did once, a long time ago. Disney has been milking the Mickey franchize for over 70 years now. 70 years. Three generations. Or the average lifetime of a human being. The person that originally created Mickey has been dead for a long time now. For almost as long as I live. And it's tempting. Who wouldn't want to collect money for something they did once in their life?

      Entitlement is indeed on both sides. Bono supports unlimited copyright, based on the rhetoric that the art is "theirs". Period. There's an incredible sense of entitlement in the idea that death + 75 years is not enough time for art to be theirs. Not only will they be dead, their children will probably be dead by then.

      That example is as bad, if not worse, than the argument that because an artwork exists under copyright, that it now is property of the people. Not that you support such a philosophy, but that's what it sounded like. And yes, it sounds incredibly entitled. I am pleased that you cleared that up, but we both know that it's your original comment that will be more popular with the moderators. Slashdot seems to want to hear of how the **AA is entitled, but not how that entitlement is countered by their own entitlement.

      Anyway, in short, I agree with what you mean, not what you said.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    14. Re:Copyright is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to actually read Copyright law before you write extensive comments like this. Copyright does not stop people from making derivative works ... it simply means they need to at least share credit (and any financial gain) with the person who composed the work.

      By making uninformed blanket statements like this you extensively undermine your argument and make it a lot easier to get laws passed against you. Opening your mouth without actually knowing what your talking about does damage.

    15. Re:Copyright is stealing by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Basically, tldr because I'm at work and don't want to waste too much time on the likes of you. But I get the jist.

      Good, good...

      You are backtracking on your original statement

      *faceplam*

      I said exactly the same thing two statements in a row, just with some things in bold. I then clarified in absolutely no uncertain terms what I meant by said bolded expressions, and why the context provided more than ample information to deduce the rest.

      You now admit Linux would exist without copyrights.

      It was never in dispute. I went further to say that Linux would probably exist, but it had the definite potential to suffer in terms of quality.

      You have gone from outright stating that the alternative to indefinite copyright was not having anything produced at all

      Yeah, that I will backtrack on. I wasn't aware that we were talking about infinite copyrights. I had just assumed we were talking about copyrights of any length.

      On the other hand, if I were reading my previous comment, it would have been clear enough, by the fact that I never even indirectly referred to infinite copyright, not even when explicitly outlining the context I was using, that I wasn't supporting infinite copyright.

      You are just made of fail.

      If you want to win an argument against me, you must, must, read my comments. It's an absolute must. I choose my words carefully, and I anticipate many of the arguments made against me (e.g. all but one of the ones thrown at me by you so far). Read them, or otherwise you end up looking like an idiot (whether you are or not).

      Furthermore, you have quietly backed away from my comments about movies and music, presumably because you've nothing to say.

      I assume you refer to these right?

      Also, music came into existence with copyright. Prior to the 18th century music was a concept unknown to the human race. The 10,000 year old wind instrument recently dug up was clearly as fraudulent as all the dinosaur skulls that ruin nice peoples bedtime stories.

      Furthermore, there is a perfect correlation between how much revenue a film generates and its artistic merit. Expensive movies are critically acclaimed and popular, movies made on a shoestring budget are critically panned and never attract an audience.

      I didn't respond since I thought I had punched a hole in your main argument. Never mind, I'll respond to them now.

      Essentially, I never claimed, like I've consistently said, that music would not exist without copyright. It's the same argument as with the Linux thing. I was referring to the commercial works that form a vast majority of our culture, and a cover a vast majority of our preferences. Saying that I was claiming that music couldn't exist beforehand is part of the same strawman that you were using before (which you later half-admitted was a mistake on your part). I assumed that you'd drop the point.

      Your second paragraph I skipped over, since I assumed that it was going to be more of the same strawman, but in fact, I was wrong. It actually has relevance to my point, unlike the others.

      However, I can say that the fact that cheap movies can be critically acclaimed and popular doesn't at all disprove my point. Show me a time when free movies (that is, movies distributed freely, immediately, without any restrictions whatsoever) are common, popular, and acclaimed. That will disprove my argument. So far, the vast majority of movies with any kind of popularity are made for profit, or at least to recoup costs.

      There, I answered both your points.I hope we can get this strawman argument out of the way.

      Your initial statement is clearly ridiculous in light of thousands of years of human music pred

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    16. Re:Copyright is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your 10 year argument does not stand up to reality ... by your argument, Mac McAnally should see no income from the multi-million dollar single "Down the Road" as released by Kenny Chesney simply because he wrote it 16 years ago.

      So Kenny should get millions of dollars, but Mac gets nothing simply because his song didn't get popular fast enough?

      I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's a stupid argument.

    17. Re:Copyright is stealing by damburger · · Score: 1

      Being verbose doesn't equate to being right. Writing stuff like '*facepalm*' doesn't equate to being right. Simply put, you made an asinine assertion, I put it down swiftly, and you went off on a pointless semantics safari to avoid the fact I just blew you out the fucking water with my first shot.

      You tried to claim that lack of copyright would kill production dead, and everything after was an attempt to backtrack and bullshit and try and score some 'win'. You are a perfect example of the low level of discourse on the Internet.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    18. Re:Copyright is stealing by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Being verbose doesn't equate to being wrong either. In order to tell the difference you need to read my comments.

      Writing things like *facepalm* is a very concise expression of my reaction to your statements. It is, in fact, the very opposite of verbose.

      Simply put, you made an asinine assertion, I put it down swiftly, and you went off on a pointless semantics safari to avoid the fact I just blew you out the fucking water with my first shot.

      Wait, I'm dodging your arguments? You? The one who can't seem to get through my arguments enough to respond to a single one of them? The one who's entire argument now is about attacking the same unilaterally defeated point over and over again? The one based entirely upon a strawman that you yourself admitted to (without admitting any sort of blame)?

      If you want to recoup some dignity, repost what you want me to respond to, and I will respond to it in concise bullet points. It won't have the absolute precision in language, but you'll be able to read it.

      You tried to claim that lack of copyright would kill production dead

      Not once. Show me the quote to disprove that.

      everything after was an attempt to backtrack and bullshit and try and score some 'win'.

      My first statement, after repeating almost word for word my first statement, was to then explain that your predicament was understandable.

      After calling you out on the incorrect use of the word 'strawman', I then stayed away from semantics altogether, despite your claims.

      You are a perfect example of the low level of discourse on the Internet.

      I had a very similar discussion recently. I provided comprehensive arguments against what he provided me, and he insisted on repeating the same argument over and over (despite the stronger counterargument being presented without challenge over and over), responding to only what he wanted to (which shortened his replies considerably), and throwing in ad hominem attacks whenever he could. I eventually dismissed him as a troll and invited him to actually respond with some serious discussion, and predictably, he took that as an admission of defeat.

      You're not quite so bad, but you really are getting there.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    19. Re:Copyright is stealing by dissy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First off, sorry you got modded troll.
      Too many moronic moderators these days use Troll in place of "I don't agree" :/

      It's not depriving you a helluva lot more than the alternative, i.e. the works not being created in the first place. For any commercial work created under copyright, there is a very good chance that it would never have been created without copyright.

      That is flat out wrong, and provable.

      Copyright is only a couple hundred years old, yet creative works of art have been made for over 10,000 years.

      I mean, the Renaissance?

      Most of the expansion of human knowledge has come about without any form of copyright protection, and in fact is measurably slower now which some say might be due to stifling effects of copyright.
      For every 1 company that makes some new advance in technology, a thousand more are prevented from improving upon it for their lifetime.

      In an age where scientific discoveries no longer need to take multiple life times, and a person can see the results of the same work they started, it seems more than counter intuitive to artificially limit human advancement just so some large companies can continue to rape profits from those that actually created the things that make the companies rich.

      In fact, that statement is yet another example of the deep sense of entitlement that has permeated our hearts and minds over culture since piracy became popular.

      You're right. Artists and their sense of entitlement over ideas that are impossible to 'own' is destroying our country, culture, and scientific advancement. I fully agree with you here.

      Personally, I would rather live without a piece of crap art someone only made because they wanted a buck, in exchange for advancement of science that would make mine and everyone elses quality of life improve leaps and bounds.
      After all, real artists create art for the sake of creating art. Money isn't a factor, it's only nice to get for it.
      I don't do what I love for my profession either. I can't help but do the things that interest me, even for free. That's why I also work at a job, to have money to live on. Artists should remember how the rest of the world lives and come back to reality.

    20. Re:Copyright is stealing by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      I'm a bit amused... GP's post cited several examples refuting your reply. Very prescient of him.

      I suppose it would be, but I was referring works created in the time when wealthy commissioners couldn't just download any work they want from the internet.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    21. Re:Copyright is stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the most important reason why copyright really is stealing, in a very literal and real sense: it deprives me of my ability to use my own property as I wish. Once you realize this, you'll see just how Orwellian and offensive the "copying is stealing" meme is.

    22. Re:Copyright is stealing by brit74 · · Score: 1

      Let's see -- TheVelvetFlamebait said, "there is a very good chance that it would never have been created without copyright."

      Which you twist into "You assert that without copyright there is no content." and then accuse him of "the old 'Big Lie' method of propaganda". Geez. The fact that you can't argue against him without twisting his words around into a strawman shows just how hollow and dishonest pirates' arguments are.

    23. Re:Copyright is stealing by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Extremes are not going to work out. Never is just as bad as instantly. A middle ground that satisfies most people involved is what we should aim at.

      How long is "long enough" and "not too long"? If money is your goal, your exclusive time should be long enough to recover your investment. What's the difference between movie, code, book and music there? The strongest selling period is shortly after its release, with dropping sales over time. When the sales stop being profitable, you'll usually see the item go out of print. Take this as a starting point. And while it's more likely to sell a copy of the first Harry Potter today than a copy of System Shock II, simply because books age better than computer games, you won't see either in the top 50 selling items of Amazon.

      It's also not whether I may copy a game, book or movie one day. What matters is whether the idea behind it, the "raw material" may be used by someone else. For example, I must not write a Harry Potter book and sell it. I'd get my ass sued off months before that thing even goes into print. I don't even want to imagine how many really good HP books would have existed if people could use the IP and write their own stories in that universe. Of course, you'd also get a truckload of really bad books, but peer review would weed them out. Much like you have today already with other media where it's done exactly that way.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    24. Re:Copyright is stealing by brit74 · · Score: 1

      You tried to claim that lack of copyright would kill production dead,

      No, he didn't. You wish he did because that would give you something easier to argue against. The fact of the matter is that copyright-defenders argue that eliminating copyright would have a big effect on significantly reducing digital creation. Pointing out the existence of music before copyright or Linux doesn't get you anywhere under that argument.

      Here's one of your strawman arguments:

      "Also, music came into existence with copyright. Prior to the 18th century music was a concept unknown to the human race. The 10,000 year old wind instrument recently dug up was clearly as fraudulent as all the dinosaur skulls that ruin nice peoples bedtime stories."

      So, if eliminating copyright eliminates 95% (instead of 100%) of all digital content creation, apparently, you think you've won the argument - that copyright should be eliminated. Right. How about this: let's stop paying doctors. SOME doctors would continue to keep working as volunteers and 95% of them would quit. Imagine how much money all of us could save by not paying doctors. Ah ha! I've just proven that "not paying doctors" is a better healthcare system than paying them because I showed that less than 100% of doctors would quit - healthcare would still exist, and we wouldn't have to pay for it!

      Just because people in the past struggled-along with a particular system doesn't mean we should go back to it; it doesn't mean it was a good system. Pre-modern people struggled along without modern medicine, relying on sham treatments for "healthcare". They were largely illiterate, denied rights to women, and held slaves. The fact that people in history lived under those bad conditions doesn't prove anything about how we should live today, or what systems best serve society.

      To use you're quote: it must be nice to live in a complete fantasy world where you can throw around non-sequiturs to justify your bad economic system where you get everything for free.

  17. You wouldn't steal a car... by tygerstripes · · Score: 1

    The aggressive anti-piracy clip on pretty much every DVD release in the UK really, really pisses me off. It horribly misinforms and outright lies to the public in an effort to FUD us into compliance. For those who don't know it, it goes something like this:

    *Cue jarring, aggressive music, quick & jerky camera cuts*

    You wouldn't steal a car.

    You wouldn't steal a handbag.

    You wouldn't steal this movie.

    Piracy. Is. Theft.

    Theft. Is. A Crime.

    Quite apart from the conflation of downloading a film with stealing someone's car, the statement that "PIRACY IS THEFT" is down-right false!. Even if we accept the use of the confused term "piracy", the fact is that Theft is a clearly defined criminal act, and copyright-infringement is an entirely separately defined act. I couldn't even tell you for sure if infringing copyright is a criminal act in the UK (could someone enlighten me please).

    They are both illegal, and covered by entirely different legislation. Lying to Joe Public to convince him otherwise is horribly immoral, and unfortunately - as the parent post says - seems to have worked. Most people in the UK would now find it difficult to understand the notion that they are not the same thing.

    --
    Meta will eat itself
    1. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by sakdoctor · · Score: 3, Funny

      You wouldn't steal a baby.
      You wouldn't kill a policeman, and steal his helmet.
      You wouldn't go to the toilet in his helmet.
      You wouldn't then send the helmet to the policeman's grieving widow.
      and THEN steal it again.

    2. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by squizzar · · Score: 4, Funny
      The IT Crowd spoofed this beautifully... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg

      If you haven't seen it watch it. I think of it every time I watch a legally purchased DVD and am forced to sit through their propaganda and smile.

    3. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by tygerstripes · · Score: 1

      I think every /.er needs to watch all three series, tbh :-)

      Incidentally, when the scary PIRACY message comes up in the cinema, I get a little thrill from going "Yaaarrrr!" in my best piratey voice. Doing so before Pirates Of The Caribbean got an especially good reaction.

      --
      Meta will eat itself
    4. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by Kuroji · · Score: 4, Insightful

      [Hitler's] primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it. /Godwin.

      It's the Big Lie technique, through and through. Do you really expect otherwise from these mooks?

    5. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by pjt33 · · Score: 1

      I use xine and skip the FBI warnings. I don't think the FBI have much jurisdiction in Europe anyway.

    6. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beat me to it.

      IT Crowd FTW

    7. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you'd be surprised :O

    8. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by Fjodor42 · · Score: 1

      Remember Jon Lech Johansen's arrest, or the 2006 razzia against TPB?

      No, they don't (yet) have any jurisdiction, but they don't seem to know or care, and nobody seems to stop them either...

      --
      "The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
    9. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by earthloop · · Score: 1
    10. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hitler lost.

    11. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by damburger · · Score: 1

      They have eased off a bit. Now the adverts in cinemas run on the idea that the cinema 'experience' can't be replicated by pirated content. This has the advantage of being true, not appearing absurdly exaggerated, and not accusing the industry's own customers of being common criminals.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    12. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by tygerstripes · · Score: 1

      True, that one's not so offensive, although I hasten to point out that "having the view blocked by the one person that absolutely couldn't wait to go to the toilet" is something I'm more likely to experience in the cinema than sitting at home watching a pirated DVD.

      Just sayin'.

      --
      Meta will eat itself
    13. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by svtdragon · · Score: 1

      Hitler lost.

      Yes, but he lost the war. He won the elections.

    14. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most insightful comment I've seen on slashdot.

    15. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by pwizard2 · · Score: 1

      Now the adverts in cinemas run on the idea that the cinema 'experience' can't be replicated by pirated content.

      Yep, that's right. You sure can't get the nasty seats with skid marks on them, sticky floors, blurry picture, and overpriced food except with an authentic cinema experience.

      --
      "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
    16. Re:You wouldn't steal a car... by syousef · · Score: 1

      Worked well for Hitler, too. One fumble after the next (He did some idiotic things fortunately or we might be having this discussion in German), Germany in ruins and him and his loved ones left feeling the need to commit suicide.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  18. uh oh by GarretSidzaka · · Score: 2, Interesting

    whatever happens in Airstrip One will probably follow here in Oceania

  19. Minister for Digital Entertainment? by dangitman · · Score: 0

    You Brits have a minister devoted to digital entertainment? Is finger-fucking covered by his portfolio?

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:Minister for Digital Entertainment? by fridaynightsmoke · · Score: 1

      You Brits have a minister devoted to digital entertainment? Is finger-fucking covered by his portfolio?

      He's the man to call if you get hiccups... http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn10207-ig-nobel-prizes-hail-digital-rectal-massage.html
      Although as a member of the current administration he'd go for putting the whole fist in, without lube.

      --
      This is a substitute for a clever sig that fits within the maximum number of characters.
    2. Re:Minister for Digital Entertainment? by jabithew · · Score: 1

      Not with this particular minister, no.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
  20. Britian the land of the ... err free? by dreamer_uk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So we have more camera surveillance than anywhere else.
    We have more regulations than most places. And now we are going to help out the big money companies by criminalizing use of the internet.
    Why are we helping a business model that doesn't work and is being flogged to death. UK industry used to be innovative and groundbreaking. Now instead of encouraging evolution of business, we are actively saying we will help you keep your outdated methods and kick the people who innovate.
    We should be telling the record/movie industry to move with the times and only help when they have proven they have made changes that are compatible with the customers of the day.
    Yes I know about iTunes and other services. but the pricing models applied to them are often the same (or worse) than physical media. And with all the DRM pain when the industry failed again to move forward, these methods have a bad name.
    Things are changing and people *are* still buying music and movies. the losses the industry report assume that the downloaded tracks would have been bought (which is rarely the case) only a small preparation of downloaded music would have ever been bought. the rest would have been borrowed (taped/copied) from physical media as has been going on for many years. I don't ever remember a lawsuit over the sale of a dual tape deck that could copy between two tapes.
    More interestingly, downloaded music can lead to more sales as bands that are not mainstream are discovered and shared.
    I don't condone illegal music downloads. I do condone the use of laws to fund outdated industries that have big enough pockets to buy politicians.

    1. Re:Britian the land of the ... err free? by dwandy · · Score: 1

      So we have more camera surveillance than anywhere else.

      if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear.
      --Standard Overlord Answer book, revision 1, chapter 1, page 1, paragraph 1.

      Why are we helping a business model that doesn't work and is being flogged to death.

      the model worked for decades: it's the damn pirates that broke it.
      --Standard Overlord Answer book, revision 13, chapter 12.

      UK industry used to be innovative and groundbreaking. Now instead of encouraging evolution of business, we are actively saying we will help you keep your outdated methods and kick the people who innovate.

      Innovation is hard work. It really is. You have to keep doing it (like a job!) to keep getting paid.
      It's much easier to spend some profits from a previous quarter to legislate future profit guarantees.
      This isn't new (like extending copyright which serves no purpose other than to enrich the current copyright owners), it's just either more widespread, or easier for the average /.er to notice thanks to the pervasive flow of information... or maybe both. In economic terms it is said that "that which you reward, you encourage".

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    2. Re:Britian the land of the ... err free? by DeeVeeAnt · · Score: 1
      While I agree pretty much with what you say here, I think you might want to check on the meaning of the word "condone". I expect it's the opposite of what you imagine.

      condone

      1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like). 2. to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior. 3. to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse. 4. to cause the condonation of. 5. Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of (a violation of the marriage vow).

      --
      Home fucking is killing prostitution.
  21. Criminalize Leaks of private information by Govt. by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    Get a law passed that criminalizes The leakage of private information by Govt or its supreme "Yes, Minister" servants.
    That way, the next time some MP or minister or a civil servant loses a hard disk containing private information, he/she faces hard time in a Federal Prison: for 10 years or more.
    Why doesn't someone get the stupid ministers to pass a law like this?

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  22. One in 12 of the population might disagree. by 91degrees · · Score: 3, Informative

    According to the article, this is "a practice engaged in by one in 12 of the population".

    If that large a portion of the population think that something should not be illegal (and it's reasonable to assume that most people consider behaviour they indulge in should not be illegal), then perhaps their views should be considered rather than having them declared criminals. Perhaps though, Labour really wants to lose the next election. At least they consider losing 8.3% of the vote acceptable losses.

    1. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      According to the article, this is "a practice engaged in by one in 12 of the population".

      If that large a portion of the population think that something should not be illegal (and it's reasonable to assume that most people consider behaviour they indulge in should not be illegal), then perhaps their views should be considered rather than having them declared criminals.

      Or perhaps they just think they're unduly entitled to free stuff because they don't want to pay for it ;) Just because people drive along roads at reckless speeds doesn't mean that we should bump the speed limits up, and just because lots of people want stuff for free doesn't mean that everything needs to be made available for free.

      As for the general idea, I seem to have had the misunderstanding that doing something illegal was already criminal. In a less strict sense it is (if it isn't legal then you're not a law-abiding citizen, and if you're not a law-abiding citizen then the other class is generally "criminals"), but strictly there is apparently law that isn't criminal law. At the end of the day you're still breaking a law and getting something for nothing that you shouldn't do (not stealing - that's a corporate misdirection/lie) so it is only reasonable to charge people for it. They need to make sure that what they're charging people over a) isn't allowed to be shared (i.e. don't just go "he was using BitTorrent", since it could be a Linux distro), b) is actually something they did and c) is reasonably in proportion to the crime (i.e. not multiples of a thousand over the actual cost for sharing to three people). Unfortunately I don't think they're too accurate on any of those counts in general.

    2. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by lattyware · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You seem to have forgotten that the government is meant to be there to implement what the people want. If everyone in the country wants the speed limits increased, then in theory, they should be able to vote for someone who says they will do that. The equivalent for this is the Pirate Party. The government are not meant to control us, we are meant to control the government.

      --
      -- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)
    3. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People should not be afraid of their governments; governments should be afraid of their people.

    4. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by barndoor101 · · Score: 1

      According to the article, this is "a practice engaged in by one in 12 of the population". If that large a portion of the population think that something should not be illegal (and it's reasonable to assume that most people consider behaviour they indulge in should not be illegal), then perhaps their views should be considered rather than having them declared criminals. Perhaps though, Labour really wants to lose the next election. At least they consider losing 8.3% of the vote acceptable losses.

      You assume they have 8.3% of the vote anyway...

    5. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by chrb · · Score: 1

      What do you think this is, some kind of democracy?

      In the UK 49% of the population over the age of 19 believe that cannabis should be legal. When the politicians can ignore the will of 49% of the voting population, why should they care about a mere 8.3%?

    6. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      8.3% of the 60m UK populace is 4.98m people.
       
      The gap between Labour and Lib Dem in 2005 was 3.58m people.
       
      4.98m people would put Lib Dem out of the top 3, as I feel a lot of those who disagree with draconian laws like this vote liberal anyway.
       
      I just joined the Pirate Party UK.

    7. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by damburger · · Score: 1

      Most people simply ignore the motorway speed limit TBH. Its common to be bombing along at 90mph, alongside many other cars doing the same. This, to me, is enough reason for the law to be changed; problem is the government NEVER gets less intrusive. Nothing ever becomes legal, but more things become illegal. Parliament is a ratchet for authoritarianism.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    8. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by damburger · · Score: 1

      If they were to get 6% of the vote, they could lose that, and then have the other 2.3% made up by spoilt ballots saying "If fucking new labour get in again I will firebomb westminster". Would that count?

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    9. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by damburger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Its worth adding to that the fact that although 49% is not a majority is it a bigger proportion of the population, and of the voting population, than has carried a party to victory in any general election I can recall.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    10. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      No they shouldn't. Governments should act out of loyalty, not fear.

    11. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by cliffski · · Score: 1

      the majority of people in the UK are concerned about the economy, the environment, antisocial behaviour, crime and international issues such as the war in Afghanistan, which has now claimed 200 lives.
      Defending the right of teenagers to help themselves to free music is not, nor should it be, the prime factor that motivates any sane individual to make their one democratic choice every five years.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    12. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by lattyware · · Score: 1

      Guess what, the pirate party isn't just about that. They also support freedom of speech and the lowering of the police state laws coming around. I think that's actually a worthy cause, personally. And if that is what people want to vote about, guess what, that's what democracy is. You might not think it's the most important issue, but if others do, they get to make that choice.

      --
      -- Lattyware (www.lattyware.co.uk)
    13. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by cliffski · · Score: 1

      The libdems support freedom of speech and controls over the police. They don't support "give us TEH FREEEEE music!!!" like the pirate party does.
      I wonder who has more members?

      The pirate party is for kids who have yet to have a real job and learn the value of work. Anyone older than 15 who supports them is going through severe moral and mental gymnastics to justify their bit-torrent queue.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    14. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by crimperman · · Score: 1

      > In the UK 49% of the population over the age of 19 believe that cannabis should be legal. When the politicians can ignore the will of 49% of the voting population, why should they care about a mere 8.3%?

      That sounds good but that is an 8 year old survey and was made across a sample of just 1000 people. Neither could be considered significantly representative of the populace today. Opinion polls are always a bad way to judge public opinion because they will always be based on results from a) those who were prepared to answer and b) surrounding questions and debate. I recall an excellent routine on polls from yes Prime Minister in which Bernard is led to answer the same question in two opposing ways by Sir Humphrey.

      That said, I will agree that the government only pays attention to the opinion polls that support them but it has always been thus. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any governmental system which accurately pays attention to what is loosely termed public "opinion". Especially as the latter is so often coerced by the media and indeed the government themselves. There are several instances where the government has been right to ignore "popular opinion" and several where it has been wrong. That's the nature of government.

    15. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      I'm one of the people that would become a criminal from illegal downloading, this matter would affect me a heck of a lot more than the economy, the environment, antisocial behaviour, crime and the war in Afghanistan. I think the rational option is to vote for the party that isn't going to fine me £50000.

    16. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by cliffski · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should try actually paying for stuff you want?
      just an idea.
      Don't expect everyone else in society to be happy to subsidise your lifestyle. What makes you think you are entitled to stuff for free that honest people are paying for?

      Tragic.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    17. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Perhaps. But it makes more sense to vote against the party that stops me getting stuff for free than to change how I get my music. I try to choose who I vote for on rational decisions rather than moral decision, and even if morality does come into it I'll vote on my morality rather than yours.

    18. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by vivaelamor · · Score: 2, Funny

      The pirate party is for kids who have yet to have a real job and learn the value of work.

      Ah yes, real job. Like making computer games for a living. Ha Ha Ha my side just split.

    19. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by vivaelamor · · Score: 1

      Plus, if you're not being as narrow minded as the GP you will realise that any success by the pirate party has is a big boost for the Lib Dems as the closest party with a full manifesto. The publicity generated by the Pirate Party is far more than the Lib Dems can hope to achieve themselves these days.

    20. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      But honestly, whether I have a sense of morality or not is beside the point. Let's take it as read that I don't. That I will act purely rationally in my own self interest. Let's also assume that those who like to get their music for free also have no morality. That means that 8.3% of the population will be inclined to vote rationally in their own self interest. That's typically enough to swing an election.

      I'm talking game theory here. My actual views on the morality of downloading are a lot more complex but completely beside the point.

    21. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by cliffski · · Score: 0, Troll

      just as long as we have established what a morally empty sand selfish person you are for freeloading off everyone else, thats fine.
      I'm sure you would expect everyone else to really give a shit they day you get fined by the RIAA though...

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    22. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Okay... I spend a pretty decent amount on media. I buy mp3s from Amazon, I buy DVDs and I read a lot of books. And yes, I download a fair bit as well - an action that causes balance sheet losses of zero. Perhaps I'd download less if all this stuff was conveniently available in this country.

      The media cartels charges artists losses for breakages on mp3s, making music into "works for hire" so they get to hang on to copyright, lobbying for longer copyright terms for music that has already been released, and completely lie about the profitability of films to avoid paying royalties to the copyright holders.

      If they were living, thinking beings that actually had feelings perhaps I'd care but they're not. They're machines designed for maximising revenue. I'm fine with that but I'm going to be minimising my costs thanks. That involves promoting legislation that allows me to do so. They set the rules. I'll play by those rules.

    23. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      You seem to have forgotten that the government is meant to be there to implement what the people want.

      I think you got that wrong. I can't remember the Terry Pratchett quote, but he has a very fitting one about the matter. A government is not there to do what the people want, but what the people need (which are not always the same thing). While a person may be intelligent, "people are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it" (to quote Men In Black).

      What people want isn't always best for society (more speeding = more accidents and more deaths on the roads, free copyright infringement = no need to purchase music/film = no incentive to produce it). A government that bows to every whim of a rabble-roused populace is bound to ruin a country.

      People want to speed because they're either ignorant or specifically ignoring the risks. Britain has too many junctions on the motorways that are too close together to handle people doing 90Mph, but people think "I can handle it and my car can handle it, so I'll ignore the fact that it hugely increases the likelihood of an accident by hugely increasing my reaction distance just so that I can get there sooner" because they don't think it'll happen to them. It's dumb and short-sighted, but until it happens to them then it is human nature for some people to think that way.

    24. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      Really? The LibDems do? They've not made a good message of it!

      I've always thought the LibDems were most reasonable because of their focus on supporting students and generally being sensible with policies, but they've not enough of their policies to make me bother voting (why vote in a party if they're all going to make the same cock-ups? then you're just responsible for it). The Pirate Party is too extreme in some areas (like the "Teh free muzicz") but they are more obviously against some of the other sensible issues (copyright overly in favour of the corporation, excessive use of the police state, etc).

    25. Re:One in 12 of the population might disagree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that argument worked even in the slightest we wouldn't have any drug prohibition laws at all...

      What you've got to remember is that democracy isn't about the will of the people all the time - we get a choice once every 4 years, after that our opinion doesn't mean shit.

  23. !constitional ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How is this not constitutional when the country in question has no constitution? Stupid tags

    1. Re:!constitional ? by jabithew · · Score: 2, Informative

      We do have a constitution. Parliament is the supreme power in the nation though, so effectively the constitution can be changed with a simple majority vote in the Commons.

      It probably isn't unconstitutional, because if Parliament passes a law to sanction it (which it probably will in our elected dictatorship) then it becomes part of the constitution.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    2. Re:!constitional ? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      We do have a constitution. Parliament is the supreme power in the nation though, so effectively the constitution can be changed with a simple majority vote in the Commons.

      How well does that system work at protecting your right against self-incrimination, right to remain silent or right to keep and bear arms?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:!constitional ? by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 1

      How well does that system work at protecting your right against self-incrimination, right to remain silent or right to keep and bear arms?
      I don't know if you're be facetious, but there is no right to keep and bear arms. Except maybe for a few lords and knights, the crown hasn't wanted an armed populace for a while.

      PS Captcha jaundice! Has slashcode absorbed the evil AI from nethack?

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    4. Re:!constitional ? by jabithew · · Score: 1

      The short answer is that it doesn't. Parliament can overturn those rights, as it already has done with the right to bear arms (though that is not as universal as the other two).

      The long answer is that the European Union will defend those rights, and the Lords have a habit of knocking sense into the Commons before it gets that far. One of the greatest ironies is that the (unelected) Lords have done more to defend our liberties than the (elected) Commons.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    5. Re:!constitional ? by jabithew · · Score: 1

      Your Government doesn't regard your rights as inviolable.

      For all that your post has been modded troll, this statement is correct.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    6. Re:!constitional ? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      I probably should have said "Government doesn't regard your rights as inviolable", because it's hardly unique to the UK......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  24. So many things wrong about the UK... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Very good, guess it's time to get a high quality vpn service - I've been hearing that they are extremely secure. As a european who has been living in the UK for several years, I have many things to say about this country, but I don't want offend the british people around here.

    Actually, I'll press on. There are four things that piss me off about this idiotic and hog-headed country.

    1) The british disdain for a bidet. It is so time consuming, and so unhygienic to use the god damn shower. It's disgusting to think that a tub could actually be used as a tub without a bidet. But I am pretty sure that many british people will not actually care - I need not say much more about how ugly, dirty, and smelly this country can get, at times.

    2) The majority of bathrooms in british households have a seperate tap for hot and cold water. That means that when one wants to wash his or her hands, those hands will either freeze or burn. During summer it's not so bad, given that the cold water will be mildly cold.. But it becomes incredibly annoying during winter, when the cold water approaches zero degrees celsius, and where the alternative is getting one's hands burned. So stupid...

    3) The hordes of incompetent, ill-fitted, ignorant, and chav-like 18-20 year olds producing armies of babies, all because the idiotic government subsidizes and encourages them to create babies as if they were toilet-produced waste and not actual human beings. I feel very sorry for those babies, the vast majority of them will lead a very unhappy life.

    4) The stupid social service system. So inefficient, so ineffective. Not only does it subsidize incompetence, but it also encourages abuse.

    About the pirate party. I am definitely going to support them. 18 months for copyright seems quite good to me. Let art be art - people who produce works of art are only interested in making as many people as possible appreciate them, and putting money gathering as the forefront objective can only lead to unhappiness.

    1. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      @1: this seems to be typical of most of northern Europe,as far as I can tell from Wikipedia (yes, that most reliable of sources).

      @2: this comes from the idea that you would fill up the basin first, then use the water in the basin, a practice which originates in using a jug and washstand. I think this is considered by some to e the "proper" or more "classy" way to do it, and so they buy this sort of basin to make it look like that is what they do.

      @3,4: yes I don't like this either, but there are a lot of votes from these people, and there isn't a party with the balls to cut off thier income, unless they could get away with disenfranchising them (but there is still the risk that someone will re-enfranchise them and keep their votes for decades, so that isn't an option either). It's hardly a UK-only problem, more's the pity.

    2. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Troll much?

      First, you have some serious issues about cleanliness if "just a bath" or "just a shower" is insufficient for you. If you think that you somehow magically gain "hygiene" by washing your bum or nadgers in a seperate appliance, then feel free. But the world has done without bidets for much of its life, and for the majority of its citizens in first-world countries. If you think it makes a difference to your overall cleanliness, I believe you're mistaken. I think you just have a complex about certain parts of your body being "dirty". What would you do on a hiking trip where you're lucky to get water that's sanitary?

      Hot tap. Cold tap. Marked appropriately, because one is heated, the other unheated. The world seems to have grasped and adopted this principle with ease. Either... SHOCK, HORROR, run them both to create warm water (WOW!), buy a mixer tap (which does the same thing but "easier" for the dumb-of-hand) or install a temperature-controlled water system to your house (something which I've never seen installed anywhere because, you know, people cope quite easily with this). I've never found anyone else who's ever had a problem with this. And if your hot water is THAT hot, you must have a very old boiler that isn't temperature controlled seperately from the heating, or you're pissing away energy all the time for water that's too hot for you anyway. Or maybe that's a hygiene thing again, that you think that "hot water is better" somehow (not really, not in those temperature ranges)?

      Number 3, I have to agree with, though. And number 4 to an extent, but being subject to abuse doesn't mean it fails to serve those in need too. It does an amazingly good job at that, I feel... in fact... TOO good.

      Despite those problems, I agree with your sentiments on copyright. And it's hard to offend a British person. We just denigrate you for being different and then ignore you, mostly.

    3. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How the hell can anyone from Europe claim the UK is dirty? You pigfuckers crap in holes in the ground and eat horses.

    4. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      And it's hard to offend a British person. We just denigrate you for being different and then ignore you, mostly.

      And people wonder where us Americans get it from ;) Yet another thing we can thank the mother country for :)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    5. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is so time consuming, and so unhygienic to use the god damn shower.

      What the hell is it that you are trying to do that requires so much time using a shower? If you are referring to cleaning your anus, pressure from all but the weakest shower should do a much better job than the quaint b-day those pungent smelling French divined around the time of their quasi fetishistic obsession with enemas they inflicted on healthy human bodies to follow the fashion of their kings.

      It's disgusting to think that a tub could actually be used as a tub without a bidet.

      if you were to bathe daily like an Englishman, and not monthly like a Frenchman, you would not have such filthy balls, and it would not be a problem to wash them in a tub. Unless you have an autoimmune disease or a religious fear of your naughty private parts, you really do not need to panic about them being any more dangerous to clean than the rest of your hairy European body.

      The majority of bathrooms in british households have a seperate tap for hot and cold water.

      I know you Europeans like others to organise things for you, but have you considered that the purpose of the sink is to give you a bowl of water in which you can do your business? For rinsing clean, you have the option of fashioning a cup with your hands in which to mix the water if you are truly so troubled by the mild temperatures in this country. I have places in the northern isles of Scotland and on the south coast, on private and mains water supplies, and somehow I've never managed to suffer frost bites or scalding. For my troubles, I now have a cold tap which I don't need to wait to get cold nor which tastes slightly of water tank, and vice versa.

      The hordes of incompetent, ill-fitted, ignorant, and chav-like 18-20 year olds producing armies of babies

      Perhaps if you spent more time being productive and less time either whining or reading The Daily Hate, you would find that this is a fairly unusual, undesirable way for people to live, and that, by and large, those who are unemployed are not incompetent, but are trying hard to find work and did not expect such an inefficient destruction of industry and mismanagement of finance by pretty much every western and former Soviet nation. Maybe it is that your own incompetence has led you to living in an area where people are truly as you describe?

      The stupid social service system. So inefficient, so ineffective. Not only does it subsidize incompetence, but it also encourages abuse.

      Are we referring to the corporate welfare that is public-private partnership, or the civil service itself?

    6. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Thank you for that; I almost bit the troll myself but you did it for me. I've been trying to not feed the trolls for a long time now, but sometimes it's hard, especially with a well crafted troll such as the one you bit.

      As to number four, eighteen months is as rediculously short as the current seemingly infinite copyright terms are rediculously long. I'd push for a twenty year term, I could accept thirty. But a year and a half for copyright seems absurd to me. For a printed book I don't see how a publisher could recoup his costs in such a short time for anything but best sellers. It was over ten years before Isaac Asimov ever saw any money from his Foundation series; Gnome Press had to sell the license they had from Asimov to Doubleday before Asimov ever saw a penny.

    7. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >if you were to bathe daily like an Englishman, and not monthly like a Frenchman, you would not have such filthy balls /thread

    8. Re:So many things wrong about the UK... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      It's disgusting to think that a tub could actually be used as a tub without a bidet.

      'Baths is unhygienic,' Granny declared. 'You know I've never agreed with baths. Sittin' around in your own dirt like that.'

      'What do you do, then?' said Magrat.

      'I just washes,' said Granny. 'All the bits. You know. As and when they becomes available.'

      --Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  25. What is an illegal download? by seanalltogether · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How can they possibly write this law in a way that will clearly delineate what a legal download is from an illegal download? Is it the responsibility of the consumer to know whether or not the distributor has acquired the legal rights to allow you to download a file in the first place. Does paying for something automatically indemnify you from charges of illegal downloading if you're not sure of the legality? If netflix offers a promotion to allow me to watch 3 movies for free without signing up for their service, is that legal? What about a site that streams the movie to me, inserts commercials, but doesn't have a license with the movie studios. Am I charged for illegal downloading or are they charged with illegal distribution, or both? What exactly is an illegal download when the distributor (even a pirate distributor) is willfully giving you content without charging for it?

    1. Re:What is an illegal download? by JustinOpinion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a very good point. And it's not just academic.

      I think most courts would contend that any reasonable person would know that the files being offered through links on Pirate Bay are not sanctioned. Conversely any reasonable person would agree that files being offered for purchase through iTunes are sanctioned. But there is a wide middle-ground. YouTube now has so many officially-sponsored channels and deals that it's hard to know, when you watch something, whether it was posted officially or not. In fact there are even a few cases of takedown notices being sent against legitimate postings (the legal branch of some consortium sends a notice to a band's official YouTube channel, for instance). If you search for various TV shows, you'll find a range of sites offering to stream them for "free" (with ads), ranging from Hulu to sites in foreign languages I can't read. How is the consumer supposed to know which ones have licenses and which ones don't? And then there are sites like allofmp3, which are also ambiguous.

      It seems really dangerous to criminalize a behavior when it can be so difficult (impossible, really) to know whether or not you're in strict violation of the law. Which is why it makes much more sense to focus on unlicensed distributors, and not on downloaders.

    2. Re:What is an illegal download? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a good point. I work at a radio station. Frequently I torrent instrumental tracks that were only available on the hardcopy single CD and that I simply can't get from anywhere else. I do however have the rights to use this music and the copyright holders will receive a royalty payment when it's broadcast.

      I haven't bought a physical CD... but still. I'm not convinced that my use is illegal.

      Distribution is another matter. I suppose.

    3. Re:What is an illegal download? by kramerd · · Score: 1

      That depends on contract law.

      If you purchase something from a merchant in the ordinary course of business, and you are a consumer, you take title above anyone else. If you buy a movie or a cd from Blockbuster's used section, you have nothing to worry about. If you buy it from some guy in a trench coat on the subway, it may not be reasonable to assume that he is a merchant, or that the property is legal. If you buy it from an indian grocery store, YMMV.
      Your netflix example is something completely different, because you are licensing, not purchasing. You are paying for the use of a service, but if netflix does not have the right to distribute that service and you use it reasonably without such knowledge, you have not committed a crime. Netflix would have committed infringement, and be subject to civil penalties.

      IANAL, but downloading is not something you should worry about. Uploading is. If you download something, there is no basis that you would have otherwise purchased access to the material, therefore no actual damages could ever be proven. Uploading, on the other hand, is copyright infringement. You are distributing without a license to distribute, which, according to every movie made for home use, carries a monetary and criminal penalty for each instance.

      Here is the fun part: If you have a reasonable belief that the person/s you download from have the right to distribute material, and they do not charge for it, you are in the clear. The reasonable person statute does not refer to /.ers, but rather to people who download things. Whether or not that download is free, or whether or not it has commercials, is irrelevant. If it is obvious that they do not have the right to do so, you can be held liable for the infringement (the same way that if you buy a car without a title, you might assume it was stolen, and the original owner can claim it back by proving title, but if you buy a car from a used car lot, the seller has merchantability, and thus warranty of title is implicit, so the original owner can only sue the used car lot owner, and you keep legal title).

    4. Re:What is an illegal download? by poofmeisterp · · Score: 1

      It seems really dangerous to criminalize a behavior when it can be so difficult (impossible, really) to know whether or not you're in strict violation of the law. Which is why it makes much more sense to focus on unlicensed distributors, and not on downloaders.

      Mhmm. Agree. Also, after it's publicly known that things regarding this situation are being considered, other companies/people/etc will come up with new ideas that test ways around it -or- come up with a new entity or product that is very interesting and highly confuses the points being considered. The result making it one of those things that is discussed using nice, mean, threatening, legal, or other "winner" pathways without cessation.

      IMHO.

  26. Re:Criminalize Leaks of private information by Gov by stupid_is · · Score: 1

    First we'd need them to invent Federal prisons in a UK context - but I like the way you're thinking. Maybe instead just use Broadmoor, Parkhurst or Strangeways

    --
    -- Intelligence is soluble in alcohol
  27. Proposed rules by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    1) Anyone is allowed to share any infinitely-reproducible item which they are able to reproduce, for any price.
    2) After any such distribution, the copyright holder has a length of time equal to the term of their copyright to request a share of the gross price charged.
    3) Everyone making a claim gets an equal portion of the gross price. If three people make a claim, the gross price will be divided evenly four ways (one part to each making a claim, and one part to the distributor), etc. If someone makes a claim later, they will receive their share from all people involved. (equivalent to everyone putting what they've received from the item into a pot and re-dividing it equally)
    4) No one has any inherent right to control the destiny of copies of their created works. You cannot deny anyone the right to distribute a copy of something.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    1. Re:Proposed rules by Philip_the_physicist · · Score: 1

      @3: what about those who've spent thier share of teh money and can't afford to come up with it later. This could be problematical, if someone asks for thier money years after everyone else has forgotten about it

    2. Re:Proposed rules by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      that would make the system self-enforcing among larger companies: people go out of their way to make sure that copyright holders are contacted as soon as possible, to either request their share or sign it away.

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  28. Re:Criminalize Leaks of private information by Gov by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    How about the London Tower? unheated in winter and with the Ghost of Anne running around, it may just be wonderful for those chaps. Isn't it?

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  29. Re:Criminalize Leaks of private information by Gov by jimicus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Get a law passed that criminalizes The leakage of private information by Govt or its supreme "Yes, Minister" servants.
    That way, the next time some MP or minister or a civil servant loses a hard disk containing private information, he/she faces hard time in a Federal Prison: for 10 years or more.
    Why doesn't someone get the stupid ministers to pass a law like this?

    There already is such a law - the Data Protection Act forces organisations to keep data secure and a major mortgage company were fined for losing a laptop which had a whole lot of personal information on it. (They later announced that they'd pass this fine on to customers because they "didn't think it was fair" to pass it onto the executives, and nobody raised a stink. Go figure.)

    There is the minor issue that AFAICT the only thing they can do is fine an organisation - and of course there's only one place government can get money from to pay such a fine...

  30. next gen p2p by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    maybe GNUNET now? i'm not a developer, so there might be problems, but I think the gist is that it's completely decentralized and encrypted.

  31. An artist's view. by gintoki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I read this a while ago and also found it on wikipedia. It was said by Jean-Paul Gaster who happens to be the drummer for the band Clutch. "As a musician, I think it is irrelevant to me. It exists and it is out there and no matter what I try and do about it, it will always be there. I don't mind kids trading tapes, that's totally cool. Videos are cool too. They only add to the live show. A kid might show that to some of their friends and they might think that we are cool and might come out and see us next time. The reality is that an artist has to have a record go gold, before they are even going to see a dime. Bands put out 3 or 4 records on a label and never see a dime from record sales. So, it is not like people who are downloading would be putting a dollar in my pocket if they would have bought the record. The industry is set up so that the record company will immediately get paid from record sales. So...download all you want!!! I think that the internet has changed the record industry and will continue to do so. The record labels will find some way to make money. I think that the artists main concern is to concentrate on their live performance and be the best artist that they can". I don't know how much of this actual fact but this is coming from someone who has been making music for a very long time and is in a relatively well known band. So basically this will most likely come to pass considering all the lobbying from the music and film industry. Personally it does not affect me since I don't download music or films illegally (used to a few years back) but what does concern me is the privacy issues. I don't want someone keeping track of all my internet activity because I doubt that only illegal downloaders would be monitored.

    1. Re:An artist's view. by damburger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Good for him. I sometimes suspect the dividing line between artists who say 'OMG no copyright no more music' and ones who say 'Whatever, filesharing will just bring more people out to shows' is their own perception of their ability as a live performer. The weaker ones who require a studio to make them sound tolerable are terrified of having to depend on their lackluster live performances for an income.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    2. Re:An artist's view. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, that money is a pittance without huge, media-propelled exposition, and the execs make a profit much before the artists.

  32. Definition of "illegal?" by EmagGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Isn't it redundant to "criminalize" something that is already illegal? Isn't that sort of the definition of "illegal?"

    Funny, I thought they were synonymous.

  33. huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers

    not their computer id numbers! hold me, i'm cold. so cold.

  34. Get an anonymous VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a VPN from Super Awesome so Mandelson can suck my balls :)

    http://www.superawesomebroadband.com/faq.html#vpn

  35. Wtf is up with the UK? by miffo.swe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Im pretty intrigued by all that the UK citizen that seems to put up with this. CCTV at their jobs, parks, roads and even pointing right into their very private homes. Laws demanding handing over encryption keys encriminating themselves, survalliance and secret prisons etc. For being able to monitor illegal downloads they will save ALL traffic that people sends and receives on their computers, not just movies and music but everything at all lika chat etc.

    Are people in the UK just fine with this or are the press just ignoring it? Myself i have a hard time understanding how people would just sheeply comply with their overlords and bend over without a fuss. Especially when the powers that be tends to classify more and more about themselves the more they pry into about ther underlings. Things like theese makes the KGB/Stasi etc look pretty lame and innocent.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by damburger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Its complicated. With a wide and varied population you can't identify a singular reason. Let me see if I can have a crack at enumerating a few though:

      1. Boiling frogs. There was never an Enabling Act really, more a series of measures which have slowly made us one of the least free people in Europe. Ask any of my fellow Brits, I bet none of them can definitively name a date when the government anti-freedom agenda began.

      2. Thatcherism. Old milk-snatcher mounted a long, brutal, and ultimately successful campaign to decimate the base of her political opponents. This has left any political organization that doesn't blindly follow the dictats of the City out in the wilderness with few members. Sometimes I don't think Americans appreciate how horrific it was; they just assume she was a clone of Reagan - but she was much worse.

      3. Media lockdown. The BBC doesn't have a mandate to really rip the government a new one. The papers are owned by people with heavy financial interests in the government. Murdoch has a vast media empire (several newspapers, and the very popular Sky television network) which basically dictates policy. In one instance, the Murdoch-owned Sun ran a 'campaign' to get the then home secretary David Blunkett to make some token move against immigrants, which he ultimately acceded to in an interview with the Sun. Thing is, he had his interview with the Sun to announce this very initiative already arranged before their 'campaign' started.

      4. Paranoia. Britain is a very fearful society, largely for reasons 1 and 2 above. The assumption that everyone is ruthless and out for themselves is a self-fulfilling prophecy, because believing everyone else is a greedy scheming fucker makes it easier to be one yourself.

      5. Deference. The curse of British society. We are conditioned by centuries of culture to defer to those of higher social classes. Even icons of the left such as Bertrand Russel and Tony Benn come from aristocratic stock, and their aristocratic manner helped them become iconic. The concept of 'betters' is sold to ordinary people by the tacit suggestion that, whilst they have their betters, they are in turn better than others...

      6. Scapegoating. British people don't look up for the source of problems, they look down. Its the chavs. Its the muslims. Its single mums. Aside from taking the heat away from power, it also helps sell deference by telling people that there are 'scum' out their that they are better than.

      There will be more reasons. Frankly, I think my country is doomed.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    2. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by QX-Mat · · Score: 1

      We have moved to a service economy, therefore people have to justify their jobs in government.

      We have a bloated civil service that commands too much power because they're not on top of their current workload thus submitting stupid proposals based on improper or myopic research is a career move and gives the illusion of competence.

      I've met several councillors: they tend to be idiots with some form of aspergers (one is now a registered sex offender!)... Most are more concerned with controlling the incompetent voices rather than getting work done. It's a PR nightmare when you sack someone in public office - more so when you can't say how bad they are without further revelations about the state of the office ("So how long has it been that bad?") - so we're stuck with idiots in charge. But idiots surely wouldn't hide their incompetence would they?

      The cabinet members don't have degrees or experience in their roles. There are too many cabinet changes (posts should be for the term of the cabinet, considering the first year of a politician's job is literally getting used to the backlog). If the Government killed some of the BS cabinet posts and put two ministers in charge of the really important stuff, things *might* get done.

      In my opinion the problem is career politics and disrespect for the House of Lords and the peerage system (now stopped via the constitutional reform act), because they're too slow and considered, and the last bastion of hope for those pesky civil rights.

      A good example is the no right turn sign that's recently appeared outside my flat in Nottingham, in order to make a road bus/bicycle only. There are several thousand people living here in a central city location. Go left and you hit traffic causing chaos (it's also a dangerous left). Go right, and you can ease into traffic via a route predominantly used by buses (coming from the town centre). From what I can tell, someone simply decided to add the no right sign. There was no consultation. We didn't get letters regarding the planning change. And they've added a number plate camera to catch people who continue to use it. If they expected people to continue to use the road (in order to justify the co-installation of the camera), perhaps there was a good reason *not* to make it a bus only route in the first place?

      Another example is the decision of Oxfordshire council to change *all* their derestricted roads (national speed limit 60mph) to 50mph. Why?! Because it looks good.

    3. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by russotto · · Score: 1

      1. Boiling frogs. There was never an Enabling Act really, more a series of measures which have slowly made us one of the least free people in Europe. Ask any of my fellow Brits, I bet none of them can definitively name a date when the government anti-freedom agenda began.

      January 6, 1066.

    4. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by Xest · · Score: 1

      Because it only effects like, a few hundred people in the population.

      You can almost certainly count the number of people with CCTV pointing into their houses on one hand. CCTV monitoring at work I've not heard about, but that's certainly going to full foul of laws against workplace bullying as it would clearly fall under excessive monitoring. Similarly the deal with encryption keys has effected how many people? 2, 3?

      You see, I'm not defending any of this, it's entirely unacceptable and it pisses me off no end, but I do support both the Libertarian Party UK, Liberty and now The Pirate Party, but the other 59,999,990 people in the country who aren't affected? They have no reason to care because it doesn't effect them yet.

      It will effect them, eventually. But this is what scares me most, it'll pick people off one by one, and people wont care whilst one or two people are being picked off here or there, until it hits them, but then it's too late because they're already a criminal.

      Honestly, what I'm hoping for is that they trip, that they get too gutsy, and that they push a law that really does effect millions in one fell swoop. Only then do I think people will really start to care and take action.

      I'd argue most countries are the same - Australians only stood up against the internet filtering plans for example because it was something that outright effected so many people in a single blow.

    5. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by drseuk · · Score: 1

      Typical Labour, starting to spoil things in the year we won the world cup. Personally, I blame the Germans.

    6. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't anywhere near as much CCTV as you'd be led to believe by Slashdot. Certainly not looking into private homes, and there no cameras around the streets here. Where are the secret prisons, exactly? I haven't heard of them (insert obvious joke here).

      If the USA was like what I've read on the internet, it would be some ghastly nightmare where your employer controlled your life, you'd die of an easily treatable illness because you weren't wealthy/insured, so dangerous that you need to carry weapons for your own protection, a police force who like nothing better than harassing citizens and generally throwing their weight around, media entirely controlled by and representing the interests of the super-rich and where everyone lives in fear of those around them. Stereotypes are not reality.

      That's not to say everything's just rosy here, I could reel off a large list of complaints.

    7. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by sparky81 · · Score: 1, Informative

      Ask any of my fellow Brits, I bet none of them can definitively name a date when the government anti-freedom agenda began

      I can. 3 Nov 1994. Date of royal assent to The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act.

      This was the point where we lost the right to keep our mouth shut & not have it held against us, for two or people to stand in a field (might be waiting for a rave, you see) or to walk along the street without being randomly stopped and searched by the police

    8. Re:Wtf is up with the UK? by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

      Deference. The curse of British society. We are conditioned by centuries of culture to defer to those of higher social classes.

      The big mistake came when the evidence of one's "class" began being attained through inheritance or the mere possession of wealth, rather than because one's behavior and actions earned any distinction.

      That is why I find the state of my nation - the U.S. - to be so troubling, for our right is attempting to recreate that fallacy here.

      I fear that the U.S. is becoming like Britain, and increasingly having to rely upon the equivalent of Arthurian legend to point to a time when Americans earned the deference of others.

      --
      Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  36. And how will this be done? by quarkoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Firstly, this sounds like a Daily Mail [wikipedia.org] article, but nevertheless.....

    How do the government propose than ISPs determine whether content being downloaded is pirated or not? What is the difference between your browser downloading a copyrighted image on [insert name of favourite photo library site] for viewing and downloading an MP3 file? You and I may both download [copyrightedsong.mp3] but I may have permission from the publisher and you may not. How will the ISPs determine this? What if our connections were encrypted, encoded or used IPv6?

    I could go on. And on. And on......

    The fact is that apart from monitoring visits to [downloadyourillegalaudiofilesandfilmshere.com], there's absolutely sod all that anybody can do which is even remotely effective.

    Now, on the other hand, if the government were brave enough to stand up to the music/film groups and come up with some sensible laws which benefit both the citizens and the music/film groups.... well, if that happend, I'd be living in cloud-cookoo land.

    1. Re:And how will this be done? by Xest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They do what they already do, join BitTorrent swarms, note down the IP addresses in the swarm, see which ISPs they belong to, if the ISPs are UK ISPs, contact them to get their details, or get them via court order, then they sue.

      The problem is that BitTorrent is by default weak to this type of attack - you have to connect to a public tracker for a specific piece of content.

      If you use USENET to just download off of newsgroups on foreign servers using SSL then you should be safe to all government legislation and attempts to crack down on piracy, unless they take it to the extreme of making ISPs perform man in the middle attacks on SSL connections to see what is being transferred and catch you that way, but I don't think even Labour would go that far- it would have too many side effects, such as reducing confidence in online shopping and banking at UK firms if it was known that encrypted connections were being snooped.

      Realistically I think if these laws go ahead a lot of people who don't understand the vulnerabilities of P2P systems like BitTorrent do leave them open to getting caught. Personally I do not believe an IP address connected to a tracker is an acceptable level of evidence of a crime as it's so fundamentally flawed, but unfortunately it seems people in government do believe it's acceptable. This catching of large amounts of people will go one of three ways, either it will kill off British file sharing (but leave other methods like burning CDs for mates, direct downloads, USENET etc. intact), it'll lead to a cat and mouse game where technology (such as anonymous networks built for file sharing) arise to work around the inherent vulnerabilities of bittorrent or it'll lead to public discontent and political pressure will force the government to backtrack.

      Either way, if you use P2P, it's going to be a bumpy road.

  37. First they came for the music pirates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and I did not speak up, because the stuff on Jamendo.com is better than what The Industry puts out these days anyways. Then they came for the software pirates, and I did not speak up, because I do it with Ubuntu. Then they came for the Free, and they ran up against the Second Amendment and had to go off in a corner and leave us all alone.

  38. Criminalizing an Illegal Act. by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

    So does that mean they have non-criminal acts in the UK which are also illegal? 'Course in the Queen's English they'd "criminalise" it, but y'all know what I mean.

    1. Re:Criminalizing an Illegal Act. by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Speeding is an illegal act that is a civil, not criminal, offense.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:Criminalizing an Illegal Act. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not true in the UK its a criminal offence. Speeding convictions are made though the criminal courts.

    3. Re:Criminalizing an Illegal Act. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you break a law, it's a crime.

    4. Re:Criminalizing an Illegal Act. by sparky81 · · Score: 0

      Speeding is definitely a criminal offence. Trust me, this fact is currently causing me a world of grief. It may be dealt (mainly) with by administrative rather than judicial process, but that does not change the fact it is a criminal offence.

  39. Eh? by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 1

    Reminds me of idiots trying to "ban illegal guns". If it was illegal, it would already be banned!

  40. f2f by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

    I couldn't help reading that as "fear to fear".

    --
    Squirrel!
  41. do you have enough prison space? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're planning on incarcerating 1 out of 12 people in your country, you better start building more prisons.

    1. Re:do you have enough prison space? by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      We have lotsa concrete and an iron mine that extends to the horizon when you view it. Not a problem...

  42. Privacy-preserving alternatives by CSEMike · · Score: 1

    Time to switch to OneSwarm

  43. US Pirate Party by gambino21 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For anyone who is interested, there is also a Pirate Party of the United States. It appears to be based on similar ideas as other pirate parties.

    1. Re:US Pirate Party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada has one as well apparently:

      http://www.pirateparty.ca/

      (Note - apparently they're not an official party yet)

  44. Mandelson fights back Internet pirate hordes by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    Seven million Britons face having their internet connection cut off and fines of up to GBP50,000 as Digital Britain is implemented.

    Lord Carter, the report's author, has now left the Government for consultancies unknown. Lord Mandelson, who has taken over responsibility for digital policy, has been persuaded of the need for a tougher approach after entreaties from starving music mogul David Geffen, who was introduced to him by the Rothschild family. "He warned me in 2001 that these 'MP3 players' would lead to the downfall of civilisation. I understand iPods were popular in the City just before the Great Recession, you know."

    Internet piracy is estimated by the movie and music industries to cost them around GBP1.4 squillion zillion a year, ripped untimely from their generous artist-supporting pockets.

    Critics have compared the proposals to King Canute, failing to turn back the tide. "So it's up to the Government to supply the sandbags. We have an industry to defend!"

    Ofcom, the broadcasting regulator, will require Internet providers to record users downloading illegal content. The magical copyright detector, which the music industry just knows the ISPs are being obstructive in not enabling immediately, will be used to send a massive voltage up through serious repeat offenders' Internet connections and into their chairs. Labour backbencher Tom Watson said the sanctions would attach an "unbearable burden" on an emerging technology with the power to transform society. "Sounds just fine to me," said Lord Mandelson.

    Kerry McCarthy, Labour MP for Bristol East, will be in charge of the partyâ(TM)s Internet campaigning ahead of the general election. "Voters will increasingly be searching the web to find out what we think about the issues. If we haven't cut them off."

    In other news, the Pirate Party UK, launched earlier in the week, has been increasing its size at 100 new members per hour.

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  45. The Dark Lord returns when called by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

    Lord Peter Mandelson has become deputy prime minister in the latest cabinet reshuffle, one of the highest positions held by an unelected politician in recent times. Joining him is Sir Alan Sugar, to become Lord Sugar, as enterprise secretary.

    "Elections are so passe," said Lord Mandelson, "don't you think? Look at the EU vote. They couldn't think of any proper parties to vote for, so the few who showed up and could, you know, work a pencil voted in the Nazis and those UKIP idiots.

    "Clearly, elections are an idea whose time has passed. We need to get back to a monarchy with a solid system of courtiers. Thus, only the unelected can join the cabinet and, in due course, become Prime Minister. Or Grand Vizier, as I prefer to call the role."

    Lord Mandelson reassured everyone that Gordon Brown had seen off the latest round of attackers with knives for his back and that Mr Brown was safe in his position for at least another week. "But should he take ill or otherwise be unavoidably detained, in a dungeon or tower or similar, you will be comforted to know that strictly temporary succession plans are firmly in place and he has a deputy ready to do the job pro tempore. Just in case it should prove unfortunately necessary. The moves to allow life peers to relinquish their peerage and, say, re-enter Parliament via a safe seat, are entirely coincidental, though we may sadly have to employ them, say, next year. Purely hypothetically."

    Lord Mandelson also reassured everyone that Lord Sugar was not merely waiting for the right moment to break the news to Mr Brown. "Or the cameras."

    --
    http://rocknerd.co.uk
  46. Thank God I emigrated to France by drseuk · · Score: 1

    The land of Liberty, Equality and File-sharing ... oh, hang on a second.

  47. Re:Criminalize Leaks of private information by Gov by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    the Data Protection Act forces organisations to keep data secure

    Sadly, it appears that you are mistaken.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  48. Corporations do more harm than pirates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Morrissey tells netdepressives to boycott his re-releases, because he isn't seeing a single penny from back catalogue sales

  49. Its About Time by rally2xs · · Score: 0, Troll

    Hey, if you didn't work for it, and there's nobody gifting it to you, then you don't deserve it. End of story. Obtaining it without the owner's permission is theft, plain and simple. This'll get rated "troll", but I don't care, it's exactly the way I feel. I've never downloaded a single song or anything that wasn't offered for free without paying for it. I just believe when people spend months or years working in a studio and practically every waking minute to get this sound just right, or that lyric just right, so that it entertains us and gives us another "timetag of our lives" that marks an era or a generation, they deserve to be well compensated for it. That happens by BUYING the song. Its capitalism, get used to it or move to Cuba or N. Korea.

  50. Troll? Really? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

    Mods, please look up the definition of the word Troll before modding me so.

    No matter how uncomfortable my arguments may make you feel, they are not designed to gain a reaction.

    --
    You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
  51. Copyright is Stealing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    And I'm not being Orwellian at all. It's plain fact. Copyright gives other people power to dictate how I may or may not use my own private property. If I buy a book written by Orwell, the estate of Orwell has legal power over what I may and may not do with that book--my own property. This a a gross violation of the most important right that underpins social progress: the right to private property. Ergo, Copyright is Stealing.

  52. Show me the act that makes downloading illegal? by Grcie · · Score: 2, Informative

    People keep saying 'illegal downloading'

    Please, someone show me where it says that downloading is illegal.

    Here's the Copyright, etc. and Trade Marks (Offences and Enforcement) Act 2002

    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/ukpga_20020025_en_1

    Perhaps I'm missing it, but I can't find where it says that I, as a private individual, am committing an illegal act by obtaining an unlicensed copy of a movie

    Business yes, distributing yes, merely posessing? No

    1. Re:Show me the act that makes downloading illegal? by cpghost · · Score: 1

      People keep saying 'illegal downloading' Please, someone show me where it says that downloading is illegal.

      IANAL, but if it is not illegal to download copyrighted material without the rights holder's consent in your country, it soon will be... just like in many other jurisdictions in the EU. It is as if a master plan is being implemented in national laws all over the world (ACTA anyone?). Give or take a few years, and it will be nearly universally illegal.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
  53. Yeah, make the evil ISPs pay for it! by minion · · Score: 1

    'Under the proposed laws, Ofcom, the industry regulator, would be given powers to require Internet service providers to collect information on those who downloaded pirate material.
     
    I want to propose a law that states that the burden of expense should be placed on the phone companies every time a drug dealer makes a phone call that results in illegal trafficing of drugs.
     
    I want a law that says the burden of expense should be placed on the tire manufacturers for failing to know if they're selling tires to drug smugglers who use their tires to commit their crimes.
     
    Who else sees the crapshoot here?

    --

    -- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
  54. Intense lobbying my ass by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

    "after intense lobbying...."

    More like after a dinner, champagne and some coke aboard a luxury yacht.

    Talk about buying a politician and bending their thinking.

  55. So you're basically better off shoplifting... by m509272 · · Score: 1

    So you're basically better off shoplifting, stealing from the library, breaking into cars, stealing iPods, etc. Sorry the "crime" does not justify the "fine".

  56. If it gets legal in India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I will get my landline disconnected.

    What is Internet????

  57. Arrrr... by twoHats · · Score: 1

    More and more law abiding citizens being driven to priacy ... arrrgggg - we loves it... some of em are even coders!

  58. Why p2p is good for network admins! by NSN+A392-99-964-5927 · · Score: 1

    Well here is a short turorial when you need to transfer data from one box to another legally. It can also be used as you see fit; 1. A recent copy of uTorrent. 2. Your external IP address. You can use http://www.whatismyipaddress.com/ to find this. 3. Your listen port in uTorrent. You can find this in uTorrent's Options > Preferences > Connection > Port used for incoming connections. 4. You must be clever/connectable! This won't work if you don't have port forwarding correctly configured. Here's what you need to do. Open up uTorrent and go Options > Preferences > Advanced. Scroll down to find bt.enable_tracker and set it to True. Restart uTorrent for this to take effect. Now, create a new torrent. As usual, browse to find the file or folder you wish to share. For the tracker url, use the following information: http://your_ip_addressyour_listen_port/announce So, for example, if your IP address is 123.123.123.123 and your listen port is 54321 then you would put this as your tracker url: http://123.123.123.123:54321/announce Remember to tick 'Start Seeding'. Tick 'Private Torrent' to disable DHT and Peer Exchange for this torrent if you want to. Now press 'Create and save as..' and save the .torrent file somewhere. uTorrent should now connect (to itself) and the tracker status should be 'working'. You'll note it has a 10 minute announce interval. All you need then is the .torrent file to start transfering content to another machine. I have found this helpful in the past.

    --
    All cows eat grass!
  59. The internet is a symbol of FREEDOM by kulawend · · Score: 1

    Ever heard of the saying "You give an inch they take a mile"? If you give these people the power to criminalize people who may or may not be downloading files illegally, what rights are they going to take from you next? The main reason why I enjoy using the internet so much is because it's mostly open, free, and unrestricted (unlike the real world). It seems like every day the companies and governments around the world are trying to change that so the internet is barred and restricted. Ask yourself this question, Is it REALLY worth loosing your freedoms on the internet to protect the profits of a few companies? I really don't think so. This is OUR internet, this is OUR world. Don't let them take it from us.