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New Wheel of Time Book — Chapter One Online, Released Oct 27
Tor Books has made the first chapter of the latest Wheel of Time book available to readers for free via their website. This is the first book to have work from Robert Jordan's replacement, Brandon Sanderson, since Jordan died in September of 2007. The Gathering Storm is complete and will be released on October 27th of this year. In addition, the prologue to this book will be available in e-book format on October 17th for $2.99. The whole of the Wheel of Time series will also be released as e-books with several of the books receiving new cover art as well.
Update: 09/07 23:42 GMT by KD : Reader Daniel Benamy points out that the correct release date for the prologue e-book is September 17.
Update: 09/07 23:42 GMT by KD : Reader Daniel Benamy points out that the correct release date for the prologue e-book is September 17.
What I want to know is, are they going to release it as two volumes like they threatened, or will they keep Robert Jordan's word that it will stay in one volume even if it has to run more than 1200 pages long?
It isn't true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep.
It might even make sense, but Jordan was just about the shittiest successful author I ever read.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
to download this book if they followed Jordan's writing style. The first chapter alone will contain so many electrons the internet itself will become unbalanced. Seriously, I swear he was paid by the pound for how much his books weighed. Long, flowery descriptions of clothing, scenery, hell, the crust on the underside of a chamber pot in the thirteenth bathroom of the summer home of the ice king's third cousin's dog. The series ought to come with a Wheel-barrow of time to avoid slipping a disc. Still, as long as there are trees left to kill and money to be earned the series will "be continued."
www.voiceofthehive.com - Beekeeping and Honeybees for those who don't.
That's really not the case here, he isn't Brian Herbert.
Sanderson's working entirely from very comprehensive notes, and entire portions of the book had already been written by Robert Jordan and just need to be glued together.
Not really...
Robert Jordan pretty much up and died in the middle of finishing his last book In Memory of Light. Leaving his family, publisher, and fans pretty much hanging. The recently got Brandon Sanderson to finish up the work; a very good author btw (see Elantris and the Mistborn series) who pretty much churned out part 1 of 3 in a year off of Jordan's notes. He was originally contracted to do 1 book but found it impossible due to how many threads were left open. I for one, am happy to see a good author finishing up this series in the original author's spirit (and with his family's blessing). So, as a fan I have to say fuck you for trolling.
T
Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
What makes you think that? According to the article, the new author was selected by Robert Jordan's widow.
I think it is one of the most difficult jobs in the world to finish a bestseller series. You can almost never do it right. You are always "not the original author" and therefore second best or worse. I certainly hope that Mr Jordan left enough notes for the series to be finished in a consistent state. I think it takes a lot of courage to take up this task.
Oh. And I am grateful that I will know how the story further develops!
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
I believe it has more to do with finishing the series than with extra cash... There are already 11 books in the series. Jordan said there would be one more (but there are actually going to be 3 more, not surprising with the amount of plot that needs to be wrapped up). I don't know of anyone that's read the series and liked it that would rather they left it undone, especially considering that Jordan left complete notes for the final part of the series, meaning that while the prose might not be entirely his, the plot is. (Yeah, yeah, nothing new under the sun, you can all shove it.)
No wait, that's not right...
I read the first 3 or 4 books thinking "This just has to start getting cool soon. It's got too much cool potential not to".
Silly me.
I think the only reason the later volumes even sold was because people didn't want to admit to themselves that they'd been persuaded to waste the time and money on the earlier ones.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
That's one take on it. The other is to give the faithful readers of the series a much needed conclusion to a story. When Wheel was introduced, it was touted as book 1 of a 9 part series. The first few books were fantastic. Then Jordan decided to stretch out the series so as not to kill his money maker. Book 13 came and went with no conclusion to the story in sight, and Jordan seemed to be milking descriptions of everything in his world for all they were worth in order to extend the series. Unfortunately, he then became ill and died. It's a tragedy for his family. But it's also a loss to millions of fans of his who are left with a story they have invested a lot of time and money in, with no conclusion or closure. I, as a reader, would welcome a competent author, going by Jordan's writing and notes, completing the series.
Amen, brother. I think the problem is that he was telling an interesting story, but in an utterly inept way. He's the George Lucas of fantasy novels, but with braid-tugging-skirt-smoothing-castrating-bitch "women" instead of Jar-Jar.
Selling the prologue for $3? I guess the next step will be selling only the consonants of the first ten chapters for 15$.
The problem with "notes" is that they might be contradictory, or fragmentary. Perfect examples of each would be Christopher Tolkien, and Brian Herbert respectively.
I think I've learned my lesson now - Regardless of how attached, disappointed, or involved I am I'll never buy or read any work which was created by somebody else after the author's death. They're always a disappointment, even if they shouldn't be.
(For example the upcoming "Douglas Adams" novel.)
I just found the prose horribly ugly. The basic fantasy world was so derivative of Tolkien that I just wanted to barf, but if it had at least been well written, maybe I could have got past that, but it was trash. I'm a bit of a fantasy fan, particularly Tolkien and Moorcock, and Jordan was the toilet paper of fantasy fiction.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Except that unlike Brian Herbert, the only actual story that Christopher Tolkien wrote was the chapter in the Silmarillion was The Fall of Doriath, because his father had only in fact written one version of that story, but in the earliest phase of the mythology, and it was entirely incompatible with the later variants. The entire History of Middle Earth series is JRRT's own writings, with Christopher Tolkien's essays and notes trying to clarify and relate various versions of his father's ever changing and rarely completed versions of the Silmarillion. CJRT apparently regretted his interference, though, after having read the History of Middle Earth series, the only alternative to rewriting the chapter was not to have released a published version of the Silmarillion.
I wish Brian Herbert would have just released the notes that his father had written about the Dune backstory and the sequel to the final Dune books. Instead he released just awfully-written trash (Brian Herbert ain't no Frank Herbert).
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Thanks for posting that, because I couldn't read the guy's stuff even though I'm a big fantasy, sword & sorcery 'n scifi fan. I'd rather reread ancient stuff like Zelazny, Moorecock or even, tier down stuff like 'The Black Company'. I tried a couple of times and just couldn't bear up under his prose.
ideopath @ play
And I like the descriptions I've heard of Elric of Melniboné, etc. But I tried reading a few of Moorcock's books and stopped because I just hated his writing style.
Different people have different tastes.
Not saying that Jordan is shitty, but quality is not a prerequisite for post-mortem whoring.
Ever read V.C. Andrews?
No sig
I just found the prose horribly ugly. The basic fantasy world was so derivative of Tolkien that I just wanted to barf, but if it had at least been well written, maybe I could have got past that, but it was trash. I'm a bit of a fantasy fan, particularly Tolkien and Moorcock, and Jordan was the toilet paper of fantasy fiction.
Personally I liked the series. My worst objection to it is that while I was about 4 books into it, this thought kept occurring to me: "as a plot device, just how many times is he going to have main characters get captured while travelling?" It felt like anytime anyone was on the road to any village or any city, their capture and subsequent rescue was going to occupy the next several chapters. That got old. I never did finish the Wheel of Time series but otherwise I enjoyed the books I have read.
It's not unlike a similar feeling I had when reading King's Dark Tower series (which I truly enjoyed - it's an amazing work). I got a little tired of hearing about New York City, as I greatly preferred to hear about strange new worlds, not concrete jungles. That could be because I don't live in a large city and wouldn't want to, as I personally find them to be nerve-wracking and suffocating. They're the kind of place I wouldn't mind briefly visiting but living there is extremely unappealing to me. The hustle and bustle never inspired me the way the outdoors always does, so I may have a bias that kept me from fully appreciating this part of the series.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Why have I not heard of him? Maybe I'll go torrent a couple of his books, and see if he can even write. The fact that some marketing agency is promoting this book is no indication that the author is even literate.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
The book itself is probably free to anyone who can read the prologue and live. You would think that a large number of people could do this - coma victims, people who have suffered brain death and live on ventilators. Then again I expect we'll see reports of "Coma victim awakens during middle of wheel of time reading, asks to be taken off life support if the reading doesn't stop."
www.voiceofthehive.com - Beekeeping and Honeybees for those who don't.
The basic fantasy world was so derivative of Tolkien
Nah, it was derivative of Dune.
This is not whoredom, this is blessed relief. I gave up on the series when I realized that the book I'd just read took 700 pages to get through... 45 minutes of real time? Or maybe it was a day, it's all lost in haze.
But anyone who's stuck to the series through however godawful books there are /needs/ an ending. They deserve an ending. I can't fault Tor here at all, they've done what they could.
I also don't envy Brandon Sanderson, having to slog through all of Jordan's books and notes and trying to make sense of it all and knowing it's probably a thankless job and the fans are going to hate you anyhow. The irony here is that Sanderson may be able to pull off something that Jordan himself would never have been able to pull off - actually ending the thing. You could see the Wheel of Time books as Zeno's Paradox in action. If with each book you only go half as far because you're cramming in twice as much detail, you will never reach the end. And I'm not sure Jordan ever would have been able to.
Maybe you will like this book and will buy it.
But considering that the prologue is going to cost $2.99, the new book better be something like "Terminator 2" if it has to make the entire series popular.
http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
Realism?
Just kidding. Mostly.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Moorecock? On a scale of 1 to 10, he rates a negative 5. He's quite possibly the only author I've ever thrown out rather than giving to the local library, because noone should be subjected to that schlock. Jordan had major issues with his later books, but he's Shakespeare compared to Moorecock. And Black Company isn't much better- it rates a 2.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
I recommend reading the first three. When Rand kills Ba'alzamon, stop. Just stop. Rand thinks Ba'alzamon was the Dark One, so should you. Whatever you do, don't read the next chapter, or you will have to go through ten increasingly poor books just to reach the end of the plot.
I also loved The Dark Tower, and coincidentally I'm currently re-reading it after several years (still at The Gunslinger). I don't like large cities either, and have never lived in one, but I think King's portrayal of New York from the eyes of someone completely foreign and removed from (almost everything in) our world and everything we think of as "normal" is interesting and engaging, if not as cool as the Wastelands and the tale of Roland's past :)
As for Wheel of Time, I can understand where the parent is coming from. I have read the first 11 books and they're generally too long and boring and full of highly repetitive and unimaginative plot devices. I'll also add that nearly all of the gigantic cast of characters are extremely annoying and shallow and I have difficulty identifying with them, which doesn't exactly make a re-read *these* books appealing. I don't think I'll buy the new books now that Jordan passed away. I'm tired of seing this saga extended over and over while he was alive, and I definitely don't need to fall back into the same trap now that we don't even have the original author with us.
The author of the new Wheel of Time Book rules. He is a fairly new author, but has some awesome books. They are some of the best epic fantasy books I've ever read. I highly suggest you read Elantris (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/book/Elantris) or Mistborn (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/book/Mistborn).
How can people who never read it know that they don't like it?
It distresses me that fanboys like you are probably here on slashdot waving the flag of freedom of speech in almost every one of the several articles we get every week that deal with censorship, but whenever the subject of your fanboyism comes up you suddenly want to shut up everyone who disagrees with you ;)
I just look on the bright side - at least the new author will actually finish the series
You can say a lot about Jordan, both good and bad (my wife likes the series, I wouldn't have read it if it wasn't in the house already), but the man did not know how to finish a story. I suspect he would have died with the series unfinished, whether he died now or 50 years from now.
Yabut, Moorecock wrote at a time when there were few outlets for the pulp fiction, fantasy guys like him had to pump out to survive. I always liked Stormbringer more than Elric who was just a weak, albino freak kept alive by magic potions and favours owed his family line by various spirits and gods. Much of Moorecock's stuff was cut 'n paste, but, again, those guys had to pump stuff out like junkies bleeding out in back alleys.
ideopath @ play
And I had been planning on doing some study this morning... DAMMIT
Thanks for posting that, because I couldn't read the guy's stuff even though I'm a big fantasy, sword & sorcery 'n scifi fan. I'd rather reread ancient stuff like Zelazny, Moorecock or even, tier down stuff like 'The Black Company'. I tried a couple of times and just couldn't bear up under his prose.
I'm with you - and the parent, and the GP. I tried the first book years back and put it down unfinished. Still, it pains me to see even a bad author's work unceremoniously passed along to some hack who can't do original work. I feel the same way about Herbert, whom I never much liked, and Adams, whom I did. I fully expect to see Discworld books after Pratchett leaves us and the thought makes me cringe.
(Offtopic, but for the record, Zelazny is one a my favorite authors, and I'm forced to admit to never reading Moorecock.)
Rainforest destruction legend Robert Jordan has successfully evaded paying off the advance on what was originally a four-page satire of ridiculous fantasy cliches, The Wheel of Time.
The epic originated as a piece of semi-amusing cubemail circulating on a private mailing list for writers bored with their day jobs. "But I just kept adding and adding to it," Jordan confessed years later. "Then someone snuck it into an Eye Of Argon reading session. And the idio-- I mean, tasteful and discerning consumers of science fiction and fantasy loved it! They couldn't get enough of it! Certainly more than I could be bothered with, anyway. If only I could find the Caribbean island Elvis, Jimi, Janis and Kurt are hiding out on ..."
The process of writing was reflected in the work. "You get long, stringy drips of various elements. All recycled. Then you weave them together. We thought of using a wiki, but people kept putting Pokemons in. 'My Pokemans, let me show you them.' Idjits."
Plaudits came in from fellow fantasy writers around the globe. "I always found plot and characterisation overrated," said master fantasist J.R.R. Tolkein. "They only get in the way of exploring a really interesting constructed language. The more demanding sort of reader can be so very tiresome at times."
"Bugger," said David Eddings, frantically casting his eyes about for fresh sources.
"Who are you, and where did you get this number?" said Neil Gaiman.
Readers will be over the moon to learn that Kevin J. Anderson has contracted to finish the series in a suitable manner. "I figure there's another twenty, thirty books needed to finish it properly. Lotta unanswered questions, yeah. I should have 'em done by next week."
Woolheaded shepherds the world over fold their arms beneath their breasts, tug at their braids, smooth their skirts and bow their heads today, and remember Jordan's wise words:
Illustration: Robert Jordan silenced at last.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
A quick survey of the comments so far paints an overwhelmingly negative picture for the series...
I just wanted to point out, as a life long fan of this series, that there IS a reason every book the series has appeared on the New York Times best-seller list, and most of them have been #1 when they first come out.
is to realize it's a perfect textbook example why shortening a series can make it better, but seldom will lenghtening it will bring any good.
If you'd actually read the series you'd know that it is nothing like Dune, those books had a clear ending, wheel of time basically left the whole series one or two books away from the climax. The people that have read the 13 books would really like to see some kind of finish line even if it isn't Jordan's.
Just checked Baen.com and all the Tor books sold through Webscriptions seem to be listed as "not currently available". Guess Tor wants to cut out the middleman.
My experience was similar, but somewhat different. I actually really enjoyed the first three or four books, but after that it just started to drag. He'd introduce new character after new character and then spend hundreds of pages trying (and usually failing) to make me give a damn about them. Then, from that point on, you'd have yet another interruption to the main story line to deal with before you ever got back to it.
I quit somewhere around book six. It just got to be too much. The fact that there has since been *five* more books and they're still not done, with these last three still on the ledger, convinces me I was right to do that. In fact, the fact that Sanderson couldn't even wrap up all these damn sub-characters' plots in one book is telling enough that Jordan never stopped that nonsense and got to the point.
Still, I dragged myself through at least one book or so before I just couldn't take it anymore, and you're right about the reason: When books weigh in at 700-1000 pages and you're already 4-5 deep, there's a powerful incentive to keep plodding along to the end.
On a semi-related note, Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy I found to be very good. They picked a good author to continue the work, and if not for all this Wheel of Time stuff I probably wouldn't have found him. So I guess some good came of it at least.
I've really enjoyed some of Moorcock's books, but just could not get through many of the others. For instance, I liked "The Warhound and the World's Pain," but I just could not get through the sequel.
I've been reading Prachett since day one, and, maybe you're right, but, I think, Mr. Pratchett might take steps to see that doesn't happen. It's nigh on impossible to get a true read on a writer by h/is/er works but Pratchett strikes me as a man of deep integrity. I've this recurrent, waking "nightmare" of writers like Pratchett having their work extended and raped by product placement ads.
ideopath @ play
I'm tugging it.
Well, yes. I discovered the Wheel of Time just before high school, and hoped that the series would be over when I got to high school. No luck.
I got to high school, I finished high school, I went to college, to grad school, got my first job (and subsequent jobs), met the woman of my dreams, started grad school the second time around - and in all this while, the man still hadn't finished the series.
And then he died. While I do feel bad for his family, I certainly wasn't pleased as a reader. I had spent countless hours reading the series, and years (17, to be exact) awaiting the conclusion of his books.
Now while I am unsure of the quality of Sanderson's writing, I do not imagine that it would be much worse than Jordan's spin - what Jordan had in the past 11 books could have been compressed in about 4. In either case, I'm just waiting for someone to finish the ending and be done with it.
Same here. Got through the first few books, and stopped once I realized that it was going to take at least 15 years before I'd ever see an ending.
Then, from that point on, you'd have yet another interruption to the main story line to deal with before you ever got back to it.
See, I enjoyed that, it made the world feel "real". Everyone has their own motives and goals and some believe Tarmin Giadon(Spelling?) is coming and some don't. But all of their actions have affect on the world and getting it ready for the final battle.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
I don't understand, if you skip all the text referring to someone "smoothing out her split riding skirt" you could have probably saved a couple of volumes.
Melvin [Jack Nicholson] from As Good As It Gets
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
I dunno. It's a tossup between him and Ann Rice for the shittiest successful author award.
Sure. He said that - but I also recall that he added the caveat, "even if it means it's 2,000 pages +"
Remember, Jordan's widow was not only married to him, but was also his editor, so that lends a bit more weight to her choice to have Sanderson finish the series.
Just read the first chapter. I can't believe it. The new author is a chip off the old block. He managed to include a braid-tugging scene. Other than that, I think he did a good job. Hopefully he picks up the pace; the pacing of the first chapter was a lot like RJ, perhaps a tiny bit faster and cleaner.
It isn't true unless it makes you laugh, but you don't understand it until it makes you weep.
Yes - because Jordan was probably sure that based on his condition, he wouldn't live to finish more than one book.
If you want to make the argument that he should have compressed books 7-10 into one or two books - I won't argue with that. I find it hard to believe though, that anyone who has actually read the whole series could believe the series could be concluded without it feeling incredibly rushed in just one more book (following where the plot was at after Knife of Dreams).
The wheel of time is one of those series that I think could of ended up like a religion. Eventually someone starts a religion around the wheel of time proclaiming that Robert Jordan (their literary messiah) will return to earth to finish the series. Thankfully another author is going to freaking finish it so we are spared another terrible religion on this planet. Unless of course someone declares this new author the devil and the subsequent books false. Then we may have a buncha of people waiting for the return of Jordan to write the end.
A few months, maybe a year ago we were discussing Jordan and Sanderson, I mentioned that even if Jordan can't finish a series, he sure can finish a book! The guy writes epic endings, someone here mentioned that Sanderson is just as good, and being on the third book of the Mistborn series, I would definitely agree. I have full confidence that he can finish the series well.
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
I too, have been disappointed by Robert Jordan's later books. When he passed away I was really pissed off the series wasn't done yet while he could have finished it 6 books ago, and I had never heard of Brandon Sanderson.
However, I decided to check out Sanderson's works - and I was amazed. He is now one of my favorite fantasy authors. While the man himself seems to be a great fan of Jordan's series, I would personally say each of his books surpass the entire Wheel of Time series in both writing style and originality. While it is my opinion that his stories are not as 'epic' as other series, they are an absolute joy to read and I found it hard to stop reading them (and actually get some shut-eye). Stop bashing on the series and give Sanderson a chance, he may actually surprise you and make these closing chapters of WoT worth the read.
In another comment someone mentioned picking up the "Song of Ice and Fire" series from George R.R. Martin in a comment above. I did the same and I was also completely blown away! However, one must note that it has been a while since his last publication in the series and the next book is getting more and more delayed, while George R.R. Martin himself has now passed 60 years of age and still has at least two more books to write [after this one]. Let's hope we'll not have to pull "a Sanderson" on him as well.
Either way, if you enjoyed George R.R. Martin and are looking for something worthy to read, you might also enjoy Steven Erikson. While he's no Martin, his "Malazan book of the Fallen" series is definitely worth reading!
Good thing not all books are made to fulfill your opinion of what is good, then.
I found the first 3 or 4 books very so-so and only the later volumes to become quite good.
Certainly, it's still not as awesome as A Song of Ice of Fire -- the best fantasy series in my opinion -- but it's still quite good.
The fact that there has since been *five* more books and they're still not done, with these last three still on the ledger, convinces me I was right to do that.
So a series is automatically bad if it is unfinished at the end of book eleven? I must say, that notion seems quite ridiculous to me.
(Disclaimer: I've read the Wheel of Time series four times. I've read other almost-equally-lengthy series as well. IMO, length doesn't make a series bad, poor writing makes a series bad. RJ's writing style is not for everyone, but it works for me; apparently it doesn't work for you.)
On a semi-related note, Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy I found to be very good.
Agreed. I would also recommend Warbreaker (available online as a free PDF, or you can get it in hardcover) and Elantris. If you have kids or youngish siblings, Sanderson also writes a children's series that I've heard good things about.
Thank you for that, agree 100%. Some people just seem intent on kicking Jordan when in fact his writing is pretty damn good. The story does drag a bit in the middle novels, but overall about 90% of the rest of fantasy writing is drivel compared to Jordan's stuff.
How can people who never read it know that it's garbage, either. How about you take a dose of your own medicine. If you don't like it, that's your perogotive, but don't start slamming anyone who calls out people who are basically talking shit about someone's books without actually having read them.
Sanderson is not the one who decided to split the book into three books; Jordan's wife is the one who made that call, and the one who is the editor and final decision maker on everything related to the final book(s). Get your facts straight.
She was also the editor of all of Jordan's books. Google is a fucking wonder, eh?
Excuse me?? The parent wrote, and I quote,
you don't like his stuff don't read it.
I replied that if they don't read it, they can't know whether they like it or not.
In other words, you are agreeing with me, but implying that both I and the parent wrote the opposite of what we did, and that therefore you are agreeing with the parent.
don't start slamming anyone who calls out people who are basically talking shit about someone's books without actually having read them.
That's not what the parent did, what the parent did was try to dismiss the opinion of those who disliked the book after having read it. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked them not to read it.
When you are replying to something, please read carefully before posting.
This is just wrong.
They've said that the series was originally intended to be a trilogy. There have been only 11 books so far. This book will be the twelfth.
I don't know Jordan's reasons for extending the series. You are probably right that they were not honorable and everything after the 5th book was garbage, with the exception of Winter's Heart and Knife of Dreams, which were still only shadows of the first few books.
Overall, I wish I hadn't started the series, but now that I have, I'm kind of looking forward to it again for the first time in years.
At one time Jordan said it would be a trilogy. Then 6 books. When wheel was actually introduced in the stores, as I said, it was touted as 1 of 9. I still have the free book (just part of the first whole book) given out at the time. 1 of 9.
Yes, I typo'd on the came and went number. 11 came and went. 13 is the one that's being written at the moment, but won't finish it. Hopefully 14 will.
I gave up -- terribly disappointed -- after the 4th or 5th book. Although I found his characters pretty misandric at times, I generally I thought Jordan did a great job of bringing characters to life in a world that held a lot of interest for me. The part that made me give up on him was the senseless addition of every cool character and plot twist he could come up with. (Did he ever tie up ANY of the loose ends he spun off with such abandon?) I came away thinking that he only cared about stringing his readers on for as long as possible. Building up an enormous Rube Goldberg machine, one book at a time.
When I heard he was terminally ill, I read his essay on the topic and his resolve to not even try to tie up loose ends because it gave him some kind of incentive to "get better". At that point I was pretty glad I'd already given up on him. To get halfway (? 40%? 20%) through building this huge structure and them basically saying "sorry guys. I probably won't live to finish and if I don't? No soup for YOU!)
Several people have mentioned a hope that this new author will wrap up the series. Why do you think that he will? What incentive does the Jordan estate to *stop* publishing this wildly popular money making series? I submit to you that they have every incentive to do what Jordan did... Keep adding more characters to the mix and continue milking this series it for all it's worth.
When did I become such a cynical old man?
Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
You realize the first few books were standard cliche childish random-guy-gets-taught-he's-special-and-how-to-use-his-powers-to-save-the-world-against-the-reviving-evil-lord?
If you think *that* is fantastic, you must have a very shallow knowledge of fantasy.
What made the series good is the different simultaneous point of views and the interacting actions of each character and entity in the world (which simply weren't there in the first books, where Rand was the main protagonist). Those makes the world and story much more dynamic, alive, and attracting to the reader who can then feel entwined in the plot between the various parties.
Also, when Rand gets serious instead of being an emo teen, it becomes quite more interesting since there are bits of strategy involved and his actions have a lot of influence on all other point of views of the series. The fact that the chapters he's the main character of are very scarce and sort of cliffhangers or arc finishers puts a fairly nice touch to the books too.
Sure, the series is still fairly manichean, but the distinction gets a bit fuzzier, in particular as mis- and dis-information is spread thanks to those crazy women and their secrecy.
Since when is expanding a world to make it have more content and be more vivid a bad thing?
The goal is not to close up the series as quickly as possible, but to make it an interesting read.
People certainly don't think Tolkien's work -- which truthfully is way overrated -- sucked because he spent a lot of time furthering the world instead of making stories.
God, you have way more testicular fortitude than I do. I barely could finish the first book it was so bad. It read like a bad LoTR derivative until about half way through the book it just plain started sucking. I cannot imagin what the remaining 10 books are like.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
So you read books to reach the conclusion?
Reading must be quite disappointing for you then, since conclusions are hardly ever exciting.
The conclusion of The Wheel of Time appears quite deductible anyway, from all the elements and prophecies that were given throughout the books.
i got to book 9... god how i wish i could get those parts of my life back... by book 9 you'd read several hundred pages and think "what actually happened then?" and realise the whole series was becoming like days of our lives where only watching ever forth show was necessary (so im told, i do not watch days of our lives for the record).
Seriously talk about a waste of money, i cant believe i actually kept reading until book 9 - i am SUCK A DUMB A** (feel free to quote me on that in the future when i post annoying things).
The basic fantasy world was so derivative of Tolkien that I just wanted to barf
Having read both the Wheel of Time and the Lord of the Rings several times (as well as various LotR-related books like the Silmarillion), I'm not sure what you're getting at. I can think of only a few small similarities:
- Lan Mandragoran has a backstory similar (but not identical) to that of Aragorn, but the characters themselves are quite dissimilar.
- The Myrdraal bear a passing similarity to the Nazgul, but only because they wear black and cause fear; the Myrdraal are otherwise entirely different.
- The Trollocs bear a passing similarity to the Orcs, but only because they're the "bad guy" infantry; what we know of Trolloc and Orcish social structures are entirely different.
These are minor similarities at best; arguably, none of them are key to the plot. None of them are vomit-worthy, either. So, I ask you: in what ways do you think the Wheel of Time world is derivative of Tolkien?
Robert Jordan pretty much up and died in the middle of finishing his last book In Memory of Light.
Robert Jordan has been in "one book more" mode for half a dozen books right up until the part where he got sick and thought he might begin in the direction of moving the series towards a close. Even then, I think he was much too caught up in his own plot and writing style to have actually finished in one book or even three. Just judging by how few of the subplots that are closed that could have been closed, I don't think he was very good at keeping track himself. It wasn't a recurring case of going off on subplots, it's subplots spreading out like a fan as the series progresses, two new appearing whenever one is closed. If he did a real job, it'd probably be like Brandon Sanderson discovering there was a million plots to close or it'd be a rushed "let me throw this out there before I die" sort of thing.
While I reserve judgment until I actually see the result, having someone else finish up the work might be the best thing that's happened to the WoT since the last half a dozen books. Someone that's actually good at bookkeeping and closing plots that really has the ability to bring the series to a consistent close. I'm guessing the final ending of book three (14!) is already well outlined as it's been hanging out there for years, but getting to that point is closing the unclosable. Not too unlike the filming of Lord of the Rings, that was also supposedly impossible to make as film. While in this case they're both authors, I'm hoping Sanderson can be to Jordan something like what Jackson was to Tolkien.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I think the only reason the later volumes even sold was because people didn't want to admit to themselves that they'd been persuaded to waste the time and money on the earlier ones.
Nearly. The only reason I bought the later ones was because the first four or so were so good (imho, ymmv, etc) that it *had* to pick up the pace again at some point. Sadly it wallowed out not into a river delta but into a turgid mud flat.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Having met Brandon Sanderson in person, and discussed the 3-books vs 1-book issue, I can tell you that it wasn't his idea. Tor decided they wanted something to publish this November. In order to meet that requirement while still delivering a coherent story, he had to tear what he had written apart (move some things ahead to the next book), and fill in the gaps with other stuff. Discussing the result with Tor and RJ's wife, Harriet (who is basically in charge of the Wheel of Time), it was decided to publish the last book in three volumes over three years. The "Wheel of Time: A Memory of Light: Volume I" name got dropped later because it was too long, so the first volume was renamed.
Sure, Brandon's getting paid for his work, and he'll certainly get paid more for writing three books than he would for just one. But it wasn't his intention, so I can't in good conscience say he's milking the series. What I can say is that he's doing his best to follow in Jordan's footsteps as he writes the final sections of the Wheel of Time. We can judge based on the result. If after the third volume we can see that the three volumes were filled with needless fluff, then sure, we can say Brandon was making the books longer than necessary to get more money. But based on what I know of Brandon, and based on what we know about Robert Jordan himself, I do not think that will be the case two or three years from now.
In any case, Jordan claimed he'd do it in one book "even if they have to invent a new binding method." Had Jordan lived long enough to finish the Wheel of Time himself, I'd be willing to bet that the final volume would still have been multiple books, and you'd be complaining that Jordan himself is milking the series. (That is, I'm guessing you'd assign malicious, money-grubbing motives to either author, if the final volume turned out to be more than one book.)
When Wheel was introduced, it was touted as book 1 of a 9 part series.
Actually when the first Wheel of Time book was published, it was supposed to be the first in a trilogy ;)
Uh... I've never heard of a book author who gets paid by the word. (Or do you have reason to believe Jordan was getting paid by the word?) Authors get paid based on how well their book sells. Sure, established authors might get advances, or larger advances, but either way it's based on the volume of book sales, not based on how much ink was used to print the book.
If you think *that* is fantastic, you must have a very shallow knowledge of fantasy.
Gosh, gee-wilikers, I wish I had such an in-depth knowledge of fantasy as you. Piss off. If you have a different taste in books that's fine. If I happen to like something you don't, that's fine too.
since when is expanding a world to make it have more content and be more vivid a bad thing?
The goal is not to close up the series as quickly as possible, but to make it an interesting read.
When did I EVER say expanding a world to make it more vivid was a bad thing? I didn't. It simply shouldn't be done at expense of the telling of a story you started.
Tolkien didn't go off track in the LOTR and insert 7 books between The Two Towers and The Return of The King because he wanted to describe intricacies of how Galadriel liked to play with here hair or the affair her blacksmith was having with some maiden. Or give the entire histories of the Silmarillion in there. He tried to keep to the story and complete it. He gave enough details to flesh out the world, but didn't let himself get distracted entirely by them. Further materials to further detail his universe could be published separately, or as part of another set of stories as appropriate.
I'd suggest you grab Warbreaker online for free, it's Brandon Sanderson's most recently published book; it was also available as a PDF through Brandon's website during the whole course of its writing.
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/Warbreaker_hardcover_1st_ed.pdf
okay, here, let me help him by correcting the statement for anal smartasses like yourself.
"you don't like his stuff don't read more of it."
This is a story of interest to FANS waiting for the book to come out. This is not an appropriate forum for trolls who want to post flamebait here that amounts to nothing more than "Jordan sux0rs". Its inappropriate and adds nothing to the discussion.
My, the snark.
Conclusions are certainly part of it, yes. One can only read a cliffhanger for so long. 17 years is pushing it.
AFAIK the number of volumes planned for the series was decided at least six novels ago. You can debate whether or not it would have finished with this book on schedule or not but this was planned to be the last book and the previous book was never intended to be the last.
Isn't that how Scientology works? Give us some money and we'll show you level one. Give us some more money and you get level two. Then three. Really, you'll learn the life changing secrets soon!
Eh? I'm halfway through Brandon Sanderson's second Mistborn book. Sanderson's writing seems pretty good to me, and the first Mistborn was very original.
I have high hopes for Sanderson's treatment of WOT.
DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
sorry but I'm with the GP. I like things to have a beginning, a journey or experience, and an ending. I hate MMORPG games because they never end. When I find a book I can get into then I am locked into the book until it is finished. Generally I get up to piss, sleep, eat, shit, and work and inbetween there is the book until it is consumed. I am the same with movies, tv shows.
I hate walking away in the middle when my mind is already invested in handling all the details of the subject matter. Removing my attention from the subject matter scatters that focus and causes me to drop all the delicate threads of details and plots.
The kind of focus I give to a work such as a book simply can not be maintained forever. There are so many delicate threads of detail and interconnected plot in the WoT series that I can't kept them all filed between books. I will be glad when I can finally read the series from start to finish, book one to the finale.
That is a bit unfair though. Six books (10+ years) have passed since Jordan said it would be 12 or 13 books.
While the OP's post may admittedly be flamebait and inappropriate, that is no reason to dismiss the opinions of the many OTHER people who are disappointed with the series and who chose to express that throughout this article's comments. The story is of interest to a lot of people; I don't remember slashdot stories being restricted to certain interest groups, and even if they were, it wouldn't be for you to decide who gets or doesn't get to post.
And an added comment about flamebaits:
fuck you for trolling.
Your mom
anal smartasses like yourself.
It's a very relative concept. I am discussing this matter in a perfectly civil and neutral manner, while you fanboys are being aggressive and insulting people just for disagreeing with you. I wonder why I can't take you seriously.
I don't know if it's unfair. When I was talked into buying the first book when it came out, the chain (It's been so long I can't remember if it was Barnes & Noble/B.Daltons, Waldenbooks, etc. One of the big chains anyhow) had both in their monthly newsletter and fliers in the store about how this was book 1 of what would be a 9 part series. Since I started buying the books under that premise, I think I can hold them to being at least within a couple books of that, or having the right to moan about it when it doesn't get finished.
Fanboy? No, I'll freely admit that the Wheel of Time is longer than it strictly needs to be. I'll even concede that the story got out of control (in terms of length), and Jordan wasn't quite capable of containing it. And unlike Apple fanboys, I don't expect everyone to like it. I'm hardly a fanboy.
Sure, I've read the series multiple times. Sure, my online ID is derived from the Wheel of Time. Does it matter that I came up with the name in the context of a Star Wars game (Jedi Knight II)? Does it matter that I own the Lord of the Rings CCG, but not the Wheel of Time CCG? (Point being: Fan, but not a fanboy.)
Don't make the mistake of thinking "he's saying something good about it, so he must be a fanboy".
Absolutely. Those who dislike his work dismiss the intricacy and consistency of the WoT plot as simple outlining obviously don't even begin to have a concept of what is involved.
It is a challenge to follow everything and catch all the connections as reader... I can't even begin to fathom actually keeping a WoT encyclopedia in my head in order to write this story in an error free way. I couldn't even begin to outline something so vast and intricate.
To me its like dismissing the great masterpieces handcrafted in marble that you can almost watch breath in the right light by pointing to a chisel and stoneworking for dummies.
I suspect a great deal of the hatred for Jordan comes from Tolkien fans who hate him on principle because he was compared favorably with Tolkien so often. Then there are those who lacked the wits to follow the story.
That's not what the monthly newsletter from the national bookstore chain I bought it from said. Nor was that on the display where I got a free copy if the first part of the first book. By then it had long changed from being a trilogy.
Yes... but you didn't buy it when it was first published ;)
And I didn't mean to imply that it was being advertised as a trilogy, simply that that was Jordan's contract with Tor at the time.
Oh yes, I did. It was a loooong time ago.
By the time it was published and actually in the stores, Jordan and Tor both knew it would be way longer than a trilogy. Heck, by the time the first draft of the first book was done, everyone knew it wouldn't be wrapped up by book 3 by a long shot. And that was a long time before the book launch.
Given the number of things that have to happen in the series as it stands today, there is no way that the series could have been wrapped up in one normal-sized book, at least not without a lot of handwaving and unanswered questions. Jordan just said "One more book" because he knew that people were bemused by the continually moving goalposts.
With all due respect to Robert Jordan, one nice thing about having a lifelong fan like Sanderson finish the series is that he knows exactly which threads the fans want to see resolved, and he's in no position to deny us. RJ might have gotten away with never revealing e.g. Asmodean's killer, but Sanderson doesn't have the luxury to be coy.
I'd definitely agree with you, though I can see how someone might get that impression if they only read the first book. In EotW I don't really think Jordan had "found the voice of the series" yet, and a lot of the what goes on in the first book reflects that. By Book 2 he has, and the similarities stop there.
Cool art gallery, if you're into that sort of thing.
Heard about this on one of the fan sites. Some film-makers are putting together a documentary about Jordan. The website is at http://wots.spiralent.com/ Looks interesting, hope it is shorter than the books!
The big problem is that Jordan depends on cliche and an adolescent view of sexuality to fuel his novels. I read the first six books in middle school, and at the time my Dad wanted to see some of the "dragon books" I read -- he got through a couple of Wheel of Time novels before giving up. I thought he didn't know what he was talking about.
When I tried reading them again in college, my literary taste had developed enough to make the problems so obvious that I wondered how I read them in the first place: the characters were flat, the writing stale, and Jordan seemed to have so little grasp of how people behave.
That so many people defend Jordan's writing is one reason for the unfair "genre/literary" divide afflicting science fiction and fantasy.
There is good science fiction and fantasy out there; most recently, Lev Grossman's The Magicians astonished me. Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy is excellent. I could go on. Given that there is some really, really good material out there, the continued fascination with Robert Jordan or his brother-in-writing Terry Goodkind surprises me.
L Ron Hubbard was the most successful shitty author ever. If you have ever voluntarily decided to torture yourself and you get tired of ripping fishhooks through your testicles, you can read his series.
I quite enjoyed James Rigney's writing style, and I thought his approach to Conan was well done. I have a lot of respect for him. He is a genuine hero and deserves props for his service, with a distinguished service cross and a bronze star acquired during two tours in Vietnam.
He also deserves props for having graduated with a bachelors in Physics, a degree plan which is definitely not for the faint of heart.
As to his Wheel of Time series, I found it to be highly entertaining and involving. His characters have a depth to them, and he allows those characters to act according to their strengths and weaknesses, even if it having them act in a different manner would make it easier to advance the plot. If a character is scared to death of heights, he isn't going to cross over a tightrope, even if that were the smart thing for the character to do. The character freezes, and gets caught.
The world he created was immense, and one could write hundreds of books inside that world. The mechanics of the world are reasonably consistent, providing an even backdrop to the heroes and the villians.
His book was also only one of two books that have ever made me physically react while reading. Stephen King's IT actually made me jump in a chair while reading it, and Robert Jordan made me so mad at one of the characters I jumped up, screamed curses, and threw the book across the room.
While his writing style is not for everyone, those of us who find it enjoyable are overjoyed that Brandon Sanderson will, with the help of Jordan's widow and his notes, finish the series. James Rigney worked as hard as he could the last month or two of his life to get as much information down for the next author to continue his work and finish the series. I for one, can't wait for it.
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
Couldn't you have just accepted it as a warning that it was never going to be a quick read? If some of those middle books had been as good as the early or most recent, I don't think there would be so many complaints...
One thing I really love about WoT is the diversity of characters. I used to hate most of the women when I was younger. But when you talk about the series with a wider variety of people, it seems like a lot of women identify with the women in the story, and not always the same ones. Similarily, I like Rand but I have many friends who read for Perrin and as many who for Mat. I'm really trying to say two things. 1) Pay attention to some of those characters you don't like because they represent a lot of readers who closely identify with them. 2) Yea, this actually is a LOT like jar-jar, except instead of being introduced late with the intention of drawing in kids, jordan wanted to very broadly represent many different people and personality types that actually do exist in our society, right from the start.
As someone who isn't big on reading but has finished the entire WoT series twice now, I can't see this as first and foremost being about making money. Of course the publisher wants as much money as they can get but from interviews I have read they seem to also have a healthy respect for Robert Jordan's work. I feel like I "know" the characters of WoT in a way, and I desperately want to know how their stories end! I have faith in Harriet (Jordan's widow) finding a good author to complete R.J's legacy and with the amount of notes and work Jordan left behind, the "finish line" of which you speak will be the one Jordan intended (if the brand of shoes used to get there might be different).
I may or may not have a point with this, but I think you are far too narrow sighted and *err* slashdot "mainstream" to enjoy WoT. How does having multiple plot lines, each deep enough to stand on it's own (disregarding whether or not you like the characters), weaving back and forth, crossing paths, pushing and pulling and sometimes crashing into each other make for bad writing?
Yes, you're allowed to say you don't like the books just like you can say you don't like Mercedes. You can, however, not claim that Lada is better than Mercedes, because it is simply untrue.
Robert Jordan was a writer of such rare talent as to write a gigantic, multi layered epic with natural, realistic characters, each with their own agendas and motives, and a huge world of different cultures and history. If you don't have the attention span to read the books and see this, that is your problem, not a flaw of the author.
Yeah, the way I heard it, he swore the 11th book would be the last even if it was 2000 pages... And then went right on to the 12th. And now the 12th is 3 books worth and we'll definitely going out to the 14th.
He apparently lost his way when the book started writing itself... If he'd just kept control of the book, instead of throwing everything in that came to mind, the books would have been a lot better. I've sometimes wondered if someone couldn't take books 5-9 and condense them to make a better series.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
I won't even bother reading the free content if it has anything to do with Jordan. Sorry.
It started interesting, it became boring, then when he started resurrecting antagonists, it became ridiculously annoying.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
You should read up on what Harriet, Sanderson and Tor publishing has to say about the subject. Mr. Sanderson has already completed a good bulk of the three last books, with the last one containing Tarmon Gai'don.
Now, you might argue that Tor might want Sanderson to write the Infinity of Heaven series, as well as other side stories and prequels. However, Sanderson has already publicly posted a refusal to do this as he thinks it would just be milking Jordan's amazing work (of which Sanderson has been a fan for many years).
I think we're safe. I might check out Mistborn though. Can anyone tell me if that series is any good for someone who loves the works of Tolkien as well as WoT?
You can debate whether or not it would have finished with this book on schedule or not but this was planned to be the last book
Brandon Sanderson says it'll take three books to sum it up and each of those will be a 300000 word log like the previous WoT books. That means Robert Jordan would probably take at least twice as long, given his usual style. Either Jordan was planning to leave 90% of the subplots hanging, or he was trying to enter the Guinness Book of Records for thickest pocket book. More likely he realized how absurd the claim was that he'd finish it all in a book but couldn't tell his fans he'd need half a dozen which he wouldn't be around to write.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
"that is no reason to dismiss the opinions of the many OTHER people who are disappointed with the series and who chose to express that throughout this article's comments"
Yes it is. Its reason to dismiss them along with anything else that is off-topic. They are doing nothing more than trolling and trying to draw flames from the fans who will be attracted to this news.
"I don't remember slashdot stories being restricted to certain interest groups"
No but they are restricted to certain topics which is why moderators such as myself have an offtopic moderation. This story is about a chapter being released in a new book. If you really must hate read the chapter and then hate on the content.
"I am discussing this matter in a perfectly civil and neutral manner, while you fanboys"
A bit of a contradiction in terms don't you think?
That's like saying "I am discussing this matter in a perfectly civil and neutral manner, while you liberals"
Or
"I am discussing this matter in a perfectly civil and neutral manner, while you right-wing nutjobs"
As for being called an anal smartass. If you make a smart remark you are a smartass. Check. If you use a literal remark as the punchline then you are being anal. Check. And when the individuals point was clear in context and the literal remark was an obvious case of choosing poor wording. Well that is textbook anal smartassiness.
That is not some random insult. Nobody is calling you a jerk or a fuckwad or other meaningless slam. It is a very specific factual observation of your remark.
"I am discussing this matter in a perfectly civil and neutral manner, while you fanboys"
A bit of a contradiction in terms don't you think?
That is not some random insult. Nobody is calling you a jerk or a fuckwad or other meaningless slam. It is a very specific factual observation of your remark. ...I wonder where I read this before.
No but they are restricted to certain topics which is why moderators such as myself have an offtopic moderation. This story is about a chapter being released in a new book. If you really must hate read the chapter and then hate on the content.
Who ever said I hate Wheel of Time? Besides, people are criticizing aspects of the series that they've read and expressing disappointment which may influence whether they are willing to read or not read the new chapter. Obviously they can't comment the story within the new installment, since it hasn't been released yet.
Comments about Wheel of Time are definitely not off-topic in a Wheel of Time related article. And you aren't any more of a moderator than I am, since you have chosen (as I did) to post in this article rather than modding it.
If my ideas about what constitutes off-topic are wrong, someone should tell that to everyone who meta-moderates my moderations. I receive a constant stream of mod points.
George R. R. Martin as well. He's taking forever and a decade finishing a dance with dragons.
$x = ($x * 10) % 10 >= 5 ? 1 + int $x : int $x
Blog link about the covers here:
http://igallo.blogspot.com/2009/09/wheel-of-time-ebook-repackaging-or-wo0t.html
William
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Could you explain to me why you seemed so concerned about having to finish the series?
For the record, I enjoyed every book of the series, some more, some less, but all enjoyable on the whole. So I don't mind Jordan writing out book after book, except for the fact that he didn't live long enough to write more.
Why would it upset you if the series go to book 20 if every one of them is good? Is it because you no longer like the book and just have to "finish" it? If so, why not just consider the last book you read as "finished" and move on? I did that with the Sword of Truth series, I just stopped after book 6 or 7 and never bothered the rest.
Looking at the comments in the last book of the Sword of Truth series, you can see lots of comments saying they just "have to finish it" even though they don't like the series anymore. I just wonder if so many negative comments about Jordan not finishing the book comes from people who just cannot stop even though they no longer like the series.
Oliver.
I both like and dislike Jordan. I think he found himself unable to control his story and characters, and that the series suffered for it. However, I have every intention of buying and reading the remaining books, and expect to enjoy them.
OTOH, there are most likely some people who have never heard of the Wheel of Time series. Reviews of the series (which is what many posts here amount to) are useful to them in determining whether or not they might enjoy it and thus should begin reading it. OTGH, these "reviews" (on both sides of the issue, mind you) are generally not very well done, written, or thought out. In short, I think that posts that amount to "I think Jordan is not a very good writer for these reasons" certainly add something to the discussion, although perhaps not as much as they could.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
I dunno. I checked out Elantris when I heard he was going to finish up the series and for some reason just couldn't get into it. One of the few books I've bought that I have left half read. Honestly, it reminded me of the last 6 books in WoT as far as pace was concerned. So in that sense maybe he was a good choice. I'm sure I'll pick this book up, but not until paperback which probably won't be for a while. I'm sure they'll make some good scratch for a while on the hardcopy.
(Disclaimer: I've read the Wheel of Time series four times.
That just sounds painful. I'm with the others though, the books are far too long. He has whole books devoted to fleshing out sub-plots that don't matter and aren't going anywhere. Sure it might be a bit interesting, but I'd rather go back and deal with that huge dangling piece of the primary plot that you left 3000 pages ago in book four.
It was like he began a basic plot framework, and then decided to devote a book to each little subplot and minor character that came along. What he should have done was finish the plot, and then add in books later that fulfilled his need to recount each and every little detail.
The parent is lying. Whatever you do, do not listen to him.
It just occurred to me that it would have been like if Orson Card had never finished the book Ender's Game. If instead he had started it, but then started pumping out books to deal with the various sub plots and people on the station and what happened to them. Later on he did actually write separate series for the characters, which is what (I think) Jordan should have done. Instead we have 10,000 unfinished subplots.
I'm kind of semi-permanently pissed off at getting suckered into buying+reading the last four books of that series. So let's please have some reviews when/if the series actually ends. (Calling the next volume "The Gathering Storm" doesn't induce confidence--the storm has gathered and dispersed some dozens of times already by my count).
Funny how we Americans insist on endings though. The Europeans are not so fussy, it seems, at least to judge by their movies.
Agreed. My interest in WoT was largely due to its new ideas. Saying it is basically a derivative of Tolkien is just odd.
Any idea of the length of the three books? Are these going to be three 1000 page books, or 300 page books?
If after the third volume we can see that the three volumes were filled with needless fluff, then sure, we can say Brandon was making the books longer than necessary to get more money.
If after the third volume, we can see that the three were filled with needless fluff, then all we can say is that they're just like the previous six or seven books.
Karma: Poor (Mostly affected by lame karma-joke sigs)
Sanderson's writing style is not terribly similar to that of Robert Jordan. It's a more popular style, less prone to spending three pages describing the layout of a room. If he's a good enough author, he can work around that issue, though.
Rock falls. Everybody dies. Easy.
If he's a good enough author, he won't work around that issue.
If Jordan had lived, he'd have spent the entirity of the whole book describing the sound of some woman's snort as she decided on what to wear that morning before she sat down and thought about what she might do 6 books down the line.
Would you like a slice of toast?
Why would it upset you if the series go to book 20 if every one of them is good? Is it because you no longer like the book and just have to "finish" it? If so, why not just consider the last book you read as "finished" and move on? I did that with the Sword of Truth series, I just stopped after book 6 or 7 and never bothered the rest.
Can't speak for the rest of the universe, but for me the big issue is that Jordan lost track of what the series was about - there's so many sub-plots, and new characters, and little side quests, that you can go through an entire book and the main plot didn't advance at all.
I'd be happier if some of the little side plots were moved to their own books, so that the main plot could, ya know, advance
Someone tell me, will this book be the last??
(Please god let it be done)
Brandon guessed at around 800k words for the three books together. If memory serves, The Gathering Storm ended up around 250k words, which I think is about normal for a Wheel of Time book, putting the final three books between 800 and 1000 pages each.
That just sounds painful. I'm with the others though, the books are far too long.
Oh, I agree that they're longer than necessary for the plot, but I still enjoy them.
As for whether it's painful... I seem to have an unnaturally quick reading speed, so it goes rather quickly for me. Maybe that's why I enjoy WoT...
Not for the new book, but for new cover art. I know life in Randland is hard and all, but the main characters look like grisled 40-somethings by book three, and the women look more late twenties. And let's remove the "pronunciation help" from the glossary, not even Jordan followed them.
Shift happens. Fire it up.
I just look on the bright side - at least the new author will actually finish the series
The end of the Wheel of Time series is like anti-vaporware.
He has whole books devoted to fleshing out sub-plots that don't matter and aren't going anywhere.
I was always of the opinion that the myriad of mini-plots were kind of a blended statement about chaos theory and fate. All the petty little schemes and self-promoting plots of varying people who are too proud to bend to the will of the Dragon Reborn, or who never really seem to have anything to do with Rand at all, actually merge together at the end into one grand EVENT that couldn't possibly have happened without their tiny contribution. Or at least, that's what I tell myself to get through the slower volumes :)
I ask, because at the time there were indeed 9 books in the series, which would explain the discrepancy between your recollection and those of other submitters.
The only female character I had a problem with was Elayne; at some point, my feelings about her side of the story came down to, "Someone either give her the damned throne, or kill her. I don't care anymore, I just want this part to stop."
Other than that, I'd say the books were mostly good.
Learning about brewing beer, by brewing beer.
D'oh! Well, at least there might be enough space to tie up all the subplots that were started.
Robert Jordan made me so mad at one of the characters I jumped up, screamed curses, and threw the book across the room.
I've gotta know... what character, what scene, which book?
Well I'll post as someone who actually likes the series. I'm on my fifth read through as I wait on the new book. Some people certainly have valid criticism about certain stretches of the novels, however each time I've gone through the series I've been more impressed and enjoyed reading it more each time. He really displays an amazing attention to detail and he rarely puts in things which are pointless. The only exception I make to this clause are his common repeated characterizations. Namely skirt straightening, Perrin being cautious because he's large, etc. We've been with you for thousands of pages, no one is picking up the books at number 10 and starting fresh. He already asks a lot from the readers with regards to paying attention and putting together clues, it's odd that he belabors some parts so heavily (Note I say this before the series is over, maybe my opinion on this will change). One line offhand comments he makes I can now attach to something that will happen or be explained 3000 pages later. Some of the story threads I like less then others, however the ones I dislike are almost always different then the ones others dislike, and they all fit together to make the fabric of the world. As someone mentioned earlier it is vaguely Rube Goldberg-esque.
He weaves an incredibly detailed story line using an impressive amount of characters, and it's one of the best series I've ever read if you enjoy putting together clues as you go. I haven't had a read through where I haven't had new 'aha' moments as I find hidden meanings he's left. I like some characters, I find others infuriating, but that's the point, his characters make me feel something as I read and I don't hesitate to pick up the first book again every year or so when my reading to-do list is empty.
Anyone that's a fan of fantasy books at all should read Mistborn (and Sanderson's other books). It's not quite like any other fantasy I've ever read. There's a good amount of action. A good amount of character development. Some people are there for the action, some are there for the motivations. Sanderson is amazingly good at writing both. I gave a copy of the series to my dad who read them and then told me: "The last 10 pages make the whole series worth reading." Man, those books were fun.
"It is a very specific factual observation of your remark"
Which remark is that? Define fanboy and establish a specific textbook example of fanboyism in my comments. I gave specific examples that established my comment as fact. I provided premise and structure that result in a valid argument. That is the difference between criticism and bashing. For that matter any student of logic can tell you that any argument that is made without valid premise and structure is invalid even if the conclusion correct.
"Who ever said I hate Wheel of Time?"
A bit self centric don't you think? This thread was discussing the people hating on the series. The only one who included you among that group is yourself. We aren't talking about something you are doing or not doing here.
"Besides, people are criticizing aspects of the series"
Nobody is talking about constructive criticism. The first several highly modded comments in this discussion are nothing but trollish remarks designed to incite a flamewar... which they did successfully.
So far I haven't seen any cases of criticism with a valid argument attached.
"If my ideas about what constitutes off-topic are wrong, someone should tell that to everyone who meta-moderates my moderations. "
Okay then. Give your criteria for defining flamebait, troll, and redundant. I challenge you to find any definition for these moderations that wouldn't include all the "Jordan sucks" posts under this story or at least all but one of them.
"Either Jordan was planning to leave 90% of the subplots hanging..."
Jordan and Sanderson both indicated that he intended to leave quite a bit hanging. At some point in his journal Sanderson began to question whether this would be best for the readers and if he should change it.
That upset me a great deal when I read it but now I am not sure. Jordan intended to be around and possibly follow up with a second series or other books that might have followed up on some of those sub-plots. Sanderson has said he has no intention of writing someone elses series for the rest of his life. Maybe it is better to tie up the loose ends if there is no more text coming down the road later.
I'm thinking this happened a couple of times now. I remember a 1/2 of book 1 freebie being offered when book five was released in hardback, as well. And I think I remember something about the series needing nine books at that point.
-- My work here is done. If you need me again, just admit to yourself that you're screwed, and die.
It was the only way women in the universe knew how to communicate, you know... snorting and sniffing a lot. Many pages of it. Over and over again. Probably going to need some fancy pants editor to keep the flow going, or a Perl script.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
This was 1990, so book 9 definitely wasn't out.
No, no, men sniff and women snort. This is a basic secondary sexual characteristic in the WoT.
Would you like a slice of toast?
Nobody is talking about constructive criticism.
I am. Why did you assume otherwise?
So far I haven't seen any cases of criticism with a valid argument attached.
Then you can hardly have read the other comments to the article.
The only one who included you among that group is yourself.
No, you did:
If you really must hate read the chapter and then hate on the content.
You know, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you. I'd heard of people like you, but I think it's my first time communicating with a live specimen. The kind of nerd with a little job and a little life who comes online to jump into a thread where other people were debating and bicker endlessly about details so he can feel good and superior at something.
And you know what? I have better things to do with my life. So I concede. Congratulations. You win this internet argument. Whatever you're writing is right and true. Feel free to reply to this post any amount of times with more contradictory arguments, or to twist my words even more, or to insult me. I promise I won't steal your thunder by replying anymore. Have a good evening.
When Rand alThor gets bonded against his will by the green Aes Sedai
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
I see your point, but the nitpicker in me is making me continue:
I don't know that I'd call Gandalf a magic user in the same sense that Moiraine is a magic user. The only time the Hobbits ever really see him do anything extraordinary is when he uses his staff as a flashlight in the Mines of Moria. (Ok, facing down the Balrog was "extraordinary" but there was no visible magic, if I remember right.) By contrast, Moiraine repeatedly uses saidar in highly visible ways, even before they leave the Two Rivers.
Furthermore, several years pass between when Gandalf said "you'll have to leave the Shire" and when they actually left (though the movies just ignore it), and when they did finally leave, Gandalf wasn't even with them. Rand and his friends left the Two Rivers almost immediately in the company of both the Aes Sedai and her Warder (Aragorn's counterpart).
My point is, there are only so many ways to start a story; nobody should hold a grudge against Jordan for the vague similarities to LotR that one could find in the beginning of the Wheel of Time, especially because (as you point out) he did make the series very much his own.
Ditto. Jordan should have just wrapped it up after the first few books. But kudos to him for starting a series that has lived longer than he did. Beats selling cars for a living.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
I read 5 or 6 WoT books and realized Jordan was never going to finish the series and gave it up. I read a couple of the Enders Game sequels and just didn't enjoy them much, but EG is till one of my favorite books. Wish Jordan would have started with a good, complete story than taken it on from there. But he did sell a lot of books...
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
We have strayed from the point and I take the blame. I apologize for calling you an 'anal smartass' if you find the term offensive. I refer to myself as an anal smartass on a regular basis and am probably desensitized to it. I meant only that you were making a witty remark by playing on an overly literal and nitpicky interpretation of the AC's comment. Witty (smartass), literal/nitpicky (anal).
The AC referred to people 'bagging jordan'. You suggested he was trying to dismiss them. I disagreed. I was referring to the unsupported and non-constructive opinion posts bashing the author. Apparently you took it to mean any negative opinion of the author and I suspect our disagreement rests largely on this point. I can not speak for the AC so you may be right that his comment was intended as a blanket covering literally every negative Jordan post.
What could have been a great opportunity to discuss the book, the new author, and the comparative writing styles has devolved into nothing more than a long repetition of +5 moderated comments to the effect of "Jordan was a long winded bastard who couldn't finish a series". That's a fair criticism but only the first time it is said. Yet it is repeated in so many words in about 12 +5 comments before this thread.
That is what has me upset and I suspect the AC as well. Not that criticism exists but that this thread has become little more than a bashfest with haters being given the loudest voice. These posters have taken a loud volume and someone considering reading the series would read this discussion and think it the prevailing opinion. It is not the prevailing opinion, there are more NY Times bestselling books in this series than I have fingers.
"No, you did:
If you really must hate read the chapter and then hate on the content."
Taken out of context. If it was not clear, let me rephrase to make it clear. 'If one really must hate, read the chapter, then hate on the content.'
Outside of what I believe to be an overly literal interpretation of the AC's words I didn't notice any hate comments from you regarding Jordan. My comments were certainly not intended as a personal attack.
"You know, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you. I'd heard of people like you, but I think it's my first time communicating with a live specimen. The kind of nerd with a little job and a little life who comes online to jump into a thread where other people were debating and bicker endlessly about details so he can feel good and superior at something."
I prefer to think this assault was the result of you feeling attacked and cornered. Rather than lashing back in turn and furthering negative sentiments I hope I have cleared things up.
You seem an intelligent fellow. If we can not reconcile our difference of opinion on the subject then that is alright. People don't always have to agree. But I would hate to part trading slights over any matter but especially a matter as trivial as this one.
so the truth is exposed! robert jordan's characters were all furries! horse furries! i mean why else did they sniff and snort all the time? that can only be the right answer!
... tried the first one a few years back, it just didn't "pop". Can't answer for the whole series, of course.
On the other hand, Brandon Sanderson is a fine writer/storyteller IMHO... I loved the "Mistborn" trilogy. So if you are a WOT fan, the series might well go out with a good story. Finally.
-Dave Haynie
Very classy reply. I think you're right about our disagreement, and I apologize for my previous post.
Thanks, will without a doubt be looking into Sanderson's writings. At the moment, I am 217 pages into Warbreaker. Can't say it's Jordan or Tolkien, but it's not Twilight either. Actually, I think it ranks pretty close to the Sin Wars trilogy (Blizzard Diablo lore) both in terms of use of language and story-telling. It takes considerable talent to "paint the picture", so to speak, like Tolkien did. I still daydream about attending a party in the Shire with all the merrymaking, consumption of homemade food and drink and pipe smoking. Aaaah.. To be a hobbit! *sigh*
there's so many sub-plots, and new characters, and little side quests, that you can go through an entire book and the main plot didn't advance at all.
I may be the minority here, but I actually liked the side plots and other characters. Although some of the characters (e.g. Perrin and Faile) I would prefer Jordan not to write so long about, but I understand some people do like them so I tolerate it.
While it may seems like the main plot didn't advance, but I say it would make a boring story if we just read Rand blow through all obstacles one by one and then win Tarmon Gaidon (we all knew he will win, don't we?) and then "The End". When Jordan describe the background and thoughts of even "side" characters (e.g. Bors) in detail, I appreciate the effort he took and amazed at the consistency of the whole thing.
From the start, it is quite clear to me that the story is about more than just Rand. Especially when the story focused on Mat leaving Tar Valon, I realized every one from Edmund's Field will play an important part.
I started when the first 4 books or so have been published, have re-read the series nearly every time a new book came out (and a couple times extra in-between), so I must have gone the whole thing 5-6 times by now. Yet on every re-read, I noticed things I missed before, and found hints and subtle references in the early books about plots revealed a few books later in the series. E.g. Mat first saw the Tower on Genjei (sp?) very early in the story when fleeing Shadar Logoth (I think), then a few books later Perrin saw it again in the World of Dream when chasing Slayer, then more hints about "snakes and foxes" when Mat play with Olver, and finally in the previous book we know Mat is going to get inside to save Moiranne (sp?).
I felt amazed at the gigantic plot Jordan was weaving in the book, and I can appreciate both the effort it took and realize it may take time to read. This is not the "I will write another sequel if it sells" kind of series here. It is clear that Jordan has at least most of the major plots in he head every early in the series.
I also realize this series is not for every one.
But if it took 3 more books for Mr. Sanderson to finish the story properly, I thank him for taking the time to do the job properly (at his own expense too!) rather than taking a shortcut.
Oliver.
Further Frodo isn't Elendil Reborn, Pippin doesn't speak to wolves, and Merry doesn't have extraordinary luck. Orthanc has an old, corrupted wizard in it rather than a boatload of powerful, ageless women. Nazgul are a few, corrupted Kings of Men, and are much harder to kill than Myrdraal.
The differences are vast, only someone who's only shallowly read one or both would think they compare significantly.
Ah, that explains the stunning similarities between Baerlon and Bree, Bela and Bill the pony, etc.
I suffered through several of these as audio books over a series of long road trips. I hope the new author didn't try to mimic Jordan's style.