Slashdot Mirror
Scientists Decry "Horrifying" UK Border Test Plan
cremeglace writes "Scientists are dismayed and outraged at a new project by the UK border agency to test DNA, hair, and nails to determine the nationality of asylum seekers and help decide if they can enter the UK. 'Horrifying,' 'naive,' and 'flawed' are among the words geneticists and isotope specialists have used to describe the 'Human Provenance pilot project.' The methods being used to determine ancestry include fingerprinting of mitochondrial DNA and isotope analysis of hair and nails. ScienceInsider blog notes that it is 'not clear who is conducting the DNA and isotope analyses for the Border Agency,' and that the agency has not 'cited any scientific papers that validate its DNA and isotope methods.' There is also a followup post with more information on the tests that are being used, and some reactions from experts in genetic forensic analysis. This story was first reported in The Observer on Sunday."
This isn't even funny anymore.
Aparently, simply discrimating by skin color is not cool anymore.
They had a TV program last year when they did some genetic tests on people who considered themselves to be 100% English. I remember that out of 12 one had mitochondrial DNA that would have had his female line originating in Eastern Europe, one had Jewish ancestry and another Indian - and these were all people who did not know of any non-British relatives.
Add to that the millions of people who have known foreign ancestry but British citizenship and the whole idea becomes useless.
The problem isn't the scientific validity of the test; the problem is the idea that an emigrant's nationality should factor into whether they should be allowed residency.
The science is horrible, but the root of the problem is primarily political and perhaps moral.
It has to go this way for V to eventually be able to come and free us!
Soon to be in an airport near you...mandatory DNS sample of all visitors to this, thank God, free country.
It seems that Britain has finally become the true antithesis of an Empire: rather than trying to expand, it wants to shrink and implode upon itself....
It's not far.
Isn't the out of Africa theory based on the situation where there is as much genetic diversity in people within Africa as there is worldwide? There is no "Arab" gene, and even if there were consider that Saddam was born only about 300 miles due south of his very european hero Joseph Stalin.
Security theatre snake oil strikes again in a fairly nasty and devisive way. You might as well screen people by height or just admit the predjudice and screen for skin colour because many people from Pakistan and India look like exactly like many dark haired europeans with a deep tan.
Somebody is in it for the money and is playing off people's predjudices to get it.
Apparently, the UK's royal traditions have finally caught up with them and everybody in a position of power there is retarded.
Children Of Men.
Name...That...Autocomplete!
Hey, it's not about MAKING MONEY. It's about SAVING MONEY.
We can screen out expensive diseases and genetic problems to not overburden the health service.
This is a great idea.
You mean like Franks, Saxons, Walloons/Welsh and Frisians all living in one country?
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
Well, your country is being overrun by Muslims.
At the rate the UK is imploding, you'll be lucky to find a 100% English person anywhere in 200 years.
I wonder if anyone will care?
"Of course the resident's nationality is a factor in deciding whether residency is allowed: in fact it should be the major factor."
Why?
"And the rule should be a simple one: if you are an EU national you are allowed residency in the UK, otherwise not."
Why?
"We also need to cancel these stupid loopholes that allow nationals of ex-Imperial colonies any preferential right of abode."
Why?
"The British Empire ended over 50 years ago!"
Yes and the children the empire left behind are now baby-boomers, eg: I am a British citizen with permenent residency in Oz, since I was 4yo at the time I had no say in my relocation from the UK to Oz in 1964. By your logic I and a few hundered thousand others in my situation should be moved back to the UK but our Aussie born children should not be allowed to go with us, why?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Really? The very same ones?
Surely you can't be implying that all scientists everywhere are responsible for the actions of all other scientists everywhere, all the time? 'Cos that'd be pretty absurd.
Oh wait, that's exactly what you're doing.
Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
Would they look at my half Scotish side? Or the German half? Or would they look at it and say I came straight out of a chimp via Africa and Mesopotamia?
Apparently I'm a cunt then.
Name...That...Autocomplete!
City health officials carried a first report regarding the HIV/AIDS incidence in Washington D.C. Up to now, due to its special and unique status, Washington D.C. has been under congressional management and was kept apart from other U.S. cities. Although, the city has adopted routine HIV testing, Washington D.C. citizens have to ask to take this test.
The city health officials report shows numbers that are very high compared to other U.S. cities. More HIV infected babies are born in Washington D.C. The city rated almost 9 percent of pediatric AIDS cases in 2005. The number of heterosexual contact transmissions is higher than Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York City, Detroit and Chicago. ...
Yep, doing fine. Gobama!
100% of the people in Washington DC are of African descent.
I suppose the high rate of poverty, AIDS, drug crimes and murder are in no way related to the mix either.
You are so enlightened!
"his very european hero Joseph Stalin."
Yes, Hussein was a communist and the US was always Husseins enemy, and when he started an unprovoked war and used chemical weapons, the US condemned his actions.
FRA: STFU GTFO
Does this mean mankind will soon lose its ability to reproduce?
But you skipped the tough point, you coward.
If they are going to go down that root surely the Pencil Test is faster and cheaper? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil_test
The so-called tests will find exactly what they are designed to find, and that is a reason to exclude undesirables by broad category. The categories are all ready figured out (skin color, etc.). "Science" provides the rational cover for what would otherwise be overt racism. I say, call it like it is: bigotry.
There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann
The Bell Curve, published in 1994, was written by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray as a work designed to explain, using empirical statistical analysis, the variations in intelligence in American Society, raise some warnings regarding the consequences of this intelligence gap, and propose national social policy with the goal of mitigating the worst of the consequences attributed to this intelligence gap. While the data sets presented remain unchallenged even today, many of the assertions put forth and conclusions reached by the authors are very controversial, ranging from the relationships between low measured intelligence and anti-social behavior, to the observed relationship between low African-American test scores (compared to whites and Asians) and genetic factors in intelligence abilities.
You'd think the BNP winning the last election would have made some headlines.
At least then the NPD in Germany and the Aryan Nation/KKK folks in the US could have known to send them a bunch of congratulatory flowers, or something... :P
The two of you should be beaten to death with a ball peen hammer.
How's that for a fine film?
Too bad the AC cites public statistical measures, and you cite liberal stereotypes.
Typical emotional non-logic! Try harder lefty.
http://asianconservative.com/
that's because new york should be the capital of the US.
...if the country announcing such plans wasn't the UK, but Germany.
Just under 70 years ago the UK was fighting tooth and nail to defend their country from a fascist empire that had a fairly famous history with profiling and oppressing or promoting people depending on their genetic heritage...
Any person who cannot complete basic maths, science, and an "English as a second language" qualification, more than likely GCSE, written in their own language, is denied entry.
A lack of these basic skills will guarantee a life at the expense of the UK tax payer, and that's the really big string in the far right-wing party's bow; Living off money earned by others. Kill that issue, and kill far-right party support. Two birds, one stone.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Should the authorities simply look the other way and allow GB to be flooded with illegal aliens who refuse to assimilate into British society?
The answer is, of course, "no". The electorate in both France and Germany said, "no", when voters elected pro-Western politicians to run the government.
Let's be clear on this matter. Uncontrolled immigration wrecks a society. France now has large ghettos of Middle Easterners and Africans who refuse to assimilate into French society. They should be deported.
At this point, someone will cry, "racism". The correct rebuttal is to highlight the French of East-Asian ancestry. They readily assimilate and do not pose a problem for the French. In much the same way, Americans of East-Asian ancestry have assimilated and contributed significantly to American society. During World War II, Japanese-Americans volunteered to fight against both German and Japan -- yes, Japan. The 442 battalion of Nissei was the most decorated battalion in the U. S. Army. The Nissei showed their valor when they rescued a group of American soldiers who had been trapped in the Battle of the Bulge.
Every nation in Europe has the right (1) to determine who can enter a European country and (2) to favor some immigrants over others. I applaud the British government for its recent tough stance against uncontrolled immigration from Africa and the Middle East.
[...] if they show the person really is from war-torn Elbonia [...]
Everyone knows the Elbonian civil war ended years ago.
"If you think the problem is bad now, just wait until we've solved it." --- Arthur Kasspe
Likely you also a liberal-- and don't support Israel either.
http://tinyurl.com/kob49j
Sad, that.
...and write a policy that says, "Wogs, go home"?
Seriously, it amounts to the same thing, but it eliminates all the funds that would be spent on all of these DNA tests. Because after all, if the accident of someone's birth is enough to determine their worthiness for British society, why not just do it on sight? "Get lost, coon!" It'll save a fortune.
P.S. Sure, a bunch of American Japanese did fight in the U.S. Army against Japan in World War II. The alternative, of course, was internment camp. Funny how war, fear, and poverty can make xenophobes out of even the most enlightened cultures.
Breakfast served all day!
It's 'far right' to not support lazy assholes living off the dole for life?
You are a moron.
One of the biggest reasons why immigration has become this 'problem' has been the Labour party's approach to multiculturalism, which counter to what you may think actually encourages segregation. This has only lead to hostilities amongst different ethnic groups. London should be a melting pot, but it's not - the changing ethnic demographics of London have been rapid over the last 30 years and that has been difficult for people to adjust to - lack of communication, different cultures and customs that are at times mutually exclusive, just destroy any chance of having a homogenous society.
I would imagine that many of the asylum seekers are probably refugees from ethnic discrimination, or even worse ethnic cleansing. Many are probably forced to flee precisely because they are descendants of foreigners or a minority ethnic group. Wouldn't it be directly counterproductive to refuse refugees on the basis of their lack of ethnic purity?
I expect no less from New Labour's Grenzpolitzei. Tbh I'm surprised they aren't just proposing to shoot all asylum seekers on entry.
Just look at the rare earth elements in great demand.
African countries have it, but we're buying "no questions asked" and insurgents are mining the stuff, buying guns with the money (putting it back in to the first world) and these guerillas then destabilise the government, to ensure they keep getting the dosh.
Well, my knowledge of history is not that detailed.
But I know a nice historical text, where somebody in the early medieval Netherlands did not like Vikings, also because "they combed their hair every day!". Nowadays, people are discriminated because of the cloth covering their head. Nothing's changed really....
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
In a land far away, some sleazy corporate lobbyist slithers up to a sleazy corrupt lawmaker, saying:
'Look guv, you got this problem with all them dirty immigrants, right? 'n the Daily Hate is on your back. 'n you've got an election loomin'. Well, mate, it's your lucky day. My company has got this infallible way of identifying where all these creepy immigrants come from. Once that's done yer can ship 'em back from where they comes from, like. We'll sort this problem for yer. Mind you, it's expensive, know what I mean! It'll cost yer, but yer can pass in on to the suckers who pays yer wages. Sweet ain't it. Life sure is sweet on the right side of the fence (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) Know wot I mean, guv!?
Just rubber stamp denied on all applications without even reading them.
since muslims tends to import their culture and religion and not assimilate in to your society and eventually Great Britain will look like the middle east...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Sometimes I wonder whether these measures are only proposed to serve as a reminder of the atrocities it is possible to commit with modern technology.
I hope this never ever sees the light of day, nor anything like it. It's clear discrimination based on ethnicity and exactly the sort of thing that the UK's incredibly diverse multicultural society should rebuke.
I presume the idea of the isotopic tests is to get some idea of where in the world the person has been lately, because different parts of the world have different isotopic compositions of materials such as water (e.g., oxygen isotope concentrations). The problem with this is: if you wanted to be thorough, you could spend a few months or a year eating and drinking only imported water and food -- expensive but possible. And depending on diet there are going to be enormous variations anyway (e.g., if your diet were primarily fish and other seafood versus land plants and animals). Isotopic tests are useful for all sorts of things, but figuring out which side of an arbitrary national border you were on is ridiculous.
Spoofing the DNA test wouldn't be practical (despite Gattica), but as the article emphasizes, it's kind of a moot point, because DNA doesn't yield nationality anyway. People move.
Free DNA test! Not that I wanted to live in Ocea... I mean UK, but learning more about your ancestors sounds like fun.
Don't forget to measure the skull too.
This effectively amounts to "all those darkies look the same" writ large. I mean, honestly, Kenyans and Somalis generally don't even look alike, let alone share much in terms of culture or language. Wouldn't they be better off putting their effort into improving their interview techniques?
And all this is without even getting into the utter futility of trying to tell somebody's heritage from their DNA. The thing that instantly strikes anybody that looks into this even a tiny bit is that we're all mongrels and the whole notion of race is actually completely absurd. These idiots seem to think that because these people are from a place they don't really know anything about, they must be a nice coherent ethnic identity that will stand out like a sore thumb under analysis.
It's just stunningly ignorant.
So many running through my head, can't seem to narrow one down...
I know that Nazism did horrible things in the past and that (in theory) people of all races and nations are equal, but being always politically correct and not even trying to discuss issues like that makes them even worse.
I don't care about other people's nation or the colour of their skin. I do care about the culture they bring with them. And I do think that culture in Europe should remain predominantly European. This means either assimilating other cultures (people representing them living in Europe), or limiting amount of other cultures (people representing them) we import, or both.
I don't condone 1984-ish measures like described in this story, but I do think there should be limits to immigration, and I think toleration can go too far.
--Coder
The problem with using dna to determine tribal or racial characteristics is the statistics. The differences between dna of members WITHIN a race or culture are far larger than the difference in the average dna of two members of different races or tibes.
The impossibility of using dna as a determinant has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with statistics.
Actually this feels more like Gattaca
When one ponders about the foundation of using DNA for anything, very, very few times will immigration be a believable application. But what can DNA normally be used for? For me, the first thing is Law Enforcement. Now if I look at DNA and immigration, and combine this with a growing acceptance of Interpol Criminal Data Basing, the logic becomes straightforward. Law Enforcement feels compelled to now get DNA, along with a Photo, and a Name. I think I will consider investing in the La-z-Boy Corporation. Because when Law Enforcement thinks they can solve crime by sitting in a comfortable chair, more, usually worse, crime occurs.
I smell some 'Enlightenment' philosophy here.
The coincidence of this, concerning the fact that my history minor is discussing this very thing at the moment, is just not funny anymore.
Actually, you assume that is true. There may be other evidence that comes along the way and destroys that. One of the issues with anthropology is that new evidence (mostly via Archaeology and new sciences such as DNA) comes along that shifts assumptions. For example, it was assumed for nearly 100 years that dinosaurs were cold blooded and only in very recent times is it being thought that they were warmblooded. It is quite possible that we will think in another 30 years that man originated in Asia because of new fossils found in say China, and then we figure that all men descended from that area.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Last time I checked, a properly-authenticated, non-forged passport tells you everything you need to know about a person's nationality.
Genes tell you absolutely nothing about a person's nationality.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
...Hitler would jerk off on it.
I dunno, I've seen a few neanderthals walking around.
In France, it's 80% of police data that is wrong! Maybe you should be impressed by such a "low" error rate...
Well, you claim to wear no pants...
Ezekiel 23:20
What the fuck is going on over there?
Seriously, cameras in people's homes to make sure their kids are being "properly parented;" testing DNA at the border to determine ethnicity (and who knows what else, because what does race have to do with nationality these days)... Branding children as future criminals at age 5 based on hyperactive or normal anti-social kid behavior....and there's more that I can't even remember now.
England is becoming some nightmare 1984/Gattaca mashup...Brave New World indeed.
That's a pretty remarkable DNA test that can tell someone's political affiliation (because, let's face it, that's what they're actually checking for - guilt by racial association). I'll bet within 6 months or so they'll even be able to tell what religion one subscribes to! In a couple of years, what ice cream flavor you prefer and (gasp!) your actual sexual orientation!!! I feel so much safer now!
What won't surprise me is if some Giant Old Man In The Sky just waves his pinky finger at this planet and demolishes it wholesale in complete frustration. Couldn't blame Him at all for that...
~Just as a thing fails if it lacks a kernel, so too it fails if it lacks a skin. ~ Rumi, Discourses
1. Dig up George Orwell from his grave.
2. Hook him up to a generator.
3. Watch him spin! (Wheeee!)
4. Profit!
[End Of Line]
The summary deeply disturbs me. Their definition of "Horrifying" in this situation is due to confusion about who is doing DNA and isotope analyses and that the agency has not cited any scientific papers that validate it. It is HORRIFYING that they would do something like this at all! It doesnt matter who is doing it and what validates it, the fact that they are doing it AT ALL, even if they have scientific validation, is WRONG.
I'm really interested to hear your definition of "Europe". I think you'll struggle to find a definition everybody can agree with. Tell me what the boundaries or Europe are.
Accept that boundaries are always changing.
I grew up in the UK, when I was a kid people talked about "going to Europe for their holidays". A number of people in the UK do not consider themselves to be European. That's a good starting point if you want to discuss "what are the boundaries of Europe".
Even if you made the ludicrous assumption that they could consistently and accurately get meaningful results from the test (I wouldn't have that much faith in a government lab associated with the immigration office), there's the fundamental logical problem: your genes (physical composition) haven't much relation to your nationality.
A lot of American citizens came from somewhere else. Israel will accept anyone that can properly document their jewishness (honestly, I have no idea what their criteria are) as a citizen.
UK immigration rules are based on nationality, which is a mutable trait (I can change it, at will, with a certain amount of effort). Isotopic measures probably relate more to occupation than "origin", and your genetic history is an independent variable. My kids have dual nationalities, and if my wife and I adopted a child from abroad, it could have 3 or more. How would the genetic test effectively identify the provenance (in legal terms) of the child. A US citizen could easily be genetically tied to any country on the planet and be no less a US citizen than someone in Chicago.
100% of the people in the WORLD are of African descent.
Free Martian Whores!
DNA samples?? What's next? Anal probing?!?
Who needs aliens from outer space, when the government is on its way to doing this to humans?
How do I get off this rock?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
DNA tests in the UK are performed by a private company (Forensic Science Service)..... I dont think its hard to see where this really came from.
I think you might be searching for this Pencil Test.
The scary thing is the Pencil Test might actually be more reliable than a DNA test to determine a person's nationality. Once you get into these poorly correlated correlational variables problems, the results can be very difficult to anticipate and are never reliable, except in small-size sample tests.
Next on the plans is what I remember from an online game my wife played.
In this game, was a gameshow called 'Who wants to be an immigrant?'.
It entailed that the person(s) who wanted to become legal immigrants, would run a death course (read Running Man like) and if they survived to get to the land, they could become a legal immigrant.
And this was of course aired on live TV.
How soon you think before the UK go this route?
I wouldn't mind if I dropped dead today, as the future is gonna suck. Everywhere. I used to really enjoy reading about the advancements of science and technology, but now today's geek playtoy is tomorrow's tool of oppression. Truly sad to realize that all Western governments where merely waiting for the costs to drop and the effectivness to go up before perverting all these amazing technologies and scientific breakthroughs to impose a police state in all facets but name.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
is that probably the only pure native British are the Welsh and the Cornish - jeez, just sink the country now.
"At this point, someone will cry, "racism"."
Well, yes, because you are one.
As long as you group together thousands or millions of people in a homogeneous group, assigning the same behaviours to all of them for the simple fact that they share some ancestry, nationality or physical characteristics, then the only definition you deserve is that of racist.
Each person who needs or desires to migrate should be judged on his own, personal circumstances. Anything less than that is lazy racism, of which you are clearly guilty as you were fearing.
Given your fascist enthusiasm for the deportation of people en mass, I am sure you will agree that the large ghettos of British people that live in France and Spain, who refuse to assimilate into French or Spanish society, should also be deported, since they are so many that are wrecking their host societies, in accordance to your own shameful theories.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yep, doing fine. Gobama!
Um, yeah, because I'm sure that prior to Obama there were no infectees in Washington. They all moved there or started having promiscuous AIDS sex in the last year or so...
It is the UK government, scared shitless by the right wing press, who refuse permission to work to people that are requesting to stay in the UK.
Asylum seekers have said in many instances that they would be happy to earn their own sustenance while their case is reviewed and adjudicated. If they are a burden (minimally small one btw) it is not a situation of their choosing.
Don't blame economic migrants and asylum seekers for the ineptitude of the UK authorities, the UK should have a fair and expedite system to deal with asylum claimants and a clear program to deal with illegal immigrants (which BTW are not the same group of people, the UK has international legal obligations regarding asylum seekers, it is irrelevant if asylum seekers don't apply for asylum in other countries through which their transit, if the UK was more engaged with the EU then perhaps an EU wide agreement about sharing the burden of receiving asylum seekers could be agreed, but again, it is not the fault of migrants if the UK can't make up their bloody mind regarding the relationship with the rest of Europe).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Knowledge can change - no shit. We all know that. Doesn't change that by current knowledge, everyone is of African descent.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
and call everything off there, so we can be done with this pile of crap ? thank you.
Read radical news here
This seems to me to be like the old White Australia Policy of the 50s only worse. Instead of scaremongering about "yellow hordes" like our politicians did, the English ones are calmly portraying this as purely scientific. Australia is often criticised for our treatment of asylum seekers, and rightly so - if I had my way, the detention centers would have a strict time limit on them. Can't establish credentials in three years, off you go; don't care where. Currently, people are kept there for five or ten years, there are people dieing of old age in the centers. If we were to ever suggest such a scheme as DNA testing all would-be asylum seekers, I imagine the UN would have a few choice words for us. Among those would be "human rights violation".
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
Look, if Britain would stop being pansy's and own up; drop the pc crap this wouldn't even be necessary. Once again give government a little science and they'll make a mockery of humanity with it.
The UK is already on my "wouldn't travel there on principle" list. This just puts it up a few notches.
Actually, you assume that is true. There may be other evidence that comes along the way and destroys that. One of the issues with anthropology is that new evidence (mostly via Archaeology and new sciences such as DNA) comes along that shifts assumptions. For example, it was assumed for nearly 100 years that dinosaurs were cold blooded and only in very recent times is it being thought that they were warmblooded. It is quite possible that we will think in another 30 years that man originated in Asia because of new fossils found in say China, and then we figure that all men descended from that area.
If you'd take the time to find out why we say man came out of Africa, you'd know that it's not really something that's up for debate. (Hint: first ask what we mean by 'man')
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
DNA doesn't work that way. You can't use DNA to determine the nationality. Of anyone. Ever. If you're really lucky you might be able to determine the aproximate part of the planet somebody's ancestors came from, but even at that it would be incredibly unreliable, what with all the intermarriage and stuff.
It's like they just threw out most of the last 50 years of biology and decided to go with some crazy 1940's eugenics-esque pseudo-science.
The only viable use for DNA like this is as a sort of super-fingerprint. And fingerprinting people at the border is already controversial, never mind absconding with parts of their bodies.
Yeah, it is not even remotely possible that large areas of Asia will ever turn up something that contradicts the evolution pattern that anthropologist CURRENTLY think. Yes, it is a KNOWN deal that all that will ever be known about this is 100% found out.
No, human life is theorised to have originated from Africa, that does not equal all humans are of African decent. What it does mean is that all evidence indicates that human life began in Africa. Evidence can change this so it cannot be considered or touted as an absolute truth.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Yeah, it is not even remotely possible that large areas of Asia will ever turn up something that contradicts the evolution pattern that anthropologist CURRENTLY think. Yes, it is a KNOWN deal that all that will ever be known about this is 100% found out.
Check your local university website for a Anthropology of Human Evolution(or similar) class syllabus, and then hit the library for the text they're using. It's probably covered in the first few chapters. There's a logic behind the 'out of africa' thinking that goes beyond finding a few bones.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
I dont see how this would even be effective. What about those people that come from multiracial countries ex. U.S. I mean at least for me Im only "American" by birth if they were to apply the same method here, then I would be deported since my DNA is Mexican and so would many others. So what happen if a multinational citizen gets checked? There have been numerous attempts in the past with tests such as language or physical looks. If they looked different they were deported or incarcerated even if they were legal citizens. Remember the Japanese round ups and the massive Mexican deportations through the Operation Wetback, how many U.S. Citizens were affected?? I believe that this is just the same thing different name, and just like those programs backfired this will also
Well if it goes ahead we got a chance of finally regaining control of our borders althou i believe they should be SHUT tight for the next 60 years ,
You can have unlimited immigration, or you can can unlimited welfare, but you can't have unlimited immigration AND unlimited welfare.
Ugh, ugh, ugh... please disregard my post. Sorry, Golddess!
It's *my* brain that's turned off this morning :(