Amazon Hobbles Features For International Kindle

Barence writes "Amazon has stripped several key features out of the international edition of the Kindle, PC Pro has discovered. Newspapers and magazines are delivered without any photos, and the web browser has been disabled, presumably because Amazon doesn't want to foot the data bill. There's also a 40% premium on books bought via the Amazon store. 'International customers do pay a higher price for their books than US customers due to higher operating costs outside of the US,' an Amazon spokesperson confessed."

Comments

Another troll summary?

[radish]

1) The browser is not a "key feature" - it's barely useable and not an advertised/supported feature anyway.
2) Calling the Amazon explanation a "confession" seems a little biased...sounds quite reasonable to me to charge more if their costs are higher.

Re:Another troll summary?

[blowdart]

OK what costs? Scanning/turning into an e-book? I'd bet that the vast majority of the offered titles are the same as they offer in the US, and processed/made in the US (or wherever it gets outsourced to) - so there's no extra cost there? Hosting could be an additional cost, Amazon do have a data centre in Dublin, London and Frankfurt, but bandwidth isn't that much more expensive here. Tax? Well perhaps, although books tend not to be taxed in the UK - who knows how ebooks will be treated though. Or it's the typical US move of take the dollar price and convert it to pounds or euros by changing the currency symbol.

Re:Another troll summary?

[chadenright]

Logically speaking, why would their operating costs be any higher? They aren't actually shipping books around--they're shipping data. And that data is probably hosted on the same servers, maybe even the same bits as their US products.

A more reasonable explanation, in my opinion, is that pictures are being stripped and the internet locked down so they aren't liable under chinese law for anyone who evades the eWall of China. And they're charging more because they think they can get away with charging more, leading to higher profits.

That would be like me putting a download on my site and saying "If you live in the US, click HERE so I can charge you $10 usd. If you do not live in the US, click HERE so I can charge you $14 usd."

Re:Another troll summary?

[sznupi]

Regarding 1), free wiki acess anywhere seems really nice. I guess that falls under "disabling web browser" also?

Oh well; no Kindle for me then.

Re:Another troll summary?

[rodrigoandrade]

Not to mention exchange rates and associated taxes in foreign countries, which vary from country to country.

Slow news day, I guess.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Red Flayer]

2) Calling the Amazon explanation a "confession" seems a little biased...sounds quite reasonable to me to charge more if their costs are higher.

No offense, but if you accept that explanation, you're one of the suckers their PR people spew that line for. That's not why they are charging more. Prices are set based upon maximizing profitability, not based on "cost + some acceptable profit margin".

They've made the determination that they'll make more money selling overseas at a higher price (even if they sell fewer units). Their "higher costs" explanation is just a standard explanation for "we're going to charge more in a certain market because we've determined that's how we'll make the most money".

Re:Another troll summary?

[toppavak]

Its particularly odd that they would strip the browser citing costs when mobile internet access outside of the US is so much cheaper!

Re:Another troll summary?

[eldavojohn]

OK what costs? Scanning/turning into an e-book?

I think distributions rights get really complicated across regions and countries. If someone owns the rights to digital distributions or all distributions of a work, Amazon's probably got to pay them a premium for their market. Just look at DVDs, I can't even by "Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence" in the states. I would imagine selection would be vastly hobbled for several reasons across different countries. And let's not forget Germany's regulation of book prices "in an effort to protect authors, publishers, and small booksellers." There could be a lot of factors at work here--most of which are specific to a single country.

Re:Another troll summary?

[grimJester]

Not to mention exchange rates and associated taxes in foreign countries, which vary from country to country.

Yes, since the average non-US currency is valued 40% lower than the USD it makes sense to price your product 40% higher abroad and charge the same number regardless of currency. This is why everything in Kuwait is so expensive and Italy had really low prices before they joined the euro.

Re:Another troll summary?

[yamfry]

There may be a significant cost in converting from Letter size to A4.

Re:Another troll summary?

[MightyMartian]

It's amazing they let you cross borders with books in your possession. "I'm sorry, senior, but your copy of HP Lovecraft's Best is still under copyright in our country, we will have to seize it, fine you ten million pesos. As well, we see this is the third time you have tried to cross the border in such a fashion. Last time it was Shakespeare's Portfolio, which we explained to you was owned by Sony Bono's widow, and before that it was Homer's Iliad, which the Walt Disney Corporation has filed ownership for. Since this is your third violation, you will no longer be permitted to read books. Please lean back while I gouge your eyes out.,,"

What a moronic and ludicrous world IP law has created.

Re:Another troll summary?

[b0bby]

Tax? Well perhaps, although books tend not to be taxed in the UK - who knows how ebooks will be treated though.

TFA says that EU taxes on ebooks are higher than paper books; if it's like most other VAT that's 20% right there, your $10 book becomes $12.

Re:Another troll summary?

[harlows_monkeys]

Logically speaking, why would their operating costs be any higher? They aren't actually shipping books around--they're shipping data. And that data is probably hosted on the same servers, maybe even the same bits as their US products

The data is essentially delivered by cell phone. They are using AT&T's international roaming service for the international Kindle, and that costs a lot.

Re:Another troll summary?

[amicusNYCL]

What a moronic and ludicrous world IP law has created.

IP law didn't create the world you're describing, you did.

Re:Another troll summary?

[hattig]

You would think that in certain territories they would come to an arrangement with a native provider.

Going with AT&T is strange. T-Mobile, Vodafone, Telefonica, Three all have large international networks and one of these would be a far more logical provider for Europe than AT&T.

Instead they're going to make the product worthless and expensive.

Re:Another troll summary?

[MankyD]

It's not IP Law. It's marketing and, as frustrating as the end result is, it is completely reasonable in the bigger picture. If a product maker wants to sell their product for different prices in different places, then by all means, go for it. Furthermore, if an product maker needs to translate or in some other way localize their product for international markets, then that adds costs. There's nothing inherently wrong with adjusting your product for the market your selling in.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Again]

What a moronic and ludicrous world IP law has created.

IP law didn't create the world you're describing, you did.

In fact, you own it! And now if I wanted to create a similar story you could sue me. Wow, this is cool!

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK what costs? Scanning/turning into an e-book?

Dude! Have you ever tried turning an English book into Engrish?

Oh, they already speak English? Hrm, well, I guess then they'd have to create a "Ministry of Funny Spellings and Pronunciations" for words like 'color' and 'schedule.'

No? Ok, I'll leave.

Re:Another troll summary?

[MobyDisk]

Pardon me for being horribly American here, but... there the EU has a a tax on books? Why?
(Yes, I know I pay taxes on books indirectly via sales taxes)

Re:Another troll summary?

[Red Flayer]

What?

The Euro is valued over 40% higher than the dollar. The reason you keep the number price the same (unit-less) is because then you make more money on the sales in countries with more valuable currency, because (and this is the key aspect) people are willing to pay that price. That is it.

This is why everything in Kuwait is so expensive and Italy had really low prices before they joined the euro.

Currency exchange rates are only one small factor in the price differences, in USD, between Italy (pre EU), Kuwait, and anywhere else. It's a complex valuation between currencies which includes factors like money supply in each of the countries, GDP, local wage rates, and a host of other factors.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are using the wrong carrier. For my GPS trackers I'm using Jasper wireless services and the cost is less than AT&T in the US and the cards work globally.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Late Adopter]

No offense, but if you accept that explanation, you're one of the suckers their PR people spew that line for. That's not why they are charging more. Prices are set based upon maximizing profitability, not based on "cost + some acceptable profit margin".

I agree with your post in entirety, but I'll take it a step farther and say "Who cares?" Different markets are different. Amazon doesn't owe you an explanation as to why it's "fair". You either take them up on their offer or not.

Non-story.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, but they have an agreement with a US carrier that was negotiated at [flat] lower rates in exchange for exclusivity. Unless/until they have such a deal overseas, the market rates may still be higher.

Re:Another troll summary?

[discogravy]

So they can't pony up for some servers in europe and an agreement w/ a euro cell carrier? sounds like bad planning or a bullshit song-and-dance to rake in the $.

Re:Another troll summary?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I'm just wondering how long it will be before somebody writes up a little program that automates the process of using wikipedia to "launder" material from the broader internet through wikipedia for free Kindle access.

Since anybody can edit wikipedia, you could easily stash a URL on some obscure page. This program, running on a computer with a real ISP, would be watching for edits made by you, and would respond to them by retrieving the requested URL, reformatting it, and posting that as a subsequent edit. The wikipedia guys would presumably crack down if it occurred on a wide scale; but a few geek enthusiasts, particularly if they cleaned up the edits used after they were finished, could probably fly under the radar for a good while.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pardon me for being horribly American here, but... there the EU has a a tax on books? Why?
(Yes, I know I pay taxes on books indirectly via sales taxes)

Well you've just answered your own question, haven't you? The EU has a tax on books because everything is taxed by default under a VAT, unless a country creates a specific exemption - for example the UK exempts medical devices and most foods, among many other things.

Re:Another troll summary?

[petermgreen]

Pardon me for being horribly American here, but... there the EU has a a tax on books?
The EU has a tax on almost all products sold called VAT. It's similar to a sales tax though the details differ.

VAT rates are allowed to vary across the EU within certain limits and some product categories in some countries attract rates lower than the standard rate for that country.

Books generally get a reduced or sometimes even zero rate but this then requires a definition of what counts as a book. IIRC the rules on that vary by country.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Malc]

So if I'm in the UK, why won't they let me buy content for the Kindle from the US? That's right, because they want to charge higher prices.

I spent five months in Australia earlier this year. The book market there is out of control, and I ended buying from Amazon.co.uk because it was cheaper to have them shipped from the other side of the planet. For example, the Lonely Planet guide to New Zealand was $45 in Australia. It cost me $37, include $15-20 shipping to get it from the UK. That's disgusting. Amazon I think would like to be able to enforce higher prices.

Re:Another troll summary?

[phantomfive]

What on earth makes you think they can make an agreement w/ a euro cell carrier that is cheaper? Why on earth do you think they didn't try? I'll bet you don't even have a Kindle, don't want one, and just like to complain about evil corporations.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Malc]

Don't you remember the story a year or two ago about people importing real books from the UK in to the US, because they are cheaper in the UK (especially for university books).

Re:Another troll summary?

[phantomfive]

It's a common misconception, but if that were true, then Japan would have super-cheap prices, because the Yen is super cheap. But they don't: things in Japan tend to be expensive.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Jace Harker]

It's amazing they let you cross borders with books in your possession.

The problem is not crossing a border with a book you already own. The problem, for Amazon, is having the rights to sell a book in a different country. Plus higher wireless costs. Plus VAT. All in all, I'm surprised the price is bump is as small as 40%.

PC Pro has discovered. ... an Amazon spokesperson confessed.

The OP summary is quite a troll. PC Pro hasn't "discovered" anything: all of this information was easy to find on the International Kindle website the day it was announced.

Re:Another troll summary?

[amoeba1911]

It's the cost of the cell phone network. Obviously they couldn't get a cheap data plan in Europe so they have to disable things that use bandwidth and charge more for the necessary parts. There's no mystery here, there's no book tax, it's not the cost of converting from anything. It's just European cell phone companies rip off Amazon just because they can.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure how it is now, but there was a point where you could get some new textbooks for cheaper by simply buying from amazon's UK site instead of its US site. And by cheaper I mean you still payed less considering shipping and the conversion rate.

Then the dollar started going to shit, making it more expensive because of the conversion rate.

Re:Another troll summary?

[mrboyd]

Strangely amazon has absolutely zero issue shipping hardcopy book to Europe when I buy from the US store.

Re:Another troll summary?

[bertoelcon]

They use AT&T in the device though.

Re:Another troll summary?

[MooUK]

In the UK, hard copy books are exempt from VAT (sales tax). As I understand it, ebooks are not exempt. That's an immediate 15% (normally 17.5%, but we had a temporary cut for some obscure reason) on top of the price.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Fizzol]

Also, this wasn't a "discovery." This was all announced and well known to anyone who bothered to read the information Amazon provided on launch day.

Re:Another troll summary?

[peragrin]

really? kindle one used the sprint network for books.

Now if only they used wifi data could be cheap across regions.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

The pound has gone to shit too.

Re:Another troll summary?

[MobyDisk]

Ahh, okay, that makes sense. It sounded like ebooks had a specific tax on them or something strange like that.

Re:Another troll summary?

[pdabbadabba]

The laws governing sale of a good in a jurisdiction are generally different from the laws regarding possession of that good. How is this moronic and ludicrous?

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Licensing books in different regions is incredibly complicated.
2. Allying with one carrier that operates in all areas results in extremely expensive data bills. (AT&T)

It's funny to watch the armchair CEOs on slashdot, especially when you're an industry insider.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except VAT, unlike sales tax, is not applicable to books. Where did you get your facts from?

Re:Another troll summary?

[Dogtanian]

Different markets are different. Amazon doesn't owe you an explanation as to why it's "fair". You either take them up on their offer or not.

While you're correct that the public can accept or reject Amazon's offer, your implication that they don't have the right to discuss or criticise it as they're doing here is wrong.

The public don't owe Amazon the right to have them STFU and not discuss the merits and/or reasons behind their offer. Amazon have the right not to sell the product in the first place if they (or you) don't like it being discussed.

Re:Another troll summary?

[DrXym]

The data is essentially delivered by cell phone. They are using AT&T's international roaming service for the international Kindle, and that costs a lot.

Then offer users the choice of tethered purchases that cost the same or wireless purchases that cost 40% more. The excuses Amazon are coming out with are complete bollocks.

In some respect this bullshit is a good thing since it may open some people's eyes to the benefits of an open format ereader, one that allows you to switch retailers at will rather than be at the whim of one retailer forever.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

There may be a significant cost in converting from Letter size to A4.

Excellent. Please provide an address where I can purchase my A4-sized Kindle.

Re:Another troll summary?

[sjames]

Fine and dandy, if they want to localize the product, but the interlocking laws and technical measures to enforce regionalized sales is over the top. There's nothing inherently wrong with adjusting the product for different markets, but there's nothing wrong with people going to those other markets to get a better deal either (but there can be legal trouble thanks to bought off legislators).

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why fine someone $1.98 U.S.? As to the publishing costs of an ebook, there are practically none at all...since all books are either written on a computer, or typed into a computer at some point before they are published. So an ebook should cost very much less than even a paperback book. No more than $1.00 to $2.00 for the consumer. And ebook readers are vastly overpriced also...the price will have to come down to under $50.00 U.S. befor I will consider one. AND ebooks will have to be available in NON-DRMed formatsfor about the prices listed above

Current prices for both ebooks and ebook readers are a very large ripoff!!

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the UK, books are taxed at 0%.

Ebooks, however, are considered a service, not a book, and taxed at 15%.

Re:Another troll summary?

[dakameleon]

Kindle still does - it's Barnes & Nobel's Nook that uses AT&T.

Re:Another troll summary?

[sixsixtysix]

yet another reason for global licensing. hasn't the internet solved this bullshit yet?

Re:Another troll summary?

[sznupi]

I seem to remember one of the explanations for delay in international Kindle launch was "negotiating with carriers" (isn't it still used by Amazon somewhere?)

But for roaming you don't need any negotiations, AT&T already did those...so is it really roaming what international Kindle uses? Or did Amazon choose such terms?

Also, with competition between carriers much higher in the EU, with much better prices, and with a low bandwith device like Kindle, one would guess Amazon would be able to find carriers willing to offer service like for US Kindles... (I can certainly name one in my country: with a prepaid account active for 1 year after any recharge, and also prepaid 5GB for around $15...what is a Kindle?)

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I work at Amazon, as I suspect you do too from your last comment.

I can't say anything of course, so I'll just call everyone complaining an idiot and rest it at that.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon has tried dynamic pricing before - ie price a book depending on how much (more) they think you'll pay. So if you 'tend' to buy books at a higher price, then expect all future books to have an incrementally higher price than a 'guest user'.
now they're doing it again for ebooks.

Re:Another troll summary?

[st0nes]

Fine and dandy, if they want to localize the product

Except that they don't. They're too lazy even to provide a 220v power supply for jurisdictions which use 220v, anyone who is fool enough to buy one is expected to provide their own adapter.

Re:Another troll summary?

[MightyMartian]

But there's something inherently wrong in a consumer seeking out the cheapest price?

Re:Another troll summary?

[Eivind]

The EU isn't a country. Different nations have different taxes. Some require VAT to be paid on books, and others don't. (here in Norway, there's no VAT on books, nor any other tax)

Re:Another troll summary?

[clickety6]

OK what costs? Scanning/turning into an e-book? I'd bet that the vast majority of the offered titles are the same as they offer in the US

All those extra U's in the UK English version don't come for free you know!

Re:Another troll summary?

[phaggood]

> 40% premium on books

In the comments section at one of the Nook review sites (Barnes & Noble's reader) there was a complaint that their ebooks cost more than Amazon, in some cases 40-50%. Since B&N has got to meet or exceed Amazon's heft in the book industry, my only guess is that Amazon is was able to swing a deal of iPhone-like proportions with their primary US cell carrier, thus their book prices have to subsidize less of the transmission cost than B&N. Personally, if I could save 50% of the book cost simply by hooking my reader to the usb port on my wifi laptop it'd be worth it. Books for me just aren't an impulse buy (gotta have it NOW!) more of a planned purchase (that's a good book he just mentioned, I'll put it on my list).

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

VAT is a tax on luxury items - everything bar food and clothing I believe. Its the same as sales tax in the States no?

Re:Another troll summary?

[lightversusdark]

Mod Parent Up. I hadn't heard of Jasper Wireless before, but I have been looking for an international roaming data solution and they seem impressive.

Re:Another troll summary?

[Anonymous Coward]

What about VAT?

Selling ebooks in Europe especially *simply costs more* because of VAT and data charges among other things. This isn't an example of Amazon trying to screw customers. It really does cost them more money to sell this stuff around the world.

Partially hobbled...

[Anonymous Coward]

... is still better than unavailable, which is the current state of the Kindle here in Canada (we don't even get the "International" version)

Re:Partially hobbled...

[Anonymous Coward]

... is still better than unavailable, which is the current state of the Kindle here in Canada (we don't even get the "International" version)

What part of "Third World Nation Axis of Evil" do you Nucks not understand?

Re:Partially hobbled...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't throw those stones in your glass house. You still have Harper running the show up in the "Great White North", eh?

Re:Partially hobbled...

[Anonymous Coward]

... is still better than unavailable, which is the current state of the Kindle here in Canada (we don't even get the "International" version)

What part of "Third World Nation Axis of Evil" do you Nucks not understand?

A perfect example of why inbreeding is horrible. I dont care if your wife/sister is out of town, stop screwing your mom (she is a bad lay anyways)* and read a book for once.

*honestly stolen from Bo

Re:Partially hobbled...

[Anonymous Coward]

Be nice. It helps to translate it into Canadian for them. For example, your comment becomes "What part of "Third World Nation Axis of Evil" do you Nucks not understand, eh?" Nuances like that help avoid misunderstanding.

That's alright.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll just point the Kindle at the American servers and get the same low price, right? It's a fantastic thing this Internet, you can put your service where it's the cheapest, and the WHOOOLLE wide world can reach you there, incurring no operational costs anywhere else.

Now, some smartass is going to mention taxes. Okay, I'm in europe and our tax on books is 6% .. explain how we go from 6% to 40% higher prices?

Re:That's alright.

[Anonymous Coward]

The wireless service contract is through a US carrier.... the roaming connection charges are insane.

I've seen my bill after traveling in europe... the euro carriers really enjoy putting 2-3 euro per text message fees for foreign phones. Had outlook exchange sync on my phone and got a $500 bill for 5 days of roaming. (less than 3 mb of data transfer)

Re:That's alright.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, it wouldn't be a "foreign phone" if it was used by a native here, and it doesn't even involve Amazon in any way. I have free and unlimted data on my iphone, yes, even though it's an american product. Imagine that! What do you think happens if I go to the US and try the same thing? I'd rack up $500 in five seconds. That has nothing to do with ebook-readers, that's about corrupt telecom.

If for some reason I'd want to connect my ebook-reader to the cellphone-net (WHY?!) I would of course use my existing SIM-card or if I was really keen, get another one with good rates. Again, this doesn't even involve Amazon in any way. Their servers are still on the fucking INTERNET not some cellnet

Re:That's alright.

[jgardia]

Sorry, but the one charging you that is your provider in the US. Within Europe, the roaming charges have a lega limit (per mb, minute or sms). Even when I was using my chilean phone in Germany I ended up paying a reasonable amount (~US$200 for 3 weeks). I think you are pointing your darts at the wrong place...

Re:That's alright.

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole point of the kindle is that it has wireless GSM access built in.... and sadly you can't change it to a local Euro carrier. There is no SIM card to swap. Nice try, though.

Re:That's alright.

[_merlin]

The whole point of the kindle is that it has wireless GSM access built in.... and sadly you can't change it to a local Euro carrier. There is no SIM card to swap. Nice try, though.

If that's true (I don't know whether it is), then it violates the GSM standard and European open access regulations - to promote competition, you aren't allowed to sell GSM devices in Europe that don't have swappable SIM cards. (The US version is CDMA, and doesn't have a SIM card, but that's not what we're talking about here.)

Re:That's alright.

[Anonymous Coward]

By definition GSM devices have an exchangeable SIM card. Amazon have elected to make it not accessible to the user.

Re:That's alright.

[dangitman]

The whole point of the kindle is that it has wireless GSM access built in....

I thought the whole point of it was to read books. I'm not sure why that would require any sort of wireless access.

Higher Costs outside the USA?

[RotateLeftByte]

That is Marketing Droid speak for

Lets screw everyone else.

I fail to understand the reasoning for this in places where Amazon already has a huge operation (eg UK)

Ah well, If they screw us up so much then people will find a way to get, sorry pirate or hack the US Editions and then watch Amazon cry fould as the whole thing is a mega flop just like the Zune is outside the US.(just an example)

When will the so called international companies really view the world as one big market and 'do the right thing'.

I certainly won't be buying one of these. I urge others to boycott them until the functionality is restored.

 

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[h4rr4r]

The Zune is a huge flop inside the U.S. as well.

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[OzPeter]

That is Marketing Droid speak for

Lets screw everyone else.

No .. this is fundamental capitalism for lets see how much the market can bear

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[gEvil (beta)]

The Zune is a huge flop inside the U.S. as well.

Informative? This seems more like a candidate for an 'Obvious' mod.

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[John Hasler]

> When will the so called international companies really view the world as one
> big market and 'do the right thing'.

Perhaps when governments do likewise?

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Repeat these two sentences until you can draw a conclusion from them:

'International customers do pay a higher price for their books than US customers due to higher operating costs outside of the US'
I fail to understand the reasoning for this in places where Amazon already has a huge operation (eg UK)

Hint: huge operation = higher operating costs. There's a FAIL here all right...oh wait, I see you even say "I fail" too! Well OK then.

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[harlows_monkeys]

I fail to understand the reasoning for this in places where Amazon already has a huge operation (eg UK)

That's because you fail to understand how the device operates. It uses a connection to the cell phone network to receive data. In the US, Amazon has a deal with Sprint to use the Sprint wireless data network. For the international Kindle, they have a deal to use AT&T's wireless data network. When used outside the US, this incurs roaming charges.

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

"international Kindle" ...

"used outside the US, this incurs roaming charges"

-->

FAIL.

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the iPhone bought in the UK uses the AT&T data network in the US to receive data then?

Rubbish.

Amason could easily sign up with a LOCAL (remember Vodafone is a UK based company) mobile phone network to use their data network.

I remain convinced that this will fail in the UK.

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[harlows_monkeys]

And the iPhone bought in the UK uses the AT&T data network in the US to receive data then?

What does that have to do with Amazon's choice of wireless carrier?

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

When will they view the world as "one big market"?

Probably around the time it actually is...

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is Marketing Droid speak for Lets screw everyone else.

Actually it's cosmic karma balance for what Americans pay for pharma stuff.

We pay the highest possible prices for drugs because the congresspussies accept big pharma's whining about, "We have to pay for research. Anything less will put us out in the street."

But lots of countries regulate drug prices -- this price and no more. So the pharma outfits knuckle under and sell at the dictated price. Most likely still making handsome profits, because those prices are 95% air.

Then they go to yet other countries and give it away free "for humanitarian reasons".

So we USians get cheap Kindle books "for humanitarian reasons", I guess.

Re:Higher Costs outside the USA?

[EdZ]

It means that if Amazon is indeed using a roaming system instead of localised carries, they are incredibly foolish.

A market for middle men?

[maillemaker]

What is to stop someone from buying "American" book and reselling them to European customers for, say, only a 10% markup?

Oh, let me guess - no interoperability / not an open format.

Re:A market for middle men?

[Zerth]

Nothing, as long as you use a web proxy in the US for downloading and don't expect the wireless to work on a different cell network.

Re:A market for middle men?

[BZ]

Put that way, nothing except the fact that it's likely to not be profitable. Given a US price P (always excluding sales tax) and a VAT of 15-25% depending on the EU country (applies to e-books in most of them; must typically be included in the price by law) you have to charge somewhere between 1.15*P and 1.25*P just to break even.

So 10% markup in the list price would be a loss. 20% would be about break-even, if we assume a 20% VAT. A 10% increase in what the seller gets would mean a 32% markup in the list price given that same 20% VAT.

Re:A market for middle men?

[smoker2]

What has the US price got to do with it ? The US price is the US price including their profit. It's not like they have to buy any more copies to sell in the EU. So you're suggesting they are making profit on their US profit ? Sales tax in the US is VAT in the EU. Wouldn't surprise me if they just added more on for the hell of it. Shame it'll sink without trace.

Plus you don't pay vat on second hand goods so if you're reselling you shouldn't be charging it.

Re:A market for middle men?

[Zerth]

There is no sales tax unless you are in the same state as Amazon, unlike VAT.

Done singly you could get away without charging VAT, but I imagine customs would notice after awhile.

Re:A market for middle men?

[BZ]

> What has the US price got to do with it ?

The whole point of the article is that the UK list price is 40% more than the US list price.

> The US price is the US price including their profit.

Right.

> It's not like they have to buy any more copies to sell in the EU.

That depends on the licensing terms.

Also, the operating expenses (e.g. the data connection for the kindle) remain and might not be priced the same in the EU.

> Sales tax in the US is VAT in the EU.

Sort of, except that the list price (which is what the article is about) includes the VAT and doesn't include sales tax. And there are more differences in the details (see below).

> Wouldn't surprise me if they just added more on for the hell of it.

Sure could be! It's just hard to say without going through their costs in detail, and the _definitely_ didn't add on 40%.

> Plus you don't pay vat on second hand goods

This is true if the original good had the VAT paid on it. However, if the good was bought outside the country (or the EU, in the EU case) and then imported, VAT is owed at the moment of import (unlike sales tax, which is owed at the moment of purchase only). The whole point of a VAT is that it only gets charged once (unlike sales tax, which is why VAT rates are higher), but it DOES get charged. Note that it also typically gets refunded if you export the good after purchasing (again, unlike a sales tax).

Re:A market for middle men?

[BZ]

> There is no sales tax unless you are in the same state as Amazon, unlike VAT.

True, but doesn't matter much for the point of the argument, since the US list price doesn't include the sales tax no matter what, and the article is comparing list prices.

> Done singly you could get away without charging VAT, but I imagine customs would notice
> after awhile.

I'd think so. ;)

Amazon Offers Refund!

[starrsoft]

Amazon sent out an email this morning to people who bought an International Kindle (mine arrived yesterday) informing them that they had dropped the price by $20 and would be applying a $20 refund to my credit card. With this kind of customer service, I buy even my groceries from Amazon these days; no need to venture outside. I suspect that this is also fighting back against the Nook.

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[Anonymous Coward]

So fighting back against a newer more feature full product is to cut features from your own product and charge more for it. Okay. I guess the Amazon shills have mod points today too.

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[smoker2]

corporate cocksucker.

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[aceofspades1217]

The nook does look pretty snazzy if you ask me. Amazon really needs to step up there game or the good ol' invisible hand will smack amazon in the face :P

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[PitaBred]

The Nook still seems like a better deal to me, even without the web browser.

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[starrsoft]

The Kindle International edition was announced far before the Nook was announced. In fact, the release of the GSM Kindle was only a few days after the announcement of the Nook. So the features of the GSM Kindle were determined far before the Nook was announced. The price drop was done after the Nook was announced.

Furthermore, the article linked is only talking about the GSM Kindle in the UK. The GSM Kindle I have lets me use web surfing in the US without a problem.

Fundamentally, the issue here is not feature hobbling, it's airtime charges. At this point, Amazon seems to only be using a contract with AT&T for international roaming, which is absurdly expensive. Hopefully, Amazon will forge contracts directly with GSM providers across the globe and be able to afford to enable web surfing and book downloads without a surcharge. Right now a US-based customer can download books overseas, over-the-air for US prices, but has a $2.99 delivery surcharge because of the extra roaming charges Amazon has to pay. (Books can be downloaded to PC and loaded via USB at normal US Kindle prices.)

As it is, lifetime unlimited web surfing over US GSM & CDMA networks for the price of a device purchase is an unheard of bargain and a big profitability risk/experiment for Amazon. To do that worldwide with exorbitant roaming rates is unthinkable.

(Yes, I dislike Amazon's walled garden. Yes, I wish it was more open. Yes, I'm delighted that the Nook came out and is providing competition. But the Kindle was/is still an excellent, ground-breaking device that is setting all kinds of precedents.)

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[cdrguru]

I seriously doubt Amazon will be doing anything involving multiple carriers with any version of the Kindle.

The software would need to be "localized" or "individualized", or at the very least some configuration would need to be done based on what carrier was to be connected to. This would be a huge pain that today virtually does not exist.

I can take a unlocked GSM phone to Australia and in five minutes have a SIM card on a prepaid plan. The connection to the carrier is controlled by inserting the SIM card. OK, I guess the Kindle could use a SIM card for the purpose - they would just have to send the proper SIM card with each and every Kindle shipped. Unlikely that this would be an error-free process even if Amazon decided to try it, which I doubt.

The problem is finding one carrier so they can embed the carrier information into the device once and not have to configure each device individually for each customer. Or require the customer to spend 30 minutes with their new Kindle to connect it with the appropriate carrier.

They aren't going to do anything except go with a single carrier worldwide. Yes, it is going to cost more than enabling the device to use 300 different carriers, but it will be a lot saner for both Amazon and their customers.

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[fafaforza]

The only cool feature with the Nook is that LCD on the bottom. It would have been perfect to load up a keyboard onto that thing to let you annotate, and look up words in the dictionary, but I haven't heard about it having such a feature.

Only lame book cover previews and setting menus. You'll still be staring at eInt 99% of the time, and that isn't different than the Kindles, and books at B&N's ebook store are reportedly much more expensive.

Re:Amazon Offers Refund!

[freedom_india]

Nook will give Kindle a run for its money, only if BN is not stupid enough to limit it to US.
Unfortunately, corporations have an innate act for stupidity.
So BN is running an also-ran product into a market saturated and broke.
Good luck BN.
You have a great product, but you are stupid.

Legitmate conversion costs

[Anonymous Coward]

The books need to be converted from the NTSC format that America uses to the inferior PAL system that European books use.

Re:Legitmate conversion costs

[gEvil (beta)]

The books need to be converted from the NTSC format that America uses to the inferior PAL system that European books use.

So the Europeans will get one-sixth more words and deeper blacks in their books?

Re:Legitmate conversion costs

[Anonymous Coward]

and dirty 50hz strobe

Re:Legitmate conversion costs

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Europaean flavours of the raeder just have moure colourful language.

Re:Legitmate conversion costs

[Anonymous Coward]

I look forward to rereading Malcolm X on the international Kindle.

Do not buy Kindle

[TheDarkMaster]

Why figth against a stupid corp like Amazon, if you can simply use real books (no DRM here, you can give then to your friends, sell, etc) or use a better - and open - option like one netbook with PDF reader? For me, Kindle is a expensive and useless toy.

Re:Do not buy Kindle

[amicusNYCL]

For me, Kindle is an expensive and useless toy.

Oh, then it must be true for everyone. That's probably exactly why the original Kindle sold out in five and a half hours and was out of stock for the next five months, because it's expensive and useless.

Also, if you think that a small laptop with a PDF reader is a replacement for Kindle (let alone "better"), you're out of touch. Do some research into how Kindle accesses content online (hint: there's no wifi, and there's no ethernet). Also, I'd like to see your netbook spend four days between battery charges while online, or two weeks while offline.

Re:Do not buy Kindle

[Colonel Korn]

Why figth against a stupid corp like Amazon, if you can simply use real books (no DRM here, you can give then to your friends, sell, etc) or use a better - and open - option like one netbook with PDF reader? For me, Kindle is a expensive and useless toy.

This comes up with every Kindle article, and I tend to respond. A netbook, or anything else with a backlight, can't compete with a Kindle's readability. Of course there are other ebook readers, and there are also paper books, but the Kindle really is quite useful if you travel and want to bring a lot to read. Also, if you want to only read free (as in beer or speech, your choice) material you can do so on the Kindle. The DX, at least, reads pdfs without any conversion, and both versions read txt and several non-Amazon ebook formats.

Re:Do not buy Kindle

[TheDarkMaster]

You have problem with I dislike the Kindle idea? Ohh... so sorry. You may like to be vendor-locked and use a device that can kill your content on vendor command, but I not.

(and as a note, My sig is not decorative. I do not like write and read in english, And I do not care if you dislikes this with your "correted to you".)

Re:Do not buy Kindle

[fafaforza]

You were comparing the Kindle to a laptop on _reading_ _experience_, not content control, so let's separate those two. eInk readers have significant advantages over a laptop or tablet.

But turning to content control, are books free on the PC? Do you get access to the latest releases DRM-free? Free to copy and paste into plain text? To lend to anyone? No? Books have the same amount of owner control as on the Kindle?

Well, then, I guess it's the usability that's really important here, isn't it?

And no one has a problem with you disliking the Kindle. People could take issue with your statement that the Kindle is useless universally, as if it were some truth written in stone.

Re:Do not buy Kindle

[amicusNYCL]

You have a problem that I dislike the Kindle idea? Ohh... so sorry. You may like to be vendor-locked and use a device that can kill your content on vendor command, but I do not.

(and as a note, My sig is not decorative. I do not like to write and read in English, and I do not care if you dislike this with your "corrected to you".)

Fixed that for you.

I don't care what you like or what you don't like. But what I don't like is posts that say "don't buy this, it's useless, because I don't like it." It works just fine for plenty of people. It doesn't really matter if it works for everyone or not. There's not a single product in the history of the world that has worked great for everyone who's tried to use it.

Re:Do not buy Kindle

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, then it must be true for everyone. That's probably exactly why the original Kindle sold out in five and a half hours and was out of stock for the next five months, because it's expensive and useless.

Naah -- that's just because Amazon didn't do the right kind of market research.

The five Ps of success:

Proper Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.

Re:Do not buy Kindle

[xtracto]

I would love to have an ebook reader. But as I see it, right now we are at the time when the technology is just taking off.

I remember a couple of years ago when portable MP3 reproduction was taking off I was very eager to get one. I ended getting the iRiver SlimX imp350. It was really good, except that the batteries were non-standard. Of course I did have to pay a premium because it was the "state of the art".

Right now I am just waiting for ebook readers to go down in prices. Fujitsu just released the first color eink reader, and you can see lots of new brands spawning almost every month (B&N, Foxit, Amazon, etc...). From the reviews I have read, the best one (in terms of features for your money) is the Sony PRS-505. For me the Kindle is a a definite no no because it does not read PDFs (on its current versions) and the DX is more expensive.

But I imagine that in a year or 1.5 years we will be in the "sweet spot" of ebook reader offerings. And I will get one when they are "ready for the desktop" =oP.

Foreigners pay more for ebooks!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's backwards. Many of my students buy the international version of the textbook because it is less than half price.

No pictures! Imagine a circuits text with no pictures.

It's all just wrong. Fear not, other ebook readers will come along.

After all...

[rinoid]

Amazon did have to lay the cable across the oceans to deliver said books. You gotta pony up!

Well thanks Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

As an European, I was somewhat excited about an established eBook Readers finally coming to the rest of the world. I was on the brink of ordering a Kindle too. The fact that there are basically no non-english books in your store threw me off. Oh, and you didn't even bother to translate the menu.

This is the nail in the coffin. You obviously hope to sell some of your hardware to us for a lot of cash, without even trying. With slim to none effort, you hope to make a few bucks. Well, fuck you. We're not stupid, keep your overpriced bullshit, I'll wait until some vendor actually gives a shit about his customers.

Again, fuck you.

Re:Well thanks Amazon

[Evtim]

I concur. Also, supporting cyrilic alphabet seems to be very low priority. Well, more than 300 M people use it, so yhea f...k them!

Probably the same thing that's stopping Pandora.

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright issues.

Someone is lying here.

[Anonymous Coward]

So they disabled web browsing as well as images in newspaper/magazine because of higher infrastructure costs? If that's the case, then shouldn't Americans on average pay lower cell phone bills compared to Europeans (which is not the case).

This doesn't add up.

Circuits without text

[zippthorne]

Something like this, I imagine:

V0 1 0 AC 1 SIN(0V 1V 60HZ)
R1 1 2 470
C1 2 0 220 U

No ebook VAT in the UK

[ed]

books are not taxed, ebooks are treated as books

Re:No ebook VAT in the UK

[smoker2]

No they're not treated as books. Do you regularly make pronouncements on things you obviously know nothing about ? And the previous poster was talking shit too. VAT is currently 15% across most of Europe. And Amazon have decided to use AT&Ts global roaming network to provide the data link to Kindles. Why use a US based company with extortionate rates and peering costs when there are cheaper options already in place in the EU ? Total fail.

Re:No ebook VAT in the UK

[Marcika]

No they're not treated as books. Do you regularly make pronouncements on things you obviously know nothing about ? And the previous poster was talking shit too. VAT is currently 15% across most of Europe. And Amazon have decided to use AT&Ts global roaming network to provide the data link to Kindles. Why use a US based company with extortionate rates and peering costs when there are cheaper options already in place in the EU ? Total fail.

And obviously you are regularly making pronouncements on things you know nothing about, too. Since I know for a fact the VAT is quite a bit higher than 15% in 99.7% of the EU (everywhere except for Cyprus and Luxembourg), I tend to disbelieve your rather confident statement about the tax treatment of e-books as well.

Re:No ebook VAT in the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

Calm down the both of you.

UK tax treatment of e-books is that they're software, and thus liable for VAT, unlike books, children's clothes, etc etc, which are exempt.

Now, you might take umbrage at that classification, but that's how it is in the UK.

As for rates: VAT is 15% in the UK at the moment, and next year will return to 17.5% (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/forms-rates/rates/rate-changes.htm). Somehow, even with the problems the UK economy is going through, I doubt it represents only 0.3% of the EU.

Re:No ebook VAT in the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

VAT is currently 15% across most of Europe.

Fantastic! It was 17% when I was in Ireland in 1986. Glad to see such progress in lowering tax rates.

Re:No ebook VAT in the UK

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Ebooks are treated as services, and as such taxed.

yet their PAPER books are the same price

[petes_PoV]

On Amazon's websites: War and Peace, same edition, UK and US prices. Penguin Classics (paperback) in the US this is sold for $10.88 with free delivery. In the UK the price is £7.12 with free delivery. Using an exchange rate of $1.60 to the £, the prices are certainly not 40% different.

So why do I get the feeling I am being lied to?

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[kramerd]

You feel like you are being lied to for 2 reasons:
1) You went into the conversation looking to be lied to, so you found a reason to believe it.
2) You don't understand the difference between paperback and electronic books.

While I am going to go ahead and ignore the fact that you chose one price point from one website for one book for one currency exchange rate at one point in time and then tried to claim that prices in a different medium for all products at all times in all currencies must also be the similiar (Ok, I didn't ignore it, but what are you being lied to about if I'm not spot on, what are you being lied to about?), I will briefly explain why this is irrelevant (without approaching those issues).

While I am simplifying here,

The costs for a paperback book include obtaining the copyight, printing the books, point of sale costs (either website or cashier in a physical store), and royalties on sales. If the book doesn't sell well, you may have warehousing costs, but these are sold through websites or to bookstores that do sell a lot and need JIT inventory, which actually lowers your cost of goods sold.

The copyright, royalties, and POS costs (if website) are relatively fixed. The POS costs and printing costs are negligible due to volume. Therefore, a book that costs $4 to sell, even if stored for 50 years, is not going to go up in cost. Of course, after a long period of time, you just make a new edition, and people buy an old book again.

Electronic books, on the other hand, have additional costs. Since you arent printing a specific number of books, but rather you are keeping a master copy on a server that needs encryption and protection against non-sales, the cost of having one book for sale could be higher. You still have to obtain the copyright, pay royalties on sales, etc. Now you also have the cost of setting up user accounts so that when John Smith buys a book, he doesn't have to keep his downloaded book on his proprietary reader. He can keep it on his user account and redownload whenever he wants to read it. This would be negligible except that you are paying a per sold reading device, along with a per book sold fee for the network bandwidth. This is cheaper in the long run because some users buy the reader, then don't buy a lot of books.

Users, on the hand, find the value of an ebook reader beyond that of a paperback. If I buy 10000 books (not all at once, that would be silly) for my ebook reader, and it dies, I can get a new ebook reader and read all of my books within an hour (depending on traffic). If my house burns down, I cannot replace my books. The same editions are not necessarily available, I probably don't remember all of them, and I gurantee you I don't have $100000 lying around just to repurchase books. Then again, maybe I'm on the subway or at the airport or in the car on a roadtrip or at the hotel on a business trip or on vacation or standing in line at the post office or waiting in the parking lot to pick up my kids from school or just woke up the morning after and its awkward and I need a distraction or its cheaper because the book is brand new or my car is low on gas and I don't want to leave the house cause its raining and theres nothing on tv or [you really read all these examples, didn't you] and thus a bookstore is out of question because I want to read a new book immediately. Believe it or not, I'm willing to pay a premium for that and so are most people. In addition to immediate access to a book, you get access to far, far more titles than all of the bookstores in your city might carry. With the kindle,you get magazines and newspapers too.

Of course, to give users this useability, there are higher costs. Since the Kindle is based on a US service provider, international costs are quite reasonably higher. Since this is a servcie, and not just a book, it is possible that VAT bumps the higher cost even higher. I'm not going to bother to try to explain currency exchange to you, but suffice it say that people like books to cost them the same regardless of when they buy it, since age isnt a factor for ebooks, but exchange rates do change and the possibility of the dollar weakening is factored into the price.

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[base3]

All that argument aside, you still admit that an electronic, digital restrictions encumbered copy of a book with no effective way to exercise the right of first sale and tethered to what is effectively a fancy dongle costs just as much or more than the same book in good old-fashioned dead tree format. Where's my incentive to buy this again?

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[PitaBred]

I'm betting that they're trying to cover for the wireless fees, rather than the licensing stuff.

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[kramerd]

Of course I don't admit such a lie.

On the one hand,I wouldn't have thrown out the argument already presented that happens to provide an incentive despite what you perceive to be a price difference for purchasing ebooks (ease of use, availability, recoverability in device failure [dead tree book vs ebook reade], and subscription services).

On the other hand, some of your sentence is wrong, while some of it is irrelevant.

To begin with, the wrong. You can, of course, sell your device. Just log out, have the person you sold it to set up their account, and suddenly, they don't have access to your books anymore. Or sell them your library and don't log out, and cancel your credit card so they have to change the user information to buy new stuff. Meanwhile, you can use a proprietary reader or a cell phone reader or a reader on your computer (I assume one of those two is how you posted on /., so you either self tether yourself to the device or you aren't tethered to it).

To be fair, you can loan your ebooks to others, but just like with a dead tree book, you can't have access at the time. Either let them borrow your device, or log out of your device and have them log in as you on theirs. Voila, they can read your entire library.

Now for the points of relevance. Believe it or not, there is a difference between paperback and electronic form. If you sell a paperback book, the publisher has no requirement to keep track of this fact. If you sell an ebook, they have to unregister the sale from you and re-register the sale to someone else. They then have to transfer the ebook to a device for a new person. This of course, means they would have to treat this as a sale, without collecting money, which means they would have to pay royalties. Note that this is true even if you give a book away. Most royalties agreements are based on a combination of percentage of sales and number of copies sold. Since royalies are paid upon sale, they aren't going to get credit for the transfer. The only reason this isn't done with dead tree books is because it isn't possible.

To recap, there is a large incentive to buy ebooks, which is reflected in the difference in price between them and dead tree books. To claim that you specifically are immune to this incentive is a lie. If you want to say that the incentive doesn't break your threshold for purchase, I'm not going to be able to convince you, but no retailer is going to care about your niche, irrelevant complaints.

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[base3]

Yes, you did admit it (from your post):

Electronic books, on the other hand, have additional costs.

And being able to sell the device but not each book isn't the right of first sale.

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[kramerd]

Perhaps I did point out that electronic books contain additional costs. This point, however, is not a disincentive to purchase, for other reasons that I also highlighted.

I still hold that electronic distribution method of book sales, which have a method of resale restricted for valid purposes, are much more than just a fancy method of distribution for purpose of raising costs or that the added costs are a disincentive.

Cheaper is not the only function that goes into purchasing things.

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[base3]

Sure, it's not just for raising costs, it's also for eliminating the option to truly purchase a copy of a book. Fortunately, the pirates have our back--even the toughest digital restrictions management routine is no match for a person with good eyes and swift typing fingers, so that will set an upper limit on what the public will have to endure in terms of oppressive restrictions.

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[kramerd]

It is not an oppressive restriction to sell ebooks with drm. The solution to "I don't like drm" is not "pirate the book instead." Its "don't buy the book."

In other news, electronic versions of books do not prohibit you from going out and buying a dead tree version of a book. When the market for dead tree books is falling, and it can be shown that it is because of the existence of ebooks, then you might have a point. It still wouldn't be "pirate a book instead of buying it." It would be "buy it in a bookstore or a used bookstore or check it from the library or borrow it from someone else or do without."

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[base3]

I'm sure that's a nice argument for the shills and the DRM fanboys, but as long as the paper books exist, they'll be more desirable if for no other reason than lack of DRM and the preserved (enforceable--the moral right always exists absent a specific rental contract) right of first sale.

The publishers' desire for control will be what forces paper books out of the market, not consumer demand. I didn't specifically advocate piracy so spare me the "buy it or do without" tripe; I only pointed out that the pirates will produce a more desirable product should the publishers controls become too rapacious. Q.v. the music industry--do you think we would really be able to purchase MP3s without DRM infestation today had it not been for the pirates?

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[kramerd]

As long as paper books exist, they will be more desirable to a specific segment of the market, specifically those who wish to resell their books. For those of us who like to keep our books, (mostly those of us who don't buy books unless we want to keep them), an electronic format is more convenient and provides a better selection. Therefore paper books will be more desireable based on lack of drm or ability to resell them because they already aren't.

On a much more important point than you calling me names that add no value to your point (there arent any shills or fanboys rushing to attack you, so dont call them out, and if you arent referring to me, then dont mention them, and if you are calling me names, then you should have spent 30 seconds reading my others posts on /. and noticed that it simply wouldnt be true. I just happen to disagree that drm is the only factor to look at when buying things.), you have an interesting contradiction within the same paragraph.

So you think that publisher's desire for control will kill the paper book market, but that consumer demand caused publishers to provide drm free music.

I don't know how you can state these two things. If you said them a year apart, I would still question it. But you said them in the same paragraph.

To be fair, if you actively choose to purchase a book with drm in electronic form over a paper version, you arent being repressed, whether or not you consider yourself to be part of the public. On the other hand, pirates generally aren't doing what they do for the public good either. They don't "got your back." They do it for notoriety (thats 'popularity' for the sake of being well known, rather than being well liked).

 

Re:yet their PAPER books are the same price

[base3]

I didn't call you names--if you're referring to my reference to fanboys and shills, it wasn't directed at you, but it seems you think you resemble that remark. Anyway, you did start out by calling me a liar for using what you said. This discussion is over, because you would obviously rather engage in ad hominem than concede that you're wrong.

Then this should be true also:

[maillemaker]

[b]There's nothing inherently wrong with adjusting your product for the market your selling in.[/b]

Then there should be nothing inherently wrong with me buying a product in any market available to me to buy from.

Thats Ok

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not buying one anyhow.

Wow really?

[aceofspades1217]

Was amazon really too stupid to contact vodafone or orange and get a plan from them. I mean really why would they actually pay roaming charges with AT&T. Its not like they bought the kindles from AT&T and AT&T locked them :D

Re:Wow really?

[vegiVamp]

Just a guess: some bigwig signed an exclusivity deal with AT&T, not realising that there is a rather sizeable "rest of the world" where AT&T is not omipresent.

Re:Wow really?

[aceofspades1217]

Its things like this that make me really wish the FCC would hurry up and ban permanent exclusivity deals.

But that would only happen in a world where congress can actually get anything done and stand up to businesses.

Who cares about browsers in these things?

[gilgongo]

Really - I remember everyone having orgasms about the fact that the PlayStation II was going to have a browser and that was going to take over the world. If you are going to buy a Kindle you are not thinking about surfing the Internets, you're thinking about reading books in the same way as you're thinking about playing games on the PSII.

No photos is a bit sucky though.

And the high price thing - meh. Ve Europeans vill nevargh geev oop our reediculous high prices! It is ze mark of civilization!

Too Confused To Make Heads Or Tails?

[tunapez]

Here's a brilliant idea, DON'T BUY IT! Here is a WANT(read: not NEED) that costs way too much for it's purpose and is hobbled every time the lawyers gets a scent of blood or a penny. Vote with the only thing these corp's care about, your money! Stop being the consumption drone the media tells you to be!!!!

Too much to ask, I guess. Gotta get the new Droid...oh my, it's a phone, too? And the new Lana Johannah album, she's hawt! And of course, them 20" rims for the Prius, they save batteries cuz they are cooler!

/common sense

Re:Too Confused To Make Heads Or Tails?

[fafaforza]

So is one automatically a consumption drone every time they make a purchase? Any purchase? There are thousands of people that enjoy their readers, many have multiple ones, and still keep up with the new models coming out.

Are you seriously saying that people buying these things to spend hours reading are making impulse buying decisions to satisfy some emotional need? Cmon. Most people buying these things are rational about the pros and cons and why exactly they buy them. After all, these things arent cheap.

Re:Too Confused To Make Heads Or Tails?

[tunapez]

Are you seriously saying that people buying these things to spend hours reading are making impulse buying decisions to satisfy some emotional need? Cmon.

Yes, yes I am. Where we going? I hope it's to the Yahoo Music Store!

want -verb (used with object)
1. to feel a need or a desire for; always wanting something new.
need -noun
4. necessity arising from the circumstances of a situation or case.

Don't complain when your functionality and content is further struck. Please keep in mind, your willingness to accept less ownership and relinquish control to a corporate entity sets precedent for future generations' choices. Validate your decision however you like, just remember to enjoy your TOY.

Re:Too Confused To Make Heads Or Tails?

[dcarmi]

Nope! The solution is to wait. Readers will appear quite rapidly because they are not the difficult to make. Stores will get their act together quite quickly because they have already taken a hammering from Amazon.

Besides the Kindle is not the finished article. It also has a too stupid a name to be taken seriously. It's not exactly a Hoover nor an iPod.

"Right dear. Just off for a bit of a Kindle." or "The Kindle generation." - I don't think.
That said the Nook is far worse. If you told someone in the UK that you had a Nookie Reader, you'd get some very funny looks!

Re:Too Confused To Make Heads Or Tails?

[fafaforza]

I think you're seriously hung up on calling others "consumers" or slaves to corporations, maybe to make yourself feel better, I don't know. Making a purchase doesn't enslave you to anyone.

Where do you draw the line between want and need, though, because enlightening yourself and improving your brain activity through reading seems like a fairly clear need, especially in today's information-based society.

Now, if you ask if this specific device is a need, I would say it is a need if you desire to have reading available with you to suit your mood and don't want to have 10 pounds of printed material in your book bag.

If I take the train to work, I used to carry a book and a newspaper because often I'd have no interest in reading one of them. With my Sony reader, I have half a dozen different news sources and RSS feeds loaded up in the morning -- anything from the Wall Street Journal to Linux Magazine or crash.net -- and can jump to any of them at the flip of a switch. And the weight that I carry remains the same.

As for ownership, is that an advantage? Having rows upon rows of books taking up space in your room? What will you do then, put them up on ebay and deal with shipping them? Pain in the ass. Or maybe just give it to the local library. My local library doesn't accept used books. Yeah, boggles my mind too. Obviously you can buy printed versions of the books you want to keep for a while, or text boots or technical reference books, but for novels, I don't see the point.

O Rly?

[thetagger]

Well, I bought the international Kindle, and I got it this morning. And nothing of what was mentioned in TFA is new to me: Amazon's website makes it very clear that I wouldn't get the internets on my Kindle and that newspaper and magazine subscriptions are delivered without pictures. The only piece of information that isn't blatantly obvious, but which can be determined with some fiddling, is that book prices differ: I am in Latin America and it looks like almost every book is exactly US$ 2 more expansive than in the American store.

I am slightly more concerned about the limited availability of current books. Browsing the store, I have access to a ton of public domain books, Penguin Classics (that is, even more public domain books) and a very limited selection of not very interesting recent books (I will never understand how Americans can be against health care and be so damn proud of it, but it's their problem not mine). Forget about most works by living authors, in particular serious writers. You can buy "Twilight" though.

But, I was aware of everything before I bought the Kindle. Nobody was cheated out of features. I am taking a gamble that availability of books will improve with time, but taking this risk was my own choice.

The thing about the Kindle is that shipping and handling can be really expensive internationally. If those US$ 2 are saving me about US$ 15 of S&H charges per book, I am happy. It would be nice if I could buy the books for the same prices as the American store, but proportionally, from a price perspective, buying books via the Kindle makes more sense here than in the US.

Re:O Rly?

[fafaforza]

As far as I am aware, prices are significantly higher if you download them wirelessly. If you download them to your computer and load them onto the Kindle via a USB cable, the price is lower, as it doesn't incur cell charges. I think an Amazon rep confirmed this, though I don't have a link.

Re:O Rly?

[reason]

If you bought your Kindle in the US and use it in another country, you pay the US price with $2 extra if you download it wirelessly. If you bought it from another country, you pay the prices for that country (generally $2 higher than the US price plus any applicable tax) with no extra for downloading it wirelessly (and no option of a discount if you don't).

40% premium on books for the kindle?

[phlegmboy]

Amazon can kiss my fat, hairy, unwiped ass in that case. I won't be buying that piece of crap if that is how Amazon are going to fuck people living outside the US.

Unclear headline

[sunderland56]

The headline (and linked article) are unclear. Are pictures stripped from newspapers/magazines (a) on the international Kindle, no matter where it is used; or (b) on a Kindle only when used outside of the USA?

The difference is significant. I was considering getting an international Kindle even though I live in the USA - so that it would work on trips. But, if my daily NYTimes has no pictures, then forget it. If the Times has pictures while I'm at home, but none when I'm in London, that is still annoying, but much less so.

And no, the Amazon web site doesn't say anything about the picture issue.

Solution is to include a wi-fi chip

[Anonymous Coward]

If the international kindle used wi-fi instead the problem of high data charges on a roaming US sim is gone. Or partner with a local GSM network. Am i missing something here? >> because this seems like a simple problem to solve.

That's nuts if even true.

[herojig]

That's nuts if even true. I am in India right now with Kindle iPhone, and it all looks the same price to me...so why would anyone "international" even go that route? None of Amazon's logic makes sense when looked at through the iPhone app...

Bring it on, if *only* I could buy books so cheap!

[SectoidRandom]

I'm very interested in this Kindle because I live in Australia where we are so lucky to have a thriving protectionist policy that results in ALL books costing 50-60% more! If I can buy them even at 40% more via Amazon on a Kindle then I'm winning!

But I too am trying to understand the 40% book markup comment? I can't see any different prices on Kindle titles on Amazon.com, but I can see the fine print which says all books are priced in US dollars, which actually suits me find.

Currently I often use Amazon.com and pay the $20-$30 shipping to get my books, and even including that cost it's cheaper than sourcing them locally!

Kindle / Nook - bring it on!

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