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Caves of the Moon
jeno passes along this excerpt from New Scientist:
"A deep hole on the moon that could open into a vast underground tunnel has been found for the first time. The discovery strengthens evidence for subsurface, lava-carved channels that could shield future human colonists from space radiation and other hazards. ... The hole measures 65 meters across, and based on images taken at a variety of sun angles, the hole is thought to extend down at least 80 meters. It sits in the middle of a rille, suggesting the hole leads into a lava tube as wide as 370 meters across."
Beware the mole people!
Everyone already knows the space moles dug these holes...
we're whalers on the moon we carry a harpoon though there ain't no whales so we tell tall tales and sing our whaling toon relevancy = 100
better be a tag....
she was the daughter of a wealthy florentine pogen read em and weep was her adjustable slogan
The moon is a harsh mistress...
So if we pump a bunch of air into it and wear wings can we fly around?
Sorry I didn't read the story just can't resist the reference.
Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
Moon worms make, more sense. Everyone knows that earth worms survived the moons separation from earth. Like any good sci fi the worms mutated, and are now giant moon worms!
"It sits in the middle of a rille, suggesting the hole leads into a lava tube as wide as 370 meters across."
This is really cool, but the main problem with living in lava tubes is...
LAVA.
Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress warmly recommended to spark your imagination.
.: Max Romantschuk
3.5 billion years into existence and we've finally hit the first plot point.
...if the moonquake/gravitiational earth pull/meteors broke a hole in the tube, couldn't the same thing happen over the heads of the moon cave-men?
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"
Albert Einstein
lava my foot. verne was right. it's the selenites!
That's no moon! It's a space station.
That hole is probably where it fires its main weapon from.
No goatse mention? What's happened to this place?
This is R. Daneel Olivaw's hideout
A similar hole was discovered on Uranus...
Think we'll find mynock in there?
I propose we send commander Boston Low, Dr. Ludger Brink and Maggie Robbins to investigate this.
BEWARE of space GRABOID'S
Now that we've discovered our soon to be lizard overlord's base entrance, what are they going to do about it? I for one welcome our new overlords.
And I thought, the moon would just Goatse us. ^^
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
So it's probably true... the Moon is really what some suspected quite some time...
On an other note, what is this fascination for men to discover holes?
Just when I'd finally gotten that out of my head...
I call dibs on the prayer fans. 10% of sales and discoveries from prayer fans goes to me, the rest you keep.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
http://www.cfnews13.com/Space/DestinationSpace/2009/10/9/nasa_punching_hole_in_moon_this_morning.html
"A deep hole on the moon that could open into a vast underground tunnel has been found for the first time."
In "Explorers on the Moon" he mentions ice (recently discovered) and caves. Now if we build that atomic rocket (NERVA or Orion), we could send a V2 like rocket on the moon with 8 people aboard, a dog, a tank (more impressive to selenites than a buggy) and let them stay for some weeks at first.
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
So they finally found out where Osama has been hiding....
A cave on the moon!!! That bastard probably runs around calling it a "Death Star"
Sorry its early in the morning for me and I am a bit loopy :)
That is how we reproduce, we better be good at it.
Lava tube is just a theory.
The moon isn't like a truck - it's a series of tubes.
TOTALLY what I was thinking. Next think you know, the Looneys will be chunking rocks at Cheyenne Mountain...
for storing cheese.
Task Mangler
Probably best to go to the primary source you young 'uns, that's where the Cavorite is. Extra credit for learning how many of these they seem to have found on Mars.
...and I really don't appreciate the voyeurs peeping in from 240 k miles out. I moved here for a reason, you insensitive clods!
The moon is made out of Swiss cheese...
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
An apartment dweller in Hutchinson, Kansas, this morning found a small, green-tinted button on the floor near a spare bedroom for the first time. The button was laying flat, nearly 2 inches from the closed bedroom door. Since this is the first time such a button has actually been available for observation, there is wide speculation as to its origin. According to researchers, it's sudden appearance may be the result of a previously undetected attack by extraterrestrial beings where they bombarded the Earth's surface with invisible and mass-less buttons, with this newly-found specimen being a strange aberrancy in the onslaught. Or, it could've fallen off a shirt.
Sorry I can't find a better link, but you don't really need a lava tube for settlement, it just makes it cheaper and easier. You're still going to need an inflatable habitat or similar (honestly, what else makes sense?) to sit in the tube.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Build a theme pack there.
Expect any planet with high temperature basaltic volcanism to have lava tubes: Earth, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Moon, and Io. Venus' might be very long given the slow cooling rate of erupted lava. Lava tubes might even exist on icy bodies like Titan.
Up until now, the land-area of the moon was mainly described by either being in the light side or the dark side. Both sides offered pros and cons to installing research equipment, communications devices, and even manned bases. Even with moon only divided into sections there has already been some friction between the nations regarding how the moon's landmass will eventually be split up. Should it simply be first-come first-served, or would some more democratic method be fairer? Maybe joint ventures is the only way to share the moon without conflict.
Now that we have a clear example of a potentially highly-desirable site, this issue of ownership is going to be extremely crucial. I hope we can figure out a workable solution soon.
I would love to hear your simpler explanation. Any will do, since you have a bunch of them.
"Since the tubes may be hundreds of metres wide, they could provide plenty of space for an underground lunar outpost. The tubes' ceilings could protect astronauts from space radiation, meteoroid impacts and wild temperature fluctuations" ...and provide nourishment for the settlers by way of lashings and lashings of blue string soup.
... I've got a bad feeling about this.
This all begs the question, when are we going to send a moon rover to study it more depth?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I call dibs on Sr. Fleet Captain!
I came from a parallel dimension and somehow ended up here.
Nice to see you use meters; on my home dimension, your equivalents live in a country known for using braindamaged units (a foot as a unit! can you imagine that? yeah, they're the lamest...)
Hmm, I noticed some M$ ads behind the poll. We don't have such things there; /. is like the last bastion where proprietary software would never enter...
Huh, don't tell me in this dimension M$ are the good guys and Google is evil!
It has to be one or the other.
I'm not saying I'm old enough to remember, but wasn't there a Mole Men of the Moon enemy our slightly gay, tight wearing, dual-life-leading, Krytonian Ersatz Messiah had to fight?
(Batman rules!)
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
That's undoubtedly the moon mean mine! (Run by an evil crab named Mel Gibson (just a coincidence)).
that would be Selenites.
:)
Named after the ancient greek goddess of the moon, Selene.
This name has been used for the inhabitants of the moon for more than a century.
Just thought I'd let you know.
These are almost certainly "sinkholes" into lava tubes, where lava runs out the center of a partially frozen lava flow. (Apollo 15 showed pretty clearly that at least the Hadley Rill was a collapsed lava tube.) There are lava tubes you can visit on the big island of Hawaii.
The interesting thing to me about this is that the interior of these tubes, being far from the Sun and in a vacuum, might easily contain an appreciable amount of water ice, for the same reason that the lunar poles might, but with a much more convenient distribution across the Moon's surface.
Besides, wouldn't it be cool to explore these 3 billion year old caves?
Clearly this is strong evidence to suggest the Moon is made of Swiss cheese.
a moon-caveman could do it?
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If Man is going to return to the Moon and make a permanent base there, then it might as well be done in a cave, which is much more naturally sheltered from harmful cosmic rays and meteors, as compared to living in some inflatable habitat on the surface. Heck, that's why our cavemen ancestors liked caves to begin with - because they were uniquely sheltering environments. Shouldn't there be some kind of effort to map out the lunar underground to reveal where the best locations might be? As they say in real estate - it's location, location, location!
Just ask Lt. Colin MacIntyre.
The second catapult was 'underground save for ejection and that just a hole in the ground ' (or something like that,
At what point has there been postulated to have been volcanism on the moon in it's past, or would that be a hold over from the theory that The Moon is actually a former piece of The Earth that was ejected from it's mass by some super duper early on catastrophe? Which would, I suppose, explain it.
Or, if there that theory isn't the going favorite, how would "lava tubes" have formed on the moon without, you know, molten core volcanism, etc.? Might we not be looking at some other mechanism? Anyone know anything about that? That supposition just struck me as kind of odd.
Next think you know, the Looneys will be chunking rocks at Cheyenne Mountain...
Then they made them get back on the bus for wasting Earth rocks.
Next time we get to the moon, we'll finally discover the underground moon mole city we've been looking for.
Aww Crap, They found my moon base. Now i have to move.
> Sorry I can't find a better link, but you don't really need a lava tube for settlement [inhabitat.com], it just makes it cheaper and easier. You're still going to need an inflatable habitat or similar (honestly, what else makes sense?) to sit in the tube.
Well, it's true that you don't *need* a lava tube, but they're a lot safer than volcanoes as a magma source. And you really do want some nice, molten rock so that you can set up lava forges and cool traps. While you're right that the surrounding area should be relatively tame (killer elephants are bad), a good source of magma is very important for defense. Though one big problem on the moon is the lack of running water. You really need that to go with your magma so that you can clean up any spills that make their way into your fortress. It's also a great way to farm obsidian for your dwarves...
Most cities have Grottos - chapters of the National Speleological Society (I'm in the Boston Grotto which, predictably enough, is in Boston. Others have less predictable names). I wonder if the NSS will ever establish a Grotto on the moon? --Dave
Step 1: Launch Chandrayaan-1
:-)
Step 2: Blow a hole in the moon and later announce the discovery of a hole in the moon...
Step 3: Profit!
...I think the search for Bin Laden can stop. This is probably the only cave we *have not* looked in yet!
In "Explorers on the Moon" (released in 1954), Tintin and Snowy start to explore a cave and fall in a huge cavern whose floor is totally covered by smooth, sloping ice. Funny how his idea was spot-on.
Nobox: Only simple products.
I just hope they wear protection before poking around in a strange hole.
Be seeing you...
It is made of a bunch of tubes..
R. Daneel Olivaw was the one who turned the Earth into a radioactive pile of waste, so presumably he predated that point (although he hadn't gone into hiding on the moon at that point)
So last week it was "We're bombing the moon!" and this week it's "there's a big hole in the moon!"? hmmm
You need more psychedelic art in your life. rhesusmonkey.deviantart.com
Assume that there are more tubes up there (and most likely there are). These are perfect for starts of mines. That means that commercial space has a place to go. Basically, this is an opportunity to lower the costs to future exploration that I suspect that Bigelow and other billionares will take advantage of. Combine that with a hotel, and I think that Bigelow, musk and others will be all over it.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Am I the only one who misread that as "larvae-carved channels"?
We finally found the home of the giant space slug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_creatures). My only question is if the mynocks have already been feeding on the detritus we have left behind. Moot
Neil Armstrong IS the Kwisatz Haderach!
expanded using convict labor. By then adding super computers, and a big slongshot we can end world hunger...
Whoever gets there first, say hello to Manual Garcia O'Kelly for me.
The above will only make sense to those who have read the Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein.
Confidentiality, Integrity, Availability: without Availability the other two are assured, as is Bankruptcy.
Sorry I can't find a better link, but you don't really need a lava tube for settlement, it just makes it cheaper and easier. You're still going to need an inflatable habitat The obvious problem with an inflatable habitat is that anything the size of dust is going to make at least one hole in it. Patching is likely to take up quite a bit of someone's time. or similar (honestly, what else makes sense?) to sit in the tube. Install two bulkheads some distance apart and pressurize the space in between to 75 kPa.
Installing bulkheads will work, whenever you can build them. For the larger lavatubes on the Moon, you would not want to lift the mass of a bulkhead, even an inflatable one. Even then, you must seal the rest of the lavatube, since lava fields are among the most porous rock formations we know of. Whenever basalt cools slowly, it cracks,....it cracks a *lot*, which is a major reason that *most* lavatubes collapse, giving us sinuous rilles on the Moon, and collapse trenches here on Earth. There *are* ways to use insitu resources to seal lavatubes, and make bulkheads. There is native iron and nickel in most lunar regolith, from nickel/iron meteoroid impactors whose metal recondenses on the surface after vaporizing on impact. In some places, it's nearly 1 percent of the regolith. Gather it with a magnetic rake on a telerobot, then dump that into a reaction vessel, and blow carbon monoxide through it at about 160 C at 3-5 atmospheres pressure, and you will make it into iron pentacarbonyl and nickel tetracarbonyl. Distill these to separate them, then break down the carbonyls by lower pressure (.1 Atmosphere) and higher temperature (about 220 C) to get Iron and Nickel powders on a micron size level. Use an electrostatic accelerator to throw the individual powder grains against the lavataube surface at a high enough speed they will splatter and stick to the surface. Build up a seal of the more common Iron component on the rock side of the seal, and then seal that off from water vapor in the future habitat atmosphere with a coating of Nickel, using the same technique as the Iron. For the bulkheads, bring a mold with the continuous curvature of the bulkhead, but only a small part of it. Then coat it with enough Iron to hold the desired pressure, with margin. Then coat that with the same thin coating of Nickel as on the lavatube seal. Use a sub-millimeter thin coating on the mold that reacts with the Iron surface of the bulkhead against the mold to weaken its grip on the mold. When that small section of the bulkhead is thick enough to hold the desired pressure in the habitat, slide the mold to the side, till it barely overlaps, then repeat the 2 coatings, making sure the 2 sections are welded to each other. Repeat this till you have constructed the entire bulkhead in place inside the lavatube. This would give you a safe habitat, with bulkheads and a lavatube seal that do not need to be lifted from Earth. These techniques are especially useful when you look at lavatubes hundreds of meters in diameter, as may well exist on the Moon, because of its low gravity. Till you can do something like this, use pressurized modules, either inflatable modules brought from Earth, or solid modules made from lunar glass-in-glass composites. That will let you get enough crew under the shelter of the lavatube to do the work of sealing a larger lavatube for a lunar community. In the virtual world of Second Life our research team is modeling these processes in a 3-phase development, at the National Space Society Island, in the SciLands Archipelago of Second Life. Some of our papers on this topic are at: http://www.oregonl5.org/l5sr2002.html Regards, Tom Billings