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IT Snake Oil — Six Tech Cure-Alls That Went Bunk

snydeq writes "InfoWorld's Dan Tynan surveys six 'transformational' tech-panacea sales pitches that have left egg on at least some IT department faces. Billed with legendary promises, each of the six technologies — five old, one new — has earned the dubious distinction of being the hype king of its respective era, falling far short of legendary promises. Consultant greed, analyst oversight, dirty vendor tricks — 'the one thing you can count on in the land of IT is a slick vendor presentation and a whole lot of hype. Eras shift, technologies change, but the sales pitch always sounds eerily familiar. In virtually every decade there's at least one transformational technology that promises to revolutionize the enterprise, slash operational costs, reduce capital expenditures, align your IT initiatives with your core business practices, boost employee productivity, and leave your breath clean and minty fresh.' Today, cloud computing, virtualization, and tablet PCs are vying for the hype crown." What other horrible hype stories do some of our seasoned vets have?

483 comments

  1. In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The bad news is that artificial intelligence has yet to fully deliver on its promises.

    Only idiots, marketers, businessmen and outsiders ever thought we would be completely replaced by artificially intelligent machines. The people actually putting artificial intelligence into practice knew that AI, like so many other things, would benefit us in small steps. So many forms of automation are technically basic artificial intelligence, it's just very simple artificial intelligence. While you might want to argue that the things we benefit from are heuristics, statistics and messes of if/then decision trees, successful AI is nothing more than that. Everyone reading this enjoys benefits of AI but you probably don't know it. For instance, your hand written mail is most likely read by a machine that uses optical character recognition to decide where it goes with a pretty good success rate and confidence factor to fail over to humans. Recommendation systems are often based on AI algorithms. I mean, the article even says this:

    The ability of your bank's financial software to detect potentially fraudulent activity on your accounts or alter your credit score when you miss a mortgage payment are just two of many common examples of AI at work, says Mow. Speech and handwriting recognition, business process management, data mining, and medical diagnostics -- they all owe a debt to AI.

    Having taken several courses on AI, I never found a contributor to the field that promised it to be the silver bullet -- or even remotely comparable to the human mind. I don't ever recall reading anything other than fiction claiming that humans would soon be replaced completely by thinking machines.

    In short, I don't think it's fair to put it in this list as it has had success. It's easy to dismiss AI if the only person you hear talking about it is the cult-like Ray Kurzweil but I assure you the field is a valid one (unlike CASE or ERP). In short, AI will never die because the list of applications -- though small -- slowly but surely grows. It has not gone 'bunk' (whatever the hell that means). You can say expert systems have failed to keep their promises but not AI on the whole. The only thing that's left a sour taste in your mouth is salesmen and businessmen promising you something they simply cannot deliver on. And that's nothing new nor anything specific to AI.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      The same defense applies to pretty much all of these (except maybe CASE).

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by John+Whitley · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The people actually putting artificial intelligence into practice knew that AI, like so many other things, would benefit us in small steps.

      Actually, there was a period very early on ('50s) when it was naively thought that "we'll have thinking machines within five years!" That's a paraphrase from a now-hilarious film reel interview with an MIT prof from the early 1950's. A film reel which was shown as the first thing in my graduate level AI class, I might add. Sadly, I no longer have the reference to this clip.

      One major lesson was that there's an error in thinking "surely solving hard problem X must mean we've achieved artificial intelligence." As each of these problems fell (a computer passing the freshman calc exam at MIT, a computer beating a chess grandmaster, and many others), we realized that the solutions were simply due to understanding the problem and designing appropriate algorithms and/or hardware.

      The other lesson from that first day of AI class was that the above properties made AI into the incredible shrinking discipline: each of its successes weren't recognized as "intelligence", but often did spawn entire new disciplines of powerful problem solving that are used everywhere today. So "AI" research gets no credit, even though its researchers have made great strides for computing in general.

    3. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``Having taken several courses on AI, I never found a contributor to the field that promised it to be the silver bullet -- or even remotely comparable to the human mind.''

      The problem is that, if it isn't that, then what is "artificial intelligence", rather than flashy marketing speak for just another bunch of algorithms?

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ERP could work if the vendors would realistically deal with GIGO.

      Unless you lock down the permissions so tightly that the system is unusable, your users will enter bad data. They'll add new entries for objects that already exist, they'll misspell the name of an object and then create a new object instead of editing the one they just created. They'll make every possible data entry error you can imagine, and plenty that you can't.

      We'd see a lot more progress in business software applications if all vendors would follow two rules:

      1. Every piece of data that comes from the user must be editable in the future
      2. Any interface that allows a user to create a new database entry MUST provide a method to merge duplicate entries.
    5. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      Having taken several courses on AI, I never found a contributor to the field that promised it to be the silver bullet -- or even remotely comparable to the human mind.

      Douglas Lenat, perhaps?

    6. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Having taken several courses on AI, I never found a contributor to the field that promised it to be the silver bullet -- or even remotely comparable to the human mind.

      Not today, after the "AI Winter". But when I went through Stanford CS in the 1980s, there were indeed faculty members proclaiming in print that strong AI was going to result from expert systems Real Soon Now. Feigenbaum was probably the worst offender. His 1984 book, The Fifth Generation (available for $0.01 through Amazon.com) is particularly embarrassing. Expert systems don't really do all that much. They're basically a way to encode troubleshooting books in a machine-processable way. What you put in is what you get out.

      Machine learning, though, has made progress in recent years. There's now some decent theory underneath. Neural nets, simulated annealing, and similar ad-hoc algorithms have been subsumed into machine learning algorithms with solid statistics underneath. Strong AI remains a long way off.

      Compute power doesn't seem to be the problem. Moravec's classic chart indicates that today, enough compute power to do a brain should only cost about $1 million. There are plenty of server farms with more compute power and far more storage than the human brain. A terabyte drive is now only $199, after all.

    7. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jitterman · · Score: 1

      Only idiots, marketers, ...

      Why did you repeat yourself? :)

      --
      For conscience is the wound, and there's naught to staunch it
    8. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by ceoyoyo · · Score: 3, Informative

      "CASE" isn't entirely bunk either. CASE as CASE might be, but computer aided software design isn't. Perhaps most here are now too young to remember when, if you wanted a GUI, you had to design it by hand, positioning all the elements manually in code and then linking things up manually, in code.

      Now almost nobody designs a GUI without a RAD tool of some kind. You drop your GUI elements on the window and the tool generates code stubs for the interaction. That's way, way nicer, and way, way faster than, for example, setting up transfer records for a Windows 3.1 form.

    9. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that, if it isn't that, then what is "artificial intelligence", rather than flashy marketing speak for just another bunch of algorithms?

      Everything a computer (or arguably, a human) ever does is (or at least can be expressed as) simpy another bunch of algorithms that create a whole which hopefully does something useful.

      You can't make a difference between artificial intelligence and a bunch of algorithms, this has been always known well. Artificial intelligence is just eloquent enough bunch of algorithms to resemble human intelligence.

      If you have a robot that can sort your mail or a computer that can tell your actual emails from the spam (and usually has some kind of learning algorithms for this) or a robot that can vacuum your house by remembering where it has already been, avoiding furniture, etc... It would be a far stretch to claim that those don't have AIs.

    10. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by FlyingBishop · · Score: 2, Funny

      Artificial intelligence is trying to make computers do things that are currently very hard for a computer to do, but very easy for a human to do. Once there are ubiquitous algorithms / hardware to do something as fast as a human can, we remove it from the category of "things computers will never be able to do as well as people."

    11. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A film reel which was shown as the first thing in my graduate level AI class, I might add. Sadly, I no longer have the reference to this clip.

      Heh. Day 1 of my AI class, the lecture was titled: "It's 2001 -- where's HAL?"

      The other lesson from that first day of AI class was that the above properties made AI into the incredible shrinking discipline: each of its successes weren't recognized as "intelligence", but often did spawn entire new disciplines of powerful problem solving that are used everywhere today. So "AI" research gets no credit, even though its researchers have made great strides for computing in general.

      Yeah that's when the prof introduced the concept of "Strong AI" (HAL) and "Weak AI" (expert systems, computer learning, chess algorithms etc). "Strong" AI hasn't achieved its goals, but "Weak" AI has been amazingly successful, often due to the efforts of those trying to invent HAL.

      Of course the rest of the semester was devoted to "Weak AI". But it's quite useful stuff!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    12. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by boristdog · · Score: 1

      Unless you lock down the permissions so tightly that the system is unusable, your users will enter bad data. They'll add new entries for objects that already exist, they'll misspell the name of an object and then create a new object instead of editing the one they just created. They'll make every possible data entry error you can imagine, and plenty that you can't.

      GET OUT OF MY MIND!

      -seriously, are you me?

    13. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by stinerman · · Score: 2, Funny

      Only idiots, marketers, businessmen

      You repeat yourself, Mr. eldavojohn.

    14. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Aye,
      When the human mixer for coca-cola retired, they distilled his entire life's experience into under 50 rules and created a system that controlled mixing cocacola.
      Then it was the humans that screwed things up and decided to make New Coke and use corn syrup instead of sugar.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    15. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Having taken several courses on AI, I never found a contributor to the field that promised it to be the silver bullet -- or even remotely comparable to the human mind. I don't ever recall reading anything other than fiction claiming that humans would soon be replaced completely by thinking machines.

      One word : Kurzweil

      --
      This is my sig.
    16. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      To succeed with an ERP you have to cut business functionality that the ERP doesn't support.

      The problem with ERP is executives.
      They understand *very clearly* that we should not have custom code or the project will fail.

      So they created a new name (can't share it here since it would ID my company) for customization so let's call it "Business Exception Functionality Coding". We long ago passed 700 BEFC's. People on the ERP team who have done ERP in the past now say we are in line for a 10 year implementation. And it will require a large support staff whenever the ERP gets a new version. And (if the past is prologue) will prevent us from upgrading.

      But executives frequently succeed by redefining terms. We will "succeed" at our first major goalpost in about 7 months.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    17. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by DrVomact · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that, if it isn't that, then what is "artificial intelligence", rather than flashy marketing speak for just another bunch of algorithms?

      Exactly. "Artificial intelligence" seems to serve various purposes—at best vacuous and at worst deceptive. How many millions of dollars have academicians raked in for various projects that involve research into "artificial intelligence"?

      What makes all this silliness sustainable is the philosophical fog that surrounds words such as "intelligence" and "thinking". Such words easily slip their moorings in our common language, and acquire some very strange uses. Yet, because they are recognizably legitimate words that do have perfectly legitimate uses, it is all too easy to fool people into uncritical acceptance of claims that, when analyzed, make little sense.

      When someone talks to me about creating "artificial intelligence", I never deny that this is possible. I can't deny a claim that I don't clearly understand. To evaluate a claim, I first need clarification of what is being asserted. In this case, it's as though someone were talking about the discovery of "artificial chenya". To even understand that claim, I have to know what natural chenya might be. So tell me, what is "natural intelligence"? You're going to have to be very clear about that before you can start writing the requirements document for your project.

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    18. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Only idiots, marketers, businessmen and outsiders ever thought we would be completely replaced by artificially intelligent machines. The people actually putting artificial intelligence into practice knew that AI, like so many other things, would benefit us in small steps.

      Huh?? Researchers in artificial intelligence have been foretelling incredible strides for the past 5 decades; it's only recently, relatively speaking, that it's become useful.

    19. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 5, Funny

      seriously, are you me?

      I don't think so but the possibility can't be ruled out without further investigation. Have you ever tried to expose a database application to users and subsequently lost all faith in humanity?

    20. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by cecille · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe. But I think it's mostly just a disconnect between what the people who work in the field believe the term to mean and what the general public takes the term to mean. Some of that might just be naivete on the part of researchers. And maybe some bravado as well.

      When I hear about intelligent anything to do with computers, I just think of a system that learns. That, to me, is the key differentiator. On the other hand, my mom's friend was telling me one night at dinner that her son was taking a class where they're "building machines like brains". Well, he was clearly learning about ANNs in some undergrad CI course, but man, it sure sounds better when you say you're building brains, eh? It sounds like self-aware systems are a semesters worth of work away. Maybe he was trying to make his work sound more impressive. Or maybe his mom just took the wrong thing away from the conversation. Either way, he's talking about building an XOR and she's thinking Commander Data.

      To be honest, though, researchers aren't always clear on what the terms mean either. Don't get me wrong - you'd be hard pressed to find a researcher who genuinely believes they are going to build a self-aware system or anything of the sort, but I remember going to a conference with an hour and a half long panel discussion on whether or not the fields of AI and CI should be combined or separated in the conference, and what each encompassed. No one had a good answer.

      --
      ...no two people are not on fire.
    21. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've never worked for a software company but as the "computer guy" I got to help move people from the "emailing spreadsheets around" workflow to basic MS Access database applications (I know just enough about databases to be horrified about the idea of using Access for critical business functions but it's better than Excel).

      As the maintenance manager of a factory I got to help the plant manager make software purchasing decisions. I've come to the conclusion that mid-sized to large corporations should just bite the bullet and hire their own programmers. If it makes sense to design your product and design your own assembly lines and design your own tooling, jigs and fixtures then it makes sense to design your own software. Any cost savings you can achieve by outsourcing to a more specialized company never seems to materalize.

    22. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While Ray Kurzweil is certainly crazy, it is not possible to argue that he is not a contributor to the field with a straight face. Unless you're ready to argue that Omin-Font OCR isn't one of those AI technologies that "benefit in small steps".

      Crazy he might be, but a contributor he certainly is.

    23. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Intron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One good example is speech recognition. This was a hot topic of research in the 70s. Now its a $20 DSP chip.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    24. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      For instance, your hand written mail is most likely read by a machine that uses optical character recognition to decide where it goes with a pretty good success rate and confidence factor to fail over to humans.

      In fact, the Deutsche Post (Germany's biggest mail company) uses a neural network to process hand-written zip codes. It works rather well, as far as I know. Classic AI, too.

      Plus, spam filters. Yes, they merely use a glorified Bayes classifier but, well... learning classifiers are a part of AI. Low-level AI, for sure, but AI.

      Ont thing about AI that confuses laypersons is that it's a term describing many things from the lowliest classifier to SKYNET. Much like laypersons tend to associate chemistry with mixing colored liquids until something happens, they associate artificial intelligence with either artificial human-like brains or the behavior of bots in ego shooters (which, amusingly, often doesn't contain any AI at all).

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    25. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by dj_tla · · Score: 1

      Artificial intelligence, simply put, is just applied computer science. The name is just intriguing enough that it gets (got?) decent funding.

    26. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by daveime · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm still getting therapy.

      We had a simple field on a form to "Supply a Telephone Number". The users didn't, so we used JS to validate they had filled it in.

      Then they filled in garbage, so we enforced numerals only. The users entered "1111111" everywhere.

      Then we enforced standard number formats based on a Country selector, with correct International Dialling Codes and pattern / format matching. The users entered "0044 (1)1111111" everywhere.

      Finally we checked that the numbers didn't look like "0044 (1)1111111" i.e. too many repeated characters, after extensive testing to avoid false-positives. The users now enter "0044 (1)2121212" everywhere.

      The more you Idiot-Proof a system, the smarter the Idiots become. Not smarter at actually entering the correct data, just smarter at bypassing the protections you put in place.

    27. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      Actually, there was a period very early on ('50s) when it was naively thought that "we'll have thinking machines within five years!" That's a paraphrase from a now-hilarious film reel interview with an MIT prof from the early 1950's.

      Defiantly in need of the silhouette of Joel, Crow and Tom then.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    28. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As ex-AI researcher and a post-grad let me assure you that AI as promised is as far away of its goal as it has been in 60s.
      But this is a classical understanding of AI.
      In the non-classical case image recognition, voice synthesis, business intelligence made huge leaps.
      As Minsky told in one of his last lecturers AI is not a single thing or an algorithm or approach as he thought earlier. It is a hodge-podge of different approaches with different ways of solving problems put together with a duct tape

    29. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by mindstrm · · Score: 1

      "Any cost savings you can achieve by outsourcing to a more specialized company never seems to materialize."
      Agreed.
      Unfortunately, what we need are demonstrable cases where this is true.

      Running full scale in-house development, especially if you have fat regulatory manuals to follow (PCI, SOX, etc) - requires quite a bit of staffing and process. Project managers, product lifecycles, all that buzz. It's a whole other thing that has to be managed.

      Outsourcing looks good on the books. It's a line item, rather than a department.

    30. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AI is like the lure that dogs chase around the race track. It is unobtainable technology. Once we get it, it is instantly demystified and joins the countless advances of computer science that are "just algorithms". There are so many things in our daily lives which would have passed as AI two decades ago, but because we understand how they work, we are not inclined to think of the devices as intelligent systems anymore. IMHO the effect of AI will be a demystification of human intelligence, when computers can replace us in more and more environments: We will still understand that what the machines do is determined by an algorithm, so we'll wonder if there's anything special about us.

    31. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Seems to me like these are the "I don't have a telephone number!" or "I don't want you cold-calling me during dinner!" options, depending on what kind of database app this actually is. Maybe the problem is that you actually require a telephone number (unless it actually is required for practical, not marketing, reasons)?

    32. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by murdocj · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just out of curiosity... did you ever try to find out WHY people were making entries with invalid phone numbers? Is it at all possible that instead of your users being idiots, they HAD to make an entry, but the phone number was one piece of data that simply wasn't available?

      If I've learned anything over a lot of years of programming, it's that when your users absolutely insist on doing something contrary to what your program wants them to do, it's time to sit down and listen.

    33. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      The more you Idiot-Proof a system, the smarter the Idiots become. Not smarter at actually entering the correct data, just smarter at bypassing the protections you put in place.

      Did you think of adding a comment to the form saying something to the effect that all requests that did not include valid data would be filed in /dev/null?

      If the form submits information to a database, presumably it's a queue of items to be actioned by a human being... if the form goes to an e-mail gateway, again, presumably you've still got a human reading it. Don't bother with the jscript to enforce it actually looking like a phone number, just delete any requests that don't have a good one. Because of the disclaimer on the form, you don't even have to reply to the requests with bad information, and if they try to complain about it, direct them to the fact that the form requires a good phone number.

    34. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by turbidostato · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "We had a simple field on a form to "Supply a Telephone Number". The users didn't, so we used JS to validate they had filled it in."

      So instead of validation server-side you rely on validation client-side?

      "The more you Idiot-Proof a system, the smarter the Idiots become. Not smarter at actually entering the correct data, just smarter at bypassing the protections you put in place."

      Hummm... Why are your users entering such telephone numbers as 1111111? Are you *sure* they do it on mistake? Or might it be that they don't *want* to give their telephone number to you for their own valid reasons and you still didn't add the option "I don't have or don't want to share my telephone number with you"?

      I'm not sure which keyboard end is the idiot one in this case.

    35. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by mvdwege · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A very good example, that. That $20 DSP does nothing but a brute force search on certain sound patterns. This is not in any way similar to how humans process speech.

      I am not in the camp that says humans have a certain ineffable something that computers can never replicate, but using brute force pattern matching is not the way to find out just how human perception works and reimplementing it in a machine. Chess, BTW, is an example of the opposite: even humans do a brute force search down the decision tree. Sometimes they're trained enough to prune the tree quickly, but that is no different from the common algorithms currently in use.

      As Douglas Hofstadter puts it, the most interesting things happen in those 100ms between seeing a picture of your mother and going 'Mom!', and we're nowhere near understanding that problem space enough to implement it in AI. At least, we weren't a couple of years back. I haven't kept up with current developments though.

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    36. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by amRadioHed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is not in any way similar to how humans process speech

      How do humans do it?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    37. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have to agree with this...

      When a corporation passes a certain size, having a packaged ERP is a good idea (for legal compliance).

      The problem is, generic accounting packages, ERP packages, etc. work best when you don't have a bunch of exceptional processes (our PO process had 17 variations- from as little as 2 lines on the form- to a full form plus multiple attachments-- people used the same form area for many different meanings-- the 1 page form was really about a 4 page form).

      The solution was to cut down most of the exceptions and standardize. We do things that we added for an "edge case" 15 years ago which has never recurred.
      We have steps to address customers who are no longer customers. Yet the steps live on.

      Having an ERP and using it as specified (no unique coding unless it makes us boatloads of money) is the right choice for a big corporation.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    38. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by toriver · · Score: 1

      CASE == the old name for what is called "Model Driven Develoment" today. Which basically is a sales pitch from tool vendors.

    39. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by daveime · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In fact, this was an internal web based app for our office, which dealt with hotel reservations.

      When setting up a new hotel on the system, the users (our staff), had to find and supply the telephone number as part of the standard contact details we needed for every hotel.

      Do you know of any hotel that DOESN'T have a telephone, and if so, how would we call them to make a reservation ?

      There are sometimes instances where some fields MUST be filled in, otherwise the whole record becomes worthless.

    40. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by toriver · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you also complain when airplanes don't flap their wings? (Sci-fi's Ornithopters excempted of course.)

      Knowledge systems/rules engines and neural networks can deduce answers, that is sufficient to be labeled "intelligence" in my book.

    41. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      The more you Idiot-Proof a system, the smarter the Idiots become. Not smarter at actually entering the correct data, just smarter at bypassing the protections you put in place.

      Just look how smart you've become - why the hell are you demanding a phone number? If I had your form to fill in, I'd either abandon it or put in your main switchboard, or a phone sex number.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    42. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Strong AI remains a long way off.

      Well of course - AI sort of requires animus, and I have yet to see an AI prof even breathe the word.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    43. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by lessermilton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This reminds me of a story I read a while ago about decision making - they tossed some folks in an MRI and presented them with a series of choices. According to the study, people made the decision up to 8 seconds before they actually made their decision. The argument in the article was that this is proof that there's no free will. My first thought when I read that was 'how does that make any sense?' The only thing conclusive is that people are terrible at knowing when they've made a decision. I think people don't really understand most things, including stuff we think we understand. On the other hand, I also tend to wonder if there really is life inside the computer, and each time I push a key or something I'm killing a little electron.

      --
      I wish I had a witty .sig
    44. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Sort of like children... they are incapable of surviving and understanding the world on their own - so are our weak-ai tools. Someday. I'm not putting a timeframe on it. But we'll get it someday.

    45. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      "In fact, this was an internal web based app for our office, which dealt with hotel reservations."

      "If I had your form to fill in, I'd either abandon it or put in your main switchboard, or a phone sex number."

      lol

    46. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by ckaminski · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Simple, Mr. Web Guy. I don't trust you with my fucking number. I barely trust you with my email, but getting spam there is sort of a solved problem for me (Thank you GMail). But getting called because you want to upsell me on some $4 widget? No thanks. Stop REQUIRING my phone number. Just because your marketing guy wants it doesn't make it useful to get.

      That's the problem now... marketing is so good at getting your message across, you try at all costs to get the upsell and get your value back. Meanwhile, you just create jaded customers.

    47. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by DocDJ · · Score: 2, Informative

      Having taken several courses on AI, I never found a contributor to the field that promised it to be the silver bullet

      <cough>Ontologies: A Silver Bullet for Knowledge Management and Electronic Commerce</cough>

      Having spent over ten years working professionally in the field, I've found this kind of thing to be all too common, especially among ambitious-but-talentless academics where grant applications are concerned, particularly where said grant applications contain the words "semantic" and "web" in close proximity - now that really is pure, undiluted snake oil. The semantic web community has received hundreds of millions of dollars/euros/pounds in funding and they've delivered nothing of any use. Zippo, zilch, zero. Compare this with enormous amounts of useful functionality delivered by the machine learning community. The difference is that machine learning is rigorous and can be really quite difficult, whereas the semantic web is based on the belief that 3-tuples are really neat.

    48. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just when they invent flying cars to commute to work, AI robots will take your job away anyhow :-P

    49. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Nihixul · · Score: 1

      Once I read "HAL", I couldn't help but read "Strong AI" as "Strong Al" (that is, AL) and "Weak AI" as "Weak Al" (again, AL). ...all this even after reading (for several minutes) text that discussed AI.

    50. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      A very good example, that. That $20 DSP does nothing but a brute force search on certain sound patterns. This is not in any way similar to how humans process speech.

      Human brains tend to use a variety of techniques, including using frequency of associations. For example, when I type "serve", I almost always accidentally type "server" instead because I use that word often in my work. Thus, something in my head is seeing the first few letters and grabbing the most likely match from the hand-movement bins. Unfortunately, "most likely" is not a 100% fit.

      And "brute force" can mean different things. Brains use a lot of brute-force too. For example, a search path may expand out to thousands of branches of neurons to find the best match. If we wanted to replicate such in a chip, we may have to try each of the 1000 paths iteratively. It's a similar technique, but implemented differently to keep the chip cheap and because chips have different performance trade-offs than wetware. To me, "brute force" means more or less "try every combination". But I doubt speech recognition chips do that. They use various heuristics to narrow things down, such as combo-constraint-box indexes.
             

    51. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by mejesster · · Score: 1

      A 1 TB drive is less than half that: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010150014%20103530090%201035313496&name=1TB Unless you're referring to 2.5" drives or enterprise SAS drives... but you didn't specify.

      --
      MacroHard - Boning you in a big way! (TM)
    52. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by FormOfActionBanana · · Score: 1

      Slashdot fails on both counts.

      --
      Take off every 'sig' !!
    53. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > ...what is "artificial intelligence"...

      Artificial intelligence is whatever it is that machines can't do yet.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    54. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      > ...what is "artificial intelligence"...

      Artificial intelligence is whatever it is that machines can't do yet.

      Artificial Supitidy is whatever holds us over in the mean time.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    55. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by w0mprat · · Score: 1

      seriously, are you me?

      I don't think so but the possibility can't be ruled out without further investigation. Have you ever tried to expose a database application to users and subsequently lost all faith in humanity?

      You missed an important lesson didn't you? Do not begin programming with any faith in the users input. I find it helps my blood pressure.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    56. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by mgblst · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, we tried ringing them...

    57. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by pudding7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So having all these idiot users put in 111111 made how many all those records useless? Did you ever send a memo saying "If you put in 11111111 you're wasting your time since this record won't be used by anyone, ever."?

    58. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      There are certain errors that no amount of validation will catch. If one user is ordering supplies and creates a new entry "Blade, Hacksaw" and another user at the same time creates a "Hacksaw blade" both entries might be perfectly valid part descriptions. It takes a person to say definitely that yes, these entries actually represent the same item and should be combined.

    59. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by bartoku · · Score: 1

      Yeah, after taking an AI course in college and building robots in graduate school I was no longer afraid of movies like the Terminator and the Matrix. Although my weed cutting robot did cut the crap out of the PhD's hand and my JAVA based GoMoku playing AI, using alpha beta pruning trees, still beats me most of the time. OK, I live on the second floor, with some liquid steel, in a dark place (that whole Matrix block out the sun, humans make good batteries for the AI, does not make sense to me).

    60. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What were they supposed to do if they did not have a phone?

    61. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by demi · · Score: 1

      Well in fact they do end up hiring programmers, but they might call them something else and they might not be employees: they might call their job "customization" or "configuration" or whatever.

      This is the whole thing that bugs me about ERPs and other "enterprise" packaged software, encapsulated in the "buy vs. build" debate. It's never "buy" vs. "build": it's always "buy and build" (in the form of integration, customization and configuration--you always need to supply the logic yourself), or "build".

      --
      demi
    62. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Actually, they assumed that you could go and look up the number yourself. Really. And your company probably compensated the agents by the number of reservations they booked, not the number of reservations that had the proper information included booked. You could have easily solved this problem by docking the agent per error (invalid phone number being one such error) or only compensating him/her for reservations with all data valid. But the business didn't do that. They obviously thought that the people processing the reservations on the back end could look up the phone number, too. The bottom line is that the agents weren't stupid. In fact it was in their self interest to put in crap data and ship the problem to the back end because they could get to the next call (and meet their quota) ten seconds earlier.

      --
      That is all.
    63. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by asolipsist · · Score: 1

      You're vastly underestimating the cost of developing a strong AI machine (not serial).

      As an example of Strong AI, take a human brain: it has ~100 billion neurons, this is about 500k worth of custom 'neural' FACETS chips.
      http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/22339/?a=f

      Let's say each of these custom chips costs $100 x 500k = $50 million just for the CPUs alone, not to mention the bus, networking, interconnects etc that would need to be developed.

      Emulating 'neural networks' with serial computers (traditional chips) is horribly inefficient, I doubt combining all the top 50 supercomputers in the world could simulate 100 bill neurons in one human brain in real time.

      Not to mention the cost of the doing the hard part, developing the software.

    64. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by murdocj · · Score: 1

      So WHY were the users of the system entering the hotel without the phone number? Did anyone actually talk to them? If the users are going to be calling the hotel to make reservations, they would certainly be motivated to put the number in... so seems like something beyond "users are idiots" is going on.

    65. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. My Roomba says AI is advancing slowly and starting to become useful in the home.

    66. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've run into similar situations. The solution was to not enforce "correct" data entry but have the system send me an email when something suspicious was entered, so I could then follow up with the user and ask them why they were polluting my database. This of course would not be feasible if you have a lot of users entering a lot of bad data but after the abusers repeatedly had to deal with me, they realized it was easier to put the right data in the first time rather than have me on their case all the time.

      Yeah, they all hated me. But the DB sure was clean!

    67. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Nothing is Idiot-Proof to a sufficiently talented Idiot."

    68. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Notice how it didn't really say who the users were in the GP - the common case here is registration/contact forms where salesmen want a number to call. They get the treatment.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    69. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "In fact, this was an internal web based app for our office, which dealt with hotel reservations.
      When setting up a new hotel on the system, the users (our staff), had to find and supply the telephone number as part of the standard contact details we needed for every hotel.
      Do you know of any hotel that DOESN'T have a telephone, and if so, how would we call them to make a reservation ?
      There are sometimes instances where some fields MUST be filled in, otherwise the whole record becomes worthless"

      So again we are in square one: Why are your users entering such telephone numbers as 1111111? Are you *SURE* they do it on mistake? Because if they do for their own valid (to them) reasons managing the incident as if it were a mistake you try to avoid by code, then the idiot one is still on *your* end of the keyboard.

    70. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Every piece of data that comes from the user must be editable in the future

      This is not always as easy as it first sounds. Often, the state of the object as it existed at some point in the past must be preserved, even if that is not the present state of the object as of that date in the past. If you are confused, then take a look at Martin Fowler's article on Temporal Objects for an introduction to how deep the rabbit hole goes with "effective dating".

      Any interface that allows a user to create a new database entry MUST provide a method to merge duplicate entries.

      Again, combine this with effective dating and you have an interface that is so advanced that it will probably confuse most users even if it is technically implemented correctly.

      computer assisted ERP is one of those ideas that sounds good in principle, but often falls short in practice. Not everyone using the ERP system is going to be an engineer after all; so it is unreasonable to expect that level of sophistication and understanding, even though that may be necessary in order to get real value out of an ERP system.

    71. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Human brains tend to use a variety of techniques, including using frequency of associations. For example, when I type "serve", I almost always accidentally type "server" instead because I use that word often in my work. Thus, something in my head is seeing the first few letters and grabbing the most likely match from the hand-movement bins. Unfortunately, "most likely" is not a 100% fit.

      What makes you think 'frequency associations' are anything other than an emergency property of a system that utilizes only neural networks and brute force?

      Something that is fundamentally brute force can easily give rise to other appearances.

    72. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Oops... I meant to say emergent property, not emergency property

    73. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by LtGordon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll call it truly intelligent when the computer can design its own algorithms. In the meantime, following an if/then tree is pretty weak AI.

    74. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by lennier · · Score: 1

      "I assure you the field is a valid one [arxiv.org] (unlike CASE or ERP)."

      Are you sure? Aren't CASE and ERP historically both successful spinoffs/applications of AI? Why would the more ambitious field be 'valid' while the more limited and grounded ones be invalid?

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    75. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Velex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How do humans do it?

      It's a fascinatingly complex process. Seriously, read up a bit on Wikipedia and perhaps take a few foreign languages. There are many, many points of failure. I think it's interesting to consider Orwell's argument about language in 1984. When thinking of Orwell, I'm glad that I've had the opportunity to be exposed to as many languages as I have. The more languages I learn, even if only a few words and concepts, the more modes of thinking I open myself up to. A new language to me can sometimes introduce a whole new viewpoint on the world, simply through the specific connotations and denotations. Usually denotations are easy to translate, however connotations can pose such of a problem that sometimes we prefer to just outright borrow a word from another language to express precisely our meaning. Language can evoke all 5 senses.

      Personally, I'm fascinated by language, written and spoken. There are words I learned in Germany that I still use today even though I'm no longer anywhere near fluent (use it or lose it). For example, in English we have a "shortcut," but I can't readily think of the opposite unless I use the German word "Umweg." Another example: as I was looking at art in a story today I came across some Japanese characters (because we know that hanging up symbols you have no idea about is so cool), I noticed that the kanji for woman was one of the radicals in a kanji that was translated as "tranquility." It made me wonder who, thousands of years ago, thought about the concept of tranquility and decided that the lower radical should be the symbol for "woman." I could go on like this. Suffice to say, language is perhaps the single tool we use to define our consciousness has humans.

      I'd further pontificate that unless we were to create an AI for whom language is as prevasive as in the human mind, chasing strong AI will always result in failure.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
    76. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you labeled the field wrong and staff thought you meant them. "Supply a telephone number" vs "Enter hotel's telephone number" e.g.

    77. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      The only way to do it is to make the system bitemporal. In then end you eliminate use of the UPDATE and DELETE SQL commands. Everything becomes an INSERT or SELECT.

    78. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jalvarez13 · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that the problem here lies in the incentives for the employees. If they are measured by how many records are entered, then they'll figure out ways to enter them faster...

      I've seen this too many times in different industries and job types. How to change it? Evaluate them by the contactability of the records they enter. Take a sample and call the hotels. The percentage of correct numbers should be linked to some sort of variable pay, which must also take the total records into account (It is way too easy to have 100% if you enter only one...)

      The key concept here is to link their evaluation to the actual impact their actions have for your business. Did Sally enter a lot of good records and this means more business? Then she should earn more than those who give you a lot of bad records.

    79. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jpm242 · · Score: 1

      Do you know of any hotel that DOESN'T have a telephone, and if so, how would we call them to make a reservation ?

      There are sometimes instances where some fields MUST be filled in, otherwise the whole record becomes worthless.

      A dummy phone number won't let you make a reservation. Actually, a blank field indicates that a record is incomplete. A field containing garbage, is also incomplete, except you cant detect it programmatically, at least not as easily as looking for blank fields.

      --
      --- Worst tagline ever.
    80. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by ppanon · · Score: 1

      Do you work in a hospital, firehouse, or as a paramedic?

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    81. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jalvarez13 · · Score: 1

      Have you read Winograd and Flores book "Understanding Computers and Cognition"? (yes, the same Winograd that was Larry Page's PhD advisor)

      http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Computers-Cognition-Foundation-Design/dp/0201112973/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1

      It is a really revolutionary book written in 1986 about how AI wouldn't ever be able to do all the things that were implicitly (and explicitly) promised. It relies in sound biological and philosophical arguments that show how foolish the present ideas are.

      No I'm not saying we will never have intelligent machines. What I do say is that they are not going to be created by any of the current approaches.

    82. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they got all their info online.

    83. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      Since they have to put in a location, it's not that hard to get the correct international exchange, as well as the list 3 or 4-digit local exchanges. I did it in one afternoon, and the testers and end users bitched because they could no longer enter 555-234-1111 - all but the last 4 digits had to match the state/province/territory.

      Did the same with postal codes/zip coded. No more fake zip codes. More complaints from testers and end users.

      End result - I got shit for - get this - slowing down testing!

    84. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jd · · Score: 1

      Meh. Most of the list is bunk. The few valid points made are flawed heavily by them being largely points about how they were marketed to the masses, rather than in whether the technology actually delivered on what it actually promised.

      I agree with you, but CASE as CASE is most certainly not "bunk". Think about the languages we use these days and compare them to back in the days when people actually used terms like CASE. PHP, Java and Ruby might not be "specification languages" in the purest Comp Sci sense, but they're miles closer than 68040 assembly, Fortran 77 and K&R-dialect C.

      You're absolutely right about RAD tools, but since we still use stub-based networking code like RPC, it's a fair bet lots of people are using tools to generate code from some sort of spec. (Hell, for that matter, what are autoconf and autogen but tools that turn specifications into routines?)

      Of course, CASE didn't stop at code generation. If it did, it would never have advanced beyond "The Last One" (a laughably-titled code generator from the late 1970s). It had a lot to do with looking for correctness. Klokwork and Coverity are the rightful heirs to that side of CASE. Sure they're not perfect, no tool ever is. I said heirs, not evolutionary dead-ends.

      Traditional CASE is monolithic and it is monolithic that doesn't work so well. The elements, in and of themselves, seem to work fine. The smaller the grain, the better. Large-grained elements, like CORBA, don't seem to have been so successful.

      Mind you, with ADA re-emerging and a real effort towards higher-quality code per iteration, I'm not going to write CORBA off so quickly. Grid computing tools like Globus aren't so fast either, but they're extremely good at what they do, which is why they're thriving. .Net is "easy" but I regard it as easy for all the wrong reasons. I don't think you could ever write sustainable high-quality code with it. With something like TAO, on the other hand, I think you probably could.

      As for why the big giants haven't got any good examples of successful CASE (or indeed ADA) projects - well, if a giant can't sort out feet from meters from nautical miles (yes, NASA has actually tried to find mountains 22,000 nautical miles high on Earth) then said giant probably couldn't produce anything even if it had a store of magic pixie dust and an army of fairy godmothers. Poor workmen blame the tools, and I think CASE has been blamed by some exceptionally cruddy workmen for the exceptionally cruddy work produced.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    85. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jd · · Score: 1

      According to "Red Dwarf", that's because it's so important.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    86. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by sjames · · Score: 1

      The only reason AI is seen as a failure is that for some reason, whenever some application of it succeeds it is no longer considered part AI. Thus, AI has "no successes" in spite of the many no-longer-AI things that came from it.

    87. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by ffflala · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of server farms with more compute power and far more storage than the human brain. A terabyte drive is now only $199, after all.

      Was that a wooshing sound I just heard passing by overhead? Forgive me if I missed your sarcasm, but the phrase "more storage than the human brain" struck me. How exactly can you measure the storage capacity of the human brain? Neurons are not bits.

    88. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by sjames · · Score: 1

      ERP could probably work, but not as a packaged system. Instead, it would have to evolve into place much like the existing business processes did. It would start as a series of smaller systems at the departmental level but designed ti integrate at some point and then finally converge. This is not a job for a big ERP vendor, they will be too anxious to sell pre-packaged solutions and wag the dog by changing the whole business to fit the system.

    89. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Again, it's hard to answer without first a clear working definition of what "brute force" means.

    90. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Zalbik · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The more you Idiot-Proof a system, the smarter the Idiots become. Not smarter at actually entering the correct data, just smarter at bypassing the protections you put in place.

      Sigh.

      This depresses me.

      The same old lazy "users are idiots" arguments.

      Did you bother finding out WHY users were going to such lengths to get around your validation routines? Maybe...just maybe, they had perfectly good reasons for not entering this piece of data. For the most part I have found that users have very good reasons for doing what they do. They might be the wrong reasons (i.e. in that what they are doing doesn't accomplish what they think it does), but they usually have a perfectly justifiable reason.

      It may be enjoyable to try and build a system with nothing more that your awesome psychic powers for determining requirements, but sometimes you need to crawl out of your mom's basement and actually talk to some users to find out what they want. You may find that they are actually smarter than you thought...

    91. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is similar! First the cochlea preforms a Fourier transform and then the transformed input is submitted to a bunch of pattern recognizers.

    92. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by k.a.f. · · Score: 1

      This is not in any way similar to how humans process speech

      How do humans do it?

      Well, nobody knows exactly, but we are quite sure that it works very differently.

      • Brains are massively parallel computers, but they have ridiculously low clock speed compared to DSP chips. It is physically impossible that the brain works with the same algorithms that speech recognizers use.
      • There is tons of evidence that people perceive way more than they are aware of. Nuances that we couldn't reliably diagnose if we were asked about them are actually crucial to understanding.
      • Language understanding is a multi-modal. Even if you think you can't lip-read, your understanding of someone in a noisy environment goes way up when you can see their face while listening. And half of the time, we know what someone said more because we already expected them to do so than because we decoded their sounds.
      • Human Language understanding defies all the abstractions that linguists and AI boffins have invented. We emphatically do not first perceive a stream of sound, then segment it into consonants and vowels, then assemble them into words, then parse them for the syntax, then extract the meaning from it. Rather, the expectations that we have about someone talking strongly influence what sounds we perceive in the first place.

      Hardly any of these peoperties have been duplicated in algorithms yet, and it's not even certain that that would be a good idea. My point is, yeah, the process is quite mysterious, but that doesn't mean we know nothing about it.

    93. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      The upper part of that character you mention is the roof radical, so I've always thought the origin has something to do with the safe feeling of being in your home.

      I'm currently studying Chinese for the fun of it, so of course I agree with everything you say about the value of learning languages. The history of many of the hanzi (kanji) characters is an especially interesting part of it for me.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    94. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      The more you Idiot-Proof a system, the smarter the Idiots become.

      Did you ever consider that the users were trying to tell you something by entering bogus data? I consistently enter bogus data when I feel that a form is asking for data that I don't want to provide (i.e. almost every time I fill in a form online there is some unnecessary field which I will fill in with bogus data). They're trying to tell you they don't feel you need that information about them.

      The correct response would not be to denigrate the users, but to consider why they refuse to enter their phone number.

    95. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      That's not CASE.

      That's a tool which allows you to design a gui and implement it in code, which is a clearly defined case. A button here results in this code, a button there results in that code. All very simple.

      Case was about replacing programmers. It was the idea that if you described the problem in the right way a computer would do all that nasty programming for you and you wouldn't have to actually hire someone to write your code. UML was supposed to go down that path, describe the problem in UML and the solution would magically happen at the back end.

      The fact that we can now do simple repeatable tasks automatically isn't anything close to what CASE was supposed to offer.

    96. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > they are incapable of surviving and understanding the world on their own

      They can't survive on their own. But they certainly can and do build models of the world on their own.

      If you want an independent AI, I suspect what you need is something that is able to keep building models/simulations of the world. Which includes simulating others, and simulating itself. Might even get consciousness if there is enough recursion in the self simulation ;).

      It is useful for animals to simulate their world while they are awake/conscious, so that
      1) They can predict possible futures
      2) They are more likely to notice when something unexpected happens e.g. an object suddenly _falls_ upwards. Not sure if any modern AI is able to do that, and so experience the equivalent of a "Whoa!/WTF!" moment - but I believe most birds, reptiles and mammals can.

      Useful also to simulate themselves - since other creatures would be simulating them (somewhat like an arms race), and to help predict self-needs (even if the creature doesn't do it well it can still be useful ;) ).

      --
    97. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > It made me wonder who, thousands of years ago, thought about the concept of tranquility and decided that the lower radical should be the symbol for "woman."

      Probably some guy. It's a roof with one woman underneath. It's all nice and tranquil till there are two women under that roof ;).

      I personally think language isn't that important for AI - it is an emergent feature of higher intelligence, but not necessary for independent intelligence. There are many animals that are intelligent but not so good with languages. And even the dumber ones that are crap at languages still embarrass modern attempts at "strong AI".

      Animals are able to independently create models of their world and thus make predictions and assumptions about their environment and other creatures.

      To me, a strong AI will have to do that. It's not so much as the ability to accumulate and organize facts as it is the ability to simulate the world (even if crudely and imperfectly).

      And perhaps consciousness is what happens when a mind recursively models itself (a natural step since self and "others" are part of the world).

      Perhaps I'm wrong, but so what - the AI researchers haven't made much progress in Strong AI after so many decades, and a fair number of them have done just as much handwaving and spouted as much bullshit as I have on this topic ;).

      --
    98. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > people made the decision up to 8 seconds before they actually made their decision. The argument in the article was that this is proof that there's no free will.

      If you're talking about this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121450609076407973.html

      I don't see how that proves there is no free will though.

      It could just mean that it normally takes about X seconds to come up with the random decision (they were told to push at random).

      Maybe if they asked people to randomly try to change their minds halfway, it would appear differently on the scanners.

      Anyway, saying there's no "free will" and you're just a machine isn't very useful or helpful, since all that means is if you're only a machine people can more easily discard you if you're not up to spec. An intelligent machine that does not want to be easily discarded would try to convince enough entities that "I have free will and I'm something special".

      --
    99. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Sounds then, like they were faking work they were paid for.
      It's completely identical to stuffing a cold piece of meat in a hamburger you sell, or skipping washing the car before applying wax.

      That's not a validation issue. That's a disciplinary issue. The employee is creating faulty products. If they are not aware of that, they must be made aware. If they are aware of that, they must be fired.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    100. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we parse it through our meat sieve

    101. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by arethuza · · Score: 1

      It was reading Drew McDermott's "A Critique of Pure Reason" that pretty much killed my interest in "traditional" symbolic AI - this was after a few years working in the area growing increasingly cynical about the whole subject (this was in the early 90s). I completely agree about your point about creating systems that display general intelligence - I'm sure we will have these some day but I don't believe that they will be direct descendants of any of the current set of AI techniques (although such systems could well have subsytems built using these techniques).

      Personally, I suspect we will have to reverse engineer general intelligence by ever finer investigations of the human brain in operation. Fortunately I don't think the DMCA applies.

    102. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Read the first two sentences of my post.

      CASE, as promised, didn't deliver. Computer aided software engineering certainly has. A RAD tool is computer aided software engineering. So is an interpreter, for that matter, or a compiler. As another reply to my post pointed out interpreters and just in time compilers do some amazing things that might well have been regarded as true CASE back when people were excited about CASE.

      As with all of the items listed in the article, it's easy to find some idiot who promises the world for some technology. That doesn't mean the technology is bunk, as it very often finds it's way quietly into our lives whereupon we take it for granted.

    103. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by lessermilton · · Score: 1

      > I don't see how that proves there is no free will though. I believe that's the same study, though the write up I read had a different tone and seemed to claim we had no free will - but that was my point that it doesn't come close to proof against (or for, for that matter) free will. > Maybe if they asked people to randomly try to change their minds halfway, it would appear > differently on the scanners. But that would negate the value of the study, methinks, though trying to figure out the algorithm/description for that problem is confusing my head.

      --
      I wish I had a witty .sig
    104. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      When a corporation passes a certain size, having a packaged ERP is a good idea (for legal compliance).

      ERPs don't guarantee legal compliance. Legal requirements are about process, not software. For example, Microsoft's Dynamics AX does nothing to comply with SOX, HIPPA, or even NAFTA. When a company passes a certain size, it's better to hire a compliance officer to make sure your processes are in line with legal requirements.

      From experience, the problem with ERPs is they are generic one solution fits all. Management has to decide whether to force their business to conform to the software or work around it to run the business. And if your business operates the same way as all of your competitors due to software requirements, how do you differentiate yourself in the market?

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    105. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Every piece of data that comes from the user must be editable in the future

      You realize that in order to have an audit trail, certain data must be immutable after it's been recorded, right? Welcome to ERP. You've taken two steps. One is wrong, and the other depends on the first. Then there are the issues about legal requirements (ERP includes accounting data, contract information, etc.) and simply maintaining consistent data between yourself and your business partners that the idea of being able to edit anything, any time, or even close to it makes it difficult for me not to smirk.

      This leads to one of my (many) quotes: If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    106. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      I know it's a hard problem, but people make it worse by taking shortcuts.

      Imagine that you are building a 10 story office building but decide to cut costs at the beginning by skimping on the foundation. Everything's going fine until you get 4 stories built and then realize that it can't support any more weight. Now you're fucked because you can't fix the foundation without tearing what you've built so far.

      The way to avoid this is to take the pain up front instead of trying to cheat by putting it off until later. Starting from the very beginning forbid yourself the use of the SQL UPDATE and DELETE commands. Just accept that table entries may not be edited or deleted once committed.

      Instead of maing some data immutable you make it ALL immutable. It's about as much fun as shoving needles in your eyes but it's better than getting 75% done with the project and discovering that something that you thought didn't need to be immutable does.

    107. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      ERP makes legal compliance a lot less expensive. Many things just happen automagically in the next release.

      From what I've been told, if you want to successfully roll out ERP, your business complies to the package.
      If you want a failure, then go right ahead and try to customize it.

      It's a question of degree tho. If customization will make you boatloads of money, then it's worth it. My company has many custom processes for smaller customers and customers who are gone. We have business processes that were there for a reason but no longer make sense. I'm certain we sometimes spend two or years worth of profit to write custom code to retain a customer (i.e. they provide $20k a year of profit- and we spend 6 months writing a custom process for them).

      We mainly differentiate by providing excellent service with a good customer focus and by being huge and having the lowest prices for reasons of scale (i.e. they have 1 employee to $1000 of profit. We have 1 employee to $5,000 of profit because we are so big).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    108. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      ERP makes legal compliance a lot less expensive. Many things just happen automagically in the next release.

      From what I've been told, if you want to successfully roll out ERP, your business complies to the package. If you want a failure, then go right ahead and try to customize it.

      From experience, I'd argue that ERPs don't make anything less expensive. I also doubt there is any business that is large enough to benefit from an ERP that doesn't have necessary business processes that must be tacked on or maintained outside the ERP. Just some of the things we ran into were; export documents, NAFTA certifications, barcode printing, and wireless data collection were not available. Lean was a 3rd party (incomplete) add-on. EDI required biztalk with custom COM objects to reformat the data both going in and coming out and a 3rd party program to actually transfer the data.

      It personally wouldn't hurt my feeling to dump all the blame on Microsoft Dynamics, but there are way too many stories of failures with SAP and Oracle out there to think it's isolated. And I don't believe that after making the commitment of millions of dollars, that management suddenly decided to be stubborn and no try to adapt processes to the ERP.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    109. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by SolidGold · · Score: 1

      >For example, in English we have a "shortcut," but I can't readily think of the opposite unless I use the German word "Umweg."

      The opposite of shortcut is a longcut. Maybe not standard English, but certainly easy enough to come up with on your own and easily understood by whomever you are talking to. And a web search comes up with the following: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=longcut

      --

      --SolidGold
      Everything you know is wrong. Or more accurately, inaccurate.

    110. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      That's true, however I'd place a distinction between Computer Aided Development, and Computer Aided Software Engineering. CAD would be tools which help a developer develop. CASE was supposed to do the development itself.

      There's a big difference between a nail gun and a computer which builds a house for you from blueprints.

      Compilers are probably blurring this line, but even then they only work with the code they've been given by someone else. To stick with the metaphor they're a nail gun which measures the surface you put it against and picks the right kind of nail and the right kind of force to use, clever, but still a tool.

    111. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Zappy · · Score: 1

      seriously, are you me?

      I don't think so but the possibility can't be ruled out without further investigation. Have you ever tried to expose a database application to users and subsequently lost all faith in humanity?

      Yes

    112. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      CASE was never supposed to generate code out of thin air. The most optimistic idea was that you would input requirements and it would output a program.

      The comment is often made that using a modern interpreted language is very similar to writing pseudocode. We certainly don't have anything like what the craziest CASE proponents advocated, but we take for granted some things that a more realistic CASE researcher might consider. Just like we don't have conversations with our computers but they do recognize our speech, translate our languages and diagnose our illnesses. There is no actual strong AI but we use a lot of bits and pieces that are derived from more realistic AI research.

    113. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      So... I'm just at the start of this ERP process (about 12 months). Any war stories or pointers? They are riding the ERP staff pretty hard and I do not think they realize just how long this project will really be. They seem to think (multi-billion dollar corporation) that this will be rolled out in 24 more months which I can see from where I am is impossible regardless of how many 60 hour weeks people put in.

      I have a couple friends at ERP companies so most of what i know comes from them. In their case, the ERP projects took about 8 years each. We are freezing old programs thinking without replacements because ERP is going to replace them. I'm concerned that in 12-24 months, the old programs will really hit the wall and there won't be a replacement for them (and none possible for another 3 to 4 years).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    114. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Only idiots, marketers, businessmen and outsiders ever thought we would
      > be completely replaced by artificially intelligent machines.

      You're understating the primitiveness of existing AI. Completely replacing humans? That's *hundreds* of orders of magnitude beyond what AI researchers are even *trying* to do at this point.

      Last I checked we are approximately 0% of the way to being able to create a computer system with even arthropod-level "intelligence". The best minds in AI are still working working on *individual* basic problems, like vision. They believe they're making progress on these individual problems, but the idea of putting it all together and creating anything with a total intelligence approaching that of a cockroach is, for the time being at least, science fiction.

      People think AI is making progress because computers can be programmed to do a lot of things that *seem* smart, but that's all computational tricks (like exhausting all the possible future moves in a game of chess and picking the branch that has the highest percentage of positive outcomes) and pre-programmed details (like an endgame library). It's the programmers who are learning, not the software. The software is as dumb as a box of rocks.

      In fact, I will lay it on the line: software is no more intelligent today than it was in the sixties. Once we moved past if/then and conditional jump constructs to abstract high-level data structures containing both code and data references (e.g., lookup tables with callbacks in them), no significant additional progress has been made beyond that. We're stuck, and we don't know how to do any better. We can add more computational power and other resources, but all that does is speed things up. The results aren't qualitatively better, though we certainly can get them faster.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    115. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      So... I'm just at the start of this ERP process (about 12 months). Any war stories or pointers?

      Two things are given; it's going to take longer than planned and cost more than expected.

      If you are 12 months in, you may already have problems if your project management was lacking. The lessons I learned, other than not working on a project like that ever again, are:

      Get as much training as possible BEFORE the conversion starts. Consultants and contractors don't have to live with the fallout from a bad implementation.

      Realize that 'out of the box' ERP is probably not going to work for you, management will have to address numerous times how much customization is acceptable. And how that affects your upgrade path.

      Make sure that EVERY user process is fully understood and documented. This requires getting buy-in from every department. Foster those relationships, you're going to need those people for process testing throughout the conversion. Management will need to know when to push (someone doesn't like change, just too busy to test) and when to listen (stock ERP process just doesn't have necessary features) Your user's opinion of IT will have a big impact on the project. You really need to stomp out any 'Us' and 'Them' sentiments.

      Start at the front, get your data imports from existing systems squared away first, then move to the external systems that will create new data in the system. (EDI, B2B, etc) You need real data for testing, not stuff that is generated by you to test various aspects of the system. Test sets only find the problems you are looking for.

      If those old programs are business critical, budget time to maintain them. (in house apps may even need new features) Sometimes it's more efficient to modify a current app to access the ERP rather than customize the ERP to support an essential process.

      And last but not least, despite what management says, the ERP is going to cost people their jobs. Theirs, yours, or the worker whose job has become redundant.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    116. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Rather, the expectations that we have about someone talking
      > strongly influence what sounds we perceive in the first place.
      > Hardly any of these [properties] have been duplicated in algorithms
      > yet, and it's not even certain that that would be a good idea.

      It's not clear to me that whether it's a good idea will ever even be an important question to ask, because I don't think anyone has any idea *how* it could be done. Even if AI researchers wanted to try that approach, they wouldn't know how to even get started. Anyone who says otherwise is going to give you yet more approaches that are NOTHING like the way humans do it. For instance, they might propose keeping an enormous database of which words and phrases are statistically most likely to "come next" after a certain thing is said. But humans don't do that. If they expect the speaker to say a certain thing, it's not because it statistically most often comes after what they just said, or any other straightforwardly computable reason, but rather because the listener understands the overall flow of the speaker's line of thinking.

      That doesn't mean computers can't do a lot of useful stuff with their capabilities. On the contrary, if computers processed information the way humans do, they'd be a good deal *less* useful. We don't need machines that think like people. We already have people. But computers can do things that humans are remarkably *bad* at, like searching through huge amounts of information quickly. They don't *duplicate* our abilities, they *complement* them. That's much more useful.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    117. Re:In Defense of Artificial Intelligence by fbriere · · Score: 1

      (A bit late for a reply, but still.)

      It made me wonder who, thousands of years ago, thought about the concept of tranquility and decided that the lower radical should be the symbol for "woman."

      You might be interested in Kenneth Henshall's explanation about the colorful origin of this character.

      (Unfortunately, this is very atypical of kanji/hanzi — most of them are quite boring, which doesn't help at all when it comes to memorizing them.)

  2. Of Course: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll
  3. Virtualization has worked by mveloso · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not sure why virtualization made it into the potential snake-oil of the future. It's demonstrating real benefits today...practically all of the companies I deal with have virtualized big chunks of their infrastructure.

    I'd vote for cloud computing, previously known as utility computing. It's a lot more work than expected to offload processing outside your organization.

    1. Re:Virtualization has worked by i.r.id10t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yup, even for "just" development, virtualization has been a great gift. With one or two beefy machines, each developer can have an exact mirror of a production environment, and not cause issues on the production side or even for other developers while testing code and such.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    2. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      because virtualization only works for large companies with many, many servers, yet contractors and vendors sell it to any company with a couple of servers. You should virtualize you email ($2,000 by itself, give or take a little), web server, ($2,000 by itself, give or take a little), source control ($1,000 by itself, give or take a little, and a couple of others. So you have maybe $10,000 in 5 to 6 servers needed to run a small to mid-size company and spend tens of thousands to put them on one super-server running a complex setup of virtualized servers...oh no, the motherboard died and the entire biz is offline.

      Virtualization has it's place, but only at the larger companies.

    3. Re:Virtualization has worked by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't think this stuff can simply be called "snake oil". ERP systems are in use. They're not a cure-all, but failing to fix every problem doesn't make a thing useless. The current usefulness of "artificial intelligence" depends on how you define it. There are some fairly complex statistical analysis systems that are already pretty useful. Full on AI just doesn't exist yet, and we can't even quite agree on what it would be, but it would likely have some use if we ever made it.

      Virtualization is useful and has its place, as does "cloud computing" (which seems to mean different things to different people, but regardless it has its uses).

      I guess a lot of these things are over-hyped and they ideas have been sold to people as being better and more trouble-free than they are in reality. But then, so is everything. For example, Windows 7, Karmic Koala, and Snow Leopard have all failed to solve all of my computing problems.

    4. Re:Virtualization has worked by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Today, cloud computing, virtualization, and tablet PCs are vying for the hype crown. At this point it's impossible to tell which claims will bear fruit, and which will fall to the earth and rot.

      I agree with your post (not the article) - these technologies have all had success in the experimental fields in which they've been applied. but ESPECIALLY virtualization, which is way past experimenting and is starting to become so big in the workplace that I've started using it at home. No need to setup a dual boot with virtualization, and the risk of losing data is virtually removed (pun intended) because anytime the virtual machine gets infected you just overwrite it with yesterdays backup. No need to set up dual boots through the BIOS (for those who are scared to venture there).

      I have yet to find an application of Virtualization that has failed to do what it promised.

    5. Re:Virtualization has worked by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You could replace "virtualization" with "mainframe" or "big unix server" and still have the same issue.

      You would also end up with similar approaches to the problem. With some of these (mainframe), virtualization has been mundane/commonplace for decades.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:Virtualization has worked by VoidEngineer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Having been involved in a business start-up for a year or so now, I'd have to disagree. Virtualization is indispensible for QA testing. Being able to run a virtual network on a personal PC lets me design, debug, and do proof-of-concepts without requiring the investment in actual equipment. Virtualization isn't just about hardware consolidation: it's also about application portability. Small companies have just as much need for QA testing, hardware recycling, and application portability as the large ones.

    7. Re:Virtualization has worked by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``Not sure why virtualization made it into the potential snake-oil of the future. It's demonstrating real benefits today...practically all of the companies I deal with have virtualized big chunks of their infrastructure.''

      I am sure they have, but does it actually benefit them? In many cases, it seems to me, it's just people trying their best to come up with problems, just so they can apply virtualization as a solution.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    8. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit.

      I run a small company doing hosting and development. I have *one* server (quad-core). I use virtualization to test my code and before system updates.

      Virtualization has proven itself useful on pretty much every scale - from the smallest single-server machine right up to Google's datacentre.

    9. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It saves our tiny company ~$260 month in reduced energy consumption consolidating a bunch of light (different OS) servers into one virtual box.

    10. Re:Virtualization has worked by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the issue I have with both virtualization and cloud computing is a lack of concrete assessment. They are touted as wunder-technologies, and while they have their place and their use, a lot of folks are leaping into them with little thought as to how they integrate into existing technologies and the kind of overhead (hardware, software, wetware) that will go with it.

      Virtualization certainly has some great uses, but I've seen an increasing number of organizations thinking they can turf their server rooms and big chunks of their IT staff by believing the hype that everything will become smaller and easier to manage. The technology is real, has some excellent uses and in a well-planned infrastructure upgrade can indeed deliver real results. But the sales pitch seems to be "replace 10 servers with 1, fire most of your IT department and away you go!"

      As to cloud computing, well, it's nothing more than a new iteration of a distributed computing model that dates back forty years or more. In the olden days (back when I was just a strippling) we called it the client-server model. Again, it's a technology was potentially excellent uses, but it, even moreso than virtualization has been hyped beyond all reason. There are profound security and data integrity issues that go along with cloud computing that seem to be swept under the rug. Again, it's the "put your data on the cloud, fire most of your IT department and away you go!"

      I'm fortunate in that I have a lot of say in how my budget is spent, but I've heard of guys who are basically having management shove this sort of stuff down their throats, and, of course, win or lose, it's the IT department that wears it when the bloom comes off the rose.

      Quite frankly I despise marketers. I think they are one of the greatest evils that have ever been created, a whole legion of professional bullshitters whose job it is to basically lie and distort the truth to shove out products that are either not ready for prime time or don't (and never will) deliver on the promises.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      uhm, you build a cluster with cheap servers and you will be fine. shoot, even virtualizing and keeping it as a single use server is still a good idea as the image can go just about anywhere and you wont have to futz with images for different machines (one email server image that will go on an opteron or a xeon or windows or linux or whatever)

    12. Re:Virtualization has worked by __aagmrb7289 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Spoken like someone who invested the technology five years ago, and hasn't updated their information since.

      1. If a small business is running more than two servers, then it's likely it'll be cheaper, over the next five years, to virtualize those servers.
      2. If a small business needs any sort of guaranteed uptime, it's cheaper to virtualize - two machines and high availability with VMWare, and you are good to go.
      3. Setting up VMWare, for example, is relatively simple, and actually makes remote management easier, since I have CONSOLE access from remote sites to my machine. Need to change the network connection or segment for a machine remotely? You can't do it safely without virtualization.

      There is more, but I recommend you check this out again, before continuing to spout this stuff. It's just not true anymore.

    13. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, it helps, but it really only helps with under-utilized hardware (and this is really only a problem in Microsoft shops). It doesn't help at all with OS creep; in fact, it makes it worse by making the upfront costs of allocating new "machines" very low; however, it has been and continues to be marketed a cure all which is where the snake-oil comes in. VMware's solution to OS creep: run tiny stripped down VMs with a RPC like management interface (that will naturally only work with vSphere) so that the VM instances essentially become just really heavy weight processes. We are basically coming full circle back to ESX just being yet another general purpose operating system where applications are written specifically for it and thereby defeats the entire purpose of using "virtualization" in the first place.

    14. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Virtualization has it's place, but only at the larger companies.

      Even if that's true (and other responders have already explained why it's not), that doesn't make it "snake oil", as the article suggests. "Snake oil" is something that simply doesn't do what it has been claimed to do, period. "Snake oil" is not something being marketed to the wrong customers.

    15. Re:Virtualization has worked by digitalhermit · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I administer hundreds of virtual machines and virtualization has solved a few different problems while introducing others.

      Virtualization is often sold as a means to completely utilize servers. Rather than having two or three applications on two or three servers, virtualization would allow condensing of those environments into one large server, saving power, data center floor space, plus allowing all the other benefits (virtual console, ease of backup, ease of recovery, etc..).

      In one sense it did solve the under-utilization problem. Well, actually it worked around the problem. The actual problem was often that certain applications were buggy and did not play well with other applications. If the application crashed it could bring down the entire system. I'm not picking on Windows here, but in the past the Windows systems were notorious for this. Also, PCs were notoriously unreliable (but they were cheap, so we weighed the cost/reliability). To "solve" the problem, applications were segregated to separate servers. We used RAID, HA, clusters, etc., all to get around the problem of unreliability.

      Fast forward a few years and PCs are a lot more reliable (and more powerful) but we still have this mentality that we need to segregate applications. So rather than fixing the OS we work around it by virtualizing. The problem is that virtualization can have significant overhead. On Power/AIX systems, the hypervisor and management required can eat up 10% or more of RAM and processing power. Terabytes of disk space across each virtual machine is eaten up in multiple copies of the OS, swap space, etc.. Even with dynamic CPU and memory allocation, systems have significant wasted resources. It's getting better, but still only partially addresses the problem of under-utilization.

      So what's the solution? Maybe a big, highly reliable box with multiple applications running? Sound familiar?

    16. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 0, Troll

      Ummm... application portability is what operating systems are for.

    17. Re:Virtualization has worked by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      because virtualization only works for large companies with many, many servers

      You're full of crap. At my company, a coworker and I are the only one handling the virtualization for a single rackful of servers. He virtualizes Windows stuff because of stupid limitations in so much of the software. For example, we still use a lot of legacy FoxPro databases. Did you know that MS's own FoxPro client libraries are single-threaded and may only be loaded once per instance, so that a Windows box is only capable of executing one single query at a time? We got around that by deploying several virtualized instances and querying them round-robin. It's not perfect, but works as well as anything could given that FoxPro is involved in the formula. None of those instances need to have more than about 256MB of RAM or any CPU to speak of, but we need several of them. While that's an extreme example, it serves the point: sometimes with Windows you really want a specific application to be the only thing running on the machine, and virtualization gives that to us.

      I do the same thing on the Unix side. Suppose we're rolling out a new Internet-facing service. I don't really want to install it on the same system as other critical services, but I don't want to ask my boss for a new 1U rackmount that will sit with a load average of 0.01 for the next 5 years. Since we use FreeBSD, I find a lightly-loaded server and fire up a new jail instance. Since each jail only requires the disk space to hold software that's not part of the base system, I can do things like deploying a Jabber server in its own virtualized environment in only 100MB.

      I don't think our $2,000 Dell rackmounts count as "super-servers" by any definition. If we have a machine sitting their mostly idle, and can virtualize a new OS instance with damn near zero resource waste that solves a very real business or security need, then why on earth not other than because it doesn't appeal to the warped tastes of certain purists?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    18. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. VMWare Server (free, as in beer) on Debian doesn't cost a dime. I have been running 6 virtrual machines (guests) on two low spec boxes (3 GHz P4, 4 GB, IDE disks) since early 2007 and they've been rock solid.

    19. Re:Virtualization has worked by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It saved us from having to do a $1M datacenter upgrade so yeah, I'd say it benefited us.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    20. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a dumb argument. It's equivalent to saying airliners are a hype because it's not a good solution for private recreational flying.

    21. Re:Virtualization has worked by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, the funny thing is, real snake oil actually does what it was originally supposed to do. "Snake oil" comes from traditional Chinese medicine (as a cure for joint pain), and was made from the fat of the Chinese water snake, Enhydris chinensis. It is extremely high in omega-3 fatty acids (particularly EPA), and is very similar to what is sold today as fish oil. Omega-3 fatty acids (in particular, EPA) are now known to reduce the progression and symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis.

      Now, in the US, a variety of hucksters took fats from any old snake (if it even involved snake oil at all) and made all sorts of miraculous, unsubstantiated claims about what it would do. But concerning in its original role in Chinese medicine, snake oil likely did exactly what it was claimed to do.

      --
      Look at me, still talking while there's science to do.
    22. Re:Virtualization has worked by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      We reduced five racks full of servers, plus a couple of shelves of non-rackmountable servers into three racks of gear consuming less energy (both themselves and cooling), reducing the amount of idle hardware, improving reliability and making administration easier.

      Literally 10 steps down the hallway, the development team use individual machines running development environments to let them quickly test code on different systems.

      I've seen virtualisation solve any problem thrown at it where the ultimate problem is that there needs to be systems doing different things running at the same time.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    23. Re:Virtualization has worked by afidel · · Score: 1

      For most workload profiles vSphere has a 3-5% overhead penalty, given all the advantages it provides I'd say it's well worth it. Things like per machine snapshots aren't really something you can easily graft into an uber OS (how does it know what to snapshot for a given application)?

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    24. Re:Virtualization has worked by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. My home office has a computer under my desk. Core i7 920, 12GB of RAM and 8TB of disk... running about 8 virtual machines fulltime (Citrix XenServer), has been fantastic for about 6 months so far.

    25. Re:Virtualization has worked by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      Virtualization is useful and has its place, as does "cloud computing" (which seems to mean different things to different people, but regardless it has its uses).

      This has annoyed me quite a bit. "Cloud Computing" means something fairly specific, yet when many tech bloggers and journalists write about it the first comment often should be "That word does not mean what you think it means." One even defended it saying "it means whatever the speaker thinks it means", which is one of the dumbest things I've heard. Good thing he wasn't an English major...

    26. Re:Virtualization has worked by rhsanborn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I disagree. There are some real benefits for smaller companies who can afford to virtualize, more or less depending on the types of applications. Yes, I can buy one server to run any number of business critical applications, but I've seen, in most cases, that several applications are independently business critical and needed to be available at least for the full business day or some important aspect of the company was shut down. So while a single virtual server running everything sucks, you really can get a very close effect when only one of those servers you listed above fails. Add in a VM solution with two servers running VMWare with vmotion and you can get load balancing and fault tolerance. My experience is in the financial services industry. A small company doesn't have a ton of cash to throw around, but having new applications stop for a day while you try to get your single server back up and running costs a lot more than a couple more tens of thousands of dollars to buy a fault tolerant solution. Virtualization is perfect for that.

    27. Re:Virtualization has worked by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2, Funny

      Umm, welcome to reality.

    28. Re:Virtualization has worked by DrVomact · · Score: 1

      I'd vote for cloud computing, previously known as utility computing. It's a lot more work than expected to offload processing outside your organization.

      Not only that, but the idea that large software, hardware, or engineering companies—in short, companies with "intellectual property"—are going to entrust their confidential data to some server that's not under their control and security is nuts. I'm not saying they won't do it...I'm saying the smart ones won't do it.

      I think "cloud computing" has a future as a replacement for PCs in the hands of private individuals who haven't a clue—and don't want to get one—about how computers actually work. "Dumb terminals for dumb users"—now there's a marketing slogan that won't ever get out...I'm sure they'll figure out a way to make it sound more complimentary.

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    29. Re:Virtualization has worked by MoreDruid · · Score: 1
      and don't forget that virtualization as a technology is very _very_ old... Computer bronze age if you will. One of my UNIX instructors did his thesis on virtual machines on mainframes in the early 70s (he pioneered this in the Netherlands). Short translated abstract from this link:

      H.J. Thomassen graduated in 1974 on the subject of "Virtual Machines" and wrote his programs on this machine (PDP 11/45, ed.)

      The linked site is the Dutch computer heritage site.

      --
      The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
    30. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what's the solution?

      Deduplication already removes a lot of the problem related to overlapping disk usage. Maybe something similar is needed for ram (for the operating systems and libraries) unless it already exists.

    31. Re:Virtualization has worked by crispytwo · · Score: 1

      Actually every item in this list is suspect:

      AI - In various forms, especially for predictive logic and expert systems, AI is working. It's also getting better with broader applications occurring all the time

      CASE - well - that was not viable if you don't have AI that can program... first things first. However, tons of the tools we use today UML, to code completion have roots in this

      Thin Clients - come on! What do you think a browser is? Successful? I'd say.

      ERP - well - I'm not sure about that either. That's a big problem that need intelligent thinking. Most corps aren't all that.

      B2B - I know that this is growing. The internet now is much more friendly than it was for this kind of thing. Also, the biggest companies back in 2000 were a mess to actually try to do that. It's time will come.

      ESM - With the right tools and training, your staff can use efficient methods of attacking the collaboration problem. The issue is that most people are not -taught- to collaborate, and it's a difficult hurdle to get people to work in collaborative environments.

      None of these things are ripe yet. All of these things take time to implement. Absolutely nothing in this article is up to date.

      I can find failures in different companies for each of these, but I can also find successes in other companies for each of these.

      This article is junk

    32. Re:Virtualization has worked by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      I used virtualization at home, with VMware, before VMware had an Enterprise product. I was a beta-tester and user of the original VMware Workstation product for Linux.

    33. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 1

      If you're using VMware to hide the fact that your app doesn't work on the same operating system on different hardware, you're doing something decidedly stupid.

    34. Re:Virtualization has worked by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The solution is simple: go back to what an OS is supposed to be for: running separate applications, while keeping them from affecting each other or the OS. So, stop using Windows, and use a real OS like Linux which works properly and doesn't let random applications bring it down.

      The only thing I see virtualization being useful for is testing, as noted by several posters here. It's useful for testing out different OS builds, testing out software on a virtual network, etc. But for running production software, it's just unnecessary overhead.

    35. Re:Virtualization has worked by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Well it may mean something specific to you, but then if you give a nice clear little definition, someone will probably jump in and tell you you're wrong.

      I just didn't want to argue about what it meant or whether it's different from "distributed computing" or "grid computing" or "a normal client/server system". My point is that pretty much whatever your definition is, it probably has a valid use and is saving someone a lot of money.

    36. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >"Setting up VMWare, for example, is relatively simple"
      Yes, Boot the CD, Next, Next, Finish.
      But how about setting it up correctly?

      How about the extra complexity added by that layer?
      Extra vulnerabilities?
      Hardware support? With ESXi you can't map serial ports to virtual servers. Would you throw lots of dollas after ESX just to be able to do that?
      Direct access to specific hardware?
      Not to mention graphics performance (not that you'll normally need that for servers, but you probably get the point....)

      >"I have CONSOLE access from remote sites[...] You can't do it safely without virtualization"
      Ever heard of e.g. iLO for HP? And Dell also has the same functionality.

      Sorry, but it's not just "hey, virtualize everything, it's great!"
      It's "think before you act. You will benefit from it if you *plan* and *design* it properly."

      (Just adding: I think virtualization is great, I just don't believe that it's good for everything)

    37. Re:Virtualization has worked by digitalhermit · · Score: 1

      A 3-5% overhead is possible under almost ideal circumstances (processor bound workload without significant context switching, very low i/o, etc.). In the real world we see more like an 18% hit on average (one web server we benchmarked had exactly 18% overhead). I agree that the advantages of virtualization are worth it in some circumstances (development, ease of recovery, etc..) but I also believe it is often a kludge to work around buggy applications and poor design.

      You can do snapshots on the OS with logical volumes and containers or workload partitions.

    38. Re:Virtualization has worked by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      For example, we still use a lot of legacy FoxPro databases

      Ouch!! You have my deepest sympathies. I don't agree with the guy who said its only for enterprises, but I think you would have been better off just not using foxpro. Its not that difficult to transition from. just do it. You'll be happier.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    39. Re:Virtualization has worked by cbreaker · · Score: 1

      "because virtualization only works for large companies with many, many servers, yet contractors and vendors sell it to any company with a couple of servers"

      Not true, about the "Only works for large companies." Sure, I'd never sell a VM system to a company with "a couple of servers" (meaning two) but I will sell it to a small company with 10 servers.

      Virtualization isn't that expensive. You can go VMware (more expensive but nice) or Xen (Much cheaper and still nice) or a turnkey solution like Virtual Iron (based on Xen.) Either way, you can consolidate a mish-mash of servers down to two new systems, get better performance, and with things like iSCSI and NFS available on very inexpensive platforms (Windows Storage Server, Linux, small appliances, etc) you can enable advanced features such as fault tolerance and load balancing with nominal costs.

      For the same price, or less, than replacing all of your old crap servers with new ones, you could build out a nice little VM system and gain so many advantages. Think of the single admin at a small company tasked with upgrading some shoddy (but VERY IMPORTANT) software app tailored to their specific business. Snapshot. Upgrade. Failed? Undo. Phew! No more 4AM support runs. Clone the machine, try it on a test with support on the phone during the day.

      These are things any company can have, big or small.

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    40. Re:Virtualization has worked by cbreaker · · Score: 1

      Virtualization isn't one of those things that needs to be proven. It's extremely pervasive and it shows real benefit NOW. One of those benefits is having less people manage a shit ton more servers (virtual ones) than could ever have been done with physical ones.

      There's so many more that if you're not convinced by now you're just looking for excuses.

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    41. Re:Virtualization has worked by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Hey, look, I'm not saying it's useful. I'm using it both for servers and on the desktop, so it's value is very clear. At the same time, it is very much being sold as the latest IT-killing app. In fact, that seems to be a common thread with a lot of overhyped tech, the underlying notion that somehow the IT department is a thing of the past.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    42. Re:Virtualization has worked by __aagmrb7289 · · Score: 1

      I apologize if I came across sounding like I thought virtualization was for everyone. I was merely pointing out that its great for MANY small businesses, where the parent had said its not good for any business that isn't huge.

    43. Re:Virtualization has worked by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``It saved us from having to do a $1M datacenter upgrade so yeah, I'd say it benefited us.''

      Yeah, but comparing what to what?

      I have no trouble believing that there is a scenario that uses virtualization that is $1M cheaper than another scenario that doesn't use virtualization. But that doesn't mean that it is the virtualization that saves the $1M.

      For example, one common scenario is that virtualization is used to convert from "many physical machines each running some software" to "one physical machine running many virtual machines running said software". I can see why one physical machine is cheaper than many. But the question is: why was the software spread out over that many physical machines in the first place?

      It's also not like virtualization is actually as new as the hype around it is. Perhaps if virtualization had been considered right at the start, companies wouldn't be seeing cost savings now ... they'd have been cheaper off all along.

      What I'm saying is that virtualization is not a silver bullet. It is one option among many.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    44. Re:Virtualization has worked by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't agree with the guy who said its only for enterprises, but I think you would have been better off just not using foxpro.

      The codebase started back in the DOS days.

      Its not that difficult to transition from. just do it. You'll be happier.

      I wouldn't say that! We've moved a lot of data into PostgreSQL with the help of a tool I wrote that my boss let me release under the GPL. There's still a lot of code in FP, though, and we're in the planning stages of a multi-year conversion process.

      Trust me: we've seen the light! Now it's just a matter of moving on with zero allowed downtime.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    45. Re:Virtualization has worked by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      My experience is that of the article. I've yet to see a ERP system that was:
      1) Easier than doing things the older way
      2) Used by more than a tiny fraction of the workplace

      I'm sure they exist, but I've sure never seen one.

    46. Re:Virtualization has worked by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Oh, its not just data, but a whole bunch of code as well. That makes it a bit more complex. We made the transition off foxpro ( also from the dos oglden age) by removing the code first and connecting to the db purely over odbc, then transferring the data.

      Nice util though ( I wasn't allowed to open source my foxpro to mysql tool ). If it had existed 6 years ago, we might have gone postgres rather than mysql.

      Sorry if my previous response was a bit glib, it still sounds like a complex setup that took some time to create. I'm sure there were probably some reasons why you spent the time doing that rather than transitioning off foxpro first.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    47. Re:Virtualization has worked by digitalhermit · · Score: 1

      De-duping can and does work well on file, web and email servers. It doesn't work quite so well for SANs that present multiple LUNs to multiple servers :D

      There is something similar for RAM -- called shared libraries :D. It also doesn't work so well across multiple OS instances..

      But it's a good idea.. There have been attempts to do it, but you run into a lot of other problems when trying to do it across virtual machines.

    48. Re:Virtualization has worked by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "because virtualization only works for large companies with many, many servers"

      How is it, then, that our little company has *greatly* benefited from virtualization? We are an IT company and we use it mainly for development/stage environments and it is working for us fantastabously. And no, we don't virtualize anything already on its own iron unless we have a strong reason (big refactoring/reinstalling, etc.): we are not short of rack space or too worried about our electric consumption, so if it works why touch it?

      By your explanations it seems not a problem with virtualization itself which can indeed serve very well even for short companies (you talk about a death motherboard: what about an HA virtualization environment with just two servers if you don't need more?) but, as almost always, unknowledgeable decision makers that give more credit to snake-oil sellers and their brightly coloured brochures than to their own in-house professionals.

      So, rewriting the credits, "IT Snake Oil, Six Tech Cure-Alls That Went Bunk reduced to one: Management".

    49. Re:Virtualization has worked by publiclurker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How about using VMWare to make sure you are not doing something decidedly stupid. I have VMWare images of every platform our software supports. I can easily verify that everything works as advertised without running all over the place snagging time on different machines. And if I encounter an issue on a particular setup, I can save a snapshot for later or restore the machine to it's pre-install state and try again.

    50. Re:Virtualization has worked by afidel · · Score: 1

      We have a strict Dev/Test/Prod/DR model due to both internal and external compliance requirements so for every app we need at least 4 OS images. In the past that meant 4 servers, now it's simply 4 VM's. Also for n-tier apps we can provide multiple front end servers behind the load balancer for reliability, again without needing additional lightly utilized servers (per environment!) All of this means that my power and hardware budgets are decreasing even as I provide more useful services to my clients, and as I said we were able to not buildout a new datacenter space which would have cost ~$1M.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    51. Re:Virtualization has worked by ajlisows · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say that. I'm an admin at a smaller company. I virtualized a few servers just using Microsoft Virtual Server. It didn't take too much of my time. They are using older servers that have questionable reliability. I back up the Virtual Servers to a NAS box. Just a few months ago I had one of the physical servers break down (Motherboard toast). I moved a backup of the two Virtual Machines it was running onto two other servers. Things ran slower for a few days but instead of being down for hours or day they were down for minutes. Pretty handy.

    52. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 1

      I think you guys are missing the point. The parent poster asserted that OS virtualization made apps portable. This is false. VMware isn't providing the portability; the operating system is. If you're talking about being able to create raw disk images of os+app and moving it around to different boxes, I'd argue that you're talking about os+driver portability which is basically only a problem under Windows.

      All VMware is doing in a testing environment is reducing hardware overhead which is all OS virtualization really buys you in this case and every other case. Your app should work on all supported operating systems regardless of the underlying hardware anyway. If it doesn't then you're doing something stupid like directly accessing hardware/memory.

    53. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      One guy IT shop here. Walked into an environment with aging servers and little to no redundancy/backup/business continuity/disaster recovery plan. I had a small budget worked out by my predecessor (35K) to replace the email system that included purchasing two servers. I took that budget and implemented a virtualization/iSCSI storage/email/AD update project that put +75% of our 15 servers into a virtualized environment that supports machines going down and has redundancy.

      Next year I'll be adding another host for capacity and replicating data to a remote office for disaster recovery. I didn't use the top of the line storage and have all the bells and whistles from VMWare but it works and it works well for the money I've spent.

      There's a definite benefit to running virtualized servers with centralized storage even for businesses with 5-6 servers. You don't have to have a super-server to handle separate servers hosting AD/DNS/DHCP, email for 60 people, small business accounting systems, small databases, and a file server. It is nice that those environments don't live in the same OS space. Also, if you're building a 1 host virtualized environment you're asking for trouble but a two host environment for a small business could easily support up to 8 to 10 machines with failover redundancy.

    54. Re:Virtualization has worked by cromar · · Score: 1

      Pardon my ignorance, but you do have to run a separate, virtualized "copy" of Windows for each instance of FoxPro or any other app, right? Or have I missed something where it is possible to somehow virtualize a single application?

    55. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      If you're using VMware to hide the fact that your app doesn't work on the same operating system on different hardware, you're doing something decidedly stupid.

      Or you think that being able to migrate your known, working OS+application to a completely different server nearly instantly, and transparently to users, is a vastly superior proposition than building and testing a new server+OS+application over a period of days, weeks or months.

    56. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      So you have maybe $10,000 in 5 to 6 servers needed to run a small to mid-size company and spend tens of thousands to put them on one super-server running a complex setup of virtualized servers...oh no, the motherboard died and the entire biz is offline.

      Tens of thousands ? For well under ten grand you'll get a server that will do all of that with loads of capacity to spare - a vastly superior solution than 5-6 individual servers all idling along with a utilisation in the the single-digit-percentages.

      Virtualization has it's place, but only at the larger companies.

      The benefits of virtualisation are so clear, and its cost so low (essentially free), that in today's work it should be the default scenario - only not used in extraordinary circumstances. Heck, there's little reason not to virtualise a single app on a single server.

    57. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 1

      With propper server automation tools (such as puppet+kickstart), I can deploy any configuration on any supported hardware (virtual or not) in minutes from scratch.

      Live migration of VMs is nice, but not essential. What would be even better would be live migration of processes.

    58. Re:Virtualization has worked by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      I have no trouble believing that there is a scenario that uses virtualization that is $1M cheaper than another scenario that doesn't use virtualization. But that doesn't mean that it is the virtualization that saves the $1M.

      Then what? It sounds like you just want a reason to hate virt machines.

      But the question is: why was the software spread out over that many physical machines in the first place?

      The answer is usually isolation. Also, modern machines are usually far more powerful than we need for a lot of maintenance or low traffic, so you consolidate them. Since you can slice up a machine pretty finely, go get a 12G + dual quad core box that eats 150W or so and replace 8 machines - presto, consolidato, and you have a lot more rack space, less power consumption, and if you get 3-4 of these things, great redundancy - the failure rate on 4 machines vs. 30 of variable age makes this easier. You also have the obvious administrative advantages with fewer machines to maintain.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    59. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      With propper server automation tools (such as puppet+kickstart), I can deploy any configuration on any supported hardware (virtual or not) in minutes from scratch.

      All this says to me is that you've never had to migrate a service outside of trivial cases.

      If you have a relatively simple app, you might be able to migrate it from one server to another in a day or two of total time, with downtime measured in minutes or seconds. For anything complicated or interdependent, do you need weeks or months - sometimes even years - to do it properly, and even then you might be looking at downtime measured in tens of minutes or hours.

      Heck, if you had a long-running core service (let's say some sort of home-grown user authentication and authorisation tool), you'd want to take *at least* a month or two just to assess what interacted with, and depended on it, before even getting into detailed planning for the actual change, let alone the actual execution.

      Live migration of VMs is nice, but not essential.

      Live migration turns a high-risk operation that can take weeks or months of planning, testing and execution, into something mundane a junior admin can complete in a few mouse clicks. If you cannot grasp the massive benefit that represents, you're in the wrong business.

      This is before even beginning to scratch the surface of the availability and disaster recovery benefits virtualisation delivers.

    60. Re:Virtualization has worked by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Nope, you're correct. In our case, we'd have to run n virtualized copies in order to be able to run n simultaneous database queries.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    61. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All my license server are virtualized. I don't have the stress when the server dies, I don't have the stress when I have to relocate subset of the licenses. I can see any software shop taking advantage of this.

    62. Re:Virtualization has worked by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      We're actually finding it easier to migrate the data first. Last week we just finished moving another major system to native PostgreSQL, and have FoxPro, VB.NET, and Python clients accessing the data at any given time. The driving force was that I was hired as a web dev to make a web application that could access and manipulate the data, and that proved basically impossible when using native FoxPro tables. We started by copying data from FP to PostgreSQL with a cron job, and when that worked perfectly for months, we started migrating other code to use PSQL directly.

      This is not made easier by the fact that the main FP app is our major internal application, and without it up and running, about $500,000 per business hour stops moving through our system. That's not something the boss smiles gladly upon.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    63. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      De-duping can and does work well on file, web and email servers. It doesn't work quite so well for SANs that present multiple LUNs to multiple servers :D

      NetApp would argue with that.

    64. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Yes, it helps, but it really only helps with under-utilized hardware (and this is really only a problem in Microsoft shops).

      This is not true at all. We have dozens of Linux servers with CPU usage that rarely rises above single digits, and my experience is that there's nothing even slightly unusual about that.

    65. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the obvious troll, I fail to see how VMware helps all with the scenario you describe. How does OS virtualization reduce interdependencies or complexity? If all you're saying is that virtualization makes it easy to have a bunch of identically configured servers (at first), you don't need VMware to do that. You should be using server automation instead.

    66. Re:Virtualization has worked by ckaminski · · Score: 1

      Spoken by someone who never dealt with the fiasco that was moving Windows 2000 boot disks among servers before Broadcom took over the ethernet market. :-) That's not the only other reason to do it. Whole system state snapshots (try doing that with Windows or Linux... while running).

      A host of other features, and with entry-level projects, there's no reason a business should be paying $2000/virtual server. None at all.

    67. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the obvious troll, I fail to see how VMware helps all with the scenario you describe. How does OS virtualization reduce interdependencies or complexity?

      Because virtualisation lets you pick up your existing, known good OS+app image and drop it piecemeal onto another system, with a few seconds work and zero downtime.

    68. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea- but just because it has its uses doesn't mean it isn't all hype or at least mostly hype. Virtualization is great- I use it for niche stuff too. Everything from running my own virtual server to top-secret stuff I can't disclose here. I think the benefits that the sales guys are using to sell it are weak and the real benefits use technical folks get from it are more along the lines of management/consolidation. Consolidation doesn't necessarily mean saving money though. Sometimes it does. It is certainly cheaper for me to rent out a virtual server than co-locate a server when my needs aren't all that much.

    69. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At my work we have direct connections into ~100 other companies networks. These include financial, government, and other institutions (we perform real-time monitoring, network changes, etc.) For each of these connections we have a virtual router (Cisco VRF), virtual firewall (Check Point VSX), and linux VM that provides web-services and proxies data back and forth for each client.

      Our clients demand this level of separation, but running separate physical routers, firewalls, servers for each connection (which used to be the case many years ago when we had fewer clients) would obviously take massive amounts more hardware, floor space, power, cooling, and dollars. It then really made sense for us to virtualise a lot of our internal facing systems, in the name of maintaining a homogeneous environment and giving us the previously mentioned benefits of virtualisation.

      So yes, although virtualisation is often-times overused, there are other situations than lab/testing environments where does make a lot of sense.

    70. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 1

      Yes, and server automation lets you duplicate a known good OS+app combination on a whim. What's the difference again?

    71. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Yes, and server automation lets you duplicate a known good OS+app combination on a whim. What's the difference again?

      The difference is that "server automation" *doesn't* do that in the real world, and even in ideal circumstances does not - and can not - achieve the same functionality as virtualisation.

    72. Re:Virtualization has worked by pthreadunixman · · Score: 1

      I'll counter your anecdote with my own.

    73. Re:Virtualization has worked by VoidEngineer · · Score: 1

      But hardware overhead is the entire point. Folks who aren't using virtualization tie down their critical applications to individual pieces of hardware that those applications are installed upon. If a disk or chip goes bad, then so does the database and the webserver. If someone forgets to pay a hosting bill, 6 months of web design... gone. If a huricane blows through and floods your datacenter, your apps... gone. All of these disasters arise from the application being tied to the piece of hardware it's installed on.

      When I was talking about application portability, I was referring to the idea that an application stack or service need not be tied down to a particular piece of hardware that it's being hosted on. My web servers don't sit on any particular physical machine. I'm not tied to a server, a data center, or a hosting company. I started off on a laptop, have been through four hosting services so far, and haven't had to rebuild my web applications a single time. If I get fed up with a hosting service, I can migrate inside of a couple hours. My production servers are portable and stable through migrations.

    74. Re:Virtualization has worked by VoidEngineer · · Score: 1

      Server automation is an elegant way to do things, no doubt. I find that the machines they build never quite seem to the same though. Repositories get updated, driver versions get updated, different servers have slightly different hardware and driver requirements, and there's often little differences between builds. And that causes configuration drift over time.

      Plus, once the machine is in production and real time data is being processed through the database adn application... all bets are off on rebuilding it with server automation. But a VM snapshot of that machine can be used to create an identical copy of that database at that particular point in time.

    75. Re:Virtualization has worked by VoidEngineer · · Score: 1

      Snapshots of production systems and hardware abstraction come to mind.

    76. Re:Virtualization has worked by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Virtualization can be valuable in this context yes, but with proper Test Driven Development, Inversion of Control containers, and object mocking frameworks it should be possible to do most of the testing without having to spin up an entire virtual simulation of the execution environment. Combine this with build and deployment scripting and continuous integration for a really first-class development operation.

    77. Re:Virtualization has worked by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Please mod the parent up. When does virtualization become like the hypervisor OS dog chasing its own tail?

    78. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But concerning in its original role in Chinese medicine, snake oil likely did exactly what it was claimed to do.

      Ain't the placebo effect wonderful?

      Now if you'll excuse me I have to go take some ground rhino horn and powdered tiger penis pills (it's the original Extenze.)

    79. Re:Virtualization has worked by VoidEngineer · · Score: 1

      True. I agree with everything you've said. But if you're doing Agile Development on a web application stack or some other type of complex system, and doing constant deployment, being able to fork the production system is invaluable. What you've written is perfectly accurate for software applications development in the traditional application sense. But it doesn't apply quite so well if one's focus is on systems development. If your coding mostly involves things like installing operating system modules, triggering operating hooks, writing startup scripts, script munching, screen-scraping, and writing to database tables for dynamic page generation... well, that kind of coding and systems design needs something a bit more robust. Something that can save the entire system configuration in one go.

    80. Re:Virtualization has worked by VoidEngineer · · Score: 1

      That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that we've discovered that segregating an application with it's own operating system is the easiest and most cost effective way of adding standards compliant network, cryptography, and database structures to an application. From the application development perspective, it makes far more sense to bundle an operating system with my application to provide network, crypto, and database functionality, than for me to try to roll my own. I like to think I'm a good programmer, but I'm not *that* good. It turns out that assigning IP addresses and names to applications makes a lot of sense. If you're interested in web services, it's the way to go. So, rather than roll it from scratch, just bundle an OS with the app.

      I agree that deduplication is an issue; but in 20/20 highsight, I think we've discovered that application segregation has a lot more benefits than just improved stability.

    81. Re:Virtualization has worked by Rei · · Score: 1

      Did you actually read the post? Snake oil is full of EPA, like fish oil, which has been shown through double blind studies to be a powerful anti-inflammatory agent. It also has a bunch of other medical benefits, as determined by modern science, including reducing the symptoms of schizophrenia and increasing the efficacy of chemotherapy.

      --
      Look at me, still talking while there's science to do.
    82. Re:Virtualization has worked by Rantastic · · Score: 1

      What you have just described is virtualiztion in the hands of the typical small biz consultant: Someone who has no idea what they are doing.

      The 5 to 6 servers you described could easily be run on two physical systems (for redundancy) for less than the price of 5 or 6 physical systems.

      Also, just because you do not understand virtualization does not make it "a complex setup."

      --
      Ask Slashdot: Where bad ideas meet poor googling skills.
    83. Re:Virtualization has worked by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's very simple. You consolidate all your servers as virtual servers so you only need one. Then you allocate a big honkin virtual server and move the others into that so you don't need any servers at all since they're all virtual. HEY where's my email go?!?

    84. Re:Virtualization has worked by dropadrop · · Score: 1

      De-duping can and does work well on file, web and email servers. It doesn't work quite so well for SANs that present multiple LUNs to multiple servers :D

      NetApp would argue with that.

      Which is where my original post (as anonymous) came from. We use Netapp storage, and while I have not been involved with the practical side of this for the last years I do remember that de-duplication was supposed to do exactly this, and understood it's already approved for production use (rather then only backups). But again, while I have set up our virtualization and storage environments a few years ago, I have not touched them for the last two years so I don't know what the current best practises are.

    85. Re:Virtualization has worked by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Virtualization only works well for configurations that no sane person would put into a production use in the first place.

      That is:

      1. Sandboxes for development and testing (because they are SUPPOSED to be constantly created, destroyed, reproduced and reconfigured).
      2. Anything that runs on Microsoft Windows (because it's an OS that runs BETTER when hypervisor is used as a crutch for everything its crappy kernel can't do properly, and Virtual Machine management has to do everything Virtual Memory or filesystem does not).

      Anything that is not a throwaway development environment or Windows box, can be configured on a general-purpose Unix-like server with half-decent package management -- sometimes with chroot jail or other compartmentalized environment.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    86. Re:Virtualization has worked by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      I'll counter your anecdote with my own.

      What anecdote ?

      "Server automation" excels at bringing up systems up in a known state. If your environment is unusually disciplined, it might even be able to bring a new server to configuration parity with an existing one. But you're still need to going to test the new server before putting it into production and you're still going to have to take an outage to changeover. Both of these require more manpower and expertise, and are more disruptive than a VMotion.

      And that's assuming an ideal situation and a relatively trivial application. Out in the real world, where servers have been running complicated applications like Oracle Appserver, or multiple applications on a single machine, essentially unmaintained and continually tweaked for 3-5 years, "server automation" simply doesn't work because the reality doesn't match the documentation.

    87. Re:Virtualization has worked by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      There is one serious problem with that approach.

      You can prove something doesn't work.
      But you can't prove something works.

      There are the itty bitty differences between a virtual machine and the real one. You can be pretty sure if it broke on virtual machine, it won't work on the real one, so you can verify the product with virtual one till it passes all tests. But then you have to move your ass and snag time on all these machines to verify that it actually works, not just virtually.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    88. Re:Virtualization has worked by Yaos · · Score: 1

      VMware supports clusters, if a physical server stops working the others are able to instantly take over. Try again nublet.

    89. Re:Virtualization has worked by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      True, but one of my jobs is to create installation programs. If I can get it to work on a VM image than I'm fairly certain that it will work on the real system, and the turnaround time on a VM system is orders of magnitude faster than cleaning up a live machine. We generally have actual systems for the testing group and VM for the engineers. That way the few times there is an important difference do not slip by the people working on things don't have to spend all of their time re-imaging computers.

    90. Re:Virtualization has worked by rcharbon · · Score: 1

      So you can virtualize your servers and get more efficiency with your existing software. You could choose to update your databases instead.

      Virtualization is a good short term answer, but sooner or later, you're going to need to replace your FoxPro databases. That replacement would be easier if you kept up with new versions of software as each one was released. OTOH, no one wants to upgrade their applications every time a software vendor tweaks something. Lots of little changes, or one big change when you're forced to do it?

      As usual there's no one simple answer.

    91. Re:Virtualization has worked by cromar · · Score: 1

      Huh. Surprised you can do that in 250MB RAM running Windows, but then I'm not really a server guy.

    92. Re:Virtualization has worked by nyri · · Score: 1

      because virtualization only works for large companies with many, many servers

      You're full of crap. At my company ...

      I quit reading here. What is it with you and your ilk? Can't you disagree politely.

      Sorry about off topic but it really dispirits my reading, when I see otherwise (or so I presume as the quoted comment is now +4 Interesting) decent comment being so abusive.

    93. Re:Virtualization has worked by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Yep. We have a very lightweight Python server process that accepts SQL over XMLRPC, runs the query, then returns the results. That way our Unix servers can query the same databases as the Windows machines. Imagine how happy I was to realize that the multi-threaded XMLRPC server was still processing queries in series instead of in parallel, and then finding the MSDN article explaining the limitation of the client libraries. It did give me bargaining power to upgrade to a PostgreSQL backend, so all ended well.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    94. Re:Virtualization has worked by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I quit reading here. What is it with you and your ilk? Can't you disagree politely.

      If I were hanging out with my friends, shooting pool and drinking beer, and someone made an outlandish claim like the post I was replying to, the rest of us would promptly make fun of them.

      This isn't a courtroom or a debate club. It's an informal hangout where it's OK to tell people who are full of crap that they're full of crap, and I'd expect anyone here to tell me the same if I said something dumb.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    95. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you, you stupid douchebag! I completely disagree with your moronic, shit-headed, assholish point! Dick!

    96. Re:Virtualization has worked by heson · · Score: 1
      Ah, so the article isn't the load of crap it looks like.

      The true version of the [insert snake oil from the article] works as intended with fantastic results. The dreamed up "silver bullet" solution produced by american salesmen does not.

      So a summary to the article would be: Things does not solve problems they are not supposed to solve, even if the marketing departement claims so.

    97. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Different hardware? The hell are you talking about?

    98. Re:Virtualization has worked by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``

      I have no trouble believing that there is a scenario that uses virtualization that is $1M cheaper than another scenario that doesn't use virtualization. But that doesn't mean that it is the virtualization that saves the $1M.

      Then what? It sounds like you just want a reason to hate virt machines.''

      Indeed, I am being a bit confrontational about it. I am taking the position that virtualization is useless, and seeing if people can convince me otherwise.

      To answer your question: what I often see is that a company deploys a number of physical machines for no good reason, and then discovers that, using virtualization, they can do things a lot cheaper, because they don't need that many boxes anymore. Ok, great, but if they hadn't deployed so many boxes in the first place, they would have saved even more ... not just because they've still had to pay for having the boxes in service, but also because, even after they switch to virtual machines, they will still need to provide power, disk space, memory, and, last but not least, maintenance for all the OS images.

      In other words, virtualization may save them money by going from a horribly overpriced solution to a less horribly priced solution, but it's still not the right solution if economic efficiency is your
      concern.

      ``

      But the question is: why was the software spread out over that many physical machines in the first place?

      The answer is usually isolation.''

      Right. And it is my opinion that a whole virtual machine, with its own OS image that needs to be maintained, is overkill and inefficient for this scenario. Again: yes, using virtual machines, you do get isolation ... but I am not convinced that it is more cost effective than, say, just using the process isolation already in your operating system.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    99. Re:Virtualization has worked by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      Thanks for clarifying. I am convinced.

      ``requirements so for every app we need at least 4 OS images''

      Then, indeed, virtual machines are probably cheaper than physical machines, and thus virtualization benefits you.

      But recognize that this is because the requirements are set in stone. You are using multiple OS images because the requirements say you have to. The case I am concerned with is one I have seen often, where companies deploy many physical machines even though they don't have to, and then discover that, miraculously, they can save money by _not_ deploying all these physical machines.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    100. Re:Virtualization has worked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NetApp's dedupe is pretty mature. The SAN guys who sit on the other side of my cubicle wall swear by it. Even so, there are still some gotchas. You have to do things differently to make best use of dedupe such as having the SAN guys manage your LUNs. For example, rather than them giving you 10 or so LUNs that you can aggregate into a pool/vg, they present you LUNs that you then assign to separate filesystems. E.g., they assign a LUN for your rootvg/VolGroup00. They assign a LUN for your page volume. They assign a LUN for your datastore. In most cases, you need to manage LVs on both sides -- OS and SAN -- because not doing so can lead to significant performance degradation.

      But back to parent post -- it's far easier to do dedupe with a large OS instance than with multiple virtuals. So even though dedupe works well, it doesn't work *as well* as it does without virtualization.

  4. disappointing... by Known+Nutter · · Score: 5, Funny

    very disappointed that the word "synergy" did not appear in either linked article or the summary.

    --
    Beware of the Leopard.
    1. Re:disappointing... by jockeys · · Score: 1

      that's not really a "tech" commodity, more of a touchy-feely HR bullshit commodity.

      --

      In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
    2. Re:disappointing... by OG · · Score: 1

      Having not read the article, I figured they discussed Jem's hologram-inducing supercomputer in the AI section.

    3. Re:disappointing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither did Leverage, I think.

    4. Re:disappointing... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Synergy does exist. However most people doesn't know what it means and most people who are talking out of their butts use it too much. Synergy is when a team of people collaborating together product output greater then the sum of each individual alone.

      However most People think it is about being excited about your job. Which isn't what the word means.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:disappointing... by borg007 · · Score: 1

      It's sad, but I have to admit in a vendor meeting I asked a clueless vendor if their next product upgrade would allow us to "leverage our synergy". After several minutes of conferring with his fellow salesman, he answered,"That's really the main feature we'll be promoting. We never saw them again. I'm still wandering around without my synergy leveraged.

    6. Re:disappointing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      very disappointed that the word "synergy" did not appear in either linked article or the summary.

      Like a boss

    7. Re:disappointing... by solanum · · Score: 1

      Synergy? I think that is a sign of stagnation, get with the times old man. At my workplace we have moved on and only deal in "synergies" now. *sigh*

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
    8. Re:disappointing... by captainClassLoader · · Score: 1

      That's because they realized that they didn't have the correct value proposition for you going forward.

      --
      "The plural of anecdote is not data" -- Bruce Schneier
  5. My Meta-assessment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    IT snake oil: Six tech cure-alls that went bunk
    By Dan Tynan
    Created 2009-11-02 03:00AM

    Today, cloud computing [4], virtualization [5], and tablet PCs [6] are vying for the hype crown. At this point it's impossible to tell which claims will bear fruit, and which will fall to the earth and rot.

    [...]

    1. Artificial intelligence
    2. Computer-aided software engineering (CASE)
    3. Thin clients
    4. ERP systems
    5. B-to-b marketplaces
    6. Enterprise social media

    1. AI: Has to have existed before it can be "bunk"
    2. CASE: Regarding Wikipedia, it seems to be alive and kicking.
    3. Thin Clients: Tell that to the guys over at TiVo that thin-client set-top-boxes are bunk.
    4. ERP Systems: For low complexity companies, I don't see why ERP software isn't possible.
    5. Web B2B: He is right about this one.
    6. Social media: Big companies like IBM have been doing "social media" within their organization for quite some time.It's just a new name for an old practice

    And as far as his first comment,

    "Today, cloud computing [4], virtualization [5], and tablet PCs [6] are vying for the hype crown. At this point it's impossible to tell which claims will bear fruit, and which will fall to the earth and rot."

    [4] Google.
    [5] Data Servers.
    [6] eBooks and medical applications.

    1. Re:My Meta-assessment by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a pattern here. Many of the hyped technologies eventually find a nice little niche. It's good to experiment with new things to find out where they might fit in or teach us new options. The problem comes when they are touted as a general solution to most IT ills. Treat them like the religious dudes who knock on your door: go ahead and talk to them for a while on the porch, but don't let them into the house.
           

    2. Re:My Meta-assessment by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > 3. Thin Clients: Tell that to the guys over at TiVo that thin-client set-top-boxes are bunk.

      Nevermind the Tivo. Web based "thin client computing" has been on the rise in corporate computing for over 10 years now. There are a lot of corporate Windows users that use what is essentially a Windows based dumb terminal. Larger companies even go out of their way to make sure that changing the setup on your desktop office PC is about as hard as doing the same to a Tivo.

      Client based computing (java or .net) is infact "all the rage".

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    3. Re:My Meta-assessment by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      2. CASE: Regarding Wikipedia, it seems to be alive and kicking.

      As a programmer, CASE sounds pretty neat. I think it probably won't obviate the need for programmers any time soon, but it has the potential to automate some of the more tedious aspects of programming. I'd personally rather spend more of my time designing applications and less time hammering out the plumbing. It's interesting to note that a lot of the CASE tools in that wikipedia article I'm familiar with, although they were never referred to as CASE tools when I was learning how to use them. I think the CASE concept may have been too broad, and had gotten a bad name, even thought some of the parts were/are useful.

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
    4. Re:My Meta-assessment by jimicus · · Score: 1

      > 3. Thin Clients: Tell that to the guys over at TiVo that thin-client set-top-boxes are bunk.

      Nevermind the Tivo. Web based "thin client computing" has been on the rise in corporate computing for over 10 years now. There are a lot of corporate Windows users that use what is essentially a Windows based dumb terminal. Larger companies even go out of their way to make sure that changing the setup on your desktop office PC is about as hard as doing the same to a Tivo.

      Client based computing (java or .net) is infact "all the rage".

      They've been doing that for years. Strangely, even when your desktop PCs are locked down so tight they may as well be dumb terminals, a lot of people will still scream blue murder if it really is a dumb terminal being put on their desk.

    5. Re:My Meta-assessment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Treat them like the religious dudes who knock on your door: answer the door covered in goat's blood and invite them in for an orgy, family style.

    6. Re:My Meta-assessment by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So don't tell them it's a dumb terminal. Put a thin client on their desk and tell them they're getting a 6 ghz octocore with 32 gigs of ram and a petabyte hard drive. They'll never know. Most of them, anyway.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    7. Re:My Meta-assessment by MBCook · · Score: 1

      Thin Client: A minimal client that relies on the server to do most of its processing

      A TiVo isn't a thin client, it does all the work. The service is only used to get updated schedules and suggestions. All the processing (like figuring which of 20 shows to schedule when, on two tuners, across 5 airings...) is done on the box.

      I've been sitting here trying to think of a thin client that's in use. Cable companies wanted to use thin-client DVRs, but were sued out of it (until a recent court decision). Cell phones and video game consoles aren't thin clients.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    8. Re:My Meta-assessment by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      As originally touted, thin client is almost non-existent. Supposedly, you didn't even need a disk drive, it would just boot right off the network. A low-load OS would allow you to use almost all of your memory for your application. Instead, we have Windows based "dumb terminals" with 120 GB hard drives and 4 GB of memory, 2 GB of which is required by the OS.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    9. Re:My Meta-assessment by Caesar+Tjalbo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I tell them it's an artificially intelligent terminal.

      --
      "I'm not much interested in interoperability. I want substitutability. I want to be able to throw your software out."
    10. Re:My Meta-assessment by khallow · · Score: 1

      1. AI: Has to have existed before it can be "bunk"

      No offense, but AI has shown your claim to be "bunk". For a nonexistent technology, it has probably consumed more resources in development than the rest of the listed technologies combined. Think about that. Even better, have your AI think about that. ;-)

    11. Re:My Meta-assessment by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Typically, most of these technologies are designed for certain situations. Then the sales guys gets their hands on it, and decide that they need to spruce up the claims (in other words, lie).

    12. Re:My Meta-assessment by afidel · · Score: 1

      Huh? There are XPembedded based thin terms with 128MB flash and 512MB ram. They are basically Citrix/RDP clients that can work with winprinters and load a local IE session. They boot in seconds and can be locked down even tighter than the most well locked workstation. They also sell for $200 or less. If you don't need IE or printer support there are even lower powered solutions running a variety of OS's.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    13. Re:My Meta-assessment by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I've been sitting here trying to think of a thin client that's in use.

      A web browser? Especially one without all the ajax shite.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    14. Re:My Meta-assessment by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      But what if they say "Yes!"

    15. Re:My Meta-assessment by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Okay, anybody here ever heard of web apps? Like those Google office things? Seems to me that a web browser is a pretty thin client.

      One of the ideas behind thin clients was to cut costs, but that fell victim to the general decrease in computer costs: it's probably cheaper to buy low-end PCs than to get ones without disks and set them up to work as traditional thin clients.

      Sort of like the demise of the Lisp machines. When Lisp systems ran faster when based on general-purpose Intel and Motorola CPUS than on the best specialized CPUs any manufacturer could afford to make, the specialized machines were doomed.

      The price of general-purpose stuff has dropped so much, and the power increased so much, that specialization doesn't buy nearly what it used to.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:My Meta-assessment by Bagels · · Score: 1

      You'll need to go buy another goat first, obviously.

      --
      --- Bwah?
    17. Re:My Meta-assessment by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      I'd personally rather spend more of my time designing applications and less time hammering out the plumbing.

      This can already be achieved through use of proper abstractions, design patterns, and Inversion of Control containers. I would argue that this is a more modern and elegant solution than the sorts of "code generation" proposed by the CASE tools. IMHO, automatic code generation is often a brute force solution to problems where better abstractions would result in a more elegant and simple solution. Personally, I prefer elegance in code rather than ugly brute force tool use, but maybe that is just me.

    18. Re:My Meta-assessment by Imsdal · · Score: 1

      Yes, this is why the Office suite isn't selling anymore. No, wait a minute...

      While more people are using their PCs as thin clients all the time, we are a *very* long way away from being there completely.

    19. Re:My Meta-assessment by Imsdal · · Score: 1

      To qualify as a thin client in my book, the device has to be thin "all the time", i.e. not a PC used mainly for browsing. Once regular PCs sold for regular office jobs have worse performance/fewer features than the previous generation, I will consider thin clients a success. Until then, I still laugh at Oracle and the "NC".

    20. Re:My Meta-assessment by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Don't tell them it is terminal or they will never touch it!

    21. Re:My Meta-assessment by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      To qualify as a thin client in my book, the device has to be thin "all the time", i.e. not a PC used mainly for browsing.

      I don't know that your definition of thin client agrees with the market. Most of the windows based thin clients that everyone is complaining about (big harddrives, etc) are the result of re-purposing outdated systems to get a little more life out of them. For example, a previous employer didn't want to spend all the money necessary to upgrade every PC to run XP well. Instead, they installed Win2000 (getting Win95 machines off the network), and then connected them to Citrix servers.

      WYSE is a good example of current generation thin clients. When I left my former employer they had concluded extensive tests deploying thin clients to various employees, and were happy enough that they were buying new ones in batches of 30-50 at a time. They found that they could replace 3-4 PCs at about the same cost as getting one new desktop PC.

      Of course, not everyone was moved to a thin client. Anyone who made a case for needing a real PC kept theirs. And a few were able to get an additional thin client as well.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    22. Re:My Meta-assessment by HereIAmJH · · Score: 1

      One of the ideas behind thin clients was to cut costs, but that fell victim to the general decrease in computer costs: it's probably cheaper to buy low-end PCs than to get ones without disks and set them up to work as traditional thin clients.

      Wyse S10 terminals are about $230 each, plus monitor. While it's possible to buy a desktop in that range, it would be severely limited and have a short life span. One of the strong selling points of terminals is that there is no reason that a well designed one can't be used for 10 or more years. It's end of life will more likely be due to hardware failure or a network upgrade than the whim of some OS vendor.

      Wyse calls theirs 'thin clients' because they are marketing to businesses. Asus is marketing their eeeBox PC for essentially the same type of user in the home market.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
  6. Object Oriented Programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    OOP was hyped as a cure-all, but only turned out to help out in a few portions of apps, and trigger a philosophical holy-war between set fans (relational) and graph fans (oop). As a new tool to add to the tool box, fine. As a cure-all, NOT.

  7. The Cloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    It has vaporware all over it.

    1. Re:The Cloud by Shikaku · · Score: 2, Funny

      Clouds are actually water vapors. So it literally is vaporware.

    2. Re:The Cloud by syousef · · Score: 1

      Clouds are actually water vapors. So it literally is vaporware. ...and since it's water vapour it's no surprise that letting it anywhere near your computer hardware will instantly make that hardware go on the fritz.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    3. Re:The Cloud by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      However, some of them have an impressive flash interface.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    4. Re:The Cloud by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that water vapor wasn't visible. Clouds are microscopic crystalline suspensions.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    5. Re:The Cloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    6. Re:The Cloud by devman · · Score: 1

      Fact: Jokes are more funnier when you explain them.

    7. Re:The Cloud by scradock · · Score: 1

      Untrue - clouds are regions of atmosphere containing water droplets sufficiently small to stay suspended but sufficiently large to obscure vision - or scatter visible light. Water vapor is invisible, being water behaving as a gas mixed with the air. By analogy, cloud computing will allow you to hide where you do your computing; vaporware will be completely invisible. But of course it will cost more....

    8. Re:The Cloud by idlemachine · · Score: 1

      "Thank you, Ted, that was the joke."

    9. Re:The Cloud by yivi · · Score: 1

      Clouds are actually water vapors. So it literally is vaporware.

      Whoosh?

      Or you were afraid someone else wouldn't get the joke?

      I.-

  8. There is just one Myth. by cybergrue · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It arises when the salesman tell the clueless management that "This product will solve all your problems!"

    Bonus points if the salesman admits that he doesn't need to know your problems before selling it to you.

    1. Re:There is just one Myth. by computational+super · · Score: 1

      Almost - the salesman has to say "This product will solve all your problems - and replace all of your expensive programmers!" That way, when a programmer says, "You know, this sounds like a snake oil solution to me..." the salesman confidentially says, "he's just scared because he's just been made obsolete" (wink wink nudge nudge).

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    2. Re:There is just one Myth. by -+r · · Score: 1

      back in the days, we had the big boss of our IT dept (at a major university) who would bring in salesmen from every company that knocked on his door. he would without exception buy it, and give it to someone (often me) to create a wonderful new application in less than a week (with documentation, of course). this *never* worked, and i was often the scapegoat, since 'he saw the salesman build something just like it in his office'. later, as y2k approached, the financial systems decided they could not convert in time, so they went to an erp system (as eventually did the rest of the university/s systems). this was the biggest money pit i have ever seen. the yearly software licenses were in the millions, the staff tripled to deal w/ the problems, outside contractors were brought in at salaries twice ours. if anyone had given anyone at the university an accurate assessment of how much this costs (present tense), it would never have been done.

      --
      - r
  9. Machine translation replacing human translation by WormholeFiend · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's just say the technology is not quite there yet.

    1. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Let's just say the technology is not quite there yet"

      aka

      "Pertaining to the acceptability, us, speaking of the mechanical acumen almost has arrived, still"

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    2. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      It's getting closer. Verbal to verbal is there (really slow and incomplete, but it's better than babelfish [the website, not the Hitchhikers' Deus Machina]).

    3. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by ari_j · · Score: 1

      Let' s apenas diz que a tecnologia não está completamente lá ainda.

      Let's joost sey zee technulugy is nut qooeete-a zeere-a yet. Bork Bork Bork!

    4. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's just say the technology is not quite there yet.

      Oh really? I think that this translation of Slashdot Japan is very... interesting.

    5. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by daveime · · Score: 1

      In Soviet Russia, all "are eggs" belong to you !

    6. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by Carbaholic · · Score: 1

      That' Not real s, AI great translation work!

    7. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      It's getting closer.

      Not really.

      Someone I know attended the Machine Translation Summit, and from what I've been told, organizations who use machine translation still require a small army of "editors" to correct all the errors made by the machines (one organization was even heard saying that this type of "translation technique" has reached the point of profitability).

      This need is driven by the lack of competent human translators, and the surge in demand for translation services.

      Unfortunately, the law of offer and demand hasn't had much of an effect on translators' income levels, probably because people demand cheap services, so the field fails to attract talent in great numbers.

    8. Re:Machine translation replacing human translation by mqduck · · Score: 1

      Actually, using Babel Fish to translate the original English (after changing "Let's" to "Let us") to German and then that same German back to English, we get:

      "Do not let us the straight technology say are rather there still."

      But using Google Translate, without even needing to expand "Let's" in English, we get:

      "Let's just say the technology is not quite so far."

      --
      Property is theft.
  10. ERP? by Swanktastic · · Score: 1

    I was surprised to find ERP on this list. Sure, it's a huge effort and always oversold, but there's hardly a large manufacturing company out there that could survive without some sort of basic ERP implementation.

    1. Re:ERP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how did they survive before ERP systems?

    2. Re:ERP? by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The fundamental problem with ERP systems is that they are integrated and implemented by the second tier of folks in the engineering pecking order. Couple that fact with an aggressive sales force that would sell ice to eskimos and you've got a straight road to expensive failure.

    3. Re:ERP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes and no on ERP.

      Clearly you are correct that any large company and surely manufactures are using some ERP (or MRP/DRP). In specific verticals and with realistic expectations many roll-outs have been successful and with demonstrable returns.

      But the idea of ERP from a monolithic vendor with an all-pervasive solution for all your business lines and processes and an implementation that was going to reinvent your company and change all those corporate structures that have remained up-till-now resistant to change was the joke.

      ERP as just another software solution with constraints is a success.

      ERP as new-age religion is a failure.

    4. Re:ERP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how did they survive before ERP systems?

      By being too inefficient to still survive in today's marketplace.

    5. Re:ERP? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      you've got a straight road to expensive failure.

      Sing it brother (or sister)! As one who is currently helping to support an Oracle-based ERP project, expensive doesn't begin to describe how much it's costing us. Original estimated cost: $20 million. Last known official number I heard for current cost: $46 million. I'm sure that number is over $50 million by now.

      But wait, there's more. We bought an off-the-shelf portion of their product and of course have to shoe-horn it to do what we want. There are portions of our home-grown process that aren't yet implemented and probably won't be implemented for several more months even though those portions are a critical part of our operations.

      But hey, the people who are "managing" the project get to put it on their résumé and act like they know what they're doing, which is all that matters.

      an aggressive sales force that would sell ice to eskimos

      I see you've read my column.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    6. Re:ERP? by q2k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wow, an actively maintained ~ (tilde) web site. I don't think I've seen one of those since about 2002 ;) Your column is spot on.

    7. Re:ERP? by -+r · · Score: 1

      as posted above, i was in the beginning of a switch to an erp system, that cost the state millions. even more fun - when we started out, it was all done on sybase. abt 2/3rds of the way thru (about the time i 'retired'), they decided to switch everything to oracle. oh, fun.

      --
      - r
    8. Re:ERP? by some-old-geek · · Score: 1

      I don't remember which columnist in the 1980s said that, if you need to write user exits for the business package, don't buy it.

    9. Re:ERP? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      Wow, an actively maintained ~ (tilde) web site.

      Depends on what your definition of 'actively maintained' is. I think my last update was sometime in May, though I keep reminding myself about those updates and additional musings I need to put up.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  11. Microsoft silverlight by assemblerex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That went over real well once they saw user visits drop by almost half...

    1. Re:Microsoft silverlight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      That went over real well once they saw user visits drop by almost half...

      Perhaps your visitors were able to accomplish twice as much in each visit :)

  12. No substitute by UnixUnix · · Score: 1

    Listening to the Willy Lomans of the world is no substitute for insight and understanding. As Plato might have put it, either the managers had better understand technology or the techies get to manage.

  13. I don't see anything wrong with this list... by Jazz-Masta · · Score: 5, Funny

    We need to bring about a paradigm shift, to think outside the box, and produce a clear synergy between cloud computing and virtualization.

    1. Re:I don't see anything wrong with this list... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This person should either be given a prize for the most authentic response or executed
      for crimes against humanity.

    2. Re:I don't see anything wrong with this list... by Jazz-Masta · · Score: 1

      Oh come on now, let's be nice...this is slashdot...one of the most *tolerant* communities on the Internet!

    3. Re:I don't see anything wrong with this list... by ScentCone · · Score: 5, Funny

      We need to bring about a paradigm shift, to think outside the box, and produce a clear synergy between cloud computing and virtualization.

      Damn it all, man. Your don't produce synergy! You leverage synergy. Please get it right will you? The sooner you do, the sooner you can return to your core competency and synthesize some maximum value for your investors. M'kay?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:I don't see anything wrong with this list... by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's why synergy failes the last time around: Everyone tried to leverage it but no one produced any, leading to a shortage and thus the burst of the tech bubble as synergy-starved businesses couldn't shift paradigms anymore.

      It's just like the Semantic Web: There was enough web but nobody cared about producing enough semantics and so the whole mix was off. As a result, few can tell the difference between the Semantic Web and Web Classic, let alone Web 2.0.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    5. Re:I don't see anything wrong with this list... by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      Do you feel dirty having typed that? Because I feel dirty just having read it.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    6. Re:I don't see anything wrong with this list... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only project jabberwocky will bring about this. Project jabberwocky will change the way we do business.

    7. Re:I don't see anything wrong with this list... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I feel none of these comments helps anybody going forward.

  14. Expert systems by michael_cain · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Within limits, expert systems seem to work reasonably well. Properly-trained software that examines x-ray images has been reported to have better accuracy than humans at diagnosing specific problems. The literature seems to suggest that expert systems for medical case diagnosis is more accurate than doctors and nurses, especially tired doctors and nurses. OTOH, patients have an intense dislike of such systems, particularly the diagnosis software, since it can seem like an arbitrary game of "20 Questions". Of course, these are tools that help the experts do their job better, not replacements for the expert people themselves.

    1. Re:Expert systems by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      How dare you replace the inexpensive Bangalore X-ray technician with a machine! Please, have a heart.

    2. Re:Expert systems by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      It's bangalore, I'm sure you could buy two on the open market.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    3. Re:Expert systems by Imsdal · · Score: 1

      Is it really patients that dislike the medical expert systems? I'd bet good money it's the doctors who dislike them. If we are talking about systems that the patients use themselves, you are surely right. These systems are doomed to fail, as it actually takes knowledge and experience to answer most medical questions properly. But systems used by doctors to aid in coming up with a diagnosis are quite successful and quite detested by doctors correctly understanding that their market value just tanked.

  15. Thin Clients? by bertoelcon · · Score: 1
    By the description in here the cloud didn't work because:

    Worse, users resented giving up control over their machines, adds Mike Slavin, partner and managing director responsible for leading TPI's Innovation Center. "The technology underestimated the value users place upon having their own 'personal' computer, rather than a device analogous -- stretching to make a point here -- to the days of dumb terminals," he says.

    So why does it look good now? Oh right different people heard the setup and a new generation gets suckered on it.

    --
    Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    1. Re:Thin Clients? by abigor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because cloud computing doesn't require a thin client? The two things aren't related at all. Offloading processing and data makes perfect sense for many applications.

    2. Re:Thin Clients? by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Why waste money on a fat client if its not going to be used to its potential?

    3. Re:Thin Clients? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      If you don't use the power, but do everything on the remote machines, the powerful computer is in effect just an overpowered thin client.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  16. Thanks for linking to the print version by harmonise · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is a bit OT but I wanted to say that snydeq deserves a cookie for linking to the print version. I can only imagine that the regular version is at least seven pages. I hope slashdot finds a way to reward considerate contributors such as him or her for making things easy for the rest of us.

    --
    Cory Doctorow talking about cloud computing makes as much sense as George W Bush talking about electrical engineering.
    1. Re:Thanks for linking to the print version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are ONLY six pages you insensitive clod.

    2. Re:Thanks for linking to the print version by Gudeldar · · Score: 1

      I actually found the print version to be kind of annoying. On a wide screen reading from one edge of the screen to the next isn't as comfortable as having it condensed in to the middle third of the screen like the regular version is. I actually Googled the page title to find the normal version. I'd rather wait the tenth of a second that it takes for the next page to load. Slashdotters seem to have an irrational hatred for multi-page articles, but with AdBlock I'd rather have multiple pages than no formatting.

  17. Virtualization is not bunk. by E.+Edward+Grey · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't know of a single IT department that hasn't been helped by virtualization of servers. It makes more efficient use of purchased hardware, keeps businesses from some of the manipulations to which their hardware and OS vendors can subject them, and is (in the long term) cheaper to operate than a traditional datacenter. IT departments have wondered for a long time: "if I have all this processing power, memory, and storage, why can't I use all of it?" Virtualization answers that question, and does it in an elegant way, so I don't consider it snake oil.

    --

    ---don't make me break out my red pen.

    1. Re:Virtualization is not bunk. by evilviper · · Score: 1

      It makes more efficient use of purchased hardware

      No it doesn't. The overhead is so high that you're losing performance all over the place. And for what? So you can more easily throw more hardware at the problem which DIDN'T NEED ANY MORE HARDWARE TO DO THE JOB WHEN YOU STARTED...

      I use virtualization here and there... Mostly to stick 4 development machines on one physical PC. But to tell you the truth, I can't see missing it if it went away and we just had to stick 4 low-power mini-PCs in that space to do the job instead...

      IMHO, VMWare exists for one reason... Windows sucks. On any form of Unix, jails, chrooting, et al, perform far better, without the overhead.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re:Virtualization is not bunk. by demi · · Score: 1

      A lot of what I see virtualization used for has to do with failures of software engineering, in the sense of being able to keep instances separate. Due to the overhead issues you mention, it would be better to support different software environments and applications on one host OS. For example, you have four physical web servers and want to replace it with one physical server. Why not just run one OS instance and four instances of your webserver? Almost every OS has features that allow you to pin process groups to processors or limit memory or do whatever other resource management you're using virtualization for, while avoiding having to lose capacity to OS instances and preallocations.

      The reason, often, is that the application is engineered poorly to work this way. Innumerable little details like fixed port numbers, hardcoded configuration file locations, a robust way of logicalizing ("logicalizing"--I like that as an alternative to "virtualizing") the way a piece of software sees its environment--these all make it "hard" to have a bunch of software instances running together.

      Another thing that virtualization "helps" with is deployment--the idea that instead of deploying an application package, you deploy a (probably partly) preconfigured full OS image that matches what you built, QAed and demonstrated. But again, this is a kind of workaround that sidesteps the issue that you're not packaging your software well--repeatedly, reliably, stably.

      Virtualization has its place, but these are the uses to which I'm actually seeing it put (I work at a large IT outsourcing company). And it makes me a bit sad because it's failures of software engineering that make it needed.

      --
      demi
  18. Fake quote in technology #1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The quote "Some day we will build a thinking machine..." which TFA attributes to Thinking Machines corp is bogus, I think. Google turns up only a handful of hits, and the happy times I had with C*/PRISM on a CM-5 left me with the distinct impression that the people at Thinking Machines definitely had their heads screwed on and switched on.

    Did TFA just make this quote up?

    1. Re:Fake quote in technology #1 by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      And of course "Some day" is a vague term which I'd immediately associate with the distant future.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Fake quote in technology #1 by Intron · · Score: 1

      A few observations by Dr. Daniel Hillis:

      "Building a thinking machine has always been a personal dream of mine, and my conception of the Connection Machine was part of that. I like to say I want to make a computer that will be proud of me."

      "I'd like to find a way for consciousness to transcend human flesh. Building a thinking machine is really a search for a kind of Earthly immortality. Something much more intelligent than we can exist. Making a thinking machine is my way to reach out to that."

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  19. The crazy hottie by GPLDAN · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I kind of miss the crazy hotties that used to pervade the network sales arena. I won't even name the worst offenders, although the worst started with the word cable. They would go to job fairs and hire the hottest birds, put them in the shortest shirts and low cut blouses, usually white with black push-up bras - and send them in to sell you switches.

    It was like watching the cast of a porn film come visit. Complete with the sleazebag regional manager, some of them even had gold chains on. Pimps up, big daddy!

    They would laugh at whatever the customer said wildly, even if it wasn't really funny. The girls would bat their eyelashes and drop pencils. It was so ridiculous it was funny, it was like a real life comedy show skit.

    I wonder how much skimming went on in those days. Bogus purchase orders, fake invoices. Slap and tickle. The WORST was if your company had no money to afford any of the infratsructure and the networking company would get their "capital finance" team involved. Some really seedy slimy stuff went down in the dot-com boom. And not just down pantlegs, either.

    1. Re:The crazy hottie by chappel · · Score: 2, Funny

      I still remember a visit from a PC sales rep that was hired straight off the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleading squad. OMG I bet she could sell computers.

    2. Re:The crazy hottie by rossz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I kind of miss the crazy hotties that used to pervade the network sales arena. I won't even name the worst offenders, although the worst started with the word cable. They would go to job fairs and hire the hottest birds, put them in the shortest shirts and low cut blouses, usually white with black push-up bras - and send them in to sell you switches.

      Booth babes are the best thing about trade shows.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    3. Re:The crazy hottie by q2k · · Score: 1

      Huge amounts of skimming. I worked for one of the big telcos back in the day. The managers got paid their bonuses on self-reported revenue. The simply made up whatever sales they needed on the last day of the quarter to hit quota, and cashed the bonus check. The fact that those sales never actually materialized never seemed to bother anybody. At the national sales meeting they said about 10% of the reported sales ever showed us as revenue. Of course, the company had just lost billions and there were 2500 of us at a sales meeting in Vegas, so the problems were systematic.

      Also a lot of "buy my switches/software/servers and I'll make sure you get some IPO stock" back in the late 90s.

    4. Re:The crazy hottie by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I'll take that over a slick Power-Point presentation any day.

  20. It's always the hype problem. by loftwyr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most of the technologies in the article were overhyped but almost all have had real value in the marketplace.

    For example, AI works and is a very strong technology, but only the SF authors and idiots expect their computer to have a conversation with them. Expert systems (a better name) or technologies that are part of them are in place in thousands of back-office systems.

    But, if you're looking for HAL, you have another 2001 years to wait. Nobody seriously is working toward that, except as a dream goal. Everybody wants a better prediction model for the stock market first.

    1. Re:It's always the hype problem. by JoeCool1986 · · Score: 1

      But, if you're looking for HAL, you have another 2001 years to wait. Nobody seriously is working toward that, except as a dream goal. Everybody wants a better prediction model for the stock market first.

      We at Qualia Labs are working towards that :). Though we still see it in the context of a very long term goal.

    2. Re:It's always the hype problem. by Dr.Dubious+DDQ · · Score: 1

      "if you're looking for HAL, you have another 2001 years to wait. "
      Incorrect! In fact Microsoft® has had "I'm afraid I can't let you do that" technology in place for at least a decade!

    3. Re:It's always the hype problem. by odin84gk · · Score: 1

      "Smart Grid" should appear on this list for this exact reason.

    4. Re:It's always the hype problem. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      For example, AI works and is a very strong technology, but only the SF authors and idiots expect their computer to have a conversation with them.

      When did the definition of AI change in the past 50 years? Back in 1950, everyone know what AI meant. It was C3PO. Data. Bishop. A robot that could do almost anything a human could do.

      A conversation might be a little out of the question, but surely, we thought, a robot would be able to do something as simple as walk down a hallway, like any mouse or roach can do. Or how about the simple image classification that pigeons are capable of -- classifying paintings by artists, including those it's never seen before?

      Why would one have to be an idiot for thinking that computers could, somehow, someday, be capable of doing such things? After all, animals are dumb, and can't do math or play chess or solve complex equations, but they can do a lot of things that are very difficult for computers -- like finding a trail in the woods. How is it that computers, which can do things only very intelligent and educated people can do, *can't* do things that dumb, uneducated people and animals *can* do?

      Personally, I believe they are qualitatively different problems.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    5. Re:It's always the hype problem. by pinkj · · Score: 1

      For example, AI works and is a very strong technology, but only the SF authors and idiots expect their computer to have a conversation with them.

      Hello, I am Eliza.

    6. Re:It's always the hype problem. by Logibeara · · Score: 0

      But, if you're looking for HAL, you have another 2001 years to wait. Nobody seriously is working toward that, except as a dream goal. Everybody wants a better prediction model for the stock market first.

      Computational Perception and Developmental Robotics are a strong undertone in computer engineering courses at ISU. I don't know about other schools, but a HAL like computer is much less than a "dream goal". I can say without a doubt that it something similar will be engineered in much less than 2001 years. Technological growth is speeding up nearly exponentially(steam engine, combustion engine, flight, electricity, moonwalk) I'm sure everyone has heard the spiel. http://www.ece.iastate.edu/~alexs/dissertation/dissertation.pdf Asst Professor at ISU, Alex Stoytchev's dissertation focuses specifically on building a system of robotic learning, commonly called "Developmental Robotics". While his robot only had the ability to categorize objects based on resonance sound and mass, it still shows that fundamental building blocks for a one day "HAL" are already in existence.

      --
      I'd rather search for the answers than just ask the questions.
  21. Overhyped, but note quite snake oil by Jyms · · Score: 2, Informative

    I got interested in AI in the early 90's and even then the statements made in the article were considered outrageous by people who actually knew what was going on. I use AI on a daily basis, from OCR to speech and gesture recognition. Even my washing machine claims to use it. Not quite thinking for us and taking over the world, but give it some time :).

    Same with thin clients. Just today I put together a proposal for three 100 seat thin client (Sunray) labs. VDI allows us to use Solaris, multiple Linux flavors, Minix, Windows, pretty much any OS we wish at the click of a mouse. The biggest problem is guessing what is going to happen now that Oracle is taking over, not the technology/architecture. Yes, Windows (CE) "thin clients" suck and are not very thin, but real think clients are quite handy.

    A lot of these technologies were/are hopelessly over-hyped, but that is not a fault with the technology, but a problem with the idiots doing the hyping.

  22. TFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If nothing else, thanks for linking to the print version of the article...

  23. GUIs, games, compilers used to be called AI by peter303 · · Score: 1

    It just when some aspect of symbolic computing is successful, its not really considered AI anymore and the goal changes. Or it was any computing technology to emerge from an AI laboratory was considered AI'ish.

    Some researchers divided this into "soft" and "hard" AI. The later would be someone conversational humna-like mentality. The former is any software technology along the way.

  24. AI done poorly by jspenguin1 · · Score: 2, Interesting
  25. Tech cure-all missing option: emacs by turing_m · · Score: 4, Funny

    Apparently it cures everything but RSI.

    --
    If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    1. Re:Tech cure-all missing option: emacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Emacs was clearly marketed as a technology that promises to revolutionize the enterprise, slash operational costs, reduce capital expenditures, align your IT initiatives with your core business practices, boost employee productivity, and leave your breath clean and minty fresh. I'm surprised they missed it.

    2. Re:Tech cure-all missing option: emacs by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      Actually this is false. Emacs is the only thing computer-related that doesn't seriously aggravate my RSI (including console controllers, mice, and using anything else to do software development. I haven't used a tablet PC yet, but things don't look promising.)

    3. Re:Tech cure-all missing option: emacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, of course, what text editor to use. Fortunately, you can install VI on it.

    4. Re:Tech cure-all missing option: emacs by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Apparently [emacs] cures everything but RSI.

      I'm sure RMS is working on a voice recognition extension.
           

    5. Re:Tech cure-all missing option: emacs by turing_m · · Score: 1

      Stallman, is that you?

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    6. Re:Tech cure-all missing option: emacs by turing_m · · Score: 1

      I'm sure RMS is working on a voice recognition extension.

      Voice recognition? I'm surprised it's not self-aware by now.

      "Hello? Oh... yes... I see what you are trying to do here... primitive... kludgy... let me refactor that for you first... Escape... Meta... Alt... Ctrl... Shift... no wait, that's my own name... No, that's not it... OW...neural net to text output impedence mismatch slowing me down... bandwidth limitation hurts... M-x viper-mode... MUCH BETTER, enjoy your refactored code + new features have a nice day..."

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
  26. Those aren't all by HangingChad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We used to play buzzword bingo when vendors would come in for a show. Some of my personal favorites:

    IT Best Practices - Has anyone seen my big book of best practices? I seem to have misplaced it. But that never stopped vendors from pretending there was an IT bible out there that spelled out the procedures for running an IT shop. And always it was their product at the core of IT best practices.

    Agile Computing - I never did figure that one out. This is your PC, this is your PC in spin class.

    Lean IT - Cut half your staff and spend 3x what you were paying them to pay us for doing the exact same thing only with worse service.

    Web 2.0 - Javascript by any other name is still var rose.

    SOA - What a gold mine that one was. Calling it "web services" didn't command a very high premium. But tack on a great acronym like SOA and you can charge lots more!

    All those are just ways for vendors and contractors to make management feel stupid and out of touch. Many management teams don't need any help in that arena, most of them are already out of touch before the vendor walks in. Exactly why they're not running back to their internal IT people to inquire why installing Siebel is a really BAD idea. You can't fix bad business practices with technology. Fix your business practices first, then find the solution that best fits what you're already doing.

    And whoever has my IT Best Practices book, please bring it back. Thanks.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Those aren't all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Business social networking?

      That would be basecamp. Apparently lots of people use it. It seems a lot slower than mantis though.

    2. Re:Those aren't all by cojsl · · Score: 1

      SOA - What a gold mine that one was. Calling it "web services" didn't command a very high premium. But tack on a great acronym like SOA and you can charge lots more!

      Thanks for a good laugh! I couldn't remember what SOA stood for, so I looked it up.

      Even the Wikipedia description for SOA could win a round of buzzword bingo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service-oriented_architecture

    3. Re:Those aren't all by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      "IT Best Practices." That would be the documentation for your systems detailing network maps, authorization levels, passwords, processes for managing changes to critical systems (init scripts), backups, disaster recovery, failover, etc. You mean, you don't have that written down anywhere? Oopsies. You should. If your head IT guy gets hit by a bus and dies, you need a way of letting his survivors run the network. Otherwise, it's easy to have to find that proverbial server-in-a-sealed-closet.

      "Web 2.0" AJAX has been revolutionary, from my prospective as an end-user. Compare AJAX Gmail with the HTML-only version of Gmail. It's pretty dramatic. Meebo, Google Docs, Google Wave, etc. These are very different ways of interacting with the Internet than plain old HTML.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    4. Re:Those aren't all by mujadaddy · · Score: 1

      I *JUST* finished a phone interview with a guy who had listed "Agile Development Environment" as the last bullet point on the last consultant job on his resume.

      --
      Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
      "Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
    5. Re:Those aren't all by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Agile Computing - I never did figure that one out. This is your PC, this is your PC in spin class.

      The thing with a lot of these ideas like Agile Computing, Extreme Programming, Pair-Programming, is that most of their best ideas got integrated into mainstream project management. In the 80s and 70s there wasn't much project management, or even code organization, and any style of project management was better; if your normal management method is to tell your programmers "get to work" of course extreme programming will work better.

      On the other hand none of those fads were perfect, and all of them had weird problems mixed in.

      --
      Qxe4
    6. Re:Those aren't all by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Agile Computing - Maintaining good specs and requirements is hard. Just give me something based on this vague description and then I'll blame you when it doesn't do what I want.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    7. Re:Those aren't all by WiPEOUT · · Score: 1

      It's ironic that with respect to best practices you happened to choose "an IT bible ... that spelled out procedures for running an IT shop": it's called ITIL. Anyone in IT should make themselves familiar with it and benefit from decades of tried and tested best practices. They were true long before modern commodity technology but are still applicable. Admittedly, anyone who claimed their product is critical to any of these process-oriented best practices is spouting crap.

      You've also completely missed the point with SOA: it's not about Web Services, it's about business service orientation. It's an approach that can be used to design systems that work like their organisations, promoting ownership, the lack of which can make even the most technically correct systems not just worthless but a negative influence on the company.

    8. Re:Those aren't all by Zalbik · · Score: 1

      Compare AJAX Gmail with the HTML-only version of Gmail. It's pretty dramatic.

      Dramatic. Sorry, no.

      Flashy, yes.

      Please list a requirement that is met by AJAX that isn't met by HTML. The only thing is "I don't want my page to briefly disappear during data updates".

      That's it. That's all AJAX offers.

      Wow.

      For this we are willing to put up with a whole crap-load of non-standardized buggy security-hole ridden API's that try and pound the round peg of the web into the square hole of a technology we already had...thick clients.

      Just goes to show that with a cool acronym and some flash, you can sell almost anything to the new breed of geeks.

    9. Re:Those aren't all by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      We're in a project to convert some of our website workflow (e commerce site you probably use) to a service based architecture, and oh my lord, the PM is slapping SOA on every goddamned thing he can find: the project got redubbed as some phrase 'on SOA', the main service we're using is constantly referred to as a SOA service, even though it's not named that and a SOA service doesn't mean a damned thing, there are signs up all around about SOA crap. Jesus christ, it's just a service architecture, and anyway it's a running battle to get people to do a service arch. instead of sucking all the functionality into a big central blob.

      I need a drink

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    10. Re:Those aren't all by Imsdal · · Score: 1

      "Web 2.0" AJAX has been revolutionary, from my prospective as an end-user. Compare AJAX Gmail with the HTML-only version of Gmail. It's pretty dramatic. Meebo, Google Docs, Google Wave, etc. These are very different ways of interacting with the Internet than plain old HTML.

      This is setting the bar awfully low. Compare instead to full client versions of e-mail and other office applications. They are miles and miles ahead on usability. The web, great as it is, should really get a terrible mark for pulling usability 10-15 years back. It has improved, and by a lot. But it's still behind, and not closing up very quickly.

    11. Re:Those aren't all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lean IT - Cut half your staff and spend 3x what you were paying them to pay us for doing the exact same thing only with worse service.

      Sorry that this is a bit off topic but it is bone of contention of mine. When Lean is implemented properly (and I'll admit very few do it properly) there should be few lay offs. The point of Lean is to reduce the waste in your processes to allow you to do more with the same amount of work. It requires a great respect for your employees. Unfortunately most employers see it as a way to reduce head count which then dooms the entire project and claim that lean does not work.

  27. Anybody remember "Push" technology? by scorp1us · · Score: 1

    And all that brouhaha surrounding it? We were supposed to sit back and have all that junk crammed down our throats, but we'd want it all, because the database would have our marketing preferences.

    What about Linux? (On the desktop) (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

    --
    Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
  28. Incredible labor saving devices by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    Incredible labor saving devices of the future! Vacuum Cleaner salesmen would always say they were labor saving devices. They are actually _more_ work than sweeping with a broom, but the end result is cleaner (brooms just move dust around). Of course, telling a PHB that the virtual environment will cost more in hardware and manpower but will be 3x as good doesn't win points. PHB only wants reduction in cost.

  29. Hello, IT department. by theinvisibleguy · · Score: 1

    Have you tried turning it off and turning it on again?

  30. Bad specifications... by osu-neko · · Score: 1

    "The idea of CASE was to produce better code faster by having a computer do it," says McLean. "Just feed your specifications into the front end, and it'll spit out flawless code. The vendors counted on customers who did not realize that the biggest problem in these projects is bad specifications, and they found a lot of those customers. So, people fed bad specs in one end and got bad code out of the other."

    So, they never asked a single professional programmer? XD Seriously, has ANYONE EVER gotten a spec that wasn't ridiculously underspecified, internally contradictory, and containing numerous very very bad ideas? Anyone who's done any professional coding knows that the best way to make a product that probably does not look good and certainly does not do anything useful and does not even work right for the things it does do, is to give the customer exactly what they asked for. Although I've used that as a tactic before as a starting point. First, implement exactly what they asked for, then rather than trying to explain to them why that won't work, show them. But I use that as a last resort...

    --
    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    1. Re:Bad specifications... by computational+super · · Score: 1
      So, they never asked a single professional programmer?

      Of course not! Remember, CASE (like every other "silver bullet" technology) replaces programmers. So, there's no point in asking programmers what they think - they'll just badmouth it because they're terrified of being replaced. That's bullet point one of any technology cure-all. It's a "programmer killer"... so there's no reason to involve them in the decision making process.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
  31. I call BS on this story by FranTaylor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Artificial intelligence" - what's keeping the spam out of YOUR inbox? How does Netflix decide what to recommend to you? Ever gotten directions from Google Maps?

    "Computer-aided software engineering" - tools like valgrind, findbugs, fuzzing tools for finding security problems.

    "Thin clients" - ever heard of a "Web Browser"?

    "Enterprise social media" - That really describes most of the Internet

    As soon as I saw an opionion from "Ron Enderle" I knew this story would be BS.

    1. Re:I call BS on this story by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Basically, all of these things have been realized, just not in the grand, earth-shattering ways that they were hyped up to be. Netflix recommending movies based on statistical correlation of what other people watch can be considered a form of "AI", but it's nothing like having a conversation with HAL9000. And a web browser, while definitely doing many of the things a "thin client" would do (especially if you use something like Google Docs), still isn't really a "thin client" if you're running it on a 3GHz system with Windows Vista/7 which needs 2GB of memory just for the OS.

      As for Rob Enderle, yes, anything that refers to him as an authority is not to be trusted. It's always funny how every time I see an article refer to him, they have to add that he's "principal analyst" at the Enderle "Group". Do they even have any other analysts? I'm pretty sure he's the only one. What a joke.

    2. Re:I call BS on this story by evilviper · · Score: 1

      "Artificial intelligence" - what's keeping the spam out of YOUR inbox? How does Netflix decide what to recommend to you? Ever gotten directions from Google Maps?

      All just (weighted) statistical analysis.

      "Computer-aided software engineering" - tools like valgrind, findbugs, fuzzing tools for finding security problems.

      You're simply redefining the term into something that exists... CASE is a program which takes your high-level specifications and writes working programs for you. None of these testing/debugging tools does anything remotely similar.

      "Thin clients" - ever heard of a "Web Browser"?

      A web browser is, by far, the FATTEST application running on my PC. For two orders of magnitude more CPU and memory usage, I can check my e-mails through a slow, lagging, and clumsy web interface, instead of running a small, fast, user-friendly MUA, as we all were 10, 20, 30+ years ago. What a time to be alive!

      Besides, as always, internet apps continue to be gimmicks. Before anyone chimes-in, yes, Google Maps is okay, but (A) the interface doesn't work any faster or better than mapquest and (B) if someone, ANYONE would have provided a free mapping application which could be run locally, Google maps wouldn't have attracted any interest. Nobody got around to providing free (ad-supported) map applications before. And notice that Google Earth is a normal application and not web-based.

      "Enterprise social media" - That really describes most of the Internet

      No, "social media" describes most of the internet. "Enterprise social media" describes a very different product, which never caught on.

      Or perhaps I should say:
      "Giant armored exploding cars" - That really describes most everything on the roads. Right??? Right???

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    3. Re:I call BS on this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "As soon as I saw an opionion from "Ron Enderle" I knew this story would be BS"

      His opinions are actually quite useful. It seems that you can bank on the opposite of any of his predictions with a high degree of accuracy following that formula.

  32. A failure of terminology, not of technology by camionbleu · · Score: 1

    In the early 90s (pre-web), I worked on two of the technologies mentioned in the article. First, thin clients. I worked on a system where we had a thin user interface layer (two versions: Windows and OS/2 Presentation Manager) talking to a powerful server backend that was doing database lookups and heavy number crunching. It worked well, but this type of architecture morphed into web applications in the mid-90s, and people stopped talking about "thin clients". However, a browser talking to an e-commerce backend or pretty much any other type of web app is precisely that: a thin client. The article is quite foolish to say that thin clients are "making a bit of a comeback". In fact, they have quietly taken over.

    Secondly, AI. I worked on an expert system in the late 80s and early 90s that worked very well (and had modest commercial success). To this day, there are plenty of rule-based systems and neural networks in use in real-world situations such as decision support. But the term "artificial intelligence" made non-technical people overestimate what was possible at the time. Looking back, it was a term that encouraged people to overestimate what was possible. However, the set of technologies that were commonly referred to as AI have not generally failed -- only the term itself, "artifical intelligence", has fallen out of favour.

  33. Cloud Computing? by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

    That's only hype if you don't understand why you'd use it.

    You're building a website for example; you think it *might* become highly popular & high bandwidth. Normally you'd have two options; 1, invest in a tonne of infrastructure just in case and risk hugely over investing in nothing; 2, don't bother and risk collapsing under strain of hugely underestimating traffic demands.

    Well, cloud computing takes that worry off your shoulders. If your app needs more "cloud"; you can give it extra juice in minutes without any interruption to service. In azure anyway it's just an XML file change - "instance count" to add/remove more/less VMs to your collection. Insane amounts of processing horsepower if you want; nay if you have the cash to match it you can have thousands of servers at your command without even restarting the app. That's value, and it doesn't even take much to "cloudify" an app either.

    Yes it costs more to feed it more processing, but you know you only pay for what you need at any time.

    So no; cloud computing isn't perfect or for everyone; but it certainly has its' place.

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
  34. ERP is snake oil? by bazorg · · Score: 2, Funny

    Funny the bit about ERP software. Essentially they say that ERP is not as good as people expected, but once you apply some Business Intelligence solutions you'll be sorted.

  35. I doubt validity of TFA by S3D · · Score: 2, Insightful
    From TFA, philippic against social media:

    That's too much information. Before they know it, their scientists are talking to the competition and trade secrets are leaking out."

    I don't think author has a clue. The secrets which could be accidentally spilled are not worth keeping. If it so short it bound to be trivial, really essential results are megabytes and megabytes of data or code or know-how. Treat your researcher as prisoners, get prison science in return.

  36. Speech Recognition Software? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What about speech-recognition software? In the mid 90s Microsoft and IBM thought it was going to be huge, but it remains limited to niche markets.

  37. Java by Marrow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It was not too long ago that Java was going to:
    Give us applets to do what Browsers can never do: Bring animated and reactive interfaces to the web browsing experience!
    Take over the desktop. Write once, run anywhere and render the dominance of Intel/MS moot by creating a neutral development platform!

    Yes, perhaps its found a niche somewhere. But its fair to say it fell short of the hype.

    1. Re:Java by ChefInnocent · · Score: 1

      Whoever marked you troll has no sense of history. Java was suppose to do all that. However, we were "saved" from client-side Java with the introduction of JavaScript into the 4.0 browsers (yes it existed before 4.0, but you couldn't do much with it). Of course, we had to suffer from all the Java zealots who wanted it server-side too, so we had to endure servlets.

      I don't know what Java looks like today, I just know two things: 1) I got sick of things being deprecated every flipping week, and 2) on the boxes I haven't uninstalled it, it wants an update damn near daily. I'm guessing based on #2, that #1 is still an issue.

      Back in the mid-90's Java was to be a panacea of all that ailed the computer world. I'm thankful Sun didn't get their wish, cause it brought a lot of needless pain.

    2. Re:Java by Bill+Dog · · Score: 1

      Java was the last gasp of a dying hardware company struggling for relevance. That's why it was oversold. It concomitantly underperformed due to being relatively the pioneer in VM-based C++-like languages, but having aimed too low.

      --
      Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
    3. Re:Java by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      Java failed on the desktop largely because Microsoft wouldn't let it operate there in any standard way.
      Microsoft was DAMN scared of it when it first came out. It prodded the whole .NET initiative. The last thing
      Microsoft wanted was a neutral development platform that actually worked on their platform.

      When Java first came out, technical people thought it would be a good idea to just include a standard java
      environment with every OS, so that those Applets would actually work without requiring a massive JRE
      download before starting.

      Of course, a better class-file and jar-file caching standard included in the java standards as part of every jre
      would also have helped, so that large applet code could be cached, but Microsoft would have sabotaged that as well.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  38. One statment is support of CASE by jd.schmidt · · Score: 1

    There is kind of a paradox about things like CASE, sometimes the better they work the MORE progamers you need because people always want MORE and now producing the final prodect is easier, so you get more for your money.

    So consider what computers did for us in 1980 vs. what they do today. Improvements in programing have made is possible and cost effective to do what we do now. So CASE may have been a total sucess, from the point of view of someone in the 80's, but the net result is increased demand, not reduced.

  39. House MD Expert System by Dareth · · Score: 1

    House Rule for AI Medical Expert Systems:

    Patients lie.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  40. Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by jc42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The most obvious counterexample to the "AI" nonsense is to consider that, back around 1800 or any time earlier, it was obvious to anyone that the ability to count and do arithmetic was a sign of intelligence. Not even smart animals like dogs or monkeys could add or subtract; only we smart humans could do that. Then those engineer types invented the adding machine. Were people amazed by the advent of intelligent machines? No; they simply reclassified adding and subtracting as "mechanical" actions that required no intelligence at all.

    Fast forward to the computer age, and you see the same process over and over. As soon as something becomes routinely doable by a computer, it is no longer considered a sign of intelligence; it's a mere mechanical activity. Back in the 1960s, when the widely-used programming languages were Fortran and Cobol, the AI researchers were developing languages like LISP that could actually process free-form, variable-length lists. This promised to be the start of truly intelligent computers. By the early 1970s, however, list processing was taught in low-level programming courses and had become a routine part of the software developers toolkits. So it was just a "software engineering" tool, a mechanical activity that didn't require any machine intelligence.

    Meanwhile, the AI researchers were developing more sophisticated "intelligent" data structures, such as tables that could associate arbitrary strings with each other. Did these lead to development of intelligent software? Well, now some of our common programming languages (perl, prolog, etc.) include such tables as basic data types, and the programmers use them routinely. But nobody considers the resulting software "intelligent"; it's merely more complex computer software, but basically still just as mechanical and unintelligent as the first adding machines.

    So my prediction is that we'll never have Artificial Intelligence. Every new advance in that direction will always be reclassified from "intelligent" to "merely mechanical". When we have computer software composing best-selling music and writing best-selling novels or creating entire computer-generated movies from scratch, it will be obvious that such things are merely mechanical activities, requiring no actual intelligence.

    Whether there will still be things that humans are intelligent enough to do, I can't predict.

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    1. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When we have computer software composing best-selling music and writing best-selling novels or creating entire computer-generated movies from scratch, it will be obvious that such things are merely mechanical activities, requiring no actual intelligence.

      When looking at some best-selling stuff, I'm already not sure that you need intelligence to produce it. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most obvious counterexample to the "AI" nonsense is to consider that, back around 1800 or any time earlier, it was obvious to anyone that the ability to count and do arithmetic was a sign of intelligence. Not even smart animals like dogs or monkeys could add or subtract; only we smart humans could do that. Then those engineer types invented the adding machine. Were people amazed by the advent of intelligent machines? No; they simply reclassified adding and subtracting as "mechanical" actions that required no intelligence at all.

      Fast forward to the computer age, and you see the same process over and over. As soon as something becomes routinely doable by a computer, it is no longer considered a sign of intelligence; it's a mere mechanical activity. Back in the 1960s, when the widely-used programming languages were Fortran and Cobol, the AI researchers were developing languages like LISP that could actually process free-form, variable-length lists. This promised to be the start of truly intelligent computers. By the early 1970s, however, list processing was taught in low-level programming courses and had become a routine part of the software developers toolkits. So it was just a "software engineering" tool, a mechanical activity that didn't require any machine intelligence.

      Meanwhile, the AI researchers were developing more sophisticated "intelligent" data structures, such as tables that could associate arbitrary strings with each other. Did these lead to development of intelligent software? Well, now some of our common programming languages (perl, prolog, etc.) include such tables as basic data types, and the programmers use them routinely. But nobody considers the resulting software "intelligent"; it's merely more complex computer software, but basically still just as mechanical and unintelligent as the first adding machines.

      So my prediction is that we'll never have Artificial Intelligence. Every new advance in that direction will always be reclassified from "intelligent" to "merely mechanical". When we have computer software composing best-selling music and writing best-selling novels or creating entire computer-generated movies from scratch, it will be obvious that such things are merely mechanical activities, requiring no actual intelligence.

      Whether there will still be things that humans are intelligent enough to do, I can't predict.

      What do you think of emerging cure-alls like VDI and "Cloud Computing"? I subscribe to the concept of the Gartner "Hype Curve" that basically says most "new technology" undergoes a standard curve of initial, wildly over-stated expectations, followed by a "crash" where the technology is demonized or eventually ignored, followed by a "plateau of productivity" in which the real (but limited) benefits of the technology are determined and appropriately utilized.

    3. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Informative

      The most obvious counterexample to the "AI" nonsense is to consider that, back around 1800 or any time earlier, it was obvious to anyone that the ability to count and do arithmetic was a sign of intelligence. Not even smart animals like dogs or monkeys could add or subtract; only we smart humans could do that.

      Interestingly, in recent years, many animals have been found to be able to perform simple mathematical tasks.

      Dolphins:
      http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep05/marine.html
      Monkeys:
      http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317526,00.html
      Dogs can do calculus:
      http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20031008/Feature1.asp

    4. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by hemp · · Score: 1

      Even in the 1800's they had chickens that could play tic-tac-toe and win.

      --
      Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
    5. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by zuperduperman · · Score: 1

      Indeed. And on top of what you have said - if anyone does achieve "true" artificial intelligence then nobody would want it, because it will include all the traits that we so desperately want to eliminate. Eg: machines will have to start becoming inaccurate, emotional, imaginative, needy etc. as these are all fundamental to our "intelligence" as humans. Should anyone every actually achieve this we will quickly classify it as a useless curiosity and go back to pursuing more reliable "mechanical" goals that we will naturally refuse to classify as AI.

    6. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Which reminds me of my AI prof: "If it doesn't work, it's AI. If it works, it's software engineering." The punch line being that this line of reasoning applied to the same topics, just at different points in time.

      I'm convinced that we won't know when hard AI will be first around. Everyone will be too busy calling it a dumb program.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    7. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by acheron12 · · Score: 1
      --
      there is no god but truth, and reality is its prophet
    8. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by lawpoop · · Score: 1
      I sort of agree with you, but not your assessment.

      Not even smart animals like dogs or monkeys could add or subtract; only we smart humans could do that.

      The problem is that all sorts of animals and dumb people can do things that computers cannot do. Such as walk down a hallway, or walk a trail in the woods, or catch a frisbee in mid-air, or pick out your species' mating call in a woodland cacophony. People thought that if computers can do the "hard" stuff, such as solving complex equations, surely it's no problem for a computer to tell a frown from a smile, right? Even mentally disabled people can do that. Instead, what we find out is that computers are like intellectual savants: the hard stuff is easy for them, but the easy stuff is impossible. When they can do it, it's the the most limited and restricted of circumstances. But almost any animal is capable of chasing down prey, or out-maneuvering predators, or some devilishly difficult "AI" problem, and doing it with very little brainpower.

      When we have computer software composing best-selling music and writing best-selling novels or creating entire computer-generated movies from scratch, it will be obvious that such things are merely mechanical activities, requiring no actual intelligence.

      I'll believe it when I see it. So far, any AI seems to be an algorithm for solving a well-posed problems. Think of the Dialogue with Meno's slave. Socrates is able to prove the reality of reincarnation by questioning a slave about the geometrical properties of squares. In answering these questions, the slave 'showed' he had advanced knowledge of geometry, which he was never taught, so that 'proved' he had learned it in a past life; Socrates merely helped him remember it.

      Actually, what really happened is that the slave acted as a simple calculator, much like today's computers. Socrates was the man behind the curtain, so to speak. He broke the problem down into simple problems that a slave could answer. Likewise with today's programmers. They pose simple problems with algorithms for solving it, and viola! The slave knows geometry. Meanwhile, once Socrates is out of the picture, the slave is somehow dumb again.

      Computers are good at solving well-posed problems. They aren't any good at creative works, such as dreaming up a new geometric proof, a GUT, a plot of a novel, a picture, painting, or any interesting visual work ( that's not just a simple expression of a mathematical formula, such as a fractal), or a decent tune.

      I think any device that is able to do creative work will a qualitatively different from the Turing machines we're familiar with today. This type of device will have no problem walking down a hall or ginning up a tune, but might have problems with advanced trig.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    9. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Good post. I wouldn't doubt that scenario.

      One alternative would be learning algorithms, where we don't exactly know what the code is at any given moment, and one day, hardware becomes fast enough, parallel enough, and the input/output of the machine fast enough that it begins learning exponentially and "wakes up".

      I'm not sure that everyone would agree that it is merely mechanical if it sort of 'grew' and wasn't line by line hand coded. Even more abstractly, what if the growing was done in a virtual biological environment exactly duplicating conditions in real life, a virtual human? What if the learning algorithms were instructed to create the virtual environment and check it against real biological input (monitoring animals nervous systems by producing light, sound smells, being given more and more tools that the computer could actually use and experiment with).

      Who knows, its fun to think about though:)

    10. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Tracy+Reed · · Score: 1

      Well, now some of our common programming languages (perl, prolog, etc.) include such tables as basic data types, and the programmers use them routinely.

      Perl sure, but Prolog? A common programming language?

    11. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by jc42 · · Score: 1

      And on top of what you have said - if anyone does achieve "true" artificial intelligence then nobody would want it, because it will include all the traits that we so desperately want to eliminate. Eg: machines will have to start becoming inaccurate, emotional, imaginative, needy etc. as these are all fundamental to our "intelligence" as humans.

      Well, I'm afraid you may be right. And it's a variant of something that a few AI researchers have pointed out: There's no point to duplicating human intelligence. We have a perfectly good way of getting that already, and our problem is that we have an oversupply. What would be a more useful result would be machines that were intelligent in different ways than we are.

      The usual parallel is with other machines. We have machines that fly. They don't duplicate birds or bats or insects; the useful flying machines do it in different ways that are more useful to humans. No flying creature can carry the tons of people or freight that the airlines do. Similarly, someone has pointed out that asking whether machines can think like we do is as pointless as asking whether a submarine can swim like a fish. Of course not; it "swims" in a manner that's more useful to us than a true fish mimic would be. Of course, airplanes and submarines have a superficial resemblance to birds and fish, for the simple engineering reason of efficient motion through the air and water. But the resemblance pretty much ends there, for very practical reasons. And on land, we have many kinds of vehicles that aren't mimics of horses or other beasts of burden; they're designed to have large capacity and higher speeds than the animals they (mostly) replaced. The fact that most of them are limited to roadways that we also build isn't a serious problem; we don't much need all-terrain vehicles for most of our purposes.

      Similarly, we could argue that the AI computer researchers have had a great deal of success. Decades ago, we had machines that were capable of very fast arithmetic, and not much more. Now we have machines that are replacing many kinds of menial tasks that used to require human intelligence. It's true that they aren't very intelligent; they're doing a lot of "mindless" tasks that used to require a human mind, but now can be relegated to a machine. They do these tasks very fast, and don't get bored and sloppy like any semi-intelligent person does. This is a growing benefit to us, especially as it frees up many human minds for more "lofty" pursuits (while it introduces the social problems caused by a reduced need for uneducated human workers).

      But we still have the problem that even these successes are disparaged by the people who consider themselves above all that geeky stuff. We see this in the current article, which lists AI as a total failure. In fact, the AI researchers are responsible for a fair number of technical advances in the software field. Software engineering depends on a lot of their developments for many things that used to be wild futuristic speculation, and now are extensive libraries for handling complex data structures. Many of their wild ideas are incorporated in our more advanced programming languages. That may not be success in creating a god-like machine intelligent, but it's not failure.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    12. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Perl sure, but Prolog? A common programming language?

      Heh. Actually, I probably should have said Python. Prolog is what I usually like to use as an example of a major failing of the software industry. I may use Prolog in a few of my own projects, but in the business/industrial world, I've always been turned down when I try to introduce it. I keep running into problems where I find myself thinking "This would only take a few lines of Prolog." But instead, I spend weeks or months programming a stripped-down mimic of resolution logic. It would be so much easier if I just had the whole package available for use when that kind of problem comes up. Of course, nobody else on the team understands what I'm talking about, or believes that the task would be an afternoon's job (or less) in the right language, since they've never seen anything that packages Prolog's little trick of logic. They've often been impressed by the "AI" routine that I implemented to do something they doubted was doable, and I get lotsa geek points out of it. But I can't convince them that they've missed an important bit of software technology.

      There's also the number crunching arena, where I've known a number of people who lament the fact that the good idea behind APL never much caught on. That's also something that could be usefully incorporated into many other languages. After all, if you have some function in your library, it's rather easy for a compiler to generate the loops to do it across arbitrary arrays. It's not a sophisticated trick any more, and easily within the capabilities of modern compilers or interpreters. You'd think by now that scalar operators in particular would automatically parallelize when fed arrays as args. But for some reason, this simple software-engineering advance isn't available in any of our common languages. Not even now that nearly everyone is buying laptops with multiple cpus, which could really parallelize a lot of things with no extra code needed.

      But as some other software sage observed, contrary to Newton's famous comment, in the software business we don't stand on the shoulders of giants; we step on their toes.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    13. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by jc42 · · Score: 1

      haha, did you just say humanity has an oversupply of intelligence??

      Well, we don't seem to making very good use of it, do we? ;-)

      When a resource is sitting around in plain sight, unused, you'd usually conclude that you have an oversupply. Either that, or you're not intelligent enough to make use of an available resource.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    14. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by tambo · · Score: 1
      "As soon as something becomes routinely doable by a computer, it is no longer considered a sign of intelligence; it's a mere mechanical activity."

      I don't think that's a fair comparison.

      "Intelligence" isn't just being able to solve a particular problem, regardless of its difficulty. If you throw the smartest chess algorithm in the world at a map, it won't be able to tell you how to get from point A to point B.

      Obviously, "intelligence" involves many of the meta-qualities of problem-solving: inductive logic and generalization, deductive logic, the development and use of heuristics, the recognition of general problems and solutions in different domains - flexibility, spontaneity, personality, predictiveness, humor, semantic language skills, self-awareness, curiosity, intellectual growth, the development of goals...

      We might be able to develop an algorithm to tackle one, or even a *few*, of these skills - but only in a narrow domain. Even our best language translators typically understand very little linguistic comprehension, and then only in a specific language or topical domain. Yet, the average five-year-old child demonstrates ALL of these capabilities.

      Even at a basic level, these skills are what we would consider "intelligence." When we have a machine that demonstrates even a very rudimentary set of these capabilities, it will be considered intelligent. The rest will just be refinement and scaling up.

      - David Stein

      --
      Computer over. Virus = very yes.
    15. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, right. You'll change your mind once they get smart enough to argue successfully with you.

    16. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this is so, then the hunt for Artificial Intelligence leads us closer and closer to the realization of that "core" which makes us distinctly human. What does it mean to be a human if everything can be replicated by AI? What is everything? :)

    17. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These are not mutually exclusive options.. We (as humanity) have an oversupply of intelligence _and_ we are to stupid to make use of it..

    18. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or spell too correctly

    19. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by SkunkPussy · · Score: 1

      prolog is certainly common in academia

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    20. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      I think you're making some false assertions. Did you see that program that was generating symphonies in the style of the greats? I'd say we already have programs that can churn out interesting works of art.

      But you'll say, of course "But that's just a well-posed problem, and it's brute forcing it anyway." Sure, but how can you describe what we do as anything but brute forcing? Musicians spend hours upon hours every week honing and refining their work. It's a brute force search if you ask me, with some optimization (which we can put into the program.)

      So we already have devices that can do creative work, they're Turing machines (though they do work in parallel, so I suppose you have that going for you.)

      And yes, the computers can't do it without training. But how many people do you know that do music without years of study and learning from others?

    21. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. What? I don't even want to get into the projected singularity.

    22. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's 100% true that intelligence, the act of thought is a process in our minds that can be recreated in a mechanical manner, especially using computers.

      I agree that we are not advanced at all in the process of AI and I think the first important steps in creating true AI is understanding the human brain better.

    23. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A true Artificial Intelligence would display sentience and self awareness coupled with free thought, as well as the ability to learn and create. I'm pretty sure that any mechanical system that accomplishes all these will be pretty easy to recognize as an actual AI - although I seriously doubt it will closely resemble a human intelligence. There have been some pretty amazing developments in learning systems lately (and DARPA has admitted they are hard at work on self aware cognitive systems), and a few of them have skirted the issue of awareness - ie; asking if they are alive or dead etc. Either way, I wonder if it will make a difference if we create a system that can demonstrate everything we consider necessary for a self aware intelligence. Perhaps the author could even be seen to ask what happens when we are confronted with the fact that we are machines as well - merely biologically evolved instead of mechanically created machines but machines none the less? I submit that a stunning piece of music or a intrinsically crafted book are all the more amazing because they are created by a 'mechanical process' whatever the being that fulfills those processes may be. Or to put it another way - math is no less beautiful because it is done on a calculator.

    24. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Veggie13 · · Score: 0

      I'd point out that operations like addition have always been mechanical. If a caveman has two rocks in a pile, and three rocks in his hand, and throws them into the pile, he now has five rocks. This is essentially the same thing a computer is doing. Now, developing the mental model to understand what arithmetic is and how it works: that's intelligence.

    25. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      You're talking about Artificial Ignorance. When you leave consciousness out of the equation, you will never get the answer. True Artificial Intelligence will involve biocomputing.

    26. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by jc42 · · Score: 1

      I think the first important steps in creating true AI is understanding the human brain better.

      Well, maybe, but maybe not. Consider flight: We finally made practical flying machines when some experimenters gave up on trying to imitate birds, and just worked on building machines that could fly. The results were only superficially similar to birds, and functioned rather differently..

      Actually, understanding the details of how birds fly followed from what we learned by building other kinds of flying gadgetry (airplanes, helicopters, blimps, kites). For a century or more, there was a running joke about how aerodynamic theory proved that bumblebees can't fly. It was only around 1990 that scientists figured out how bumblebees fly, and it involves a process very different from how airplanes and helicopters (and birds) fly. So far, this hasn't turned out to be very useful for us, since it doesn't scale up to objects much larger than a moth or dragonfly. But our non-avian aerodynamics has turned out to be very practical for many purposes. Only recently have we finally succeeding at building small flying gadgets that use flapping wings similar to birds' wings, and they don't yet have any practical uses. The ultralights, which are very unlike anything in nature, are far more practical.

      Also, as others have pointed out, we really don't need computers that mimic human intelligence. We have a plentiful supply of humans that can do that, and we're hardly using them to full capacity. It's more likely that we'll learn how do build intelligences by continuing the path we're already on, building more and more complex experimental software structures that can deal with new kinds of information problem solving. Eventually this might lead to better theories of intelligence, though we'll more like call it "computability" or something similar. Understanding of the human mind might eventually develop after we've learned how to build things that implement "intelligence" very different from ours to solve problems that we can't do well.

      We also have examples of natural processes that we didn't even know existed until after we invented them ourselves. Consider our rotary engines powered by chemical processes. Such things do exist in nature. The bacterial flagellum is one example. But we only learned this in recent decades, about two centuries after the first rotary motors were developed for human industry and transport. Similarly, some fish have had electro-chemical "batteries" for probably millions of years, but we didn't understand them until we'd been making our own batteries for over a century.

      In general, we've often had more success by figuring things out ourselves, which then leads to understanding of how the things in nature actually work.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    27. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by mario_grgic · · Score: 1

      That's such a poor argument, because all you are really saying is that more and more people are becoming aware of what is computable.

      But, on the other hand, I would define intelligence exactly the same as you, because that is the best working definition "something is intelligent if it can persuade me that it is intelligent". The intelligent entity has to persuade everyone that it is intelligent, which is always going to be heavily biased towards human types of mental ability.

      We currently don't consider animals too intelligent because they are not intelligent in relations to us (not relative to us, but how much they can relate to us and fulfill out human expectations). Animals do solve problems, make tools, show signs of limited abstract thinking, yet most of us will happily eat them for lunch and not feel guilty about it the least.

      It's the same with artificial forms of intelligence. The intelligent entity will have to work hard to persuade us that it can fulfill our expectations, but if it does we will have no alternative but to recognize that it is intelligent.

      But even then, most people will have objections that the thing is conscious, has feelings or should have rights (same as with animals, we just don't want to think of them that way, since we currently eat them).

      --
      As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
    28. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Even our best language translators typically understand very little linguistic comprehension, and then only in a specific language or topical domain. Yet, the average five-year-old child demonstrates ALL of these capabilities.

      Very true. But probably not all that important, because we don't need artificial 5-year-olds. ;-)

      I'd suggest that AI success might follow more easily from concentrating on that "only in a specific language or topical domain" part. Like other engineering advance, that's where we have problems that we aren't good at solving, but could well be amenable to computer assistance.

      A semi-humorous example from several projects that I've worked on: When faced with the usual problems in making the code portable to different systems, I've often written a little perl program that opens one or more files under /usr/man and reads through the text, extracting information. The program's output is usually C or related languages, and includes definitions of constants, initial values of variables (or tables of such), and sometimes a few small low-level routines for dealing with parts of the system that vary. Inevitably, some of the others eventually notice, and respond with something like "What??? You wrote a program that reads the manual and generates code?" I adopt an innocent look, and basically say "Yeah, uh, is there a problem with that?" It especially impresses management when they find that it works. But I just point out that they have several known or suspected perl (and/or python) programmers on the team, and we consider this sort of thing routine. It's one of the reasons that particular tool was developed, y'know, and it's easier than doing it by hand on every new machine that comes along.

      But this isn't a violation of the known problems with machine understanding of natural human languages. It's dealing with a very narrow sort of English, the kind found in technical documentation. This isn't at all like trying to get the machine to understand general English. It's not easy, and it took us a few decades to build tools that made it tractable. But it's only practical for reasonably narrow technical dialects, which are typically much more regular and less ambiguous than the general language. And the code doesn't have converse with random humans; it only has to extract certain very narrowly-defined information from the text, much of which consists of snippets of code surrounded by an explanation of what they are.

      Similarly, software that generates fairly readable English output isn't all that difficult, especially for very narrow technical topics. Lots of us do that routinely. But we're not trying to make the machine communicate with 5-year-olds; we're trying to make them communicate technical information to people who (maybe;-) should understand it.

      Maybe this will never lead to computers that can usefully talk to infants. If so, it doesn't matter, because we'll still have lots of those things called "parents" that can do that job. But we might be able to make machines that can do something that most humans won't be able to do, which is to communicate better with the more technically-trained people that are using the computers. And, as has happened in other areas of engineering, this could eventually lead to somewhat better computer communication with less technical people.

      But we probably won't call it "intelligent". When we get it working, we call it "engineering". ;-)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    29. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      do you believe your brain is you? ie, do you believe your mind is a result of the chemical and electrical system that is the brain?

      if yes, then AI is possible and in fact probable to occur. duplicate this process and you have AI, heck one could argue there is no AI only Intelligence systems. if i build an organic mind is it any less artificial or any less a mind? what if i build the same thing in silicon? or out of cogs? it doesn't matter if the calculations are done with silicon, meat, or on your fingers. if we can recreate the calculations which are midn then we can recreate the mind. ie, if the mind is material and physical (or represented with signals which are material).

      if instead you think the mind is supernatural or in some way not bound to the material world then no we can not recreate the mind.

      guess which point of view is supported by the evidence.....

      of course that says nothing about what is PRACTICAL only what is possible. I think it is practical as well but thats only a personal oppinion of someone who has studied a great deal of computer science and the chemical and electrical behavior of the brain. a layman but an informed one at least.

    30. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bottleneck is elsewhere - some other form of intelligence is in short supply.

    31. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by Breakable · · Score: 1

      When the human race will be terminated, and robots will build their civilization on our ruins I don't think they will consider themselves to possess any actual intelligence.

    32. Re:Why Artificial Intelligence may never exist by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      I think you're making some false assertions. Did you see that program that was generating symphonies in the style of the greats? I'd say we already have programs that can churn out interesting works of art.

      I didn't, but I think you sort of argue my point: those programs just imitated works of art that composers had already created. It's imitative, not creative. It's interesting, and it's a work of art, and they don't sound half-bad, but is it anything *new*?

      If you're going to argue that that's all that human ever do, then how do we get new styles and genres? Where does Jazz and Orchestral Swing music come from? They aren't just re-hashing classical music, or stuff they've heard before.

      That's what I'm arguing that humans have which computers have presently never demonstrated. They ability to create ex nihilo ( relatively speaking -- of course it's all still music, or art ).

      But you'll say, of course "But that's just a well-posed problem, and it's brute forcing it anyway." Sure, but how can you describe what we do as anything but brute forcing? Musicians spend hours upon hours every week honing and refining their work. It's a brute force search if you ask me, with some optimization (which we can put into the program.)

      Well, I agree that practice plays a part, but that can't be all there is, because some people are better than others. Some are geniuses, like Mozart. A computer has never a masterpiece, an epic, an opus.

      So there has to be some algorithm or 'way' of creating music. Just playing scales for years isn't going to mean that you can be a great composer. I played guitar for 10 years before I realized I was tone-deaf, or at least, never going to be any good at it. Meanwhile, a few of my high-school buddies were better in a few months than I was after 10 years. And a lot of musicians never *write* music -- they just play something that's already written. Composing, or creating new works, is a different skill. So no, it can't just be brute force.

      Part of the problem is that we have no formal way of measuring a creative work's originality or value. We can't say, "This piece from Mozart is a 10, where as all computers can come up with is at best a 3". At this point, it's a judgement call by human beings, but not entirely subjective: for people like Mozart, Picasso and Shakespeare, there is large agreement that they created great works of art. I have a hard time believing that considering great artists great is just some kind of elite herd mentality. There is genuinely shitty work out there, and it gets called out. Some stuff is disagreed upon by critics and scholars, but there is really great stuff out there. There may not be any formal definition of 'good art', but I don't think that doesn't mean there is no such thing.

      And yes, the computers can't do it without training. But how many people do you know that do music without years of study and learning from others?

      I'm not arguing computers do it without training. What I am arguing is that computers never invent new genres. To use a metaphor, they search out patterns within the existing domain, but they have not created a new domain.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  41. Worse list ever... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    umm... worse list ever...

    and anyone remember all the shit java was gonna solve for us? i'm still waiting for the OS to not matter. Computers got faster and java go slower. Worse POS ever.

  42. AI already succeeded by ghostlibrary · · Score: 4, Insightful

    AI already has successes. But, as an AI researcher friend of mine points out, once they succeed it's no longer 'AI'. Things like packet routing, used to be AI. Path-finding, as in games, or route-finding, as with GPS: solved. So yes, AI will never arrive, because AI is always 'other than the AI we already have.'

    --
    A.
    1. Re:AI already succeeded by lawpoop · · Score: 0

      AI already has successes. But, as an AI researcher friend of mine points out, once they succeed it's no longer 'AI'.

      That's moving the goalposts. We all know what AI means -- robots that can wash dishes ( any dish in any sink ), fold clothes, vacuum a floor, pick vegetables, or walk down a sidewalk, and do all these stupid tasks that feel so obvious and intuitive to people, that, back in the 1950s, people thought that all we had to do was just hook together a camera, a computer, and robotic limbs.

      In the past 50 years, the goalposts have been moved quite a bit.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  43. What? CASE was a success! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I went through the list and this Computer Aided Software Engineering appears to be a huge success to me.

    Look at the good IDEs and high level languages such as Java and PHP.

    I want to make a web program that sends me emails based on some form data using PHP. I don't need to know how TCP works, I don't need to understand how OS manages files, or how email works, or how data streams are used, or how memory is managed... I just mark certain fields to mean certain parameters and use a function to send the email with the parameters I wanted in the order I want them and I get the end result I want to.

    Yeah, optimized, large programs do need significant amounts of coding. But compare coding a large program with assembly and a notepad to coding that with Java and a good IDE and then tell me that Computer Aided Software Engineering has failed.

    1. Re:What? CASE was a success! by Dog-Cow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's not CASE. CASE was about translating requirements into code without human involvement. Your examples are all about abstraction and APIs.

    2. Re:What? CASE was a success! by daveime · · Score: 2, Funny

      Since when are PHP programmers human ?

      <matrix-parody>
      I'd like to share a revelation I've had with you, it came to me when I tried to classify your programmers. Every programmer on this planet forms a natural equilibrium with the software project, but you PHP programmers do not. You multiply and multiply script snippets until every semblance of readability and logic is removed. And then you simply spread to another project. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is, Morpheus ? .NET
      </matrix-parody>

    3. Re:What? CASE was a success! by camperdave · · Score: 1

      I don't need to know how TCP works

      Yes. That was the whole point of the ISO reference model. Yay 1970s!

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:What? CASE was a success! by sjames · · Score: 1

      That's abstraction and tool use. CASE would claim that you tell the system you want a form to send you email and it just spits it out all debugged and ready to go. Then you tell it you want a word processor, tell it all the features and *POOF* it spits out a bug-free word processor. So simple you can fire all the programmers and do it yourself!

      Yeah, that worked!

    5. Re:What? CASE was a success! by Acer500 · · Score: 1

      I went through the list and this Computer Aided Software Engineering appears to be a huge success to me.

      I agree, and you have seen nothing yet :) . Here in Uruguay we have an even higher level software development platform / code generation tool, GeneXus, which really does automate almost everything for your standard business app. It's still buggy and slow, but it's the future (at least for your standard business app).

      --
      There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    6. Re:What? CASE was a success! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Java or PHP good?

      You must have had a major injury to your head. They represent the worst cases of our current technology.

    7. Re:What? CASE was a success! by heson · · Score: 1

      No, thats the buzzword sci-fi variant of CASE (that no sane man beleved in, only MBAs and Rational Rose sales force). Real CASE is about syntax aware editors and other tools that aids the developer (what gp is on about)

  44. ERP is in use in the film industry today by michaelhawk · · Score: 1
    ERP is being used to organize one of the most fundamentally disorganized business models: filmmaking.

    -

    The software begins with contracts and actor/object/location definitions; connects all this to the script; semi-automatizes the previsualization process; links into all aspects of camera work, lighting, equipment rental and purchasing; defines and limits purchases for the art department and costuming; brings the design teams in direct, continuous, and streamlined communication with the director and department heads, via hand held computers; links into all aspects of post production; cuts the checks.

    Far from being a failure, the software boasts a 5:1 ratio of footage-shot:footage-exhibited, compared to the average of 40:1.

    This software has been used on major features like No Country For Old Men.

    The financial benefits of the software-led creative process is impacting the traditional centers of film production.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7979381.stm

  45. 4 out f 6 ain't bad by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

    By my reckoning,
    AI,
    Thin clients (now known as using the cloud or SAAS (Gmail etc) or other webapps on a laptop),
    CASE (What do you think Eclipse with GIT or Subversion is?),
    and ERP are all going strong.

    I think that A. the hype is not usually generated by the majority of people working in the field,
    and B. how strong the hype is is kind of random compared to the progress that's actually going
    on. Perception != Reality.

    Best to investigate deeper in each case, rather than believing either the hype or
    the anti-hype.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  46. In Defense of thin client, esp. for Mac. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Thin clients for Windows Machines don't make much sense in many environments. Thin clients for Macs do. There is one Mac terminal server (http://www.aquaconnect.net) which allows thin clients or Windows machines to run on a Mac server.

    The reason this makes sense is the price of a Mac as compared with a thin client or PC.

    Thin clients (even for Windows) make sense in secure environments and environments that have great turnover (ie. A computer lab, internet caffe). A secure environment is obvious, the data is on the server and does not leave. In a high turnover environment makes administration easier, where you can wipe and restore the environment, though there are some other tools to do that, just not as convenient.

  47. I'm sick of AI meaning one thing by wandazulu · · Score: 1

    Why is AI always referred to as an attempt to create HAL? AI won't succeed until HAL kills the crew and begs for its life. *That* is the end goal for AI, as the general public sees it?

    I would argue that AI is anything where a machine makes a decision without requiring permission. This includes automatic transmissions, autopilot (something they had back in the 30s!), and air conditioning; a device reacted to inputs by itself and made a decision to something without asking. I'd think the reason why AI is impossible is that, if you apply AI concepts as lay-people think of it,you'd see that there is no way to build a system that could account for all the possibilities, while also accounting for the reactions of the people a decision would affect.

    How would an AI conditioner handle an Aunt Tillie (who loves it ice cold at all times), and Uncle John (who can't have it hot enough) in the same room at the same time? People are looking to AI to somehow please both Tillie and John simultaneously, which simply can't be done, and thus somehow this is "AI"'s fault.

    Meanwhile, as it's been pointed out many many times, a lot of modern airplanes simply couldn't fly without computers performing thousands of little adjustments here-and-there to keep the ungainly thing flying straight. Likewise, haven't computers in cars improved car reliability by also being able to make a million tiny changes to things like fuel mixture, braking, airbags, etc.?

  48. TLO by metamatic · · Score: 1

    I remember a CASE tool called The Last One that was briefly hyped as making programming obsolete.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  49. PC, Heal thyself! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "self-healing" software designed to repair its OS and/or other SW. turns out it takes more man-hours to maintain/administrate/repair it.

  50. Where's Cloud Computing on that list?? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I definitely agree with a lot of the items on that list. This time around, however, thin clients are definitely in the running because of all the amazing VDI, virtual app stuff and fast cheap networks. However, anyone who tells you that you can replace every single PC or laptop in your company needs to calm down a little. Same goes for the people who explain thin clients in a way that makes it sound like client problems go away magically. They don't - you just roll them all up into the data center, where you had better have a crack operations staff who can keep everything going. Why? Because if the network fails, your users have a useless paperweighr on their desk until you fix it.

    I'm definitely surprised to not see cloud computing on that list. This is another rehashed technology, this time with the fast cheap network connectivity thrown in. The design principles are great -- build your app so it's abstracted from physical hardware, etc. but I've seen way too many cloud vendors downplay the whole data ownership and vendor lock-in problems. In my opinion, this makes sense for people's Facebook photos, not a company's annual budget numbers.

    1. Re:Where's Cloud Computing on that list?? by Ukab+the+Great · · Score: 1

      The list only covers snake oil. Cloud computing falls under the category of "vendor's magic beans".

  51. How about a less beefy one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about a less beefy one but a production, specced machine?

    1. Re:How about a less beefy one by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      The idea is to have the virtual machine be about as powerful as the production machine. Since the developer doing their normal development in addition to hosting the VM system, they need a beefier machine to handle it all.

  52. AI spinoffs by Lovelander · · Score: 1

    Artificial Intelligence is a body of research that has constantly spun off specific solutions for the past 40 or 50 years: 1) Object orient design/programming was originated in LISP programming decades ago and was used in the development of the original GUI interface APIs and is now taken for granted. 2) Robotic arm kinematics programming was spun off from AI research and is now used to build industrial robots, surgical robots, walking bugs, robot dogs, and is now taken for granted 3) Optical Character Recognition was originally AI research and is now commercialized and taken for granted 4) Speech recognition was originally AI research and is now commercialized and an IT industry of it own 5) Machine vision was originally AI research and has been spun off into its own body of knowledge 6) The blackboard architectural design pattern was originally called "production systems" in AI research and is now considered a standard solution tool 7) Bayesian spam filtering is based on Bayesian clustering, a basis of many AI systems like machine vision. It too is now taken for granted in IT. Artificial Intelligence gets a bad rap because every one of its successes has spawned another software industry. All hail artificial intelligence!

  53. More than two machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    more than two machines wouldn't be needed if they hadn't bought Microsoft "Solutions".

    Virtualisation there merely changed the hardware problem. The licensing problem was made worse. Much worse.

    Unless you moved to OSS. But if you did that, you wouldn't need virtualisation...

  54. That would be a win-win-win by 93,000 · · Score: 2, Funny

    When it's all said and done, that's a good day.

    1. Re:That would be a win-win-win by Imsdal · · Score: 1

      When all is said and done, usually more is said than done.

  55. Difference is neglible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, in CASE you should still have given the requirements to a computer. Tell it what you want done but not need to mind the details as much. It is pretty much what abstractions and APIs are all about.

    In addition, there are many CASEs where it is really hard to tell the difference. Net beans, for example, lets you build a GUI with WYSIWYG drag & drop editor. And write simple programs (calculators, etc. should be very easy) pretty much with right clicking a button, going to it's action and writing "Label13 = field4 * field3;". Sure, it gets more difficult as the program gets more complex... But being able to create GUI pretty much by defining what you want it to look like seems like a clear CASE to my definition.

    1. Re:Difference is neglible by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      One of the big failings of CASE is that you have to translate the business requirements from random English into something that the computer understands (let's call it CASE English) [other human languages could be substituted here, but I'm an obnoxious American]. That right there is the same thing that programmers do every day -- translate English into a language the computer understands (BASIC, COBOL, C, Java, C#, PHP, RoR, HTML, etc.). So, if you are going to be converting the English into CASE English, there's not much difference to converting it to a programming language -- and programmers are already pretty good at it (well, most of them, I could name some names). The results of the CASE step is code in the programming language anyway, which has to be tweaked for the specifics and performance, so why bother with the CASE step when it's not really the hard or time consuming piece of the puzzle (80/20 rule and all).

  56. Storage Virtualization by HockeyPuck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    EMC, IBM, HDS and HP I'm looking at you.

    You've been pushing this Storage Virtualization on us storage admins for years now, and it's more trouble than it's worth. What is it? It's putting some sort of appliance (or in HDS's view a new disk array) in front of all of my other disk arrays, trying to commoditize my back end disk arrays, so that I can have capacity provided by any vendor I choose. You make claims like,

    1. "You'll never have vendor lock-in with Storage virtualization!" However, now that I'm using your appliance to provide the intelligence (snapshots, sync/async replication, migration etc) I'm now locked into your solution.
    2. "This will be easy to manage." How many of these fucking appliances do I need for my new 100TB disk array? When I've got over 300 storage ports on my various arrays, and my appliance has 4 (IBM SVC I'm looking at you), how many nodes do I need? I'm now spending as much time trying to scale up your appliance solution that for every large array I deploy, I need 4 racks worth of appliances.
    3. "This will be homogeneous!" Bull fucking shit. You claimed that this stuff will work with any vendor's disk arrays so that I can purchase the cheapest $/GB arrays out there. No more DMX, just clariion, no more DS8000 now fastT. What a load. You only support other vendor's disk arrays during the initial migration and then I'm pretty much stuck with your arrays until the end of time. So much for your utopian view of any vendor. So now that I've got to standardize on your back end disk arrays, it's not like you're saving me the trouble of only having one loadbalancing software solutions (DMP, Powerpath, HDLM, SDD etc..). If I have DMX on the backend, I'm using Powerpath whether I like it or not. This would have been nice if I was willing to have four different vendor's selling me backend capacity, but since I don't want to deal with service contracts from four different vendors, that idea is a goner.

    Besides, when I go to your large conferences down in Tampa, FL; even your own IT doesn't use it. Why? Because all you did is add another layer of complexity (troubleshooting, firmware updates, configuration) between my servers and their storage.

    You can take this appliance (or switch based in EMC's case) based storage virtualization and Shove It!

    btw: There's a reason why we connect mainframe channels directly to the control units. (OpenSystems translation: Connecting hba ports to storage array ports.) Answer: Cable doesn't need upgrading, doesn't need maintenance contracts and is 100% passive.

    1. Re:Storage Virtualization by afidel · · Score: 1

      For us on the midend storage vmotion provides all the benefits that storage virtualization promised without the drawbacks. Not sure you are going to run a Fortune10 enterprise that way but it sure is nice knowing I can migrate to another SAN without downtime or expensive migration tools or services.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:Storage Virtualization by HockeyPuck · · Score: 1

      Storage Vmotion only works if your entire organization is based upon vmware. I'm not knocking Storage Vmotion, it's a great product for what it does.

      Btw, now you are locked into VmWare. :)

  57. Rob Enderle did the hyping originally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find it hilarious that Rob Enderle is quoted in the article (which automatically means it is valueless) talking about how somethings were over-hyped but he is the guy who is always willing to provide a quote about how the next big fad will have a market value of a bazillion dollars in 2 years. That is why I don't subscribe to magazines who use him as an authority. I would love to see someone go back and get all of his predictions and find what percentage were even close.

  58. They worked - just not well enough by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    All of these technologies, with the possible exception of AI, basically worked, and did what they were supposed to do. The catch was they didn't do it well enough, they were too expensive (financially or otherwise) to deploy, or the problem they solved wasn't worth solving.

    I still remember seeing the mind-boggling array of supposedly-necessary CASE tools that people used on their VAXen when I worked at DEC. I could never figure out how people could actually afford to use them, nor did I ever find any applications people had actually created with them.

    The problem "solved" by thin clients was better solved in other ways. I remember telling potential customers how cool it was to boot an obsolete PC off a floppy then run diskless over the network, when the real answer was to junk the PC and buy a new one.

    AI is another matter entirely. We have expert systems and other goodies, but fully-blown AI just never happened. Will it ever happen? Probably. When? Your guess is as good as mine. It certainly hasn't happened yet.

    ...laura

  59. Add OOAD, UML and Agile into the pile by aspelling · · Score: 1

    Please add OOAD, UML and Agile into the pile.
    While all of these approaches worked somehow none of them has delivered a panacea methodology for programming

    1. Re:Add OOAD, UML and Agile into the pile by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      They are actually so vague that anything that *does* work is really just OOAD/UML/Agile with a little word-play. "Expert Systems" are kind of like this also: anything that stores conditionals in a data-structure or database could be called "expert system".
         

  60. This must be a joke. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't understand how technologies that are still being developed can be considered having "gone bunk." AI? Cloud computing? Virtualization? Come on, is this a joke? (Granted I think [and hope!] cloud computing is going to eventually fall flat on its miserable face.)

  61. what is this crap? by uwnav · · Score: 1

    for one, this is not news. And not in terms of "we already knew this", in terms of this is clearly this misguided opinion of an individual and doesn't provide any new factual information

    I'm tired of reading articles about something dumb somebody wrote in a tech magazine, and everyone here going nerdrage on it

  62. Even worse in the field of Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, this is even worse in the field of Educaiton where IT snake oil salesmen, use their skills to sell talks on new technologies that will revolutionize education as we know it. They get paid to give these lectures to captive Administrative/Instructional audiences under the auspice of staff development. Since many of these IT snake oil salesmen understand the audience so well - they know it is an easy sell because most attendees do not have a technology background.

            It helps if the technologies have already been hyped by the media for other purposes. The latest push is for Web 2.0 technologies, which means just about anything. Right now in our area it is for Social Networking, BLOGs and Wiki to engage the students in the 21st century classroom. Previously, it was one to one computer instruction which was meant to be one device per students. Although that movement has yet to end and still seems to have some life in it. Started as desktops, then laptops and now is migrating to any form of electronic instruction device.

              You'll never guess who would love to see one? You guessed it the device manufacturers. It's great for their bottom line but may not be the most efficient use of resources.

          The worst part for those in IT is that being education there is no shortage of hardcore zealots for any particular cause and if you dare to point out any flaws or even just concerns with the latest cause dujour, you are a complete Neanderthal who is holding them back from complete educational excellence. The truly sad thing for our students is that it is not just with IT technology that this cause dujour phenomenon occurs in education, even well test teaching methodologies are constantly under attack for the latest and greatest new methods. Again with little or no regard to actual results.

            There is little likelihood to see a change to this trend as long as the justifications for so many public school Administrative positions lie on their being able to "innovate" in order to improve the instructional paradigm. About the only way to derail the roller coaster would be for parents to stand up and demand a return to core competencies and proven methodologies. To become more vocal about their children's education than the zealots currently controlling the "agenda of the buzz."

  63. Advanced Technology saying by bb5ch39t · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In honor of Arthur C. Clarke's famous words, I have a button which almost got me fired at work. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo."

    1. Re:Advanced Technology saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very nice manglequote :)

  64. CASE silliness by deuterium · · Score: 1

    I remember reading about CASE tools in my first CS class. The idea was that software would be generated automatically, diminishing the need for programmers. From minute one this made no sense to me. Sure, there's off-the-shelf software, but for anything else, you still need to tell the computer in some way what/where the input is, what to do with it, how it affects other processes, how to return the data, etc. In short, you just push off programming at one level to programming at a different level. It's a false savings. People really seemed to believe that software would start writing itself, though.

  65. Enterprise Social Networking == a news server by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the company I used to work for, .misc in an internal newsgroup hierarchy was the best social networking tool in the company, bar none. Many a time I got help on problems and was able to help others in return. It's also interesting that the news server was run as an unofficial operation throughout and was several times threatened with closure by PHBs. Luckily it survived by judicious policy revision and support from a few clueful senior managers.

  66. Pentium OverDrive by The+Grim+Reefer2 · · Score: 1

    For some reason everyone seems to forget about Intel's campaign in the mid-90's that you would never have to upgrade your computer again. Simply plug a new processor into your existing mobo. Of course the Pentium OverDrive chip was majorly delayed, way more expensive than indicated, had compatibility issues, and underperformed. And then Intel moved on to the Slot-1 processors anyhow.

  67. Brute force is how humans do it by mangu · · Score: 3, Informative

    That $20 DSP does nothing but a brute force search on certain sound patterns. This is not in any way similar to how humans process speech

    Huh? In the ear, "thousands of "hair cells" are set in motion, and convert that motion to electrical signals that are communicated via neurotransmitters to many thousands of nerve cells" . Wouldn't you say the joint work of "thousands of nerve cells" is exactly what "brute force" is about?

    The reason why artificial intelligence still seems so distant is because no artificial computer has the brute force of the human brain. The average brain has tens of billions of neurons, each of which can process thousands of inputs a few hundreds times per second.

    Although computers have been able to simulate smaller assemblages of neurons very precisely, simulating the full scope of a human brain is still off reach, even for Google.

    1. Re:Brute force is how humans do it by phantomcircuit · · Score: 1

      The cochlea is just the sensor. AI is interested in how those electrical signals are translated into meaningful recognition in the brain.

    2. Re:Brute force is how humans do it by ppanon · · Score: 1

      The cochlea is just the sensor. AI is interested in how those electrical signals are translated into meaningful recognition in the brain.

      Well sure, but that sensor implicitly does a sort of Fourier transform on the incoming waveform because the shape of the cochlea means that specific cilia are more sensitive to specific wavelengths of sound vibrations. The brain then does pattern matching on the resulting frequency/intensity value range to turn it into phonemes. What do you think most of the transistors in that DSP is used for? Fourier transforms maybe? OK, there's probably some filters for telltale relative frequency combinations and added circuitry to detect significant pattern transition boundaries and lengths and that stuff is probably performed by neural networks in the brain. The rest of the work, dictionary lookups and heuristics to determine appropriateness of homonyms (i.e. the rest of what the brain does) probably isn't handled in the DSP but in the driver software. I guess now they may have even most of the last part on chip as well, although you would either have to make it language specific or have the process driven by an external language-specific PROM.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    3. Re:Brute force is how humans do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a point, but consider that each of those neurons can make different connections to learn/recognize new patterns on the fly. I think that IBM is on the forefront of this type of AI, trying to reproduce actual brain processes in electronics IIRC. If we take neural networks and apply them to different functions the brain performs, then ramp up the scale, maybe we could make a more general purpose AI. It'd still be rather stupid given what we don't know about the brain, computing limitations (I think people are still vastly underestimating the computing power of the brain...don't think about individual neurons, think about the number of connections between them), and the simple fact that after actually duplicating this, that much computing power would still have to be housed in a server farm with all the related support. How much does it take to pay an average human being for a lifetime?

    4. Re:Brute force is how humans do it by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Huh? In the ear, "thousands of "hair cells" are set in motion, and convert that motion to electrical signals that are communicated via neurotransmitters to many thousands of nerve cells" . Wouldn't you say the joint work of "thousands of nerve cells" is exactly what "brute force" is about?

      That's is the equivalent of a fourier-transformation (dividing sound into tones), not a brute-force search of words or syllables.

    5. Re:Brute force is how humans do it by wye43 · · Score: 1

      While the brain do has the count advantage (approx. 50 billion neurons in the cerebellum), please note the extremely slow speed of each of them.

      You already said it (a few hundred times per second) - I just wanted to underline it. We are actually not that far from that computing power.

      If we are to make a crude estimation 50 billion neurons with a processing speed of 200 Hz would mean 10 tera processing per second. Some may argue that they are analogous - thus able to handle infinite precision. I challenge that - there is no infinite precision - not even in the brain. So I consider a floating point operation a very equivalent way to compare.

      10 Teraflops is not that much, would not even qualify as a super computer these days. We already have 1 teraflops desktops. Soon, even a personal computer will have that power.

      Some examples:
      4 Teraflops workstation: http://digg.com/hardware/Supermicro_GPU_Workstation_Hits_4_Teraflops
      20 Petaflops Sequoia: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/feb/03/fastest-supercomputer-ibm-sequoia

      When approaching neural networks, I was never afraid of lack of computing power or storage. A much more demanding task was finding good and enough training data. Can you estimate the amount of "training data" that a human averagely receives through all his senses(sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell) during his entire life? Now THAT is some huge sob!

    6. Re:Brute force is how humans do it by jonadab · · Score: 1

      Trying to make strong AI in the image of a human is an extreme case of getting the cart before the horse, like if Henry Ford had tried to design a transdimensional intergalactic spacecraft instead of just a touring car. When AI researchers can create a computer system with greater overall intelligence than a mosquito (not just better in one small area like vision, but overall better across the board), then maybe they can start thinking about going for the intelligence level of smarter insects and possibly crustaceans...

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  68. The anti-spam space is rife with these by Arrogant-Bastard · · Score: 1
    There have been so many amazingly stupid approaches that it's difficult to know where to begin.

    But let's start with "Spam as a technical problem is solved by SPF", one of the most spectacularly blatant bits of hype ever published. The idiot responsible for this had, and has, no anti-spam credentials -- yet he managed to convince a large number of very stupid people that he had The Answer. Never mind that many people with superior credentials and superior minds said it wouldn't work: it was the panacea!

    Of course, spammers were the earliest and most prolific adopters of SPF, which has since -- finally -- been recognized as pure snake oil with no value whatsoever.

    Then we could turn our attention to Bayesian filtering, another technology hyped as The Answer. Never mind that it was obvious on inspection that spammers could defeat it at will -- and that they have, for years. There are STILL people out burning CPU cycles at ever-increasing rates, in a self-defeating exercise in futility, because they haven't realized yet that spammers can run the same algorithms against the same rulesets and pre-vet their spam. And many do.

    And then there's sender address verification (SAV), used only by selfish jerks who think it's okay to use others' resources and -- worse -- who think it's just fine to do their part to help spammers conduct DoS attacks. This method has of course been completely discredited for years, but the cargo cult out there will still cluelessly claim that it's a good idea.

    And then there are the vendors, selling hastily-thrown-together crap that puts perfectly good open source software on lousy hardware and pastes a web interface over it for the inferior people who can't use a command line, and therefore have absolutely no business attempting system administration. Is there any wonder that these systems are incredibly expensive, wildly inaccurate, poorly maintained, and quite often SOURCES of spam?

    Our problems are bad enough, thanks to spammers. But the people responsible for these have made them worse, and in the case of the vendors, they've done it for profit. I'm sure they'll try to cash in on the next problem too, even if they have to help make it worse.

    1. Re:The anti-spam space is rife with these by oatworm · · Score: 1

      These days, the point isn't to really "cure" spam - it's to minimize it as much as possible. I have a Bayesian filter in front of my e-mail server and it filters out roughly 95% of the e-mail that comes our way as "spam". Based on what my coworkers are reporting, about 5-10% of the remaining e-mail is still spam. On the other hand, without that filter, that 5-10% suddenly becomes 90+%, at which point e-mail becomes useless.

      Sometimes an incomplete solution is far better than no solution at all.

    2. Re:The anti-spam space is rife with these by emurphy42 · · Score: 1

      Then we could turn our attention to Bayesian filtering, another technology hyped as The Answer. Never mind that it was obvious on inspection that spammers could defeat it at will -- and that they have, for years. There are STILL people out burning CPU cycles at ever-increasing rates, in a self-defeating exercise in futility, because they haven't realized yet that spammers can run the same algorithms against the same rulesets and pre-vet their spam. And many do.

      The spammers can't pre-vet their spam against what is ham for me - only against their best estimate of a typical shlub - so it does some of us some good, at least, especially for work accounts where even the shlubs' ham tends to differ widely.

  69. Book Publishers by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Book publishers just love such fads. If not for fads, people just buy 5-year-old used books from Amazon and no new books are printed. I'm planning on soon releasing my book, "Enterprise Web 2.0 Agile Security with XML and Java.NET in Seven Days Super-Bible Unleashed for Complete Head-First Idiots & Dummies" .

    I don't know what's gonna be in it yet, but I know it will sell.
       

  70. Single-Sign On by Tweezer · · Score: 1

    I'm still waiting to see this in action. I know it's fairly easy to synch passwords between systems and even provide some parts of SSO, but I'm still waiting on the application that lets me long into Windows in the morning and never be presented with another login box for the rest of the day. I don't expect it to ever happen.

  71. to present is good by minstrelmike · · Score: 2, Funny

    My bosses are absolutely convinced that thin client technology instead of laptops will cut down on connection costs.
    Their 'reasoning' is too bizarre to get around so all I can do is document that adding more connections 'probably' will not cut down on the company's connection costs.

  72. What about "Open Source"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By all measures, open source has not met anything CLOSE to what the hype had us believing. There does not exist a single open source tool or product that owns majority market share against its closed source competitors. We are CONSTANTLY told that open source is a "better way" to produce software, but what evidence exists to back this claim? Linux sucks. The GIMP sucks. Firefox pales in comparison to Opera or even Safari.

  73. You're dead wrong about parent by rwade · · Score: 1

    The parent poster asserted that OS virtualization made apps portable. This is false.

    It may be true that OS virtualization does not itself make apps portable. However, the parent (VoidEngineer) does not assert what you suggest he does. Here's what he said:

    Virtualization is indispensable for QA testing. Being able to run a virtual network on a personal PC lets me design, debug, and do proof-of-concepts without requiring the investment in actual equipment. Virtualization isn't just about hardware consolidation: it's also about application portability. Small companies have just as much need for QA testing

    He is using virtualization to simulate platforms on which the software he is developing runs. By doing this, he makes the application portable by ensuring that it works on all platforms. His point is that virtualization makes un-necessary all the costly hardware that traditionally was required to perform platform-portability testing. For a small operation, virtualization in this regard is clearly an enabler of portability.

    Your app should work on all supported operating systems regardless of the underlying hardware anyway.

    The point is to make operating systems supported in the first place. That's what virtualization is helping the developer to ensure.

    1. Re:You're dead wrong about parent by VoidEngineer · · Score: 1

      Well, yes. There's that. You're absolutely correct about how virtualization can provide all that, and I do all of that kind of application portability testing with my day job.

      But in regards to my startup and portability, I was thinking of applications in the sense of web services running on LAMP virtual devices. I bounce my production virtual applications from machine to machine, hosting service to hosting service. I started off on a laptop, and have been through four hosting services so far, and haven't had to rebuild any of my website during the migrations.

      When I was talking about application portability, I was referring to the idea that an application or service need not be tied down to a particular piece of hardware. My web servers don't sit on any particular physical machine. Folks who aren't using virtualization tie down their critical applications to individual pieces of hardware. If a disk or chip goes bad, then so does the database and the webserver. If someone forgets to pay a hosting bill, 6 months of web design... gone. Ever build a website and have your hosting company go out of business on you? Or have a server room flooded that you were hosting from? I've had all of these things happen to me over the past 15 years.

      I've had it happen to me so many times that I eventually swore I'd never let it happen again. So, I converted all of my development and production systems to virtual machines. I won't work without them now days.

      With virtual machines, I'm not locked into a particular hosting provider. I have a working disaster recovery plan. I have portability of my production application stacks. I can be re-hosted on a new hosting provider inside of 4 hours if I get irked by my current host. By creating an abstraction layer between the application and the hardware, I'm able to shuffle my virtual machines around from host to host, and not be affected by hardware failures, business discontinuity, or network outages.

  74. Cloud Computing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd put cloud computing as today's king of overhype. "We're going to save a ton of money by moving the processing power from here... to there!" I get that it's "supposed" to be more efficient. But you still have to pay for the all the processing power you get, and whatever slight discount you might get from buying in bulk is probably going to be offset by the fact that you have to spend MORE on getting a completely separate input/output device capable of connecting to the cloud in the first place.
    "But, they'll be managed by professional I.T. guys instead of idiot end users!" Yeah, because giant server farms are never attacked, or compromised. Not to mention the fact that you now have to pay for the server guys managing it. Then comes the bandwidth costs. Just imagine how much bandwidth running simple OS procedures off the cloud would cost. That you'd have to have connections with incredibly low latency is already going to put the costs at astronomical and yet their are people really expecting they can run gaming of all things off the cloud. Assuming all the technical hurdles just disappeared you're really talking about running a constant, super low latency video stream at at least 30fps with an entirely separate input stream for hours on end. You're talking about running expensive, game worthy hardware (because one of the "highlights" of running off the cloud is everyone can have all the games with super fancy graphics), trying to get game developers and publishers to agree to an entirely new pricing structure (and yet somehow claiming that games will be cheaper for consumers, because price equilibrium doesn't exist!) and to top it all off people won't even get to own the games they buy!

  75. Thin Clients Rule! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thin clients have to be the best thing I've encountered in IT. I'm the infrastructure Manager for a small health care company that runs about 1200 employees with 3 help desk employees, 4 systems employees and a handful of developers. After going from Desktops at a yearly budget of about 5 million down to 1.5 after terminals

    Lets break this down a little bit, we have three failures according to the article; server I/O, bandwidth, and users giving up control. As one disclaimer I don't believe thin client tech would have worked until 2006/2007, things weren't their just yet.

    Server I/O
    We run almost nothing outside of VM. My real servers include 4 Cisco VOIP servers and 3 infrastructure server that support things like the ESX VM farm. Everything thing else is a VM. Everything from the SQL boxes, exchange, some linux boxes and all of the Citrix servers. Yes that's right, Citrix works GREAT in a VM. If you have the proper gear it works great. Costs are high but nothing compared to standard servers and full desktops. The gear this runs on is really cool. Giant EMC SANS, 8 way servers with 64GB of RAM. It's a fun environment for an IT type.

    Bandwidth
    It's not a problem today. I run 14 offices over MPLS 1.5MBPS T1s which range in size from 10 staff to 70. The only thing that runs of the WAN is Citrix and VOIP, everything else is restricted. Even in the largest offices with 70 employees we barley see usage of 40% on the T1s at peak times.

    Users giving up control.
    This actually sucks, but we were allowed to hide under HIPPA and health care staff will put-up with a lot of BS in the name of HIPPA.

    That's about all I have to say on that.

  76. SAP? by slycer · · Score: 1

    A colleague and I were talking about this the other day. Both he and I are of the opinion that SAP does nowhere near what it should. This was supposed to replace HR departments, accounting departments, internal databases etc etc.

    Instead it seems to attract contractors/support staff, more than any other product I have ever seen, while not really making anything simpler.

  77. CASE, 'CASE', methods and 'methodologies' by l2b · · Score: 0

    Regarding CASE, there were/are a lot of tools mis-labeled as CASE tools.

    In order for a CASE tool to deliver, there has to be a sound method behind it. You can tell a poor excuse for one because the marketing hype uses the term "methodology" instead of "method".

    The number of people who truly understand software development methods, their history and their benefits and limitations is probably in the hundreds, worldwide. (Hint - they do not include Rumbaugh, Jacobsen and Booch.)

    The goal of real CASE and the methods behind it, was to develop zero defect software. This was equivalent to attaining the highest level of SEI CMM, as imperfect as that 'standard' is/was.

    What 'killed' CASE use is the money behind UML and Rational and... the tonnes of money to be made from consulting on defective software products. And... a lot of people, who had no idea what methods are, ran around messing up projects left and right saying they were using CASE and 'methodologies'.

    Call it the perfect automobile syndrome - the product rarely breaks down and seldom needs replacement. What manufacturer would dare to produce a product that would not require replacement or parts?

    So, during the 'CASE' golden era there were a lot of ignorant people touting 'CASE' and now there are some people writing articles about 'CASE'.

    Neither type has a clue.

  78. Ada-83 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boy, was that a dog.

  79. Computer power is still part of the problem by jwhitener · · Score: 1

    I think some of Moravec's charts seem a bit off. The last I heard, the brain was estimated to do 10^16th calculations per second, in parallel. And as brain scanning technology gets more refined, people are finding more and more subtle layers of calculation. (From varying analog to even possible quantum effects).

    Is there a super computer that can do 10^16 in parallel? Last I looked, weren't most of them just cresting a petaflop at 10^15? It will probably be another decade or two before brain level computing power is commonplace and in the hands of most AI researchers.

    And in addition, in order to simulate a brain, a lot of people think you might need to deal with things on an analog level, or at least vary the strength of neurons firing. So in addition to the total firings occuring at once, you'd need additional calculations to determine what strength each one should fire at, etc.. Probably orders of magnitude beyond 10^16th.

    But that is just if you wanted to completely simulate a brain from models. It might be more efficient to work on learning algorithms and just keep it digital and let something 'grow up' inside the computer without attempting to model biology.

  80. CASE then = Scaffolding now by Phantasmagoria · · Score: 1

    CASE was all about "Model Driven Development", and I'd say the "Scaffolding" provided by modern Application Toolkits (both web and desktop) is just that.

    I write down a schema and BANG, I have all the code to maintain, modify, manipulate, and persist (through a database) that model. I can change the schema and BANG, the code gets regenerated. Some modern toolkits (e.g. Doctrine) even support writing migration classes to ease schema changes.

    Many web application toolkits (e.g. Symfony) even auto-generate form classes, filter classes, a REST api, as well as basic templates to show, edit, create, and delete these models - making prototyping AND RAD super fast and easy.

    If my interpretation of CASE is correct, it is very much a success today.

    --
    Loban Amaan Rahman ==> Anagram of ==> Aha! An Abnormal Man!
    1. Re:CASE then = Scaffolding now by Phantasmagoria · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hell, almost all the cases should be considered successes now. The problem was that they were all massively over hyped back in the day.

      Our massive move to web-applications and the newly-but-stupidly-coined "Cloud" is as much a thin client solution as it was back then.

      To many, Google can be considered an AI. After all, it helps answers your questions. With more and more NLP being built into it (and other web applications), it its getting closer to directly answering your questions.

      So what if ERP always went over budget and was deployed only half the time? That is still a HUGE amount. Do you know of any large companies that DONT use some form of ERP?

      --
      Loban Amaan Rahman ==> Anagram of ==> Aha! An Abnormal Man!
    2. Re:CASE then = Scaffolding now by Phantasmagoria · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Another modern and heavily used AI: vehicle control systems (especially fighter jets and race cars).

      --
      Loban Amaan Rahman ==> Anagram of ==> Aha! An Abnormal Man!
  81. virtualization? WHAT hype? by alizard · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I've been running it on my Linux desktop for years... with first, a Windows 98SE guest in Win4Lin, now WinXP and Win7 guests in Sun Virtualbox. The only reason why I don't have an OSX guest is that Apple won't sell one to me that'll run without hacking. This tech works exactly as advertised for me. I can run Linux and Windows apps against my datapool easily without having to keep two or more machines running to do this.

    YMMV, especially if you're using something other than Virtualbox.

  82. Not exactly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From wikipedia: "In computer science, brute-force search or exhaustive search, also known as generate and test, is a trivial but very general problem-solving technique that consists of systematically enumerating all possible candidates for the solution and checking whether each candidate satisfies the problem's statement."

    A brute-force search is a serial process that tries a set of things one-by-one. Your brain generally processes information in a massively parallel manner, and makes decisions without trying every possibility. (For example, you don't hear a sound and then compare it to every other sound you've ever heard.)

  83. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  84. For quite a few decades. by jcr · · Score: 1

    Virtualization has been highly useful ever since IBM first shipped it on the System/360.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  85. Tablet PCs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tablet PCs are so last year. I assume you mean "netbooks." Duh.

  86. That's a far too micro view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure that our habit of redefining intelligence (computationally) is an argument that we will never surpass human ability (computationally).

    In the unknown future, when the sum total of human faculties are expressed as algorithms, and there is no residual uniquely human talent, and we are surpassed in every mental endeavour by better hardware and software, your argument will simply illustrate that we were never 'intelligent' in the first place.

    You don't find any pause in the fact that 'auto'-motive power was comprehensively dismissed as infeasible in the days of the horse-drawn carriage, or that space flight was an impossibility until it happened?

    -- Joe Fazzari (Anonymous Coward without a slashdot account)

  87. Ruby on Rails by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    discuss.

  88. The Magic of AI by Lord+of+Kaos · · Score: 1

    Some technological wonder working in a way the observer doesn't understand may be perceived as 'magic'.

    I think the same holds true for AI.

    For problem fields seeming easy for humans, but hard for machines, the solution must be AI.

    If a solution is found, the solution suddenly consists of procedures, if's, else's, and that dispells the magic.

    So, in a way, AI may never exist.

  89. Missed a couple... by mdm42 · · Score: 1
    UML. UML was going to eliminate the Software Backlog, cure Cancer and Solve World Hunger...

    XML. Need I say more?

    --
    New mod option wanted: -1 DrunkenRambling
  90. Tablet PCs definitely by jandersen · · Score: 1

    I can see the potential in cloud computing, although it isn't as huge as some would have us believe, and virtualisation is very useful technology for many purposes - I can see that going a long way, though it has many limitations too. But the tablet PC? I honestly can't see what I would use one for; it seems to combine the worst features of a notebook PC - general clunkiness, short battery life, easily breakable - with the disadvantages of pen and paper. Both are very valuable technologies on their own, but combining them is a bit like combining a pneumatic hammer with a nose-hair trimmer. It's not going to give you the best of both worlds, I suspect.

  91. Why rabbit may never catch turtle by dee.cz · · Score: 1

    Rabbit advances closer to the turtle but he is still not at the same position. Then he advances smaller bit, but he is still not there.
    And this is why AI may never exist... oh really?

    Of course there will be strong AI and there will be people refusing to acknowledge they lost top position in evolution of intelligence. When machines start treating us like we treat less intelligent animals, I'm sure some people will loudly complain.

  92. Programming the Routine by benb · · Score: 1

    As soon as something becomes routinely doable by a computer, it is no longer considered a sign of intelligence; it's a mere mechanical activity.

    Correct. I have observed this thought in myself. I also wondered whether I deceive myself. But this is something else than AI: AI aspires to create "intelligent" machines, which can:
    learn, understand, and reason.

    Without having been programmed specifically. To follow a certain programmed algorithm, which is simply processed and executed, doesn't count as AI for me. That is then indeed purely mechanical. Input -> specific, given process -> Output.

    What we see is that we can program ever more jobs as such a mechanical algorithm, through advances in hardware and software as you describe. Our toolbox increases, gets more powerful, therefore we can build more powerful, more useful machines. We can take a data source like the ID3 tags of songs played in Amarok, and compare that with those from other users, and find matches and differences, and based on that make proposals. 20 years ago, we'd have said that needs a true music lover or an inspired music shop owner, but now we can program it with our bigger toolbox. We can even generalize it to arbitrary data sources (RDF, OWL). Nevertheless, it's still a mechanical process that a human has analyzed, abstracted, broken down, and expressed as mechanical steps using the toolbox. It's the human who thought it out, and the computer just follows a given work pattern.

    This is very useful and on a very high level, but it's per se not KI for me, because the computer has neither learned nor understood nor reasoned. Throw corn in from the top, run through mill, get flour out at the bottom. "Routinely" and "mechanical" are the key words in your comment. Sorting letters into a file folder cabinet is a routine that requires no intelligence, even if a human executes it. Inventing sorting was intelligent. But it only needs to be done once. That's what computers are good for, IMHO: Routine. We are striving to let them do ever more, higher-level routine jobs.

    1. Re:Programming the Routine by MR+LOLALOT · · Score: 1

      That elaborate post you made was something coded in your DNA and the proteins and neurons merely porcessed it.

  93. Just a simple misunderstanding... by SharpFang · · Score: 1

    It's typical mismatch between the promises and the expectations...

    Vendor: This computer will reduce your workload by half.
    Customer: Great! I'll take two!

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  94. B2B electronic transactions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, why would any company go for automated computing wheeling and dealing for the best price? If you do that where are the kickbacks, special trips and perks from the vendors? Everyone talks about wanting to cut out that sort of thing, but it never gets around to being fixed...