Slashdot Mirror
New Dating Sites Match People Through DNA Tests
The Installer writes with this excerpt from an Associated Press report:
"A couple of genetic testing companies are promising to match couples based on DNA testing, touting the benefits of biological compatibility. The companies claim that a better biological match will mean better sex, less cheating, longer-lasting love and perhaps even healthier children. 'How many dating services can you think of where they can suggest you might have better children?' said Eric Holzle, founder of ScientificMatch.com, one of the first online dating sites to use DNA. ... The idea is that people tend to be attracted to those who have immune system genes that are dissimilar from their own. Biologists say the HLA genes of the immune system — which are responsible for recognizing and marking foreign cells such as viruses so other parts of the immune system can attack them — also determine body odor 'fingerprints.' And people tend to be attracted to the natural body odors of those who have different HLA genes from their own."
"Incest Is Best Inc"
Nice genes...
Yeah... Submit your DNA profile to a for-profit corporation that lets you do things with it through a web interface. Your info will never be hacked. Your info will never be sold. Your info will never be given to government agencies. Trust us.
What could possibly go wrong here?
It's bad enough that I'm legally blind but now I can add it to the list of attributes that might reduce my chances of procreating (as if analyst and programmer weren't bad enough).
Enjoy your gene pool, jerkwads!
crazy dynamite monkey
Sounds like a way to 'improve' the genetic makeup of the children. The nazis would have loved the idea
DNA EXCHANGED!
That reminds me, I need to buy a keyboard vacuum..
it's only $1,995 for a lifetime membership! they take credit cards!
'The companies claim that a better biological match will mean better sex, less cheating, longer-lasting love and perhaps even healthier children.'
They're lying.
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
I see a HUGE hole in this plan... So we can take DNA and build an incomplete profile of it. They want to use these limited profiles to match people for dating.
But what metric are they going to use to match people?
If they plan to match similar DNA then I question that since studies have shown that we're attracted to people with different immune systems.
If they plan to match people with very different DNA then I question that because there might be a huge culture clash.
If they plan to match people with very similar but slightly different DNA then how is that better than hobbies and or interests?
where do i send my load so i can become part of this dna dating website. usually i just send it onto the ceiling, but now i hope i can send it somewhere useful.
That's like saying that your best match is someone who drinks the same brand of beer that you do.
People are best matched with other people that they can get along with and talk to, we all know this. Just because the DNA profile is similar doesn't mean that they will enjoy the same things. It's life experiences and how we respond and come through them that make us what we are.
They would be better off saying that they will match you with people who have a similar upraising. Even that raises flags though. Matching two people based on addictive or abused pasts would usually not be good for their children.
Face it, we are far better off just finding our own mates and leaving the corporations out of it.
Some people are only alive because it's against the law for me to hunt them down and kill them.
Gattaca?
...so you marry your long lost sister...
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
I don't think I would ever want to date anyone who even remotely resembles me.
Watch those match algorithms. This could prove to be a rather disturbing way to meet your long lost sibling. OTOH it could make a Great Jerry Springer / Dr Phil episode.
Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
That is, they are trying to create "Hybrid Vigor" - matching people whose DNA matches the LEAST. Among other things this should reduce recessive traits. No more blond haired/blue eyed children, but also no more hemophilia.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
I would like to see the result of this study:
-Take the DNA of all freshmen
-Let the males and females smell each other one by one (in rooms so dark that beauty could be eliminated) and have them rate each other.
-Let the males and females see and rate each others looks (like a criminal lineup)
Now throw all that into a computer to find correlation between DNA / smell / looks.
Now you can build the database to match couples based on DNA. A lot of interesting research could come out ot it too. Exactly which genes likes which genes, and which detest each other. Are there some universally unlikable genes, and what do they code? Are there some universally likable genes, and what do they code?
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
PTBarnum.com
Table-ized A.I.
My anti-social personality and my not desiring long walks on the beach can find me a mate!
Seriously, I have trouble dating and I've thought about using one of these services, but there is more to a person than their DNA. Plus, we can see much of people's dna from "interviewing" them and their family.
This is why the HTML 6 specification will include an olfactory tag, so that biologically compatible people can agree or disagree on the basis of body odor, rather than the meaning of their words. The W3C is also considering the inclusion of an IQ tag, to further facilitate meaningful communication. It is hoped that an advanced markup system will improve the basic functionality of the internet, while also mitigating many of the problems associated with the wrong people getting together online, for understandable but regrettable reasons. The W3C considers the biggest preventable threat to tomorrow's information exchange to be the population of children born as a result of those unfortunate online hookups.
And people tend to be attracted to the natural body odors
I think slashdotters would have this market cornered.
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
I didn't RTFA, because I can proudly say that I was involved in the group that produced MHC mediated sexual selection studies that ScientificMatch.com uses to claim their rationale. A few comments: First, if Scientific match has any wits about them, they'll also consider other information. I don't think anyone's stupid enough to think there's a single correlate to mate selection. But the worry about people who are too different is poorly founded - MHC diversity is strongly retained throughout most human lineages. We've had negative frequency dependant since we were swimming in the ocean, and as a result, if you sequenced any given allele, you'd find that it's just as related to Gorilla sequence as it is another randomly chosen allele. My ex-boss used to have students do this as an exercise to illustrate the point. Because of this, you're just as likely to find someone very MHC (or in humans, HLA) dissimilar next door in these modern, mobile times, than you are in, say, in a distant country.
;)
;)
Second: They're only (to my knowledge) matching at MHC for disassortative matings, not the rest of the Genome. How is this better than picking someone based on hobbies? Because research actually shows that mating patterns in humans follows this pattern. It is a bit of a crock, since the odds of you picking two people at random with similar MHC complements is low, but let's not get into that.
Finally, let me just say, I'm proud that so much scientific blood, sweat and tears into understanding the maintenance of the immune system, and what drives host-parasite co-evolution, has been distilled into an online dating site. Forget having worked with a Nobel laureate, this the highest honour a scientist can know.
Will health insurance use this to get a nice pre-existing conditions list and black list you?
Oops, did I just admit to using dating services?
...so you marry your long lost sister...
Even weirder, assuming my wife is "the one" for me, this genetic method would imply my ideal "second choice" would be my sister in law (whom is single...) and my ideal "third choice" would be my mother in law (whom is single...)
Somehow, I think the legendary persistence of in-law and mother-in-law jokes would disprove the whole theory.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Healthier children is the only thing that could be possible improved there for me. The rest look more related to culture (education, environment, etc) things than to genetic ones. And they put it in the last place, even doubting that it could happen.
Of course, if both deeply believe what they said (won't be so different from any "predicted" match coming from tea leaves, astrology, dices, numerology and reading hand lines) there are a chance that it will happens, and that is cultural too.
So I have to deal with a woman who is genetically predisposed to act like me? No thanks, I couldn't deal with a lifetime of myself.
Blue bloods have been doing it for centuries.
We all agree, nobody would want to date anyone who even remotely resembles you.
Luckily, on slashdot, you are not alone. Welcome brother/sister.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
1'52 tall Mongolian bride.
The idea is that people tend to be attracted to those who have immune system genes that are dissimilar from their own.
... the 98 lb weakling with chronic asthma, coke-bottle glasses and a physique suited to the chess club is attracted to the 6 foot tall blonde Swedish ski champion goddess.
Slashdotters worldwide rejoice.
Have gnu, will travel.
In similar news, I'm starting a match making service based upon environmental chemical exposures.
Hey, exposure to ethyl alcohol is strongly correlated to time of conception for a majority of slashdotters.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
And look where it got *them.* How's Egypt doing these days? Or the Tsars?
Will health insurance use this to get a nice pre-existing conditions list and black list you?
They might deny coverage based on your likely future spouses medical conditions, even if you're currently single, on the theory that you and your theoretical ideal spouse might be a perfect match but unfortunately the theoretical ideal offspring might be x% more susceptible to some expensive illness, thus denied coverage.
Or, they might just do business as usual, and collect high premiums because of the "high risk", and abandon you when a claim is made.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
I'm the inbred, last member of the house of Habsburg, you insensitive clod!
After matching 100's of thousands they then have a nice database of DNA and names to sell to other companies. Want insurance? Sorry, your genetic profile shows a disposition towards cancer. Want a job? Sorry, your genetic profile shows a disposition towards violent behavior. Don't feel bad. You got a nice date didn't you? What? She got you drunk and stole your wallet? Tough break kiddo.
- A Frog in a pond utters an azure cry. -
And here I thought Smurfs were only a cartoon.
The idea is that people tend to be attracted to those who have immune system genes that are dissimilar from their own.
In the long run, if the kids HLA genes were an average of the parents, wouldn't this doom their business plan, along with the human race, once everyone had the same HLA genes?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
Finally a service that allows me to only meet pure white Aryans like myself and exercise my racist ignorant views under the guise of science.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I can't imagine that women would be attracted to this service. Add the 1,995.95 fee to that and the pool of users is going to be horribly selected for very rational white males.
my wife has an identical twin....
the behavior between the two girls is so radically different, my wife being more mellow and down to earth, while the sister is rambunctious, difficult, has a drug problem and always seems depressed. i cant imagine trying to maintain a serious relationship with the other girl.
i think for the most part this match making on genetics stops at good sex and strong initial attraction. the mentality for a stronger long running relationship is several layers of complexity deeper.
not that dna cares. dna just needs to get its job done. just reproduce, thats all that matters. where we go from there isnt even in the equation.
Lebensborn, Nazi Germany, 1935. (Non-Aryans need not apply.)
KALLIKAK, Gattaca, Saturday — Genetic testing companies are promising to match couples based on Escherichia coli testing, touting the benefits of biological compatibility and claiming a match means better personality match, better sex and conclusive proof that they match right down to the asshole.
"How many dating services can you think of where assholes can meet an asshole they really deserve?" said Eric Holzle, founder of AssholePersonalityDisorderMatch.com.
People tend to be attracted to those whose personalities are appropriately complementary to their own. APDMatch claims to be able to ascertain this by scientifically measuring the characteristics of a prospective couple's digestive tracts.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) inexplicably fails to detail Asshole Personality Disorder. However, a diagnosis of APD requires five or more of the following to be present for a significant period of time:
"If we can make sure that assholes end up with other assholes," said Dr Holzle, "we can save the rest of us from dealing with their ridiculous bullshit."
But don't put too much faith in this, experts said. Dr. Rocio Moran, medical director of the General Genetics Clinic at the Cleveland Clinic, called the idea "ridiculous," and said the science of assholism is too complex to work out by looking at a few bacterial traces.
"They are just trying to make a buck," she said. "Focusing on getting those bucks from assholes is, of course, commendable. But assholism is subtle and endemic. How many times have you heard some asshole proclaim, 'hah, that really sticks it to those assholes!'?"
Holzle was not able to point to any success stories. "Quite frankly, the site tends to attract assholes. And do you think we ever want to talk to these people again? We have to swab these assholes' goddamn assholes. What a pile of shit this job is. What the hell was I thinking? Apparently some have bred. This will probably doom the human gene pool. I'm so very, very sorry."
http://rocknerd.co.uk
I could swear this was in Wired once... As a joke.
After some searching through my collection: In the August 09 issue, in the 'Predict What's Next' section at the back, they had a thing about "Online Dating in the Future".
The above was basically just that O_o
I know others pointed this out already, but heck, real life is starting to look like Gattaca every day more and more, until we're all fucked.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
It has worked out so far for evolution, hasn't it?
The science on this is still fairly recent, and as such, the claim that there is strong data linking these gene pairings with the longevity of a relationship, and even more doubtful, the lower probability of mates cheating on eachother, seems spurious to say the least. There are so many other factors at play here, a single corner of the genetic code can't justifiably be held responsible for the success of a relationship. At least not without comprehensive several decade studies, and even then, it's still one abstraction among many abstractions (which, for the most part, we are still in the dark about the true function and nature of).
More troubling, though, is the abandonment of instinct in the dating world. When did we become so divorced and mistrusting of our senses and reason that we have come to rely on machines to screen possible mates, especially for a genetic trait that we can discover ourselves with our olfactory sense that we're equipped with from birth. And the argument that you're dating blind online doesn't work, because these traits aren't only going to be used online to determine the fitness of a prospective partner. Many companies want to build handheld scanners that test for these immune system flags. A negative match might mean that someone's faith in you as a partner is heavily diminished, despite your being compatible with them in a host of other ways.
junk science; throw it out. trust your instincts and rapport with someone. a good immune system gene pairing does not a good relationship make
Are we sure they're not just corralling a bunch of stiffs at the bus station and pocketing our money?
Ultimate movie to see about this subject GATTACA (1997) music - Michael Nyman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9fcHHOCBDg
...to know that when it comes to dating I come up an in-valid.
but I prefer to give my DNA during the date.
Look out, here comes the Master Race!
Seriously (and with apologies to Mel Brooks for quoting his masterpiece), this is an incredible pile of pseudoscientific horse shit. It reminds me of a guy I knew in high school who copied plans from a book for a UFO detector. He built the device, and was proud that it could detect UFOs *invisible to the naked eye*!
I've been researching eugenic theories from the 1930s for a story I'm writing, a process that is all to easy because those opinions are alive and well today, and the papers of quacks like Dr. Robert Bennet Bean are still being quoted on sites like stormfront today. In fact the University of Virginia still proudly awards a prize in the name of this "researcher", who apparently didn't understand the concept of statistical significance, and could a negative finding into a positive one with a stroke of his twisted genius (the reason there was no physiological difference between the negro and white subjects in one study was that the cadavers were from the *best* negroes and the the *worst* whites -- thus converting Bean's negative finding in the data into a confirmation of his racial theories).
Eugenicists aren't just ignorant of basic statistical concepts like significance and regression to the mean, they apparently don't understand what sex is for.
Why do we as organisms bother with sex, instead of something simpler like mitosis or parthenogenesis? It's to create greater genetic diversity. This does no good for the individual. If you have a remarkably successful parent, you'd be better off being a clone, but evolution doesn't care about individuals. The *species* is better off if parents generate a range of offspring types, drawing from their generally successful genes and combining them in unpredictable ways. Furthermore, human beings, even the most inbred aristocratic families, are wild animals. We aren't like dogs that have been bred for literally hundreds of generations; genetically speaking we're mongrels.
The upshot is you can't look at a single gene and make the kind of predictions these companies are pretending to make. Even if you had data that showed a mutation in one of a pair identical twins lead to a certain behavior, you couldn't conclude the same effect would occur in fraternal twins, unless you were talking about some kind of serious genetic anomaly. That's not even counting environmental behaviors on the development of phenotype, such as culture. Once the Danes got in longboats and went raping and pillaging. Now they are second in the world in percent of GDP spent on foreign aid.
The idea you can predict the quality of sexual pleasure by matching genes is laughable. For one thing, for a guy sex is like pizza -- it's almost impossible to get it wrong. For a gal, guaranteed her gut feelings about the guy's behavior are going to be a better predictor of sexual pleasure than any genetic marker, because those feelings are so intimately tied to that pleasure.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
your office is calling.
Oh how do I love thee? Let me spell the ways: GATTACA
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This just proves how low one can go in knowing jack about dating. ;)
DNA tests? Yeah, because we want to stay 20+ years with a person, have sex and love each other, because of a great DNA match!
Toootally realistic!
I think the best way to know if a dating site is good, is by finding out the dating skills of those who created it!
On second thought. Why slow yourself down by using a dating site? Just read a bit about how dating actually works (There is no shame in knowing the theory. It can only make things better.), then go out and talk to girls! Gives you much more than any site could.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
One more group of women who won't have sex with me.
I'm very attracted to the natural body odors of many females and I'm sure that they have different HLA stuffs than me (whatever that is).
Glad to know all those movies with Warp Drive and Hyperspace Wars and shrinking people and such belong in the Fantasy section of the bookstore now...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Yeah, people who approve of eugenics tend to talk about designer babies; you'll see echoes of it in Heinlein and other early science fiction novels. But back when there was an active Eugenics movement, it was mostly about keeping the genetically undesirable from reproducing.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
and since they were in the US, they were also firearms enthusiasts. I'd advise against recommending killing Down's Syndrome babies around them; they might have other opinions about how to improve the gene pool...
Also, most people with Down's Syndrome babies have them when the mother is older, and they're much better able to take care of them than people who had their kids at 20. If your concern is about the gene pool rather than the individual kids, remember that they're less likely to have kids of their own.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
was not that this flag doesn't play a part, but that it's being treated by many as a tell all, which I think is hardly supported. Although I do admit that there is strong evidence to support it's involvement in mate selection, the further claims I think are overboard. And, when people assume these further claims, I object to the technology for screening for the flag being used as a sort of relationship crystal ball.
I have to admit that some of the findings are compelling. Complexity abounds in human behavior and genetics, though, and the idea that this marker tells all seems bizarre and quasi religious.
Ok, well I'm a white guy, and I like Asian (Japanese, and some (South) Korean) women. I find them far more attractive than the majority of American women.
So does that mean that this service wouldn't work well for me?
... the science may progress, but the sociology remains cyclical.
You sound like a winner.
captcha: baller
I will start caring as soon as the DNA test results are factored into my OKcupid match score.
OOOH, OOOH, Great Idea!! We can have in-bred mutant babies much easier now!
Dating wasn't hard enough.
Woman: "I love that fact that you're successful in your career..."
Man: "I hate the fact that your grandfather had green eyes..."
Woman: "Well played sir..."
Man: "Check please..."
Then the abomination that is this date goes home to compare notes on blood sample preservation methods.
The best part was the wine...
Okay, here's what they're missing. This is the golden rule of dating sites. It doesn't matter if you're physically attracted to a person like crazy if they're a complete bitch or asshole. It really does boil down to that. They can be good looking and a superior genetic match and healthier and blah blah blah but if you can't stand the person or their personality or they're just an awful person, I bet it won't work out real well!
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
Nice amino acids, wanna fuck?
or you could clone yourself and date it btw, since when is it good to have many genes in common, I thought it rather ruins evolution
The football team captain will get the girls.
This was "demonstrated" on a japanese tv show: they had one of the animators of the show and a stunt actor running for 10min to make them sweat and thus emit more pheromones, before putting them in separate boxes with a hole at chest level and had them removing their shirts. Then, six girls were asked to smell them and designate which was the most sexy (without knowing who was in which box). All six of them chose the stunt actor. Apparently, girls are attracted to "bad guys", because they would have more manly pheromones.
(Note: I am neither a biologist nor a native japanese speaker so I might have missed something...)
The company is a bit late to the market, also wrong country. They would have been hugely profitable in the late 1930's Germany, helping to refine the pure-blooded nordic population.
This is nothing new. In some ultra-orthodox Jewish circles, organisations exist that will take a blood sample and tell you if you're a carrier of some hereditary disease such as Tay Sachs that could produce a child with the illness if you were to have a child with a another carrier. In the case of Tay Sachs, this is really critical as most newborns don't survive beyond the first few weeks and this causes incredible emotional stress for the parents. When a potential match is suggested, a check is made with the organisation to check if you're genetically compatible from a hereditary disease perspective. If you're not compatible, you never meet and therefore avoid and heartache later on. While DNA compatibility isn't necessarily full proof (the company in the article seem to be completely ignoring phenotype - i.e. how your DNA actually expresses itself when you're born, e.g. a DNA test may show you to have the ginger hair gene, but it may be recessive and never show itself), it could help people who subscribe to the service avoid the same issues. There's still a lot to be said for actually meeting the person and seeing a) if you get along with them and b) if there's an attraction.
Cemetery.
So eugenics is the new cool thing again?
The fad of blood type matching in Japan seems odd to me. But it sounds like a precursor of genetic matching.
READ THE ARTICLE.
I would like to read the disclaimer you have to sign to become a client. Something like "Any relationship between us and people that know what they are doing, is purely coincidental".
Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
READ THE ARTICLE.
Oh, but I did...and I also have no problem understanding the implications of the prominent use of the word "dissimilar".
For instance, I could have said that I could replace the dating site's methodology - for myself, at least - by considering my own ancestry (an American whose ancestors have lived in this country for a quarter of a millennium) and shopping the "Mail Order Bride" rags and sites for someone who was not of English descent.
But I didn't, obviously. Equally obviously, I wasn't trying to be "interesting" or "insightful"; I was simply trying to be a smartass.
But, now that I think of it...what a wonderful way to add a veneer of science to the chancy game of "Mail Order Brides": Claim some genetic positive for rolling the dice on a sight-unseen relationship.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
Absolutely. The ones arranging the marriages are the ones who voluntarily signed up for this, voluntarily paid their 2 grand, met and liked each other, ideally dated for a while (though this is their choice), and arranged a marriage with each other. I don't think I've ever attended a marriage that wasn't arranged. I wouldn't know where to show up, for starters. Heck, at least both people being married need to arrange to meet somewhere that a JP would be available and get a license beforehand.
Oh, wait, you mean the generally-accepted definition of an "arranged marriage" where people other than the couple decide which person they are to marry? Like the parents, or their cult leader? Sometimes backing up the decision with the threat of disownment or excommunication, or worse?
In that case, umm, no. This isn't an arranged marriage. This is an arranged FIRST DATE where both people ASKED for the date to be arranged.
This is another snippet of data (of severely dubious value, but then a lot of them are) in dating services.
The arrangement of the first date may LEAD to marriage, in fact for some clients marriage is the desired eventual outcome.
The rest are, of course, men.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
Send that twin over here, and make sure she has extra dope, I'm sick of fooling around with my cousin (actually, no, but I know she does it out of pity, and isn't having any fun, and I just don't want to pain her. She deserves better. ) And yes, I'm serious.
I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
I personally would like to marry someone who shared my HLA markers (assuming they're not my sibling) so they could donate their kidney to me someday if the need arose.
Does God treat us as servants or friends? Check my homepage.
That being the case would have made this a much more interesting article and ensuing discussion.
The mail-order bride scheme, that is.
Maybe you should get on that. No, seriously, that could be awesome.
Nah. I think somebody named Susanoo no Mikoto beat me to it.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
True enough. DNA in this analysis could be interpreted less as fate and more as natal astrology. So long as the stars and the amino acid sequences don't dictate fate or lull folks into a false sense of security. Perhaps for a real good time there might be daredevils who only date those most incompatible...sort of a Taming of the Shrew, when Harry Met Sally, or The Bride of Frankenstein kinda lighting love. What's my sign meets e-harmony, meets prenuptial, paternity, and std testing, all rolled up in Yentl. I guess if we pay for the service, but not for the escort, its all legitimate and potential romance. "People people who need people....."
Frankly, it's an $2000 upgrade to checking the little ticky-boxes or whatever where you state your preferences.
Note the important phrases: "upgrade" and "$2000".
But then again people have been charging for decades now to wave colored crystals over other people in the belief that it somehow aligns their chia pets or something.
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."