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Bomb-Proof Wallpaper Developed

MikeChino writes "Working in partnership with the US Army Corp of Engineers, Berry Plastics has rolled out a new breed of bomb-proof wallpaper. Dubbed the X-Flex Blast Protection System, the wallpaper is so effective that a single layer can keep a wrecking ball from smashing through a brick wall, and a double layer can stop blunt objects (i.e. a flying 2×4) from knocking down drywall. According to its designers, covering an entire room takes less than an hour."

388 comments

  1. That's cool! by TheWizardTim · · Score: 5, Funny

    But will it blend?

    1. Re:That's cool! by davester666 · · Score: 1

      So, a little bit of carpentry and I can make my self a bomb-proof vest/suit!

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    2. Re:That's cool! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think a lot of people are overlooking an obvious question - what about legitimate demolition of buildings with this material? If the owners had put a layer or two on, it seems like it's gonna be pretty hard to take down a building; and if you can destroy the load bearing structures and it collapses, it seems like this could make clean up extremely difficult

    3. Re:That's cool! by plover · · Score: 1

      I think a lot of people are overlooking an obvious question - what about legitimate demolition of buildings with this material? If the owners had put a layer or two on, it seems like it's gonna be pretty hard to take down a building; and if you can destroy the load bearing structures and it collapses, it seems like this could make clean up extremely difficult

      Because this demonstration was done using a metal ball about the side of a bowling ball, not an actual wrecking ball. A typical wrecking ball used by demolition workers weighs in at over a ton, and would have smashed their entire test rig, not just their block walls.

      --
      John
    4. Re:That's cool! by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

      Well -- I would guess that they would have to go in and remove the wallpaper beforehand. I am sure the stuff is valuable enough to make it worth the effort.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    5. Re:That's cool! by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Well you take the wall paper down before you begin demolition. Very rairly do they just go and knock down a house without making sure it will go down easy and safely. Things like Disconnecting electricity, Fuel lines, turn off the plumbing.... Remove any thing that could be harmful to people or equipment. So I figure they will just take down the wallpaper.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:That's cool! by larpon · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm changing my dekstop wallpaper to this immediately!

    7. Re:That's cool! by daremonai · · Score: 1

      Though that outer layer of brick will add a little weight.

    8. Re:That's cool! by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      If they want to declare something bomb-proof (or -resistant), shouldn't they test it with, hmm, let's see, maybe an actual explosion? The undersized wrecking ball they used is going to deliver its impact to one location on the wall, rather than the entire wall, as a bomb blast would.

      I'm not saying that this isn't interesting, just misleading.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    9. Re:That's cool! by von_rick · · Score: 1

      You won't even need to remove the wallpaper. Just make a couple of slashes with a blade and it will tear up in a jiffy when impacted.

      --

      Face your daemons!

  2. Idle? by incognito84 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why is this considered idle? It seems like very promising and useful technology.

    1. Re:Idle? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seems like this would be a best seller in tornado alley.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    2. Re:Idle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I agree, its very promising. Imagine using this for homes in Tornado Alley ... it may save many lives!

      PS - a hint to keep America working and in the forefront: do NOT outsource manufacturing of this outside the US!!!

    3. Re:Idle? by MrMista_B · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because the editors are trying to scam you into thinking Idle isn't the craphole it really is.

    4. Re:Idle? by Garridan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Probably because it was a nearly content-free "article" that had a short video clip of some shit getting smashed. Not complaining. It's a huge improvement for "idle"... but there it is.

      However, I seriously doubt that this material would actually protect a house from much. The impact from the wrecking ball broke the brick, and the "paper" held it together. But what happens when you put a roof on, and you set up the bomb? First, your doors and windows are still just as fragile... and if the impact is as strong as the wrecking ball, the entire front of the house loses structural integrity, and caves in. Suddenly, the roof doesn't have enough support, so down it comes on your head.

    5. Re:Idle? by msimm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because idle is a failed concept still looking for a justification.

      --
      Quack, quack.
    6. Re:Idle? by Seriousity · · Score: 1

      Samzenpus seems to make all of the idle posts, perhaps his submissions are set to idle by default?

      --
      This post was made in complete sincere seriousity; as such any attempts to derive humour are doomed to instant failure.
    7. Re:Idle? by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      But wouldn't it be better to protect the outside of your house?

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    8. Re:Idle? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Suddenly, the roof doesn't have enough support, so down it comes on your head.

      Better yet, the armoured wallpaper makes it impossible for rescuers to dig you out, or air to get in.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    9. Re:Idle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A better solution is required.

      I say just build houses with rubber walls, that would solve everything.

    10. Re:Idle? by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Indeed, I imagined it was the other way around. The wrecking ball would hit the wallpaper side, and just bounce off like a bullet from superman's chest. Much more useful wallpaper, but alas, probably impossible.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    11. Re:Idle? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Right ... the force of the impact goes where, exactly?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Idle? by Spazztastic · · Score: 1

      Because the editors are trying to scam you into thinking Idle isn't the craphole it really is.

      Flamebait? Looks like some Idle enthusiast has mod points...

      --
      Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
    13. Re:Idle? by hattig · · Score: 1

      The videos clearly show that it isn't useful for keeping structure intact.

      It's useful for limiting spread of masonry shrapnel by containing the walls.

      So you have a bomb outside and it goes off, and the people inside the building (behind the walls - the ones behind glass are sushi regardless) will be better protected. The walls will still be destroyed.

      They should develop a clear version for applying to glass, although for military uses I guess they wouldn't care about the X mesh, as the rest is clear-ish.

    14. Re:Idle? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Informative

      The videos clearly show that it isn't useful for keeping structure intact.

      I disagree. The videos show me that the main failure mode of masonry walls is by 'folding' when the joins between blocks separate. This sheeting is very strong in tension, apparently, and prevents the block joints from opening to the point of causing the wall to tumble. I assume the results from a bomb overpressure wave would be similar to those from the wrecking ball.

      Didn't they feature a similar experiment of one of those "Mythbusters" knockoff shows? IIRC, they used pickup truck bed liner sprayed on the test walls, and had similar results.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    15. Re:Idle? by NekSnappa · · Score: 1

      Actually there are impact resistant windows developed for hurricane/tornado prone areas. IIRC they consist of a layer of some sort of polymer between two sheets of glass.

      I also saw the Discovery show "Time Warp" fire a 2X4 from an air cannon at a standard storm window that had a clear adhesive polymer product put on the back side of it. The glass shattered of course, but the board didn't get all the way through, and polymer held the shattered glass together.

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    16. Re:Idle? by phoenixwade · · Score: 1

      It's a 3M product - I live in Florida and do video work, we produced an ad for the version that can be applied to the outside of the glass, as few years ago (fun, shooting stuff at glass and getting paid for it is nearly a perfect job, I envy the Mythbusters) The window after application is nearly as strong as the laminated safety glass you are referring to and applies like window tint except that you use a water based adhesive, rather than the regular soap and water approach you use with tinting.

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    17. Re:Idle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what I'm thinking. This would be way better than my current mattress-over-bathtub strategy during storms. Either way though, I still hope the parking brake doesn't come off in high wind.

    18. Re:Idle? by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Found the Smash Lab link in another post: http://www.rhinoliningsindustrial.com/videos.php?video_id=244

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    19. Re:Idle? by wagnerrp · · Score: 3, Funny

      The phantom zone...

    20. Re:Idle? by uncledrax · · Score: 1

      Watch the video.. honestly, I wonder if a couple layers of Tybek or something would do the same thing on the inside.

      The video is very unconvincing as to it's claims.. they just shove a swing-chained cannon ball into a single-layer concrete block and a single-layer brick mini-wall. The strength of block/brick walls lies in it's interlocking members.. something I don't think you can really replicate on a 2'^2 section. Also, especially in the brick case, I don't think I've ever seen just a single-unsupported run of Brick (usually even if it's a skin wall, you'll have some wrap and framing behind it, although older brick construction would be multiple runs of brick).

      The purpose of the wrap is to basically prevent a wall from being penetrated.. although per hte video, it'd still be horribly deformed. So worst case, you wouldn't get killed by the flying 2x4, but as the structure of your load-bearing wall fails, you'd instead have your house clapse on you?

      It might be great stuff.. but um.. the video doesn't prove it. Perhaps a video with some explosions?

      --
      ----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
    21. Re:Idle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This should be a better seller:

      http://architecture.about.com/od/periodsstyles/ig/House-Styles/Monolithic-Dome.htm

      But homes that could survive a tornado or a hurricane will never be in style. To keep that classic suburban look, Americans would rather rebuild and rebuild and rebuild and ...

    22. Re:Idle? by GaryOlson · · Score: 2, Informative

      On a vector perpendicular to normal space.

      --
      Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
    23. Re:Idle? by Efreet · · Score: 1

      It might not protect that much against high explosives, but the main danger facing military personel sitting in rooms on bases is mortar or artillery fire. Those mostly kill through shrapnel which I presume this wallpaper would stop rather effectivly.

      --
      This sig wasn't worth reading, was it.
    24. Re:Idle? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      So if the aim is to secure a building, you also put this inside your hollow-core doors, and put it over your windows instead (or inside of) glass. For doors that don't blow off easily, some sort of hinge arrangement in the kevlar seems doable, and you'd just paper right over the windows.

      It'd be useful for areas where deluded folks drive carbombs into buildings, and would stop other larger-than-bullets low-speed projectiles as well.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    25. Re:Idle? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or just wrap the wrecking ball in this stuff, for safety purposes.

    26. Re:Idle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously! This is huge! The diaper heads have just lost their favorite mode of attack.

    27. Re:Idle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, new markets emerging in the middle east daily...

    28. Re:Idle? by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Fully reflected on to the item making the impact. It's called Flubber.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    29. Re:Idle? by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      Didn't they feature a similar experiment of one of those "Mythbusters" knockoff shows? IIRC, they used pickup truck bed liner sprayed on the test walls, and had similar results.

      I think the show was "Smash Lab" and the bed liner test was much better. They built a small concrete block building and sprayed it with bed bed liner - kind of like a stucco treatment. Then they hit the building with a car bomb outside. Not some bowling ball on a chain, but an actual car bomb. That's how you do it!

      The results were remarkable, and the bed liner material is probably cheaper, more readily available and easier to apply. When I saw this wallpaper being pimped in Discover this month I thought the same thing... why on earth would you go with this difficult to apply stuff when a spray-on treatment appears to work better? Particularly if you notice that the wallpaper requires bolts and plates to hold the header and footer to the floor and ceiling. Not exactly the most aesthetic product... Meanwhile the bed liner idea from some B-grade TV show could actually come in any color, provide an attractive exterior finish and act like vinyl siding in resisting moisture and degradation and not requiring painting. Score one for the B team!

    30. Re:Idle? by worip · · Score: 1

      Now combine this with some wire mesh (to form a Faraday-cage when you've papered the whole room (including the ceiling)) and the tinfoil-hat-crowd will go mad for it!

      --
      A picture is worth exactly 1024 words.
    31. Re:Idle? by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      the same place energy goes in any other predominantly inelastic collision.

    32. Re:Idle? by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Maybe not - dilatants like D3o do something like that. I believe the British military commissioned helmets made of the stuff and they are currently used by the US Ski Team, amongst others. YouTube has videos of people being whacked by hammers and bats while wearing the stuff.

    33. Re:Idle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see why people always assume that with a new technology the old rules still apply. For example, if I were to use titanium steel to build a car, I would not use a typical aluminum design. The end product would be far too rigid given the properties of titanium steel. Instead, I would create a new design that requires much less material to design my vehicle, thus maintaining the properties needed in automobiles.

      I think the same applies here. This stuff might not be useful in "traditional" construction, but surely someone can come up with some new building designs for load-bearing structures that take the addition of this material into account.

    34. Re:Idle? by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Put bathtubs over the windows and cover your mattress with wallpaper?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    35. Re:Idle? by Kamokazi · · Score: 1

      Useful things in idle give idle the illusion of being useful.

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    36. Re:Idle? by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      Or even better: Drive-By Alley

    37. Re:Idle? by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      What concerns me about thier tests is it doesn't look like they had any loading on the wall.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    38. Re:Idle? by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Wow, I wonder if there are gloves with the stuff. Perfect for a little bit of ultra-violence.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    39. Re:Idle? by hattig · · Score: 1

      I was really thinking about intact as in "will the building need to be pulled down afterwards" - I agree that the walls are more intact with this sheeting than not, and thus could prevent a building collapse, allowing people to get out instead of becoming pancakes.

    40. Re:Idle? by 0311 · · Score: 1

      The house across the street...

    41. Re:Idle? by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Now combine this with some wire mesh

      If they can make it conductive, they'd save the trouble.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  3. how flexible is it? by rich3rd · · Score: 4, Funny

    i think i need underpants made out of this stuff.

    1. Re:how flexible is it? by Dante+Shamest · · Score: 3, Funny

      I find your needs disturbing.

    2. Re:how flexible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If women keep kicking you with their heals right there you may be doin it wrong...

    3. Re:how flexible is it? by rich3rd · · Score: 1

      "HEEL to the bawls..." - Bas Ruten

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y

    4. Re:how flexible is it? by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 2, Funny

      I find the juxtaposition of "underpants" with Vader's "I find your (lack of faith) disturbing," to be mentally painful. Ow ow ow, force-balls.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    5. Re:how flexible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disturb your needs finding.

    6. Re:how flexible is it? by rvw · · Score: 1

      i think i need underpants made out of this stuff.

      To keep traffic from coming in or going out?

    7. Re:how flexible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find the juxtaposition of "underpants" with Vader's "I find your (lack of faith) disturbing," to be mentally painful. Ow ow ow, force-balls.

      Do you analyze jokes at parties too? The ladies must really go for you.

    8. Re:how flexible is it? by Nathrael · · Score: 1

      Or maybe he's Superman.

      --
      A good education is a bit like a STD - it makes you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and gives you a desire to spread it.
    9. Re:how flexible is it? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's bomb-proof, not rocket-proof...

    10. Re:how flexible is it? by Macthorpe · · Score: 2, Funny

      I find your underpants lacking.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    11. Re:how flexible is it? by MaerD · · Score: 1

      I find your lack of underpants disturbing.

      --
      I put on my robe and wizard hat..
    12. Re:how flexible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mod this plz, other ppl need a laff too!

    13. Re:how flexible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      find your needs disturbing.

      I find your underpants lacking.

      I find your lack of underpants disturbing.

    14. Re:how flexible is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this wallpaper made of the same material as Bruce Banner's underpants?

  4. Now just need a bomb-proof wallpaper for windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Might reduce the BSOD freq.

  5. Re:Now just need a bomb-proof wallpaper for window by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_aluminium

  6. Kevlar by inKubus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It looks like it's just self-stick Kevlar. So it's going to be hideously expensive. However, maybe the Army overpaying for it will help them find advanced production methods to cut costs and benefit us in the long run. But then what? Possible uses: line car gas/hydrogen tanks with it. But aside from that and protecting masonry walls from disintegrating in an explosion, I can't see any practical use. As a commenter on the article site said, what if this is a load bearing wall? Looks like it would just fold up and take the building with it. Great, no shrapnel, I get it. But as cool a future would be where every building is bomb proof, I don't see it happening before a nanotech alternative that's self-healing and much better at linear support.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
    1. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Here's a hint: Not everything developed in this world is for YOU.

    2. Re:Kevlar by RobVB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But as cool a future would be where every building is bomb proof, ...

      Then they'll just make bigger bombs. If Greek and Roman armies never used leather and chain mail armor, people would still (?) be robbing liquor stores with bows and arrows.

      --
      I'd rather you rationally disagree than irrationally agree.
    3. Re:Kevlar by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Um, you might want to check your history again. The longbow was the weapon that made plate body armor obsolete.

      As for the other thing, that's the whole idea: better armor makes them develop bigger bombs. That is a back-and-forth that has been going on for centuries.

    4. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How bullet proof anything? That stuff could make bullet proof t-shirts possible. Also try replacing all the shell of a car with this instead of the general hard plastics/metal shells they have now. Suddenly the car is 15% lighter and gets 30% better milage. Plus who wouldnt want a bulletproof house. That would be sweet

    5. Re:Kevlar by adamchou · · Score: 1

      I could see them using it in area's affected by hurricane's, typhon's, and maybe tornados. Seems like it'd be good to protect houses from debris flying at 100+ mph.

    6. Re:Kevlar by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      It doesn't count unless you use it in a sentence.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    7. Re:Kevlar by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Mail armor isn't plate - though it usually goes with and supplements plate armor. Though, yea - leather armor would be mostly useless regarding bows.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    8. Re:Kevlar by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Informative

      Mail (chain) armor was generally less useful against arrows than plate to start with... that is one of the reasons that plate armor was developed in the first place. But if you think that mail armor was often a supplemen (worn under) plate armor, you are mistaken. It might have been in rare instances, but in general plate armor was enough of a burden that any other metal would have weighed far too much and further hampered the warrior's effectiveness in battle. Plate was the "ultimate' body armor. It may have had some mail at weak points such as armpits but in general mail and plate were not worn together.

    9. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      You forgot the apostrophe in "tornado's",

    10. Re:Kevlar by rekenner · · Score: 1

      And you might want to check *your* history.
      This was mostly not the case. Plate, when taken care of, was very good protection against the longbow. If you didn't take care of it, then shoddy worksmanship would allow it to be pierced in some spots, and of course there were still the joints and such that could be penetrated. (Though, even maille isn't that bad of protection against arrows, either. Bolts, on the other hand, would pierce maille... And plate, at very close distance, and with some luck. So, freak cases.). So. One arrow against plate? Yeah, no. 2000 arrows against a charge? Yeah, it'll kill a few guys, of course.
      Let me put it this way. Would armor have been developed that didn't give greater protection from arrows, if all it did was slow you down when you wore it?

      Of course, this is the hard and fast -- At points, arrows did go through plate, sure. Then it got thicker. Problem solved. And it was still totally usable in battle. Plate was, by and large, impregnable.... Unless you have (melee) weapons meant to fuck the guy inside up, despite it, but, that's another case. If there was one thing people back in those days were good at, it was killing people. And preventing people from being killed by those methods. It's pretty much all they did.
      (Also, if someone wants to bring up the Battle of Agincourt, this is more because ... the French were stupid enough to run through a field of mud, in plate, while having arrows rained on them. English longbowmen *helped*, but French stupidity lost that fight)

    11. Re:Kevlar by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I should qualify this a bit. A major problem with mail was that arrows tended to punch through it. Especially arrows that had a long sharp point, designed to work against mail. It might not penetrate enough to be a killing shot but that's rather irrelevant in battle: the idea is to make as many of the enemy as ineffective as possible. A couple of flesh wounds can take out a combatant; it need not be an arrow through the heart.

      So some groups started attaching plates to their mail in front, in order to better deflect the arrows. (And other blows: they then realized that plates tended to spread the impact of other weapons as well, minimizing injury.) Plates worked so well that a few groups got the idea that covering the whole body in plates would make the ultimate warrior. And indeed, from s defensive standpoint, plate armor withstood sword blows and thrusts and also arrows much better than any of the older stuff did.

      Henceforth, the elite classes would wear plate armor, and the lower classes would use mail or leather or lesser forms of armor. But the only time when mail and plate were commonly used together (i.e., large quantities of both plate and mail), was in that earlier, intermediate period when plates were added to mail as an add-on, as it were.

      This is definitely not intended as a complete history, but a brief summary and generalization. Still, the main point is that among other things, the bow and arrow drove the change from mail to plate armor, and then, with the development of the longbow, made that obsolete as well.

      Amazing what can be done with some bent pieces of wood.

    12. Re:Kevlar by Xest · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's not that simple, different arrow heads were effective against different armour types, this is why sometimes chain was worn with plate.

      Arrows with thin, pointed heads (bodkin arrows) were more effective against chain mail armour because they could pierce between the links and split them much more effectively than wide edged broadhead arrows could.

      In contrast, bodkins weren't terribly effective against plate - not so much because of the shape, but because they were rarely hardened. Whilst hardened broadheads fired from longbows could penetrate plante they were far from the death's knell of plate, hence why the Spanish conquistadors in South America were plenty happy to use it still despite the natives being extremely skilled archers having indepently created longbows.

      The real death's knell for plate was the spread of firearms, something the native people of South America did not generally have (they had looted weapons and such but not widespread) as a weapon to fight back against the conquistadors.

      Even certain silk armour was popular in some parts of the world, because it didn't tear when hit by a broadhead and so the silk could be used to remove the head preventing infection from the arrow head. It would sometimes be used under chain, plate or both.

      Really, it's just not as simple as longbow beats plate, the only weapon to successfully have a long reign against pretty much all types of personal body armour has been the firearm until the invention of kevlar.

    13. Re:Kevlar by rekenner · · Score: 1

      No. Wrong. Totally wrong. Bullshit. Maille was *COMMONLY* worn under maille. Be it in the form of a full maille shirt or a gousset that was only there to fill in the holes.
      Further, plate was not as heavy as you'd believe - The combination of the two was not enough to actually slow a trained knight down, except in terms of long term stamina.

      How did I miss this one earlier, wow?

    14. Re:Kevlar by qc_dk · · Score: 1

      Um, you might want to check your history again. The longbow was the weapon that made plate body armor obsolete.

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

      Longbows and full steel platemail developed around the same time ~1200's and stayed in fashion until about the 1600's, when the bows were being replaced by guns and plate mail fell out of favour. Note however that platemail protecting the the torso was still popular for cavalry at the time of Frederick II and Napoleon. So platemail lived 400 years together with longbows and outlived bows as an implement of war by another 200, making it very hard to argue that platemail was obsoleted by the longbow, unless you believe some of the most brilliant strategist and tacticians to ever live were also complete morons.

    15. Re:Kevlar by rekenner · · Score: 0, Troll

      Thank you I love you will you have my babies.

    16. Re:Kevlar by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Possible uses: line car gas/hydrogen tanks with it. But aside from that and protecting masonry walls from disintegrating in an explosion, I can't see any practical use.

      Dude, you just listed two very practical uses for it! ^^

      I thing wrapping it around anything that might explode sounds like a good idea.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    17. Re:Kevlar by Angostura · · Score: 1

      I can't see any practical use.

      I've ordered some for my 3 year old's bedroom.

    18. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting about the venerable "war pick", "war hammer" and "battle axe".

      Battle axes and war hammers didn't look like the ones in video games or movies; they weren't huge and heavy. They were twenty or thirty inches long, thin, with a reinforced handle. Axes had a four to six inch wide hatchet-like axe blade and usually a big spike on the other side. Hammers had a two inch hammer head on one side and a six inch spike on the other. War picks had a long spike on one side, and often a small hammerhead on the other for weight.

      The bladed or blunt side was for regular soldiers who weren't wearing plate armor. A knight could just smash them out of the way. It was also good for smashing an opposing knight upside the head; apparently the force of the blow would be transmitted straight through the helmet into the guy's brain. Perhaps they should have researched the concept of "padding"...

      The big spike was for plate armor. It was swung in a high arc, over his shield, and punched straight through the enemy's plate. Then you could wiggle it around, causing more damage and yank it out (or more likely, shove the other guy off it with your foot). If you were on foot with a longer pole-arm, you could knock the legs out from under a knight's horse, and have everyone gang up on him.

      Also used was the morningstar, a mace whose ball had a bunch of long, sharp spikes on it. It worked on the same principle as the war pick, but amplified the concept a bit.

      Wanna see pictures and articles? Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bec_de_corbin, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_axe, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)

      Bottom line: Knights had a lot more to worry about than longbows, but they still wore armor. It was the invention of FIREARMS that made plate armor pointless, and even then, people wore breastplates.

    19. Re:Kevlar by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Informative

      Okay, having looked this up again (I hadn't for some time), I will have to back down from my position that the longbow killed plate armor. But the longbow did demonstrate that it was no longer the panacea it had been (as at Agincourt and other examples), and it gradually faded starting about then, through the advent of early firearms, and basically died in the form of full-body armor not long after.

      While I am not "calling bullshit", as it were, I find the story of the silk armor to be a bit incredible. I am pretty familiar with silk and its properties. I am not saying it was not popular, or that there were not stories, but I seriously question the effectiveness of any quantity of silk that anyone but a "noble born" could afford, as armor.

      What I can say with authority, however, is that kevlar, by itself, is not and has never been particularly effective against "firearms" in general. It can prevent the penetration of certain handgun rounds, but by no means all, and still allows considerable damage to the wearer. For the most part kevlar vests were worn by law enforcement and the military to reduce damage, not prevent it. Even for the handgun calibers that kevlar would normally stop, pointy jacketed and/or hardened slugs can still penetrate kevlar like butter. Even relatively low-power rifles will punch straight through a kevlar vest.

      However, the combination of kevlar and high-tech ceramics ("Dragon Skin" is probably the best example) can withstand a hit from a relatively high-powered rifle, and with relatively little damage to the wearer. Especially if some of the newer aramid-type fibers are used instead of kevlar. But those developments are VERY recent... no more than a few years.

    20. Re:Kevlar by rekenner · · Score: 1

      I'm going to assume you either replied to the wrong person or misconstrued my post - I brushed off writing something like this because it didn't seem terribly relevant. I'm mostly going "WHOA, HAY, WRONG" about arrows v plate. Yeah, polearms (as I mentioned in another post, even bec du corbin explicitly) are what killed knights. Concussive stuff, a bit, as well, but mostly ... Well, can-openers.

      Though, and this is admittedly a nitpick and only mostly true - After plate was around, shields mostly went out of style (as there was much less of a need for them)

    21. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, the long bow DID make plate armour pretty obsolete, right up until the point when some clever Spanish people discovered that if you heat up the metal and keep hammering it, known as tempering, made the armour so hard those arrows bounce off. As some English knights discovered in some battle or other, I forget which.

      But you're right, it's just an endless sea saw between attack and defense really.

    22. Re:Kevlar by rekenner · · Score: 1

      Okay, having looked this up again (I hadn't for some time), I will have to back down from my position that the longbow killed plate armor. But the longbow did demonstrate that it was no longer the panacea it had been (as at Agincourt and other examples), and it gradually faded starting about then, through the advent of early firearms, and basically died in the form of full-body armor not long after.

      You're at least closer to right, and for that at least, I'm happy. You're still getting your cause and effect mixed up (plate being a panacea that longbows cured, given that ... it was the other way around, in terms of invention dates). And that Agincourt was bad leadership + mud + arrows, not just arrows. Arrows are artillery - They pin you down, break charges, break morale, etc. They're damned useful, but plate was great protection against them as actual damage dealers.

      I mean, really. Read the actual description of the battle itself. It's full of bad decisions on the part of the French. I'm going to start quoting, here.

      The French men-at-arms reached the English line and actually pushed it back, with the longbowmen continuing to fire until they ran out of arrows and then dropping their bows and joining the melée (which lasted about three hours), implying that the French were able to walk through the fire of tens of thousands of arrows while taking comparatively few casualties. But the physical pounding even from non-penetrating arrows, combined with the slog in heavy armour through the mud, the heat and lack of oxygen in plate armour with the visor down, and the crush of their numbers meant they could "scarcely lift their weapons" when they finally engaged the English line.

      See? Bunches of arrows slogged off like nothing. Tens of thousands of arrows, few casualties. Plate must have been damned awesome.

      When the English archers, using hatchets, swords and other weapons, attacked the now disordered and fatigued French, the French could not cope with their unarmoured assailants (who were much less hindered by the mud). The exhausted French men-at-arms are described as having been knocked to the ground and then unable to get back up.

      And there you go. The archers got more kills in melee. Crazy, isn't it? Plate was damned good at what it did.

      Also, finally: Here. 35 years after Agincourt. Invented. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Miscellaneous/Real_Fighting_Stuff/Avant_armour_1440.jpg

    23. Re:Kevlar by rxmd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Um, you might want to check your history again. The longbow was the weapon that made plate body armor obsolete.

      Actually it wasn't. Plate armor was widely used in Europe after the Battle of Agincourt in 1415; arguably it gained in popularity.

      It was very difficult to pierce plate with a longbow. The English victory at Agincourt is more due to the terrain than anything else; arguably plalte became even more popular after Agincourt, precisely because it offered reasonable protection against arrows. (Protecting horses etc. was another matter.) The crossbow did a much better job against plate armor. It delivered more kinetic energy, and it took much less time to train a crossbowman than a longbowman. Firearms did the rest in the 15th and 16 century. The single most driving factor, however, was cost - plate armor was too expensive to make and maintain, and if you can hire a whole squad of Landsknechts (arquebusiers, what have you) for the same money it takes to have plate armor made for yourself, the arquebusiers win. At that point, however, longbows had already been obsolete for more than a century.

      --
      As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
    24. Re:Kevlar by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Informative

      This, also, is misleading. Some of the most spectacular remaining samples and artwork of armor are plate, but are for _jousting_. Like modern bomb-proof armor, what is worn for such a specialized use is far bulkier, more expensive, and heavier than actual combat armor. And even the best plate was often supplemented at joints such as knees and elbows and hands, with chain where making joints out of plate would be too awkward or expensive.

      Also, the better plate of the Middle ages was certainly capable of stopping the ordinary "clothyard shaft" of the longbow. The tips of the clothyard shaft were typically rather soft, inexpensive steel: it _flattens_, bends, and glances off with even a quite direct hit on a good quality breast plate or helmet. (Yes, I've seen this tried.)

      It is misleading to say "the bow and arrow drove the change" when the bow and arrow predate civilizaiton: plate armor does not. Other factors include the introduction of the _inexpensive_ long bow: the price of a single armored knight was easily undercut by the price of 20 farm boys with bows, and they could produce an arrow storm that would not only kill the knight's less armored steed, but was likely to put clothyard shafts in his joints. Couple that with a muddy field where a knight's boots and heavy armor will bog down, such as occurred at Agincourt, and the yeomen with daggers could easily beat the French knights to death, force their visors into the mud to drown, and shove daggers into their eye slits.

      The concept of "plate" long predates the middle ages, remember: even the Greeks and wealthiest Egyptins had breast plates or bronze, quite effective against the weapons of their time. Their efforts were limited by weight and the strength of the metal, but it was certainly the ancestor of "plate".

    25. Re:Kevlar by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I've heard of steppe nomads - mongols or huns - using silk armour. Supposedly it snags on the arrow and wraps round it, making it easier to pull out.

      But the person you're replying to is making the mistake of confusing bow and longbow.

      Steppe people would, at least to begin with, fight against other steppe people. Their weapon systems were optimised accordingly. A longbow wouldn't be much use to them.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    26. Re:Kevlar by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yes, my point with kevlar is not that it mitigates firearms completely, but that up until that point, if someone shot you, you'd almost certainly become combat ineffective for probably the rest of whatever war you're fighting. The introduction of kevlar did at least open the door for many more troops to be back out and fighting anything from straight away or to just a few days. The point is the firearm was no longer something that could just masacre troops en-masse quite like it could used to in in the pre-kevlar days. Like you say, it's not something that negates the firearm, but it severely dampens the effect they have in comparison to the pre-kevlar days, other advancements in personal armour as you mention have a similar improved effect. There is an impressive video on YouTube of a soldier in Iraq getting hit by a round, falling to the floor and getting right back up in combat pose to look for the shooter and I think that illustrates the difference between now and the pre-bullet proof armour days quite well!

      Regarding silk, you're correct from a Western viewpoint that it would be mostly only nobles that would wear it, but this was primarily because it tended to come from asia and to a lesser extent the middle east. It was relatively common amongst the Mongols, the Saracens, the Japanese and such for example. The shortage of it and hence the limitation to nobles in Europe stemmed from the difficulties of import more than anything, it just wasn't available in plentiful enough quantity in Europe as it was in Asia for everyone to be equipped with it.

    27. Re:Kevlar by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The patches on an undershirt to cover gaps in the plate isn't in dispute.

      But I've never seen any evidence of full mail under full plate. For one, you'd get better protection per unit weight by just having thicker plate. And on the subject of weight, it'd be impossible to move in it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    28. Re:Kevlar by drsquare · · Score: 1

      It's harder to put bigger bombs in suitcases and under coats.

    29. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we're talking about classical Greeks, I've seen plate, lamellar and even composite, but never mail. You have a source?

    30. Re:Kevlar by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Heavy wool or leather, sometimes was arguably a component of mail armor. It protected the wearer from the chafing effects of the mail and provided some protection from bruising due to the force of impact from weapons however blunted by the mail.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    31. Re:Kevlar by qc_dk · · Score: 1

      I have a suspicion that you are also male, so it would be difficult.

      But, if you are suggesting developing a YY-chromosome mutant and the Axlotl tanks described in Dune, then I'm all in.

      I have a perfect mad scientist laugh and a bitchin' cape. Could you bring a volcanic island for our lair?

    32. Re:Kevlar by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Other factors include the introduction of the _inexpensive_ long bow: the price of a single armored knight was easily undercut by the price of 20 farm boys with bows

      You don't make a man into an archer just by putting a bow in his hand. The big disadvantage of the longbow was that it took so long to train a man to use it that you had to start when he was a boy.

      As to hitting a joint, what do you think the chance of that is? Or do these peasants develop Robin Hood accuracy with a few hours training?

      Of course it's a moot point. An improvised militia like that would most likely run away.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    33. Re:Kevlar by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      And when he turns five and doesn't like the colour?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    34. Re:Kevlar by Xest · · Score: 1

      Yeah, besides, real wallpaper has stuff like pictures of Transformers and Thomas the Tank Engine on it. If it doesn't come with pictures like that on it isn't wallpaper!

    35. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kevlar (or equivalent) sheet is not that expensive anymore. Armour made from it is still quite steep, but that's not due to material costs.

    36. Re:Kevlar by hattig · · Score: 1

      what if this is a load bearing wall?

      Without: Building collapses, concertina effect. People are mushy pancakes. Happens quickly.

      With: Building damaged seriously, vastly higher chance of no concertina effect (especially if on both sides of load bearing wall, so it can't flex back the other way, don't bomb blasts have an explosion, then a compression?). People not pancakes, nor sushi-fied from flying debris (windows excepted). Building may still collapse, but may happen a lot slower.

    37. Re:Kevlar by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Well, longbows were used as area-denial weapons: Take a lot of longbow archers and have them pelt the area the enemy army is traveling through; this will get a lot of them (the enemies, not the archers) dead before they come into melee range. Therefore it's not far off to assume that an archers-vs.-noble fight involves a lot of archers.

      I could imagie that a hundred archers firing nonstop at a single heavily armored target will have a decent chance of hitting an unprotected area - many small chances can make a large one.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    38. Re:Kevlar by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2, Informative

      "
      This is definitely not intended as a complete history, but a brief summary and generalization. Still, the main point is that among other things, the bow and arrow drove the change from mail to plate armor, and then, with the development of the longbow, made that obsolete as well."

      Uh, no. If anything, the price of plate mail, combined with gunpowder, made it obsolete. At Agincourt, the longbow shots were used to bog down the French knights in plate mail (and to score the occasional hit through an eye slit and on the mounts).

      Longbows could sometimes penetrate plate, but only at close range and it also depended a lot on the quality of the plate mail and of the arrow.

      Plate stayed around well into the gunpowder era, though not the full plate suits, but more the breastplate, helmet, demi-greaves (full plate on just the front of the legs), etc.

      Breastplates during the English Civil War were "proven" by having a musket fired at them from 10 paces - you can see the dents on breastplates from this era in the Tower of London. (Hence the term bullet-proof.)

      Various bits of full plate have been used all the way through the Napoleonic Wars and WWII, and is still rather effective against small arms fire, though the various modern kevlar and ceramic inserts are generally superior.

    39. Re:Kevlar by boethius78 · · Score: 1

      I recall seeing a test of silk armour some time ago, probably on MythBusters or some similar show. IIRC, the arrow still pierced the flesh, but the silk was unbroken and stayed between the arrow head and the flesh. So, there is still a wound created, but it's a clean wound. I think the intention of silk armour was to prevent death from infected wounds, not to prevent the wound in the first place. Clearly, you'd also want to have mail/plate/felt in order to reduce the depth of the wound.

    40. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is definitely not intended as a complete history, but a brief summary and generalization. Still, the main point is that among other things, the bow and arrow drove the change from mail to plate armor, and then, with the development of the longbow, made that obsolete as well.

      Heyday of longbow: 1300-1500

      Heyday of plate armor: 1375-1650.

      You might want to consider revising your theory so that it can explain those dates.

    41. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Not to mention house's, seem's and debri's.

    42. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No one likes you, because you are a cunt."

    43. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People in hurricane and tornado zones might like it. Sounds like it wouldn't be a bad thing to line a safe room in.

    44. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well at some level, what the longbow did was get the knights off of their horses. While plate provedes very good (though still imperfect) protection agains longbows, it isn't practicable to fully protect a horse in the same manner. There were plenty of men at arms wearing plate during the Wars of the Roses. But the large numbers of longbowmen on both sided meant that almost everybody fought dismounted. The mounted charge that sweeps all before it was, for the most part, a thing of the past.

      Plate armor doesn't really start to disappear until muskets become common. And even then, we see the amount of coverage decrease as the thickness of the armor becomes ever greater in an attempt to protect one's vitals. The greater penetration of black powder weapons is the main reason that they replaced the quicker-firing bow.

    45. Re:Kevlar by kungfugleek · · Score: 1

      So it's going to be hideously expensive.

      Well, you know the phrase: Good, Cheap, Bulletproof. Pick two.

    46. Re:Kevlar by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Interesting. So what was it that the Greeks' and Romans' enemies developed to defeat armour and that people rob liquor stores with?

    47. Re:Kevlar by mdarksbane · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I thought the main reason was that it takes years to train a longbowman and minutes to train a musketeer?

      Rate of fire, accuracy, and distance were all superior for a longbow, the training and strength required to draw one was a biproduct of a very specific lifestyle that only existed for a short period of time historically.

    48. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazing what can be done with some bent pieces of wood.

      Bah, you are so wrong.

      You need string too. Can't forget the string.

    49. Re:Kevlar by tabrnaker · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I think the whole point is that they can make money from it.

      A cheaper solution which i'm going to be experimenting with in earthquake prone mexico is building a zero energy home using 18"-24" rammed earth walls doped with lime and placing chicken wire inside both sides of the frame to embed it directly into the wall as it's being constructed. There's some evidence to suggest such a method will render an earthquake proof wall, though nobody has quite done it in this manner before, and give it a couple of years and no wrecking ball is going to tear it down either.

      Top it off with a self-supporting roof and the most danger you'll be in is from falling books... and that 30' crevasse opening under your feet, but you can't solve everything in a day :)

      If i could find a non-leaching easy to construct plastic (easy for an uneducated native as i want all my structures to be buildable by hand) i might try out the concentric rings idea to absorb and deflect seismic waves.

    50. Re:Kevlar by hemp · · Score: 1

      There is no way a simple farm boy could master a long bow without years of practice.

      --
      Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
    51. Re:Kevlar by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      "Simple farm boy"? Oh, my. I think you underestimate the skill of a "simple farm boy", and their musculature from working in a non-industrial age. A 140 pound pull, such as might be found in a medieval longbow, is quite a lot for a modern archer, but it's not that much to someone who helps plow fields. (Ask any modern farmer: muscle still matters.) And "years of training" are what Sunday afternoons were for, in villages all over Wales and England: it was apparently a weekly event in many districts.

    52. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smaller, thinner bullet- and stab-proof vests for the rest of us.

    53. Re:Kevlar by Kagato · · Score: 1

      Given it's a fairly loose mesh, it should be much cheaper than Kevlar per Sq. Ft.

    54. Re:Kevlar by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Not to be nit pick, but I am pretty sure that is incorrect.

      If my memory serves me (and it usually does), it was the crossbow not the longbow that made heavy Armor obsolete.

      I'll not argue that the longbow at close range could certainly ruin you day if you were wearing plate, however that is not how it was typically used. It was used from afar in large volleys. The main strength of the long bow was that due to its pull, the range was significantly larger, meaning you could place your archery units well out of harms way, and more importantly out of range of the enemies archers, so essentially be able to strike with impunity. Perhaps the first known instance of "Air Superiority"...lol

      The PROBLEM with the long bow was A) they were difficult to manufacture in any quantity, and B) it took quite a bit of training to get your average serf proficient with it.

      The crossbow on the other hand was just as deadly at close and medium range, could easily be produced in large quantities, and training on the thing was very simple. Point and shoot. Wind the crank. Repeat.

      So when any jerk can basically run up to you with a 5$ crossbow and kill you in your 1000$ armor, well the rest is history.

    55. Re:Kevlar by Dravik · · Score: 1

      Your concepts are interesting. Do you have a newsletter?

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    56. Re:Kevlar by TermV · · Score: 1

      Silk made it easier to pull out the arrow because the fabric covered the arrowhead's barb and prevented it from tearing the flesh when being pulled out.

    57. Re:Kevlar by holmstar · · Score: 1

      Except that kevlar isn't hard, rather it is flexible and has very high tensile strength. You could use it as the fibers in a composite, ala fiberglass, but it wouldn't be useful as structural component on it's own.

    58. Re:Kevlar by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

      Longbows could sometimes penetrate plate, but only at close range and it also depended a lot on the quality of the plate mail and of the arrow.

      The effectiveness of the longbow was pretty much English propaganda. An eastern or middle eastern composite bow was lighter and could shoot farther. So why did the English use longbows? Because they were cheap, quick, and easy to make. A composite bow takes over a year to make with multiple layers of different material glued together over time. The English were lucky enough to have an abundance of yew trees which had the required properties of flexibility, until they chopped them all down.

      So the English used victories like Agincourt to spread the word of their fearsome longbowmen. Meanwhile most of the rest of Europe was switching to crossbows, which while slow firing, took a lot less training to use effectively.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    59. Re:Kevlar by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Ouzo?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    60. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Cost is indeed the issue, but the cost of keeping a man in the field remains undiscussed here. The late Romans switched to cavalry because 1 man on a horse was indeed worth 20 men on foot: the logistic burden of feeding 20 man on horses in the field is a lot lower than keeping 20 garrisons of 20 men with limited mobility fed. This makes investment in arms and training worthwhile, and the knight is invented. They learned this lesson from fighting mounted barbarians: it's hard to chase them with legions.

      An army cannot live off the land indefinitely, and the ability to keep an army in the field longer than the enemy is a decisive advantage. The Roman empire for instance derives much of its military success against barbarians from its more mature economy. Farmers are not stupid. You can only take their animals and plunder their granaries once. They will hide their animals, adjust their crops to root vegetables etc and keep those in the ground for as long as possible, and in the worst case scenario run away. This is also why the potato was such a hit in the 16th and 17th century in the war torn low countries and Germany: its productive and well suited to keeping from armies.

      As long as long distance trade is immature and agricultural productivity low, small well trained heavily armoured armies, augmented with untrained local peasants if you are defending, are favoured. In the late middle ages things started to change. Moving people and large amounts of food on ships became cheaper, a greater number of people had the time and money to arm themselves and train, and the French took a long time doing something useful with the strategic implications of that. Already in 1302 a French army of knights and peasants was defeated by Flemish urban militia. In 1415 it is defeated by, amongst others, trained archers with heavy bows. The English simply invested more in trained mercenaries in that war.

      In defence of the French it is of course important to point out that they were the underdogs in this war from an economic point of view, and relied heavily on the call to arms of untrained peasants because they were the ones fighting near their homes. For the English there was no point in shipping in untrained peasants: for them all soldiers were important and expensive assets. The French army may have been bigger, but the English army was better trained and equipped and won for no other reason than that. Crediting that to the invention of the longbow is as silly as crediting other victories over knights and peasants to pikes, to crossbows, or in the 1302 case to the "goedendag" (yes, can be found in Wikipedia).

      Economic circumstances made investment in the training and equipment of infantry more sensible, leading to specialized mercenary infantry, and expensive armours for the increasingly less important heavy cavalry less sensible, leading amongst others to the development of the longbow and crossbow, and the gradual loss of armour by cavalry.

    61. Re:Kevlar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "dragon skin" is probably the worst example! it has been de-certified by NIST because the edges of the ceramic discs, when unsupported, were found to have no effect of penetration (ie the bullet went strait thru!)

      the name of the game right now is SAPI (Small Arms Protective Insert) and ESAPI (Enhanced...) plates made out of a composite of dyneema and ceramics, sometimes with a hardened steel component (for type IV usually). Typically a 10"x12" plate is worn front and back, and can be combined with soft armor (kevlar, etc.) underneath. The US armed forces are also using kidney and groin plates, but i've heard that they are not popular on foot patrol.

      the newest type IV plates can stop multiple hits from a .308 or .30-06 and weigh about 10 lbs each.

    62. Re:Kevlar by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      Not true. The real reason longbows were so devestating was because the men would train with them from birth. People in other countries simply couldn't draw them. You can tell when you find an archer's skeleton, since their spine is deformed from the massive amount of stress put on their skeletal structure. Othrer countries hated and feared the longbow.

      Crossbows, as you say, were easy to use and slow firing, but they weren't necessarily superior to the longbow. In some battles the longbows outranged even heavy crossbows.

  7. Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If this can stop projectiles from penetrating the wall, then think about the protection it could offer from tornados and hurricanes. Obviously not a direct hit, since there'd be far more structural damage, but how much of that damage caused by flying debris could be mitigated. At the very least, the protection it could offer for occupants.

    1. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by rekenner · · Score: 3, Informative

      Eh.
      Really, it's useless for hurricanes, aside from in places where people wouldn't be prepared for a hurricane anyway.
      At the very least, Florida's building code is such that, for anything built in the last 17 years (at least - I know the standards were strengthened after Andrew), the wind causing impacts is not what does damage - Aside from to windows. It's the the wind speed and pressure differences that destroy roofs and cause structural damage, and flooding that causes the most damage, really.
      Whoo, being a Floridian does have it's uses.

    2. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Mythbusters pretty much put that one to rest. Pressure differential (closed vs. open windows for example) makes almost no difference at all.

      What raises the roof is simply the shape of the roof. It causes lift that pulls it off the house. (Yes, that is a pressure differential, but not in the sense most people mean.) It is not interior pressure blowing the roof off, nor massive negative pressure outside "sucking" the roof off. It is simple aerodynamic lift.

    3. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If this can stop projectiles from penetrating the wall, then think about the protection it could offer from tornados and hurricanes.

      This was my first thought (too?). When in university in the early '90s, the institution I attended had a wind chamber and was investigating the effects of cyclone (southern Pacific - Hurricanes or Typhoons for everyone else) damage. I remembered being shocked to see that a piece of 2x4 wood travelling at cyclonic speeds could penetrate a brick wall. If you live in an area prone to these conditions and have seen the effect, you'd be considering the cost of it versus the chance of protecting yourself, your families and hopefully even your house...

    4. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a hole in the ground under the house has be proven effective and cheap. they call it cellar, go figure

    5. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by underqualified · · Score: 1

      fuck that. let's try it on comets!

    6. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 1

      Cellars only work with dry weather events, like tornadoes.(*) Hurricanes usually cause mass flooding. Not fun to be in a hole in the ground when that hole fills with water, with the house above collapsed and flying-death outside. (And a few days until the storm & rains around the hurricane subside.) Even in a tornado, if there's less crap flying around (because it's held together), the event will be more survivable.

      (*Unless it's a really awesome cellar.)

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    7. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      From what I've seen on the news (not living in a tornado-prone country and all), major damage can usually be attributed to the fact that houses are made out of ply wood and plastic, i.e. cheap. So I suspect an expensive bomb-proof retrofitting is out of the question or else they could have built a real stone house to begin with.

      I'm looking at 40cm thick stone walls here. That should be fairly effective at stopping a bit of wind. Then again the worst weather condition I've seen around here, were hailstones the size of small grapes, nothing noteworthy.

    8. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by SheeEttin · · Score: 0, Troll

      It is not interior pressure blowing the roof off, nor massive negative pressure outside "sucking" the roof off. It is simple aerodynamic lift.

      Last I heard, that's what lift WAS... A difference in pressure. Faster-moving fluids exert less pressure on their surroundings.

    9. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Please read what I wrote again.

    10. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      To be more specific, what part of "Yes, that is a pressure differential" did you not understand?

    11. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by rekenner · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. Different cause than I figured it was, but this wallpapering still wouldn't do anything, though.

    12. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Quantumstate · · Score: 4, Informative

      This seems to be a common misconception, probably due to it being taught badly in schools. Taking an aeroplane as a specific example since this is the most common example of lift. You will find that the Bernoulli effect (the lift generated by a pressure difference above and below the wing) is not the main reason why planes fly (although the effect does exist, it is just not a large enough force to keep a plane up).

      What demonstrate this most clearly are symmetrical winged aeroplanes which are things like stunt planes which often fly upside down. It should be evident from the fact the wing is symmetrical that the common explanation of lower pressure above because air goes around a curve making it go faster has zero effect here.

      If you have paid attention carefully when flying you may have noticed that a plane does not fly completely flat most of the time. There is a small angle between the planes wings and the direction of travel. Because air tends to follow the surface of the wing (sometimes called the Coanda effect) this means that the air gets deflected downwards by the wing. If the air accelerates down then by Newton's laws there is an equal and opposite force upwards on the plane generating lift so it can then fly.

      I have not read anything about how houses are affected but I would imagine it would be a similar effect with the roof deflecting air causing a force.

    13. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is an issue that has been much debated, and to the best of my knowledge not yet firmly decided.

      For one thing, hard-science experiments and calculations involving the Bernoulli effect over curved surfaces were what allowed the Wright brothers to be the first in powered flight. This is firmly established in history.

      On the other hand, what you say is true, in that symmetrical wing plans can still achieve lift. However (as you point out) not when completely horizontal to the airflow.

      So on the other, other hand, there is still measurable Bernoulli effect over a symmetrical wing, at any significant angle of attack.

      I am not disagreeing with you, simply saying that as far as I know, this is not a decided issue. Yet.

    14. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by mr+exploiter · · Score: 1

      How big must be your ego to think that something that is taught at schools and published on hundreds of books is wrong, and you figured it out only by looking at the window when you were flying!. But no you're wrong, the Bernoulli effect is present even in symmetric wings... but your're right in that they (the symmetric wings) have to have a slight angle of attack to produce lift. And talking about Newton's law is a red herring, of course it applies, but it's better described this way.

    15. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by smoker2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry but that's bullshit. Pressure difference is the main mechanism for a standard wing to work. You are actually impeding the air flow under the wing, which implies ... higher pressure !

      The reason for symmetrical wings on aerobatic aircraft is that they impede the flow even more and allow much greater control, at the expense of fuel efficiency.

      You would think that wikipedia would agree with your assessment if you were correct, but no, no they don't. Have a read.

    16. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      If this can stop projectiles from penetrating the wall, then think about the protection it could offer from tornados and hurricanes.

      I am imagining a bag made up of blast-proof wallpaper rolling down the road, filled with the pulverized remains of a human and his things.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    17. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, obviously they go to the trouble and expense of making wings with an aerofoil section just for shits and giggle.

    18. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by turing_m · · Score: 1

      You will find that the Bernoulli effect (the lift generated by a pressure difference above and below the wing) is not the main reason why planes fly (although the effect does exist, it is just not a large enough force to keep a plane up).

      Did you really mean to say the bit in parenthesis? The net force on the wing is certainly the reason the airplane stays in the air, which is in turn the result of integrating the vertical pressure component over the surface of the wing. It can't be otherwise.

      I couldn't agree more that Bernoulli (and especially, the equal transit time fallacy) is a terrible explanation that condemns most people to having a poor intuition about aerodynamics. Any kid sticking his hand (or better yet, a flat blade) out the window of a moving car and noting how the force varies with angle of attack will have a better understanding and much cognitive dissonance when exposed to the equal transit time fallacy.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    19. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think building practises have a lot to do with how much damage the wind causes. I've experienced a tornado in Sweden (Krylbo, 1993). It was of Floridian proportions. Fortunatly its epicenter was a kilometer away from more inhabited areas (although it passed 20 meters from a farmers house and completely sucked up an old barn 6 meters from the living house, they saw what happened through the kitchen window).

      I was living in a fourth floor appartment in the area of Krylbo closest to where the tornado passed by. There was much rubble flying by my windows: car wheels, a couple of balconies, a few roof tiles. In the street below you could se cars being dragged around by an invisible hand (but bicycles and vegetation was completely left alone, altough they got quite dirty).

      Practically no buildings had serious damages (one barn and quite a few balconies was sucked up) and only one person was killed/hurt (she was hit by a falling tree, several kilometers away from the epicenter). There was a few windows that was hit by things flying by, but as we use at least double panned windows as a standard in Sweden since more than 150 years, the outer glass took the hit and nothing serious happened, no glass shards inside the houses. All debris flew around the buildings, not directly towards them. Miraculously the tornado stoped e few meters from a heavily trafficated railroad (making a 80 meters wide gate through the woods).

      Tornados are rare in Sweden. But we do have cold an rough weather and we do build (or used to before the 80's) with that in mind. The angle and spaces between houses, even small houses, are important to get tolerable wind forces for people outside. The roofs are built to withstand tonnes of snow or rain and rough wind (the angles of the roofs being the most important factor), the walls are thick and consist of many layers et.c.

      Then you look at those flimsy houses outside Scandinavia, especially small one-family-houses. Lots of procursions, stupid angles. Wafer-thin walls and windows with few layers. And to top it, lot of loose, sharp and hard, objects carelessly left on the ground that would be blown away by normal weather in most of Sweden most of the year. And that includes parts of the world were tornados and hurricans are common.

    20. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " probably due to it being taught badly in schools" - hmmmm.... Maybe you should get your teaching certificate and help fix that problem.

    21. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      can != does.

      While it's true you can get lift from a flat tilted wing, an aerofoil gives lift even when it's not tilted.

      A flat wing will cause eddies at the leading and trailing edges causing more drag for a given amount of list. It probably makes it more likely to stall.

      Leave aside specialised stunt planes, and it's true that the planes most people will have seen and flown on do indeed get their lift from the shape of the wing section. If I'm wrong, tell me which ariline or airforce uses these?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I am even less of an expert but I recall that when a big article about the coanda effect was posted here, I did a bunch of research and found lots of conflicting science about whether the coanda effect is sufficient itself to keep a plane aloft. So I am not helping to clear up the question at all, but I hope people believe the jury is still out anyway.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are, for the record, the most confident retard on slashdot. Your argument about symmetric airfoils is retarded for 1 reason. Your argument is valid only at 0 angle of attack (AOA) where the airstream is parallel to the chord. However, at any other AOA, the airflow is not incident to the leading edge, so from the air's perspective, one side of the wing has a different path length then the other side. The Coanda effect is, in all but the most extreme cases, small. It's very measurable, but only significant in a few aircraft designs; those in which the engine is built over the wing to utilize the coanda effect.

      For real world numbers, the AA-1B has, at max gross weight, has a wing loading: 14.9 lb/ft (about 75 kg/m), or about 1/10th of a pound per square inch. this is a very low pressure. If you tried, however, to create that pressure through "impact forces" or 1500lbs of thrust through a very small cross section of airflow off the trailing edge with the coanda affect, the drag and aerodynamic losses would be insane.

      In other words, you are an ignorant fuck. Yes, I am an engineer and you're not.

    24. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by bgalehouse · · Score: 1
      If you talk to somebody who has taken a real fluid dynamics/aerodynamics course the situation is understood, but confused questions can lead to confused answers. The Bernoulli "effect" is a relationship between speed and pressure. And yes, the pressure on various top parts of a wing will be lower than the pressure on various bottom parts, and yes the relationship (mostly) holds, and so this means that there is more speed on the top part. However, this is also true for the thin curved fan blades, paper airplanes and maple leaves. The question that you should ask is "Why is the speed and pressure different between the top and the bottom of the wing?". The Bernoulli effect does not provide an answer to this question. The equal transit time fallacy purports to answer this question but does not come close to providing meaningful numbers.

      In fact, the actual answer to this question is complex. By analyzing the Navier-Stokes equation using technical concepts such as vorticity and big computers it is often possible to get reasonable numbers for actual lift. However, various limitations to these techniques mean that experimental tests are still an important part of designing aircraft.

    25. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Overunderrated · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is an issue that has been much debated, and to the best of my knowledge not yet firmly decided.

      No, it is not an issue that has been debated. The practical aerodynamics of airfoils is very well settled.

      If you have paid attention carefully when flying you may have noticed that a plane does not fly completely flat most of the time. There is a small angle between the planes wings and the direction of travel. Because air tends to follow the surface of the wing (sometimes called the Coanda effect) this means that the air gets deflected downwards by the wing. If the air accelerates down then by Newton's laws there is an equal and opposite force upwards on the plane generating lift so it can then fly.

      1) This has little to do with the Coanda effect. 2) While there is momentum imparted onto the lower surface of a wing at a positive angle of attack, pressure distributions along the surfaces dominate the behavior of the airfoil. Air is slowing down when it follows the lower surface of a flat plate, and speeds up along the top, which gives (gasp) a pressure differential.

    26. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Overunderrated · · Score: 1

      In other words, you are an ignorant fuck. Yes, I am an engineer and you're not.

      Well put. Signed, The only other aerodynamicist on slashdot

    27. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Overunderrated · · Score: 2, Informative

      The reason for symmetrical wings on aerobatic aircraft is that they impede the flow even more and allow much greater control, at the expense of fuel efficiency.

      Wanted to clarify this. The reason for symmetric airfoils on fighter aircraft is that camber provides no additional lift (compared to a flat plate) in a supersonic flow. Lift coefficient is still linearly proportional to angle of attack at supersonic speeds. However, drag coefficients rise quadratically with increasing camber/thickness. Thus, supersonic fighters have very thin, very symmetric airfoils. http://books.google.com/books?id=woeqa4-a5EgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=anderson+compressible#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    28. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Depends on the speed really. For very slow flying planes (Wright Flyer and other prop driven planes), the traditional explanations hold to some degree, but for fast planes, down vectoring of air is dominant.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    29. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The two explanations are not as mutually exclusive as you think. For the most part they're describing the same phenomenon, as you find out if you apply Newton's third law to the pressure differential explanation and the gas laws and fluid dynamics to the deflection explanation.

    30. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, first of all, it isn't necessarily the FBC, because vast areas north of Orlando still haven't adopted the
      revised Miami-Dade Building Code (which was the one re-written after Andrew). Down here in Broward County
      (immediately to the north of Miami-Dade and south of Palm Beach County for the geographically-challenged),
      we use the M-D Building Code.

      The major issue, as the parent post indicates, is the methodology of roof tie-down. Our house was built in *1960*
      and passes the "new" (post-Andrew) criteria because back then, the builders built quality homes that were designed to last. Later
      on in that decade, and into the early 70's, builders got sloppy, and were out to make a quick buck. Hence, they
      scrimped on how they tied the roof to the walls, and that was identified by the post-Andrew assessment as a major problem.

      BUT, in addition to that, the code also added criteria for missile damage as well, hence the specific criterion of a
      "2x4" travelling laterally at 100 mph. I just replaced my front door, garage door and two side doors on the garage this
      spring so as to meet that criterion. This resulted in a significant reduction in my windstorm insurance for the year.
      The shutters covering the windows also have to meet this criterion - a puncture ANYWHERE can, as other posts here have
      mentioned, cause a major wind pressure problem which can cause the rest of the openings to blow out and/or rip the roof off.

      Yes, flooding is also a concern - our house is not "on the water" per se, but the bottom of the driveway is a mere 8 feet
      above sea level and being less than a quarter-mile from the water... well, you get the idea...

      As a side note, in most, if not all, of Florida, the normal homeowners' insurance policy does NOT cover damage from winds -
      windstorm damage insurance is a separate policy altogether, and for certain areas (i.e., east of US 1 on the mainland), it
      could only be obtained from "Citizens", the state-underwritten insurer of last resort. (That's slowly changing, but remains
      a major issue). Significant discounts are available for homeowners who have rated shutters, compliant tie-downs and
      appropriate doors and have them inspected by a certified (i.e., a PE) third-party inspector who files a report directly with the insurer.
      Yes, the overall shape of the roof is also a big factor - ours is gabled, not hip, so our insurance is a bit higher. Having a new
      roof (meaning the covering material, not the house design) also helps. Some folks still have asphalt shingle roofs and pay dearly...

    31. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, these are just two different ways of describing the same thing. If you integrate the pressure difference around an airfoil due to the Bernoulli effect, you will come up with exactly the same forces on the wing as if you measure the change of momentum in the airstream that passes over it.

      The misunderstanding that arises is that this difference in flow is due solely to the larger distance accross the top of a wing and that the airstream has to meet again at the trailing edge. As you said, this wouldn't make sense, because many airfoils are symmetric. In wind tunnel tests, you can see that the air flowing over the top of a wing actually reaches the trailing edge far faster than the air on the bottom.

    32. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Tolkien · · Score: 1

      Houses will still get blown away, but the occupants will only have to worry about the floor dropping out from under them.

    33. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by thickdiick · · Score: 1

      Angle of attack determines the amount of lift generated. Lift is generated perpendicular to the angle of attack, therefore creating drag when your wings are angled. This is completely normal and reduces efficiency of the airplane, of course. That's why there's an optimal angle of attack for minimum fuel consumption, as well as a different angle of attack for maximum altitude gain in the shortest horizontal difference.

      Airplanes can fly upside down because their ailerons and elevators comprise a significant portion of the wing that they can change it's geometry based on pilot input.

      What you said is incorrect, aside from the phenomenon of "ground effect," which increases lift when the aircraft is close to the ground because the air bounces off the ground and creates even higher pressure under the wing. Souce: Aerodynamics for naval aviators (http://www.amazon.com/Aerodynamics-Naval-Aviators-FAA-Handbooks/dp/156027140X) Source is algebra-based to be comprehendable by people other than aerospace engineers.

    34. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact during Hurricane Andrew they found that gable end roofs performed far worse than hip roofs. This is partly because the wind has more to push against on the gable end. Part of the issue is that until recently roofs were not well
      fastened to houses, just some nails. If you use metal straps that will hold the roof on the house much better. (Called Hurricane Clips). We are talking a few hundred dollars for a new house for these, but they are not required in tornado country to protect against f0 and f1 tornado winds. (For F5 you need a grain silo see Greensburg KS, where the only thing left standing was the silo at the grain elevator)

    35. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rubbish.

      Please tell me, what effect deflects this air downwards? A pressure perhaps?
      It all goes hand in hand, like pretty much everything in physics. Calculate it how you want, deflected momentum or pressure distribution and you'll get the same answer because you're really just looking at the same thing from a different POV.

      Symmetric airfoils prove nothing. The require an angle of attack relative the the chordline which makes the situation non symmetric (and less efficient than an airfoil tailored to provide lift in one direction). A non symmetric airfoil often does too, at lower speed. At high speed a negative aoa can be necessary to limit lift.

      So how about you go learn your stuff first.

    36. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by calidoscope · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that the water table is far enough below the surface to allow for a basement. I recall that the water table in parts of Florida is only two feet below the surface (and something similar for New Orleans).

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    37. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boy am I sick of correcting fallacies on this one.

      The coanda effect is ONLY happens when associated with nozzles such as a jet engine, it simply has NO relevance to wings in free flow at all.

      In the past the airfoil was desigened and then tested to see what pressures it produced.

      Wing profiles are designed these days by deciding the pressure distribution requirements
      and the profile is then calculated to produce those pressure distributions, using computer programs,
      the first of which was written By Prof Richard Eppler. His program has been used to design many sailplane airfoils, the performance of which matches real world tests almost exactly.

      Any respectable aerodynamics text from the last 50 years will confirm this.

      Ignoring supersonic flight. (Mach efects make this a completely different area.)

      Benoulli is the effect by which the lifting force is applied to the wing.

      Newtonian action and reaction means the wing pushes air downwards at positive angles of attack. A good airfoil does so efficiently (Ie produces the minimum drag in the speed range for which it is designed)

      There is no conflict between Newtonian and Benoulli, they describe different things. Benoulli allows the efficient transfer of newtonian forces to the wing.

      A symetrical airfoil will create more drag for a given co-efficient of lift than a cambered one correctly designed, within its speed range or low drag bucket as the symetrical foil must have a higher angle of attack to produce the same ammount of lift, an so produces more drag.

      Thats why we use cambered airfoills on subsonic aircraft.

      Where a lot of people go wrong is not understanding the stagnation point which occours at the leading edge. At this point the pressure is at its static maximum, and the air splits to pass above or below the wing subsequently. At all points until the trailing adge the pressure is less than static.

        Once the point of minimum pressure is reached the pressure starts to recover. At this point without carefull design laminar seperation can occour. At no stage do real world result contradict the simple Benoulli/Newton combination

      The stagnation point is directly related to angle of attack.

      Simply put a symetrical wing has a stagnation point at any positive angle of attack that
      in combination with upwash, always ensures that air travelling over the upper surface travels further and therefore creates a pressure difference ala Benoulli, regardless of which way up it is.

      Drag is accurately measured with a drag rake, by simply measuring the pressure distribution behind the wing, making suggestions that anything other than Benoulli and Newtonian forces ludicrous.

      It can help to think of the air around a wing as a captive vortex.

      This is well proven science, only disputed by internet fruit loops sadly confusing a simple process.

      Have a look at the linked photo below, it clearly shows the effect the plane has on the air passing over its wings.

      http://www.skysoaring.com/albums/gliderhumor/Box_This_Wake.jpg

    38. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but Aerobatic aircraft have symetrical airfoils so they can perform as well upside down as they do theright way up. It also helps rolls stay around the central axis, without "barrelling".

    39. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      I am too, now. Thanks.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    40. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by erple2 · · Score: 1

      The reason for symmetrical wings on aerobatic aircraft is that they impede the flow even more and allow much greater control, at the expense of fuel efficiency.

      Wanted to clarify this. The reason for symmetric airfoils on fighter aircraft is that camber provides no additional lift (compared to a flat plate) in a supersonic flow. Lift coefficient is still linearly proportional to angle of attack at supersonic speeds. However, drag coefficients rise quadratically with increasing camber/thickness. Thus, supersonic fighters have very thin, very symmetric airfoils.
      http://books.google.com/books?id=woeqa4-a5EgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=anderson+compressible#v=onepage&q=&f=false

      I think, sir, that you're talking a bit out of your ass. Supersonic fighters have thin airfoils for aerodynamic reasons but they are by no means required to be symmetrical. The F15 and F16 (both supersonic capable aircraft) have cambered airfoils. Drag increases as the square of the lift coefficient - camber increases the lift coefficient for a given angle of attack, and thus camber increases induced drag (the component of drag associated with lift).

      The reason stunt planes have symmetrical wings has to do with the fact that symmetric wings are more efficient when flying upside-down than a heavily cambered wing. That is a state that most other airplanes actively try to avoid. You get the same amount of lift out of the wing at the same angle of attacks. The reason why they're thick is because thicker wings allow you to delay stall. Since stunt planes fly slowly, you don't really have to worry about the efficiency of the wing. That and stunt planes are NOT optimized for aerodynamic efficiency - simply the ability to generate tons of lift quickly.

      Next time you cite one of Dr. Anderson's wonderful text books, please read it first.

    41. Re:Forget bombs, think hurricanes and tornados! by Overunderrated · · Score: 1

      Their airfoils are *barely* cambered, and the camber only exists to aid in subsonic flight. Try learning about aerodynamics outside of wikipedia. Point stands.

  8. Wallpaper anchored in demo by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, it certainly looks interesting, but in the video the wallpaper was anchored very securely at the top and bottom of the test wall. I'd like to see how it does with only the sticky backing of the product itself keeping it on the wall.

    --
    http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    1. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo by bistromath007 · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is meant to be installed with anchors. It would remain stuck to the wall and stop shrapnel fine without them, but when the wall bows, the tape would bow with it, causing a collapse. The anchors make the tape provide tension that keeps the wall up. Here's a video about the stuff that will clarify.

    2. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 1

      Informative indeed. That's a better video than the inhabitat web page, which leads one to believe you can just stick it on and keep a wrecking ball out of your living room.

      --
      http://www.rootstrikers.org/
    3. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then the question is why do you need a wall in the first place? It looks like the wallpaper by itself would be able to block wrecking balls or explosions if anchored.

    4. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo by cptdondo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is relatively old tech. 3M has been making a window film that's bomb proof for years. The problem is that the the window frame and the surrounding structure has to be able to take the load when the film is anchored to the frame.

      http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/WF/3MWindowFilms/Solutions/Government/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECFTDQGG44_nid=R14R9R3CBCbeT4DCJBL6BVgl

      Heck, two layers of ordinary mylar film stuck to a window are "bomb proof" - as long as you anchor them to something.

      As for the comments about structure - most commercial buildings today are steel frame with infill. That infill can be masonry or stud or prefab wall sheets. You can take out all of the infill and not hurt the structure. Heck, you can take out a lot of the structural pieces and the structure will still stand.

    5. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo by Tolkien · · Score: 1

      I saw what you mean, it's a shame they didn't make that realization because the product will suffer failures accordingly. Such a simple test case too.

    6. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      notice that the bricks almost all separated at the joints and cleanly in a horizontal line. Before I would accept this as legit I would want to confirm that a modern motar was used and was allowed to cure completely.

      I doubt this wall was built to code. I believe that brick walls intended to take any impact would be required to have some depth and rebar going through them. I suspect that I could kick the wall down with a few blows with my feet

    7. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or simply test the same configuration with commercial wallpaper as a control

  9. New department for demolitions firms by The+Rizz · · Score: 4, Funny

    I just have to love any product that will require a whole new type of work for the demolitions industry - wallpaper remover! Would the job title be Interior Undecorator, or Interior Dedecorator?

    1. Re:New department for demolitions firms by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Hehe ;-)

      Demolition needs to attack the structure. Actually, I think this is a good thing for stopping flying debris so blasting demolition crews won't have to put their own layer of "wallpaper" around the building to stop flying debris, thus making the demolition easier and cheaper ;-))

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    2. Re:New department for demolitions firms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God bless the Mexicans.

    3. Re:New department for demolitions firms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not simply Interior Corator?

    4. Re:New department for demolitions firms by hattig · · Score: 1

      The job would just require taking a stanley knife and cutting the wallplastickevlar to disengage it from the floor/ceiling anchors that provide the tensile strength for the product to work effectively.

      In a unionised industry that would be a valid job of course, requiring "knife use" qualifications and job protection.

      In the real world, it'll take five minutes to make a room suitable for demolition.

    5. Re:New department for demolitions firms by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

      Interior Dedecorator

      And if you were removing the wallpaper from a 12-sided room, would that make you an Interior Dedecordodecahedronator?

  10. Discovery channel beat them to it. by WarJolt · · Score: 4, Informative
  11. Desktop by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

    I'm going to use this as wallpaper for my desktop. Does that now make my computer bomb-proof?

    1. Re:Desktop by plague911 · · Score: 1

      Yes this actually going to be their main cash cow. Who else is going to protect us from the internet terrorists that are trolling around Slashdot. http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2008/05/12/hackers-can-turn-your-home-computer-into-a-bomb/

    2. Re:Desktop by plague911 · · Score: 1

      PS. I love how in the 90s people actually believed shit like that.... Im just waiting for the day when the south finally finds that old internet mime and they start freaking the hell out(Yes I am implying that southerns are 20 years behind and very gullible) .

    3. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I'm stating directly that you cannot spell, and should shut the fuck up.

    4. Re:Desktop by MeatBag+PussRocket · · Score: 1
      --
      i wage a holy war against the apostrophe.
    5. Re:Desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      internet.... mime?

      ITYM meme.

  12. Not a very scientific example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    1. There was no pressure (other than gravity) being exerted down on the wall. So yeah, the wall is going to buckle but not fall when a semi-strong cohesive surface is covering the entire back side. 2. They should have tested it against normal wallpaper (or cloth for that matter), not just NO wallpaper.

    1. Re:Not a very scientific example by CubicleView · · Score: 1

      From scientific experiments I carried out ~20 years ago I know that a small child can punch a hole through regular wallpaper. I'm not sure that's its necessary to continue scaling the experiment up beyond that.

  13. reality by ysth · · Score: 1

    Makes me think of proof glass or wardable paint from http://www.amazon.com/Sunshine-Robin-McKinley/dp/0425191788 I guess truth really is at least as strange as fiction.

  14. Bomb inside the building by paultwang · · Score: 1

    What will happen if the bomb is inside the building with this wallpaper? Where would the explosion go?

    1. Re:Bomb inside the building by HUKI365 · · Score: 1

      Energy = heat

    2. Re:Bomb inside the building by whitedsepdivine · · Score: 0

      Where would the explosion go?

      Don't worry your mom has been pretty good at handling my explosions.

    3. Re:Bomb inside the building by hattig · · Score: 1

      I would suspect that the people near the bomb would be dead in that situation.

      This product probably isn't designed for that use. Maybe it would reduce external shrapnel and protect bypassers.

  15. Ask Larry Niven... by happyslayer · · Score: 3, Funny

    Maybe in the next movie, Superman (or "LL") could put in an order for condoms made out of this material. After all, it would certainly solve a lot of problems.

    --
    Never confuse movement with action. --Hemingway
    1. Re:Ask Larry Niven... by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

      Oh this is just brilliant, good link,............

      Within her body there are still tens of millions of frustrated kryptonian sperm. The single egg is now too diffuse to be a target. The sperm scatter.
      They scatter without regard to what is in their path. They leave curved channels, microscopically small. Presently all will have found their way to the open air.
      That leaves LL with several million microscopic perforations all leading deep into her abdomen. Most of the channels will intersect one or more loops of intestine.
      Peritonitis is inevitable. LL becomes desperately ill.
      Meanwhile, tens of millions of sperm swarm in the air over Metropolis.

  16. Late news? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I have seen this demonstrated on television at least twice in the last year. Isn't it a bit late to be getting to Slashdot?

  17. Might not punch through, but... by macraig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... you don't have to punch through a wall to otherwise destroy it. Even if this stuff stops a wrecking ball from breaking through a brick wall, can you imagine what kind of a shattered mess it will be in after force of the impact? It will still have be rebuilt from the ground up. The video in TFA demonstrates that: if that block wall had been a load-bearing wall, whatever big weight it was supporting would probably still come crashing down.

    1. Re:Might not punch through, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually, you can punch a pretty big hole in a wall and not take down the side of a building. This sort of damage is visible in any war zone. Tech like this would greatly reduce the death and injury from debris. As a relatively minor benefit it would reduce the section that would have to be repaired, or in some cases be just enough reduction to keep the damage below what'll take down the side of the building immediately.

    2. Re:Might not punch through, but... by macraig · · Score: 1

      Watch that video again: the entire block wall ROCKS in reaction to the force of the impact. Now picture that rocking block wall with a load of many thousands of pounds sitting on it, pushing down from above; do you see why I'm skeptical? A vertical load placed on a wall that will be subjected to that abuse seems like a recipe for failure.

    3. Re:Might not punch through, but... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I doubt wrecking balls are what it's intended to stop, that just makes a handy demo. Think carful of explosives driven through the front wall, vs. stopped outside the wall. You still get a wrecked building but you're less likely to lose the people inside when the explosion is kept outside.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    4. Re:Might not punch through, but... by macraig · · Score: 1

      Even if the building still topples on them? I dunno. This company needs to demonstrate its effectiveness in less abstract scenarios than the one pictured in that video; it needs to show that the solution isn't just trading one form of catastrophe for another. It needs to demonstrate it with real car bombs against real buildings, not once but repeatedly in several variations. Otherwise all it has is good marketing but bad science.

    5. Re:Might not punch through, but... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Well, generally buildings don't fall down if you take out a single wall... I expect structural damage to the building might actually be greater in total (spreading forces likely to knock the whole thing off-plumb rather than just taking one wall out) but still probably beats having a carbomb arrive on your desk. And you've generally got more time to get out of a wobbly building than you do to get away from a detonation.

      Also, probably not so useful for defensive retrofitting as for either quick-and-dirty HQs where you're making do with what you find on the spot (ie. immediate risk reduction), or for brand new construction.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  18. Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is DEFINITELY what i'm putting on my desktop. Does it come in 1024x768?

  19. So by maitai · · Score: 1

    Looking at the video it looks like the "wallpaper" was supported at the top and the bottom by the rig used to hold the wall (and "wallpaper") in place. Making the "wallpaper" act more like a safety net catching a falling object than something reinforcing the wall itself.

    How well does it work when it's a wall bearing load instead of the rig bearing the load of the "wallpaper" and the impact?

  20. What! by Korbeau · · Score: 1

    How can a wallpaper displaying 3 bombs help against anything?

    Is it like the red ribbon, if I use this wallpaper I give money to peace soldiers or something?
    And is it available in a 1680x1050 resolution?

  21. Hurricane alley by Weaselmancer · · Score: 1

    This stuff needs to be put in the walls of the homes out in hurricane alley. Tactical considerations are nice of course, but in your day-to-day those people could probably use it more. Especially since every so often 2x4s doing 250+ mph are thrown at their homes.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
  22. Fire fighter survival.... by cantbeatL337 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a volunteer firefighter I see this is a horrible idea for being put in use in homes and offices. Im not sure how easily a firefighter will be able to get through the material. If a firefighter becomes lost or disoriented in a building during a fire, one tactic they can use is to find out where the nearest window is and if they can get to it easily. Sometimes they will need to go bust through an interior wall. With this wallpaper I think it would be near impossible to get through the wall which could lead to unnecessary deaths.

    1. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would be on exterior walls though, to protect from blasts/debris coming from the outside.

    2. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if you're aware, but many countries have lots of buildings that are basically brick or rock, including internal walls. Firefighters don't die more there than anywhere else.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    3. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by lastgoodnickname · · Score: 1

      Firefighters only die once, no matter where they are. Except if they are Cat Firefighters, I guess.

    4. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine some places would have this put on interior walls as well; places where you would expect a lot of gunfire, such as police stations, military bases, public schools, and post offices.

    5. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe because there's less fire there? Brick or rock is not very flammable, I'd imagine.

    6. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If it's made of kevlar, you can cut it with a sufficiently sharp knife. Stab and slice resistance is the big weakness of kevlar, which is why serious vests made of the stuff still include shock plates made of steel or titanium.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by cycler · · Score: 0

      Not to start any flame-wars or anything but I have noticed that walls in the US are _alot_ thinner than in Sweden. I guess there is a different tactics in firefighting because I haven't heard anything from my close cousins father-in-law when we have discussed firefighting. (He is a retired fire chief). My point is that with a different tactics this problem might be mitigated. (Given that the lining is fire-proof :) )

      /C

    8. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by hattig · · Score: 1

      I don't think this product is meant to protect against bullets. I'd suspect the brickwork it is attached to would do a better job of that.

      This enabled a wall to flex under blast pressure, instead of exploding inwards. It is meant to save the lives of people inside. It isn't going to protect the building - it may still need to be demolished. But the people will get a chance to escape. Indeed it might keep load bearing walls intact enough to continue to bear a load for minutes longer, thus saving lives.

    9. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by khallow · · Score: 1

      For a firefighter, I imagine there's a lot of things that are horrible ideas like gasoline stations, refineries, and hazmat (hazardous materials). The question isn't whether it's unusually dangerous for firefighters, but rather does it help more than it hurts. It's noteworthy that this substance is intended for use in situations where injury is likely (eg, explosions, large earthquakes) and people might die as a result of either being impossible to rescue in time or as a result of lethal situations spawned by the use of this substance.

    10. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It's attached to an exterior brick wall or concrete wall is special circumstances.
      http://xflexsystem.com/content.aspx?page=technology

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    11. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol had this issue in china, we had applied a security film to the windows of a house, the firefighters took an extra 15 min breaking through the windows to get into the house

    12. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by Steve+Hamlin · · Score: 1
      So we should purposely build houses with walls so thin that someone can run through them? How about a little cost-benefit perspective with relative probabilities in mind?

      Why, we should build STRONGER houses to keep cars from busting through the walls - that might happen, too. It would prevent someone from getting rundown while sitting on the sofa. You can never be too safe...

    13. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by nasch · · Score: 1

      I don't think you'd be putting this stuff on interior walls, would you?

    14. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to my scissors which the lightest kevlar cloth blunts within 6 inches of cutting.

      ONLY diamond shears keep thier edge for any length of time when cutting kevlar.

    15. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      ONLY diamond shears keep thier edge for any length of time when cutting kevlar.

      Okay, I try not to feed the trolls, but you're probably just stupid. The knife doesn't have to keep an edge for any significant length of time. Just long enough to get in the door. So what if you can only use a $20 folding knife once? It's served its purpose. Use once and discard.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Fire fighter survival.... by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      If it's made of kevlar, you can cut it with a sufficiently sharp knife.

      Or, in this case, a firefighter’s axe.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  23. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo && not load by j-stroy · · Score: 1

    The wall does not have a load on it, otherwise I think it would fully collapse afterwards. Requires structural framing to work.

    kind of an inside out airbag.

    Wonder how a vehicle with this as a tensile skin would crash test? The body would become a safety cocoon.

  24. Works Like A Charm by qpawn · · Score: 1

    The wallpaper doesn't let my video projector display Battlefield Earth.

  25. Embed in concrete by handy_vandal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about embedding kevlar-web in concrete? As a building technique generally. Earthquake resistance?

    --
    -kgj
    1. Re:Embed in concrete by jpmorgan · · Score: 1

      Technology like this is to retrofit buildings to resist bombings, not for new construction. Linings like this are expensive, but less expensive than rebuilding the wall. And if you ARE building a new wall from scratch, you wouldn't use masonry with a lining either, you'd use pretensioned concrete, which is impressively strong stuff.

    2. Re:Embed in concrete by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

      I'm picturing pretensioned concrete with embedded kevlar mesh, for extra kevlar-meshy goodness.

      --
      -kgj
    3. Re:Embed in concrete by srothroc · · Score: 1

      I may be wrong, but my inexpert impression was that earthquake-resistant buildings are made to sway/bend and that flexibility, not rigidity is desired in the construction...

    4. Re:Embed in concrete by Altreus · · Score: 1

      You said what I was thinking. But as someone above mentions, it would effectively trap people in if it were not good enough, since the rescue teams wouldn't be able to break it either.

      --
      74.117.115.116 32.97.110.111 116.104.101.114 32.80.101.114 108.32.104.97 99.107.101.114
    5. Re:Embed in concrete by khallow · · Score: 1

      They'd have to cut or just lift it as one massively heavy blob. Maybe some sort of water saw. There might already be some sort of lifting system that can push up a portion of a building.

    6. Re:Embed in concrete by structengineer · · Score: 1

      This is true. Flexibility gives you better energy dissipation. Rigidity gives much higher forces. Tall buildings >60ft are usually built to be surprisingly flexible so that the lateral forces at the foundation level aren't as bad.

    7. Re:Embed in concrete by structengineer · · Score: 1

      Nah, that's what the steel rebar is for. Plus, rebar is easier to work around. Externally bonded FRP stuff is good if you want to further beef up your wall. There's a building code under development (ACI 440) for such applications.

    8. Re:Embed in concrete by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

      Interesting, thx.

      --
      -kgj
  26. WHOOSH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MS Windows, moron

  27. Bomb PROOF may be over the top... by osu-neko · · Score: 1

    I think it might be better called "bomb resistant". Certainly a big enough bomb would go right through it. They make them into the megaton range these days...

    --
    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  28. Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So how will they, eventually, demolish buildings that have been wallpapered with this stuff?

    1. Re:Oops by lastgoodnickname · · Score: 1

      Using a wrecking ball wrapped in the stuff.

  29. What if by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 1

    an unstoppable cannon ball hits and unbreakable wall?

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
    1. Re:What if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The universe collapses and we no longer need LHC.

  30. Hmmmmm..... by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 1

    Now they can start on that 'Bomb Proof' school desk that my parents hear so much about when they were kids.....

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
  31. Felt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Felt was often used to stop arrows.
    In fact the Arabs were gobsmacked at how the Crusaders looked like pin cushions and still fought. I am amazed that the still fought in the heat of the Middle East in all that felt.

    Plate's weakness was concussion weapons (e.g., maces) You didn't generally pierce or slash someone in plate with a sword (Although with a long or recurved bow it was much easier to pierce). Instead you bashed them and caused internal injuries. The shockwaves traveled fairly well through the plate (although you had to expend energy deforming the plate)

    1. Re:Felt by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Plate's weakness was concussion weapons (e.g., maces) "

      I think if you do some research you will find that the overwhelming consensus of historians (and even that is a bit of an understatement) agree that it was the longbow that made plate armor obsolete.

      I'm just sayin'... you can look it up yourself.

    2. Re:Felt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      No I agree. Longbows made armoured knights obsolete.
      The Battle of Agincourt showed how effective longbows were vs plate.

      But in hand-to-hand combat, plate's weakness was a concussion weapon.

      And my original point in posting was that felt plus chain was sufficient to protect against most arrows.
      Sorry I came in in the middle of the argument.


      and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them. They shot at us with their great arbalists, wounding the Moslem horses and their riders. I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks.

    3. Re:Felt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gross

    4. Re:Felt by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Informative

      "But in hand-to-hand combat, plate's weakness was a concussion weapon."

      That's one of those "Yes, but..." things. It has to be taken in context. Yes, plate armor was vulnerable to "denting" weapons. If your armor was crushed around you, you could be disabled even if you were not particularly injured.

      But that has to be compared to the protection that mail armor offered against crushing weapons... which was virtually none. Your armor would not be crushed around you, you would just be crushed instead. So plate armor was still far superior in that sense.

    5. Re:Felt by rekenner · · Score: 1

      Right. And historians have never been wrong about medieval weaponry.
      I mean. This is why swords were *commonly thought* to weigh 40 pounds. No, I'm not kidding. Unless they were experts on the matter (And by that, I mean, has read fecthbucher and first hand accounts, which do still exist and bear me out), I'd be just as willing to call BS on them.

    6. Re:Felt by rekenner · · Score: 2, Informative

      Gaaaah, I covered the damn battle of Agincourt. Archery wasn't the main killing force in that fight. It was the field, that they rushed through despite it being a horrible situation and totally in favor of the English. Sure, archery killed, but it was more exhaustion and stupidity.

      Also: The best way to defeat a well armored foe was not an impact weapon - felt and padding under the maille and plate stopped most of the damage - but stuff like http://www.crazywolffarms.com/images/pollaxe_1_.jpg that bad boy. Polearms and short weapons. If you get a knight off his horse and stun him long enough to shove a dagger through his eyes, he's fucked.

    7. Re:Felt by rekenner · · Score: 2, Funny

      Also, really, as I said before... plate was invented after longbows. I mean. Really. Let that sink in. Longbow: ~1250AD. Plate? 1300s. Plate was the response to longbows in the arms race. Gaaaah.

    8. Re:Felt by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      I think if you do some research you will find that the overwhelming consensus of historians (and even that is a bit of an understatement) agree that it was the longbow that made plate armor obsolete.

      I'm just sayin'... you can look it up yourself.

      I did:

      Along with the greater ability of gunfire to penetrate plate armour, it was the amount of time needed to train longbowmen which eventually led to their being replaced by musketmen.

      ...

      Even very heavy draw longbows have trouble penetrating well made, tough steel plate armour, which was used increasingly after 1350. Armour of the Medieval eras was not proof against arrows until the specialized armour of the Italian city state mercenary companies.[24] Archery was ineffective against plate armour in the Battle of Neville's Cross (1346), the siege of Bergerac (1345), and the Battle of Poitiers (1356); such armour became available to European knights of fairly modest means by the late 1300s, though never to all soldiers in any army.

      So, it was gunfire which made plate armor obsolete, not longbows.

    9. Re:Felt by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      In fact the Arabs were gobsmacked at how the Crusaders looked like pin cushions and still fought. I am amazed that the still fought in the heat of the Middle East in all that felt.

      The arabs didn't use longbows. Their bows were intended for use from horseback and were relatively weak. There's a account of a Norman knight hit by an arrow from a Welsh longbow, it went through his armour, his leg, the saddle and killed his horse.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:Felt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that has to be compared to the protection that mail armor offered against crushing weapons... which was virtually none. Your armor would not be crushed around you, you would just be crushed instead. So plate armor was still far superior in that sense.

      Actually, mail armor provides significant protection against crushing weapons. Not exceptional, perhaps not even good, but still significant. The mail armor spreads the impact of the blow on an order of at least twice the impact area. Is it enough to save you? Probably not, that boneshattering blow is still going to incapacitate you, even if the armor prevented the broken bones part. So the general concept of plate > mail against crushing weapons is still good.

    11. Re:Felt by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yep, according to "Time team" their steel boots got stuck in the mud at Agincourt (like gum boots do), the English ranks were mostly wearing rags as shoes and could move more freely. Longbows were the WMD of the middle ages, especially when you had 10K archers all of whom could fire fast enought to keep 3 arrows in the air at once. Such a volley of arrows flying through the air is said to make a roar that could be heard for miles. As to wether they were effective against armour apparently that depended on what type of metal the amour and arrow heads were made of.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:Felt by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Let that sink in. Longbow: ~1250AD

      Longbows were around at least 100 years before that. Northallerton, 1138.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    13. Re:Felt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is Azincourt, not Agincourt.

    14. Re:Felt by Tanks*Guns · · Score: 1

      Hey, I can certify that my Warrior, while wearing plate armor gets usually cut down by Huntards and their arrows, *and* I have 450 Blacksmithing. Will roll a DK to test the effectiveness of that class wearing armor.

  32. Oscar Wilde by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oscar Wilde famously said "My wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. One of us has got to go". I'm thinking this could swing the odds.

  33. Wallpaper adhesive by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    A chain's only as strong as it's weakest link. So if this stuff is glued to the walls with anything less strong than it is, that adhesive will become the problem: not the bombproof wallpaper. Presumably "wallpaper" is the wrong term, too as this stuff would have to coat the floor and ceiling (and doors & windows) to be completely effective. Then what would you do if you lost your keys? Move house?

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Wallpaper adhesive by Yold · · Score: 1

      you can see in the video that the "wallpaper" is anchored to the floor and ceiling.

  34. If it keeps wrecking balls out, then, it can probably keep wrecking balls in. Hmmmmm

  35. twin towers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if only he twin towers would have been covered with it....

    1. Re:twin towers by whitedsepdivine · · Score: 0

      if only he twin towers would have been covered with it....

      The air planes weighing 187,700lbs travelling at 500mph would have just bounced off because of a single layer of kevlar.

  36. Quaint... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmm I always wanted to cover my house in those lovely victorian patterns. Now I can hold tea parties and casually talk about my bomb proof wallpaper... Oh, isn't that lovely? Yes, yes it is indeed, dear.

  37. Depends how it's built... by Bananatree3 · · Score: 1

    Design the building so the roof is supported by only interior walls and so there are multiple load points, and you have a much better chance of it staying up.

    1. Re:Depends how it's built... by tabrnaker · · Score: 1
      Or simply add a stressed skin roof that supports itself. Or build a dome and not have to worry about any of it.

      Then again, that would totally do away with western architecture... probably a good thing!

    2. Re:Depends how it's built... by Bananatree3 · · Score: 1

      a dome laced with bomb-proof paint/wallpaper would be incredibly strong. Here's one company that builds inflatable concrete domes for all kinds of projects.

  38. something new for by stillpixel · · Score: 1

    High school chemistry labs? perhaps Hollywood can find a way to wrap their movies in it? Thank you! I'll be here all week! Try the adolescent bovine!

  39. Perfect for Dorm Rooms! by meerling · · Score: 1

    If you've seen the damage the average dorm-rat causes, you'd understand why I say it would be just the thing for the dorms.
    (Both College and Military) ;P

  40. Could be useful in Israel by Zachary+Kessin · · Score: 1

    Esp in areas like Sderot which has been subjected to years of rocket fire from Gaza. I'm sure making houses more bomb proof would go over quite well. I live in Israel but not in Sderot, we actually have a bomb shelter in our house, but we use it as a storage closet.

    --
    Erlang Developer and podcaster
    1. Re:Could be useful in Israel by BeardedChimp · · Score: 1

      Actually you've got something there except instead of protecting against bombs use it as shown in the video, by protecting homes against being destroyed by wrecking balls.

      The thousands of homes destroyed on the west bank in violation of UN law could have done with some of this wall paper. Though I don't know if even this stuff can stand up to the bulldozers Israel use against civilians.

    2. Re:Could be useful in Israel by superyooser · · Score: 1

      Whoa! Welcome back, Zack! Haven't seen you here in a long time.

      I'm glad you haven't had to use your bomb shelter, B"H.

  41. Someone has to ask ... by daveime · · Score: 1

    So why don't we just build the walls out of the same material ?

  42. Re:Idle? AYB. by Yoozer · · Score: 5, Funny

    But what happens when you put a roof on, and you set up the bomb?

    Well, that's obvious and it was explained all over the internet, several years ago.You have no chance to survive. Make your time.

  43. What I want to know is... by dzfoo · · Score: 1

    What I want to know is, if I install this wallpaper in my Windows workstation, would it prevent it from crashing?

            -dZ.

    --
    Carol vs. Ghost
    ...Can you save Christmas?
  44. Duck and cover by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah I said it. Duck and cover y'all.

    Cause you know that ain't gonna hurt you with yo magic wall.

  45. At last! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Safety for the fly on the wall.

  46. Video is useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While the product certainly has potential, the vids are totally useless. They're throwing a tiny wrecking ball against walls with very little height that support nothing else but their own weight?

    Wouldn't you expect that if the walls were actually supporting more weight, they'd crumble regardless of the X-Flex?

    This might be useful to stop debris fragments and such, but the wall itself will crumble in most cases...

  47. Re:Now just need a bomb-proof wallpaper for window by Dan541 · · Score: 1

    Link doesn't work.

    Copy/Paste = too much effort.

    --
    An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
  48. Re:Idle? AYB. by DrMrLordX · · Score: 3, Funny

    All your wallpaper are belong to us.

  49. I'm not yet convinced by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

    Can it withstand the force of a 3 year old with a pair of scissors, a mushy banana, and a sharpie?

    --
    Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
  50. smashlab anyone ? by tohands · · Score: 1

    smashlab anyone ? that show suck, but we did see something like this in that show 2 years ago.

  51. That pattern... by Tribbin · · Score: 1

    That pattern will be sooo 2012.

    --
    If you mod this up, your slashdot background will turn into a beautiful sunset!
  52. Go big or lose your wall by whitedsepdivine · · Score: 0

    I wish he had a video of using two layers. I am not sure that the material could directly handle the impact. But it seems if the developed a layer for the outside, and a layer for the inside you could have better results.

    1. Re:Go big or lose your wall by wish+bot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Come on guys - it's physics.

      This material is great in tension - that's it. If you 'bend' a material, the surface closest the the force goes into compression, and the surface away from the force goes into tension. How do you strengthen a wall? Increase the compressive strength of the surface closest outside, or increase the tensile strength of the surface on the inside. Put this stuff on the inside, smack the outside with a wreaking ball, and whatdoyouknow - the wall stands up.

      I'm not saying that this isn't cool, but it's not unique - thinking composite materials here. Laminated glass does this kind of thing easily for example, when using the right kinds of laminates.

      --
      lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
    2. Re:Go big or lose your wall by cowscows · · Score: 1

      It's not a terrible complicated idea, but at the same time, it's not something that's commonly done, most likely for reasons of cost. If they've managed to find a way to make this cheap enough to install that it could reasonably be considered for the average building, then that'd be something worth talking about.

      If it's reasonably cheap, it could find a good bit of commercial use.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    3. Re:Go big or lose your wall by Moryath · · Score: 1

      Not really likely. You smack the wall with any legitimate force and the glue holding it to the wall shatters or releases, and/or the structure holding the wall up shatters. For normal home construction (plywood frame with shitrock/drywall construction) congratulations, you just "increased the tensile strength" of something I used to use to draw on the sidewalk with.

      If they'd used a real wrecking ball, rather than a bowling-ball sized "representation", it would have done very little good. The wall is still severely damaged and in need of serious repair.

      Your example of laminated glass is the same way. The best example is a car windshield - get a baseball or a good-sized chunk of rock (gee thanks, asswipes who have to haul a dump-truck full of gravel or concrete rubble on the freeway and ruined my windshield) into your windshield and you may not have it hit you in the face or get a bunch of glass shards all over (which is the goal and is legitimate, same as this wallpaper) but you still have to repair the windshield afterwards.

    4. Re:Go big or lose your wall by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you can oput it up quickly and in mass quantity, and there aren'[t a lot of material this flexable. that you can do this with.

      You also need to increase the tensilt strenth enough to compensate for a blast, several times. While the prinicple isn't new, thie application is.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Go big or lose your wall by PiSkyHi · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to add that by strengthening tension, the stress is distributed a lot more evenly than the compression side, making fewer weak spots to tear through.

    6. Re:Go big or lose your wall by nasch · · Score: 1

      Come on guys - it's physics.

      Was there somebody suggesting otherwise?

      I'm not saying that this isn't cool, but it's not unique - thinking composite materials here.

      You know of another technology/product for cheaply (I assume), easily and quickly strengthening walls against things like tornado debris? By all means let us know. Otherwise, why are you sh***ing on this?

    7. Re:Go big or lose your wall by holmstar · · Score: 2, Informative

      The point isn't to prevent destruction (have to repair or replace) the wall. It is to save the lives of the people on the inside of the building. This "wallpaper" idea seems to do well at that specific task when used on brick/masonry walls.

    8. Re:Go big or lose your wall by wish+bot · · Score: 1

      I was replying to someone who was suggesting putting it on both sides of the wall, who was replying to someone saying ...all sorts of stuff...

      Anyway. I think it's unlikely that this would offer much protection in a tornado. Pressure differences between inside and outside are more likely to be the main problem - causing the roof to blow out which then brings down the walls regardless of what tricky wall paper you're using.

      I think this will work great in the application that TFA talks about - protection from bomb blasts.

      --
      lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
    9. Re:Go big or lose your wall by nasch · · Score: 1

      It's been posted already, but the Mythbusters were unable to find any difference in damage or wall or ceiling movement with windows open or closed. With windows open there would be no pressure difference inside and outside the house, so that would indicate that isn't what does the damage.

      It's certainly not a large scale scientific test, but it does at least cast doubt on the theory. I think the main problem really is blowing debris. Unless the wind is strong enough to literally blow down the wall (which it can be in a powerful tornado but isn't always), the debris is what's going to knock out windows and punch holes in walls, which then makes the house more vulnerable to further damage, and so on.

      If you can keep the outside walls from collapsing, the house may remain intact enough to provide protection to occupants against the flying debris, even if the walls do need to be replaced afterwards. For houses that don't already have a tornado shelter, it could be worthwhile, though maybe it would not be any cheaper than digging a shelter, I don't know.

    10. Re:Go big or lose your wall by jgs90 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. Obviously it will devastate what is replaceable...a house. However a person...well that's irreplaceable.

    11. Re:Go big or lose your wall by nevergleam · · Score: 1

      Precisely! If I were the company demonstrating the mesh, I'd put it on the front side as well-- at least that way they would get a confinement effect and the wall wouldn't be as traumatized. Those bricks have no gravity capacity in the state they are shown, even though the mesh on the back is preventing them from falling.

      This kind of material have been used in seismic retrofit for years, and if you, the audience, have enough idle time for a long story, you can read on to see why. For a long time, up until the 1994 Northridge earthquake, concrete columns in the US that were not part of a lateral force resisting system were designed to have just enough vertical and horizontal spiral steel (usually none at the beam-column joints) to resist their respective gravity demands. Look up 1994 Cal State Northridge Parking Garage on Google, and you'll see what happened to buildings with this kind of design.

      What happens is when a building moves laterally, the columns have to move to even if they aren't designed to dissipate the forces resuting from the building's lateral movement. Without the horizontal steel, the columns are not adequately "confined." When concrete is compressed, just like any other material, it wants to expand outward (not a desirable option with a brittle solid like concrete). Confinement resists these expansive forces and thus increases the compressive capacity of the concrete. When the structure above or below moves laterally, the column bends, and bending puts part of the column in compression and another in tension. Concrete has negligible tensile capacity, so the vertical steel is used to resist the tensile stress. Without confinement, the column's compressive capacity is lower than the tensile capacity of the steel. Concrete is brittle, and thus fractures, losing all of its strength. This is what happened to the Cal State Northridge Parking Structure; with the gravity system destroyed, the decks collapsed, and the walls fell inward with no diaphragm to support them. Had the columns adequate confinement, the column's compressive capacity would have exceeded its tensile capacity. Steel is ductile, and thus will elongate instead of fracturing, which will only occur at a much higher demand. Even with the steel straining, the column moving back and forth, and the thin layer of surface concrete spalling off, the confined portion of concrete within the steel stays intact, thus preserving the gravity system well enough to prevent collapse.

      Current design codes, inspired by the garage collapse as well as others throughout Los Angeles as a result of this event, require a certain amount of confining steel over the entire length of the column. With existing structures, this is not an option. Thin composite jackets, probably the same material as the product from the article, have been shown to be extremely effective when wrapped around unsatisfactory columns in providing confinement.

  53. Shrapnel usually isn't blunt... by bkr1_2k · · Score: 1

    Sounds great! Now they just have to figure out how to make all shrapnel blunt and this stuff will actually be worth the money put into it.

    --
    "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
  54. Chipotle away by whitedsepdivine · · Score: 0

    "Chipotle - away" not working for you any more either? They said it was bomb-proof not blood-proof sadly.

  55. Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    an unstoppable cannon ball hits and unbreakable wall?

    You would now have an unbreakable (and possibly unstoppable) wall flying in front of the unstoppable cannon ball.

    You didn't think that one through, did you.

    1. Re:Simple by tangelogee · · Score: 1

      an unstoppable cannon ball hits and unbreakable wall?

      You would now have an unbreakable (and possibly unstoppable) wall flying in front of the unstoppable cannon ball.

      You didn't think that one through, did you.

      So what if it is immovable?

    2. Re:Simple by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      Then whatever you attached it to will go along with it.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  56. missing the point by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

    I think the goal is to keep the wall up long enough for you to get out alive, not to maintain the building up to code in the event of a bomb blast or a tornado tossed automobile. The roof will still fall in, but it may take 5-15 min instead of 5-15 seconds. I live in Tornado Alley and if I buy a home in this area I'd definitely consider buying this for my home to increase my families chance of escape if a tornado hits our home.

    --
    Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    1. Re:missing the point by caluml · · Score: 1

      I live in Tornado Alley

      Don't you ever stop to think that perhaps living in areas known to be hit with natural disasters/extreme climates isn't the best idea?
      Earthquakes, volcanoes, tornados, hurricanes.
      There's a reason that only penguins live naturally in the Antarctica.

    2. Re:missing the point by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, many of the places that are the most natural-disaster-free have extreme climates. Maine, for example, never gets severe earthquakes or tornadoes, but gets a lot of snowfall.

      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
    3. Re:missing the point by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't you ever stop to think that perhaps living in areas known to be hit with natural disasters/extreme climates isn't the best idea?

      So exactly where on earth can you live where none of the following occur:

      • tornados
      • hurricanes
      • floods
      • wildfires
      • blizzards
      • sand storms
      • tsunamis
      • avalanches
      • mudslides
      • sinkholes
      • drought
      • volcanos
      • earthquakes
      • ice storms
      • extreme heat
      • extreme cold
    4. Re:missing the point by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      The south east gets hurricanes, the mid west gets tornadoes, the north east gets nor'easters (The Perfect Storm) and blizzards, and the west coast gets earthquakes and forest fires. Where exactly can one live in the US without being potentially exposed to natural disasters??

      I'm originally from the north east and live in the midwest for grad school. Someone needs to live here in order to grow all of the corn, soy, hogs and cattle that everyone everywhere else in the country eats. Don't go getting a chip on your shoulder because you don't happen to work in a profession that requires vast expanses of land for cultivation. 8 years in Indiana and I've never actually seen a tornado. We average 2 tornado sightings per year in my county and they've never come all that close to where I was at the time. My wife was born and raised here and she's only actually seen 1 tornado in almost 30 years and many I know have never seen one.

      If your aim was humor I apologize for my tone, but a lot of people seem to think there are tornados every week and that we can somehow grow everything we need without having people there to actually do the work.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    5. Re:missing the point by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      Fresno.

      It's not exciting, but it has no natural disasters worse than the occasional dust storm blowing up farmland over the city in high winds.

    6. Re:missing the point by Aging_Newbie · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the wall paper will provide little protection in tornado alley because:

      1. Ballistic 2 by 4's will still fly through your windows -- depending on your luck yours or the neighbor's flying glass will make all outside rooms uninhabitable if the tornado hits just right.
      2. The vacuum outside your house will still lift the roof off and then dump some of it into the house
      3. If it is more violent, the vacuum will still tear walls off the structure

      So ... when you look for a house be sure that you end up in one with:
      1. a windowless bathroom because small rooms in the center of the house are structurally much sounder than big ones and safer -- a walk-in closet in the middle of the house is OK too but the extra framing in most bathrooms makes them very sturdy. A bathroom in a basement may be optimum.
      2. a tub to provide even more protection for a child or two or a wife or other vulnerable human
      3. a basement that will permit you to build a a simple but sturdy shelter to keep falling debris and flying objects out
      4. a weather radio operating 24/7 in alarm mode to give you the extra seconds you need to take shelter
      5. failing all but 4, above, the place you live has a public shelter within easy reach when your alarm says scramble.

      Then, even though you want the fame of being a great videographer, don't pause on the way to the shelter to take pictures of the tornado you see advancing. That one is but a distraction to help the one that is dropping out of the sky just above you wipe you out.

    7. Re:missing the point by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      Pretty much none of those ever happen in the North West of England where I live. Floods are the closest, but I've never known a particularly bad one here and the most vulnerable areas can be avoided. In most places in the country, all of those would be considered rare events.

    8. Re:missing the point by Deosyne · · Score: 1

      I think that the War Nerd would argue that Fresno IS a natural disaster. ;)

    9. Re:missing the point by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Scotland. But then there are the Midges. So many, in fact, that they have a Midge Forecast!

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    10. Re:missing the point by sydb · · Score: 1

      You do get floods though!

      From today's BBC:

      "North-west England is facing downpours that will bring a month's rain in 36 hours, the BBC Weather Centre said.

      Flood watches are in place for the River Darwen at Higher Walton, the Ribble at Walton-le-Dale. "

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/8365898.stm

      --
      Yours Sincerely, Michael.
    11. Re:missing the point by NekSnappa · · Score: 1

      Hell, I live in the Mid-Atlantic region of the east coast and have seen more tornado's than my cousins who live in the panhandle of Texas.

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    12. Re:missing the point by pHus10n · · Score: 1

      Only on Slashdot does someone refer to Maine as an "extreme climate". I know it's cold outside your basement, but it's not that cold.

    13. Re:missing the point by phoenixwade · · Score: 1

      I live in Tornado Alley

      Don't you ever stop to think that perhaps living in areas known to be hit with natural disasters/extreme climates isn't the best idea?

      Earthquakes, volcanoes, tornados, hurricanes.

      There's a reason that only penguins live naturally in the Antarctica.

      Since there is literally no place on earth that is free from "Natural Disasters" of some sort and there are numerous reasons that living in a given local is advantageous, that was just a stupid remark.

        For example - "Tornado Ally" is right in the middle of the center of the richest, highest producing agricultural region of the US, perhaps world wide. Shutting all that down is plain silly, especially when there are easy ways to do what humans do best; that is, adapt to new conditions. These products are one of the ways we adapt.

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    14. Re:missing the point by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      I don't expect this stuff to make it acceptable to ignore the normal tornado precautions you've outlined above. I just think it would complement the current best-practices. I've driven past homes that were destroyed, not by the tornado itself, but by the nearby tree that it ripped up and threw at the house. In this kind of situation I would expect reinforced walls to be a real bonus. Either way, I'd still be in the basement/windowless room when the tornado hit.

      I'm actually amazed at the number of homes I've looked at that don't have a basement in Indiana. Most of the new homes are built on a concrete slab. The fact that they are anchored down to a cement slab is the only thing that makes them marginally more safe than a doublewide IMO.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    15. Re:missing the point by TheLink · · Score: 1

      I know. But of course I'm not going to tell you.

      Otherwise those places will have the unnatural disaster of "too many people"... :)

      --
    16. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple: Many places in Indiana, if you put a basement under a house, all you'd have would be an indoor swimming pool. Go look at some of the cornfields & houses around those cornfields after a good rain or snowmelt. Looks like houses on tiny islands in a large lake. Or houses submerged in a large lake.....

    17. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure you already know this, but the vacuum doesn't "lift" the roof or "tear" the walls. The higher pressure inside the house compared to the lower pressure outside causes these things. (It is a push from inside, not a phantom "pull" from outside).

    18. Re:missing the point by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      Yes, I just noticed that on the news and came to correct my previous post... wonderful timing, eh?

      I still say they're pretty rare and fairly mild in comparison to the mass destruction of earthquakes, tornadoes etc. in areas of the USA. Little loss of life.

    19. Re:missing the point by hitmark · · Score: 1

      snow is no problem, unless one just let it stack up in vital areas without moving it out of the way in a timely fashion...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    20. Re:missing the point by 228e2 · · Score: 1

      Detroit.

      Oh wait . . . . =\

      --
      Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
    21. Re:missing the point by Kattspya · · Score: 1

      Yeah sure, being exposed to the things on your list is purely binary. Either you are exposed or you're not. There's no such thing as frequency and severity...

    22. Re:missing the point by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Maryland doesn't have most of those, Blizzards and Ice Storms being the only ones on your list I can think of. Those however are handled pretty efficiently.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    23. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Southern Finland?

    24. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the most part, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I've lived here all my life and will never, ever move.

    25. Re:missing the point by holmstar · · Score: 1

      So where are we supposed to produce all of those crops that grow well in tornado alley? People have to live there if we intend to grow crops. And we don't really have a choice there.

    26. Re:missing the point by el3mentary · · Score: 1

      South East England, the worst we ever get are small floods and I live on a hill

      --
      I reject your reality and substitute my own.
    27. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you still have the NHS. That counts as a natural disaster, doesn't it?

    28. Re:missing the point by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Back in 2004, after third hurricane of the year in Fla, I found a natural disaster map of the U.S. with types of disasters and probability. Ended up moving to just east of Albuquerque, NM. The only thing mapped to where I'm at is minor chance of volcanism. I think I can live with that.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    29. Re:missing the point by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      That's an unnatural disaster.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    30. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Screw midges! Anybody know of a place that has minge forecasts? Awwwright!

    31. Re:missing the point by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Still it's relatively mild really, only buildings on low lying land are hit and even those that are hit usually just need cleaning up and refurnishing of the ground floor.

      I mean it sucks for those who were too stupid to make sure the house they bought wasn't on a flood plain but for the rest of us it's not really a huge deal.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    32. Re:missing the point by caluml · · Score: 1

      As others have said - the UK and Northern Europe.

    33. Re:missing the point by clone53421 · · Score: 1

      +½ Slightly Amusing

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    34. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4. a weather radio operating 24/7 in alarm mode to give you the extra seconds you need to take shelter

      Pfff. I just surf 4chan, I get most major news before it even breaks in the local media.

      Kinda not even kidding.

    35. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of Britain?

    36. Re:missing the point by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 1

      Except of the parts that are flooding due to torrential rain?

    37. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in Brazil! :D

    38. Re:missing the point by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Hmm looks like the 0.5 got rounded down.

      --
    39. Re:missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Detroit, Michigan. The only thing we have here are shootings.

  57. Demonstration very misleading... by gooneybird · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That demonstration is very misleading.

    Observe that the material is not actually fastened to the wall, rather is is anchored to the top of the wall and the bottom of the wall (look at the piece of angle iron in the demo)

    This angle iron also distributes the force across the material, without it, it would just rip out where it was anchored, such as if just screws were used to attach it. I would bet that that piece of angle iron is pretty well tightened...

    If it were truly fastened as wallpaper, then it may prevent the wall from shattering, however the wall would still collapse where the material stopped unless anchored (as in the demo). Hence, instead of pieces of a wall falling on you, the entire wall would just fall on you, probably killing you...

    And yes, the rest of the structure would still collapse on you as well.

    This is probably an advance, however it probably would require new structural building techniques, as well as additional steel anchors/angle iron for it to be truly effective. Not something joe public could ever afford, but I am sure governments could "find" the money.....

  58. resolution? by molecular · · Score: 1

    I hope they make a 1600x1200 version.

  59. Why is this news? It was last months PS or PM... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lazy reporting around here?

    If Pop Mechanics or Science can report it first.. Just fucking link it.

  60. Just make the walls out of this material? by Ogive17 · · Score: 1

    What if you just bypass drywall and bricks and other "skinning" materials and just put a sheet on each side of a wood frame, then insulate it.

    --
    "Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
    1. Re:Just make the walls out of this material? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That's eactly what I thought. Can this replace drywall?
      I'm not sure how you put a hole in it after it's been installed. Which may ot may not be an issue. Also, what temperature does it burn at?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  61. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo && not load by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 2, Informative

    It is certainly true that this wallpaper would not prevent structural collapse, but just because it does not solve every problem associated with a bomb blast does not mean that it isn't worthwhile! For starters, many of the walls in a given building are NOT load bearing in any way -- they could go away completed and the structure would be fine. Secondly, even load bearing walls will be able to sustain a certain amount of damage before caving completely. Even if this reduced the damage long enough for people to get outside before the building collapsed, we would be saving lives. Thirdly, one of the biggest dangers from a bomb blast comes not from the actual concussive force of the blast but from the huge amounts of shrapnel. This would effectively render the shrapnel a non-issue for the inhabitants of the room. So yes, this is not a perfect solution. If you put this up in a room, a bomb could still kill you. It will, however, drastically increase your odds in most scenarios.

    --
    To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
  62. Imagine the difficulties redecorating! by jggimi · · Score: 1

    And you thought the regular stuff was hard to steam off.

  63. Re:Wallpaper anchored in demo && not load by molecular · · Score: 1

    Wonder how a vehicle with this as a tensile skin would crash test? The body would become a safety cocoon.

    No, it would most likely be a deadly coffin. Crash zones in cars that absorb the impact energy are there for a reason, namely to keep you from decelerating too quickly and thus being harmed.

  64. transparency? by molecular · · Score: 1

    If it was transparent, maybe it could stop windows from crashing and finally make it a stable operating system.

  65. Nope! by nmg196 · · Score: 1

    -1, Wrong rather than +3 Insightful I'm afraid.
    Arrows go straight through body armour and chainmail (which is designed for protection against cuts from light swords). Arrows even go through modern bullet-proof jackets worn by police unless it contains a steel or titanium trauma plate in the middle (extremely rare). An arrow is around 20-60 times heavier than a bullet and usually much sharper. The overall energy of an arrow in flight may be less than that of a bullet but it's a better shape for piercing body armour (sharper) and made of a much harder metal than a traditional lead-based bullet, which tends to flatten or break up on impact with soft materials such as the energy dissipating layers of bullet proof vests.

  66. Mail isn't necessarily chain mail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mail isn't necessarily chain mail.

    Rossby excavation found an armour made of 320 plates stitched together under a tunic as a plate mail.

  67. Stop a wrecking ball, but... by HikingStick · · Score: 1

    Will it stand against a house full of toddlers?

    --
    I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  68. Popsci video by slaad · · Score: 1

    There was a writeup on this stuff in this (last?) month's Popular Science. They posted a video of a wrecking ball hitting brick walls with and without it on their website.

    http://www.popsci.com/bown/2009/video/video-bombproof-wallpaper-vs-wrecking-ball

    --


    ~Warning!~ The above is encrypted using rot676!
  69. Fucking dumb asses make some thing useful. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Just give me a Bomb Proof house so i can decorate my walls the way i want... Frankly bombproof Wall paper is like giving someone bullet proof pepto-bismal.

    "Well sir you see the bullet did not enter your stomach; unfortunately everything around it has been severely damaged. But at-least it worked."

  70. Bomb-proof is a two way street by chaircrusher · · Score: 1

    Bomb-proof wallpaper is great -- if the bomb goes off outside. If someone sets off a bomb INSIDE, it wll keep the force inside the room. Result? Soldier soup!

    1. Re:Bomb-proof is a two way street by geekoid · · Score: 1

      A bomb large enough for that to be a factor is going to result in soldier soup anyways.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Bomb-proof is a two way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A bomb large enough for that to be a factor is going to result in soldier soup anyways.

      Not necessarily, modern reconstructions of the event I linked to have shown would have been a substantial increase in the amount of fatal injuries (not just the intended target) if meeting had not been moved from a hardened bunker room without windows to a more standard office room with large windows.

  71. Re:Demonstration very misleading... by 0x537461746943 · · Score: 1

    I noticed that right away. I was looking at the wallpaper bounce away from the wall thinking why didn't the paper just fall off? You can see that it moves away from the wall(adhesive lets go). Sure enough it is secure at both ends. How many people secure their wallpaper at both ends with a metal bar? Thanks for bringing this up. Please mod parent up.

  72. How many layers would help against MOAB? by mi · · Score: 1

    How much of this stuff do the Iranians need to protect their nuclear facilities against the bunker-busting ordnance?

    Those "toys" can go through many feet of reinforced concrete — maybe, that material will now go the way of the CRT-monitors?..

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  73. Re:Demonstration very misleading... by geekoid · · Score: 1

    As did I . The reason they did it was so they could remove it from the wall so the could then smash the wall.

    Then I went to the web site:
    http://xflexsystem.com/content.aspx?page=technology
    and apparently it is supposed to be anchored and stuck the wall. However new building build with the will be safer from blasts.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  74. Oklahoma by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    Look at the damage done to buildings in terrorist attacks, the bomb is usually outside and blows the shell of the building in while the structure itself often survives.

    With the wallpaper, the outside shell would remain together, no shrapnel blasting in or collapsing on people. Outside walls in big buildings rarely carry a structural load.

    So this isn't meant to keep your house up against an earthquake or something, it really is what it says it is, supposed to stop the wall from collapsing from a bomb blast. NOT to keep it intact as a load bearing structure, but to keep it from doing damage to people inside.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  75. I Live By the Beach by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Living by beach sounds wonderful, until you realize that everything there has a 1/3rd useful utility span; and you get to pay for that too. So you buy the 50 year shingles, and the Treated Lumber, and Heavier Wiring. But the question remains. Can I paint this stuff? Can I work with this stuff? So what if it can make a Tornado ask, "Please?"; can it withstand the dust, and salt, combined with the moister of the ocean or the dry air of desert breezes?

  76. Wrong question by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Sure, it's bomb-proof, but what I really want to know is, is it kid-proof? I've got a child that has done several hundred dollars worth of drywall damage just be playing in the house...

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  77. Amanda Seyfried/Julianne Moore love scene? Check! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    > "...is so effective that a single layer can keep a wrecking ball from smashing through a brick wall, and a double
    > layer can stop blunt objects (i.e. a flying 2×4) from knocking down drywall. According to its designers, covering an
    > entire room takes less than an hour."

    "Congress has already had the Capital Building and its offices covered within a few days. Schools for children in Iraq should be covered within 15 years, according to schedule."

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  78. i.e. vs e.g. by amrittuladhar · · Score: 1

    This is as off-topic as you can get, but I can't stand it when people use "i.e." when they actually mean "e.g."--"can stop blunt objects (i.e. a flying 2×4)" makes it sound like a flying 2x4 is the only blunt object the author knows of. Lately, it's felt like a lost battle though.

  79. Re:Demonstration very misleading... by structengineer · · Score: 1

    Actually, there's a lot of testing for this kind of stuff going on in Civil/Structural Engineering right now. It's true that sometimes the bond between materials is the deciding factor for failure. With some of the newest epoxy and proper treatment of the wall beforehand you can avoid those issues, though. I do note that it says "Kevlar-like" material. I find it odd that that'd use Aramid fibers (what kevlar's made of) in such an application, since they have a moisture absorption problem. Glass Fibers are cheaper, but not as strong. Carbon Fibers would probably be more typical (despite their relatively high cost). The anchors at the top of the wall simulate a roof tie system. In an actual building, there's a lot that's helping hold it together. A live test of a carbon system (with actual explosion!) is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oYm_bNgBLY . No angle iron needed, just proper treatment of the wall and application of the materials. now some of the bond may not be alright after this . . . It may not hold up to multiple blasts. The idea is you take a hit and you get someone out to repair the structure as necessary. The point is this isn't just a gimmick or misleading. There is actual hard core R&D going on in the development of FRP (Fiber-reinforced polymer) materials as a retrofit or new construction material for exactly this purpose, to increase strength in otherwise weak and/or broken structures. (UCSD used to be pretty big in this arena, they have some crazy testing equipment including a blast test simulator).

  80. Bet Arthur Dent wish he had some of this! by Phucilage · · Score: 1

    The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy could have gone completely different with this stuff. Arthur Dent might have just slept through the demolition of his planet, or at least woken up to a large crashing sound, followed by a much larger crashing sound. Or perhaps it would've gone on mostly the same, except the bit about his house would never have happened!

  81. But could you imagine... by xtrafe · · Score: 1

    a wall made out of it?

  82. But the building collapses on top of you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    duh.

  83. High-tech not always needed, just 'Quake Safe' by Traf-O-Data-Hater · · Score: 1

    Why go for the high-tech solution? This link describes 'Quake Safe' which was developed by an engineering graduate http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s1794024.htm shows that simple bamboo and wire wrapping can protect buildings in earthquake zones, a lot of those being in Asia where bamboo is cheap and readily available.

  84. modern non-residential architecture by Alan+R+Light · · Score: 1

    You are correct that it wouldn't be much use in an American house. However keep in mind that modern commercial architecture generally eschews load bearing walls in favor of pylons (reinforced concrete columns, that is) with "curtain walls" of brick or other material.

    While houses in the USA are still built with 150 year old technology and load-bearing walls, most new public buildings in the USA are not - and thus this sort of protection could be quite useful. Modern architecture generally eschews load bearing walls in favor of pylons (reinforced concrete columns, that is) with "curtain walls" of brick or other material. A curtain wall giving way may even be an advantage in relieving some of the pressure from a blast, though how much of an advantage is open to debate.

    Of course, the protection would only be partial, but I can see how this might be useful in some places.

    Oversold as "bombproof wallpaper"? Of course. Useless? No.

  85. I don't get it. by Akir · · Score: 1

    How does this work better than pictures of half-naked girls already on my desktop?

  86. There are bombs and there are BOMBS! by Kennita · · Score: 1

    When I saw "Bomb-Proof", I was hoping for radiation and heat shielding. in the Bay Area, WMDs worry me more than conventional bombs.

  87. Bamboo by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    Interesting, thx. Further evidence that bamboo is a miracle plant.

    --
    -kgj
  88. Another use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should include this technology in garbage bags. No more messy floors after something poked through.

  89. misrepresentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Was i the only one to think that desktop wallpapers have advanced in leaps and bounds? Does any one us wallpaper any more?