Slashdot Mirror


Super-Earths Discovered Orbiting Nearby, Sun-Like Star

likuidkewl writes "Two super-earths, 5 and 7.5 times the size of our home, were found to be orbiting 61 Virginis a mere 28 light years away. 'These detections indicate that low-mass planets are quite common around nearby stars. The discovery of potentially habitable nearby worlds may be just a few years away,' said Steven Vogt, a professor of astronomy and astrophysics at UCSC. Among hundreds of our nearest stellar neighbors, 61 Vir stands out as being the most nearly similar to the Sun in terms of age, mass, and other essential properties."

242 comments

  1. But are they filled with Super Men? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if so, where do I get my kryptonite?

  2. mmmm by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 2, Funny

    61 virgins...... drool.....

    1. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Dream on, you're on Slashdot.

    2. Re:mmmm by Daimanta · · Score: 5, Informative

      How's that? I'm sure that it's possible to find at least 61 virgins on /. In fact, I think you are the right place if you're looking for virgins.

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
    3. Re:mmmm by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 3, Funny

      I never said I was straight.

      of course since it's the internet, I'm actually a 12/f/CA.

    4. Re:mmmm by TheEmpyrean · · Score: 5, Funny

      61 Virgins? Can I trade them for 8 slutty broads that know what they're doing?

    5. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the story about 72 Virgins may not be too far fetched after all!!!

    6. Re:mmmm by Kugrian · · Score: 5, Funny

      /me puts on his robe and wizard hat.

    7. Re:mmmm by PDX · · Score: 1

      Are there any websites dedicated to ending virginity of such blighted individuals? Many women refer to it as ending a drought.

    8. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      sure. the diseases are a free bonus.

    9. Re:mmmm by crhylove · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Please be quiet about all the virgins, next thing you know slashdot will be overrun with arabs packing high explosive!

      --
      I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
    10. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Else you could teach the virgins what you like and help them develop their own tastes, that way you quite literally have a hand-picked assortment of women that live by your will.

      Think outside the box next time.

    11. Re:mmmm by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      If you've got 61 virgins to trade, I'm sure someone on here could hook you up with 8 hookers in no time flat.

    12. Re:mmmm by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Funny

      Else you could teach the virgins what you like and help them develop their own tastes

      FWIW, the two major inputs to their tastes are diet and sanitary practices. I heard vegans taste better.

      (Just trying to think outside the box)

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    13. Re:mmmm by hedge49 · · Score: 1

      But virgin what?...sheep, vinyl, olive oil?

    14. Re:mmmm by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Honestly, I'm not sure how outside "the box" this thinking really is...

      --
      +1 Disagree
    15. Re:mmmm by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      What? Ewww... that's just gross.

      I was thinking of cannibalism. What the heck were you thinking of?!

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    16. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next poll should be virgin of 20, 30, 40, 50+ years, or not a virgin.

    17. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Long live Walter! - This is Jeff Dunham reference if I'm not mistaken.

    18. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Wait, you think oral sex is gross? I agree that clean people and vegans actually do taste better. It's a lot of fun, try it some time!

      Vagina. And. Penis. Licking. Good heavens, it's as natural and delicious as apple pie.

    19. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Virgin number one found.

    20. Re:mmmm by MyLongNickName · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      61 virgins? Last I checked there were around 1.6 million on this website alone.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    21. Re:mmmm by celle · · Score: 1

      "...right place if you're looking for virgins."

      Unfortunately they won't be young(upperteens/twentysomething) and female.

    22. Re:mmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You again!

    23. Re:mmmm by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      Vagina. And. Penis. Licking. Good heavens, it's as natural and delicious as apple pie.

      I think if nature had intended for us to be licking around there, she would not have put the snack bar so close to the outhouse. (not that it's ever stopped me)

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    24. Re:mmmm by BluBrick · · Score: 1

      Dream on, you're on Slashdot.

      Oh, that explains why I thought of Vir Cotto instead of virgins. (Own up, people - I know I can't be the only one!)

      --
      Ahh - My eye!
      The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
    25. Re:mmmm by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Walter is the cranky old codger.

      Achmed the Dead Terrorist may be who you're thinking of.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    26. Re:mmmm by waynedunham · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but Tiger has all the slutty broads right now.

    27. Re:mmmm by kick6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      61 Virgins? Can I trade them for 8 slutty broads that know what they're doing?

      I'll take a SINGLE slutty broad as long as she wants to sleep with ME. Everyone forgets that part.....

    28. Re:mmmm by branboom · · Score: 1

      I'm one, but i'm a guy... is that a problem?

  3. I don't know why I did, but... by HideyoshiJP · · Score: 0

    I read that as "...were found to be orbiting 61 Virginians..."

  4. Yes, nearby by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, a mere 28 light years away. So all we need to do is get in the fastest spacecraft we've ever built and we can be there in just about 150,000 years.

    Who's coming with me?!?!?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Yes, nearby by elysiuan · · Score: 1

      Not so much a problem for the folks on the spacecraft, relativity can make the journey very manageable for them. They better not think about returning home to see Grandma though...

    2. Re:Yes, nearby by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not so much a problem for the folks on the spacecraft, relativity can make the journey very manageable for them. They better not think about returning home to see Grandma though...

      So space will be colonized by people with dysfunctional families?

    3. Re:Yes, nearby by beefnog · · Score: 5, Funny

      What'd probably happen is about five years (as the travelers perceive it) after launch we'll develop faster-than-light travel and interrupt their journey. Or maybe just let them ride it out as a curious time capsule to cruise by and show buttcheek to.

    4. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What relativistic effects are you expecting at .0002c ?

    5. Re:Yes, nearby by jamesh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not so much a problem for the folks on the spacecraft, relativity can make the journey very manageable for them.

      I think we're a long way off building a spaceship that can achieve the speeds where that effect would make any difference.

    6. Re:Yes, nearby by jbezorg · · Score: 3, Funny

      So space will be colonized by people with dysfunctional families?

      Sorry folks, planet's closed. The six legged moose like creature out front should have told you.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    7. Re:Yes, nearby by beefnog · · Score: 1

      Quit thinking in terms of chemical rockets. Put something massive in orbit, then attach ion engines and say best of luck.

    8. Re:Yes, nearby by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      Sorry folks, planet's closed. The six legged moose like creature out front should have told you.

      We shall take this planet from Moose and Squirrel.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    9. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      At .0002c, it would take about 14000 years to get there, but the lucky astronauts would only experience 13999.99972 years. Sign me up!

    10. Re:Yes, nearby by roc97007 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why should space be any different?

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    11. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Get out and push' is always an option.

    12. Re:Yes, nearby by Judinous · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We aren't as far off as you think. What's important is being able to constantly accelerate during the journey. Slow and steady acceleration wins the race. You're not going to do that with a chemical rocket, but with an on-board nuclear reactor and a few advancements in ion propulsion or vacuum propellers, we could make the trip. We could easily launch a probe to start making the journey in the next five years, if we allocated the budget to do so. Humans could make the trip as well, given the right accommodations--only a few years would be passing on-board. None of the technology to do this is very far-fetched at all, but we just aren't willing to spend the money.

    13. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could build something to get there if we really wanted to:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel#Proposed_methods_of_interstellar_travel

      But trying explaining that to our Congress folk with their Law backgrounds without them laughing or killing it because "we still have people going into foreclosure!"

      I'm mean seriously... What's stopping us from building an anti-matter rocket? Nothing except for funding... In fact, we might have been able to make one with less money than we've spend on all of our wars in the past decade...

    14. Re:Yes, nearby by Columcille · · Score: 1

      "None of the technology to do this is very far-fetched at all, but we just aren't willing to spend the money." But what would be the point? There is something to be said for pure science but we can usually expect some sort of positive result even from science that lacks immediate application. But given relativistic effects, how long until any science comes home? By that point we may well have discovered anything the astronauts managed to find "out there".

      --
      I love my sig.
    15. Re:Yes, nearby by trickyrickb · · Score: 0

      My gut instinct is we will figure out how to put bodies into extended deepfreeze (and more importants get them out of it) well before we figure out how to get to relativistic speeds become an issue. I'd also bet that there would be no shortage of volunteers for a no going back, one way, first contact trip towards a promising star if such a technology were developed. Or perhaps post singularity, we will abandon our bodies and just all go there in a little tin can as per the excellent Creative Commons licensed story Accelerando, by Charles Stross: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/accelerando/

    16. Re:Yes, nearby by KalAl · · Score: 1

      I was fanatizing about sending a probe with such a propulsion system, but then I realized that to us on Earth the probe would still take a long-ass time to get there. And once it finally does, any data it collects would still take us 61 years to see.

      --
      I'd rather let a thousand guilty men go free than chase after them.
    17. Re:Yes, nearby by Chris+Daniel · · Score: 1

      Or, right now, we could build something propelled by nuclear explosions -- like the now-dead Project Orion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)

      --
      Don't blame me -- I voted for Roslin.
    18. Re:Yes, nearby by Judinous · · Score: 1

      That's true, but it could easily collect other data along the way. We could get some more interesting details about the outer reaches of our solar system than Voyager has provided, take pictures of parts of the sky that are obscured by other objects from our perspective, observe the CMB, etc. I'm sure that there's plenty of interesting things that we could come up with to have it do during the journey.

    19. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative

      Slow and steady acceleration wins the race. You're not going to do that with a chemical rocket, but with an on-board nuclear reactor and a few advancements in ion propulsion or vacuum propellers, we could make the trip. We could easily launch a probe to start making the journey in the next five years, if we allocated the budget to do so. Humans could make the trip as well, given the right accommodations--only a few years would be passing on-board.

      Not so few as you might think. At 0.01G, we're talking about 100 years as measured by clocks on the ship.

      If we define "a few years" as "five or less", we'd need about 1.5G constant boost to reach 61 Virgo in "a few years". Which, by the by, translates to a mass ratio of about 2700 if we're using a photon drive, or a number that's the next best thing to infinity if we're using any drive we can foresee in the next couple decades.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    20. Re:Yes, nearby by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      What about decelerating once we got there? That'd be kinda important, too. ;)

    21. Re:Yes, nearby by Judinous · · Score: 1

      It will be a long time until any of the science from the target planet comes home. It will almost immediately begin delivering useful data in the meantime, however. There are a lot of things to see on the way out of the solar system, and a lot of interesting data to be gathered during the journey.

    22. Re:Yes, nearby by khallow · · Score: 1

      Yes, a mere 28 light years away. So all we need to do is get in the fastest spacecraft we've ever built and we can be there in just about 150,000 years.

      I suggest we go faster than that. It'll only take me 18,000 years to properly pimp out my hardcore Diablo character. What am I going to do with the rest of the time?

    23. Re:Yes, nearby by AnotherUsername · · Score: 2, Funny

      No guidance systems? Interesting idea...

      --
      I don't like Linux. This doesn't make me a troll.
    24. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      No one wants to spend tons of money to send a group of people on a dangerous mission to a place that far away. Even if they survive, and assuming they can make it in their lifetimes due to relativistic effects, thousands of years will pass on Earth before we finally receive radio transmissions back from this team when they reach 61 Virginis. For all we know, during that time, someone will develop FTL technology. By the time the people inside reach their destination, they'd find an Earth colony or research station already there, would hitch a ride back home to Earth with the next FTL shuttle transport, it would be 3500CE and everyone they know would be long-dead and their mission probably forgotten about until their faces show up on the news: "Long-forgotten Earth mission to 61 Virginis found alive! News at 11" (translate this into whatever language is common 1500 years from now, probably some kind of blend of English and Mandarin).

    25. Re:Yes, nearby by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      I assume the goal of any long-range mission would be to scout and prepare planets for colonization. If the geniuses on earth manage to come up with a wormhole generator the scouts could be picked up by the fleet as it makes its way across the universe.

    26. Re:Yes, nearby by KitsuneSoftware · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately, it's a lot further off than you think. To accelerate to near the speed of light, regardless of the method, requires an enormous level of energy: for comparison, the space shuttle (68,000 kg) going at half the speed of light will have a kinetic energy of 9.455x10^20 joules. Again, for comparison, the total solar flux of the earth is about 1.75x10^17 watts, while total human power consumption is around 16x10^12 watts.

    27. Re:Yes, nearby by Penguinshit · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's no moon...

    28. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Diablo 2?

    29. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If we stick with only 1.0G, then we wouldn't need artificial gravity for the people on board. We could maintain 1.0G acceleration on the way there, then spin the ship around (so the floor is pointing towards the destination) and maintain 1.0G deceleration for the second half of the journey.

      The problem is, even if that means the people on board only experience 5-25 years, how much time will pass on Earth before we found out what this exploration team discovers there? (Remember, once they get there after however many years (hundreds? thousands?), they'd have to send their data by radio at light-speed, which would take yet another 28 years.) If we were to pony up the money to finance a mission like this, we, our children, our grandchildren, and our great-grandchildren would never find out the results, if any. We'd probably develop FTL in that time and have a colony already established on any viable planets in the 61 Virgo system before this team even arrived!

      As far as I'm concerned, the only way any mission to another star system at low sub-light speeds makes any sense is if you're going to launch a "generation ship", a giant ship with an entire colony on board with everything needed to be self-sustaining indefinitely, so that this ship can travel from star system to star system, radioing back what it finds in each one and continuing until they find a place worth stopping at and establishing a permanent colony. But a ship like this would in itself be a major leap in technology, since we certainly don't have the capability to build such a massive space-based structure that can travel long distances through space, be self-supporting indefinitely, and able to handle any problems it might encounter (micrometeors?).

    30. Re:Yes, nearby by Gospodin · · Score: 4, Informative

      That is an ion engine. My back-of-envelope calculations say that accelerating to .0002c and back to rest requires an Isp of about 5300 if you assume a mass ratio of 10:1. (Which is about as high as you can expect with current technology.) You can do a little better with staging, but not orders-of-magnitude better.

      If you can improve your Isp to, say, 50,000, which is well beyond current technology, then you could accelerate to almost 0.002c. Relativistic effects won't be really evident until well over 0.2c (at that speed it's only a 2% time dilation). We're not close to rockets that can attain such speeds.

      Improving the mass ratio is even less helpful, btw, since that's a logarithmic factor. An Isp of 50,000 with a mass ratio of 100 still only gets you to 0.004c. I suppose it's conceivable that an interstellar ship that needed almost no structure could have an extremely high mass ratio, but you can see how ridiculously high it has to be to matter.

      The only way we're going to send starships at relativistic speeds is to use (i) some form of non-rocket propulsion, like solar sails or those reactionless Casimir-effect thrusters or some other exotic method, (ii) something with a truly enormous Isp. Current ion engine tech tops out at about 30,000 s, and even nuclear pulse tops out at 100,000 s.

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    31. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Two things: money and time. Even with $1 trillion (the cost of the Iraq War) to spend on such a project, it would take some time to develop the necessary technologies, which are only theoretical at this point. Even with massive funding, it took almost a decade for the Apollo program to reach the moon, and at the point the program was begun, chemical-based rocket engines had already been invented, tested, developed, and used for numerous launches into space and for military purposes. You're talking about developing a totally different propulsion system, for which we don't have any prototypes to my knowledge. Of course, with lots of funding and commitment, it might only take a decade or two, but if we never get started we'll never get there.

      But I don't see it happening in the next century or so, because there simply isn't any will by the voters to make it happen. We're more interested in financing foreign wars, and bailing out large poorly-run corporations (no, it's not just the politicians that want this, we, the people want these things too, because we keep voting for politicians who do these things).

    32. Re:Yes, nearby by khallow · · Score: 1

      Is there another version of Diablo that has hardcore characters?

    33. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be more interesting to send them on a return trip to effectively travel thousands of years in the future.

    34. Re:Yes, nearby by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      "If we stick with only 1.0G, then we wouldn't need artificial gravity for the people on board."

      Considering their new home has five earth masses at the very least, they might as well get used to 5.0G. Ouch.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    35. Re:Yes, nearby by WheelDweller · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Compared to that, the Starbucks in Mississippi is "nearby" if you walk. I mean REALLY nearby.

      I'm kinda tired of the "like Earth" suggestions with 15G gravity, or oxygen with sulfuric acid or something.

      Guys...really...no place close. No place suitable. Space exploration is dead only on TV.

      --
      --- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
    36. Re:Yes, nearby by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Also, in another 10 years we'll be able to build a better probe that would probably overtake the one we sent now anyway...

    37. Re:Yes, nearby by jamesh · · Score: 1

      I'd also bet that there would be no shortage of volunteers for a no going back, one way, first contact trip

      I'd wonder that anyone who would volunteer for such a trip might not be mentally stable enough to qualify.

    38. Re:Yes, nearby by jamesh · · Score: 1

      Not so few as you might think. At 0.01G, we're talking about 100 years as measured by clocks on the ship.

      I think the bigger problem is that 10 years after we launch that one, technology will improve and we'll be able to send one at 0.02G, which will overtake the first one.

    39. Re:Yes, nearby by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Not so much a problem for the folks on the spacecraft, relativity can make the journey very manageable for them.

      Populate it with those /. virgins in the earlier thread and I think we have a winner.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    40. Re:Yes, nearby by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Funny

      for comparison, the space shuttle (68,000 kg) going at half the speed of light will have a kinetic energy of 9.455x10^20 joules. Again, for comparison, the total solar flux of the earth is about 1.75x10^17 watts, while total human power consumption is around 16x10^12 watts.

      Protip: for easy comparison of VLNs, make sure they are in the same units (although anyone on slashdot should know that 1 Joule is equal to one Watt-Second).

      But anyway, your numbers make the answer quite clear. We need a nuclear fusion reactor to propel our spacecraft, and it needs to have about 10,000 times the energy output of the sun. Quite doable. We know of stars with 100,000 times the energy output of the sun, we just need to harness one of those to the shuttle, shutter the front half of it, and we'll get plenty of energy pushing us forward.

      Now we only need to figure out a way to get to that 10,000x star.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    41. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If we stick with only 1.0G, then we wouldn't need artificial gravity for the people on board. We could maintain 1.0G acceleration on the way there, then spin the ship around (so the floor is pointing towards the destination) and maintain 1.0G deceleration for the second half of the journey.

      The problem is, even if that means the people on board only experience 5-25 years, how much time will pass on Earth before we found out what this exploration team discovers there? (Remember, once they get there after however many years (hundreds? thousands?), they'd have to send their data by radio at light-speed, which would take yet another 28 years.) If we were to pony up the money to finance a mission like this, we, our children, our grandchildren, and our great-grandchildren would never find out the results, if any. We'd probably develop FTL in that time and have a colony already established on any viable planets in the 61 Virgo system before this team even arrived!

      1G = 7 years internal time, 30 years as time is measured on Earth. So you'd be getting messages back with 60 years.

      0.01G = 100-odd years internal time, 107 years as time is measured on Earth. Messages back about 210 years after departure.

      Note that 1G sustained isn't going to be practical for a very long time, but that 0.01G sustained (for 100+ years) is a maybe within the century.

      Note that if we launched a 0.01G ship day after tomorrow, then sometime around 2185 we launched a 1G ship, the 1G ship would get there first.

      On the other hand, I don't think a generation ship is entirely beyond the realms of possibility within the next 50 years. Yes, it would require some incredible engineering to get it done. But it wouldn't require as much new technology as one might think - the sheer size allows you to get away with things that aren't practical in a smaller ship. Like lakes, fields, forests, that sort of thing.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    42. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      With 5.0g, I think they better prepare for a round-trip journey, as this is only going to be a sightseeing journey.

    43. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative

      "If we stick with only 1.0G, then we wouldn't need artificial gravity for the people on board."

      Considering their new home has five earth masses at the very least, they might as well get used to 5.0G. Ouch.

      Umm, no. Five Earth masses at the same density as Earth means about 1.7G.

      Double the density, and the planet pulls about 2.7G, but has stopped being Earthlike (density as high as silver?! ouch!).

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    44. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I don't know about that. You'd probably get some people who'd sign up for it, but it's a big gamble: spend a decade or two cooped up in a spaceship bored out of your mind (there's no internet out there), hoping to see something interesting at your destination. You probably won't find a nice, habitable world there to stay on, just some giant planet with 5g's of gravity, so you stick around a bit and take readings and photos, send them back to Earth by radio, wondering if anyone's still listening back there, then you turn the ship around and head home. Another decade or two later, you arrive home, and thousands of years have passed. With half your life gone, what are you coming home to? Everyone you know is dead (except your shipmates), so hopefully Earth circa 3500 is really nice so your retirement will be fun. But what if there was a giant war and all that's left when you get to Earth is radioactive ruins and cockroaches? Or worse, giant talking apes that hate you?

    45. Re:Yes, nearby by CecilPL · · Score: 1

      It doesn't really scale that way - you also have to take the density into account. The planet would likely have a larger radius, meaning you're higher up in the gravitational field when you stand on the surface.

      Consider that Mars has a mass around 10% of Earth's, but a surface gravity of nearly 0.4g.

      Hell, Uranus has a mass 14.5 times Earth's but surface gravity is still less than 1g. (As much as Uranus can be considered to have a "surface" as opposed to just a really thick atmosphere)

    46. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... or vacuum propellers, ...

      Tell me, how do these propellers work in a vacuum?

    47. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Note that 1G sustained isn't going to be practical for a very long time, but that 0.01G sustained (for 100+ years) is a maybe within the century.

      The problem here is that 1G sustained means your ship will be liveable by humans for those 7 years with no problem. 0.01G is not liveable at all; humans can't survive long-term in microgravity. Not only that, 100 years is too long; no one will live that long (assuming you launch them when they're 20-25). They could have kids along the way, but that's probably going to produce a failed mission, because the kids won't be trained for the mission, or have grown up in a normal society. Humans can't live their entire lives (including their all-important formative years) in a small spacecraft with little social interaction. A generation ship, however, could solve this problem (kids could very conceivably be raised on a giant ship with lakes and forests and a whole functioning mini-society), but as you said, this would require some incredible engineering. Lifting that much material into orbit really needs a space elevator, for starters. And this still doesn't address the gravity problem; those lakes and forests aren't going to work without artificial gravity. And I personally believe the invention of artificial gravity is going to go hand-in-hand with the invention of FTL drive, as I believe the fundamental nature of gravity and the speed of light are intertwined.

    48. Re:Yes, nearby by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      Who's coming with me?!?!? Sorry, I'm waiting for them to develop an even faster spacecraft. But don't worry -- I'll be there to greet you when you arrive!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    49. Re:Yes, nearby by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      Ummm, I think not? An ion engine provides tiny amounts of thrust. A VASIMR, the most efficient ionised propellent engine built so far, as a thrust of 0.5 netwons. The next gen one operates at 5x the power levels, so legs be generous and say that it gets 20 newtons of thrust somehow. They predict it will weigh about 1 tonne when finished. So lets assume that the ship, and the 1MW nuclear reactor to power it, weigh nothing. 20 newtons / 1 tonne = 0.02 m/s^2. To reach .1 c, still a crawl considering the previous poster wanted time dilation to make the decades long trip seem like nothing, you'd need to be thrusting for 50 years solid. (Well, and then consider that mass increase from relativity means it'll actually take longer than that, from Earth's perspective).

      Unfortunately, putting a ship, even on that's all engines, at near relativistic speeds is currently beyond us. Yes, ion engines have a huge specific impulse, meaning that the fuel requirement equations will converge much more quickly. But their thrust-to-mass ratio is tiny.

      OK, I take it back. I think a nuclear explosion driven ship might be able to do it. But that's no ion drive!

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    50. Re:Yes, nearby by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      We aren't as far off as you think. What's important is being able to constantly accelerate during the journey. Slow and steady acceleration wins the race. You're not going to do that with a chemical rocket, but with an on-board nuclear reactor and a few advancements in ion propulsion or vacuum propellers, we could make the trip. We could easily launch a probe to start making the journey in the next five years, if we allocated the budget to do so. Humans could make the trip as well, given the right accommodations--only a few years would be passing on-board.

      Just a "few advancements"? At the limits imposed by conservation of energy, a photon drive (of which a vacuum propeller is just a special case) requires on the order 300MW to produce 1N of thrust. So even if you had an outstandingly mass efficient nuclear plant with, say, a power-to-mass ratio of 1MW per metric ton (about what is projected by proponents of uranium hydride plants with a few more advancements), even if you ignore the mass of everything else on the ship (including the vacuum propellers, passengers, cargo, etc.) and the need to refuel the power plant, you could only acheive an acceleration of something like 3 microns per second^2, and would take on the order of 200 years to reach 0.001% of light speed (and cover only 0.1 light year of the 28 light year voyage in that time.)

      We are far from being able to build anything that could make the journey in any reasonable time, whether considering the time from the perspective of anyone on the ship, or from the perspective of anyone on Earth.

    51. Re:Yes, nearby by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      I hate every ape I see,
      From chimpan-A to chimpan-Z.
      No you'll never make a monkey out of me!
      Oh my god, I was wrong.
      It was Earth all along.
      You finally made a monkey
      Yes, we finally made a monkey
      Yes, you finally made a monkey out of me

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    52. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem here is that 1G sustained means your ship will be liveable by humans for those 7 years with no problem. 0.01G is not liveable at all; humans can't survive long-term in microgravity.

      And of course it would be impossible to spin the ship, right?

      Any ship big enough for a 100 year trip will be more than big enough to spin so that the rim of the ship experiences enough gravity to keep the crew healthy.

      Not only that, 100 years is too long; no one will live that long (assuming you launch them when they're 20-25).

      I take it you've never heard of the "generation ship" concept?

      Humans can't live their entire lives (including their all-important formative years) in a small spacecraft with little social interaction.

      And who ever suggested a small spacecraft? If I were designing it, it'd be 20 km long and 5-6 Km in diameter. With a crew of about 100,000.

      A generation ship, however, could solve this problem (kids could very conceivably be raised on a giant ship with lakes and forests and a whole functioning mini-society), but as you said, this would require some incredible engineering. Lifting that much material into orbit really needs a space elevator, for starters.

      So you DO know about generation ships! Great!

      Hint: you don't build a generation ship from Earth. You start with an asteroid, and stock pretty much everything except the lifeforms aboard from other sources than Earth.

      Note also that "incredible engineering" really means "expensive". It doesn't necessarily mean "difficult".

      And this still doesn't address the gravity problem; those lakes and forests aren't going to work without artificial gravity.

      Spin it. If it's six km in diameter, you have to spin it at 0.55 rpm to get 1G on the rim. And note that you have 360 km^2 worth of rim on the ship I described above. With a deck every 100 meters, we're talking a couple hundred thousand hectares at > 0.9G.

      Alas, the likelihood of humanity building a generation ship is miniscule.

      What passes for government here on Earth can't look far enough ahead. If we KNEW there was an alien species living there, and that they would be willing to give us the secret of FTL if only we sent someone there to collect, we'd still never get one built...

      But the only real difficulty with doing so is the drive - the lifesystem, the physical structure, that sort of thing is almost trivial in comparison.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    53. Re:Yes, nearby by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      Pebbles hurt at lightspeed.

    54. Re:Yes, nearby by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, I don't think a generation ship is entirely beyond the realms of possibility within the next 50 years. Yes, it would require some incredible engineering to get it done. But it wouldn't require as much new technology as one might think - the sheer size allows you to get away with things that aren't practical in a smaller ship. Like lakes, fields, forests, that sort of thing.

      A generation ship wouldn't just be an epic feat of engineering, it would be an epic feat of engineering that has no payoff for centuries (from the point of view of the population assigned to the ship, unless just being on the ship is a payoff for them) or millenia (from the point of view of the rest of the planet.) So, really, where is the huge investment going to come from? Epic engineering projects -- the Panama Canal, for instance -- do happen, but they happen because the people paying for them expect some substantial benefit that will start accruing in a reasonable time.

    55. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A generation ship wouldn't just be an epic feat of engineering, it would be an epic feat of engineering that has no payoff for centuries (from the point of view of the population assigned to the ship, unless just being on the ship is a payoff for them) or millenia (from the point of view of the rest of the planet.) So, really, where is the huge investment going to come from? Epic engineering projects -- the Panama Canal, for instance -- do happen, but they happen because the people paying for them expect some substantial benefit that will start accruing in a reasonable time.

      Yep. See my other comment, where I made rude comments about the likelihood of it ever being done.

      That said, one must consider AGW at some point. If we're going to successfully deal with maintaining the climate of the planet at some idealized level (note, by the way, that I don't think that that is either necessary or desirable, but many people do), then we'll have to develop societal structures that allow us to think in very long terms (centuries, at a minimum).

      Given that we develop such societal structures, the possibility of spending vast amounts of money with no payoff in sight for centuries becomes a lot more credible. After all, stopping AGW will require the expenditure of trillions of dollars, with no real benefit visible within the lifetime of any now alive.

      The potential payoff of a generation ship? Well, if it works, it removes the current limitation on the potential lifespan of humanity (the lifetime of the Sun). And if one of them can work, then we can build another, and another.

      Note that constructing one generation ship per millenium from every solar system with more than one billion population would be a relatively trivial undertaking, and would allow us to colonize every place in this galaxy within about half a million years.

      Which might sound like a long time, but homo heidelbergensis (what used to be called archaic homo sapiens) lasted longer than that, so there's not much reason to believe that homo sapiens can't survive that long.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    56. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Diablo 3.

    57. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      And of course it would be impossible to spin the ship, right?

      Any ship big enough for a 100 year trip will be more than big enough to spin so that the rim of the ship experiences enough gravity to keep the crew healthy.

      Whoops, forgot about that. It would need to be a fairly sizeable ship though, so the gravity at a person's head isn't noticeably different than the gravity at their feet (so a ship like the Discovery One in 2001 is out).

      And who ever suggested a small spacecraft? If I were designing it, it'd be 20 km long and 5-6 Km in diameter. With a crew of about 100,000.

      Now you're talking about something pretty far beyond our technology; we'd need a space elevator in place just to move the required materials into orbit.

      Hint: you don't build a generation ship from Earth. You start with an asteroid, and stock pretty much everything except the lifeforms aboard from other sources than Earth.

      That requires massive infrastructure: factories, mines, etc. To get to that point, you'll need to have bases on many places in the inner solar system, such as Mars, the Moon, etc. You can't just hollow out an asteroid and stick 100,000 people in it: you need buildings: schools, cafeterias, living quarters, etc. Starting with an asteroid doesn't even make much sense, except that it gives you a nice outer shell. Plus, it's have to be an enormous asteroid to be useful for a mission this size, with this many people inside; you're talking more like grabbing Phobos or Deimos out of their orbit and using them. Most asteroids aren't that large. Plus, we're nowhere near having the ability to go grab some asteroid and maneuver it wherever we want; that requires some very powerful engines.

      What passes for government here on Earth can't look far enough ahead. If we KNEW there was an alien species living there, and that they would be willing to give us the secret of FTL if only we sent someone there to collect, we'd still never get one built...

      Exactly right. Even if such a scenario were real, people would be sitting around saying "we don't need FTL", "the aliens are godless heathens", "we can't afford it; we need to finance this war instead", etc.

    58. Re:Yes, nearby by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Yes, a mere 28 light years away. So all we need to do is get in the fastest spacecraft we've ever built and we can be there in just about 150,000 years.

      Who's coming with me?!?!?

      Elwood: "It's 28 light-years to 61 Virginis, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses."

      Jake: "Hit it."

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    59. Re:Yes, nearby by flibuste · · Score: 1

      I had the same reaction when I read 28 light years. Please don't tempt me you insensitive clod.

    60. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh... the fastest spaceship ever built is way too small to carry all of the oxygen and other life support you'll need for 150,000 years.

      Oh... and then there's the problem of escaping the Earth's gravity well...

      And then when you arrive on this planet 28 light years away the gravity there will make you feel like you weigh 600 pounds. And then you don't even know if there's any water there when you arrive. Or any air. Or habitable temperatures (unlike e.g. Venus).

      After further review, Mars would be easier to colonize.

    61. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or we could build one that doesn't suck and do it in 0.357% as much time

      I'll grant it's still a multi-generational trip, but please know that the "fastest spacecraft we've ever built" and the fastest spacecraft we could have built 40 years ago are very far apart in terms of performance.

    62. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      That requires massive infrastructure: factories, mines, etc. To get to that point, you'll need to have bases on many places in the inner solar system, such as Mars, the Moon, etc.

      And since I'm all in favour of exploiting the other bodies in the solar system, that's just a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

      Which doesn't change the fact that most of what you need for the generation ship won't have ever have to come within a lightsecond of Earth. Realistically (even when we stretch "realistically" as far as building a starship in the 21st Century), building the ship from parts shipped up from Earth wouldn't be practical even if we had a Beanstalk. The beanstalk would just make it easier to build the off-planet infrastructure required to actually build the ship.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    63. Re:Yes, nearby by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Funny

      No mention of warp drive? Please deposit your geek card into the nearest shreader.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    64. Re:Yes, nearby by bronney · · Score: 1

      Eww. I am not coming with you. Sorry.

    65. Re:Yes, nearby by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      a few advancements in ion propulsion or vacuum propellers,

      Although the vacuum propeller has actually been patented, according to Wikipedia, it doesn't really exist. However, by following one of the external links, I get the impression it's right up there next to the Electric Universe in terms of generating useful information. That is, it's extraordinarily unlikely.

      None of the technology to do this is very far-fetched at all, but we just aren't willing to spend the money.

      Your hold on reality seems a tad weak. I'd strongly advise turning off the TV for a while and make sure you get outside on a regular basis.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    66. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Geek card? WTF? All registered geeks are chipped these days.

    67. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Humans can't live their entire lives (including their all-important formative years) in a small spacecraft with little social interaction

      What do you call slashdot?

    68. Re:Yes, nearby by cusco · · Score: 2, Funny

      My chip stopped working a couple days after I started playing around with that old radar set I found at the junk store . . .

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    69. Re:Yes, nearby by Mycroft_VIII · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You wouldn't lift the whole mass of a generation ship from Earth, In fact the main mass would likely be a modified asteroid.
            You need an asteroid of about the right composition and size/shape.
      Drill a hole down the center long ways and fill with mostly water and cap the end, then set spinning and focus sunlight on it with big mirrors. After a bit it gets hot and soft as the water inside boils providing the pressure to expand the now soft asteroid.
              There is a lot of fine tuning involved, but you wind up with a miles long and wide cylinder that's hollow and spinning(living space and artificial grav), just ad atmosphere and equipment and colonist and propulsion.

      Mycroft

      --
      https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
    70. Re:Yes, nearby by genner · · Score: 1

      I hate every ape I see, From chimpan-A to chimpan-Z. No you'll never make a monkey out of me! Oh my god, I was wrong. It was Earth all along. You finally made a monkey Yes, we finally made a monkey Yes, you finally made a monkey out of me

      I love you Dr Zaius!

    71. Re:Yes, nearby by Per+Wigren · · Score: 1

      It's only a couple of days at warp 6.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    72. Re:Yes, nearby by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Any ship big enough for a 100 year trip will be more than big enough to spin so that the rim of the ship experiences enough gravity to keep the crew healthy.

      I almost hate to do this, but the phrase you're looking for is "centripetal acceleration" - spinning does not create gravity, though I concede that it will look and feel almost exactly the same to the inhabitants.

      Sorry, I'm an ex physics nerd and full-time pedant.

    73. Re:Yes, nearby by AGMW · · Score: 1

      ... if that means the people on board only experience 5-25 years, how much time will pass on Earth before we found out what this exploration team discovers there? (Remember, once they get there after however many years (hundreds? thousands?), they'd have to send their data by radio at light-speed, which would take yet another 28 years.) ...

      Er ... hang on ... so you reckon it might take 5 to 25 years (from their perspective) to get there, but hundreds of years as far as those left behind see it?

      Assuming 25 years to get there + the 28 years to send a Light Speed message back - hey, we'd get a message from them before they arrive!

      I don't get it! Surely their perspective of the time to get there must be longer than it would take light to get there if they are travelling at Sub Light speeds? Our perspective may well see it as even longer, but they can't get there in less time than light if they travel slower than light?

      Or maybe I need to pick up a Relativity Made Easy book ...

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    74. Re:Yes, nearby by AGMW · · Score: 1

      ... A generation ship, however, could solve this problem (kids could very conceivably be raised on a giant ship with lakes and forests and a whole functioning mini-society), but as you said, this would require some incredible engineering. Lifting that much material into orbit really needs a space elevator, for starters. And this still doesn't address the gravity problem; those lakes and forests aren't going to work without artificial gravity. And I personally believe the invention of artificial gravity is going to go hand-in-hand with the invention of FTL drive, as I believe the fundamental nature of gravity and the speed of light are intertwined.

      How about we pick a suitable asteroid and hollow the mother out enough to fit inside what we need to live, leaving the rest as "mass" to be ejected as propellant. How's about we set the thing rotating about a suitable axis to provide sufficient 1G habitable floors?

      The problem with such an endeavour is that it will be costly. Very costly. There are those who think that the window of opportunity for humans to do something like this is finite. At some point it will become political suicide to suggest we allow some people to starve/freeze/drown/fry/etc to use the money to build this Generation Ship. That point may not be too far in the future ... a couple of hundred years maybe? Maybe considerably sooner!

      So, if we don't start Now we may never be able to get off this rock!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    75. Re:Yes, nearby by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      Funny, but also pretty accurate: space colonists, especially the first waves, are likely to be people who don't much care what they leave behind, and have little to lose.

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    76. Re:Yes, nearby by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      No, really not.

      All self-contained propulsion systems (chemical, ion, nuclear pulse, fusion rocket,whatever)
      basically do the same job: convert part of the rest mass of the rocket into kinetic energy of the rocket (as seen from Earth).
      Then to stop you have to do the same job again, as seen from the frame of reference comoving with the rocket at top speed.

      To get to relativistic velocities, where you experience time dilation,
        you have to covert most of the rest mass into energy and efficiently transform all of that into KE.

      This rules out fission and even fusion as power sources. You have to use antimatter, and quite a lot of it (as a proportion of your launch mass).
      Nothing else is power- dense enough.

      Non self-contained systems are easier -- laser propelled light-sails; beam propelled magsails; gravity catapults.

    77. Re:Yes, nearby by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      I don't get it! Surely their perspective of the time to get there must be longer than it would take light to get there if they are travelling at Sub Light speeds? Our perspective may well see it as even longer, but they can't get there in less time than light if they travel slower than light?

      Or maybe I need to pick up a Relativity Made Easy book ...

      Maybe you do. From their perspective what their engines are doing is accelerating and then "squashing" the universe along the direction of thrust. They see 61 Virginis approaching them at almost light-speed, for most of the flight, but, in the middle, they measure the distance from the sun to 61V as significantly less than 28 ly. No one ever overtakes a light beam or sees anything else do so.

    78. Re:Yes, nearby by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      The units are appropriate. What this says is that to get the shuttle to that speed (assuming perfect efficiency) we need as much energy as all the sunlight that hits Earth in 10^4 seconds (about 3 hours). In other words, a lot, but not a completely silly amount.

      If we convert that energy to mass, we see that we need about 10^4 kg, ie about 5 tons of anti-matter and 5 tons of matter, somehow combined and used as propellant with perfect efficiency.

    79. Re:Yes, nearby by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't help much. Nuclear explosions aren't nearly powerful enough to get to relativistic velocities.

    80. Re:Yes, nearby by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Even accepting this, we run into the problem of how to stop once we get there. That would mean turning the ship around midway through the trip and accelerating the other way, which is going to slow that trip significantly.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    81. Re:Yes, nearby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, the starting point of this discussion was that technology to reach nearby stars is "not very far-fetched at all". I think we're squarely in the realm of science-fiction and skirting on the edge of magic-tech.

      Note also that "incredible engineering" really means "expensive". It doesn't necessarily mean "difficult".

      Going on a limb a bit here, but you're not an engineer, are you?

    82. Re:Yes, nearby by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think a generation ship is entirely beyond the realms of possibility within the next 50 years.

      The main problem with that kind of effort isn't the engineering, it's the motivation. Yes, it might be possible to build something like that within a century, but that would mean many trillions of $, the concerted efforts of thousands of scientists, the work of dozens of countries pumping a significant portion of their GDP into a cooperative effort, etc.

      Politically, that's pretty much impossible. You're never going to get that kind of effort without some sort of direct and real threat to humanity that absolutely requires a generation ship (like an earth destroying asteroid--the kind that would smash the planet to pieces, not just rip up the biosphere). And that's unlikely (even more unlikely that we would get enough advanced notice of such a threat to pull it off anyway).

      It's a nice dream, but it's still just science fiction. I personally doubt that any of us will ever live to even see man walk on another planet in our own solar system. Any hopes of crossing the almost inconceivably vast distances of interstellar space is just fantasy right now, and would probably require some pretty radical long-term technological advancements in a very distant future (assuming human technological progress continues to advance and we don't blow ourselves up in the meanwhile). Sadly, I think the era of such dreams of space has come to an end. Sputnik initiated a brief shining period when it seemed like anything was within reach, but that only lasted about 20 years before reality came crashing in and budgets got slashed.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    83. Re:Yes, nearby by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      10,000 times the energy output of the sun is "doable"?!?!? Not in this millennium, I'm afraid.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    84. Re:Yes, nearby by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Do we even have the math to do a close pass-by of something that far away? It's tricky enough just to get a probe down on Mars with any accuracy.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    85. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Going on a limb a bit here, but you're not an engineer, are you?

      Yes, actually I am, why?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    86. Re:Yes, nearby by edittard · · Score: 1

      No one wants to spend tons of money to send a group of people on a dangerous mission to a place that far away.

      Depends how dangerous - and which people you have in mind...

      --
      At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    87. Re:Yes, nearby by severn2j · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you built an generation ship that could last indefinitely, why bother landing on a planet at all? Everything you need is on the ship. Also, by the time you get to the planet, would your colonists even want to move to a planet? Considering they have spent generations on a ship, it may be that planetary living has become a very alien concept..

    88. Re:Yes, nearby by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I doubt anybody would get aboard without understanding the ramifications. People volunteer for much worse fates with far smaller reward (satisfaction and/or fame).

      Humanity will have to learn patience at some point if we're to outlive the Sun.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    89. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Well if you send a bunch of criminals, they're not going to accomplish anything useful on this expensive trip. If you want to get rid of some criminals, just line them up and shoot them like the Chinese do, and then send bills for the bullets to their families. (Of course, it'd help if we stopped making criminals out of people for possessing naturally-growing plants, and then letting dangerous murderers and rapists out of prison early to make room for the plant-users.)

    90. Re:Yes, nearby by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. Of course, that'd have to be one really nice generation ship if the people preferred to stay on it instead of moving to a planet. But there's one big problem with the generation ship: it's small. Even if you build it big enough for 100,000 people (not very big compared to a modern city), that's as big as it gets. What happens when people want to have more kids and grow? You need more space for that. Not only that, but so far, most human activities since the Industrial Revolution have required lots of resources, and generated lots of trash. The idea of 100% efficient recycling of resources is just a fantasy right now. If people on this spinning asteroid generation ship are going to do anything besides play computer games (such as building new things), they're going to need new materials, and that requires mining asteroids or living on a planet. In a nutshell, a human civilization can't grow, and becomes stagnant, without more space and resources.

      Then again, there's no telling what kind of planets (or forest moons) they'll find out there, if they'll find any suitable for human habitation, if they'll find ones with life already on them, etc. Maybe they'd have to terraform a suitable world (which would itself take generations).

      This certainly has turned into an interesting topic.

    91. Re:Yes, nearby by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      That's a good point. Of course, that'd have to be one really nice generation ship if the people preferred to stay on it instead of moving to a planet. But there's one big problem with the generation ship: it's small. Even if you build it big enough for 100,000 people (not very big compared to a modern city), that's as big as it gets. What happens when people want to have more kids and grow?

      Well, if they get to 61 Virgo and decide they don't want to get off the ship, they can just go park in a nearby asteroid belt, or near a reasonably small planet.

      Then, when the first ship gets a bit crowded, then you clone it - build another (minus the drive if you don't intend to be going anywhere with it). Repeat as needed.

      The asteroid belt in this solar system is large enough to have more than 1 million rocks more than one km in diameter. Every one of them could be turned into a 4000+ hectare habitat without even trying. Note "without even trying" is relative to the ability to build the generation ship in the first place, not relative to someone who has a hard time building a treehouse).

      When you add in the larger asteroids (thousands 10-100 km in diameter, about a hundred >100 km in diameter), the carrying capacity of our asteroid belt is well over a trillion people.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    92. Re:Yes, nearby by Columcille · · Score: 1

      "If the geniuses on earth manage to come up with a wormhole generator the scouts could be picked up by the fleet as it makes its way across the universe."

      And if that were to happen then any current mission would be irrelevant. If it does not happen then any current mission would be a waste. There is no viable space program to the stars if the best we can do reaches even the speed of light.

      --
      I love my sig.
    93. Re:Yes, nearby by turgid · · Score: 1

      Considering their new home has five earth masses at the very least, they might as well get used to 5.0G. Ouch.

      Not if it has a radius of 14300km (8950mi). Then it would be 1g.

    94. Re:Yes, nearby by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      So space will be colonized by people with dysfunctional families?

      That is practically certain - at least, for as long as the Earth is at least marginally inhabitable to "normal" families. While it is, only dysfunctional people (families or not) would want to leave the planet on such long, probably one-way, trips.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    95. Re:Yes, nearby by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      True enough, I was a bit quick there. But I still would not want to live under "merely" double gravity :-)

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  5. This is irrelevant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 6 months, Google will launch their own Super-Earth.

    1. Re:This is irrelevant by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it will be in Beta for a few light years... and you have to get invited first.

  6. fat by dumuzi · · Score: 2, Interesting
    A more massive Earth is no good, if I go there I will be hundreds of pounds (unless the planet's radii are more then 2.5 and 2.7 times greater then Earths). I want a smaller Earth to visit so my BMI calculation will no longer show me to be obese. Let me know when you find something with about 0.8 of Earths gravity.

    Some water would be nice too.

    1. Re:fat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      BMI calculates mass, not weight.

    2. Re:fat by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      That depends on the density of the planet.

      A core made of materials with lower density than liquid iron and nickel could be larger but of overall less mass. The result would be a bigger planet with the same or lower gravity.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    3. Re:fat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And hell of a lot more radiation.

    4. Re:fat by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      And it turns out I was right.

      http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1947868,00.html

      Astronomers were further able to estimate the planet's makeup by calculating its size, based on the amount of light that GJ 1214b blocked when it passed in front of its star, as well as its mass (6.6 times Earth's mass), based on the wobble in the wavelength of starlight caused by GJ 1214b's gravitational pull on its star. That analysis revealed the new planet's density: about one-third of Earth's.

      Of course the crushing atmospheric pressure would remain an issue...

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    5. Re:fat by dumuzi · · Score: 1
      If it has 6.6 times the mass and one third the density then the volume is 19.8 times greater and the radius is 2.7 times greater. As I stated in my post if the planets radius is 2.5 to 2.7 times greater (for a mass 5 to 7.5 times earth's mass respectively) then one would not weigh more there. I took the density into account origninally, but thanks for confirming my figures Syd.

      It turns out I would only weigh 200X0.902 = 180 lbs (by combining Newton's law of gravity with the equation for density in a proportionality statement you get Fg is proportional to 6.6/cuberoot(6.6/(1/3))squared = 0.902). I would then fall into the "healthy" range for BMI, so as soon as the first interstellar space ship is built sign me up Scotty.

      And in reply to the AC, WHO says "Body Mass Index (BMI) is a simple index of weight-for-height". Though they say mass, they use weight to calculate it.

  7. Fishy... by chocomilko · · Score: 3, Funny

    Hey! I thought it was supposed to be 70 Virginis.

    Something tells me that these astronomers are keeping Virginis 1 through 9 to themselves. Grab your torches and pitchforks, kids.

    1. Re:Fishy... by jornak · · Score: 0

      It's 72 virgins. Get it right.

    2. Re:Fishy... by Zantac69 · · Score: 1

      So what does that have to do with 72 trekie fan bois?

      --
      1331461 is only semiprime *sigh* Alas - I am just short of 1337.
    3. Re:Fishy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must've been some kind of tax on that......

    4. Re:Fishy... by Zocalo · · Score: 1

      They would be the virginis that are being talked about. Please try to keep up!

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    5. Re:Fishy... by Kratisto · · Score: 3, Funny

      You're mistaken. Virgins one through nine ARE the scientists.

      --
      Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
    6. Re:Fishy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Virgins one through nine ARE the scientists.

      Then I would like to be paired with 7 of 9. I always thought she was hot!

    7. Re:Fishy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was 72. but with the financial crisis, they had to lay off the surgeons specialized in hymen reconstruction.

    8. Re:Fishy... by bmxeroh · · Score: 1

      I was thinking the exact same thing as I was reading the above comments.

      --
      Central Ohio Home Theater Installation - The Theater People
  8. dissapointing by jocabergs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    High gravity + Close to its star = big fat, sweaty alien women.

      I'll get excited when we find a planet about 93 million miles away from its star, the proper solar light properties for blue skin and near earth gravity. I've always had a thing for blue skinned alien girls.

    1. Re:dissapointing by tekproxy2 · · Score: 1

      I should like to think that at least one planet with actual sexy blue-skinned aliens will be discovered precisely for that reason because that is a really, really good idea.

    2. Re:dissapointing by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      I for one, am a little nervous about meeting our flying, heat-vision-wielding overlords from Super-Earth.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    3. Re:dissapointing by rcamans · · Score: 1

      Oh, sure. Big, fat, sweaty alien women are about as close to a real date as you're going to get, buddy. Better jump on that wagon before it leaves town.

      --
      wake up and hold your nose
    4. Re:dissapointing by Locke2005 · · Score: 0

      I've always had a thing for blue skinned alien girls. I've always had a thing about not dating outside my own species. You do realize that chimpanzees are genetically much closer to us than any aliens could possibly be, don't you? You also realize that Star Trek is fiction, and that the inter-species relations that occurred were actually a metaphor for race relations here on Earth, don't you? If aliens landed here tomorrow, I suspect my first reaction definitely would NOT be "I'd hit that!"

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    5. Re:dissapointing by emjay88 · · Score: 1

      You do realize that chimpanzees are genetically much closer to us than any aliens could possibly be, don't you?

      Except by some amazing (read: impossible) fluke, you could substitute any known life form for "chimpanzees" in the above sentence.

      --
      1178161 is prime...
    6. Re:dissapointing by Whiternoise · · Score: 2, Funny

      Death by Snoo Snoo? "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised."

    7. Re:dissapointing by giltwist · · Score: 1

      So what would those conditions be? With light spectrum, you have two options, reflect it or absorb it.

      Plants are green given the relative energy and percentage of wavelengths in sunlight. In other words red is easy to absorb and there's lots of it. Similarly blue is hard to absorb, but there's not so much in our yellowish sunlight to warrant reflecting it. Green, though, it's sort of hard to digest and there's an AWFUL lot of it in our sunlight. Hence green leaves.

      So, blue aliens are likely to come from an inner planet of a blue dwarf system because they'd need to reflect all that harmful blue light. Although, I could see how aliens from a coldish planet around a red giant might be blue because blue would be the only color they don't have to bother absorbing.

    8. Re:dissapointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, blue aliens are likely to come from an inner planet of a blue dwarf system because they'd need to reflect all that harmful blue light.

      Right...we know this because all humans are a yellowish-white color...oh, wait...

      - T

    9. Re:dissapointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, higher gravity probably yields smaller animals. Strength is proportional to cross sectional area but mass proportional to volume, hence enlarged structures will collapse easier when made of similar materials. You might have something insect like instead.
      If there is a higher gas pressure, it could enable even larger animals to breathe without lungs though (or only have a simple circulation)... So maybe somewhat large insects and frogs.
      The high gravity would also mean short trees. And sorry, no giant mushrooms.

    10. Re:dissapointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always had a thing for blue skinned alien girls.

      This should be a happy week for you then.

    11. Re:dissapointing by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Plants are green given the relative energy and percentage of wavelengths in sunlight. In other words red is easy to absorb and there's lots of it. Similarly blue is hard to absorb, but there's not so much in our yellowish sunlight to warrant reflecting it. Green, though, it's sort of hard to digest and there's an AWFUL lot of it in our sunlight. Hence green leaves.

      We have green leaves, but your reasoning may not be completely correct.

      http://www.livescience.com/environment/070410_purple_earth.html

      If the planet has life, and is low in oxygen content, it might actually be purple.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    12. Re:dissapointing by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      I've always had a thing about not dating outside my own species. You do realize that chimpanzees are genetically much closer to us than any aliens could possibly be, don't you? You also realize that Star Trek is fiction, and that the inter-species relations that occurred were actually a metaphor for race relations here on Earth, don't you? If aliens landed here tomorrow, I suspect my first reaction definitely would NOT be "I'd hit that!"

      I'm not a geneticist, so bear with me here...

      You are saying you would rather have sex with a chimpanzee than an Orion Slave Girl?

      Dude, you are the last person that should be giving any kind of dating advice.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
  9. Wow, a confirmation by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 4, Informative

    Why is everyone surprised that super-earths are orbiting other stars? I've always wondered that.

    Anyway in case anyone hasn't RTFA (or noticed the light-gray on white links at the top of the oklo.com page) you yourself can help them search for nearby earths by downloading the tool at http://oklo.org/downloadable-console/ while you're still unemployed.

    1. Re:Wow, a confirmation by zill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why is everyone surprised that super-earths are orbiting other stars? I've always wondered that.

      Because the the term "super-earth" is intentionally used to misled the general public into thinking that those planets have a Earth-like habitat, which imply the possibility of colonization.

      If the title was instead "Heavier than Earth rocky planets found outside of the solar system" no one would read it.

    2. Re:Wow, a confirmation by Tynin · · Score: 1

      Why is everyone surprised that super-earths are orbiting other stars? I've always wondered that.

      I think it has to do with the fact that finding exo-planets, especially ones only a few times larger than our planet, is still something new. We've only been able to confirm extrsolar planets for 17 years, and it has only been in the last 5 years that we've been detecting anything even remotely as small as Earth. I agreed that as time goes on these will be less note worth, as we are getting better at detection, at least until we find something in the .8 to 2.0 Earth masses range which would be quite the news.

    3. Re:Wow, a confirmation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Shoot, it didn't work on me. I thought it was just a lot easier than saying "micro-jupiters" or super-duper-mars-es". It's not like they meant that the super-earths were super beautiful or super unspoiled. After all, they probably have super-hurricanes and super super-earthquakes.

    4. Re:Wow, a confirmation by TropicalCoder · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is nothing in the article to support the title, "First Super-Earths Discovered Orbiting Sun-Like Stars". First they say "These detections indicate that low-mass planets are quite common around nearby stars." and then later "The inner planet of the 61 Vir system is among the two or three lowest-amplitude planetary signals that have been identified with confidence". and finally, "The researchers said they cannot tell yet if HD 1461b is a scaled-up version of Earth, composed largely of rock and iron, or whether, like Uranus and Neptune, it is composed mostly of water."

      I don't see anything in the article to justify calling these planets "Super-Earths", which is a stupid term anyhow, since there is only one planet Earth and we are on it.

    5. Re:Wow, a confirmation by Stupid+McStupidson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      at least until we find something in the .8 to 2.0 Earth masses range which would be quite the news.

      Wake me up when you find a .8 to 1.2 Earth masses with oxygen and water.

    6. Re:Wow, a confirmation by OctaviusIII · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's surprise so much as it's excitement: "We always thought they were there, and now we know they're there! Friggin' awesome!" I imagine scientists having this reaction, typically followed by chest-bumps.

      --
      What's this? Another weblog? On transit?
    7. Re:Wow, a confirmation by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Because "micro-Jupiters" would be incorrect. A "Jupiter"-like planet is a gas giant. A "micro-Jupiter" would be a small gaseous planet. The planets they're finding now which everyone's so excited about are not gaseous at all, they're rocky, like Earth. Detecting rocky planets is still rather new (= 5 years); back when exoplanets were first detected, all they could detect were gas giants, usually even bigger than Jupiter. While that's interesting, it's not really something we could even think about sending humans to land on, for obvious reasons. A rocky planet is another matter entirely; if it developed like Earth, it could have liquid water, an atmosphere, maybe even be habitable. That's something very different from some big gas giant planet, which is really good for nothing (to us) except taking pretty photos of. You can't land on it, you can't terraform it, you can't mine it, the only thing you can do with it is send probes to it and learn about it for learning's sake, but that's it.

    8. Re:Wow, a confirmation by zill · · Score: 1

      Actually TFA doesn't say anything about the planets being rocky. Their size imply they're very likely rocky planets, but that has not been confirmed by observation.

    9. Re:Wow, a confirmation by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I could be mistaken, but I thought they were able to infer that they were probably rocky based on the size and density readings.

    10. Re:Wow, a confirmation by yobjob · · Score: 1

      I found something! I FOUND SOME.... ah shoot. Sorry, forgot to clean my monitor again.

    11. Re:Wow, a confirmation by sznupi · · Score: 1

      While big gas giant planets don't seem very useful to us (though - floating habitats? ;) ) or organic life generally, they might have moons offering similar environment to that of Earth.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    12. Re:Wow, a confirmation by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      That's true. But I suspect that once we can detect truly Earth-size exoplanets, we should be able to detect moons like that too.

    13. Re:Wow, a confirmation by sznupi · · Score: 1

      One doesn't mean the other automatically. For quite a while we will be detecting exoplanets primarily by slight movements of parent star or its occultation by the planet passing in front of it.

      I suspect the effects of Earth-like moons are likely to be drowned in the effects of their host planets; less pronounced than in the case of terrestrial planet in its own orbit.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  10. Super War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    I say it is high time we develop a warp ship capable of carrying the combined military might of the entire planet to this system.

    We'll move quickly, from one "Super" Earth to the next, conquering indigenous peoples and enslaving them to toil in our mines until the planet is naught but a smoldering husk, a shadow of what used to be.

    Then we'll see who is "Super".

    Who's with me!?!

    1. Re:Super War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You go, we'll stay here and keep the home fires burning.

    2. Re:Super War by Token_Internet_Girl · · Score: 1

      Hi my name is Warmaster Horus, I have an army of super humans at your disposal sir.

      --
      Sure baby, I'll give you my phone number...in Hex
    3. Re:Super War by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You guys can all go ahead without me.

      I'll stay behind, change my name to "Omega Man" and take care of all the ladies here on earth.
      Make love, not war.

    4. Re:Super War by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Ha, obviously you have no idea of the might of the aliens and their many advancements in anal probe technology!

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  11. 28 light years by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yes, a mere 28 light years away. So all we need to do is get in the fastest spacecraft we've ever built and we can be there in just about 150,000 years.

    Well, maybe not us, but bacteria could. Or... maybe bacteria came from there, and landed here. Betcha didn't think of that.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:28 light years by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bet that bacteria did not think about that either.

      You know... cause they’re bacteria! ^^

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    2. Re:28 light years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh sure, so you are telling me that some 150k years ago bacteria had the tech and political will to launch an intergalactic mission to explore strange new worlds? And if so, why don't we see any evidence of these great astronaut bacteria today? Did they all slowly devolved into the plain old slimy if often goo-y bacteria that are now present on Earth? Why wouldn't their be at least some bacteria walking around, if a little slow, showing the great lineage of the astronaut bacteria. I posit that if this is the case we should be able to find evidence of our former Bacteria Astronaut Overlords, however since that has not happened I must conclude that the Young Earth creationist belief was correct. Earth was made in the last 10k years, so our planet wouldn't have been created, their for it was impossible to land here when our beloved and often missed bacteria astronauts flew by. I wish them the best will continue to pray for their safe voyage.

    3. Re:28 light years by chromas · · Score: 1
      Maybe they...
      • hitched a ride on someone else's ship(s)
      • floated out of the atmosphere and solar currents carried them away
      • were bigger like us but since evolved for reasons we don't yet understand
      • a fourth option
  12. oblig... by nih · · Score: 0, Funny

    found to be orbiting 61 Virginis

    now to be known as the slashdot system...

    --
    I'm a rabbit startled by the headlights of life :(
  13. Cheetos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your bringing the Cheetos right?

  14. Drake's Equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is the estimation of Drake's equation getting better now with the discovery of more plants? Does anyone have an up to date estimate?

    1. Re:Drake's Equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the principle problem remains: we can just *barely* see these planets, 28 lightyears away (the galaxy is what, 10k lightyears across?) and they're several times earth's size and much closer to their sun (both of which make detection easier). We would be completely incapable of seeing an earth-sized rocky planet in the habitable zone of a star 28 lightyears away, probably incapable of seeing such a planet from 10 lightyears away, except by coincidence.

      I suppose just knowing that it doesn't take some sort of divine intervention to make a rocky planet (or, if it does, they've done it many times) is *something* but it's not much. The estimate is still "between 1 intelligent species in the galaxy and several per star".

    2. Re:Drake's Equation by reverseengineer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's more like that the Drake equation has gone from an relation where all the variables are unknown to one where about half the variables are unknown. Advances in astronomy have allowed us to refine estimates of the number of stars in the galaxy, the fraction of those stars with planets, and the age of the galaxy. Studies like those the article refers to could potentially pin a value down on the "number of planets that could potentially support life per star with planets." The very meaning of that variable, however, depends on what characteristics you would consider necessary to support life.

      From the progress of exoplanet searches so far, it does seem likely that some planets will be found that could support life in an earth-like sense (terrestrial with liquid water, at minimum). So, maybe four variables with potentially supportable estimates (and exoplanet searching is in its infancy, so that estimate will develop over time).

      But the other variables in the Drake equation? What fraction of "habitable" planets actually develop life? What fraction of those develop intelligent life? Intelligent life that sends out detectable signals into space? And what is the expected lifetime of such civilizations? Values we might assign to those variables would be pure conjecture, with our only evidence being our own anecdote of existence.

      --
      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
    3. Re:Drake's Equation by radtea · · Score: 1

      But the other variables in the Drake equation? What fraction of "habitable" planets actually develop life?

      Almost all.

      What fraction of those develop intelligent life?

      Almost none.

      The other two questions are irrelevant, because the probability of evolving specifically human-like, machine-building intelligence is so close to zero as to make everything else moot.

      Specifically human, machine-building intelligence of the kind that builds radios, writes symphonies, creates industrial civilizations are almost certainly approximately zero. We can say this because a) it only evolved in one species on Earth (as opposed to flight, the eye, swimming, etc, all of which evolved many times) and b) it confers no evolutionary benefit until you actually get around to building civilizations, so it must be an accidental capability selected for by some other process.

      The current best theory is that human intelligence is a kind of peacock's tail: a functionally useless display mechanism that was created by the accidents of a "race to the bottom" during the process of sexual selection. As such, the evolution of specifically human, machine-building intelligence of the kind likely to be detectable at interstellar distances is arbitrarily close to zero, to the extent that we may be the only species in the universe with that capability (which suggests we might want to take better care of ourselves...)

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    4. Re:Drake's Equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree, sir. There's a strong probability that once one human-like, machine-building intelligence evolves, it becomes impossible for other such to evolve on the same planet. Consider the present-day whereabouts of the Neanderthal. Also, intelligence confers a huge personal advantage to any social creature, and even the most primitive technology confers a significantly increased chance of survival for the group using it.

      - fractoid, who is an ac, who has mod points

    5. Re:Drake's Equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the other variables in the Drake equation? What fraction of "habitable" planets actually develop life?

      Almost all.

      What fraction of those develop intelligent life?

      Almost none.

      Whoa. And I thought these questions were difficult!

    6. Re:Drake's Equation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree, sir. There's a strong probability that once one human-like, machine-building intelligence evolves, it becomes impossible for other such to evolve on the same planet. Consider the present-day whereabouts of the Neanderthal. Also, intelligence confers a huge personal advantage to any social creature, and even the most primitive technology confers a significantly increased chance of survival for the group using it.

      - fractoid, who is an ac, who has mod points

      Exactly, there wasn't always one species with intelligence approaching human levels on this planet. In fact up until only 50,000 years ago there were at least three, and possibly four, distinct species of intelligent, socially sophisticated, fire starting, tool-using humans (Us, Neanderthals, remnant populations of H. Erectus, and maybe the "Hobbits" of Flores Island, if they don't turn out to be a weird sub-species of H. Erectus or H. Sapien). I don't think our anatomically modern ancestors intentionally drove the other humans into extinction, but the different types of humans were all basically competing for the exact same natural resources. On the contrary, our ancestors were simply the ones with a better combination of skills and abilities and thus out competed the rest. If one or more of the other species had survived in our ancestors stead, there would likely still be a machine-building intelligent human species, just one somewhat different than us.

      The only possible way I could see more than one sapient species co-exist long enough to become technological would be if they were originally from drastically different parts of the planet, so each could develop advanced tool use and perhaps other forms of technology before there is much direct contact or competition for resources. Even then these would have to be far removed, as intelligence at this level allows a species to move into new climates and biomes fairly fairly easily. Thus the most probable would be one dwelling on land and the other be completely or primarily aquatic. Such a thing is possible, because while marine vertebrates on Earth lack manipulating limbs on other planets that might be different, alternatively both arthropods and cephalopods have limbs that could develop fine manipulation. I still am uncertain how a largely aquatic creature would be able to develop metal-working technology though (not having fire), and unless the land dwelling species shows them far more consideration than we've historically shown to more primitive cultures in our own species, this could be a potentially fatal limitation.

  15. The 'verse by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    We've found it. Get started on Artificial Gravity and Terraforming tech so we can use it when we fill up Earth that was.

    1. Re:The 'verse by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      Let's start with FTL or at least relativistic-speed conventional propulsion instead.

      If we have FTL travel, finding a habitable planet becomes a fairly trivial task.

    2. Re:The 'verse by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I don't know about "trivial" but certainly a lot more realistic. Remember, even with a ship capable of traveling 1c, it would take 28 years to get to 61 Virginis to check it out close-up to see if there's anything habitable there. Sure, the people inside would only age a few months or less, but the rest of us here on Earth waiting for word on what's in this system would have to wait 56 years, unless they develop some type of communications technology allowing for communications much faster than c (in which case, we're still stuck waiting 28 years).

      Chances are there's nothing there that's habitable (after all, out of 8 planets (11 counting planetoids) in our own system, only one is habitable by us, and chances that something habitable to us are in any given star system are pretty remote), so they'd need to continue on to another star system and check that one out, and so forth. They'll probably have to search a few dozen stars before finding a promising planet. That probably adds up to many hundreds of years of travel, just to find a place to establish a colony.

      Now, if we could travel at 10x, 100x, or 1000x lightspeed, then the human diaspora could commence relatively soon.

    3. Re:The 'verse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's start with adapting ourselves to space first. If we can survive in space for long periods/indefinitely, we don't need planets anymore, just energy + mass to make stuff from.

  16. What about... by tekproxy2 · · Score: 1

    How far away are we from discovering Rainbow Worlds? Those have much more minerals and would make the ~30 light year trip more worth it.

    1. Re:What about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus their locations are very valuable to the Melnorme.

    2. Re:What about... by NCG_Mike · · Score: 1

      I had Rainbow Worlds on my old Commodore 64... guess it's already been discovered.

  17. hold on now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you aren't thinking it all the way through...
    the other half of the acceleration necessary to get somewhere is the deceleration necessary to stay.
    If you do reach a speed which will get you there in a "reasonable" timeframe
    you better prepare to jump out when you arrive because you will be going so fast your spaceship will not be able to stop or even linger.
    your window of opportunity for doing something when you arrive will be hours/minutes at best.

    Unless, of course, you spend half of the trip decelerating which tends to make it a longer trip then you were thinking in the first place.

    The New Horizons Mission to Pluto using gravity assists will take 9 years to arrive. but will have only a couple of days once it gets there due to it's speed.

  18. Super Earths? by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

    How can they tell that they are "Super" Earths? Are they wearing a big "S"?

    I would assume that they are 3/4 covered with water, and have a large diversity of living creatures wandering about. Otherwise, how can you compare these planets to Earth? Thats like saying a toilet is just like a box of cookies, except that they're made from different materials, are different sizes, used for a different purposes, and look nothing alike.

    --
    Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    1. Re:Super Earths? by sznupi · · Score: 1
      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  19. Duh! by denzacar · · Score: 1

    And if so, why don't we see any evidence of these great astronaut bacteria today?

    Because that bacteria killed off all of the dinosaurs who then fell down on them crushing the bacteria.

    Bacteria are really tiny, you know, and dinosaurs were really big.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    1. Re:Duh! by girlintraining · · Score: 1, Informative

      Bacteria are really tiny, you know, and dinosaurs were really big.

      And you're the result of millions of years of evolution since then? I'm disappointed.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
  20. blast off to awaiting Virginis by icepick72 · · Score: 1

    If they had be found to be orbiting 72 Virginis then a certain religious theory might have become more feasible. But no ...still pending evidence.

  21. 72-Virginis by sanman2 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Osama Bin Laden may be hiding in neighboring star system, 72-Virginis

    1. Re:72-Virginis by Sanat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You misunderstand... that one virgin 72 years old

      Wait until Osama Bin Laden finds THAT out!

      --
      And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
    2. Re:72-Virginis by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      what till he finds out all the virgins in paradise were all porked out thousands of years ago, what the faithful get now is refurbished virgins. Kind of like retreads on a truck tire.

    3. Re:72-Virginis by Brad1138 · · Score: 1

      Do we really think O B L believes there are 72 virgins waiting for him? He is insane and/or VERY misguided, but is he also that stupid? And who really wants 72 Virgins anyway? 72 experienced, some what inebriated, college age hotties sounds a lot better to me (also a guaranty of them being female).

      --
      If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    4. Re:72-Virginis by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      I have no objection to Bin Laden ending up with 72 virgins, as long as they're all nuns. With shotguns.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    5. Re:72-Virginis by bronney · · Score: 1

      Word... fuck the virgins!!! (excuse the pun)..

  22. Bowl of petunias, anyone? by Sleeper+Service · · Score: 1

    According to The Times, it was actually a number of new _plants_ discovered near this "neighbouring" star (neighbours 27 light-years away? I should be so lucky). They were apparently accompanied by a slightly surprised looking whale.

  23. Ummm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it just me or does that strike anyone else as an astounding deduction?

    Maybe Im just ignorant, but it seems to me that detecting 2 low-mass planets out of all the planets within ~30 light years, and then going on to say "These detections indicate that low-mass planets are quite common around nearby stars" is a little crazy.

  24. Mr Shatner! by syousef · · Score: 1

    I've always had a thing for blue skinned alien girls.

    Mr Shatner, I didn't realise you were a slashdot user! Nice to talk to you! Please don't write any more Star Trek films though. Star Trek V was enough.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  25. Oh, so you're an FBI agent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > of course since it's the internet, I'm actually a 12/f/CA.

    Really?? You work for the FBI!?

  26. "size" = mass by kryptKnight · · Score: 1

    From the article, these planets are between 5 and 25 times as massive as the Earth. These planets are notable because they orbit a star that is about the same temperature and mass as the Sun, the planets themselves are of unknown composition.

    --
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -Aldous Huxley
    1. Re:"size" = mass by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Here in our solar system, we don't have any representative of a planet larger than Earth but smaller than a gas giant. Uranus's mass is about 15 times that of Earth. It would be interesting to see planets that are between about 2 and 10 times as massive as Earth. At what point does it become a gas giant (no solid surface), and what happens to the atmosphere if it's close to the star, as these discoveries seem to be.

      I've read speculation that such "super Earth" planets are likely water-worlds with no solid land. Uranus may also have different "liquid boundary layers", so the definition cutoffs may be mucky here (and you thot Pluto caused a stir).

      And further, such a planet may be volcanically pretty active. Earth's volcanoes are active enough to possibly be responsible for some of the mass extinctions at their worse. If it was larger, those kinds of problems may be more frequent. Earth has largely "cooled off", but a bigger planet would take longer to cool. (Mars cooled off in roughly a billion years because it's small and is now long dead according to current models.)
                   

    2. Re:"size" = mass by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Geological activity on Earth isn't a hindrance for organic life, it's crucial for it. Keeps the carbon cycle going, maintains strong magnetic field which protects the atmosphere.

      As a matter of fact, some researchers speculate that Earth is a borderline small planet for life: http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2008/pr200802.html

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    3. Re:"size" = mass by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      For small life perhaps, but too many eruptions could keep wiping out the more complex multi-cellular life-forms, which are more sensitive to environmental turmoil. The biggest extinction event (long before the dino-roid) killed off roughly 90% of all multi-cellular species, and is thought to be volcano-related. If we had one of those every few million years, nothing large could get established.

    4. Re:"size" = mass by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Perhaps. OTOH Siberian Traps (I assume you're referring to this) wasn't exactly a volcanic event per se, more like massive resurfacing; something which happens to Venus on a global scale from time to time, exactly what happens when you don't have very active plate tectonics that is able to vent the energy continuously.

      And I imagine that life is perfectly capable of adopting to the latter. Rapid global changes, that's the real problem for life.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  27. Great - more planets to pollute by nickull · · Score: 1

    I wonder if this would make some (clearly stupid) people feel that they can now safely disregard looking after the earth with the comfort of a bigger and newer planet so close by? duane chaos "chaos is not just a theory!"

    --
    "Question everything, including this!" - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/
  28. Infant space tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I probably won't be around for it, but I'd get quite the laugh outta a human spacecraft showing up there and a superior alien race telling the travellers that they can take their freakshow on to the next planet, tyvm. They'll keep their planet for themselves and wonder what kinda irrational species heads off across interstellar space in a slower-than-light steel bucket to a 'habital planet" and not expect to find someone already inhabiting it?

    Think how far science has come in the last 200 years (horses to space shuttle). Now try to imagine where we might be in about 5 times that period (1000 years). NASA, the US space agency, is only 51 years old. Again, only 1000 years is almost 20x that period. Only an idiot would try manned interstellar travel with today's tech. Queue idiots.....

  29. Mass, not size -- summary is wrong by LionMage · · Score: 1

    Since I haven't seen anyone else mention it yet...

    "Size" and "mass" are two different things.

    Size has to do with physical dimensions, whereas mass is an intrinsic property of matter. TFA clearly states these super Earths are 5 to 7.5 times the mass of Earth, not the "size." Summary is wrong.

    1. Re:Mass, not size -- summary is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't read either but given that d=m/v and that being superEarths they would be presumably made of earth, mass is directly proportional to volume==size.

  30. When to go Visit by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

    World energy use is increasing about 2% a year. Speed of a vehicle goes as the square root of the kinetic energy. Therefore if the speed of a vehicle depends on the energy you have to throw at the problem, you can expect your spaceships to get faster about 1% a year.

    Therefore any trip over 100 years, you would expect a faster ship launched later to overtake you. So any spaceship heading for alpha Centauri (4.3 light years), you may as well wait till you have 4% of lightspeed ships or better.

    1. Re:When to go Visit by phrostie · · Score: 1

      but if you build it with the ability to engineer and modify/fabricate faster/newer engines as they go based on the real time data obtained in flight, then even without the resources of earth they should be able to increase their own speed. maybe not at the full 1%, but still.

  31. So lets dial the startgate and go there. by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    So lets dial the startgate and go there.

  32. Water in Uranus and Neptune? WRONG by mikedep333 · · Score: 1

    According to the article:
    The researchers said they cannot tell yet if HD 1461b is a scaled-up version of Earth, composed largely of rock and iron, or whether, like Uranus and Neptune, it is composed mostly of water.
    [sarcasm]Yeah, perhaps they have as much water as planetary nebulae have![/sarcasm]
    Actually, Uranus and Neptune are primarily composed of hydrogen, just like the other 2 gas planets. Uranus and Neptune appear blue because of their methane, not water!

  33. 61 Viginis by belthize · · Score: 1

          Relatively geeky crowd, orbiting dead cat, Contact.

  34. On those super-earth... by mathfeel · · Score: 1

    are there any superman?

    --
    The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't
    1. Re:On those super-earth... by sznupi · · Score: 1

      If any would have comparable biosphere and civilization to ours - yeah, pretty much; all thanks to higher gravity and atmospheric pressure.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  35. Ahh there's something special about that star... by nilbog · · Score: 1

    61 virginis. I'm pretty sure that's where you go after you jihad. Let's steer clear of that one when we start flying around the universe.

    --
    or else!
  36. They'll arrive to find . . . by kickassweb · · Score: 1

    The ocean full of used condoms, empty water bottles and bits of rubber duckies, and the smog so thick over land that it looks just like . . . HOME.

    --
    I'd love to change the world but I can't find the source code.
  37. What about the opposite of Matter by Yergle143 · · Score: 1

    Possible specific impulse for an antimatter based star ship?

    http://www.engr.psu.edu/antimatter/introduction.html

    10^3 - 10^6 s.

    And don't get me started that we don't have any. I've hatched a secret
    plan to use that high intensity solar energy at a facility orbiting the sun
    inside the orbit of mercury to power my accelerators. Sure it may
      take my 50 years or so to make enough to launch a mission but, what
    the hey, that's a lot better than traveling the slow way. You have to
    take the long view. (Oh yeah the crew will be stored eggs and revived,
    raised, and educated on site by robots to save on mass)

    Shhh. Don't tell anyone.

  38. I think there may be a faster way to 61 Virgins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I seem to remember hearing about a kind of death where one gets more than 61 Virgins....

  39. Several virgins orbiting...... by genner · · Score: 1

    Several virgins orbiting one overweight heavenly body.
    Sounds like they found the one cosplay chick at the convetion who'se still single.

  40. Talking about... ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vinea?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinea

  41. Names for extra solar planets? by masehare · · Score: 1

    So, are the scientists who make the discoveries able to identify the same planets again at a later stage? Then they could possibly start naming planets.

  42. Re:Water in Uranus and Neptune? RIGHT by sznupi · · Score: 1

    Uranus and Neptune are primarily composed of hydrogen in the same way Earth is primarily composed of nitrogen.

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  43. super earths? by kuei12 · · Score: 1

    Does "super earths" mean they have better weapons?

  44. first contact by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    I can't wait for our first contact, it may be bad, or good, but we sure will prove that there is life out there besides our own.

  45. Re:Water in Uranus and Neptune? RIGHT by mikedep333 · · Score: 1

    Hydrogen != water.
    They are WRONG, not RIGHT.
    Earth's atmosphere is indeed primarily composed of nitrogen, but that is quite a bold claim to say that that Earth as a whole is primarily composed of Nitrogen. I am under the impression that the metallic rock in the core and the mantle is much greater than the nitrogen, both in terms of volume and mass. Where did you read that earth as a whole is primarily composed of nitrogen? The Australian museum says:
    The overall composition of the Earth is very similar to that of meteorites, and because of this, it is thought that the Earth originally formed from Planetesimals composed largely of metallic iron and silicates.

  46. And yet you did that for Uranus and Neptune... by sznupi · · Score: 1

    ...what you think I did for Earth. You totally ignored their internal composition.

    Yes, their atmospheres are composed primarily of hydrogen. Yes, there is no sharp boundary, whatever. Crust is largely from water ice (or "ice"), and it constitutes most of the planet mass.

    Yes, what you did is equivalent to saying that Earth is composed mostly from nitrogen.

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  47. 28 light years? by Scarumanga · · Score: 1

    Well really 28 light years isn't really that far. With our current technology yeah we can forget ever getting there. This is why is important for research to be put back into Project Orion, that would give us the ability to at the very least send machines into deep space, we have the stockpiles of nuclear weapons to do this with. The technology has been tested with regular explosives back in the 50's and works. But treaties where signed to ban the detonation of nuclear weapons in the atmosphere and space. So we will have to wait until antimatter propulsion methods have been developed. Until then they should work on making massive telescopes that can take HD pictures of the planets surface 28 light years away.